1 Tuesday, 12 July 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Jordash, the Chamber was informed that you would like to
11 raise a matter. I don't know whether it should be done in private
12 session or in open session.
13 MR. JORDASH: Open session is okay, I think, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
15 MR. JORDASH: It's a very straightforward issue. It's a request
16 for a more detailed medical note from Dr. Eekhof. And the reason for the
17 request is that I've observed, at least, that the court schedule is
18 challenging for Mr. Stanisic and he certainly is exhausted after hearings
19 and exhausted during the days that we do not sit. Now, I don't know if
20 that's medically significant or not and I make to pretense that I can
21 assess that, and I equally do not suggest that Mr. Stanisic is saying at
22 this stage that he cannot cope, but certainly he has noticed the effects
23 of the court schedule. And for the -- out of abundance of caution, I
24 would respectfully request that Dr. Eekhof at least address whether the
25 tiredness, whether the fatigue, whether the increase in difficult
1 symptoms is medically significant or not.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, it's -- we'll pay attention to it. We'll
3 think about it and we'll see what -- how to phrase the additional
4 questions for Dr. Eekhof if we would decide that we would put additional
5 questions to him.
6 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, what you told us -- of course, if we
8 read the regular reports, you see that sometimes there are small
9 fluctuations. Although they're relatively steady, it's not always the
10 same. I noticed that you approach the matter in a rather broad way and
11 not saying especially his left leg causes him more concerns the last week
12 or, I mean, so we'll deal with the matter in the way you approached it
13 and that's what we'll orient ourselves upon.
14 MR. JORDASH: Could I perhaps add this: that Mr. Stanisic takes
15 pain relief, and what I've mainly observed is that he's taking more of
16 that pain relief.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's a very concrete matter which we could include
18 if we put any additional questions to Dr. Eekhof. Yes.
19 Any other specific matter? Apart from feeling exhausted,
20 apparently it's your suggestion that there may be a medically significant
21 extra burden upon him at this moment which exhausts him. That's -- the
22 pain relief, of course, is a very concrete aspect. Is there any other
23 such concrete element which you could mention so that we don't forget to
24 specifically address that?
25 MR. JORDASH: I think it's the pain relief which is significant
1 because, as you know, Mr. Stanisic has a number of complaints and
2 sometimes the pain emanates from one and not the other and the next day
3 it's changed. What we would find useful is a comment on why there has
4 been or if there has been an increase, and, two, whether in fact that
5 pain relief affects Mr. Stanisic's ability to concentrate, because some
6 of that pain relief from a layperson's point of view is medication which
7 one wouldn't want to take on too regular a basis. And I particularly
8 refer to morphine which Mr. Stanisic takes on occasion. I think that's
9 when the pain is particularly significant. And as I say, from a
10 layperson's point of view, morphine sounds relatively serious, and
11 relatively serious in the sense of being able to focus and concentrate on
12 complex court proceedings.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you say apart from pain relief it may have side
15 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I just asked you to be as concrete as
17 possible so that we would not overlook any matter when considering your
18 request. Thank you for that.
19 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MS. MARCUS: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Just to request that
22 we would have an opportunity to propose some questions as well that we
23 also have for the doctor, with the Chamber's leave of course. We could
24 do that in whatever format Your Honour sees fit. We can do it by e-mail
25 informally, in any way.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will consider in which format, if any
2 questions are put to Dr. Eekhof, and what format that would be done and
3 whether we would consult the parties. Of course we've heard from
4 Mr. Jordash what his concerns are and why he would like to ask a more
5 thorough report on Dr. Eekhof. If you have similar suggestions or
6 questions, then I think the earlier it comes to the Chamber ...
7 I can even imagine that you put one or two or three things on
8 paper, send an e-mail, copy the Chamber on it so that Mr. Jordash is
9 informed, and we would then -- we would be able to consider whether to
10 include it, yes or no.
11 MS. MARCUS: We will do that, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then a few other matters, not too much.
13 Mr. Jordash, I think that you still owe us further information in
14 relation to D56. That's what you promised more or less, I think,
16 MR. JORDASH: I do. And if Your Honours would just indulge us a
17 little until the break and then I will obtain what information there is.
18 I do apologise.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll wait for that.
20 Then finally the other matter is, Mr. Jordash, the Stanisic
21 Defence was granted leave on the 4th of July to reply to the
22 Prosecution's response to the Defence motion for admission of 92 ter
23 material for Witness DST-035. I think that we have not seen anything, is
25 MR. JORDASH: I think that's absolutely right, and I apologise
1 for that also. And we can put together a reply by tomorrow because it
2 goes to, in substance, what was in the application to reply.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you would be out of the time-limit,
4 wouldn't you, I mean, to do it tomorrow? Rule 126 bis: Unless otherwise
5 ordered, a motion filed by a party shall be filed within 14 days -- a
6 response be filed within 14 days. A reply to the response, if any, shall
7 be filed within seven days of the filing of the response, with the leave
8 of the relevant Chamber. So the time-limit is set in general terms
9 there. Leave has been granted on the 4th of July, and let's not argue
10 about whether we should start counting from the 4th or whether we should
11 start counting from the 29th of June when the response was filed. In
12 both cases we are beyond the seven days.
13 MR. JORDASH: Well, I can only apologise, it was an
14 administrative oversight, and request that Your Honours ...
15 JUDGE ORIE: So perhaps if you want to file something tomorrow,
16 then perhaps it would be good to address also the late filing and that
17 you perhaps ask - I'm not in any way anticipating on what a decision
18 would be - but to -- I even add to that, if you want to have a longer
19 time-limit, that usually you should ask that within the time available to
20 respond and not to do it afterwards. But I leave it in your hands. But
21 just to bring to your attention that there may well be a problem and
22 we'll see what you do with it and then you'll see what we are going to do
23 with it. Yes?
24 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: These were the matters I wanted to draw the
1 attention of the parties to.
2 Next witness, Mr. Jordash, without protective measures?
3 MR. JORDASH: Without protective measures, Mr. Bosnic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be escorted into the
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Bosnic. Can you hear me in a
8 language you understand?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Yes,
10 I can.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and
12 Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration of which the text
13 will now be handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: MILE BOSNIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Bosnic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bosnic, I think it should be made a tiny little
22 bit shorter, perhaps.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's all right.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bosnic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Jordash.
25 Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
1 Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.
2 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Examination by Mr. Jordash:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bosnic.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Could you state your full name and date of birth for the record,
8 A. Mile Bosnic, son of Milivoj, born on the 30th of October, 1958,
9 in Virovitica, Republic of Croatia.
10 Q. And your ethnic origin is?
11 A. Serb.
12 MR. JORDASH: Now could we have on the screen, please, 1D4902.
13 Q. What's going to come up on the screen in front of you,
14 Mr. Bosnic, is a statement. Would you have a look at the front of the
15 statement, and do you recognise the signature?
16 A. Yes, it's mine.
17 Q. Were you interviewed on the 21st of September, 2006; 17th and
18 20th of May, 2011; 1st of June, 2011?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If we just go to the next page of the statement, just to ensure
21 that you recognise this. Do you recall giving this statement to the
22 Stanisic Defence on the dates which we've just discussed?
23 A. Yes, and you can see my signature, my last name, with which I
24 initialled the pages.
25 Q. Thank you. Have you had an opportunity prior to attending court
1 today to carefully review this statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. JORDASH: Could we please have on the screen 1D4914. Sorry,
4 no, 1D4916.
5 Q. When you reviewed this statement which we've just seen on the
6 screen, did you make any amendments to that statement on the
7 8th of July, 2011?
8 A. The text is in English, so ...
9 Q. Let me just see if there is B/C/S, Mr. Bosnic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It apparently is not in e-court.
11 MR. JORDASH:
12 Q. Apparently there is no B/C/S so we'll have to go through them
13 orally. Do you recall making amendments to your statement on the
14 8th of July, Mr. Bosnic?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, is there a B/C/S version anywhere?
16 MR. JORDASH: No, apparently not.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently not.
18 MR. JORDASH: No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Have we checked whether the witness
20 reads any English?
21 MR. JORDASH: I'm fairly sure he doesn't, but I'll ask.
22 Q. Do you read any English, Mr. Bosnic?
23 A. Well, no, I can't. I don't understand English. I can skim
24 through the text. I do know that I supplemented the statement.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see whether we can find a -- you said you
1 supplemented the statement. Have you ever seen or was the result of your
2 amendments ever discussed with you?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I was present and
4 dictated these amendments myself.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I do not know to what extent every
6 single amendment is relevant now already for your examination-in-chief.
7 Is there any way that, for example, with someone -- you may have someone
8 available who could translate the amendments to him so that the witness
9 can report to us, for example, after the first break, that what was
10 translated to him is -- reflects the amendments he wished to make?
11 MR. JORDASH: That's -- I think we can --
12 JUDGE ORIE: But, of course, if there's any paragraph changed on
13 which you would like to specifically deal with certain matters, then of
14 course you would have to deal with those amendments immediately.
15 MR. JORDASH: Yes. I think we can proceed as Your Honour
16 suggests. And if there is a problem, then I'll deal with the amendment
17 orally, but I don't think there will be. And the amendments are not in
18 the main critical to his testimony.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And I'd like that to be done if possible during the
20 first break so that the Prosecution is not later suffering from any
21 challenge to the amendments that are put on paper.
22 MR. JORDASH:
23 Q. We'll return to this later on, Mr. Bosnic. Let's now turn to
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
1 MS. MARCUS: Yes, I'm sorry to interrupt. I was just waiting to
2 see what was going to be pulled up. With respect to the 92 ter
3 statement, the 92 ter filing included the draft English version, unsigned
4 and undated, if I'm not mistaken, with draft on top not reviewed by
5 witness and not signed. But the B/C/S version was signed in the motion.
6 So I just would like it to be clarified, and that's why I'm mentioning it
7 now, when we turn back to the amendments, whether the amendments were
8 made into the B/C/S version; so does the B/C/S version differ from the
9 English version or is the B/C/S signed version identical to the English
10 unsigned version? In other words, we'd like to know which version
11 incorporates the proofing note of 8th July and, et cetera, we'd like to
12 know which version is what. Thank you.
13 MR. JORDASH: Both the B/C/S statement and the English statement
14 are the same. The amendments which were made with reference to the B/C/S
15 statement were put into this chart, so the English and the B/C/S
16 statement are the same.
17 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
18 MR. JORDASH:
19 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Bosnic, being shown a number of exhibits or
20 documents and being asked to go through them and make your comments in a
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. JORDASH: If we can go to the bottom of the page of the
24 chart. A bit further, please, so we can see the initials.
25 Q. Do you recognise the initials?
1 A. Yes, they are mine.
2 Q. Okay. And do you recognise the chart and the documents discussed
3 or the documents listed on the left column and the comments on the right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you have a chance to review your comments before coming to
6 court today?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did you make any clarifications or corrections that you wish
9 to make?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the comments that you made, did they accord with the truth?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. JORDASH: May this chart be tendered as an exhibit,
14 Your Honours, please.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I suggest that the -- that the
16 92 ter statement will be MFI'd for the time being because it may still be
17 subject to amendments, and the same would be done for the proofing notes.
18 And, Ms. Marcus, any objection against admission of the chart,
19 the chart which gives the comments of the witness?
20 MS. MARCUS: No objections, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
22 Madam Registrar, first, the 92 ter statement would receive
23 number ...
24 THE REGISTRAR: Number D313, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D313 is marked for identification.
1 The proofing notes ...
2 THE REGISTRAR: D314, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- is marked for identification.
4 And then the chart containing comments of the witness on various
5 documents ...
6 THE REGISTRAR: D315, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D315 is admitted into evidence.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. JORDASH:
10 Q. Now, let me take you -- well, before I do that, what is your
11 current occupation?
12 A. I have a degree in political science.
13 Q. Now, let me take you to --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, a degree is as far -- is not an
15 occupation but is a title. What is the present occupation of the
16 witness; that question has not been answered.
17 Could you tell us what your occupation is at this moment. Do you
18 have a job, are you ...
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am unemployed at present. I was
20 supposed to attend an interview, a job interview, just before coming
22 JUDGE ORIE: What was your last job, could you tell us, when and
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 2001 I was employed in the
25 commodity reserves in Banja Luka, commodity reserves of Republika Srpska.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And you stayed in that job until ...
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Roughly a year. A year and ten
3 months. Or, my apologies, what I meant was a year and roughly ten days.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
5 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
6 Q. Briefly, where were you born and where did you grow up?
7 A. I was born in Virovitica and I grew up in Podravska Slatina,
8 where I completed my secondary education. It's a small town in the
9 Republic of Croatia.
10 Q. And in 1990 where did you live?
11 A. In Velika Kladusa, Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 Q. And as we can see from your statement you were politically active
13 during the -- before and during the war in Croatia; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, to assist the Trial Chamber, I want to ask you to look at a
16 map and indicate on the map the locations where you were politically
17 active so that the Trial Chamber can see where your evidence is going to
18 encompass or what your evidence is going to encompass.
19 MR. JORDASH: Could we have P258. And could Mr. Bosnic be given
20 a pen so that he can draw on the map.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very small.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It can be enlarged.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
24 MR. JORDASH: Can we go to page 2, perhaps that's the best way.
25 I think that might be a more appropriate map. Yes.
1 Q. Would you indicate, please -- perhaps I can give you some
2 guidance here. First, Slunj.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Velika Kladusa.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Petrinja.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Pakrac.
9 A. I was not in Pakrac in 1991 but later, but I can mark it
11 Q. Okay. Mark it then, please.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Plitvice, please. Plitvice.
14 A. We don't have Plitvice depicted here but there are between Slunj
15 and Korenica.
16 Q. Knin.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Vojnic.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Vrginmost.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Petrova Gora.
23 A. Petrova Gora is between Vojnic and Vrginmost; it's a mountain.
24 Q. Golubic.
25 A. It is somewhere on the way out of Knin in the direction of
1 Grahovo and the village of Strmica. I can't tell, really, but roughly
2 here. I can't give you the exact location. At any rate, it's on the way
3 out of Knin in the direction of Bosnia-Herzegovina, specifically Grahovo
4 and the village of Strmica.
5 Q. Glina.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Veljun.
8 A. It is on the territory of the municipality of Slunj. We don't
9 have it depicted. It's somewhere here.
10 Q. Plaski.
11 A. Plaski is between Slunj and Ogulin. Roughly here.
12 Q. And Bruska.
13 A. I don't know. Bruska is somewhere near Benkovac. I was there,
14 but I can't give you the exact location.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Bosnic, would you like to adjust your
16 headphones? It's a long afternoon to be holding your headphones.
17 A. I'm trying to. I'm doing my best, but I keep taking my glasses
18 off so I -- I'll be able to adjust them on occasion, no problem there,
19 but I do hear everything you say. If I don't, I'll let you know.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. JORDASH: May I tender this as an exhibit. I don't know if
22 it's assisted Your Honours at all, but I hope it --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think the most practical way would have been
24 to prepare such a map, to agree with the Prosecution where the places
25 are, and then to give it. That takes -- instead of six or seven minutes,
1 takes half a minute. And apart from that, of course, some of these
2 locations may be well known. But that might be different for various
3 judges. But it's typically a matter on which you could easily agree, I
4 think, where Slunj is and where Petrova Gora is. So that would have been
5 more practical, but ...
6 No objections?
7 MS. MARCUS: No objections, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the marked map would receive
9 number ...
10 THE REGISTRAR: Number D316, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D316 is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. JORDASH: Could we please have D313, your statement, on the
13 screen, please.
14 Q. Now, let's go to paragraph 2. This statement is now before the
15 Court, Mr. Bosnic, and I want to ask you to elaborate on some aspects of
16 it. Paragraph 2 is where you discuss becoming politically active from
17 the end of May 1990. You established a local SDS board in Kordun. Was
18 this the only local SDS board being formed at the time or was this part
19 of a process?
20 A. At the time, it was the only SDS board in Kordun.
21 Q. And other places within Croatia?
22 A. Yes, mainly in Lika and Northern Dalmatia.
23 Q. And what was the process by which the local SDS board was formed?
24 A. The Serbs in other areas except for Lika and Northern Dalmatia
25 voted for Racan's party, the Alliance of Communists of Croatia, the
1 Social Democratic Party, because that party accepted the constitutional
2 status of the Serb people and agreed to Croatia remaining in the federal
3 union. That's why most of the Serbs voted at the elections for
4 Ivica Racan's party, and it was, in fact, 21 Serbs who became MPs on his
5 ticket. However, subsequently when this party agreed to the policy
6 pushing for Croatia's independence, that was when SDS boards started
7 being set up across Croatia.
8 Q. And what was the political agenda of the SDS in May of 1990 and
9 subsequently when other municipalities began to arrange SDS boards?
10 A. The key issue of the SDS political agenda was that should Croatia
11 remain in Yugoslavia, we would agree to a certain degree of autonomy
12 within Croatia. However, if Croatia decides to withdraw from Yugoslavia,
13 we, as the second largest constituent people in Croatia, express our
14 desire to remain within Yugoslavia.
15 Q. At what stage or at what point in time did you first meet
16 Milan Babic?
17 A. I first met Milan Babic before a rally of the SDS held in a place
18 called Srb in July of 1990. That was when I met him in person. But I
19 apologise, I do have to mention the fact that we were together attending
20 a number of meetings as well.
21 Q. Before you met him in Srb in July of 1990?
22 A. Yes. I attended meetings that he too attended, but we didn't
23 have a direct contact.
24 Q. And in which capacity were you attending those meetings and in
25 which capacity was he?
1 A. I attended them as a member of the SDS Main Board. Every
2 representative of a newly-established local board became a member of the
3 Main Board, and Babic by that time was already a member of the
4 Main Board. I think he was in fact vice-president of the party or the
5 president of the Executive Board.
6 Q. So the Main Board of the SDS consisted of the leaders of the
7 local boards, and you just mention now that Babic was, you thought, may
8 be the vice-president of the party, you mean the SDS party?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the Executive Board was what?
11 A. The Executive Board was the executive body of the Main Board. It
12 operated in the field in networking various local boards and preparing
13 the material to be discussed by the Main Board. In other words, it was
14 an executive body of the Main Board.
15 Q. And by the time you met Babic in July of 1990, what was Babic's
16 position, can you remember?
17 A. He was the mayor. In other words, the president of the
18 municipality of Knin.
19 Q. And what position did he told in the SDS party?
20 A. He was one of the five leaders.
21 Q. And what position, if any, did he occupy in the Executive Board
22 of the Main Board?
23 A. I think he was president.
24 Q. And the other four leaders of the SDS party were whom?
25 A. The disputable leader at that moment was Professor Raskovic.
1 Then Zelenbaba, Jovo Opacic. I cannot recall the other names, but there
2 were 19 founders, some of whom were already mayors, were presidents of
4 Q. And during 1990, having met Babic in July of 1990, how many times
5 and in which circumstances were you meeting Mr. Babic?
6 A. There were many instances. The meetings of the Main Board were
7 held every seven or 15 days, depending on the development of the
8 situation in the field and depending on the actual needs.
9 Q. And did you have a role within the Main Board other than
10 attending as a leader of a local board?
11 A. I was just a member of the Main Board, but I was also in charge
12 for the area -- of the area from which I came within the Main Board.
13 Q. How many members were in the Main Board?
14 A. The number changed, but 150, roughly.
15 Q. And as a member of a local board attending the Main Board,
16 function did you play? What did you do when you attended? What happened
17 at the meetings?
18 A. We discussed further policy moves of the party. First of all,
19 what would be done, what would be the course of action where the SDS was
20 already in power, in those places; and secondly, what was to be
21 specifically done in order for the SDS to take over power in those
22 municipalities where it was not in power.
23 Q. Was there a voting process?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what was the nature of the voting process?
1 A. It would be a show of hands. And if a decision was adopted by
2 the majority, it would be a binding decision upon the leadership of the
3 SDS as well as upon the local authorities, i.e., the mayors, of course
4 depending on the nature of the specific decision.
5 Q. Was there any circumstances where there wasn't a need for a
6 majority, where one person or a group of people could outvote the
8 A. Yes, there were circumstances, and this did happen occasionally.
9 Q. Can you give an example, please.
10 A. For instance, when there was a difference of opinions as to
11 whether to go to the elections in Serbia or not, Professor Raskovic was
12 in favour of the SDS being part of the elections in Serbia, and
13 Professor Raskovic was outvoted. In fact, he, Zelenbaba, and Jovo Opacic
14 walked out of the decision at a certain point and this led to strife in
15 the party and the leaving of the party by the two last-mentioned
17 Q. But the question I asked was whether there were circumstances
18 where the majority could be outvoted or whether, in fact, it was --
19 issues were always decided by majority voting.
20 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
21 Q. To the best of your knowledge was there always majority voting or
23 A. If you mean whether mistakes could have been made in the counting
24 or if a problem could have arisen in connection with a counting, yes,
25 that was possible because the hands were counted.
1 Q. Mr. Bosnic, it's probably me, but let me just try once more.
2 When an issue went to the vote, how was it decided? Was it by majority
3 voting or were there other ways in which an issue could be decided?
4 A. I think that I already answered this. The proposition, the
5 proposal, which received a majority of votes would be adopted.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, what kind of issues through 1990 were being
7 decided by the Main Board?
8 A. There were numerous issues and there were many problems in
9 connection of the ways of protecting the Serbian population, in which way
10 to strengthen the SDS and to take over power, also in the areas of Kordun
11 and Banija, and to start building a political system in order to be able
12 to parry the moves of Croatia and to set up organs in a broader area, the
13 Lika and Northern Dalmatia area to begin with, and later also for
15 And we also discussed the question of village guards to protect
16 against any dangers coming from the Croatian regime and a lot of other
17 questions. I could go on at some length about those.
18 Q. That's fine for now. Could we return to your witness statement,
19 D313 and paragraph 4. Paragraph 4 you discuss there an attack on
20 Petrinja and the organisation of night guards. Did this -- in this
21 paragraph, you note "the SDS only established local night guards to
22 ensure nothing happened." What were local night guards? What did they
23 do and where were they at this point in time?
24 A. Local night guards consisted of the local villagers who stood
25 guards in their villages during the night in order to prevent any
1 attacks, Croatian attacks by their police units or by the National Guard.
2 These were local people, villagers, peasants who, while standing guard,
3 carried mainly their own weapons, mainly hunting weapons which were their
4 weapons, in their possession.
5 Q. "Mainly hunting weapons which were their weapons, in their
6 possession." Was there any other source of weapons at that point in
8 A. At that time, no. Later it became possible to buy weapons from
10 Q. At what point in time did it become possible to buy weapons from
12 A. We were already in October when incursions by special Croatian
13 units started and when newly set up police stations were established in
14 places where they had not been previously, which places were adjacent to
15 Serbian villages. It was not -- it did not happen at the same time
17 Q. Let's just break that down a bit. Do you know where local night
18 guards were approximately, how many of the villages, in October of 1990
19 and towards the end of 1990?
20 A. In all the villages in the Kordun area, and I went to see them.
21 As regards the other areas, I cannot say with certainty, but the
22 principle was the same.
23 Q. Was the setting up of the night guards in other areas, in all the
24 areas covered by the SDS local boards, discussed at the Main Board?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, this came in October of 1990. But as your statement says at
2 paragraph 9, barricades had already gone up in Knin on the 16th and
3 17th of August, 1990. Was that discussed at the SDS Main Board?
4 A. Yes, it was, but after the erection of the barricades, because
5 the events of the 16th, 17th, and the 18th were sudden. No one actually
6 had expected that Croatian special units would seek to disarm the local
7 police, the reserve force of the local police.
8 Q. And what form did the discussion take at the Main Board, this
9 event having happened? Was there discussion about organising for future
11 A. We were taken by surprise, very much so, and the key question is
12 what course of action to take.
13 Q. And what was decided?
14 A. The decision which was made was that we should try and find a
15 solution which would make it possible for our own police to efficiently
16 count the Croatian Special Police units and the National Guard units
17 because it was evident that the local village guards with the armaments
18 that they had just could not do it.
19 Q. Were decisions made by the Main Board? Practical decisions, I
21 A. Not at that moment. At that moment we actually started
22 discussing our further course of action and what measures to take.
23 Q. And where did the creation of night guards come from? Where were
24 the discussions -- sorry, when were the discussions? And was the
25 decision to create night guards part of a number of decisions which were
1 in response to the events?
2 A. It was actually kind of an extorted reaction to the developments
3 that were taking place, because the people started to self-organise in a
4 number of villages. So in order to prevent incidents and undesirable
5 situations, we thought that the SDS should place such guards under some
6 form of control and to link all of them into a sort of a unified whole.
7 Q. And what was Milan Babic's role in this decision-making, if you
8 recall it?
9 A. Milan Babic was the key figure in the adoption of all our
10 decisions because being a man of -- an operative, he knew all of us were
11 in the field, and we supported him and we always voted for his proposals
12 and the decisions that he proposed.
13 Q. But why was that, why did the Main Board place such trust with
14 Milan Babic?
15 A. We trusted him because we thought that he was the one who most
16 directly and most efficiently conveyed our positions and our opinions and
17 translated them into proposals of decisions.
18 Q. And what was your personal relationship with Milan Babic through
19 the -- towards the end of 1990 and early 1991?
20 A. I can say that our relations were correct and as of October 1991
21 they were in fact exceptional. We were friends. And I thought myself
22 one of his more intimate associates within the circle of five or six of
23 his closest associates. With time, this friendship strengthened.
24 Q. And before October 1991, during 1991 itself, how often would you
25 see him, and, again, in which circumstances, generally? We'll come to
1 the specifics shortly.
2 A. Very frequently, every seven or 15 days. There wouldn't be
3 longer breaks than 15 days. We would go to Knin and he would attend our
4 meetings in Kordun at Banija in October as well as later regarding the
5 establishment of the Territorial Defence and the adoption of the Statute
6 of the SAO Krajina in the Kordun municipalities. Simply, we were
7 frequently in personal contact.
8 Q. Let me ask you, please, about 65 ter 436.
9 MR. JORDASH: It's in Your Honours' chart at the beginning.
10 Could we have it on the screen, please.
11 Q. I want to ask you to elaborate on a number of things.
12 THE REGISTRAR: This is D302, Your Honour.
13 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
14 Q. You've seen this before and you've commented on it; that's right,
15 Mr. Witness?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, this is a statement, as we can see, from a Mr. Ognjen. And
18 within the statement he discusses the Council of National Resistance.
19 What was Babic's role within the Council of National Resistance in
20 October of 19 -- sorry, in December of 1990, the date of this statement?
21 A. In August.
22 Q. The statement is dated December of 1990.
23 MR. JORDASH: We can see -- we can go to the 5th page of the
24 English and the 6th page of the B/C/S.
25 Q. The statement is December 1990. And since we are on the last
1 page, you can see there, three paragraphs from the top, what the author
2 of this statement is saying:
3 "I also know that citizens were given the weapons of the Knin SJS
4 reservists. These weapons were handed out on the 17th of August, 1990,
5 after the Knin SJS warehouse was broken into, but I don't know exactly
6 whom the weapons were issued to. I heard that there was a list stating
7 to whom the weapons were given, and I know that in that period
8 Dragan Batas of Strmica was in charge of 10 men who were guarding
9 Milan Babic, Knin SO president, and that probably they had been issued
10 some of the weapons."
11 And then the second paragraph from the bottom:
12 "I also want to mention that people in town are openly saying
13 that Simo Dubajic and Milo Martic are handing out weapons and probably
14 have lists of the people they sold the weapons to."
15 You following me, Mr. Bosnic?
16 A. Yes, but I didn't have this in Serbia when you made this
17 reference to Mr. Batas. As for Simo Dubajic and Martic, I have it in
18 Serbian. But -- no, I apologise, I have found it. Now it's all right.
19 I have found it.
20 Q. Okay. Just a have a read of that to yourself.
21 A. Yes. All right. I've read it.
22 Q. Can you comment on that? Do you know anything about this in
23 August of 1990?
24 A. The first time I heard that Milan Martic distributed any weapons,
25 to the best of my knowledge he did not do that. There were different
1 stories being bandied about. People were saying that Simo Dubajic was
2 selling some rifles, but I don't know about that firsthand. But as for
3 Martic, there were no such stories.
4 Q. And who was Simo Dubajic?
5 A. Simo Dubajic was a fighter in the Second World War who was more
6 of a Bohemian and less of a fighter, actually. He was long on talk and
7 short on deeds.
8 Q. Right. Let's just return to my question about the Council for
9 National Resistance.
10 MR. JORDASH: If we turn to page 1 of the English and 1 of the
12 Q. The author says the following halfway down the English page:
13 "I'm aware that after a state of war was declared, the staff for
14 defence of Knin --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please provide the reference
16 in the original and B/C/S.
17 MR. JORDASH: Page 1 of the English and 1 of the B/C/S.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And where approximately?
19 MR. JORDASH: In the B/C/S, it's about halfway down the page.
20 Q. "I am aware that a state of war was declared -- I am aware that
21 after a state of war was declared, the staff for defence of Knin was
22 formed in the Omladinsko Naselje settlement in the village of Golubic.
23 The staff was later renamed Council of National Resistance."
24 And then the author goes on to list a number of people associated
25 with Council of National Resistance.
1 And if we go over the page to -- are you following me,
2 Mr. Bosnic?
3 A. Yes, I'm following. No problem.
4 Q. Then towards the bottom of that page, the writer also says:
5 "I learned that the staff members," with reference to the Council
6 of National Resistance, "also included Zelenbaba, Opacic," over the page
7 in the English, page 2 of the B/C/S, "Peric, and Milan Babic, Knin SO
8 municipal president who was also staff commander. Martic was saying that
9 he was given the duty of staff commander and they were all given their
10 duties by Milan Babic to add a sense of seriousness to the work."
11 Can you comment on what the --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
13 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour, I have a couple of objections.
14 First of all, counsel is using this statement of a witness who didn't
15 testify. This is generally something that we oppose. Now, I saw the
16 comments - and it's something that counsel also opposes, I should add.
17 It's an out-of-court statement, untested. Having read the comments of
18 the witness in the comments chart, I hesitated to make that objection
19 because I think that the content does relate, certainly in part at least,
20 to the witness's knowledge.
21 However, what counsel is now proceeding to do is to ask leading
22 questions using quotations from this statement. So I would object to the
23 way it's being used. I think the -- with respect to the admission of the
24 statement, which counsel hasn't done yet but I presume he's going to
25 tender it --
1 JUDGE ORIE: We're talking about D302, isn't it?
2 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Which is marked for identification. So therefore --
4 MS. MARCUS: I was -- yes, I was talking about the -- the --
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- the chart.
6 MS. MARCUS: No, 65 ter 436, which is what we're ...
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that is D302. Yes.
8 MS. MARCUS: Okay. Well, I apologise for that, in that case.
9 But I would like to maintain my objection that the way that the counsel
10 is leading the witness is not by asking open-ended questions and then
11 comparing it to the -- to what we have in front of us but, rather, by
12 putting statements in a way which leads the witness to a particular
13 answer. So I'd like to request open-ended questions to the witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
15 MR. JORDASH: I can do it --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Before you proceed, we have a kind of a practice
17 developed here that you not put a statement of another witness or a
18 testimony of another witness to a witness unless you have asked
19 specifically about the subject matter and only after that, if there's any
20 need to do so, to put the statement or earlier testimony to the witness.
21 And of course this is already our practice in cross-examination, so let
22 alone in chief, but --
23 MR. JORDASH: Well, I would submit that that's not accurate.
24 That there is a practice where statements of witnesses who have testified
25 in this courtroom or whose statements have been admitted pursuant to
1 Rule 66, that's the practice. But in relation to exhibits, in relation
2 to --
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's not an exhibit yet. I mean, D302 is marked for
4 identification because I think it was -- that still has to be considered,
5 what kind of a statement this is, and I think we are still waiting for
6 objections to -- not to say that there will be objections, but at least
7 that matter has not been settled yet.
8 MR. JORDASH: Well, Your Honour, I don't know the exhibit number
9 off the top of my head, but the Prosecution produced, during a witness's
10 testimony, a statement by Ilija Kojic given to the RS MUP in 2003 and
11 used it to cross-examine a witness and then applied to have it admitted.
12 And despite what my learned friend has just said, we didn't oppose that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't have a clear recollection of how that
14 exactly was used. If statements are taken not for the purposes of this
15 Tribunal, then at least 92 ter does not oppose admission of such
16 documents. So to that extent I would be inclined to agree with you. But
17 it depends on the way in which it is used and also whether there's any
18 objection to admission to evidence of such a statement. And we just
19 don't know at this moment.
20 MR. JORDASH: Well, if -- I'll try it in a different way.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. JORDASH:
23 Q. Do you know about the Council of National Resistance which, I
24 think there's no dispute about this, existed in 1990 in the Krajina; is
25 that correct?
1 A. Yes. After an attempted incursion into Benkovac, Obrovac, and
2 Knin, when Babic declared a state of war.
3 Q. What happened after Babic declared a state of war in relation to
4 the Council of National Resistance?
5 A. They withdrew to Golubic. There was some barracks or, rather,
6 huts there that had stayed over after certain public works, and then they
7 wanted to show how dangerous the situation was and --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat what he said.
9 MR. JORDASH: Could you -- sorry, Your Honour.
10 Q. Could you repeat what you just said, Mr. Bosnic, please.
11 A. Milan Babic declared a state of war. Certain members of the
12 leadership withdrew to the huts in Golubic that had stayed over after
13 voluntary labour projects there in Yugoslavia, and subsequently they
14 changed locations in order to stress the serious nature of the situation.
15 Q. Who changed locations? Which leadership changed locations?
16 A. Milan Babic, Martic. They were later joined by Pero Stikavac,
17 Mandinic. I can't recall them all now. They were mostly persons from
18 the Knin area.
19 Q. Were they members of the Main Board of the SDS?
20 A. Save for Martic, I believe they all were, yes.
21 Q. And how does this relate to the Council of National Resistance?
22 A. I don't understand the question.
23 Q. Well, we were talking about the Council of National Resistance,
24 and you started off by saying Babic declared a state of war and then
25 there was a retreat or withdrawal to Golubic.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What has that got to do with the Council of National Resistance?
3 A. Well, they withdrew to Golubic, the council headed by Babic.
4 Q. When was the Council of National Resistance formed and who was it
5 formed by?
6 A. This was Milan Babic's idea. It was set up at the point when
7 Knin was exposed to a threat from an incursion of the Croatian forces.
8 Q. In which point in time approximately?
9 A. It was the 17th or the 18th of August, 1990.
10 Q. How many people were in the Council of National Resistance?
11 A. A dozen, I believe.
12 Q. What was its stated purpose?
13 A. To mount resistance in the event that the Croatian forces launch
14 an attack on Knin.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I'm looking at the time.
16 MR. JORDASH: I can leave it there and pick it up after the
17 break, with Your Honours' leave.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll have a break, and we resume
19 at 4.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we proceed: Mr. Jordash, any answer to D56?
23 MR. JORDASH: Yes, the answer is the same as that we gave for
24 D55, which is that Dragisa Ristivojevic, who was an assistant to
25 Mr. Stanisic, gave the document to Mr. Stanisic in 1992. We -- yes,
1 that's it.
2 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, my understanding was that this was
3 going to be a document that we were going -- that the Defence was
4 going -- one of the several documents that the Defence was going to
5 submit an RFA to try to get the original version. Perhaps I'm mistaken,
6 I do believe this is -- D55 and D56 were among that pile.
7 MR. JORDASH: That's right. And we did make a request to the
8 National Council and so far we've heard nothing back interest them.
9 JUDGE ORIE: When did you make that request?
10 MR. JORDASH: 6th of October, 2010.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And have you insisted on receiving an answer?
12 MR. JORDASH: Well, we've insisted on receiving an answer to many
13 things, and we intend to make it part of a soon-to-be-filed motion asking
14 Your Honours to intervene.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Don't hesitate to seek the support of the
16 Chamber in obtaining documents.
17 MR. JORDASH: No, we've certainly reached that point where we
18 will be filing something forthwith.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, I do not intend to spend a lot of time
20 on it at this moment, but.
21 MS. MARCUS: This is a different matter, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Different matter, yes.
23 MS. MARCUS: I just wanted to raise for Your Honours the fact
24 that we have just today received a response to an RFA we sent to the
25 Republic of Croatia. We sent it immediately upon receipt of the Defence
1 witness list. We received now back today an 85 -- 85 pages in response
2 to Mr. Bosnic.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Today you received it.
4 MS. MARCUS: Today we received it. Now, I cannot express our
5 position on it. It's in B/C/S, it's in Cyrillic also, so it takes some
6 time for that to be reviewed.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MS. MARCUS: We will -- we're reviewing it with the utmost of
9 urgency. I just wanted to let Your Honours know that that was the
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would say if it would be in Roman script
12 it would be far easier for you, isn't it?
13 MS. MARCUS: There are some people who can do better with that,
14 Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, that's the easiest thing to do is to read
16 the Cyrillic letters, but then to understand the language.
17 Mr. Jordash, a totally different matter: I asked you
18 specifically before the break whether a B/C/S version of the proofing
19 notes did exist because I thought it might be useful to have that
20 available for the witness to -- now, you said no, but I do understand,
21 unless it was produced in 20 minutes, but I take it that it was there
22 because it has been shown to me over the break.
23 MR. JORDASH: No, it was produced during the court proceedings by
24 our assistant who fortunately works very fast.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If she started translating it when I asked the
1 question and when it was finished by then, I must praise her for the
2 speed in which she is able to put, I take it, provisional translations
3 on paper.
4 MR. JORDASH: Yes, she saved us on many an occasion.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's great to hear. I do also understand that it
6 has been provided to the witness.
7 MR. JORDASH: I think that's right. And if I then --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then you can proceed on the basis of that. Has it
9 been uploaded yet or ...?
10 MR. JORDASH: Yes, it has on --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then let's proceed.
12 MR. JORDASH: If I can take the witness straight to that now and
13 deal with that formality.
14 Q. Mr. Bosnic, we want to just return to the amendments. So I want
15 to deal with formalities before we return back to the substance of your
17 MR. JORDASH: Please could we have on e-court D314. Sorry, on
18 the screen, I meant.
19 Q. On the 8th of July, Mr. Bosnic, did you review your statement and
20 make amendments to it?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. JORDASH: If we could go to the bottom of the page, please.
23 Q. Do you recognise these amendments?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do these amendments reflect the clarifications you wanted to make
1 at that time to your statement?
2 A. Yes, except for paragraph 3, right at the start.
3 Q. And would you want to make a clarification to that paragraph?
4 A. Yes. The word "accepted" has been left out. However, after the
5 first round of multi-party elections, the leaders of the SDP left the --
6 abandoned the SDP programme and accepted Tudjman's idea. The word
7 "accepted" is not there.
8 Q. Apart from that, do these amendments reflect what you wanted to
9 say and what clarifications you wanted to make?
10 A. Yes. I looked at it over the break and that's it.
11 Q. And the statement plus these amendments are, in substance, what
12 you would answer if asked the same questions today?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And those answers are in accordance with the truth?
15 A. I took an oath, yes.
16 MR. JORDASH: May the statement and the amendments be tendered,
18 MS. MARCUS: No objections.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D313 and D314 are admitted into evidence.
20 Mr. Jordash, one final comment: The map marked by the witness, I
21 already complained about the time it took, but if you look at it now,
22 where it's totally unclear what was marked by the witness when, upon what
23 question. It looks like a Rorschach test at this moment rather than
24 anything else. Of course, sometimes you can read on the map what it is
25 but often it's just dots. And since we are not psychiatrists but lawyers
1 and we do not interpret Rorschach tests, the Chamber would not oppose an
2 agreed map with the relevant markings with understandable -- not only for
3 us but also if at any later stage anyone would have to look at it such as
4 the Appeals Chamber, then of course it's totally useless as it is now.
5 MR. JORDASH: We'll arrange a map then and have the Prosecution
6 look at it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, one of the things that still has to be
8 done is that - to D314, which are the proofing notes - that the B/C/S
9 translation should attach -- be attached to it, because if I open my
10 e-court, it is -- and, as a matter of fact, you can't do that, but the
11 Registry is the only one who can do it. So if it is ready to be
12 attached, I'll instruct the Registrar to do it.
13 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to attach
15 the uploaded translation of D314, proofing notes, and make it part of
16 D314. Everything's now on the record.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
18 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Bosnic, are your headphones comfortable? You look as though
20 you're constantly struggling with them and it's making me nervous.
21 A. It's all right.
22 Q. Okay. The Council of National Resistance - let's just try to
23 move through this swiftly - what was its purpose, what did it do?
24 A. Its purpose was to co-ordinate the activities of village guards
25 and the police in the event that the Croatian forces of the Croatian
1 Special Police units advance into this particular area of Lika, Northern
2 Dalmatia, and specifically Knin.
3 Q. What was it anticipating that the Special Police units of the
4 Croatians would do upon advance?
5 A. What was anticipated was crimes and civilian victims. It was
6 expected that they wanted to enter the area in order to destroy the
7 Serbian people there and place the territory under Croatian control.
8 Q. How long did the Council of National Resistance exist?
9 A. For a very short period of time. A month or two.
10 Q. How did it dissolve or how was it disbanded?
11 A. Well, it simply ceased to operate. What was embarked upon was an
12 effort to institutionalise Lika and the entire area into a whole.
13 Q. What did that mean in a practical sense, to institutionalise Lika
14 and the entire area into a whole?
15 A. This means that institutions would be set up, such as the TO, a
16 proper police force, a secretariat for health care, a secretariat for
17 education, et cetera, in order to create counterparts, as it were, to
18 these same institutions in Croatia.
19 Q. Okay. Let's return, if I may, to the statement of Mr. Ognjen,
20 which is D302. You've read this statement. Could you just assist in
21 this regard: Biserko Ognjen, son of the father Ilija, do you know what
22 his ethnicity was? Can you tell by his name?
23 A. It's very hard to tell, but I do assume he's a Serb.
24 Q. Now, reading the statement - you've read the statement, haven't
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And it lists a number of people, on page 1 of the English and 1
3 of the B/C/S and 2 of the English and 2 of the B/C/S, who were members of
4 the Council of National Resistance. If you want to, you can remind
5 yourself. But the question is: Do you agree with that or not?
6 MS. MARCUS: Objection, Your Honour. This is the exact example
7 of what I was opposing before. Counsel can ask the witness who were
8 members of the Council of National Resistance but not put to the witness
9 a proposition directly from a statement like this and ask the witness
10 to -- I mean, it's leading in the ultimate example.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It is leading, Ms. Marcus. The question, however,
12 is to what extent that should be inadmissible at this moment.
13 Would you know by heart who the members were, witness?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't be able to tell you all,
15 but there was Mandinic, Vitas, Babic, Martic. There were others. I
16 can't give you the names of all of them. There were more of them for
17 sure, but I can't recall all their names. It was a long time ago.
18 You'll understand.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know how important is it for you, but if
20 Mr. Jordash would like to refresh the memory of the witness then he is
21 allowed to do so.
22 Ms. Marcus, to some extent I do agree with you that of course
23 it's leading, but in a Tribunal where proofing witnesses, showing
24 whatever you want to show to them before you examine them in chief, and
25 then to say you shouldn't lead is, of course, well, a bit inconsistent
1 from a systematic point of view, because then it's not a long-term memory
2 but rather the short-term memory of whether he remembers what he saw
3 yesterday. So to that extent let's try to remain practical as well.
4 Mr. Jordash, if it's important for you, please --
5 MR. JORDASH: Well -- sorry, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And it's even a matter -- I do not know to what
7 extent this would be matters on which one could even agree. I don't know
8 what the formal status -- how formal it is and whether -- how many
9 dispute there is about membership of this.
10 MR. JORDASH: Well, let me deal with it in a different way, if I
11 may, to shortcut things.
12 Q. It's been suggested by a witness in this court or a witness
13 relied upon by the Prosecution that the Council of National Resistance
14 was headed by Stanisic, Jovica Stanisic. Could you comment on that,
16 A. That's nonsensical. No, that's not true.
17 Q. Why do you say nonsensical?
18 A. Because I can't believe that this person could have stated
19 something like that. It was simply not the truth. And anyone who was
20 present in the area was aware of it. Everyone knew who the members were,
21 at least the main ones.
22 Q. Did you ever speak to Babic about this council?
23 A. We discussed it in passing. But I talked about it from other --
24 I talked about it with other individuals from the SDS who were
25 knowledgeable about these matters, and one of them, Petar Stikavac, is
1 mentioned in this statement.
2 Q. What was your relationship to Petar Stikavac?
3 A. We were on excellent terms.
4 Q. Professionally or personally?
5 A. Initially professionally and later on personally because Petar
6 was one of the founders of the SDS.
7 Q. And we're talking about a period in 1990; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Beginning, middle, or end of 1990?
10 A. Our professional relationship began sometime in May and our
11 friendship in mid-1991. The professional relationship dates back to
12 May 1990 and our friendship from mid-1991.
13 Q. Now, looking at this statement on the screen, at the beginning
14 there's a reference there to the "state of war being declared in Knin on
15 the 17th of August, 1990, by Knin SAO president Milan Babic for the
16 purpose of defence from special units of the Republic of Croatia which
17 had tried in the previous evening to confiscate some weapons from the
18 Benkovac and Obrovac public security police stations."
19 Now, in relation to the attempt by -- or the purported attempt,
20 according to this statement, of the special units of the Republic of
21 Croatia to seize weapons, was that something you observed or experienced
22 in Croatia at that time?
23 A. I was not in Knin at the time. And these events took place in
24 Dalmatia. And what I know comes from the meetings discussing these
1 Q. Well, at paragraph -- let's return to your statement.
2 Paragraph D313, paragraph 4, you note at the bottom, halfway through the
3 paragraph, in relation to the night guards:
4 "The people guarding were civilian inhabitants of the villages
5 and were carrying their own licensed hunting arms. We informed the
6 police stations in our municipalities, who still were in contact with
7 Zagreb and not with Knin, that we were not going to allow," and here's an
8 amendment, "the Croatian police to take out the armament of reserve
9 forces and bring the armament in the Karlovac and Zagreb police
11 Do you recall giving that evidence?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What were the reserve forces that you refer to, reserve armament?
14 A. This was part of the police force in the municipalities of
15 Vojnic and Vrginmost.
16 Q. What were the -- did this have anything to do with weapons?
17 A. No. The weapons were kept under key, and by establishment they
18 belonged to the reserve police force and could only be used in the event
19 of a war.
20 Q. Did the police stations all have reserve weapons at that time?
21 A. Yes, in Croatia and elsewhere throughout Yugoslavia.
22 Q. What kind of reserve weapons did the police stations have?
23 A. They had automatic rifles, gas masks, and that was it, so
24 automatic rifles.
25 Q. And what kind of amount, volumes, of reserve weapons did the
1 police stations have?
2 A. They were small quantities. The reserve force had
3 approximately -- the strength of the reserve force was approximately the
4 same as the peacetime force in regular conditions. Of course, it
5 depended on the actual area in question covered by the specific police
7 Q. Do you know what the reserve weapon volume was for Knin before
8 Martic took over the station?
9 A. No, but the principle was the same everywhere. The weapons had
10 been there for -- from before, for some ten years or so.
11 Q. Let's move on to paragraph 9 of your statement and the barricades
12 that went up in Knin. Were these organised by anyone?
13 A. The barricades went up spontaneously in response to threats and
14 the attempts of the Croatian police forces to come to the area.
15 Q. And after arising spontaneously, were they organised
17 A. Yes. Barricades were also erected in the area of Lika, in
18 municipalities where the SDS had power, having won [indiscernible] the
19 elections; whereas in Kordun and Banija, this started only later. In
20 fact, they only had night watches, they did not have barricades. Night
22 Q. Did you have an opportunity to visit or pass through the
24 A. Yes. Every time we came to Knin, we had to pass by the
1 Q. Was there anybody manning the barricades who were not locals?
2 A. To my knowledge, no, these were people in their ordinary clothes
3 which they normally wore at home and with just hunting rifle --
5 Q. What role was Martic playing at this point in time, the time when
6 the barricades went up?
7 A. At that time Martic was a police inspector in Knin.
8 Q. Was he attending any SDS meetings?
9 A. No, he was not. At least not the Main Board meetings.
10 Q. Did you observe what his relationship was with Milan Babic?
11 A. They were on quite good terms, to the best of my knowledge.
12 Q. Let's move forward now to 1991. You've told us that you were
13 meeting Babic during this period. At what point was the government of
14 Krajina formed?
15 A. It was formed when the 7th municipality from that area, which is
16 Vojnic from Kordun, accepted the Statute of the SAO Krajina. I cannot
17 recall the exact date.
18 Q. How was the government formed, can you recall?
19 A. Following a proposal by Milan Babic at a session of the
20 Main Board.
21 Q. And how was it implemented, the suggestion or proposal?
22 A. This proposal was accepted by the Assembly of the SAO Krajina,
23 which was composed of seven MPs from each of the municipalities from the
24 area of the SAO Krajina.
25 Q. And the Assembly of the SAO Krajina, how were the decisions made
1 in the Assembly?
2 A. The proposal of the Main Board of the SDS, Milan Babic would
3 refer it to the government. Actually, the government's proposal would be
4 proposed to the Assembly by him, which would then take a vote. Actually,
5 the creator of that policy was Milan Babic, at that time already man
6 number one in the SDS.
7 Q. Did you have a role to play in the Assembly?
8 A. Only as of November 1991.
9 Q. Up until that time were you in contact with members of the
11 A. Yes. And when the preparations for the Assembly were underway, I
12 would refer to the Vojnic delegates, the stances of the SDS, either
13 decisions that they would be voted on, and I acquainted them with these
14 decisions, so, rather, the proposals of decisions that they would be
15 voting on.
16 Q. Let's just break that down a little. You would refer to the
17 Vojnic delegates, stances of the SDS. Could you just explain that a
19 A. That is the principle of work. That is how we worked prior -- in
20 every municipality. Namely, an SDS -- the SDS representative and the
21 delegation would acquaint the delegation which comprised seven delegates
22 with all the materials which were discussed at the Main Board session of
23 the SDS, which would then be part of the Assembly agenda so that at the
24 Assembly session they would vote on any proposed decisions in keeping
25 with the discussions at the Main Board and their stance taken there.
1 MR. JORDASH: Could we have P1119, please.
2 Q. This is a decision to appoint Milan Martic as secretary of the
3 interior of the Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina, issued by the
4 Executive Council of the Serbian Autonomous District Krajina in Knin,
5 signed by Milan Babic, 4th of January, 1991. It's in the chart at
6 number 2. You say in the chart:
7 "I was present when the SDS Main Board discussed and adopted this
8 decision. Milan Babic recommend Milan Martic."
9 Who else was present at the SDS Main Board when this was
11 A. There were over a hundred people present. I'm not sure of the
12 exact number. Over a hundred members of the Main Board from the entire
13 area of the SAO Krajina, Western Slavonia and Eastern Slavonia,
14 Baranja and Western Srem.
15 Q. Do you know or were you given any reasons why Babic recommended
16 Milan Martic?
17 A. Milan Babic recommended him, explaining that he was the first to
18 adopt the initiative of the people not to allow their weapons to be
19 seized and who placed himself at the helm of the resistance of the police
20 to such a decision. He said that he was a man from Knin, that he was
21 well known for being a patriot and a Serb.
22 Q. You make the comment in your chart that the Executive Council
23 adopted the recommendation afterwards and appointed Milan Martic. How
24 was the decision made at the Executive Council to adopt the
1 A. Milan Babic, as the president of the Executive Council of the
2 Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina, with a party leadership and other
3 members of the council who were the presidents of the municipalities
4 proposed this decision, the council adopted that decision, and
5 Milan Babic signed the adopted decision.
6 Q. How was the decision adopted? Was it put to the vote?
7 A. Yes, it was. And it had to be adopted by a majority. And as far
8 as I know, this particular decision was accepted, adopted, unanimously.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Would counsel please
10 switch off his microphone while the witness is responding. Thank you
11 very much.
12 MR. JORDASH: Certainly. Sorry.
13 Q. During that decision-making process, did you hear of
14 Jovica Stanisic? Did Stanisic have anything to do with that decision
15 from where you were able to observe?
16 A. To the best of my knowledge, and I believe that I was very
17 familiar with matters, Jovica Stanisic had nothing whatsoever to do with
18 the adoption of that decision. Had he had anything to do with that
19 decision, I certainly would have known that and the others would have
20 been informed. Milan Babic never mentioned Jovica Stanisic or anybody
21 else in connection with this decision. That had been exclusively a
22 proposal of his.
23 MR. JORDASH: Can we have, please, P1907. In Your Honours'
24 chart, page 2, number 4.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, if I -- if you allow me to interrupt
1 you for a second. You earlier referred to a witness or at least a
2 statement on which the Prosecution relied in relation to the -- who
3 chaired the -- I have difficulties in finding it. I'd like to re-read
4 exactly what that evidence is. Do you have any source for me?
5 MR. JORDASH: This is the witness who claimed that Stanisic was
6 in control of the Council of National Resistance, is that the issue?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the issue, but I -- even with all my
8 search engines, I'm --
9 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, it's Mr. Babic himself. And he refers to
10 this on a number of occasions, but --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
12 MR. JORDASH: -- for example, P1878, and it's page 339 on
13 e-court, and it's evidence Babic gave on 26th of November in the
14 Milosevic trial, page 13490, where Babic talked about trying to disband
15 the Council of National Resistance.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I'll have a look at it. Thank you. Please proceed.
17 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. P1907, Mr. Witness, an unsigned document with the name of
19 Milan Babic, regarding a decision to establish the Secretariat for the
20 Interior of the Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina,
21 4th of January, 1991. And you comment that Article 7 shows that Martic
22 was not in charge of the internal organisation of the Secretariat, but it
23 was Milan Babic through the Executive Council. Could you just elaborate
24 on that a little, please.
25 A. As regards the internal organisation of the work of the
1 Secretariat, this could not have been decided by Martic alone. It had to
2 be decided by the council or, rather, the Executive Council of the
3 SAO Krajina. The internal organisation and the actual mode of operation
4 of the Secretariat could not have been actually decided upon by Martic
5 but had to be adopted by the council as an organ, not by Martic.
6 Q. Did Martic play any role in this?
7 A. Yes, he did. He participated in the preparations.
8 Q. Did he have a vote on the Executive Council?
9 A. Only after his appointment as secretary.
10 Q. How do you have this information? How do you know this?
11 A. I know on the basis of the work of the Main Board. We know how
12 the Executive Council of the Serbian Autonomous District functioned, and
13 we know how they adopted decisions. Members of the board, all of them
14 except for Martic, I believe, were members of the council. I apologise,
15 of the main SDS board.
16 Q. Do you know if this decision or this establishment of the
17 Secretariat had anything to do with Serbia and particularly
18 Jovica Stanisic?
19 A. As far as I know, no. Namely, Milan Babic never mentioned
20 Jovica Stanisic in connection with the proposal of this decision or in
21 connection with the proposal to appoint Milan Martic as secretary.
22 Q. Do you know at this time how often Martic and Babic were
23 associating and the nature of that association?
24 A. I believe that they co-operated on a daily basis. Namely, they
25 agreed on activities.
1 MR. JORDASH: Could we have, please, the chart on the screen,
3 Q. And I want to ask you about a comment you made in the chart.
4 It's page 2 of the chart, and it's in relation to Exhibit P1101. And at
5 page 2 of the exhibit or the chart, having looked at an order to mobilise
6 the Territorial Defence of the Serbian Autonomous District Krajina and
7 volunteer units in order to defend citizens and its territorial integrity
8 issued by Dr. Milan Babic, president of the Executive Council of the
9 SAO Krajina, 1st of April, and you note: This document confirms my
10 knowledge that it was Babic who issued orders to Martic and others in
11 relation to the mobilisation of the TO.
12 What knowledge do you have of that relationship other than that
14 A. This document was in fact a request to the Government of Serbia
15 and the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia because it was high time they
16 helped us in technical terms and by training in order for us to set up a
17 unit that would be prepared and able to resist Croatian special units,
18 because their raid in Plitvice definitely proved that our village guards
19 and regular police were simply not able enough in military terms to
20 counter such incursions of the Croatian special units or of the units of
21 the Croatian National Guards Corps. And we had nobody else to turn to
22 but the Government of Serbia and the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia.
23 Q. You make the point there in the comments that Babic told you in
24 1992 that he had good relations with Bogdanovic in 1991. Can you recall
25 the conversation and what was said?
1 A. Yes, Babic told me that he had good relations with Bogdanovic and
2 that he had addressed him as well and met with him when he arrived in
3 Belgrade. And that those were really good relations was confirmed by
4 Bogdanovic himself because we met at a meeting in Belgrade in 1992 when
5 Babic asked Bogdanovic to help iron out the Babic/Milosevic relationship.
6 I too attended that meeting.
7 Q. Thank you. Let's move on.
8 MR. JORDASH: P1892, please.
9 Q. This is an order --
10 MR. JORDASH: This is on, Your Honours, page 3 of the chart.
11 Q. An order issued by Milan Babic, president of the Serbian
12 Autonomous District Krajina government, a minister of defence to mobilise
13 all Territorial Defence headquarters and units on the territory, the
14 Serbian Autonomous District Krajina. And in the chart you make the
15 comment that this document again shows that Milan Babic was in charge of
16 the mobilisation of the TO of Krajina. Could you explain what you mean
17 by that?
18 A. Well, you can see here that Milan Babic is signing as the
19 minister of defence and the prime minister, so he had a dual function in
20 order to be able to keep tabs on things. It was he who issued orders.
21 He personally issued orders to Territorial Defence staffs in the
23 Q. Now, what did it mean in practical terms at that point in time
24 for Milan Babic to be signing as the minister of defence? What power did
25 he have as minister of defence?
1 A. He had powers to order mobilisation of the Territorial Defence;
2 for lists to be drawn up of men comprised within the Territorial Defence,
3 to see what their particular skills were, their digits within the
4 military establishment, whether they would belong to the infantry or the
5 artillery branch; what was lacking, what was the strength of the
6 able-bodied population in the area covered by a specific
7 Territorial Defence staff, i.e., within a specific municipality.
8 Q. And at that point in time what Territorial Defence unit existed?
9 We're talking about middle of 1991.
10 A. There was a TO unit in every municipality. And its strength, of
11 course, depended on the particular municipality, on the numbers of the
12 population of a specific municipality.
13 Q. Can you give some examples?
14 A. For instance, in the area of Vojnic, it was the strength of a
15 brigade, between 1600 and 1800 people. But I apologise, I think it is of
16 the essence to say that the TO was under JNA command.
17 Q. And how was it armed? Where did the TO unit receive their arms?
18 A. TO units had some personal weapons which was also stored in
19 warehouses. And as for the rest, it would be given to them by the JNA in
20 time of war, in the event of war, and the JNA would be deciding on the
21 manner of use of all Territorial Defence units in any areas where
22 military operations were taking place.
23 Q. Now, you say Babic had powers to order the mobilisation of the
24 Territorial Defence. How would that process take place? Did he make the
25 decision himself or was it subject to agreement? How did it happen in
1 practical terms?
2 A. I believe that Babic could not sign such a decision without the
3 agreement of the federal Secretariat for National Defence.
4 Q. Was this subject to any government decision within the Krajina or
6 A. In actual terms not, but formally, yes, in order to demonstrate
7 that the Krajina could function autonomously.
8 Q. Did you speak to Babic about his function as minister of defence?
9 A. No. I considered it normal because that was the adopted staffing
10 scheme, as it were.
11 Q. Now, I want to ask you about allegations made by Babic. And
12 Babic makes various allegations about a parallel structure. Do you know
13 anything about a parallel structure which removed power from Babic in
15 A. No. I received my powers in late 1991 personally from
16 Milan Babic. It was only at a later date that this was passed through
17 the Assembly of SAO Krajina when I was appointed president of the
18 War Presidency for the municipality of Slunj.
19 Q. You received your powers in late 1991. Which powers were these,
20 which position did you receive personally from Babic?
21 A. I was a representative of the civilian authorities for the
22 municipality of Slunj. I was charged with creating all the necessary
23 conditions for the civilian authority in Slunj to function normally; that
24 means health care, schools, police, postal services, et cetera.
25 Q. How was Babic able to give you that position?
1 A. By virtue of him being the prime minister. The decision had been
2 taken previously to set up civilian authorities in Slunj, stationed in
3 Veljun, but this had never taken hold. Now, once the Croatian population
4 abandoned Slunj and Slunj was emptied, Babic said, Where is the civilian
5 government there? He was told that there was none. At that point he
6 called me and told me, Bosnic, it is your task now to set up civilian
7 authorities in Slunj and you will be the president of the War Presidency.
8 Q. Do you know if Babic acted in that way only in relation to you or
9 was he making other appointments?
10 A. I am familiar with this case which involved myself. The
11 situation in Slunj was somewhat peculiar compared to the other
12 municipalities in SAO Krajina. But I do know that he was the one who
13 suggested that Milan Martic appoint specific chiefs of police stations in
14 Kordun. In that context, I suggested who should be the chief of police
15 for the municipality of Slunj to Milan Babic; that was Milos Pajic. I --
16 and as for Martic's assistants for Kordun, that was supposed to be
17 Toso Pajic. Those were my proposals that I submitted to Milan Babic at
18 his request. He in turn forwarded them to Martic, and Martic appointed
19 both of them, complying with his request.
20 Q. Okay. Let's just break that down a little. At what point in
21 time are you referring? When did Babic make the proposal for Toso Pajic
22 to be appointed?
23 A. It was sometime in early December. Milan Babic told me that
24 Martic had asked him to ask me if there was good policemen whom Martic
25 could appoint as his assistant charged with the area of Kordun. I
1 applied first to Milos Pajic who was in Slunj. He told me that there was
2 someone better than him, namely Toso Pajic. This is what I conveyed to
3 Milan Babic. And Milan Martic, in February of 1992, appointed Pajic as
4 his assistant for Kordun.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: as his deputy for
7 MR. JORDASH:
8 Q. Now, I want to ask you about some allegations that Babic made.
9 MR. JORDASH: P1878, e-court page 45.
10 Q. And I want you to comment on some allegations. At transcript
11 18th of November, 2002, Babic testified in the Milosevic trial about a
12 so-called parallel structure in the Krajina.
13 MR. JORDASH: Page reference: 46.
14 Q. And Babic asked -- is asked:
15 "What do you mean when you say 'so-called parallel structure in
16 the Krajina'?"
17 "A. I mean by this a group of people which consisted of members
18 of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia, Public Security Service of
19 Serbia, people from the police in the Serbian municipalities in Croatia,
20 and other people who were in close contact with them and which had not
21 been established by the legal authorities in Krajina or Croatia or
22 Serbia ... which played a special role in all the events starting from
23 August 1990 and in the following years.
24 "Q. Who was in this -- in the centre from the personality? Who
25 was in the centre of this parallel structure?
1 "A. The central figure was the chief of the State Security
2 Service of Serbia, Jovica Stanisic, followed by his assistant,
3 Franko Simatovic, then Captain Dragan 'Rasko' Vasiljkovic, and other
4 people from the State Security ... Serbia. Also Milan Martic from the
5 police force in Knin, several other people from the police force, and
6 many other people later.
7 "In fact, later, it was the entire police force in Serbian
8 municipalities Orlovic, Vitas; and presidents of the municipalities who
9 were closely related to them, Bozovic, Rastovic, Benkovac, Zecevic, and
10 other people."
11 Could you provide your comment on that allegation, please -- or
12 those allegations. First of all, did you observe during your political
13 and social activities members of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia
14 making and acting -- sorry, did you observe members of the Ministry of
15 the Interior of Serbia making decisions which impacted upon the
16 Government of the Krajina?
17 A. I would have been offended had someone taken decisions on my
18 behalf. I would have considered myself useless. There were few of us
19 and we knew one another well. The story of someone being here who was
20 from Serbia is ridiculous. It could not have happened without our
21 knowledge. I did my job in accordance with the law. I didn't know of
22 any parallel organs, nor did they exist in Kordun. I had never heard of
23 anything like that, and it's simply not the truth.
24 Q. Babic makes the point about later on this parallel structure
25 consisting of "the entire police force in the Serbian municipalities
1 Orlovic, Vitas; and presidents of the municipalities who were closely
2 related to them, Bozovic, Rastovic, Benkovac, Zecevic, and other people."
3 What was Babic's relationship with Orlovic during 1991?
4 A. To the best of my knowledge, the relationship was fair. And
5 Babic was at loggerheads with presidents of these various municipalities
6 who were founders of the SDS. I suppose they were unhappy with their
7 status, and they used political means to counter certain positions
8 expressed by Babic. But all these positions that Babic advocated were in
9 fact pushed through, and Babic's proposal for the establishment of the
10 Republic of the Serbian Krajina was in fact carried. On the
11 29th of December, 1991, it was, indeed, established. Whereas all these
12 other individuals you mentioned, Bozovic and others, fought against it.
13 It was on the 19th of December, not the 29th.
14 Q. Okay. So just slow down a minute.
15 A. My apologies.
16 Q. What was the nature of their dispute and how did it manifest
18 A. It manifested itself in political disagreements. They believed
19 that they were due a larger share of power and that they should have some
20 say-so in the decision-making process, but this was merely a verbal
21 confrontation at meetings.
22 Q. What kind of meetings were they engaged in?
23 A. These were party meetings and Assembly sessions. And I mean the
24 Assembly of SAO Krajina, later the RSK.
25 Q. Were you present at these meetings?
1 A. I was present at party meetings from the start, and I started
2 attending Assembly sessions in late November 1991. I would meet all
3 these various individuals. I first saw Mr. Jovica Stanisic in 1994. As
4 for Mr. Simatovic, I saw him in person for the first time here today.
5 Q. Going back to the political dispute about the establishment of
6 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, please explain how that dispute took
7 place and what happened. How was it that Babic succeeded against that
9 A. Generally our political position was to follow all or nearly any
10 activities undertaken by Croatia. If Croatia wanted to secede, we would
11 be asking to secede from Croatia the day before. If Croatia wanted to
12 strip us of our constituent status, then we wanted to be the first ones
13 to secede from Croatia. If a referendum was discussed, we wanted to be
14 the first ones to call a referendum. Babic believed that we had to
15 proclaim the Serbian Republic of the Krajina in order that we too, as
16 Croatia, may ask for our rights to be recognised and as well as
17 secession. This was where the conflict stemmed from. Milan Babic went
18 to Belgrade for discussions with Slobodan Milosevic.
19 While in Belgrade, he placed a call to the party head office
20 asking that an Assembly be convened, which was supposed to be the
21 constituent Assembly of the Serbian Republic of the Krajina. On the
22 evening before the Assembly session, he convened the Main Board and said
23 that this was the only way for us to counter Croatia. We accepted his
24 arguments and the Assembly was scheduled for the 19th.
25 Even though the Main Board members were opposed to the idea, they
1 went along with it at the very session and that was how the RSK was
2 proclaim. Later on, Babic said that Slobodan Milosevic was opposed to
3 the idea of proclaiming the RSK. I asked him, How was that possible?
4 Well, Babic said -- on my way out of his office, I told him that we would
5 not be proclaiming the republic, but as I got into the car, I said to
6 myself, What do I care? We are going ahead with it anyway.
7 Q. And during the Assembly meeting where this was decided, was this
8 decided by a vote?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was there discussion in the Assembly concerning Milosevic's view?
11 A. No, we weren't aware of Milosevic's view at all. This was
12 something that Babic told me at a later date. We accepted the proposed
13 decision by acclimation. All the deputies in attendance, and every
14 municipality had seven delegates, and I mean all the municipalities of
15 Krajina, and that's how the RSK was proclaimed.
16 Q. And these presidents of the municipalities who'd disagreed with
17 the proposal, how was their relationship with Babic following this
19 A. They complied with decisions of the parliament. They stayed in
20 their positions as members of parliament. Rastovic was in Lapac.
21 Bozovic was in Korenica. I think they were each in charge of the various
23 Q. Let's change subjects slightly and go to Exhibit 5595. These
24 are -- or this is a diary written by Mladic. I want to ask you about
25 some military matters which Mladic discusses.
1 MR. JORDASH: And page 52 of the English and the B/C/S.
2 I've been told that it's the break time, although I'm not sure of
4 JUDGE ORIE: It's approximately break time, yes. If this would
5 be a suitable moment, we would take the break now and we would resume at
6 quarter to 6.00.
7 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 5.49 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, before we continue, could you give us
11 an estimate because we never received an 92 ter estimate as the time
12 remaining for the examination of the witness. Initially for viva voce I
13 think it was four to five hours. Could you give us --
14 MR. JORDASH: Well, I still wanted to take between four and four
15 and a half hours. As Your Honours know, we dropped a witness who is
16 going to be dealing with the Krajina and therefore I wanted to take a
17 little bit longer with this witness to deal with some aspects of the
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll see. Please try to avoid repetitions
20 from what is already on paper. That's what sometimes happens.
21 Further, I would like to remind you that if a witness testifies
22 under Rule 92 ter in open court, that you are supposed, as a matter of
23 fact already at the beginning, to read a summary so as to inform the
24 public about what your follow-up questions, what they do follow up at.
25 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That you might have forgotten that.
2 MR. JORDASH: We did, yes. I did.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's move on. And please keep in mind that
4 is important for the public character of the trial. Please proceed.
5 MR. JORDASH:
6 Q. Before we turn to this diary, I just want to ask you about, just
7 very briefly, about Milan Babic's various titles, and I don't think
8 there's going to be a dispute, so I'll lead unless there's objection.
9 Milan Babic in 1990 was the president of the municipal committee
10 of the SDS in Knin; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in the same year, he was president of the Knin Municipal
13 Assembly; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And in the same year, he was president of the temporary
16 presidency of the community of Northern Dalmatia and Lika municipalities;
17 is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in the same year, he was president of the
20 Serbian National Council; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in the same year, he was president of the SAO Krajina?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And in the same year, he was president of the temporary Executive
25 Council of the SAO Krajina?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And in 1991 he was a member of the regional committee of the
3 SDS Krajina?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in the same year, he was president of the Executive Council
6 of the SAO Krajina?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And in 1991, same year, he was president of the Government of the
9 SAO Krajina?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And in the same year, he was the commander of the TO of the
12 SAO Krajina?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And in the same year, he was the defence minister in the Krajina?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And in the same year, he was the commander of the
17 SAO Krajina Armed Forces?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you able, just very briefly, to give an insight into how one
20 man managed to accumulate so many titles?
21 A. Well, admittedly not all of these functions were held at the same
22 time. But at any given time, Babic had several title. We trusted him
23 and we thought it best for him to occupy some of the key positions.
24 Q. And during 1990 and 1991, were those positions given to him by
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were there those within the various bodies, from the
3 National Council to the Executive Council to the government, who opposed
4 his election?
5 A. For the most part, no, unless there was a personal confrontation
6 like in the case of the presidents of the municipalities of Korenica and
8 Q. Thank you. Let's turn to the Mladic diaries. And 65 ter 5595
9 and page 24, which is on the screen. And it relates to entry on the
10 1st of July, 1991. Now, were you familiar, in your political role, with
11 military events on the ground during 1991? Did you receive information
12 about the role of the army and the role of Mladic?
13 A. About the role of the army, yes. And Mladic was mentioned both
14 in the areas of Dalmatia and Kordun, where I personally participated in
15 communications, meetings, discussions.
16 Q. What was the source of your information, in the main?
17 A. For the general picture, it was Mr. Milan Babic and other persons
18 I met within Knin. As for Kordun, they were members of the police,
19 representatives of the zone staff of the Territorial Defence with whom we
20 as representatives of either the party or the civilian authorities would
21 communicate. And some of them we even nominated for appointment within
22 the TO, where they were appointed by Babic. And finally, the TO was part
23 of the army, and it was in that context that we also learned of the
24 various issues concerning the army.
25 Q. Would you attend meetings which concerned the role of the TO in
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What kind of meetings were they?
4 A. They dealt with the way in which the TO was supposed to be set up
5 and operate, because Babic was not successful in having a unified system
6 of the TO up and running across Krajina in terms of all the TO commanders
7 who were appointed, being his own men, men loyal to him and the SDS.
8 Q. So how did that fact become part of the meetings? Who was
9 meeting, and in what circumstances, concerning the unification of the TO?
10 A. There was a meeting of the Main Board, and later just we from the
11 area of Kordun remained with Babic. There was me and another three
12 people from Banija. There was Mile Paspalj, who later was the president
13 of the Assembly of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.
14 The problem arose in connection with a fact, that the TO in the
15 area of Kordun, the municipal TO of Kordun, Vojnic, and Vrginmost,
16 accepted Mile Dakic whom Mile Babic had appointed commander of the TO.
17 So the discussion was about how to overcome the situation. And
18 Milan Babic said then that the best thing to do would be for him to
19 consult his contacts within the federal Secretariat of National Defence
20 in Belgrade, and following an agreement with them in respect of the zone
21 staffs, we should appoint retired officers who hailed from Krajina and
22 were now retired and lived in Serbia.
23 In fact, we accepted this idea of his, and shortly thereafter new
24 appointments were made and staffs were established, appointed by
25 Milan Babic, which started functioning throughout the Krajina area.
1 Q. Let's break that down a little. When did these events you've
2 just described take place?
3 A. This took place in 1991. Now, was it March or May? I cannot be
4 sure now.
5 Q. What was Babic's principal complaint?
6 A. Babic's principal complaint was that the personnel that he wished
7 to have replaced were people from the communist era and that they were
8 perhaps also co-operating with the Croats and that that should be
9 changed. But because of the resistance --
10 Q. Let me take this step by step, please. Babic wanted to replace
11 which personnel?
12 A. The TO staff commanders in the areas of Kordun and Banija
13 municipalities, which later accepted to join the SAO Krajina, those
14 municipalities, that is.
15 Q. Why did he want to replace the TO staff commanders in Kordun and
16 Banija municipalities?
17 A. In order to appoint his people, his party, people who were
18 suitable for him, who suited him not only according to the party line but
19 also in other ways.
20 Q. Who had selected the TO staff commanders in Kordun and Banija,
21 the ones he wanted to replace?
22 A. Well, they were there in the earlier system, the so-called system
23 of national defence at the level of Yugoslavia. These people
24 specifically had been appointed by the TO staff of Croatia at the time
25 while Yugoslavia still was a single state.
1 Q. What action did he take to try to replace the TO staff
3 A. He issued orders on the replacement of these people and orders on
4 reappointments, on appointments.
5 Q. Who did he issue orders to?
6 A. He issued these orders to the municipal TO staffs for the
7 replacement of so and so - I cannot recall the exact names at this
8 point - and for so and so to be installed in that person's stead.
9 Q. And was the order followed?
10 A. Not all of them.
11 Q. On what basis was there a refusal to follow the order?
12 A. People at the local level were of the view that the proposed
13 people were not, A, competent, and, B, that that he did not have the
14 necessary authority in the area.
15 Q. What happened when they refused to follow the order?
16 A. Babic looked for another solution and he came up with the idea
17 that zone staffs should be established and that he should discuss with
18 the federal Secretariat of National Defence in Belgrade the actual names
19 and agree on them, that they should be professionals, that they should
20 hail from the area of Krajina. And for the most part these were retired
21 JNA officers.
22 Q. Did he discuss with members of the federal Secretariat of
23 National Defence?
24 A. Absolutely. He actually brought back ready-made solutions. He
25 signed the order on their appointment.
1 Q. Do you know who he spoke to in the federal Secretariat of
2 National Defence, who he was co-operating with?
3 A. I believe that his name was Jokic. I'm not quite certain. It is
4 Jokic with a J. And there were quite a few other names that I cannot
5 recall at this moment, but I do know that the address was federal
6 Secretariat for National Defence, Admiral Jokic.
7 Q. And how was this issue then resolved?
8 A. These officers were appointed and they came and the zone staff
9 was established first for Kordun and later for Kordun and Banija. And
10 principally in the command structures of these staffs were men appointed
11 by Babic at the proposal of the federal Secretariat for National Defence.
12 And pursuant to an agreement with the federal Secretariat, they actually
13 arrived in our area.
14 Q. Were you in communication with Babic during this period over this
15 event and over these circumstances?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who did Babic blame at that time for the circumstances that
18 transpired, the refusal of the local TO or local authorities to follow
19 his order?
20 A. Well, the representatives of the local authorities.
21 Q. Can you remember who they were?
22 A. Well, the president of the municipality, the president of the
23 Executive Council of the municipality, the chief of the police.
24 Q. Did he hold Martic responsible for any of these circumstances?
25 A. No, he did not. No.
1 Q. Did he ever mention Stanisic or Simatovic or anyone from the
2 Serbian DB?
3 A. Never, ever. On no occasion did he mention them. What he would
4 say is these are those old Commies who forget that the communist era has
5 passed, and they belong to the League of Communists - Movement for
7 Q. Were you in agreement with his views at that time?
8 A. Well, I was, because what mattered to me was that those people
9 should be from Kordun. And they had high ranks, they were majors or
10 colonels, and I thought that quite sufficient. But actually I did not
11 personally know any of those people nor had I proposed them nor had any
12 one of the people that I knew.
13 Q. Let's return or let's start with the Mladic diary. And page 24,
14 relating to July 1991. And in particular, the 1st of July, 1991. And
15 Mladic notes that:
16 "The army has a task and a holy duty to prevent a fratricidal
17 war. We must be proud of the fact that not a single victim has fallen in
18 the zone of the corps."
19 At that time are you able to -- let me start that again.
20 Putting yourself back into that time, taking your mind back to
21 July 1991, do you know what view you held about the role of the army, the
22 JNA, at that point? And I mean you as an individual.
23 A. Let me put it this way: It was a cold and warm position, a
24 lukewarm position. We expected the JNA to fulfill its mission, the
25 raison d'être of the JNA, to protect the territory of Yugoslavia overall,
1 including us in that Yugoslavia. But what bothered us was the fact that
2 those officers still lived in the communist era. They still carried this
3 five-pointed star, a symbol of that past failed system. And we did not
4 want our members of our defence to wear the five-pointed star; we wanted
5 them to take it off. So that it was lukewarm or, rather, cold and warm
6 in that system. They had not kicked their old habits as yet.
7 Q. In July of 1991, what role did the JNA play in relation to the
8 events in the regions you were politically active in?
9 A. The JNA's task was, and initially it did that, to prevent the
10 conflict. But it did not do much to disarm the
11 already-existing paramilitary units in Croatia, but [indiscernible] our
12 relations with it were correct, because the Territorial Defence in the
13 event of armed conflicts failed under the competence of the JNA and was
14 supposed to comply with the orders of the JNA. On one occasion
15 reservists without arms went to Karlovac, called by the JNA, they were
16 then intercepted at the Karlovac bridge and all were killed.
17 Q. You make the point that the JNA did not disarm the
18 already-existing paramilitary units in Croatia. Did you and your
19 political colleagues form a view as to whether the JNA was acting
20 properly in relation to the Croatian paramilitaries?
21 A. It was our view that the JNA was not acting, so to speak,
22 aggressively enough in relation to the paramilitary units. While we,
23 until July or so, had only hunting weapons, they had automatic weapons.
24 And the JNA, the army was saying that they would disarm them, but they
1 MR. JORDASH: Could we have page 52, please.
2 Q. While that's being found: Do you know what Babic's view was
3 concerning the role of the JNA in July of 1991?
4 A. I believe that his view was shared with my own view and that of
5 the majority of people, and I --
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
8 MR. JORDASH:
9 Q. Could you repeat the last sentence of your answer, please.
10 A. I know that Milan Babic communicated, talked with, and consulted
11 with Ratko Mladic, if that is what you meant.
12 Q. Did Babic communicate with you any of those conversations?
13 A. I cannot remember right now. I think that once he talked about
14 this quarrel that he had had with Mladic regarding emblems. And as I've
15 already said, our people were practically allergic to the five-point star
16 and because of that they would not respond to calls for mobilisation from
17 the JNA.
18 Q. Page 52, Friday, the 12th of July, 1991. Mladic describes
19 members of the "National Guard Corps passing through Lelas and entering
20 the defence line in Kijevo" and noting that the "numerical strength of
21 the members of the MUP corps is growing, women are seen in Kijevo,"
22 across the page, "along with unidentified men. This is going outside the
23 framework of the agreement because three months ago there were 300 and
24 now there are 700 inhabitants."
25 Do you know what this reference relates to and do you have any
1 information on it?
2 A. This refers to the village of Kijevo, where there was set up a
3 police station of exclusively Croats in an area where there hadn't been
4 one before. This shows that the numbers increased, namely that there
5 were continued provocations of Serbian villages. Because to pass through
6 a Serbian village which was called, I believe, Civljane, you had to pass
7 through Kijevo. This also -- there was also harassment and maltreatment
8 and what have you, and that is why they were demands for the Kijevo unit
9 to be disarmed. But instead of that, the strength was increased. Later
10 there was even a parade, and Vladimir Seks, as vice-president of the
11 Croatian Assembly, came in a helicopter to support them in that
13 Q. The entry goes on to say:
14 "Problem of providing passage through Kijevo for workers on their
15 way to work because members of the MUP can stop a bus and capture
16 hostages. The same bus is also taken by members of the army and
17 inhabitants of Cetina."
18 Are you familiar with the events in Cetina?
19 A. Well, I heard general information, not by name. The Main Boards
20 named that it was a major problem and that those people were being
21 arrested and searched and harassed and that they were actually concerned
22 and apprehensive because they had to go to work to Knin every day and in
23 order to go to work they had to pass through Kijevo every day. So that
24 this was a cause of major concern among the people throughout Dalmatia.
25 MR. JORDASH: Could we have page 64, please.
1 Q. Page 64, as you'll see, relates to 15th of July, 1991, and Mladic
2 writes, in the third paragraph:
3 "That the JNA must ensure peaceful resolution of the crisis. In
4 our zone we can expect the situation to worsen, particularly in and
5 around Benkovac."
6 Did you observe the role of the JNA at this point in time and was
7 it consistent with Mladic's description or not?
8 A. Well, we expected them to behave in that way, but they did not
9 always conduct themselves in the way he has written. We expected them to
10 be more resolute in dealing with the situation, in other words.
11 Q. What do you mean by that? In which way were they not resolute in
12 dealing with the situation?
13 A. They did not disarm the paramilitary units which later provoked
14 much fiercer conflicts in which, in addition to JNA members, police
15 members as well as civilians perished, both on the Croatian and the
16 Serbian side.
17 Q. Were they acting on anyone's side at this point in time,
18 July of 1991, from what you could observe?
19 A. No. No, they were not on anyone's side. They were still
20 maintaining a neutral posture.
21 Q. Just so that we're clear: How do you know that?
22 A. Because they were not taking any actions, irrespective of the
23 provocations coming from the Croatian side which also involved wounded
24 and dead.
25 MR. JORDASH: Could we have next, please, diary 5596.
1 Q. While that's being found, let me just pick up on something you've
2 just said, Mr. Bosnic. "Because they were not talking any actions,
3 irrespective of the provocations coming from the Croatian side which also
4 involved wounded and dead." What were the nature of the provocations and
5 where were they?
6 A. Well, during the night they would be intercepting people,
7 searches, opening fire at the villages. As far as Kordun is concerned,
8 there were attempts of the National Guard Corps patrolling through
9 Serbian villages. And at the end of July, the first killings of Serbs --
10 of Serb civilians in Kordun also happened, so that the Serbs started
11 leaving the city of Slunj, in which they up to that point tried to go on
12 living. And because of that, Slunj became practically ethnically
13 cleansed or clean city without Serbs. And not far from Slunj is a
14 military testing ground where there was a JNA unit posted which reacted
15 only in November when their electricity supply was cut and their movement
16 hampered, and so on.
17 Q. How many men, women, and children of Serbian ethnicity left
19 A. Well, it is difficult to say now the exact number, but at a
20 minimum 500 would be the number.
21 Q. Where did they go?
22 A. They went to the villages, Serbian villages, in the municipality
23 of Slunj, such as Veljun, Perjasica, Primislje, Zecevaras [phoen], and
25 Q. When was this departure of Serbs from Slunj?
1 A. After the killings which took place. That was sometime in June,
2 I believe late June or early July. I cannot be sure. I believe it was
3 the beginning of July.
4 Q. Let's go to page 33 of this diary. And the entry we're going to
5 look at was written -- or, sorry, related to the 29th of August, 1991.
6 And it's a reference, as you can see, to an "agreement reached on the
7 28th of August, 1991, in Knin between the Knin corps commander,
8 Mr. Krpina, president of the Crisis Staff for the Central and
9 Northern Dalmatia, and the presidents of Drnis and Sibenik SO,
10 signatories of the agreement, is accepted."
11 Do you see that?
12 A. I do, yes.
13 Q. Do you know anything about this agreement?
14 A. I do not know the specifics. I only know that an agreement, a
15 truce, was signed. That's all I know.
16 Q. Do you know of the role of the JNA in relation to the agreement?
17 A. As far as I know, the role of the JNA was that of mediator. They
18 actually linked the two sides. They were the guarantor that the
19 agreement would indeed be implemented. And that, in fact, was the
21 MR. JORDASH: And can we go to page 324, please.
22 Q. 324 is an entry which relates to the 10th of November, 1991. And
23 perhaps if we go to the page before to get the context, 323. And Mladic,
24 underneath the heading "Neso," speaks about Babic and Djujic, and notes
25 that "the staff made a mistake and blocked the mobilisation."
1 And then there's further text before we go over the page. We can
2 see Mladic's view or I should say Mladic's writing, where he notes:
3 "Djujic irritates things to have everything go to the JNA. I'm
4 concerned that the five-pointed star of Babic does not later turn into a
6 Are you able to cast any light on that entry?
7 A. If this is Djujic who was chief of the TO in Babic's office, then
8 this means that all the persons who are under the TO command should not
9 go over to the JNA. Mladic, on the other hand, wanted everyone to be
10 under the competence of the JNA because of his fears that Babic's
11 five-pointed star may turn into a cockade and that the TO may turn
12 against the JNA if they continue pressing us with the five-pointed star
13 and the symbols that we wanted to abandon. We did not want a one-party
14 Yugoslavia; we wanted a democratic, multi-party Yugoslavia.
15 Q. Were you privy to any conversations at this point in time that
16 Mladic had with Babic, whether being there personally or having spoken to
17 Babic or anyone else?
18 A. I didn't attend the discussions that Babic had with Mladic. We
19 only had certain indications as to what the reasons for the lack of trust
20 were and what the relationship between Mladic and Babic was. At Kordun,
21 I did attend, occasionally, meetings of the TO, where representatives of
22 the JNA were in attendance as well.
23 Q. Did Mladic -- I beg your pardon. Did Babic speak to you about
24 his view of Mladic and the JNA in November of 1991?
25 A. Babic's view was that regardless of the objections we may have in
1 respect of the JNA, we did not have anyone else to rely upon, and that
2 this is what we should be guided by in our relations with the JNA, as a
3 necessary evil.
4 Q. You make mention there to Djujic being the "chief of the TO in
5 Babic's office" and, it seems a decision, that "persons who are under the
6 TO command should not go over to the JNA."
7 Did this have anything to do with Babic?
8 MS. MARCUS: Excuse me, could counsel please identify what he is
9 referring to. You make mention -- sorry, could we just have the
10 reference that you're referring to.
11 MR. JORDASH: Page 73, line 4 to 6.
12 Q. Let me repeat the question for you, Mr. Bosnic.
13 You make mention to Djujic being the "chief of the TO in Babic's
14 office" and, it seems a decision, that "persons who are under the TO
15 should not go over to the JNA."
16 Did this have anything to do with Babic?
17 A. Yes. We believed that this was a way in which we would begin the
18 process of setting up our own army, that is to say, the army of the
19 Krajina. And that at that stage, and such was the law, we were
20 subordinated to the JNA. We thought that we should abide by this
21 situation, although there were people out in the field who were opposed.
22 Here they mention one Cubrilo who had already set up a Chetnik unit near
24 Q. When you say "we believed that this was a way in which we would
25 begin the process of setting up our own army," who's we?
1 A. Milan Babic and the SDS leadership.
2 Q. Did this have anything to do with Martic?
3 A. As far as I know, it didn't. Under the law, in times of war the
4 JNA is re-subordinated to the JNA, and in this case it would be to the
5 Army of the Krajina.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The police is
7 re-subordinated to the JNA.
8 MR. JORDASH:
9 Q. Did Babic take any steps to fulfill this aim of having your own
11 A. There was this one quite clumsy and failed attempt to set up the
12 King Peter's Guard, I think that's how it was called, in Kninsko Kosovo,
13 near Knin.
14 Q. Was there a resolution to this apparent dispute between Mladic
15 and Babic? Was Mladic able to subordinate the TO against Babic's wish?
16 A. Yes. Throughout Krajina up until Vance's Plan, the TO units as
17 well as all the police units were, before the commencement of military
18 operations, subordinated to the JNA, in other words, to their command,
19 complied with their orders, and implemented their plans.
20 Q. Did Babic ever make a contemporaneous complaint during this
21 process suggesting that this had anything to do with Stanisic or the
22 DB of Serbia?
23 A. I had known Mr. Babic for a long time and was in contact with him
24 after the war. He had never mentioned to me any sort of pressure or any
25 contacts he may have had with Mr. Jovica Stanisic nor did I ever see him
1 with Jovica Stanisic. I would travel with him to Belgrade often, and I
2 had never seen Jovica Stanisic before 1994 nor did he tell me that he had
3 been with Mr. Stanisic.
4 Q. Let's return to your statement, if we can.
5 MR. JORDASH: Could we have D313 on the screen, please.
6 Paragraph 73.
7 Q. Paragraph 73, you note that:
8 "Milan Babic was my friend but I cannot believe that he claimed
9 something," and it's been amended to "he claimed something like that. We
10 went through a lot together. But I can tell you what he said before
11 going to The Hague. He was trying to get some assistance from the
12 official authorities of Serbia as to how to approach The Hague but no one
13 cared or made any suggestions."
14 Did you have a conversation or a number of conversations with him
15 about this?
16 A. Yes. Since Milan Babic was not on good terms with Savo Strbac
17 from the Veritas documentation centre, it was Savo Strbac who informed
18 me, it was still in English, that Babic was going to be indicted, that in
19 fact he was in that indictment charged with a joint criminal enterprise.
20 I went with that piece of information to Babic, who asked me what it was
21 that he was supposed to do. I advised him to consult with the
22 authorities in Serbia, which was something that other individuals, common
23 friends, advised him to do. But none of the official organs of Serbia
24 wanted to receive him and advise him on the future steps or tell him what
25 was going to become of his family.
1 He was disappointed and ultimately said, somewhat brazenly as
2 well in disparaging terms, If I should be the one to fall, then let
3 everyone follow me. Or, in fact, he said, If I am to sink into that mud
4 pit, then let everyone else sink with me. This was the result of the
5 fact that nobody wanted to help him in Serbia as to what sort of a
6 defence he should mount.
7 Ever since he said that, I never saw him again until he appeared
8 in The Hague. I saw him on TV and reacted in writing to the statements
9 he made there.
10 Q. Let's go to paragraph 35 of your statement, and it concerns the
11 creation of Golubic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask a question in between.
13 You earlier said - I didn't fully understand that:
14 "... from the ... documentation centre, it was ..." and then a
15 word is missing "who informed me, it was still in English, that Babic was
16 going to be indicted, that in fact ..."
17 Could you give more -- a little bit more detail as to what you
18 learned and how you learned it.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received a phone call from
20 Savo Strbac, the director of the Veritas documentation and information
21 centre. I suppose that he obtained the document in The Hague because the
22 document was still in English. And it became obvious, on the basis of
23 this document, that Babic was in an indictment charged with joint
24 criminal enterprise.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see that document? because you say it was
1 still in English.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Savo Strbac made a copy and
3 asked me to take it to Mr. Milan Babic because he was not on good terms
4 with Babic, and I did as he asked me to do.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And was it then Mr. Strbac who told you what was in
6 the document, or ...
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Savo Strbac told me that
8 Milan Babic was in that joint indictment and asked me if I wanted to be
9 the one to take it to him.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
13 Q. Now, I want to just ask you a little about your knowledge of
14 Golubic. In paragraph 35, you note that:
15 "Somewhere at the end of the May or the beginning of June 1991,
16 part of the youth volunteered to be sent to be trained in Knin."
17 Which youth volunteered?
18 A. This was Serbian youth. They were young men who manned village
20 Q. You note in the same paragraph that:
21 "The young people from Kordun went to Golubic in late
22 May of 1991 ..."
23 "There were two groups who were sent from Kordun and Banija ."
24 When the people from Kordun went to Golubic in late May of 1991,
25 had Golubic opened at this point?
1 A. I think that it had just opened at that point. Some of them
2 joined the first group as soon as it was opened, and others followed in
3 the second group. So throughout its existence there were two groups of
4 people who went to Golubic for training from Kordun, as far as I know.
5 Q. When did Golubic close?
6 A. When the second round of training was completed. It was sometime
7 in June or July, I'm not sure. It had to do with the conflict between
8 Babic and Captain Dragan.
9 Q. Are you able to say, just for clarification, how many groups were
10 trained at Golubic and what kind of numbers of people were trained?
11 A. Well, if 30 people went there from Kordun in two groups, one of
12 which had 20 of them, the other 10 or vice-versa, so I suppose if you
13 look at the entire area of Krajina it might amount to some 200 or
14 300 people, but I can't give you the exact number.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I'd like to seek one matter clarified.
16 You are talking about volunteers. Now, that always confuses me a
17 bit. Volunteers can, as far as I understand, be persons who make
18 themselves available for a certain job, but sometimes reference to
19 volunteers is also to persons who do something without being paid for it.
20 Now, what kind of volunteers are we talking about? Are we talking about
21 those who go somewhere without being paid for what they're doing or are
22 we talking about those who voluntarily made themselves available but were
23 remunerated for their activities?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time of departure, the issue
25 of remuneration was not mentioned at all. They went voluntarily in order
1 to undergo training and share their knowledge upon their return. Whether
2 they were paid ultimately is not something that I know, but I don't think
3 so. But the understanding was not that they would be paid upon
4 completing their training.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And was the understanding that they would be paid
6 for any follow-up activities after the training?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, none of them went there to
8 begin with in order to be paid ultimately.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Whether they finally were paid either for the
10 training or for what they did after they were trained, you do not know;
11 is that a correct understanding of your testimony?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that they were not paid
13 during their training. Whether they received something later on, I don't
14 know. I know that when they returned, nobody had received any pecuniary
15 remuneration during their training there. That's what I mean; they
16 didn't receive money.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Did they receive anything else?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They received their uniforms,
19 bearing the insignia "Milicija Krajina," "Krajina Police," and we called
20 them "Martic's Police."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Those were active as members of the Martic's Police,
22 were they usually paid for their activities?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my knowledge, not in
25 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by "not in Kordun"?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew these individuals and I can
2 speak for them. I cannot speak to the other areas because I was not in
3 contact with them.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. JORDASH:
7 Q. When the recruits or those who had been trained in Golubic
8 returned to Kordun, what did they do? What were their tasks or duties
10 A. Their tasks were to continue manning village guards and to train
11 other young individuals, to train them the skills that they themselves
12 had acquired. All the while, the police force which was operational in
13 Kordun and Banija and which had still been in contact with Zagreb would
14 be replaced by them. This did not happen because in late June or July
15 the police from the municipalities of Kordun and Banija severed all ties
16 with Zagreb and recognised Martic as the secretary as well as the police
17 of the SAO Krajina.
18 Q. Do you know how long the men from Kordun were trained at Golubic?
19 How long did the training last?
20 A. 15 days, I believe. But I'm not sure.
21 Q. Do you know what they were trained to do during those 15 days
22 or so?
23 A. They were trained how to handle side-arms. They had fitness
24 training. They were trained how to move about as a group and communicate
25 with gestures rather than voices. They were told that this was the way
1 legionaires were trained, this because they were trained by
2 Captain Dragan.
3 Q. Just to be as clear as possible: What was it then that
4 distinguished -- or what was it, in additional to those skills or the
5 training received by the police generally -- let me start that again.
6 What did they learn in addition to what was normal police
7 training at that time?
8 A. Well, I don't know. Simply how to use automatic weapons in
9 combat and how to get by in combat. I don't think there was anything
10 else that they were doing according to what they told me. I didn't
11 attend the training.
12 Q. And the object and purpose of the training was what, as you
13 understood it? What was it they were being trained for and for what
15 A. To be the nucleus of the units that were supposed to be ready to
16 stand up to the Croatian National Guard and the Croatian police. When
17 the police in Kordun and Banija agreed to join Knin and to -- rather than
18 Zagreb, they agreed to becoming scouts, reconnaissance units, for the
19 Krajina units.
20 Q. Did Golubic open again after its closure in, when you think,
21 June or July of 1991?
22 A. Yes. Golubic was re-opened in 1992, in September roughly. At
23 any rate, in the second half of 1992 Golubic was opened as a police
24 school for the training of ordinary policemen.
25 MR. JORDASH: Could we have 65 ter 1557, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I am --
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: The document is reported to me as not being in
4 e-court, Mr. Jordash. I suggest that you take 14 hours to find it. And
5 meanwhile --
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Because we have to adjourn for the day.
8 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You are almost at three hours at this moment. So if
10 you said you would need four to four and a half hours, could I then take
11 it that you try to finish at the first break or might need a bit more?
12 MR. JORDASH: I think I can finish by the first break.
13 JUDGE ORIE: By the first break. That would be appreciated.
14 Meanwhile, Mr. Bosnic, I would like to instruct you, because
15 we'll adjourn for the day, I'd like to instruct that you should not speak
16 with anyone about your testimony, whether that is testimony you have
17 given today or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow or
18 perhaps the day after tomorrow. We'd like to see you back tomorrow
19 morning at 9.00.
20 We adjourn. And we'll resume tomorrow morning, the 13th of July,
21 at 9.00 in this same Courtroom II. We stand adjourned.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of
25 July, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.