Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1642

 1                           Tuesday, 30 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Stanisic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 7     you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-03-69-T, the

10     Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             The Chamber has received a report dated the 30th of June, 2009, a

13     report by the reporting medical officer, Dr. Eekhof.  Under paragraph 5,

14     I read that in the opinion of Dr. Eekhof, Mr. Stanisic's health problems

15     remain unchanged.  I'm not going through the details, when we could

16     detect smaller or minor changes in the way they are described.

17             We have a report by the principal officer Den Dekker [phoen],

18     from the United Nations Detention Unit, in which he reports on his

19     communication with Mr. Stanisic this morning.  We have received a form,

20     absence from court due to illness, in which Mr. Stanisic expresses that

21     he is unable to attend court today due to illness, that he has discussed

22     the matter with counsel, and that he does not waive his right to be

23     present.

24             Finally, there is a UN -- United Nations Detention Unit Medical

25     Service questionnaire filled in by and signed by Dr. Eekhof in which four

Page 1643

 1     items are crossed.  The first is that he has examined Mr. Stanisic today;

 2     the second that he has no observable symptoms with which he can judge

 3     whether he's unwell to attend court; that it is his assessment that

 4     Mr. Stanisic require zero days absent before he should be fit to attend

 5     court once more; and that the medical officer will see the detainee

 6     during his next visit.

 7             On the basis of this information, the Chamber is inclined to

 8     decide that we should proceed.  If there's anything which has not been

 9     raised yesterday in more general terms, anything that makes significant

10     change, parties are invited to bring it to our attention.

11             I do not see any wish expressed in that respect, which means that

12     the Chamber decides that we'll continue.  That means that for

13     Witness C-015, we will further hear the testimony of this witness with

14     the protective measures.

15             Mr. Knoops, you are about to cross-examine the witness.  Do we

16     have to go into private session right away, or could we start in open

17     session?

18             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, I have at the start of the

19     cross-examination a few questions which might be dealt with in closed

20     session.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We turn into closed session, and may the

22     witness be brought into the courtroom.

23                           [Closed session]

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 3                           [Open session]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We're now back in open session, Witness C-015.

 5             MR. KNOOPS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness --

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             MR. KNOOPS:

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you agree with me that in times of armed conflict

11     the TO became part of the army, the JNA?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you agree that the TO thus became subordinated to the JNA?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you agree with me that with respect to Serb volunteers, they

16     became subordinated to the JNA as well?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you agree with me that in the period of 1990, 1992, the

19     territory of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem was under

20     control of the JNA?

21        A.   No, not in 1990.

22        Q.   In your estimation, was there any other time period you could

23     point us to where the JNA was exercising control over the territory of

24     Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

25        A.   Yes, in 1991.

Page 1657

 1        Q.   What about 1992?

 2        A.   Yes, until the recognition of Croatia.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, from -- you agree with me that from May until

 4     December 1991, an armed conflict existed in Eastern Slavonia, Baranja,

 5     and Western Srem, and that on the Serb side the commander authority was

 6     exercised by the Novi Sad Corps and the 1st Army of the JNA?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, this is a composite question asking to

 8     some extent for a legal opinion and to some extent for facts.  Could you

 9     please split them up.

10             MR. KNOOPS:

11        Q.   Mr. Witness --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And I don't know if we should ask this witness any

13     legal opinion about the existence of an armed conflict.  Of course, you

14     could ask him about facts which you might consider useful for any

15     determination by this Chamber that an armed conflict did exist.

16             MR. KNOOPS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Mr. Witness, are you aware that in the period of May, December

18     1991, the Novi Sad Corps was present on the territory of

19     Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

20        A.   Yes.  The Novi Sad Corps and Badza, who was the commander of the

21     TO of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

22        Q.   Sorry, I didn't get the translation.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I did get a translation, and it is reflected in the

24     transcript on your screen, lines 13 and 14.

25             MR. KNOOPS:

Page 1658

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Are you aware of the presence of the

 2     1st Army of the JNA on the territory of Slavonia, Baranja, and

 3     Western Srem in the time of May, December 1991?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Are you aware whether one of the two -- one of these two corps

 6     exercised any influence on the territory?

 7        A.   I told you, but maybe you weren't following.  Yes, but Badza did

 8     as well.  He came, and he was the commander of the Slavonia, Baranja, and

 9     Western Srem force.  So he was in command of the TO, if you were

10     following my report.  And it says in the statement where we were invited

11     for the meeting when he told us that as of that day he was the commander

12     of the Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem TO.  But it's true that the

13     JNA was there and that the Novi Sad Corps was also in that area, yes.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Do you know whether Mr. Hadzic.  Was in

15     close contact with the JNA among which the commander of the Osijek

16     Barrack, the JNA colonel, Bora Ivanovic?

17        A.   Yes, you heard that correctly, but I don't know if he was with

18     him.  He wasn't in my area.  The Novi Sad Corps was in my area.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Is it true, Mr. Witness, that the JNA

20     took care of the equipment, supplies, and weapons for the TO at the

21     training camp, Erdut?

22        A.   For a while, yes.  Everybody wanted to be in Erdut.  Everybody

23     did their best to get there.  It was only one kilometre away from the

24     border, so it was used by the JNA, by Arkan, by the special forces, and

25     also the Krajina army was there for three days.  So everyone actually

Page 1659

 1     passed through that TO centre.

 2        Q.   You speak about "for a while."  Can you please indicate what you

 3     exactly mean with "for a while"?

 4        A.   When they came in 1991, when they crossed the bridge.  It was a

 5     military facility and everything else that you've said so far.  You know

 6     that when the army came, the commander, when the forces entered said, As

 7     of today you are under the command of the JNA.  All TO units are

 8     mobilised under the commander of the TO [as interpreted].

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Are you familiar with the fact whether

10     the JNA was also responsible for the distribution of the equipment,

11     supplies, and weapons?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Under the commander

13     of the JNA.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the uniforms, we all were

15     subject to this command, and all the men who were fit for duty had former

16     JN uniforms at home, and we received weapons according to our speciality.

17     So the answer is yes.

18             MR. KNOOPS:

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, you just mentioned the name of Badza, and in your

20     statement you say he arrived in Vukovar region together with the JNA.

21     Could you please clarify that?

22        A.   No, not the Vukovar area.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, could you -- if you refer to the

24     statement, always assist the Chamber in referring to pages and -- and

25     there are two statements, so we --

Page 1660

 1             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes.  Apologies.  It's the first statement of 13 May

 2     1999, page 3, third alinea, first sentence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just see.  Third full paragraph?

 4             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes, Your Honour, third full paragraph, first line

 5     starting with "As far as I know."

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  Would you please put your question

 7     to the witness.

 8             MR. KNOOPS:

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your first statement to the investigator you

10     stated:

11             "As far as I know, Radovan Stojicic, also known as Badza arrived

12     in the Vukovar region together with the JNA."

13             Is this a correct statement?

14        A.   No, not the Vukovar region.  He first came to Dalj.  Three days

15     after the JNA entered he came to Dalj, then he went to Erdut, and then we

16     were invited to this meeting.  And you'll probably ask me more about

17     that.  So it's not the Vukovar area but Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and

18     Western Srem.

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, did Mr. Stojicic tell you to follow instructions

20     given by the JNA commanders?

21        A.   I don't know which Stojic you're talking about.

22        Q.   The person mentioned in this alinea I just paraphrased, Badza.

23        A.   Radovan Stojicic.  Stojicic and Stojic are two different

24     surnames.

25             We were invited, as I explained.  When the war began, we were

Page 1661

 1     automatically the commanders of these TO units.  We were summoned to

 2     Erdut, and he told us, as of today, you will no longer be coming to the

 3     meetings.  You deal with the politics and the establishment of the

 4     civilian authority.  From today onwards, the meetings will be attended by

 5     TO members of the defence.

 6             That is what I recall.  That is the first and last meeting with

 7     him.  Later, another colleague of mine would go.  He was also a commander

 8     of the defence.

 9        Q.   Apologies for pronouncing the name of Badza wrongly, but my

10     question is, Mr. Witness, whether it's correct that he told you to follow

11     instructions given by JNA commanders.  Could you answer that with yes or

12     no, please.

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Witness, is it correct that at that time there

15     was only one person left from the ministry of internal affairs?

16        A.   I didn't get the interpretation.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your question so that it

18     will be interpreted, Mr. -- and see whether's no technical problem.

19             MR. KNOOPS:

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, at the time you met Badza, was it so that there was

21     only one officer left from the Ministry of Internal Affairs in that area?

22        A.   You mean with Badza?

23        Q.   In general, in the region.

24        A.   I can see that you're not really well-versed.  You don't know

25     what the structure was, but I will try to explain.

Page 1662

 1             In the axis or along the axis where I was, Badza was not in

 2     command or anyone else other than the JNA.  Do you understand?  This is

 3     along the Drava and Danube Rivers towards Osijek.

 4             I hope this is a satisfactory answer.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness, it is.  May I please then draw the

 6     attention to your first statement.  It's page 4, the fifth alinea --

 7     sorry, the fourth alinea, eighth and ninth line.

 8             Mr. Witness, I will read the sentence I refer to, and I ask you

 9     to clarify that sentence for me.  You testified -- or you stated to the

10     investigators in 1999:

11              "After that, all the police officials in the regions were people

12     whose origins were from Croatia.  Veljko Bogunovic was the last MUP

13     officer that I know of who was left in the area at that time."

14             So my question is:  Is it correct that this person was the last

15     MUP officer --

16             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Hoffmann.

18             MR. HOFFMANN:  I'm just having difficulties to find the exact

19     reference.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It's because it's in the third full paragraph

21     instead of the fourth, because the first paragraph is not -- and that's

22     apparently where Mr. Knoops quoted from.

23             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Knoops.

25             MR. KNOOPS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1663

 1        Q.   So, Mr. Witness, is it correct that there was only one MUP

 2     officer with that name left in the region at that time?

 3        A.   Mr. President, to make it easier, the gentleman has skipped the

 4     whole war.  He has gone to the time when -- when Croatia was already

 5     recognised, when the army had withdrawn, when the police forces had

 6     withdrawn.

 7             Yes, only those who were born in the territory of the Republic of

 8     the Serbian Krajina or the territory of Croatia remained, who happened to

 9     be ethnic Serbs.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Witness, do you agree with the Defence that Arkan

11     was a Serb volunteer?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Are you familiar that he was registered as such by Mr. Kojic and

14     put under TO command?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Are you aware that Arkan accepted to wear the signs of the TO?

17        A.   Yes, yes.  I know that.

18        Q.   Do you agree with me that Arkan, as such, was subordinated to the

19     TO?

20        A.   On paper, yes, but physically, actually, no.  Nobody could order

21     him.

22        Q.   Could you please explain what you mean with "nobody could order

23     him"?

24        A.   When the refugees from Western Slavonia came to Aljmas, for

25     example, he arrested all the Serbs who were not armed.  He took them to

Page 1664

 1     the centre.  He gave them haircuts and put them through training without

 2     authorisation from anyone.  But when you say Kojic, I think you're

 3     thinking of Mrgud, actually, that he had placed him under the

 4     subordination of the TO; but actually, nobody was in charge, but

 5     Milan Milanovic was in the TO.

 6        Q.   Do you know whether Arkan was engaged in military operations?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And do you agree, then, when he was engaged in military

 9     operations he was under the operational command of the JNA?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Is it correct that the commander of the Novi Sad Corps at that

12     time was General Biorcevic?

13        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't get the interpretation of the first and last

14     name.

15             No.  Andrija Biorcevic.  I can help you, if that's who you mean.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Witness, is it correct that, when under control

17     of the JNA, this related to the 12th Novi Sad Corps?  In other words, was

18     Arkan and his unit, during combat, under the control of the

19     12th Novi Sad Corps?

20        A.   To tell you the truth, he would go always where the situation was

21     the most difficult, with his people.  The general deployed him to the

22     most difficult places where combat was going on.

23        Q.   Is it correct that Arkan took part in operations under the

24     command of the JNA Colonel Boro Ivanovic, the commander of the Osijek

25     barrack in June, July 1991?

Page 1665

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You testified yesterday that Arkan and the JNA were getting along

 3     with each other.  Do you agree with me that it was more than just getting

 4     along with the JNA?

 5        A.   Well, I -- Andrija Biorcevic was there.  He obeyed the commands.

 6     After Andrija Biorcevic left, he no longer complied with any commands.

 7     He actually behaved the way it suited him, but he did go to wherever he

 8     was ordered to go.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you agree that Arkan's units remained under TO

10     command until 1993, when it left the Krajina?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Could you please explain why you don't agree with this comment of

13     the Defence?

14        A.   In 1992, Croatia was recognised.  United Nations forces were

15     deployed in our territory.  At that time, we did not have the TO.

16     According to the signed agreement, we could only have police forces.

17             He took all -- he actually painted blue all his vehicles and

18     uniforms, and he -- they had the insignia of the Krajina militia, of the

19     Krajina police force.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops.  Could we clarify who is meant by "he

22     took all -- he actually painted blue"?

23             Were you referring to Arkan?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

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17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. KNOOPS:  Mr. Witness, you just testified that you have, to

21     some extent, knowledge on the organisation of Arkan's unit.  Do you know

22     how -- I'll put it differently.

23             Is it correct, Mr. Witness, that Arkan's unit was supplied with

24     food and finances by its social enterprise Dalj?  Is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1668

 1        Q.   Do you know that from hearsay, or do you know that first-hand?

 2        A.   From hearsay, second-hand.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, is it correct that the unit of Arkan used its own

 4     licence plates on cars?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Is it correct that these licence plates started with the numbers

 7     900?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, I doubt -- I'm going to move to -- no,

10     sorry, I can deal with that in open session.

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, is it correct that the Erdut training centre

12     belonged to the people's Defence, abbreviation, NO, of Osijek?

13        A.   It was the JNA's.  In Osijek, students would also come for

14     training -- or from Osijek, students would also come for training, so

15     probably, if we are talking about 1991, then it was the JNA.  Later,

16     after the Yugoslav Army had disintegrated, it probably was no longer in

17     their ownership.

18        Q.   Is it correct that the TO took over the camp on the 1st August

19     1991?

20        A.   I have said, and it is so stated in my statement, that we first

21     took the equipment, the armaments that were there.  I was within the

22     Novi Sad Corps, so I have no idea what was happening there.  They

23     explained to us that there was -- there were troops on our axis, and we

24     were all mobilised.  And I went there when the representatives of the

25     OSCE came.  I went there for talks with the Croatian side.

Page 1669

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, were you familiar with any form of internal fights,

 2     power struggles, between Arkan and Mr. Hadzic?

 3        A.   If we are talking about 1991, while I was still there, I don't

 4     know what happened between the two of them.  When we had that first

 5     government, the prime minister of which was Hadzic.  I don't know what

 6     happened then, because I only arrived there two years later after all

 7     that had changed.

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your first statement, page 5, the second full

 9     alinea, you say:

10              "At that time," that was 1992, "there was a power struggle

11     between Goran Hadzic and his group.  For example, from Borovika,

12     Ilija Kostic [sic], minister of police; and Arkan and his supporters, for

13     example, Mrgud, Lunj [phoen], also known as Boko.

14        A.   This was not in 1991.

15        Q.   I mentioned 1992.

16        A.   Nor in 1992.

17        Q.   So there was no power struggle?

18        A.   Yes, there was, but not at that time.

19        Q.   At what time was there a power struggle?

20        A.   When the army left, towards the end of 1992 and in early 1993.

21             If I could ask for permission for us to move into closed session,

22     and then I could continue, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into closed session.

24                           [Closed session]

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16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19             Could -- we'll have a break, Witness C-015.

20             Could the witness already be escorted out of the courtroom.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, the Chamber will grant you the

23     15 minutes you requested.  At the same time, I've consulted with my

24     colleagues.  It's not entirely clear, as a matter of fact, in what

25     direction your cross-examination is going.  Is it -- are you challenging

Page 1679

 1     the reliability, the credibility of the witness, or is it -- it's rather

 2     unclear to us.  Or would you say he's associated, one way or another,

 3     with Arkan so, therefore, he should not be believed.  It's unclear to us,

 4     as a matter of fact, where you're heading for.  Is there any way that you

 5     could assist us in better understanding the course of your

 6     cross-examination?

 7             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, we are putting several portions of our

 8     pre-trial brief to the -- to the witness, and we're not suggesting that

 9     the witness is a priori unreliable.  But I think it's fair that the

10     witness is also confronted with the elements which may be damaging for

11     him.  At this moment, we're not saying that he should be not believed,

12     but we believe he should have a fair chance to comment on all of the

13     documents which are in the file released by the Prosecution.

14             Secondly --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But why would he be -- it seems to be rather far

16     away from the examination-in-chief, isn't it?  I mean, I hope that you're

17     not going to put to every witness everything that is disclosed by the

18     Prosecution, to hear his comments on whether he agrees or does not agree.

19             Let's treat a witness with the relevant -- the necessary focus.

20     That is, the witness is called by the Prosecution.  Of course, if he has

21     some specific knowledge that would support your case, then, of course,

22     you could, in cross-examination, put questions to him under Rule 90(H) as

23     well; but, of course, the primary focus is to challenge the content of

24     what he said, to challenge the substance of his testimony as it was given

25     in chief, or to challenge his credibility or reliability, and a third

Page 1680

 1     element could be that if this witness has any specific knowledge that

 2     would support your case, not to say that he would have to review all the

 3     documents that were disclosed to you and see whether he challenges them

 4     or does not challenge them, because it would be a long case if that would

 5     be the general approach.

 6             Therefore, I said before I made these critical comments that the

 7     Chamber granted you the 15 minutes.  In future decisions granting time,

 8     please keep in mind that this is what the Chamber expects a

 9     cross-examining party to do.  You have that 15 minutes on from 20 minutes

10     past 4.00.  We have a break until then.

11                           --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13                           --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, you may proceed.

15             MR. KNOOPS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you agree that you do not have direct knowledge

17     and any Red Beret units in 1991, 1992?

18        A.   I do not agree.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure she heard the

20     answer correctly.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the gist of your answer that you do not agree

22     that you have no direct knowledge of Red Beret units in 1991, 1992?  Do

23     you have any knowledge, any direct knowledge; or do you not have any

24     direct knowledge?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I never met them in my area.

Page 1681

 1             MR. KNOOPS:

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, are you familiar with the fact that in

 3     Eastern Slavonia, in the time-frame 1991/1992, red berets were worn by

 4     the military policemen of the JNA in Ilok?

 5        A.   Yes, I'm aware of that.

 6        Q.   Are you aware that red berets were worn by the reserve units of

 7     the JNA in Eastern Slavonia in that time?

 8        A.   Yes, there was one in Aljmas, under the command of Captain Kole.

 9        Q.   And is it correct also that the TO units in Eastern Slavonia wore

10     red berets?

11        A.   After the army had left, when the Army of the Republic of the

12     Serbian Krajina was set up, we did have a special unit within our own

13     composition, the Red Berets.

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you agree with the Defence that in that time the

15     use of uniforms or military insignia were misused by individuals?

16        A.   Yes, you're right.  We actually fought over these different

17     uniforms.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, it appears that the transcript -- I

19     think you said that there were abused or did I misunderstand you.

20             MR. KNOOPS:  Misuse.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Misuse or abused.

22             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Misused by individuals, and that's what the witness

24     answered to.  Yes.

25             Please proceed.

Page 1682

 1             MR. KNOOPS:

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, is it correct that Mr. Hadzic, Goran Hadzic, stopped

 3     an investigation towards him and his -- his former unity, Sekuritet in

 4     1992 which was set up by a local DB unit, Mr. Kojic?

 5        A.   Yes, I had occasion to see that document.  It was by

 6     Vladimir Dzuro, an investigator of The Hague, so I read through it.  It's

 7     he about the financing of his police, and we used to call them the

 8     universe police, the outer space police.

 9        Q.   And what was the reason that Mr. Hadzic was preventing the DB

10     from investigating himself and his organisation, the Sekuritet?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, in view of the answer given to your last

12     question, we should clearly distinguish between what the witness learned,

13     apparently, from a document that was shown to him and what he knows from

14     his own observation.  Could you please make that distinction.

15             MR. KNOOPS:  Thank you, Your Honour, I will.

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you have direct knowledge, apart from the

17     document you saw, about the reason why Mr. Hadzic was preventing this

18     investigation?

19        A.   No of the all I can say is that it's about financing.  He's the

20     one who signed the financing.  I assumed that was the reason.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your second statement, page 3, it's the second

22     and third line from above, you say:

23              "I recall that Goran Hadzic did not want this investigation to

24     proceed, and he stopped it.  He maintained that those people were loyal

25     to him during the war.  He trusted them and some of them were his

Page 1683

 1     friends."

 2             Is this a correct statement you gave to the investigator?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, my final questions relate to your --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, did this -- this ask for a further

 6     exploration.

 7             Earlier you were asked about Goran Hadzic stopping a further

 8     investigation.  Then you were asked whether you had any personal

 9     knowledge.  You apparently said no, but you referred to a document which

10     you had seen.

11             Now, this part of your statement that he did not want this

12     investigation to proceed and that he stopped it, and that he maintained

13     that those people were loyal to him during the war and that he trusted

14     them, some of them being his friends.  How do you know?  From what source

15     do you know that these were the reasons for Mr. Hadzic to stop further

16     investigations?  How did you learn it?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I read the document,

18     and it says in it that his best man, the best man of Goran Hadzic,

19     Stevan Bogic, Jajo, is asking for 200 million dinars to finance that

20     police.  I don't have another source.  This is my assumption, that it's

21     about money.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was my question, what the source of this

23     portion of your statement was.  You have answered that question.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Knoops.

25             MR. KNOOPS:  Thank you.

Page 1684

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, my final questions relate to the person of

 2     Mr. Stanisic.  If I recall well, you testified yesterday that you only

 3     saw him at in total three occasions; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Is it fair to say that you don't know anything about his role or

 6     position?

 7        A.   I also told the investigators that I met the man.  I described it

 8     in my statement how I saw him.  I don't have anything else to add.

 9        Q.   Do you have any direct knowledge on your statement of yesterday

10     in which you say that Mr. Martic qualified Mr. Stanisic as his only

11     commander?

12        A.   I just referred back to what he said.  I quoted what he said in

13     Knin.  I mean, I said that when I provided my statement, and that's how

14     it was.

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, my final question is:  How can you explain that you

16     never stated this before in your earlier statements, while the video

17     transmission we saw yesterday do not support this remark?

18        A.   The statement confirms -- well, I asked the investigators if

19     there was any footage from the time when I was in Knin.  The investigator

20     said no.

21             I saw that with Vladimir Dzuro, and I believe that he probably

22     put away lots of footage that I saw from the funeral, many, many clips.

23     So I simply didn't wish to speak about something that I didn't have.

24        Q.   Did you ever saw or hear that Mr. Martic was taking any

25     instruction from Mr. Stanisic?

Page 1685

 1        A.   No, no.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much.

 3             MR. KNOOPS:  That concludes my cross-examination.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Knoops.

 5             Mr. Jovanovic, are you ready to cross-examine Witness C-015?

 6             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by

 8     Mr. Jovanovic.  Mr. Jovanovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

 9             You may proceed.

10             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Can we

11     move into private session, please?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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Page 1686

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Page 1691

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 9   (redacted)

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21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 1692

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Please proceed,

 2     Mr. Jovanovic.

 3             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Do you know who was Geza Farkas's superior as part of the

 5     security service of the JNA?

 6        A.   I do not know who his subordinate was.

 7        Q.   Are you familiar with the name of Aleksandar Vasiljevic?

 8        A.   Yes, and how.

 9        Q.   Tell me, how do you know him?

10        A.   Well, in the worst of terms.

11        Q.   Can you give me some details?

12        A.   I had no contacts with him myself, but everything that he did, he

13     did in a perverted way.

14        Q.   Could we again move into private session, please?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

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Page 1693

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Page 1698

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 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You said that Mrgud --

 7        A.   I did not get the translation.

 8        Q.   You said that Mrgud had or was in a way superior to us -- units

 9     in the area.  Can you say to what units?

10        A.   He began small-time.  First he had a squad of Red Berets under

11     him.  They had some special official IDs.  These were handed over to the

12     Tribunal.  Then he went on by becoming "kums" with Arkan, and then he

13     also was in charge of him, and then he personally set up the White Eagles

14     Unit under the command of Slobodan Boca.

15        Q.   This unit of Slobodan Boca, where was it based?  Where was it

16     located?

17        A.   It was located in Mirkovci, the oil fields, because whosoever

18     controlled the oil would remain boss up to this day.

19        Q.   Was there any unit in Djeletovci?  Do you know about that?

20        A.   Well, that's it.  That's the unit I'm talking about.  I say

21     Mirkovci because that's where he was headquartered, but you're quite

22     right, Djeletovci.  This is precisely there on the oil fields where the

23     bore holes were, and that's where the unit was.

24        Q.   Have you heard -- did you hear of a unit called "Skorpioni"?

25        A.   Yes, that's them.

Page 1699

 1        Q.   So am I correct in saying that Mrgud actually established them

 2     and used them?

 3        A.   I am an eyewitness to that.  You are quite right.  You're a

 4     hundred per cent right.

 5        Q.   You have no knowledge to the effect that Mrgud was in any way

 6     connected with the state security department?

 7        A.   I've told you they lied to us before.  I tried to show you

 8     exactly how this Mrgud person lied to us.  He would always say that it

 9     was for the needs of the service, but now, in this time, we can see that

10     it had nothing whatsoever to do with the service.  It was his family

11     that -- whose needs were catered for, and his estates that he had in

12     Serbia.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In your statements, in your testimony so far, you

14     spoke about Arkan and the Serbian Volunteer Guard, and I understood that

15     in the period that you were there from 1991 up to 1995, you actually

16     regularly saw them until returning from Sanski Most, as you said.

17        A.   Not in 1991.  When he came to the centre.  I told you that my

18     office was -- let me show it to you graphically.  This is my office.

19     Across from me was this camp, the training centre in Erdut that we keep

20     referring to.  That was some 150 metres away from me.  And behind me was

21     the old castle in which were Mrgud as well as Goran Hadzic.  They took

22     turns occupying the castle.  They would always want to stay in the

23     castle.

24        Q.   But the presence of this unit was visible, was it not?  In the

25     area, I mean.

Page 1700

 1        A.   It was very visible, they would run through Erdut.  Everybody

 2     could see them.

 3        Q.   Tell me, on the basis of your statement, when you spoke about the

 4     armaments, I concluded that you are familiar with weapons.  Can you tell

 5     me what kind of weapons did the Serbian Volunteer Guard have?

 6        A.   They started with infantry weapons.  These are automatic rifles.

 7     Then later when they entered Ernestinovo, then they seized a Croatian

 8     tank.  It was a T-55 tank.  They repainted it.  Then the army took it

 9     from them and said that they were not supposed to have that, but then

10     they received these infantry personnel carriers with the FAP engine.

11     Later again they had tanks, but they began with infantry weapons.

12        Q.   The personnel carriers and the tanks, what colour were they when

13     they came to Arkan's unit first?

14        A.   Well, it would come out grey -- it would come in grey and leave

15     black.  It was a large room.  It belonged to the winery there where they

16     would maintain, repair the vehicles, and this is where they would repaint

17     the SMB-coloured tanks into black.

18        Q.   Well, let's clarify.  The SMB colour is the drab olive-grey

19     colour.

20        A.   Yes.  That is the colour of the former JNA uniforms and

21     equipment.

22        Q.   We heard before from you, and I'm not going to repeat again which

23     occasion exactly this was so that we don't need to go into private

24     session again, but you referred to a member of the Arkan guard whom you

25     referred to a member of the Arkan guard, whom you refer to as Pejo Cigan

Page 1701

 1     in your statement; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You saw him?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Can you describe his physical appearance?

 6        A.   I could describe it to you.  I don't know if the Judges would

 7     understand it though.  But do you know what the Belgrade Gypsies looked

 8     like, the one that jive and sing around Belgrade?  That's what he looked

 9     like.  He was not very tall.  He was not very well wired in his

10     body-brain communication.

11        Q.   What about his skin tone, his hair colour?

12        A.   Dark, and he was -- he had a shaven head.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann.

14             MR. HOFFMANN:  I would -- I'm sorry to interrupt, but I would

15     certainly appreciate if we could have a reference if Mr. Jovanovic refers

16     to the statement.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jovanovic.

18             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  I am referring to the

19     witness's statement, to an event he described when he received --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Page, please, and --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear what he received.

22             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I can just ask to

23     return quickly to private session and then I'm going to put a question to

24     the witness and then we will clarify.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But could we not first here what page you refer to

Page 1702

 1     with your last question?  Then I'm glad to move into private session.  Is

 2     it the 1999, or the 2001?

 3             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's a statement

 4     from 1999, and it's on the last page of the English translation, second

 5     paragraph.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  And you'd prefer to go into private

 7     session, if I understood you well.

 8             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We will move into private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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Page 1703

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Page 1707

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And I would encourage you, Mr. Jovanovic, to put

10     focussed questions to the witness, to ask him what he could tell us what

11     he had not told us over the last two days.  In a certain respect -- of

12     course, then we got a long answer and something about a driver and

13     cutting oaks, et cetera.  Why not ask specific questions to a witness,

14     unless it is about the driver who married to a lady and who they were

15     cutting oaks, unless that is what you wanted to elicit from this witness

16     in -- with that question.  Is that what you wanted us to hear?

17             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are many

18     things that are not relevant.  However, I understood that this is the way

19     that the witness interprets knowledge about certain facts and that it is

20     easier for him to present his answer in this way by always providing some

21     sort of background to a specific event.  But in future, I'm going to do

22     my best to interrupt the witness in such a situation so that we could

23     save time.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it is a -- a -- it is both the answers -- the

25     questions and the answers.  If you put very focussed questions to the

Page 1708

 1     witness, and if he goes beyond what you want to ask from him, you can

 2     stop him and ask him to answer your question.  If you're interested to

 3     hear background, you can ask background; but let's try to keep focussed

 4     on what apparently is the information this witness can provide to the

 5     Chamber.  But we have a break and we resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jovanovic, please proceed and try to be as

 9     focussed as possible.

10             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your statement, you stated that Ilija Kostic [as

12     interpreted] --

13             MR. HOFFMANN:  It's just a question.  I think we're still in

14     private session.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we moved into open session before we had the

16     break, and that's what I see confirmed on my screen as well.  Therefore,

17     we are not in private session any more.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Jovanovic.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours we moved into open session at page

20     64, line 18 of the transcript.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22             Please proceed.  Next time when a phone rings, it's at risk of

23     being seized.  I know Judges who have a large collection of mobile

24     phones.  I have none yet.

25             Please proceed.

Page 1709

 1             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your statement, you stated that Ilija Kojic had

 3     set up a DB state security unit.  Am I right if I say that this was the

 4     DB of Krajina?

 5        A.   Yes, you are right.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann, I take it that you want to invite

 7     Mr. Jovanovic always to refer to the page and the statement he's

 8     referring to so that we can follow his questions.

 9             Mr. Jovanovic, this is a standing invitation.  Please proceed.

10     And perhaps already inform us about your last reference.

11             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is the

12     supplement to the statement, page 3, paragraph 3.  I'm sorry, I'm

13     mistaken.

14             MR. HOFFMANN:  If I may assist.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. HOFFMANN:  I think that the Defence is referring to the 2001

17     statement, at page 2, the last paragraph, in the English version.

18             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right.  Thank

19     you very much.

20             Need I repeat the question?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember the question?  Then please answer

22     it.  Otherwise, Mr. Jovanovic will repeat it.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have replied.  It is yes.

24             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Please clarify for me whether you knew to what specific

Page 1710

 1     department of the Ministry of the Interior Badza belonged.

 2        A.   Well, when I met him, when I talked with him, when he arrived in

 3     Dalj, he said that he was an athlete, a wrestler.

 4        Q.   Excuse me.  I must interrupt you in keeping with instructions

 5     from the Chamber.  So the question is do you know to -- are you

 6     acquainted with the structure, the organisation of the Ministry of the

 7     Interior?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   So he just told you he was with the police?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I ask that we

13     move into private session again.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

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12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

16             MR. HOFFMANN:

17        Q.   Witness, today during cross-examination, and that is on page 16

18     of today's transcript, you were asked about the presence of the

19     Novi Sad Corps and whether the JNA did exercise any influence on the

20     region of the SBWS.  And you answered in the positive, and I just want to

21     have just one clarification from you.

22             Did the JNA exercise any influence on units like Arkan's unit or

23     the Skorpions?

24        A.   At that time, talking about the presence of the JNA, that was in

25     1991, neither the Skorpions nor Arkan existed.  Arkan arrived in Tenja,

Page 1713

 1     if you followed my testimony, with some ten-odd men.  It was only later

 2     that he set up his unit during the actual war operations.

 3        Q.   Just a follow-up clarification.  I think your testimony yesterday

 4     was that, yes, Arkan started in Tenja, but he moved in Erdut a little bit

 5     later, but that was actually in 1991.  Is that not the case?

 6        A.   Yes, 1991.

 7        Q.   So can I just repeat the question.  At the time, you said the JNA

 8     did exercise some influence in the region of the SBWS.  Did the JNA or

 9     the army have any influence or did it exercise any influence on Arkan's

10     unit when he was in the region?

11        A.   Well, in 1991 it was Yugoslavia.  So we, the territorials, also

12     automatically came under the command of the JNA when the troops came,

13     when the army came.  Arkan in his time, while he was in Tenja, did his

14     thing.  I cannot tell you what he did or where he was.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not -- did not understand

16     at all the witness.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please slowly repeat your answer.

18             And could I ask the interpreters whether it was on from the

19     beginning of the answer or from approximately halfway?  I'm listening to

20     the English channel.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness can start over, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You started your last -- perhaps I'll repeat

23     first the question:

24             "Did the JNA or the army have any influence, or did it exercise

25     any influence on Arkan's unit when he was in the region?"

Page 1714

 1             And that question was put to you after you had confirmed that

 2     Arkan had moved in Erdut, still in 1991.

 3             You started your answer by saying:  "Well, in 1991, it was

 4     Yugoslavia."  Could you repeat the whole of your answer.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  In 1991 it was Yugoslavia

 6     still, and all of us who were in that area, when the army came to that

 7     area, were placed under the command of the JNA.  Arkan was in Tenja.  If

 8     you recall the map, this is the central ridge or area that juts out.

 9     It's about some 30 kilometres away from me.  I don't know whether he was

10     under the JNA command or not.  I couldn't really tell.  We all were.  As

11     for him, the fact that Calton's members were captured by the army and

12     handed them over to Arkan and Arkan liquidated them is something.  That

13     means that there was some cooperation.

14             MR. HOFFMANN:

15        Q.   A bit later during cross-examination you were asked about Arkan

16     again, and you confirmed that you did consider him as a volunteer, that

17     he was, in theory, subordinated to the TO but not factually, and you

18     stated that he was subordinated to the JNA.  When you said so, that he

19     was subordinated to the JNA, can you clarify if you're referring to the

20     law at the time or to the factual situation?

21        A.   I said that in the actions that were conducted, he was engaged by

22     the Yugoslav People's Army.  His unit was engaged, specifically

23     Andrija Biorcevic engaged him on the Vukovar front, which means that he

24     was subordinated to him in those operations.

25        Q.   And a bit later, you were telling the Court that Arkan's unit or

Page 1715

 1     Arkan had his own licence plate, and that is at page 26.  Can you tell

 2     the Court where Arkan or his unit got those special license plates from?

 3        A.   Yes.  Mrgud made those licence plates.  I mean, he didn't print

 4     them, but he brought them to them, according to Milan Milanovic.

 5        Q.   Just for clarification, do you have any knowledge where those

 6     plates were produced and where they came from?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   Talking about the meetings Hadzic had with Milosevic, there was

 9     mentioning of two meetings.  These two meetings are the ones that you

10     actually personally attended; is that correct?

11        A.   I did attend one, but the other one not.  We were not received.

12     Only Hadzic attended that second one.

13        Q.   The Defence did refer to you to the 2001 statement and quoted on

14     page 3 from the second last paragraph, and I want to just read out the

15     second part of that paragraph to you.  And it says, and I quote:

16              "I did not have many direct contacts with Goran Hadzic at that

17     time," which is 1991 to February 1992.  "However, when he was appointed

18     president of the RSK (26 February 1992) he was visiting

19     President Slobodan Milosevic regularly and talked to him over the phone

20     very often.  After the visits to Belgrade, Goran Hadzic would come to the

21     Skupstina (Regional Assembly) and inform us what was to be done in the

22     region."

23             Is that your statement?

24        A.   Yes, it is.  I don't know if he actually saw him, but he would

25     leave and go there.  He would take documents, the latest documents that

Page 1716

 1     he was given.  Like I said, these were the laws of the former Yugoslavia,

 2     so where it used to say the SFRY, it would say RS.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And on today's transcript, at page 33, you were

 4     referred to the 2001 statement again, on page 5, to the first full

 5     paragraph, and you refer to the so-called hotline telephones.  And in

 6     your statement you say:  "I assume that it had to be connected to

 7     Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza, or Jovica Stanisic or Slobodan Milosevic."

 8             Can you tell the Court why you assume so?

 9        A.   The special telephone, according to my information, was a direct

10     line with those people.  That's what Mrgud told us.  Hadzic also said

11     that nobody was allowed to answer that phone except them.  I'm thinking

12     of Mrgud and Hadzic.  No one was allowed to answer that phone at that

13     time, I mean, the phone was just a couple of metres away from me.

14        Q.   On page 39 of today's transcript, during cross-examination, you

15     were asked about your knowledge about the Red Berets in the area.

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

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Page 1717

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11 Page 1717 redacted. Private session.

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Page 1718

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Page 1719

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Page 1720

 1   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21        Q.   Witness, if I can simply ask you --

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I made the classical mistake to proceed when

24     Madam Registrar has not announced that we are back in open session.

25     Please proceed.

Page 1721

 1             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Witness, can I ask you again, at the time you did meet

 3     Jovica Stanisic on the occasions you described yesterday, did you have

 4     any knowledge about the official position of the accused, Jovica

 5     Stanisic, at the time?

 6        A.   Not at the time.  I found out later.  He actually introduced

 7     himself speaking on television.  He said that he was the chief of the

 8     State Security Department of Serbia, after he had liberated the UNPROFOR

 9     men who were tied there in Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   Thank you.  At the end of page 42, you were asked again about the

11     remarks that you heard Martic making about Jovica Stanisic at a meeting,

12     and the Defence counsel, at line 24, 25, indicated that the video

13     transmission we saw yesterday would have not supported your remarks.

14             Now, my question is:  Witness, did you not testify yesterday that

15     the remarks you were referring to were actually made at a different

16     meeting than the one we saw on the clip, on the video footage?

17        A.   When you asked me to clarify, when I said that I would not reply

18     and you said that I should; and I did reply, I said this was the second

19     time when he was there, Jovica Stanisic, the icy one, my only commander.

20     This was not in my statement.  This is something that I said when you

21     asked me, and the Chairman, Mr. President, instructed me that I should

22     answer your question.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Moving to another topic.  During cross-examination,

24     on page 53, line 40 -- 14, you were asked whether the army had any

25     proceedings initiated regarding the killings you described in your

Page 1722

 1     testimony.  Can you tell the Court if you are aware of any investigations

 2     by any official institution regarding those killings?

 3        A.   There was an investigation.  In Dalj when the court was set up,

 4     that was in 1991, the president of the court was Milos Vojnovic.  An

 5     investigation was launched.  Whether it was completed, I don't know,

 6     because the court was transferred to Vukovar.  I know that this one

 7     investigation was initiated, and there was also one by the Croatian

 8     authorities, and they convicted them to four, five, and seven years of

 9     prison; namely those who maltreated the prisoners in prison.

10        Q.   Aside from those investigations that you just referred to, are

11     you aware of any other investigations by any official institution?

12        A.   No.  There were no other ones.  The Defence mentioned when

13     Ilija Kojic wanted to initiate one, and we, who were present there, were

14     shot at.  Apart from that, there was nothing else.  There had been some

15     arrests of the first man who threatened me, who was arrested by the late

16     Kostic, and I have already described that.

17        Q.   On page 55, line 21, you were talking about Mrgud and the

18     smuggling of cigarettes, and you testified it was always for the needs of

19     the service.  What service do you refer to?

20        A.   This is what he said for the needs of the service.  That meant

21     for the needs of the security service.  Those were his words, and you can

22     get it from a court to see whether money actually ended up.

23        Q.   If you say security service, which one are you referring to?

24             MR. KNOOPS:  Objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What's --

Page 1723

 1             MR. KNOOPS:  The witness is not saying himself the security

 2     service.  He says, "I was --"

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me try to cut this short.  I understood the

 4     witness to say, he said as a pretext, that it was for the service, but

 5     you have serious doubts whether it was not for his personal interest,

 6     isn't it?

 7             Now, to know for what service it actually was not meant, to

 8     further explore that seems not to be of great assistance to the Chamber.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

10             MR. HOFFMANN:  I will.  Thank you.

11        Q.   On page 57, on questions by the Defence, you do refer -- or you

12     stated that Milan Milanovic, Mrgud, did all this for his own family.  How

13     do you know that?

14        A.   There was an indictment against him in Serbia.  I also read it in

15     the papers, and I inquired about.  And I was also told that he was rich

16     as Croesus, that he was filthy rich, and he is currently in prison.

17        Q.   So other than this hearsay evidence, you have no direct knowledge

18     of him working or making profit for his family; correct?

19        A.   No.  No, in fact, you're right, yes.

20             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, may we just seek clarification?  Is the

21     Prosecution impeaching their own witness and cross-examining their own

22     witness now?  It seems to the Defence that the Prosecution is putting

23     apparently discrepancies or clarifications to the Defence -- to the

24     witness which are apparently not favourable to them.  It's on the verge

25     of impeaching their own witness.  I think it's not proper.

Page 1724

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jovanovic, I've not heard you yet.

 3             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned colleague

 4     from the OTP is actually not saying that the witness found this out from

 5     the investigators of the OTP.  He's not raising an objection to that

 6     effect.  He just says that it is hearsay.  Is it the position of the OTP

 7     that what their investigator says is actually hearsay; that is, indirect

 8     knowledge?  So the OTP has not actually advanced any doubts in terms that

 9     Vladimir Dzuro has said something to this witness.  They just say that

10     this is hearsay.  They're not only impeaching their own witness but also

11     impeaching their own investigator in this way.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The objections are denied.  You please repeat the

13     question.

14             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber does not consider that the Prosecution

16     is impeaching its own witness.  Please proceed.

17             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   I'm simply asking you, Witness, you did state on page 57 that

19     Milan Milanovic, Mrgud, was doing various things for the sake, for the

20     profit of his family.  All I'm doing is to ask you for the source of that

21     information.

22        A.   I shall repeat.  Vladimir Dzuro told me that he was rich, very

23     rich, and the other sources of information were the press and the

24     television, Radio Television Belgrade, and they had heard, that

25     Milan Milanovic had been arrested on account of cigarette smuggling

Page 1725

 1     affair.

 2   (redacted)

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 6   (redacted)

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19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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23   (redacted)

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  One second, please.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 1726

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2                           Questioned by the Court:

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

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 9                           [Private session]

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Page 1727

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13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             Witness C-015, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to thank

17     you very much for coming to The Hague and for answering the questions

18     that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a

19     safe trip home again.

20             Mr. Hoffmann.

21             MR. HOFFMANN:  Just to err on the side of caution, if he leaves

22     the courtroom, we should be in closed session.  Okay.  I'm mistaken.

23     Then it's fine.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In this courtroom where the blinds are down,

25     no one can see the witness, and apart from that, I'll not invite the

Page 1729

 1     witness to be escorted out of the courtroom at this very moment.

 2             We adjourn until -- yes --

 3             MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:  That is one matter I would like to raise

 4     very briefly.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But that is not related to this witness?

 6             MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:  No.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I would invite the Usher to escort the witness

 8     out of this courtroom, and in this courtroom no one can see him.

 9     Therefore, we just should take care that the face distortion that -- yes.

10     I think -- you now may escort the witness out of the courtroom,

11     Mr. Usher.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just allow me to thank you for the

13     opportunity that you have offered me, and I wish you much success in your

14     work.  Thank you very much, and I thank you for my protective measures.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- could you -- yes.  Could you please

16     escort the witness out of the courtroom.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Brehmeier, you wanted to raise a procedural

19     issue, I take it.

20             MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:  Yes, I want to raise one matter, and I'd

21     request the guidance of the court on this.  It relates to the witness

22     that is coming next week.  As Your Honours will know, we have provided

23     the Court with CDs containing the statements of those witnesses for which

24     we have requested admission under 92 ter or 92 bis.  The witness that is

25     coming next week will be a viva voce witness, so no statements have been

Page 1730

 1     provided to the Court as of yet, and I would request from the Court to

 2     know -- to let me know whether such statements should be required --

 3     provided to the Court, which, of course, we will be happy to do.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Are statements taken?

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Statements were taken, I do understand.

 7             MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:  Yes, two statements and a proofing note.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And is there any intention to rely on those?

 9             MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:  Not in examination-in-chief, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Has the Defence received those statements?

11             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know already whether you would like to rely

13     on them?  Because if no one relies on statements, then, of course,

14     there's no need for the Chamber to --

15             MR. JORDASH:  Unlikely, I would suggest.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jovanovic.

17             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, the same, but

18     in any case, the Defence will pay attention to possible discrepancies in

19     the examination-in-chief and what was previously stated in a statement.

20     We cannot completely disregard that, but at the same time, we will not

21     rely on it totally either.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I also inquire with the Defence whether there would

23     be any objection to the Chamber looking at these statements, although

24     they will not be used in evidence, and of course if they're not admitted

25     into evidence, the Chamber would never rely on those statements unless,

Page 1731

 1     of course, the Chamber itself being entitled to ask questions from a

 2     witness could find inconsistencies with previous statements.

 3             Mr. Jordash.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  We wouldn't object.  In fact, it would certainly

 5     assist.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jovanovic.

 7             MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] There will be no objections to

 8     that, and we believe that in any case, the Chamber needs to be informed

 9     in advance about the content of the testimony of the witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course we receive the 65 ter summary, but

11     let me just consult with my colleagues.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Brehmeier, the Chamber would like to receive

14     copies of the statements also in view of the positions taken by the

15     Defence.

16             Any other matter?

17             MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:  Nothing, Your Honour.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Any matter to be raised by the Defence?

19             Then we adjourn until next week Monday, the 6th of July, quarter

20     past 2.00 in the afternoon, in Courtroom I.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of

23                           July, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.

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