Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3375

 1                           Tuesday, 9 February 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is the case IT-03-69-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before we start, just an update on -- without going into any

12     details, but an update on medical reporting.

13             Mr. Jordash, I take it that you have received the answers sent by

14     Dr. Eekhof, which were -- you haven't received them.

15             MR. JORDASH:  No, we haven't.  Whether we have been sent them and

16     we've missed them, I'm not sure.  I'll just check.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It was filed, Mr. Jordash.  It was filed

19     confidentially, and again I have no intention of going into the details.

20     That's one.

21             And then we received the most recent weekly report from

22     Dr. Eekhof, but that was only very -- one hour ago, two hours ago, I do

23     not know exactly.  Conclusions are not any different from earlier

24     conclusions but especially the last weekly report gives more details

25     about certain matters.

Page 3376

 1             Is there any reason to specifically deal with it?

 2             MR. JORDASH:  If Your Honour indicates that the conclusions are

 3     the same, then -- then obviously we don't raise any point in relation to

 4     that report.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The conclusions are the same.  That's -- I'm

 6     not saying that all of the content is -- there are new elements in it,

 7     but as far as I can see, not worrying.  Rather, the opposite.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then there is one other matter I'd like to deal with

10     before the witness enters the courtroom.  That is -- no.  One other

11     matter is that we are still working on scheduling of a housekeeping

12     session.

13             What seems to be an option at this moment would be next week,

14     Friday, afternoon.  And I am aware that that's perhaps not the --

15     certainly it's not for the Chamber the most preferred option.  If we can

16     deal with some of the matters in time gained during one of our two

17     sessions next week, we might even consider to -- to establish that there

18     is no need for a housekeeping session anymore, which, perhaps, would be

19     preferred above having a housekeeping session of half an hour or

20     45 minutes and then everyone having to come back or stay in The Hague for

21     that Friday afternoon.

22             Mr. Bakrac.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to take a

24     minute of your time to thank the Trial Chamber for their understanding,

25     for the position in which Mr. Petrovic and I find ourselves, and your

Page 3377

 1     willingness to move the Status Conference to a later date at the expense

 2     of the Trial Chamber's comfort, in the terms of that this session is

 3     going to be held on, in other words, on Friday afternoon.

 4             Thank you very much, once again, for your understanding.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

 6             The last matter we briefly have to address is the following:

 7     Mr. Groome has asked an opportunity to address the Chamber in relation to

 8     exhibits to be used during cross-examination of Mr. Lazarevic, and I will

 9     give a brief opportunity to him to do so.

10             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.  27 of the 54 documents the

11     Simatovic Defence intends to use with this witness concern what appears

12     to be a pending criminal case.  The jurisprudence of this Tribunal is

13     clear that even absent the criminal conviction, a party may cross-examine

14     a witness on prior bad acts as long as there are reasonable grounds for

15     doing so.  This principle was first articulated by the Krajisnik Chamber

16     in its decision on the cross-examination of Milorad Davidovic, dated the

17     15 December, 2005, and recently followed by the Perisic Chamber in a

18     written decision of the 12th of June, 2009.

19             Both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and

20     the European Convention on Human Rights afford all of us in the courtroom

21     with a right to counsel under Articles 14 and 6, respectively.  And while

22     there is no explicit right against self-incrimination in deference to

23     different legal systems, the jurisprudence of the European Court of Human

24     Rights has consistently interpreted Article 6's right to a fair trial to

25     afford an implicit right against self-incrimination.

Page 3378

 1             Rule 90(E) of our own Rules reflect the value this institution

 2     places on protecting the right against self-incrimination.  And while

 3     90(E) empowers the Trial Chamber to compel answers to incriminatory

 4     questions as well as give assurances to a witness that such answers will

 5     not be used against him, it is not the role of the Prosecution to

 6     insulate witnesses from legitimate Prosecutions if these charges are

 7     proper and currently pending before the courts of Serbia.  Mr. Lazarevic

 8     must address them.  But the fact that a person comes to this Court to

 9     testify does not dispossess them of their rights.  And while it may be

10     fair and proper for Mr. Bakrac to ask the witness questions about these

11     allegations, it is must be done in a manner which safe-guards the rights

12     of the witness.

13             The Perisic Chamber recognised in its decision at paragraph 21

14     that the mechanism afforded in 90(E) for protecting the rights of a

15     witness may not have legal affect before a domestic Court.  It adopted a

16     pragmatic approach suggesting that private session could be used to the

17     same effect.  It also suggested that a witness may seek the assistance of

18     counsel should the witness deem that necessary before answering certain

19     questions put before him.

20             I would, therefore, make this in limine motion seeking the

21     following relief:  One, that both Defence teams be prohibited from asking

22     questions that implicate Mr. Lazarevic's rights against

23     self-incrimination and counsel in open session without a prior discussion

24     with the Chamber.  And, two, that if and when such a moment arises, that

25     the Chamber explicitly inform Mr. Lazarevic of his right to request

Page 3379

 1     private session and his right to seek the advice of counsel before

 2     answering any question in relation to the allegations related to a

 3     pending criminal case.

 4             And, finally, Your Honours, I will be addressing the issue of the

 5     general admissibility of these documents should they be tendered.

 6     Ms. Marcus will handle all other objections with respect to this witness.

 7             Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

 9             Any need to respond at this moment?

10             Mr. Bakrac.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will be very brief.

12             The proceedings that have been instituted in Serbia against this

13     person are public, so there is no secrecy involved in this respect.

14             The proceedings -- the investigative part of the proceedings is

15     complete.  The -- an indictment has been issued.  And a warrant -- a

16     warrant of arrest has been issued as well for this individual.  So I

17     would not be opposed if you so decide to discuss these matters in closed

18     session, but, as my colleague said himself, and I believe I understood

19     his words correctly, the right to a fair trial also implies the right of

20     me as one of the Defence counsel of one of the accused to point out to

21     the Trial Chamber any issues relating to the credibility of this witness,

22     especially so as some of his answers in the Milosevic case are -- or tie

23     in with what I am going to question him about regarding certain documents

24     that I obtained from the first lower court in Belgrade in -- through

25     regular channels.  These documents were obtained from the first lower

Page 3380

 1     court in Belgrade from proceedings that were completely public.

 2             Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, that -- and there

 4     seems to be some misunderstanding between you and Mr. Groome, the issue

 5     apparently is that Mr. Groome wants to avoid that any questions will be

 6     put to the witness which may have an effect on his right to remain silent

 7     in his own proceedings, in public, because if we would ask him these

 8     questions in public and if the Chamber would use its power under

 9     Rule 90(E) to tell the witness that he has to answer the question in view

10     of the still unsettled matter of the effect of any order of this Chamber

11     that a statement could not be used against that person, what the effect

12     would be in any domestic system, that the right not to incriminate

13     himself, which is a right under Serbian law as well, because it directly

14     derives from Article 6 of European Court on Human Rights to which Serbia

15     is a party, that we would -- we would have public statements on matters

16     on which the person involved, a witness before this Court, an accused in

17     Serbia, would be entitled to remain silent on.

18             Therefore, the matter of publicity is not the matter of the

19     public character of the trial, either before this Court or before the

20     court in Serbia, but eliciting from a witness something he could have

21     remained silent upon in a Serbian court would then be part of the public

22     records of this Court, where the protection provided to such a person

23     that it will not be used against him is, at this moment at least, not

24     firmly established, that is, the effect of any such order on domestic

25     proceedings.

Page 3381

 1             That seems to be, if I well understood your problem, Mr. Groome,

 2     is that -- if it is so, please tell me; if it is not, please correct me

 3     if I'm wrong.

 4             MR. GROOME:  That is a correct characterisation of my argument,

 5     Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, did you understand what the --

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  I believe I

 8     understood you correctly the first time around.  But I was probably

 9     insufficiently clear.

10             In other words, I have no problems with putting any questions to

11     him in closed session and in him choosing to defend himself by silence or

12     not to answer my questions.

13             As far as I'm concerned, I will put the questions to him in

14     closed session if the Trial Chamber so decides and he may choose not to

15     answer any of my questions.

16             Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

18             MR. JORDASH:  May I indicate our position, although I will not be

19     putting these issues to the witness.  Our position would that the only

20     aspect of the witness's -- of the question and answer session that should

21     be in private would be any answers which are compelled.  As for the

22     questions, they should be in public, in our respectful submission.

23             As for the warning to the witness about self-incrimination, that

24     should be in public.  And if the witness chooses to give up his right to

25     self-incrimination, then the answers should then be given in public.

Page 3382

 1             Those are our -- that's our position.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which leaves open the question of advice to be

 3     given to the witness apparently accused in Serbia on whether or not to

 4     use his right not to incriminate himself.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The matter is clear.  Let's get started.

 7             The Chamber will carefully listen to any question and as soon,

 8     Mr. Bakrac, you enter an area which is related to any ongoing proceedings

 9     against this witness before a Serbian court, I would like you to clearly

10     indicate that so as to give the Chamber an opportunity to explain to the

11     witness his rights.  And then we'll see whether -- how the witness

12     responds to that.  Then the ...

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we continue, in order for the Chamber

15     to appropriately deal with the matter, is a copy of the indictment

16     brought against the witness, is that available?  Because if you want to

17     use your right against self-incrimination, it is very useful to know what

18     you're indicted for.

19             Mr. Bakrac.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, we have it in the

21     system as well.  But our Case Manager is, as we speak, preparing copies

22     of the indictment for -- hard copies for -- for the witness.  But it is

23     in the e-court system, both the indictment and its translation.

24             And that is exhibit number, from our list - bear with me,

25     Your Honours - that's 2D8.

Page 3383

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We we'll ask Madam Registrar to print out

 2     copies of the English version of the indictment, not as evidence, but to

 3     assist the Chamber in finding its right path in this matter.

 4             Mr. Groome.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if it assists the Chamber, I have a

 6     copy of the indictment.  The only mark on it is the date is circled.  So

 7     if that assists, then there is no objection from --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, perhaps we would need three anyhow.  And since

 9     the printer of Madam Registrar is usually functioning well, even without

10     markings of the OTP, I would expect to receive it within two minutes

11     anyhow.

12             So, therefore, thank you for the offer.

13             MR. GROOME:  The other thing I have in court, Your Honour, is a

14     copy of Article 6 of the European Commission of Human Rights, if the

15     Chamber should --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If you want us to recite it by heart, we'll do so.

17             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  I'm just offering it if it assists

18     the Chamber.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Lazarevic.

23             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to remind you that you're still bound

25     by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

Page 3384

 1     testimony.  And Mr. Jordash will now continue his cross-examination.

 2                           WITNESS:  SLOBODAN LAZAREVIC [Resumed]

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]

 4        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lazarevic.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And a last request, you know what it is.

 6             THE WITNESS:  I am aware.  Yes, I am aware.  I will try my best

 7     and I keep saying that and --

 8             Good afternoon, Mr. Jordash.

 9             MR. JORDASH:

10        Q.   Was there a time in the RSK when Babic and Martic were disputing

11     elections?

12        A.   Yes, I'm aware of that.  Yes.

13        Q.   When was that time, please, approximately?

14        A.   Very, very -- I can't really give you an approximate time.  I

15     wasn't involved in any local politics.  I know there was a conflict

16     between them, but --

17        Q.   Can you give us a year?

18        A.   I can only guess.  1993 or something like that.  Or later.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's refrain from guessing and speculations.

20             MR. JORDASH:

21        Q.   Was there a time when Babic lost his position in the RSK?

22        A.   Yes.  He was replaced by Mr. Martic.

23        Q.   What position did he have before being replaced?

24        A.   President of the RSK.

25        Q.   Do you know when he was replaced?

Page 3385

 1        A.   Again, I can only guess.  I really don't know.  I can't remember,

 2     rather.

 3        Q.   Do you know if it was the same time as the disputed -- or the --

 4     when Babic and Martic were disputing the elections?

 5        A.   Probably would be close to the same time, yes.  That was the

 6     result of the dispute in the end that one was replaced with the other.

 7        Q.   At what time do you say you first met Mr. Stanisic?

 8        A.   I think it was the day of declaration of RSK becoming a state.

 9        Q.   When was that?

10        A.   Early 1992.

11        Q.   Where was that?

12        A.   In Knin.

13        Q.   Did you speak to him?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   What was the -- what was the occasion?

16        A.   After the -- after the -- I won't call it a meeting, but a

17     session of the parliament.  There was a joint dinner.

18        Q.   When did you, if any -- if at any time, when did you meet him

19     again or see him again?

20        A.   I never met him, in the sense that we're in the same room where I

21     was introduced to him or this is who I am and things like that.  No.  I

22     was more aware of him being there through discussion with other people

23     than I would actually see him myself.

24        Q.   Well, you met him -- sorry, you were at the same joint dinner in

25     early 1992?

Page 3386

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   When, if at any time, did you next see him?

 3        A.   Possibly the earliest I could remember would be by the end of

 4     1993.

 5        Q.   Where did you see him?

 6        A.   In vicinity of -- between Topusko and Vojnic, that area.

 7        Q.   What was he doing?

 8        A.   Visiting somebody, I guess.

 9        Q.   Did you find out what he was doing?  Did anyone tell you?

10        A.   I believe Mr. Pajic mentioned that he was there.  That's

11     about it.

12        Q.   Mr. Pajic ...

13        A.   Toso Pajic.

14        Q.   Did he mention the specifics of what Mr. Stanisic was doing at --

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   -- that location?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Did you meet him or see him after that?

19        A.   Only heard of him being there, but not seeing him, no.

20     Physically, no.

21        Q.   So the two times have you seen Mr. Stanisic during 1991 to 1995

22     was these two occasions?

23        A.   The ones that I do remember, yes.

24        Q.   And on each occasion, you were not informed of the specifics of

25     what he was present to do?

Page 3387

 1        A.   No.  Not of the specifics.  However, I did get some details about

 2     it, but not -- this is exactly what happened.  It is more like hearsay, I

 3     guess.

 4        Q.   Well, what are the details which you heard --

 5        A.   Well, one was the -- one occasion was that he was delivering a

 6     message to Babic from -- from Mr. Milosevic.

 7        Q.   And what were you told was the message?

 8        A.   The message that I was told that he came in and delivered the

 9     very short message.  That's it.  You know, You got to pull out from the

10     position that you're in, from the Presidency.  And it was told to me like

11     in a joking way kind of -- manner.  All he had to do is come in and tell

12     him, You're gone; you're history.

13        Q.   Who told you that?

14        A.   People around Toso Pajic.

15        Q.   Who --

16        A.   I remember Djuro Skaljac was there.  Toso Pajic was there.  My

17     understanding was that it wasn't a formal meeting, that I was getting

18     specifics about a meetings or anything like that, no.

19        Q.   Right.  It was -- someone told you in a joking kind of way?

20        A.   Yeah.  I remember being -- said something about -- I don't know

21     how much history of the Balkans, you know, but there's a terminology

22     called "cvjilan gajter [phoen]."  In olden times in the South the wanted

23     to get rid of somebody he would send him a message and the message was a

24     piece of silver rope.  How do you do it when I tell you, or you hang

25     yourself.

Page 3388

 1        Q.   That was the sum total of what you were told?

 2        A.   Just about, yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 4        A.   Probably a few other things, but I don't remember anymore.

 5        Q.   That's fine.

 6        A.   And I had no reason to remember it.

 7        Q.   And am I correct that you never attended any meeting between

 8     Toso Pajic and Mr. Stanisic?

 9        A.   Correct, never.

10        Q.   You cannot, can you, say with certainty that they did meet in the

11     relevant period, between 1991 and 1995?

12        A.   Well, I had been told by Mr. Pajic himself that he has to meet

13     him or he met him yesterday or something along those lines.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Just give me a moment, please.

15        Q.   How many times do you think Mr. Pajic told you he had met

16     Mr. Stanisic during the period --

17        A.   I won't even try to guess.

18        Q.   What did Mr. Pajic tell you, if anything, about what Mr. Stanisic

19     had met him to do?

20        A.   Absolutely nothing.  It was not a subject of any of our meetings,

21     what Mr. Stanisic does or doesn't do, no.

22        Q.   So despite seeing Mr. Pajic five times a week, you never learned

23     or understood the nature of these meetings?

24        A.   Primarily my job was to do with the army and the UN, not with the

25     police.  As far as I was concerned, the police business was the police

Page 3389

 1     business.

 2        Q.   Did anyone else tell you that they'd seen Mr. Stanisic meeting

 3     Mr. Pajic?

 4        A.   No.  But I heard from the other officers at the HQ that

 5     Mr. Stanisic was visiting the area, but not who he is visiting or what

 6     they were discussing, nothing of that nature.

 7        Q.   Who told you that?

 8        A.   I don't remember.  I mean, you have a bunch of officers in the

 9     morning during their coffee and a cigarette and the people are talking

10     amongst themselves, you overhear, or you might ask a question, or --

11     that's about it.

12        Q.   Did they ever explain to you the nature of the meetings supposed

13     to have taken place between Stanisic and Pajic, or Stanisic and anyone --

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   -- in the locality?

16        A.   Not really, no.

17        Q.   No.

18        A.   Again, I'm trying to stress that my interaction with Mr. Pajic

19     had nothing to do with what the police is doing or what the army is

20     doing; it was more on a personal level.  So I didn't go to Mr. Pajic and

21     ask him, Oh did you have a meeting with Mr. Stanisic, what did you guys

22     talk about?  It was never like that.  Neither did he ever offer to me any

23     details about a meeting that he might or might not have.  I know they

24     happened, but what is beyond -- behind that meeting, I have no idea.

25        Q.   And yesterday you claimed that Mr. Pajic referred to Mr. Stanisic

Page 3390

 1     as Daddy?

 2        A.   Yeah.  Not directly to him on the phone.  But when the

 3     conversation was over and he put the phone down, he said, That was daddy

 4     on the phone.

 5        Q.   How many times did that happen?

 6        A.   Again, you're asking for something that I can't really give you

 7     an answer.  I heard it.  How often I heard it?  I don't know.  I heard

 8     it.  Same as I heard him calling Milosevic Boss.  And if you ask me how

 9     many times, I don't know.

10        Q.   Could I suggest that that evidence you've given is simply not

11     true, Mr. Lazarevic?

12        A.   Mr. Jordash, you can suggest whatever you want, I'm standing

13     behind what I said, and I firmly believe this is how it happened.

14        Q.   Now, you have given evidence previously about attending

15     international conferences when Hadzic was President of the RSK?

16        A.   True.

17        Q.   And am I correct that you attended the conferences as a liaison

18     officer?

19        A.   I don't think it was on the list of the delegates I was stated as

20     a liaison officer.  Or at least I don't remember.

21        Q.   What did you attend as?

22        A.   I think they put me down as interpreter at least on two of those

23     occasions.

24        Q.   But you suggest that you were there as some type of --

25     surveillance agent?

Page 3391

 1        A.   Yes.  For a specific person.

 2        Q.   And the conferences you say you went to in that capacity were in

 3     June of 1993, in Geneva?

 4        A.   I know I was in Geneva, yes.

 5        Q.   July of 1993 in Geneva?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   20 to 22nd of July 1993 in Vienna?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And later in 1993 in Norway?

10        A.   Which is supposed to be a kind of secret meeting.

11        Q.   And you claim that you would attend -- or the delegates attending

12     that conference from the RSK, including yourself, would attend for

13     briefings in Belgrade beforehand?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And who would the briefings be given by?

16        A.   The political side.  Every delegation that went to those meetings

17     was split into three groups.  There was a political side, civilian side,

18     there was a military side.  Two groups, yes.  Civilian and military.

19        Q.   And you attended the briefings yourself, did you?

20        A.   No.  I was on receiving end after the briefing was completed,

21     because whoever person from the delegation that went to the briefing came

22     back and reported to us.  We were all staying in Hotel Mladost in

23     Belgrade.

24        Q.   Well, can you recall now who gave the briefing for the first

25     meeting, the 16th of June, 1993, Geneva conference?

Page 3392

 1        A.   I don't remember.

 2        Q.   The 6th of July, 1993, Geneva conference?

 3        A.   There's only one person, his face is coming up to me, he's in

 4     uniform, he's a Colonel.  Can't place the name.  At least twice.

 5        Q.   The 20 to 22nd of July, 1993, Vienna conference?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   The late 1993 Norway conference, who gave the briefing for that?

 8        A.   No.  I -- I remember specific tasks that I was given for Norway

 9     because it was kind of strange.

10        Q.   What task were you given for Norway?

11        A.   To stay as close as possible to Admiral Rakic.

12        Q.   But you don't know who gave that instruction?

13        A.   No, that came from Zimonja.

14        Q.   That came from Zimonja?

15        A.   Yes.  This was not from the briefing.

16        Q.   Who gave the briefing for that conference --

17        A.   I don't remember.

18        Q.   -- from Belgrade?  Don't know.

19             You claim that after the conference -- sorry let me deal with

20     during the conferences.

21             That instructions would come from Belgrade.  Is that correct?

22        A.   If there was a need to call Belgrade during the meetings, yes,

23     they would call Belgrade.

24        Q.   And how do you know this?

25        A.   Because we're in the same room.

Page 3393

 1        Q.   Who's in the same room?  Let's deal with --

 2        A.   Serbian delegation.

 3        Q.   Let's try and deal with specifics.

 4             16th of June 1993, Geneva?

 5        A.   On all occasions, every meetings that we had, during the

 6     adjournments of the meeting all delegation would be brought their own

 7     quarters, if you like.  Our own had a little room with the telephones.

 8     And I remember distinctly that we were told that they were secure lines,

 9     meaning that we could call Belgrade and talk whatever we wanted to talk

10     about.  It's not going to be overheard by, I don't know, a third party.

11     That was my understanding any way.

12        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's deal with that.  So who would reassure the RSK

13     delegation that the phones were secure?

14        A.   There was a man who always represent himself as a host, and he

15     was a Serbian.  And he was Milosevic also, but he wasn't Slobo, I mean,

16     it was a different name.

17        Q.   And the RSK officials accepted, without question, that the lines

18     in Vienna, Geneva, and Norway were secure, and went and took instructions

19     from Belgrade?  Is that the evidence you're giving?

20        A.   Have you to form that question a little bit different.  First, it

21     is not instructions.  It was more of a, What we do next, and something

22     being suggested from the other side how to continue the meeting.  Because

23     if we are taking a break in our meetings, that was -- with some reason it

24     came up.

25        Q.   But somebody not connected to the RSK delegation would suggest

Page 3394

 1     that the phone lines were secure, and the RSK delegation would accept

 2     that --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.    -- without question.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And phone up Belgrade to receive instructions in order to make

 7     sure that no meaningful agreements were reached in these international

 8     conferences.  Is that your evidence?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And how big was the delegation on each occasion, approximately?

11        A.   It was getting bigger every time we went.  First time was a very

12     limited number of people.  Not any more than ten, really.  And don't ask

13     me, please, who attended because I can't remember all the names.  There

14     was list of people who attended it.  I'm pretty sure of that.

15        Q.   And your position at these meeting was what, as an interpreter?

16        A.   Well, that was the official, yes.

17        Q.   Yes.  And nobody in that delegation knew you were working for

18     KOS?

19        A.   Not that I know of, no.

20        Q.   And those on the -- who attended these meetings were the likes of

21     Hadzic and other RSK top officials.  Is that correct?

22        A.   Can you repeat that, please?

23        Q.   These international conferences, it was the likes of Hadzic,

24     senior RSK officials, who were attending?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3395

 1        Q.   And you were attending as an interpreter?

 2        A.   Right.  And it was physically impossible because the said

 3     delegation was clinging to the two groups.  The military side of

 4     delegation, we discussed problems of military nature with the military

 5     part of the delegation by the Croatians.  And the civilian part of the

 6     delegation, we discussed political issues with the civilian part of the

 7     Croatian delegation.  So there's no way I could be attending both of

 8     them.

 9        Q.   No.  But why were you left in the room when these phone calls

10     these high-powered phone calls for example between Hadzic and Milosevic

11     or Milosevic's colleagues, why from you left in the room?

12        A.   Let me ask you a different question.  As a part of the

13     delegation, why would they ask me to leave?

14        Q.   Because you were an interpreter?

15        A.   Yeah, I was officially part of the --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Would you mind making breaks, thank you.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, yes.

18             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

19             MR. JORDASH:

20        Q.   So you were attending in some other capacity other than as an

21     interpreter?

22        A.   Yes, that's what I believe.

23        Q.   Well, what was your role?

24        A.   Get as much information as I possible can on the military side

25     that might interest KOS.

Page 3396

 1        Q.   Who gave you that role?

 2        A.   Colonel Zimonja.

 3        Q.   And he was, as you told us yesterday, the only person who was

 4     aware that you worked for KOS?

 5        A.   Apart probably from the people that served from Belgrade every

 6     now and then, please mail some things or ask me some favours.

 7        Q.   So you were in this room with the likes of Hadzic and Zimonja?

 8        A.   Zimonja wasn't there.

 9        Q.   So it's you and other -- you and high officials from --

10        A.   All officials [Overlapping speakers] ...

11        Q.   -- the RSK.  And they all thought you were there as an

12     interpreter because they were not aware of your role within KOS --

13        A.   No, I believe that they thought about me being a liaison officer

14     for Sector North.

15        Q.   So they thought you were there in the capacity as a liaison

16     officer?

17        A.   You're asking me to guess what they think?  I can't do that.

18        Q.   Well, you were there in an international conference with the

19     president of the RSK.  Did the president not understand why you were

20     there?

21        A.   I have no idea whether he was -- needed to understand when asked

22     the question.

23             I was -- let me try to clarify this, make it more simple, if I

24     can.  There is a delegation and all the people are assigned what they are

25     doing there, right?  So he is a minister for energy; this guy is either

Page 3397

 1     this or that.  Now the only thing I could become a party of the

 2     delegation would be as something.

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   And they decided I'm going to be as an interpreter.

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   But the fact of the matter is I have never been used as an

 7     interpreter during the meetings.

 8        Q.   Let me just pause you there then.  So everyone knew you were not

 9     an interpreter?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me pause you there as well, yes.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.

12        Q.   Everyone at that -- those delegations whether Dusan Rakic, the

13     minister of defence, or Hadzic was aware that were not interpreting.  Is

14     that correct?

15        A.   Yes, that was the situation, yes.

16        Q.   Right.  So, presumably, they had some understanding of why you

17     remained in the delegation?

18        A.   Again it would be unacceptable to take a part of the delegation

19     and set them out of the room because somebody wants to talk to somebody

20     else.  That's what you think?  No, it wasn't.

21        Q.   No -- they -- they -- Rakic, Hadzic, and so on, were unaware that

22     you were a member of KOS; correct?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   So what did they think you were doing in the room?

25        A.   I have no idea.  Why don't you ask them?

Page 3398

 1        Q.   So --

 2        A.   What were they thinking?  How can I possibly even guess what

 3     they're thinking?

 4        Q.   So you sat in the room, you didn't have discussions with them,

 5     which would indicate your role, and, as far as you're concerned, you

 6     don't know what they thought you were doing there.

 7        A.   They were all seniors to me in every respect.

 8        Q.   Okay.  I think we can leave it there.  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

 9             And could I suggest to you that at no stage did you witness any

10     telephone calls to Mr. Stanisic during these delegations.

11        A.   I never even said that I was present while the members of

12     delegations were talking to Stanisic.  I said they were talking to

13     Belgrade.

14        Q.   So you're confident that you never heard any of the delegation

15     call up Mr. Stanisic during these international conferences?

16        A.   You mean like I'm sitting there, somebody is picking up the phone

17     and saying, Hey, Mr. Stanisic, how are you?  I'm calling you from Norway.

18     That kind of call?

19        Q.   No, a call to tell him what was going on, to receive

20     instructions, debriefing, whatever.

21        A.   Debriefing, definitely not.  It wasn't done in Norway.

22        Q.   So the evidence you gave in the Milosevic trial, 12411 -- 12410,

23     I beg your pardon, that, on one occasion, Jovica Stanisic was contacted

24     and you said on being -- you believed that on being in the room when

25     those calls were placed - and that's line 16 to line 20 - was nothing

Page 3399

 1     less than a lie, was it?

 2        A.   I don't quite understand your question right now.

 3        Q.   Well, in the Milosevic trial when asked:

 4             "Do you know if, on this occasion," referring to the Norway trip,

 5     "Jovica Stanisic was contacted by anyone?"

 6             You answered:

 7             "I believe that is the case.

 8             "Q.  And you believe that based on what.

 9             "A.  On being in the room when those calls were placed."

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Well, which is --

12        A.   That's right -- okay.  As I said, there were different members of

13     delegation there.  And each had a specific task to perform during the

14     meetings.  And it always depends who's making the call.  Do I make sense?

15        Q.   Not to me.  Perhaps it's me.  Please try again.

16        A.   Okay.

17             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, excuse me.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

19             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.  Perhaps the actual page could be shown to the

20     witness so that he could see the whole context of the conversation.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Sure.

22        Q.   Sorry, I didn't mean to take advantage, Mr. Lazarevic.

23        A.   Oh, yes you are.

24        Q.   I think you should --

25        A.   I give you a lot of credit.

Page 3400

 1        Q.   I think you should have a look at the page.

 2        A.   Thank you.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Could we call up, please, 12410 of the --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That is the Milosevic --

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, Your Honour [Overlapping speakers] ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is admitted under seal.  Nevertheless, if it

 7     is a page which is public on the Internet and not part of the private

 8     session, there should be no major objection against it even being shown

 9     to the public.

10             MR. JORDASH:  It is in open session, Your Honour.

11             THE WITNESS:  I don't get anything from this document.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps -- actually, the page should be 12410.  And

13     perhaps just so the witness gets some context, we can go back to 12409.

14     And this isn't the page, I don't think.  No, it's not the page.

15             Can we go to 12409, please.  That is the page.

16        Q.   If can you start reading, Mr. Lazarevic, at line 16.

17        A.   Yes.  What is the question?

18        Q.   Just read that page and --

19        A.   The whole page, from 1 to 16?

20        Q.   From 16 to the bottom, and then go to 12410.  Please indicate

21     when you have finished 12409.

22        A.   Okay.  Waiting for the second page.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Okay.  12410, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witness sees the same as I do, he can't have

25     read until the bottom of the page because it doesn't appear on the

Page 3401

 1     screen.

 2             So let's --

 3             Mr. Lazarevic --

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 5             JUDGE ORIE: -- I give you a couple of extra lines to read,

 6     16 until the end.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 8             Next.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Next, please.

10             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

11             MR. JORDASH:

12        Q.   You suggested in the Milosevic trial, although you didn't give

13     any details, that a call had been made to Stanisic -- Mr. Stanisic during

14     the Norway trip.  But ten minutes ago you told the court definitely not.

15     So I'm just trying to clarify --

16        A.   That it wasn't or it was made?  Which one are you trying to

17     clarify?

18        Q.   Well, that is a matter for you to clarify, Mr. Lazarevic?

19        A.   I said that I believe that is the case.  Doesn't say that I

20     definitely state that is the case.

21        Q.   Okay.  If that's your answer, we can move on.  Thank you.

22             Let me take you to the final subject I'd like to deal with, which

23     is the issue of Pauk.

24             Were you aware, Mr. Witness, of a declaration signed --

25        A.   May I interrupt you for a second.  This is a very annoying habit

Page 3402

 1     you have:  Either you call me Mr. Lazarevic or call me Mr. Witness all

 2     the way through, please.

 3        Q.   I beg your pardon.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 5             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 7             Yes, I do not see the real problem.  Sometimes Mr. Jordash

 8     addresses you as Mr. Witness or sometimes he may address you as

 9     Mr. Lazarevic.  I do not see any inappropriateness in not always

10     addressing you exactly in the same way.  I can imagine myself doing it as

11     well, as a matter of fact, without any bad intentions.

12             Therefore, Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.  And if you wish to meet

13     what is apparently experienced as unpleasant by the witness, you may

14     choose to do so.

15             MR. JORDASH:  I shall.  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, let me deal with Pauk.

17             Were you aware of a declaration signed by --

18                           [French on English Channel]

19             MR. JORDASH:

20        Q.   Were you aware of a declaration signed by Fikret Abdic in

21     Belgrade with Radovan Karadzic in the presence of Slobodan Milosevic in

22     late 1993?

23        A.   Absolutely not.

24        Q.   Let me try to see if you might remember something to do with it.

25             That the declaration was a 12-point declaration recognising the

Page 3403

 1     autonomous region of western Bosnia?

 2        A.   No, never heard of it.

 3        Q.   Let me ask you this then:  Have you -- did you hear, in the

 4     summer of 1994, of approximately 80.000 refugees fleeing from Bosnia into

 5     the RSK, into the region of Topusko, Muslims, refugees?

 6        A.   From Velika Kladusa, yes.

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   Yes, I'm aware of the situation.

 9        Q.   So --

10        A.   I mean, I know it happened.

11        Q.   Yeah.  At the time of Pauk, the Operation Pauk, there was around

12     8.000 [sic] Muslim refugees who were camping out in the RSK, hoping to

13     return home at some point; is that correct?

14        A.   Actually, they came to no man's land between the Serbian side and

15     Croatian side.

16        Q.   And Fikret Abdic was trying to return to the western Bosnia and

17     take the refugees back with him.

18        A.   I don't know.

19        Q.   You have no idea about that?

20        A.   No.  Oh, I know about the presence of the refugees, if that's

21     what you're asking me.  But I don't know about Fikret Abdic going and

22     pleading with them to come back.  That I don't know.

23        Q.   Were you aware that the refugees wanted to return home?

24        A.   No, I haven't spoken to any of them.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

Page 3404

 1             Please continue.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Wasn't --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lazarevic, I -- you had finished your last

 5     answer when you said "No, I haven't spoken to any of them" when I

 6     interrupted you?

 7             THE WITNESS:  That is correct.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please put your next question, Mr. Jordash.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

10        Q.   The 21st Corps and the 39th Corps and the 15th Corps were

11     fighting within the Pauk Command; is that correct?

12        A.   To my knowledge, yes.

13        Q.   Wasn't one of the purposes that they were trying to achieve was

14     the return of Fikret Abdic to western Bosnia?

15        A.   I don't know the real reasons for it.  I did find it rather

16     strange that the Serbs were fighting the Muslims for the Muslims.  That I

17     did find strange.

18        Q.   So it's your evidence, and then if you really don't know, then

19     I'll leave it for the Court to decide, but you really don't have any

20     evidence to give about the refugees and their intentions during 1994 and

21     1995?

22        A.   1994 and end 1995?  I know of one instance.

23        Q.   I'm talking about November 1994 until Operation Storm.

24             Was there an effort by the corps I have just mentioned to protect

25     the refugees?

Page 3405

 1        A.   At the very end, yes, I am aware of that.  But their all pulling

 2     out of western Bosnia, if that's what you're suggesting.  I don't know.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Well --

 4        A.   This is the only other time that I knew about the refugees.

 5        Q.   Let me then move to a slightly different subject.

 6             Petrova Gora, where the Serbian MUP camped out, was a high-tech

 7     facility, wasn't it?

 8        A.   That's what I was led to believe, yes.

 9        Q.   And it was high-tech because it had high-powered surveillance

10     equipment, listening devices, to enable the MUP to listen in to various

11     electronic communications.

12        A.   I always thought it was merely to do with the telephone

13     connections.

14        Q.   Right.

15        A.   They can click into somebody's conversation to listen.

16        Q.   Right.  It was this -- the particular location where the Serbian

17     MUP was was primarily a surveillance location, wasn't it?

18        A.   Before the conflict?

19        Q.   When the Serbian MUP was there.

20        A.   I don't know what they used it for, but they used it as a HQ.

21        Q.   Was it on a mountain?

22        A.   Not really a mountainous region.  Let's say it was on a high

23     hill.

24        Q.   Right.  A high hill with high-tech listening devices?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3406

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And it was how many kilometres away from Bosnia?

 2        A.   Oh, not even a kilometre.

 3        Q.   And that location where the Serbian MUP camped out was a

 4     different location to the rest of Pauk, wasn't it?

 5        A.   Can you just repeat the question slowly this time, because I'm

 6     trying to distinguish whether you asked me whether there were two

 7     commands or not.

 8        Q.   The formations that you have told the Court were taking part in

 9     Pauk, including the Serbian MUP, as you would have it, were divided in

10     locations.  The Serbian MUP at Petrova Gora, and the rest of the

11     Pauk Command within Bosnia.

12        A.   Including Serbian MUP in Bosnia.

13        Q.   Who was in Bosnia?  Who had their HQ in Bosnia from the

14     Serbian MUP?

15        A.   Rajko Bozovic.

16        Q.   Well, I was going to get to that.  So Bozovic had his HQ in

17     Bosnia?

18        A.   In Kladusa itself.

19        Q.   Yeah.  Legija had HQ --

20        A.   Yes, but I don't know whether he was a member of the MUP Serbia

21     or who he was a member of, but he was there.

22        Q.   Legija who you're not sure was a member of MUP?

23        A.   My understanding was that he was a member of this special unit

24     that came from Serbia.

25        Q.   You don't know?

Page 3407

 1        A.   Positively?  Yes, I know he was a member of MUP.  Why?

 2        Q.   Because you just said that you're not sure.

 3        A.   Nowadays, I can't be sure of anything, the way you are asking me

 4     the questions.  So if I go back and think, yes, Ulemek was in charge of

 5     special unit by the MUP Serbia police, had their own camping grounds

 6     somewhere, I don't know, Vojvodina, somewhere else, I don't know.  There.

 7     And his involvement later on in happenings in Serbia suggested that he is

 8     a member of MUP.

 9        Q.   Sorry, could you repeat last sentence?  And his what later on?

10     What did you say?

11        A.   Involvement in things that happened in Serbia.

12        Q.   Later on?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Such as?

15        A.   Sorry.

16        Q.   Such as?  What happened later on that suggested his involvement

17     in Pauk?

18        A.   Haven't you followed these trial?

19        Q.   Well, I'm asking you.

20        A.   Okay.  Well, I know from a newspaper.  He was involved in the

21     killing of President Djindjic and some other people there as well.

22        Q.   So basically, from what you've just said to us, you didn't know

23     that he was a member of the MUP, but due to events which occurred later

24     as, for example the killing of President Djindjic, you then put two and

25     two together and --

Page 3408

 1        A.   No, I knew he was a member of MUP.  I couldn't just allocate him;

 2     I couldn't put him in a set or specific role there.

 3        Q.   How did you know he was a member of the MUP?

 4        A.   By the insignia, they are the same.

 5        Q.   Sorry?

 6        A.   The insignia on the uniform.

 7        Q.   Was Frenki Simatovic based at Petrova Gora?

 8        A.   Yes, I was led to believe so.

 9        Q.   That was his HQ?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Bozovic and Legija had an HQ with who?

12        A.   In Bosnia.

13        Q.   With who?

14        A.   With Pauk.

15        Q.   And who was there in Pauk?

16        A.   In charge was General Novakovic, Mile.

17        Q.   Right.

18        A.   You had a Chief of Staff who was Colonel Bulat.

19        Q.   Yeah.

20        A.   Those are the people that I met.  And what they told me is the HQ

21     of the Pauk, which was about 200 yards as you get across, it was in a

22     simple house.  That's where they were.

23        Q.   Right.

24        A.   Further down the road when you go into Kladusa, you come to -- I

25     don't know how to translate it, Robna Kuca.  It's like supermarket.  And

Page 3409

 1     on the first floor there was an office where Mr. Bozovic had his HQ.  I'd

 2     say "operativni brod."

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Operational area.

 4             MR. JORDASH:

 5        Q.   Bozovic and Legija were based in this HQ you've just told us

 6     about and they had men with them in that HQ?

 7        A.   Yeah, I think so, yes.

 8        Q.   And who was with Frenki Simatovic in Petrova Gora?

 9        A.   I don't know.  I never got to get in there.

10        Q.   Right.  So you don't actually have any evidence concerning

11     Frenki Simatovic or Bozovic and their relation to each other, or do you?

12        A.   Do I what?

13        Q.   Do you have any evidence concerning their relationship --

14        A.   What do you consider evidence?  I don't quite follow what you're

15     trying me --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please not overlap because

17     of the interpretation.  Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, that's my fault.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It's both your faults.

21             MR. JORDASH:  It won't happen again.

22             THE WITNESS:  Of course, it will.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Not from me it won't.

24        Q.   You saw Mr. Bozovic two or three times a month at the HQ of the

25     21st Corps?

Page 3410

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You never saw him at Petrova Gora?

 3        A.   Never been to Petrova Gora when they took over.

 4        Q.   Right.  You never saw Simatovic, Mr. Simatovic giving --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Sorry.  Just take a breath after every answer.  I

 6     have seen situations where other members of the team would play some of

 7     the role which I would be forced to play if you continue this way.  That

 8     is to either kick you or to pull your legs or whatever, pull your arms.

 9     I'm really relying on the inventivity of the team as a whole.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

12        Q.   You didn't see Mr. Simatovic giving orders to either Mr. Bozovic

13     or Legija, did you?

14        A.   In person?  No.

15        Q.   No.  Thank you.  The men that you say belonged to Arkan, did you

16     ever see Arkan give orders to them at Pauk?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   You never saw Mr. Stanisic giving orders to Mr. Simatovic at

19     Petrova Gora?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   And you never saw Mr. Simatovic reporting to Mr. Stanisic at

22     Petrova Gora?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   The men you identified as belonging to Arkan were clearly

25     separate to the men that you suggest belonged to the Serbian MUP.  They

Page 3411

 1     were a different formation, were they not?

 2        A.   I can't say that.  All I know they were on the same ground

 3     fighting the same -- fighting on the same side.  But if you're suggesting

 4     that Arkan came there by himself, I doubt very much.

 5        Q.   Are you suggesting that you couldn't identify the difference

 6     between the men you say belonged to Arkan and the men you say belonged to

 7     the Serbian MUP?

 8        A.   Of course you can tell the difference.  I think the other guys

 9     had a little tiger head on their shoulders.

10        Q.   The only place you saw the men who were with Mr. Simatovic on a

11     regular basis was Petrova Gora, wasn't it?

12        A.   No.  I keep saying that I never went to Petrova Gora.

13        Q.   Let me ask to you turn to your previous statement again.  Perhaps

14     this is the quickest way to do this.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Please, could we have on the screen the witness's

16     1999 statement, 0205-3036.

17        Q.   Let's -- before I ask you --

18             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, could we just make sure it's not being

19     broadcast.  Excuse me, please.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, I beg your pardon.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Before, Mr. Witness, we turn to that statement, could you please

22     describe the insignia you say that Arkan's Men were wearing in a little

23     more detail?

24        A.   If I remember it correctly, they had a tiger's head with open

25     jaws.

Page 3412

 1        Q.   What colour was the tiger?

 2        A.   Orange.

 3        Q.   And the uniform?  Was there a uniform?

 4        A.   You're asking me the things that happened, like, 15 years ago of

 5     people I met maybe twice.

 6        Q.   Was it a uniform --

 7        A.   It looked --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

 9             MR. JORDASH:

10        Q.   Was the uniform worn by Arkan's Men the same as the uniform worn

11     by the Serbian -- the men you say were part of the Serbian MUP?

12        A.   Well, let me put it this way:  They were not the JNA uniforms.

13     They looked to me like a NATO uniform.  And if you ask whether there was

14     any colour distinction between the uniform, no, there was not.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let's turn to your statement.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Page 25 of the English version, please, and the

17     paragraph I'm looking for in the B/C/S starts with:  "Altogether, Arkan

18     had about 100 men at Petrova Gora ..."

19             Can we turn to that in the B/C/S, please.  Can I be helped out?

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. JORDASH:  It's -- it should be around the page 20 -- thank

22     you, page 21.

23        Q.   Please, Mr. Witness, find the:  "Altogether Arkan had about 100

24     men at Petrova Gora ..."

25             Do you see that?

Page 3413

 1        A.   That's not on the B/C/S version.  It's a different page.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Page 23.  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, these are matters which should be well

 5     prepared.  It's not that difficult.  I even can do it.  So would you

 6     please take care next time that we're not loosing time on this.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.  Sorry.

 8        Q.   Can you see that paragraph, Mr. Lazarevic?

 9        A.   That he had around 100 men.

10        Q.   Yeah.

11        A.   All right.  I see it.

12        Q.   And I'm looking for the line about four lines down:

13             "Arkan's troops all wore the same uniform with -- but with no

14     obvious rank insignia."

15        A.   Okay.

16        Q.   Did you tell the Prosecution that at the time, that they had no

17     rank insignia?

18        A.   I probably did.  I don't remember.  This is a minor detail.

19        Q.   Okay.  Let's go further down to the next paragraph where it says:

20             "I never saw any of Stamatovic getting supplies so I don't know

21     if they were supplied from elsewhere or if the Arkanovici also collected

22     their supplies as well."

23             Do you see that?

24        A.   I don't.  But I'm listening to you, basically the truth, yes.

25        Q.   Well, have a look at the paragraph, please.

Page 3414

 1             Do you see that -- sorry.

 2             Do you see where it says:

 3             "In fact the only place I ever saw the special police with

 4     regularity in the RSK was at Petrova Gora."

 5        A.   Yes.  And ...

 6        Q.   Is that what you told the Prosecution at the time?

 7        A.   Well, this Petrova Gora -- basically this sentence does not

 8     necessarily mean a location.  It means the area.  It's the same name.  If

 9     I saw you in Petrova Gora doesn't mean I see you at the HQ in

10     Petrova Gora.  I saw you in Petrova Gora.  It's a large national park.

11     And then have you have your own security perimeter around the HQ, which I

12     never entered.

13        Q.   Okay.  But that national park, again, was different to the HQ in

14     Bosnia of the remainder at Pauk, wasn't it?

15        A.   Yeah.  Part of it was in Bosnia, yes.

16        Q.   No.  The appointment I'm making is that seeing Stamatovic's men

17     in the park at Petrova Gora was different -- a different location to the

18     HQ Pauk in Bosnia.

19        A.   Yeah, different location, yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you never saw Mr. Simatovic's men socialise with

21     Arkan's, did you?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   And, in fact, they had a strained relationship, as you saw it,

24     didn't they?

25        A.   That was just my judgement.  I -- you have to understand, I did

Page 3415

 1     not spend days on days just watching what they are doing on location.  I

 2     hardly ever saw them there.

 3        Q.   In the short time that you were able to observe the two groups,

 4     you observed they had a strained relationship, because Arkan's Men had a

 5     reputation of being thieves and murders.

 6        A.   That's the general opinion, yes.

 7        Q.   That was your opinion, wasn't it?

 8        A.   That's a general opinion.

 9        Q.   Was that your opinion?

10        A.   Probably mine.  I still think that today.

11        Q.   And in contrast to that, Stamatovic's police unit at Petrova Gora

12     regarded themselves as upright policemen?

13        A.   Again, I have never been at Petrova Gora HQ.

14        Q.   It was your view that they regarded themselves --

15        A.   The units of the special police from Serbia I thought to be

16     absolutely correct in their behaviour and demeanour, that's what I said.

17        Q.   Their behaviour --

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             THE WITNESS:  If I might add:  In all that time, the only problem

20     that I did have was with the members of Arkan's unit and not with the

21     members of the Mr. Simatovic's unit.

22             MR. JORDASH:

23        Q.   And the -- Simatovic's men viewed Arkan's Men as common

24     criminals.  That was the view --

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 3416

 1        Q.   That was it's view you reached, wasn't it?

 2        A.   I'm sorry?

 3        Q.   That was the view you reached, from what you observed?

 4        A.   I don't quite -- I'm trying to see what you said.

 5             Oh I reached ...

 6        Q.   Did you reach that view?

 7        A.   No, I really don't know what is the relationship between two

 8     different units on the ground.  All I can vouch is to what the general

 9     opinion is about Arkan's men and what I have find out in my dealings with

10     the MUP Serbia or with the Arkan men.  And the problems that did I have

11     with the Arkan's men not with the MUP of Serbia.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I would just like to point out that

13     counsel puts a lot of questions that ask the witness to express what

14     other people thought and what other people believed.  And don't think the

15     witness is in a position, necessarily, to know the answer to that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, although he seems not to have a hesitation to

17     tell us what the general opinion was, et cetera.

18             So, therefore, it's not without a reason, perhaps, that

19     Mr. Jordash elicits this.

20             I am, at the same time, Mr. Jordash, I'm looking at the clock.

21     Usually we have a break after 75 minutes.  We are beyond that.  And since

22     you indicated yesterday that you would need an hour, I thought you might

23     want to finish that hour in the next three minutes.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I can finish now.  That's the end of

25     my questions.

Page 3417

 1        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Lazarevic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

 3             We'll first have a break.  But before taking that break, I would

 4     already ask Madam Usher to escort Mr. Lazarevic out of the courtroom.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  An issue was raised about putting questions to the

 7     witness about a case which apparently is pending against him in Serbia.

 8             What exactly, in what kind of detail would you like to go, and in

 9     order to establish what, Mr. Bakrac, so that we have a better view on the

10     matter?

11             I heard that there were many documents related to this, if I well

12     understand.

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  And I do not

14     intend to use all of those documents, as I've already told my learned

15     friend, Mr. Groome.  In our country, there -- proceedings have a concern

16     structure.  First the police conducts an investigation.  Then submits a

17     criminal report.  Then a prosecutor would submit a request for

18     proceedings.  And then -- to the investigating judge, and then the

19     investigating judge, once he has completed his investigation, would

20     forward it to the prosecutor who would then issue an indictment.

21             So this criminal file is rather large, and I just wanted to pick

22     certain documents from each part in this whole procedure and present it

23     to the witness.  The decision on his arrest, an APB that was issued, and

24     a brief description on his involvement in fraud, whereby he defrauded

25     some 45 individuals and two companies in Serbia.

Page 3418

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And what do you intend to establish through this?

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I am trying to

 3     assist the Trial Chamber in assessing the credibility of this witness and

 4     his testimony.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  For purposes of procedure, you have provided

 6     the Chamber with a copy of the -- copy of the indictment.  I, meanwhile,

 7     was able to read that.

 8             What is there else -- apart from asking the witness can either

 9     say, Of course, that's what I did.  First of all, I would like to find

10     out whether he is aware of the proceedings.  I do not know if there's any

11     knowledge among the parties whether he is aware of being indicted in 2006

12     for this matter.  That's --

13             Then I -- to put to the witness, what could he say?  I mean, the

14     mere fact that a court apparently based on the testimony of witnesses

15     considers there's sufficient reason to indict him is at least a relevant

16     element, that he may not be the honest citizen you would expect a citizen

17     to be.  But to go into any further details, where we get stuck is that

18     this Chamber cannot form an opinion on any such matter, apart from

19     assuming that, if there's evidence, if there's detailed information about

20     who are the parties who apparently have paid him, reading in this, that

21     it should seriously keep in mind that Mr. Lazarevic may well be culpable

22     of such fraud, which would then, of course, have to be considered.  But

23     to go in any further detail, I wonder what the Chamber could do with

24     that.

25             We can't try Mr. Lazarevic here.  We don't have the evidence

Page 3419

 1     before us.  What we have before us is that the Court considered the

 2     evidence sufficient to indict Mr. Lazarevic which is a clear signal that

 3     it's not just a loose allegation, as it was in the decision underlying

 4     the -- as it was in the factual situation underlying the decision in the

 5     Krajisnik Chamber.  That it was, of course, quite a bit different from

 6     what we find in Perisic, in relation to Mr. Sacirbey.

 7             But what else do you want to establish?  I mean, this Chamber is

 8     not assisted by going to go a bit of here and get a bit of there of that

 9     case.  The decision as such, having read it, seems to be that there are

10     serious reasons to believe that Mr. Lazarevic - serious enough to make

11     him stand trial - serious reasons to believe that he may have been

12     involved in fraud for the amounts we find in this document.

13             What else would you like to establish?

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me, on

15     page 30, and I believe that's page 33 in English, where he states:

16             "In the end, in January of 1995" --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Page?

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm referring to his statement.

19             In B/C/S, that's page 30; and in English, I believe it is

20     page 33.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And we are now looking at?

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We are looking at his statement

23     of 1999.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is not in evidence, Mr. Bakrac.

25             So don't ask us to look at anything which is not before us yet.

Page 3420

 1             But tell me what he states there, and then I'll further listen to

 2     you.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It states there, Your Honour, his

 4     words:

 5             "In the end, in January 1999, I fled the SRY."

 6             Now, if you take a look at that time-period, the fraud that he

 7     committed was in the period between September and December 1998.  And in

 8     January 1999, as he himself states, he fled the SRY, FRY, and then from

 9     January, for six months, he had this exchange with the Prosecutors.

10             I will not insist on many of the facts.  I will just point out

11     the indictment to him, ask him about it.  They're people mentioned there,

12     in the indictment, the contract numbers with these people that he

13     actually entered into.  And I will just ask him whether he actually

14     entered into a contract with these individuals.  That would be

15     sufficient.

16             And in the Milosevic case when he was confronted with this when

17     he was asked whether he actually engaged in fraud in 1998, he said that

18     he didn't but added that he had left Serbia a very comfortable life,

19     where he had a Porsche and a Mercedes vehicle, and left the country for

20     political reasons.  So I believe this is very relevant.

21             And please trust me, I will not burden you with all of the

22     documents that have I entered into the e-court but will just restrict my

23     questions to a few documents just do show the MO of this witness which

24     can perhaps be helpful for determining what kinds of person this witness

25     is and his character.

Page 3421

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you assist me in giving me the date and

 2     the page numbers in the Milosevic so that I can re-read them during the

 3     break.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, gladly.

 5             Just bear with me a moment, please.

 6             That's 12683 and 12684.  This was in the re-examination by my

 7     learned friend Groome when he was asked whether he had actually been

 8     given some money for cooperation or gained any benefits from it.  Then he

 9     said that he had had a much better life in Belgrade, and so on.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I was asking for the page references and date

11     references.  I received the page, not yet the date.  Is that 29th,

12     30th, or 31st.

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The 31st, Your Honours.

14     I apologise.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The 31st of October, 2002.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Stanisic, I do not feel very comfortable in having made this

19     session longer than I intended to do.  Apologies for that.

20             We'll resume at 20 minutes past 4.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23                           --- On resuming at 4.26 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lazarevic, it will be Mr. Bakrac who will now

25     cross-examine you.  He is also going to make breaks, although it's easier

Page 3422

 1     because he will speak his own language and you're speaking -- well, I do

 2     not know whether I should say your own language, whether you consider

 3     English your own language or not.  But, again, try to slow down and make

 4     those breaks.

 5             Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.

 6             Mr. Bakrac, by the way, is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you.

10             May I just take this opportunity to advise the Chamber that for

11     the first time today we have our new Case Manager, in the courtroom.

12     Mr. Vulic Bozidar.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

14        Q.   Sir, could you please tell me what you would prefer me to address

15     with you?  Mr. Lazarevic or Mr. Witness?

16        A.   Well, I have been warned by His Honour, Judge Orie.  It really

17     makes no difference, so go ahead.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It is very kind what Mr. Bakrac does.

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   I was going to suggest that you provide your answers in English

23     so that we may avoid the overlapping, so I will now begin.

24             Would you please take a look at your statement provided to the

25     Office of the Prosecutor between January 1st and July 1st, 1999.

Page 3423

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we please pull up page 1 of this

 2     statement, both in English and in the B/C/S version.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And not to be shown to the public.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Sir, Mr. Witness, I will put my question to you while we wait for

 7     the statement to come up on the monitor, and then you will actually be

 8     able to actually see it and read it.

 9             You said that you were born in 1947 and that in 1956 you moved to

10     Sarajevo and that you studied languages and graduated from the

11     Sarajevo University in 1968.  You -- is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.  Well, it's not really Sarajevo University.  It is

13     philosophy.  Okay.

14        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, one more thing:  I would appeal to you - please

15     don't misunderstand me - but I would like to tell you that our time is

16     restricted, so, please, just restrict your answers to the questions that

17     I pose to you.

18             Now, your father was employed by the so-called UDBA; correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   And he was the one who actually introduced you to Mr. Zimonja,

21     who worked for KOS, for the army, the counter-intelligence service of the

22     army; correct?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   My question is this:  Yesterday you tried to describe, in a cute

25     sort of way, the level of frictions and -- frictions between these two

Page 3424

 1     services.

 2             You said this could be compared to a football match between

 3     Partizan and the Red Star one of them being, in this case the -- the army

 4     would be the UDBA and the Red Star -- the army would be Crvena Zvezda and

 5     the other one would be the Partizan.

 6             Now tell me, please --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the last part

 8     of his question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last part of your

10     question, Mr. Bakrac.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   The last portion of my question related to this:  How come that

13     your father, who was an UDBA employee, did not actually introduce you to

14     someone from UDBA so that you could work for them, but, rather, he

15     introduced you for -- with someone or to someone from the army?  And you

16     said yesterday that there were frictions between these two services.

17        A.   I can't explain that.  Why -- what was the decision behind it,

18     but, you know, that's how it happened.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             If I understood the next paragraph from your statement correctly,

21     you said, in paragraph 2 on page 1, in the very first line:

22             "The first task that Zimonja gave me was to infiltrate student

23     groups at Sarajevo University, which, in 1968 were involved in unrests.

24     He also tasked me with keeping an eye on foreigners in Sarajevo.  This

25     was supposed to be accomplished by my arranging chance meetings with

Page 3425

 1     them."

 2             Is that correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   Which foreigners in Sarajevo were you referring to when you said

 5     that?  Did you mean the foreign students or some other foreigners?

 6        A.   No, the other foreigners, not students.

 7        Q.   Could you provide an example.  In 1968, in Sarajevo, what

 8     foreigners were there and what kind of positions were they in?

 9        A.   A lot of eastern Germans, if I remember correctly.  There were a

10     few French, a few Brits.  And the positions, I don't know, it was just to

11     kind of arrange a chance meeting with them, help them out, try to get

12     close to them.

13        Q.   But you being an intelligence officer who is supposed to approach

14     them and assist them, offer your assistance, you were supposed to also

15     know what kind of job or what kind of work these people were doing;

16     correct?

17        A.   We're talking about the very, very early beginning of my career

18     as an intelligence officer, so I don't think I was ever informed about a

19     particular -- about a certain -- I was never given a task of an

20     individual that I'm going to follow that person, that he does that and

21     that and we want to know more about him.  It was just establishing the

22     contact and we see how we go from there.

23        Q.   And if I understood your answer correctly, since you didn't know

24     anything else about them, you would just establish contact with them,

25     say, Hello, I'm so-and-so, and what's your name and -- so what kind of

Page 3426

 1     report would you then send?

 2        A.   Well, it didn't go exactly like that.  It would be more a

 3     situation which obviously the foreigner needed some assistance, whether

 4     it's in a store buying a souvenir or trying to buy an ice-cream, he can't

 5     explain; things like that.  And the initial report?  There wouldn't be

 6     any unless the situation developed in that direction that it needed a

 7     report.

 8        Q.   So if I understood you correctly, you would send the report to

 9     Zimonja, saying a German bought an ice-cream cone in an ice-cream shop;

10     correct?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please put serious questions to the

12     witness, Mr. Bakrac.  Until now, none of the questions the Chamber was

13     able to detect what the relevance was.  If you would first put the

14     question -- questions to the witness where it is clear to the Chamber

15     what the relevance is, and if there is then any time left, you can ask

16     questions about ice-creams.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, in 1969, you said you served in the military, the

20     compulsory military service for 18 months, in Kraljevo; is that correct?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   And you also say I was assigned -- I had contact with KOS

23     officers at the barracks where I was posted, but they never asked me to

24     do any work on behalf of KOS during my army service.

25             Correct?

Page 3427

 1        A.   The only thing they asked me at the time was to supply all the

 2     name and addresses of people that are living overseas.

 3        Q.   So in 1969, while you were serving in the army, you were asked to

 4     provide addresses of people who lived abroad?  Which people?  Soldiers?

 5     Which people living abroad?

 6        A.   People that I knew.

 7        Q.   Very well.  And already then, even before you went to serve your

 8     military service, you had established contact with Mr. Nikola Zimonja;

 9     correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   All right then.  Now I would like to show you an exhibit.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please pull up P265, or,

13     rather, 65 ter document 265.

14             MS. MARCUS:  Excuse me, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Although we did receive about 55 documents from the

17     Defence, unless I'm mistaken, I do not think that 65 ter 265 was on that

18     list.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it was on

21     the list that the Prosecutor was going to use during their examination,

22     and that is the reason why I did not put it on my list.  It is true that,

23     at the last moment, the Prosecutor actually removed six of the documents

24     from their list, but I don't think this one was among them.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, as a matter of fact, I find on the list of the

Page 3428

 1     Prosecution and -- those exhibited, 262 and 266.

 2             Any further problems in dealing with the document?  If it was

 3     once on your list, then I take it that you have looked at it.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honours, we have no problem with the

 5     Defence counsel using it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then you could even have refrained from

 7     making this observation if it previously was on your list, Ms. Marcus.

 8     Something to think over for the next time.

 9             Mr. Bakrac.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, do you recognise this military ID?  It says it's a

12     duplicate but I see it bears no photo or signature.

13             Is this perhaps one of the documents that you handed over to the

14     Office of the Prosecutor?

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we see the next page, please,

16     where we can see all the information.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, this is the document that I gave, yes.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Lazarevic, my first question is the following:

20     Is it common for a document of this type to be left without a photograph

21     and without the signature and not to bear a stamp over the -- the photo?

22        A.   That I wouldn't know.  That's how it was given to me.

23        Q.   Fair enough, sir.  Now, Mr. Lazarevic, could you take a look now

24     at page 7.

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The next page in e-court, please.

Page 3429

 1     Could we have the next page on the screens, please.

 2        Q.   It says here, Mr. Lazarevic, actually it shows the dates when you

 3     actually were in the army serving; correct?

 4        A.   1966 to 1969?  I can't see it really, I'm sorry.

 5        Q.   Yes.  Well, it says from the 29th of September, 1966, to

 6     12 February 1968.

 7             You've just told us that in 1968 you met Mr. Zimonja and that you

 8     went to serve your compulsory military service in 1969.

 9             Now tell me, which of the two is true?  Is this document

10     falsified, or was what you said true and this document counterfeit, or is

11     it possible that you met Mr. Zimonja before 1966, when you were 17?

12        A.   No.  This is a correct date which is in Vojnak Uzice [phoen],

13     which is a duplicate.  So that is correct.  So the 1968 I did met

14     Zimonja -- well, I actually finished my military service before 1968, end

15     of the 1968.  1966 to 1968.

16        Q.   How, then, was it possible that you would be assigned tasks from

17     KOS in the army?  You told us a moment ago that, first, you met Zimonja,

18     then you went to serve in the military, and then you were assigned a task

19     to actually monitor the movement of foreigners.  But now you told us that

20     you met Zimonja after you've completed your military service.

21             So which of the two is actually true?

22        A.   The truth is that I have done my military service but I, for some

23     reason, misjudged the year that I was giving to the Prosecution.  But

24     this is a genuine document.

25        Q.   Well, the problem is not in the years, Mr. Lazarevic, but,

Page 3430

 1     rather, in your activities.  There is no issue here with the years.  You

 2     said that first you met Zimonja, then you went to serve in the army, and

 3     then you were given some tasks by KOS to provide some names of some

 4     foreigners.  And now, five minutes later, you're telling us, No, I

 5     actually met Zimonja after I served in the army.

 6             So you actually concocted this whole story that you were given a

 7     task to provide names of foreigners while you were serving in the army.

 8     Correct?

 9        A.   No, it is not correct.  This is just a simple genuine mistake

10     about give the date which happens, I don't know, some 30 years ago.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lazarevic, a mistake in a date is that you say

12     whether it was in 1968 or 1967.  However, what you did first and what you

13     did after that is a matter of sequence of events.  Therefore, it's more

14     than just a mistake on a date.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I will no

17     longer insist on this.

18        Q.   Witness, after you completed military service, you returned to

19     Sarajevo and you were -- you got employed at the department store Nama;

20     correct?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   What kind of work did you do there?

23        A.   I don't remember.  Some clerical job, I don't know.

24        Q.   Did you send reports to Nikola Zimonja at the time?

25        A.   No.  If I had nothing to send, I didn't send anything.

Page 3431

 1        Q.   And then out of the blue, according to your statement, on page 1,

 2     you say:

 3             "The first big assignment I got was to plant some films on a

 4     German tourist who was camping on the coast."

 5             So all of a sudden Zimonja came up with these tapes and he said,

 6     Plant them on a German tourist who was camping on the coast.

 7             Is that true?  That's what it says in your statement.

 8        A.   It is true, but I wouldn't call it suddenly.

 9        Q.   Well, you said that you worked at Nama department store, that you

10     hadn't been given any task or assignment, that you were trying again to

11     arrange some chance meetings with foreigners who were staying at

12     hotel Evropa, and you tried to establish contact with them in the

13     neighbourhood of this hotel.  We've already discussed this.

14             And then you said:

15             "The first big assignment was ..."

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, are you quoting from a statement which

17     is not in evidence.  I'd like to see that on the screen so to be able to

18     follow what you're putting to the witness.

19             Could we please have the statement, not to be shown to the

20     public, but at least in e-court on the screen.

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  I have

22     this nagging fear that I will inadvertently disclose something to the

23     public.

24             But could we see, then, page 1 of the statement.  It is the last

25     paragraph on page 1 -- or, rather, page 2 in English.

Page 3432

 1        Q.   There, now you can see it in English.  And since you are giving

 2     your answers in English, now everyone will be able to follow what we're

 3     saying.

 4             So you said:

 5             "The first big assignment I got was to plant some films on a

 6     German tourist who was camping on coast.  I received the the films from

 7     Zimonja and then I travelled to the island of Rab."

 8             Correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

11             Yes, please proceed.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Now do you know what -- what kind of footage it was?  What was

14     depicted in those films?

15        A.   I have no idea.

16        Q.   Were you interested in the contents of the films?

17        A.   Not really.

18        Q.   Could you perhaps get -- could you perhaps imagine that this man

19     on whom you were planting these films could, in some situations, be

20     accused of a very serious criminal offence of intelligence collection?

21             Were you aware of that?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Uh-huh.  No, so you weren't aware of this.

24             Why, then, do you go on to say:

25             "To be honest, at the time, the whole thing was very appealing

Page 3433

 1     and exciting to me, and I didn't give much thought to what kind of

 2     consequences this German might have."

 3             So what did you mean there by consequences for the German?

 4        A.   I could only assume, but I would not have any exact reasoning for

 5     it, what would happen to him, nor did I think about it.  And, of course,

 6     I was excited.  I was a young man.  I saw myself -- go ahead.

 7        Q.   But you could imagine that some serious consequences might ensue

 8     for this man?

 9        A.   No, I didn't think of that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That wasn't the question, Mr. Lazarevic.

11             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you could imagine, not

13     whether you did.

14             I mean, if you plant some material on another person, he may face

15     the negative consequences of an untruthful created situation.

16             Would you agree with me?

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do, Your Honour.  I agree with you, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And may I take it that being young and being

19     excited that you were still aware that planting somewhere, something,

20     which wasn't there originally, could do harm?

21             THE WITNESS:  I don't think I actually thought about it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You were not thinking at all at the time or ...

23             THE WITNESS:  No, I was thinking I'm doing a favour to somebody

24     in my own country; I'm doing it against a person that I dislike

25     intensely, being a German.  I was thinking along those lines.

Page 3434

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   So based on your answers that you're providing now,

 5     Mr. Lazarevic, may I claim that even to this day, even today, here, as

 6     you speak, although you're aware that you might cause harm to these two

 7     accused, you are still putting forward a whole series of untruths that

 8     could be hurtful to them?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mr. Bakrac, could you please split up this

10     question because there is an unexpressed suggestion in your question that

11     the witness is now giving false testimony as he, at the time, did implant

12     false evidence in a situation.

13             If you want to put that to the witness, fine.  But then do it

14     explicitly, and not somewhere hidden in a question.  So, therefore, you

15     may rephrase the question.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, that was not my

17     intention.  I didn't mean to hide anything.

18             But based on the statement provided by this witness and his

19     answers to your and my questions, I have concluded - and this is what I'm

20     proposing to the witness - that even today he is trying to plant things

21     on other people, that he's telling untruths without thinking of the

22     possible consequences of those untruths for these two accused here.

23        Q.   So is that correct, Mr. Lazarevic?  Do you agree with me?

24        A.   No, I absolutely disagree with you.  You're drawing a line

25     between something that happened --

Page 3435

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  This doesn't need any further explanation.  If the

 2     witness says that this is not true, I take it that he says he is not

 3     lying at this moment.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore it's not -- whether -- the Chamber will,

 6     at a later stage, will, of course, evaluate all the evidence in this

 7     case, including the evidence of, Mr. Lazarevic.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, after this episode with the Germans and according

11     to your statement that's - and that's on page 2 in English and page 3 in

12     B/C/S - you left for England where you were assigned the task of

13     monitoring or observing the Serbian emigré circles in England.  Correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   When did you go to England, and who gave you this assignment?

16        A.   I would really have to look at the passport when I entered

17     England.  At this particular moment in time, I can't remember.  But it's

18     in my passport.

19        Q.   Approximately, can you remember the time?

20        A.   1970.

21        Q.   How long were you in London for?

22        A.   18 months, I think.

23        Q.   All right, sir.  Can you please look at your statement now.  Can

24     you look at page 3 in the B/C/S and 2 in the English.

25             In paragraph 2 you say - let me not lose time to read all about

Page 3436

 1     your work in London - but you say this lasted for about nine months but

 2     then they told me that they wanted me to go to Australia.  Nine months

 3     and 18 months is very different, even from this point in time, looking

 4     back.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Actually this is on page 3 in the

 6     English, I apologise.

 7             In the English version it's page 3, paragraph -- exactly in the

 8     middle.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Mr. Bakrac, if you had my passport in your hand,

10     and you have seen what time I left, what time I arrived Dover, and what

11     time I left London to go back to France, you're asking me now suddenly to

12     remember how long I stayed, and you already know?  It's an unfair

13     question because I already told you --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lazarevic, you're not invited to comment on the

15     way in which you're cross-examined.  You're invited to answer the

16     question.

17             THE WITNESS:  I apologise.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you have an explanation for

19     the fact that you once stated nine months to have been in England and why

20     you now state that it was 18 months.

21             THE WITNESS:  It was nine months.  Right now, the first number

22     that came to my head was 18, so I said 18.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you perhaps not immediately express what

24     comes to your mind by verify internally as well the accuracy of what

25     comes to your mind.

Page 3437

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   After that, KOS ordered you to go to Australia; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   How did they do that?

 6        A.   Through Yugoslav Club in London.

 7        Q.   Was there a particular person who came to you and told you that

 8     you were to go to Australia and explain to you why you needed to do that?

 9        A.   There was not a particular man.  There was a message left for me

10     to get in touch.

11        Q.   Yet in touch with whom?

12        A.   Zimonja.

13        Q.   Get in touch with Zimonja where?

14        A.   As soon as possible.  By a telephone, or in person, or however.

15     I believe I spoke on the phone to him, if I remember correctly again.

16        Q.   And what did he tell you then, if you can remember?

17        A.   I remember he said something to do with a bunch of Croatian

18     emigrés arriving from Australia into former Yugoslavia, entering at the

19     border with Austria, being followed along the terrain there, and they

20     more or less shot everybody except one guy, and he gave him information

21     that they are actually from Woolongong area in Victoria, Australia.

22     That's about it.

23        Q.   And then you went there.  Did he give you a direct order to go

24     there?

25        A.   I don't remember his direct order, but it was a suggestion that

Page 3438

 1     might be a good thing if could I get there and there was no reason why I

 2     couldn't.  I didn't have any obligations to anybody.

 3        Q.   Excellent.  Who financed your trip to Australia?

 4        A.   Australian government.

 5        Q.   On what grounds did it finance your trip to Australia?

 6        A.   Immigration.

 7        Q.   Did you perhaps work for their service?

 8        A.   No, no, no.  I just filed an application for immigration to

 9     Australia.  Once it was approved, the ticket was paid for me.

10        Q.   Very well.  And then when you came to Australia, to Woolongong,

11     if I'm pronouncing the name of the town correctly, where did you get a

12     job?

13        A.   A local bank.

14        Q.   And what did you do in the local bank?

15        A.   Administrative work.

16        Q.   Did you do any kind of espionage assignments in the bank at that

17     time?

18        A.   I think they might have asked me to check what is the financial

19     status of some of the Yugoslavs living there.

20        Q.   Is that something that you think, or you are asserting that?  Is

21     that something that you are sure that they asked you to do or you are not

22     sure that they asked to you do?

23        A.   I'm pretty sure.  I'm pretty sure they asked me to do that.

24        Q.   Who asked you to do that?

25        A.   The people that sent me to Australia.

Page 3439

 1        Q.   You just said that you went to Australia at the expense of the

 2     Australian government, as an immigrant, and that Zimonja just made a

 3     suggestion that you should go to Australia.

 4        A.   It all had to do with building a cover when I arrived there.

 5        Q.   Who did you report to when you arrived Australia?

 6        A.   If I remember correctly, it was again done through

 7     Yugoslav Embassy, or consulate, or something.

 8        Q.   I'm going to read back to you your statement on page 3, both in

 9     the English and B/C/S version, where you say:

10             "Shortly after my arrival in Sydney, I was taken by members of

11     the Yugoslav Embassy staff to a house where they briefed me about my work

12     in Australia."

13             Then you go on.

14             So Yugoslav Embassy staff in Australia knew that you were a KOS

15     agent.  Is that right?

16        A.   I suppose.  I don't know.

17        Q.   What is the basis for your assumption?

18        A.   The way they dealt with me was just as a young Yugoslav agent who

19     came in as immigrant and is willing to continue to work for the Yugoslav

20     government.

21        Q.   And did you continue your contacts with Zimonja through the

22     Yugoslav Embassy in Australia?

23        A.   On and off.

24        Q.   In your testimony to date you just said that Zimonja was the only

25     one who knew that you were in KOS and that Zimonja was the only one you

Page 3440

 1     knew, had something happened to Zimonja you would not have known whom to

 2     get in touch with.  Is that not what you previously stated?

 3        A.   I did state that previously, but it was more as a thinking about

 4     a joke than anything else.  Of course I'd know who to get in touch with,

 5     if I needed to.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Very well.  You said that you were supposed to

 7     monitor the financial situation of Serb emigrés.  How would you be able

 8     to establish who had how much money in their accounts?  Can you explain

 9     that, please.

10        A.   If you worked in a bank, you have the name of the clients, you

11     can enter the accounts and see what the status is.

12        Q.   Using a computer?

13        A.   [Previous translation continues] ...

14        Q.   In 1971?

15        A.   I said you can physically go and look it up.  I didn't ever

16     mention a computer.

17        Q.   And so you did have the possibility physically to look at the

18     account number of each one of our citizens and see exactly how much money

19     was on that account; is that correct?

20        A.   Not -- not necessarily that way that you suggested.

21        Q.   How then?  Can you explain it to us, please.  How did you

22     actually implement the assignment that you were given and because of

23     which you had come to Australia?  That is, how could you see how much was

24     on these accounts?

25        A.   I would be given the name of the person to check on.

Page 3441

 1        Q.   Who would you receive this name from?

 2        A.   Those who sent me there.

 3        Q.   And then you would freely, without any problems, be able to

 4     access that account, as a bank employee?

 5        A.   Yes, very easy.

 6        Q.   And this data about the money, how many people did you compile

 7     this data for?

 8        A.   I have no idea.

 9        Q.   Excellent.  Thank you.

10             After that, you were given an assignment to join the --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

12        Q.   -- painters and port dockers workers union.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lazarevic, from what I read in your statement,

14     you did this job for approximately one year.

15             Now, you must have an idea on how many persons you were asked to

16     check on their financial situation.  Was this a weekly event?  Was it

17     three times a week?  Was it once a month?  You must have some

18     recollection to that.

19             THE WITNESS:  I will tell you.  First the thing that I discovered

20     that Woolongong itself is predominantly Macedonian population there --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I was not asking for such details.

22             THE WITNESS:  Oh.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I want you to focus on whether this was a monthly

24     event.  You said you got names and you were to check on persons.  The

25     question simply was:  How often did you do that?

Page 3442

 1             Now, if you have worked there for a year, it's difficult to

 2     understand that you say, No idea.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Personally, that I remember, the closest number I

 4     can come up with is about 20 to 25, that is it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That would mean twice a month, approximately.  Is

 6     that?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Well, I was not originally given all the names at

 8     the same time and given a period of time to find out; I might have been

 9     given a name this week, a month down the road another name, and so on.

10     But I'd say, in total, over a year, I don't think it was more than 25

11     to 30.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So do know an answer to that question.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I would

15     have a whole series of questions but because my time is limited, I'm not

16     going to dwell on this anymore.

17        Q.   After this, you were told to join the painters and dockers union.

18     Is that your next assignment?

19        A.   It was my next assignment, but it was not suggested.  It was my

20     option.

21        Q.   That was your option then.  I'm now going to read to you what you

22     told the investigators of the Prosecutor's office.

23              "After I left the job at the bank, I went to work at a steel

24     mill, an enterprise which employed a large number of Yugoslavs, all of

25     whom were affiliated with the painters and dockers union.  This

Page 3443

 1     organisation was extremely powerful.  And because its members was

 2     employed in a number of key industries" --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, when reading, your speed of speech goes

 4     up.  So try to read slowly.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this excerpt is on

 6     page 4 of the English version, the first paragraph.

 7        Q.   Sir, I'm not going to go back and lose time.  Have you found what

 8     I have just been reading so that I can continue?

 9             "This organisation was extremely powerful.  And because its

10     members were employed in a number of key industries, this union had the

11     ability to effectively shut down Australia with a strike.  Also, the

12     union, at the time, was providing funds to the Irish Republican Army.

13     The Yugoslav government was interested in this aspect since they were

14     supplying weapons to the IRA."

15             You yourself thus decided to go or you were given the assignment.

16     Well, let's let that be my first question.  The dockers and painters

17     union with Serb members was able to paralyse or shut down Australia with

18     a strike and it also financed the IRA.

19             Can you please explain how exactly this worked?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And could we, at the same time, have the next

21     page in English on our screens.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, we don't have a lot of time, and I have a lot of

24     questions for you, so kindly, would you, please --

25        A.   What was your last question?  Because there are some similarity.

Page 3444

 1     I never claimed that the painters and dockers union was a Serbian union.

 2     When did I say that?  There were some Serbs working within the docks of

 3     Sydney, and it was a very strong union, but it is a predominantly

 4     Australian union, not Serbian union.

 5        Q.   You say that this was a company which employed a large number of

 6     Yugoslavs, all of whom were affiliated with the painters and dockers

 7     union.  Is this not correct?

 8             You can see for yourself what your statement says in English.

 9     Does that reflect what you yourself told the Prosecutor's office or not?

10     Can you please look at that.

11        A.   I'm just trying to find out which paragraph you're talking about.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the last paragraph on the page which is in

13     front of you.

14             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  The first line is totally incorrect.  I did

15     work at the steel works.  The steel works does not belong to the painters

16     and dockers union.  They're a different union all together.  But I did

17     go --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- let's --

19             What do you want to know, Mr. Bakrac?  I can imagine that one of

20     the things you'd like to know is why Mr. Lazarevic told us that it was

21     his option to go there, it was not suggested to him.  Let's try to get to

22     the core of what you apparently want to know.

23             Please put a clear question in this respect.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is sufficient.

25     We're losing too much time.  I have a lot of questions.  I'm not going

Page 3445

 1     dwell on this.  I'm now just going to complete this KOS period of work

 2     with one more question.

 3        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, can you please look at page 4 in the Serbian, in

 4     the B/C/S, and page 4 in the English, please.  I am going to slowly read

 5     it to you.

 6             "In that period, I moved around some, working as an interpreter.

 7     I did not like Australia, and I bore a grudge against my handlers for

 8     sending me there in the first place."

 9             Well, let us stop there.  Then in the statement you say that they

10     sent you, whereas earlier you said that this was your decision.  What is

11     true of these two things?

12        A.   I never said it was my decision to go to Australia.

13        Q.   Very well.  Then I misunderstood you, Mr. Lazarevic.

14             Then you go on to say:

15             "These feelings had been compounded in 1975 when my mother died.

16     She had been sick with cancer for several months and was hospitalised for

17     some period, KOS was, of course, aware of this, yet they did not tell me

18     anything.  I was informed of her death three months after she died.  This

19     caused me, for the first time, to really feel disillusioned with them."

20             Mr. Lazarevic, were you on some kind of covert assignment so

21     secret that you were not able to contact your family in Yugoslavia and

22     that KOS, three months after the death of your mother - and I'm sorry; I

23     regret having to ask you about this unfortunate affair - but it is very

24     strange to me that you would be on such a secret assignment that you

25     would be unable to be in contact with your family so that it was

Page 3446

 1     necessary for KOS to let you know three months after the fact that your

 2     mother had died?

 3        A.   No, it wasn't.  I mean, at my age, I would send a letter once a

 4     month and maybe get a reply to it in a month from my mother.  She lived

 5     alone.  And if I didn't get a letter in two months, I didn't much about

 6     it.

 7             But do you know how -- do you know how I got informed about it?

 8     Would you like to know?

 9        Q.   No, no.  Sir, Mr. Lazarevic, your mother did not have a

10     telephone.

11        A.   No, she didn't have telephone, no.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Where did she live?  I'm sorry for having to ask.

13     Where did she live?

14        A.   In Sarajevo.

15        Q.   In an apartment; is that correct?

16        A.   Yeah.

17        Q.   And she didn't have a telephone.  All right.  Thank you.

18             Mr. Lazarevic, you keep referring in your statement, and I'm

19     going finish here with your work as a KOS agent, you keep referring to

20     what KOS is.  And can you please tell me what KOS means, and what is the

21     actual correct name of that service that you were working for?

22        A.   The general name that everybody used was Kontraobavesajna Sluzba.

23     Their real name:  Kontraobavesajna Grupa.

24        Q.   And I assert that that is not the correct answer.  In the

25     Yugoslav People's Army, what is the correct name of that organ; do you

Page 3447

 1     know?

 2        A.   As far as I'm concerned, it was KOS and always will be KOS.

 3        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, when you testified in the Milosevic case,

 4     Witness Candic testified after you.  Mustafa Candic, he's not a protected

 5     witness; I can refer to him.  I have the page and the reference and

 6     everything.  He explained, because he worked in the air force

 7     intelligence service, he explained that KOS, K-O-S, it's actually a name

 8     that actually stayed among the public from Second World War; whereas now

 9     you're stating that it was always KOS and that is -- but actually it's

10     only the name that the service is known by amongst the people.  But those

11     who actually worked in the service know what the correct name of the

12     service is.

13             I'm going to tell you now.  Did you have a KOS in your brigade,

14     the 21st Krajina Brigade -- actually, in the 21st Corps?  Did you have a

15     KOS in the 21st Corps?

16        A.   Apart from myself, I don't know.  There are a lot of colonels

17     there, but they all claim that they are internal security. [B/C/S spoken]

18        Q.   Did you ever hear of the correct name, the security organ or the

19     security administration, and do you know the structure of the security

20     administration along the vertical line?

21        A.   I was not a uniformed officer of the JNA, apart from serving

22     national service.  So my knowledge is probably very limited about the

23     vertical structure of organs within the army.  Sorry.

24        Q.   [In English] Fair enough.  [Interpretation] Fair enough.  I'm not

25     going to --

Page 3448

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, I'm trying to understand your questions

 2     and the answer.  You put to the witness, you say, KOS, that's not the

 3     proper name.  Then the witness suggests something else with Grupa at the

 4     end, and then you say, That's not the correct answer.  Fine.  Then you go

 5     on and you continue by asking, Was there KOS in your 21st - what

 6     was it? - did you have a KOS in the 21st -- it reads corps, but ...

 7             Now, what, then, should the Chamber understand this to be?  KOS

 8     isn't the proper name?  The name given by the witness is not the correct

 9     name?  Then you're asking about the KOS -- what is, then, that question?

10     Why not put to the witness apparently what -- what you consider to be the

11     right name?  You ask him, Was it KOS?  Or perhaps official name was

12     different.  You say that's inaccurate.  Then it -- the evidence flows

13     away.  Where the Chamber is interested to know what apparently you're

14     putting to this witness, that he is not giving the right answers.

15             Then give him the name as you understand it to be and say, Does

16     this refresh your memory?

17             Then we know what we are talking about.

18             But, at this moment, at least I - I cannot speak for my

19     colleagues, but they will kick me under the table if I am wrong - I get

20     lost in this, if I may say, in this little chaos.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand you

23     completely, and I understand where my error is.  But my error is time

24     related.  This is a very important witness for us, and, really -- well,

25     it's like this.  I am -- like this.

Page 3449

 1        Q.   I am asserting, and it exists here, let's say the command of the

 2     24th Brigade, then the security organ, so the top -- the highest instance

 3     in the military that you claim you worked for for 30 years is called the

 4     security administration; whereas the lower units are security organs and

 5     security groups.

 6             This is what I am asserting and putting to you:  That you don't

 7     even know the name of the service that you allegedly worked for for 30

 8     years.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

10             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I just wanted to ask counsel if we

11     could know when he quotes something.  It appeared he was quoting

12     something.  I'm not sure if he was.  But if he was, maybe we could know

13     what he is quoting.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I think he consulted his notes, but ...

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just looked at my

16     notes because there are thousands of documents where the security organ

17     is mentioned.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is put to you, Mr. Lazarevic, what the

19     proper names were of the -- of the security organs.  Top, highest

20     instance, security administration; at the lower level, security organs

21     and security groups.

22             That's what is put to you.

23             Could you comment on that?

24             THE WITNESS:  That is not how I see it.  When Mr. Bakrac is

25     talking about security organs, to my mind springs security, internal,

Page 3450

 1     leaning with security of the corps, it's brigades, this is not what I was

 2     doing.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You're saying --

 4             THE WITNESS:  I believe I worked for KOS.  Name KOS is well

 5     known.  Stayed with me all my life.  If they changed it sometimes during

 6     their history, I don't know.  And I claim again:  I was not --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, no.  Your explanation simply is that what

 8     Mr. Bakrac is referring to may be internal security organs or elements or

 9     whatever you would call it, and that's not you were working for, and

10     that's not what you are referring to.  Is that?

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             Please, next question, Mr. Bakrac.

14             THE WITNESS:  Can I ask for a very very short break, like for

15     five minutes?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, we will even have a longer break.  And I already

17     will allow you to leave the courtroom.

18             Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Lazarevic --

19             THE WITNESS:  Back in five?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, we will have the normal break now.  So you

21     will have some 25 to 30 minutes.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, in your cross-examination you have to

24     make up your mind.  What my experience is until now is that you started

25     with a few questions of which the relevance was totally unclear, not only

Page 3451

 1     to me but to my colleagues as well, and then you entered in some areas

 2     and always halfway, when the confusion was complete, you said, I've no

 3     further time for this; I will move on to my next item.

 4             That is not assisting the Chamber very much.  You have to select

 5     the most important items of your cross-examination and then to explore

 6     them at a level so that we can learn something from it, that the witness

 7     is not telling the truth, or that he is distorting the truth, whatever.

 8             But to take it halfway, leave us with a lot of uncertainties

 9     which then are not resolved in any way, is -- and then to say, Well, I

10     haven't got much more time, that is not really -- I can imagine, for

11     example, that if you're talking about a passport, when he entered into

12     England, that you would have explored that further and that you would

13     have that passport or whatever.  But to come to a conclusion on matters

14     you are touching upon, that's what really would assist the Chamber.

15             Would you please keep that in mind for the time to come.

16             We'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to 6.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19                           --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22             Could we now pull up Exhibit 2D58 in e-court.  And while we wait

23     for it to appear, let me just say that it was a document that was

24     disclosed to us under Rule 68 from -- by the OTP.

25        Q.   And I would ask the witness to take a look at this document and

Page 3452

 1     tell us if he recognises it.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Let us wait for a moment to have the

 3     English version on the screens as well.

 4        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, since we can see both versions, both the English

 5     and the B/C/S versions on the screens, could you please tell us, after

 6     looking at it carefully, tell us, do you recognise this document?

 7        A.   I don't see my signature on it.

 8        Q.   Yes, I agree.  Your signature is missing there.  We received this

 9     document from the Prosecutor.  And my question for you is:  Do you

10     recognise this document or not?  That's all.

11             As enclosure it says short curriculum vitae and then, above that,

12     Topusko, 28th of April, 1992, respectfully Slobodan Lazarevic, Topusko,

13     no signature.  I agree.

14             So my question to you is:  Did you actually type this document?

15        A.   I don't remember, to be perfectly honest with you.  I really do

16     not remember this document.

17        Q.   You do not remember a significant thing such as this, that on the

18     28th of April, 1992, you requested the proper body in the command to

19     take -- to accept your application in view of the fact that you were

20     employed as a volunteer in the 8th Organisational Group as a

21     communications officer with the ECMM and UNPROFOR since 17th January and

22     so on and so forth.

23             So you can't remember that you actually sent a document of this

24     nature, together with your resume?

25        A.   There is a distinct possibility, but I don't remember it.

Page 3453

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since the witness

 2     admits that this might be a document that he authored, I would like to

 3     tender it into document -- into evidence.  And also, something that I

 4     actually omitted earlier, that military ID, to be admitted into evidence.

 5     So first could we please have document 2D265 admitted and then this one,

 6     2D58.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I just query whether the witness has

 9     authenticated the document.  That's -- that's our submission.  If the

10     witness can authenticate the document, then we would have no objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And if he cannot?

12             MS. MARCUS:  If he cannot, then perhaps there's another basis for

13     authentication.  Or maybe the -- if the counsel would like to tender it

14     from the Bar table, then I suppose -- just a moment, Your Honours.

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

17             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, perhaps, for the moment, with your

18     leave, it could be marked for identification, if anything, so that we

19     could have a moment to look into it a little more deeply.  It's one of

20     numerous documents that we received just last night.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But isn't it true that Mr. Bakrac told us that

22     he received this document from you under Rule 68?  And now 68 is an

23     unclear reference to whether it's 68(i) or 68(ii).  Is this the relevant

24     document or is it exculpatory?

25             How was it presented to you, Mr. Bakrac?  A reference to Rule 68

Page 3454

 1     is not -- makes quite a difference --

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, from

 3     what I could see, all it states there is under Rule 68.  Now, you know I

 4     don't want to repeat here the circumstances under which we actually began

 5     to work on this case, but if you allow me a moment, I will try and

 6     research this a bit further.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps Mr. Groome has an answer to that.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I can't answer that question.  But we

 9     received 54 documents trying to figure out what we can about these

10     documents.  There is a note in the file that may have received this

11     document from the witness himself.  I'm trying to confirm that now.

12     Obviously we have no objection if the document were received from the

13     witness himself.  I'm in the middle of trying to determine that at the

14     moment, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The document will be marked for identification, and

16     the parties are invited to make further submissions as to its origin or

17     whatever information could shed light on the authenticity of the

18     document.

19             So for the Chamber to further consider whether it will request

20     authentication of this document.

21             Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Exhibit D19, marked for

23     identification, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             It will keep its status for the time being.

Page 3455

 1             Then the military ID?  Any objections against ...

 2             MS. MARCUS:  None, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  None.

 4             Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D20, Your Honours.

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I can be of

 7     assistance, my colleague just informed me that this document was

 8     disclosed under Rule 68.  It doesn't cite the subparagraph exactly.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, apparently from the words of the

10     Prosecution, it needs to be explored in more detail.  I've given a

11     ruling.  Submissions are invited.  Not at this moment, orally, to be

12     made.  But to file them as soon as possible.

13             D20 is admitted into evidence.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I also requested the

16     military ID that I had confronted the witness with, to tender it into

17     evidence --

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you did so.  I

19     ruled on it already, after it had been given number D20.  If would you

20     please keep alert of what happens in the courtroom.

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  And I

22     apologise.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

Page 3456

 1        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, I would now like to move on to your employment,

 2     or, rather, engagement, at the 21st Corps, the Krajina Corps.

 3             First of all, please tell us when was the 21st Corps, better

 4     known as the Kordun Corps, established?

 5        A.   Shortly prior to withdrawal of the JNA troops.

 6        Q.   When you say that, could you tell us more specifically

 7     approximately the time?

 8        A.   March 1992.

 9        Q.   Up until March 1992, where were you employed, or, rather, where

10     were you assigned?

11        A.   I was interpreter to General Mrksic.

12        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, tell me, please, who was the commander of the

13     21st Corps from the time it was established, as you said, in March 1992?

14        A.   Colonel Bulat.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm now in possession of information

17     related to D19 marked for identification.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I earlier said that we'd now like to further

19     hear the evidence of this witness.  I said the Chamber invites you to

20     make submissions.  And I explained to Mr. Bakrac that we'd like to

21     receive written submissions.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24             Could we now please pull up in e-court Exhibit 2D38.

25        Q.   This is a brief certificate or receipt, Mr. Lazarevic.  Please

Page 3457

 1     take a look at this certificate.  We will see the English version in a

 2     moment.  Right now, we just have the B/C/S.

 3             Could you please tell us or explain to us what this is.  What do

 4     we see in front of us?

 5        A.   This piece of document was given to me by Colonel Bulat in

 6     Belgrade upon our return to Belgrade.  And it was just a certificate of

 7     the time which I spent within the 21st Corps.

 8        Q.   When did Mr. Cedomir Bulat give this to you in Belgrade?  What

 9     year?

10        A.   End of 1995, beginning of 1996.  Thereabouts.  I don't really

11     remember.  It was supposed to be a document as a proof which will be

12     entered --

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, is this document, this certificate, was it filed

14     anywhere?  Can you see the filing number or stamp?  Was it ever filed

15     anywhere, at any institution?

16        A.   I don't know.  Why?

17        Q.   Well, we'll come to that in a moment.

18             So we see here that you spent, as a member of the

19     21st Krajina Corps on the front line from the 21st of December, 1991,

20     through August 14th, 1995, and you just told us a moment ago that you

21     were with the Krajina Corps since March 1992.

22             So which is more correct?  What you told us today or what we can

23     see in the certificate?

24        A.   21st of December, Kordun Corps was not in existence.  I think it

25     got formed February or March 1992.  That's what I think.

Page 3458

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honours.  Unless I misunderstood, I

 3     believe that counsel has misquoted what the prior answer was in terms of

 4     March 1992.  The question was about when the 21st Corps was established,

 5     and, to that, the witness replied March 1992.  So I just want to know

 6     what he is referring to.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that change anything to the issue at stake?

 8     That is that when the witness says it was established that, of course, we

 9     could not expect him to be a member of a unit which has not yet been

10     established, would we?

11             So, therefore, it comes down to the same.  And what Mr. Bakrac is

12     doing is to put to the witness that he said that it was established in, I

13     think he said late March, just prior to the withdrawal of the JNA,

14     whereas we find here a document saying that he served on this unit, the

15     Krajina Corps, since 21st of December.  That's the issue.

16             And that doesn't -- I think your intervention -- again, I agree

17     with you, that literally you're right; but if there's any substance in

18     it, I would like to know what it is, because I couldn't find it.

19             MS. MARCUS:  I withdraw the objection, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   So, Mr. Lazarevic, could you please explain the discrepancy and

23     which is true; what you told us a moment ago or what we can read in this

24     document?

25        A.   If I read this document, it becomes very clear what happened

Page 3459

 1     here.  The date of 21st of December, 1991, is the day I arrived in

 2     Krajina, and it was the day I arrived.  This is not the date when the

 3     corps was formed.

 4             Now, Colonel Bulat, in his wisdom or whatever the reason was, he

 5     chose to use the date of my arrival on territory of RSK as a starting

 6     working for the 21st Corps, even though the 21st Corps, as such, did not

 7     exist at the time.  And this document was written after the war.

 8        Q.   Excellent, Mr. Lazarevic.

 9             My next question is this:  Is it correct that it says there

10     Commander Colonel Cedo Bulat, and then there's a stamp affixed,

11     reading -- the stamp, the 40th Personnel Centre Command?

12             Am I reading this correctly?

13        A.   Probably you are.  But I can't see it.

14        Q.   Well, trust me.  That's what it says there.

15        A.   So?

16        Q.   Well, yes, since you said, So, my question is this:  When was

17     Colonel Bulat the commander of the 44th [as interpreted] Personnel Centre

18     in Belgrade?

19        A.   I have no idea.  I didn't even look at the stamp to be perfectly

20     honest with you.  But I got it, I mean, I didn't look at.  Because

21     everybody was going to the building where the government in exile was,

22     including Colonel Bulat and everybody else.  And I've seen people get

23     those certificates to be entered into their world history, so I asked for

24     one, why not?

25        Q.   Just a moment, please.

Page 3460

 1             Please take a look at the last sentence now:

 2             "This certificate is issued at the request of the above-named and

 3     is to be used for the purpose of regulating the pensionable service

 4     record."

 5             Now you're telling that you received this document without so

 6     much as looking at it.  And I've just read what it says there, that you

 7     were the one who actually requested to be issued this document from

 8     Colonel Bulat.  And then you didn't even look at it?

 9        A.   [Interpretation] I have to explain this, Judge.  I did take a

10     look at the document.

11             [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... are you

12     suggesting I had that in my pocket, that I stamped it myself?  I don't

13     get your question.  It was given by Mr. Bulat; he was in that building

14     [Interpretation] Mosa Pijade 2, third floor.  When I requested this

15     document -- [In English] When I requested this document, he said, Don't

16     worry; I'll give it to you.  He gave it to me, and he stamped it.  I

17     might have, at the time, assumed that this is a new formation of the

18     government in exile, maybe they have a different name now.  What do I

19     know?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, the witness testified that he did not

21     look at the stamp.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  But he said that

23     he did see Colonel Bulat affixing that stamp on the document.

24        Q.   Correct?  Did I understand you correctly?  When you went to see

25     Colonel Bulat, he signed the document and affixed the stamp on it.  Did I

Page 3461

 1     understand that correctly?

 2        A.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 3        Q.   Excellent.  Sir, I put it to you that this document is a forgery.

 4     So now let me call up document 2D -- 2D37.

 5             This is a government conclusion, the conclusion of the

 6     Government of the Republic of Serbia.  And I will read to you what my

 7     request to the government was.

 8             My request was to be provided, for the purposes of this trial, by

 9     the Ministry of Defence --

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  This is a

11     conclusion whereby it says that I -- it is approved.  But 2D35 should

12     actually be a reply to my request.

13             Could we please pull up 2D35.

14        Q.   And while we wait for it to come up, let me just tell you that my

15     request was to obtain from the Yugoslav Army information about the

16     chiefs, commanders, of the 40th Personnel Centre of the Yugoslav Army,

17     all their names from the moment of its establishment up until the moment

18     when it was actually dismantled.

19             So you see this here is my request.  And now I would like us to

20     take a look at 2D36.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, before that document is displayed, I

23     would just remind Mr. Bakrac in the document it seems to suggest that

24     Serbia may be seeking protective measures for this document.  I'm not

25     what conversations he's had with Serbia, but I don't know whether private

Page 3462

 1     session might be required before we display and discuss this document.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that was not my

 4     understanding.  My understanding was that this document should not be

 5     used and may not be used for any other purposes other than for these

 6     proceedings.  But out of a abundance of caution, we can move on to

 7     private session.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But, it's your document, apparently.  So even

 9     if you say out of a abundance of caution, which then assumes a

10     possibility that you may be mistaken in what you earlier said, let's

11     follow, then, that.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, you will see in

13     the next document, where I submitted similar requests, they did not

14     provide the information because of the reasons mentioned earlier, the

15     protective measures.  So I think I can use this document in open session,

16     but only for the purposes of this trial.

17             So can we now see 2D36, please.

18        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, here we see the reply to my request, and it says

19     here that Lalic Ljubomir:  Father's name, Strahinja, a retired air-force

20     colonel, was appointed between the 1st of July, 1967, to

21     31st December, 1998, as the chief of the 40th Personnel Centre.  And I

22     asked, in other words, to be provided the names of all of the chiefs of

23     this personnel centre, and they provided that name.  And that was one

24     name, Ljubomir Lalic, the retired colonel.

25             So my claim here is that either you or Mr. Bulat actually

Page 3463

 1     falsified that certificate that you showed me -- showed -- that we showed

 2     earlier.  Is that true?

 3        A.   I think it's incorrect on both accounts.  I don't think

 4     Colonel Bulat falsified it, neither did I.  I think it is a genuine

 5     document issued by the fall of 1995, beginning of 1996; they decided they

 6     were going to make some changes [indiscernible] which they did.  I really

 7     don't know what it has got to do with me.  I mean, it should be beyond

 8     any reasonable doubt that I have been there for almost five years.  And

 9     all I did was ask for somebody to confirm that I was there so I can enter

10     it in my work history book.

11             So what is the problem there?

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we -- I would

13     like to tender both of these documents, as well as 2D38.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection?

15             MS. MARCUS:  As these documents were received pursuant to an RFA,

16     there is no objection, Your Honours.  But I will point out that 2D38 is

17     already admitted as Prosecution Exhibit 234.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, therefore, there is no need to have that

19     admitted into evidence, from what I understand.

20             Then what remains is 2D37.  Is that the one -- the first one.

21     No, 2D36, I think it is.

22             Let me just check.

23             Madam Registrar, the ...

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just try to understand.  D237 was what

Page 3464

 1     exactly?  That's not what is on our screen at this moment but that was

 2     the letter?

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  That's correct.

 4     That's the letter, 2D ... 2D37, Your Honours, is the reply or, rather,

 5     the conclusion of the Government of the Republic of Serbia approving my

 6     request or granting my request and providing the reply as to the identity

 7     of the chief of the 40th Personnel Centre; whereas, 2D36 is the reply

 8     from which we can see the reply to my request of 16 November, showing who

 9     the chief of the 40th Personnel Centre of the Yugoslav Army was.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And now in evidence already is 2D37?  2D38.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 2D38 was the OTP exhibit already.

12     It was a P number, so I withdraw it.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  2D36 and 2D37 are admitted into evidence.  Under

14     what numbers, Madam Registrar?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D21 and D22, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D21 and D22 are admitted, therefore.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Could we

19     now please see 65 ter document 535 on the monitors.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, I read in this document, at least in

21     translation, clearly, that it can be used only to prepare Defence in the

22     proceedings, and it will not be publicly disclosed or used in any other

23     way outside.

24             That's rather ambiguous language.  That's -- but I rely on you.

25             Please proceed.

Page 3465

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm very well aware of

 2     it.  This is the usual wording used by the bureaucracy.  When they say,

 3     For use in the preparation of the trial, that is the standard formulation

 4     they use.  I'm pretty certain of what I'm doing is correct.  But I didn't

 5     have time to send the document back and ask them to actually correct

 6     this, because, as you know, this witness was supposed to come and give

 7     evidence in December.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, do you recognise this document before you?

11        A.   I still have the little ID as a souvenir.

12        Q.   Who issued this ID to you?

13        A.   I believe --

14        Q.   Rather, this is an official ID?

15        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry.  Is this -- did

16     somebody ask me is this an official ID?  Yes it was.  It was given to me

17     at the station of police in Vojnic by Djuro Skaljac, I believe.

18        Q.   Sir, it says here official ID, and then it says the reserve

19     complement; am I correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you say that this was issued by Djuro Skaljac in Vojnic;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, sir, would you take a look, please, at the stamp.  It says

25     the Glina SUP, and allegedly it was signed by the minister.  I assume

Page 3466

 1     that this should have been signed by the minister of the interior of

 2     Republika Srpska; correct?

 3        A.   I don't really know.  All I know is that this was the time when

 4     demobilisation was implemented and all of us wake up in the morning being

 5     police officers.  I know I didn't print it, if this is what you are

 6     suggesting.

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I am now going to ask to see on the

 8     left side on the screen for comparison sake, no need for translation, to

 9     place on the left side of the screen 2D52.

10        Q.   This document was allegedly issued to you on the

11     4th of May, 1992.  Is this correct?  This first one, your official ID in

12     the reserve force.

13        A.   Yeah.  May 4th, 1992.  That is correct date.

14        Q.   Yes.  Now can we look at the place here where it says

15     Dusan Pokrajac, the 3rd of March, 1992 -- the 10th of March, 1992, and

16     the minister is signed here, Minister Martic.  Is that the same signature

17     as the one on your ID card?  You can also look at the first page where it

18     states --

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, can you please just place the

20     previous document on the left side of the screen, left screen.

21             Your Honours, perhaps it would help if I were to place the

22     document that I'm showing now on the ELMO and for the previous one to

23     stay in the e-court in the English and Serbian versions.  I would like to

24     ask the Usher, please, to place it on the ELMO.  I have a copy in colour

25     which would be much clear then.

Page 3467

 1             Can we look at this on the ELMO, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, to compare what is -- but we could try

 3     to look at it with ... on the ELMO, yes.

 4             What's your question?

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] My question, Your Honour, is if the

 6     witness sees a difference between these two IDs.  Does he see the

 7     difference between the stamp and signature of the minister -- between the

 8     stamp of the MUP of Knin, the difference in the signature of the

 9     minister.

10        Q.   And my question is what is this difference?  How come it's there?

11     And does he see this second document that is on the ELMO, the letters

12     typed with a special typewriter being used at the MUP.  It's a machine

13     containing dots and circles.

14             So I would like him to compare these two documents which were

15     issued approximately around the same time.

16        A.   The differences is obvious.  The document in the left looks like

17     a real police ID.

18             The one on mine -- on my side, where my name -- picture -- and

19     picture and the name is, looks like somebody just printing them out and

20     giving them out to people on the ground as some temporary solution, I

21     guess.

22             But do you know what is interesting?  I have this card right

23     outside here, next door office.  I can bring it out and you can have a

24     look at it again.

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this answer is

Page 3468

 1     sufficient.  It confirms all that I want.  So I would like to have these

 2     two documents tendered into evidence, please.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's fine that it confirms what you wanted to put to

 4     us, but if you would explain what you then, in your view, have put to us,

 5     that these are two different documents?  That these are IDs -- police IDs

 6     but that they are different?  Is that what we are supposed to learn from

 7     this?  Which is fine, but then we know, at least, what is confirmed by

 8     the witness.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I apologise.  I

10     wanted, precisely, actually, to put this question to the witness.  I'm

11     suggesting to this witness that the ID card which is here in front of us,

12     that he gave to us as his ID, is a fake ID.  It's a forgery.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Has he --

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I am asserting this.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Has he confirmed that this is a fake ID?  I haven't

16     heard that.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, he said the

18     difference was evident.  And it is evident that the document on the left

19     side is a authentic document, it's an authentic official ID; whereas my

20     document is something that is issued in the field.

21             So I wanted to put to him my suggestion to suggest to him that

22     the document of his is a forgery.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, you would say if someone testifies

24     that a document was issued in the field, you expect -- you expect the

25     Chamber then to understand that it's a forgery?

Page 3469

 1             That's -- if that's the case, then we will consider whether we

 2     can understand the testimony of the witness in this way.  But, therefore,

 3     I was seeking clarification of what you exactly understood the witness

 4     had confirmed.  That's clear now, to me at least.  Whether we would adopt

 5     that as a confirmation of what you've put to us, is for the Judges to

 6     decide.

 7             Please proceed.  You tender the two documents into evidence.

 8             Ms. Marcus.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, 65 ter 535 is already in evidence as

10     Prosecution Exhibit P237.  And in relation to 2D52, we have no idea where

11     the document came from.  We haven't been provided with any information as

12     to origin or anything.  So -- and certainly the witness can't

13     authenticate it.

14             So, on that basis, we would object to its admission.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at the same time, he said that it looked very

16     much as an official ID, isn't it?  It's ...

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document does

18     have an ERN number, meaning that it is a Prosecutor's document.  Oh, no,

19     I'm sorry; it's my mistake.  This document was obtained -- I'm sorry, I

20     apologise.  I was looking at another document.

21             This document was obtained from a person who will be a potential

22     witness in these proceedings.  I wanted to put it to the witness.  It can

23     be introduced later when this person comes to testify.  But since this

24     was not contested by Mr. Lazarevic, I don't see why we could not admit

25     this document into evidence already, now.

Page 3470

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber decided that it will admit this document

 3     into evidence.

 4             Now, in order not to make similar mistakes, we are talking about

 5     2D52, which will receive what number, Madam Registrar?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D23, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D23 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, you talked about how, within the 21st

11     Kordun Corps, there was a unit under the command of Mr. Ajdinovic.  This

12     was a special unit, numbering some 40 men.  Is this correct?

13        A.   That is correct.

14        Q.   You testified that they mostly did the dirty jobs.  This is

15     correct, right?

16             You also claimed that the commander of that unit, the immediate

17     commander in the field, was Sinisa Martic with the nickname Paraga.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now see in the

19     e-court Exhibit 65 ter 4131, please.

20        Q.   This is a document of the 26th of January, 1993.  Do you

21     recognise Commander Colonel Marko Vrcelj?

22        A.   No, I don't.

23        Q.   And the order is the following:  The Special Purpose Unit

24     commander of the Special 24th Infantry Brigade shall be Sinisa Martic

25     called Silt.

Page 3471

 1             Mr. Lazarevic, Ajdinovic did not command any unit in the

 2     21st Corps whose immediate officer would be Sinisa Martic, called Paraga.

 3     Is that correct?

 4        A.   First, the person in this document is not the person I'm talking

 5     about.  This guy has a nickname name Silt.  I'm talking about a gentleman

 6     with the nickname Paraga.  Now Paraga was commanding the anti-terrorist

 7     unit in area of 21st Corps.  Silt had a coffee bar right on a bridge

 8     entering Glina.  I know who that is too.  So we aren't talking about the

 9     same person.  Vrcelj, I have no idea who he is.

10        Q.   So, Mr. Lazarevic, there are two Sinisa Martic:  One is Silt and

11     one is Paraga?  I that what you're trying to tell us?

12        A.   Would that be very unusual?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not what he is trying to tell us, but that's

14     what he told us.  And you are invited to refrain from putting questions

15     to counsel rather than to answer them.

16             THE WITNESS:  I do apologise.  I am getting very tired.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   In previous proceedings, this question was already asked of you.

20     Did you know just one Sinisa Martic or did you know two?

21        A.   No, I only knew one.  I knew Paraga.  Sinisa Martic allocated in

22     a little house between Topusko and Vojnic.  I knew the other guy, but I'm

23     not absolutely certain that his name was Sinisa Martic too.  I knew him

24     as Silt.  And he had his little command right on the bridge entering

25     Glina.  They are entirely two different persons.

Page 3472

 1        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic --

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask to

 3     have this document tendered into evidence, because we're going do clarify

 4     this later.  The explanation by this witness was important to me.  I

 5     would just like that have this 65 ter document 4131 admitted.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 7             MS. MARCUS:  No objections, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D24, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D24 is admitted into evidence.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, I'm going to move to a different question now.

14             You were, if I understood you correctly, in the 21st Corps, and

15     you were a communications officer; is that correct?  This is the Kordun

16     Corps; is that correct?

17        A.   [Previous translation continues] ...

18        Q.   Did the Lika Corps also have its insignia or markings?  What was

19     the name of the Lika Corps?

20        A.   19th Corps.

21        Q.   What about the the Banja Corps; did that have a name as well?

22        A.   39th Corps.

23        Q.   Did the 39th Corps -- or, actually, did the Lika Corps have its

24     own communications officer, signals officer?

25        A.   You mean liaison officer?  I have never met him, if they did

Page 3473

 1     have.

 2        Q.   In order to be clearer, because there's been some confusion in

 3     the transcript.  The person who did the same job as you did in the

 4     21st Corps, was there such a person in the Lika Corps too?

 5        A.   I don't really know.  I assume there would have been, but I don't

 6     know.

 7        Q.   And the Banja Corps?  Was there a liaison officer or somebody who

 8     did the job similar to yours?

 9        A.   I remember an officer, but I don't remember the name.

10        Q.   You know that there was such a person in the Banja Corps, but you

11     don't know what their name was?  All right.

12             Sir, now, in your statement you talked a lot about some exchange

13     of bodies that you were in the commission for the exchange of those

14     killed.

15             Can you please tell me, you were meant to exchange the bodies of

16     Muslim or Croat fighters for the bodies of Serbian fighters.  Is that

17     correct?

18        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... Serbian for Muslim, yes.

19     There were no Croatians mentioned.

20        Q.   Very well.  And these 99 or, actually, 100 bodies were the bodies

21     of soldiers who were killed in the Bihac pocket and who belonged or were

22     members of the Banja Corps; is that correct?

23        A.   My understanding was those are the bodies collected along the

24     combat line not only from Bihac all the way to Sasine, I don't know.  Or

25     even from Velika Kladusa, I don't really know.

Page 3474

 1        Q.   Let me just find that, sir.  You did refer to that.

 2             Here it is.  Can we now, please, turn to your statement that you

 3     gave to the Prosecutor's office in January, between

 4     January and July 1999.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we please turn to page 20 in the

 6     B/C/S and page 22 in the English.  In the English, that would be the

 7     third paragraph.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Still not to be shown to the public.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   We're just waiting for the document to appear on the screen,

11     Mr. Lazarevic.

12             Yes, if you -- yes, we see it on the screen now.  We're looking

13     at the third paragraph in the English.  I will read it to you:

14             "Once when the Banja Corps of the ARSK penetrated into the Bihac

15     pocket, they lost 100 men.  I had to find 100 dead bodies to exchange

16     with the Muslims."

17             Let's stop there.  You stated firmly in 1999 that members of the

18     Banja Corps penetrated the Bihac pocket and lost 100 men.  What is

19     correct; what you are saying today or what you stated then?

20        A.   I stated then there were 100 bodies to be exchanged.  That's what

21     I said.

22        Q.   No, Your Honour [as interpreted], I'm reading back to you what

23     you said then.

24        A.   You are really -- I can't hear you because I'm getting

25     translation, and I follow you by reading on the screen.  And I don't get

Page 3475

 1     it anymore.  And then I see three's really tiny letters here.

 2             What am I looking at?

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] In the English version can we zoom

 4     in on the third paragraph, beginning:

 5             "Once when the Banja Corps" --

 6        Q.   And do you see it now?

 7        A.   Okay.

 8        Q.   Is it correct what you stated to the investigators of the

 9     Prosecutor's office, that the Banja Corps lost 100 men in the Bihac

10     pocket?

11        A.   I probably said it, but -- yes, I did say that.

12        Q.   Very well.  My question to you now is why did you participate in

13     the exchange of bodies from the Kordun Corps when there was a person in

14     the Banja Corps that had the same duties as you did?  Later, I'm going to

15     read some other inconsistencies about this body exchange.  But, first of

16     all, answer this question that I just put to you.

17        A.   The question is very simple to answer.  The gentleman you're

18     referring to in Banja Corps was not a member of the exchange commission.

19     I was liaison officer of the 21st Corps, but I was also in commission

20     with four members in exchange of fallen fighters, in combat duty,

21     commissioned for exchange of dead bodies.  It was a separate duty from

22     being a liaison officer, and that would cover all of the Sector North.

23        Q.   And you are telling us that nobody from the Banja Corps was

24     involved.  And I'm going to continue reading:

25              "... was not involved in the exchange of bodies of its own

Page 3476

 1     fighters."

 2             Is that what you're telling us?

 3        A.   I'm not telling you that.  I'm telling you that I was a member of

 4     commission that went and exchanged, but obviously there were officers

 5     from the 39th Corps attending that too.  I didn't remember all the

 6     members.

 7        Q.   My next question, Mr. Lazarevic, since you did not mention all

 8     the other members, you continue:

 9             "I had to find 100 dead bodies to exchange with the Muslims."

10             My question is:  This big commission, including participants from

11     the Banja Corps, why was it you who had to find these 100 bodies?

12        A.   This -- this might read wrongly.  When I said "I had to," I mean

13     I as member of commission.  But there were four of us in commission in

14     Kordun Corps working together.  I wasn't by myself there.  But that was

15     covering all of the Sector North --

16        Q.   Please, please, we don't have time.  Just one moment.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... to that,

18     Mr. Bakrac, let me just confirm with my colleagues.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I've consulted with my colleagues.

21        A.   We have considered the time -- your time estimate; we have

22     considered in which -- the way in which you cross-examined the witness;

23     and came to the conclusion that you have until 7.00.  And I'm seeking the

24     assistance of interpreters and all those assisting us for another ten

25     minutes of re-examination at the maximum.

Page 3477

 1             Is that something --

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, as of right now, we have no

 3     re-examination, just tendering one document into evidence, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Bakrac, you know how much time you've got

 5     left.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm not

 8     going to waste time.  But when we have witnesses like this, I was

 9     following it.  We have spent the same amount of time as the Prosecution.

10     I followed the -- I watched the statistics.  We didn't spend 180.

11             When we have witnesses like this, I understood, with all due

12     respect, that there would be exceptions.  I've looked at the figures, and

13     both the Defences had spent the same amount of time as the Prosecution.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Bakrac, you

15     missed one point in what I said, that the Chamber had looked at your time

16     estimate.  You get all the time you asked for.  Because you're now at a

17     little bit -- approximately one hour and 50 minutes; you asked for two

18     hours.

19             And you missed one issue.  And that is that the Chamber

20     considered the way in which you conducted your cross-examination.  That

21     is, if you say, I do not want to waste time, I think, as a matter of

22     fact, in quite a number of respects, did you waste a lot of time.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm going

25     to try to use these 15 minutes.

Page 3478

 1             Did I understand you correctly, that I have 15 more minutes?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't say that.  I said you had until 7.00.  I

 3     had asked the cooperation of interpreters and those who are assisting us

 4     to grant another ten minutes for the Prosecution.  But since they have no

 5     questions, could I ask those assisting us to give Mr. Bakrac until seven

 6     minutes past 7.00.

 7             I hear no objections, so let's quickly then proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, in your statement - and I'm going to tender it if

10     it has not been admitted yet.  I'm actually going to tender it and then

11     the Trial Chamber can see for themselves.

12             In your statement, you said since ten bodies were missing you

13     went to Toso Pajic and he told you to go to Djuro Skaljac.  Then he found

14     four bodies for you.  Then again you went to Pajic to tell him you were

15     missing another six, and he sent you to Arkan's Colonel Peja.

16             Yesterday you said something different, that you had gone to

17     Bozovic for the bodies and that Bozovic told you, If you need them, go

18     and kill them yourselves.

19             So what is true of these two?

20        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... both statements are correct.

21     They were given at different times.  I did see Rajovic [phoen] about it.

22     I did see Pejovic about it.  I didn't see Skaljac.  I didn't see

23     Mladjo Karan.  There were a bunch of people that went around to ask for

24     assistance.  So I might have elaborated in one instance more than in the

25     other, but we're still talking about the same -- same situation.

Page 3479

 1        Q.   Who drove the bodies?  Who dug the bodies out?  Who transported

 2     them?

 3        A.   For the number of ten that I was given task to provide, we dug

 4     out four and we took from Petar Sarac six and put them on a truck -- I'm

 5     sorry?

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Who did the driving?  You put them on the truck, and

 7     who was driving?  Were you driving that truck?

 8        A.   No, no.  I was in the car in front of the truck with -- I think

 9     it was --

10        Q.   Who were you with in the car behind the truck?

11        A.   I think it was a -- the guy's name is definitely Roncevic.  I

12     can't remember his rank anymore.  He might have been a lieutenant or a

13     captain, but he was Roncevic.  And the young Gvozdenovic was with me too.

14     There were three of us there.  Son of Djuro Gvozdenovic.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

17     this statement, this witness statement.  And I assume that it will be

18     adopted under seal.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, for a statement having been -- a

21     statement which reflects an interview, Rule 92 ter applies as you may be

22     aware of, which requires quite a lot of things that have not been

23     fulfilled.

24             I suggest to you that you agree with the Prosecution on this

25     specific portion which you want to focus on, that that is what the

Page 3480

 1     witness once told an investigator or investigators of the Prosecution

 2     with a date to that, and that you agree that that's the case so as to

 3     enable the Chamber to compare and to follow you in the inconsistencies

 4     you have pointed at.

 5             Ms. Marcus, would that be ...

 6             MS. MARCUS:  Absolutely acceptable, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would that serve your purpose?  Then we could

 8     stick -- we could stay within the Rules and at the same time achieve what

 9     you apparently want to achieve.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, in 1998, in Belgrade, were you the manager and

13     owner of a company called Orion MB?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   As the manager and owner of this company, Orion MB, did you sell

16     time-share apartments in Portugal?

17        A.   Yes, with my employees.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, we first move into private session.

19             MR. BAKRAC:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3481











11 Pages 3481-3485 redacted. Private session.















Page 3486

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Lazarevic, the question was what you meant when you said that

 9     you had fled the former Yugoslavia, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

10             And in the context of what was raised, I take it, Mr. Bakrac,

11     that you suggest to the witness that it had got something to do with any

12     suspicions of being involved in fraudulent activities.

13             Is that how you would like to -- the witness to understand your

14     question?

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes.  I would just

16     like the witness to take a look at page 32 of his statement, the

17     paragraph 1 before last where he says, In January 1999 -- [In

18     English] ... escaped from the FRY.

19             [Interpretation] Why did you escape from the FRY in 1999?

20        A.   I might have mentioned it before.  The reason for it -- the

21     reason was I was asked by Colonel Zimonja to go to Kosovo, which I didn't

22     want.  He wanted me to go to Kosovo to organise the translators down

23     there.  That was the basic reason for it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I add one question:  Had it got nothing to

25     do where any suspicions or any claims about fraudulent behaviour on your

Page 3487

 1     side?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Absolutely nothing, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, any further questions?

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

 5        Q.   Sir, just one last question:  In the Milosevic case, during the

 6     re-direct of my learned colleague Mr. Groome, you said that you left with

 7     a bag and that you had left your Porsche and Mercedes and everything else

 8     behind you in Belgrade?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Why didn't you sell your belongings?  Why did you have to leave

11     Yugoslavia in such haste?  Zimonja did not expect you to leave for Kosovo

12     the same moment.  I'm putting to you that you left all this behind

13     because you had earned it by -- you had obtained it by fraudulent

14     activities and that the police was actually after you.

15             So that's what I'm putting to you.

16             And I have no further questions?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let the witness perhaps first answer the

18     question.

19             THE WITNESS:  Well, the question is very simple to answer.  I

20     believe that I have been followed by the members of secret service.  I

21     didn't want to go to Kosovo; I made it very clear.  And the only reason I

22     could leave is just to leave suddenly.  But I did leave with my passport.

23     There was, as Mr. Bakrac suggested, an APB.  I was leaving Yugoslavia

24     fairly regularly on every two or three months with a passport and come

25     back and go out and come back.

Page 3488

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean after you had left you came back on

 2     [Overlapping speakers] ...

 3             THE WITNESS:  No, no, no, Your Honour.  You are misunderstanding.

 4     I mean, in that period which was mentioned, 1988 or 1989 -- 1999,

 5     whatever the period was mentioned, I was coming in and out, fairly

 6     regularly.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And 1999 is --

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So after you left, early 1999, that's when you said

10     had you left.

11             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you, after that, return --

13             THE WITNESS:  I believe I left in December 20th, 22nd, for

14     Hungary, 1998.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And after that [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers] ... after that I never came

17     back, no.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

21             Ms. Marcus, the situation remains unchanged, no re-examination?

22             MS. MARCUS:  Unchanged, Your Honour, thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then there is no need for further

24     questions.

25             The -- we would like to have the warrant of arrest and the

Page 3489

 1     indictment be MFI'd for the time being.

 2             Madam Registrar that would be?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D25 and D26, marked for identification.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D25 and D26 will keep that status until the Chamber

 5     has received further submissions.

 6             Yes, Mr. --

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me just

 8     one -- one minute longer for the transcript, Your Honours.  These were

 9     not -- I have not exhausted all the questions that I had for this

10     witness.  We had more questions, but we will try and resolve this in some

11     other ways, at least cover some other ground in some other ways.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that observation.

13             Mr. Lazarevic, this concludes your testimony.  I would like to

14     thank you very much for coming to The Hague, for having answered the

15     questions that were put to you by the Defence, the Prosecution, and the

16     Bench.  And I wish you a safe return home again.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the Usher.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I am fully aware of my own misbehaviour.  The reason

21     why I sought your cooperation and I'm now looking at those assisting us

22     is that the witness had stayed already for a considerable time in

23     The Hague and that if we would not have concluded today, he would have

24     had to stay until next week because we have a slow speed.  This is not a

25     justification, but it's just an explanation.  And I hope that you will

Page 3490

 1     accept my apologies for behaving as if I were master of your time, which

 2     I'm not.  And I thank you very much for your cooperation.

 3             Any other urgent procedural matter?  If not, we will adjourn, and

 4     we resume, Wednesday, the 17th of February, quarter past 2.00,

 5     Courtroom II.

 6                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.22 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of

 8                           February, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.