1 Thursday, 16 July 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Stanisic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in this courtroom and
7 those just outside the courtroom assisting us.
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
10 IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 A few procedural issues. The Prosecution is invited to file the
13 overview of photographs used during the testimony of Witness C-1118 so
14 that it's clearly on the record in this table which number corresponds
15 with which ERN number.
16 Then we'll -- the Chamber received a form, "Absence from court
17 due to illness," in which Mr. Stanisic has indicated that he feels unable
18 to attend court proceedings on this date due to illness. He has not
19 ticked the box that he has discussed the matter with counsel.
20 Mr. Jordash, does that raise any concern?
21 MR. JORDASH: No, it doesn't. I think the situation is
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we also received a -- a form in which the
24 UN Detention Unit Medical Service ticked some boxes as -- in relation to
25 having examined Mr. Stanisic, that he has no observable symptoms with
1 which the doctor can judge whether or not he's too unwell to attend
2 court. It also says that:
3 "Including today, I assess that he will require a zero day
4 absence before he should be fit to attend court once more," and that the
5 medical officer will see the detainee today. That's dated the 16th of
7 The Chamber further received the -- the form in which the
8 principal officer, Mr. Lagendijk [phoen] reports about his meeting with
9 Mr. Stanisic today in which he announced that the court schedule was -- a
10 court hearing was scheduled, that Mr. Stanisic indicated that he feels
11 too unwell to attend court and at that he is not willing to wave his
12 right to attend court in person and that he did not indicate that he
13 wishes to use the video-conferencing link.
14 Finally, the Chamber received the weekly medical report which
15 says that there are no significant changes, hardly any changes compared
16 to yesterday, apart that the mobility seems to be slightly better than it
17 was yesterday.
18 Any need to make further submissions or any questions for the
20 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: No, Your Honour.
21 MR. JORDASH: No, thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, could a message be sent to
23 the doctor that we thank him had for remaining standby, and that since
24 there are no questions for him -- perhaps you could just activate the
25 videolink for a second.
1 Good afternoon. Can you hear me? Can you see me?
2 Doctor, we just went through all the paperwork, and the parties
3 indicated to me that they have no further questions for you. The parties
4 have no further questions for you. Therefore I would like to very much
5 thank you for remaining standby, and you are excused.
6 DR. ROWELL: [Via videolink] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We can finish the videolink.
8 In order to use our time as efficiently as possible, the parties
9 are requested that within half an hour of receiving the medical reports
10 they should indicate to the ...
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: The parties are requested to indicate within half an
13 hour upon having received the medical report whether there's any need for
14 the doctor to remain standby for answering further questions.
15 MR. JORDASH: The only problem with that, Your Honour, is that
16 often the Stanisic Defence are travelling to court when the report
17 arrives. Could you also --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I said after receipt, which means that if you
19 have not received it. But at the same time it might be a very practical
20 solution that you receive a phone call perhaps once we have received it,
21 and to the extent you want to have anything read to you, that it will be
22 read to you by telephone and that you then make up your mind, because I
23 find it a waste of time for the doctor to remained standby and then to
24 hear that we have no questions for him. That's -- but of course we'll
25 try to apply such a regime in a reasonable way, of course. And not
1 asking from you anything in this respect, that would be unreasonable.
2 And the Chamber is confident that it will receive your cooperation in
3 this respect.
4 Before we call the next witness, did we understand well,
5 Mr. Jordash, that for the next witness there's no need to cross-examine
6 him, at least on the basis of the statement and the transcripts?
7 MR. JORDASH: That's quite right from the Stanisic Defence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I might say a few words about that later.
9 Mr. Jovanovic, will you cross-examine the witness later?
10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. My estimate is
11 that it will be a brief examination, maybe quarter of an hour. I will
12 have perhaps two questions based on the previously given statement.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll perhaps later discuss these matters.
14 Ms. Brehmeier, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
15 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures?
17 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: No protective measures, no.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort
19 Ms. Denona into the courtroom.
20 Ms. Brehmeier, will it be you who examines the witness? I saw
21 Ms. Brehmeier nodding yes.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 WITNESS: JASNA DENONA
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Ms. Denona. Before you give
1 evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that
2 you make a solemn declaration. The text will now be handed out by
3 Madam Usher. I invite you to make at that solemn declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Ms. Denona.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Denona, you'll first be examined by
9 Ms. Brehmeier-Metz, and she is counsel for the Prosecution.
10 Please proceed, Ms. Brehmeier.
11 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Examination by Ms. Brehmeier-Metz:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Denona. Can you please give your full name
14 to the court.
15 A. Jasna Denona.
16 Q. What is your maiden name?
17 A. Marinovic.
18 Q. And when and where were you born?
19 A. I was born on the 22nd September 1976, in Benkovac.
20 Q. Do you recall giving a statement to investigators of the
22 A. I do.
23 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: I would ask that 65 ter number 1163, a
24 statement dated 2nd and 3rd of November, 2000 and -- 2000 be placed on
25 the monitor, please.
1 Q. On the screen before you, you see a document purporting to be a
2 statement given by you on the 2nd and 3rd of November, 2000. Can I ask
3 you, please, to look at the bottom of that page and at the signatures.
4 Do you recognise any of the signatures?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Which one do you recognise?
7 A. My own.
8 Q. And is this your statement?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. And I then also ask you to look at the bottom of the last page of
11 this document and tell me whether you recognise any of the signatures.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And which one do you recognise?
14 A. My signature.
15 Q. Before you came here to The Hague to testify in this case, did
16 you have an opportunity to review a translation of this statement in your
17 own language?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And is there anything that you wish to change or to clarify in
20 that statement?
21 A. I stand by the statement.
22 Q. And the statement that you signed in 2000, in November 2000, does
23 that accurately reflect what you said to the investigators in November
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today that you were
2 asked in 2000, would you give the same answers?
3 A. I would.
4 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: The Prosecution moves to have 65 ter
5 Exhibit 1163 admitted into evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
7 Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P37, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
10 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:
11 Q. Ms. Denona, do you recall having given testimony before this
12 Tribunal on 29th October 2003, in the case of Slobodan Milosevic, and on
13 9th February 2006, in the case of Milan Martic?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: I would ask in a 65 ter number 5038, which
16 is a copy of the transcript of this witness's testimony given before this
17 Tribunal in the case of Slobodan Milosevic be shown.
18 Q. After arriving here in The Hague, Ms. Denona, and in preparation
19 for your testimony today, did you have an opportunity to review audio
20 recordings of your testimony in the Slobodan Milosevic case?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And having reviewed your testimony, is there anything you wish to
23 change or clarify?
24 A. No.
25 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: I would then ask that 65 ter number 5039,
1 which is a copy of the transcript of this witness's testimony in the
2 Milan Martic case be shown.
3 Q. And again, the same question, Ms. Denona. After arriving here in
4 The Hague and in preparation for your testimony today, did you have an
5 opportunity to review audio recordings of your testimony in the
6 Milan Martic case?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. And having reviewed your testimony, is there anything you would
9 wish to change or clarify?
10 A. No.
11 Q. If you were asked the same questions today that you were asked in
12 the Slobodan Milosevic case and in the Milan Martic case would you give
13 the same answers?
14 A. Yes, I would.
15 Q. And do you affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of your prior
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution
19 tenders 65 ter numbers 5038 and 5039, which is the prior testimony of
20 this witness in the Milosevic and Martic cases on 29th October 2003, and
21 9th February 2006.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any objections against admission?
23 MR. JORDASH: No. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: There are no objections. Therefore, the transcripts
25 of the previous testimony of the witness are admitted into evidence.
1 Madam Registrar, would you please assign numbers.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibits P38 and P39, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
4 You may proceed, Ms. Brehmeier.
5 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 I would now ask 65 ter number 6 -- sorry, 2650 to be called on
7 the screen.
8 For Your Honours' reference, this is map 1 in the court binder.
9 Q. Ms. Denona, you see before you a -- an overview map of Croatia
10 and Bosnia. This is not an official map. However, does this map give an
11 overview of the locations of Skabrnja, Nadin, and Bruska, which is within
12 Croatia, which is approximately correct?
13 A. Yes, it does.
14 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: I would then ask that 65 -- that map 16 of
15 the court binder, which is ERN 0632-2720, be shown.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
17 Madam Registrar.
18 You wanted to tender it into evidence, I took it.
19 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: I intended --
20 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't ask, but I was a bit early,
21 Ms. Brehmeier.
22 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: I can tender it into evidence if
23 Your Honours please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P40, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P40 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
2 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: The next map I would like to be shown is
3 map 16 of the court binder, 0632-2720. And the 65 ter number, I believe,
4 is CB-map 16.
5 Q. Ms. Denona, before you now is an official map. And you can see
6 the names of the villages of Skabrnja and Nadin in red. Does this map
7 accurately reflect the locations of Skabrnja and Nadin as being to the
8 west of Benkovac, which is in the lower right corner of this map?
9 A. Yes, it does.
10 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: If Your Honours please, I can tender the map
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P41, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P41 is admitted into evidence.
16 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:
17 Q. And the last map I'd like you to look at, Ms. Denona, is map 17
18 of the court binder, ERN 0632-2721, or 65 ter number CB-map 17.
19 This is another official map, and you can see the name of the
20 village of Bruska set out in red. Does this map accurately reflect the
21 location of the village of Bruska as being to the north-east of Benkovac,
22 which is in the -- in the lower left corner of this map.
23 A. Yes, it does.
24 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: And the Prosecution tenders this map into
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P42, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
4 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Ms. Denona, in your testimonies in the two cases that you
6 appeared in previously, as well as in your statement given to
7 investigators of the ICTY, you described the events that led to you being
8 shot while fleeing your home on 21st December 1991. I'd like to ask you
9 a few brief questions about this, the first one being: When someone
10 knocked at the door on the evening of that day, who went to the front
12 A. I did.
13 Q. And whose house was it?
14 A. Mine.
15 Q. What did you say?
16 A. I asked who was at the door.
17 Q. And what was the response?
18 A. The militia of Krajina.
19 Q. Was something else said to identify the persons outside?
20 A. Yes. I repeated my question. They said for the second time
21 'round that they were Krajina police, the so-called Martic's men.
22 Q. Was the expression "Marticevci" actually used by the men?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What did you understand that to mean?
25 A. I understood it to mean that they were the police who at that
1 time were going under the name of Marticevci, and I presumed they were
3 Q. In your testimony and statement, you then describe how you fled
4 the house. Why did you flee?
5 A. Because before we opened the door, I had heard shots. It scared
6 us, and we feared for our lives.
7 Q. In what direction did you flee?
8 A. To the south, through the balcony door of the house.
9 Q. Were you followed?
10 A. Do you mean the armed people or the people who were with me in
11 the house?
12 Q. Let's start with the people who were with you in the house.
13 A. Yes. I fled as well as my mother and two lady neighbours.
14 Q. And the armed men?
15 A. They remained standing in front of the entrance with our
16 neighbour Dragan, who opened the door of the house.
17 Q. Do you know what happened to Dragan after he had opened the door
18 of the house?
19 A. Before I fled from the house, I heard a conversation. The men
20 who came knocking asked Dragan, "Dragan, what are you doing in Bore's
22 Q. And Boro being who?
23 A. Bore is my father.
24 Q. Could you hear what Dragan responded to this?
25 A. Dragan told them that we were not doing anything, that we were
1 just sitting around and talking, nothing in particular.
2 Q. When you fled, can you please describe to us what happened to
4 A. I'm afraid I did not understand the question.
5 Q. When you fled the house, were you shot at?
6 A. Yes. When I jumped the wall of the yard, one volley of fire
7 sounded from behind me, from a distance of about 4 to 5 metres. And the
8 next shots hit the ground near my feet, and one of the bullets hit me.
9 Q. Where did the bullet hit you?
10 A. It was not only one bullet. I was hit in the hip and the right
12 Q. In your opinion -- no, sorry. I rephrase the question.
13 What did your mother wear that -- that evening?
14 A. A skirt and a long-sleeved top.
15 Q. What did you wear?
16 A. Jeans and a T-shirt.
17 Q. At that time how did you wear your hair?
18 A. Long, tied in a pig-tail.
19 Q. How was the light at that evening?
20 A. Clear, moonlight.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The hair was tied in
22 a pony-tail.
23 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:
24 Q. You then describe how you hid in the feels and later returned to
25 the house and that you found a number of dead people there. Can you
1 please give us the names of the people you found in the house dead?
2 A. Petar Marinovic, Svetozar Draca, Roko Marinovic, and
3 Dusko Marinovic.
4 Q. And were they lying in your house or in another house?
5 A. The next-door house belonging to Roko Marinovic.
6 Q. Do you know of anybody else who was killed?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you please give us the names.
9 A. Dragan Marinovic was killed after being hauled away from my
10 house, and his mother, Ika Marinovic. And another four neighbours,
11 Krste Marinovic, his wife Draginja Marinovic, another neighbour
12 Stana Marinovic, and her sister-in-law nick-named Masa or
13 Manda Marinovic.
14 Q. Was anyone wounded?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who was wounded?
17 A. Apart from me, Ante Marinovic.
18 Q. You've already told us that you were hit by two bullets. Do you
19 know how the people you have named were killed or wounded?
20 A. From firearms.
21 Q. Ms. Denona, do you recall having given a statement to the
22 Benkovac police on 25th December 1991?
23 A. I don't remember that it was that exact date, but in the month of
24 December, I gave a statement, sometime between the 25th and the 27th
1 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: I'd ask that 65 ter number 2655 be called on
2 the screen.
3 Q. The statement that is now shown on the screen, is that the one
4 that you gave to the police in Benkovac and that was shown to you during
5 your testimony in the Milan Martic case?
6 A. It's really not easily legible. The dates do not coincide. I
7 don't think it was the 25th of December, if the left -- if the top left
8 corner indicates the date of the giving of the statement.
9 Q. But aside from the date, do you recognise this statement?
10 A. I recognise it from seeing it in the previous case.
11 Q. Before you testified here today, did you have a chance to read
12 this document in your own language?
13 A. To the extent that it was legible, could I read it. I had the
14 opportunity to read it, but there are -- there is certain information
15 that is not recorded accurately.
16 Q. What is not recorded accurately?
17 A. Well, for instance, it is not verbatim what I said in my
19 Q. What is missing in that statement?
20 A. The thing that left the greatest impression is left out, namely
21 that the men who burst through the door said they were Martic's men.
22 Q. Other than that and taking into account that the document is very
23 difficult to read, does this statement accurately reflect what you told
24 the Benkovac police in December 1991?
25 A. You could say yes. You could say that.
1 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders this
2 document into evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? In the absence of any objections,
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P42 -- 43, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P43 is admitted into evidence.
7 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Thank you. I'm finished with that document.
8 Q. Ms. Denona, do you also recall having spoken to the Zadar police
9 in July 1992?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Could 65 ter number 5040 please be shown.
12 Q. Ms. Denona, this is a note compiled by the Zadar police about
13 your interview on the 13th of July, 1992. Did you have a chance to read
14 this document in your own language before you testified here today?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. Is this a true reflection of what you told the Zadar police, or
17 is there anything you want to correct or add?
18 A. There are points that I would correct, and there are additions I
19 would make.
20 Q. And let's deal with the corrections first. What would you like
21 to correct?
22 A. The incident happened at 1945 hours, not at 2015 hours. And it's
23 not true that my mother and Dragan went into the hallway and talked to
24 the person or persons banging on the door. It was I who talked. If --
25 that my mother talked to them and said that it was late and she wasn't
1 going to open the door is not correct. They did not fire three times.
2 It was not there that Dragan was ordered to raise his arms in the air.
3 They asked Dragan, "What are you doing in Bore's house?" not, "What are
4 you doing here?"
5 Q. Anything else?
6 A. Just let me read it to the end.
7 Q. I apologise.
8 A. That's it.
9 Q. You also said that there was something you wanted to add to this
10 note. Can you tell us what you would like to add.
11 A. I thought I would add the words that I said that had been left
12 out, but I've already said what I said then when making the corrections.
13 Q. Other than the corrections you've just made, does this note
14 accurately reflect what you said to the Zadar police on the 13th of July,
16 A. Roughly, yes.
17 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders Exhibit
18 number 5040 into evidence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar,
20 the number to be assigned is?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P44, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P44 is admitted into evidence.
23 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:
24 Q. The next exhibit I'd like you to look at, Ms. Denona, is 65 ter
25 1142, and I ask that that be shown on the screen.
1 A. This is a report by Lieutenant-Colonel Simo Rosic of the
2 180th Motorised Brigade of the JNA to the JNA 9th Corps, dated 11th March
3 1992. And at the bottom half of that page we can see that it addresses
4 the "Massacre in Bruska."
5 Q. Have you seen this document before?
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Can we please move to page 3 of that
9 Q. Paragraphs three and four of that page contain information about
10 a fight between Dusko Marinovic and Mile Pupovac three or four years
11 prior to 1991. And they point out that this may have been the reason for
12 the attack on the 21st of December, 1991, and that Mile Pupovac may have
13 been one of the perpetrators.
14 Ms. Denona, when have you first heard about a fight between
15 Dusko Marinovic and Mile Pupovac?
16 A. I read that only in this document. I'd never heard of it
17 otherwise in my life.
18 Q. The house of Dusko Marinovic, was that the only house that was
19 attacked on the 21st of December, 1991?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And the people killed on the 21st of December, 1991, were they
22 all from Dusko Marinovic's house?
23 A. No.
24 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders this
25 exhibit into evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Therefore, Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P45, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P45 is admitted into evidence.
4 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:
5 Q. The last document I'd like you to look at, Ms. Denona, is 65 ter
6 1143. This is a note compiled by Major Branislav Ristic, also of the
7 180th Motorised Brigade of the JNA. It is dated 4th April 1992, and it
8 deals with "The killings in Bruska."
9 Have you seen this document before?
10 A. Only during proofing. Yes, I did.
11 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Can we please move to page 2 of this
13 Q. Paragraph one of that page describes that the murderer or
14 murderers of the killings in Bruska are from Medvidje, and in paragraph
15 two it says that Pupovac and Skoric from Medvidje committed the murders
16 in Bruska.
17 Do you know the persons mentioned here, Pupovac and Skoric?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Other than what you have told the Court, is there anything that
20 you would know that would identify the persons who came to your house on
21 the 21st of December, 1991?
22 A. I can only say that I believe this was done by the so-called
23 militia of Krajina, Martic's men, but based on this I can't say anything.
24 From all I know, it was done by the people who introduced themselves when
25 they banged on the door.
1 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders this
2 exhibit into evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Then, Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P46, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P46 is admitted into evidence.
6 Ms. Brehmeier, please proceed.
7 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:
8 Q. And as a final issue, Ms. Denona, I'd like to briefly touch upon
9 the wounds that you have received. You suffered a shot in your left hip
10 and a shot in your right arm; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us where the bullets hit your body, in the back, on
13 one of the sides, left or right, or in the front?
14 A. On the left.
15 Q. Did you suffer any long-term consequences from these wounds?
16 A. Yes. I am disabled 50 percent. I'm registered as a civilian
17 invalid. My arm is permanently damaged.
18 Q. Are there any long-term consequences you have suffered from the
19 shot in your hip?
20 A. No, nothing serious.
21 Q. Would you mind showing your right arm to the Court.
22 A. I don't mind.
23 Q. Would you please show it to the Court.
24 A. [No interpretation]
25 JUDGE ORIE: The witness shows her right arm to the Court in
1 which we see visible scars of what appears to be injuries.
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ:
4 Q. Thank you very much, Ms. Denona.
5 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Brehmeier.
7 No cross-examination by the Stanisic Defence.
8 Simatovic Defence, Mr. Jovanovic.
9 Ms. Denona, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jovanovic.
10 Mr. Jovanovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Jovanovic.
12 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Jovanovic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Denona, I have only a few questions for you
15 which are unrelated to the event in which you were a victim. Otherwise,
16 I want to say that I'm sorry for the things that you went through.
17 At the time the incident occurred, you were 15 years old; is that
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You said that before the incident you were not interested in
21 politics but, however, that you did know that Serbs had taken up certain
22 places in the environs of your village.
23 A. Yes. One could know that from the news.
24 Q. Ms. Denona, at the time did you know what the JNA is, what the
25 Martic police is, irrespective of the way those people introduced
1 themselves when they knocked on the door of your house and opened fire at
3 A. I could tell them apart by their uniforms.
4 Q. Was there any JNA presence in your area since you say you could
5 tell them apart because of the uniforms?
6 A. Not in my village.
7 Q. I mean the general area around your village, not only the village
9 A. I did see them in Benkovac, Benkovac being the closest place
10 where I saw them.
11 Q. Did you see any troop movement on the part of the JNA, their
12 vehicles, weapons?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. Your neighbour who was killed, Dragan, he had been mobilised into
15 the JNA?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did he receive a mobilisation call to join the JNA?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Is that person's full name Sveto Draca?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. He wore a JNA uniform?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you, Ms. Denona. I have no further questions for you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd just give us one second.
2 Ms. Brehmeier, has the cross-examination triggered any need to
3 re-examine the witness?
4 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has no questions for you, Ms. Denona.
6 That means that this concludes your evidence in this court. We'd like to
7 thank you very much for coming the long way to The Hague and for having
8 answered the questions that were put to you by the parties, and I wish
9 you a safe trip home again.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort Ms. Denona out
12 of the courtroom.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourn, the Chamber would invite the
16 parties to explain to this Chamber what bringing this witness to
17 The Hague, attending with over 30 people in this courtroom, this
18 testimony, what it has brought us anything more than what could have
19 achieved under Rule 92 bis?
20 Mr. Jovanovic.
21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, exactly the
22 questions I put to the witness, irrespective of the fact that the witness
23 was only 15 years old at the time, which raised some doubt with me as to
24 what formations there were at the time. She did mention mobilisation
25 call-up papers for the person Sveto Draca from the JNA. She also
1 mentioned some members of the Serbian paramilitary forces. What I wanted
2 to learn from her was whether she had any realistic and factual knowledge
3 at the time about the various uniformed personnel and units she could see
4 in the area or whether she learned that subsequently. Since she said
5 that she was aware of that at the time from the news, i.e., that she knew
6 what the JNA was and what its members looked like and what weapons they
7 had and she could differentiate between the JNA and the Martic --
8 Martic's Police, this is precisely what I wanted to get at, asking her
9 whether she was familiar with any JNA presence in that area. This is
10 relevant for our defence. I wanted to know whether in that general area
11 there were only Serb paramilitaries whom she mentioned or those belonging
12 to Martic's Police or whether there were any JNA soldiers there as well,
13 and I am satisfied with the answer I received to that effect.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Wasn't it at length dealt with in the
15 cross-examination by Mr. Milosevic at the time? Not the five questions
16 you put to her, but approximately the six, seven, eight, nine, or
17 ten pages of cross-examination by Mr. Milosevic, asking in full detail
18 what she knew of any military presence and activities, including JNA
19 soldiers she saw when she went to school. Wasn't that dealt with in
20 quite some detail, far more detailed than you asked her?
21 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honour.
22 However, I believe that the essence -- the crux of the cross-examination
23 conducted by the accused Milosevic moved in the direction of the crimes
24 being committed by those who were not members or were in anyway related
25 to the JNA since literally this incident occurred because of some people
1 who were out of control.
2 Her answer in which she says that the JNA had been stationed
3 close to JNA and that she had noticed JNA movements, it was our position
4 that it was within the AOR
5 that reason.
6 As I've already said, from the cross-examination by
7 Mr. Milosevic, one could not conclude whether the witness was at the time
8 of the incident aware of which units, armed units, there were in the area
9 or whether she learned about that after having been wounded. As she
10 shared with us, she said that she could learn from the news who was
11 present in that area at the time.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The same question for you, Mr. Jordash.
13 MR. JORDASH: The simple answer, Your Honour, from our
14 perspective is we have no instructions. And so decisions which we would
15 be able to make much earlier if we had instructions cannot -- sometimes
16 cannot be made at all. In this instance, we made the decision not to
17 cross-examine. Not on the basis of instructions but on the basis of what
18 we perceived to be the best interests of our client. That decision could
19 only be made quite late in the day after considerable thought and
20 considerable cross-referencing of various materials and, even then, with
21 some reluctance given that we are in this difficult ethical position of
22 acting without instructions.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because you earlier may have had on your mind
24 that you wanted to cross-examine the witness, isn't it?
25 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And without instructions you changed your mind?
2 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So at the time you had reason to prepare for
4 cross-examination, whereas now, without any further instructions you
5 refrain from cross-examination.
6 MR. JORDASH: Yes. On the basis that we are trying to gauge what
7 is a sensible course to travel to, on the one hand, provide our client
8 with a reasonable and forthright defence; and on the other hand, to
9 remain as close as we can to our ethical commitment under the code of
10 conduct to act on instructions, an almost impossible balancing exercise
11 given the code of conduct and given our lack of instructions, but we're
12 doing the best we can to assist our client and assist the Court.
13 JUDGE ORIE: At the time when you said you wanted to
14 cross-examine the witness, did you have any instructions at that time?
15 MR. JORDASH: No. I mean, our fallback position in that
16 situation is first to assume we do have cross-examination if anything
17 appears to arise from the statement, and then to slowly move towards a
18 position whereby we can accept as much as we think is safe to accept in
19 light of the considerations I've just outlined.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
21 Ms. Brehmeier, have you considered to speak with the Defence
22 about the necessity of calling this witness as a viva voce witness rather
23 than to re-seek this witness to be called as a 92 bis witness?
24 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: Your Honour, in light of the fact that any
25 92 bis motion of the Prosecution since 2007 has been entirely opposed by
1 the Defence, I did not see much use in addressing this specific issue
2 with them.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The parties will understand why I put these
4 questions after consultation with my colleagues, because what we have now
5 is -- let me ask you one further question.
6 Is there any dispute about the presence of JNA forces on the
7 21st of December, 1991, in the Benkovac area?
8 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: That is difficult for me to answer,
9 Your Honour, because certainly with the Simatovic Defence we have not
10 been able to reach any agreement on any facts based, for example, on the
11 Martic judgement, so I --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I'm asking you if the Simatovic Defence
13 would take the position that JNA forces were present in the Benkovac
14 area, I'm not asking about what they were doing there but whether troops
15 were there and may have moved around, would that be a point the
16 Prosecution would dispute?
17 MS. BREHMEIER-METZ: I wouldn't think so, but I haven't heard
18 anything from the Simatovic Defence in that respect.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, but apparently the whole purpose of the
20 cross-examination has been to -- to establish that there was JNA presence
21 and movement, unless there's anything else, Mr. Jovanovic, which I may
22 have missed. Because I jotted down how old she was at the time; well,
23 that's not entirely new in this testimony. Whether she knew about JNA;
24 we see already in the statement that she's talking about green olive JNA
25 uniforms; and apparently there's no dispute about whether there was any
1 JNA presence of troops in the area, and that was specified in the
2 Benkovac area. The -- then finally the only thing that remained was
3 whether Dragan or, later, Sveto was mobilised, and that is dealt with in
4 the statement as well if I am not mistaken, Mr. Jovanovic. Or is there
5 anything entirely knew of substance which you learned today from this
7 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I must
8 say that Defence accepted many adjudicated facts, and the Prosecution is
9 aware of that, hence their argument is incorrect.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jovanovic, I asked you a question. I didn't
11 invite you to respond to what Mrs. Brehmeier has said. I asked you what
12 is new and of substance you learned which is not yet contained in the
13 witness statement, what is not yet contained in the two transcripts, and
14 matters of substance I would consider matters where you could reasonably
15 expect that they would be in dispute. And we just learned that the JNA
16 presence in the Benkovac area on the 21st of December, 1991, is not
18 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the first page of
19 the statement the witness mentioned members of the Serb paramilitaries,
20 paramilitary forces. Then she mentioned that Sveto Draca had been
21 mobilised into the JNA. At the end, describing the incident in which she
22 was wounded, she mentioned Martic's Police.
23 Having in mind that she was 15 years of age at the time, I was
24 doubtful as to whether at the time she could distinguish between those
25 units that were present so as to be able to characterise one unit as a
1 paramilitary unit; another unit as a JNA unit; and thirdly, Martic's
2 Police. That is why I asked the witness whether being 15 years old at
3 the time she knew who they were and who was or was not present in that
5 Irrespective of her age at the time of the incident, she told us
6 that she learned from the news of the units and that she could identify
7 the JNA as such.
8 I believe that that piece of information -- or, rather, that that
9 conclusion could not be arrived at from the statement itself as well as
10 on the basis of the testimony in the Milosevic case. I was interested in
11 whether she knew about who the people involved were then or whether she
12 learned of that later given the fact that nine years have elapsed.
13 Since she said that she could recognise JNA uniforms, at the
14 time, I put the follow-up question as to whether she knew of any JNA
15 presence, movement, and weapons in that area.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apparently this is not in dispute, so whether
17 there's any need to ask whether at that time a 15-year-old witness was
18 able to establish this, and then of course what one would have expected
19 where she describes in her statement and her testimony what she saw when
20 she went to school, et cetera, and she describes the colours of the
21 uniforms, what now is added by asking, "Were you able to see whether
22 these were JNA?" An apparently undisputed fact. And of course I'm not
23 saying that if there's a good reason to call a witness for
24 cross-examination that you should not ask that question, but again
25 there's no dispute about it. And what we see is we have asked a young
1 woman to travel for 2.000 kilometres to come here and to go back, to give
2 a statement or to testify where we have had one statement, two
3 transcripts of testimony where nothing of substance is added. And to the
4 extent anything is added, it is a matter which is not in dispute, and
5 that kept us, well over 30 people, busy over the last one hour and a
6 half. We all had to prepare. We all had to be here.
7 This Chamber --
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: And I've verified with my colleagues, just a waste
10 of time. And the Chamber expects the parties to communicate in such a
11 way and to consider what are the core issues in this case, so as this to
12 never happen again.
13 We stand adjourned until the 20th of July, quarter past 2.00,
14 Courtroom I.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.37 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day of July,
17 2009, at 2.15 p.m.