1 Tuesday, 7 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is the case IT-03-69-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 I'd first like to move into private session, because,
12 Mr. Jordash, the matter you want to raise is related to testimony to be
13 given in closed session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 6922-6937 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Could the witness be
5 brought into the courtroom.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. GROOME: While the witness is being brought in, it's -- we
9 just received information from VWS of a nature that would properly be
10 considered disclosable under Rule 68 with respect to this witness that's
11 currently on the stand. We have just sent it to both Defence teams, so I
12 just notify them that they should check their e-mail prior to proceeding
13 with the examination.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, for Rule 68, one would check its e-mail,
15 isn't it. Is it Rule 68(A) or (B) or --
16 MR. GROOME: I'd have to check. It's exculpatory information,
17 Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because Rule 68 covers more ...
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 WITNESS: RADOSLAV MAKSIC [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Maksic. I'd like to remind
23 you --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- that you're still bound by the solemn declaration
1 you have given at the beginning of your testimony. I invite you to be
2 seated, and Mr. Bakrac will cross-examine you. Mr. Bakrac is counsel for
3 Mr. Simatovic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you
6 to Mr. Groome. We have checked the e-mail.
7 Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
9 Q. Good afternoon to everyone. Good afternoon, Mr. Maksic.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. Mr. Maksic, yesterday you said that you were on the command for
12 the defence of the city of Belgrade; is that right?
13 A. Yes, I was serving there.
14 Q. Do you recall what was the military post of the Bubanj Potok
15 barracks or training grounds?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you. We are asking you this in relation to some other
18 witnesses, so we just wanted to seize the opportunity that you were
20 A. Well, the command of the city had over 25 units and military
22 Q. Very well. Let's move on. You can't remember and that's all
23 very well. You said yesterday in your evidence that the leaders and
24 volunteers of Seselj and Serbian Renewal Movement were given equipment
25 and weapons from the Belgrade Corps. Do you know where they were given
1 the assets?
2 A. At Bubanj Potok.
3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you said, Mr. Maksic, that at some point
4 you took along a group of individuals and met up with Mr. Biorcevic at
5 Bogojevo. You said that it was Bogojevo training grounds or Erdut
6 training grounds. Was it really the training grounds there?
7 A. Well, I said Bogojevo because I could not recall at that moment
8 what the training grounds close to Bogojevo were called. I recalled
9 later on that the name was Erdut. This was the training grounds for the
10 units from the Osijek Division.
11 Q. Mr. Maksic, let -- let's make it quite clear. When you said --
12 say Osijek Division, this means, in other words, that the training
13 grounds belonged to the Yugoslav People's Army; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. I will now move on to a different topic.
16 Yesterday you testified about two situations where, in your view,
17 Mr. Simatovic, or rather you refer to him as Frenki, on two occasions
18 where Mr. Simatovic was in Krajina.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I don't want to call in question the good intentions you have to
21 testify and tell the truth here. However, especially when it comes to
22 nicknames and some other circumstances, we can have cases of mistaken
23 identity involved.
24 Let me ask you this: I spoke to my client, and during the time
25 period you claim to have seen him in Knin or Korenica, he maintains that
1 he was not in the area of Krajina at all. This is my question for you:
2 Did you yourself see the individual you were told was Frenki, or did you
3 only hear that Frenki was present there?
4 A. No, I saw it myself.
5 Q. On both occasions you yourself saw the individual you were told
6 was Frenki?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I have full respect for your age and I know that the lapse of
9 time is lengthy, but can you please describe for us what the individual
10 you told was Frenki looked like?
11 A. Well, he's taller than me by a head, and he wore glasses, and
12 that's the extent of the description I can give.
13 Q. Did he have short or long hair?
14 A. Well, I really don't recall the details. I did not study him. I
15 only cast a glance at him. I said yesterday that I had never heard the
16 name before, so when I heard it then it meant nothing to me. Later on
17 they explained to me that he came from the State Security Service. I
18 said, and I'm repeating my words, I don't care about Frenki.
19 Q. I understand. The only thing you recall is that he was taller
20 than you and that he wore glasses.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And nothing else. What sort of hairstyle he had?
23 A. No. I just looked at him and it didn't matter to me at all.
24 Q. Did he wear civilian clothes or uniform?
25 A. I'm not sure of that either. I think he wore civilian clothes,
1 but I'm not sure.
2 Q. Very well, Mr. Maksic, let's move on. Mr. Maksic, yesterday you
3 corrected your testimony from an earlier trial where you discussed a
4 military operation in Gospic or in its surroundings.
5 A. Yes. It wasn't in Gospic proper.
6 Q. Is it true that the 9th Corps was the unit charged with the
7 operation, which led the operation?
8 A. Well, I don't know if that was the responsible unit. According
9 to our rules and instructions, the unit which is the highest in structure
10 and its commander would be in charge of an operation. Since the units of
11 the 9th Corps, complete with nine tanks, and this is hearsay now, took
12 part in the operation, and it wasn't an operation, it was an attack on
13 Gospic, I suppose that the commander in charge of the attack was the
14 commanding officer of the 9th Corps.
15 Q. In other words, according to the rules of combat and based on
16 what you just told us, people who came from the Serbian Renewal Movement,
17 Arkan's men, and Giska's men had to be under the control and command of
18 the commander of the 9th Corps.
19 A. They should have but they were not. They were in co-ordinated
20 action with the 9th Corps. They were not subordinated to them. Let me
21 explain what the difference between subordination and co-ordinated action
23 Q. Mr. Maksic, I don't have time for theories. Don't hold this
24 against me.
25 A. I won't.
1 Q. I'll put my next question to you, but be patient and please make
2 a pause so that the interpreters can interpret what we say properly.
3 So when you say "co-ordinated action," this other group also had
4 to have had a commander who co-operated with the commander of the
5 9th Corps; is that right?
6 A. With the commander who attacked Gospic.
7 Q. They had to co-ordinate their action.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. They had to plan the operation, the action, together and
10 everything else?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Maksic, you said that the units -- or, rather, the volunteers
13 of Vojislav Seselj, the Serbian Radical Party, were under the command of
14 the army; is that right?
15 A. Yes. There was a unit in the 9th Corps, in the 180th Brigade in
17 Q. Mr. Maksic were the volunteered of the SBO, the Serbian National
18 Guard, that's to say, of the Serbian Renewal Movement, were they also
19 under the command of the army?
20 A. No.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would I like to call
22 in e-court 2D161, and I would like Mr. Maksic to have a look at it.
23 Before it appears on our screens, Your Honours, I discussed these
24 documents with my learned friend Mr. Farr yesterday. This is a
25 documentation that the Defence obtained from a book entitled
1 "Domominski [phoen] Rat," "Homeland War," and all these documents can be
2 found in that. The Defence asked for originals of these documents from
3 the Croatian authorities, and since we will be calling witnesses who
4 would be able to testify to these documents, we shall be using documents
5 from the book, and with your leave we understand that Mr. Farr and the
6 OTP don't object. We would like to use this documentation and we would
7 like the documentation to be MFI'd until such time as we receive the
8 originals of these documents from Croatian authorities.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr.
10 MR. FARR: It's correct. We're happy for these documents to be
11 used and agree that they just be MFI'd pending --
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's how we will proceed.
13 MR. FARR: Just one comment. There are occasions where parts of
14 other documents are included in the document on e-court and those should
15 possibly be redacted and a new version uploaded.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Have you informed -- of course the Chamber cannot
17 take any objection not knowing what part of what documents are to be
18 protected. May I can take it you have informed --
19 MR. FARR: It's something I just noticed this morning. It's not
20 an urgent point, but for example with the document we're about to see now
21 in the B/C/S version, there's -- you see the bottom of the previous
22 document, but it's not an urgent issue for the moment.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then, Mr. Bakrac, you're required to pay
24 proper attention to any part of a document which may be shown on the
25 screen and which perhaps should not be shown on the screen. Please
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will do so. I will
3 ask my learned colleague to make note of what it is that should be MFI'd
4 and what it is that should remain outside of the document. And the
5 English translation only relates to the documents we call, so there is no
6 danger, no similar danger, there. They can remain in the English version
7 as they are.
8 Q. So this is, Mr. Vukic --
9 A. Mr. Maksic.
10 Q. Yes, I apologise. So this is the report from the commander of
11 the 9th Corps of the JNA to the command -- to the Supreme Command in
12 Belgrade, and on the 2nd of December, the commander,
13 Lieutenant-General Vladimir Vukovic, the commander of the 9th Corps wrote
14 the report; is that right? You have looked at it. Is the document
16 A. No.
17 Q. Very well. Mr. Maksic, take a look at page 4.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 4 of the document?
19 JUDGE ORIE: As far as the translation is concerned, yesterday we
20 saw a document which also started with "druze generale," and then it was
21 "comrade general," and today it seems to be a only a general anymore. Is
22 that -- has the --
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. Here in the
24 heading we have the name -- oh, yes, Your Honour. You're right.
25 "Comrade" is missing in the English translation.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I get a bit concerned if I see that the
2 translation is -- I don't know where it comes from, but could you take
3 care that it will be reviewed. Now, leaving out the word "comrade" might
4 not immediately change the content of the document but, it's -- just
5 caught my eye. Please proceed.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We will
7 bear that in mind.
8 Can we now see page 4 of this document, please.
9 Q. Look at the third paragraph from the top. The sentence starts
10 with "Members of the RJ."
11 A. Can you zoom in on this document, please?
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can you zoom in on the top part of
13 the document, please.
14 Your Honours, it is somewhere around the middle of the page in
15 the English version. It says:
16 "Members of the RJ from the territory of the SAO Krajina in the
17 Republic of Montenegro are well motivated and they are good fighters.
18 Volunteers of the Serbian Guard have accepted the unified insignia and
19 are good soldiers."
20 Q. Does this fact, which is referred to in this document here,
21 namely that the volunteers of the Serbian Guard - and I believe those are
22 the volunteers of the Serbian Renewal Movement - that they have accepted
23 the uniform insignia, that they are referred to as good soldiers, good
24 fighters, the report being by the commander of the 9th Corps, is that not
25 a clear sign that they are within or, rather, subordinated to the
1 9th Corps?
2 A. Could I see the signature on this document, please, because this
3 is an excerpt from a book.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is an excerpt
5 from a book, and the document reads, if you can see in brackets on the
6 first page which is VR, which means by one's own hand, that is in
7 Croatian. That means that there is a signature, a personal signature by
8 the signatory.
9 A. First of all, this is not an original document of the kind that
10 could have been written by the commander of the 9th Corps,
11 General Vukovic, and I prove this by the following -- please revert to
12 the first page.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we, Your Honours, have the
14 first page on the screen again because it has a VR sign and MP, which is
15 the stamp, the place for the stamp.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is it. Thank you. First of
17 all, this heading, where it says, commander of the 9th Corps, strictly
18 confidential, number so-and-so, the 2nd of December, 1991, and then it
19 goes on to say Commander Lieutenant-General Vladimir Vukovic.
20 According to the rules of official correspondence and also
21 according to combat rules, let me not list them all at this point, a
22 document of this kind simply does not exist.
23 Secondly, never does a subordinate address a superior. This
24 document -- I don't know to whom this is actually addressed here. We
25 don't say a report [B/C/S Spoken], but [B/C/S Spoken] report.
1 Thirdly, what does Vukovic -- Vladimir Vukovic have to do with
2 volunteers who are in Montenegro? He is the commander of the 9th Corps
3 in Knin, and from Knin to Podgorica there are several hundred kilometres.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Sir, let us not waste time. Let us not comment any more. This
6 is a report on soldiers who happened to be with the JNA in Knin at that
7 time and hailed from Montenegro and Macedonia; inter alia, reference is
8 made to members of the Serbian Guard who evidently are under the command
9 of the 9th Corps. At the end of this document there is a footnote.
10 There is a stamp on this document.
11 A. According to what I have seen, I repeat this is not a standard,
12 an original document according to its content and according to its form.
13 Q. All right. Thank you.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I move that this
15 document be MFI'd until we have the document's original from Croatia.
16 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D100 marked for
17 identification, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D100 marked for
20 identification, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D100 is marked for identification.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now see 2D181
23 on the screen.
24 Q. Mr. Maksic, please look at this document. This is an official
25 note of an operative of the state security department of Korenica in the
1 SAO of Krajina about the latest information about the activities of the
2 Serbian Guard in our area, and the date it bears is the 23rd of October,
4 If you take a look at this document, what it says is that the
5 recently arrived detachment of the Serbian guard, 50-men strong, has
6 been -- has placed themselves under the command of the Gracac OS TO,
7 which is the municipal of the Territorial Defence, more precisely under
8 the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Spanovic ...
9 Are you aware of this?
10 A. No. But it is possible.
11 Q. Did the Territorial Defence Staff of Gracac municipality, was it
12 under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Spanovic at the time?
13 A. I do not remember. They changed the commanders, that is, but
14 about what you said, the volunteers would not be dispatched directly to
15 the TO staff of Krajina but to the individual TO staffs of the different
16 municipalities which directly communicated with men, with the people who
17 actually gathered, armed, and equipped the volunteers. So I would be
18 supposed to know about this but I don't know about it, and it is the 23rd
19 of October, 1991. It is possible that 21, as you say --
20 Q. Fifty.
21 A. Fifty volunteers, in fact, went and placed themselves under the
22 command of the Municipal Staff of the TO of Gracac. It is possible but I
23 don't know about it.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can, Your Honours, can this document
1 also receive an MFI number, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The number would be.
3 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D101, marked for
4 identification, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And it will keep that status for the time being.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have another
7 document in connection with the Serbian Guard. Actually, I have a whole
8 lot of them, but this will be sufficient because of the limited time for
9 this witness. Can we have 2D182, please.
10 Q. I will tell you what this is about, Mr. Maksic, before it is
11 shown on the screen. It is the report of the command of the 1st Brigade
12 of the TO of the IKM, which is the former command post of the 9th Corps
13 of the 12th -- of the Otisic IKM, the forward command post of the 12th of
14 November, 1991. You can see it says on the left side command -- command
15 1 number TO of the SAO Krajina, at the IKM of the -- SS, I believe,
16 stands for village of Otisic on the 12th of November, 1991, report on the
17 engagement of a unit of the Serbian Guard.
18 The document starts with the words "an infantry platoon, strong
19 unit of the Serbian Guard, Vojvoda Misic was one of the units sent to
20 assist the forces securing the axis leading to Sinj."
21 Did you see --
22 A. Yes, I did, but I don't see who it is addressed to, this
24 Q. This is a report on the engagement --
25 A. But to whom is it addressed?
1 Q. We shall see in the second page.
2 A. But we should -- that should be on the first page to the
3 addressee. This is what it says here is the command of the 1st Brigade,
4 and I will say a few words about that.
5 Q. Let us go through the entire document. Let us now look at page
7 A. All right.
8 Q. Where it says the 13th of November, 1991, Vrlika --
9 A. I cannot see that. I have the first page on my screen which says
10 the forward command post Otisic. I cannot see the second page. I don't
11 have it.
12 Q. So the 13th of November 1991 Vrlika, the commander of the -- the
13 commander of the IKM towards Sinj, the Commander Lieutenant-Colonel
14 Rade Rajic, et cetera. Are you familiar with the names of these
16 A. Rajic is -- I'm familiar with Rajic. He was my superior, and he
17 was there in the field, but I'm not familiar with this document, because
18 this brigade was resubordinated to the 9th Corps. And I suppose that the
19 report sent by the commander of the 1st Brigade from the first page is
20 sending this to the commander of the 9th Corps and not to the TO staff.
21 Q. From the forward command post they seem to be sending it to the
22 brigade command; right? You can see that.
23 A. When I say to the command of the 9th Corps the resubordination
24 involved the 9th Brigade of the JNA. I don't know which exactly brigade
25 of the JNA it was with the commander of the brigade being
1 Commander Djukic. This brigade was resubordinated to the 9th Corps
2 according to this, to this particular JNA commander. If it's not clear,
3 I can repeat.
4 Q. Let us just be more specific. So you have never seen this
5 document before, but according to the content and the signatories, you
6 believe that --
7 A. Rade Rajic, yes, that is for sure. The other ones -- as for the
8 other ones, I don't know them.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document also
11 be assigned a number?
12 JUDGE ORIE: The MFI number would be.
13 THE REGISTRAR: D102, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Can we now
16 see 65 ter -- Exhibit 65 ter 352 on the screen.
17 Q. Mr. Maksic, we shall now move away from the SPO volunteers, and
18 please take a look and read this brief document which is dated the 25th
19 of November, 1991, and it is from Petrinja. Please read it. Read it to
20 yourself so that we do not waste time, and please tell me whether you
21 know anything about it.
22 A. You mean this which is half-typed and half-handwritten.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have the
24 second page. Actually, it is the second page that we are interested in
25 B/C/S, and the English page is the right one.
1 Q. Take a look at this page, Mr. Maksic. Does the 25th of November,
2 1991, that is the time when you were in the area of the SAO Krajina?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. For the Municipal Assembly of Petrinja, Dr. Radovan Maljkovic,
5 did you know him?
6 A. No. We had this commander, Krajina was divided into areas Banja
7 and Kordun, and our commander was Colonel Vujaklija , who regrettably is
9 Q. According to what you know, we can see here that members of the
10 unit of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan were participating in fightings on JNA
11 and Territorial Defence positions in Petrinja municipality, and that the
12 unit would be commanded by a senior officer and would be part of and
13 under the command of the commander of the 2nd MTB of the 622nd Motorised
14 Brigade, Bogdan Ercegovac?
15 A. I don't know anything about this document, and I don't see how it
16 relates to the -- how the president of the Municipal Assembly of Petrinja
17 had anything to do with the execution of combat actions, but he is the
18 one who signed it.
19 Q. Are you familiar with the name of Bogdan Ercegovac?
20 A. Bogdan?
21 Q. Bogdan Ercegovac.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Was the 622nd Motorised Brigade in that area?
24 A. There was a brigade. I don't know what its name according to
25 establishment was. I know that the commander of this zone was
1 Colonel Vujaklija and he was the one who sent reports to us. He didn't
2 send us this.
3 Q. This has a signature and a stamp. Do you have any reason to
4 doubt the authenticity of this document?
5 A. No, I don't doubt its authenticity. It's just that I doubt the
6 signature. I mean for the municipality of Petrinja -- for the Petrinja
7 municipality Assembly and signed by the president. I'm saying what --
8 what is the relevance? What is the connection between the president of
9 this municipality and the execution of combat actions.
10 Q. I will just ask you one question and then I shall move for a
11 break. You said that there existed municipal TO staffs.
12 A. Yes, in every municipality.
13 Q. Were they commanded by the president of the municipality?
14 A. Well, they were.
15 Q. Why are you then surprised by the fact that the president of the
16 municipality says that he will invite units of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan
17 to participate in fighting in positions of the JNA and TO?
18 A. Because that should have been done by the TO commander of that
19 particular municipality.
20 Q. Did you not say a minute ago that the municipal units of
21 Territorial Defence were commanded by the president of the municipality?
22 A. Through the TO -- municipal TO commander.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. Just like the supreme commander of any -- in any state actually
25 does it through the Supreme Staff, Supreme Command Staff. And the
1 document is original.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I move that this
3 document be admitted into the case file.
4 JUDGE ORIE: One of my concerns is that the translation is
5 bearing stamps of other cases, and I would like to have a clean copy for
6 translation. You see that, Mr. Bakrac. Could you upload, not
7 necessarily immediately, but could you upload a clean version of the --
8 of the --
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a Prosecution
10 document, but if you wish us to assist, we shall ask for a properly
11 visible translation of the stamp which it bears.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't ask for that. As a matter of fact. I was
13 referring to the stamp I find at the top of the document, which is a
14 reference to -- you see that. Exhibit Number --
15 THE REGISTRAR: To be Exhibit D140 [sic] Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's helpful information but it was not the
17 matter I addressed. Do you see that, Mr. Bakrac?
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, are you referring to
19 the English version or to the B/C/S version?
20 JUDGE ORIE: To the English version. I was talking about the
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] "OTP reference --"
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move a little bit further up in the English
24 version. Yes. You see there is a full stamp and all kind of information
25 about the status this document had in another case. That's not what I
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that this is
3 a number P of this exhibit from some other case. I believe it is the
4 Milosevic case, but we can ask for --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's relatively easy if you just take that
6 part out, but I do see the other point. I noticed already that the
7 translation doesn't say anything about a stamp being on the original at
8 the bottom, another reason, perhaps, to review the translation and the
9 accuracy in full of the English version.
10 Madam Registrar, you have already assigned a number to this
11 document which is marked for identification.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. It is Exhibit D103. I just see the
13 transcript says 104, which is incorrect. It's 103, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in connection with
16 volunteers, I only have another video-clip, so in accordance with what
17 you instruct us, we can either go through that video-clip or take our
18 break now and then I would be finished actually.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You'd be finished with your cross-examination?
20 MR. BAKRAC: No, no.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No. I wondered what you were finished with, but
22 let's --
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I would have been done
24 with this subject on volunteers, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we do that after the break. We'll
1 first have a break and we'll resume at five minutes past 4.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 3.39 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, you may proceed.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Before I
6 proceed, owing to the goodness of Mr. Laugel, the last document that we
7 saw, D103, was replaced in the e-court and now it bears no stamp any
9 Q. Mr. Maksic, I would now like to play a video-clip that is four
10 minutes long and a couple of seconds more. This is a celebration, and I
11 won't tell you where. I would just ask you to pay attention to the site,
12 the place, and also the individuals that appear in the footage, and then
13 I will have a few questions for you after the video-clip has been shown.
14 So please pay attention to the place where this is transpiring, where
15 this is happening, and the individuals that are shown.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Our blood drenched Serbian land."
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Maksic, we will pause here. The last -- or, rather, the
20 speaker after Arkan, and we could agree that this is Arkan, could you
21 tell us who the other speaker was?
22 A. The other speaker? Well, the first one was Milan Martic, and the
23 other one is not familiar.
24 Q. The person that we see on the screens before us, you don't know
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you know that this is Sejdo Bajramovic, the then member of
3 Presidency of the SFRY?
4 A. I do know that he was a member of the SFRY Presidency, but I
5 never saw him.
6 Q. Can you recognise the location where this ceremony was held?
7 A. This was, in my view, in Golubic, at the camp. This place looks
8 like Golubic to me. I --
9 Q. Could you recognise any of the military personnel there, anyone
10 from the Yugoslav People's Army?
11 A. Well, I could see Colonel Ratko Mladic. I recognised Hadzic,
12 although I've never seen him in person, but I did see him appearing on
13 television. So I recognised those four individuals, Martic,
14 Ratko Mladic, Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and one more person.
15 Q. Well, let me try and help you. Could you recognise Jugoslav
16 Kostic, also a member of the Presidency?
17 A. Yes, that's correct, Jugoslav Kostic. Well, I don't know exactly
18 what he was at the time, whether he was the president of the Presidency
19 or a member, but I'm not sure.
20 Q. Are you referring to the Presidency of the Federal Republic of
22 A. Yes. At that time, it was still a federal republic.
23 Q. In other words, it was the Federal Socialist Republic of
24 Yugoslavia; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, is it your intention to identify persons
2 who we see, or is there any other matter which you would like to raise,
3 because I take it that the presence of most of these people would be easy
4 to -- to agree on with the Prosecution. Why should we ask a witness
5 whether he saw Mr. Mladic or whomever if that could be easily agreed
6 upon? So if there's any other matter that you'd like to raise, please do
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one -- or, rather,
9 two more questions.
10 Q. One was could you recognise any other officials of the Serbian
12 A. No.
13 Q. In the footage that we've seen, did you see and recognise any
14 official of the Republic of Serbia MUP or the Republic of Serbia State
15 Security Service?
16 A. No, I did not.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. I would now like to go back -- but I see
18 Mr. Farr is on his feet.
19 MR. FARR: I apologise for interrupting. I just wanted to make
20 sure that the record was clear as to what video was being shown. The ERN
21 is V000-6733, and a portion of that from 2 minutes and 45 seconds to 4
22 minutes and 38 seconds has been admitted as P14, but I believe that the
23 portion up to 2 minutes and 45 seconds is not yet in evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll deal with the bookkeeping. Mr. Bakrac will
25 have uploaded this, I take it, and will have specified it precisely.
1 Let's not -- I'm already a bit concerned about what we did the last six
2 or seven minutes. The only thing, the location, fine, that's what the
3 witness told us. Everything else, it seems to me, was perfectly fit for
4 to agree upon. Who spoke, who's there, I mean, these are not matters for
5 which we have to spend minutes and minutes in court, do we. Please
6 proceed, and try to get -- to elicit evidence -- to elicit evidence which
7 assists us.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due respect,
10 if you just allow me another moment. I was not present during the owing
11 statement made by the Prosecution, but I did look at their pre-trial
12 brief, and the subject matter or the gist of this -- these proceedings is
13 the involvement of representatives of the Serbian MUP. Now, here we can
14 see members of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia Presidency who are
15 present in Golubic --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, fine, but why do we have to hear that from a
17 witness if you could agree on that? Is there any dispute about the
18 person shown? Is there any dispute about Mr. -- even some persons the
19 witness doesn't know personally, Mr. Hadzic. Why spend time on that in
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, is there any dispute about the persons
23 shown on this video on they are.
24 MR. FARR: Your Honour, I personally don't know for every single
25 one of them, but we certainly could have agreed to most of those people.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that's what you're expected to do. Tell
2 the Prosecution we would like to show this. We find it's relevant for
3 this and this person. We want the witness to tell us what the location
4 is. Do we agree on the persons appearing. And then you sit together and
5 you don't have to spend time on it in court. It's a waste of time,
6 unless there's anything else you would like to ask the witness about.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We will do
9 so in the future.
10 Q. Mr. Maksic, I would like now to go back to what my learned friend
11 Mr. Jordash asked you about, namely the plea agreement for the late
12 Mr. Babic, paragraph 26. First of all, I would like to ask you whether
13 it is true that sometime in the first half of 1991 Mr. Babic got in touch
14 with you and asked you to -- and tried to persuade you to come to the
15 Territorial Defence Staff, Krajina Territorial Defence Staff.
16 A. Yes, that's correct. He tried to get me there.
17 Q. In the Belgrade area, could you tell us approximately how many
18 colonels there were in the Belgrade military area?
19 A. I don't know. There were quite a few of them, because the
20 command of the defence staff of the city of Belgrade was there. The
21 chief -- the chiefs -- the military academy, the medical hospital was
22 there. So there were a lot of colonels. I don't know exactly the
24 Q. Could you please explain to us why it was that Mr. Babic asked
25 you personally, you particularly, and got in touch with you particularly
1 in order to try to persuade you to come and assume that function in
3 A. Well, while I was the commander of -- a regiment commander, I was
4 in touch with a platoon commander. He was a communications platoon
5 commander, Kalicanin, and he got in touch with Dragus who was from
6 Krajina and who was a resident of Belgrade. I don't know what it was
7 that they discussed, but Kalicanin probably proposed to him in view of
8 the fact that the Belgrade Corps was --
9 Q. Sir, I appreciate what you are trying to tell us about, but could
10 you please be brief in your answers and just focus on my questions. Why
11 did Babic ask you particularly to go there?
12 A. Well, because in the Belgrade Corps I was considered -- not only
13 in the Belgrade Corps but also elsewhere I was considered to be an expert
14 on Territorial Defence because I had under my control most of the TO
15 units from the Belgrade Corps.
16 Q. And this was sometime in June or July 1991 or before June or
18 A. Well, yes. I believe I was taken to his sister's apartment in
19 Zemun, and we had a conversation of some hour or so.
20 Q. We can agree, then, that paragraph 26 which you discussed with
21 Mr. Jordash, where it says that as of July 1991 Babic as the minister of
22 defence signed the orders to organise TO formations in Krajina and
23 appointed its commander. In other words, what is stated there is
24 completely in accordance with what you're saying -- what you're telling
25 us here: As of July and June Babic had been trying to contact personnel
1 and find the appropriate people to go to Krajina.
2 A. Well, probably so, but I don't know. He didn't say.
3 Q. Do you know whether Babic had good connections within the
4 General Staff of the Yugoslav Army?
5 A. No, he did not. If you're referring to the Chief of the General
6 Staff and his collegium, then the answer is no.
7 Q. Sir, I would now like you to see a Prosecution document, 65 ter
8 392. 65 ter 392, please.
9 Sir, this is an order dated 8th of August, 1991. Can you
10 recognise the stamp and signature of Dr. Milan Babic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you see that on the 8th of August, 1991, he appointed
13 Milan Martic as the deputy commander of Territorial Defence, and then in
14 brackets it says "(armed forces) of the Krajina SAO."
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is that in keeping with what was mentioned in Article 26 of the
17 plea agreement where Babic said that he had appointed on the 8th of
18 August, 1991, Milan Martic as deputy commander of Territorial Defence of
19 SAO Krajina and that at a later date he himself issued a decision whereby
20 he appointed himself as the commander of the TO forces in SAO Krajina?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's request: Could the counsel
22 please read a little more slowly, and could they make pause between
23 question and answer.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I will try to be briefer. So in the plea agreement in paragraph
1 26 it says that Mr. Babic, on the 1st of August, appointed himself as
2 commander of the armed forces of Krajina SAO, including all Special
3 Purpose Units in SAO Krajina and TO units, and that on the 8th of August,
4 1991, Milan Babic appointed Milan Martic as deputy commander of the TO
6 Does this document confirm that?
7 A. Well, you see, there's something that is illogical here. He is
8 the commander of the armed forces of Krajina, and then he appoints Martic
9 as deputy commander of Territorial Defence. Now, who was the commander
10 of the TO? So whose deputy is Milan Martic supposed to be?
11 Q. Mr. Witness, that's precisely my point. Now, you who were
12 there -- now, we see that this document is dated 8th of August. You're
13 right there in September.
14 A. On the 1st of October.
15 Q. Do you know who was the commander of Territorial Defence?
16 A. Well, no. There was no commander because why would then Djujic
17 be sent there? Why would he go there?
18 Q. Do you allow the possibility then that Babic himself in his plea
19 agreement says that he was the commander of the armed forces and the TO
20 and that on the 8th of August he appointed Martic as his deputy?
21 A. I really don't know anything about that, and I couldn't say
22 anything about it.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender
24 this document into evidence.
25 MR. FARR: No objection, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D104, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, we spent a couple of minutes just to establish
4 that there is a document which confirms in paragraph 26, isn't it? Any
5 dispute about that, Mr. Farr?
6 MR. FARR: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please come to ask focused questions which
8 assist the Chamber. I mean, if that is what Mr. Babic said in his plea
9 agreement, if there is a clear order in which he says, "I appoint
10 Mr. Martic as deputy commander," then to ask does this confirm what is
11 found in the plea agreement, you don't need a witness, I could tell you
12 because this exactly says what is found in the plea agreement. If there
13 are any issues as to who then was the commander, then focus on that
14 instead of asking useless questions on matters which you could easily
15 agree upon. The document says it.
16 I mean -- Mr. Bakrac, we are here to be assisted by the evidence
17 of witnesses, not to spend time on not receiving anything in addition to
18 what we know already. Please proceed. Keep in mind that, as I always
19 say, that we'll closely monitor the way in which you use your time for
20 cross-examination, and we're for the going to grant you all the time you
21 asked for if you proceed in this way. And that's true for the video.
22 That's true for this document. So please get a clear focus on what
23 you're asking the witness.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Could we
25 now please see P965. That is a document dated 18th September, 1991, sent
1 to the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia to
2 General Colonel Simovic personally. The document was sent by
3 Minister Milan Martic, and it is a request for ammunition and other
4 military equipment for the needs of the TO.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. What date are you
6 referring to, the 18th of September?
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I don't know anything about this document.
10 Q. Would you please take a look at page 1 now.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 2.
12 Q. Sir, I don't want to go through all the nine pages of this
13 document, but in essence, this is a request for ammunition and equipment
14 for the Territorial Defences of all the various municipal TO staffs. Are
15 you familiar with this, that municipal TO staffs in SAO Krajina were
16 being armed by the Ministry of Defence of Serbia?
17 A. Well, they were armed, but where the weapons came from, who had
18 sent it, that I don't know.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. This is
20 already in evidence as P965.
21 Q. Now, Witness, I would like to show you another document.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please pull up 65 ter --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please repeat the number.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's P965.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, was there any dispute about the last
1 document, that this is a request for ammunition and other armaments sent
2 to -- and that was ...
3 MR. FARR: No, Your Honour, and this document was admitted
4 yesterday, as Mr. Bakrac indicated.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And there's no dispute about the -- what it -- what
6 it is and what it -- because the witness couldn't say anything about it.
7 So therefore -- let's look at the next document.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but I did not know
9 whether the witness knew anything about this document or not. That's why
10 I was very brief in my question, and his answer was brief.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, before we see the next document, let me ask you
12 this: After the Vance Plan, after the 9th Corps withdrew from Krajina,
13 did it leave behind its weaponry and 90 per cent of its personnel?
14 A. Well, I was not in Krajina at the time, but I know that it did
15 leave behind some of its weaponry, not all of it, and since the 9th Corps
16 was made up of mostly Krajina personnel, about 60 per cent of its
17 personnel was from Krajina, they just stayed behind.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now please see
19 65 ter 412.
20 Q. Mr. Farr showed you this document, Witness, yesterday, and I
21 believe he discussed and asked you about payments and monies. The
22 document reads: The Republic of Serbia, Ministry of Defence. The date
23 is the 1st of November, 1991. It was signed for General Simovic by, as
24 far as I can remember, Mr. Kuzmanovic. You recognise his signature. And
25 now I would like to ask for page 6 of the annex, the attachment, where
1 the manpower levels are mentioned, the number of men, members of the TO
2 of Krajina is shown.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please see page 6 of this
4 document. That's 65 ter -- if you just bear with me for a moment. ERN
5 number is 2129689 of this attachment that I would like to see. That's
6 page 7, please.
7 Can we enlarge it a bit, please, so that the witness may see it.
8 Q. Mr. Maksic, under 1, operational area Knin, 12.000 men. Do you
9 see that?
10 A. Operational zone Lika. Let me just have a look. There was no
11 operational zone Knin. There was northern Dalmatia. As for 12.000 men,
12 I don't know who it was that he took into account. Was it the TO units
13 and MUP units?
14 Q. Sir, I apologise. Look at the title. A table of the number of
15 personnel of the SAO Krajina, Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem TO. So
16 we can clearly see that it's TO. So you can see Knin 12.000.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Operational zone Lika, 5.500.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Operational zone Kordun and Banja, 19.000.
21 A. No, this isn't a good count.
22 Q. You say that these numbers here are exaggerated. So in your
23 view, what was the number?
24 A. Well, 5 to 6.000.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Please be so kind as to tell us the
1 following: The special unit of the MUP of the Serbian Republic of
2 Krajina, how many men did it have?
3 A. I don't know anything about it. I don't know anything about a
4 special unit. I only heard of one, but I never saw it. I don't know
5 their head count, composition, or location.
6 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Maksic, giving a statement on the 29th and
7 30th of August? You had an interview with the OTP some five or six days
8 ago, and under item 5 you say special unit of the MUP of Krajina did not
9 have any tasks, nor did it take part in any of the operations. You think
10 that members of this special unit did not have or undergo any special
11 training. Is this what you told Mr. Farr a couple of days back?
12 A. In relation of the special unit of MUP.
13 Q. Yes. "[In English] The special unit of the Krajina MUP did not
14 have any tasks or engage in any operations."
15 A. I don't recall stating this. If I did say this, then I was
16 wrong. I did hear of a special unit existing, but as I say, I never saw
17 it, and I never heard of it carrying out a single task over the three
18 months. I don't recall it ever being engaged within the 9th or 59th
19 Corps. Did it really exist? I don't know. I never saw it, and I never
20 saw its establishment or composition.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Maksic, you've just explained to us that you
22 didn't know that they were engaged in any sort of operation or whether
23 they existed.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You will recall giving a statement to the OTP in January of 2005;
1 is that right?
2 A. I think that it happened in February of 2004.
3 Q. Well, the statement says the 25th and the 26th of January, 2005,
4 Mr. Maksic.
5 A. As far as I remember, I was there in February of 2004, and if
6 what -- if this is what the document says, then that must be the case.
7 Then I must be mistaken.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Instead of quarreling about the exact date, I take
9 it that this could be resolved. Read to the witness what you want to put
10 to him. Please proceed.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness, in paragraph 40 of the statement, you said the special
13 unit of the MUP of SAO Krajina was stationed in Knin and was able to
14 operate throughout the territory of the Krajina. It did not have a firm
15 structure, and it consisted of a group of between 30 and 50 men.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So what I read out to you is correct.
18 A. Yes, it's correct.
19 Q. So you do know that a special unit existed.
20 A. Well, they called it a special unit, but it was no special unit.
21 They were not specialists trained in special tasks. That's why I said
22 that it was no special unit of any sort. What I said was that the MUP of
23 Krajina styled it as a special unit, but my claim was that it only had
24 the between 30 to 50 men who were engaged where and as necessary. If
25 needed, men from other police units of the various municipalities would
1 be recruited in order to man this particular special unit, and when they
2 were no longer required they would go back to their original
4 Q. Mr. Maksic, as you stated a couple of days ago, during your stay
5 there you had never heard of this unit ever being engaged in any action
6 of any sort.
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. Tell me, in addition to this unit there existed municipal
9 secretariats of the interior; is that right?
10 A. I don't know about that.
11 Q. Do you know what the manpower levels of the regular police force
13 A. I don't.
14 Q. Thank you. Witness, was Mr. Babic in command of the TO staff
15 while you were there?
16 A. In formal and legal terms, yes, but in reality, no.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we call up 2D213. I need the
18 bottom part of it. And this is the start of the document.
19 Q. There is a place for the stamp which says -- the round stamp of
20 the SAO Krajina. Dr. Milan Babic signed personally. To the command of
21 the 3rd Operational Zone. In other words, the order issued by the TO
22 staff to relocate 130-millimetre battery and to make them ready to fire
23 upon the target of Zagreb.
24 Are you familiar with this document wherein Milan Babic, the
25 commander of the armed forces, ordered the Territorial Defence, that's to
1 say the command of the 3rd operational area, to fire upon Zagreb?
2 A. No. On the 27th -- well, I had already gone by the 27th, and I
3 only returned on the 28th to hand over my duties. So I wasn't in the
4 Krajina at the time. However, at the time, the 9th Corps was still
5 deployed in its area of responsibility. I don't think that anyone
6 resubordinated a rocket system, as is stated here cannons --
7 Q. A 130-millimetre battery.
8 A. Yes, to fire upon Zagreb. Where would Babic have found a
9 130-millimetre battery if the 9th Corps was still in its area of
11 Q. Mr. Maksic, please have a look. It seems that Babic issues an
12 order to the command of the 3rd operational area.
13 A. Yes, but whose operational zone is this? I don't think that
14 Babic wrote this. I think somebody wrote it for him. He didn't even
15 sign it. It doesn't have a stamp. There existed two operational areas.
16 One was that of Banja and Kordun, and the other that of Lika and Northern
18 Q. Mr. Maksic, did you not in your earlier statement speak of the
19 existence of three operational areas?
20 A. No. Well, there existed three or four operational zones or areas
21 which were then joined. They were transformed. But at the time I was
22 there, there were two operational areas.
23 Q. Mr. Maksic, it is possible that this document is the cause of
24 confusion. In the footnote it says that Milan Babic signed the document
25 himself and that the document bore a round stamp which said "Knin TO
1 staff." Did you have such a round stamp which said "Knin TO staff"?
2 A. Yes, we did.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours can we have this
5 documented admitted into evidence, please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't this one out of the series that should be
7 marked for identification.
8 MR. BAKRAC: MFI'd.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, MFI'd.
10 Madam Registrar, I think we got stuck at D1 --
11 MR. BAKRAC: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I did not decide. D104 is admitted into evidence,
13 and then the next document shown and not yet admitted into evidence was?
14 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D105 MFI, Your Honours.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Maksic, can you explain to us what were units attached to the
17 staff, what do they mean?
18 A. Well, they are units in service of the staff. They provide for
19 the vehicles, food supplies. They make arrangements for accommodation,
20 and then they also include various speciality unit such as transport
21 unit, communications unit, et cetera.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. We don't have much time.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we call up 65 ter 3967.
24 Q. Mr. Maksic, while we're waiting for the document to appear, are
25 you familiar with the name of Milos Pupovac?
1 A. Yes, I know him very well.
2 Q. Who was he?
3 A. Assistant for logistics in the command of the defence for the
4 city of Belgrade. He hails from a village close to Knin.
5 Q. Mr. Maksic, please look at the stamp in the upper left-hand
6 corner. Does it state there the Serbian Autonomous District of the
7 Krajina, Territorial Defence Staff, and then reference numbers and the
8 date of the 16th of December, and then it says Knin. Is this the stamp
9 belonging to your staff?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Herein the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia is
12 requested to provide ammunition, various types of vehicles, and you can
13 see what is listed here, materiel assets. It is signed by
14 Colonel Pupovac, and the stamp belonging to your staff is affixed here.
15 A. On the 16th of December --
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. I think that Milos Pupovac only arrived there on the 27th of
18 December. As I was about to set out from Knin, Milos Pupovac had just
19 arrived. I don't see how he could have signed this document.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll the document to the
21 bottom. Can we see the signature and the stamp.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The stamp is all right, as is the
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
25 Q. Therefore, can you tell us, do you know -- did you, as a TO staff
1 for the purposes of the units attached to your staff, receive these
2 assets from the ministry of defence of Republika Srpska?
3 A. No, we did not receive anything. We were also supposed to
4 formulate Martic's requirements. We also reduced them, and we only
5 received from the Ministry of Defence some 30 --
6 Q. Telephone sets. You told us about it yesterday.
7 A. Nothing else.
8 Q. Mr. Maksic, you said that you copied Martic's requests. And
9 please pause there. I want to finish my question. The moment you got
10 there and set up the TO staff in Knin, Milan Martic no longer had
11 anything to do with Territorial Defence; is that right?
12 A. I didn't set up the staff. It was General Djujic who was the
13 commander who set it up. I was just the head of the training department.
14 So we set up the staff, and by that point Mr. Martic was minister of the
16 Q. And no longer deputy of the TO commander.
17 A. No. He dropped by my office on a couple of occasions, but he
18 never interfered with the work of the staff. The staff comprised the
19 four of us. I've already said that.
20 Q. But evidently you did have units attached to your staff?
21 A. Well, we tried to set them up, but we did not have enough
23 Q. Now that you've mentioned manpower, can we look at 2D207, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, one question. Your -- your questions
25 about the signature of Mr. Pupovac, was that a mistake or ...
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. This was due to
2 the facts that Mr. Maksic had his suspicions about the date, but he did
3 confirm Mr. Pupovac's signature and the stamp. I forgot to ask that the
4 document be tendered into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I now see it, yes.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I say something?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, it's -- it's on e-court. It's a
8 six-page document. That, of course -- apparently you're dealing only
9 with the first two pages; is that correct?
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think that there is some confusion as to whether
12 the transcript reflects that I did admit into evidence D104, and
13 that's -- ask the witness to look at 2D207. Please proceed.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. Before the document appears on
15 our screen, I would like to revert back to the earlier document.
16 Q. So the units attached to the staff are military police units,
17 sabotage units, et cetera, and you say that these units were never
19 A. No. Not a single one of them. We had the total of 20 men who
20 stayed there for 28 hours alone and that only because there was an
21 allowance that was still due to them. Thereupon they left, and we had no
22 resources to make sure that they stayed with us.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Let us look at 2D207 now. This is
24 another document which is an excerpt from a book. I'm telling you this
25 so that there arises no confusion. And according to this book,
1 Dusan Kasim signed this. Was he a Chief of Staff?
2 A. Yes, he was a Chief of Staff.
3 Q. We don't see this in B/C/S, 2D207.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.
5 JUDGE ORIE: What I see is that in English 285 -- 285 appears at
6 the top of the page. And on the Serbian side we have to move to the next
7 page, I take it. In --
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. You're right.
9 It's the next page.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Now would I like to have back in the English version
11 with 285 on top of the page.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And I would like the Serbian version
13 to be enlarged for the benefit of the witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, this is not exactly, for one reason or
15 another -- English and B/C/S seems to be twinned more or less. The
16 English version is right now, and now we need -- yes. Could the B/C/S
17 version be enlarged.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Maksic, are you able to read this? What we have is again a
20 letter from the TO staff in Knin on the 11th of December, 1991, at the
21 time you were there for Colonel Vukosavljevic. It's an overview of
22 independent units of the TO which are manoeuvre units in character as per
23 Municipal Staffs. The Knin TO Municipal Staff numbers two brigades with
24 1.328 men each; is this right?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Is there a reason for you to suspect that Mr. Dusan Kasum, your
2 Chief of Staff would falsify the information, or is it the case perhaps
3 that on this date he was not privy to the number of men in the TO unit?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat his answer.
5 A. Two thousand six hundred and fifty-six. Since he dealt with this
6 business he gathered a list of 2.000 men. Actually, what he did was he
7 made up a list of 2.000 men who did not exist in effect in order to be
8 able to put in a request for assets.
9 Q. Look at this, Mr. Maksic, please focus. It says Municipal Staff
10 Knin of Territorial Defence, and it says that it's got 2.000 men -- or,
11 rather, in -- in total. So it's not your staff. It's the staff -- the
12 Municipal Staff of TO Knin.
13 A. Well, that Municipal Staff did not have a single company while I
14 was there. And this is during my time is there, is it not.
15 Q. Yes. And your Chief of Staff wrote this to the Ministry of
16 Defence of Serbia. In other words, he was falsifying information.
17 A. This isn't true. No, this isn't correct. In the town proper --
18 or as it -- in relation to towns, it was only in Benkovac that we were
19 able to set up a staff, and it was resubordinated to the 9th Corps. I
20 think that the commander's name was Djurica.
21 Q. So is it your testimony that in Knin there did not exist a single
22 TO company?
23 A. That's true for the Municipal Staff in Knin. There we did not
24 have a single unit. So we're not talking about the TO staff. We're
25 talking about the Knin Municipal Staff. They did not have a single TO
2 Q. Mr. Maksic, a moment ago I showed you an overview totaling 37.000
3 men, and you said that this was an exaggeration. Then you volunteered
4 your estimate as to how many men the TO Krajina had. Can you repeat that
6 A. Well, I don't know how many men there were. I think 5 to 6.000
7 in all. If both of these zones together, and I found a piece of
8 information --
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. You said 6 to 7.000. Did you say 5 to 6.000
10 or 6 to 7.000?
11 A. Six to 7.000. I don't know exactly. Don't hold me to that, but
12 it didn't have more than what I said. And I'm referring to the TO
13 municipal staffs.
14 Q. These 7.000 members of Territorial Defence, who were they
15 subordinated to?
16 A. These were municipal staffs of Territorial Defence, and they were
17 subordinated to the president of the municipality concerned. The
18 commander of the TO staff is subordinated to the president of the
19 municipality where he is.
20 Q. In other words, the document where the municipality of Petrinja
21 subordinated Arkan to the TO staff was a legitimate one, was it not?
22 A. Well, in my 42-year career, I never came across something like
24 Q. Well, you just said that a TO staff is under the command of the
25 president of the municipality. What does it mean, that he can issue
1 commands and resubordinate?
2 A. Yes, but through the TO staff in Krajina. He should have sent
3 Arkan's volunteers to the staff, and he should have asked the TO Krajina
4 staff for their approval of the resubordination of these volunteers.
5 What they did instead was they would subordinate these men without the
6 knowledge of the TO staff. They bypassed it. That was the problem.
7 Q. Did the 9th Corps resubordinate Territorial Defence directly or
8 through your staff?
9 A. No. The 9th Corps resubordinated Territorial Defence in the area
10 of combat in which it happened to be directly through municipal staffs
11 and not through the Krajina TO staff. To put it simply, the military
12 procedure as envisaged under command and control was not complied with.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can this 2D document that we've just
15 looked at be admitted into evidence of -- or, rather, MFI'd, 2D207.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first go back for a second to 65 ter 3967,
17 which is the six-pages document where apparently you used the two first
18 pages only. Can we have that document marked for identification so that
19 you check -- check whether that's -- we need the whole of the document or
20 two pages.
21 Mr. Farr.
22 MR. FARR: I believe that 3967 was admitted yesterday as P961.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could we verify that. That seems to be correct, so
24 therefore that leaves no decision to be taken on that.
25 Then the last document that was 2D207, Madam Registrar, could you
1 assign a number for -- so that it's marked for identification.
2 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D106, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm now moving that
6 2D207 be MFI'd.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's what we just did, so please proceed.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I apologise, Your
10 JUDGE ORIE: I had forgotten to activate my microphone. I said
11 that that's what we just had done.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. Witness, please take a look at document 65 ter 447. This is a
15 document dated the 9th of October, 1991. If you're unable to read it, I
16 shall try -- look at the stamp and at the signature. Do you recognise
17 Dr. Babic's signature?
18 A. It is Babic's signature, and it is the government of Krajina
20 Q. This is an order from the 9th of October, 1991. All militia
21 units in the area of the Serbian autonomous region of Krajina shall be in
22 planning and carrying out combat tasks shall be resubordinated to the
23 competent officers, to the competent officer of the Territorial Defence.
24 Can you see that?
25 A. No. No. It is fuzzy. The way it is typewritten, I'm unable to
1 read it.
2 Q. All right. But were you aware of the fact that on the 9th of
3 October, 1991, Dr. Milan Babic issued an order resubordinating militia
4 police units in the area of the Serbian autonomous region of Krajina to
5 the commanders of the Territorial Defence of the municipal organs, that
7 A. No, I am not aware of this order, of the existence of this order,
8 and apart from that it could not have been executed according to the law.
9 I mean, police units could not have been resubordinated, subordinated to
10 the Territorial Defence organs. That had not been possible at that time
11 according to the law and regulations.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I move that this
14 document be admitted into evidence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, you refer to the municipal authorities.
16 Let me just check exactly what you said, something I do not read in the
17 document itself, is it. The commanders of --
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It is my mistake --
19 JUDGE ORIE: That was your mistake. Okay. Then Madam Registrar,
20 the number would be?
21 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D107, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D107 is admitted into evidence.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Q. Witness, please let us take a look now at 65 ter 3900. This is a
1 document -- it will appear on the screen shortly, but I'm making use of
2 this time until it is. This is a document of the Territorial Defence
3 Staff of Obrovac, the 7th of October, 1991, and it is a report of the
4 municipal Territorial Defence Staff commander.
5 First of all, do you know that Captain First Class Jovo Dopudja
6 was the commander of this Territorial Defence Staff?
7 A. Yes, I do, and I know him.
8 Q. Is what is written in this report correct, Mr. Maksic; namely,
9 that the Territorial Defence of Obrovac had two TO detachments, one
10 police unit and a special unit, and two independent companies?
11 A. No, that is not correct.
12 Q. That the militia unit, the police unit, had 92 troops and 10 men
13 from the military police and that a special unit had 25 soldiers? Is
14 that correct?
15 A. No. This was written by Jovo Dopudja and nothing in this is
16 correct. What did the business did the JNA military police have being in
17 the TO?
18 Q. All right.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we now see the second page,
20 Your Honours, to see the signature and the stamp to verify whether the
21 document is authentic, i.e., whether the witness can recognise the stamp
22 and the signature.
23 Q. Do you see, sir, the signature and the stamp? Do you doubt that
24 this was written by Jovo Dopudja, captain first class, commander of the
25 Territorial Defence?
1 A. I do not doubt that he wrote this because only someone like him
2 could have written something like this.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we move that this
5 document be admitted into the file.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The number would be.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D108, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D108 is admitted into evidence, and to the extent
9 the transcript leaves any doubt as to D107, that was admitted into
10 evidence as well. Please proceed.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we have now the 65 ter 4316
12 called up on the screen.
13 Q. Witness, until it appears on the screen, this appears to be a
14 report on the work of the TO of Benkovac municipality of the 25th of
15 November, 1991, at exactly the time when you were in the Krajina.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we see the second page in both
17 English and B/C/S, please.
18 Q. Have you seen the first page? Do you see the first page, namely
19 the date and the stamp?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Look at the second page. I shall read for you the first
22 paragraph from the top which says: "In the beginning of November -- in
23 early November, the Krajina SAO TO staff issued an order to form a TO
24 brigade from the manpower and materiel resources of Benkovac TO. By 5
25 November 1991, it was staffed by men in line with establishment. It
1 received professional leadership and, through a constant supply of
2 materiel and manpower, was fully equipped to carry out the assignments
3 ordered it by the Krajina SAO TO staff and the 9th Corps command."
4 Is what I've read to you correct?
5 A. Yes, everything but one thing, namely that that brigade,
6 immediately after having been set up, and I personally was present during
7 its establishment at the review, it was supposed to be subordinated to
8 the TO staff, and logistically -- in logistic terms it was completely
9 equipped by the 9th Corps. Colonel Ratko Mladic was also there. At that
10 very moment it was resubordinated to the 9th Corps. It became part of
11 its composition so that we did not have the right to command that
12 brigade. It was, namely, excluded from our formation and resubordinated
13 to the 9th Corps.
14 Q. If I understood you correctly, you said although it was a
15 Territorial Defence brigade, it was resubordinated to the 9th Corps.
16 A. Yes, which, as a matter of fact, was feasible under the then
17 rules, military rules.
18 Q. And Lakic Zoran, Zoran Lakic, was the commander?
19 A. Yes, Zoran Lakic was the commander, and before him it was Djujic.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I move that this
21 document be admitted.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment: Could the speakers
23 please not overlap.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Tell me, this --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. Bakrac, you asked me -- you asked the
2 Bench to admit it into evidence and the interpreters asked you not to
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D109, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: 109 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I was
8 receiving suggestions from my client at that moment so I wasn't -- remiss
10 Q. Mr. Maksic, while we are on this document, is it true that this
11 territorial defence brigade comprised a unit -- a Special Purpose Unit?
12 A. No, Dusan Kasum actually set up this brigade, and no such Special
13 Purpose Unit was part of the establishment. If after the resubordination
14 the 9th Corps changed something I don't know anything about that.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May I ask Your Honours --
17 Q. Witness, tell me, when you were giving your statement in 2005, is
18 it true that at a certain point you stated that in the area of Krajina at
19 the end of 1991, when you were there the situation was partly chaotic and
20 that the reason for the chaos were the poor relations between Babic and
22 A. That is correct, but I didn't say partly. I didn't put any such
23 reservation in respect of my statement. The situation was chaotic,
24 period, not partly.
25 Q. And what was the reason for this chaos?
1 A. In our assessment, it was disagreements between the staff and in
2 practice the disagreements between Mr. Martic and Mr. Babic, because they
3 just couldn't see eye-to-eye. They could not establish proper relations,
4 and it was in our interest to establish a single command throughout the
5 territory including with the Territorial Defence.
6 Q. Mr. Maksic, I shall now try to go through this subject matter
7 quickly without documents. I have worked in some military cases, so I
8 know the distinction between action and operation. Action is at the
9 level of Tactical Group -- I mean operation, and an action is at a lower
11 A. Up to the regiment -- regiment and brigades, they execute combat
12 actions, and it is corps that excuse operations. That involves a wide
13 front line, from 20 to 50 kilometres, and the others from 15 to 20
14 kilometres. So combat actions up to brigade level and operations are
15 executed by corps and higher-level units. Actions are carried out by
16 individuals or groups.
17 Q. Witness, is it true that in the statement which I just referred
18 to a while ago, in 2005 you stated that the Yugoslav People's Army, at
19 the time when you were in the Krajina, was in charge of military
20 operations and the M-U-P, the MUP, was in charge of maintaining law and
21 order outside military operations?
22 A. Exactly. That is what I stated.
23 Q. Mr. Maksic, are you familiar with action or operation, and you
24 shall tell me what the correct term is, which took place on the 7th,
25 i.e., 12th of November against Saborsko?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You never heard of that military action?
3 A. No, never.
4 Q. Have you heard of a military action -- the military action in
5 November 1991 against Skabrnja?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And did you hear of any action -- a military action carried out
8 on the 21st of December against the village of Bruska?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And have you heard of an action in the village of Poljana or more
11 precisely the hamlet of Vukovic?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Have you heard of an action on or about the 7th of October in the
14 villages of Bacini and Cerovljani.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you heard at all about these places? That will be my first
18 A. I have heard of some of them and I haven't heard of others.
19 Q. Which ones have you heard of?
20 A. Cerovljani, Saborsko, and some other smaller places or villages.
21 I have heard of them and seen them on the map.
22 Q. Have you heard of Bacin and Cerovljani?
23 A. Of Cerovljani, yes, and this other one, no.
24 Q. And what about Poljana and Lipovaca?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Saborsko?
2 A. Saborsko, yes.
3 Q. And Skabrnja?
4 A. I have heard about Skabrnja.
5 Q. And Bruska?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now you have actually clarified for us what places you've heard
8 of and what places you have not heard of. Let us repeat. You did not
9 hear that the JNA troops or Territorial Defence Staff -- units had any
10 military actions in any of these places?
11 A. No, I didn't hear about that, but I will tell you something else:
12 We do not actually remember those villages. We have topographical maps.
13 You do not have to remember every single village. But the 9th Corps did
14 execute a --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's not repeat everything. If the witness
16 wants to add anything to what he said before, fine. And I think I just
17 interrupted you, "The 9th Corps did execute a --" tell us in one line
18 what they executed.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It executed an operation. The
20 9th Corps against Zadar. I believe that that took place sometime in
21 mid-November --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether Mr. Bakrac is interested to
23 know. If he is, then he will put specific questions on that matter.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I believe
25 that it is time for our break so that I can actually focus on my
1 questions and fulfil my promise, finish within the allotted time, in
2 other words. I believe that I have another 35 minutes. At least that is
3 my estimate. Up to the three hours assigned me.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: I earlier said we will monitor closely. After the
6 break you'll have another 20 minutes, Mr. Bakrac, and we have considered
7 the way in which you used your time in cross-examination. We'd like to
8 restart at five minutes to 6.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, your 20 minutes have now started.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Maksic, you told us a moment ago during the last session that
15 the 9th Corps command directly resubordinated TO units to the JNA;
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now please
19 have in e-court 2D196.
20 Q. Mr. Maksic, this is a document dated 11th of November, 1991,
21 while you were there, and in the heading it says the SAO Krajina TO
22 staff, and then it says "To the Staff Command."
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please blow-up the B/C/S
25 Q. And then it goes on to say:
1 "In order ensure a single command and control over all forces in
2 its area of responsibility, at the request of the 9th Corps command I
3 hereby order.
4 "In order to prepare, organise, and carry out combat activities,
5 the following units shall be resubordinated to the 9th Corps command."
6 And then it says "TO brigade." Can you see that?
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 Q. Can you also see the Knin TO brigade?
9 A. Yes, I can.
10 Q. That's under 1.4 -- it's the fourth. Knin TO Brigade, Golubic,
11 Kosovo, and Cetina Detachments.
12 A. That's okay, but I can't find the Knin Brigade.
13 Q. Well, below Benkovac TO it says Knin TO Brigade. Can you see
15 A. I see Benkovac Brigade -- Knin Brigade. Yes, I can see that.
16 Q. Mr. Maksic, did the Knin Brigade exist or not?
17 A. No, it did not.
18 Q. All right. Let's go on to page 2.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we please see page 2 of this
21 Q. Sir, on page 2 we see place for a stamp, and then in footnote it
22 says -- A round ministry of defence SAO Krajina stamp, commander
23 Lieutenant Colonel General Ilija Djujic, and then it says signed -- was
24 he the commander of your staff?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, please tell us two things. For one, why would the
2 commander, your superior, Ilija Djujic lie about the existence of the
3 Knin Brigade; and two, doesn't this prove that resubordination was done
4 through your staff and not through the 9th Corps and then directly to the
5 TO municipal staffs?
6 A. Well, first of all, this is the first time that I see this order.
7 That's for one. For two: If the commander kept it to himself and did
8 not inform the other members of the staff, that is his own decision.
9 Also, the TO staff commander, Djujic, even had he wanted to, he couldn't
10 lie to the commander of the 9th Corps.
11 Q. Which implies then that there was a TO Knin in existence.
12 A. Well, the TO Knin was in existence but the brigade was not. The
13 TO staff did exist, but there was no TO Knin Brigade.
14 Q. Sir, the Knin Brigade, that's what it reads there. So are you
15 telling us that Ilija Djujic is lying or what?
16 A. He's lying, yes.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender
18 this document into evidence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
20 Madam Registrar.
21 MR. FARR: Your Honour, this is one of the ones that we were
22 going to deal with as MFI, I believe.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's one of the series. Okay.
24 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
25 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D110, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D110 is marked for identification.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Q. Sir, tell me, please, how many men did the 9th Corps number, do
4 you know?
5 A. That's something I don't know.
6 Q. Well, could you give us an approximate figure? You were there.
7 A. Well, I can speculate. Theoretically per establishment I can
8 tell you how many men should be in the corps, but no corps has the same
9 manpower level. It would depend on the axis from which the enemy is
10 expected and so on.
11 Q. Well, sir, we don't have any time here for theory. Please just
12 answer my question.
13 A. Well, I'm just telling you that I don't know how many men it had,
14 and very few people would know it anyway, that kind of information. It
15 would be the corps commander and perhaps his closest associates.
16 Q. Well, what is the standard? How many men would a corps have?
17 A. Well, that's not how we did that. We actually went into figuring
18 out how many regiments and brigades a corps contained.
19 Q. Well, could you please transfer that or translate that into
20 numbers. You're an experienced officer.
21 A. Well, the Knin Corps should have had per establishment about
22 12.000 men.
23 Q. The Knin Corps alone?
24 A. Yes, just the Knin Corps.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Maksic, let us now look at another document,
1 65 ter 3917. Please look at this document and tell us is it familiar.
2 It says in the heading 9th Corps command. The date is the 12th of
3 October, which is the time when you were there, and then the title is
4 "Combatting Crime in the Zone of Combat Activities of the 9th Corps,"
5 sent to the command of the 1st TO Partisan Brigade. Did such a brigade
7 A. Could you tell me what date this is?
8 Q. The 22nd of October, 1991.
9 A. No. That's not true. There was not a single Partisan Brigade.
10 Q. Not the 5th either?
11 A. Not a single one in that area while I was there existed.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 20th of October.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Sir, let us just take a look at the second page just to
15 authenticate this document. Please take a look at the stamp there and
16 let me ask you, did you have occasion to see General Vukovic's signature?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please blow-up the stamp
19 and the signature.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can see it says the
21 9th Corps command, and, yes, that is Vukovic.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Well, judging by the stamp and the signature, would you say this
24 is an authentic document?
25 A. Yes, it's authentic.
1 Q. Can we go back to the first page.
2 A. Well, this document was sent to an existing unit.
3 Q. Mr. Maksic please take a look at page 1. We will have it on the
4 monitors in a moment. It says here:
5 "Commands of the JNA and TO units are obliged to organise an
6 updated register of all members of their units including volunteers and
7 members of the TO from certain towns and put all those armed forces under
8 the command of JNA units at the level of regiment-brigade in the area of
9 responsibility where those units are engaged. All members of armed
10 forces are to be forewarned on the repercussions of violent behaviour,
11 arbitrary behaviour, and engagement in crime."
12 Are you familiar with this order?
13 A. No. I have haven't read it, but I consider it authentic, because
14 one -- there's just one thing that I would like to point out here. It
15 says here "In the area of responsibility where those units are active."
16 So mind that. It says "within the area of responsibility."
17 Q. Now, take a look at the second sentence. It says:
18 "At the level of regiment-brigade in the area of responsibility
19 of those units, these units shall be formed from its own ranks, and they
20 will form platoons to protect citizens and property in local communes and
22 Was that formed?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You said in the area of responsibility. Is that what it said?
25 A. Well, no. Actually, an area of responsibility is one thing, and
1 the area of combat operations is something else. The area of
2 responsibility is a wider term implying a wider area, whereas an area of
3 operations is a more narrow territory. So you can have an area of
4 responsibility - I'll try to put it simply - of this courtroom, and then
5 the area of combat activities just in this one corner.
6 Q. Now, please take a look at the next one. It says:
7 "In carrying out this order, the city command's attached to
8 municipal and -- shall adhere in everything to the instruction on the use
9 of units of the Territorial Defence."
10 Is that something that was obligatory?
11 A. Yes, all of it.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the counsel please
13 slow down a bit.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Could we now please move on to item 5.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited to slow down a bit for the
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters. I
19 will do my best.
20 Q. Could we now please have page 2, and I will now read out for you
21 item 5 on page 2.
22 "Perpetrators of criminal activities shall from the jurisdiction
23 of the military court are to be arrested and through the police of the
24 commands of the regiments brigades of the JNA to be escorted to the
25 military police in Knin."
1 Are you familiar with this?
2 A. No, but I believe that's how it was.
3 Q. Item -- paragraph 6:
4 "Military court and the Prosecutor's Office from Zagreb with a
5 seat in Banja Luka are to take all measures of increased criminal
6 responsibility as per expedient proceedings against all perpetrators of
8 Did you know that there was a military court in Banja Luka?
9 A. No. This is the first time that I hear of it.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
12 this document into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
14 Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D111, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D111 is admitted into evidence.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Maksic, please tell us, and I believe you've also given this
19 evidence in an earlier trial, in the area of combat operations, who is
20 competent -- or under whose jurisdiction is it to prosecute crimes that
21 are committed in that area?
22 A. Well, that would be by the military court. Each corps has a
23 battalion of military police, and any member of the armed forces, member
24 of that unit, if they were to commit a criminal offence, they would be
25 arrested and handed over to the competent authorities, in other words,
1 the military court.
2 Q. Witness, please take a look at another document, 2D204. And I
3 will soon be completing my cross-examination.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] As I've already said, that's 2D204.
5 Could we please pull it up.
6 Q. Witness, please look at this document. That's an order issued by
7 the 9th Corps command, dated the 6th of December, 1991, and it is an
8 order to set up the Drnis command post, and it says to command of the
9 Krajina SAO staff: "It is ordered as follows: The command of Drnis
10 shall be established, and the commander will be
11 Lieutenant-Colonel Oreskovic Stevo," and then on.
12 And then under 2 it says: "A platoon of military police shall be
13 responsible for law and order as well as the TO platoon from Knin and one
14 TO -- one platoon -- Military Police Platoon from the TO Krajina."
15 Are you familiar with this document? Do you know that
16 Mr. Vukovic, as the corps commander, established in Drnis on the 6th of
17 December some authority -- authorities and determined --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat his question.
19 A. This is the first time that I see this order, but it is possible.
20 Prior to this, I was in Drnis on two occasions, and there were only three
21 families in that town. That town was absolutely deserted. There were
22 two Serbian families and one Croatian. The whole town was empty. And
23 probably in order to prevent looting of private homes and other buildings
24 this order was issued on the 6th of December to that end, and I have to
25 say that this is the first time that I see it, but it is authentic, and
1 it is correct.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I think one of your questions was not
3 caught by the interpreters. Your last question. Could you please repeat
4 the question.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just check what
6 question that was.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You said: "Are you familiar with this document? Do
8 you know that Mr. Vukovic as the corps commander established in Drnis on
9 the 6th of December some authority -- authorities, and determined --" and
10 there it stops. You're requested to repeat what then followed.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
12 Q. And determine who would be responsible for law and order, and to
13 that end he determined that it would be a platoon of the TO and a
14 Military Police Platoon, that they would be in charge of maintaining law
15 and order.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently the witness has understood your question.
17 It's just for the completeness of the transcript.
18 Could you wind up in the next two minutes, Mr. Bakrac.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have one document
20 left to show to the witness and another question that I wish to put to
21 the witness in private session, and it has to do with what we -- the
22 communication received from the Prosecution today.
23 Can we call up 2D203, please.
24 Q. Witness, you told us that you didn't know, and this is to remind
25 you. The 3rd of December, 1991, military prosecutor's office in Banja
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 2D203, Your Honours. Can we turn to
3 the next page.
4 JUDGE ORIE: B/C/S next page.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Witness, look at the top of the document. It says military
7 prosecutor's office. The date is the 3rd of December, 1991. The place
8 is Banja Luka. This is a report for the month of November intended for
9 the military prosecutor's office of the JNA.
10 Can we look at the second page. I would like to ask you if you
11 are aware of this, and can we establish that the military prosecutor's
12 office in Banja Luka was operational and that it had jurisdiction over
13 the Knin area as well. Can we look at page 2, please, and I wish to
14 directed your attention to the second-but-last paragraph.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please,
16 in the B/C/S.
17 Q. Dusan Raskovic, a reserve soldier from VP 9570 Knin has been
18 indicted. Are you familiar with the military post and are you aware of
20 A. Well, I do recall the military post, but I do not recall this
21 individual, Raskovic being indicted. From my position, this was a matter
22 of insignificance to me.
23 Q. Well, I'm not asking you about the specific individual. Of
24 course I don't expect you to know anything about it, but is it true that
25 Knin had the military post 9570?
1 A. I don't recall what the military post of Knin was.
2 Q. Thank you, then.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would I like to move
4 that this document be MFI'd, and can we move into private session for
5 another question?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the --
7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D112 MFI, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D112 is marked for identification.
9 We move into private session.
10 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, any need to re-examine the witness?
15 MR. FARR: Just a few minutes, Your Honour.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Farr:
17 Q. Mr. Maksic, today you were shown a clip from a video which is 65
18 ter 4657. I would now like to ask Mr. Laugel to show a still from that
19 video. This is time code 1 minute and 46 seconds, and it is now on
20 Sanction. It should appear on the screen in front of you.
21 Are you able to recognise the person whose picture is circled in
22 the image on the screen in front of you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. In today's transcript, and -- we're done with that
25 image, thank you.
1 Today's transcript, at page 22, you were asked by Mr. Bakrac:
2 "According to the rules of combat and based on what you just told
3 us, people who came from the Serbian Renewal Movement, Arkan's men, and
4 Giska's men had to be under the command and control of the 9th Corps."
5 Your answer was:
6 "They should have been, but they were not. They were in
7 co-ordinated action with the 9th Corps. They were not under -- they were
8 not subordinated to them. Let me explain what the difference between
9 subordinated and co-ordinated action is," and you didn't get a chance to
10 make that explanation. Could you please now explain to us the difference
11 between subordination and co-ordinated action.
12 A. Subordination implies the following: A unit is subordinated to a
13 commander, and he is the sole authority in command of that unit. A
14 co-ordinated action means the following: You can agree with another unit
15 that you would be attacking along this axis and the other unit would be
16 attacking along the other axis, but one unit is not subordinated to the
17 other. You agree on the boundaries of -- of the respective axes of
18 attack so that the person in command of the attack does not have the
19 power to command the commander who attacks along the other axis. Of
20 course, this is a matter of agreement between them, but in this case they
21 advance alongside each other toward that target.
22 Q. Now, you said that these people from those three organisations,
23 the Serbian Renewal Movement, Arkan's men, and Giska's men should have
24 been subordinated but they were not. Did you ever learn why they were
25 not subordinated?
1 A. Because there had not been established a single system of command
2 across the Krajina and because the rules and provisions in force at the
3 time were not complied with, and there was no way to address this or
4 counter this. And this is the first time I heard of a military court
5 having been stationed in Banja Luka, whereas it should have been placed
6 in Knin.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic.
8 MR. FARR: Thank you, Your Honours. No further questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The Bench has no questions for the witness.
10 Has the re-examination triggered any need to further examine the
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
13 MR. JORDASH: Beg your pardon, Your Honour. No thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Maksic, this then concludes your testimony. I
15 would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having
16 answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the
17 Bench. I wish you a safe return home again. You may follow the usher.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE ORIE: For the testimony of the next witness, we turn into
21 closed session.
22 [Closed session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
11 Page 7005 redacted. Closed session.
1 Chamber will then consider whether the matter you want to raise should be
2 addressed in the presence of the witness or in the absence of the
4 If that's clear to you, then I think the first witness to be
5 brought into the courtroom is Witness JF-095. Is that correct,
6 Mr. Groome?
7 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And who will --
9 MR. GROOME: I will conduct the examination, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness JF-095 be ...
11 Mr. Cvetkovic, just to verify, the oral decision issued by the
12 Chamber has been communicated to you, I take it, so you're aware of the
13 details of what the Chamber decided and that we'll further consider
14 whether everything should remain in closed session or whether at a later
15 stage we would decide otherwise. That's clear. I see you're nodding
16 yes. That doesn't appear on the transcript, but ...
17 [The witness entered court]
18 WITNESS: JF-095
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE ORIE: There is a slight chance that all of the protective
21 measures will function already.
22 Good evening, Witness JF-095. Before you give evidence, I would
23 like to invite you to make the solemn declaration, of which the text is
24 now handed out to you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
3 Witness JF-095, you'll first be examined by Mr. Groome.
4 Mr. Groome is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll see him standing
5 soon to your right.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
7 Examination by Mr. Groome:
20 Q. On the 2nd of September, 2010, the Chamber in a response to a
21 request from your government that your testimony be given in closed
22 session established a procedure by which we will proceed in closed
23 session. The Trial Chamber, after review and upon hearing the position
24 of your government, will make a determination regarding what, if any
25 portions of your testimony should be published. In the event that the
1 Trial Chamber makes public some portions of your evidence, it has ordered
2 that your identity be protected by referring to you by the pseudonym
3 JF-095 and by digitally distorting your image and voice on the video of
4 these proceedings. Do you understand this?
5 A. Yes, I understand.
18 Q. Can you describe for us the relationship between the former State
19 Security Service and the current institution known as BIA.
20 A. The State Security Service of the Republic of Serbia existed in
21 formal and legal terms, unless I am mistaken, up until 1991 or 1992.
22 Thereafter, the state security department was set up within the Ministry
23 of the Interior, which existed until the 27th of July, 2002. In July of
24 2002, the government of the Republic of Serbia -- or, rather, the
25 National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia carried a law concerning the
1 security and information agency whereby the agency was set up as a
2 separate legal entity of a separate governmental agency. This was the
3 first time that it was taken out of the competence of the Ministry of the
5 One of the articles of the above-mentioned law, namely
6 Article 27, specifies that the security and information agency would take
7 over the archives, the cases, resources, equipment, and some of the
8 personnel of what was hitherto the RDB. Nowhere does it explicitly state
9 in the law that the security and information agency is a legal successor
10 to the RDB.
11 Q. Now --
12 A. Which --
13 Q. I'm sorry. Please. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
14 A. Which de facto it is not. In view of the fact that some of the
15 employees of the RDB, who in 2002 had not been taken over by the agency
16 continued in their jobs within the Ministry of the Interior in accordance
17 with their professional qualifications. However, in actual fact the
18 security and information agency is a service for the protection of the
19 internal security of the Republic of Serbia, which in fact the RDB, the
20 state security department, was.
21 Q. What's the name of the current director or head of the BIA?
22 A. The current director of the security and information agency is
23 Sasa Vukadinovic.
24 Q. Now, Mr. JF-95, the Prosecution over the years has made a number
25 of requests to the Serb government, and these have been made to the
1 National Council on Co-operation, are requests which pertain to material
2 that might be in the possession of your institution forwarded to BIA?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can I ask you to describe for the Chamber in general and very
5 brief terms how you go about responding to requests that you receive from
6 the Office of the Prosecutor.
7 A. The security and information agency does not receive the requests
8 from the OTP, i.e., from the ICTY directly. The agency is just one of
9 the state organs of the Republic of Serbia which actually acts upon
10 requests that are received after they have been submitted to -- submitted
11 to them by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Serbia, or
12 in some cases by the government office of the National Council for
13 Co-operation with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former
14 Yugoslavia at The Hague.
15 Once such a request has been received in the security and
16 information agency, the covering letter of the ministry forwarding it or
17 the office which forwards it, the security information agency is
18 requested to urgently respond to the request. When a request for
19 submitting material or access to documentation is in question, to check
20 in its archives whether indeed it does have such a document in them and
21 then to submit that document to the ministry or to the office with the
22 remark whether, in respect of the specific document, it proposes some
23 specific conditions to be observed in their use in criminal proceedings
24 before the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.
25 Q. Mr. JF-095, the record records you as saying "submit that
1 document to the ministry or to the office." Can I ask you to tell us
2 when you say "office," what precisely are you referring to?
3 A. Yes. I have previously said that. When -- the office is the
4 office of the government of Serbia -- of the Republic of Serbia; namely,
5 the office of the Council for Co-operation with International Criminal
6 Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, at the head of which is
7 Minister Rasim Lajic.
8 Q. Now, have investigators or any other staff of the Office of the
9 Prosecutor of the ICTY ever been permitted direct access to the archival
10 material in the possession of BIA?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Sorry, if I can -- I meant to ask you: Have the personnel of the
13 Office of the Prosecutor ever been allowed to enter the actual archives
14 of the BIA?
15 A. In respect of the original archival depots of the BIA, no staff
16 or no investigator of the ICTY -- or, rather, of the OTP, from November
17 2006 up to this date has entered.
18 Q. Now, in some -- in some cases when a request is made, does the
19 resolution or satisfaction of the request involve direct face-to-face
20 meetings between members of OTP staff and members of BIA staff?
21 A. Yes, it does. In the period to date, there have been a number of
22 direct meetings, but exclusively with the mediation of the Ministry of
23 Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Serbia or of the office of the Council
24 for Co-operation, and not only have there been direct meetings, but on a
25 number of occasions pursuant to a very precisely defined request for
1 access to specific documentation and in keeping with the agreement signed
2 earlier between the Republic of Serbia and the ICTY on the modalities of
3 this co-operation, representatives of the OTP have been enabled to view
4 in a room, which is not actually the original archival depot of the BIA,
5 to directly inspect, that is, a specific stock of documents which was --
6 which were precisely defined before that -- or, rather, approved before
7 that, defined before that in keeping with the actual case, the actual
8 event, the actual persons involved, or the actual time-frame concerned.
16 Q. Did there come a time when after repeated efforts on your part to
17 find certain documents and repeated discussions with members of the OTP
18 you were unable to find all of the documents requested by the OTP?
19 A. Yes, indeed. There have been a number of occasions. There have
20 been a number of instances when specific documents that the OTP expressed
21 an interest in in their request were unable to be found, but in an
22 enormous number of cases, on the other hand -- actually, it was not at
23 all certain that any such documents had ever existed. However, in
24 respect of a rather small number of documents, a very small number of
25 documents regarding which on the basis of the documentation enclosed by
1 the OTP it was certain that they had most probably existed, we were
2 unable to locate a small number of such documents in the archives of the
4 Q. Now, as a consequence of this small number of documents that were
5 unable to be located, were you aware that the OTP made a request to your
6 government in 2008 that it investigate the circumstances surrounding its
7 inability to find certain documents within its archives?
8 A. Yes. I am aware of the fact that the OTP's request for
9 assistance, if I'm not mistaken, 1691 from November 2008, actually
10 requested the government of the Republic of Serbia to set up an
11 interdepartmental commission consisting of representatives of the
12 Ministry of the Interior and representatives of the security and
13 information agency who would be charged with attempting to locate the
14 documents, which according to the allegations of the OTP were lacking,
15 were missing. Namely, if it failed to locate them, to clarify the
16 circumstances surrounding their fate as well as --
17 Q. I'm sorry, are you finished?
18 A. As well as to designate, to appoint a representative of the
19 commission who would, on behalf of the commission, maintain liaison with
20 the OTP, i.e., with the ICTY, and present to it the results of the
21 commission's work.
22 Q. Now, the commission report which the Prosecution will tender into
23 evidence contains a summary of the legal basis and the procedural history
24 of this commission, so I will not ask you to repeat that for us now. Can
25 I ask you to describe in general terms the activities undertaken by the
1 commission. I will ask you about specific tasks later, but can you just
2 outline in general terms how the commission approached its task.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If Witness JF-095, if you can do that in one minute
4 we'll hear it now. If it takes you more time, I'd rather you to answer
5 this question tomorrow, because it's close to 7.00. One minute, would
6 that do, or would you neat more time?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, one minute is sufficient.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then please answer the question before we adjourn.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Basically, the commission worked
10 on two levels. First of all, a search in the archives of the BIA, of the
11 Ministry of the Interior, and conducting talks with persons that the
12 commission assumed could provide relevant information in this respect.
13 Or interviews.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If that's your answer, that was well within a
15 minute. Thank you for that.
16 Before we adjourn, I'd like to inform you and the representatives
17 of the Republic of Serbia as well that there is a pending request to
18 delay cross-examination. The Chamber has not yet decided on that
19 request. We'll do that after we have heard the testimony given during
20 examination-in-chief, and we'll do that both for this witness and for the
21 next witness to appear. We'll hear the testimony of these witnesses
22 consecutively before cross-examination starts.
23 Now, therefore, it's also a bit uncertain when would -- we would
24 like to have you present to answer any questions put to you in
25 cross-examination. It will certainly not be this week. Thursday is a UN
1 holiday, so the Tribunal is closed. For many reasons we'll not sit on
2 Friday. So after we have decided the matter, we'll tell you whether
3 cross-examination will be conducted in the beginning, that is, Monday
4 and/or Tuesday and/or Wednesday next week or whether it will be at a
5 later date, and I would very much like you to inform the Chamber tomorrow
6 about your are availability during the first three days next week, and if
7 the delay would go beyond that or far beyond that, of course, then we'll
8 have to further contact you about your availability.
9 We'll continue tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in this same
10 courtroom, and I would like to instruct you not to speak with anyone
11 about your testimony, whether that's testimony already given or still to
12 be given tomorrow. That would include the calling party, Prosecution,
13 any Defence counsel, but also the representatives of the Serbian
14 government. You should not communicate, not speak, not -- no telephone
15 calls, no communication in writing, no communication at all in respect of
16 your testimony.
17 We adjourn, and we resume tomorrow, the 8th of September, quarter
18 past 2.00 in this same courtroom, III, but I first ask you to follow the
19 usher, because a decision to adjourn is usually made in open session, but
20 I give you an opportunity to already leave the courtroom.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ORIE: I already would ask you, Witness JF-095, to follow
23 the usher.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's be very practical as far as the curtains are
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 We adjourn until tomorrow, Wednesday, the 8th of September,
7 quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, Courtroom III, and I already announce
8 that further evidence tomorrow will be heard in closed session.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day
11 of September, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.