1 Thursday, 8 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is the case IT-03-69-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 First a few procedural issues.
12 I first would like to establish that we have a videolink at this
13 moment with Belgrade
14 videolink. It is rather exceptional that counsel participates in the
15 proceedings through a videolink. And I see that a representative of the
16 Registry is in Belgrade
17 that you can see and that you can hear me; and second, could you please
18 tell me who, apart from you and Mr. Petrovic, are in the videolink room
19 in Belgrade
20 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
21 Good afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom. Just to confirm
22 on behalf of the Registry that here right me is counsel for
23 Mr. Simatovic, Mr. Vladimir Petrovic, and there is additional technical
24 staff member, next to us, is presently here in the courtroom as well.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 Then we have -- I have to explain that the technical difficulties
2 in having face distortion and, at the same time, to have a videolink, are
3 enormous. It results in that the last 20 minutes of the
4 cross-examination, Mr. Jordash, that instead of a distorted face of the
5 present witness there will be something else but still distorted to be
6 seen. Apart from that, nothing else changes. We tried to overcome all
7 these technical problems. I think I understand 80 per cent of them, but
8 for the last 20 per cent, I'm also in the hands of the technicians.
9 And, of course, for the next witness to come, as -- I'll deal
10 with that in a second, when we start the examination of the next witness.
11 Then I suggest that at this moment we first finish the
12 examination of the witness who is waiting at this moment.
13 Could the witness be brought into the courtroom. That is,
14 Witness JF-050.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness JF-050. Can you hear me in
17 a language you understand?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Witness JF-050.
20 I would like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn
21 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that you
22 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 Mr. Jordash, who I had forgotten to introduce to you when he
24 started his cross-examination, but Mr. Jordash is counsel for
25 Mr. Stanisic, will now continue his cross-examination.
1 Mr. Jordash, are you ready?
2 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes, thank you.
3 WITNESS: JF-050 [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. I don't have many more questions.
9 Firstly let me just ask you about Erdut and the camp there very
10 quickly. Am I correct that there was discipline within the camp?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And were men within the camp permitted to move around the camp
13 with loaded weapons?
14 A. No. Only officers with pistols.
15 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me that, from what you saw,
16 there were no crimes against civilians committed within the camp when you
17 were there?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. MARCUS: Objection, Your Honours. Crimes is a legal
20 qualification. Perhaps Mr. Jordash can specify what acts he is asking
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash --
23 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I'll --
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- you'll follow that suggestion.
25 MR. JORDASH: I will follow it, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do.
2 MR. JORDASH:
3 Q. Did you observe, Mr. Witness, any civilians being beaten on the
4 camp at Erdut?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you observe any prisoners being ill-treated within the camp
7 at Erdut?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were there in fact any prisoners at the camp in Erdut, or was it
10 just the men --
11 A. Well, mostly they were sort of partisans. Whether they were
12 prisoners, I don't really know.
13 Q. Okay. Did you see any partisans killed or injured in the Erdut
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you. Now I want to return to your first statement, P570.
17 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, page 12 of the English and 15 of the
18 B/C/S. Perhaps I -- can ask you, can this be brought up on e-court. We
19 can still do that, I think.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but not to be shown to the public.
21 MR. JORDASH: Not to be shown to the public.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, P570, I think it was.
23 MR. JORDASH:
24 Q. While that's being done let me ask you this, Mr. Witness. In
25 mid-March 1996, you and Arkan's Men or this particular group of
1 Arkan's Men arrived at Dzeletovci; is that correct?
2 Did you hear me?
3 A. I don't know that.
4 Q. Was there a point in time when you came to a camp in -- in -- in
5 and around the same region, a group called the Skorpions were based?
6 A. That was in Dzeletovci, up there.
7 Q. And the two camps, the camp of the Tigers and the Super Tigers
8 were separate to the camp of the Skorpions; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. The Skorpions had their own base and the others were put up
10 in the nearby houses.
11 Q. And were the two groups operating separately, from what you
13 A. As far as that, we went to the restaurant up there and had lunch
14 and dinner over there.
15 Q. Well, you had lunch and dinner with the Skorpions or some of the
16 Skorpions? You shared the same restaurant facilities?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And apart from sharing the restaurant facilities, were the two
19 groups operating separately?
20 A. Well, no, they would sit around in the same restaurant but at
21 different tables.
22 Q. So there wasn't any mixing during meal times between the two
23 groups; is that correct?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And was there any mixing outside of the restaurant? Were there
1 any joint operations, for example?
2 A. No.
3 Q. How long was it that the two groups were located relatively close
4 to each other?
5 A. Well, we were there before we left for Serbia.
6 Q. How -- how long was Arkan's Tigers and Super Tigers there?
7 A. I can't remember how long.
8 Q. Was it several months, from March of 1996 to approximately --
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. Less than a month, within the month of March 1996?
11 A. I think more than a month.
12 Q. But less than two.
13 A. I can't remember exactly. I just know that we were there until
14 we left for Serbia
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could all the unnecessary microphones please be
16 switched off. Thank you.
17 MR. JORDASH:
18 Q. Did -- do you know why it was that the two groups sat separately
19 in the restaurant? Was there instructions to the Tigers and the
20 Super Tigers not to mix with the Skorpions?
21 A. I don't know. All I know is that the Tigers followed a different
22 discipline than the Skorpions.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, most likely unnecessary to remind that
24 you that we earlier discussed 1996 as a time-frame which was not within
25 the indictment. Not to say that it never could have any relevance, but
1 we're going into quite some detail now.
2 MR. JORDASH: I'd finished with that, Your Honour. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. JORDASH:
5 Q. When you gave evidence previously --
6 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, page -- sorry, Your Honours,
7 Exhibit P572, page 18409.
8 Q. You were asked at page 18408 this question:
9 "While in your opinion Dzeletovci, did you form some conclusions
10 from your observations about whether Arkan had any connection with the
12 And you answered:
13 "Well, for example, on one occasion when we were going back from
14 Dzeletovci, when we cut down the forest for Arkan's bridge there, we
15 encountered two policemen. They were wearing uniforms. And at that --
16 and we stopped and asked whether we had anything to do with the commander
17 because he had a package for the commander. He took up his Motorola and
18 called 99, which was their commander's signal, the connection
19 communication, and sent two vehicles and took off, took away the package
20 towards Dzeletovci."
21 Do you remember that evidence?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That -- that -- that description of an event with policemen,
24 there was nothing, was there, outside of that experience that suggested
25 that this had anything to do with anyone other than policemen. Do you
1 follow my query?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Were you confusing Belgrade DB with policemen at this point when
4 you answered that query in the trial you gave evidence in before?
5 A. No. As far as that is concerned, Mr. Padobranac said state
6 security. I didn't know who they were or what they were.
7 Q. Well, this is a different incident, I think, to the
8 March /April 1996 incident where there was a shipment for Arkan. This is
9 a different incident. This is an incident you describe concerning a
11 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, perhaps my colleague Mr. Jordash could
12 clarify whether in fact this is a different incident or the same incident
13 first, since it is the witness's evidence.
14 MR. JORDASH: Well, it is in his evidence in the other trial,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's do the following. Let's describe the
17 two incidents briefly. You've done that with the one and you do that
18 with the other, and then ask the witness whether he was talking about the
19 same or about different incidents.
20 MR. JORDASH: Let me read on.
21 Q. So the first -- an incident is described by you in relation to a
22 package which arrived for Arkan. Do you remember that?
23 A. Yes, I do remember that.
24 Q. And then picking up on page 18409, you are then asked this
1 "Are you also aware of an incident in March or April of 1996,
2 shortly before you left for Belgrade
3 arrived for Arkan in a refrigerated truck? "
4 And you answered yes.
5 Okay? Do you remember that?
6 A. I can't remember. Perhaps I said that, but I can't remember.
7 Q. The incident with the package which arrived for Arkan is
8 separate, is it not, to the incident where there's a -- a shipment of
9 something that you think are arms in March or April of 1996. We're
10 talking about two different things, aren't we?
11 A. Yes, I understand what you're saying; but, as I say, I can't
13 Q. You can't remember what? What can't you remember?
14 A. The second incident.
15 Q. The incident with the arms. You don't remember --
16 A. That's right. Because you were talking about two vehicles, and I
17 can't remember that.
18 Q. Do you remember an incident where there's a package and it
19 arrives and it's for Arkan, and the two policemen delivered the package
20 and it was for Arkan. Do you remember that incident?
21 A. Yes, I remember that.
22 Q. Right. That's a different thing to when this arms shipment came
23 later on, isn't it?
24 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, my apologies to my colleague. If you
25 look at this statement on page 12, the -- the incidents are quite
1 similar, so the references which my colleagues is choosing could relate
2 to either as well. Just -- I just want to be sure that the witness is
3 not confused as to what is being asked of him.
4 MR. JORDASH: I --
5 JUDGE ORIE: That confusion should be avoided, we would all agree
6 on that.
7 MR. JORDASH: Let me try to again, then, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. JORDASH: I don't want to lose too much time because I'm not
10 sure it's that significant. But ...
11 Q. Do you remember -- I'm not trying to catch you out. There's no
12 trick here. I don't dispute your description of this incident with the
13 package and the policemen. So just try to focus.
14 Was there a time when two policemen delivered a package, said it
15 was for Arkan, and delivered it to Arkan?
16 A. Yes, I remember that.
17 Q. Was there a separate incident when a shipment of some form of
18 arms or ammunition arrived and was delivered to Arkan?
19 A. No. I don't remember that. All I remember is that the weapons
20 were loaded up and that Arkan handed over the weapons. That weapons
21 arrived for him, I don't remember that.
22 Q. When the package was brought by the two policemen was Padobranac
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was that the same incident when weapons were loaded up and Arkan
1 handed over the weapons?
2 A. No. Those are two different incidents.
3 Q. All right. Let's just leave aside the weapons, okay? I don't
4 want to talk about that incident.
5 A. All right.
6 Q. Let's just talk about when the policemen delivered the package.
7 Am I correct there was nothing in that incident which you saw
8 that had anything to do with the DB?
9 A. I don't remember what was in the package. I just know that the
10 commander was told that there was a package for him and they went off to
11 fetch it.
12 Q. So, apart from the police officers, and apart from the commander,
13 and apart from Arkan, did this have anything to do with anyone else or
14 any other organisation, such as the DB?
15 A. I don't know. I heard that it was the state security from this
16 man Padobranac. Now whether it was or wasn't, I have absolutely no idea.
17 Q. Okay, let's move on.
18 Could I -- before we do, could I suggest that Padobranac was not
19 present during that incident and that you've added that detail today for
20 the first time.
21 A. Padobranac just called the commander up, using the 99 number,
22 saying there was a package for him, and they went off to Dzeletovci to
23 fetch it.
24 Q. Okay. Let's -- let's move on.
25 You gave evidence -- you -- I beg your pardon. Let's start that
2 You were interviewed a second time by the Prosecution.
3 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, P571.
4 Q. Is this right, in 1999; do you remember that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And at this point for the first time you were interviewed by
7 Vladimir Dzuro, an investigator for the Prosecution; do you remember
9 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, that's not the first time, with due
11 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, could I just have a moment, please.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1998 for the first time.
13 MR. JORDASH:
14 Q. To save time, I think I might have missed this. Was Dzuro
15 involved in the first -- yes, he was. Okay. Thank you.
16 Now in that statement -- in the second statement, you note at
17 page 2 of the English and 2 of the B/C/S that a man called Goran Bozovic
18 - last paragraph - aka Raza, who had a position with the state security,
19 or DB, was a frequent visitor to Arkan at his party headquarters in
21 How did you come to observe that, or learn about that?
22 A. Because I saw him at Arkan's. He came to the bakery and so on.
23 Q. But how did you know his name?
24 A. I heard from others, because he was in uniform all the time. He
25 wore a police uniform, the blue kind.
1 Q. And how did you know he had a position with the State Security of
3 A. That's what people said, that it was state security. And when he
4 came to get some bread from the bakery, they had to know who he was, and
5 they always had to supply fresh bread, and he never waited in line.
6 Q. So he had some sort of privileged treatment in the bakery. Is
7 that what you observed?
8 A. Yes. Mostly he was sort of a big boss, if I could put it that
9 way. So everybody was more than ready to help him out.
10 Q. Well, who -- who told you, though, he was a member of the DB?
11 A. Arkan's security, providing security for the party and the
13 Q. No one other than his -- his security told you that, then?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How many times did you see him, do you think?
16 A. A couple of times, when there were football matches and things
17 like that.
18 Q. So just the twice.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What's the football match got to do with it?
21 A. Well, when a football match was over, they would go to Arkan's
22 place, things like that.
23 Q. Sorry, where did you see Bozovic? Was it at the bakery; was it
24 at a football match; was it both? Could you just be specific, the two
25 times you saw him, please.
1 A. I saw him both in the bakery and in the Ara Cake Shop.
2 Q. Right. And am I correct --
3 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps we can pull this up on e-court, not to be
4 shown to the public. P571.
5 Q. I want to just remind you of something in your statement of 1999.
6 Do you remember being shown a list of -- or a number of colour
7 photographs of various persons and identifying those -- some of those
9 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, page 6 --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You were shown photographs and video stills; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now I want you to cast your mind back to this process, where you
14 were shown photographs and stills. You were shown some photographs and
15 you didn't recognise the people in the photographs, did you? Some you
16 recognised; some you did not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You were shown some video stills. Some you recognised; some you
19 did not?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When you were shown photographs or stills and you did not
22 recognise the people, did the investigator make notes of those you didn't
24 A. I don't know about any notes.
25 Q. Was the investigator making notes as you went through the
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You -- do you remember this: Do you -- you didn't see, as far as
4 you knew, from the photographs or the stills the man you thought was
5 Bozovic. Am I right?
6 A. Rajo Bozovic, it's as if I'm looking at him now, standing in
7 front of me, in a blue uniform.
8 Q. So as far as you're concerned, because unless I've missed it, and
9 maybe I have, but in your statement, there's no -- there's a list of --
10 there's a big list of different people that you recognised from
11 photographs and stills of people associated with Arkan, but Bozovic
12 doesn't appear in that list.
13 So you don't recall - is this right? - ever being shown a
14 photograph or a still of the man you thought was Bozovic and saying,
15 That's him, that's Bozovic, I recognise him, he was in the bakery.
16 Am I right? It's not in your statement. It's not a trick. It's
17 just not in your statement that you identified somebody called --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
19 MR. JORDASH: Sorry.
20 JUDGE ORIE: What is in the statement, if -- a recognition of a
21 photograph showing a person which this witness thought was Mr. Bozovic,
22 whether true or not, then we could read that the statement, isn't it.
23 MR. JORDASH: The point I'm trying to get at, Your Honour, is
24 this, that we -- we presume in the Defence that it is logical to presume
25 that this witness was shown a photograph of Bozovic.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that's an assumption. But I am afraid
2 there are two possibilities -- well, there are several.
3 Could the witness take off his earphones for a second.
4 Witness JF-050, could you take off your earphones for a second?
5 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: But, first, Witness JF-050, do you speak or
7 understand the English language?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand English. No, I don't
9 understand English and I don't speak English.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could you take off your earphones for a
12 Mr. Jordash.
13 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you are considering whether
15 such a photograph was shown. Now, there are two -- there's several
16 possibilities. The one that it was shown to him, that he recognised him
17 as Bozovic but it was not recorded, or that it was shown to him and he
18 did not recognise Mr. Bozovic, which was then not recorded.
19 Now the other possibility is that the -- no photograph of
20 Mr. Bozovic was shown to him and then there's still two options that he,
21 for that reason, did not recognise that person as Bozovic or that, by
22 mistake, someone who was not Mr. Bozovic in the photograph. So no
23 photograph Bozovic shown to him, that he nevertheless would have
24 recognised wrongly that other person.
25 Now, if you think that by this line of question -- questioning
1 that you can resolve this matter, fine. Until now, it seems to me that
2 there are so many uncertainties which the witness cannot know that it's
3 almost impossible. But convince me of the contrary, if you think you
5 But that's what came to my mind --
6 MR. JORDASH: To be -- to are perfectly frank, I was
7 cross-examining at this point more on the issue of non-disclosure that
8 the witness could assist in, for example, by --
9 JUDGE ORIE: I see the point. If a non-recognition is not
10 recorded in a statement that is an important matter. The question,
11 however, to what extent this witness could finally tell us what was --
12 what was -- he told us that some he recognised, others he did not
13 recognise. So what you then have to know exactly is what was shown to
14 him, and the witness may not be in a position to tell us that.
15 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I completely agree and I probably took
16 it further than I meant to.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness put on his earphones again.
18 MR. JORDASH: But --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, Mr. Jordash -- the 20 minutes are well
20 done, isn't it.
21 MR. JORDASH: I've finished. I do want to, if I may, just elicit
22 a description from this witness of -- of -- of --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Fine.
24 MR. JORDASH: -- of Bozovic.
25 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the last question, please, ask him.
1 MR. JORDASH:
2 Q. Could you describe the man you say you saw that was Bozovic,
3 allegedly a member of the DB, please.
4 A. Well, he was short, had a round face, wore a beret. He could
5 have been about 42 or 43 years old, approximately. And I know that later
6 on he was killed in Serbia
7 Q. How do you know later on he was killed in Serbia?
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 Q. How do you know he was killed in Serbia?
10 A. Because I saw it on TV.
11 Q. Okay. So the man you saw on TV -- did you see him on TV, the man
12 who was killed?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So how do you know it was the same man?
15 A. Well, because they said that Rajo Bozovic was killed, the chief
16 security -- state security person in Serbia.
17 Q. Okay. I think we've probably taken it as far as we can.
18 Can I just put the case on this that I suggest to you you didn't
19 see Bozovic wearing a blue uniform in the bakery or otherwise.
20 A. I'm 100 percent sure that I did.
21 Q. And for your information, Bozovic is still alive; do you know
23 A. I don't know. I just heard it from you now.
24 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Witness. No further
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
2 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I would like to raise at some point -
3 I don't know if now is convenient or later - the issue of non-disclosure.
4 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, let's -- first of all, you took
5 quite a bit of extra time. Let's first see that we can finish the
6 witnesses today and the non-disclosure, or at least the disclosure issue,
7 or the disclosure or non-disclosure issue can be raised then at a later
9 Any need to re-examine the witness, Ms. Marcus?
10 MS. MARCUS: Very briefly, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm looking at the parties. The commitment is
12 there that the next witness can conclude his testimony today, is that
13 still ...
14 I'm looking at you Mr. Weber.
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'm going to try to finish him within
16 the 40-minute estimate that we provided to you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Defence knows what time is available.
18 Ms. Marcus, please proceed.
19 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Could I ask the Court Officer to please call up Exhibit P573 but
21 not to display it to the public. Because the document contains English
22 and B/C/S on the same page, it can just be shown one version to the
23 witness. Could I please ask for page 2, the second row.
24 Re-examination by Ms. Marcus:
25 Q. JF-050, we're looking at your proofing note, as you see. In the
1 second row what you said was:
2 "I saw Franko Simatovic on several occasions in Belgrade
3 and thereafter. I recall seeing him sitting with Arkan, and with Arkan's
4 best man, several times in Belgrade
5 Arkan in Belgrade
6 Tigers calling him that."
7 On how many occasions would you say you heard Arkan's Tigers
8 refer to a visitor as Frenki?
9 A. Well, quite a few times, a couple of times.
10 MS. MARCUS: No further questions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Marcus.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has no further questions.
14 Have the questions in re-direct triggered any need for further
16 Mr. Petrovic.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good afternoon.
18 First of all, I would like to greet the Trial Chamber and everyone in the
19 courtroom. And once again, thank you for allowing the Defence of Mr.
20 Simatovic this procedure, and I would appreciate if I may remain seated
21 while I'm addressing you because of the technical set-up here in the
22 offices. So if I may, I would just like to remain seated when I'm
23 addressing you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What I'd, first of all, would like to know is
25 whether you want to put any further questions to the witness triggered by
1 the re-direct of Ms. Marcus.
2 Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. And, of course, we --
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We might not see your head anymore if you stand, so,
5 therefore, it is totally understandable that you want to remain seated.
6 Mr. Jordash.
7 MR. JORDASH: No, thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then this concludes the evidence of Witness JF-050.
9 Witness JF-050, I would like to thank you very much for coming to
10 The Hague
11 the parties and by this Bench. You are excused. I wish you a safe
12 return home.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, and farewell.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ORIE: In relation to the next witness, I'd like to put the
16 following on the record.
17 Due to some technical challenges with having voice distortion and
18 a videolink at the same time, the Chamber has decided, after having
19 consulted the parties informally, that it will hear the testimony of the
20 next witness, JF-025, provisionally in private session and without face
21 and voice distortion. At a later stage the transcripts or portions
22 thereof will be made public. When I say "transcripts" that excludes,
23 therefore, video and audio.
24 I already now invite the parties to file a joint submission no
25 later than the 16th of July indicating which portions of today's
1 transcript can be made public. The Chamber would not even oppose when
2 you already indicate during the examination of the witness where you
3 would later seek portions to remain non-public and then other portions to
4 be public again which might assist you in preparing for the submissions.
5 And I'm addressing all parties in this respect.
6 I also want to clarify that this measure is provisional and
7 purely for practical reasons and should not be understood as a recision,
8 variation or augmentation of the existing protective measures.
9 Finally, since we'll move into private session soon but since the
10 testimony or parts thereof will be made public at a later stage, the
11 Chamber instructs the Prosecution, in case the 92 ter motion for this
12 witness is granted, to file a summary informing the public of the
13 witness's previous testimony. We'll be in private session. Only if we
14 would still have time at the end of today in open session, then, of
15 course, we could invite you then to read that summary in open session as
16 we usually do. But if there's no time for that, you're invited to file
17 that summary.
18 Then, finally, before we start hearing the testimony of the
19 witness, we'll go into private session anyhow, but I'd first like to deal
20 with a procedural matter before we start the examination of
21 Witness JF-025.
22 Can we move into private session.
23 [Private session]
11 Page 6234 redacted. Private session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then I think nothing opposes anymore the
10 witness to be brought in.
11 Mr. Weber, is my understanding correct, that you will examine the
13 MR. WEBER: That is correct.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I meanwhile already invite Madam Registrar
15 to assign numbers, if only now for herself, for the associated exhibits
16 which are 65 ter number 4; 65 ter number 7; 65 ter number 9; 65 ter 28;
17 65 ter 30; 65 ter 116; 65 ter 596.1; 65 ter 648; 65 ter 649.
18 There are others on it's list but they have been either already
19 admitted or have received numbers in relation to Witness JF-050.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness JF -- let's wait.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness JF-025. Can you hear me --
24 apparently you can hear me in a language you understand.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Before you given evidence in this court, the Rules
2 require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out
3 to you. I would like to invite to you make that solemn declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Witness JF-025.
7 Witness JF-025, I would like to explain to you some details as
8 far as the protective measures. You have been granted face distortion,
9 voice distortion and pseudonym which means no one will see your face, no
10 one will hear your voice and we will not use your own name. And whatever
11 is said which is at a risk to identify you will be kept confidential.
12 Now for very practical reasons, that is, that one counsel is in
14 testimony in private session which means that even the content of your
15 testimony will not be known to the public. However, at a later stage,
16 still without showing your face or giving your voice to the public and
17 still without mentioning your name, the content of your testimony will be
18 made public after we've finished this hearing.
19 You'll first now be examined by Mr. Weber. Mr. Weber is counsel
20 for the Prosecution.
21 You may proceed.
22 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours. Could I please have the
23 Court Officer hand the witness the pseudonym sheet.
24 WITNESS: JF-025
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Examination by Mr. Weber:
2 Q. JF-025, could you please look at the pseudonym sheet that is now
3 before you. Does your name and date of birth appear on this document?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Directing your attention to the lower portion of the document
6 before you, do you recognise the terms on the sheet?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do these terms accurately indicate locations, dates, or persons
9 known to you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you previously testify before this Tribunal on the date
12 indicated on your pseudonym sheet?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you please refer to these terms as you did during the
15 course of your previous testimony?
16 Do you understand, JF-025?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. WEBER: At this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 5384 into
19 evidence. It's the pseudonym sheet.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Usually we only have one version but there are
21 two versions here.
22 MR. WEBER: There should be only one version which is the version
23 uploaded in e-court, unless I'm mistaken.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I mean only version we have in front of us at this
1 MR. WEBER: There is the pseudonym sheet in this case, but also
2 uploaded under 5381 is the pseudonym sheet from his previous testimony,
3 so the Chamber would have before it both pseudonym sheets.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine, but I find only an English of all
5 these things, where the witness is supposed to say that this accurately
6 depicts -- so therefore I don't know whether you -- do you read English?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And may I then take it that you have verified on the
9 basis of this English text that the description reflects what it then
10 says are the locations, the persons and the dates?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That clarifies the matter for me, Mr. Weber. Please
13 proceed -- no.
14 Madam Registrar, could assign a number to 65 ter 5384.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Just for the record, Your Honour, with your
16 leave, I will just say that previously read 65 ter numbers are assigned
17 with a P exhibit numbers P602 through P610. And pseudonym sheet 5384
18 becomes Exhibit P611, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. P611 is admitted into
21 MR. WEBER: Could we please have that admitted under seal.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's admitted under seal.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. JF-025, have you had the opportunity, prior to testifying here
25 today, to review your previous testimony in your own language?
1 A. Yes, I have.
2 Q. Did you have an opportunity to make any corrections or
3 clarifications with respect to your previous testimony?
4 A. I did.
5 Q. If you were asked the same questions that you were asked during
6 your previous testimony, would you provide the same answers?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. WEBER: At this time, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 5383,
9 the previous testimony of the witness, pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? No, Mr. Jordash.
11 Mr. Petrovic.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit 612, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P612 is admitted into evidence, under seal. I take
16 it since portions are in private session.
17 MR. WEBER: That's correct, there's closed session testimony
18 contained therein.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, P612, admitted under seal.
20 MR. WEBER: At this time, the Prosecution tenders P602 to P610,
21 marked for identification, along with 65 ter 5381, which is the pseudonym
22 sheet uploaded from the previous testimony. We are tendering P602 to
23 P610 as public exhibits and 65 ter 5381 under seal.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll take the same order. 65 ter 4 is
25 then P602.
1 MR. WEBER: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And then 65 ter 7, P603. 65 ter 9, P604. 65 ter
3 28, 605. 65 ter 30, P606. 65 ter 116, P607. 65 ter 596.1, which is a
4 different clip from the video which is already admitted into evidence as
5 P596, but it's -- it's the same video but a different clip. That is then
6 P608. 65 ter 648, P609. 65 ter 649, P610. All admitted into evidence,
7 as public exhibits.
8 Then 65 ter 5381, Madam Registrar, that would be number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P613, under seal,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P613 is admitted under seal.
12 Madam Registrar, I take it that you have verified, when I was
13 reading the numbers, that I did not make a mistake.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, just so we have it in the record, also
16 associated to this witness's previous testimony are 65 ter 645; 65 ter
17 646; and Prosecution admitted exhibit, P31. These documents have either
18 been previously admitted or previously tendered.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They have received numbers already.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. WEBER:
22 Q. JF-025, you state on page 18024 of Exhibit P612, that:
23 "I went to his ice-cream parlor and waited for transportation to
24 take me to Erdut."
25 When you say "his ice-cream parlor," whose ice-cream parlor are
1 you referring to?
2 A. Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan's.
3 Q. Where is Arkan's ice-cream parlor located?
4 A. Near his house.
5 Q. Which is located where?
6 A. Not far from the Red Star stadium, in Belgrade.
7 Q. On the same page, you state that you met one of Arkan's
8 body-guards at the ice-cream parlor. Do you know the name of this
10 A. I know his nickname. It is Macak. I don't know his name.
11 Q. On page 18026 of Exhibit P612, you described your training in
12 Erdut. You indicate that recruits were issued a fire-arm when they
13 arrived at the centre. What type of fire-arm did you receive?
14 A. An automatic rifle of Zastava make.
15 Q. How many recruits were in your training platoon?
16 A. About 30.
21 Q. How many members of the SDG were billeted in Erdut during your
23 A. About 150, as far as I know.
24 Q. Where did members of the SDG come from. I'm asking if you can
25 please identify an area from the former Yugoslavia. Or areas.
1 A. From Croatia
2 Q. Was there a greater percentage of members of Arkan's Tigers that
3 were from one of these areas?
4 A. From Serbia
5 Q. Who were the commanders of the Erdut centre when you went through
7 A. At the time, Puki and Peja.
8 Q. Were any of Arkan's Men prisoners before joining the SDG?
9 A. Most of them or a certain number were in prison.
10 Q. Were there any arrangements with members of the SDG who were
11 previously prisoners before joining the unit?
12 A. I don't know specifically, but I did hear that some of them had
13 exchanged prison for doing service with Arkan.
14 Q. What specifically here did you about -- what did you hear about
15 in exchange?
16 A. One year working with Arkan for two years in prison.
17 Q. Who did you hear about this arrangement from?
18 A. People from my platoon told me.
6 Q. How were members of the SDG disciplined?
7 A. Mostly they were punished.
8 Q. Could you please provide us with any examples of punishment that
9 were administered to members of the Serbian Volunteer Guard?
10 A. They would tie them to a pole and beat them with a baton of some
11 kind. Then they were in prison, put in prison and then made to run with
12 a stone tied to their leg.
13 Q. When you say "they would tie them to a pole," what type of pole
14 are you referring to?
15 A. A flag pole, a mast.
16 Q. And you say that they would be disciplined by tying them to this
17 flag pole and beating them. What type of infractions would be
18 disciplined in this way?
19 A. Well, for serious infractions, such as drinking alcohol, for
21 Q. And you also mentioned that members of the SDG were disciplined,
22 and on page 31, line 12, you said:
23 "Then they were in prison, put in prison ..."
24 Could you please describe what you mean by that?
25 A. Well, it was a small hut where people would spend two or three
1 days without food, or very little food.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P605 shown
9 to the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Since you're moving to a new subject, Mr. Weber, I
11 don't know how much time you would need for that because it would be time
12 for a break.
13 MR. WEBER: I -- actually 15 more questions in my examination.
14 JUDGE ORIE: 15 more questions --
15 MR. WEBER: I can finish very shortly after the break.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm just wondering whether this would be a
17 suitable moment for the break or whether --
18 MR. WEBER: Sure.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then I already would invite the usher to escort the
21 We'll have a break for half an hour, Witness.
22 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
23 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 We will have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes past
3 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, please proceed.
7 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P605 shown
8 to the witness.
9 Q. JF-025, this is the photograph that you were previously shown on
10 pages 18045 to 18046 of Exhibit P612. Do you recognise the type of
11 automatic rifle being held by the individuals who you identified as
12 wearing uniforms belonging to Arkan's Guards?
13 A. Yes, that's right. That's the Zastava-manufactured automatic
15 Q. With respect to the Tiger with the Zolja hand-held
16 rocket-launcher, do you recognise the patch being worn on his right arm?
17 A. It had the patch saying "Arkan's Guards."
18 Q. When did you receive the Zolja rocket-launchers prior to the
19 attack on Bijeljina?
20 A. About half an hour before we set out.
21 Q. How were you provided with these rocket-launchers?
22 A. Well, a truck came and we were all issued two.
23 Q. Returning your attention back to the photograph, are these the
24 same or different types of uniforms that were worn during your operations
25 in Bijeljina?
1 A. Well, officers had uniforms like that. We had green uniforms,
2 just one colour.
3 Q. So it is clear, what type of uniforms did the officers wear?
4 A. Camouflage.
5 Q. On pages 18040 to 18041 of Exhibit P612, you approximate that
6 there were around 45 casualties as a result of the attack in Bijeljina.
7 What ethnicity were these casualties?
8 A. Well, they were mixed, but mostly Muslim, as far as I know.
9 Q. Were any members of Arkan's Tigers injured during the attack on
11 A. Yes, two.
12 Q. Could you please describe the resistance, if any, that you
13 encountered during the attack on Bijeljina?
14 A. There wasn't any great resistance. There were individual cases
15 of shooting from a few buildings.
16 Q. Did any of the Muslim civilian population of Bijeljina leave the
17 town because of the attack?
18 A. Well, whoever could leave, left.
19 Q. After the attack on Bijeljina, between the 31st or 1st of --
20 31st of March or 1st of April, 1992, to the 3rd of April, 1992
21 believe the transcript is recording 1993 -- were any members of
22 Arkan's Tigers sent elsewhere in Bosnia?
23 A. A group of our group, those of us who were there were sent to
24 Zvornik. To Zvornik.
25 Q. Approximately how many Arkan's Tigers were sent to Zvornik from
2 A. About 20.
10 Q. On page 18043 of Exhibit P612, you state that you encountered
11 border police when travelling between Bijeljina and Erdut. Could you
12 please describe the uniforms being worn by these police?
13 A. Ordinary blue-grey uniforms.
14 Q. On page 18047 of Exhibit P612, you indicate that members of the
15 SDG possessed identification. What was this identification used for by
16 members of the Serbian Volunteer Guard?
17 A. Well, when they asked for IDs.
18 Q. When who asked for IDs?
19 A. Well, mostly the police, or the military police would ask for
20 your identification.
21 Q. Does this include the police that you were referring to in your
22 previous testimony as border police?
23 A. That's right, yes.
24 Q. What would occur when either yourself or members of
25 Arkan's Tigers who were in your presence showed these IDs to the police?
1 A. We'd be given free passage. We'd be allowed to pass.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MR. WEBER: No further questions for the witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber.
5 Which Defence will start cross-examining the witness? It will be
6 you, Mr. Jordash?
7 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness JF-025, you will now be cross-examined by
9 Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
10 MR. JORDASH: I beg your pardon, Your Honour, could I just
11 consult with my colleague.
12 Thank you.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
15 MR. JORDASH: May we have P611 on the e-court, please.
16 [Defence counsel confer]
17 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I'm looking for the ICTY statement.
18 MR. WEBER: If I could assist counsel. The Prosecution -- it was
19 not included as part of his 92 ter materials. We have uploaded it under
20 65 ter 5382 and it is available in e-court.
21 MR. JORDASH: Thank you very much, Mr. Weber. Thank you.
22 Apologies. Could we have 65 ter 358 -- 532, please. 65 ter 532.
23 MR. WEBER: It's 5382.
24 MR. JORDASH: 5382. I thought it was.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please switch off his
1 microphone when not using it. Thank you.
2 MR. JORDASH:
3 Q. Have a look at the first sheet, Mr. Witness, just to confirm that
4 this is your statement which you gave to the Prosecution in 1999.
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. I just want to go through the statement and ask you some points
7 of clarification.
8 MR. JORDASH: Could we go to the --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, it is still not an exhibit. It may
10 well be that you only want to use it or read certain parts of it, but
11 should be -- no, the video will not be shown to the public. So, finally,
12 there's no risk by not mentioning that it should not be shown to the
13 public because it will not be shown to the public. The video will remain
14 non-public. I apologise for interrupting.
15 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Could we go to page 2 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S,
17 please. Actually, page 3 of the English and page 3 of the B/C/S.
18 Q. Just looking at the paragraph there, Mr. Witness, which starts
20 "One night when I arrived back at my relative's house, I was told
21 that the military police had been to the house around midnight looking
22 for me."
23 Do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And in that paragraph, you -- the statement notes:
1 "As I did not want to join the JNA, I went to a friend's house in
3 paramilitary group Arkan's Tigers, showing pictures of smartly dressed
4 soldiers and Arkan himself with a tiger."
5 What was it, Mr. Witness, which made you prefer to join
6 Arkan's Tigers than join the JNA?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please switch off the
8 microphone when not using it. Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't really know.
10 Probably the training and the capabilities required.
11 MR. JORDASH:
12 Q. How --
13 A. And the money too.
14 Q. Well, put your mind back to when you saw the TV advert. Why
15 didn't you want to joined JNA, an established military formation with a
16 degree of legitimacy to it?
17 A. Yes, that's right. But I thought that the JNA was not doing well
18 and that there was no reason for me to go to the battle-front.
19 Q. Didn't you expect to go to the battle-front joining
20 Arkan's Tigers?
21 A. Well, I expected to complete my training and to leave
22 Arkan's Tigers.
23 Q. So you went to Arkan's Tigers, then, because you expected the
24 training to be particularly specialised. Is that one reason?
25 A. Yes, one of the reasons.
1 Q. And the second reason was that the money being offered was
2 attractive; is that correct?
3 A. That's right, yes.
4 Q. 400 Deutschmarks per month; is that correct? Is that what the
5 advertisement said?
6 A. It wasn't in the advertisement. I learned that from friends of
7 my friends.
8 Q. And were your friends of your friends discussing the amount with
9 a degree of excitement? It was enticing, that amount of money; is that
11 A. Of course, certainly.
12 Q. And did you and your friends and friends of friends also
13 discuss -- let me strike that.
14 Did friends of yours also find it attractive and want to join?
15 A. Well, no, they did not.
16 Q. So you were the only one who found that amount of money
17 attractive or did they find it attractive and decided not to join?
18 MR. WEBER: Objection. Calls for speculation as to what those
19 other individuals thought --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if Mr. Jordash would have asked whether they
21 told the witness whether or not, so therefore ...
22 MR. WEBER: The objection then would be foundation for that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's -- Mr. Jordash, it's clear that if you
24 ask a witness what someone else says that you always should also ask him
25 how he knows that.
1 MR. JORDASH: Well, Your Honour, I agree, but --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's then proceed.
3 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
4 Q. Was that -- give -- give us all in the courtroom an impression of
5 how much money that was. Was that a lot of money at the time? How much
6 more money was it than, say, what you might expect to earn working in the
8 A. Yes, it was a lot of money. It was more than your average salary
9 in Serbia
10 Q. Did you speak to your friends about whether they intended to
12 A. They lived in Serbia
13 war. They had no need to do that.
14 Q. Right. When you arrived and joined Arkan's Men, did you meet
15 others who had joined for similar reasons? They wanted to earn this sum
16 of money?
17 A. Well, I don't know what motivated other people to go.
18 Q. You didn't speak to other Tigers about why it was they had joined
19 the group?
20 A. No, I didn't speak to anyone about that. The people there did
21 not really speak much about themselves and about their personal lives.
22 Q. So when you say that you heard some of the recruited exchanged
23 prison for joining Arkan's Tigers, this was not something that you
24 discussed in detail with anyone. Am I right?
25 A. Well, I didn't discuss this with anyone directly.
1 Q. You never met anyone who had been released from a prison in
2 exchange for working with Arkan, did you?
3 A. I don't know. No.
4 Q. Didn't hear of any particular prison where prisoners were taken
5 from to work for Arkan, did you?
6 A. About a prison? No, not specifically.
7 Q. Why did you stay after you arrived, when you realised you were
8 not going to be paid that sum of money?
9 A. Well, I had signed a contract, a three-month contract. I was
10 young, and I was afraid.
11 Q. And you were excited about working with Arkan and his men. Am I
13 A. Well, I wasn't excited exactly. That decision was difficult for
15 Q. Well, were you not excited by receiving this specialised
16 training; one of the reasons you'd joined in the first instance?
17 A. Well, I was excited before I joined. But once I joined, I was
18 actually disaffected; I was disappointed.
19 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Now within the camp at Erdut, there was a
20 disciplined environment; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Nobody on the camp - and I mean nobody - was allowed to drink?
23 A. Alcohol was strictly prohibited.
24 Q. And strictly prohibited for all Tigers of all ranks and
25 assignments; correct?
1 A. Well, that I don't know. I don't know whether officers did use
2 alcohol, but they weren't there all the time. Many of them went home.
3 For those of us who stayed there, we were not allowed to use alcohol.
4 Q. Sorry, I should have made myself clearer. But in relation to the
5 officers, did you ever see them drinking on the Erdut camp? Leave aside
6 what they might have done at home or elsewhere.
7 A. I never saw it.
8 Q. And you never saw any of the officers drunk on the camp. Am I
10 A. I never saw any officer drunk.
11 MR. JORDASH: Could I ask, please, we go to page 5 in the
12 English, and I think page 5 in the B/C/S of the exhibit on -- the Rule
13 65 ter on the e-court.
14 The paragraph I'm interested in is the paragraph which starts
16 "We never" -- "we never came to" -- "we never came into contact
17 with any of the officers ..."
18 Q. Do you see that? And it's the second line I'm interested in.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Where it says:
21 "I was not aware of any people going missing from the villages of
22 Erdut or Dalj, during the period I was there?"
23 Could you elaborate on what you were referring to there, please,
24 if you remember.
25 A. Well, just what I said, because a question had been put to me,
1 whether I knew anything about people going missing, and, of course, I
2 only left the base when we were in training, during the running
3 exercises. Otherwise, we were not allowed to leave the base.
4 Q. You didn't see any civilians being brought onto the camp; is that
6 A. I didn't see any.
7 Q. And just to be clear, what I mean by that is detained by
8 Arkan's Men and brought onto the camp. You didn't see that?
9 A. I didn't.
10 Q. And does it follow from that you didn't see any civilians being
11 mistreated on the camp during the time you were there?
12 A. I didn't.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, it's a bit of a puzzle. If there are
14 no civilians brought in there, how could they be ill-treated there.
15 MR. JORDASH: I wanted to be absolutely clear that the point
16 was --
17 JUDGE ORIE: The point was clear.
18 MR. JORDASH: Sorry.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's -- please proceed.
20 MR. JORDASH: Could I just have a moment to find something,
22 Thank you.
23 Q. Did you receive any training while you were on the Erdut camp?
24 A. Yes, for a period of two months.
25 Q. Am I correct that you were not being trained -- let me rephrase
2 You were trained -- you were given military training; is that
4 A. What do you mean "military"? What military?
5 Q. Military training, as opposed to training how to, for example,
6 kill or mistreat civilians.
7 A. If you mean the training at Arkan's, that's the only kind of
8 training that I went through.
9 Q. Sorry, could you clarify. I put to you two types: One, what I
10 referred to as military training, as opposed to training to mistreat and
11 kill civilians.
12 What kind of training did you receive while you were at the Erdut
14 A. Military training.
15 Q. Thank you. Now just let me take you to the point when you were
16 instructed to go to Bijeljina and conduct operations there.
17 Were you gathered at the Erdut in military formation and given
18 your commands?
19 A. We were lined up in military formation. Out of 150 men, 45,
20 approximately, were selected, and then we were taken aside and told that
21 we had to wait and that we would be told when we would set off. And as
22 for further instructions, we only received them before -- just before we
23 arrived Bijeljina.
24 Q. So, at that stage, then, at this initial stage, you were just
25 told you were going to Bijeljina or that you were just going for an
1 operation somewhere?
2 A. We were told that we were going somewhere, most probably to
4 Q. Now let me move you forward, then, to when you arrive in
6 What instructions did you receive at that point, or just before
7 you arrived in Bijeljina. What instructions did you receive at that
9 A. That we should capture and eliminate Muslim terrorists.
10 Q. And what was your understanding of capturing and eliminating
11 Muslim terrorists? Who were the terrorists?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Well, did you understand Muslim terrorists to be armed men or
14 somebody other than that?
15 A. Well, of course, they were -- the terrorists would be armed.
16 That was my understanding, that we were to capture armed Muslims or those
17 who were preventing us from taking over the town.
18 Q. Let me take you back to the statement on the screen and two
19 paragraphs down from the one we looked at which starts off with:
20 "We had not got a clue where we were going ..."
21 Do you have that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And if you just read the paragraph quickly. And the bit I'm
24 particularly interested in is the bit where it says:
25 "We also heard that the reason we were there," and Mauzer is
1 introduced into your statement.
2 Do you see that?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. And the statement says:
5 "We also heard that the reason we were there was because ...
6 Mauzer had called on behalf of local Serbs from Bijeljina to come and
7 help. We heard that they agreed to pay Arkan 250.000 Deutschmarks to go
8 in and take control of the town, as there had been fighting amongst the
9 Serbs and Muslims."
10 Can you -- are you able to say at this point who was it who told
11 you that it was Mauzer who had requested and paid for Arkan to come to
13 A. I don't know who it was who told me, but that was the story that
14 was going around amongst us fighters.
15 Q. So this was a -- a, let's say, a rumour which went around all the
16 fighters. This was something that the fighters understood at the time
17 had happened.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And was it the understanding that Mauzer and his troops were
20 having difficulty and had not been able to overcome the Muslim forces in
22 A. As far as I know, his units did not exist at the time.
23 Q. Mauzer was a politician at that time; is that correct?
24 A. I think so.
25 Q. A member of the SDS
1 A. That I don't know.
2 Q. But somebody important in the Bijeljina region in the SDS. Is
3 that what you were made to believe?
4 A. That was how I understood it.
5 Q. Now, just going further down to the bottom of the page in this
7 MR. JORDASH: If we can go to the very bottom of the B/C/S and
8 the English.
9 Q. Can you see the section which deals with the shooting of a
10 retarded man?
11 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps we need to go to the next page of the
13 Q. Do you see that?
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, since we have two different pages, I'm
15 not sure if the witness is going to know where we're at. If we could
16 just have the sentence read out for the record.
17 MR. JORDASH:
18 Q. Mr. Witness, the sentence I'm looking is:
19 "On the other side of the bus station, where my colleagues were,
20 they shot dead a retarded man when they wrongly he had a gun in his
21 pocket. They felt very bad about that."
22 A. I apologise, I can't find that part.
23 Q. It's my fault. I should have identified it earlier in the B/C/S.
24 I think it's being ringed at the stop, the first paragraph.
25 Can you see that?
1 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. How did you know that they felt bad about it?
22 A. Well, because the local people who were with us said that he
23 shouldn't have been killed, that he was a retarded Serb. Because they
24 had actually shot and killed a man who didn't stop. He tried to run
1 Q. Did you, when you were in Bijeljina, conduct military operations
2 with the group you'd arrived with? Did you stay with the group?
3 A. Yes. I stayed with the group, and I took part in military -- in
5 Q. Were you able to observe what others in your group were doing?
6 A. Well, I don't know what group you mean because the large group,
7 talking about the 45 men, that large group was subdivided into a number
8 of smaller groups.
9 Q. Well, your group, let's stick with them for a minute, the
10 subdivided group that you belonged to, did you see any of that group
11 engage in anything other than tracking down men with guns?
12 A. No, nothing else.
13 Q. Now, leaving aside what happened after Bijeljina was taken over,
14 did you observe any of the other subdivided groups doing anything other
15 than tracking down men with guns?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You spoke of 45 casualties. Who -- who were these casualties;
18 are you able to say?
19 A. They were civilians, as far as I know; the total number of
20 casualties in those three days.
21 Q. Do you have any evidence that these deaths were anything other
22 than civilians caught in cross-fire?
23 A. I have no proof.
11 Page 6264 redacted. Private session.
19 MR. WEBER: Well, Your Honours, as a matter of just logistics
20 that are coming up, in his previous testimony he was asked a lot of
21 partial questions also about his 1999 statement and this is also
22 occurring now, only certain portions are -- so it would save a lot of
23 re-direct if at some point in time counsel is either planning on
24 tendering this previous statement so the Chamber would have a complete
25 record of what was said, or I could lay the 92 ter foundation on
1 re-direct, if you like.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there's a lot as well in the cross-examination
3 in the previous case. Quite a lot of those questions are answered there.
4 But ...
5 You may proceed.
6 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, could I just seek clarification. I'm not
7 sure what happened then.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the Fruska Gora, whether that was a
9 check-point or not, all these matters, if I look at page 18093, for
10 example, I find a lot of -- at least some of the matters have you asked
11 the witness again. That Fruska Gora is near Novi Sad, not Novi Sad
12 itself, and that there was a check-point and that was where he was
13 stopped and that it was -- I mean, a lot of matters you are --
14 MR. JORDASH: No, Your Honour, I understand what Your Honour's
15 point was. I don't understand Mr. Weber's point was, I'm sorry.
16 MR. WEBER: I believe it's getting to the point between the
17 previous testimony and this examination that it may be best just to admit
18 the 1999 statement because they're incomplete references being made both
19 in the previous testimony and information that's contained in the 1999
20 statement. I believe the Prosecution's position would be that the
21 Chamber should have a complete picture.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, of course, we have not -- we have at this
23 moment part of the statement before us, of course, that contains all
24 other matters as well, as far as I could see quickly. So as -- shooting
25 at persons at the fourth floor of a hotel without a lot of explanation.
1 I mean, there's more there. So to say, well, we can resolve a few of
2 these matters by just admitting into evidence this statement, then, first
3 of all, we would have to give an opportunity to the witness to read it,
4 to give the appropriate attestation under Rule 92 ter. That's -- it is
5 may be more complex than you suggest at this moment.
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I believe that foundation can be laid
7 with this witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You can do that. The Chamber, of course, is not
9 there. You are giving a suggestion. It is not for the Chamber to decide
10 on that. Mr. Jordash has heard your suggestion, and whether he follows
11 it or not, we'll see.
12 You may proceed.
13 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I will, thank you.
14 Q. Just dealing with this point quickly. No, I won't, I'll leave it
15 there. Thank you.
16 Let me just take you back briefly to Bijeljina. Arkan's Men,
17 including yourself, over the three days you were fighting, were fighting
18 also alongside the JNA. Is that correct?
19 A. No, it isn't correct.
20 Q. What about the local TO?
21 A. Well, that's not the JNA.
22 Q. No, I'm asking you the next question, which is: TO, were they
23 there? Were you fighting alongside them?
24 A. We weren't fighting alongside them. They were the ones who were
25 supposed to hold the boundaries of the town.
1 Q. So as you saw it then, the two groups that were within the town
2 and securing it, were the TO and Arkan's Tigers; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did you receive any information about the TO ultimately
5 falling under the command of Mauzer, either at the time you were there or
7 A. Not under Mauzer. It was people who were being trained by
8 Arkan's Men, before arriving in Bijeljina.
9 Q. So do you have any information about the command structure of the
10 TO that was present fighting, or the section of the TO that was present
12 A. No.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I can't say that it is perfectly clear
15 Witness JF-025, Mr. Jordash asked you whether the TO was under
16 the command of Mauzer. You said:
17 "No, not under Mauzer. It was people who were being trained by
18 Arkan's Men, before arriving in Bijeljina."
19 Are you telling us that those people were under Mauzer's command?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under Mauzer's command were people
21 who were trained before Arkan's Men. That is to say, us, arrived
22 Bijeljina. And the Territorial Defence, the TO, those were ordinary
23 people from the reserve formations.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it was you, there was the TO, and there
25 were those who had previously been trained by Arkan's Men, which then
1 were under the command of Mauzer.
2 Is that how I have to understand your testimony?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you could understand it that
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that is -- if there are many ways of
6 understanding it, the evidence becomes less clear. Have I understood it
7 correctly or not?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know. I can try and
9 explain it again.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
11 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, a point of confusion may lay in the fact
12 that he has been asked about command structure and he went from --
13 JUDGE ORIE: From command to those who were commanded over.
14 That's exactly the reason why I tried to have it clarified.
15 Mr. Jordash, you're now aware of some of the confusion. And
16 since the witness says that I might not have understood him well, you
17 might be interested in presenting the evidence in such a way that we do
18 understand it well. That might be of some interest for you.
19 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. JORDASH:
22 Q. Did you see a formation that was under Mauzer's command in
23 Bijeljina when you were present?
24 A. Yes. One of their men was with us. There was -- there were one
25 or two of his men in each of the groups.
1 Q. In each of the subdivided groups of Arkan's Men, you mean?
2 A. Yes, that's right, in each of these subgroups.
3 Q. And these men who had -- were under Mauzer's command were
4 separate to the TO?
5 A. Yes, they were different.
6 Q. The men who'd been trained -- sorry. Let me start that again.
7 The men who were under Mauzer's command were all placed within
8 the subdivided groups under Arkan's command; is that correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. So it -- does it follow that there were two groups: One was the
11 TO; the other was Arkan's Men, containing some of -- men -- some men who
12 were under Mauzer's command.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. During the operations in Bijeljina, the men who had been under
15 Mauzer's command, did they continue to take commands from Mauzer, or did
16 they then, once within Arkan's groups, take command from Arkan's command?
17 A. They all received orders from Arkan, and we treated Mauzer at the
18 time as Arkan's deputy.
19 Q. All right. Thank you. Did you see Mauzer in Bijeljina?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Did you see who was giving orders to the TO?
22 A. No, I did not. The first day of the Territorial Defence attack,
23 there wasn't anyone. It was only on the second day that they became
25 Q. And after they became organised, their command structure was
1 separate to Arkan's?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Okay. I think we can leave it there, I hope.
4 MR. JORDASH: Could I just briefly take instructions? I think
5 I'm almost done, although I might want to put one exhibit.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MR. JORDASH: Could I have, please -- thank you, Your Honour.
10 Could I please have Rule 65 ter 2074.
11 Your Honour, this is an exhibit which is six pages long. I'm
12 just trying to think of a practical -- I would like the witness, to be
13 fair to him, to have an opportunity to read it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would have no objection
16 to counsel just putting whatever portions of the report that he wants to
17 go in. It is discussed very extensively in the expert report. We have
18 discussed the authenticity of it and I believe that we wouldn't -- I
19 mean, it's our exhibit and there appears to no dispute over the
20 relevance, if we could just have the whole document tendered, though,
21 after whatever portions are put to the witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
23 MR. JORDASH: I was intending to apply to tender it if the
24 witness was able to say something about it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I have no idea what your questions will be, whether
1 for answering those questions there is any need to read the whole of the
2 document, that apparently is the -- may be at least, although I haven't
3 seen the document, that may be the issue. I can't decide that for you.
4 What we could do, of course, is either you choose to put certain portions
5 of the document to the witness, if you consider that it would give him
6 sufficient -- sufficient basis for answering your questions; or, if you
7 consider that he should have read the whole of it, then we could take an
8 early break and ask the witness to do some homework during the break.
9 MR. JORDASH: I would suggest the latter, because I think it
10 would assist the witness's understanding.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I suggest that we proceed in that way.
12 Mr. Jordash, could you give us an indication, if we would take a
13 break now and resume at ten minutes to 6.00, how much time you'd then
14 still need.
15 MR. JORDASH: Ten minutes only.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ten minutes only. So let's make it 15 for you,
17 then. That's on the basis of experience.
18 Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution does have a clean B/C/S copy of the
20 exhibit, if it's okay if I provide it to the Registrar at the outset of
21 the break.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I could I please hear from Mr. Petrovic,
23 how much time he would need on from five minutes past 6.00.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 20 minutes, at the
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think we can proceed in that way.
2 But before taking a break, Mr. Jordash, when I earlier said how
3 can someone be ill-treated if is he not there, of course, what I should
4 have said is, how can you see someone being ill-treated, if you had not
5 seen that person there, because what you see and what is there, of
6 course, is not necessarily the same.
7 We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes to 6.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.22 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness JF-025, have you had an opportunity to read
11 the document that was provided to you?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Jordash may have some questions.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
15 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Could I just take -- can I inform you of this first, Mr. Witness,
17 that this is a document which came from the CSB Banja Luka and was
18 obtained by the Prosecution. It doesn't say it on the document, but I
19 provided that information so that you understood the context.
20 MR. JORDASH: Could we turn to page 2, please.
21 Q. Can you see the paragraph:
22 "The policy of the Serbian leadership (Municipal
23 War Presidency) ..."
24 In the English, it's the second-to last paragraph at page 2, and
25 I ...
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any chance that it's on the third page in
2 B/C/S or ... just trying to find.
3 Most likely it is.
4 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
5 Q. Do you see that paragraph?
6 A. Yes, I do see that.
11 Pages 6275-6276 redacted. Private session.
24 MR. JORDASH: I've got nothing further, Your Honours.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
2 Mr. Weber.
3 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, is counsel intending to tender this
4 document? It's hard to know --
5 JUDGE ORIE: I haven't heard.
6 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. Thank you, Mr. Weber. Yes, I
7 would like to tender this as an exhibit if I may.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any objections?
9 MR. WEBER: No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: There are no objections.
11 Any objections from Mr. Petrovic?
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
14 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D83, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: D83 is admitted into evidence.
16 Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I am, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness JF-025, you will now be cross-examined by
19 Mr. Petrovic. Now Mr. Petrovic is not in this courtroom. He'll put
20 questions to you, and you can see him on your screen.
21 Do you see at this moment Mr. Petrovic on your screen? You may
22 not know that that's Mr. Petrovic, but the person before a UN flag.
23 Mr. Petrovic, you may proceed.
24 By the way, Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. I have just a few questions relating to your testimony today.
6 Please tell us, when you entered Bijeljina with your group, could
7 you hear shooting from other parts of the town of Bijeljina?
8 A. At the time when we were entering the town, we couldn't hear any
9 shooting, but we did hear it later on from all parts of town.
10 Q. Were you able to determine where the shooting was coming from or
11 could the shooting be heard everywhere, all over town, as you mentioned
13 A. Well, practically it was all over town.
14 Q. Witness, sir, please tell me, if you know, before you entered
15 Bijeljina, do you know whether there had been any fighting in Bijeljina
16 town a day or two before you arrived?
17 A. I only know that a hand-grenade was tossed outside a Serb cafe.
18 Q. Do you know where this happened?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Could you tell us where.
21 A. Well, I can point it out on a map, but I cannot recall the name
22 of the street or --
23 Q. Well, of course, I'm not asking you to tell me the street number
24 or the street name or anything to that effect. Just what part of town
25 was it? Was there anything specific that you could tell us about that
1 part of town which would help us determine where approximately that was?
2 A. Well, it was some 100 metres from the bus station. This small
3 business or cafe belonged to a Radical Party leader later on.
4 Q. Well, perhaps I can be of assistance. Was a hand-grenade tossed
5 from a Istanbul Cafe, and was it tossed into a cafe where the Serbs --
6 there were Serb patrons? Is that what you heard happen?
7 A. Yes. Well, people from this cafe, the Istanbul Cafe, actually
8 got out and went and tossed that hand-grenade, because they're quite far
9 apart so you couldn't do it from the cafe itself.
10 Q. From what you could hear -- or from what you heard, was this the
11 first armed conflict in Bijeljina, in that area?
12 A. From what I had heard, yes.
13 Q. And just one clarification, the Istanbul Cafe, if I understood
14 your earlier testimony properly, that was a cafe where the Muslims of
15 Bijeljina town actually used to go?
16 A. Yes, as far as I knew, that's true.
17 Q. Please tell me, you testified about some 40 vehicles being
18 confiscated, or seized. Could you tell us what type of vehicles these
19 were? Was every vehicle you came across seized or was there a selection
21 A. Well, a small correction, vehicles were not confiscated from
22 people. They were stolen for all practical purposes. The vehicles were
23 usually outside a house. That's -- that's what I know about this whole
25 Q. Tell me, please, do you know and did you have -- did you have
1 occasion to learn whom these vehicles belonged to?
2 A. No, I don't know anything about that. They were taken from
3 outside a Muslim house, but this man was actually a repairman, so I don't
4 know whom these vehicles belonged to.
5 Q. In other words, those vehicles could have belonged both to Serbs
6 and Muslims; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In your testimony, you also mention the confiscation of a fire
9 truck. Could you tell us, please, was this fire truck the property of
10 the City of Bijeljina
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. If I understand you correctly, you were told to take this vehicle
13 that belonged to the Bijeljina municipality in -- the capture of which
14 and the establishment of the new authorities Arkan's unit participated as
15 well; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So if I understand you correctly, members of Arkan's unit seized
18 items or stole items, whatever you want to call it, regardless of what
19 purpose that vehicle or some other item served; correct?
20 A. Well, in my view, yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, do you know, at the time when you
5 were in Bijeljina, in the town itself, or in its vicinity, was there a
6 Yugoslav Army unit present?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Is there a barrack in Bijeljina? Do you know where it is?
9 A. Yes, there is a barrack.
10 Q. Do you know how far that barrack is from the centre of town? Can
11 you tell me is it in the town of Bijeljina
12 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. Would you agree with me when I say that those Zastava automatic
22 rifles during the war and in the former Yugoslavia all parties used them?
23 A. Yes, that's right. Everybody used that same weapon.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like now to show
1 the witness a video, 2D179.1. It lasts -- from 14:08 to 14:52
2 portion of it has been transcribed and it has been translated and handed
3 out to the booths. So can we see that video and then I'd like to ask the
4 witness a few questions after we've seen the footage.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You say "short portion" has been transcribed. May I
6 take it that the whole of what you will play has been transcribed?
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then let the video be played.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Witness, have you seen the video? I haven't got a monitor where
12 I am, so you must tell me.
13 A. No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me now verify. You have not seen any video.
15 Could we then -- it should be on e-court that the witness -- could it be
16 played again.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Have you viewed the video?
21 A. Yes, I have.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, there is no audio on the images that
23 were played. So, therefore, if you say it was transcribed, nothing could
24 be heard, nothing has been translated. I don't know what causes the --
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, then ...
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Well, we're probably experiencing
3 a technical problem, then, and I'd like the Case Manager for the
4 Simatovic Defence to play the footage again so that we can pin-point the
5 problem as far as the audio is concerned.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that they have not received
8 a transcript.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, I think we can stop it again. We are
10 now playing it for the third time. There still is no audio and the
11 interpreters say that they have not received a transcript.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in that case, I'd
13 like to ask the witness a few questions on the basis of the footage the
14 witness has just looked at. The text is not that relevant.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Because it is a reporter speaking
17 so I will just ask the witness my questions.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then you put the questions to the witness on
19 the basis of what he has seen.
20 Witness JF-025, could you confirm that you now saw the video of
21 which the first part was now played again?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have seen it, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Witness, did you recognise Arkan on this footage?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did you recognise Biljana Plavsic on the footage that we've
3 just seen?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know General Prascevic?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Witness, do you know that at the time you were in the town of
8 Bijeljina, Biljana Plavsic was in Bijeljina too, and she met
9 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, on several occasions?
10 A. Yes, that's right. But on the day that she was there, I was a
11 security detail.
15 Q. So you were part of the security detail for the meeting between
16 Plavsic and Arkan, if I understand you correctly?
17 A. Yes. And there were some other officials there.
18 Q. Did you hear anything about the exchange between Plavsic and
19 Arkan? Did members of Serbian Volunteer Guard say anything about the
20 meeting? Did they talk about it?
21 A. No.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
23 Q. Well, thank you, Witness.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honour I would like to
25 tender this video as a Defence exhibit and we shall just rely on the
1 video and nothing else, just the footage and what we were able to see and
2 not anything that was heard or not heard, rather. So I'd like to tender
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, any further questions for the witness?
19 You would like to have this admitted into evidence.
20 Madam Registrar, the video-clip played.
21 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D84, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D84 is admitted into evidence.
23 Mr. Petrovic, there were other portions of this video on which no
24 questions were put. I further wondered to what extent the presence of
25 Madam Plavsic and Arkan at this occasion in Bijeljina would not have been
1 something that could have been easily agreed upon by the parties. I
2 think it is from day one of this Tribunal that this video is played
3 and is -- appears in many Judgements. Therefore, I wonder if there would
4 have not been more efficient ways of establishing what you now apparently
5 have established. The thing we now know is that the witness was on the
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do believe that we
8 can discuss this with my colleagues from the Prosecution and that will
9 make matters simpler and get through them speedier.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That should have been done before, but let's not
11 spend further time on this.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if have you any further questions for the
14 witness, please proceed.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, that completes my
16 examination. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
18 Any need for re-examination?
19 MR. WEBER: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
21 Re-examination by Mr. Weber:
18 Q. With respect to page 69, line 25, you were asked whether or
19 not -- or what group had Zastava automatic rifles. You responded that
20 everyone used Zastava automatic rifles.
21 Who is "everyone"? If you could please state the groups or
23 A. Well, let's put it this way, all those who fought on the
24 territories of the former Yugoslavia
25 Q. Are you referring to Serb forces, or Serb and Bosnian forces,
1 or -- including Croatian forces? It is not quite clear.
2 A. Everybody. All forces who took part in the war. The Serbs, the
3 Muslims, the Croats, and any others if there were any.
4 Q. Did you have occasion to previously provide a statement to the
5 Office of the Prosecutor on the 25th of April, 1999?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you have occasion to review this statement before your
8 testimony here today?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you have the opportunity to make any corrections or
11 clarifications that you wished with respect to this statement?
12 A. I had the opportunity, yes.
13 Q. If you were asked the same questions that you were asked when you
14 gave that statement, would you provide the same answers?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders
17 65 ter 5382. And we're tendering it under a particular set of
18 circumstances here today. It was not a part of the Prosecution's
19 original 92 ter materials. The reason for this is that it's largely
20 duplicative. However, today during cross-examination, the witness was
21 asked to merely read or review portions of the statement that is not
22 reflected anywhere in the transcript. And secondly, the witness -- also
23 the cross-examination was conducted almost as if it was a 92 ter
24 examination. The witness was asked to review it, and then expound upon
25 portions of that statement. I raised the issue during the
1 cross-examination of the Stanisic Defence for that reason. I was --
2 could have objected, asked that they lay the proper foundation for
3 92 ter. It was not being used as a prior inconsistent statement, and I
4 believe at this time it is proper to admit the statement in order to have
5 the proper context of what is stated in that material and available to
6 the Chamber.
7 We tender it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
9 MR. JORDASH: We object. This is a back-door route of the
10 Prosecution trying to basically remedy and adduce evidence which is
11 helpful to their case in the light of the cross-examination.
12 If my learned friend's submissions are correct, which they're
13 not, in our submission, my learned friend should be able to point to the
14 paragraphs which, in the view of the Prosecution, should have been read
15 to the witness and the witness should have been asked to comment on.
16 What happened was I read -- I asked the witness to read a particular
17 paragraph and then I directed his attention to the line that we were
18 interested in and that line was read onto the record.
19 The request for the witness to read the paragraph was simply for
20 the witness to have the context. And if I hadn't done that, my learned
21 friend would have leapt to his feet and said, You need to let the witness
22 read the whole paragraph for context.
23 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
24 First, Mr. Petrovic.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I support the
1 position taken by my colleague Mr. Jordash. I don't think it would be a
2 good idea at this stage for the Prosecutor to ask something to be
3 tendered which, if he had intended to do, should have been done much
5 So I feel this a manoeuvre of some kind which should not be
6 allowed and therefore I propose maybe just those parts of the statement
7 on which my colleague Mr. Jordash relies, that they could be tendered
8 into evidence and nothing more than that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
10 MR. WEBER: I guess I am first confused a little bit by the fact
11 the Defence used something that they didn't intend to tender. Second, I
12 could have said -- I did object. I did raise this matter during
13 cross-examination. I did flag this issue for the Chamber and for counsel
14 when he using the statement in the manner that he was at the time. I
15 could have required the counsel to lay a proper 92 ter foundation before
16 asking substantive questions about the statement before the witness
17 testified to it.
18 These matters were raised during the cross-examination. Counsel
19 chose to go into the statement. The Prosecution did not feel the
20 statement was necessary as part of the original 92 ter materials because,
23 don't have that. So we have a witness who was asked to read a paragraph,
24 and in some cases not the paragraph before or paragraph after, and
25 provide a question that stemmed off of that.
1 In -- -- in terms of efficiency we are just tendering that
2 previous statement now to allow the Chamber to have that previous
3 statement at its disposal to see the context in which those questions
4 were asked. So the evidence of the witness is duplicative. That's why
5 we didn't tender both. But now I believe the witness has laid the proper
6 foundation for it and the Chamber should have it available to it.
7 If counsel didn't want to use it in such a way, then they
8 shouldn't have used it in such a way.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Speed of speech is going up.
10 MR. JORDASH: If I may respond.
11 My learned friend seems to raise two points. The first is that
12 there is an obligation on the Defence when they use a document to
13 cross-examine a witness to tender it. I know of no such rule.
14 That use has nothing to do with Rule 92 ter. That's the first
16 The second point is this. Which paragraphs do the Prosecution
17 say, somehow, should have been put to the witness but were not put
18 properly so that we now need the statement to be admitted? In each case,
19 I read the relevant bit and the witness addressed his mind to it. And
20 could I just add the final point. There are matters within this
21 statement which, if this statement goes in, we will need to cross-examine
22 on because that evidence will be challenged.
23 The suggestion by Mr. Petrovic is perhaps the right halfway
24 house. If there are paragraphs which my learned friend say somehow the
25 Court has been mislead about, or that Your Honours would be assisted by
1 in light of the cross-examination, then they can be pointed out and
2 Your Honours can make a decision on those specific paragraphs.
3 Otherwise, we're opening up the whole cross-examination again.
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I could propose a suggestion --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you must be a bit upset, because you're
6 calling Mr. Weber "Mr. Petrovic."
7 MR. JORDASH: No. It was Mr. Petrovic's suggestion about just
8 putting in the specific paragraphs.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. Let me -- let me ...
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has considered the matter and we'll
12 rule on it.
13 Mr. Weber, I know you would like to respond again, perhaps, but
14 you have tendered this evidence. The Defence has responded to that.
15 You've been given an opportunity again to say something about. Then it
16 was the Defence, so we have now two rounds of argument and that is
17 sufficient for the Chamber to decide the matter.
18 The Chamber will allow those portions of the statement which are
19 related to the questions and give context to that, to have them admitted
20 into evidence.
21 There was a bit of a dispute. You said we didn't find it
22 important to tender it because it was duplicate. If it is duplicate,
23 you're not missing anything, Mr. Weber, because then it's already in
24 evidence, isn't it. That is the understanding of the word "duplicate."
25 Now, there is another matter, other issue, which, of course,
1 Mr. Jordash does not agree with that. But if there's anything new in it,
2 then, of course, Mr. Jordash, by cross-examining the witness on certain
3 elements, have not triggered any relevant matter. If it is new, that you
4 could use it in re-examination to suddenly introduce that into evidence.
5 Apart from the fact that you consider it to be duplicate anyhow.
6 So for those reasons the Chamber admits into evidence the
7 statement, to the extent that it contextualises, that means not
8 necessarily only the lines read to the witness but also those parts which
9 give proper context to that.
10 The parties are invited to elaborate on that and to see whether
11 they can agree what still is context for the questions. If they cannot
12 agree, then, of course, the Chamber will decide on the matter on the
13 basis of re-reading the transcript again, considering what questions were
14 put and then to read the relevant portions of that statement.
15 Mr. Weber.
16 MR. WEBER: Very well. And Mr. Petrovic's point is taken. The
17 first page of the -- the page 2 of the statement relates to matters that
18 the witness experienced in Croatia
19 page 7 in the English version, discusses experiences that occurred post
20 his experiences in Mauzer's Panthers. So the Prosecution, just so it is
21 very clear and it's not only the portion of the statement, is tendering
22 from the second page --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- for this moment, the Chamber has had a
24 glance at the statement only. I think we've given the basis on which we
25 are willing to admit that statement. Now to say page 1, yes, page 7,
1 not, I don't -- I haven't read page 1. So we can't decide on it anyhow.
2 Therefore, the invitation for the parties is to sit together to see
3 whether they can agree on the basis of, if I could say, the rudimentary
4 ruling of the Chamber to identify the relevant portions. If you agree on
5 it, fine. Then we'll look at it, and we'll decide on the matter. If you
6 do not agree, we'll have a look at everything, and then on the basis of
7 the rudimentary ruling, we will then finally decide on what is and what
8 is not admitted.
9 We don't have to deal with it at this very moment, I would say.
10 MR. WEBER: Your Honour -- and the Prosecution appreciates the
11 Chamber's ruling. The only reason it's raised now is that we're
12 ten minutes before the end of this witness. The Prosecution would ask --
13 would have more than ten minutes of examination to go through the
14 different parts of the statement with the witness here. So to --
15 JUDGE ORIE: But to what extent is that triggered by the
17 MR. WEBER: Well, if the statement is being admitted, the parts
18 relating to his activities as a member of Arkan's Tigers, then we don't
19 have any -- we don't further re-direct, which is the stuff that he
20 testified here to today. However, if we are going to have a later
21 dispute as to what portions are or are not admitted, I'm just asking for
22 the stuff that relate to the topics that he testified to today.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, the Chamber understands your problem but
25 also thinks that it's all the consequence of your choice not to tender
1 into evidence what you considered to be duplicate only, and, therefore,
2 the way in which this emerged, the Chamber considers that you -- that it
3 should not give you, at this moment, an opportunity to further question
4 the witness on that. It is all -- we find the context necessary for
5 understanding the evidence given in cross-examination. That's the
7 MR. WEBER: Okay. So ... just so I'm clear, then, there are, for
8 example, the witness was asked about two reasons that he joined the
9 Arkan's Tigers, but there's other reasons that are stated in the
10 statement and it wasn't explored, so --
11 JUDGE ORIE: So apparently it is not duplicate. I mean, the
12 whole thing started by the decision of the Prosecution to say, We don't
13 need the statement because we find everything that's relevant, we find
14 that in the testimony.
15 Now, that was your decision. And what now appears is that you
16 say, No, we do not find that all in the testimony. It's -- it's not
17 duplicate. It's -- there are new elements in it. That's exactly the
18 reason why Mr. Jordash, I think, objected to having the whole
19 statement --
20 MR. WEBER: But that is not the case. When Mr. Jordash was
21 reading it here today, he didn't read the full paragraph. I did get up
22 on my feet and, you know, I was -- I could have -- I was told that I
23 would have an opportunity to later ask about it. So It's a lot of
24 matters like this. I could have asked --
25 JUDGE ORIE: I see --
1 MR. WEBER: -- Mr. Jordash to read an entire paragraph, but the
2 witness was just asked to read a paragraph and then to comment on one or
3 two things. It's not in the record.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What I said before as a basic matter stands.
6 There was one incident half way, Mr. Jordash, where you are blamed for
7 taking matters out of context. Then I said it would not be very wise to
8 do that because Mr. Weber would in re-examination deal with that matter.
9 Now, strictly in relation to that portion that was read and
10 strictly in relation to what you considered to be a paragraph that would
11 create the context, you may ask the witness a few questions, Mr. Weber.
12 And you should clearly indicate what part of the statement you thought
13 would give the context which Mr. Jordash apparently, as you said,
15 MR. WEBER: There's five portions in the cross-examination that
16 Mr. Jordash referred to the statement. I -- I did not keep on -- I
17 raised the point. I brought the issue to the attention of the Chamber I
18 did not keep on interrupting counsel's examination just to repeat the
19 same point before the Chamber. So I -- we fully understand what the
20 Chamber's ruling is with respect to those five portions and things that
21 are within the context of this witness's statement. We would be willing
22 to sit down with Defence and admit the portions of the previous statement
23 that are relevant to those portions that were examined on today.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now we have -- we have two matters. First,
25 Prosecution -- and, no, Defence saying to the Prosecution, You have
1 not -- you have chosen not to tender certain portions of the evidence.
2 Therefore, you should not through the back door now bring it in. And
3 then we have the next item being, you have -- you, Defence, you have
4 questioned the witness about certain elements of the statement and have
5 taken them totally out of context. And I do now understand that, to some
6 extent, Mr. Weber, that it is part of the battle of what is context and
7 what is not context.
8 Is that ...
9 MR. WEBER: That's correct. The Prosecution is not trying to
10 expand its evidence. We're just asking for the portions that are --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I think it is not of great use to ask
12 the witness further questions about it. It will be your battle or your
13 conversation about what contextualises and where matters are taken out of
14 context. You can seek agreement on that. If you don't agree on that,
15 then we will hear your submissions. And on the basis of your
16 submissions, the statement and the evidence given by the witness, the
17 Chamber will decide to what extent those portions of the statement to
18 which the witness attested can be admitted into evidence.
19 MR. WEBER: Sounds great.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I have a few questions for you.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE ORIE: The first one is that in your testimony you're using
24 several expressions. You're talking about Serbian Volunteer Guard and
25 Arkan's Tigers. Is that the same for you, or are these different units
1 or groups?
2 A. It's the same.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You're also talking about Arkan's Guards. Is that a
4 reference to still the same ...
5 A. Except if I was referring to the former members. Former Arkan
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you explain that answer a bit more. You used
8 the words "Arkan's Guards" in relation to former members? Is that ...
9 A. No. In one particular case, I used the term "Arkan's Guards,"
10 but that was in the case when the former Arkan's Guards moved over to
11 Mauzer, to train new Mauzer's members, Mauzer guard members.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, if you say Serbian Volunteer Guard and
13 Arkan's Tigers, that's the same. Were all members of the
14 Serbian Volunteer Guard, were they called Arkan's Tigers; or -- I mean,
15 is that part of the Serbian Volunteer Guard or were all members of the
16 Serbian Volunteer Guard known as Arkan's Tigers.
17 A. The Serbian Volunteer Guard was the official name of the unit.
18 But among the people, among the men, and among the people -- well, the
19 people called them Arkan's Tigers.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Arkan's Tigers were not just a part of the Serbian
21 Volunteer Guard, or were they?
22 A. All the members of the Serbian Volunteer Guard were the Tigers.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then I'd like to take you back to some
24 of your answers in relation to Bijeljina.
25 You said that you arrived there early in the morning. 5.00,
1 5.30. Is that correct?
2 A. As far as I remember, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You moved onto the bus station?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Had you received any specific instructions as to the
6 layout of Bijeljina or what you'd have to specifically target or
7 investigate or search?
8 A. No, no instructions. And that was precisely the reason why one
9 of the locals were with our -- was with our group. With each of the
10 groups, we had a local.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what information did you receive from that
12 local? Well, let's say during that first morning. And the morning I do
13 understand you went to the bus station there was this man which did not
14 want to stop and was shot. There was the Zolja with the Istanbul Cafe.
15 During that period of time, what information was given to you by this
19 at the bus-stop happened in the space of 15 or 20 minutes and then we
20 moved. And the local man would show us the route that we should take and
21 what we should pay attention to. That is to say, where some shooting
22 might be coming from and things like that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Now these first 20 minutes, you said, going to the
24 bus-stop and then moving on after that, would -- that 20 minutes, would
25 that include the man who was shot and the Zolja at the Istanbul Cafe?
1 Would that all be within those 20 minutes?
2 A. Yes, all that. Because at the bus-stop three or four groups
3 arrived. And from the bus-stop, we set out and dispersed, went in
4 different directions. One group stayed at the bus station.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what then happened with the man?
12 A. I don't know.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You moved on, and ...
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever receive any further information about
16 this man?
17 A. No, I did not. Except for the fact that he was a Serb and
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Who told you that he was a Serb?
20 A. One of the members of the Radical Party, who was -- who was in
21 that cafe not far from the bus station.
22 JUDGE ORIE: In what cafe -- to what cafe are you referring now?
23 A. I don't know what it was called. But it was the cafe where the
24 Muslims threw the hand-grenade. Before the war in Bijeljina.
25 JUDGE ORIE: How do you know that? When did you learn about the
1 hand-grenades and the ...
2 A. I learnt that from those people from that cafe, the local Serbs.
3 I learnt about that the next day.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So when the Zoljas were used against the Istanbul
5 you had no idea yet about people that may have come from the
6 Istanbul Cafe and may have thrown a hand-grenade because you learned that
7 only the day after that. Is that correctly understood?
8 A. Could you rephrase that question? I'm not sure I understood it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that you learned about a hand-grenade
10 thrown into a cafe only on the next day.
11 Now, therefore, and I'm asking you whether I understood you well,
12 that at the moment when the Zoljas were fired at the Istanbul Cafe, you
13 had no knowledge yet of people from the Istanbul Cafe throwing
14 hand-grenades to a Serb cafe.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I understand this as a correct understanding
1 of your testimony, because I could put it that way, I did put it that
2 way, so I'm seeking confirmation with you whether I understood you well.
3 Yes, you --
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have no further questions.
6 Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need for further
8 I'm also looking at the clock, and I'm getting -- I'm feeling
9 guilty already, but you shouldn't suffer from my feeling of guilt.
10 I'm also looking at Mr. Petrovic.
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no additional
12 questions following your examination of the witness. Thank you.
13 MR. JORDASH: And the same here, Your Honour. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 Then, witness JF-025, this concludes your testimony. I'd like to
16 thank you for coming and for having answering all the questions put to
17 you by the parties.
18 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
19 I wish you a safe return home again.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness withdrew]
11 Page 6304 redacted. Private session.
13 The disclosure issue we leave that for a later moment.
14 Mr. Jordash, reading the summary today is not possible today either.
15 Therefore, we'll adjourn for the day. The Prosecution is invited to file
16 the summary --
17 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, sorry.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then with all my apologies to those who are
12 suffering from -- from what I'm responsible for, that is, to end at 7.00,
13 that is transcribers, interpreters, but also security, everyone, we stand
14 adjourned, and we resume next week, Wednesday, at quarter past 2.00, in
15 this same courtroom.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.13 p.m.
17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of
18 July, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.