Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2545

 1                           Monday, 14 December 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused Simatovic entered court]

 4                           [The accused Stanisic appeared via videolink]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours.  This

 8     is case number IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and

 9     Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Before we continue, Mr. Knoops, there was a request from the

12     Stanisic Defence that further questions would be put to Dr. Eekhof in

13     relation to the motion for provisional release.  Now, the Chamber, having

14     received now the response by -- by the Prosecution, has tried to seek

15     means to have Dr. Eekhof available, but I do understand that he is on

16     leave for quite a while, which means that we can't put any questions.

17     Now, of course we have considered the option of his replacements to be

18     heard, which would be Dr. Rowell, and we have inquired into his

19     availability, and I do understand that he is not unavailable but that he

20     already has reported to -- to the -- how do you say that? -- the director

21     of the detention unit that he will have little to say and that he hardly

22     could comment on the report which was sent in by Dr. Eekhof.

23             Under those circumstances do you still insist on examining a

24     medical doctor on the matter, and would that then be Dr. Rowell?

25             MR. JORDASH:  May I deal with the point, Your Honour?

Page 2546

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Jordash.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  The difficulty we have is that we sought to have

 3     Dr. Eekhof give evidence to clear up any residual issues or answers which

 4     had not been given by his statement, and so to a certain degree we're in

 5     Your Honours' hands as to what Your Honours consider those points might

 6     be.  So that's the first point I'd make.

 7             The second point is this:  That it seemed to us that a

 8     substantial part of the Prosecution's objections was premised on

 9     Mr. Stanisic's personal problems and those that he hopes to sort out and

10     the medical opinion that is premised on that basis.  To a certain degree,

11     perhaps, Dr. Rowell could deal with that issue insofar as he could

12     explain how a patient's personal problems, perceived or real, might

13     impact on a psychiatric condition and might, if those personal problems

14     have been resolved, alleviate psychiatric illness and improve the

15     clinical picture.

16             So it's, one, to deal with any points Your Honours might have;

17     and two, to deal with perhaps a generalised issue raised by the

18     Prosecution in their response.  So to the extent Your Honours consider

19     that would assist we would seek Dr. Rowell.  If Your Honours do not

20     consider that kind of general evidence would assist Your Honours in

21     reaching a decision then obviously we wouldn't want to waste Dr. Rowell's

22     time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No, and one of the assumption is that the problems

24     would be resolved.  That's, of course, rather speculative.

25             MR. JORDASH:  I suppose it's --

Page 2547

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I mean, being close to the ones you have problems

 2     with can resolve problems but can make them worse as well.  I mean,

 3     that's -- I don't know whether this is a medical matter or not, but ...

 4             If I do not meet the people with whom have problems they usually

 5     do not get any worse.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  My family is the same, actually.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm just trying to understand what we can

 8     expect and what is medical and what is just common human experience, and

 9     that is -- of course, I can imagine that if -- if you resolve all your

10     personal problems, if you have a psychiatric problem, it might be better,

11     I mean, I don't need a doctor for that to tell me that.  At the same

12     time, the issue might not be whether good developments in one's personal

13     life may have a beneficial outcome on their psychiatric state that -- but

14     would we then also be again in your own background would that make it

15     worse?

16             I mean, there's a lot of speculation.  There's a lot of

17     assumptions to which I'm not yet confident that the medical profession

18     could give -- could give answers unless the answers would go in all

19     directions.  I can expect you to would say, if this is the case then it

20     would be better.  If that's the case, it might be worse and whether we

21     are talking about this or that.  We just don't know.

22             MR. JORDASH:  There is -- I understand what Your Honour's saying

23     and I'm not going to pursue the point.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you whether the Stanisic Defence insists

25     on -- insists on examining Dr. Rowell, and we were informed that he'll --

Page 2548

 1     if at all, he can comment on the report of his colleague that it would be

 2     very little.  The Chamber's not very much inclined with this report to

 3     seek to further examine Dr. Rowell, but if the Stanisic Defence thinks

 4     that's the appropriate way to proceed, then the Chamber will consider up

 5     to a certain moment whether it's -- it provides any answers which would

 6     assist us, and if it would not provide us with such answers in the first

 7     five minutes, then it would not be provide us with such answers in the

 8     minutes to follow either.  So we'll --

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Can I just consult with --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, could I just raise one more possible

14     question and if I may then leave it with Your Honours to decide whether

15     that's a pivotal issue for you, and it's the issue of how, given what

16     Dr. Rowell has read in relation to Mr. Stanisic's condition, how likely

17     is it that within a two-week period or two- to three-week period that

18     there would be any real deterioration in the accused's medical condition.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, Mr. Jordash, we are not going to say what are

20     the pivotal issues for us.  You bring your case as you wish.  As I said

21     before, if you do not insist, the Chamber, certainly in view of the

22     report it has received, doesn't expect that much.  If you take a

23     different position, if you think that it's nevertheless worthwhile to

24     take the time with Dr. Rowell, and if you think that you really can

25     produce any further statements which would bring us any further, you have

Page 2549

 1     the first five minutes to -- to prove that such a thing can come out, and

 2     if not then the Chamber considers that the answer that he would not

 3     really be in a position to comment on what his colleagues reported,

 4     and -- his colleague reported and that most likely he has little to say

 5     about it would be the final statement on the matter.

 6             I leave it to you.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I think we have to, from the Defence

 8     perspective, be super cautious then and call doctor -- the doctor to be

 9     questioned on that issue since we see it as the pivotal issue.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And let's just check whether at this moment

11     Dr. Rowell is available or not or would it be only later.  And as again I

12     said, if the first five minutes result in, I can't say that or I wouldn't

13     comment on that or I have insufficient information, then it's really

14     done.

15             Dr. Rowell will be available later today and most likely here in

16     the courtroom.

17             So then I move on to the next matter which is the practicalities

18     of the examination of the next witness.  The next witness enjoys

19     protective measures, being face distortion and voice distortion and

20     pseudonym.

21             Now, we already experienced last time that there are problems in

22     having the audio available for Mr. Stanisic.  That problem has not been

23     resolved.  That problem will be resolved, but the technicians need the

24     winter recess to put in to place all the technical facilities which allow

25     Mr. Stanisic to receive audio, whether distorted or original, in a

Page 2550

 1     language he understands.

 2             We have several options at this moment.  The first option is that

 3     we decide that the testimony will not be given in public.  We would then

 4     make it closed session and then we do not need the voice distortion any

 5     further, which would also mean that at a later stage only the transcript

 6     could be made public, not the audio, not the video, because it would be

 7     undistorted.  It would be the real voice of the witness.  That is quite a

 8     price to be paid.

 9             The second option is that Mr. Stanisic, of which we do understand

10     that he understands some English, either listens to the English booth,

11     which of course is not distorted, or that he reads from the screen the

12     transcript which gives the English text of the testimony.

13             I must say that I have and the Chamber has not yet been fully

14     informed about the level of mastering the English language by

15     Mr. Stanisic.  I'm not aware of it.  If we would proceed in this way, the

16     full audio and video also in his own language would be available to

17     Mr. Stanisic soon after the hearing.

18             The third option, of course, would be that Mr. Stanisic decides

19     to attend the proceedings in this courtroom.  I would say the last weeks

20     the medical reports always have been that Mr. Stanisic is able to be

21     transported to the courtroom and to attend court here.  He has chosen not

22     to do so.  Well, we are here facing some consequences of that decision.

23             I'd like to hear from the parties how they wish to proceed, and

24     since the public character of the trial is involved as well, it's not

25     only that Mr. Stanisic but Mr. Simatovic bears the consequences of our

Page 2551

 1     decision and so does the Prosecution, but as the most interested party

 2     and perhaps the party who could give the key to the solution, I invite

 3     you, Mr. Knoops and Mr. Jordash, to give your views on the several

 4     options we have, briefly, which would be the best to pursue.

 5             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honours, could we first have a small break to

 6     confer with Mr. Stanisic before we make a decision on his behalf?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Meanwhile, we could hear from the other

 8     parties.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.  The Prosecution can think

10     of no other alternatives other than those set out by the Chamber and

11     would submit that the reverse order, namely the last one is obviously the

12     most ideal, followed by the second one where Mr. Stanisic would hear the

13     testimony in English, and as a final solution the possibility of having

14     the session in private session with only the transcript being made public

15     at a later date.

16             I'm not sure if the Chamber has explored with the technical

17     people whether they would be able to, after the fact, put on voice

18     distortion, but I myself do not know the answer to that question.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I have thought about it, and I have not discussed it

20     with our technical people.  Unless we get a quick and a clear yes, it's

21     no -- it's of no -- it doesn't make sense to further explore it, because

22     the next witness to appear will testify in closed session anyhow, and

23     after the recess the matter will be resolved.  So unless we get a clear

24     and immediate yes, we should not further investigate the possibility

25     because it would take us the whole afternoon and it's not what we could

Page 2552

 1     afford at this moment.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  While the Stanisic Defence is

 3     consulting with Mr. Stanisic, a very much related problem -- a very much

 4     related problem and one I would ask the Chamber to address with the

 5     technical people, is that we have been informed earlier that it is

 6     impossible to do a videolink witness white the videolink is being used

 7     with Mr.  Stanisic.  I would ask the Chamber to perhaps explore with the

 8     technical people whether changes to the system can be made over the

 9     winter break.  The Prosecution will be applying for the taking of some

10     evidence via videolink for a couple of elderly and infirm witnesses that

11     we don't believe are able to travel to The Hague, and that application

12     should be submitted next week before the winter break.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's videolink with the former Yugoslavia.

14             MR. ZEC:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's -- I take it that you -- you know that

16     we need usually a little bit over a week to prepare for that.  An

17     application should be made, reasons to be given.  We'll then hear from

18     the other parties whether there's any -- that goes the usual way of

19     motions.

20             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I intend to do that next week for

21     the witnesses that we intend to call at the end of February.  So

22     hopefully there is enough time for that.  But just to see what the

23     Chamber is talking about the technical limitations of the videolink, one

24     of the limitations we've been told about --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean that we have then the practical problems of

Page 2553

 1     two videolinks at the same time?

 2             MR. GROOME:  Correct, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's perhaps also something for the Stanisic

 4     Defence to think about, but -- yes, two videolinks.  We need more screens

 5     at our desks.  Yes.

 6             Mr. Knoops -- Mr. Jordash.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, having spoken to Mr. Stanisic,

 8     Mr. Stanisic makes two points which is, one, that notwithstanding the

 9     medical evidence, he's choosing to stay in the video room because he

10     perceives that the logistics of bringing him to court would tire him out

11     more and the trial sessions may have to then be shorter, and so he's

12     doing what in his mind he sees as something which will assist in keeping

13     the trial moving.

14             And the second point is relating to the first, that he would be

15     content for this witness to be heard -- for him to hear this witness in

16     English and listen to the audiotapes at a later stage.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And not to give up the public character of the

18     trial.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Indeed.  That was his concern too.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  In view of the suggested solution, Mr. Petrovic, any

23     further comments, because that's of course where the Simatovic Defence

24     would lose the public character of the trial, but that seems now to be --

25     at least Mr. Stanisic does not oppose against --

Page 2554

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the option that the

 2     Stanisic Defence team has proposed, I believe, is the most useful and

 3     technically doable, and I think that we should proceed in that manner

 4     today.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber decides that we'll proceed with the next

 7     witness with face and voice distortion and a pseudonym.  This follows

 8     from the earlier decision on protective measures by another Trial

 9     Chamber, which actually means that Mr. Stanisic can follow the

10     proceedings in English audio.  He has a screen on which he can read the

11     English text, and in view of the fact that he has expressed his

12     preference to proceed in this way, the Chamber will follow that

13     suggestion.  And again, full video and audio in his own language will be

14     available very soon to Mr. Stanisic.

15             Then in view of any other procedural matter -- if not, then,

16     Madam Usher, you're invited to escort the witness into the courtroom.

17     Could I remind all parties that they should switch off their microphones

18     when the witness answers a question.

19             Whenever any portion of the evidence or even in the beginning

20     pseudonym sheets, et cetera, would create any risk of revealing the

21     identity of the witness to the public, then the parties should ask for

22     private session.  Is that clear?

23             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  And if I may introduce to the

24     Chamber Mr. Amir Zec, who will be taking the evidence of the next witness

25     on behalf of the Prosecution.

Page 2555

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Zec.

 2             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we have to move in private session right away

 4     or not?

 5             MR. ZEC:  Not necessarily.  Before we start, today we're going to

 6     talk about Zvornik, and we have in our binder of maps, map 27 we would

 7     like to tender into evidence.

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour if we could go into private session, I

12     can --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll do.

14             MR. GROOME:  -- get my current thinking on that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2556











11 Pages 2556-2557 redacted. Private session.















Page 2558

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Don't repeat those words, please,

15     because it reveals already an aspect which we -- which we kept

16     confidential.

17             If you want to -- could you produce or strike out just the

18     irrelevant part.  And if you add to that your initials, then it is clear

19     that it was you who did it and not someone else at a later stage.

20             Yes.  Madam Usher, could you assist.

21             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, if it please the Court, I will conduct my

22     examination in B/C/S.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

24                           Examination by Mr. Zec:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam.  Madam, can you see the piece of paper in

Page 2559

 1     front of you?

 2        A.   Yes, I can.

 3        Q.   Can you see -- can you see your name on that piece of paper?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   Is this your name?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   Do you also see the date of birth on that piece of paper?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, after this sheet is shown to the parties,

10     we would then admit it into evidence under seal.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It has already been shown to the parties.

12     Mr. Registrar, this would be what number --

13             MR. ZEC:  For that I would like to ask the witness to sign the

14     paper if it's appropriate.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Practice is different in different courtrooms, but

16     at least --

17             MR. ZEC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Madam -- Madam JF-007, could you please sign the piece of paper

19     in front of you.

20        A.   [Marks]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P110 under

23     seal.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P110 is admitted under seal.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Zec.

Page 2560

 1             MR. ZEC:

 2        Q.   Madam JF-007, whenever I put a question to you, could you please

 3     wait for a few moments and give me time to finish my question and then

 4     you start answering.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. ZEC:  [Previous translation continues] ... because I'm going

 7     to deal with prior evidence of this witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  May I suggest that -- you said you would want to go

 9     into private session since that's not on the transcript, and it is

10     because you started putting your question before the answer had been

11     translated.  So the instructions for the witness, take them seriously

12     yourself as well, Mr. Zec.

13             We turn into private session.

14             MR. ZEC:

15        Q.   Madam, do you remember that you already testified --

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2561











11 Page 2561 redacted. Private session.















Page 2562

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

20             MR. ZEC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Madam JF-007, did you provide a statement to the investigators of

22     this Tribunal on the 29th September 1996?

23        A.   Yes, I did.  I provided a statement.

24        Q.   Before your evidence in the Milosevic case was the 1996 statement

25     read out to you, and did you explain some of the parts of the statement

Page 2563

 1     in the addendum to that statement provided on the 23rd September 2003?

 2        A.   Everything was clear to me.  I provided accurate answers, and I

 3     speak the truth to this very day and nothing but the truth.

 4             MR. ZEC:  I would like ask that 65 ter 5194 with ERN number 2 --

 5     02299395 to 02299400 be called up on the screen, please.  And of course

 6     no broadcast.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear.

 8             MR. ZEC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Madam JF-007, did you have an occasion to review your 1996

10     statement and the addendum to that statement provided in 2003 before you

11     came to give evidence today?

12        A.   Yes.  I looked at everything.

13             MR. ZEC:  Madam Registrar, if you can scroll down on this English

14     version.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam JF-007, do you see before you on the

16     screen something?  Can you recognise your signature on what you see on

17     the screen?

18        A.   Yes, I can.

19             MR. ZEC:  Can we please go now to last page of this document.  If

20     you can scroll up.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam JF-007, do you recognise the signature?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   Whose signature is that?

24        A.   It's mine.

25             MR. ZEC:  Could now the Prosecution call 65 ter 5195 with ERN

Page 2564

 1     number 03365020 to 03365021, and if we can go to the second page, to the

 2     bottom.  And of course no broadcast for this document as well.  If we can

 3     go to second page.  Can we blow up little bit.

 4        Q.   Madam JF-007 --

 5             MR. ZEC:  Please scroll down.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Look at the screen once again.  Do you recognise

 7     the signature on this piece of paper?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Whose signature is it?

10        A.   It's mine.

11             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders the

12     statement of this witness dated 27, 28, and 27, 29 September 1996 [sic]

13     as the 65 ter 5194 and the addendum statement dated 3rd September 2003,

14     65 ter 5195 under seal.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

16             Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 5194 will be Exhibit Number

18     P113 under seal, and 65 ter 5195 will be Exhibit Number P114 under seal.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Both are admitted under

20     seal.

21             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, at this point the Prosecution tenders also

22     three associate exhibits to this 92 filing.  They are 65 ter 2 -- 2827

23     and 2828 under seal, and Exhibit 65 ter 5196.  And also, I would like to

24     inform the Chamber that Stanisic Defence did not have any objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And for the -- I do not hear of any objections from

Page 2565

 1     the Simatovic Defence, so therefore these two documents can be MFI'd.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, exhibit number -- 65 ter 2527 will

 3     be Exhibit Number P115 MFI, and 65 ter 2828 will be Exhibit Number P116

 4     MFI, and 65 ter 5196 will be Exhibit Number P117 MFI, all under seal.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Could I just have on the

 6     screen not to be shown to the public for one second the redacted version

 7     of the addendum.

 8             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, if there's any confusion these are

 9     exhibits associated to 92 ter filing, so they're not statements.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm aware of that.  Is this the -- this is not

11     the redacted version, is it?  I'd like to check the redactions, or is

12     this the --

13             MR. ZEC:  There is not -- Your Honour, there are no redactions on

14     the exhibits.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, they're all admitted under seal.  And you have

16     no public versions?  The MFI'd ...

17                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I was just a bit confused about the numbering and

19     what the documents were because they were not all shown on the screen,

20     but I do understand that there's no redacted version, or you do not

21     intend to tender a redacted version of the addendum.

22             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, we will provide -- we will provide

23     redacted versions to the Registry.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  But I was a bit mistaken when I said

25     they to be MFI'd, because these were exhibits that should be admitted

Page 2566

 1     into evidence.  We'll deal with it later.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I made a mistake.  P115, P116, and P117 are admitted

 4     under seal.

 5             MR. ZEC:  And, Your Honour, you were right.  I didn't ask that

 6     statement and addendum to be admitted, redacted version and public

 7     version, so we will do -- we will provide the Registry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll deal with that later then.  Please

 9     proceed.

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, just clarification on page 20 in today's

13     transcript.  Exhibit P number 115 is make -- made -- there was a

14     reference to a 65 ter 2527.  It should be 2827.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby corrected.

16             MR. ZEC:  And also the last exhibit which was admitted, P117 is a

17     public version.  It's not under seal.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll have a look at it and then we'll most

19     likely change the status.

20             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam JF-007, in your statement of 1996, you

22     talk about an incident that took place on the 9th of April, 1992, at

23     around 10.00 when a group of soldiers stormed your shelter and took the

24     men out.

25             On page 3, you say, and I quote:

Page 2567

 1             "Some ten soldiers stormed the premises wearing camouflage

 2     uniforms, woolen hats on their heads, and threatening us with

 3     long-barrelled rifles.  They had masks with slits for the eyes and mouth,

 4     and some of them wore black gloves with the fingers cut off.  By their

 5     dialect, I concluded that they were from Serbia."

 6             When you gave that statement in 1996 to the investigators, you

 7     showed them some photographs -- or, rather, the investigators showed you

 8     some photographs, and I would like to show you one of those photographs

 9     now.

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. ZEC:  Madam Registrar, if we could have 65 -- I'm sorry, it's

12     now P117 up on the screen.  It should be page 11.  Can we go to previous

13     page?  It should be with ERN 00400125.  I'm sorry, 00400152.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam JF-007, when you saw this photograph in

15     1996, you said, and I quote:

16             "The masks that these soldiers are wearing are identical to the

17     soldiers that came to our basement."

18             And that is on page 5 of that statement.

19             My question to you today is this:  When you look at this

20     photograph now, do you have any doubt at all that these are the identical

21     masks, just like the soldiers wore who took your menfolk out?

22        A.   Yes, they are.  And also those --

23        Q.   Now, if you look at the photograph, can you tell us what building

24     this is that they're in?

25        A.   I think it's the mosque.

Page 2568

 1        Q.   How do you -- are you able to recognise that?

 2        A.   By the -- looking at the carpets and the stairs going up to the

 3     minaret.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I'd now like to show you a video.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Counsel.

 6             MR. ZEC:  [Microphone not activated] 4529 -- I'm sorry, the

 7     Prosecution will play a clip from 65 ter 4592.  This is a video-clip from

 8     video-tape with ERN V000-0534, and the clip starts at the time code

 9     00:29:55 and goes up to 00:31:30, and I would like to stop this clip at

10     00:31:11.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before it will be played, Mr. Petrovic.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Simatovic Defence

13     objects to the use of this video with this witness.  The video contains

14     elements which have nothing to do with the testimony of this witness, and

15     we'll be able to see that if you look at the video.

16             First of all, there's something from an unknown location, then

17     there's a location in Brsadin which is Eastern Slavonia October 1991,

18     then some footage from November 1991, the Serbian guards staff, some

19     training centre, et cetera.  So I object to the use of this video if it

20     has any other purpose except to ask the witness whether she can recognise

21     an individual on the footage, and she'll find it easier to do that

22     looking at the photographs being shown, the photographs attached to her

23     statement.  Now, if the Prosecutor wants to use this video for any other

24     purpose and in any other way, then I consider that there is no link

25     between that video and this witness and nothing that this witness can

Page 2569

 1     tell us will relate to that link so I'm -- I am objecting to the video

 2     being shown.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's a conditional objection.  I do

 4     understand, because not under all circumstances you object.  It depends

 5     on what questions will be put in relation to ...

 6             Mr. Zec, could you respond to the objection.

 7             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, the video will be played for the witness

 8     to -- for identification.  She will say what she can recognise, and

 9     I'll -- I -- it seems to me it will be helpful for the Court.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It is about persons.

11             MR. ZEC:  Including persons.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So the objection does not stand, I take it, Mr. Zec,

13     because it's not about where it is, when it is, but about persons.

14             Therefore, the video may be played.

15             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, just very brief description.  This is a

16     clip containing a footage from Eastern Slavonia in August 1991.  And for

17     the benefit of the booth, this is the transcript of clip one.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             "MB:  In an area close to the Osijek front line, these irregulars

20     who call themselves the Serbian Tigers are practising what a short time

21     ago they were actually doing - the capture of Croatian-held villages.

22     They are separate from the army, but usually take its orders.  No peace

23     plan can work unless it has their approval and, at the moment, their

24     commander is talking peace.  This force is the likely foundation of a

25     Serbian Army:  It is better trained, better motivated, better turned out

Page 2570

 1     than the regular troops with whom it has a rather tense relationship.

 2     Yet under the peace plan, the irregulars would either be disbanded or

 3     asked to serve as policemen alongside the Croats they are now fighting

 4     against.  To them, that's on the edge of the unbelievable.

 5             "ZRA:  Big problem is, and the only problem - we don't trust each

 6     other.  That's true.  We can't trust them and they can't trust us any

 7     more.  We are going to prepare ourselves because we do know that they are

 8     going to attack us.  So we are going to defend these people here again.

 9     That's what I think personally.  I don't believe much in this peace.  I

10     would like to believe 100 per cent, but as I told you, we are going to do

11     our best to keep this peace and keep Mr. Cyrus Vance satisfied."

12             MR. ZEC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Madam JF-007, can you tell us what this footage shows?

14        A.   It shows that Arkan tried allegedly to make the peace, but that

15     was just a trick, because on the 8th of April, he was in Mali Zvornik, in

16     the hotel there, and that's (redacted).

17     You can see that hotel across the Drina River, and allegedly he wanted to

18     contribute to peace, that they should hand over their weapons, that there

19     should be calm, but all that was just a trick.

20        Q.   Now, you mentioned one particular person.  That means that you

21     recognised him on the video, did you?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   Can you tell us what those soldiers were doing there?

24             MR. KNOOPS:  Can the question be more specified, please.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean what the soldiers were doing on the

Page 2571

 1     video-clip?

 2             MR. ZEC:  Correct, Your Honour.  I withdraw that question.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. KNOOPS:  Whereas the Defence objected against the line of

 5     questioning, the Prosecution clearly announced that it would use the clip

 6     only for identification.  The events on the clip go back to 1991.  The

 7     witness has not knowledge on the events in 1991.  At the least there is

 8     no foundation for it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The last question was withdrawn, Mr. Knoops.  Let's

10     see what other questions there are, because I could imagine that if

11     the -- if -- I'll refrain from commenting at this moment since we're in

12     open session.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Zec.

14             MR. ZEC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Madam JF-007, could you see this footage on television?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you answer the question?

17             MR. ZEC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Madam JF-007, can you hear me?

19        A.   Yes, I can.

20        Q.   I was asking you, this footage that we saw earlier on, could you

21     see that kind of footage on television?

22        A.   Yes, I did see it.

23        Q.   When?

24        A.   In 1992.  It was at the beginning of April.

25        Q.   Do you know which television channel or station that was on?

Page 2572

 1        A.   The Serbian television.

 2        Q.   Madam JF-007, we saw these soldiers wearing masks over their

 3     heads.  To the best of your recollections, the soldiers that stormed your

 4     basement, were they wearing masks like that or similar masks?

 5        A.   Yes, one -- masks like that.  You could just see the slits for

 6     their eyes and mouth.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting my

 9     learned friend, Your Honour, but this is leading the witness as far as I

10     can see the way that question was formulated.  It's a leading question.

11             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, we all saw these mask on the clip, so I

12     can go step-by-step.  That is no --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, by showing it on the clip and then to

14     say, "Is this what it was," is, of course, leading, but at the same time,

15     Mr. Petrovic, have you ever seen some woolen thing on someone's head with

16     where -- well, it's with the eyes, which looked any different from what

17     we see here?  I would say it's rather a superfluous question, because if

18     the question would not have been put to the witness, that's what would

19     have been on my mind as what the witness has described.  So let's -- or

20     have you ever seen any other -- they call them balaclavas, I think.

21             MR. PETROVIC:  [No interpretation]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So there we are.  Useless question, useless

23     intervention.  Perhaps useless decision as well.  Please proceed.

24             MR. ZEC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Madam JF-007, on this footage we saw soldiers wearing masks over

Page 2573

 1     their heads.  To the best of your recollections, did the soldiers who

 2     stormed your basement have masks like that or similar ones?

 3        A.   Exactly the same ones like this.  Black with slits for the eyes

 4     and mouth.  Exactly the same ones.  And if you were to ask a child, a

 5     child could tell you that and explain what they were wearing, that that

 6     was the case.  Any child you happened to ask would say the same.

 7             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders into

 8     evidence 65 ter -- Exhibit 54929 [sic].

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's the video, is it?

10             MR. ZEC:  Correct, Your Honour.  And on the transcript it should

11     be 4529.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection?

13             MR. KNOOPS:  Mr. President, no objection except for the text of

14     the British reporter because that relates to opinion evidence.  So that,

15     in our opinion, should be redacted.  Otherwise, no objection to the

16     tendering of the video-clip.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, apparently the objection is based on

18     the thought that what the --

19             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Your Honour.  It's not about an objection.

20     It's just to alert the Court that Mr. Stanisic requests to go to the

21     bathroom.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps it's -- anyway, it's time for a break.

23             MR. JORDASH:  He's content for the proceedings to continue if --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then we'll continue, although wouldn't

25     it be wise --  we said three times five quarters of an hour, half an hour

Page 2574

 1     break.  That would be approximately this moment.  But let's perhaps first

 2     deal with the -- deal with the objection, although ...

 3             Mr. Knoops, apparently the objection is based on the comments to

 4     be taken for the truth of the content of that opinion of the journalist,

 5     and the redaction to be made both on the video material, and what exactly

 6     are the words you're so concerned about?

 7             MR. KNOOPS:  No, Your Honour.  It's just a small text spoken by

 8     the British journalist when he explains about the strength of the army,

 9     et cetera.  I believe now the Prosecution intends to tender the document

10     just for identification purposes.  That it should not be proper that such

11     a comment which relates to opinion evidence should be included in the

12     document.  So the Defence suggests that Prosecution is allowed to tender

13     the video-clip in it's entirety except for those two or three lines which

14     relate to this opinion evidence given by this British reporter on

15     military equipment, et cetera.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I -- one second.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I've been listening to the English.  Has the text

19     you referred for the booth to -- to portions of the transcript?  I didn't

20     follow whether it has been translated and whether it appears -- whether

21     the English text appears on the transcript at this moment.  I'm just

22     trying to find it.

23             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, the -- the clip itself is in English, so

24     the reporter is speaking English, and I think it was captured on the

25     transcript.

Page 2575

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I see it.  I see it.  Video-clip played.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your mike again, Your Honour.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Your objection is denied, Mr. Knoops, primarily for

 6     the following reason:  If the witness says that this is what she watched

 7     on television, then at least we should know what she watched on

 8     television.  It would even be beneficial to know to what extent her

 9     opinion or whatever she thought may have been influenced by what she saw

10     on television.

11             Now, if there's any concern that on the basis of what this

12     reporter says that the Chamber would take it for that reason for the

13     truth of its content, the Chamber is not -- not to say that under all

14     circumstances we cannot exclude from the possibility that if it was

15     perceived at that moment by a journalist, that if that fits in well to

16     other matters we might not ignore it, but certainly not to accept matters

17     on the basis of what apparently is the opinion of one single journalist.

18     Therefore, the objection is denied.

19             Mr. Registrar, the video-clip would be?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that would be exhibit number P118.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  May I just check because -- and verify that

22     the French booth has translated all the words spoken.  I would have to

23     switch to the French channel in order to find the answer.

24             Because I think we -- we practiced this earlier, the procedure

25     for any video played, any video with text, is the following:  The booth

Page 2576

 1     should be provided with a transcript of the words spoken.  Since the

 2     spoken language is often very quick, translation will be done

 3     exceptionally on the basis of the written transcript if it goes too

 4     quick, and then one of our translators, one of the interpreters, follows

 5     whether what is transcribed reflects what is said, whereas the other

 6     interpreter translates the words at that time then read by him or her.

 7             There is a risk that we have an incomplete French transcript in

 8     this respect.  We'll verify that during the break.  We'll have a break,

 9     and we'll resume at 10 minutes past 4.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, please proceed.  And I think -- I still

13     have to give a decision on admission of the video.  I explained why the

14     objection was denied, but I don't think we had admitted the video already

15     in evidence.

16             Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The video will be Exhibit

18     P118.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and is admitted into evidence.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. ZEC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Madam JF-007, can you hear me?

23        A.   Yes, I can.

24        Q.   In your evidence you said that you found shelter in your cellar a

25     few days before the 9th of April, 1992.

Page 2577

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, if I may just -- we took a break,

 3     Mr. Knoops, at the time when Mr. Stanisic needed to be absent.  I don't

 4     see him being -- having returned.  I do not know whether that's --

 5     whether there's any -- there we are.

 6             Mr. Stanisic, I just noticed that you had not yet returned, so we

 7     took a minute to wait until you were present again.

 8             Mr. Zec, you may proceed.

 9             MR. ZEC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Madam JF-007, during that period could you hear rifle shots

11     across the town?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   During the same period before you found shelter and after that,

14     did you have an occasion to see troops, tanks, and other such things

15     moving around the town of Zvornik?

16        A.   Yes, I did see tanks.

17        Q.   I would like to show you another video-clip.

18             MR. ZEC:  Madam Registrar, the Prosecution calls video-clip

19     65 ter 4508, starting at the time code 00:02:33.  It goes to up 00:30:00,

20     and this is a BBC report from 1992.

21             For the benefit of the booth, this is transcript clip number 2.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam JF-007, can you see the beginning of the

23     clip on the screen?

24        A.   I can't see myself.

25        Q.   What do you see on the screen then?

Page 2578

 1        A.   I can see houses.

 2        Q.   Do you see a river?

 3        A.   Yes, I can see a river in front of the houses.  Several houses

 4     and above them a hill.

 5        Q.   Do you recognise the town in the photo?

 6        A.   It's Zvornik.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us from which perspective are we seeing Zvornik in

 8     this photo?

 9        A.   From Serbia.  The photo was taken from Serbia.

10             MR. ZEC:  I would like to play the clip now.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And channel 5 I usually receive French translation,

12     but for the last ten lines I haven't heard anything, so I would like to

13     verify whether there's any technical problem.

14             MR. ZEC:  Can you play the clip.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I still -- on channel 5 I do not receive any --

16     apparently there has been a problem over the last 15 lines.  I think that

17     Mr. Zec just verified with the witness whether she could -- whether she

18     could see on the screen what seems to be the opening scene of the video

19     footage.  That is a river as the witness said taken from the Serbian side

20     before the houses.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. ZEC:  Okay.  Can we play the video now, please.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             "Reporter:  Tanks crossed the river into the town and although

25     the situation there is confused, it seems that the newly independent

Page 2579

 1     Bosnians have lost control of another part of their country.  Their

 2     president complained of aggression by the Serbs."

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we restart.  I do not hear any French

 4     translation on channel 5.  I don't know what is happening, but ...

 5                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we verify whether now the French translation

 7     is -- yes, I do hear you now.  [French spoken]

 8             Which creates a bit of a problem.

 9             Could I have a look at what you distributed for the -- for the

10     booth as video-clip 2.  I do understand that it's all right now.  Then

11     could the video-clip be played on -- from the beginning again.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             "Reporter:  The civil war spread this morning to Zvornik on the

14     banks of the River Drina.  Serbian irregulars have threatened to capture

15     the town unless the Muslims gave up their arms.  Eventually, it was the

16     federal army which moved in.   ... although the situation there is

17     confused, it seems that the newly independent Bosnians have lost control

18     of another part of their country.  Their president complained of

19     aggression by the Serbs."

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems that the sequence of the portions of the

21     video are mixed up in what has been provided to the booth.  I heard

22     translation at least now of page 34, line 25, up to and including page

23     35, line 3, and then it continues:

24             "Although the situation there is confused, it seems that the

25     newly independent Bosnians have lost control over another part of their

Page 2580

 1     country.  Their president complained of aggression by the Serbs."

 2             Although I think I heard portions of this already earlier, but we

 3     now at least have a more or less complete transcript.  Please proceed,

 4     Mr. Zec.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.  Microphone

 6     for the counsel.

 7             MR. ZEC:  I will repeat.  I would like to ask witness some

 8     specific questions about some specific portions of this video.  The first

 9     portion is at 00:13 of this particular clip.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam JF-007, do you see a photo or an image on

11     the screen in front of you?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Can you see the river?

14        A.   Yes, I can.

15        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber what river it is?

16        A.   It is the Drina River, and you can also see Serbia.

17        Q.   According to what you remember, the two soldiers, what side of

18     the Drina are they on?

19        A.   They're in Serbia.

20        Q.   And Zvornik -- and Bosnia-Herzegovina should be on the other

21     side?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. ZEC:  The second portion I would like to show to the witness

24     is on 00:27 -- 24 seconds of this clip.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam JF-007, do you see a bridge on the screen?

Page 2581

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Do you recognise the bridge?

 3        A.   This is the Karakaj bridge.

 4        Q.   Is it true that this bridge connects Mali Zvornik and Zvornik,

 5     meaning Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders into

 8     evidence 65 ter Exhibit 4508.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Are there any objections?  And that is?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit Number P119.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  65 ter -- is that the video?  That's the second

12     clip.

13             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, we will tender the clip, video.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  And since there are no objections,

15     apparently, Mr. Registrar, P119 is admitted into evidence.

16             Mr. Zec, I'm still asking myself is there any dispute about this

17     bridge being the Karakaj bridge?  Is there any dispute about -- would the

18     case have been any different if these two soldiers would have been on the

19     other side of the river?  I'm trying to understand what I'm listening to

20     and what is in dispute and what is not in dispute, and I take it that at

21     the time the war was reported on television, but I mean, if it had been

22     on the other side of the bridge would it have changed anything in the

23     case in the other side of the river?

24             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, during the trial it will be more clear the

25     reason why we're showing this particular clip.

Page 2582

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we'll see.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. ZEC:  I would like now to play another clip which is 65 ter

 3     4508, and this one is starting at time code 00:05:03 and goes up to

 4     00:08:08.  I will stop at time code 00:07:20.

 5             And for the benefit of the booth, it is transcript with clip

 6     number -- number 3.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             "Martin Bell:  Serbian irregulars in action in Zvornik, a town

 9     that used to be mixed, and used to be peaceful.  Today, it wasn't either.

10     These were not men of the Yugoslav army, but of the most disciplined of

11     the Serbian militias under commander Arkan.  They were mopping up the

12     last of Muslim resistance.  The Bosnian authorities, mainly Muslim, were

13     driven out of the town.  They put their total dead at at least 300.  That

14     may be an exaggeration, but casualties were certainly heavy.  The Serbs

15     are now doing in Bosnian what they did last year in Croatia which is on

16     an argument of self-defence to extend their control into formally mixed

17     areas.  In fact, they're making Greater Serbia happen.  In a village 2

18     miles south of Zvornik, we came upon the human calamity which is the

19     practical result of all this.  Two thousand Muslims are stranded and

20     struggling to get out.  They spoke of the fighting they'd left behind

21     them, the murder and hostage taking which went with it.

22             "Unknown Man:  Terrible things are happening now.  They have been

23     happening since two, three days.  It's a terrible terrible terror which

24     has been made, and which is being made right now.  You can hear even now

25     some shells.

Page 2583

 1             "Reporter:  ... refugees waiting for rescue.  The artillery

 2     barrage was creeping towards us in the villages on the Muslim side of

 3     Zvornik.

 4             "Interpreter: [Voiceover]  We don't have any arms ...

 5             "Unknown Man: ... they are firing at us.

 6             "Reporter:  He begged [indiscernible] to help them against the

 7     aggression of the Serbs and the Federal Army.  The cry as we leave is

 8     again for help as quickly as possible, and the applause is only because

 9     we are the first sign they've had in days that anyone out there cares

10     about their plight.  Numbers are difficult to estimate, but in single

11     file, on mountain parts, and great columns on the wider tracks, it's

12     possible that as many as 20.000 people are on the move, most of them by

13     foot.  These have been walking for two days.  They had gone 18 miles, had

14     at least another 20 to go along this trail of tears.  They were heading

15     for the safety of a Muslim area ..."

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It's now that the French translation has completed,

17     Mr. Zec, and even parts that could not -- apparently not be transcribed

18     are now translated and on the French channel.  I couldn't repeat the

19     words, but apparently there's more on the transcript you provided than

20     what was transcribed now.

21             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It will later be completed.  That's always the

23     problem with spoken text and video.  Please proceed.

24             MR. ZEC:  Yes, Your Honour.  My understanding was that we

25     provided to the booths exactly portions we want to play and exactly that

Page 2584

 1     parts but transcripts --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It could be that it goes so quick that transcribing

 3     it here in court is almost impossible.  Have you provided the transcript

 4     also to our transcriber in court?

 5             MR. ZEC:  I believe so.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes from the English booth

 7     that the tape stopped before the end of the paragraph that was

 8     transcribed.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, apparently more text has been given to the

10     booth than that was played.  We're not going to resolve this right away,

11     but I insist on great accuracy in this respect.  Please proceed, Mr. Zec.

12             MR. ZEC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Madam JF-007, did you recognise the area or the place where the

14     refugees had gathered?

15        A.   It could only be Snagovo or the area leading towards Josanica.  I

16     personally wasn't there.

17        Q.   How far is Snagovo from Zvornik approximately?

18        A.   Maybe 7 to 9 kilometres.

19             MR. ZEC:  Again, I would like now to show to -- to witness some

20     specific portions of this video, and I will ask specific questions.  So

21     the first portion I'd like to show is on -- in this clip at 00:27.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam JF-007, do you recognise the place where

23     this shot was taken?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Where is that?

Page 2585

 1        A.   From the department store in the direction Bire [phoen].

 2        Q.   In Zvornik?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel, microphone, please.  Microphone for

 5     the counsel.

 6             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] The name of the street was Bire.

 7             MR. ZEC:  So next portion I would like to show to the witness

 8     is -- portion is on 00:24.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam JF-007, do you recognise the place where

10     this shot was taken?

11        A.   It's in the centre.

12        Q.   Could you please repeat?

13        A.   Centre.

14        Q.   The centre of Zvornik?  How do you know that?

15        A.   I recognise the mosque, the buildings there.  I recognise all.

16     This is in the direction of the hospital.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this 65 ter 4508,

19     which is a video-clip.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  Yes, Mr. Knoops.

21             MR. KNOOPS:  With the exception that we object to the

22     introduction of the place called Snagovo, because it wasn't in the

23     evidence previously released by the Prosecution, and the witness was not

24     able to establish a link between that video-clip and her direct

25     knowledge.  She literally testified that she wasn't there and she assumed

Page 2586

 1     it was Snagovo.  Above that, it's -- it was not early in the evidence.

 2     There was no foundation for the introduction of that city and the alleged

 3     crimes there.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, I leave it to you whether you want to

 5     further find out about it or I don't know how important it is for you.

 6             MR. ZEC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Madam JF-007, when you mentioned the village where refugees had

 8     gathered and when you said that it was Snagovo, how did you recognise the

 9     village?  If you want me so, I can bring the photo back.

10        A.   I could recognise the village because I had gone through Snagovo

11     that way before the new motorway to Tuzla was built, and most of the

12     people fled through that area.  They took that road, went up to the

13     forest, and then proceeded from there.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Does the objection stand?

15             MR. KNOOPS:  In so far that's -- the objection also relates to

16     the fact that this is new evidence.  It was never introduced by the

17     Prosecution that Snagovo would be part of the witness evidence.

18             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, this goes to the deportation, and it's

19     showing people moving out.  I just asked the witness if she recognised

20     the village where the people are and she provided her answer.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.  Mr. Registrar, the video

24     would receive.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the video would be Exhibit Number

Page 2587

 1     P120.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             Witness, you were seeking -- is there anything you'd like to say?

 4             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] May I?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 6             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] When we lived in Zvornik, then the

 7     place was called Snagovo.  Later on they renamed it, and the clip did

 8     depict what was known as Snagovo.  I could recognise it.  I know it well.

 9     There were a lot of things in the photo that I recognised as being in

10     Snagovo.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for this clarification.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Zec.

13             MR. ZEC:  And, Your Honour, this concludes my examination.  Thank

14     you very much for listening.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zec.

16             What will be the sequence of cross-examination?  Stanisic Defence

17     first?

18             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, also in your own interest, Dr. Rowell

20     will be available on from approximately 5.30, and he'll be available for

21     a relatively short period of time.  I do not know -- I made a mistake.

22     He'll be available after 6.00, approximately 6.30.  He might be a bit

23     earlier and he is limited in his time.  May I take it that

24     cross-examination will be concluded by then, also looking at the

25     Simatovic Defence?  Let's get started and see how far we come.

Page 2588

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. KNOOPS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness JF-007, you'll now be cross-examined by

 4     Mr. Knoops, and Mr. Knoops is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

 5             MR. KNOOPS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Knoops:

 7        Q.   Witness, thank you very much for joining us today despite the

 8     circumstances.  First of all, could we call up P119, please, the

 9     video-clip, again.  I believe it's not P119.  It's P120.  Yes.  Could --

10     if it could be stopped, please, there.  Can it be stopped there, please.

11             Witness, the video-clip mentions here:

12             "Eventually it was the federal army which moved in."  Can you

13     read it?

14             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the witness could not read that.  I can

16     imagine that she may have heard it.

17             The commentator said, "... it was the federal army which moved

18     in," for your information.

19             Now, your question Mr. Knoops.

20             MR. KNOOPS:

21        Q.   Witness, do you agree that the federal army moved in to Zvornik?

22        A.   The Yugoslav, you mean.  The Yugoslav Army.

23        Q.   Yes, indeed.

24        A.   Yes, that's right.

25        Q.   Do you agree that the -- the tank which is still on the video

Page 2589

 1     screen was a tank from the Yugoslav Army?

 2        A.   I'm certain.  One hundred per cent.

 3        Q.   Did you see more tanks of the Yugoslav Army on that particular

 4     day?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   Could you give us a rough estimation as to how many tanks of the

 7     Yugoslav Army you saw that day?

 8        A.   Three.

 9        Q.   Witness, is it correct that those tanks were accompanied by

10     soldiers of the Yugoslav Army?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   So it's fair to say that the Yugoslav Army was part of the attack

13     on Zvornik; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.  Yes.

15        Q.   Witness, is it correct that Mr. Dragan Nikolic was a JNA

16     commander?

17        A.   Yes, he was.  And I was -- I personally went to see him.

18        Q.   How did you know that he was -- belonged to the JNA?

19        A.   Because he and his soldiers were put up in a company in Karakaj,

20     on the premises of company in Karakaj.

21        Q.   Could you indicate to us where Karakaj is -- is -- exactly where

22     it is?

23        A.   Karakaj is when you go from Tuzla, Bijeljina, towards Zvornik.

24     Karakaj comes first, and then 3 kilometres later you reach Zvornik.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 2590

 1        A.   It's where there's a Serbian cemetery.  That's where Karakaj is.

 2     There's a Serbian cemetery there.

 3        Q.   And is it your evidence that the soldiers from this company in

 4     Karakaj were involved in the attack on Zvornik?

 5        A.   Yes, they were.  One was going to kill me.

 6        Q.   Were you able to recognise uniforms of the JNA?

 7        A.   Green camouflage.

 8        Q.   You just testified that you spoke to Mr. Dragan Nikolai [sic]?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10        Q.   During this conversation did he indicate to you that he was in

11     fact involved in the attack on Zvornik?

12        A.   Yes, he did, yes.

13        Q.   Witness, is it correct that your late husband worked for a

14     company in Zvornik?  Sorry.  Maybe we could go into closed session at

15     this point.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Private session and closed session is more or less

17     the same here.  We turn into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2591











11 Pages 2591-2594 redacted. Private session.















Page 2595

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

20             MR. KNOOPS:

21        Q.   Witness, upon your return to Zvornik, whom did you see in

22     Zvornik?

23        A.   I returned on the eighth day.  I just went to search for some

24     trace of my -- but I didn't go back to live there nor could you go back

25     to live there.

Page 2596

 1             We reached Karakaj first, and then we went to see Dragan Nikolic

 2     and he sent us off to Zvornik.  He told us to go to Zvornik.  First of

 3     all he said -- well, (redacted)

 4     was her name, and he said to us, "If they didn't have any

 5     weapons, then they probably were in battle somewhere.  If they had

 6     weapons," we said "they wouldn't have been in the shelter, they would

 7     have been in the woods like you."  And he said, "Well, we'll look at the

 8     list.  We have a list, and we'll look to see who was alive, who was

 9     captured, and who was killed," and he ordered a soldier to go and bring

10     those papers.  He looked at them and then he said, "He's not on the list,

11     not among the captured or the killed."  And he said, "They must have

12     escaped somewhere and taken to the woods."

13             Now, how could they have taken to the woods when they surrounded

14     them and put them up against a wall?  But anyway he said, "Go and talk to

15     the president."  And we went to talk to Grujic, and Grujic said that we

16     could go to the flat --

17        Q.   Witness, I apologise.  I think that goes beyond the question.

18     Sorry to interrupt you.  My question is:  Is it correct that upon your

19     return to Zvornik, you saw JNA soldiers killing people in Zvornik?  Is

20     that correct?

21        A.   There were dead people all over the place, our people, women,

22     children.  They were all over.  Yes, they did kill them, yes.  They tried

23     to kill us, too, when we went to look for our -- our folk.  That same

24     man, Dragan, sent a truck, and there were four of them, and they got to

25     the building before we arrived on foot.  So we came across one of these

Page 2597

 1     four at the entrance to the house by the staircase, and the other three

 2     were taking things out of the car, out of the truck, various material and

 3     whatever.

 4        Q.   Madam, would -- I don't want to be impolite, but my question is

 5     simply:  Do you recall that after your return to Zvornik you saw JNA

 6     soldiers still around in Zvornik killing civilians?  If you could please

 7     answer the question with yes or no, that might be helpful.  Thank you.

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. KNOOPS:  No further questions for this witness, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Knoops.

12             Mr. Petrovic, will it be you?

13             Witness JF-007, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic.

14     Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic, and you'll see him to your

15     left, standing.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness JF-007, I would, first of all, like on

20     behalf of Mr. Simatovic and this Defence team to express our condolences

21     for the great loss that you had suffered in the situation that you were

22     in and that you testified about here today, and I'm just going to ask you

23     a few questions that are just directed at elucidating some of the

24     important circumstances, circumstances important to these proceedings and

25     not anything else, not to question anything else in any way, not to

Page 2598

 1     question and challenge the tragedy that happened to you that day.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we move into

 3     private session, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2599











11 Pages 2599-2611 redacted. Private session.















Page 2612

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Witness, if you'd like to say something about the -- about the

14     matter we just discussed before we went into private session, then I

15     think it would be good to return into private session.  Is it about this

16     or is it about anything else that you'd like to address the Chamber?

17             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I would like to say something

18     about the government and authorities with regard to the claim that I

19     provided a statement to the authorities.  Why don't you invite --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  One second.  We return into private

21     session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2613











11 Pages 2613-2619 redacted. Private session.















Page 2620

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, we're back in open session.

Page 2621

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 2             Witness JF-007, you've answered all the questions that were put

 3     to you, that were questions put to you by the parties and questions,

 4     although only a few, by the Bench.  The Chamber fully understands how

 5     difficult it must be to come and tell about events you have described,

 6     and of course which must have a huge impact on your life.  The Chamber

 7     would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for giving

 8     this testimony, and we wish that you have a safe return home again.

 9             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Thank you, and I'd like to add

10     something if I may.  May I be allowed to say something?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Say a word, if it is an appropriate word in a

12     courtroom.

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That is clear enough from what you said that you do

23     not recognise that.  If there are any further questions in relation to

24     that, the Chamber will carefully look at it.  We have -- until this

25     moment we have not finally decided on any such matter.

Page 2622

 1             Anything else?  If not, I wish you --

 2             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] They can ask my government, my

 3     government, not the Serbian government, whether I gave a statement or

 4     not.  Just that, because it's painful for me that question, just as the

 5     fact that my children were killed is painful to me.  I don't like people

 6     saying that I gave a statement to some government or some authority.  So

 7     that is what I have said and will say again and again.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for adding this.  You're invited to follow

 9     Madam Usher, and again, a safe trip home again.

10             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Knoops would like to put a few

13     questions to the doctor who is replacing Dr. Eekhof.  The doctor would

14     arrive at approximately 6.00, and he has to leave rather quickly.  Would

15     a break of 20 minutes do as far as you're concerned?  And I take it that

16     once we have heard the doctor, that the session would be relatively

17     short, that is, depending on what answers we get, anything between five

18     and 12 or 13 minutes.  Would a short break do so as in order to have the

19     doctor not to wait too long?

20             THE ACCUSED STANISIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I

21     wanted to ask you to give me a 15-minute break so that I could rest a

22     bit.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll have a break, and we'll resume at 25

24     minutes past 6.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 6.08 p.m.

Page 2623

 1                           --- On resuming at 6.30 p.m.

 2                           [Dr. Rowell entered court]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Dr. Rowell.  First of all, thank you

 4     for coming so quickly to the courtroom.

 5             May I again inquire with the parties whether there's any need to

 6     take a solemn declaration from the doctor?  We haven't done until now.

 7             MR. GROOME:  The Prosecution does not believe there is, Your

 8     Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I see that Defence agrees with that.

10             Dr. Rowell, Dr. Eekhof has made a -- two reports, the first one

11     dated 20th of November, the other one dated the 2nd of December, 2009,

12     which were attached to a motion for provisional release filed by the

13     Stanisic Defence.  The Stanisic Defence, although being aware that you

14     were not the doctor who made these statements, nevertheless today said

15     that it would insist on putting further questions to you.

16             The Chamber had inquired whether you would be available or not.

17     The response we got is that it might be very difficult for you to comment

18     on reports written by one of your colleagues and that you might have very

19     little to say, but the Chamber, where the Stanisic Defence insisted on

20     putting further questions to you, the Chamber did not want to deny such a

21     request.  Therefore, Mr. Jordash, I take it will have some questions for

22     you.  Whether there will be any follow-up questions by the others is

23     still to be seen, but I see Mr. Jordash on his feet.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Doctor, for coming, and we do appreciate

25     your attendance here.  Could I just ask a few questions, and I won't be

Page 2624

 1     long, and I do, of course, appreciate that you're coming into this late.

 2             Firstly, could I just try to understand how familiar you are with

 3     Mr. Stanisic's medical file.

 4             DR. ROWELL:  I have read his file today and a few months ago when

 5     I previously acted as reporting medical officer.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  And did you on that first occasion or this occasion

 7     have the opportunity to speak to any of the treating doctors or to

 8     Dr. Eekhof?

 9             DR. ROWELL:  I briefly spoke with Dr. Eekhof today.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Were you able to speak to Dr. Eekhof about the

11     basis for his opinion?

12             DR. ROWELL:  No.  I've only read the records in the medical file.

13             MR. JORDASH:  But you weren't able to speak to him -- what did

14     you speak to him about?  You didn't speak to him about the --

15             DR. ROWELL:  I spoke to him about his frozen motorbike, which was

16     stuck at the gaol, but that's all.

17             MR. JORDASH:  I saw him as well, actually, had the same

18     conversation.

19             You will have observed in the medical file, I take it,

20     Mr. Stanisic's steady improvement since returning to UNDU on the 4th of

21     May, 2009.

22             DR. ROWELL:  Yes.

23             MR. JORDASH:  And steady -- is it right that that steady movement

24     has been both in relation to his physical illness and his psychological

25     illness?

Page 2625

 1             DR. ROWELL:  He's had improvement in both from the personal

 2     aspect since I saw him the first time and more recently.  The most

 3     significant improvement is psychological.  It appears that his physical

 4     illness is relatively stable.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  And have you read the two reports filed by

 6     Dr. Eekhof, one dated the 20th of November and one the 2nd of December?

 7             DR. ROWELL:  Yes, I have.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  I'm just going to refer to the one on the 20th of

 9     November, 2009, and Dr. Eekhof's view -- or I should say Dr. Petrovic's

10     and Dr. Eekhof's view that solving some of these important problems that

11     Mr. Stanisic has reported to the doctors will lead to diminishing stress

12     and consequently lead to improvement of Mr. -- I've just been reminded

13     that if we're going to veer into the issue of Mr. Stanisic's personal

14     issues, we --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Personal circumstances are not for public.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Exactly.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we move into private session.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2626











11 Pages 2626-2628 redacted. Private session.















Page 2629

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Finally, Doctor, this:  Having observed his --

 5     Mr. Stanisic's medical records and the improvements which have taken

 6     place over the last seven months, are you able to give the Court any

 7     indication as to the solidity of those improvements?  What I mean is

 8     this:  We've asked for provisional release for four weeks.  What are the

 9     risks given this medical progression of a deterioration, significant or

10     otherwise, in the space of four weeks?

11             DR. ROWELL:  Unfortunately, I don't think I would be able to

12     speculate with any degree of certainty.  He is definitely better

13     psychologically since a change in his medication, and perhaps a slight

14     change in approach at the detention unit, and he certainly has a greater

15     capability to deal with stressors and his day-to-day life in a way.  So I

16     think that he is more capable than what he has been in the past.  Whether

17     that overwhelms him or not, the only way to tell would be to see.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Would your answer be the same if I put to you a

19     period of two weeks?

20             DR. ROWELL:  I don't think it would make any difference.  I don't

21     think I could really comment knowing him and his capacity to -- to deal

22     with those issues.  If things went well, then the time could be longer.

23     If things went poorly right from the start, then the time would be

24     shorter.  So even the time is -- you'd have to wait and see.  You'd have

25     to try it and see.

Page 2630

 1             MR. JORDASH:  And the last -- the last question, I think --

 2     perhaps it hypothetical, but I'll try.  Would any deterioration be

 3     observable, and could that be reported immediately to the Trial Chamber?

 4             DR. ROWELL:  Well, I think it would be observable, yes.  He would

 5     regress from his current state.  The person who was making the assessment

 6     would have to assess him beforehand to have some sort of reference value

 7     against which to judge whether he's coping well or not coping well.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Are you able to offer any sensible or safe -- no.

 9     Let me start that again.

10             Would reporting several times a week deal with that eventuality,

11     picking up observable signs of deterioration so that action could be

12     taken at the Trial Chamber level?

13             DR. ROWELL:  I'm not sure what you mean, but if he was regularly

14     assessed, you could tell whether this activity was causing him to

15     deteriorate and could be stopped.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thankfully your answer was clear than my question.

17     Thank you very much, Doctor.  I've got nothing further.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, any questions?

19             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we try to keep it short because we know the

21     doctor has an appointment.

22             MR. GROOME:  I'm do my best, doctor.

23             Doctor without going into the nature of the personal problems the

24     record records you as saying "He, meaning Mr. Stanisic, claims that they

25     are a significant component and it's very difficult to say otherwise."

Page 2631

 1             Can I take from that that a large part of the assessment of the

 2     role that the personal problems play in Mr. Stanisic's overall health is

 3     Mr. Stanisic's own opinion that they do?

 4             DR. ROWELL:  Yes, and no.  When -- as a clinician, the first time

 5     I see a patient and I have relatively little knowledge of their

 6     background, I have to go on what they tell me.  That is the primary

 7     indication.  The more you get to know somebody the greater you've seen

 8     their behaviour in different circumstances, the more you're able to tell

 9     whether what they're saying is correct based on your own experiences.  So

10     given that I have only see him relatively briefly, I'm obliged to accept

11     his opinion as being correct.

12             MR. GROOME:  Have you yet formed an opinion of your own in this

13     matter on the particular point?

14             DR. ROWELL:  Yes.  He claims that it is significant for him, and

15     I have no reason to believe otherwise.  I also have no reason to not

16     accept Dr. Eekhof's opinion and Dr. Eekhof has seen him quite

17     extensively.

18             MR. GROOME:  Now, how reasonable is it to expect that an

19     individual can resolve what I believe you've characterized as very

20     complicated personal problems?  How reasonable is it to expect that a

21     person can resolve such during a short visit?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, could we add to this question to what

23     extent the medical professional knowledge would enable you to express an

24     expectation that an individual can resolve the problems as you qualify

25     them?  So it should be clear from your question, Mr. Groome, and then it

Page 2632

 1     would be my question as well, that what the medical profession, whether

 2     they could say in advance, "Well, if you go home it will be better or

 3     perhaps worse."  Is there -- your professional knowledge, could it tell

 4     you whether perhaps a direct confrontation with the problems would make

 5     it -- would be at risk to make it worse, whereas of course everyone

 6     always hopes that matters are going better?  I'm asking your assessment

 7     not as a normal human being but as from your medical professional point

 8     of view.

 9             Mr. Groome, would you -- would it still be your question

10     framed -- if phrased this way?

11             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.  Could you please answer the

13     question.

14             DR. ROWELL:  I don't think from that perspective that anybody can

15     say whether he would get better or get worse, and I don't think that is

16     the medical issue.  From the medical perspective all I can say is whether

17     he is sufficiently psychologically capable of dealing with the issues,

18     and whereas a few months ago I would have said that he was not in a

19     position to be able to deal with those issues, now I would say that he

20     was.  I cannot tell you.  I wouldn't even speculate as to whether this

21     would help or not help, but I would suggest that given he is so

22     enthusiastic about addressing his issues in this way, there is a much

23     higher likelihood of it succeeding.  If he was avoiding this issue than

24     there would be a higher likelihood of it failing, so in combination of

25     his psychological state of mind, which is a medical assessment, and his

Page 2633

 1     relative enthusiasm, which is just a general assessment, I would say

 2     there is a relatively good chance of things going well but ultimately it

 3     is still speculation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Any follow-up question in this respective?  I would

 5     have one but I'd rather put it in private session.

 6             MR. GROOME:  I'll defer to the Chamber, Your Honour.  I was going

 7     to ask a slightly different question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we turn into private session again.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2634











11 Page 2634 redacted. Private session.















Page 2635

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One very short question.  When you answered the

17     question put to you by Mr. Jordash on observing any deterioration, what

18     situation did you have in mind, where someone is under constant

19     supervision as he is to some extent in the UNDU, or would it also be the

20     same if someone is at home and perhaps comes to hospital twice a week or

21     for an hour or two hours?

22             DR. ROWELL:  I think any review will be able to assess his

23     immediate mental state, and people can be seen to improve over the course

24     of days or they can be seen to deteriorate depending on the stressors

25     involved.  So if he were to go on provisional release and addressing the

Page 2636

 1     issues that he wants to address caused him a great deal of stress, he

 2     would start to function less well.  He would start to withdraw, and he'd

 3     show signs of that, so it could be seen.  The same could be true in a

 4     detention unit, if there was some stressor that affected his general

 5     level of functioning.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but if he was not under constant supervision

 7     who would then observe the deterioration?  Would you see that if he comes

 8     for one hour every three days?

 9             DR. ROWELL:  A clinical review would do it.  I don't even think

10     it need to be as much as an hour.  Somebody specifically looked at him

11     with -- a medical person with a view to assessing his current mental

12     state, he would tell you whether he was better, worse, or the same than

13     the last time he saw him a few days before.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Groome, any further questions?

15             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

16             Now, Dr. Rowell, in the report that you filed today, you've

17     assessed that there is -- that Mr. Stanisic is healthy enough physically

18     and psychologically to participate in proceedings up to five hours a day,

19     two days a week; correct?

20             DR. ROWELL:  Yes, that's correct.

21             MR. GROOME:  Now, on page 84, line 22 of the transcript, you

22     said:

23             "If things went poorly," and I'm referring to provisional

24     release, "right from the start, then the time could be short."

25             I take from that that you recognise that even if Mr. Stanisic's

Page 2637

 1     medical regime and current psychiatric regime were maintained perfectly,

 2     that there is the possibility that dealing with the personal problems

 3     could cause a deterioration in his overall health; correct?

 4             DR. ROWELL:  Yes, that's correct.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Now, let's put the personal problems to the side and

 6     let me ask you if all the treatments for his physical ailments were

 7     abruptly stopped, how soon would you expect to see some objectively

 8     observable sign indicating a deterioration in his physical health?

 9             DR. ROWELL:  I don't think I could really answer that.  I'm --

10     I'm no expert in the details of his medical condition, and I would need

11     to review his medical notes in a great deal more concern that was never

12     an issue for me.

13             MR. GROOME:  Are you able to say whether it would -- something

14     you would expect rapidly or it would take a number of weeks or months to

15     take place?

16             DR. ROWELL:  Again, I think this is a question that's better

17     posed to his gastroenterologist who would be the primary person to

18     comment on the effectiveness of his medications.

19             MR. GROOME:  Would you be able to offer a view with respect to

20     whether his -- the same question but if his psychiatric treatment were

21     stopped, would you be able to offer an opinion how soon we would see

22     deterioration?

23             DR. ROWELL:  I think it would be seen based on the medications

24     that he's on now over the course of weeks.

25             MR. GROOME:  Several weeks.

Page 2638

 1             DR. ROWELL:  One or two weeks.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Okay.  If there was a deterioration --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at the clock.  You said you would be

 4     brief.  It is --

 5             MR. GROOME:  I just have one more question.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Dr. Rowell missed his appointment already which I

 7     really regret.  Mr. Groome, last question.

 8             MR. GROOME:  If there was a deterioration of his physical and

 9     psychiatric state while on provisional release to the point where it

10     compromised his able to participate in proceedings, are you able to say

11     how long it would take for his physical and/or psychiatric health to

12     improve to a point where he would once again feel comfortable saying that

13     he's able to participate at the same level you've judged him to be today?

14             DR. ROWELL:  I don't think I can -- I can make that assessment.

15     It would all depend on what went wrong, how far backwards he went, and

16     how amenable that problem was to the treatment, which drug and why or

17     which condition and why.  So I really can't say, I'm afraid.

18             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Dr. Rowell.  I have no further questions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The Bench has no further questions for you,

20     Dr. Rowell.

21             We'd like to thank you very much for further -- for the further

22     information you've provided to the Chamber, and we apologise for -- I

23     don't know with whom you had the appointment but the apologies also to

24     that person or persons.  Thank you very much for coming.

25             DR. ROWELL:  You're welcome, Your Honour.

Page 2639

 1                           [Dr. Rowell withdrew]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We are about to adjourn.  I do understand that the

 3     next witness is scheduled for such a short period of time that we could

 4     be confident that his testimony could be concluded tomorrow.  Is that --

 5             MR. GROOME:  That is correct, Your Honour.

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

20                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I gave some instructions to the registrar.

22             Any other matter?

23             MR. GROOME:  Just one brief matter, Your Honour.  At the

24     beginning of today's session, the Prosecution tendered map 27 from its

25     map book, a map of Zvornik.  Although there was no objection, I don't

Page 2640

 1     believe the Chamber has ruled on the matter, so before it gets too far

 2     behind us, I'd ask the Chamber to rule.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, the map is so -- we'll have

 4     to -- I hardly see anything on the map that would assist us in the matter

 5     apart from that Tuzla is -- is on the map.  Apart from that, any other

 6     specific reason why -- I mean, it's the only area that's --

 7             MR. GROOME:  I think it also indicates the border between Serbia

 8     and Bosnia-Herzegovina, so I think it's just to generally orient the

 9     Chamber as to the witness's evidence and the other witnesses that

10     testified about Zvornik.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's fine.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It is -- any objection?

14             MR. JORDASH:  No.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the map will be Exhibit number

17     P109.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P109 is admitted into evidence.  Could we find a way

19     of -- we're now dealing with every single portion of the map admitting it

20     into evidence.

21             MR. GROOME:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I don't understand your last

22     comment.  Would you like the Prosecution to identify which portions on

23     the map we specifically --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Whether we should not deal with those maps

25     whatever -- if they're relevant, just admit them unless there's any sort

Page 2641

 1     of -- so we have the whole series of maps in evidence.  We can look at

 2     them whenever it's -- because now we find maps we're supposed not to look

 3     at it because not being in evidence yet and then we find perhaps

 4     something on it which seems to be relevant for us and then it's not in

 5     evidence.

 6             MR. GROOME:  We're meeting tomorrow morning, Your Honour, and

 7     we'll discuss that and report to the Chamber --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And perhaps make a selection of -- I'm talking

 9     about geographical maps, nothing else.  Not about any other matter.  If

10     you'd come to an agreement on that it would be appreciated.

11             Mr. Jordash.

12             MR. JORDASH:  This is a different subject, Your Honour.  It's a

13     return to the provisional release.  I'm sorry to leap up at this stage

14     but I was going to do that when Dr. Rowell left to --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand -- it's now five minutes past

16     7.00, and we are already asking far too much from our interpreters and

17     therefore tomorrow, from what I understand, we'll have some time left at

18     the normal --

19             MR. GROOME:  I imagine that we will, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will then further hear from you tomorrow.

21     How much time would you need, Mr. Jordash?

22             MR. JORDASH:  Two minutes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Two minutes.  Yes, nevertheless not seven minutes

24     past 7.00 to nine minutes past 7.00 but perhaps tomorrow last two minutes

25     before the first break.

Page 2642

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And of course the Chamber will consider the matter

 3     and will make up its mind before the recess, as far as I can see now, and

 4     that would be appropriate, I think.

 5             We stand adjourned, and we'll resume tomorrow, the 15th of

 6     December, at quarter past 2.00 in Courtroom -- I'm just checking.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  In this same courtroom.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.08 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day

11                           of December, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.