1 Thursday, 21 January 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Mr. Usher, could you
6 already escort the witness into the courtroom.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 I am not informed about any procedural matters to be raised at
12 this moment. I notice that Mr. Stanisic is represented by Mr. Jordash
13 today, and Mr. Knoops not being in court. Perhaps I put one thing on the
14 record also in response to what you said, Mr. Groome.
15 As far as following the proceedings by the outside world this
16 concerns, the Chamber is still considering that matter, and the issues
17 being whether summaries should be -- or whether the redacted witness
18 statements should be filed or whether they should be admitted into he
19 evidence, but another option is that summaries are read from witnesses
20 who appear as 92 ter witnesses, which at least gives a clue on what the
21 content of the testimony would be. The Chamber is further considering it
22 and we hope to resolve the matter somewhere early next week.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 WITNESS: WITNESS JF-005 [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then good afternoon, Witness JF-005. I would like
2 to remind you that the solemn declaration that you gave yesterday at the
3 beginning of your testimony still binds you.
4 Mr. Hoffmann, are you ready to continue your
6 MR. HOFFMANN: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. I would ask that
7 we briefly go into private session for one issue.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
9 [Private session]
11 Page 2825 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 MR. HOFFMANN: I would ask that we please look at 65 ter 4944.1,
14 which is a redacted version of this document. The ERN is 0632-6932 to
15 0632-6933. This and the following documents are payment records provided
16 by the Serbian state security. All these four following documents are
17 part of the first bar table motion which was filed by the Prosecution on
18 23rd November 2009
19 At this point in time, I intend to ask a few questions to the
20 witness on those lists as they are part of the first bar table motion.
21 It would be fine with the Prosecution if those documents would be marked
22 for identification so we don't have to discuss their admission at this
23 point in time.
24 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, just to indicate --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. JORDASH: -- we would like to raise an issue about their
2 admission at some stage.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would that be a submission would -- which
4 would also trigger a decision of the Chamber whether or not Mr. Hoffmann
5 is allowed to put questions to the witness in relation to that? You see,
6 we have the procedural part on whether questions can be asked about it,
7 and then the second issue is where this apparently is also part of a bar
8 table submission, whether the admission would be something to be
10 MR. JORDASH: It might. As far as the disclosure has indicated
11 so far, my learned friend has put this list to the witness and the
12 witness has identified one name from the list. If that's as far as the
13 questions go, then we have certain submissions to make about the
14 relevance of the document. If it goes further, we will probably have
16 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly speak into the microphone or into the
17 other microphone. The interpreters cannot hear. Thank you.
18 MR. JORDASH: We've raised these issues with the Prosecution
19 concerning relevant -- so we don't know where the Prosecution are going
20 to go with this, if they're going to go any further than what they've
21 already done in the statement.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So from what I understand, there is no issue taken
23 yet as to put questions to the witness in relation to these documents,
24 but it may soon be an issue you'd like to raise.
25 Mr. Hoffmann, is this clear to you?
1 MR. HOFFMANN: I do think so. I just want to add that --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's test it in reality. If you start,
3 we'll hear from Mr. Jordash once --
4 MR. HOFFMANN: Yes.
5 Examination by Mr. Hoffmann: [Continued]
6 Q. Witness, could you please look at the document in front of you,
7 the first page, and just tell me if you recognise any of the names listed
8 there as a member of your own Red Beret unit in Doboj in 1992.
9 A. I do recognise quite a few names, but they weren't all in Doboj.
10 Q. I ask you just to read out those names that you remember from the
11 time in 1992 in Doboj, please. Maybe give us the number and then the
13 A. I am absolutely certain only about one person, and that is the
14 first person, Radojica Bozovic, and I'm not sure about Ubiparipovic, who
15 is at number 12, and also number 23, Kusic.
16 MR. HOFFMANN: Can we then please look at the second page of the
17 same document in the original.
18 Q. And, Witness, I would have the same question for the next page,
19 if you recognise any of those names as being members of your unit in
20 Doboj in 1992.
21 A. I've stressed already that I only recognise one name from 1992.
22 As for the others, I'm not certain because 17 years have passed. It's a
23 long period, but, yes, I do recognise the names of individuals who were
25 Q. Again, can you read us out those names with the number?
1 A. Under number 37, that name.
2 Q. Can you read out --
3 A. Zvezdan Jovanovic.
4 Q. Any other name?
5 A. No. I can't remember any others.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, I would ask that this document be
8 marked for identification, and I just want to clarify one issue with this
9 particular document as there are actually no active members on this
10 particular document. There exists no redacted versions, so this document
11 as we have seen it now can be -- be kept public.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
13 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, please forgive my lack of knowledge.
14 This -- the procedure whereby a document is marked for identification
15 is -- is new to me, but as I understand it, it, in this context, would be
16 a situation where the document is marked for identification and then
17 later on an evidential basis is laid for it. That's my understanding --
18 JUDGE ORIE: No, not necessarily. There may be various reasons
19 why a document is marked for identification. For example, that there is
20 an ongoing dispute on admissibility. Under those circumstances, it
21 should be clear what document is the subject of that. Sometimes -- at
22 least it should also be clear what document has been shown to the
23 witness. Whether it finally will be admitted or not, at least it has to
24 be clear on the record that this document on which no decision has yet
25 been taken as far as admission is concerned, what that document is. It
1 is stored in our electronic system. That's the main reason, and again
2 there are sometimes later on sometimes it's withdrawn by that party. It
3 also depends on whether the document is introduced through a witness or
4 whether it's a document which is bar tabled, that is not being introduced
5 through a specific witness. It can be withdrawn. It can be that at a
6 later stage, for example, no translation is produced for the document.
7 It could be any reason, but it is a document which has been used in court
8 and on -- which -- where no decision has yet been taken on admission or
10 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour, for that indication.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. JORDASH: Then perhaps for the record I should indicate our
13 objection to this and the subsequent documents which relate to what the
14 Prosecution term DB lists, and that's twofold. One is that this is a
15 document which purports to be payment to a unit called the PJM. We've
16 had no notice in the indictment, in the pre-trial brief, or the opening
17 speech as to the relevance of the PJM, Special Police Unit. As I
18 indicated yesterday, the indictment states that the Red Berets were the
19 JATD and then later on the JSO. That's the first objection.
20 The second objection is as follows: A lack of notice as to the
21 significance and alleged probative value of the vast number of names on
22 this list and countless other lists with countless other names.
23 In our submission, what the Prosecution intend to do is to
24 produce these lists over the next few months during their case. They
25 intend to show them to witnesses and then say to the witness, "Do you
1 recognise these names as members of the Red Beret?"
2 Now, I put aside the fairness of that process for a moment, but
3 the real complaint is this, that we have had no notice of who the
4 Prosecution say were Red Berets. We are going to be drip-fed that
5 information through witnesses as they are called to testify and through
6 the vehicle of proofing notes. This is particularly significant, because
7 in effect the names of alleged Red Berets constitute something close, if
8 not the charges in this case, because what the Prosecution want to do is
9 say Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Simatovic trained Mr. X, and Mr. X then went and
10 committed forcible transfer as a member of a unit call the Red Berets.
11 So each time that is established through the evidence, it creates
12 a new and distinct basis for conviction; in other words, in our
13 submission, a charge. If that is what the Prosecution are going to do,
14 then we are entitled, we submit, to those charges being disclosed in
15 advance before the case started, and in any event, at some point so that
16 they should be marked on the indictment and not led in the evidence in
17 this way.
18 Those are my submissions.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that -- and the Chamber will further
20 consider the objection to these documents either being admitted as bar
21 table documents or through a witness or both.
22 MR. JORDASH: The objection relates to -- to both.
23 JUDGE ORIE: To both. We'll consider it, and of course the
24 Prosecution will first have an opportunity to respond to that, but since
25 at this moment it's only sought to be marked for identification, we -- I
1 consider this to be a kind of giving pre-notice of the objection you'd
2 like to raise, and you might refer to that at a later stage.
3 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could we -- could you please assign
5 a number to this document and order it to be marked for identification.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P155, marked for identification, Your
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Mr. Hoffmann.
10 MR. HOFFMANN: I would then ask that we please see 65 ter 4950.1
11 on the screen, another payment record, this time in redacted version.
12 The ERN is 0632-8426 to 0632-8436.
13 Q. And, Witness, I have the same question here. If you -- when you
14 look at the list, if you do recognise any of the members of the Red Beret
15 unit from Doboj in 1992 on this list. If so, please read out the names.
16 A. I recognise Radojica Bozovic, and I repeat the same names as
17 before, Dragan Ubiparipovic, Njegoslav Kusic, and that's about it.
18 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honour, I would have this document as well
19 marked for identification, please.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P156 marked for identification, Your
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Looking at our earlier decision in relation to
24 these documents, I think the instruction was - but I had to be reminded
25 on it, Mr. Hoffmann, it honest to you - that when used in court the
1 redacted versions would be used, and then it comes to tendering to offer,
2 if applicable, a public redacted version as well as a confidential
3 unredacted version of the document. This, despite of my earlier
4 observations in relation to having all kind of material in evidence which
5 is -- which doesn't add anything to the unredacted version, but since we
6 have decided this, I would like to invite you to upload and that then
7 should be -- we'll have to consider whether that then receives the same
8 exhibit number or not, but also the -- both the redacted and the
9 unredacted version.
10 I'll discuss with Madam Registrar whether it should be under the
11 same number or not, but it's clear that this document which you presented
12 as a redacted version, that we need an unredacted version as well.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Since it seems to be more practical to have a
15 separate number for the redacted version, the uploaded document which was
16 provisionally assigned Exhibit P156, that was the redacted version, I
17 take it, then you're invited to upload into e-court an unredacted version
18 of this document as well --
19 THE REGISTRAR: It's already there.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It's already there, which would then receive number
21 P157, I take it, Madam Registrar. You confirmed it. Which is marked for
22 identification but should remain under seal.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honour. I would then ask that we
25 see the next document, 65 ter 4965.1. It's ERN 0634-5808 to 0634-5818,
1 and I ask that we go to page 5 in the original document in B/C/S, and in
2 English to page 4.
3 Q. Witness, the same question again. Do you recognise any of the
4 names on this list as being members of your former unit of Red Berets in
5 Doboj in 1992?
6 A. The names are the same that I mentioned before, Radojica Bozovic,
7 next to number 1. Loncar. That would be it. I'm not sure about the
8 other names, so I cannot really be certain. I can't say anything.
9 Q. Can you give us the full name of Loncar?
10 A. Full first and last name. I don't know. I know that -- them by
11 their last name, so I would need to look to see that it's Nikola Loncar.
12 I know them by their last names, but not by their first names.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. HOFFMANN: And I would ask that this be marked for
15 identification as well, the one that we've just seen was the redacted
16 one, and there is also the unredacted uploaded.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assign numbers first for
18 the redacted version.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Redacted version will become Exhibit P158, and
20 unredacted P159, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Both marked for identification, the unredacted
22 version to remain under seal.
23 Mr. Hoffmann, I see that in the translation it says concluded
24 with number 19, which comes a bit as a surprise if you have only have ten
25 names on the list. And if I look at the original, whether that's 10 or
1 19 may be subject to dispute.
2 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you for your comments. That's absolutely
3 correct. I think this may come from the previous list which actually
4 goes until 19. I may assume that the interpreters copied that comment on
5 this page. We may ask for a revision of the translation.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's be -- before we send everything back, it
7 isn't much to the substance of this document. If everyone would agree
8 that the number appearing last and closest to the stamp is number 10,
9 then I think it would not result in any unfairness if we would work on
10 that basis. It seems not to be a matter of great substance for the case.
11 I'm looking at -- Mr. Petrovic is nodding yes. You're nodding
12 yes as well, Mr. Jordash. Mr. Hoffmann as well. I'm looking at my
13 colleagues. Everyone reads 19 in the original as being 10.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honour. And then the last one of
16 those documents would be 65 ter 4966.1. The ERN is 0634-5788 to
17 6034-5799, and I ask that we go in the original to page 6 and page 3 in
19 Q. And, Witness, once you see that list appearing, I have the same
20 question for you, if you recognise any of the names of your former
21 colleagues in the Red Berets Unit in Doboj in 1992?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Would you be so kind to repeat the names that you recognise on
24 this lame -- on this list, sorry.
25 A. Radojica Bozovic, Nikola Loncar. I'm not sure about Subotic.
1 I'm not sure. I've been thinking about that from the beginning, from the
2 first list.
3 Q. And just for the record, his full name would be?
4 A. Davor Subotic.
5 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, I would ask that those documents
6 would be marked for identification.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the unredacted version will be --
9 the redacted version will become P160 and the unredacted P161, both
10 marked for identification.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The unredacted version to remain under seal.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. I will now be playing two short video-clips from 65 ter number
15 4787. Both clips are taken from the first two and a half minutes of the
16 original tape, video ERN V000-3551. There's no spoken text on those
17 clips, hence we have not provided any transcripts.
18 We will start the first clip at 30 seconds of the original tape
19 and we'll stop at 35 seconds.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. HOFFMANN:
22 Q. Witness, do you recognise the map shown in this clip?
23 A. I do, yes.
24 Q. Can you tell the Court what this map is?
25 A. The map indicates where the camps were.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the second thing
2 the witness said, something "centres."
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the second part of your
4 answer. You said that --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were the marks -- markings
6 where the camps and the training centres were.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. HOFFMANN:
10 Q. And just for the record, Witness, do you know where this map is
11 hanging? Where's that room?
12 A. It's in the memorial room.
13 Q. Is that the same map we saw yesterday in the earlier video, which
14 is Exhibit P61?
15 A. Yes. It's a little bit changed, though, because this was
16 recorded afterwards when the Kosovo thing was over.
17 MR. HOFFMANN: We continue with the first clip until 43 seconds.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. HOFFMANN:
20 Q. Witness, what are those items in this display case?
21 A. These are items that were confiscated during combat actions.
22 Q. Do you know where these licence plates come from?
23 A. Judging by the numbers, from what I can see, they come from
25 MR. HOFFMANN: We continue the clip until 52 seconds.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. HOFFMANN:
3 Q. Witness, what is the emblem on the helmet and on the piece of
4 paper in this shot at 52 seconds?
5 A. This is Croatian insignia.
6 Q. Do you know how these items were obtained?
7 A. Probably they were found during combat, or they were captured. I
8 really don't know. I wasn't in Croatia
9 MR. HOFFMANN: We continue the clip until 1 minute.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question between, Mr. Hoffmann.
11 Earlier you said these were items which were, I think,
12 confiscated during combat actions. How do you know?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because it's evident where
14 they come from. So our side could probably not have had them, and during
15 the war in Bosnia
16 side such as flags, weapons, and other items.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just to make sure that -- so you consider it
18 likely that they were seized, but you have no actual knowledge of it. I
19 should say confiscated because that's the word you used, but that's your
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sure about that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then again my question: How do you know for sure
23 that these were not, well, let's say relics from past times?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because this was happening in the
25 territory when one was entering Doboj and when one was going towards the
1 corridor. So it wasn't only our units. Other units were also
2 confiscating items.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you know that it was from those times that
4 those items arrived where they are now -- or where are they on this
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that they date from
7 that time, but I'm pretty sure about the manner in which they were
9 JUDGE ORIE: And that is from hearsay and your own experience on
10 how such items are confiscated? Is that how I have to understand your
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] More or less, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: What's the more? What's the less?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let's say that in Kotorsko
15 in 1992 a Croatian flag was seized. There were items that were taken. I
16 don't know if those items ended up in this place or not, but there were
17 such items that were seized.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
20 MR. HOFFMANN: We will continue the clip until 1 minute.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. HOFFMANN:
23 Q. Witness, what are we looking at now in this screen shot at 1
25 A. We're looking at the places where the camps were, the training
1 centres of the Red Berets during the actions in Bosnia and Herzegovina
2 or, rather, Republika Srpska.
3 Q. Just for the record, is this an excerpt of the bigger map we saw
5 A. Yes, of course.
6 Q. Can you please read the names of the four locations in unit -- in
7 this shot at 1 minute out, starting at the top and then going clockwise,
9 A. Doboj, Ozren, Vozuca, Teslic.
10 Q. Is this the same Ozren that you described in your statement as
11 the place you were trained?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And is this the Doboj that you described in your statement as the
14 place the Red Berets had a camp?
15 A. There were no bases. They had camps.
16 MR. HOFFMANN: We continue this clip until 1 minute, 4 seconds.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. HOFFMANN:
19 Q. What is the location we're seeing now, Witness?
20 A. We can see where the unit was located, some kind of command
21 centre in a central location.
22 Q. Why is the emblem different for this place than the previous?
23 A. Probably because the whole unit was withdrawn there.
24 MR. HOFFMANN: We continue the clip until 1 minute 33.
25 Q. One more thing, Witness. Can you please just read out the name
1 of the place that is shown on this screen shot at 1 minute?
2 A. Of course. Kula.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. HOFFMANN: We continue until 1 minute, 33 seconds.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. HOFFMANN:
7 Q. Witness, we have seen a number of locations marked on this map
8 prior to the current still. Do you know where those places are located,
9 in which country?
10 A. These places are in Republic of Croatia
11 Q. And would you please read out the four locations in this shot at
12 1 minute 33, starting in the top left corner going clockwise.
13 A. Bruska, Golubic, Dinara, Knin.
14 Q. And is this the Golubic that you were told was the site of the
15 first training camp?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what is the significance of Knin on this map?
18 A. Probably because it was the capital of the Republic of the
19 Serbian Krajina. There was probably a training centre there as well.
20 MR. HOFFMANN: We do a second clip which starts at 1 minute 54 of
21 the original tape, and then we'll pause again at 2 minutes 1 second.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. HOFFMANN:
24 Q. Witness, what can we see on this shot?
25 A. We see the emblem of the units for special operations.
1 Q. Would you be so kind to read out the wording on this emblem.
2 A. At the top it says "The Republic of Serbia." At the bottom it
3 says "The Section for State Security," and then underneath that it says
5 MR. HOFFMANN: We continue the same clip until 2 minutes 26.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. HOFFMANN:
8 Q. Witness, can you tell the Court where these weapons that we can
9 see on the wall in this screen shot, where these weapons came from?
10 A. A lot of this was seized.
11 Q. And what is the significance of the Red Beret shown at the centre
12 of all those weapons?
13 A. It means that it's much stronger than that.
14 Q. Can you explain what you mean by that?
15 A. It's very difficult to explain. One needs to feel it, but I will
16 try. It means that they are stronger than anything, that the unit as
17 such is stronger than anything.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, I would tender the two clips played
20 into evidence, clips that were produced from the first two and a half
21 minutes of the video Exhibit 65 ter number 57 -- 4787. And just for the
22 record, that video footage dates from November 2001.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? I hear of no objections. Would you
24 like to have the two clips under one number?
25 MR. HOFFMANN: That's perfectly fine with us.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The two clips, Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P162, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P162 is admitted into evidence.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. HOFFMANN: For ease of reference, the Prosecution has also
6 created a file which just contains the eight screen shots that we just
7 saw. This is marked as 65 ter 5208 -- sorry, 5207, and I would tender
8 that for ease of reference as well into evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I take it if there is no objection against the video
10 that the stills from the video are not objected to either.
11 Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P163, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P163 is admitted into evidence.
14 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, I have no further questions to the
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hoffmann.
17 Mr. Jordash, have you arranged a sequence who will start first to
18 cross-examine the witness?
19 MR. JORDASH: Yes, the Stanisic Defence will go first.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Stanisic Defence then.
21 Witness JF-005, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jordash.
22 Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. Can you hear me?
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 MR. JORDASH: Could I just have -- could I just have, please,
3 back on the screen Exhibit P15T -- sorry. I beg your pardon.
4 Exhibit P163, at 43 seconds. The video shot is 162. I beg your pardon,
5 162, at 43 seconds.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You want the video or you want the stills?
7 MR. JORDASH: The still. If it's on a still, it's the box. I'm
8 looking for the box which the witness said was confiscated items.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps it's easier to have the --
10 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, yes, it is.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- to have the pictures. And the box was in the
12 stills, Mr. Hoffmann.
13 MR. HOFFMANN: Yes. That should be the last admitted Exhibit --
14 JUDGE ORIE: 163, and then most likely the first or the second
15 picture, I take it.
16 MR. HOFFMANN: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No. We need one of the other pictures. There are
18 supposed to be seven in this series.
19 MR. JORDASH: It's the box with the licence plates in.
20 MR. HOFFMANN: We have the screen shot from the video now on
22 MR. JORDASH: That will suffice. Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Witness, that's a box with items in it. You don't know where
24 that came from, how that box came to have those items in it, do you?
25 A. As I've already stated, many things during the war were
1 confiscated such as licence plates, different items from the opposite
2 side. So I assume that it did come from there. I mean, in any case,
3 we're not talking about antiques here.
4 Q. You don't know where this box came from, do you?
5 A. I don't have information about that, no.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Are we talking about the box, or are we talking
7 about the items in the box?
8 MR. JORDASH: The box and the items, Your Honour.
9 Q. Am I right? Your answer is you don't know where the box and the
10 items came from. Is that correct?
11 A. No, but it's been explained to me. I assume that that is
13 Q. Who explained it to you?
14 A. We knew amongst ourselves, the members, the more senior, older
15 members and the younger ones who joined, you know. Stories were passed
16 on. Usually we knew what came from where, but we don't have any proof.
17 Q. That's fine then. Let me ask you before I take you to -- through
18 your account. First of all, when in your opinion or knowledge did
19 Bozovic arrive in the Doboj area and base at Mount Ozren
20 A. I don't know exactly when he came. I don't have that
21 information. I know when we arrived.
22 Q. Do you know approximately?
23 A. Sometime in March, April. I don't know. I don't even know
24 approximately. I know when we arrived, but I don't know when they began.
25 Q. When did he leave and take his unit with him?
1 A. A lot of the unit that was trained at Ozren left, but then there
2 were also some either in July or August who took part in the breakthrough
3 of the corridor, but I'm not really sure.
4 Q. When did Bozovic leave? Forget his unit for now. When did he
5 leave the region?
6 A. I've already said it. Sometime in July or August, thereabout.
7 Immediately following the breach the corridor.
8 Q. And who went with him? Did Vuk and Riki leave with him at that
10 A. Yes. Vuk, Riki, and Njegos left with him.
11 Q. What rank was Bozovic when he left?
12 A. We didn't know his rank at the time. We only learned it later
13 on. We didn't know at the time. We just knew that he was in charge of
14 the training centre at Ozren.
15 Q. Did you find out later?
16 A. Yes, I did. I found out later.
17 Q. What did you find out about his rank later?
18 A. That he was a colonel. We learned that later.
19 Q. When was he a colonel?
20 A. I learned what his rank was for the first time in 1996 or 1995.
21 Q. And he was a colonel at that time, was he?
22 A. That's what I was told. He didn't tell us. We just heard.
23 Q. Thank you. Now before I take you to the substance of your
24 evidence, I want to try to make sure we're talking about the same thing.
25 Could you explain your understanding of the term "Red Beret" as was used
1 by you in Doboj? Who were the Red Berets? Can you give us a definition?
2 A. Well, I can try and explain it in my own words.
3 Q. Go ahead.
4 A. This -- it was a group of people who came from Serbia who were
5 working on training the local population so that they can defend
6 themselves in the event that the Muslim forces attacked Doboj. That was
7 the precise definition as far as I can recall.
8 Q. And who was in that group of people, from your knowledge?
9 A. Do you mean how many people there were in the group that had come
10 or how many people there were working with us as far as we knew?
11 Q. Well, you've just told that the Red Berets, as you understand the
12 term, was a group of people who came from Serbia who worked on training
13 the local population. So my question is who was in that group of people
14 who came from Serbia
15 A. When this group of people arrived and -- and got accommodations
16 at Ozren, I wasn't there at that particular moment, but I know when
17 they -- when we came to the camp I know how many people there were and
18 how many people were being trained.
19 Q. Let's not go to who is being trained. Let's just talk about the
20 Red Berets as you've defined them, the group of people from Serbia. Who
21 was in that group as you found out when you went to be trained? Can you
22 give us any names?
23 A. As I already said in my statement, I did not know who Rajo was at
24 the time. Then there was Riki, Vuk, and Njegos.
25 Q. Those then were, in your mind, the Red Berets that you can
1 identify by name; is that correct?
2 A. I can only identify one person by name. As for the others,
3 they -- their names were concealed. We weren't even allowed to ask what
4 their names were. We only learned later on, as far as we were able to
5 find out.
6 Q. What names did you learn later on were part of the Red Berets,
7 the trainers from Serbia
8 A. I'm sure of one name only. As for the other names, I really am
9 not quite certain, and I wouldn't wish here to guess.
10 Q. That's fine. I don't want you to guess either. So the name that
11 you're referring to is Bozovic. That's the only name you're certain of;
12 is that correct?
13 A. Yes. I'm sure of his name, and as I said, as for the others, I
14 really don't want to play a guessing game.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, you said this group came from Serbia. How many
16 were in that group of trainers?
17 A. I've just mentioned what the number of people who trained us
18 were -- was. There was -- there were more people coming, but I am not
19 familiar with them.
20 Q. So I -- I'm sorry to belabour the point, but I want to be clear
21 we're talking about the same thing. So the group of trainers you refer
22 to as the Red Berets consisted of Riki, Vuk, Njegos, and Bozovic. You're
23 not sure about the first three names, but you're sure about Bozovic; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Well, I'm also certain about the other three, but I don't know
1 their first and last names. It's only for Bozovic that I'm sure of his
3 Q. Okay. But my general point being that the group of trainers
4 numbered those four as far as you understood it. That's correct, isn't
6 A. The -- of those who worked with us, who were working with us.
7 Q. "Working with us." Who do you mean when you say "us"?
8 A. I mean the people who were at the training camp.
9 Q. And how many people are you referring to being at the training
10 camp, and what period of time are we talking about?
11 A. Well, we're talking about end of April up until early May 1992,
12 and there were some 30 to 40 men at the camp.
13 Q. Were you the first men to be trained at Mount Ozren
14 of Red Berets?
15 A. No. There was a group before us.
16 Q. Were they trained by the same men?
17 A. I suppose so, but I did not take part in that first group that
18 was being trained, but I can assume -- I can only assume that they were
20 Q. You can assume because you didn't see or hear about any other men
21 from Serbia
22 A. Could you please repeat your question? I'm not sure I
24 Q. Did you hear of any other men from Serbia being involved in the
25 training at Mount Ozren
1 A. I have heard that there were some others, but I don't have any
2 information as to who it was.
3 Q. So after you finished your training in May of 1992 and remained
4 in the Doboj area throughout 1992, you didn't hear of any other name
5 being involved in the training in Mount Ozren; is that right?
6 A. There were quite a few names, but at the time I wasn't really
7 interested in who was there, but, yes, there were quite a few names being
9 Q. Men from Serbia
10 A. I couldn't really say exactly where they were from, because you
11 couldn't really deduce that from their first and last names, whether they
12 were from Serbia
13 So it was very difficult to determine based on that.
14 Q. Well, based on your testimony, you interacted on a regular basis
15 with Bozovic, the head, as you would have it, of the Red Berets. Did
16 Bozovic mention any other name of any other man involved in the training
17 in Mount Ozren
18 A. No one dared even ask anything of him.
19 Q. Not even a man in a special unit like you?
20 A. No, no one. As for the local people who were being trained, no
21 one dared ask any questions of him.
22 Q. Okay. So that's the Red Berets. And was that the name they gave
23 themselves, or was that a name that the population termed that group?
24 A. I don't know who actually gave them the name, but that's what the
25 local people referred to them as.
1 Q. So Bozovic didn't refer to himself as a Red Beret. It was the
2 name that the local people gave him and his group; is that right?
3 A. Yes, for the most part.
4 Q. Well, what do you mean "Yes, for the most part"?
5 A. Well, someone had to explain to the men who these people were. I
6 wasn't there, and I don't know what their names were, but that's how it
7 all began. That's why I said for the most part, but I don't believe that
8 people just dubbed them anything as they pleased.
9 Q. Well, either Bozovic referred to himself as a Red Beret or he
10 didn't. Which is the case?
11 A. He did not call himself that, or he didn't say his name.
12 Q. Thanks. Now, you have testified that you were in a group, after
13 you'd completed your training, known as the JSN; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, the Special Purpose Unit.
15 Q. Who gave the unit that name?
16 A. I don't know who gave the unit that name.
17 Q. How many people in the unit?
18 A. There were about 60 men in that unit.
19 Q. And you testified that the local people also knew that unit by
20 the name Red Berets; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, at the time when it call began on 3rd May 1992, everyone who
22 was there was addressed -- people almost addressed them as Red Berets,
23 because at the time there was a lot of chaos in the town.
24 Q. People addressed them as the Red Berets because there was a lot
25 of chaos in the town. What do you mean by that?
1 A. You misunderstood my reply. Not because there was chaos in the
2 town, but because on the 3rd of May, absolute power was taken by these
3 people that -- and they were addressed as Red Beret. They were called
4 Red Berets as you say.
5 Q. Absolute power was taken by which people? Can we try to be
7 A. At that point in time the Red Berets walked in, together with
8 Bozovic and Milorad Stankovic, they walked into this town of Doboj
9 Q. So Bozovic, Stankovic, Vuk, Rik, and Njegos walked into town and
10 people addressed them as the Red Berets. Is that what you're saying?
11 A. No, that's not what I'm saying. They walked in with their units,
12 the units that were ready at Ozren.
13 Q. Okay. So those men came in with recruits from Ozren, and those
14 groupings became known as -- by the local people as Red Berets; is that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But the official name given to your unit by presumably -- well,
18 let me -- let me break that down. That the official name given to you
19 was JSN. Was there other official names given to other units who had
20 been trained at Ozren?
21 A. There were many units there. Many units were -- had been trained
22 at Ozren, and they acted independently, but who gave them their names, I
23 don't know. I was not in a position to know when this was being done.
24 All I know is that they were assigned to this unit.
25 Q. "All I know was that they were assigned to this unit." What do
1 you mean by that?
2 A. Well, that's when I was assigned to that unit.
3 Q. But your unit consisted of 60 people, as you've told us. What
4 about other units, or were you the only 60 who had been trained?
5 A. No, there were a number of units, but they were all under one
6 command. I was not in a position to receive orders. I could only carry
7 out what I was ordered to do.
8 Q. So how many people in total are we talking about who were trained
9 and who formed other units in May of 1992?
10 A. Let's say, for instance, 150 to 200 men. Maybe more, maybe
11 fewer. That's my estimation.
12 Q. Do you recognise the name "Special Purposes"? Was that a name of
13 any of the units?
14 A. Yes. At this time there were many units, and there were units,
15 Special Purpose Units, all kinds of special units. There were all kinds
16 of units.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I'm looking at the clock. We usually
18 have sessions of 75 minutes. Could you find soon a suitable moment for
19 the break.
20 MR. JORDASH: Certainly, Your Honour. I think one or two
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. JORDASH:
24 Q. Do you recognise the name, Mr. Witness, Petrovo police? Was that
25 one of the units?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The Petrovo Police Special Task Unit? Is that the Petrovo police
3 unit you recall?
4 A. I only recall that there was -- that there were police in
5 Petrovo. They were Special Police.
6 Q. My suggestion to you is that Bozovic was the commander of the
7 Petrovo Police Special Task Unit and that -- the unit he had trained at
8 Mount Ozren
9 A. Well, you could say that if that was the case indeed.
10 Q. Well, I'm asking you. I wasn't there. Was it the case?
11 A. Well, when we arrived up there we were told that this was a unit
12 that would be assigned special tasks. As of May 3rd, 1992, or up until
13 then, very few people knew much, and then on the 3rd of May, 1992, when
14 they entered Doboj, even then very few of the local people who were being
15 trained there knew more than what they were told.
16 Q. Let me just try once more one question, and then we'll see if we
17 can get there.
18 I'm suggesting that Bozovic was the commander of the Petrovo
19 Police Special Task Unit. That was the unit he trained, and it was that
20 unit which became known as the Red Berets by the locals. Is that
22 A. The local people, yes, they referred to them as Red Berets. They
23 called them Red Berets. But the Petrovo police for special tasks --
24 well, there was police in Petrovo, but as for the special tasks, we could
25 have a long discussion here about that term.
1 Q. Let's have a discussion after the break.
2 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash. We'll have a break, and
4 we'll resume at ten minutes past 4.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash - I'm also addressing the Simatovic
8 Defence - could you give us an indication as to how much time you think
9 you'd need?
10 MR. JORDASH: I was anticipating around two more hours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And looking at the --
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think I will need
13 two to three hours, but it's still difficult for me to predict in view of
14 the state of my preparations and also the questioning by my learned
15 friend Mr. Jordash. So I would estimate three hours, but there are these
16 two factors that I have just mentioned that might affect the length of
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
21 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Witness, let me just take you back to a suggestion I made
23 which I want to qualify. I suggested to you that Bozovic was the
24 commander of the special task unit of Petrovo, and my suggestion should
25 have been that he was the commander of the Petrovo police in general.
1 Could that be right?
2 A. I don't have information about who the police commander in
3 Petrovo was. It's not very likely but it's possible.
4 Q. And do you know any information about the structure of the
5 Petrovo police during May of 1992? Do you know if it consisted of a
6 number of units? Do you know its size in terms of personnel and so on?
7 A. I don't have the exact data. I really didn't have any access to
8 such information. I wasn't really part of the command structure.
9 Q. You did say before the break that you could talk about the
10 special task unit. Can you tell the Court what you know about that,
12 A. This is a unit that maintained a kind of law and order in town,
13 and their assignment was to man the check-points during the curfew.
14 Q. Do you know who was involved with that, the name of the commander
15 or the name of any member of that Special Task Unit?
16 A. You mean members who were with me or those who were in the
17 command structure?
18 Q. We're talking about the Special Task Unit of Petrovo. Are we
19 talking about the same thing?
20 A. There was a Special Purpose Unit, but it was not specified as to
21 where it was located. I have a feeling that you're trying to make me say
22 where the unit was. When we entered Doboj, all the units were billeted
23 mostly in Doboj with their bases which were in the surrounding area at
25 Q. Just to clarify, do you know anything about the Special Task Unit
1 of Petrovo? If you don't, we can move on from that subject.
2 A. The Petrovo Special Purpose Unit is a term unknown to me. There
3 was a Special Purpose Unit that was at Ozren. That is something that I
4 have heard of, yes.
5 Q. And when you talk of the Special Purpose Unit at Ozren, you're
6 talking about your own unit that you say you was a part of; is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who was the commander of that unit?
10 A. Lukic was the commander of that unit at that time. He was
11 directly subordinated to the command structure that was most probably
12 located at Ozren.
13 Q. You refer to Stevo Lukic, also known as Bambi?
14 A. No. He was directly subordinated to Bozovic, not to me. I mean,
15 he was nothing to us. Dragan Lukic was the commander of the Special
16 Purpose Unit and --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat the
18 last part of what he said.
19 MR. JORDASH:
20 Q. Could you repeat the last part of what you said, please,
21 Mr. Witness.
22 A. Dragan Lukic who was directly subordinated to the Ozren Tactical
23 Group. I cannot remember what the group was called at the time. It
24 wasn't called the Ozren Tactical Group. Anyway, he was directly
25 subordinated to Bozovic. He received orders from them. In that period
1 from May to June or in May, mostly everyone received orders from Bozovic,
2 including the Ozren Tactical Group, about what they had to do regarding
3 the setting up of the local authority. I don't know how long this period
5 Q. Well, we'll come to the Ozren Tactical Group in a moment. Let me
6 ask you about your relationship with Milan Ninkovic?
7 MR. JORDASH: And I think it's - with Your Honours' leave - best
8 if we go into closed session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, private session is approximately the same in
10 this case respect with face and voice distortion.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 2859-2867 redacted.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 MR. JORDASH:
14 Q. Members of the 4th department of the Special Police were sent to
15 Mount Ozren
16 A. Yes. For the most part, yes, but not all of them were sent.
17 Q. So Ninkovic was responsible for selecting both families of the
19 Ninkovic was responsible for selecting recruits to be sent to
20 Mount Ozren
21 A. Yes, Ninkovic and his men who worked with him.
22 Q. And he was responsible alongside Stankovic who was JNA, who was a
23 member of the JNA; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And together they were responsible for ensuring that the various
1 formations within Doboj police, JNA, and volunteers were sent for
2 training; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, after your training, you suggest that your first assignment
5 was to take over Radio Doboj; is that correct?
6 A. Not only Radio Doboj. We also took control over many other
7 things. The check-points were in the town itself, right in the centre.
8 Q. I'm talking specifically about you, what your job was. You were
9 taken -- you were given an assignment - is this correct - and your
10 assignment was to go, you yourself, with others and take over Radio Doboj
11 and also the Ministry of Defence; is that correct?
12 A. Well, the formulation is correct in parts. So we were assigned
13 to get inside and to actually provide security for Radio Doboj, the
15 Q. And you were responsible for that assignment. You set up the
16 guards, according to your testimony; is that correct?
17 A. No. We organised amongst ourselves who was going to provide
18 guarding and who was going to be at the check-point. I could not be
19 responsible for that at the time, so perhaps this is a misunderstanding
20 or a misinterpretation. I couldn't possibly be the responsible person
21 for such a responsible task.
22 MR. JORDASH: Please, could we turn back to Exhibit P137,
23 paragraph 11 of the B/C/S, please.
24 Q. Have a look at paragraph 11 and find where the statement says:
25 "The buildings were close to each other and I set up guards to
1 guard them."
2 A. It is probably mistakenly written down like that. It's possible,
3 as I said. We've sort of agreed amongst ourselves about the guarding and
4 providing guard details. I can see what is written down in the
5 statements, but -- but we actually agreed amongst ourselves how we were
6 to do things of this nature.
7 Q. Could I suggest that you were given the order to go to the Doboj
8 radio and the Ministry Of Defence by Ninkovic? Would that be correct?
9 A. No, that is not correct. What is correct is that we were issued
10 an assignment to provide security for a small area which was between
11 Radio Doboj and the Ministry of Defence.
12 Q. Mr. Witness, were you given that assignment by Ninkovic?
13 A. No, Ninkovic did not give us that assignment.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann.
15 MR. HOFFMANN: I'm really sorry to interrupt, and this is not
16 about the line the questioning. I'm just not sure what is being
17 broadcast from this statement. It is about the matter of whether we use
18 the redacted version, if it's publicly broadcast, or if it's not publicly
19 broadcast. If it's not, then I have no concern, but I just wanted to be
20 sure about that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's appreciated that you show a level of
22 accuracy for protective measures.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. JORDASH:
25 Q. Let me ask you a bit more about Ninkovic. He lives in -- or he
1 lived in Doboj, didn't he?
2 A. No. He lived in a place nearby, Rudanovci [phoen], not Doboj
3 itself at this time.
4 Q. He had a brother called Pero Ninkovic who lived in the region; is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And he had a son Slobodan Ninkovic who was known to serve as
8 lieutenant for his father?
9 A. I don't know. I just know him as Slobo, and the reason I knew
10 him was that we were very close, physically close.
11 Q. There came a time when Ninkovic took over the Doboj radio --
12 sorry, the TV station; is that correct?
13 A. If you're referring to 1992, at the time there was no TV station.
14 It was only in 1999, in December, that it became operational. Officially
15 it began -- it went into operation in January 2000.
16 Q. Did you hear of an incident where Ninkovic threatened the
17 director of the Doboj radio station, threatened Marko Misic?
18 A. I didn't hear of the incident, not that one. I know when he
19 threatened a journalist.
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the journalist's
22 MR. JORDASH:
23 Q. What was the journalist's name?
24 A. Ozren Jerkanovic [phoen].
25 Q. When did he issue that?
1 A. What do you mean where did he issue that? I don't understand the
3 Q. When did he issue that threat?
4 A. In 2002.
5 Q. Well, on another subject, Ninkovic was the commander of the Mici
6 paramilitary group, was he not?
7 A. Yes, that was his group, and it wasn't called Mici but, rather,
9 Q. Mice. Thank you.
10 Did you know anyone in the Mice paramilitary group?
11 A. I only knew -- it would take me a moment to recall all the names
12 because it's been a long time, but I know one person because we were on
13 very good terms and I was in touch with him up until 2005. His name was
14 Piko Pijunovic.
15 Q. And can you recall any other names of those in the Mice group,
17 A. Not at this moment. I would need some time to recall all the
18 names. I can't tell you off the top of my head, individually.
19 Q. I'll leave that with you and we can return to that in a while, if
20 I may.
21 Now, when you were assigned in whichever capacity to go to the
22 Radio Doboj, were you ordered to commit any crimes or were you ordered
23 simply to secure the location?
24 A. The exact order was to secure the location.
25 Q. Did you commit any crimes when securing that location?
1 A. No.
2 Q. The people you were with, can you name them, please?
3 A. Of course I can, but I would appreciate it if we could do it in
4 closed session.
5 MR. JORDASH: With Your Honour's leave.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 2874-2875 redacted.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 MR. JORDASH:
14 Q. Are you able to give us or give the Court any details other than
15 what you've just given concerning your activities in the month after
16 you'd taken over Radio Doboj and the Ministry of Defence?
17 A. These were the assignments for the most part, except for an
18 action, as it was called, to liberate the upper part of Doboj where
19 Carsija was and Nikovac. We did not participate in that operation, but
20 we provided security for the area between the Ministry of Defence and
21 Radio Doboj.
22 Q. That's your best recollection, is it, now? If it is, I'll just
23 move on.
24 A. That's to the best of my recollection.
25 Q. When was it you became a security -- the security for Stankovic?
1 A. We were not -- we did not provide security personally. We were
2 actually guards or security for the centre at Ozren, the command. So we
3 provided security for him and for the command.
4 Q. When was that?
5 A. Well, at one point it was in late 1992, and the second time it
6 was in 1994.
7 Q. Why was that? Why was it that you were chosen for that, and who
8 chose you?
9 A. We were assigned to the military police at the time, the
10 Djure Marce [phoen]. So this was our regular assignment at the time.
11 Q. And it was Stankovic who gave that order, wasn't it, for you to
12 go and work in the military police?
13 A. In 1994, yes. I went to him because I wanted to be assigned to
14 the military police.
15 Q. Well, I suggest at the end of June in 1992, Stankovic ordered
16 that you join the military police; is that not correct?
17 A. We were assigned to the military police before we went to the
18 1st Guards Motorised Brigade, whereas in 1994 I went up to him and asked
19 him to be reassigned to the same unit.
20 Q. Please could we turn to --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 MR. JORDASH: Please could we turn to Exhibit P137 again, please.
23 Perhaps we should, for caution's sake, Your Honour, go into closed
25 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 2879-2888 redacted.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 MR. JORDASH: It's probably not the best time to raise this
25 subject given the loss of time, but myself and my learned friend for
1 Mr. Simatovic would like to request some additional time for this -- for
2 the examination of this witness. Not additional to what I indicated. I
3 would seek, myself, only one more hour. My learned friend, I think, will
4 make his own comments. And the reason for that is this: That whilst we
5 appreciate time is of the essence and we appreciate that some form of
6 guidance has to be given and Your Honours have given the guidance of
7 between 150 and 175 per cent for Rule 92 ter witnesses, on the other hand
8 this is a significant witness whose evidence spans from 1992 all the way
9 through until, I think, 2001.
10 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Mr. ...
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Just to avoid whatever misunderstanding,
13 Mr. Jordash, I said I urge the parties to see whether they could speed
14 up. If I would have cut down the time, as you indicated, for certain,
15 that would have been a very clear message to you. I also told you
16 that -- and also to Mr. Petrovic and Mr. Bakrac, that where the guidance,
17 150, 175 per cent is, of course, not valid for every witness, if I would
18 not have been aware, or if the Chamber would not have been aware of the
19 fact that this is an insider witness, an important witness, and also in
20 view of the way in which the examination proceeded, then you might have
21 had quite a different message from this Chamber. So if you say, "We'll
22 stay within the time limits," then there was no ruling from the Chamber
23 which would cut you short of that.
24 MR. JORDASH: I'm grateful for --
25 JUDGE ORIE: If that -- it was more a long-term message.
1 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And, of course, whatever time could be gained also
3 in view of this witness is, of course, is gained, but the Chamber did not
4 at this moment set any time limits for this witness at this moment, but
5 of course has taken notice of the fact that you said that you wouldn't
6 ask -- you would not ask for more than you had already indicated.
7 MR. JORDASH: Thank you for the indication.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Petrovic or Mr. Bakrac, any further
9 submissions or does this satisfy your concerns?
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I thank you for your
11 comment. No, I have nothing to add.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I could take advantage of the time
14 that we find ourselves with now.
15 Your Honour, if you will recall, before the winter break there
16 was some controversy over MFI
17 JF-007. The Prosecution at this time withdraws our objection to the
18 tendering of that statement but does request that it be tendered under
19 seal given the protective measures afforded that witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To be quite honest, it does not immediately
21 come to my mind what the exact content of it was, but it is now -- the
22 objections are withdrawn. Therefore, the Chamber apparently has having
23 not decided the matter definitely yet will consider the tendering and
24 then in light of the withdrawn objections.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if it assists the Chamber, the
1 discussion about it was at transcript 2735.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that information.
3 May I take it that the withdrawal of objections of a Defence
4 exhibit doesn't cause the Defence to make any further submissions?
5 That's then well understood. Looking at both Defence teams that seems to
6 be the case.
7 Under those circumstances, we can adjourn for the day. We'll
8 resume on Monday, the 25th of January, quarter past 2.00, Courtroom II.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.19 p.m.
10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day
11 of January, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.