Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11881

 1                           Friday, 24 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 1.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.  All kind of technical

 6     difficulties caused the delay in our start.  We'll today hear the case

 7     until 6.00, so therefore, the time difference is one hour.

 8             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

10     IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             I was informed that the parties had decided to invite the witness

13     to reappear.

14             Mr. Groome, perhaps we go right into closed session unless

15     there's anything to be dealt with in open session.

16             MR. JORDASH:  No, Your Honour, except that my microphone --

17     sorry, my headphones are not working.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Your headphones are not working.  Let's try to

19     get --

20             MR. JORDASH:  It's not the headphones, it's the connection.  I've

21     tried two now, so --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it that we'll find a solution for that.

23             We turn into closed session.

24     [Closed session]    [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Once the curtains are down, could the


Page 11882

 1     Witness DST-051 be escorted into the courtroom.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in closed session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 4             Is there any arrangement as to how to proceed with

 5     Witness DST-051?  Mr. Groome.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I just wanted to make sure that what

 7     Your Honour said at the beginning didn't entirely reflect the

 8     Prosecution's position.  I have had no part in the decision to call the

 9     witness.  Yesterday, I said to Mr. Jordash that if he sought to re-open

10     the direct examination for the limited purpose of the authenticity of

11     these documents, I would not oppose it.  At 9.30, there was decision made

12     by the Stanisic Defence to recall him.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that Mr. Jordash will examine the

14     witness.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17                           THE WITNESS:  DST-051 [Recalled]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Witness DST-051.  First of all,

20     thank you very much for coming back to this courtroom.  I hope that we'll

21     not take too much of your time, but in relation to the documents being

22     given to you yesterday, Mr. Jordash would have some additional questions

23     for you.

24             I would like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn

25     declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that is,


Page 11883

 1     that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2             Mr. Jordash.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4                            Further examination by Mr. Jordash:

 5        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness DST-051.  You were given a bundle of

 6     documents yesterday, late afternoon.  Did you have an opportunity to read

 7     them between then and now?

 8        A.   I did.

 9        Q.   Did you recognise any of the documents?  Had you seen any of them

10     before?

11        A.   I saw all of these documents yesterday for the first time.  I

12     recognise most of them by format, starting with the decision of the

13     republican minister of the interior, Radmilo Bogdanovic, onwards.  This

14     decision was on the appointment of the commission appointing the specific

15     commission members headed by Mr. Lekovic.  I recognise the stamp of the

16     MUP and the signature of minister Radmilo Bogdanovic.  That's as far as

17     the first document goes.

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I believe all of the documents are

19     uploaded.  Would it be possible to call them up on the screen so we can

20     when the witness talks about different items?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, I apologise.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently, you asked the witness a very limited

24     question, but you let him go.  It's fine with me, but ...

25             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just --


Page 11884

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The first document would be?

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 11885

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 11885-11918 redacted. Closed session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 


Page 11919

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9                           THE WITNESS:  DST-032

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Witness DST-032, because that's how

12     we are going to call you.  Before you give evidence in this court, the

13     Rules of Procedure require that you make a declaration that you speak the

14     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  The text is now

15     handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

16             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

19             Witness DST-032, first of all, I think that you have been waiting

20     yesterday for quite a while, but we did not manage to finish the

21     testimony of a previous witness, so therefore, we feel sorry for that.

22             Before we come to your actual testimony, we first have to decide

23     on protective measures you have asked for.  Now, I want to briefly

24     explain to you what the situation is.  There is a request by the

25     government of Serbia for your testimony to be in closed session.  That is


Page 11920

 1     for reasons as explained by the Serbian government.  Apart from that, you

 2     have also requested for protective measures to be applied.  That's not

 3     because of the interests of the -- of Serbia, but it's because you have

 4     expressed your personal concerns as expressed in a motion for protective

 5     measures in paragraph 14, and the parties may have some additional

 6     questions about these personal concerns.

 7             Now, before we hear your answers to those questions, I would

 8     already like to explain to you the following:  This Chamber has decided

 9     that provisionally, I emphasise provisionally, we will hear your

10     testimony in closed session.  Why?  Because we're seeking further

11     information from Serbia before we finally will decide on whether we will

12     allow your testimony to be heard in closed session.  About your -- so

13     therefore, whatever happens later, at this moment we'll hear your

14     testimony in closed session.

15             Now, if we would grant the request from Serbia, then your

16     testimony would remain in closed session.  If, however, for whatever

17     reason we would consider that the reasons by Serbia are not strong enough

18     to justify closed session, then we would still have to consider your

19     personal request for protective measures.  For that purpose, either we

20     could then grant your request, but there are also other possibilities

21     such as not showing your face, not broadcasting your voice, as

22     alternatives to a full closed session, which would mean that the public

23     wouldn't see you, wouldn't hear your own voice, but the public would be

24     able to hear the content of your testimony.  And perhaps not all of it.

25     Perhaps some portions could be -- could be broadcasted to the public.


Page 11921

 1     Other portions, perhaps not.  We would have to decide that on a very --

 2     after having heard all the submissions and also looking at the evidence

 3     you give.  For example, if you would give answers which would identify

 4     yourself, then, of course, it don't make sense not to show your face, not

 5     to broadcast your voice, and to use a pseudonym, as we are doing now,

 6     "DST-032," because on the basis of the testimony itself, the public could

 7     identify you.  So under those circumstances, we'd certainly make a

 8     selection on what would be public and what would not be public in order

 9     to make effective any other protective measures we might grant.

10             Is this clear to you, that final decisions have not yet been

11     made.  For the time being, you'll testify in closed session.  If the

12     government's request is granted, that remains the same.  If the

13     government's request would not be granted, then we'll further consider

14     whether we could achieve the same effect, that is, protecting your

15     identity and considering the concerns you have expressed by other means

16     than to make it fully closed session.

17             Is that clear to you?

18             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  I understand.  It

19     is clear.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the parties may have a few more questions for

21     you.

22             Ms. Marcus.

23             Ms. Marcus is counsel for the Prosecution and will ask you

24     questions.  These questions, I'll note, although not really being part of

25     your testimony, are also covered by the solemn declaration you've just


Page 11922

 1     made that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

 2     truth.

 3             Ms. Marcus.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                      Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus on Protective Measures:

 6        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.  We only have received a few lines

 7     concerning your personal concerns for your security.  The Stanisic

 8     Defence informed the Chamber that you fear for your well-being and that

 9     of your family if it should become known that you have testified on

10     behalf of Mr. Stanisic.  The paragraph in the Stanisic submission states

11     that you were "accused of committing a crime regarding the unauthorised

12     destruction of documents."

13             Now, in order for us to understand how these allegations give you

14     concerns for your security, could you clarify for us were these charges

15     or threats?  In other words, what is the connection between these

16     allegations and the fears for your security?

17        A.   Your Honours, I would only ask for the volume of the

18     interpretation to be raised, because I cannot hear it so well.  I

19     understood what the Prosecutor asked me, but, still, could the volume be

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 11923

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 11923-11930 redacted. Closed session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 11931

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness DST-032, the Chamber has considered your

19     request, and I'd like to explain the situation to you.

20             As I told you before, we still have to decide on a request by

21     Serbia to what are your testimony in closed session completely.  If we

22     would grant that request, then of course we don't have to further

23     consider your personal concerns.  If we would not grant that request and

24     we still have to hear further submissions on that request, then we would

25     be in a position where we would have to decide on your request, your


Page 11932

 1     personal concerns.  Then we have several options, either to grant the

 2     request to hear your testimony -- to keep it all in closed session, or to

 3     apply lesser measures, that is face distortion, voice distortion, and

 4     pseudonym, or to deny your request completely.

 5             Since we'll hear your testimony anyhow provisionally in closed

 6     session, we will then be able to include in our considerations the

 7     content of your testimony.

 8             The reasons you've given are, I would say, relatively weak for

 9     granting your personal request.  Therefore, if we grant the request of

10     Serbia, there is no problem for you because then it would be closed

11     session.  If we do not grant the request from Serbia, I cannot say now

12     that we will wholly or in part grant your request for protective

13     measures.

14             I'd like to explain to you why we are -- what is the interest

15     which might contradict your request, that is, that criminal proceedings

16     should be public to the extent possible.  So therefore, we have to

17     balance your personal interest against the interests of the public to be

18     able to follow these proceedings.

19             That is the situation at this moment.  Is that clear to you?

20             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] It is.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then -- then we will proceed on this basis unless

22     any of the parties would like me to say more about it.  Apparently not.

23             Then we'll now start with your testimony.  You'll first be

24     examined by Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

25             Mr. Jordash, please proceed.


Page 11933

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 11933-11956 redacted. Closed session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 


Page 11957

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22     has no objections.  Earlier today Mr. Jordash informed us that with

23     respect to P179 and P473, that the Stanisic Defence now agrees that the

24     signature on those documents is the signature of Jovica Stanisic.  The

25     Chamber will recall both of these were the subject of submissions,


Page 11958

 1     written submissions, made on the 5th of March, 2010, the 18th of May,

 2     2010, and the 1st of April, 2010.  Thank you.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the documents you just mentioned, had numbers

 5     already been assigned to them, Mr. Groome?

 6             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Not.  Then I'd rather not let the witness wait any

 8     further, but Madam Registrar if you would already prepare to assign

 9     numbers for those documents.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  1D1407 will have number D245, and 1D1083 would

11     have number D255, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you have dealt with two numbers, whereas

13     three were mentioned by Mr. Groome.  Is that --

14             MR. GROOME:  The other one was 1D1387.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was the first one you have mentioned.

16     Madam Registrar, that would receive?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That would receive number D256, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  D256 and D255 are admitted into evidence.  Any

19     need to have them under seal?

20             MR. GROOME:  I'm guided by Mr. --

21             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Both under seal.

23             MR. GROOME:  One is a press release.  Is it really necessary for

24     that to be under seal?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash will further consider that.  24 -- D245


Page 11959

 1     is marked for identification pending further information by Mr. Jordash

 2     on authenticity.

 3             Mr. Bakrac, you remained seated, therefore I thought -- but now

 4     you're on your feet.  Is there anything you'd like to add?

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to

 6     clarify whether it is 1D-- 1D --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat the numbers more

 8     slowly, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that you find a way out court to see

10     whether the transcript is accurate or not and if there's any problem,

11     please raise the matter at a later stage.

12             Witness DST-032, we have given you our decision, so we are now at

13     a point it start your testimony provisionally in closed session.  Before

14     we start, in order to avoid any uncomfortable situations, if Mr. Jordash

15     starts asking questions to you now, what could the Chamber expect?  Are

16     you going to answer those questions?

17             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] If I have to, I will answer them.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I think as matters stand now, you are under an

19     obligation to answer those questions.  Nevertheless, I already inform

20     you, and I take that the parties would agree with this, that even if we

21     start today that the communications which might make matters more easy

22     would take place anyhow.

23             MR. GROOME:  I'm happy to do that.  Would the Chamber authorise

24     me to, what's in closed session now, its views on this matter to make

25     them known to Mr. Ignjatovic?


Page 11960

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Approval is given for that, and I take it that

 4     you'll keep Mr. Jordash informed about any developments on the matter.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will briefly start with your examination.

 7     There are only ten minutes left, because I have to read another matter as

 8     well.

 9             Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.

10                           Examination by Mr. Jordash:

11             MR. JORDASH:  I note from page 77, line 2, that the witness's

12     answer wasn't fully recorded.  I think it was translated --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that what the witness said, if I'm under an

14     obligation to answer the questions, I'll do so.  That's what I understood

15     him to say, and then I said that he was under an obligation under the

16     Rules.  I didn't add that, but I add this now for the parties.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 11961

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 11961-11962 redacted. Closed session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 


Page 11963

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, how much time would that take?

 6             MR. JORDASH:  It's the chart with five exhibits.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'd rather -- I have to read a statement of

 8     the Chamber first, so therefore I would rather stop for the -- finish for

 9     the day as far as the examination of the witness is concerned.

10             Are you tendering what you've put to the witness until now?

11             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.  May I tender them pursuant to 92 ter.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar -- yes, Mr. Bakrac.

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may have a minute in

14     order to shorten my cross-examination.  With Mr. Groome's and

15     Mr. Jordash's permission, there is a document I wanted to show to the

16     witness which contains eight pages and it might be useful if the witness

17     acquainted himself with it over the weekend so that on Tuesday we could

18     start discussing it more efficiently.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Does Mr. Groome know what document you're

20     talking about?  Let's say the following, if the parties out of court

21     agree that a document can be shown to the witness, through the

22     intermediary of VWS to the extent they are able to do that, they can pass

23     it on to the witness.  We're not going to further now compare what is it,

24     et cetera, find your time and try to achieve the consent of the other

25     parties.  The Chamber would not disagree if it would be handed to the


Page 11964

 1     witness.

 2             Witness DST-032, you might receive a document of a number of

 3     pages.  If you receive that, then you're invited to carefully read it so

 4     that questions may be asked about it when you return.  Because we adjourn

 5     for the day, and we would like to see you back on Tuesday, the 28th of

 6     June, at a quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in another courtroom,

 7     Courtroom II.

 8             Meanwhile, you should not speak with anyone about your testimony

 9     whether already given or still to be given, and that would also include

10     representatives of the state of which you are a citizen.  You should not

11     speak or communicate in any way about your testimony.  It may be of some

12     relief to you that in your absence it has been discussed how the parties

13     could perhaps meet some of the concerns you expressed in communications

14     with Serbia, which might ease the situation a bit, because we are -- of

15     course we are understanding that you do not just feel comfortable in

16     every respect at this moment.

17             You may follow the usher, and we'd like to see you back on

18     Tuesday.

19             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I would briefly deliver a statement on behalf of the

22     Chamber.  It is the Chamber's statement with regard to an amended sitting

23     schedule for the month of July 2011.

24             During the pre-Defence conference on the 14th of June, 2011, the

25     Chamber announced its intention to sit four days instead of three during


Page 11965

 1     the first and third week of July.  It heard submissions from both Defence

 2     teams and from Mr. Stanisic.

 3             The Simatovic Defence asked that any proposal for additional

 4     sitting days be implemented after the summer recess, and I am reminded

 5     that -- from two sides that I should not deal with this in closed

 6     session.

 7             We move into open session.

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Looking at the

11     multitude of people on the public gallery, I just continue.

12             I started saying that I deliver a statement of the Chamber on the

13     sitting schedule in July 2001, that we heard submissions on the matter,

14     that the Simatovic Defence asked that any proposal for additional sitting

15     days be implemented after the summer recess so that the Defence could use

16     the time out of court to prepare its Defence case.

17             The Stanisic Defence, requesting no relief, expressed concern

18     regarding Mr. Stanisic's health should the Chamber decide to move from

19     three to four sitting days on a regular basis.

20             Mr. Stanisic indicated that the Chamber might not have been

21     provided with all the relevant medical information, in particular

22     regarding possible changes in treatment through the latest weekly report.

23     Following the Pre-Defence Conference, the Registry informally indicated

24     to the Chamber that it would consider Mr. Stanisic's submissions in the

25     next weekly medical report.


Page 11966

 1             On the 22nd of June, 2011, the reporting medical officer, in his

 2     weekly medical report, provided further details as to possible changes in

 3     Mr. Stanisic's treatment.  Although the reporting medical officer noted

 4     some changes in the health situation of Mr. Stanisic, it appears to be

 5     stable.

 6             The Chamber will continue to carefully monitor Mr. Stanisic's

 7     health through the weekly medical reports and through the expert reports

 8     submitted every 12 weeks.

 9             The Chamber's proposal on scheduling in July is limited to two

10     additional court days over a period of six weeks in court sessions in the

11     Stanisic Defence case, which is planned for June and July.  This will

12     then be followed by three weeks of summer recess with no court sessions.

13     Considering this, the Chamber has decided to schedule extra court

14     sessions in the afternoon of the 4th of July, 2011, and in the afternoon

15     of the 18th of July.

16             The Chamber instructs the Stanisic Defence to plan its witnesses

17     accordingly and the Registry to make the necessary arrangements.  During

18     or after the summer recess, the Chamber will further consider the

19     long-term sitting schedule in this case.

20             And this concludes the Chamber's statement.

21             We will adjourn for the day, and we resume on Tuesday, the 28th

22     of June, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, Courtroom II.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.04 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of June,

25                           2011, at 2.15 p.m.