Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5961

 1                           Monday, 28 June 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.  Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  This is case

 8     IT-03-69-T.  The Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             A few procedural matters.  First of all, the Chamber will still

11     have to decide on the 92 ter motion in relation to Witness JF-034 which

12     is the witness who will testify today.  Mr. Weber, no protective

13     measures; is that correctly understood?

14             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So, Mr. Bogunovic, we'll do that in the usual way.

16     If there is anything the parties would want to add in addition to what

17     their response was on the July 2007, we'd like to hear, otherwise we'll

18     decide.

19             MR. JORDASH:  No, thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Same for you, Mr. Bakrac.

21             Then the second issue very briefly.

22             On the 10th of June, the Stanisic Defence has submitted a request

23     for certain questions to be put to Dr. Eekhof.  On the 24th of June, the

24     Prosecution has filed its response and apparently have no objections

25     against these questions to be put to Dr. Eekhof.  The Chamber grants the

Page 5962

 1     request and invites Dr. Eekhof to file his answers to these questions in

 2     a week, and the Registrar is requested, first of all, to relay the

 3     questions put by the Stanisic Defence to Dr. Eekhof, and also inform him

 4     that the Chamber would very much like to receive responses to those

 5     questions within a week from now.

 6             Next brief matter, the Chamber would invite the parties to make

 7     submissions, at least if they wish to do so, with regard to increased

 8     number of sittings days per week after the recess, which would result in

 9     speeding up the pace of this trial.  The Chamber is a aware of the

10     recently filed motion for a non-sitting week after the recess.  We'll

11     consider that, but, Mr. Bakrac, your request for additional time which is

12     focusing on Mr. Simatovic, of course, is a matter not exactly the same as

13     speeding up, that is, sitting more days a week after the recess.  So if

14     you'd like -- if you wish to make submissions on that, you are invited to

15     do so, and the same is true for the Stanisic Defence.  We'd like to

16     receive any submissions on this matter before the -- not later than the

17     9th of July.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, we would like to make submissions,

19     but we would like the submissions to be based on the most up-to-date view

20     by Dr. Eekhof as to what would be reasonable.  I don't know if Your

21     Honours would wish then that we construct some questions to put to Eekhof

22     in a way we have done for provisional release or if Your Honours would --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll, consider -- I -- of course the Chamber is

24     aware of all of the reports that have been filed and now and then there

25     are problems and sometimes it was relatively unproblematic.  But, if

Page 5963

 1     there are any specific questions you would like to raise with Dr. Eekhof,

 2     I think it would be the best way that you would submit him to the Chamber

 3     first and we deal with that in a similar way as with the questions in

 4     relation to travelling -- capability of travelling and these kind of

 5     matters.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So as then we could receive input from Dr. Eekhof as

 8     well.

 9             Then finally, the Chamber has admitted P380, P382, P385, P387, on

10     the 22nd of July.  Earlier we had suggested that the Prosecution would

11     file a chart indicating for each document which parts of the documents

12     are particularly relevant and further explaining the probative value.

13     The decision on admission stands, but the Prosecution is nevertheless

14     requested to file such a chart in order to assist the Chamber in

15     attaching the appropriate weight to the documents.

16             Now, the Chamber can imagine, Mr. Groome, that you would leave

17     one column in that chart open and that you give an opportunity to the

18     Defence to fill that column with Defence comments and wait with filing

19     your chart for one week to see whether there's any additional Defence

20     comments in relation to that.

21             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And then for the Defence, would you carefully look

23     at the chart that Mr. Groome will propose and if you do not add your

24     comments within a week from disclosure of the draft chart by the

25     Prosecution, then the Chamber will understand it as if you have no

Page 5964

 1     comments.  I mean, the documents are admitted into evidence, that has

 2     been done already.

 3             Finally, I'd like to put on the record that where earlier the OTP

 4     had informed the Chamber that the Mladic diaries were all disclosed in

 5     translation, that that was a mistake, I do understand that we -- we have

 6     granted four weeks for the Defence to respond to.  Now, of course those

 7     four weeks will start once disclosure is complete in the English

 8     language.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I understand.  I apologise.  It

10     was the original scans that were available last week.  I believe a fair

11     number of them have been disclosed in English, but that process will be

12     completed next week sometime.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the Chamber would like to be kept updated on

14     where we stand because otherwise it's a bit difficult for us to keep an

15     eye on the four-weeks time-limit we've set.

16             If there's no other matter, I have no further issues to raise.

17             I would then invite the Prosecution to call its next witness, as

18     I do understand it's Mr. Bogunovic who will testify through videolink

19     from Belgrade.

20             MR. WEBER:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Adam

21     Weber on behalf of the Prosecution.  That's correct.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll see whether the videolink functions

23     adequately.  Could I hear from the representative of the Registry in

24     Belgrade whether she can hear us and whether she can see us.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, we can hear you

Page 5965

 1     and see you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Most likely because it was not plugged in the right

 3     socket, could you please repeat what you just said.  I saw you speaking,

 4     I didn't hear you.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, we can hear you

 6     and we can see you.  Can you hear us?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We can hear you, we can see you.  If you speak

 8     one or two more words then we'll verify but at least all the Judges are

 9     able to hear you as well.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  [Via videolink]  Yes, Your Honour.  Can you hear

11     us now?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now we all can hear you.

13             And could you please tell us who is with you in the room where

14     you are in at this moment?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  [Via videolink] In this moment is just one

16     representative of the Registry and one technician.  The witness is

17     awaiting in the witness room and we can bring him in right away.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, would you please bring the witness in to the

19     videolink room.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have a loud-speaker so the witness doesn't

22     have to wear any headphones.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  [Via videolink] Witness is in the video-link

24     room, Your Honour, now and he has his headphones on.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, good afternoon.  Can you hear me, can you see

Page 5966

 1     me, Mr. Bogunovic?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bogunovic, before you give evidence, the Rules

 4     of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration that

 5     you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  The

 6     text is now in front of you.  May I invite you to make that solemn

 7     declaration.  Please stand for it.  Could you make that solemn

 8     declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.  Please be seated.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bogunovic, you'll first be examined by

14     Mr. Weber.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.  Mr. Weber, you may

15     proceed.

16             MR. WEBER:

17                           WITNESS:  BORISLAV BOGUNOVIC

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           [Witness testified via videolink]

20                           Examination by Mr. Weber:

21        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Bogunovic.  Can you see me on your monitor?

22        A.   Yes, I can see you.  Good afternoon.

23        Q.   Could you please introduce yourself to the Trial Chamber.

24        A.   Sorry, I couldn't hear you very well.

25        Q.   Could you please introduce yourself to the Trial Chamber.

Page 5967

 1        A.   My name is Borislav Bogunovic.  I was born on the 25th of March,

 2     1950 in Negoslavci, the Republic of Croatia.

 3        Q.   Did you provide two statements to investigators from the ICTY on

 4     the 6th of June, 2003, and the 8th of February, 2007?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   Have you had an opportunity prior to testifying here today to

 7     review your prior statements in the Serbian language?

 8        A.   Yes, I have.

 9        Q.   If you were asked the same questions that you were asked during

10     these previous statements, would you provide the same answers in

11     substance?

12        A.   Yes, I would.

13             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 5301,

14     which is the 2003 ICTY statement; and 65 ter 5302, the 2007 ICTY

15     statement into evidence.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, it's not uncommon that we identify the

17     relevant statements with the witness.  Now, there's hardly any chance

18     that there's any fake statement.  If there's any doubt as to that, I

19     would like to hear from the Defence, otherwise, we could proceed.  There

20     appears to be no reason not to proceed.

21             Mr. Registrar, would you please assign numbers.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter 5301 will be P553.  And

23     65 ter 5302 will be P554, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections to admission?  No objections.  P553

25     and P554 are admitted into evidence.  Yes, Mr. Weber, nevertheless, you

Page 5968

 1     go over the formalities very quickly.  Perhaps I put one or two questions

 2     to the witness in this respect.

 3             Mr. Bogunovic, when you gave these statements at the time, did

 4     you answer the question in accordance with the truth to the best of your

 5     recollection?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bogunovic, when you reviewed those statements,

 8     did you recognise them as the statements you gave at the time?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, please proceed, Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   In paragraph 60 of Exhibit P553, you confirm a route driven

13     between Backa Palanka to Vukovar via Sarengrad in a video.  Did you again

14     have occasion to see this video on the 24th of June, 2010, and did you

15     confirm that this route is depicted at minute marker 503 to 624 of the

16     video?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders the two

19     associated exhibits to Exhibit P553.  The first associated exhibit is a

20     photo array under Prosecution 65 ter 4640.  The second associated exhibit

21     is a video under 65 ter 2839.  The Prosecution is only tendering the

22     first 9 minutes and 1 second of 65 ter 2839.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean that what you uploaded is limited to

24     that?

25             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

Page 5969

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any objections?  No objections.

 2     Mr. Registrar, the photo array 4640 and the video 2839 will receive what

 3     numbers?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  The 65 ter 4640 will receive Exhibit P555, Your

 5     Honour.  And the 65 ter 2839 will receive Exhibit P556, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P555 and P556 are admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Pursuant to the Chamber's instructions of 18 February

 8     2010, the Prosecution requests leave at this time to present a public

 9     witness summary of the evidence of Borislav Bogunovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you explained to the witness the purpose of it?

11             MR. WEBER:  I did during proofing, but I don't know if the

12     Chamber would like to remind him.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bogunovic, Mr. Weber will now read a summary of

14     your statement that is to inform the public what your testimony is about.

15     However, the evidence is in your statements themselves.  Please proceed.

16             MR. WEBER:  Borislav Bogunovic is the former minister of the

17     interior of the SAO SBWS government.  Prior to becoming the minister of

18     interior, Mr. Bogunovic was elected vice-president of the SDS party in

19     Vukovar in May of 1990.  On 7 January 1991, the Serb National Council of

20     the SBWS was established and the witness was appointed vice-president of

21     the council by Goran Hadzic.  In August 1991, the SAO SBWS government was

22     formed in Dalj.  In his capacity of minister of interior, the witness was

23     part of the establishment of the Serb police force of the SAO SBWS.

24             Although Mr. Bogunovic was appointed minister of interior, the

25     decisions regarding the SBWS police force were made in Belgrade.

Page 5970

 1     Mr. Bogunovic personally met with Jovica Stanisic on three to four

 2     occasions throughout the fall of 1991.  The witness provides evidence

 3     that whenever Jovica Stanisic had to talk to anyone from the SAO SBWS

 4     government, he would do it with Goran Hadzic and with Radovan Stojicic,

 5     aka Badza.  The witness states that Badza received operational orders

 6     directly from Belgrade and he would then discuss these orders with Goran

 7     Hadzic.  The SBWS police force was equipped with uniforms and guns by the

 8     Serbian MUP in Novi Sad and Badza acted as a co-ordinator with the

 9     Serbian MUP by providing Mr. Bogunovic with guide-lines on what to do.

10             After the establishment of the police forces in Borovo Selo and

11     Dalj, other police stations were opened.  The equipment, included luxury

12     cars, were supplied by the Novi Sad SUP.  The salaries for the SBWS

13     police came from Novi Sad as the SBWS had no monetary system and could

14     not exist without the full support of Serbia.  The evidence of this

15     witness is that Hadzic was controlled by the authorities in Belgrade and

16     that Arkan was not under the control of the JNA as he was under the

17     control of the Serbian MUP and Jovica Stanisic.

18             At the end of August 1991, Mr. Bogunovic relocated his office

19     from Dalj to Sid and later when Vukovar was taken over by the Serbian

20     forces, Mr. Bogunovic set up the office in Ilok at the end of November

21     1991.  The Red Berets appeared in Ilok at the beginning of December 1991

22     and the witness learned that Franko Simatovic, aka Frenki, was the person

23     who gave them orders.  Mr. Bogunovic states that the Red Berets created

24     some problems in Ilok as they were carry out arbitrary checks and

25     searches on vehicles and their occupants.  The Red Berets often

Page 5971

 1     confiscated vehicles that were never returned to the lawful owners.  For

 2     this reason, Mr. Bogunovic requested the army to intervene.  After a

 3     December 1991 meeting with Jovica Stanisic and Badza, Mr. Bogunovic was

 4     subsequently removed as minister of the interior of the SAO SBWS.

 5             At this time the Prosecution would note for the Chamber's

 6     reference that the locations discussed by this witness can be found on

 7     map 18 admitted as Exhibit P9 and map 37 admitted as part of P258.

 8             May I proceed?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, in paragraph 18 of Exhibit P554, it is your

12     evidence that Slobodan Milosevic controlled Goran Hadzic through Arkan

13     and Badza, and Stanisic was the link between Milosevic and Arkan and

14     Badza.  Your testimony today will focus on your experiences with these

15     individuals and the matter in which this impression became known to you.

16     Did you know that these connections existed when the SDS party was formed

17     in Vukovar in May of 1990?

18        A.   I didn't know that at the time.  I didn't know what the links

19     were, but I was aware that we were definitely, you know, in some way

20     connected with Ivan Raskovic as it turned out later.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Jovan Raskovic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was our belief that Jovan

23     Raskovic and his associates went regularly to Belgrade and that that was

24     the link with Belgrade.

25             MR. WEBER:

Page 5972

 1        Q.   Between the formation of the SDS party in May of 1990 and the

 2     establishment of the Serb National Council on 7th January, 1991, did you

 3     become aware of any communications between Goran Hadzic and Slobodan

 4     Milosevic?

 5        A.   Goran Hadzic mentioned going to Belgrade, and he said that there

 6     he would meet Slobodan Milosevic.  He would then convey that to us during

 7     various meetings.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 15 of Exhibit P554, you state that Goran Hadzic went

 9     to Belgrade a number of times during 1991 to meet with Stanisic and with

10     Slobodan Milosevic.  I know that because in government meetings Hadzic

11     often mentioned these meetings.  When did you become aware of Hadzic

12     going to these meetings in Belgrade in 1991?

13        A.   I became aware of it during a meeting when Goran told all of us

14     that he had been to Belgrade and that he had an agreement with President

15     Milosevic to go on with our work and establish a government.  He also

16     said that we enjoyed their support and that everyone was aware of that.

17        Q.   How often would Goran Hadzic go to Belgrade to meet with Slobodan

18     Milosevic between January 1991 and the formation of the SAO SBWS

19     government in August of 1991?

20        A.   That was on several occasions.  On several occasions he conveyed

21     a messages to us.  I'm not sure that he informed us about all of his

22     visits, but those visits probably happened five or six times during that

23     period of time.

24        Q.   When did you first hear of Jovica Stanisic being present at these

25     meetings in Belgrade?

Page 5973

 1        A.   Goran told us that.  He told us that he went to visit President

 2     Milosevic together with Jovica Stanisic.

 3        Q.   Approximately when did Goran Hadzic tell you about this meeting

 4     with Jovica Stanisic and President Milosevic?

 5        A.   He told us that on the eve of the setting up of the SAO Krajina

 6     government.

 7        Q.   Did you hear of Jovica Stanisic being present at all between

 8     meetings from January 1991 to August 1991?

 9        A.   Well, as far as I could learn from Hadzic who informed us about

10     what was going on, I would say, yes.

11        Q.   When is the earliest point in time that you heard of Jovica

12     Stanisic being present at meetings in Belgrade?

13        A.   Well, I heard that sometime after the 1st of May, after the

14     conflicts broke out in Borovo Selo.  That was when he informed us that

15     Jovica Stanisic had also attended a meeting.

16        Q.   Between May and August 1991, how often did Hadzic go to Belgrade

17     for these meetings?

18        A.   I think, or rather, as far as I know from his reports during that

19     period he attended such meetings about four times, meetings in Belgrade.

20        Q.   You state in the same paragraph, this is paragraph 15 of Exhibit

21     P554, that Hadzic would come back from Belgrade with instructions on what

22     to do.  What instructions were provided to Hadzic between May and August

23     of 1991?

24        A.   These instructions were as follows:  We were supposed to set up a

25     government, we were supposed to have our representatives who would

Page 5974

 1     represent the people of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  All that

 2     boiled down to our task to set up a government.  We were supposed to see

 3     what we would do with the produce that was produced in the area, and we

 4     were also supposed to provide security for the corridor that would allow

 5     people to get supplies, to get to the doctors, and that was supposed to

 6     be done by the military.  The military were supposed to provide security

 7     for those who wanted to pass through that corridor, and we were also

 8     supposed to try to enable the people of the area to work and live and

 9     move about without any problems.

10        Q.   What members of the Serb National Council were told of these

11     meetings by Goran Hadzic?

12        A.   Ilija Koncarevic, Ilija Petrovic, Slavko Dokmanovic, Miodrag

13     Crnogorac, Boro Milinkovic, and perhaps some others who I don't remember

14     at the moment, but I would say that those were the people involved.

15        Q.   Whose instructions did you believe were being implemented by the

16     Serb National Council of the SBWS prior to August of 1991?

17        A.   I believe that we had a lot of things that were imposed upon us

18     by the situation.  However, I was also convinced that Goran was receiving

19     instructions from Belgrade and whenever he came back from there, he

20     brought new instructions for us as to how to proceed.

21        Q.   After the government of the SAO SBWS was formed in August of

22     1991, how often did Goran Hadzic go to Belgrade and receive instructions?

23        A.   When Hadzic became the president of the government, he went to

24     Belgrade but more often he went to Novi Sad.  We didn't have our monetary

25     system, we didn't have our tender, so we had to deal with the problem of

Page 5975

 1     salaries for the police and everybody else.  And at that time we were

 2     closer to Novi Sad, and as I say, Goran Hadzic did get to Belgrade, but

 3     more often he went to Novi Sad where he dealt with the matters that faced

 4     both him and all of us.

 5        Q.   Where in Novi Sad would Goran Hadzic go for meetings?

 6        A.   Goran Hadzic attended those meetings at the regional government

 7     or the regional council, and that's where he discussed problems that

 8     prevailed at the time, mainly the sale of the agricultural produce and

 9     its transportation to Serbia.  We could not sell our produce anywhere

10     else.  That was one thing.  And there was also another thing and that was

11     to implement some ideas and deal with some problems that we faced.  The

12     first problem was funding that we didn't have or finances, in general.

13     And the second thing was helping us with the work of the government.

14     With our work we did not have much experience.  We had just started doing

15     our jobs, executing our tasks and we needed help with that.

16        Q.   Between August and December 1991, what instructions were provided

17     during -- provided to Hadzic during these meetings?

18        A.   According to those instructions, we were supposed to help our

19     residents to see how they could get by some money.  All the goods were in

20     short supply and the supplies were getting shorter by the day.  So there

21     was a problem with supplies, with the money, things had to be brought

22     over from Serbia and vice-versa.  Things had to be transported to Serbia.

23     Also, there was a need for us to inform both people in Belgrade as well

24     as people in Novi Sad about what was going on in our area.

25        Q.   Did Goran Hadzic receive any instructions on what ministers to

Page 5976

 1     appoint to the government?

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, objection.  Unless my learned friend is

 3     referring to a part of the statement, he must be leading.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I don't have a particular point in the

 5     statement.  I believe the witness has generally discussed they received

 6     instructions on how to set up the government of the SAO SBWS.  I can

 7     phrase it a little bit more broadly by saying what, if any.  There are

 8     many instructions that were provided many times, I'm just trying to get

 9     directly to the matter.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If you please rephrase it and because it seems that

11     instructions appear clearly in the statement but not necessarily what

12     type of instructions and what these instructions covered as we find it in

13     your question.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, may I also make the point that I again

15     cannot find anything about the regional government in Novi Sad giving

16     instructions to Hadzic in the statements.  This is a whole -- I might be

17     wrong, but this looks as though it's a whole new subject which my learned

18     friend has discussed with the witness but not disclosed to the Defence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:  The witness's meanings and providing -- I don't want

21     to say too much in front of the witness in terms of --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If you put questions to the witness, could you

23     refer, as much as you can, to the part of the statement you are --

24             MR. WEBER:  I will.  The witness has discussed at length what was

25     going on in Novi Sad and what was provided from there.

Page 5977

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you perhaps in order to inform Mr. Jordash and

 2     the Chamber about what parts of the statement you are referring to with

 3     your questions.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Of course.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, what, if any, instructions were provided to Hadzic

 8     concerning the appointment of ministers?

 9        A.   First of all, the party provided proposals for the appointment of

10     ministers and that was normal.  However, there were also people whom we

11     didn't know at the time.  They did not reside in the SBWS territory.

12     They were Caslav Ocic from Belgrade.  Ilija Koncarevic from Novi Sad,

13     Ilija Petrovic from Novi Sad, and I don't know if there was anybody else.

14     We provided our proposals and Goran told us that those men that I have

15     just mentioned should also be appointed as ministers.  Most of us, or

16     rather, none of us knew them.  We had seen Koncarevic and Petrovic at

17     some prior meetings.  I don't know how they happened to find themselves

18     among us, but I can say that people who resided in the territory of that

19     area I knew them but as for the others, we did not propose them, we did

20     not know anything about them until the moment Goran informed us that they

21     would be put forth for those positions.

22        Q.   Did Goran inform you of the reason he was putting forth certain

23     individuals for appointment as ministers?

24        A.   The reason that he mentioned was the fact that those people were

25     necessary to establish the necessary links between us and Belgrade and

Page 5978

 1     Novi Sad.  That's what he had been told and that's the message that he

 2     conveyed to us.  He recommended that we should accept that proposal and

 3     we did finally.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Could I please have Exhibit P16 in evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, there was some misunderstanding.  May I

 6     take it that you want to have P16 which is in evidence on the screen?

 7             MR. WEBER:  Oh, I apologise, yes, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  There was some confusion with the

 9     Registrar.  That's how I understood you, but -- so what you wanted to say

10     is, could I please have Exhibit P16, which is already in evidence.

11             MR. WEBER:  Thank you very much.

12        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, can you see the document that is now before you?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   This is the "Official Gazette" publication listing the ministers

15     of the government of the SAO SBWS.  Who on this list did Hadzic receive

16     instructions to appointment?  If you could please just go down it.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I do have to object to this line of

18     questions.  This does not in any form appear in the disclosure.  This is

19     a matter which my learned friend has discussed with the witness at

20     length, has obviously got notes and has chosen not to disclose.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it what Mr. Weber has done apparently is not

22     for you to tell us, but you say it's not part of the disclosure, whatever

23     he may have discussed or not discussed with the witness.

24             MR. JORDASH:  What is part of the disclosure is Hadzic --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's see what Mr. Weber's answer is.

Page 5979

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, there's two statements.  There's two

 2     proofing notes -- three proofing notes, and another third statement that

 3     has been taken from this witness.  I'm showing him an item in evidence

 4     and in conjunction with a rather short proofing note last week, there was

 5     information concerning information about an appointment of the minister.

 6     This witness throughout his evidence has testified that there were

 7     instructions received by Goran Hadzic on how to set up the government of

 8     the SAO SBWS.  This falls well in the confines of that notice.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The proofing note, of course, first of all, is not

10     in evidence, but second is, I don't know --

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a bit difficult for the Chamber to decide

13     because we have not seen any proofing notes.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I can inform the Court that --

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the only thing I just want to caution is

16     because the witness hasn't given an answer if Mr. Jordash could refrain

17     from providing any substantive information in whatever his comments are

18     going to be.

19             MR. JORDASH:  I can put it this way:  That the disclosure that we

20     have received does not -- concerning the appointment of one minister,

21     does not include the last 20 minutes of evidence and the ministers

22     mentioned therein.  And, Your Honour, I did put my objection in the way

23     that I did, that my learned friend has discussed this with the witness,

24     because it's clearly the witness and counsel knows where they are going

25     with this.  The only people who don't know are us in the Defence.

Page 5980

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the witness has testified that Goran

 2     Hadzic received instructions on how to set up the government of SAO SBWS.

 3     I'm just showing him an exhibit and asking him who, and that's all I'm

 4     doing.  This is within the confines of his noticed evidence for this

 5     witness and who he was and his relationships with these other people.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, my learned friend is right.  We did receive

 7     notice that this witness was going to say Hadzic received instructions

 8     from Milosevic.  And then we received a proofing note in June detailing

 9     that one particular person was appointed as a minister because of the

10     first accused, and that is it in relation to what, in fact, Hadzic

11     received instructions to do.  So, yes, we have received an extremely

12     generalised disclosure on the issue and my learned friend's submission

13     amounts to, well, we can fill in the details as we go along in Court.

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I can --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:  In paragraph 6 of the 2003 statement going back there

17     is a sentence in there, there were also discussions in Novi Sad and

18     Belgrade about the formation of the government.  He details how early

19     that occurred.  He names many of the other people throughout his

20     statement that were included in those discussions, talks in paragraph 7

21     about prior to the formation of that government.  Mentions an individual

22     that he has just mentioned today.  If counsel could please actually read

23     through the statements before making accusations towards the Prosecution

24     in this regard.  We are just following through on what this witness's

25     disclosed evidence has been.

Page 5981

 1             MR. JORDASH:  I'm sorry --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me try to cut this short.  Apparently

 3     instructions and setting up of the government is a, as I understand you

 4     well, is a rather general issue and to go into all kind of details which

 5     could have elicited during these interviews would have put you on notice

 6     of what actually Mr. Weber is asking about.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  In fact, it's worse than that, Your Honour.

 8     They -- the paragraph of the statement my learned friend has just

 9     discussed do summarise the position, and the position is summarised at

10     paragraph 6 where the witness speaks of discussions with Milosevic,

11     discussions and meetings between Hadzic and persons in Belgrade, and

12     approvals of certain decisions made by those local to the SBWS.  So we

13     have at one point in time disclosure saying the decisions were made

14     locally and approved in Belgrade, and now what we have is a complete

15     reversal, that decisions were being made in Belgrade and sent to SBWS,

16     and then on top of that non-disclosure of what those decisions were, in

17     fact, the decisions I mean emanating from Belgrade.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber denies the objection, although it also

20     expresses that, Mr. Weber, it's not as clear-cut as you say it.  It would

21     have been preferable to have more of the details you are apparently

22     interested in now in the statement so that it would have been disclosed

23     to the Defence.  We'll see how it develops and we'll also see whether

24     this would trigger any further need for preparations from the Defence.

25     Please proceed.

Page 5982

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, on the document that appears before you, could you

 3     please tell us who on this list did Hadzic receive instructions to

 4     appoint?

 5        A.   As far as I can see here at that meeting we did not discuss the

 6     matter of Ilija Kojic being the defence minister.  Caslav Ocic was not

 7     supposed to be a minister for foreign affairs.  This came as a surprise.

 8     However, we finally ended up accepting Goran Hadzic's explanation.

 9        Q.   You just mentioned Ilija Kojic.  How was Ilija Kojic appointed to

10     being defence minister?

11        A.   He was appointed upon Mr. Goran Hadzic's proposal once he was

12     appointed president of the government.  As I said, the party had not put

13     his name forth.  It was at Goran Hadzic's proposal that we appointed him.

14     Goran Hadzic had the right to put forth proposals, and he proposed Ilija

15     Kojic and Caslav Ocic.

16        Q.   Did anyone tell Goran Hadzic to appoint Ilija Kojic?

17        A.   No, as I've just said, that came as a surprise to us.  However,

18     he said that such a move was necessary, that he himself believed that

19     that should be done, and we went along.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have shown to the

21     witness page 2 of the B/C/S and English versions of Exhibit P407.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could I ask one or two additional

23     questions to the witness.

24             Mr. Bogunovic, do I understand you well that in your discussions

25     you came up with proposals and suggestions of people to be appointed and

Page 5983

 1     that finally most of them were approved but not all of them, is that how

 2     I have to understand your testimony?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am afraid I did not hear you

 4     well.  Could you please repeat your question.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do I understand you well that you during your

 6     conversations you suggested and you proposed names of those to be

 7     appointed and that then your suggestions or proposals would be approved

 8     by Belgrade, but that this did not always happen, that sometimes others

 9     were appointed?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, there were such

11     instances as well.  We put forth our proposals.  We conveyed those

12     proposals to Goran Hadzic, and it happened often times that he had to

13     see, he had to think about it, and then finally he would come up with his

14     own proposals, and he explained that the people he proposed were well

15     connected in Belgrade or lived there and so on and so forth.  In any

16     case, he urged us to approve his proposals and to act upon them.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you gain the impression that the visits of

18     Mr. Hadzic to Belgrade were of any influence to the final appointments

19     specifically in relation to those persons you had not proposed or

20     suggested?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So when you explained that he told you what the good

23     reasons were to appoint other persons than the ones you suggested, you

24     gained the impression that this was discussed and/or supported by those

25     to whom Mr. Hadzic talked in Belgrade; is that correctly understood?

Page 5984

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  As soon as our proposal was

 2     not accepted, that meant that there must have been another

 3     counter-proposal that Goran would go along with.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but what role would Belgrade have played in

 5     those other proposals?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the way I saw it at the time,

 7     it seems that people who were appointed were those who would certainly

 8     keep them posted at all times about what we were doing in the government

 9     and what was happening in the area.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say keep them posted, who are you referring

11     it to when you say "them?"

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably someone from the

13     government or Milosevic himself.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You mean Belgrade government circles; is that

15     how I have to understand it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please show to the witness

19     P407.  At this time the Prosecution requests that the report not be

20     broadcast to the public.  Page 2 of both the B/C/S and English versions,

21     please.

22        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, in the first paragraph of this Serbian state

23     security report, it describes a conflict between Ilija Kojic and Miroljub

24     Vujovic.  Do you know what this conflict is about?

25             MR. WEBER:  Counsel, if you like, it's on paragraph 22 of the

Page 5985

 1     2008 proofing note.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you right away that the

 3     rift between the two was actually with Vujovic on one side who was a

 4     representative of the Territorial Defence and he was at the helm of it

 5     and Ilija Kojic on the other, who was at the head of the Ministry of

 6     Defence at the time.  There was an argument between the two and at some

 7     point things got a bit too far.  Basically they almost engaged in open

 8     clashes.  The person who tried to calm the tension was Mr. Visic who was

 9     the municipal president.  He tried to act as a go-between to reduce

10     tensions and to prevent any potential bloodshed and victims.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   What was the reason that Kojic wanted Vujovic to topple the chief

13     of the Vukovar SUP?

14        A.   The reason for that was because Vujovic followed a certain line,

15     and he had people who had fought with him in battle-fields.  An argument

16     ensued between him and Kojic because he believed that he was not supposed

17     to hold that position and that he wasn't doing things the way people

18     expected him to, or at least those fighters believed things should be

19     run.

20        Q.   The second paragraph of this report indicates that the assistant

21     minister of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia, Jovica Stanisic,

22     tried to use Slobodan Ivkovic, Ilija Kojic, and Kostic, and others to

23     turn the Krajina into a "twilight zone."  Was there any connection or are

24     you aware of any connection between Jovica Stanisic and Ilija Kojic?

25        A.   I believe there must have been a connection between the two

Page 5986

 1     because Ilija Kojic at the time was the defence minister.  They probably

 2     had some points in common, although I cannot be any more specific than

 3     that.  In any case, I believe they must have been in touch and that they

 4     had their own arrangements.

 5        Q.   What did you either directly see or hear that led you to believe

 6     this?

 7        A.   We had meetings about those events.  Hadzic was in a way

 8     circumvented as the president as well as we in the government.  This was

 9     at the apex of the rift between the minister of defence and the

10     Territorial Defence.  At that time the minister of defence of Krajina was

11     included as well.  And one could clearly see that the police and the

12     military had gone their own separate ways.  They could not reach an

13     agreement about some things that were taking place at the moment.

14        Q.   What type of licence plates did Ilija Kojic have on his car?

15        A.   The registration plates on Ilija Kojic's car were that of the MUP

16     of Serbia with an M.

17        Q.   Did any other ministers have licence plates with the same

18     registration?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   In paragraph 56 of Exhibit P553, you state that there were

21     Territorial Defence staffs in the territories that were freed and they

22     were responsible to the minister of defence, Ilija Kojic.  He was the one

23     who co-ordinated the Territorial Defence with the JNA.  My question to

24     you is, who controlled the Territorial Defence of the SAO SBWS?

25        A.   Until the end of 1991 the TO was controlled by the army.  They

Page 5987

 1     had to co-ordinate their activities with the army at the time.

 2        Q.   When you say "they had to co-ordinate," who was the "they" that

 3     you are referring to?

 4        A.   The TO, or rather, TO staffs and army staffs.  They had to be in

 5     co-ordination and co-operation.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I don't know if this is a time for a

 7     break or not, but this would be a good breaking point for me.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Weber.  And how much time would you still

 9     need after the break?

10             MR. WEBER:  Still have a ways to go.  A full session.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Full session.  But the initial assessment was two

12     hours, isn't it?

13             MR. WEBER:  Yes, and this is the first session so I --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Two sessions is not the same as two hours.

15             MR. WEBER:  Yes, I appreciate.  So I believe I will use whatever

16     the two hour allotted time is.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll have a break and resume at 4.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, if you are ready, you may proceed.

21             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   In paragraph 45 of Exhibit P553, you indicate that:

23             "Although Arkan was not a member of government, he would

24     occasionally attend meetings.  It was my impression that he did that in

25     order to control some ministers."

Page 5988

 1             What gave you the impression that Arkan attended meetings in

 2     order to control some of the ministers?

 3        A.   It depended very much on the agenda of a meeting.  Occasionally

 4     Arkan would come in, sit down, and listen to what we were discussing so

 5     as to be familiar with what was being discussed at such meetings.

 6        Q.   Would there be times that Arkan took a more active role in the

 7     meetings?

 8        A.   He wouldn't say much, only on occasion.  Mostly after a

 9     government session would finish, he would leave with Hadzic and then the

10     two of them probably discussed what was discussed that day.

11        Q.   Could you please describe the relationship between Goran Hadzic

12     and Arkan?

13        A.   I can say that Arkan's seat was in Erdut, much as Goran's.  They

14     met in the morning usually, and they were constantly in touch, unless

15     Arkan was somewhere in the field outside of Erdut.

16        Q.   In paragraph 23 of Exhibit P554, you state that you got the

17     impression that Arkan and Badza operated on the same level with no

18     subordination between each other.  They were both trusted by the Belgrade

19     establishment so they had freedom in the field.  What gave you the

20     impression that Arkan and Badza operated on the same level with no

21     subordination between them?

22        A.   I got that impression because they met daily and co-operated.  I

23     know that Arkan had his men, whom he took into action.  He did things of

24     his own accord, at least much of what he did was done in that way.  I

25     can't say whether the two of them discussed things they were going to do

Page 5989

 1     frequently.  I only know that they were together frequently.  And that's

 2     what gave me the impression that they worked on things jointly.

 3        Q.   When you or other members of the SAO SBWS government would

 4     discuss matters with Arkan and Badza, did Arkan and Badza indicate who

 5     they had to contact?

 6        A.   No, they never did so.  They never said who had sent them and who

 7     they were in contact with.  They didn't share that with us.  Goran was

 8     aware of it and perhaps some other people, but I was not in a position to

 9     know.

10             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P54 marked

11     for identification for the witness.

12        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, this is a certificate issued by the supreme

13     headquarters of the Territorial Defence of the SAO SBWS dated 13 December

14     1991.  The certificate states it is issued in order to regulate the

15     employment status of the named individual and is signed by commander

16     Radovan Stojicic.  Why would certificates regulating the employment of TO

17     members have been issued by Badza?

18        A.   Well, the certificate speaks for itself.  It was used to justify

19     leave absence.  As you can see here, Badza appears here as the commander.

20     It surprised me a bit when I saw this document because he never referred

21     to himself as the commander, but we can see him signing this, and this

22     explains what his role was in the area at the time.

23        Q.   Do you recognise the stamp on this document?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   How do you recognise the stamp?

Page 5990

 1        A.   I recognise it as the stamp of the Territorial Defence of Dalj.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders

 3     Exhibit P54 into evidence.  It was originally marked for identification

 4     on the 27th of August, 2009, with Witness B-215 pending the witness's

 5     return for cross-examination.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  P54 is admitted into

 7     evidence.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   In paragraph 19 of Exhibit P554 you state:

10             "Regarding the financing of the SAO SBWS police force, I have to

11     state that the money came from Novi Sad.  On the other hand, there was no

12     monetary system in the SAO SBWS.  We had no funds."

13             This paragraph concludes:

14             "I could say that the SAO SBWS was a virtual government.  It

15     existed on paper but, in fact, we could not do anything without Serbia's

16     support."

17             What do you mean when you state that the SAO SBWS government

18     could not do anything without Serbia's support?

19        A.   It was clear to everyone that without the support and

20     co-operation from Serbia we would not have been able to do anything.  We

21     did not have our monetary system, our own finances that we could use to

22     pay the police at first and later on the other bodies.  That was the

23     first precondition.  We had to provide our agricultural produce, that was

24     for the most part taken to Novi Sad and Vojvodina.  And in return, we

25     received money.  That is how we managed to keep the government and police

Page 5991

 1     going.  That's how we paid people working for the government and the

 2     public servants we employed.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 2635, page 2

 4     in the English and page 1 in the B/C/S, placed before the witness.

 5        Q.   This is the budget of the government of the SAO SBWS for the year

 6     1991 as published in the "Official Gazette."  Under Article 1 of the

 7     budget, it states that the total revenue of the SAO SBWS for the year

 8     1991 amounts to just over 27 million dinars.  Did the government of the

 9     SAO SBWS have over 27 million dinars available as revenue?

10        A.   We can see that by May 2, 1992 the situation in the area was

11     normal.  There was no existing problems in terms of payment.  We followed

12     the system that had been used in the Republic of Croatia.  Only after our

13     government had been formed we established our Ministry of Finance.

14     However, what you see here is something we didn't really have.  This was

15     only the final amount for that current year in terms of revenue and

16     expenditure, but I don't know how anyone arrived at these figures.  As I

17     said, much of it -- much of the system did not operate.  In my opinion,

18     this is fictitious so as to put something on paper.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 in the

20     B/C/S.

21        Q.   Under Article 5 of the budget, the sources of revenues are

22     individually listed.  Could you please review these sources and tell us

23     if the government of the SAO SBWS collected revenues from these sources

24     in 1991.

25             MR. WEBER:  In the English version this carries over to page 3.

Page 5992

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me start with first

 2     things first.  The surplus of revenues --

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   Sir --

 5        A.   -- I don't know where that started from.  There are many --

 6        Q.   Sir, sir, I'm sorry to interrupt you.  Unfortunately I'm limited

 7     on time.  I was wondering if you could just please look at these listed

 8     sources of revenue and let us know simply whether or not the SAO SBWS

 9     actually collected revenue from these sources?

10        A.   It's hard to believe.

11        Q.   Is it then a correct understanding that the SAO SBWS did not

12     collect revenue from these sources?

13        A.   Yes, you would be right there.  It didn't.

14        Q.   This exhibit reflects that Ilija Koncarevic issued this decision.

15     Why would Ilija Koncarevic be the individual to issue a decision on the

16     budget?

17        A.   Ilija Koncarevic was the president of the Assembly at the time.

18     I don't know.  It's very hard for me to understand that that was not done

19     by the minister of finance or the president of the government.  I really

20     don't know how come that it was Ilija Koncarevic who did that and not

21     somebody else.

22             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 12 exhibits into

23     evidence.  We are requesting separate exhibit numbers for each of the

24     exhibits.  These Exhibits are laws, decisions, and minutes of the

25     government of the SAO SBWS.  A chart individually listing these exhibits

Page 5993

 1     was provided before the proceedings today.  Prosecution 65 ter 2635 is

 2     included on this list.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we find in the chart specific portions which we

 4     have to pay attention to the specific areas of relevance in those

 5     documents?

 6             MR. WEBER:  They are the laws that were in effect.  I believe

 7     there's a description of each of the exhibits as to what they are.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but it sounds very much like bar table

 9     tendering.

10             MR. WEBER:  That's correct.  That's what I'm doing.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Isn't it true that we have certain rules for that?

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I do have a witness on the stand that

13     could authenticate each and every one --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not about authentication.  It's about large

15     amount of texts coming in where the Chamber of course has got no idea yet

16     on whether the number 10 conclusions of the Assembly whether everything

17     is relevant or certain portions are relevant.  And I think the system is

18     that you make a chart, that you point at the specific areas of relevance

19     which the Chamber could focus on when reading it, then that there would

20     be a column for the Defence in which they could give their comments as to

21     whether they challenge the relevance of that or whether they want to draw

22     our attention to other elements of those documents so that the Chamber

23     can work in a more focused way.

24             MR. WEBER:  Be happy to do whatever the Chamber would like.  We

25     have discussed it with both Defence and there's no opposition to the

Page 5994

 1     admission of these.  I believe the parties have spoken about it and in

 2     accordance with the nature of these discussions, believe it is most

 3     efficient at this time to seek admission.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just, if -- I see 12 minutes from the 18th

 5     session of the SAO SBWS held on the 28th of November in Erdut.  Not all

 6     of it is direct relevance to the case.  It may be that that's different

 7     here, but then the Chamber wants to know what paragraph, what pages

 8     require our specific attention for this case.  I think that, Mr. Groome,

 9     also looking at you, I think we've explained this at earlier occasions.

10     To make a chart and identify the specific relevant portions of documents

11     or if the document is a short document, to describe in half a line what

12     the relevance is, then give an opportunity to the Defence to add that and

13     then make a bar table submission of those documents.

14             MR. GROOME:  We'll do that, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Meanwhile, we may, can reserve exhibit

16     numbers.

17             MR. WEBER:  Yes, if we could have at least 65 ter 2635 admitted

18     at this time.  The witness has provided --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest -- I suggest, we have here 12 bar table

20     documents that we'll reserve 12 numbers for them, and that once we've

21     received the submission in which we can read what the relevance is and

22     where the Defence has been given an opportunity to either draw attention

23     to other relevant portions or to challenge the relevance and say this is

24     a mistake that, that we then finally decide on admission.

25             Mr. Registrar, the numbers would be, the numbers to be reserved

Page 5995

 1     are?

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number that will be reserved

 3     for the 12 65 ter numbers are P557 up to P568, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And already, Mr. Weber, in this system P561 would

 5     correspond with 65 ter 2635.  Any objection because that's not bar

 6     tabled, that's introduced through the witness?  Then P561 is admitted

 7     into evidence and the other numbers we are waiting for your chart

 8     explaining relevance.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Of course.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   In your previous statements you describe personally meeting with

13     Jovica Stanisic on three to four occasions.  In paragraph 14 of Exhibit

14     P554, you discuss a late August 1991 meeting in Novi Sad in the Vojvodina

15     building -- excuse me, the Vojvodina police building.  What is the reason

16     that you and Hadzic went to this meeting in Novi Sad?

17        A.   The reason we went to Novi Sad was the setting up of police

18     stations in Dalj and Borovo Selo.  We went to that to discuss the

19     uniforms for the police and weapons, as well as communications means and

20     a couple of vehicles that would be used by our police.

21        Q.   In paragraph 13 of Exhibit P553 you state that:

22             "Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza, was with the Serbian MUP, acted as

23     co-ordinator and gave us guide-lines on what to do.  He was the one who

24     said we could go to Novi Sad and get the uniforms and equipment."

25             How did Badza co-ordinate this meeting in Novi Sad?

Page 5996

 1        A.   Badza co-ordinated the meeting through Goran Hadzic.  He told him

 2     that we should go to Novi Sad and that I should go as the minister of the

 3     interior and we were supposed to discuss the hand-over of all the

 4     aforementioned things.

 5        Q.   Was this meeting the first time that you met Jovica Stanisic in

 6     person?

 7        A.   I'm not sure whether that was the first or the second time.  I

 8     believe that it was the first time.

 9        Q.   Approximately how long did this meeting in Novi Sad last?

10        A.   The meeting was rather short.  A decision was reached to give us

11     what we had requested.  Near Novi Sad there is a place called Klisa.

12     That's where the police depo was.  Some 10 or 15 meetings after the

13     meeting I went there to that place called Klisa and from there we

14     obtained the uniforms and all the other things that I mentioned.

15        Q.   Who did this police depot belong to?

16        A.   To the MUP of Vojvodina, or rather, to the regional secretariat

17     in Novi Sad.

18        Q.   Okay.  And the MUP of Vojvodina is a part of what MUP?

19        A.   The MUP of Serbia.

20        Q.   Could you please describe the uniforms that were provided to you

21     for the police forces of the SAO SBWS?

22        A.   The uniforms were the same as the uniforms of the Serbian police.

23     Trousers, jackets, short-barrelled weapons, just like the police in

24     Serbia.

25        Q.   What colour were these uniforms?

Page 5997

 1        A.   Blue.

 2        Q.   When you say short-barrelled weapons, what type of weapons were

 3     provided to you from this depot in Novi Sad?

 4        A.   Those were the red Zastava pistols calibre 65.

 5        Q.   Where were these pistols licensed, if you know?

 6        A.   I don't know where they were licensed.  We took them over.  I

 7     signed the receipt, and I don't know about anything else.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 12 of Exhibit P554, you discuss a meeting with

 9     Jovica Stanisic in Backa Palanka that took place in the autumn of 1991.

10     Do you recall the month in which this meeting occurred?

11        A.   I can remember the meeting took place in late October or early

12     November.

13        Q.   You indicate that Jovica Stanisic, Hadzic, Ljubo Novakovic, and

14     some other people from Novi Sad whom you did not know were present.  How

15     did you know the other people that were there were from Novi Sad?

16        A.   I learned that from conversations.  They discussed the assistance

17     to the displaced persons and people in Slavonia.  They were to be

18     accommodated in Ilok and while they were in the Sports Hall there,

19     reference was made to Novi Sad from where the toiletries should have been

20     obtained, as well as groceries.  Backa Palanka is a small municipality

21     and could not provide all that, so they said that we should go to Novi

22     Sad if we wanted to obtain all those supplies.

23        Q.   Where did this meeting take place in Backa Palanka?

24        A.   In the office of the Backa Palanka municipality president.

25        Q.   Approximately how long did this meeting last?

Page 5998

 1        A.   The meeting lasted for an hour and a half, or at least that's how

 2     long I was there and that's how long the discussions took before any

 3     conclusions were reached.

 4        Q.   After this meeting, did you relocate your offices to Ilok?

 5        A.   After that meeting we had another meeting of the government in

 6     Erdut, and I was told to move my offices to Ilok together with another

 7     minister, Vojo Susa.  A couple of days later, we set up our stuff, or

 8     rather, our office where we continued to work.

 9        Q.   Who told you to move your office to Ilok?

10        A.   Goran Hadzic.

11        Q.   Once you arrived in Ilok, were there any problems?

12        A.   Yes.  When Croats left Ilok, about five to six Croats left, and

13     the equal number of people were settled there from other municipalities

14     in Croatia, some 4 to 5.000 of them.  And they were all to be

15     accommodated in houses or apartments.  They were all to be provided with

16     food and the bare necessities to sustain them during the first few days.

17        Q.   In paragraph 8 of Exhibit P554 you state that there were some

18     conflicts between our police force and the Red Berets and there were

19     complaints from civilians.  Allegedly the Red Berets took some vehicles

20     from local populations and for their own use.  The Red Berets would go

21     into houses of civilians, all of them Serbs, Slovaks, Croats to request

22     vehicles for the use of the TO.  But the vehicles were never returned to

23     their legitimate owners.  When did the Red Berets arrive in Ilok?

24        A.   I can't give you the exact date.  However, towards the end of

25     1991 or the beginning of 1992, the first Red Berets appeared.  I didn't

Page 5999

 1     know who had sent them or why, but they were there.  They arrived in a

 2     somewhat bigger house.  They were billeted there, and that's where their

 3     headquarters was.  On a couple of occasions, there were problems

 4     involving the Red Berets and the people working at the police and the

 5     citizens of Ilok.  There were cases when they took vehicles and that was

 6     allowed at the time, but they were supposed to provide a receipt.  The

 7     vehicles should have been confiscated for a limited duration of time.

 8     However, when they took the vehicles that they did, they did not provide

 9     any receipts and, any documents to that effect.  The vehicles were simply

10     taken from their owners and never returned to them after that.

11        Q.   Did you learn who the commander of the Red Berets in Ilok was?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, not everything that

14     the witness has said has been interpreted.  The witness also said how

15     many such cases there were, and I don't see that that has been recorded.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you mean vehicles being taken, how often that

17     happened?

18             MR. WEBER:  I believe this matter can either be explored on

19     cross-examination or the parties can request a verification of the

20     translation.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, Mr. Weber.  If there is what seems to be an

22     obvious lack of translation, I'm not saying there is, we would rather

23     verify that right away so that we know what the evidence is and that we

24     are not missing anything due to it not being translated.

25             Mr. Petrovic, is it there were cases when they took vehicles and

Page 6000

 1     that was allowed at the time but they were supposed to provide a receipt,

 2     is that where you thought the number was missing?  Could you point at the

 3     line --

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, both in the line

 5     that you read out as well as in the last sentence uttered by the witness.

 6     I believe that he indicated on two occasions how many such cases there

 7     were.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's ask him.

 9             Mr. Bogunovic, did you refer to numbers of those cases where

10     vehicles were taken, and if so, could you tell us what those numbers

11     were?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said three or four cases.  I

13     don't know whether there were any more than that.  I can't tell you, I

14     don't remember.  It was a long time ago.  But I remember that there were

15     complaints by that many citizens.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] What the witness has said reflects

19     the gist of the -- what he said before, although he used different words.

20     Maybe it would be useful to listen to that part of his evidence to know

21     exactly what the witness said the first time around.  I'm happy with his

22     answer but for the sake of the accuracy of the testimony, maybe it

23     wouldn't be a bad idea to listen to it and to record it just as it was

24     said.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest that we've difficulties in listening

Page 6001

 1     to the original, that you do so, and elicit from the witness in more

 2     detail what he said about it.  But I do understand we are talking about

 3     small numbers, Mr. Bogunovic; is that correct?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, proceed, Mr. Weber.  I leave it to you

 6     whether you want to seek further clarification at this moment.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Prosecution appreciates counsel assisting with the

 8     matter too.

 9        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, who did you learn was the commander of the Red

10     Berets in Ilok?

11        A.   I didn't understand your question, I'm afraid.  Whose commander?

12        Q.   I'll repeat my question.  Did you learn who the commander of the

13     Red Berets in Ilok was?

14        A.   Yes.  According to what I heard and according to the statements

15     of those people who wore Red Berets, Frenki Simatovic was their

16     commander.  That's what I heard from them.

17        Q.   In paragraph 9 of Exhibit P553, you indicate that the Red Berets

18     stationed in Ilok would carry out check-ups and searches on their own

19     accord.  What kind of check-ups were carried out by the Red Berets?

20        A.   The Red Berets checked both people and vehicles that were moving

21     about.  They also went to some houses to check who resided in them and

22     some other similar things.  For example, those people who arrived in Ilok

23     had to report to them.  They had to be in the know.  They had to know who

24     had arrived and who was moving about Ilok.

25             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 3836 from

Page 6002

 1     the bar table, if permitted.  Is a Captain Dragan Fund on file for an

 2     individual.  The file indicates that the individual was a member of a

 3     unit for special purposes of the MUP Serbia under the command of Zivojin

 4     Ivanovic, aka Zika Crnogorac, and was injured on the 18th, 19th of

 5     December, 1991, near Ilok.  This is corroboration of the testimony of

 6     this witness.  The Prosecution will also note at this time Exhibit P478,

 7     the Serbian DB file for Zika Crnogorac which includes a certificate

 8     indicating that he is a member of the reserve police force of the

 9     Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia since June 1991.  That

10     certificate was signed by Dragoslav Krsmanovic, so we are tendering from

11     the bar table a KDF file.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  This is one single file of which the, I take it the

13     relevance and the probative value has been set out by Mr. Weber.

14     Mr. Petrovic.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understood the

16     witness, or rather, the witness's statement corroborated this document.

17     In addition to what the witness said, he didn't say anything else.  He

18     did not provide any other knowledge about the Red Beret and what they did

19     in the area.  I don't see how anything from the witness's testimony could

20     corroborate this document.  I didn't hear it.  I didn't see it in his

21     statement.  The witness clearly stated that he does not know anything

22     else about the Red Berets.

23             MR. WEBER:  The witnesses have provided their knowledge.  It's

24     corroboration of the fact that the Red Berets in Ilok in December of 1991

25     as described by the witness, and just to be clear about who the Red Beret

Page 6003

 1     unit that we are talking about, we're introducing an item of evidence, a

 2     KDF file, that shows that this is a unit that was involved with the MUP

 3     of Serbia.  That's the reason for the document.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may.  I don't

 6     have the document before me but the document referred to by the

 7     Prosecutor has to do with 1993, I believe, if I am not mistaken.

 8             MR. WEBER:  The document refers to the individual who is applying

 9     for pension with the Captain Dragan fund who was injured on the 18th, the

10     night of the 18th, morning of the 19th of December, 1991 as a member of

11     the special purpose unit of the MUP under the command of Zika Crnogorac.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Irrespective of that, Your Honour,

13     this witness provided no basis for that.  We can discuss this as a bar

14     table document, but this cannot be relied on as part of this witness's

15     testimony.  Perhaps the Prosecutor will reconsider and then submit it as

16     a bar table document, not other than that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I think you introduced it as a bar table

18     document.

19             MR. WEBER:  That's correct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So that objection then is based on a

21     misunderstanding of what Mr. Weber said.  Stanisic Defence?

22             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I just want to make sure I'm accurate in my

23     response.  The difficulty that we have with this document is that it does

24     refer to specific combat activity, and it's that which is troublesome.

25     My learned friend says it's introduced to confirm or corroborate that the

Page 6004

 1     Red Berets were in Ilok, but the real evidence within that document

 2     relates to some combat activity led by Zika, and it's that which a bar

 3     table motion would be required to deal with and to explain exactly what

 4     that evidence related to and why that was relevant and probative.

 5             MR. WEBER:  If I may respond.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:  That's a rather tangential issue.  We've explained to

 8     the Chamber the reason that we are offering it, and it's to corroborate

 9     and confirm the presence of the Red Berets in Ilok.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The issue raised by Mr. Petrovic about 1993 is not

12     valid because it deals with 1991, that it should be bar tabled.  There is

13     no need to respond to that because there's what Mr. Weber did, and

14     Mr. Weber has sufficiently explained the relevance and the probative

15     value in order for the Chamber to overrule the objection by the Stanisic

16     Defence.

17             Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be Exhibit P569, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P569 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed,

20     Mr. Weber.

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   In paragraph 11 of Exhibit P554 you discuss a third meeting in

23     Belgrade with Jovica Stanisic and the SAO Krajina and Serbian

24     governments.  Could you please tell us who was present at this meeting?

25        A.   The meeting took place in the government building in Serbia.  On

Page 6005

 1     behalf of the Serbian government there was Mr. Zelenovic who chaired the

 2     meeting.  I cannot remember the names of all their ministers in

 3     attendance.  I can only tell you that on our behalf there was Goran

 4     Hadzic as president and we as the ministers.  We were all there to attend

 5     that scheduled meeting.

 6        Q.   In paragraph 11 of Exhibit P554 you indicate that shortly after

 7     the meeting in Belgrade, you were removed as the minister of the interior

 8     by Badza.  How did Badza inform you of this?

 9        A.   At a meeting of the SBWS government Badza was present and he told

10     Mr. Hadzic, the president, that I should be removed due to poor

11     co-ordination and co-operation with him.  The issue was that we disagreed

12     on a number of issues, and he suggested that a different person be

13     appointed.  This was not accepted by the other ministers at that session.

14     However, at the next session, Goran offered me the place of deputy prime

15     minister in exchange for my position of the minister of interior.

16             MR. WEBER:  No further questions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

18             I hardly dare to ask who is first and who will be more or less

19     victimised by being the second.

20             MR. JORDASH:  I hardly dare say, but it's me.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I take it that you have made clear arrangements

22     so as not to curtail the right to cross-examine by the Simatovic Defence.

23     Mr. Petrovic, if at any point you think that you might be at risk to be

24     left sufficient time, then, of course, you either asked to further

25     discuss the matter with Mr. Jordash or you address the Chamber.

Page 6006

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bogunovic, you'll now be cross-examined first by

 3     Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, before I begin, could I clarify with

 5     the Chamber how long we might be given so that I can work to that

 6     timetable?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what I see is that the Prosecution used one

 8     hour 45 minutes net time.  How much time would you need?

 9             MR. JORDASH:  I think if I was trying to be cautious I would say

10     three hours but I hope to finish in two.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And then have you made arrangements with

12     Mr. Petrovic, how many hours would he need after that?  Mr. Petrovic?

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my assessment, as it

14     stands now, is up to two hours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This is a 92 ter witness.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The Defence is encouraged to see whether they can

18     finish cross-examination together in three hours, but we'll carefully

19     monitor the way in which you use your time, that is, if you would always

20     be very focused and if you would elicit useful evidence, then we might

21     extend that to four hours as you had more or less requested together.  At

22     the same time the Chamber is not much inclined to do that if it finds a

23     lot of questions to be either repetitious or not very relevant,

24     et cetera.  So we'll also look at the way in which you use your time.

25     That is not very clear guidance, but it is guidance which may encourage

Page 6007

 1     you to use your time as efficiently as possible.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

 5        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Bogunovic.

 6        A.   Good afternoon.

 7        Q.   I want to refer, first of all, to P553, your statement of 2003,

 8     paragraph 25.  You have the statement in front of you; is that right?

 9        A.   I don't have it still.

10        Q.   Well, perhaps I can read the line to you and ask you --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  On my screen I see that the witness is provided with

12     a document.  Have you got it in front of you now, Mr. Bogunovic?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Please go to paragraph 25.  The B/C/S paragraphs

16     correspond to the English paragraphs so, yes, paragraph 25 in both the

17     English and the B/C/S.

18        Q.   And, Mr. Bogunovic, could you please look at the surrounding

19     context because I want to understand precisely what it is you meant by

20     this paragraph.

21        A.   In this part of my statement I stated that I had no contacts with

22     any person from the DB and that there isn't anything I could say on that

23     topic.

24        Q.   The investigator speaking to you in 2003, in relation to the DB

25     was asking you about what role the DB had played in the events in the

Page 6008

 1     SBWS in 1991 and 1992; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   And am I correct that your answer at paragraph 25 took into

 4     account both civilian and military matters concerning 1991 and 1992; is

 5     that correct?

 6        A.   I am afraid I did not understand your question.  Could you please

 7     repeat.

 8        Q.   The -- when you answered that the DB had -- let me start that

 9     again.  When you stated that you had no contact with the DB, who were you

10     referring to when you said that "we had no contact with the DB?"  Who was

11     "we?"

12        A.   We of the government from the area.  At least I'm not familiar

13     with this.

14        Q.   And when you say "the government," are you referring to -- just

15     give me a moment.

16        A.   The government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

17        Q.   Were you also referring to the national council which existed

18     before the government?

19        A.   Yes, I was.  As of the 7th of January when the national council

20     was established in 1991 and onwards.

21        Q.   And were you referring to issues concerning the JNA when you

22     stated that you did not know what role the DB had played?

23        A.   No.  The question was about the state security service, and I

24     said what I said.  I said that we had no contacts with them.  As for the

25     JNA, we did have contact with them, with the people who at that time were

Page 6009

 1     in the Sirmium-Baranja region.

 2        Q.   So you were saying that whatever the government or the national

 3     council was engaged in in the SBWS, it had, as far as you were aware, no

 4     contacts with the DB of Serbia?

 5        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

 6        Q.   And putting aside your direct contacts, the government's direct

 7     contacts with the DB, were you also saying that you did not know what

 8     role the DB had played and you had not been told what role they might

 9     have played; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, it is.

11        Q.   Do you stand by that answer today?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   Let me take you to other parts of your statement, P553, please.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Could we go to paragraph 12.

15        Q.   I want to ask you about some of your activities as paragraph 12

16     notes:

17             "As the minister of the interior my first duty was to form the

18     police station in the villages of Borovo Selo and Dalj.  Our task was to

19     find people and to choose those who would work there and also to provide

20     them with uniforms, equipment, vehicles," et cetera.

21             Are you with me, Mr. Bogunovic?

22        A.   I am.

23        Q.   Am I correct that your first duty was an urgent one because of

24     the chaos which existed at that time in parts of the region of SBWS?

25        A.   I did not understand.  I did not understand the question well.

Page 6010

 1        Q.   It was important that you moved quickly to form a police station

 2     in both Borovo Selo and Dalj because civilians of all ethnicities were

 3     being harassed by, let me put it generally, men with guns; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6        Q.   And so your task was an urgent one and your task required

 7     supplies which you didn't at that time possess; is that correct?

 8        A.   It is.

 9        Q.   You were setting up police stations from scratch, if you

10     understand that statement?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And so you --

13        A.   Correct.  That's correct.

14        Q.   And so you looked towards the Novi Sad SUP to provide some of

15     those supplies to enable you to set up police stations; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And the SUP provided some basic supplies to allow you to set up

18     the police stations; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   And at paragraph 13 you state that part of those supplies

21     included guns from the SUP Novi Sad; is that correct?

22        A.   From the warehouse I specified.  That's where we received

23     supplies from.  It belonged to the SUP of Novi Sad.

24        Q.   And were those supplies used by police officers in the police

25     stations that you refer to at paragraph 12 and 14?

Page 6011

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And did those police stations as a general rule bring some law

 3     and order to the SBWS region, or certainly those villages referred to in

 4     your statement?

 5        A.   Yes, they did.  Not only in those villages, but in the villages

 6     surrounding them.

 7        Q.   What specific role did you have once the police stations had been

 8     set up in relation to those police stations?

 9        A.   I wanted the people working for the police to do their work

10     properly and fairly irrespective of the ethnic background of anyone,

11     including those who had violated the law and who acted well beyond what

12     one would consider normal in such circumstances.

13        Q.   Were you then in charge of these police stations?

14        A.   Yes, I was, but they all had their own respective station

15     commanders.  At the ministry I also had a number of associates assisting

16     me in doing everything properly.

17        Q.   On a day-to-day level were you making the operative operational

18     decisions about how the police stations or how the commanders of the

19     police station should work?

20        A.   Yes, together with my staff at the ministry we worked on that.  I

21     had people who had worked for the police for a number of years and who

22     were familiar with many tasks.

23        Q.   Were you attempting to protect only Serbians, or were you trying

24     to protect civilians in general?

25        A.   As I have said a moment ago, it was our duty and obligation to

Page 6012

 1     protect all citizens living there, those who behaved properly, who did

 2     not do anything wrong and lived normally.

 3        Q.   Were you personally in daily or weekly contact with Hadzic at

 4     this time?

 5        A.   Yes, I was.  Perhaps not daily but at least weekly.

 6        Q.   What was his attitude towards the work you were doing?

 7        A.   He never said that something was wrong.  He seemed content with

 8     what I was doing, at least as far as I know.

 9        Q.   Looking at paragraph 14, Mr. Bogunovic, and the first statement

10     there, the first sentence states:

11             "After other areas were freed, there was a need for new stations

12     to be set point up ..."  Then there's a whole list of stations.  What did

13     you mean when you said "after other areas were freed?"  Why did you use

14     the word "freed?"

15        A.   I used the word "freed" because there were parts of that region

16     which were inaccessible to us.  There were barricades, and no movement

17     was possible for civilians and Serbian civilians in particular to move

18     about those parts.

19        Q.   Are you able to pin-point with any accuracy when it was that the

20     villages in the SBWS were freed, as you describe it?  Was there a point

21     in time when the government agreed that the villages had been freed?

22        A.   On the 20th of September, we began liberating such locations, and

23     Vukovar was freed sometime in November, around the 20th of November.

24     That's the period in question.

25        Q.   And so by November or late November, early December, all the

Page 6013

 1     villages had been freed?

 2        A.   Yes, as well as Vukovar.

 3        Q.   When did the JNA leave the region?

 4        A.   The JNA left the region, as far as I recall, towards the end of

 5     1991 or the beginning of 1992.

 6        Q.   And until they left the region, they were in effective command of

 7     the freeing of the villages; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Would you have a look at paragraph 23 of your statement P553,

10     please.  "We didn't notice the presence of the MUP of Serbia in the

11     take-over of the villages.  Everything was led by the army."  Would you

12     agree with me then what you saw and what you observed was the JNA and not

13     the MUP of Serbia involved in freeing the villages?

14        A.   Yes, the military and the Territorial Defence together were

15     liberating the villages.  The military administration ruled over the

16     entire area up to the 23rd of December, as far as I can remember.

17        Q.   The remainder of the paragraph, paragraph 23 states:

18             "Apart from Badza, Zavisic, and perhaps one or two other men, we

19     didn't notice anyone else from MUP there."

20             Would you agree with me that up until --

21        A.   Yes, correct.

22        Q.   Would you agree with me that when Badza arrived, he -- no, let me

23     strike that.  When did Badza arrive in the SBWS region, can you remember?

24        A.   As far as I can remember, it was a long time ago.  That was

25     sometime around mid-August or perhaps even towards the end of August.

Page 6014

 1     Possibly even the beginning of September, but I can't remember.

 2        Q.   Was this around the time you were setting up the police stations?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did Badza come with members of a special unit from the public

 5     security of Serbia?

 6        A.   No.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could you find in the minutes to come a

 8     good time for a break.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes, thank you.

10        Q.   Where did he come from, as far as you understand it?

11        A.   As far as I could understand, he had arrived from Belgrade.

12        Q.   Belgrade is a big place.  What do you mean he came from Belgrade?

13        A.   Well, I mean from the MUP of Serbia.

14        Q.   From what you observed when he arrived, did he assist with

15     providing support to the setting up of the police stations?

16        A.   Well, he did assist, and he told us what we should do to be safe,

17     for all the civilians to be safe, or rather, for all the residents of the

18     area to the safe.

19        Q.   So he moved around the police stations providing that expert

20     advice?

21        A.   Yes.  He did move around the police stations that had been set

22     up.  He did have experience, and he was in a position to assist us.  He

23     was in a position to tell us what to do and how to best go about our

24     business.

25        Q.   Putting aside -- and I'll come to this later, but putting aside

Page 6015

 1     his, from what you've described, somewhat overbearing attitude towards

 2     you and others, was he engaged in providing security to civilians in the

 3     SBWS region in the months after he arrived?

 4        A.   By providing us with instructions and advice and so on and so

 5     forth, one could notice that he wanted to avoid problems in the liberated

 6     areas where the police stations had already been set up.  He wanted

 7     things to be done in accordance with the law, in accordance to how he saw

 8     things should be done.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, if that may be a convenient moment,

10     thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a convenient moment.  We'll have a break and

12     we'll resume at 6.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 5.27 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, at the very beginning of today's

16     session, I referred to some documents which were already admitted into

17     evidence but were nevertheless like to receive a chart.  I do understand

18     that on the transcript it's not audible, at least it doesn't appear that

19     I also mentioned P384 and not only the other ones, therefore it's now on

20     the record.

21             Mr. Jordash, are you ready to proceed?

22             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes, thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

24             MR. JORDASH:

25        Q.   Welcome back, Mr. Bogunovic.  Can I ask you to look again at your

Page 6016

 1     2003 statement, P553, at paragraph 13.  Sorry, paragraph 14.  And the

 2     section I'm interested in is where it says:

 3             "All the equipment that was received came from Novi Sad.  This

 4     included vehicles such as police Puch, four Land Rovers, and several

 5     luxury cars."  Have you found that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Am I correct that the cars or the vehicles which came from Novi

 8     Sad had Serbian licence plates?

 9        A.   As far as I can remember, the vehicles did not have any

10     registration plates at the time.

11        Q.   The vehicles that came from Serbia, none of them had licence

12     plates; is that what you are saying?

13        A.   I don't remember that those vehicles had registration plates.  It

14     was only later that we were provided with a registration plates for those

15     vehicles.

16        Q.   Who provided the registration plates?

17        A.   They arrived from Novi Sad.

18        Q.   And the plates that arrived from Novi Sad had M on them

19     indicating they were coming from Serbia; is that correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And those licence plates were given to all the vehicles that came

22     from Serbia from the Novi Sad SUP?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And those vehicles were given to prominent persons involved this

25     the security of the SBWS; is that correct?  Such as police station

Page 6017

 1     commanders?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And Ilija Kojic had one of those; is that correct?

 4        A.   No, not from that contingent, no.

 5        Q.   Well, what was different about his plate which also, as you told

 6     us, had an M on it?

 7        A.   Yes, but he did not get a vehicle from that contingent.  He did

 8     get M registered plates, a vehicle, but I don't know whether it arrived

 9     from Novi Sad or from Belgrade, and I don't know who from.

10        Q.   But the plate he had was the same as the other plate, but just

11     from a different contingent as you put it; is that correct?

12        A.   The car that he got with registration plates, I don't know who he

13     got it from, but that didn't go through the MUP, or at least, I didn't

14     know about that.

15        Q.   But the registration plate he had was the same as the

16     registration plates relating to the cars from the Novi Sad SUP or

17     different?

18        A.   It was an M registration plate.  I don't know what the numbers

19     were, but the M was exactly the same as on the others.

20        Q.   Right.  And when you said just a moment ago that "it didn't go

21     through the MUP, or at least I didn't know about that," is it correct --

22     is there any reason why you wouldn't have known about that?  Let me put

23     it differently.  Did you know about all the vehicles coming from the SUP

24     from Novi Sad?

25        A.   No.  I signed a receipt for those things that were handed over to

Page 6018

 1     me and I am aware of those vehicles.  I don't know of any others.

 2        Q.   So you were aware of the vehicles which came directly to the

 3     Ministry of the Interior?  That was your remit; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  What I'm saying is that I was in charge of those things

 5     that I took over.  Ilija Kojic's vehicle was not one of those, therefore,

 6     I don't know where it had come from, how it had come to him.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Just give me a moment, please.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Could I ask, please, that we have P554 on the

 9     screen.  And this is your statement of the 8th of February, 2007.  And I

10     want to look at paragraph 25, please, in both the B/C/S and the English.

11        Q.   Your statement says:

12             "The first weapons that were brought and distributed to the

13     Serbian villagers in the SAO SBWS area could not be brought there without

14     the knowledge of the Serbian police.  I do not have any direct

15     information of the involvement of the MUP and the DB in this operation."

16             Do you have that?

17        A.   I'm afraid I didn't hear your question.  Can you repeat?

18        Q.   That wasn't a question yet.  I was just checking whether you had

19     read the relevant paragraph.  Have you read paragraph 25?

20        A.   Just a moment, please.  Yes, I've read it.

21        Q.   How were these weapon -- let me strike that.  When you describe

22     the first weapons being brought into the Serbian villages, which period

23     of time are you referring to approximately?

24        A.   I'm referring to a period after the 2nd of May, 1991.

25        Q.   2nd of May, and when you refer to the early, or sorry, the first

Page 6019

 1     weapons being brought, are you talking about throughout May on to June or

 2     I'm trying to establish what it is you mean about these first weapons and

 3     which period exactly, or approximately?

 4        A.   Before the 1st of May, all we had were hunting rifles and some

 5     people had their own personal weapons.  However, after the 2nd of May and

 6     after the incident in Borovo Selo we received a certain quantity of

 7     weapons from Serbia which arrived in the SBWS.

 8        Q.   And who received the weapons?  When you say "we," who is we?

 9        A.   There were Crisis Staffs in the villages which received whatever

10     arrived, be it weapons, food, or something else.  In other words, there

11     were Crisis Staffs and their commanders, and the commanders and their men

12     received all those things.

13        Q.   And were different Crisis Staffs making their own arrangements to

14     receive these weapons?

15        A.   Please repeat.  The reception is bad so I didn't understand your

16     question.

17        Q.   Sorry, I'm probably speaking too quietly.  Did the different

18     Crisis Staffs make their own arrangements to receive weapons in the

19     period that we are discussing?

20        A.   Well, I can say that things like that did happen.

21        Q.   Well, was there a co-ordination amongst the Crisis Staff to

22     receive weapons, or were there different Crisis Staffs using their own

23     staffs to make arrangements?

24        A.   There were co-ordinated efforts and things were brought to the

25     villages that were threatened and that believed that they had to defend

Page 6020

 1     themselves.

 2        Q.   Were you involved in the co-ordination?

 3        A.   I was the president of the Negoslavci Crisis Staff myself, and I

 4     was one of those who received some of the weapons at one point in time.

 5        Q.   Who did you receive the weapons from?  How did you make the

 6     arrangement?

 7        A.   I can't tell you where the weapons came from.  I didn't know any

 8     of those who had brought the weapons personally.  In any case, the

 9     weapons were taken over in Sid.  All the presidents of the Crisis Staffs

10     were there and then they managed to transport the weapons that they had

11     been issued with in any way they could.

12        Q.   Well, take your mind back to the time when the decision must have

13     been made in your Crisis Staff to obtain weapons from Serbia.  Who made

14     the initial arrangements, or any of the arrangements?

15        A.   The initial arrangements were made by the national council, or

16     rather, its members.  Goran and somebody else were earmarked and

17     appointed to obtain weapons and protect people who were threatened at the

18     time.

19        Q.   And you must have spoken to Goran Hadzic about that, about those

20     arrangements; isn't that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you must have been aware of the weapons arriving and being

23     delivered to your Crisis Staff; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you were vice-president of the national council; isn't that

Page 6021

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And from what you've said, the national council was the -- excuse

 4     me if I'm para-phrasing, but the supervising body arranging the transfer

 5     of these weapons from Serbia to the Crisis Staffs?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And this occurred in May.  Did it also occur in June 1991?

 8        A.   When?

 9        Q.   May of 1991.  Did it also occur in June?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did it occur after June?

12        A.   Yes.  Later we also received a certain quantity of weapons by the

13     military -- from the military rather.

14        Q.   I'll come to that in a minute.  I want to stick with these, how

15     shall I put it, private arrangements with the Crisis Staff before the

16     military get involved.

17             Did that occur after June, the private arrangements with the

18     Crisis Staff?

19        A.   I don't know on how many occasions, but I believe that on three

20     or four different occasions the weapons arrived throughout June, July,

21     thereabouts.

22        Q.   And the weapons -- sorry, let me start that again.

23             Is this right:  The military become involved after July and is

24     that a response -- is that right?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 6022

 1        Q.   And was it your observation that the weapons that had been

 2     supplied prior to the military becoming involved were old weapons or

 3     up-to-date weapons?

 4        A.   The first batches involved old weapons, some of which was

 5     obsolete and no longer used by the police or the military.  Those were

 6     Thompson and the so-called Spagins.  It was only after the military

 7     started arriving that some other and better weapons arrived with them,

 8     like automatic and semi-automatic weapons.

 9        Q.   So you observed at the time that the weapons you were receiving

10     through these private, what I've called private arrangements, were no

11     longer used by the police in the SUP of Novi Sad; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, it is correct.

13        Q.   And are you able to give us an indication of how significant or

14     insignificant the arrival of these old weapons were in terms of arming

15     the population of the Serbian villages in the SBWS?

16        A.   It was important because people felt a degree of safety and

17     security.  However, none of us knew at the time that those weapons were

18     not in a good state of repairs, obsolete.  Had we known at the time what

19     we had received, I'm sure that the feeling would have been different, but

20     at the time we felt safer because we had received weapons, although we

21     didn't know what those weapons were, what they were like.  I believe that

22     actually nobody ever used those weapons ever.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And throughout your time as the vice-president of the

24     national council and through the time of May, June, and July, you did not

25     hear that this had anything to do with the Serbian MUP or the Serbian DB;

Page 6023

 1     is that correct?

 2        A.   Well, no, I really can't say that that had anything to do either

 3     with the MUP or anybody else.  I really don't know where the weapons came

 4     from.  The weapons were rather old, obsolete, I don't know where it

 5     originated from.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Could I ask that we go back to P553, please.  The

 8     witness's first statement.  And paragraph 72.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Do we have paragraph 72.  Page number is easier I

11     am told.  Page 12 of the English and page 13 of the B/C/S.

12        Q.   If would you have a look at 72, please.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   "Later when the JNA came they started distributing weapons.

15     Through the TO they made lists of people, and assigned weapons to them."

16     Could you elaborate on that, please, how this process took place and who

17     it involved?

18        A.   At the time when the JNA arrived, they immediately assumed

19     command of the village.  They provided weapons to the people who they

20     believed were ready and willing to carry arms, who were willing to place

21     themselves under their command and carry out tasks requested of them.

22        Q.   And this was a part of the process of freeing the villages, as

23     you described; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, correct.

25        Q.   And securing them afterwards?

Page 6024

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And was this process controlled by or supervised by the

 3     government or the national council?

 4        A.   None of us could supervise that.  Whatever we asked or required,

 5     there was the military command in place and we couldn't put any questions

 6     or conditions.

 7        Q.   When you say "we couldn't put any questions," are you referring

 8     to the whole national council hierarchy up to Hadzic?

 9        A.   Yes, I am.

10        Q.   Do you know who in the JNA was making the decisions?

11        A.   I'm not certain who made decisions.  I know that the commander at

12     the time was Mrksic, Sljivancanin was with him, and I heard of some other

13     people, although I did not have occasion to speak to them.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Could we go to paragraph 56 of this statement,

16     please.  Or page 10 of the English and page 11 of the B/C/S.

17        Q.   If I can just read quickly:

18             "There were Territorial Defence staffs in the territories that

19     were freed and they were responsible to the minister of defence Ilija

20     Kojic.  He was the one who co-ordinated the Territorial Defence with the

21     JNA.  He was responsible to the government, and he reported to the

22     government.  Ilija Kojic could not do anything without the knowledge of

23     the JNA.  Nothing could be done without the JNA's approval.  He also had

24     no influence over day-to-day operations and had no authority to give

25     instructions to the TO on the ground."

Page 6025

 1             What role did Ilija Kojic play given that limitation?

 2        A.   Ilija Kojic's role was to co-ordinate with TO staffs on behalf of

 3     his ministry to the extent possible at the moment.  As I said already,

 4     nothing could be done without the army, without their decision or orders.

 5     Hence, during that period, he always had to wait for army decisions

 6     before conveying them further.

 7        Q.   Did Kojic have anything to do with distributing the weapons that

 8     were coming from the JNA?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   You said that as if you were very certain.  How are you so

11     certain?  I am not suggesting you are wrong, I'm just asking how you are

12     certain.

13        A.   When the army brought in weapons, they had their own people

14     distributing it.  No one from the national council could be present or

15     decide who the weapons were to be given to.

16        Q.   I don't know if you are able to answer this, but by the time the

17     JNA left, were the Serbian villages comprehensively armed, as you

18     observed?

19        A.   When the JNA left there were many weapons in the Serbian villages

20     and they were well armed.

21        Q.   At paragraph 45, and we can go to it but we may not need to, of

22     this statement, you refer to Kojic having been interfered with by Arkan.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Let us go to it so you can see.  Page 8 of the

24     English and page 9 of the B/C/S.

25        Q.   Let's also deal with the first part of that paragraph since we

Page 6026

 1     are here.  It's with reference to a meeting following the taking over of

 2     Vukovar, and if you need to go back in the statement to get context,

 3     please say so.  This meeting was attended by Vojin Susa, Slavko

 4     Dokmanovic, Miodrag Crnogorac..." and so on.  And then you note:

 5             "Although Arkan was not a member of government, he would

 6     occasionally attend meetings.  It was my impression that he did that in

 7     order to control some of the ministers."  Have you found that?

 8        A.   Yes, I have.

 9        Q.   Am I correct that you never saw Arkan, in fact, issue any orders

10     to the government in meetings?

11        A.   It is correct that he did not issue orders.  He provided

12     suggestions on occasion, but at government sessions, he never issued

13     orders.  Only when there was a meeting in Vukovar, he insisted on some

14     things that had to do with the prisoners, although I cannot recall that

15     precisely.  That was the only time his opinion conflicted however

16     slightly that of those representing the army.

17        Q.   Apart from Hadzic, was Arkan close to any other ministers?

18        A.   I'm not sure whether he was close with any others.  I think he

19     was only close with Goran.  He wasn't so close with the rest of us from

20     the government.  We did occasionally meet and greet, but there were no

21     extensive contact.

22        Q.   In meetings did he appear -- let me start that again.

23             In meetings did ministers other than Hadzic appear to appreciate

24     his presence or tolerated it?

25        A.   I couldn't tell whether they appreciated it or not.  We did

Page 6027

 1     tolerate him, and if he said something, none of us put up much resistance

 2     ever.  We knew he wouldn't take that.  So in a way we co-operated with

 3     him a little, although we did not want any extensive contact.

 4        Q.   Am I correct though that your decisions as the minister of

 5     interior were not dictated to by Arkan?

 6        A.   No, my decisions were not dictated by Arkan.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And going back to paragraph 45:

 8             "He was located," he as in Arkan, "was located 50 metres from the

 9     government building and interfered a lot, primarily with Ilija Kojic,

10     minister of defence."  What form did that interference take?

11        A.   Arkan decided where to go by himself, he had some 2- to 300 of

12     his men.  And frequently he undertook his own activities, the reasons for

13     which were only known to him.  Such orders did not come from the army or

14     anyone else.  I think he did have discussions with Kojic, but he didn't

15     pay much heed to what Kojic did.  I think it was quite the other way.  I

16     think Kojic took what Arkan said much more than Arkan did in case of

17     Ilija.

18        Q.   Why do you use the word "interfere?"

19        A.   Well, I tried to indicate that he was meddling.  I tried to

20     picture a relationship between two people whereby one would try to talk

21     the other into doing something and the other one can oppose or accept.

22        Q.   Can you give any concrete examples?

23        A.   Well, I can say that there was a plan for certain villages which

24     at that time were still occupied to have them freed in one way, whereas

25     Arkan would say that he didn't find that the best way possible and he

Page 6028

 1     wanted to do it the way he saw fit.

 2        Q.   So the JNA would be in charge of the taking over the villages.

 3     Kojic would answer to them and take suggestions from Arkan.  Is that a

 4     fair summary of what you've just said?

 5        A.   No.  The JNA did free the villages, they did.  But Arkan did the

 6     same in some other villages with his men.  The army did not take part in

 7     that, but I say this as -- well, it wasn't always the way Kojic had

 8     envisaged it, but Kojic certainly he could not resist Arkan in trying to

 9     stop him.

10        Q.   Couldn't Kojic call on any armed men of his own to prevent Arkan

11     from approaching it in the way he wanted?

12        A.   No, he couldn't.  I'm certain of that.

13        Q.   Why not?

14        A.   We did not have the power to stop Arkan.  Even certain JNA

15     officers dared not stand up to him.

16        Q.   How many men did the JNA have, do you know that?

17        A.   I can't say how many men they had.  Many.  But I think that they

18     believed if they opposed Arkan, there would be a lot of people hurt and

19     they rather let him do things his own way than have casualties.

20        Q.   So is this correct:  Arkan and his 2- to 300 men promised a

21     bloody battle if anyone stopped him and so the JNA and Kojic and the like

22     chose not to?

23        A.   No direct threats were issued, but he frequently said that was

24     under no obligation to listen to anyone and that he would do things the

25     way he thought them best.

Page 6029

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

 2     sentence of his answer.

 3             MR. JORDASH:

 4        Q.   Could you repeat the last sentence of your answer, Mr. Bogunovic,

 5     please.

 6        A.   I said that he would not have anyone issue orders to him and that

 7     it could mean that there could be a clash resulting in casualties with

 8     people being hurt or killed.

 9        Q.   Isn't it also the case that Arkan was co-operating with senior

10     members of Novi Sad corps?  Do you know about that?

11        A.   I don't know what was the extent of his co-operation with any

12     organs of the Novi Sad corps.  I only know that people from the TO as

13     well as most of those from the army complained that he refused to

14     co-operate and that he refused to undertake co-ordinated activities with

15     the army.  They said he always did things his own way.

16        Q.   Let me ask you about -- just give me a moment.  You know somebody

17     or you knew somebody at the time called Radovan Kostic or Rade Kostic; is

18     that correct?

19        A.   Not at the time, I didn't know Rade Kostic then.

20        Q.   When did you come to know Rade Kostic?

21        A.   Sometime in 1993.

22        Q.   And when you came to know him what were the circumstances?

23        A.   We met in the MUP building of the Sirmium-Baranja region.

24        Q.   So throughout 1991 and 1992, you had no dealings with Rade

25     Kostic; am I correct?

Page 6030

 1        A.   No, I did not.

 2        Q.   He never attended any government meetings?

 3        A.   I don't remember.  At least he didn't introduce himself.

 4        Q.   He didn't give you any orders?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did you see him giving anyone in the government any orders, 1992

 7     and 1991?

 8        A.   I don't recall that person at that time.

 9        Q.   Would you agree with me that it's absolutely ridiculous the idea

10     that Kostic was above everybody in the SBWS government from your

11     experience?

12        A.   As far as I know, yes.  I really don't remember him, and I never

13     saw this man there.

14        Q.   And your experience of him in 1993 was of somebody who might have

15     been collecting information for the Serbian DB at some point in the past?

16        A.   That is possible, but I truly don't know that.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  I notice the time, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is 7.00.  Mr. Bogunovic, we will adjourn

19     for the day.  We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00.  One

20     second.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bogunovic, but I would first like to instruct

23     you that you should not speak with anyone or communicate in any other way

24     with anyone about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've given

25     today or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow.  Is that

Page 6031

 1     clear to you?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll adjourn for the day, and we'll resume

 4     tomorrow the 29th of June -- Tuesday the 29th of June, 9.00 in the

 5     morning in this same courtroom.  We stand adjourned.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.

 7                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day of June,

 8                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.