Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5338

 1                           Wednesday, 26 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  This is case number

 8     IT-03-69-T.  The Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             The Chamber apologises first of all for the late start.  I was

11     dealing with a matter which I'd like to briefly discuss with the parties.

12     Next week we are scheduled to sit on Wednesday and Thursday.  The Chamber

13     is exploring the possibilities of sitting on Tuesday and Wednesday

14     instead of Wednesday and Thursday for reasons which are foreign to this

15     case.  It is still to be decided if we would sit on Tuesday, whether that

16     would be morning or afternoon.  The Chamber always tries to schedule the

17     Stanisic/Simatovic case in the afternoons, which was, of course, at the

18     time primarily inspired by creating an opportunity for medical reports to

19     be produced during the morning hours.  That may not be such an urgent

20     reason any more under the present circumstances, and we might further

21     consider that.  But as matters stand now I would just like to know

22     whether it would cause any problem with the Defence teams to sit on

23     Tuesday rather than on Thursday.  And I have to admit we have already

24     sought information from the Prosecution, because the Prosecution of

25     course had an additional problem, that is to secure the presence of the

Page 5339

 1     witness, which is even more important.  SO we checked that with the

 2     Prosecution.  Prosecution has no problems, as I understand, Mr. Groome.

 3             MR. GROOME:  I wouldn't characterise it as no problems,

 4     Your Honours, but they are surmountable problems, and we can have a

 5     witness here on Tuesday.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I wonder whether there's any problem as far as

 7     the Stanisic or the the Simatovic Defence is concerned.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  No problem for us, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No problem, neither morning or afternoon.

10             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] No problem for us either,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much for your co-operative attitude.

13     We'll then further proceed to see whether this can be scheduled.

14             I would like to before we call -- before the next witness will be

15     called, I would like to turn into closed session, or private session, but

16     that's the same in this courtroom.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5340

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Could I seek contact

11     with the representative of the Registry at the other side of the

12     videolink.

13             Can you see us, can you hear us?

14             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, good afternoon, Your Honours.

15     Good afternoon everyone in and around the courtroom.  We are here in the

16     field office.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, in the field office, you can see us and you can

18     hear us apparently.

19             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, we do.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We can also see and hear you you.  Could you tell us

21     who is present in the room of the videolink.

22             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We have two representatives of the

23     Registry and one technician, Your Honours.  And the witness is present as

24     well.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  And I see that the witness is present

Page 5341

 1     already.

 2             Then, witness, can you hear me and can you see me?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

 5     Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the

 6     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  The text is now

 7     handed out to you by the Registrar.  May I invite you to stand and to

 8     make that solemn declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.  Witness, you'll be

12     first examined by Mr. Weber.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.

13             Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

14                           WITNESS:  ANTE MARINOVIC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           [Witness testified via videolink]

17                           Examination by Mr. Weber.

18        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Marinovic.  My name is Adam Weber.  I just

19     wanted to confirm with you if you can see me by the way of videolink.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Could you please introduce yourself to the Trial Chamber.

22        A.   Ante Marinovic.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the microphone be

24     put closer to the witness, please.

25             MR. WEBER:

Page 5342

 1        Q.   Mr. Marinovic, did you provide a statement to an investigator

 2     from the ICTY on the date of 30 September 2000?

 3        A.   I think so.

 4        Q.   Did you review a statement that you provided to an investigator

 5     from the ICTY on the 30th of September, 2000, prior to testifying here

 6     today?

 7        A.   Yes, today.

 8        Q.   Did you provide testimony in the case of Prosecutor versus

 9     Milan Martic on the date of 23 March 2006?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Have you had the opportunity prior to testifying here today to

12     review your prior statement and your testimony from the Martic case in

13     your own language?

14        A.   I have today.

15        Q.   If you were asked the same questions that you were asked during

16     your previous statement and testimony, would you provide the same answers

17     in substance?

18        A.   Well, it depends.  I may have omitted something, forgotten

19     something, but for 80 per cent, I think I would.

20        Q.   Well, are the answers that you provided in your previous

21     statement in previous testimony accurate?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 5325, the

24     2000 ICTY statement, and 65 ter 5324, the previous testimony from the

25     Martic case into evidence.

Page 5343

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 2             Madam Registrar, could you assign numbers, first to the ICTY

 3     statement, second to the Martic transcript.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  65 ter 5235 is now

 5     Exhibit P490.  65 ter 5234 is now Exhibit P491.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P490 and P491 are admitted into evidence.

 7             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders the one

 9     associated exhibit to Exhibit P491.  It is a map which has been listed

10     under 65 ter 5326 with the ERN of 0501-3942.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  Madam Registrar, the map

12     would receive number?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  5326 will be now Exhibit P492.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P492 is admitted into evidence.

15             MR. WEBER:  Pursuant to the Trial Chamber's instructions of the

16     18th of February, 2010, the Prosecution at this time requests leave to

17     present a public summary of the evidence of Ante Marinovic.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, has the witness been informed about the purpose

19     of -- then I'll do that first.

20             Witness, Mr. Weber will read a summary of your testimony, summary

21     of your evidence, that is, what is found in your statement and what is

22     found in the transcript in the Martic case.  This is not the evidence,

23     but if a summary would not be read, the public would not know what your

24     testimony was about, so that's the one and only purpose of reading this

25     summary.  Just wait until it's over and then Mr. Weber may have some

Page 5344

 1     additional questions for you.  Please proceed Mr. Weber.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Ante Marinovic is a Croat male, age 31, at

 3     the time of the events in 1991.  The witness was a reserve police officer

 4     in Benkovac and lived in the village of Bruska, the village of Bruska was

 5     almost exclusively a Croat village.  Mr. Marinovic observed in the months

 6     leading up to the war, that the Serbs from the surrounding villages

 7     received weapons from the JNA.  The first barricades were erected in

 8     February of 1991, and the Croat inhabitants of the village were harassed

 9     at these roadblocks.  In the summer of 1991, military vehicles

10     continually passed through the village, this occurred during the attack

11     on Krusevo.  Every two or three days, the witness observed Serb

12     paramilitaries come to Bruska.  These paramilitaries went to the village

13     square or other places and threatened the Croat inhabitants.  These

14     paramilitaries told the Croat villagers that this was Serb country and

15     that they should leave.

16             The village of Bruska was attacked on the 21 of December, 1991.

17     At around 8.00 in the evening, three men of Martic's police with Krajina

18     milicija insignias on their uniform broke into the home of the witness.

19     The witness; his father, Roko Marinovic; his brother, Dusko Marinovic;

20     and his uncle, Petar Marinovic; along with a Serb friend by the name of

21     Sveto Draca, who had refused to join the milicija, were ordered out of

22     the house and lined up against the wall.  When -- I don't know if the

23     witness said something right now.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I think he said something, but --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Friday.

Page 5345

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's wait until Mr. Weber has finished reading his

 2     summary.  Yes.

 3             MR. WEBER:  When Petar and Sveto tried to run away, they were

 4     shot and killed by the Martic's police.  The witness's father and brother

 5     were shot in the head.  The witness was shot seven times and survived.

 6     He succeeded to flee to relatives he had in Bijeljina.  They took him to

 7     the Benkovac hospital where his wounds were treated before being taken to

 8     the Knin hospital to undergo surgery.

 9             The witness underwent recovery at the Knin hospital where member

10     of Martic's police came and questioned him.  At one point, the witness

11     heard the police officer state "this Ustasha must be slaughtered."

12             The witness provides evidence that besides the four persons he

13     saw killed, Ika Marinovic, Stana Marinovic, Josip Marinovic,

14     Manda Marinovic, Krste Marinovic, and Draginja Marinovic, all relatives

15     of the witness were also killed on the date of 21 December, 1991.

16             The witness provides evidence that after all of the Croat

17     villagers had left Bruska, Captain Dragan came to the village and

18     established a training centre called training centre Alfa in Bruska.

19             That completes the summary of the witness's evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.  Any additional questions for

21     the witness.

22             MR. WEBER:  I do have some questions.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Mr. Marinovic, the Prosecution would like to ask you some

Page 5346

 1     questions regarding events that occurred prior to the date of the 21st of

 2     December, 1991.  On page 2474 of Exhibit P491, you were asked whether you

 3     had seen any posters or anything from the SDS that led you to believe

 4     that the SDS had support in your area.  You answered that there were

 5     posters all over the place.  My question, sir, is could you please tell

 6     us approximately when did you first see these posters in the area of

 7     Bruska?

 8        A.   Well, when the campaign, the election campaign began.

 9        Q.   Approximately when did this election campaign begin?

10        A.   Well, a month before the election in 1991.

11        Q.   Do you recall what month that was?

12        A.   It was May.

13        Q.   What did these posters say on them?

14        A.   There was just a picture of Jovan Raskovic and SDS on them.

15        Q.   On page 2475 of Exhibit P491 you state that Sveto Draca told you

16     that the army was distributing weapons to the local Serbs.  When did this

17     conversation with Sveto Draca occur?

18        A.   Sveto was with us every day.  We grew up together, we went to

19     school together.

20        Q.   Do you recall when it was that Sveto told you that the army was

21     distributing weapons to local Serbs?

22        A.   Immediately after the elections.

23        Q.   Could you please approximate what month that was.

24        A.   May, June, I don't know.  I really can't remember exactly.

25        Q.   In the first paragraph of page 3 of Exhibit P490, you state that:

Page 5347

 1             "There were too many paramilitary units in the area during this

 2     time.  They were with the regular army.  They all wore camouflage

 3     uniforms and most were unshaven, had long hair, and they all had weapons.

 4     You could first see these paramilitaries with the regular army in June,

 5     July, 1991."

 6             My question to you, sir, is what colour camouflage was worn by

 7     these paramilitary groups?

 8        A.   Those camouflage uniforms were greenish yellowish black.  As for

 9     the paramilitaries and those men who came, and when they went against

10     Krusevo, they went together, the paramilitaries and the JNA.  And the

11     latter, the JNA, had olive-drab uniforms.  Actually, they all had

12     olive-drab uniforms usually worn by the JNA.

13        Q.   Did the paramilitary units wear any insignias?

14        A.   The Krajina police or the Krajina milicija.

15        Q.   What type of weapons did these paramilitary units possess?

16        A.   Automatic rifles.

17        Q.   You've mentioned one incident with respect to Krusevo.  Where

18     else would you see the paramilitary units with the army?

19        A.   Around Benkovac.  They were in Benkovac.  You couldn't go to

20     Benkovac without being searched by them.  Some 15 or 20 of them would

21     point their rifles at you.  So what could you do?  Nothing.

22        Q.   On page 2475 of Exhibit P491, you stated that you were not able

23     to travel between Bruska and Benkovac in 1991 and stated that there were

24     barricades when you went to Medvidja and Benkovac.  Who were the people

25     that were standing guard --

Page 5348

 1        A.   That's correct, yes.

 2        Q.   Sir, who were the people that were standing guard at these

 3     barricades?

 4        A.   In the direction of Medvidja, those were the locals of Medvidja.

 5     And those who stood guard around Benkovac, hailed from around Benkovac,

 6     from the neighbouring villages there.

 7        Q.   Were any members of the paramilitary units that you described

 8     present at these barricades?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Were they present at all the barricades, or were they only

11     present at certain individual barricades?

12        A.   It depended on the village.

13        Q.   Where -- were the Krajina milicija that you've described or those

14     individuals wearing those insignias present at barricades?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you see the Krajina milicija present at barricades?

17        A.   Yes.  The last time I went to Benkovac and back.  And that was

18     actually the last time I ever went to Benkovac.

19        Q.   Did you see them present at any other barricades besides the

20     barricades in the area of Benkovac?

21        A.   Didn't go anywhere else.  There was no chance for us to go

22     anywhere else, to go through them.

23        Q.   On page 2512 of Exhibit P491, you stated that:

24             "When people moved out of Bruska, then this Captain Dragan came,

25     and that's where they set up these training grounds, and they were

Page 5349

 1     training their army there."

 2             When did the people you are referring to move out of Bruska?

 3        A.   I went on the 21st of December.  That's when I left.  And they

 4     must have left around the 28th of December.  They were all moved out from

 5     there.  I wasn't there so I'm not able to give you the exact date.  By

 6     then I was already in hospital in Knin.

 7        Q.   These other people who moved out of Bruska, what was their

 8     ethnicity?

 9        A.   Croats.

10        Q.   Were these individuals who later moved out of Bruska civilians or

11     members of any armed forces?

12        A.   Civilians.

13        Q.   On page 2513 of Exhibit P491, you were asked the question:

14             "What was the connection between centre Alfa and Captain Dragan?

15     How did you make this connection?"

16             You answered:

17             "That's what they called it.  Well, no, they -- they set this up.

18     It was called scientific centre Alfa" --

19        A.   That was the Alfa centre, yes.

20        Q.   Sir, thank you.  I will finish your quote.  I will reread your

21     full quote, and then I do have a question for you.

22             Your answer was:  "That's what they called it.  Well, no, they --

23     they set this up.  It was called scientific centre Alfa, I don't know,

24     that's what it was called."  Sir, if I could --

25        A.   Yes, that's where the Special Police officers were trained.  I

Page 5350

 1     saw that on video-clips, but I wasn't there.  I don't know what they did

 2     there.  The only way I can talk about that is to tell you what I saw on

 3     video-clips.  We found some materials there, and we reviewed them.  I

 4     wasn't there while this was going on to be able to tell you what was

 5     going on.

 6        Q.   Sir, that is quite clear from your previous testimony.  I'm going

 7     to finish your statement from the Martic case.  You continue to state:

 8             "Then this Captain Dragan was there, and that's where he trained

 9     soldiers, policemen, whatever he was training.  I don't know, but judging

10     by what we saw, this footage, you can see everything."

11             Sir, my question to you is that, in your previous testimony, you

12     referred to "they" called it centre Alfa, and "they set this up."  Who

13     were you referring to?

14        A.   The Serbs.  The Krajina police.

15        Q.   These Special Police forces that were being trained there, are

16     these the same Krajina milicija that you've previously mentioned here

17     today or a different group of Special Police?

18        A.   Well, you are asking me too much.  I told you what I'd seen.  I

19     don't know where they were from, who they were, where they had come from.

20     I don't know.

21        Q.   Well, you describe seeing footage.  What type of uniforms or

22     insignias were the individuals wearing in this footage?

23        A.   The Special Police of Krajina.

24             MR. WEBER:  No further questions.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

Page 5351

 1             Which Defence team will cross-examine the witness first?

 2             Mr. Bakrac, it will be you.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, it will be me, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Marinovic, you will now be cross-examined by

 5     Mr. Bakrac.  Mr. Bakrac is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Marinovic.

 8        A.   Good afternoon.

 9        Q.   The presiding judge has introduced me to you.  And before I start

10     putting questions to you, I would firstly like to say a few words on

11     behalf of Mr. Simatovic and on behalf of our Defence team and express our

12     condolences for the tragedy that you experienced.  The questions that

13     I'll have for you will not go against what you experienced.  I'm not

14     going to try to of prove that the incident did not happen.  I'll just try

15     and shed light on some things that you have already stated.

16             Can I begin?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Mr. Marinovic, you explained that you had resided in the village

19     of Bruska and that the village had about 400 inhabitants; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You said that out of the 400 inhabitants, there are five Serb

23     houses or households; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Since you spoke about 400 inhabitants, when you say five houses,

Page 5352

 1     are we talking about some 20 people altogether?

 2        A.   It could have been four, three, or five more, but you can easily

 3     say that there were about 20 people living in those houses.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Marinovic, is it correct that in your village

 5     Bruska multiparty elections took place and that there was the local HDZ

 6     aboard?

 7        A.   Could you please repeat your question.

 8        Q.   Is it true that in your village Bruska, there was a local board

 9     of the Croatian Democratic Union, the HDZ?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Mr. Marinovic, did you or any of your family members belong to

12     the HDZ?  Were you members of the HDZ or the local board of the HDZ?

13        A.   No, none of us were, but I did vote for the HDZ.

14        Q.   You said that you had seen posters, my learned friend asked you,

15     but I would like the other side to be heard for the general public.  You

16     said that you heard the SDS posters, but were there also HDZ posters?

17        A.   Of course.  There were both, of course.

18        Q.   Did those posters depicted Franko Tudjman?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Mr. Marinovic, is it correct that already at the time it was

21     known that the HDZ had promised that if they came into power, the Serbs

22     would lose the status of a constituent people in Croatia?

23        A.   I don't know anything about politics.  I do not engage in

24     politics.

25        Q.   Mr. Marinovic, your answers so --

Page 5353

 1        A.   I still continue to give you fair answers.

 2        Q.   I know that you don't engage in politics, but I believe that this

 3     was a notorious fact.  Let me ask you again, did you hear that on

 4     television that there were some disputes about that and that the Serbs

 5     rebelled because of that, because of the announcements that if the HDZ

 6     won in the elections, they would be thrown out of the constitution as the

 7     constituent people?

 8        A.   Why couldn't they be a minority?

 9        Q.   So you are saying that you know that they were supposed to become

10     a minority, and now you are wondering why shouldn't they be a minority,

11     why shouldn't that be the case?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Marinovic.

14             Mr. Marinovic, you said that you were a member of the reserve

15     police from 1990.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Did you become a member of the reserve police immediately after

18     the HDZ won in the elections in your village?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   As a reserve police officer, did you have a uniform?  Did the

21     others have uniforms?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   As the reserve police force and a reserve policeman, did you bear

24     arms?

25        A.   No.

Page 5354

 1        Q.   Mr. Marinovic, do you know that the HDZ armed its members?  I'm

 2     not referring to you personally, but were you familiar with the fact?

 3        A.   Yes, that was known, but we could not obtain weapons at the time.

 4        Q.   As a member of the reserve police, you said that you were

 5     supposed to defend your village as reserve policemen.

 6        A.   Not to defend it, but to protect it.  What were we supposed to

 7     defend it with?

 8        Q.   What was your duty when it came to protecting your village?

 9        A.   If something happened we were there to guard the village, and if

10     something happened we would alert the others to flee.

11        Q.   Did you you report to anybody about what you saw in -- on the

12     ground?

13        A.   No, nobody, just to the others in the village.  Who was I

14     supposed to report to?

15        Q.   Witness, my learned friend asked you earlier today whether you

16     recognised paramilitaries at the barricades.  Just a moment, please, bear

17     with me.  Could you please wait for me to finish my question and then

18     start answering.

19             Did I understand you properly that at the barricades you noticed

20     members of the JNA, members of the police of Krajina, and the

21     paramilitaries?  Or when you say paramilitaries, did you only mean

22     members of the Krajina police?

23        A.   Yes, that's what I meant.  The Krajina police who were actually

24     paramilitaries.

25        Q.   So what you are saying is that they were members of JNA and

Page 5355

 1     members of the Krajina police, and the latter were, for you,

 2     paramilitaries; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, tell me please, when we are talking about the barricades,

 5     could you give us the time-frame?

 6        A.   At the beginning of August 1991.  Or before August, thereabouts.

 7        Q.   Were the barricades put up in front of the entrances into Serb

 8     villages or villages with a majority Serbian population?

 9        A.   It was all one road.

10        Q.   Yes.  I agreed with you that there was a barricade, but please

11     tell me whether the barricades were also put up in front of the villages

12     or settlements with predominantly Serbian population.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You said that there were attacks on Krusevo.  Did you

15     ever notice any attack on any other village in your environment?

16        A.   I could not notice any because all the villages were at a

17     distance, and I saw the attack on Krusevo when they were pounding the

18     village from Medvidja, and I saw lorries and tanks moving in from

19     Benkovac against Krusevo.

20        Q.   Could you please tell us whether there is a special reason why of

21     all Croatian villages, the JNA would attack only Krusevo and nothing

22     else, no others?

23        A.   But it was not only Krusevo.  There were other villages from

24     Benkovac, Jesenice, Lepure, Luksic, Bunic, but I could not see all those

25     village, they were at a distance from me.

Page 5356

 1        Q.   And do you know that in Krusevo there was an armed HDZ unit

 2     deployed there or, rather, members of the Croatian police?

 3        A.   They defended their own state.

 4        Q.   Sir, I'm not discussing that with you.  That is your point of

 5     view, which I respect and which I value.  My question was whether there

 6     were members of the HDZ and ZNG in Krusevo and in all those places where

 7     fighting took place.

 8        A.   There was the Croatian police there.

 9        Q.   Did they call themselves the Zengas ZNGs?

10        A.   I did not hear that question.

11        Q.   Did they call themselves the national guards?

12        A.   I did not hear that I was not close to there.  I couldn't hear

13     that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Marinovic, please make a little pause after the

15     question has been put to you and slow down your speed of speech, because

16     if you want us to hear your testimony, you should speak at a speed which

17     can be followed by our interpreters.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Marinovic, I would like to repeat that I don't intend to

21     discuss things with you.  I'm just trying to establish what the truth is,

22     and so far my impression has been that you are fully prepared to tell the

23     truth.  That's why I would like to clarify some things.  There's no need

24     for you to provide hasty answers or argue with me.

25             Mr. Marinovic, when you mentioned the police of Krajina at the

Page 5357

 1     barricades, did you mean local Serbs?

 2        A.   Ninety per cent.

 3        Q.   And when you say 90 per cent, you are not sure who the other

 4     10 per cent were because you could not know all of them by name, could

 5     you?

 6        A.   How was I supposed to know all of them?  I didn't know all of

 7     them, of course.  But I knew those who lived around me, I knew them, and

 8     I used to see them.

 9        Q.   Mr. Marinovic, on the 21st of December when the unfortunate

10     incidents struck your family, and this is an understatement because it

11     was a tragedy, there was a Serb with you?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Was he wearing a uniform?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Is it true that when you provided your statement in Zadar that

16     you stated that he had worn an olive-drab uniform on that occasion?

17        A.   No, that's not true.  He did not wear a uniform.  No.  That must

18     be a mistake.

19        Q.   Very well.  Could you please tell us what was that Serb

20     gentleman's occupation?

21        A.   He was a postman.

22        Q.   That Serb when the three other men entered, and you say that they

23     sported the insignia of the police of Krajina on their sleeves, did he

24     try to tell them that he was a Serb, that they should not shoot at him,

25     or anything to that effect?

Page 5358

 1        A.   There was no time.  He did not have the time to say any of that.

 2        Q.   Witness, did you recognise any of the three?

 3        A.   One of them.  One of them I knew because we used to play football

 4     in the past.  I did [as interpreted] know his first and last name, but I

 5     did see him at one of these matches we had in Medvidja.

 6        Q.   So this one person, to the best of your knowledge, was a person

 7     who was from Medvidja, a village close to Bruska?

 8        A.   No, he was not from Medvidja.  I think he was from Bilisane.

 9        Q.   And Lisane is another village close to Bruska; correct?

10        A.   Bilisane.

11        Q.   I apologise.  I didn't hear you correctly.  So Bilisane is

12     another local place near Bruska; correct?

13        A.   Well, it is some 10 kilometres away from Bruska.

14        Q.   Did you learn subsequently that these two other individuals were

15     local Serbs, perhaps from the same village as the one that you

16     recognised?

17        A.   No, some people say that they were from that village, some say he

18     wasn't, but I didn't recognise them.

19        Q.   Yes, but subsequently you heard from some other people that these

20     two were also from Bilisane?

21        A.   Well, what somebody else said, and you know -- people who --

22     hearsay and gossip, I don't know.  But I just saw this one person that I

23     recognised.  I did not know these other two people.

24        Q.   Yes, I understood you clearly, but let us repeat for the

25     transcript.  You subsequently heard that these two men, these two other

Page 5359

 1     men were also from Bilisane.

 2        A.   I never said that, nor did I ever hear that.  I never said or

 3     heard anything, because I cannot say anything about things I did not see,

 4     and I won't say anything that I myself did not see or hear.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Now, sir, when members of what you call the

 6     paramilitaries came to your village before this day, before the 21st of

 7     December, and harassed you by saying things like, This is Serbia, you

 8     must leave, would you agree that these were people from Medvidja, this

 9     was a Serbian village near Bruska?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             Sir, when this tragedy occurred, other than these three men, did

13     you see any other soldiers in Bruska on the 21st of December?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Except for the members of your family that you listed here, did

16     you hear of anyone else in Bruska being killed on that 21st of December?

17        A.   No, no one other than us.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, you explained who was in the house sitting

19     and playing cards with you.  Were there any children in the house

20     sleeping?

21        A.   Yes, my late brother's children were there.

22        Q.   Did anyone harass them or interfere with them in any way?

23        A.   No, they were upstairs.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, when you managed to pull out, wounded as you

25     were, I believe that you managed to get to the village of

Page 5360

 1     Kalanjevo Draga; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, Kalanjevo Draga.

 3        Q.   Was that a Serb village?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Whom did you go to see in that Serbian village Kalanjevo Draga?

 6        A.   To Mirko Kaleja's [phoen] house.

 7        Q.   Is he a relative of yours?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Is he a Serb?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did he call the emergency service?  And if so, was there an

12     ambulance sent, and from where?

13        A.   Well, he didn't.  It was his wife who called the emergency

14     service.

15        Q.   All right.  It was his wife.  Where did the ambulance come from?

16        A.   I don't know, but they came about 20 minutes later, or 30 minutes

17     at the most.  I don't know where they had come from.

18        Q.   Where did the ambulance take you?

19        A.   To Benkovac.

20        Q.   Was Benkovac a Serb place?

21        A.   Well, no, it wasn't a Serb place.

22        Q.   How many Serb -- or, rather, was the majority of the population

23     in Benkovac Serbian?

24        A.   Well, it was about 50/50.

25        Q.   Was the Serbian party in power at the time in Benkovac?

Page 5361

 1        A.   Yes, because the army armed them and then they chased Croats from

 2     the -- they expelled Croats from the surrounding villages away.

 3        Q.   Were there Serbs in uniform in the ambulance who took you then to

 4     Benkovac to the hospital?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, the Chamber is wondering the relevance

 7     of who exactly called the ambulance and whether Benkovac was a Serb city

 8     or Serb village or not, because the charges are not that every Serb is

 9     wrong-doing or that people in Benkovac or ambulance drivers are doing

10     wrong things, so, therefore, it's -- the Chamber doesn't understand what

11     the relevance of most of your last series of questions would have been.

12     It is already clear --

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll be very frank.  I

14     am not going into any analysis now, nor is this my final brief, but I'm

15     just trying to point out that this may have been a fluke, an incident

16     that just happened unrelated to anything else.  And then I assume that I

17     will finish with my cross-examination with -- by the end of this session.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is to be established through questions

19     like, Did the husband or the wife call the ambulance?  That's -- well, if

20     I wanted to establish that it was just an incident, nothing else, then I

21     would -- but I leave it to you at this very moment.  But just for you to

22     be aware --

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me, I

24     think it is relevant because if men wearing a military uniform take you

25     to a hospital, then I assume that this cannot be treated as part of a

Page 5362

 1     plan, but rather -- well, I won't go into this any further.  If you allow

 2     me another 10 minutes, I will complete my cross-examination.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Sir, were you sent from Benkovac to Knin to the hospital to

 6     undergo surgery?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Was Knin, too, under Serb control at the time?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You said that a member of the Serbian milicija came to the

11     hospital.  From your statements it does not come out clearly.  Did he

12     question you, or did he just say, This Ustasha is to be liquidated?

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said that, and Dr. Ignjatovic

15     was there, and he said, Sir, you just leave this room because this is --

16     I am the boss here and not you.  And if I were to see that doctor again,

17     I would roast a lamb in His Honour.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   So he did not question you in any ways, he just said what he

20     said.  And Dr. Ignjatovic was a Serb then threw him out of the hospital.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Witness, once you recovered did you go to Knin which was under

23     Serb control to the bus station, get on a bus, and go to Benkovac by bus?

24        A.   No, I went to Vode Polace to see my late brother's wife, that's

25     where her parents were.

Page 5363

 1        Q.   I apologise, it is my error.  So it wasn't Benkovac, it was

 2     Vode Polje.  But you just went to the bus station there, got on a bus,

 3     and went to Vode Polje; correct?

 4        A.   Well, I did not get on a bus in Vode Polace.

 5        Q.   How did you go there?

 6        A.   By bus.

 7        Q.   Well, I didn't understand you then.  Did you say you didn't get

 8     on a bus, but you just went by bus?

 9        A.   Well, that's a different question.

10        Q.   And then when you reached Dobro Polje were you driven by car by

11     an inspector who was a member of the police of Serbian Krajina?  Was he

12     an inspector, what was his name, and where did he take you from and where

13     to?

14        A.   He took me from Benkovac to my home.

15        Q.   To Bruska?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Who took you from Benkovac to Bruska?

18        A.   I believe that his name was Milan, but I can't remember his

19     family name.

20             MR. WEBER:  If we could just have a clarification in here.  I

21     didn't exactly hear the translation.  I don't know if Mr. Bakrac referred

22     to policija or milicija in his original question at 26/4.  But if we

23     could be clear in that distinction when discussing this.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, could you provide the relevant

25     clarification including what you said in your question.

Page 5364

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Witness, was the person who took you in his car from Benkovac to

 3     your house a member of the Krajina milicija?

 4        A.   He was an inspector.  I believe his name was Milan Puza or

 5     something like that.  I may have forgotten, but I think it could easily

 6     have been Milan Puza.

 7        Q.   When you say inspector, where was he an inspector and what

 8     institution?

 9        A.   In Benkovac.

10        Q.   He was an inspector in Benkovac, I don't want to lead you, but I

11     just want to ask you, was he an inspector of the Krajina milicija?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   At the time when this milicija Krajina inspector took you in his

14     car from Benkovac to Bruska to your home, was Milan Martic at the time

15     the minister the interior of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you, witness, and I will take advantage of the five minutes

18     that we have left before the break to ask you something about the science

19     centre Alfa.  You said quite honestly that you actually saw this after

20     you saw the video-tapes that you had found.  Now, I would like to put it

21     to you that up until 1993 there was no science centre there at all.  Do

22     you agree with that?

23        A.   No, I don't, because they came then.

24        Q.   Very well, tell us then, when you say science centre and you saw

25     these video-clip, what could you see in the video-clip?  What was being

Page 5365

 1     done at that centre?

 2        A.   Well, training for the army, Special Police.

 3        Q.   And what did you see?  What kind of training was that?

 4        A.   Well, it was training.  What could training consist of but

 5     training?

 6        Q.   So you served in the Yugoslav People's Army; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Was that the type of training similar to what you had gone

 9     through when you served in the Yugoslav People's Army?

10        A.   No, no.

11        Q.   Well, what was the difference?

12        A.   Well, we didn't shoot.  I was in artillery while I was in the

13     army, whereas these people, they underwent training, they had rifles

14     shooting.  I could see all of that.  They came by helicopter.

15        Q.   Witness, you are now telling us something about your own

16     training, but was it while you were --

17        A.   No, no, no, no.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Wait, Mr. Marinovic, until the question has been

19     phrased, then take a little break, then answer the question.  And

20     Mr. Bakrac is also invited to make a little break after you've answered

21     the question.  Please proceed.  Wait until the question has been

22     finished, Mr. Marinovic.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Marinovic, I am afraid we did not understand each other.  I

25     may have been unclear, and I apologise.

Page 5366

 1             Now, you were telling us about your training in the JNA in a

 2     special branch.  Now, I am asking you about the JNA infantry.  Did they

 3     also undergo training and rifle shooting and so on?

 4        A.   Well, I wasn't in infantry so I don't know.

 5        Q.   Very well, Mr. Marinovic, if you don't know, you don't.  That's

 6     quite all right.

 7             Could you now just tell us something about the video-clips.  Did

 8     you see this video-clip in Bruska, the people in Bruska, or did you see

 9     it on TV?  Was it broadcast by the Croatian television after

10     Operation Storm?

11        A.   No, it wasn't broadcast by the Croatian television.  We found

12     this at the centre, and we watched the video-clip ourselves.

13        Q.   When you say we found this, Mr. Marinovic, were you a member of

14     the Croatian army, and did you participate in Operation Storm?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Very well.  But if I understood you correctly, the video-tapes

17     were found when the Croatian army liberated Bruska following

18     Operation Storm; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And they did not seize those tapes but, rather, they let the

21     local people like you take those video-tapes and then watch them;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Marinovic.  Thank you for your answers.  I have no

25     further questions, Your Honours.  And thank you for the time that you've

Page 5367

 1     allotted me.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.  Is there any need for

 3     re-examination.

 4             MR. WEBER:  One question.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Sorry, Mr. -- I was informed that you would have no

 6     questions for the witness, but I should have asked you in court,

 7     Mr. Jordash.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  May I ask two questions, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course, you are fully entitled to

10     cross-examine the witness.  It was mainly on the basis of this

11     understanding that I didn't address you.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Marinovic, you will now be cross-examined by

14     Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

16        Q.   Good afternoon.  Can you hear me?

17             Good afternoon.  Can you hear me?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, can you hear Mr. Jordash?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             MR. JORDASH:

21        Q.   I've just got two --

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   -- or three questions.

24             In Exhibit P491, your previous testimony, page 2513, with

25     reference to the scientific centre Alfa, at line 12 and 13 you are

Page 5368

 1     commenting on who or what is being trained by Captain Dragan, and you

 2     state:

 3             "Then this Captain Dragan was there, and that's where he trained

 4     soldiers, policemen, whatever he was training, I don't know."

 5             Today when commenting on the training, you have focused and

 6     labelled the training as training of Krajina police.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, page 13 of the transcript.

 8        Q.   So at the time of your previous testimony, you were stating that

 9     you did not know who or what was being trained, and now you say Krajina

10     police.

11             MR. WEBER:  Objection, that is a misstatement of the testimony.

12     I believe he did say that they were policemen.  It was not further

13     explored at the time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's any challenge to a quote, could you

15     literally ...

16             MR. JORDASH:  I did read the quote precisely from the transcript,

17     page 2513, where the witness said:

18             "That's where he trained soldiers, policemen, whatever he was

19     training, I don't know."

20             MR. WEBER:  But then the following question, I believe, stated it

21     differently than that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But, Mr. Jordash is free to -- if you think

23     that the other part is relevant and it should be put to the witness, you

24     can do it in re-examination, Mr. Weber.  And at the same time Mr. Jordash

25     is aware that it doesn't bring him very much to be incomplete if there's

Page 5369

 1     a risk that the next lines are considered to be relevant.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, may I inquire from the Prosecution,

 3     because I certainly don't want to be fair, but I cannot see the context

 4     that my learned friend wants me to put.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but then we should first ask the witness to

 6     take off his earphones.

 7             Mr. Marinovic, could you take off your earphones for a second.

 8     Mr. Weber, is any chance that the witness would understand or speak

 9     English?

10             MR. WEBER:  I do not believe so.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. WEBER:  Just to clarify, in the previous testimony there were

13     follow-up questions that were being asked to the witness by the

14     Trial Chamber.  The witness did indicate that there were policemen, and

15     it wasn't further explored.  So to state that the witness didn't ask

16     this, I believe is misleading.  The witness did indicate that there were

17     policemen.  I think a fair question might be -- would be, You didn't --

18     you were not asked or you did not mention that these were Krajina police

19     at that time.  The way it was phrased to the witness has the inference

20     that he intentionally did not provide that information or did not know it

21     at that time.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Could my learned friend indicate which part of the

23     transcript he is referring to, so I may just find it and not mislead, if

24     I am misleading, which I don't, at the moment, accept.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Are we talking -- are we -- let me just check.

Page 5370

 1             MR. WEBER:  I believe it is -- the question that counsel is

 2     referring to -- and I'm sorry if I misunderstood this.  It was follow-up

 3     questions by Mr. Black that were precipitated by Chamber questions.

 4     Point just being, that the witness was asked a brief question about this,

 5     and he did say policemen.  There was no exploring who the policemen was

 6     that he was referring to at the time.  As consistent with the 92 ter

 7     practice, Prosecution asked further explanation of the evidence he

 8     provided.  I believe counsel's reference to this here today is misleading

 9     because he is inferring that the witness didn't provide such information

10     or didn't know that information at that time in 2003.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Well, Your Honours, my learned friend cannot point

12     to a part of the transcript which I ought to be putting to the witness.

13             MR. WEBER:  It's the same part that was referred to.  I'm just

14     asking that it be accurately -- the follow-up question.  The part put to

15     him was perfectly fine.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Well, Mr. Black in the transcript says, Thanks very

17     much.  No further questions.  And the -- I really do not see what my

18     learned friend is referring to.  I'm referring to the witness saying, I

19     don't know.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's get -- what page exactly are we talking

21     about?

22             MR. JORDASH:  I'm looking at 2513, Your Honour.  I'm not sure

23     what my learned friend is looking at.

24             MR. WEBER:  I'm looking at the exact same section; however, on

25     page 30, lines 22 to 24, the follow-up question was:

Page 5371

 1             "So at the time of your previous testimony" --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But let me just, am I right that you are referring

 3     to the evidence the witness gave today in this case; and you are

 4     referring to the evidence the witness gave in the Martic case?

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I'm referring to two.  I'm referring to the

 6     transcript where the witness clearly says, I don't know.  And then to the

 7     evidence today where the witness is more specific.  There may not be an

 8     inconsistency, but the witness ought without, in our submission, my

 9     learned friend jumping up, be given a chance to explain that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that -- one second.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, the objection is denied.  Mr. Jordash can

13     proceed as he did.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'll be very brief --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's first -- oh, yes, he has his earphones

18     on again.  Yes.

19             MR. JORDASH:

20        Q.   Do you want me to read that section of the transcript from your

21     previous testimony again so that you understand what I'm asking you and

22     so that I don't in any way mislead you.

23             When you were asked about the scientific centre Alfa and who was

24     there, you answered line 12, page 2513:

25             "Then this Captain Dragan was there, and that's where he trained

Page 5372

 1     soldiers, policemen, whatever he was training, I don't know."

 2             And today you were being specific and said that it was the

 3     Krajina police who were being trained.  Could you explain why it was in

 4     the transcript in your previous testimony you said, I don't know, and

 5     today where you are specific and focused on Krajina police?

 6        A.   I am just saying things that I saw myself and nothing else.  How

 7     would I know whom they were training?  Whether it was the police or

 8     milicija or the army, whoever, how would I know that?

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness, and I've got nothing further except to

10     express my client's sympathy for your tragic experience.  Thank you very

11     much.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.  We would under normal

13     circumstances take a break now, but how much -- only a few questions.

14     Then I suggest that we try to conclude the evidence of this witness.

15             Mr. Weber

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Weber:

17        Q.   Mr. Marinovic, can you hear me?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Today on page 19, line 22, you stated that approximately

20     90 per cent of the Special Police of the Krajina were local Serbs.  Could

21     you please tell us where the other 10 per cent came from?

22        A.   Well, probably from Serbia.

23        Q.   Were you able to hear these other individuals who you believe

24     were from Serbia speak?

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a leading

Page 5373

 1     question.  He should rephrase the question to read, how do you know that

 2     they had come from Serbia?

 3             MR. WEBER:  I believe the question was not leading.  I was trying

 4     to be efficient with it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, the proper phrasing of the question would

 6     have been, Were you able to hear these other individuals who you believed

 7     were probably from Serbia?  That would be the appropriate way of putting

 8     that question.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And if you want to establish, of course, that what

11     he believed probably to be the case, then of course, it would be useful

12     to lay a foundation for that.

13             MR. WEBER:  Of course.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. WEBER:

16        Q.   Sir, were you able to hear these other individuals who you

17     believed were from Serbia speak?

18        A.   No, I wasn't close to them.  I never got close enough.

19        Q.   What is the reason that you believe that these approximately

20     10 per cent of the other individuals from the Special Police of the

21     Krajina came from Serbia?

22        A.   Because there was some Arkan person there, and he brought these

23     people over.

24        Q.   When did this occur?

25        A.   Well, at the very start he brought -- this Arkan person, he

Page 5374

 1     brought them from Serbia.  He was murdered in the meantime, I think saw

 2     that on TV or in the media.  Whether he is alive or not alive, I don't

 3     know, but him.

 4        Q.   Could you please give us an approximate date when you believe

 5     that this Arkan person brought over people that became members of the

 6     Special Policija of the Krajina from Serbia?

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, well, again my learned

 8     colleague is putting words into the witness's mouth.  The witness did not

 9     say that these Arkan's Men later on became members of the Special Police.

10     He only spoke about the barricades, the whole story, this exchange is

11     about barricades, and the 10 per cent on the barricades.  So I would

12     really appreciate it if the witness -- if the Prosecution refrained from

13     asking this type of question in redirect.  This is not even proper for

14     examination-in-chief.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, I'll invite Mr. Weber to rephrase his

16     question.  At the same time, if you just object to the question, there's

17     no need to elaborate on how inappropriate it is to put certain questions

18     and whether it is in chief or not.  Just object to the question on

19     technical grounds, and then we'll decide on the matter.

20             Mr. Weber.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the question was directly phrased from

22     the three previous answers.  I'll restate it.

23        Q.   Could you please give us an approximate date when you believe

24     that this Arkan person brought over people that you have stated became

25     members of the Special Police of the Krajina?

Page 5375

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection.  Could

 2     Mr. Weber please point to the line where he said that these people who

 3     had been brought by Arkan later on became members of the Special Police

 4     in Krajina.  Could he please point to that part of the testimony, and if

 5     I made an error, I apologise.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:  He is testifying to page 36, line 2 through 6, that

 8     because this Arkan person brought these people over from Serbia.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

10             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, at the end of the day, I'm just trying

11     to ask a simple date, approximately when this occurred that Arkan brought

12     these people.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The people who turned out then because whether they

14     then became members of the Special Police or whether they were already,

15     for example, it's not literally taken from the testimony, so you

16     rephrased it slightly.  But if you would be happy to ask for a date,

17     please, I'll not stop you.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Sir, I'm just asking you of the approximate date in which you

20     believe Arkan brought these people over.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to object.  The witness hasn't said Arkan

22     brought the people over.  He said "this Arkan person."  We don't quite

23     know what that means, but it's certainly quite different possibly to

24     Arkan.

25             MR. WEBER:  I believe we are just playing with semantics here.

Page 5376

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, Mr. Jordash is right.  If you --

 2             Witness Marinovic, you told us about people you believed came

 3     from Serbia, whether you could speak to them, and then you were asked

 4     what the reason was that you believed that these approximately

 5     10 per cent of the other individuals from the Special Police of the

 6     Krajina came from Serbia, and you said, Because there was some Arkan

 7     person there, and he brought these people over.  Now, Mr. Weber would

 8     like to put a question to you in relation to those persons having been

 9     brought over.

10             Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Approximately when were these people brought over?

13        A.   At the very beginning of the war.

14        Q.   Approximately when are you referring to?  If you could please

15     give an approximate month and year.

16        A.   In April 1991, I believe that's when it was.

17             MR. WEBER:  Nothing further.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Bakrac, any further questions?

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I know it's time for

21     the break.  I just have two quick questions.

22                           Further cross-examination Mr. Bakrac:

23        Q.   Witness, could you please tell us, when did you hear about this

24     Arkan person for the first time?

25        A.   Well, for the first time I heard about him when he was captured

Page 5377

 1     on Dinara near Knin.  And when there was an exchange where he was

 2     exchanged, he was captured by the Croatian police, he had weapons with

 3     him.

 4        Q.   And you saw this shown on Croatian television?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, and he was exchanged.

 6        Q.   And my last question is, do you allow that it is possible --

 7     because you said that you did not hear these 10 per cent of the people on

 8     the barricades, you did not hear them speak.  Do you allow the

 9     possibility that those 10 per cent of the members were local Serbs that

10     you did not know, because I assume that you did not know every single

11     person from your area?

12        A.   Of course I didn't know everyone.  How would I know who came from

13     where?

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no

15     further questions.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you Mr. Bakrac.  Mr. Jordash.

17             MR. JORDASH:  May I just ask a follow-up, please.

18                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, could I just ask you this, you spoke about some

20     Arkan person and people being brought over.  Was this a rumour that you

21     heard?

22        A.   Well, yes, yes.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Thank you, very much.  Nothing further,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

Page 5378

 1             Mr. Marinovic, this concludes your evidence.  I would like to

 2     thank you very much for coming to the video location and for having

 3     answered the questions that were put to you by the parties, and -

 4     although very limited by the Bench - I wish you a safe return home again.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then this also concludes the videolink.  We will

 7     take a break.

 8             After the break I'll first deliver a decision which is relevant

 9     for the next witness to be called.  I might have one or two observations.

10     It will altogether not take more than seven to eight minutes, and then

11     we'll start with the next witness.  We'll resume at 20 minutes past 4.00.

12                           [Witness's evidence via videolink concluded]

13                           --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 4.27 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  A few matters in relation to the testimony we've

16     just heard.

17             Mr. Bakrac, you asked the witness whether the witness had said in

18     the Zadar statement that Sveto or the postman, or whatever you want to

19     call him, did wear a uniform.  The witness said, No, that's not what I

20     said.  And then you just continued.  Now, either there is a reason why

21     you think that the statement is not correctly put on paper and then you

22     should pursue the matter, or there's no reason whatsoever, but then you

23     should refrain from asking such a question.  Because I didn't find

24     anything about wearing a uniform in the Zadar statement of the witness.

25     It may be that you have mixed it up with another witness who said

Page 5379

 1     something about a uniform.  But -- Mr. Petrovic.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The accused are not receiving the

 3     interpretation.  I apologise.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you now receive my words interpretation?  I

 5     just made an observation about the technical part of the

 6     cross-examination of the previous witness.

 7             Mr. Bakrac, I didn't find anything, so therefore either there is

 8     some real issue, then explore it, or leave it.  That's clear?  Then

 9     another matter that struck the Chamber -- yes, Mr. --

10             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I can't find

11     that part in his previous testimony.  He was presented as having stated

12     that Sveto did have a uniform and then at that trial he was not sure

13     whether he did or did not have a uniform.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you referred to the Zadar statement.  You

15     asked him about his statement.  You didn't ask anything about the

16     transcript from what I remember.  You asked, Did you say that in the

17     Zadar statement?  The witness said, No.  Where it was unclear whether he

18     denied that it was true or whether he denied that he had said it, that

19     has not even been clarified, and then you moved on.  So, therefore, real

20     issues, please explore them.  It will assist the Chamber, but let's try

21     to find them.

22             There is another matter, Mr. Bakrac, but that's -- perhaps I

23     should -- or perhaps address --

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  I may

25     not have been clear in my he question.  That's why the answer wasn't

Page 5380

 1     clear.  I did not dwell too much upon it because I did not think it was

 2     at all relevant after all.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you should have refrained from it entirely.

 4             There's another matter.  We spent yesterday quite some time on

 5     the agreed facts.  Mr. Petrovic, you'll certainly remember that I --

 6     well, I won't say I had to force you into that, but at least to encourage

 7     you very much to pay serious attention to that.  Now, in relation to

 8     that, today we heard from Mr. Bakrac that the event as such in Bruska was

 9     not challenged.  Agreed fact A(I), SAO Krajina, and the number 4, reads:

10             "On the 21st of December, 1991, ten civilians, including nine

11     Croats, were intentionally killed in the village of Bruska and the hamlet

12     of Marinovic.  The names of victims that were identified are contained in

13     annex A, part E.  Now, in that part we find the names of the victims.

14     The Chamber has great difficulties in understanding why you could not

15     agree on this where at the same time when the witness is called you do

16     not challenge it in any of the relevant parts.  I mean, the date has not

17     been challenged; that there were ten civilians, apart from this one

18     question, did he wear a uniform, but you considered it not to be very

19     relevant; including nine Croats, that was already clear for the

20     statement, but you sought it to be confirmed, don't ask me why; but that

21     there was one Serb was already clear from the statement; including nine

22     Croats, were intentionally killed, that has not been challenged; in the

23     village of Bruska in the hamlet of Marinovic, which has not been

24     challenged; the names of the victims were not in any way challenged.  So

25     the only thing that then remains is their years of birth, but even there

Page 5381

 1     you did not ask one question about it.  So I really -- it is said that

 2     you need an enormous amount of time; whereas, apparently preparing for

 3     these witnesses you look at it, and you do not challenge it.  So why then

 4     not agree on it?

 5             Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you know that my

 7     colleague Mr. Petrovic and I are in a very dire position when it comes to

 8     the list of adjudicated facts.  We would like to look at the whole list

 9     and be able to respond to the whole list.  We can respond to individual

10     incidents like the one in Bruska, for example, but that would be from

11     time to time, every now and then.  We've been given a dead-line, and we

12     will make sure to investigate everything in order to be sure that things

13     did happen.  The incident in Bruska is just one of the incidents, or,

14     rather, one of the events involving casualties, and that's one of those

15     that we do not dispute.  But we did not want to respond just to one or

16     two events and leave the others until later.  We wanted to look at the

17     whole list and then respond to the whole list.

18             You gave us a dead-line yesterday.  We will try and respect it,

19     but please bear in mind that we got involved in the case when we did.

20     There are many other things that we are trying to do at the same time,

21     and, therefore, we are begging your indulgence and understanding.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's on record.  I just wanted to let you

23     know that you also, of course, could have informed the Prosecution prior

24     to presenting this witness that there was no dispute about this and this

25     and this and this, and even if that would not have been a final response

Page 5382

 1     to the proposal for adjudicated facts.

 2             I would like to read a decision relevant for the witness to come.

 3     And I already informed the booth that there are slight changes compared

 4     to the written version, specifically in the reference to another case.

 5             This is the Chamber's decision on the Prosecution's motion for

 6     the augmentation of protective measures for witness JF-035.  In its

 7     motion filed the 7th of May, 2010, the Prosecution requested the Chamber

 8     to augment the protective measures currently in place for witness JF-035

 9     and to allow his testimony to be given entirely in closed session.

10     Witness JF-035 was previously granted protective measures in another case

11     before this Tribunal.

12             On the 13th of May, 2010, the Prosecution indicated to the

13     Chamber through an informal communication that witness JF-035 is very

14     anxious about his scheduled testimony and that knowing the Chamber's

15     decision would set his mind at ease.  On the same day, the Chamber asked

16     the Stanisic Defence and the Simatovic Defence in court to file any

17     responses to the Prosecution's motions by the close of business on the

18     17th of May, thus shortening the time-period for responses pursuant to

19     Rule 126 bis of the rules.  And this can be found at transcript

20     pages 4949 and 4950.

21             On the 14th of May, 2010, both Defence teams informed the Chamber

22     through an informal communication that they did not wish to file any

23     responses to the motion.  On the 18th of May, 2010, the Chamber informed

24     the parties, again through an informal communication, that it had decided

25     to grant the Prosecution's motion and that this decision would be put on

Page 5383

 1     the record at a later stage.

 2             In its motion, the Prosecution submits that witness JF-035 has

 3     particularly serious security concerns and that, in spite of the

 4     protective measures granted in the other case, witness JF-035 and his

 5     family were subject to numerous death threats directly connected with his

 6     testimony in that case.  The Prosecution submits, therefore, that it is

 7     apparent that the protective measures granted to witness JF-035 in the

 8     other case before the Tribunal were insufficient to protect his identity.

 9             Pursuant to Rule 75(I) of the rules.  The Chamber has consulted

10     with those judges who initially granted the protective measures to

11     witness JF-035 and who remain judges of the Tribunal.  Further, pursuant

12     to Rule 75(J) of the rules, the Chamber has made inquiries with the

13     Victims and Witness Section and can confirm that witness JF-035 fully

14     consents to the augmented protective measure of closed session.  The

15     requirements of Rule 75(I) and (J) of the rules are therefore fulfilled.

16             Having considered the threats received by witness JF-035

17     following his testimony in the other case before this Tribunal, the

18     Chamber finds that the protective measures granted at that time were

19     insufficient and that the only effective way to protect his identity is

20     to hear his testimony in closed session.

21             For the foregoing reasons, pursuant to Rule 75 of the Rules, the

22     Chamber grants the Prosecution's motion and orders that witness JF-035

23     give his testimony in closed session.  And this concludes the Chamber's

24     decision.

25             We turn into closed session.

Page 5384

 1                           [Closed session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5385











11 Pages 5385-5423 redacted. Closed session.















Page 5424

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, you would -- yes.  Thank you, we

21     are back in open session.

22             I understand there was something you would like to put on the

23     record, please do to.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would like to make a

25     correction for the record.  Exhibit P490 is 65 ter 5325, while

Page 5425

 1     Exhibit P491 is 65 ter 5324.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for this correction.  We adjourn for the

 3     day, and we resume tomorrow, Thursday the 27th of May, quarter past 2.00

 4     in Courtroom II.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.

 6                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the day of 27th day

 7                           of May, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.