1 Tuesday, 18 May 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
8 Good afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom.
9 This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic
10 and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
13 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures?
15 MR. WEBER: That's correct. Good afternoon, Your Honours. At
16 this time the Prosecution calls Dejan Sliskovic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. While we are waiting for the witness to enter
18 the courtroom, I'd like to inform the parties that there was a request by
19 Dr. Eekhof to be allowed to produce his weekly report one day later than
20 usual. In view of the present circumstances, the Chamber allowed
21 Dr. Eekhof to file his report one day later.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Sliskovic. Can you hear me in a
24 language you understand?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could I invite you to make a solemn declaration of
2 which the text will be handed out to you by the usher.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Sliskovic, please be seated. You'll
6 first be examined by Mr. Weber. Mr. Weber is counsel for the
8 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
9 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.
10 WITNESS: DEJAN SLISKOVIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Mr. Weber:
13 Q. Could you please introduce yourself to the Trial Chamber.
14 A. My name is Dejan Sliskovic. I was born on the
15 20th December, 1973
16 my mother's name is Milana [phoen].
17 Q. Mr. Sliskovic, did you provide two ICTY statements dated
18 14 September 2003
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you have the opportunity to review these statements prior to
21 testifying here today in the Serbian language?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. With respect to your 2010 statement, did you notice and correct
24 mistakes in the draft translation of the B/C/S version?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In paragraph 4 of the draft translation, did you correct the word
2 "artillery cannon" to the plural "artillery cannons"?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did the remainder of the corrections consist of errors in the
5 translation of your original English statement into the B/C/S version?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Did you mark these mistakes by placing brackets around the
8 portion that was incorrect and writing the correct word?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. After correcting the B/C/S draft translation of your 2010
11 statement, did you initial and date every page after you reviewed it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In your 2010 statement, did you correct the nickname of an
14 individual who you previously described as "Riki" in paragraph 16 of your
15 2003 statement?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would you like to provide any further clarification on this
19 A. Yes. His nickname is Prega and his name is
20 Predrag Preza [phoen]. I used to call him Prika by mistake, and then one
21 of my instructors corrected me and he told me that his real nickname was
23 Q. With these clarifications, if you were asked the same questions
24 that you were asked during these previous statements, would you provide
25 the same answers?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 5289, which is the
3 14 September 2003
4 ICTY statement into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter. The Prosecution
5 uploaded the corrected B/C/S translation for 65 ter 5279 into e-court.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
7 Madam Registrar, the 2003 statement would be ...
8 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 5289 becomes Exhibit P440. And
9 65 ter 5279 becomes Exhibit P441, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P440 and P441 are admitted into evidence.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders eight original
13 documents that were provided by the witness in associated to the previous
14 statement now admitted as P441. Scanned copies and translations of the
15 original documents are uploaded into e-court. The Prosecution tenders to
16 the Court Usher the hard copy originals of the documents which it seeks
17 to be admitted at this time. These documents are
18 Prosecution 65 ter 5290.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
20 Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 5290 becomes Exhibit P442, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P442 is admitted into evidence.
23 Mr. Weber, please proceed.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. During a recent interview in March and April 2010, did you look
1 at 25 exhibits containing per diem records for members of the JATD
2 between June 1994 and July 1995?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were these exhibits shown to you before or after you provided
5 statements concerning the structure and names of members of the JATD?
6 A. After I provided my statement.
7 Q. Does your name appear as a member of the JATD in each of these
8 25 exhibits?
9 A. It does.
10 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the remaining 25 associated
11 exhibits to Exhibit P441. These exhibits are per diem payment records
12 for members of the JATD from the Serbian state security service between
13 the dates of June 1994 and July 1995. All of these records were received
14 from the Republic of Serbia
15 the Prosecution's first bar table motion filed on the
16 23rd of November 2009.
17 The 65 ter numbers for these associated exhibits are 4975 to
18 4996, and 4998 to 5000. The Prosecution provided a chart of these
19 exhibits to the Chamber and parties prior to today's proceedings with the
20 associated exhibits highlighted in green. These 25 exhibits were
21 authenticated by the witness on pages 18 to 26 of Exhibit P441. The
22 Defence withdraw their opposition to the admission of these exhibits
23 pursuant to Rule 92 ter as indicated by an agreement reached between the
24 parties on 29 April 2010
25 Trial Chamber at transcript page 4629.
1 Pursuant to paragraph 11 of the Chamber's second decision on the
2 Republic of Serbia
3 3 November 2009
4 requested the admission of the unredacted versions under seal. On the
5 chart provided to the Chamber, the applicable protective measures are
6 noted in the far right column. The Prosecution upload the the redacted
7 version of the exhibits in e-court under the 65 ter number followed
8 by .1.
9 In addition to these exhibits, the Prosecution tenders RFA 1639
10 dated the 11 of December 2007 and the response from the
11 Republic of Serbia
12 ERN 0675-4174 to 0675-4176. The Prosecution further requests the
13 admission under seal of Confidential Annex A to the Republic of Serbia
14 2 September 2009
15 under ERN 0675-4177 to 0675-4251. As indicated on page 43 of
16 Confidential Annex A to the prosecution's first bar table motion, the
17 Prosecution requested admission of the materials contained in this annex
18 because these documents verified the authenticity of these financial
19 records, and the materials in the annex are of independent evidentiary
20 value in that they confirm "names of members of the service, i.e., the
21 state security department," as listed in documents received pursuant to
22 RFA 1639. These records also confirm "information about the
23 organisational structure of the security service" and the "amounts paid
24 and period of engagement."
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's take them not one by one but first, the 25
1 records, 65 ter 4975 up to and including 5000 with the exception of 4997,
2 no objections. You would like to have them as 25 exhibits or as one
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if we could please have them as separate
5 exhibits. Based on the Chamber's protective measures decision, I believe
6 that there will need to be exhibit numbers for the unredacted version and
7 then also the redacted.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I think there's still a discussion
9 ongoing as to what extent admission into evidence of redacted versions of
10 certain documents, whether there are other ways of dealing with that.
11 But we leave that for the time being in the hands of Madam Registrar.
12 Madam Registrar, the numbers to be reserved for these 25 documents?
13 THE REGISTRAR: These would be Exhibit P444 through P468,
14 Your Honours.
15 MR. WEBER: And if I may make one point, which I believe counsel
16 is about to raise, there were recently completed translations of these
17 with containing all of the names of the individuals on this list.
18 There's no substantive changes; it's just the remaining individuals.
19 Counsel has indicated that he may have concern about these additional
20 names. The Prosecution has indicated to counsel that we discussed this
21 with him during the first break. So if it's acceptable to the parties,
22 if we could leave them marked for identification right now and then get
23 back to the Chamber immediately after the break.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, Mr. Knoops?
25 MR. KNOOPS: Mr. President, just a clarification, is Mr. Weber
1 referring to the 25 per diem lists or also the 40 from Friday?
2 MR. WEBER: We are -- the Prosecution is only addressing the 25
3 exhibits that are associated to the witness's statement.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To say so, the green ones.
5 MR. WEBER: Correct.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Mr. Knoops.
8 MR. KNOOPS: Well, then the objection remains, Your Honour, that
9 the translations were only provided on Friday which includes new names
10 which were not disclosed earlier to the Defence. Therefore, we object to
11 the admission of these lists.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And the copies you received earlier in the
13 originals, were the names there?
14 MR. KNOOPS: Just a clarification, the names were in Cyrillic,
15 the new translations.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. KNOOPS: In the originals, and they were -- the translations
18 were only provided on Friday from Cyrillic into English. And we have
19 28 exhibits which still were not disclosed before in non-Cyrillic nature.
20 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I may assist.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER: There are 25 exhibits. There were translations
23 provided for all 25. All 25 exhibits were also provided in the language
24 of the accused a long time ago. I can go through the individual
25 disclosure dates if you would like. The Defence has been on notice that
1 we intend to offer all of these exhibits into evidence. The witness
2 discussed these exhibits at length in their -- in his recent statement.
3 We believe it's proper to admit them at this time in full. The
4 translations that were provided recently, it took a long time to complete
5 them based on the resources available. They contained additional
6 translations of names that were in Cyrillic. Not -- they were not new
7 translations provided for all of the 25 exhibits, but just for some of
8 them. So Prosecution is willing to continue to discuss this during the
9 break with counsel, but it is the Prosecution's position that the
10 exhibits should be admitted at this time and were authenticated by the
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber is asking for the 25 exhibits to be marked
13 for identification. Any objection to that at this moment?
14 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, we object to the admission of the
15 documents as a whole, so therefore we also object marked for
16 identification. The problem is, Your Honour, that the names we are
17 speaking about were not part of the Rule 65 ter list, and Prosecution in
18 this way tries to indirectly put them on the Rule 65 ter list. And
19 that's exactly the problem. So they -- these names which were not
20 previously translated --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Is it all about Cyrillic Roman script? Is that the
22 whole issue?
23 MR. KNOOPS: Yes, for those 25.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Under the numbers assigned to the exhibits, they are
2 marked for identification. The parties are invited to further discuss
3 the translation during the first break, and the Chamber for the time
4 being accepts that the accused can read Cyrillic and could have assisted
5 counsel in identifying any persons appearing on that list.
6 MR. JORDASH: Sorry to leap up. May I just add a clarification,
7 because I've been dealing with this --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. JORDASH: -- more than Mr. Knoops. The issue really is this,
10 that the Prosecution indicated prior to Friday that certain names would
11 be relied upon. They indicated that by having those names translated.
12 Those names that were translated are part of a much bigger list of names.
13 The rest of the names were not translated; they were left in Cyrillic.
14 We then advanced on the basis that what we were dealing with while we had
15 to explain and investigate were the translated names.
16 On Friday, the Prosecution suddenly serve new translations from
17 the list of these Cyrillic names.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The issue is not Cyrillic or Roman script, but the
19 issue is notice of what the Prosecution would address in relation to this
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, we're taking up a lot of court time with
23 this. We're happy to discuss it further. The Prosecution does not agree
24 with that sentiment. We intended to use the full list as indicated in
25 the addendum that Christian Neilsen ... these lists were [indiscernible]
1 to show the establishment -- the existence of a unit, the size of the
2 unit, and how the size of the unit increased over time between 1993 and
3 1995. So it's been the Prosecution's intention to rely on the overall
4 numbers and names in these exhibits for a substantial period of time.
5 The translations that -- new versions of the translations were completed
6 only recently. So we are happen to further discuss this, but if we could
7 leave them marked for identification.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think the ruling was already that they would
9 be marked for identification, and I invited the parties to sit together
10 during the next break. That remains unchanged, although the issue at
11 stake has become more clear to the Chamber now.
12 Please proceed. No, not please proceed because we still have the
13 RFA and the response to be tendered.
14 As one exhibit, Mr. Weber?
15 MR. WEBER: Two exhibits.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Two exhibits.
17 MR. WEBER: As one a public exhibit, the others under seal.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Any objections against the request for assistance and the Serbian
21 MR. KNOOPS: No objection, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would receive number ...
23 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P469, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P469 is admitted into evidence under seal.
25 Mr. Weber, again, I do understand from Madam Registrar that this
1 week the discussions will be finalised on how to deal with the
2 confidential and the non-confidential versions of the exhibits.
3 P469, therefore, is admitted into evidence.
4 The last one -- no, two numbers, the second number, that's the
5 response --
6 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit P469 under seal and P470,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P470 is admitted into evidence as well.
9 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I could clarify, is P469 the RFA and
10 the response from Serbia
11 public exhibit. And then the annex, is that P470 --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I now come to the Confidential Annex A to the bar
13 table submission. Is that the one you are -- or is there an annex to
14 the ...
15 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution is seeking two exhibits numbers. The
16 RFA and the response from the Republic of Serbia
17 as one exhibit.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. WEBER: And have that be a public exhibit.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would then be, Madam Registrar, that
21 would be P469.
22 Mr. Weber, I asked about the RFA and the response because you had
23 three: 25, RFA and response, and then Confidential Annex A to the bar
24 table submission, I think you said. So we have now dealt with the
25 second, that is, two documents, one exhibit number, P469, RFA and
1 response of Serbia
2 And that now is -- Madam Registrar, could you confirm that these
3 two documents together are P469?
4 THE REGISTRAR: So these two documents together will receive
5 number P469.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then P470 would be Confidential Annex --
7 MR. WEBER: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- A. And that should be admitted under seal.
9 Madam Registrar, is this clear to you? I see you are nodding
10 yes. P470 is admitted under seal. P469 is admitted as a public
12 Let's proceed.
13 MR. WEBER:
14 Q. In paragraphs 6 through 12 of Exhibit P441, you describe your
15 recruitment into the JATD. In paragraphs 7 and 8, you indicate that you
16 had a meeting with Rade Dozet on the 24th or 25th of April, 1994. Could
17 you please describe the conversation you had with Rade Dozet on that day?
18 A. I met with Rade Dozet in the building of the Pancevo SUP on the
19 corner of Paje Marganovica and Milosa Trebinjca Street in his office.
20 Two weeks before that, Dragan Zujovic, who was one of the officials of
21 the state security, told me that if I wished to start working for the DB,
22 I should come for an interview with Rade Dozet. Rade Dozet told me about
23 the unit which should not be involved in the task for which I was
24 subsequently trained.
25 Q. What type of unit did he describe to you?
1 A. Nothing specific was said about the type of unit. What I was
2 told was that I would be trained in foreign languages and intelligence.
3 I was never told that that unit would be involved in anti-terrorist
4 activities and that it was under the MUP of Serbia.
5 Q. What is the reason that Rade Dozet recommended you to the unit?
6 A. At that time I was a junior champion of Vojvodina Serbia and
8 becoming a member of that unit. I was told that the state security
9 service was looking for athletes with good results and that that was one
10 of the reasons why I would become a member of that unit.
11 Q. What was the professional background of Slavko Stanisic?
12 A. Slavko Stanisic was a member of public security. He was a police
13 officer, and he was tasked with the training of Special Police Units and
14 special-purpose units, and he was the one who trained them in martial
16 Q. What occurred after your meeting with Rade Dozet in April of
18 A. After that meeting, approximately ten days later, I was invited
19 to come for a medical examination and some psychological testings. All
20 those took place in Kneza Milosa Street in the building of state
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sliskovic, could you please slow down your speed
24 of speech. The interpreters have difficulties in following you.
25 MR. WEBER:
1 Q. You stated in the building of state security. Do you know what
2 state security building is located on Kneza Milosa Street in Belgrade
3 A. That's the street of the state security of the republic, the
4 address is number 3 Kneza Milosa, and it's behind the building of the
5 federal SUP.
6 Q. When you went to the building on Kneza Milosa Street in Belgrade
7 what type of interview and tests did you undergo?
8 A. First there were general knowledge tests. The questions were
9 like, Who was Slobodan Penezic, What's the United Nations, and other
10 general questions. And then there were psychological tests that we had
11 to undergo.
12 Q. Could you please explain these psychological tests?
13 A. We would get various tasks to solve. In one of the tasks the
14 question was related to some sort of --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter didn't get the exact name, I think.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And similar questions to which we
17 had to provide answers.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Sir, could you please repeat the last part of your answer as to
20 what type of tasks that the questions asked you for during your
21 psychological tests.
22 A. Yes. There were tests such as Raschig's [phoen] blurs and other
23 tests that are usually conducted when screening candidates for such
25 Q. How was the interview conducted?
1 A. We were first interviewed by an elderly gentleman. I think that
2 he was a doctor. And he spoke to each one of us. And he asked every one
3 of us through who we had come here, who was our connection, and I said
4 that I had come through Stanisic. He first thought that he was
5 Jovica Stanisic, but then I told him that it was Slavko Stanisic and that
6 judo was the basis. And this man talked to each one of us separately.
7 Q. Was there anyone --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I listened to some of your last
9 questions, first about the building, which is in the statement.
10 MR. WEBER: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I wondered whether the Chamber would have
12 deprived from any relevant knowledge if he would not have known that the
13 psychological tests were the usual tests and with the -- and then finally
14 about the interview. I'm wondering, of course it may be that you come to
15 a point now where we really are enlightened in such a way, but until now
16 if I would not have known about psychological tests, just that
17 psychological tests were taken, I would not have thought that I would
18 have missed a lot.
19 MR. WEBER: Understood, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. WEBER:
22 Q. Who else was present when you went for these interviews and
24 A. In the room there was also Milenko. I think he was
25 Jovica Stanisic's adjutant. He sometimes would suggest to us which
1 answers we you should give to some questions.
2 Q. Were you the only person that was going through interviews and
3 tests that day?
4 A. No. On that day there were about 20 of us in that conference
6 Q. Did anyone besides Milenko meet with you from the state security
7 service when you went for the interview you?
8 A. Yes, I think it was Dragan Krsmanovic.
9 Q. Who is Dragan Krsmanovic?
10 A. At the time, I didn't know who he was. He was a high-ranking
11 official of the state security service in charge of logistics, and we
12 later met him off.
13 Q. What were you told after the completion of these tests and the
15 A. After the completed tests and interviews, we were taken to
16 Durmitorska Street for medical check-ups. After that, we were told that
17 we should come to the same place on the 30th of May and only bring
18 personal hygiene items.
19 Q. In paragraph 13 of Exhibit P441, you state that you reported to
20 the JATD on 30 May 1994
21 Could you please explain what occurred once you arrived that day?
22 A. We came to a waiting room by the entrance to that building.
23 Milenko waited for us there, and there was also Dragan Krsmanovic. And
24 one of our instructors, Dragan Lestaric, later on we found out that he
25 was the commander, and we got decisions about our employment, stating
1 that we were junior officials at the state security service.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, if this is the answer you expected, I
3 found it already in the statement, isn't it. 92 ter is there to -- not
4 to elicit repetitious evidence. Please proceed.
5 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 1 of
6 Exhibit P442.
7 Q. Do you recognise this document?
8 A. Yes, I recognise it. It's the official document that I received
9 then. It's called a "Ruling."
10 Q. Under the heading entitled "Ruling," the document states that you
11 are "... hereby employed in the Republic of Serbia Ministry of the
12 Interior, State Security Department, as of 1 June 1994, to the position
13 envisaged in item 37, number 7, of the Rules on Job Specification."
14 Did you ever see the rules on job specification of the state
15 security department?
16 A. No. Never.
17 Q. Do you know the position that item 37 relates to?
18 A. I don't know.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting, but
22 this may be the right moment. I cannot see something, and it also seems
23 to me that this document was mistranslated into English, namely that an
24 important part is missing. Namely, is employed for a definite
25 time-period of one year. I cannot see that -- this bit in the English
1 version, Your Honour. So that there is a significant and essential
2 difference between the original and the translation.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look at both versions.
4 Mr. Bakrac, could you indicate exactly where it says so and first
5 point at it.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it says "ruling" in
7 the heading. And then Dejan, son of Aleksandar Sliskovic from Belgrade
8 born on the 12th of December, 1973, in Zrenjanin. And then, in capitals:
9 "... is hereby employed," and that's in capitals in the English
10 as well.
11 And right after that:
12 "... for a limited time-period of one year at the Ministry of the
13 Interior of the Republic of Serbia
14 1 June 1994
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you're saying that the second part of the
16 line in capitals, just under the identification of the person to whom
17 this decision relates, is untranslated. I don't know whether it's true
18 or not, but could you, please, Mr. Weber, verify whether this is the
19 case. And if so, upload a new translation.
20 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour. I don't read Cyrillic, so I do not
21 know offhand. Would you like me to ask the witness if that's what it
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you could ask the witness to read it.
24 Could you, Mr. Sliskovic, read the line which is starting -- I
25 think it reads [B/C/S spoken]. That line. Could you read that entire
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
3 "Is employed for a limited period of one year at the Ministry of
4 the Interior of the Republic of Serbia
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Weber, could you please have the
6 translation being verified and if need be corrected.
7 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. WEBER:
10 Q. What kind of unit did you think you were joining when you
11 received this decision at the end of May 1994?
12 A. Then, I was still unaware of the nature of the unit, but I
13 thought that it would be a unit that would deal with anti-terrorist
14 activities in the Republic of Serbia
15 Q. How did you learn this?
16 A. When I was admitted, there were also other members who had had
17 contact with that unit earlier. Some of them had taken part in combat
18 operations. So I started -- so then it dawned on me that this unit --
19 the purpose of this unit was different altogether.
20 Q. After you received this decision, you indicate in your 2010
21 statement that you and the other JATD recruits were taken to the Lipovica
22 forest. Could you please describe the JATD facility at the Lipovica
24 A. Yes. It was a former military facility. It was a building along
25 the road to the village of Barajevo
1 floor and some sort of office. And on the upper floor there were the
2 bedrooms and the -- a restroom, as well as bathrooms, et cetera. There
3 was also a TV lounge.
4 Q. Who used the offices at the JATD facility in Lipovica?
5 A. As far as I understood, those were shared facilities, shared
6 offices, mostly used by Dragan Krsmanovic. But other officers from the
7 unit would also come. Major Filipovic, Zoran Rajic, and other officers
8 would also come whose names I didn't know and I cannot remember them now.
9 Q. Do you know if any personnel files on members of the JATD were
10 kept at the Lipovica facility?
11 A. Dragan Krsmanovic in the office that he used had a database with
12 files about the members of the units as well as the equipment issued to
14 Q. When you say "database" are you referring to a computer or are
15 you referring to hard copies of files in cabinets?
16 A. No, I mean hard copies. At that time, I didn't see electronic
17 documents much.
18 Q. In paragraph 22 of Exhibit P441, you state that you and the other
19 members of your training group got your red berets at the Lipovica forest
20 camp along with your uniforms. Could you please just explain the process
21 in which these uniforms and beret were provided to you.
22 A. Yes, we spent the first two days there without uniforms, that is,
23 in civilian clothes. Only then did we receive blue uniforms as were used
24 by the Special Police Units and red berets. There was a sword with four
25 letters S and the Serbian flag.
1 Q. Where did you go to pick up these uniforms and beret?
2 A. The facility next to the place where we were billeted, that is,
3 in the same camp, there was also a warehouse. Apart from these uniforms,
4 there were also NATO uniforms, camouflage uniforms.
5 Q. Did you sign any documents or receipts when you went to pick up
6 this equipment?
7 A. Yes, for each part of the uniform issued, we had to sign a slip
8 of paper confirming that we had received it.
9 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P350 in
11 Q. Mr. Sliskovic, do you recognise this document?
12 A. Yes. These are the receipts for equipment issued. But as far as
13 I remember, I signed a receipt not only for the beret and the badge but
14 for an entire blue uniform.
15 Q. The person mentioned in this receipt is someone you discuss in
16 both of your previous statements. Did you ever see Vaso Mijovic wearing
17 a red beret?
18 A. Yes, I did. I saw him when I was at Velika Kladusa. He wore a
19 red beret there.
20 MR. WEBER: At this time the Prosecution requests that the
21 Court Officer provide the witness with a item of physical evidence. It's
22 Artifact A001-3825. The Prosecution has it.
23 Q. Sir, I see you've removed the contents of the folder that was
24 just provided to you. Do you recognise this exhibit?
25 A. Yes. This is my beret with the badge of the unit.
1 Q. How do you recognise this as your red beret?
2 A. The lining of the beret was black. When I -- while I was
3 removing it, I damaged the beret and the stitches -- or rather, the --
4 no, the screws on the badge were not the original screws. I put other
5 screws on the badge.
6 Q. Is this red beret the same or substantially similar condition as
7 when you last saw it in 2003?
8 A. It's in the same condition.
9 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders the red beret
10 into evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I hear of no objections, therefore
12 the number to be assigned would be ...
13 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit -- red beret would be
14 Exhibit P443, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P443 is admitted into evidence. Could I have a look
16 at the badge on it.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. During your training in Lipovica, did you learn how the JATD was
20 commonly known?
21 A. I apologise, could you please repeat your question? I didn't
22 hear it well due to an interruption while I was listening.
23 Q. During your training in Lipovica ...
24 During your training in Lipovica, did you learn how the JATD was
25 commonly known?
1 A. Yes. The older unit members who had already had contact called
2 the unit the Red Berets.
3 Q. Between June and September 1994, did you train with the same
4 recruits of the Red Berets?
5 A. We were divided into two groups. Dragan Krsmanovic divided us
6 into one infantry group and one artillery group. And the infantry group
7 stayed together and was trained together all the time.
8 Q. What group were you a member of?
9 A. The infantry group.
10 Q. In paragraph 20 of Exhibit P441 you state that you received
11 training from former members of the
12 "Specijalna Antiteroristicka Jedinica" of the Serbian MUP or SAJ
13 spelled S-A-J. In this paragraph you also state that Radovan Stojicic,
14 also known as Badza, was the commander of SAJ. Was Badza a member of
15 public security or state security of the MUP?
16 A. Radovan Stojicic Badza, as far as I know, was in public security.
17 Q. Was there any coordination between Badza and these former members
18 of SAJ in the state security service of Serbia?
19 A. Based on what I heard and on what I know, both units acted
20 jointly in some operations.
21 Q. Do you know when these units acted jointly?
22 A. This is what I heard from Desimir Butkovic who was a unit member.
23 He mentioned them being together and --
24 THE INTERPRETER: The witness mentioned a proper name which we
25 didn't understand. Could he please repeat.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. Sir, if you could please repeat the names that you just mentioned
3 in your last answer.
4 A. One name was Desimir Butkovic.
5 Q. Was there a second name that you referred to?
6 A. I think I mentioned his nickname which is Deso.
7 Q. When did you learn that these units acted jointly?
8 A. I heard that while I was at the training centre in the camp in
9 Lipovica forest.
10 Q. And do you know when it was that these units performed joint
12 A. I wouldn't be able to give you the exact time.
13 Q. What were the names of your former instructors from SAJ?
14 A. Dragan Lestaric; Drasko Suvara; Sasa Jovanovic; Slobodan Stakic;
15 Dragan Jovanovic, also known as Bata; and I can't remember any others.
16 Janko Keres I remember.
17 Q. How many other members of the Red Berets were in your infantry
18 group between June and September 1994?
19 A. I believe that there were 20 of us altogether.
20 Q. Were you accommodated together this entire time?
21 A. Yes, we were at the Lipovica forest camp all the time.
22 Q. Did you have occasion to learn how the other members of your
23 infantry group were recruited into the Red Berets?
24 A. Yes. There were a lot of members in that part of the unit who
25 had had contact with the Red Berets, and they joined the unit upon
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could all the microphones not in use please be
3 switched off. There is a lot of background noise in the courtroom.
4 MR. WEBER:
5 Q. In paragraph 23 of Exhibit P441, you state that during your
6 training in Lipovica:
7 "I learned that the JATD had its regular composition consisting
8 of these young candidates from the tests and interviews who received
9 formal decisions from Stanisic, but there was another part of the unit
10 which was completely a different story."
11 Could you please explain what you mean by this statement?
12 A. When I arrived at the Lipovica training centre, I knew that we
13 were divided into two groups, infantry and artillery. However, I learned
14 from the others that there were several training camps and that the unit
15 also had a lot of people on its reserve force.
16 Q. What were these reserve forces?
17 A. Those were members of the unit who had participated in former
18 operations and who were called if needed.
19 Q. Who were the members of the Red Berets that were with
20 Captain Dragan in 1991?
21 A. According to what I know those men arrived in Lipovica.
22 Dragan Pupovac; Zvezdan Jovanovic; Vaso Mijovic; Bozovic, Rajo.
23 Q. How did you learn that these individuals were part of a
24 paramilitary unit since 1991?
25 A. The other --
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the
2 witness said "reserve forces." He mentioned the reserve forces. And now
3 my learned friend is referring to the reserve forces as a "paramilitary
5 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, that's not the case. I believe this is
6 clear in the witness's statement. I asked him to define the reserve
7 forces, then I moved on to a different portion in which he describes that
8 there were people that were part of a paramilitary unit since 1991.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, paragraph 23 of the statement refers to
10 reserve/paramilitary formations, so therefore there is a basis in the
11 evidence, therefore --
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I understand
13 that, but it is not clear in the statement what the witness meant. And
14 now the witness said it himself that there were reserve forces. I
15 believe that it would be leading if you immediately switched from that to
16 a paramilitary group.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If the statements say reserve/paramilitary that
18 means that it's put on an equal footing. If you think it's unclear, then
19 you can seek further clarification in cross-examination. There was no
20 reason at this moment to intervene.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. WEBER:
23 Q. How did you learn that these individuals were part of a
24 paramilitary unit since 1991?
25 A. Dragoje Zvizdic, Miroslav Mirkovic, Desimir Butkovic, and other
1 members of the unit told me a lot about that unit, and they told me that
2 they were great fighters who had met in Captain Dragan's camp already in
3 1991. I met some of them personally in the Lipovica camp, for example,
4 Dragan Pupovac. I had opportunities to sit down with him and talk to
6 Q. In paragraph 23 of Exhibit P441, you state that:
7 "These individuals were officers in Captain Dragan's camp and
8 commanders of the reserve/paramilitary formations of the JATD. All of
9 them had earned Simatovic's trust since 1991."
10 How do you know that these commanders earned the trust of Franko
11 Simatovic in 1991?
12 A. My colleagues who were with me described them as good fighters,
13 brave people, people of Franko Simatovic's confidence. People whom
14 Franko Simatovic trusted. That's what I heard from them.
15 Q. Who were these colleagues?
16 A. I heard most from Dragoje Zvizdic; but Miroslav Mirkovic, Desimir
17 Butkovic, Dragutin Stanovic, and others also talked about those men.
18 Q. Were the names that just mentioned all members of your infantry
20 A. Yes, they were with me in the same group. We received our
21 decisions together.
22 Q. In paragraph 6 of Exhibit P440, you state that:
23 "Sometime mid-September 1994 we started to load up our vehicles
24 with all the necessary items for a large unit going to battle."
25 Could you please explain these preparations?
1 A. I arrived home. I was allowed to go home for the weekend
2 together with my instructors. I lived nearby in Pancevo. I arrived
3 there and lorries were by the depot and they were being loaded with
4 mines, explosives, ammunition, and weapons for a unit who was supposed to
5 spend a longer time in the field. We didn't know any details of that
6 exercise. We were there, and we helped load the lorries.
7 Q. Who oversaw these preparations?
8 A. Dragan Krsmanovic was in the Lipovica camp most of the time.
9 Q. In paragraph 27 of Exhibit P441, you state that:
10 "We left for Petrova Gora from Lipovica training centre. There
11 were 24 of us on a bus when we left the Lipovica forest."
12 Who were the 23 other people with you on this bus?
13 A. Members of the unit who were with me in the camp at the moment.
14 The infantry part of that unit. Drasko Suvara, one of the instructor,
15 was also on the same bus with us. The number is an approximation. I
16 don't know exactly how many we were. I believe that we were about 24.
17 Q. Approximately how many vehicles were in the convoy when you first
18 departed Lipovica?
19 A. The convoy was very long. You could not see its end. However,
20 people in the know told me that the convoy ended around Barajevo. That's
21 how long it was.
22 Q. What I'm asking you, sir, is how long was the convoy when you
23 first left Lipovica, not when you arrived.
24 A. I don't know. I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly. I can
25 only tell you that the convoy was really long. Exceptionally long. When
1 you are looking at a convoy in movement, the vehicles have to keep a
2 certain distance, so the convoy obviously appears longer than it actually
3 is. It could appear even as if it had been 5 kilometres long.
4 Q. Did your bus-stop and pick up anyone after it left the Lipovica
6 A. Yes, we did. Zika Crnogorac, a Montenegrin, entered our bus.
7 Q. Who is Zika Crnogorac?
8 A. Zika Crnogorac, I saw him for the first time at that point, and
9 my colleagues told me that he was was in the Red Berets from 1991. He
10 was a group leader. Some of his men entered our bus together with him.
11 Q. What occurred when Zika Crnogorac was picked up by the bus you
12 were on?
13 A. Zika Crnogorac entered and asked us if we knew where we were
14 headed, we said no. And then he said, Well, I can't disclose that in
15 that case, but I can tell you that you are coming home in black
17 Q. After your bus stopped, did your convoy proceed?
18 A. The convoy proceeded in the direction of Raca.
19 Q. Did any other buses or vehicles join the convoy as it proceeded
20 to Raca?
21 A. Yes. We were joined by vehicles all the time. There was a bus
22 behind us with the Serbian Volunteer Guards, and we were also joined by
23 some artillery vehicles.
24 Q. Do you know where these artillery vehicles were from?
25 A. They belonged to a unit which had had been billeted at the Tara
2 Q. What type of unit? Who did this unit belong to?
3 A. Those combat vehicles belonged to the anti-terrorist unit of the
4 Serbian MUP.
5 Q. Did the convoy experience any problems as it proceeded to Raca?
6 A. Yes. We were halted when one vehicle overturned. It was the
7 communications vehicle, and that's where we had to stop. We were halted
8 for a while.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I'm looking at the clock. It's time for
10 a break. Approximately would this be a suitable moment or could you find
11 a suitable moment within the next two or three minutes.
12 MR. WEBER: We can break now if you want.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break, and we'll resume at 4.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
17 MR. WEBER:
18 Q. When one of the communication vehicles experienced this problem,
19 did you exit your bus and have an opportunity to see the other soldiers
20 who had joined the convoy?
21 A. Yes. Members of the Serbian Volunteers Guard got off a bus.
22 Q. How did you know that these individuals were members of the
23 Serbian Volunteer Guard?
24 A. They sported insignia typical of their unit. A tiger and an
25 abbreviation, SDG, a three headed eagle, and a sword with two blades.
1 Q. Were the uniforms worn by these members of the
2 Serbian Volunteer Guard similar to yours or different?
3 A. They wore overalls with NATO colours. Those were not NATO
4 uniforms. They were very similar but not exactly the same.
5 Q. Did you have occasion to have a conversation with Drasko Suvara
6 during this break?
7 A. Yes. Drasko Suvara was standing next to me, and he was also
8 talking to Zika Crnogorac. And, yes, we all had a conversation.
9 Q. What did Drasko Suvara tell you during this conversation?
10 A. He said that Franko Simatovic was in the vehicle leading the
12 Q. After the communications vehicle was repaired, how did the convoy
13 cross into Bosnia
14 A. The convoy crossed into Bosnia
15 Q. Were there any soldiers or other armed individuals at the border
16 crossing when you were let through?
17 A. Yes. Russian UNPROFOR soldiers were on duty at the border
18 crossing at the time.
19 Q. Was the convoy stopped when it crossed at Raca?
20 A. No, the convoy was not stopped. We proceeded.
21 Q. When the convoy arrived in Petrova Gora, how much bigger was the
22 total size of the convoy from when you had initially departed Lipovica?
23 A. It was three or four times longer than when it first left
25 Q. In paragraph 7 of Exhibit P440, you state that it was in
1 Petrova Gora that you first met with Rajo Bozovic.
2 Could you please explain this first meeting?
3 A. Yes. When we arrived, we were billeted in some prefabricated
4 houses across from the monument in Petrova Gora. We entered our
5 dormitories, and an officer came whose name I didn't know and he wanted
6 to accommodate his men from Montenegro
7 objected to that. And one of the members of the unit,
8 Milan Milosavljevic, told me, Shut up, that is Rajko Bozovic.
9 Q. How long after your arriving in Petrova Gora did this occur?
10 A. We travelled over 24 hours to Petrova Gora and that event
11 involving Rajo Bozovic took place some 15 or 20 minutes after we were
12 accommodated in the dormitories.
13 Q. After Bozovic left the dormitory, were you and the other members
14 of your infantry group transported anywhere?
15 A. Yes. I was the first one to keep guard in front of the
16 prefabricated building for two hours. They arrived in Payero jeeps, they
17 wore camouflage uniforms, and they transported us to Magarcevac, which
18 was the former forward command post of the 5th Communications Centre.
19 Q. In your previous answer when you say "they" who are you referring
21 A. One Mitsubishi Payero was driven by Miroslav Kurak. And those of
22 us who were billeted in the prefabricated buildings were transported.
23 There were some ten of us belonging to the reserve forces of that unit.
24 Q. When you arrived at the command post, who was present?
25 A. That's within I saw Jovica Stanisic for the first time.
1 Q. Approximately how many hours after you arrived in Petrova Gora
2 did you see Jovica Stanisic?
3 A. Not more than four hours.
4 Q. Was anyone with Jovica Stanisic when you arrived at the command
6 A. They were in their offices. Jovanovic, Dragan Lestaric,
7 Franko Simatovic, the secretary Sladana, they were all there in their
8 offices where they also slept.
9 Q. Did you receive an assignment at that time?
10 A. First we were told where we would be sleeping, and after a while
11 we were deployed at our century posts. We were tasked with guarding the
12 facility both inside and outside.
13 Q. Were you subsequently assigned to guard the facilities where
14 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic were located?
15 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, we slept in the same facility in that
16 communications centre. We guarded the entrance into the offices, and we
17 guarded the entrance into the building itself.
18 Q. Besides yourself, who received this assignment?
19 A. Milos Djukic, Nebojsa Stankovic, not more than three of us, but
20 Dragan Lestaric and Zvezdan Jovanovic were Simatovic's most immediate
21 closest guards.
22 Q. Could you please describe your responsibilities when you stood
23 guard for Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic?
24 A. We were under strict orders not to let any armed persons in to
25 Simatovic's and Stanisic's offices. We stood guard in front of the
1 building as well as in front of the office where Stanisic worked. In
2 other words, nobody who was not announced could enter either the building
3 or Stanisic's office.
4 Q. For how many months were you assigned to secure the office of
5 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic?
6 A. I can speak for myself and I can say that I was there in that
7 place until the beginning of the month of February.
8 Q. Would this mean that it was from sometime in the end of September
9 1994 to February 1995?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How often were you on guard when Jovica Stanisic and
12 Franko Simatovic used the office?
13 A. We had our schedules. Sometimes shifts lasted two hours, three
14 hours, and four hours. And there were also days when the others were
15 somewhere else on other assignments. On those days, Milos Djukic and I
16 were the only ones who stood guard.
17 Q. Approximately how often did you see Jovica Stanisic and
18 Franko Simatovic at these offices between September 1994 and
19 February 1995?
20 A. Jovica Stanisic spent about 70 per cent of his time there in
21 those offices. Sometimes he was also absent, probably he travelled. But
22 I would say that they were there most of the time.
23 Q. What about Franko Simatovic?
24 A. Mr. Simatovic was also there all the time, as far as I can
25 recall. He was also absent from time to time, probably on business.
1 Q. Could you please describe the office of Jovica Stanisic in
2 Petrova Gora?
3 A. The size of the office was about 20 to 25 square metres. There
4 was a conference desk, some other pieces of furniture, and there was a
5 topographic map hanging on the wall.
6 Q. In paragraph 38 of Exhibit P441, you state that "in Petrova Gora
7 you became more familiar with the organisation of the JATD," known as the
8 Red Berets.
9 How did you become more familiar with the organisation of the Red
10 Berets in Petrova Gora?
11 A. I realised that the unit had more men than I could assume, that
12 there were other parts of the unit who joined us, who joined the unit as
13 its integral parts. I was particularly surprised with the size of the
14 reserve forces led by Gaja Bozovic.
15 Q. The record has you saying, I might have misheard it as
16 "Gaja" Bozovic. Could you please repeat the name of Bozovic.
17 A. Rajo, R-a-j-o Bozovic.
18 Q. Who was in overall command of the JATD and what was his position?
19 A. Jovica Stanisic was in charge of the entire operation. He was
20 the Commander-in-Chief.
21 Q. Who was immediately subordinate to Jovica Stanisic and what was
22 his position?
23 A. The JATD commander was Franko Simatovic.
24 Q. Who were the deputy commanders of the unit who were under the
25 immediate command of Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic?
1 A. The deputy commander was Milan Radonjic. And there was also
2 Dragan Krsmanovic, Zoran Rajic, and Major Filipovic.
3 Q. What responsibility did Dragan Krsmanovic have in the unit?
4 A. Dragan Krsmanovic was the logistics man. As far as I understood,
5 all the necessary supplies such as weapons were procured through him.
6 That was his job. Not only for our units, but also for the others.
7 Q. When you say the "others," what other units?
8 A. I mean all the units that were under the command of
9 Jovica Stanisic at the time, that is, the Serb Volunteers Guard and the
10 army of -- or rather, the soldiers of Fikret Abdic.
11 Q. What type of weapons were procured for your unit, these other
12 units, and the army of Fikret Abdic?
13 A. We had standard weapons. An automatic rifle 7.62 millimetre
14 calibre, and we had also special weapons for anti-terrorist operations.
15 The usual Hecklers MP5SD with the silencers. We also had Dragunov sniper
16 rifles, Black Arrow sniper rifles. Then Israeli-made machine-guns,
17 Israeli distance metres of the Ralph make, and other special weapons and
18 tactics gear.
19 Q. Were these the same type of weapons secured for the
20 Serbian Volunteer Guard?
21 A. I did see the members of the Serb Volunteers Guard. They had the
22 usual infantry weapons. As for special armaments, I'm not sure that they
23 had the same sort of weapons that we had.
24 Q. What type of weapons were procured for the army of the
25 Fikret Abdic?
1 A. Mostly automatic rifles, 7.62 millimetre calibre.
2 Q. You also mentioned Zoran Rajic; who was he?
3 A. He had the opportunity to see Zoran Rajic often in the camp at
4 Lipovica forest. At the beginning I used to ask, Who is that? And they
5 told me, This is Rajic, he is the leader of the volunteers group, part of
6 the unit that calls itself the Skorpions.
7 I was told that he was in charge of that unit.
8 Q. What were the responsibilities of Fica Filipovic?
9 A. Filipovic was a high-ranking officer in our unit. He trained us
10 in Kyokushinkai and self-defence while we were still at the facility at
11 Surcin Airport
12 Q. Did the deputy commanders have command over both the regular and
13 reserve formations of the Red Berets?
14 A. I apologise, the interpreter used a word that I don't understand.
15 Could you please repeat.
16 Q. Of course. Did the deputy commanders that you've just described
17 have command over both the regular formation and the
18 reserve/paramilitary formations of the Red Berets?
19 A. Yes. He had command over all of them.
20 Q. When you say "he," who are you referring to?
21 A. Jovica Stanisic had responsibility for the entire operation.
22 Q. And with respect to Zoran Rajic, Fica Filipovic, and
23 Dragan Krsmanovic, did they also have command over both the regular and
24 reserve formations of the Red Berets?
25 A. As far as I understood, when Jovica Stanisic or Franko Simatovic
1 were absent, they had had certain tasks they had to perform based on an
3 Q. Who would this authorisation come from?
4 A. The authorisation to carry out any activity had to come from the
5 chief, Jovica Stanisic.
6 Q. Could you please describe the regular formation of the JATD?
7 A. A regular unit consisted of infantry, artillery, and the part of
8 unit that I knew at the time, that is, 40 people in all. Then we had
9 also helicopter unit, we had Gazelle and Bell Ranger helicopters. We
10 also had a mobile hospital which was on a bus.
11 Q. Who were the commanders of the regular units of the Red Berets?
12 A. The unit commander, the infantry section of which I was a part
13 was Dragan Lestaric. And the others, we had -- we also had some other
15 Q. What were their names? Or if I may rephrase, were these the same
16 instructors that you have named earlier?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who were the commanders of the reserve units of the JATD?
19 A. Rajo Bozovic, Zika Crnogorac, Dragan Pupovac, I'm not sure of
20 their exact roles and positions and which part of the reserve force they
21 commanded. But Rajo Bozovic had authority over the entire reserve force
23 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 20 exhibits from
24 the personnel records of the state security service of Serbia for
25 individuals mentioned by the witness from the bar table. There's a
1 pending 54 bis application from the Republic of Serbia
2 these documents, and the Prosecution requests that these exhibits remain
3 under seal for the time being. The Stanisic and Simatovic Defence have
4 indicated to the Prosecution that there are no objections to the
5 admission of these exhibits at this time. If the Chamber would like, the
6 Prosecution could go through them one by one for a clear record.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would prefer if you would list them.
8 Are they contained on the list the Chamber received, the table of
10 MR. WEBER: No, Your Honour, they are not.
11 JUDGE ORIE: They are not. Then would you please prepare a list
12 in which you set them all out and give a brief description of including
13 date and what it exactly is. And you said how many were there?
14 MR. WEBER: There's 20. We are going to be seeking 12 exhibit
16 JUDGE ORIE: 12 exhibit numbers. So we already will ask
17 Madam Registrar to reserve 12 Exhibit numbers that would start at P471.
18 I know that there's one number which is not yet used, that's P443, but
19 for a series of 20 that seems not to be a good start to begin.
20 THE REGISTRAR: It's already used for the red beret, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Oh yes, we have used that now for the red beret.
22 So, therefore, that would be, Madam Registrar, P471 ...
23 THE REGISTRAR: P471 through P482.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Weber, if you --
25 Yes, Mr. Knoops.
1 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, with respect to personnel file 3 of
2 Mr. Bozovic already written submission pending before the Court.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Which would then -- a written submission. Of
4 course, I'm a bit lost; number 3, I have no list.
5 MR. WEBER: There's a chart that's prepared. It's just a matter
6 of printing it out. I believe counsel is referring to 65 ter 4332. This
7 is not actually a document that there's -- it's referenced in a written
8 submission, I believe, on Exhibit P179, marked for identification. If
9 counsel could correct me if that's the incorrect understanding. But I
10 believe the submissions actually as P179. And the Prosecution argue that
11 this document corroborates the authenticity of Exhibit P179.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And apparently that has been marked for
13 identification. I suggest that you print out that chart. Is it correct
14 in itself that there are no objections against admission of the
15 20 documents which would appear under 12 exhibit numbers?
16 I hear of --
17 MR. KNOOPS: Except for number 3.
18 JUDGE ORIE: What you said, Mr. Knoops, is there was a -- there
19 was a submission pending. Mr. Weber contradicts that and says that there
20 was a reference -- let me just see. The third one of your list, would
21 that be covered by the third exhibit number to be assigned, Mr. Weber?
22 MR. WEBER: It would. If there's an objection, if counsel could
23 state --
24 JUDGE ORIE: One -- yes, one second, please. So that would be --
25 on your list would be 473. Would that be -- because then we would deal
1 with P179 and what will be P473 together, because apparently there is
2 some authenticity issue with P179. We've received the submissions by the
3 Defence filed the 1st of April of this year.
4 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution was under the understanding that this
5 would not be objected to. But since it is being objected to on the same
6 basis, if the Prosecution could have leave to lead some evidence right
7 now on it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, on your list -- before we -- I'd like to see
9 your chart before deciding on admission. Numbers P471 up to P482 have
10 been reserved for items on this chart, and I do understand that only for
11 P473 there would be a objection related to P179.
12 Yes. Please proceed. If you want to elicit evidence relevant
13 for the authenticity, please present it.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. Did members of the Red Berets use short signatures?
16 A. Yes, they had nicknames that they used.
17 Q. Could you please describe what short signatures were used for by
18 members of the Red Berets?
19 A. They mostly used the names of different animals such as bobcat,
20 wolf, buzzard.
21 Q. Sir, I'm not asking about code-names, but I was wondering
22 actually when members of the Red Berets signed documents, did they use
23 their full signature always or did they use shorter signatures?
24 A. Sometimes they would sign a document with their full name, and
25 sometimes they would use short signatures.
1 Q. And what would be the reason that the short signatures were used?
2 A. I remember that on Petrova Gora once I received a per diem and
3 Milenko was up there too and they said, Sign with a short signature.
4 That's what they demanded probably to make it impossible to establish
5 later who signed which document.
6 Q. Did you have occasion to see the short signature of
7 Jovica Stanisic?
8 A. Yes, I did. I was in the office where Sladana was in the state
9 security building. Jovica left the office, came up to a desk, and signed
10 something fast. He used a fountain pen to sign that document.
11 Q. Approximately on how many occasions have you seen the shorter
12 signature of Jovica Stanisic?
13 A. I saw the full signature, well, at least 40 times.
14 Q. How about Jovica Stanisic's shorter signature?
15 A. Three to four times.
16 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 4332, which
17 I believe is marked for identification now as Exhibit P473.
18 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move the original a bit further up so that
20 we could see the signature.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This particular document is about
22 the vetting of some members of the unit. Those are who are mentioned
23 here. That was usual practice.
24 MR. WEBER: Could we please have in the B/C/S version the heading
25 at the top of the document.
1 Q. Do you recognise this heading as an authentic heading?
2 A. Yes. The heading was actually stamped on this document by the
3 Serbian state security service.
4 Q. Is this similar to the heading that you have seen on other
5 documents that were official from the state security department?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are the numbers on this heading consistent with the numerical
8 sequencing of documents in the state security department?
9 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, we object to the leading nature of the
10 questions because this is clearly not in the statement of the witness.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course the most appropriate way of putting
13 this question would be, Is it similar or not similar to ... but that goes
14 to a level of detail. It's understood that this is what you would like
15 to ask from the witness.
16 Witness, could you please answer the question.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it looks like it. I've seen
18 such stamps that were in the place of a heading.
19 MR. WEBER: If we could please have the bottom of the document in
20 the B/C/S version.
21 Q. Sir, directing your attention to where the signature is at and
22 understanding that you are not a handwriting expert, does this look
23 similar to the short signature of anyone?
24 A. It looks like the initials of Jovica Stanisic.
25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P79 [sic]
1 marked for identification.
2 I believe I misspoke --
3 JUDGE ORIE: P179 or 79?
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
1 "Everything is all right. Everything is all right. Just keep on
2 working. Say, what do you need?"
3 MR. WEBER: Your Honour --
4 Q. Sir, the video that is before you is paused at the 8 second
5 marker. Do you recognise the individual that is depicted on the screen
6 right now?
7 A. He looks like Boca Medic.
8 MR. WEBER: If we could move back just one second. If we could
9 go further. Right there.
10 Q. Is that a better view of the individual on the screen?
11 A. Yes, it is Medic.
12 Q. Who is Medic?
13 A. Medic was the Skorpion commander.
14 Q. And you said earlier that he looks like Boca Medic. Is Boca his
15 first name or nickname?
16 A. Boca was his nickname.
17 Q. Was Boca subordinate to anyone?
18 A. Yes, in combat activities. He was one of the commanders, and he
19 was subordinated to our command staff.
20 Q. When you say your "command staff," who are you referring to?
21 A. I'm referring to Jovica Stanisic actually.
22 Q. You've also mentioned that Zoran Rajic was a commander of the
23 Skorpions. What was the level of subordination between Zoran Rajic and
24 Slobodan Medic?
25 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, this is also leading.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please rephrase the question, Mr. Weber.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. What was the command structure between Zoran Rajic and Medic?
4 A. I think that Zoran Rajic was in charge of that unit. That was my
5 understanding. But I never saw Zoran Rajic personally issuing any orders
6 to that unit. I personally didn't see that.
7 MR. WEBER: If we could please continue to the 12 second marker
8 and pause.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. WEBER: Pause right there.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. Sir, there's a second individual who now appears on the left of
14 Medic in the video. Do you recognise who this person is?
15 A. Miodrag [as interpreted] Ulemek, also known as Legija.
16 Q. Could you please re-state the first name of Ulemek?
17 A. Milorad Ulemek.
18 Q. Who is Milorad Ulemek?
19 A. Milorad Ulemek at that time was in charge. He was the commander
20 of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, and he was in charge of them in that
21 operation that we were engaged in in Kladusa.
22 MR. WEBER: Could we please play the remainder of the clip.
23 Q. And, sir, could you please watch and listen to the contents of
24 the video.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
2 "What do you need? Tell me. Goose. Goose. What do you need?
3 Tell me. Gooska, what do you need? Tell me. What do you need, Gooska?
4 "Down, down, Branko, down. In the left part, yes, in the left
5 part. I still have small problems with the right one.
6 "Well, go to hell. Give me, where is my Motorola?
7 "From this first house here. Come on and get. All right. In
8 that white house right from that one, that stable, and that hay there,
9 there where there is that trench.
10 "The white one, the biggest one?
11 "Yes, yes. I need a team to be sent here to take over. There
12 are five from 205.
13 "What idiots are they for fucks sake? They are idiots. Who has
14 brought them over here? Idiots.
15 "Come on, call Azim to send a team -- where? At Grmec?
17 "At Grmec to the command post to pick up a parcel.
18 "Fuck you and the parcel.
19 "They should kill them.
20 "Orkan, come in.
21 "Tell me, Orkan, come in, tell me, I'm listening.
22 "Well, we only need one.
23 "Well, fuck you. All right, all right, I solved it.
24 "Well, you try it just like that."
25 MR. WEBER:
1 Q. Sir, in the video that you just watched which I belive now has
2 ended at the 3 minute and 20 second marker. There's a reference to
3 Orkan, could you please explain what that is?
4 A. As far as I know, Orkan is a military piece. It is a
5 multi-rocket-launcher. And in this video-clip we can see that from Grmec
6 position they requested support, artillery support, or the other way
7 around. Grmec is an artillery position. Like, for example, in the
8 American, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, we in the Yugoslavia army --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Avala, Grmec, so G would stand for
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. With respect to the content of this video, can you tell what the
14 location is of this operation?
15 A. I can see a trench. And judging by the date, I would say that
16 this corresponds to the period when operations were underway in
17 Western Bosnia
18 Q. With respect to the communications equipment that was used
19 throughout this video-clip, do you recognise it?
20 A. Yes, Motorola radios, ZGP 300, we had the same type of
21 communications equipment in our unit.
22 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders into evidence of
23 the video-clip from 65 ter 1180. If we could tender the full
24 3 minute and 20 second clip.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? No.
1 Madam Registrar, the video-clip would receive number ...
2 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P483, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P483 is admitted into evidence.
4 Mr. Weber --
5 MR. WEBER:
6 Q. Did you have occasion to see --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Are you -- could I first ask you, are you more or
8 less on track as far as time is concerned?
9 MR. WEBER: I'm a little bit behind.
10 JUDGE ORIE: How much?
11 MR. WEBER: There is still not the resolution of the per diem
12 list, so without knowing that, I should be able to progress through my
13 remaining examination in the next half-hour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: How does our schedule look for the coming days? We
15 had three days this week, if I'm --
16 MR. WEBER: That's correct. The Prosecution will finish with
17 this witness today.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. WEBER: Then I believe that we do not know how much time will
20 be needed for cross-examination of this witness. And then I believe that
21 the Chamber had raised a question about next Tuesday which is not yet
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but is there any other witness waiting for ...
24 MR. WEBER: No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So we have today and tomorrow.
1 Could I receive an indication as to the time needed for
2 cross-examination of this witness? Mr. Knoops?
3 MR. KNOOPS: Approximately one hour and a half.
4 JUDGE ORIE: One hour and a half.
5 Mr. Bakrac?
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that I will
7 not need more than an hour and a half altogether.
8 JUDGE ORIE: One second. You may use another half-hour, and
9 we'll then look at the per diem lists as a separate issue as far as time
10 is concerned.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. Did you have occasion to see Legija in Petrova Gora?
14 A. Yes, I had a number of occasions to see him because he came very
15 often. He visited the place where we were billeted.
16 Q. Did you ever hear any conversations between Legija and
17 Franko Simatovic or Jovica Stanisic?
18 A. I was standing guard when I heard a conversation which was taking
19 place in the office between Franko Simatovic and Milorad Ulemek Legija.
20 Q. Could you please describe this conversation?
21 A. Milorad Ulemek wanted to take over the operation to take Kladusa.
22 I don't know which one, the Velika or the Mala. And he wanted to
23 transfer some of the troops from Lemici and Popovic Brdo, and he said
24 that he would be able to mount a frontal attack and take that position in
1 Q. Could you hear if Franko Simatovic said anything in response to
2 Legija's request?
3 A. Yes, he said, Okay, everything will be as we agreed.
4 Q. Approximately when did this conversation occur?
5 A. I can't give you the exact date, but it was sometime in November,
6 in the second half of November.
7 Q. Based on the interactions that you observed between Legija and
8 Franko Simatovic and Jovica Stanisic, could you please describe them?
9 A. Well, according to what I heard, one could tell from the type of
10 conversation that Milorad Ulemek was subordinated to Jovica Stanisic and
11 Franko Simatovic. I could tell by the way they talked.
12 Q. In paragraph 50 of Exhibit P441, you indicate that Fikret Abdic
13 arrived for meetings with Stanisic and Simatovic while you were in
14 Petrova Gora. How often did you see Fikret Abdic meet with
15 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic?
16 A. He came and I saw him on several occasions when he came to the
17 office to talk to them. I can't give you the dates. I can't tell you
18 how often, but I'm sure that I saw him two, three, or even four times
19 when he came.
20 Q. In paragraph 49 of Exhibit P441, you describe two meetings that
21 you observed between Milan Martic and Stanisic and Simatovic. Could you
22 please describe each of these meetings.
23 A. I wasn't present during the meeting. I know that they came to
24 the command post where we were. On two occasions I saw them. On the
25 first one they came altogether at the same time in their vehicles, and on
1 the second occasion they came separately. And I'm referring to
2 Ratko Mladic and Martic.
3 Q. In your statement you refer to Ratko Mladic coming in
4 December of 1994 during the second meeting of -- with Milan Martic.
5 Could you please describe the exchange that occurred between
6 Ratko Mladic's men and the members of the Red Berets who were on duty?
7 A. I was standing on the terrace with a person whose nickname was
8 Njegos; he was a member of our unit. I was getting ready to go home.
9 Can I please look at the part of the statement where I stated
10 that? I would like to look at my own words, the way I described the
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I think the most --
13 MR. WEBER: It's paragraph 49.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The most appropriate way of dealing with it is
15 first to elicit what the witness remembers. And if there's any need to
16 refresh his memory, so -- but let's not start by refreshing the memory.
17 And I -- yes.
18 MR. WEBER: If I may read the statement, consistent with
19 92 ter practice.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- let's -- I know that it is, but let's
21 first -- yes.
22 Could you first tell us what your recollection is. And if there
23 are details you may have forgotten about, then we'll further look perhaps
24 at your statement. So could you please -- you started answering a -- the
25 question by saying that you were standing on the terrace with a person
1 whose nickname was, and then you mentioned his nickname, being a member
2 of your unit, and you were getting ready to go home. Could you please
3 continue to describe the exchange that occurred.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was standing with Negos. Mladic
5 approached us, and he said, Why are you in civilian clothes? At that
6 time I didn't know who he was, and I told him, Fatso, mind your own
7 business. After that, they entered the office where he was.
8 Stojan Zupljanin came with them. I spoke to Stojan Zupljanin's guards
9 and his driver. His name was Branko Simic, and the other was
10 Predrag Brestovac. And there was another man whose nickname was
11 Vuha [phoen]. And they told me that they had arrived from Pale.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. In paragraphs 62 and 63 of Exhibit P441, you discuss your service
14 in Tara
15 "Members of the unit used the gym and swimming pool of the
16 Omorika Hotel for training."
17 Where is the Omorika Hotel located in Tara?
18 A. The hotel at Tara
19 facility with a complete infrastructure as any other small size hotel.
20 It was about 3 and a half kilometres away from hotel Omorika, and it
21 looked like a lower-category facility.
22 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have ERN 0675-6870A.
23 This is a photograph that was provided to the OTP in proofing in April
24 and shown to the Defence prior to the examination of the witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, may I first seek clarification.
1 You said "with a complete infrastructure as any other small size
2 hotel." Now, sometimes I find complete infrastructures in large hotels
3 rather than in the small ones. Is that what your testimony is?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to describe the hotel, and
5 I wanted to tell you that the hotel looked as any other. The personnel
6 of that hotel was similar to any other hotel. It didn't have a swimming
7 pool or any other such things, but it had accommodation facilities, there
8 was a laundry room, there was a kitchen.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I'm rather confused. The question was:
10 "Where is the Omorika Hotel located in Tara?"
11 Then you said:
12 "The hotel at Tara
13 facility with a complete infrastructure as any other small size hotel."
14 And then you say:
15 "It was about 3 and a half kilometres away from the hotel
17 So when you were asked to describe the location of the Om
18 orika Hotel, you apparently described the location or the facilities of a
19 hotel other than Omorika. Is that well understood?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we were billeted in a motel
21 whose name was Tara
22 hotel which had a swimming pool as well. And that hotel, the latter, was
23 called Omorika.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that explains the confusion.
25 Mr. Weber, please proceed.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. Sir, do you see a photograph in front of you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who is depicted in this photograph?
5 A. Djordje Kuburovic and myself. That was Djordje Kuburovic's room.
6 Q. Where was this photograph taken?
7 A. This photo was taken in the Tara
8 where we slept.
9 Q. Just so we have a clear record, are you located on the right or
10 left in this photograph, as you are looking at it?
11 A. I'm on the right-hand side of the photo.
12 Q. Can you please describe the weapons that you are holding?
13 A. This is a machine-gun PKT-7.62 x 54 millimetres.
14 Q. When did you receive this weapon?
15 A. I received this weapon as part of the unit's armament. Actually,
16 this machine-gun was issued to Desimir Butkovic.
17 Q. Did you then acquire it at some later point?
18 A. No. At the time, I had a standard automatic rifle 7.62 and the
19 rocket-launcher, but for the purpose of this photo I took
20 Desimir Butkovic's machine-gun and that's how the photo was taken.
21 Q. Could you please describe the equipment depicted on the lower
22 left-hand side of this photograph?
23 A. Yes. You can see uniforms that we were issued with. You can see
24 the colour of the uniform, black and blue, which were used by
25 Special Police Units. And in the back you see back-packs used by the
1 American army. And most of those back-packs bore the insignia standing
2 for the United States, US. Behind me there are boots, Gortex boots,
3 which were very expensive at the time, and ankle boots that we used in
4 confined spaces for assaults and anti-terrorist activities and for
5 helicopter actions. This is all the equipment that we were issued with
6 during training at Surcin Airport
7 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders this photograph into
9 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph under the 65 ter 5315 becomes
11 Exhibit P484, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. At the end of May 1995, what was the reason that you decided to
16 leave the JATD?
17 A. Zvezdan Jovanovic was appointed the unit commander, and he
18 brought a man who was in charge of us. I can't remember his name. I
19 stood guard by a tree for 10 to 12 hours as a disciplinary measure, and I
20 could no longer bear that psychologically. I filed a request to leave
21 the unit. I handed it over. I returned all the equipment at the
23 come I left everything in Tara
24 there, and he said that Zvezdan Jovanovic could not have received any
25 equipment from me, that it could only be done by the person who had
1 issued the equipment to me in the first place.
2 Q. In paragraph 63 of Exhibit P441 you state that you were later
3 told that you should leave the 72nd Brigade and you went to the Belgrade
4 headquarters of the Serb Volunteer Guard. What is the reason that you
5 were told to leave the 72nd Brigade?
6 A. The then-commander who was my superior in the
7 72nd Special Brigade where I started working after having left that unit
8 told me that he did not want to have any former members of that unit in
9 the 72nd Brigade. And they sent me to Mount Avala. And I was met there
10 by a security officer who then questioned me about Operation Pauk in
11 Velika Kladusa. He didn't actually have many questions about why I was
12 leaving the 72nd Brigade and who had sent me. I was told at the time
13 that they already knew that I had been a member of that unit even before
14 they heard it from me.
15 Q. You indicate that you subsequently went to the headquarters of
16 the Serbian Volunteer Guard after leaving the 72nd Brigade. How did you
17 know where the headquarters of the Serb Volunteer Guard was located in
19 A. It was generally known that in the headquarters of the
20 Party of Serb Unity at Beograd Utica Street there was the reception
21 centre for volunteers who wanted to join the Serb Volunteers Guard.
22 Q. You say it was generally known. Who generally knew the location
23 of the headquarters of the party of the Serb Volunteer Guard?
24 A. The people I communicated with at the time. There were a number
25 of them who were already members of the Serb Volunteers Guard, and they
1 told me. So I meant the people around me. Milic is the last name of one
2 of them.
3 Q. What is the name that the Serb Volunteer Guard is commonly known
4 by to you?
5 A. They were called Arkan's Tigers.
6 Q. During your time in Erdut and Klisa, did you see any members of
7 the SDG who you knew from your time in Velika Kladusa?
8 A. Yes. I saw Big Rambo, who -- he was at Velika Kladusa, and he
9 was Sarac. He was a captain at the time. I met him, and he even gave me
10 a permit to go home. So he signed my permit to leave the area where I
11 was at the time, that was the camp at Erdut.
12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have ERN 0675-6869.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I further inquire. You said you saw
14 Big Rambo. He was at Velika Kladusa. And what did you then say? And he
15 was ...
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was one of the commanders of the
17 Serbian Volunteers Guard.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know his real name?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that his last name is
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed.
22 MR. WEBER:
23 Q. Do you recognise this photograph?
24 A. Yes. It was taken in the village of Klisa
25 members of the SDG who were not members of my platoon. This was an
1 abandoned house. We found the personal documents of an elderly woman.
2 We simply took the opportunity to take a photograph.
3 Q. Where are you depicted in this photograph?
4 A. I'm the one who is standing.
5 Q. Do you recall the names of the two individuals who are sitting?
6 A. No, I don't remember the names. I only had my photograph taken
7 with them then.
8 Q. Could you -- I am sorry, was there something you wanted to --
9 A. I spoke to them, and I could tell by their speech that they were
10 not from Serbia
11 Q. Was this photograph taken during your service in the SDG?
12 A. Yes. It was taken at some time in 1995 in early December.
13 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders this photograph into
15 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar,
16 the number would be -- because I see it's uploaded as one out of a series
17 of five. You just want to tender this photograph?
18 MR. WEBER: Yes, and there will be one more.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The photograph you -- the earlier one was also
21 one out of a series of five, so we are getting --
22 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I didn't realise that they had all been
23 uploaded together. I thought that they were separate.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because the two persons in the room is number 4
25 out of 5. Now, you want to have them separately --
1 MR. WEBER: The -- if we could, actually, because he is
2 describing them individually.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the previous one, therefore, is the
4 fourth page out of five from the uploaded 65 ter number, whereas the
5 present one is the second page out of five as uploaded.
6 Madam Registrar, this --
7 THE REGISTRAR: So fourth page of 65 ter 5315 becomes
8 Exhibit P484, just for the record. And page 2 of the 65 ter 5315 becomes
9 Exhibit P485, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And in order to avoid whatever confusion, P485 is
11 ERN 0675-6869, whereas P484 is ERN 0675-6870A.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 1 of 65 ter
14 5315, which is ERN 0675-6868.
15 Q. Sir, do you recognise this photograph?
16 A. Yes. This photograph was taken at Erdut. This is behind the
17 reception facility for new recruits. Upstairs there was a cafeteria.
18 This is a platoon of the SDG which I -- to which I was assigned.
19 Q. When was this photograph taken?
20 A. I think that this was late October 1995.
21 Q. Are you depicted in this photograph?
22 A. Yes. But this photograph is deliberately blurred. I'm squatting
23 on the left.
24 MR. WEBER: It might be easiest if we actually -- if the witness
25 could be, please, provided a pen, and the Prosecution will ask the
1 witness to circle his location in the photograph.
2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
3 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the screen capture that has
4 been marked by the witness into evidence at this time.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
6 Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P486, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, photograph marked by the witness, P486 is
9 admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
10 MR. WEBER:
11 Q. Did you receive any type of payments as a member of the
12 Red Berets?
13 A. As a member of the Red Berets, yes, I received a salary and
14 per diems.
15 Q. When did these payments begin?
16 A. As members of the unit, we started receiving salaries -- well, I
17 actually think that we received something upfront from May on.
18 Q. When you refer to May, May of what year?
19 A. I'm talking about May 1994. Actually, no, I apologise,
20 June 1994. That's when I started receiving my salary and the per diems.
21 Q. How did you receive these payments?
22 A. We received our salaries in cash. The cash was in envelopes.
23 And we signed pay slips that we had received the salaries and the
24 per diems.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, if you are running out of time, isn't
1 this in the statement as well?
2 MR. WEBER: It is. And I'm almost finished, actually,
3 Your Honour, with my entire examination.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, then.
5 MR. WEBER:
6 Q. Could you please -- it is in the statement. Just so we have it
7 on the record though, could you describe these envelopes?
8 A. They were specific envelopes that I only saw at these two places,
9 either at the JATD or at the SDG. There was a -- like, a table on the
10 back side of the envelope. The same kind that you would find enclosed
11 with your chequebook. And the table was blue, whereas the envelopes
12 themselves were white.
13 Q. How many payments did you receive as a member of the SDG?
14 A. Three times. I got three salaries. The first salary wasn't paid
15 out in full because I had only yet joined the SDG, whereas the following
16 two were full salaries. The amount was about 300 German marks.
17 Q. Was this more or less than you were paid as a member of the
18 Red Berets?
19 A. As far as I remember the amount, this was about half the amount I
20 received as a JATD member.
21 Q. Were you paid in the same manner while you were a member of the
22 Serbian Volunteer Guard as when you were a member of the Red Berets?
23 A. Yes. We got our money in the envelopes, but the bank notes were
24 brand new. And we were standing in line one behind the other with our
25 rifles pointed at the one in front. And that's the way we would come up
1 to the commander who would give us the envelopes with the salaries.
2 Q. Based on your experience with the Red Berets and the Serbian
3 Volunteer Guard, who was in overall command of Arkan's Tigers?
4 A. Based on what I was able to conclude, it was a unit controlled by
5 the state security of Serbia
6 Q. On what do you base your statement that it was a unit controlled
7 by the state security of Serbia
8 A. Well, let me first say that the staff of the
9 Party of Serbian Unity in Belgrade
10 weapons. And it wasn't possible or it wasn't allowed to use automatic
11 weapons for that purpose without a special permission from the MUP. By
12 the way -- or listening -- witnessing the communication between Legija
13 and his superior, I was able to tell that he was subordinate to the
14 one --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down and repeat.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please slow down for the
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Sir, I believe you were saying that something to the effect "By
20 the way -- or listening -- the communication between Legija and his
21 superior ..."
22 Could you please continue.
23 A. Yes. By the type of communication between Legija and our staff,
24 it was clear that Milorad Ulemek was subordinate to them. The way that
25 per diems were paid out in special envelopes only at these two places,
1 then the use of long-barrelled automatic weapons to guard the
2 headquarters of the Party of Serb Unity or the SDG in Belgrade, then the
3 fact that uniformed persons were driving around in vans with a tiger
4 insignia. These people were armed, driving around Serbia. All that
5 tells me that this unit could not have behaved that way without the
6 consent of the Serb police and the state security and the like.
7 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I could have a moment.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Weber. May I draw your attention to the
9 fact that when I asked you not to ask questions on matters which are
10 already in the statement, that the next three or four questions were
11 exactly what we find already in the statement. And then you said you
12 were almost finished. I hope that that is true.
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I believe the witness provided greater
14 detail than the -- than in his statement, and with the caveat that
15 there's unresolved issue as to a substantial number of exhibits, that
16 being the per diem records, the Prosecution doesn't have any further
17 questions. But we would still reserve or express the caveat that there
18 may need to be further discussion about those records.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do you think that the next break would bring
20 you any further, or would it be a matter which the Chamber would have to
21 deal with after the break?
22 MR. WEBER: I'm not sure if it would or would not, but the
23 Prosecution is willing to discuss it with the Defence. It was a little
24 hurried right at the end coming back here.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll hear from you after the break.
1 We'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes past 6.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 5.38 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I have to formally put on the
5 record that P485 which is one of these photographs is admitted into
6 evidence, that was not yet clear.
7 Then, Mr. Weber, I don't know whether you've forgotten about it,
8 but we haven't heard any summary of the 92 ter statement. I don't know
9 whether you prepared it or not.
10 MR. WEBER: I did prepare it. Pursuant to the Chamber's
11 instructions of 18 February, 2010, I am ready to proceed with one. I
12 didn't know, because of the fact he is testifying publicly, if you would
13 want one, but I'm ready to proceed with one.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the purpose is to inform the public about the
15 evidence which is not elicited viva voce from the witness but
16 nevertheless to enable the -- at the same time, of course, we've heard
17 quite a lot of detail. I don't know how long it is.
18 MR. WEBER: It's three and a quarter paragraphs.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps we first hear that so that the
20 public is better able to follow the proceedings. Have you explained to
21 the witness what the purpose of this is?
22 MR. WEBER: I had not.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll do it.
24 Mr. Sliskovic, Mr. Weber will read a summary of what the public
25 has not heard, which is the content of your statement. The public heard
1 some details but not the main body of it. And in order for the public to
2 follow the proceedings, Mr. Weber will briefly summarise it. It's not
3 evidence. You don't have to correct it. But he will read it out.
4 Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER: The witness Dejan Sliskovic is a Serb male and former
6 member of the special anti-terrorist unit of the Serbian DB. This unit
7 of the Serbian DB is referred to as the JATD and commonly known as the
8 Red Berets. Mr. Sliskovic was recruited into the JATD by a local head of
9 an RDB centre in Pancevo. The witness went to the Serbian DB
10 headquarters at Kneza Milosa Street 103 in Belgrade and Dragan Krsmanovic
11 interviewed the witness after he underwent a medical check and
12 psychological tests.
13 Subsequent to this testing and interview, the witness reported to
14 the Serbian KB headquarters in Belgrade
15 confirming his employment with the Serbian DB. This decision was signed
16 by Jovica Stanisic. Mr. Sliskovic was then sent to the Serbian DB
17 facility in the Lipovica forest where he received training as a member of
18 the Red Berets. The witness's instructors included Vaso Mijovic, Fica
19 Filipovic, Zoran Rajic, and Drasko Suvara, among others.
20 During his time in the Red Berets, the witness learned that these
21 individuals were members of a paramilitary combat unit since the
22 formation of Captain Dragan's training camp at Knin in 1991.
23 Mr. Sliskovic travelled with other members of the regular
24 formation of the JATD in a convoy. This convoy was joined by
25 reserve/paramilitary formations of the Red Berets and also Arkan's Tigers
1 who were under the command of Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic. Upon
2 their arrival in Petrova Gora, the witness was deployed to guard the
3 facilities where Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic were located.
4 While on duty, Mr. Sliskovic saw Jovica Stanisic and
5 Franko Simatovic conduct a number of meetings. The meetings were held
6 with Milan Martic, Fikret Abdic, Milorad Ulemek, aka Legija, and
7 Stojan Zupljanin. In the spring of 1995, Mr. Sliskovic was sent to Tara
8 and served under the command of Zvezdan Jovanovic as a member of the
9 Red Berets.
10 The witness subsequently left the Red Berets and later joined the
11 Serbian Volunteer Guard, also known and referred to as the SDG or
12 Arkan's Tigers. As a member the SDG, Mr. Sliskovic was sent to a base
13 near Erdut. As a member of the SDG, the witness was paid in the same way
14 as when he was a member of the Red Berets. In addition to the official
15 decision of appointment signed by the accused Jovica Stanisic,
16 Mr. Sliskovic's employment with the Serbian DB as a member of the JATD is
17 confirmed on 25 separate per diem payroll records between the dates of
18 June 1994 and July 1995.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber. Finally, one little detail.
20 As far as geographical names are concerned, Mount Tara
21 Chamber, Petrova Gora is, Lipovica is, I think that it's the first time
22 that we have this location, but if the parties agree that it's
23 approximately 20 kilometres south of Belgrade, is that where we found
24 Lipovica forest?
25 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I believe the witness did talk about
1 that in his statement. I didn't lead any evidence on it. I can lead it,
2 but that is our understanding.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's okay. Then there's no problem in
4 relation to that.
5 And who will be the first Defence counsel --
6 MR. WEBER: Sorry. Excuse me --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Oh, yes. First I have to inquire as to
8 whether any solution has been reached on the documents you were
10 MR. WEBER: The short answer to that is no. The witness on the
11 stand is a witness who is able to authenticate a substantial number of
12 records from the state security service of Serbia. Before tendering the
13 witness, the Prosecution plans on tendering a total of 65 per diem and
14 payment records from the state security service. It is our understanding
15 based on the objection and concern that was raised by the Defence of
16 Mr. Stanisic that there were transliterations of some but not all of the
17 per diem records that were provided on this past week.
18 The Prosecution acknowledges that this is the case. The
19 Prosecution also would note that the Defence has notice of these names in
20 two forms: First, the accused were provided with all of these exhibits
21 in a language that is understood by them. The Simatovic Defence itself
22 understands Cyrillic. Second, the additional transliterations that were
23 tendered were just transliterations of the names, the remaining names
24 that were listed in these exhibits.
25 These names are also listed on different exhibits that were
1 completed in complete translations. So the Prosecution did inquire with
2 the Defence if there are particular names to which they feel there is a
3 prejudice. There are no names that have been provided to us.
4 Hence, the Prosecution would seek to proceed in this way: If
5 there is no objection to the relevance or authenticity of this witness,
6 with the witness on the stand with these 65 exhibits, then that is a
7 matter that the Prosecution can tender the witness and we can deal with
8 issues of notice as to whether or not there are any new or additional
9 names which would seek to cause any prejudice to either the accused in
10 written submissions.
11 However, if there are any objections as to the relevance or
12 authenticity of these documents, we do have a witness here present in the
13 courtroom who has provided lengthy comments on 25 of the exhibits to
14 which he has personally listed. As indicated earlier, these are per diem
15 and payment records received pursuant to an RFA that's now in evidence as
16 P469. In addition, there are detailed discussions as to the authenticity
17 of these records in P470, the confidential annex from Serbia.
18 We would submit to the Chamber that the similar names, stamps,
19 format, and signatures that are present on the 40 non-associated exhibits
20 convey a sufficient reliability upon those documents to warrant their
21 admission at this time without further testimony of the witness.
22 So we tender the floor to the Chamber with regard to this issue
23 and the Defence; do not know if it's acceptable to the Defence, if
24 there's an issue as to the notice of the new names that were
25 transliterated, if they would raise it within a reasonable period of time
1 in a written submission we can deal with it in that matter; otherwise, if
2 there is no objection to the relevance and authenticity, we can tender
3 the witness at this time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- any response? Mr. Bakrac, you are the one
5 who is said to be able to read Cyrillic.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I indeed am able
7 to read Cyrillic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, do you have any objections against the
9 bar table admission, more or less, of the series of documents that -- the
10 long series which we find on our list, isn't it?
11 MR. WEBER: There are 25, they are associated and highlighted in
12 green, and then there's an additional 40 that would be bar tabled. But
13 the witness is likely capable to testify to their authenticity.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Any objection against any of these documents, and if so, on what
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I have no
18 objections. Albeit, I think that it may be convenient to ask this
19 witness whether or not he had seen such lists before his testimony at all
20 and whether he is familiar with them or whether he may have seen similar
22 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, this is discussed in the witness's
23 statements for eight pages between page 18 and page 26.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, lots of numbers are -- is there anything in
25 addition to what is already in the statement, Mr. Bakrac, that you would
1 like the witness to tell us about?
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was mentioned, but,
3 believe me, I'm not sure whether he commented what was shown to him or if
4 he said that he remembers those lists to be a payroll. That is what I
5 don't understand from his statement. My learned friend Mr. Weber indeed
6 discussed these lists. I meant that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: What then remains is whether he has seen this for
8 the first time now or whether he had seen it in the past.
9 MR. WEBER: Well, as it's indicated in the first one, he signed
10 it and recognised his own signature on the document. So it seems very
11 clear since his actual physical signature is on the document, it may not
12 be in the statement whether or not he saw it before, but he indicated he
13 signed the document, so I think there's an indication that he has
14 physically been in contact with the list before.
15 The other ones were signed by other individuals, and I think he's
16 clear throughout his statement that he saw lists like this one, he either
17 signed them or saw other people sign them.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Bakrac, if there's any additional question
19 you'd like to put to the witness in cross-examination which is not
20 already clear, then you have an opportunity to do so.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, you are right.
22 That's what I will do. I apologise, my learned friend reminded me, it is
23 mentioned in the statement that he recognised his signature on some of
24 these lists.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Jordash, the -- I think we identified the
1 issue on which your objection was based at the beginning of the testimony
2 as being one of notice. What you said, if I remember well, is that you
3 had some of the names were transcribed in the Roman script but now having
4 received all of the names transcribed in Roman script, you expressed some
5 fear that now the Prosecution would deal with the other names as well.
6 Now, I do not know exactly what was in the Roman script before and what
7 was added last Friday. If there's anything -- that seemed to be the
9 Now, you've heard the testimony of the witness and you've heard
10 the questions of the Prosecution. Is that still the issue?
11 MR. JORDASH: That is still the issue. We don't know, because we
12 haven't had time to check, as in the Defence, what has been translated
13 and what is new. The Prosecution say, Well, the names that have been
14 translated which you were newly notified of on Friday don't prejudice you
15 but we have no way because of the shortness of time of knowing that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: But let's just assume that you would not have
17 received that on Friday. What would have been your position then?
18 MR. JORDASH: Well, our position would have been that the
19 Prosecution had notified us of the evidence that they sought to rely
20 upon. They translated it. We had proceeded on that basis for the last
21 months and years that this is the evidence which is the case against the
22 accused. That in Cyrillic is not evidence because it's not in the
23 working language of the Court. We will not look at that because our
24 resources are limited and we look at what is the Prosecution case as
25 notified by that which has been translated.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But what I do understand is that the Prosecution
2 says, well, apart from the names we have given to you, There are others
3 on that list; that's all. Is there -- do you want to research whether
4 these others were not at home or ...
5 MR. JORDASH: Well, the big -- the issue in a way starts before
6 this. What the Prosecution - and we've raised this before - what the
7 Prosecution are doing is simply throwing names at us on lists and saying
8 these are the people who were in the JATD. And when witnesses then come
9 to testify in lengthy proofing sessions, as this witness himself
10 underwent, a meaning is put on the name. So we have a name in the list,
11 a witness comes along and says, Oh, yes, I remember that name; he did X,
12 Y, and Z.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But, now, has that happened here?
14 MR. WEBER: First of all --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any names which were in the earlier
16 versions not readable for Mr. Jordash and Mr. Knoops on which you have
17 asked questions to the witness?
18 MR. WEBER: Not that I am aware of. With respect to these
19 exhibits, there are a lot of exhibits, and they are very extensive lists.
20 Now, some of them are in Roman, some of them are in Cyrillic. So the
21 Defence has the names in the Roman and they repeat in the Cyrillic and
22 vice-versa. So they've been aware of the names. It's just now that
23 we've completed the tranliteration of the -- of certain -- we just
24 completed the tranliteration of the ones that were in Cyrillic. So that
25 is our position. Again, not hearing any objection to authenticity of
1 these records, which, by the way, we're not saying that they are members
2 of the JATD, the Republic of Serbia
3 saying that they are member of the state security service.
4 So the relevance of it seems quite clear. The authenticity seems
5 quite clear. The Prosecution's wanting to deal with the issue of notice.
6 If the Defence wants to put in writing in a short period of time how they
7 are prejudiced, we can respond.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
9 Now, Mr. Jordash, authenticity or relevance, is that an issue?
10 MR. JORDASH: Well, dealing with authenticity, in terms of the
11 threshold employed by the Tribunal, probably not. Although it would be
12 useful for us to be able to check those translations of the names to be
13 sure. That's the first point. We would like to be able to have the same
14 opportunity to independently verify, come to our own conclusion as to
15 authenticity, as the Prosecution have had. They've had that opportunity.
16 They served the new translations on Friday. They stand there saying,
17 well, they're not prejudiced as to authenticity and relevance, and we
18 cannot come to that same independent view ourselves. So that's
20 In terms of relevance, we are in the same place. And I go back
21 to what I said a moment ago. The relevance is becoming apparent only
22 witness by witness, and that's why we are taking quite a cautious view.
23 When we have suddenly a new name translated from Cyrillic, it is not just
24 the new name that is going to be a problem, it is going be the new name
25 plus a new piece of evidence given by the next witness who is asked to
1 comment on that name and asked to say whether he recognises that name or
2 not and what that person on that list did.
3 JUDGE ORIE: But that's for the future. What we have as
4 relevance now is that we have lists of people that were apparently paid
5 in a certain system. Those lists this witness appears on. Now if -- as
6 soon as another witness would come and say, Oh, look, look, my name is on
7 them as well, I do not see what the relevance issue is. I can imagine
8 that you say relevance becomes a different one. That is, that we have to
9 further explore and further investigate that name on that list. But at
10 this moment those names who are on those lists where we have not heard
11 any specific evidence either by this witness or by any other witness at
12 this moment, it's just remaining names on lists, which lists are
13 apparently records of payments.
14 MR. JORDASH: But without any proper, in our view, explanation as
15 to relevance to the charges. Relevance as to the existence of the JATD,
16 we can concede that. Of course, if they are put forward as lists
17 relating to payments to JATD members, then they are relevant to that
18 issue. As to relevance to the charges --
19 JUDGE ORIE: But isn't the existence of the JATD to some extent
20 relevant for the charges?
21 MR. JORDASH: Yes, it is.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So, therefore, we can't say that there's no
24 MR. JORDASH: Well, we don't say there's no relevance, just not
25 sufficient relevance indicated by the approach the Prosecution are
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll deal with the matter. One second.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber invites the Prosecution to tender these
5 documents as bar table documents. If the Chamber -- the only possible
6 concern the Chamber will honour is that notice has not been given to the
7 Defence on the relevance of those other names in view of testimony still
8 to be heard or evidence still to be presented. The -- although the
9 Chamber considers that this is rather a matter of weight to be given to
10 that evidence, the Chamber will, upon recent submissions, will give an
11 opportunity to the Stanisic Defence, if in further investigating names
12 that now suddenly are readable, although they were readable already for
13 the Defence at an earlier stage in Cyrillic, but upon now investigating
14 names which the Defence rightly or wrongly understood as not to be
15 focused on because they were only given in Cyrillic, then we'll hear any
16 recent submissions and find a remedy, or at least we'll consider whether
17 any remedy is needed then.
18 We do not urge the Prosecution to go through the whole of the
19 list. That seems to be not efficient. And the Chamber, therefore,
20 rather, proceeds in the most efficient way.
21 Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER: On the 23rd of November, 2009, we've had a pending
23 bar table motion for all these exhibits now for a long time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. WEBER: And I don't know if the Chamber want us to re-file
2 JUDGE ORIE: What -- of course, what would like to know is where
3 these all of them. I hope you understand that I haven't got them all in
4 my memory, exactly all the numbers. Is this -- there are more on that
6 MR. WEBER: There are some more. Actually listening to everyone
7 in the courtroom, we're not very far apart. The Chamber hit it directly
8 on that this is relevant to show the existence of the JATD, the
9 Red Berets, that they existed.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least I asked Mr. Jordash whether he
11 said -- he said the level of relevance is insufficient.
12 MR. WEBER: And Mr. Jordash then expressed a concern as to
13 untransliterated names that are suddenly going to come out of the
14 woodwork as being, I guess, perpetrators. But the Prosecution translated
15 originally the key names to its case, so we are relying on these extra
16 names as to --
17 JUDGE ORIE: What you're doing is arguing again your position at
18 this moment, isn't it? Whereas the Chamber when I said you are invited,
19 perhaps I should have said that the Chamber does not insist on going
20 through those documents any further with this witness and at the same
21 time gives an opportunity to the Prosecution where -- to the Defence who
22 says, Well, we are not put on notice. But the annexes to the bar table
23 submission, were all the names already written? They were not written
24 yet in Roman.
25 MR. WEBER: I just wanted to add on. I didn't mean to interrupt,
1 Your Honour, just because it didn't sound like we were actually that far
2 apart on our perception on the documents. With respect to the record
3 that we have right now, would Your Honours like me to formally read in
4 the 65 ter numbers of the other 40 or just make that a part of the
6 JUDGE ORIE: If you would make that -- if you'd put that on paper
7 and make that submission, a written submission, so we have them all.
8 MR. WEBER: And before tendering the witness, is there a ruling
9 as to the objection as to the authenticity and relevance?
10 JUDGE ORIE: There was -- as matters stand now, there is no --
11 there is a challenge to the authenticity which is of such a general
12 nature that the Chamber will deny at this moment such a challenge. But,
13 again, if from the full list of names in the script you can read suddenly
14 matters would appear differently, then, of course, the Chamber will hear
15 from Mr. Jordash.
16 As far as the relevance is concerned, the level of relevance
17 which was considered by Mr. Jordash to be insufficient and in that
18 respect he more or less contradicted himself that he said that under the
19 case law of Tribunal it might be relevant material, that to the extent
20 that the level of relevance is considered by the Defence to be an
21 obstacle to admission, that is denied.
22 Are matters clear for all the parties?
23 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender the witness with the
24 understanding that we do have a witness on the stand that can testify to
25 the authenticity or relevance of any of these documents. So absent any
1 particular objections to any of these individuals, we tender them.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take -- I take it that if the witness could
3 tell us anything -- and the Chamber is not -- of course, authenticity,
4 the Chamber can, under the rules, can require evidence of authenticity as
5 it may be clear to you now that the Chamber is not requiring that, but,
6 of course, if there's any challenge to the authenticity which goes beyond
7 what we just heard, then Mr. Jordash and Mr. Bakrac have an opportunity
8 to see whether this witness could give any evidence which should -- which
9 would shed light on the possible lack of authenticity.
10 MR. WEBER: And it's just the Prosecution's understanding there's
11 no objection from the Simatovic Defence to the admission?
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, as far as I understand there is not. Then I
13 think we are ready to proceed. Who will be the first to cross-examine
14 the witness? Will it be the Stanisic Defence?
15 Mr. Knoops, you are on your feet.
16 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sliskovic, you will now be examined by
18 Mr. Knoops. Mr. Knoops is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Knoops.
20 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honour. May I please have P484 on
21 the screen. P484.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Photographs usually take a while to be uploaded, and
23 I think it was a photograph.
24 MR. KNOOPS: Yes, sure.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It's my recollection that P484 was number five out
1 of the series of -- or number 4, is that ...
2 MR. KNOOPS: It was the first photograph.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the first photograph.
4 MR. KNOOPS: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Which was ...
6 MR. KNOOPS: Yes. 6870A, I believe.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are almost there. Yes, there we are.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Knoops:
11 Q. Mr. Witness, this photograph you testified on earlier, was this
12 taken before or after you were given your red beret?
13 A. When we arrived at the Tara
14 when the photo was taken. And when we were in our rooms, we usually wore
15 our civilian clothes.
16 Q. Yes. So the answer to the question is that this photo was taken
17 after you were given the red beret; is that correct?
18 A. This photo was taken approximately a year after I was given my
19 red beret.
20 Q. Yes. And you agree with me that the red beret is nowhere on this
21 picture amongst the equipment; is that correct?
22 A. No, you can't see a red beret in the photo.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. But this room was really not very neat.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
1 MR. KNOOPS: Could the witness please be shown the red beret
2 itself, if it's still there. Yes.
3 Q. Mr. Witness, could you do us a favour and put this red beret on
4 your head?
5 Yes, thank you, you can take it off. Is it correct, Mr. Witness,
6 that --
7 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if the record could just reflect the red
8 beret fit on the witness's head.
9 MR. KNOOPS: Well, this is, I think, an interpretation of the
11 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree that what happened in Court should be put
12 on the record. I leave it to you, Mr. Knoops, to describe whether it
13 fitted or not or -- but on the record it's not visible now whether he did
14 what you asked him to do.
15 MR. KNOOPS: Well, maybe then the record can reflect --
16 JUDGE ORIE: But I do not know -- I would easily do it myself If
17 I would know what exactly it is what you would put on the record. He did
18 put the beret on his head, and the lower part of the beret was to the
19 right side of his head. To the right side. Now, I do not know whether
20 what other relevant features you noticed which you would like to have on
21 the record.
22 MR. KNOOPS: That's sufficient, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's sufficient.
24 MR. KNOOPS: Yes, thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Witness, is it correct that the insignia on the red beret was
1 put on the beret by yourself or by any of your family members?
2 A. I put the insignia on the beret the moment I was given both the
3 insignia and the beret. The only thing that I changed later on were the
4 screws on the bolts.
5 Q. So it is correct that when you were given the red beret it was
6 without insignia; is that correct?
7 A. No. All unit members were allowed to put their insignia on their
8 berets. There is a place on the beret where you are supposed to put the
9 insignia, on the inside.
10 Q. Just to clarify, Mr. Witness, did you receive the beret and put
11 the insignia yourself on the beret, on any occasion?
12 A. Fifteen of us put the insignia on our berets at the same time. I
13 myself put the insignia on my own beret.
14 Q. Yes. And who gave you this insignia?
15 A. At the Lipovica forest camp we received insignia together with
16 the uniforms and the berets. And it was the man who was in charge of the
17 storeroom who gave all those to us.
18 Q. The same accounts for the red beret, you got it through the
19 storage; is that correct?
20 A. Yes. Myself and everybody else in the unit.
21 Q. Until what time you had this red beret in your possession?
22 A. That red beret was in my possession until six years ago when I
23 handed it over to the investigator.
24 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Witness, that the red beret in your submission
25 was given to you before the training?
1 A. As I've already told you, two days after arriving at the
2 Lipovica forest camp, we were given the equipment. And that's when we
3 also received the berets and the insignia.
4 Q. At that time you still had to undergo the training; is that
6 A. Yes. That was the beginning of training at the Lipovica forest
7 camp and at Surcin Airport
8 Q. So actually the red beret was not a kind of a reward you got
9 after the training; is that correct?
10 A. No. It was part of the uniform that I was issued with.
11 Q. You are familiar with the fact that in those days there were many
12 units wearing red berets; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, there were. There were also units in the military who wore
14 red berets.
15 Q. As a matter of fact, Mr. Witness, also the special --
16 72nd Special Brigade of the VJ which you joined in 1995 had red berets;
17 is that correct?
18 A. Yes, correct.
19 Q. And are you familiar with the fact that a unit with the name Mice
20 wore red berets as well as the Wolves from Vucjak and the Predo units; is
21 that correct?
22 A. I heard that other units also wore red berets, but I am sure only
23 of my unit and the 72nd Special Brigade from Serbia, I'm sure of these
24 two that they wore red berets.
25 Q. As a matter of fact, Mr. Witness, everybody in those days started
1 to wear red berets; is that correct?
2 MR. WEBER: Objection. Vague as to the characterisation of
4 JUDGE ORIE: I take it everybody is everybody in Serbia. Is that
5 what you intended to say?
6 MR. KNOOPS: Including military units, paramilitary units.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So apparently you wanted to ask, Mr. Knoops, whether
8 the witness agrees that in the police and military units that it had
9 become customary for a large number of people not belonging to the units
10 that were just mentioned to start wearing red berets. That's what you
11 would like to hear from the witness.
12 MR. KNOOPS: Exactly, Your Honour.
13 Q. And if I may add, if the witness could agree that the red beret
14 in those days was not a symbol for elite unit anymore. Is that correct?
15 MR. WEBER: Objection. It's a compound question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question suggests that the red beret was
17 once a symbol of an elite unit and lost that significance.
18 Now, could we split up the two questions. Was, in the early
19 days, was the red beret a symbol of an elite unit, Mr. Sliskovic?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It is still the symbol of an
21 elite unit.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And did it lose that significance? And if so, when,
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that it has lost that
25 significance. The 72nd and the 63rd Brigades wore red berets. Infantry
1 had green berets. Anti-aircraft units wore black berets. What I'm
2 saying is that not everybody in Serbia
3 red berets.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops, please proceed.
5 MR. KNOOPS:
6 Q. Mr. Witness, do you agree that paramilitary units such as the
7 Wolves from Vucjak, Predrag's unit, Mice, et cetera, were considered to
8 be elite units?
9 A. I suppose that they were perceived as elite units. Wolves from
10 Vucjak were considered an elite unit. But I can't tell you anything
11 about any of the other units that you've mentioned.
12 Q. Would you agree if paramilitary units would start to wear
13 red berets that you would not qualify those units as elite units? Can
14 you agree with that?
15 A. No, as a matter of fact, I said that when I joined the unit there
16 were people there who had already been members of the Red Berets, which
17 means that it was their honour to wear a red beret. It would not have
18 been appropriate or fair towards them if they had been denied that kind
19 of attention.
20 Q. Yes, but you did not -- you weren't part of such an elite unit
21 before you came to this unit, isn't it, especially because you came from
22 the Military Post 1205 where you worked as a logistics employee; is that
24 A. You are right. However, I was not the one who decided on
25 assigning or issuing red berets, and I really don't know why they were
1 issued to us.
2 Q. Thank you. We'll come to that later.
3 Could you please tell the Court what the difference is between
4 the red beret you were just handed and the red beret you apparently
5 received when you served in the 72nd Special Brigade? Could you tell us
6 what the difference is between those two red berets, please?
7 A. As far as I can remember, the manufacturer was different. One
8 set was manufactured by factory Zarko Zrenjanin in Vuca, and I don't know
9 about the other set. In any case, the shade of the red was different.
10 That may have been due to the fact that some were newer than the others,
11 but in any case, they were manufactured by two different factories.
12 Q. Is it correct that the insignia were the same?
13 A. What insignia? In the 72nd Special Brigade, the insignia were
14 different. The latter insignia that I was issued as a member of the
15 anti-terrorist unit of the Serbian MUP was different, of course.
16 Q. So you are saying that there was a difference in colour; is that
18 A. Some berets differed from others. Some were a bit darker, some
19 were a bit lighter, but I suppose that that was down to the supplier. In
20 those units, especially in military units, there was a high level of
21 fluctuation among men.
22 Q. Would you agree that everyone in those days, and I mean then
23 everyone, literally, could buy a red beret for storage; is that correct?
24 A. I suppose that you could buy red berets. I believe that you can
25 still buy a red beret in the same colour, that is available commercially.
1 Q. Thank you. Could you please describe the colour of the red beret
2 of the SDG, as you mentioned that Mr. Legija wore a red beret?
3 A. The Serbian Volunteer Guard did not wear red berets. I saw only
4 Legija and Sarac wearing red berets, and those red berets were more or
5 less the same as mine. The only difference was the trim around the
6 border and the opening, their openings were different. But, in any case,
7 the colour was the same. The colour of the beret was the same as the one
8 that I wore while I was in Western Bosnia.
9 Q. Yeah, you agree with me that you should be a professional to
10 distinguish this band of the beret; is that true? Therefore, for a
11 layman, an ordinary civilian, it was difficult or not possible to
12 distinguish those berets; would you agree with that?
13 A. The colour was the same and within the unit different people wore
14 different berets. Their sizes were different, and it also depended on
15 the supplier. However, as you say, if a layperson looked at any of them,
16 they would all look the same, I suppose.
17 Q. Yes. -
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Knoops --
19 MR. KNOOPS:
20 Q. Including the number of --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would finish this question, be aware
22 that I'm looking at the clock at the same time.
23 MR. KNOOPS: Yes, I know what you mean, Your Honour, sorry.
24 Q. Including the number of air holes, would you agree with that?
25 A. There were air holes on all berets, two on each. There could not
1 have been one.
2 Q. Thank you. My last question is that I suggest to you that the
3 red beret you just were given, was shown to the court, was actually the
4 red beret you were give by the 72nd Special Brigade.
5 A. Was this a question?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sliskovic, what Mr. Knoops says that -- and he
7 wants your comment on that, is that the red beret you just had in your
8 hands was not the red beret you received at the beginning of your
9 training in the JATD, but that it was the one that you received when you
10 joined the 72nd Special Brigade. What is your comment on that
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not correct.
13 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 Mr. Knoops, in the last series of questions, you sometimes didn't
16 just ask for facts but sometimes asked the witness's opinion of what he
17 thought that others might be able to perceive, that is, double opinion
18 and judgement rather than facts. I didn't stop you, although I could
19 have done so. Could we try to focus on facts and not on what I think
20 that the public would be able to observe as far as the difference of one
21 or two little holes in the berets concerned. Of course, we are
22 interested to know whether there are differences, but how it is perceived
23 is another matter.
24 We will adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,
25 Wednesday, the 19th of May, at a quarter past 2.00 in this same
1 Courtroom II.
2 But, Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, the Chamber hasn't given the customary
4 warning to the witness.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are right. I've forgotten to do that.
6 Mr. Sliskovic, we'll resume tomorrow, but I instruct you that you should
7 not speak with anyone about your testimony and not -- it's not only
8 speaking to no one, but not to communicate in whatever way with whomever
9 about the testimony, either testimony already given today or still to be
10 given tomorrow. Is that clear to you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We stand adjourned.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.
14 to be reconvened on the Wednesday, the 19th day.
15 of May, 2010 at 2.15 p.m.