1 Wednesday, 5 October 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-03-69-T, The Prosecutor versus Jovica
9 Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 If there are no procedural matters to be raised, then I would
12 like to ask the usher to escort the witness in the courtroom.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Novakovic. May I remind you that
15 You're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given
16 yesterday that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
17 the truth.
18 Mr. Jordash, are you ready to continue your examination .
19 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 WITNESS: RADENKO NOVAKOVIC [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Novakovic?
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. I have approximately 30 minutes of questions for you before
2 other parties will want to ask you some questions.
3 Could we have P2448 on the screen, please.
4 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, item number 11 in the chart.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I believe this document is presently
7 under seal. However, in light of the Chamber's ruling with respect to
8 the protective measures for the witness, I did review the document
9 further and believe it would be okay to change its status to public.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Any response to ...?
11 MR. JORDASH: In principle, we don't object. It's -- the only
12 query I would have is whether there is a separate issue of protective
13 measures for documents as contrasted with the protective measures for
14 the -- any state security personnel.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The bottom line is the same.
16 Mr. Weber, perhaps it would be wiser for the Chamber just to
17 review it as well, not that there's any distrust as far as you have
18 reviewed, but we have our own responsibility and we will have to look at
19 whether there are any BIA sources, BIA operatives, or any locations. But
20 we'll certainly pay attention to change the status, as you suggested.
21 Mr. Bakrac, any observations in this respect?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed. For the time being, the
24 document remains under seal.
25 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Novakovic, this, as I think you told us yesterday, is an
2 Official Note of an interview which you conducted. And if we go to page
3 4 of the English and 4 of the B/C/S, we can see your name against the
4 signature. And I presume that's your signature; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, I think it's agreed again between us and the Prosecution
7 that you interviewed Milan Lukic and the interview was conducted properly
8 without coercion. You agree with that?
9 A. No, no.
10 Q. When you say "no, no," you're saying no, it was not conducted --
11 well, were all formalities carried out in relation to interviewing
12 Milan Lukic? Was it conducted properly from your perspective?
13 A. Absolutely. All the legal regulations were observed and all the
14 preconditions were met to conduct that interview with him in the way I
16 Q. And if we go to page 4, or stay on page 4, at the end of -- or
17 halfway down the page you offer an opinion; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, yes. At the beginning of item 4.
19 Q. And was that normal procedure for an operative following an
20 operative interview, or -- to offer an opinion as to the veracity or
21 reliability of the account offered?
22 A. Absolutely. That part of the document always reflects the
23 opinion of the operative officer, how the interviewee had based during
24 the interview, and how the operative views the veracity, the truthfulness
25 of the source. You can't at the moment conduct all the checks as to what
1 is true or not, but you can state your opinion on how the interviewee
2 behaved and how truthful he was.
3 Q. Could I take you, please, to page 2 of the English and page 2 of
4 the B/C/S, one-third of the page down where it begins: "During the long
5 interview the source stated the following ..." the account that then
6 follows, was this a verbatim account or a summary of what Milan Lukic
8 A. This is a primary document, the one they're looking at. And it
9 was drafted based on an audio recording because the whole interviewee was
10 recorded. At the beginning of the interview I warned Milan Lukic that it
11 would be recorded and he had nothing to object to. And I state under
12 quotation marks what Milan Lukic said, based on the audio recording.
13 The interview was very long, one whole day. We started in the
14 morning and ended in the evening, and that's why we keep the audio
15 recording. In case we needed some more information from him, we would be
16 able to continue that interview.
17 Q. Previous translation continues] ... is it a verbatim account or
19 A. This is verbatim what he said and what I took from the audio
20 recording and wrote down in the document.
21 Q. Do I understand that to mean it's verbatim but it's not the whole
22 of what he said during the day?
23 A. Correct. You put in the document only what you think has any
24 operative importance from that interview. Because there was a lot of
25 talking there. He's not a very forthcoming person. And during the
1 interview, it takes time to get him to talk about subjects that we were
2 interested in.
3 Q. Okay. Now, halfway down that page Lukic claimed that he was
4 trained by Pupe and Zoran, Red Berets, Knindzas in Ilok.
5 Did he ever claim that he was trained by Serbian DB in Ilok?
6 A. Well he said exactly what's written here. I was not familiar
7 with that subject, so I quoted him in that part.
8 Q. If he had said that he was trained by the Serbian DB, would you
9 have been interested in that?
10 A. You know, I wouldn't show any interest, but I would certainly
11 write it down.
12 Q. Thank you?
13 MR. JORDASH: Could Mr. Novakovic please be given 1D01072.
14 Q. We'll give you a paper copy because I know that's your
15 preference, Mr. Novakovic.
16 MR. JORDASH: And it's in Your Honours' chart at 12.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
18 MR. WEBER: Just as a reminder, I believe the Stanisic Defence
19 has prepared a copy of this document that's unredacted as the 65 ter
20 number .1. I don't know if we should be using that document.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the ruling of the Chamber was that the
22 unredacted copy should be used and should be admitted into the evidence;
23 whereas, at the end of the case, the redacted copies would be filed.
24 That's ... in order to -- not to be overwhelmed by various versions of
1 Now we have access to it the unredacted copy, to the extent the
2 document is shown to the public, of course, we could use a redacted
3 version, although not the version that is or will be admitted into
4 evidence, and I think it would be preferable if the witness, when he has
5 a hard copy, that he gets the original, unredacted version.
6 Is that what he received?
7 Mr. Weber, that's ...
8 MR. WEBER: That would be fine, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Let's proceed.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer].
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, Madam Registrar asks to be -- to be
13 informed in detail about which is the unredacted copy, because that's the
14 one which will receive a number and which will be admitted into evidence;
15 whereas the unredacted copies have you to deal with that a filing at a
16 later stage.
17 So please provide Madam Registrar with the exact number of the
18 unredacted version.
19 MR. JORDASH: I'm afraid that we've got the redacted version on
20 the screen. I'm afraid that Mr. Novakovic has got the redacted version
21 as a hard copy.
22 So perhaps if we could have the unredacted version on the screen?
23 Q. And I am afraid, Mr. Novakovic, you you'll have to --
24 JUDGE ORIE: And not to be shown to the public.
25 MR. JORDASH: Not to be shown to the public?
1 JUDGE ORIE: And does Madam Registrar know which number?
2 Yes, there we are?
3 MR. JORDASH:
4 Q. You have looked at this document before, Mr. Novakovic, and
5 you've made some general comments in the chart at number 12. And I just
6 want to pick up on one issue, which is the issue of the reaction of the
7 VRS to the -- or VRS leadership to the arrest of Milan Lukic?
8 If we look at page 2 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S, we
9 can see there an account about Karadzic coming to Visegrad together with
10 General Gvero by helicopter. And in paragraph 2, you'll see the
11 following: "At this meeting" -- this is the meeting between Karadzic and
12 representatives of Gorazde, Visegrad, Rogatica and Rude municipalities.
13 [As read] "At the meeting Dr. Karadzic said that a Drina Corps
14 would be formed and that the candidates for its commander were three
15 persons from Serbia, of whom one was a general. He said that because of
16 the situation a platoon of Milenko" - and it says here "Kasaric" but if
17 one looks at the original, I think it says "Karisika" - "special police
18 unit which would arrive from Zvornik and would say in Visegrad."
19 He said that the decision had been made to replace
20 Dr. Dusko Kornjaca and he was to blame for the situation in
21 Kanicija [phoen] and so forth.
22 Dr. Karadzic appears to, from this account, have control of
23 Karisik; is that something that you're familiar with?
24 A. As far as I remember that time, the unit of the special police
25 was under the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska, I suppose.
1 Q. I just want to be clear. As far as you were aware at that time,
2 Karasic's unit was under the command of the Ministry of Interior of
3 Republika Srpska. Did it have anything to do with Serbia, as far as you
4 were aware?
5 A. It certainly didn't. Because, at that time, it was a separate
6 state. It happened on the territory of a different state.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, just going further down to the page to the
8 bottom of page 2 in the English and the top of page 3 of the B/C/S.
9 There's an account there of Milan Lukic's father rallying
10 soldiers in front of the command in Visegrad and calling out to the
11 commander of the Tactical Group 1, Vinko Pandurevic, by saying, "You
12 assigned him this task, that is, Milan Lukic, and just as you assigned
13 him, now you get him out. If there is treason on your part, I shall kill
14 you personally. After this, the soldiers went their own ways, after
15 Pandurevic calmed them down by telling them this was an accidental arrest
16 and that Milan Lukic would be released. Unofficially, during
17 Dr. Karadzic's visit, I heard that he personally called President
18 Milosevic about Lukic?"
19 Are you able to comment on these remarks in relation to the
20 reaction of the VRS leadership to the arrest by the Serbian MUP of
21 Milan Lukic?
22 A. As you see from the document, I'd just like to note that I talked
23 about this with the employer who is covering the territory nearer to
24 Visegrad, and the sources we used were his sources. As the source
25 mentions, after the -- after Dr. Karadzic left this meeting outside the
1 building of the electrical company, many parents were gathered there,
2 including the parents of Milan Lukic and they protested on that occasion
3 against his arrest, and they were preparing a group or something to go
4 and free him, after which he said that Milan Lukic was arrested in a
5 state where law rules and if he is found to be innocent he will be
6 released and given honours, but he also said that their approach was
7 wrong, even though they were parents. It was inappropriate for them to
8 react in that way.
9 So what was stated here was stated by the source, and in the
10 words of the source, he was present at the incident itself.
11 Q. You said at the beginning of the answer to that question: "I'd
12 just like to note that I talked about this with the employer who is
13 covering the territory nearer to Visegrad."
14 What did you mean by you talked to the employer? Who is the
16 A. I was saying I talked to my colleague about this. And I talked
17 to Milan Lukic in the presence of that colleague, because that colleague
18 had briefed me about Milan Lukic in the first place and the topics we
19 would discussing with him. He covered that territory. I did not deal
20 with that at the time. And these issues concerning Milan Lukic was under
21 the 3rd Administration. It was the territory of a different state, so
22 other employ employees, other colleagues covered that area and those
23 kinds of activities.
24 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you to have a look at 1D05068.
25 MR. JORDASH: I think we have a similar problem with redaction.
1 We have an unredacted copy for the witness to look at.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber?
3 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, just for the record, I just wanted to
4 reiterate our standing objection to the documents that are not presently
5 on the Stanisic exhibit list.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is on the record.
7 MR. JORDASH:
8 Q. You've seen this document before, Mr. Novakovic?
9 MR. JORDASH: It's at, Your Honours, page 4 and item 14 of the
11 Q. Let me take you, Mr. Novakovic, to the first page. And we can
12 see a discussion there about the kidnapping of 17 citizens in Sjeverin
13 municipality of Priboj, in the area of municipality Rudo, in the village
14 Mioce. The security situation in municipality it's noted in Priboj is
15 rapidly or has rapidly got worse. The 2nd of November, 1992.
16 Is that something you can comment on?
17 A. From the document, one can see that. I saw that. The document
18 was shown to me by the Defence team. It was written --
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm asking about whether you
20 have any independent knowledge, independent from the document?
21 A. Well, he talks about certain aspects of the security situation in
22 the area of Priboj that resulted from the kidnapping of the people from
23 Sjeverin. So he says it is disrupted and the interethnic situation in
24 that area became more complex. And from this, we can see that even
25 before the arrest of Milan Lukic, by the state leadership of Yugoslavia,
1 sent a minister for human rights to that area --
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...?
3 A. -- to try to calm down that situation.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now you see then in the fourth paragraph
5 reference to a strong PJM unit from the MUP being sent to Sjeverin to
6 strengthen a VJ unit. Do you know about --
7 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, Mr. Weber is on his feet.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
9 MR. WEBER: Prosecution objects as to foundation. This witness
10 has been asked whether or not he has any independent knowledge about the
11 document from what is in front of him. The witness then did not squarely
12 answer that question. Instead reiterated a description of what's in the
13 document. We don't need the document itself to be used with the witness
14 if we're asking him about knowledge he has independent of it. This is
15 leading and there is no foundation at this time for the witness's
16 knowledge of what's being asked?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
18 MR. JORDASH: Yesterday the witness testified to the sending of a
19 PJM unit to the region, in order to safe-guard Muslims, and that's what
20 I'm asking the witness about, whether there is correspondence between
21 what he said yesterday and what account is given in this document.
22 JUDGE ORIE: There is certainly a leading element in that. If a
23 witness talks about A and you give him a document, say is there a link.
24 There is, of course, a clear suggestion that there might be a link. So,
25 If do you it in the most non-leading way possible, I would not stop you.
1 MR. JORDASH:
2 Q. Just put aside the document and listen to my question for a
3 moment, Mr. Novakovic. Put aside the document, Mr. Novakovic?
4 The PJM unit you mentioned yesterday being sent to the territory
5 covered by Uzice, what was it sent to do, who was it sent by, and where
6 was it operative?
7 A. T was sent by the Ministry of Interior, exactly to the area of
8 Sjeverin to protect the Muslim population who were intimidated by this
9 kidnapping. They started withdrawing from that area towards Priboj and
10 it was sent to guarantee security, to provide reinforcements in that
11 area. Sjeverin, there was a border unit of the army, and I know that in
12 that period there occurred not exactly a clash but a difference of
13 opinion because the army was against arresting Milan Lukic, and it was
14 the military units who were in charge of securing the border; whereas,
15 MUP units were there to protect law and order. And from this text, we
16 see that members of the MUP also took into custody a military patrol.
17 It was actually the special police unit that took into custody a
18 military police unit who were looting the houses of Muslims who had fled
19 to Priboj.
20 So these units came there precisely to provide better security to
21 Muslim citizens. Not long after that, in Prijepolje, which is not far
22 from Priboj, special police units staff was established precisely because
23 interethnic relations had been so disrupted by this kidnapping in this
24 Uzice part of Sandzak.
25 Q. Thank you for your answer.
1 When you speak of a military police unit, which military
2 formation did that police unit derive from?
3 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphones could be lifted a
4 little bit, please. Thank you.
5 A. [Previous translation continues] ... talking about the military
6 patrol from that border army unit?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could your microphone be a bit higher.
8 MR. JORDASH:
9 Q. Sorry, we didn't receive your last answer?
10 To whom did the military police unit belong?
11 A. Do you mean the military unit?
12 Q. In your last answer you mentioned [Overlapping speakers] ...?
13 A. The military patrol? You mean -- oh. What I said was that the
14 MUP units took into custody a military patrol. That is, a patrol that
15 patrols the border area of Sjeverin, and it belongs to the Army of
17 Q. Thank you. Just turning to page 2 of this document and the
18 first -- sorry, page 2 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S. If you
19 look at the paragraph:
20 [As read] "The behaviour of Yugoslavia army's border units was
21 highly incorrect and unprofessional one. The day Lukic was arrested some
22 individuals from VJ unit which was protected Sjeverin openly threatened
23 to use arms against MUP. Among soldiers there were a lot of those who
24 used to be in paramilitary formations or they had some relatives within
25 those units.
1 "Today the members of MUP were taken into custody ... military
2 patrol from Sjeverin ...," and so on.
3 How did you learn about this incident? What's the source of your
5 A. The source of my knowledge in this particular case is this
6 particular piece of information. But I know that people who worked in
7 the territory, they came to the centre. They talked about those
8 incidents, and it is from them that I learned of what was going on in the
9 area of Sjeverin.
10 Q. Let me take you to another subject just briefly. Pauk.
11 Sorry, before we get to Pauk, let me have a look at 1D05062. And
12 it's in the chart at 6.
13 Now, this payment list.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber?
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, just have caution just in case there's
16 names of other individuals in here. If there is any way that we could
17 please ask that it not be broadcast to the public.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
19 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, that was remiss of me.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The document not to be shown to the public.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. JORDASH:
23 Q. Mr. Novakovic, I'm just going to ask you about this document in a
25 First of all, in 1994, were you asked to go to work outside of
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And who requested that you go to work outside of Serbia; and
4 where were you asked to go?
5 A. The leadership of the service and my chief of service that I
6 worked for requested that I go and assist the service of the Republic of
7 Serbian Krajina due to the fact that in the western past of the
8 Republic of Serbian Krajina, there were some cases of unrest. I
9 volunteered to go together with two colleagues of mine, the same ones
10 that you can see in the document.
11 We were told that we would be involved in some
12 counter-intelligence work in the area, in order to step up the level of
13 security in that part of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
14 Q. Did this have anything to do with Operation Pauk?
15 A. Before my departure and my stint of over a month there, that
16 operation was never mentioned under that name. The only thing that was
17 said was that we would be dispatched there to assist the colleagues in
18 Republic of Serbian Krajina in Kordun and Banija and that we would be
19 dealing with counter-intelligence support for that area.
20 Q. Let me then take you -- did you go there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... did you first arrive; and
23 what did you do upon your arrival?
24 A. First, I went from Uzice to Belgrade. I reported to the
25 2nd Administration there.
1 Q. From the 2nd -- go on, sorry?
2 A. And together with the other two colleagues, we spent a whole day
3 in an office. We were there till that evening before the departure. At
4 that time there seemed to have been a lack of organisation or, at least,
5 that was my impression.
6 Q. Mr. Novakovic, I want to move forward just to deal with this
8 I want to -- I'm interested in what happened when you arrived in
9 the region. Where did you go to?
10 A. When I arrived in the region, I first arrived in Petrova Gora. I
11 spent two days there, and from there, I went to Vojnic, and from Vojnic,
12 I went to Slunj. I went to the shooting round of the technical military
13 centre. That's where I was billeted, together with the two colleagues of
15 Q. Who did you report to, if anyone, in Petrova Gora?
16 A. In Petrova Gora, I arrived there by bus, from Belgrade.
17 Q. Who did you report to when you arrived in Petrova Gora? Did you
18 report to anyone in Petrova Gora?
19 A. I arrived Petrova Gora, and I was billeted in a facility where we
20 spent two days without talking to anybody. We did not have any
21 communication with anybody until the meeting that took place on the 8th
22 of September.
23 Q. Where was the meeting on the 8th of September?
24 A. That meeting was held in Petrova Gora on the 8th of September.
25 Q. Are you sure it was the 8th of September?
1 A. It wasn't the 8th of September. It was either the 8th or the 9th
3 Q. Who was at the meeting?
4 A. The chief of the state security sector, Mr. Jovica Stanisic, and
5 Franko Simatovic attended the meeting, together with the representatives
6 of the service of the Serbian Army of Krajina, the service of the state
7 security of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, the MUP of the Republic of
8 Serbian Krajina and there were also the three of us who represented the
9 State Security Service of Serbia.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
11 MR. WEBER: Based on the people that are being referred to now,
12 this is something that could be of particular importance. We just would
13 ask where did Mr. Jordash, the Stanisic Defence give us notice of a
14 meeting containing this? Because we do not find it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
16 MR. JORDASH: The summary notes that the witness was sent to Pauk
17 by Jovica Stanisic from 1994 to 1995. He will describe his tasks and
18 explain that he reported to Jovica Stanisic but usually to the DB
20 It's right we haven't actually said there was a particular
21 meeting, but we would say it is implicit in that summary, that there is
22 contact between --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's call this the optimistic view, isn't it.
24 MR. JORDASH: Well, I don't --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, specifically meetings, specific meetings with
1 these participants, of course, might be something that should not be
2 implicitly referred to but perhaps explicitly. Isn't it?
3 MR. JORDASH: Well, we didn't regard the meeting as particularly
4 significant [Overlapping speakers] ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
6 MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers] ... Inasmuch as it could
7 have been a telephone call, it could have been a radio message. It
8 simply [Overlapping speakers] ... the witness is going to describe --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you have got an answer to your question.
10 What next?
11 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, our position would be that that notice
12 is insufficient because of who was involved. Also, we would like to
13 remind the Chamber: We did not receive a proofing note, we did not
14 receive a statement. If Mr. Jordash, clearly by his question,
15 specifically knew and has met with this witness prior to the testimony to
16 bring up a specific meeting. We are prejudiced by lack of information
17 like that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you like to have that put on the record
19 and then you will see how you will proceed. Is that well understood?
20 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
22 MR. JORDASH:
23 Q. You mentioned the service of the --
24 MR. JORDASH: Just if I could have a moment.
25 Q. What was the -- what happened at the meeting?
1 A. That was the first time anybody explained the reason for me and
2 my colleagues being there.
3 The meeting was chaired by Mr. Jovica Stanisic, and he told us
4 that the meeting had been organised together security and intelligence
5 segments of the services of the Serbian Army of Krajina, the MUP, and the
6 state security. And the aim of the meeting was to unify all the
7 intelligence about the goings on in the territory [Realtime transcript
8 read in error "Territorial Defence"] and stepping up the security level
9 in Krajina. The security was threatened by the refugees from the
10 Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia who arrived in the
11 Republic of Serbian Krajina. As a result of that, the security situation
12 was bad.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have a problem
14 with the interpretation, page 18, line 23.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Even if have you a problem with the interpretation
16 could you wait until the interpretation stops before raising this matter.
17 You have a problem with page 18, line 23.
18 Could you tell us what your problem is?
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] An institution was referred to,
20 or, rather what was recorded was not mentioned by the witness himself.
21 The name of the institution as recorded in the transcript was not
22 mentioned by the witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So you didn't hear that he was -- and I take it that
24 it's, then, Territorial Defence which in your view was --
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- not mentioned. Now it is on the transcript. I
2 think we should review that, whether the transcript and the translation
3 is correct in this respect, and whether your ears, Mr. Petrovic, are
4 better than the ears of others in this courtroom.
5 Could we ask the witness to repeat the answer. You said the aim
6 of the meeting was to unify all the intelligence. And could you then
7 tell us what you after that said. To unify all the intelligence
8 about ...
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To unify the entire intelligence
10 about the security situation in the territory with refugees from the
11 Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.
13 MR. JORDASH: Thank you. Could we have on the screen D447. I
14 just want to look very briefly at the map.
15 Q. Now, we -- you confirmed that these are the -- these were the
16 locations of the refugee camps.
17 First of all, are you able to give an assessment as to how many
18 people were in these refugee camps at the time you were in the region?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
20 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'm not sure that accurately states the
21 testimony - I'm checking right now - as to whether or not he said all of
22 them were refugee camps, those locations.
23 MR. JORDASH: I'll clarify.
24 Q. What -- which of these, if any, were refugee camps,
25 Mr. Novakovic?
1 A. Refugee camps were in Batnoga, Turanj. Of those that are on the
3 Q. How many people were in Batnoga and Turanj?
4 A. Batnoga.
5 Q. How many people in Batnoga?
6 A. Look, the international media referred to some 20- to 30.000
7 people in those camps. However, from what I saw, I would say that there
8 were between 15 and 20.000 people there who had fled from Western Bosnia.
9 It was impossible to establish the exact number because the
10 situation changed daily. Every day new people came to the camp and
11 overnight some people left the camp and returned to their original
12 Western Bosnian territory. And that was the main problem at the time.
13 Likewise, the media also referred to as many as 25.000 refugees
14 in the refugee camp in Turanj. I myself never saw as many in that area.
15 Q. Are you able to give an assessment of how many in that area?
16 A. In Batnoga, you mean.
17 Q. No, Turanj.
18 A. No, I can't. I didn't spend any considerable time there.
19 What I was saying was that the estimates were the same for both
20 of these camps. I actually never went there.
21 Q. Okay. Are you able to indicate the conditions of the refugees
22 and the conditions of the camps?
23 A. Let me tell you, when I arrived in that area from my colleagues
24 from the Republic of Serbian Krajina and as I told you, we were billeted
25 in Slunj, I was astounded. Batnoga is not a village. It's not a
1 location. Actually those were 12 hangars that had been used by the
2 Agrokomerc company from Kladusa and the population lived there in very
3 hard condition. My first impression that still lingers with me was when
4 I saw hundreds of women sitting around those hangars cleaning their
5 hair -- each other's heads from lice. This was a terrible sight. In
6 other words, they were billeted in the hangars that had been previously
7 been used by the Kladusa-based Agrokomerc, and I believe that that
8 company had used those hangars to raise chicken there. But the most
9 important thing for them was that they had roof over their heads because
10 they had to flee from Kladusa and Western Bosnia because of war
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, there is some confusion.
13 What you said in your last answer, is that all about Blatnoga, or
14 that's at least what I read, Batnoga, I don't know which of the two it
15 is, you're describing the situation there.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The refugee camp,
17 Batnoga, that's where refugees were billeted after having fled
18 Western Bosnia.
19 JUDGE ORIE: When you earlier said that you actually never went
20 there, you were referring to Turanj; is that correct?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never entered Turanj. With
22 my group, I stayed in Slunj, and I was in charge of going ...
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you went to Batnoga, and you never went to
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MR. JORDASH:
3 Q. Now, these refugees, these Muslim refugees from the
4 Autonomous Province of Bosnia, you were told at the meeting with Stanisic
5 that they presented a security risk and your job was to help coordinate
6 the intelligence in relation to that.
7 What was the security risk as you were told or as you perceived
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
10 MR. WEBER: Could I please just have the transcript reference
11 where he said exactly that, that the -- did he discuss the intelligence,
12 but relating to the refugees being the risk.
13 I see a general reference to something that could be considered
14 that, but I object to the form of the question as leading based on the
15 vague reference on page 18 at the end.
16 MR. JORDASH: It's not a vague reference. It says:
17 [As read] "... And the aim of the meeting was to unify all the
18 intelligence about the goings on in the territorial Defence and stepping
19 up the security level in Krajina. The security was threatened by the
20 refugees from the Autonomous ..."
21 I almost quoted verbatim.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If refugees were a threat to the security, they
23 could be considered to be a security risk.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. JORDASH:
1 Q. Mr. Novakovic, could you clarify what security risk or threat to
2 the security was presented by the refugees as you were told, or as you
3 perceived it?
4 A. When I was assigned to work with the team from Slunj, I was told
5 that the refugee camp in Batnoga was active every day. Which meant that
6 on a daily basis from the territory of Western Bosnia, which was under
7 the occupation of the 5th Corps, new refugees arrived, and then it also
8 happened that two, three, or five returned to Western Bosnia.
9 You can only imagine what risk that was. Firstly, they fled to
10 the Republic of Serbian Krajina and then they could move freely from the
11 Batnoga camp, especially towards the Turanj camp. I don't know why they
12 would do that, but I suppose they wanted to cross over to Croatia. But I
13 can say that a lot of people from Batnoga would actually move to the
14 Turanj camp. Let's say that the relative number was 40.000 but there
15 were even more refugees in the two centres, and they were a security
16 threat for that part of Krajina in Kordun because among those people who
17 had fled there were also members of the 5th Corps, former members of the
18 National People's Army of Western Bosnia, and in any case that was a
19 security threat for the then-Republic of Serbian Krajina and its
21 Q. All right, thank you. Now, I want to move swiftly through this
23 How long did you stay in the region conducting these tasks?
24 A. I came around the 4th of November and returned 15th, 15th
25 December to Belgrade.
1 Q. Did you ever see Stanisic again in the region during your stay?
2 A. I did not. I saw him that one time at the initial meeting, that
3 first meeting where it was -- which discussed why we were there, why we
4 had come, and it was a joint meeting of all security services, security
5 branches represented at that meeting.
6 Q. With the information you gathered, who did you report it to?
7 A. All the information we would collect on the ground, my two
8 colleagues and I, jointly with two representatives from the security
9 service of the Republic of Serbian Krajina were reported to the service
10 of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina. Our main task was to provide
11 this information to them because they collated it. And I would
12 occasionally inform Belgrade as well, namely, the 2nd Administration
13 through the secure communications we had at Petrova Gora.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, let's return to the payment list very quickly.
15 1D05062, not to be shown to the public.
16 You've told us -- as this document comes up you told us that the
17 two gentlemen on the list were the two that went with you to
18 Petrova Gora. Were you paid per diems during that time; and does this
19 reflect that?
20 A. Precisely. Any journey outside the centre entitled people to per
21 diem. This is how we received per diem, the two of us, and this is a
23 Q. In the chart at number 6 -- there's no need for you to turn it
24 up. But in the chart at number 6, you say that the payment had nothing
25 to do with you working for the PJM despite the fact it says that on the
2 Do you know why this document would note PJM, even though you
3 were not, as you've told us, working for the PJM?
4 A. I will try to explain, although I'm not a financial expert.
5 At the time when interethnic relations were disrupted in Sandzak,
6 in Kosovo, and elsewhere, the Presidency of the Republic of Serbia made a
7 decision that special police units, the PJM, would be paid in this way,
8 in per diem. In fact, they received salaries in their original units
9 when they were employed but when they would go into the field, on field
10 missions, to areas where security was disrupted, they would be paid in
11 the form of per diem, in keeping with that decision of the
12 Republic of Serbia, or, rather, its Presidency.
13 Since the State Security Service at that time was a sector of the
14 Ministry of Interior, the only way we could pay our operative officers
15 when they went outside in other areas of the Republic of Serbia or even
16 outside of Serbia, we were paid through this modality, which was a legal
17 modality for paying their costs and work on field missions. From this,
18 can you see that every centre, including the centre where I worked, had a
19 financial officer and a treasurer, who dealt with the financial aspects
20 of the operation in everything concerning the employees of that centre.
21 He was responsible to the centre but also on a parallel track to the
22 financial service of the administration. They would get a budget for a
23 month, and an operative worker could go and field missions within the
24 centre for his regular -- for -- for per diem from that budget. But if
25 he went outside the centre he would be paid per diem from the budget from
1 the administration in Belgrade, and that's -- that's what you can see
2 from this paper, that this was signed by an officer in Uzice.
3 Q. Which administration --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness, I
6 believe, answered the question that my learned friend Mr. Jordash has
7 just started asking, so I will refrain from comment.
8 I see that my learned friend is just about to ask this question.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then we would receive the answer twice.
10 That's the major risk we're in.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. JORDASH:
13 Q. Which administration was the -- was on the parallel track with
14 the administration from the centre.
15 Let me simplify that. You spoke about the issue arising from the
16 financial officer within the centre and then a parallel track with an
17 administration in Belgrade. Which administration in Belgrade?
18 A. The administration in charge of financial issues in Belgrade was
19 the 8th Administration of the DB at the time.
20 Q. Milan Prodanic. What was his position at the time of this
21 payment, this --
22 A. He was the chief of the 8th Administration.
23 Q. And just to wrap up this subject, what did this -- did this have
24 anything to do with Jovica Stanisic, the paying of per diems to you when
25 you were in the field, as far as you're aware?
1 A. I didn't understand you.
2 Q. Did the payment of per diems to you when you were in the field
3 have anything to do with Jovica Stanisic?
4 A. He was the chief of the service. He had nothing to do with this.
5 This is standard procedure whenever employees go outside their local
6 area. It had to do something with the chief of the financial
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I try to understand this answer.
11 From what I understand you were instructed to go there and it was
12 explained to you in a meeting with Jovica Stanisic what your task was.
13 And as a consequence, you are paid per diems by the budget, not your own
15 So to say he has got nothing to do with it, of course, he was not
16 involved in the -- that's what I understand from your answer. He was not
17 involved in paying out -- or administrative matters in relation to the
18 per diems. But what he had to do with it, that, as a consequence of your
19 assignment by him to go there, you received these per diems from this
20 central budget and not your own budget.
21 Is that well understood?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may just add to what I said
23 earlier to try to be clearer.
24 I've said I'm not an expert in financial matters but I'm able to
25 understand that much. At that time, by virtue of a decision made by the
1 Republic of Serbia, a certain fund was established for payments to the
2 members of the special police unit who went on field missions in the
3 territory of -- of the Republic of Serbia, and every member of the
4 State Security Service, that is, the special police unit, was paid from
5 that fund, whenever they went to other areas to assist.
6 In the same way, state security employees also went to other
7 areas, mainly border areas where local personnel had less experience and
8 people from the centre were sent there to assist them. But the state
9 security, being part of the MUP of Serbia, the only legal way of paying
10 these workers, was from this fund, and I suppose the service requested
11 funding for its own personnel from this fund. People who were in charge
12 of finances and logistics within the service were in the
13 8th Administration, which had its chief. He was in charge.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not seeking the details about how it was
15 organised but when you said it had nothing to with Stanisic, it was a
16 consequence of being assigned the task to go there that had as a
17 consequence that you were paid per diems out of this fund.
18 Is that ...
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are absolutely right. As a
20 staff member, I was assigned to those tasks, and that triggers certain
21 procedures in finance.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
23 MR. JORDASH: I note the time, Your Honour. I'm sorry it has
24 taken so long. I would like another ten minutes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take a break, I have one follow-up
2 Mr. Novakovic, you were asked whether being sent there was part
3 of Operation Pauk. Your answer was, "During the month or during the six
4 weeks I was there, that the operation was never mentioned by that name."
5 Now, my question to you is: Is -- apart from what was said
6 during this six weeks, can you tell us positively that it was not part of
7 Operation Pauk, or do you have any other knowledge which would either
8 link your presence to or not link your presence to Operation Pauk, if, at
9 least, you know what Operation Pauk stands for?
10 Perhaps we start with the last question: Are you familiar with
11 Operation Pauk and what it was?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned later on that the
13 Operation Pauk was a military operation to get the population that had
14 fled to return to the area of Western Bosnia.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now then we go to the other question.
16 When you learned about Operation Pauk, did you ever learn
17 anything about a link between your presence, your assignment to go there,
18 and Operation Pauk?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that while I was still
20 there. I realized that our activities, the activities of the
21 intelligence group Slunj were part of or serving the operation aimed at
22 getting the population from Western Bosnia to return. Because in talking
23 to the citizens in that area that crossed from one side to another all
24 the time, we found out what was going on, which forces were deployed
25 there on both sides, et cetera, what the movements were, and we informed
1 the State Security Service of Serbia regularly.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Did I then well understand your answer that your
3 presence there was related to the operation, which you later learned to
4 be Operation Pauk, but the name of which was never mentioned when you
5 were in that area?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I was there in early
7 December, I never once heard the moniker Pauk.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that doesn't answer my question. It is
9 only part of the question.
10 You never heard the operation being called Operation Pauk; but
11 what you later learned about Operation Pauk, this military operation,
12 that was the operation in relation to which you performed your tasks.
13 Is that well understood?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In the sense of collecting
15 intelligence. That was my assignment.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Then, Mr. Jordash, before we take the break, you made an
18 observation earlier in relation to 1D01072, which is the Official Note of
19 the 2nd of November. You said it was about a unit of -- in English
20 Kasarik's [sic] unit, Milenko Kasarik's unit, and then you referred to
21 your original and then you said in the original it says Kasarika. Would
22 it be possible that Milenka Kasarika is the genitive case for
23 Milenko Kasarik?
24 So you suggested there was something not correct, not accurate,
25 in the translation, because you said in the original it refers to
1 Kasarika, and I am just asking myself whether there was any inaccuracy or
2 whether you were reading in the original the genitive case, which, of
3 course, is translated into English as "Kasarik's".
4 MR. JORDASH: To be honest, I don't know the answer to that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you made a comment on the difference so,
6 therefore, I would expect you to have thought about it.
7 MR. JORDASH: Well, I think there is no dispute that this man
8 [Overlapping speakers] ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we can ask the interpreters is
10 "Milenka Kasarika" the genitive case of what is translated as
11 "Kasarik's". And I'm listening to the English channel at this moment.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, we're normally not allowed to
13 pronounce such judgements off the cuff. But it is.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I could ask you not about the original but
15 whether Milenka Kasarika is --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Genitive, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore there seems to be no inaccuracy in
18 "Kasarik" or "Kasarika".
19 MR. JORDASH: No, and I think there is no dispute that this is
20 Milenko Karisik, who is part of the Prosecution case.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Kasarik.
22 MR. JORDASH: I've only ever seen it written Karisik.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I may have made a mistake there. But at least we
24 don't have to further pay attention to the -- to the suggestion of there
25 being an inaccuracy.
1 MR. JORDASH: No. And in the absence of the witness I can
2 provide a little more context as to why I asked that question, if it will
3 assist Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing I was interested in your observation
5 that the original says whether it is Kasarik or Karisika, but it was
6 suggested there was an inaccuracy and appears to no [Overlapping
7 speakers] ...
8 MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers] ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's the only thing I wanted to deal with.
10 We take a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE:
14 Mr. Jordash, before we continue, and, Mr. Novakovic, our
15 apologies for the two or three or four minutes we might need with another
17 The Chamber would like to, first of all, briefly deal with the
18 urgent Stanisic Defence motion for video-conference link. We have
19 received a courtesy copy of the Prosecution's response. Has that been
20 filed, meanwhile or ...?
21 MR. GROOME: I believe it was filed last evening, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Last evening, okay.
23 Then we -- has the Simatovic Defence any response to this motion?
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honours. We leave it
25 to the Trial Chamber's judgement and to the parties. As far as we are
1 concerned, we have nothing against the videolink.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber has considered, as we now know, all
3 the submissions, because there is no Simatovic submission.
4 The Chamber grants the request for the use of video-conference
5 link to hear the evidence of Witness DST-052; reasons to follow.
6 And, Mr. Jordash, the timing of this request was not perhaps the
7 best, because you know exactly how much time it takes to prepare for a
8 videolink conference, and, at the same time, the medical condition seems
9 to be there already for quite a while.
10 MR. JORDASH: The problem has been that despite all best
11 endeavours by our investigator to contact the witness, the witness was
12 constantly responding with, I'm ill, I can't deal with this at the
13 moment. Which is why it is late. But we do apologise.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because it may cause some additional problems.
15 That is also the reason why we deal with it now, at this very moment, so
16 that the Registry is informed without delay and that the preparations for
17 the videolink can start from now on.
18 Mr. Jordash, are you ready to continue with your
20 MR. JORDASH: Yes, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Novakovic, Mr. Jordash will have some further
22 questions for you.
23 MR. JORDASH:
24 Q. I want to move very quickly through the last few subjects if I
25 can, Mr. Novakovic.
1 Just to complete the issue of your stay in and around Batnoga,
2 why did you leave the area?
3 A. During my stay in Batnoga, I was interested in information
4 relevant to the deterioration of the interethnic situation in that area.
5 I conducted a large number of interviews together with my colleagues from
6 the Republic of Serbian Krajina relating primarily to the security
7 situation, to the problems that increased security risks in that area. I
8 suppose that among that information there was also intelligence that was
9 new to the leadership of the service in Belgrade, and I received
10 instructions to leave the area urgently the very next day because my life
11 is at risk. I got that instruction through the service in the
12 Republic of Serbian Krajina; namely, that I and my two colleagues were to
13 return to Belgrade the very next day.
14 Q. Was it communicated to you why or from whom your life was at
16 A. No, I wasn't told that. The way I understood it was that the
17 only reason could be my field-work. To be honest my colleagues and
18 myself put in a lot of effort to -- into the daily reporting of the
19 events in the area. You know, the area was a mixed area and what we saw
20 in the field among the population of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and
21 the Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia, the two groups had years long
22 ties. They had developed all sort of relationships and there were
23 additional activities that compounded the risk, like smuggling and other
24 things. Whenever I went to the supply point, either me or my colleague,
25 I informed my superiors in Belgrade about that. I don't know whether
1 that increased the risk of my stay. In any case, the order was that I
2 should urgently return to Belgrade the following day, and I did that,
3 both myself and my two colleagues did that.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 A. On the 15th of December, we returned.
6 Q. In May and -- or May or June of 1995, were you called upon by
7 Jovica Stanisic to do anything? To conduct any particular task?
8 A. In 1995?
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
10 A. Through the centre chief, I was informed that I should set out
11 for the mission that had been given to me by the chief of the service. I
12 was supposed to go to the area of Visegrad, where I was supposed to take
13 part in dealing with the hostage crisis. That was the situation that
14 prevailed around that time in the territory of Republika Srpska.
15 Q. Did you speak to Stanisic directly; and what instructions were
16 given to you either directly or indirectly?
17 A. I received instructions indirectly from the centre chief. I was
18 to go on the mission and get in touch with the representatives of the
19 service of the Republika Srpska in Visegrad and they were supposed to
20 provide me with more information. Until the hostages were handed over, I
21 never saw or talked to Mr. Stanisic.
22 Q. Who were the hostages?
23 A. When I arrived in the territory of Visegrad, I got in touch with
24 the representatives of the state security of the Republika Srpska. We
25 were waiting for the hostages to arrive, and they were supposed to be
1 brought by the Herzegovina Corps of the Republika Srpska. According to
2 what I saw, there were about 30 or 40 members there. I don't know who
3 they belonged to exactly, but most of them belonged to the Ukrainian
4 contingent. Some of them were Spaniards, i.e., belonging to the Spanish
5 contingent of UNPROFOR. And I'm not sure whether the rest were French.
6 Talking from this time distance, it's hard to remember.
7 Q. Did you do anything in relation to the hostages? What was your
9 A. My task was to take them over. I had a bus with a driver from
10 the secretariat of the interior. My task was to get in touch with the
11 representatives of the service of the Republika Srpska. They were
12 supposed to hand -- mediated in the hand-over of the hostages from the
13 Army of Republika Srpska. My duty was to put them on the bus and take
14 them across the territory of the Republika Srpska, up to Zvornik, i.e.,
15 up to the point where they would leave the territory of the
16 Republika Srpska and enter the territory of Serbia. The situation in
17 Visegrad was not really normal. People in uniforms had been brought to
18 Visegrad and we could see that they belonged to the various contingents
19 of UNPROFOR, that they were of different ethnicities. And they told me,
20 "They're yours, take them." And I said, "I can't do that. I have to
21 make a list. How can I take over the people without their names?" And I
22 remember that there the situation was very tricky and the name of the
23 place was Butkova Stijena. I took over the group of hostages, and every
24 member of the hostage group entered the bus and I read out their names.
25 I put their names on -- on a separate list, and finally, the
1 representative of the Herzegovina Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska
2 signed the list confirming that those, indeed, were the men in question.
3 I put them on the bus. Together with us was a representative of the
4 state security of the Republika Srpska and a member of --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the witness notification for this -- for
7 Mr. Novakovic indicates that he testified to the role of transport of
8 hostages from Zvornik not Visegrad to Novi Sad. There's a lot of details
9 that are now coming into the record. We -- if it's being offered like
10 this at this time now apparently he wasn't in Zvornik, he was in
11 Visegrad, we ask for a substantial foundation as to the individuals that
12 he is meeting with, when did this happen. Right now he is testifying
13 generally about a bunch of different things, meetings, transport of
15 So we're objecting to the foundation at this time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think they went from Visegrad to Zvornik and then
17 left the -- so, at least Zvornik appears.
18 But, Mr. Jordash, if could you shed some additional light on it,
19 then it might assist Mr. Weber in understanding the evidence a bit
21 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
22 Q. Which route did you take with the hostages from Visegrad? Where
23 did you take them to --
24 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, Mr. Weber is on his feet.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think, first of all, let me see ...
1 When was it? Who were they; that's the first question. Because
2 we're talking about hostages.
3 MR. JORDASH:
4 Q. When did you attend Visegrad?
5 A. It could have been either the 1st or the 2nd of June, as far as I
6 can remember, I -- I mean. I believe it was the 2nd of June. I really
7 can't remember the exact date after such a long time.
8 Q. Fair enough. And --
9 JUDGE ORIE: And we are talking about the hostage crisis. Who
10 were the hostages?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, after
12 such a long time, I took over hostages who were nationals of Ukraine. I
13 believe that there were also Spaniards and French, and the whole group
14 comprised about 30 or 40 men. It was a long time ago. It's very
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think this identifies sufficiently; we have all
17 heard about a hostage crisis before and taking over of hostages and we
18 have heard about the role that Mr. Stanisic may have played and
19 apparently the questions and the answers are about that same event.
20 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, thank you. That is appreciated.
21 However, this witness was testifying actually to particular arrival and
22 meetings with particular officials of Republika Srpska once he got to
23 Visegrad. If we could have some foundation as to those.
24 MR. JORDASH: I'm not really sure what my learned friend wants in
25 terms of foundation.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- let's -- if --
2 Mr. Weber, if you have any additional questions there you can
3 raise the matter in cross-examination.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
5 MR. JORDASH:
6 Q. Did you take the hostages from Visegrad; and, if you did, where
7 did you go?
8 A. I took the hostages over from Visegrad and the route we took led
9 through the territory of the Republika Srpska up to Zvornik. There is a
10 border crossing there, I don't know whether it was Karakaj or Sepak; in
11 any case, we crossed a bridge there, and in the territory of the Serbia
12 the then-chief of service, Mr. Jovica Stanisic, and Franko Simatovic
13 waited for us. I believe that Mr. Vlado Dragicevic was also there and
14 there was some security detail. I can't give you the exact time but I
15 remember that on the bridge where we took -- brought the hostages,
16 Mr. Stanisic held a press conference because there was a huge number of
17 journalists there. I don't remember the exact date. It was a long time
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. JORDASH: May we go into private session, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 14019-14035 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 MR. JORDASH:
21 Q. Just, finally, Mr. Witness, just returning to 1995 and the issue
22 of protection of Muslims in Uzice region. Following the massacres in
23 Srebrenica, was there any issue which arose as a result of Muslims
24 fleeing those events?
25 A. In the area of the Uzice centre in that period, there was a large
1 influx of population from the area of Zepa to the area of the Uzice
2 centre. I cannot recall the exact time-frame. I think it could be
4 Q. Did any military Muslim formation cross over into Uzice territory
5 at that time?
6 A. I think the entire 7 Assault Brigade crossed over in the area of
7 Jagostica and the other part in the Drina valley. And they were escorted
8 by the Army of Yugoslavia and taken deeper in Serbia, in the area of
9 Jagosko Polje.
10 Q. Did that have anything to do with the DB?
11 A. In that period, the service monitored those movements. Of
12 course, it knew that they were taken in and escorted by the army and the
13 MUP to Vranesko Polje.
14 Q. Escorted by the army and the MUP. Were they -- last question,
15 Mr. Novakovic. Were they treated well, this Muslim formation, this
16 military formation of the 7th Assault Brigade when they fled the events
17 and entered Serbia?
18 A. Absolutely. They were treated in keeping with international law.
19 I believe the ICRC was present from the start. They were touring that
20 area. And, later on, representatives of the BH government came to visit.
21 Those people were asked who wanted to go where, and very few of them
22 wanted to return to Bosnia. Most of them wanted to go to third
24 Q. And did the DB monitor that?
25 A. The DB was able to monitor from the moment when the refugee
1 centre was established. But I believe there was a team from the public
2 security sector there, and the DB people joined in, sort of, because of
3 the presence of such a large number of people on the ground. But the
4 admission process and the escorting was handled by the MUP mainly,
5 because the border unit of the army escorted them only to Vranesko Polje.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. JORDASH: Thank you for your patience, Your Honour.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
10 Mr. Petrovic, would it be you who will cross-examine the witness.
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us a time estimate.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I think I will need about 30
14 minutes. Looking at the clock, I think we're close to the break so I
15 think perhaps it's better to go to the break first and then begin with my
16 cross-examination. But, in any case, I'm ready, whenever you say.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at you, Mr. Jordash, and I'm also
18 looking at Mr. Stanisic. If we take the break now, then we would have --
19 yes, then we would have approximately 75 minutes left. Perhaps that's
20 the better idea.
21 Mr. Weber, could you give us an indication for scheduling
22 purposes on how much time you would need?
23 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, based on a lot of things that
24 accumulated during the examination, it will be a rough estimate at this
25 stage. High side, four hours; low side, three hours, would be our
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then ...
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We will take the break now.
5 And you can start your cross-examination, Mr. Petrovic, after the
7 We resume at 25 minutes to 1.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Novakovic, you will now be cross-examined by
11 Mr. Petrovic. Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, I would like to briefly address
15 Mr. Jordash.
16 Mr. Jordash, if you want to have a videolink, you have to give a
17 date. I mean, we can't ask the Registry to prepare a videolink without
18 knowing the scheduled date and you have to arrange with the other
19 witnesses the way you deem appropriate. But we can't just say somewhere
20 in the next two weeks.
21 MR. JORDASH: I'm not really following why --
22 JUDGE ORIE: You asked for a videolink.
23 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means someone has to be available at --
25 the premises have to be there. Everything has to be prepared. We need a
2 MR. JORDASH: No, I -- I hadn't realized that we had got to the
3 point where we had not given a date at a time when we ought to.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed by the Registry that when the
5 Stanisic Defence were asked for date that they didn't get an answer.
6 Okay. Please.
7 MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers] ... if that is true, then I
8 apologise and I'll remedy that immediately.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, without delay.
10 Mr. Petrovic, sorry to interrupt you, but videolinks are always
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, I fully
14 appreciate that.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Novakovic. I have a few
17 questions for you with regard to your evidence given so far.
18 First of all, I would like to follow up on the last subject that
19 you discussed and that was the 7th Brigade and its exit from Zepa. Do
20 you know if there were pressures on the part of the -- the Army of the
21 Republika Srpska for those people who had crossed over to Serbia to
22 return to Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 A. The pressure of the Army of Republika Srpska?
24 Q. The Army of the Republika Srpska or some other bodies of the
25 Republika Srpska.
1 A. No, there were no pressures.
2 Q. Thank you. Witness, sir --
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, we have
4 a problem with the interpretation. Page 61, line 13. With your leave I
5 can repeat the question.
6 Q. Do you know if there were any pressures on the part of the Army
7 of the Republika Srpska or some other bodies of the Republika Srpska?
8 A. I'm not aware of any such pressures. I don't know.
9 Q. Thank you. The answer is the same that you provided a minute ago
10 but that was not recorded nicely in the transcript.
11 And could you please look at D156. I would like to call up the
12 document in e-court on the screen.
13 Witness, this is a very short document, only one page long.
14 Could you please look at it and then I will have a couple of questions
15 concerning that document.
16 Witness, sir, are you ready for my questions?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. First of all, under 1 in this document, some features and towns
19 are mentioned in the valley of the Drina river. Can you just confirm for
20 us that all the towns and facilities and features are on both banks of
21 the Drina River which means both on the Bosnian and the Serbian sides of
22 the river. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. Do you know if it is correct that in 1992 and later on the JNA
25 firstly and then the Army of Yugoslavia provided security in the course
1 of the Drina river bordering on Bosnia-Herzegovina?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. Do you know which troops were used to do that at the beginning
4 while the JNA still existed and, later on, when the security border --
5 border security was maintained by the Army of Yugoslavia?
6 A. I don't know. I know that there was a border unit of the army,
7 especially at the beginning, they provided security for the Perucac dam
8 above Bajina Basta.
9 Q. Very well. Witness, did it come a time when the territory of the
10 Republic of Serbia was immediately and directly threatened by combat
11 activities from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
12 A. It was directly threatened from the territory of Skelani.
13 When the attack on the bridge between Skelani and Bajina Basta
14 was launched, and when shelling started and when shells started reaching
15 the town itself. I believe that a few people even got killed on the
16 bridge itself.
17 Q. Do you know if the shells from the Muslim positions fell on the
18 town of Bajina Basta?
19 A. Yes, I know that. I can't remember the exact date, but I believe
20 that that was at the moment when the offensive in Skelani was launched in
21 the direction of the bridge in Bajina Basta.
22 Q. Was that in January 1993 or, rather, in early 1993?
23 A. It is possible. I believe that it was in early 1993 or
25 Q. Do you remember whether on that occasion in Bajina Basta and in
1 the relevant area there were visits by the president of the government
2 and the Ministry of Interior because of the situation?
3 A. Yes, I remember that. After the shelling of Bajina Basta and the
4 attack on the bridge in Skelani. The minister of the interior and the
5 prime minister arrived there.
6 Q. And the situation in the territory of Skelani and Bajina Basta
7 was that something of special interest to you and your service?
8 A. Absolutely. That was a direct threat on the territory which was
9 within the catchment area of our centre and I believe that the leadership
10 of the service was informed about the situation on the ground. A
11 document that we saw a while ago speaks about the activities on the
12 bridge and the spillover of the front line onto our territory.
13 Q. Did you, at that moment, reinforce the presence of your
14 operatives in the territory of Bajina Basta in the general area at the
15 moment when these events were taking place?
16 A. Yes precisely. That happened. A few employees went to assist on
17 the territory. They came from the centre.
18 Q. Sir, I have to ask you to make a pause between my question and
19 your answer, we speak the same language and the interpreters are finding
20 it very difficult to interpret everything. If I keep silent that doesn't
21 mean that I'm waiting for you to expand on your answer, I'm just waiting
22 for the interpretation to be over so that I can start putting my next
23 question to you.
24 A. I apologise.
25 Q. Do you know the name of the employees who were sent to
1 Bajina Basta. If you do, we will move into private session so can you
2 tell us.
3 Just tell us if you know.
4 A. In that period, I know from our territory an operative officer
5 from Arilje went there, and one operative officer from the centre in
7 Q. Do you know the names?
8 A. I know one name. I'm trying to recollect the other.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we move briefly
10 into private session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
12 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Witness, we spoke yesterday about the hydro power plant in
5 Perucac. Can you tell us, if you know, in terms of ownership to whom
6 does this hydro power plant belong? Is it a joint ownership between
7 Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, do you know?
8 A. I know it is Serbia's, but the building itself is on the border
9 between Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 Q. It doesn't matter. But do you know about the transformer of that
11 plant. On which side of the Drina river is it?
12 A. You mean the distribution plant. It's on the territory of
13 Serbia. It is in a place called Beserovina and it is serving most of
14 Serbia's territory.
15 Q. Witness, did you have any evaluation of the security risk to this
16 installation and the dam itself. How did you assess the security
17 situation around the hydro power plant?
18 A. The DB centre in Uzice, and there is a document about it, had
19 information that the bridge nearby and the plant in Beserovina would be
20 bombed. We even knew from where exactly on the territory of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina it was going to be targeted. And then the army got the
22 assignment to defend the dam as well as the distribution plant within the
23 territory of Serbia.
24 Q. If you know, can you tell us where were those artillery weapons
25 located. You were mentioning a location somewhere in Bosnia and
1 Herzegovina from which this dam was threatened. Where is it?
2 A. I think it is in the area of Skelani, and I believe the document
3 specifies the exact location. We can look at the document if you wish.
4 Q. Do you mean the document where you provided your comments?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. If you could assist us, tell us which document you mean exactly?
7 A. Number 7 in this binder.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we have shown
9 1D5065, please.
10 Q. Witness, is that the document?
11 A. That's the document. I believe it's page 2.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we turn the page, please.
13 Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, in the second paragraph, you
15 can see the exact... oh.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, do you mean the gun that disappeared from Potocari,
18 moved to Skelani?
19 A. Yes, hidden on the property of the Memici brothers.
20 Q. And from that location, one could directly target both
21 Bajina Basta and the hydro power plant.
22 A. Mainly the distribution facility. That was their target in
24 Q. You said a moment ago, Witness, that the army intervened
25 eventually in the situation in the Skelani in 1992. Do you know who and
2 A. If you turn to page 3, you will see that the army was involved in
3 defending the hydro power plant in Bajina Basta.
4 Q. Let's leave the document aside. Just try to answer my question
5 to the best of your recollection.
6 A. As far as I remember, the army was engaged to protect the dam
7 specifically that was on the border itself, and it was threatened by the
8 constant exchange of fire.
9 Q. Thank you, Witness.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at P599.
11 THE REGISTRAR: This is a confidential document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, not to be shown to the public.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document
14 not be broadcast, please.
15 Q. Could you look at the witness -- at the document on the screen,
17 If you are done with the first page, we can look at the second
19 A. I have.
20 Q. Can we show the witness the second page.
21 Please only look at the signature. We don't need to read the
22 whole document, not to waste time.
23 A. Yes, I can see it.
24 Q. Thank you. Could we go to page 1 again so I can ask you about
25 two allegations from that page. The document was signed by the Chief of
1 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, Zivota Panic, but I'm interested
2 in only paragraph 2 that reflects the situation on the ground, the
3 opening of fire, the throwing of explosive devices on privately owned
4 buildings, et cetera.
5 Just confirm, please, what is stated in this document, is it
6 consistent or not with your knowledge about the situation on the ground
7 at the time when the document was written in August 1992.
8 A. Yes, that's consistent completely with the information available
9 to the service about the situation in that area.
10 Q. One more thing: You mentioned today the setting up of MUP
11 staffs. We see that an order is given here to set up MUP staffs and the
12 organs responsible for their establishment are the ministries of
13 republics. The staff in Prijepolje, is it consistent with this?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know -- you know there was a staff in Prijepolje. Do you
16 know if there was a staff in Bajina Basta, for instance, or in other
17 areas at risk?
18 A. I can't be sure now whether I remember or not. There was one in
19 Bajina Basta, but I remember about Prijepolje because of Sjeverin, Strpci
20 and that situation there.
21 Q. Those staffs were set up to monitor the situation on the ground.
22 A. And to boost security.
23 Q. And those staffs were formed as part of the public security
24 sector of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you, Witness. I would now like to move to a new subject.
2 You said yesterday that some political parties in the Republic of
3 Serbia began to develop militant wings using volunteers who had just
4 returned from wars or had done stints in various wars. Which militant
6 A. As far as I remember --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: There are too many
8 microphones on.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer now?
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Yes, go on if the Trial Chamber allows.
13 A. In the area of Priboj, we noticed specifically that the
14 Serbian Popular Defence is present with their paramilitary unit,
15 White Eagles that came and went from wars. Then the party SPO had two
16 wings of Serbian Guards, also a paramilitary unit. Then the
17 Serbian Chetnik Movement was a paramilitary unit that flirted both with
18 the SPO and the Serbian Radical Party. That's what I remember about the
19 Serbian side in our area of these units of passing through our territory.
20 Q. Witness, could you explain why the activities of these
21 paramilitary units were of interest to you and where exactly lay the
22 danger to the security of the Republic of Serbia?
23 A. You know that militant wings and the arming of such units posed a
24 threat to Serbia in itself. They went to wars and they came back with
25 weapons. In the programmes and platforms of these political parties it
1 was stated that what they could not achieve by parliamentary means they
2 would do otherwise and that would create danger for peace within Serbia
3 and that's why we needed to monitor the activities of those militant and
4 the potential sources of new paramilitary units.
5 Q. In order to gather intelligence on these paramilitary units, you
6 had to have sources able to provide such information; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was it necessary for those sources to be inside, to be able to
9 provide good information about the activities of these groups?
10 A. That's the only way to get such information.
11 Q. Can you explain to us the connection between such an inside
12 source and the operative who runs that source, the controller?
13 A. It's perhaps important to emphasise that members of those
14 paramilitary units in our area were people from criminal gangs, people
15 bent on crime, people without fixed employment, which made it possible
16 for them to go frequently to wars.
17 Our operative could approach such a person in their own
18 environment, so we monitored the activities of those people in our own
19 area among the people who did not hide their affiliations to paramilitary
20 formations. At that time national passion was running high, especially
21 among those people who were members of paramilitary units although their
22 activities ran mainly in another direction.
23 Q. I'm interested in the relationship of your service with such
24 people. So you needed people who were either part of those units or very
25 close to those units?
1 A. Exactly. Because only in that way could we get good information
2 from the source.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness.
4 I would like to ask you now about your stay in the
5 Republic of Serbian Krajina, a few points.
6 You told us earlier today what you were interested in. Could we
7 just clarify your relationship with the State Security Service of the
8 Republic of Serbian Krajina. Was your relationship with them one of
9 subordination, of co-operation, of something else?
10 A. It was a relationship of collaboration, joint work on improving
11 the security situation in the area of the RSK. It was not one of
13 Q. What does this co-operation imply, in terms of information
14 procured by members of one or another service?
15 A. We worked jointly. Throughout my stay in the RSK, we worked
16 together with members of the RSK service. We shared information about
17 the assignments we had accomplished, and we reported primarily to the
18 centre of -- of the RSK service.
19 Q. Witness, were you interested in the smuggling channels that
20 existed in the territory of the northern part of the
21 Republic of Serbian Krajina?
22 A. Of course, when we talked to the refugees in the refugee camp, we
23 always asked them there was any smuggling going on in that area, the
24 smuggling of all sorts of goods.
25 Q. Did you learn something about the possible smuggling?
1 A. Yes. And we reported on that, regularly.
2 Q. Witness, you mentioned earlier today the significance of those
3 people who would come to the camp and leave on a daily basis. How did
4 that reflect on the overall security situation in that part of the
5 Republic of Serbian Krajina?
6 A. Well, let me tell you -- or let me put it this way.
7 For example, five people leave the camp one day and -- and two
8 days later, two of them return, which means that they were very well
9 informed about the security situation in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
10 Q. Did the same danger exist in -- with regard to the units of the
11 Army of Republika Srpska? Was their loyalty jeopardized? Was there a
12 possibility that any of the troops could shift over to the ranks of the
13 5th Corps? Was there an imminent danger of that?
14 A. Yes, there was such a danger. AP Western Bosnia was the official
15 army, and the troops would defect from there and join the 5th Corps.
16 That was a security threat because they had a state in the territory of
17 the Republic of Serbian Krajina together with other refugees.
18 Q. Witness, in intelligence sense were you also interested in
19 Fikret Abdic and his entourage? Did you gather intelligence about that?
20 A. I was a member of the state security of Serbia and I spent
21 sometime in the Republic of Serbian Krajina. I could see for myself that
22 Fikret Abdic and his colleagues had contacts with the representatives of
23 Croatia and the Federation, that they participated in trade negotiations
24 and other types of negotiations. I monitored those activities as well.
25 Q. Did you also gather intelligence about the activities of the
1 Croatian forces in view of the location of the refugee camps and that
2 part of the Republic of Serbian Krajina in general terms?
3 A. Where I was, the contacts with the Croatian side were fewer and
4 further between, unlike in Turanj. But in any case, we did collect
5 intelligence with regard to Croatia.
6 Q. What kind of intelligence did you collect? What did you find
7 interesting as an intelligence officer?
8 A. Occasionally, people from Batnoga moved to Turanj and some of
9 them even moved to Croatia and we found that interesting as a potential
10 source of information on something that could pose a security threat for
11 the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
12 Q. Witness --
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we move
14 briefly into private session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 Mr. Petrovic, I would like to inform you that the -- all three
17 Judges have lost more or less -- are lost more or less in terms of what
18 the relevance of all these details are.
19 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll try
24 and focus on something that I believe will be relevant and I can also
25 explain the relevance of my questions so far, if you think that that
1 should be necessary. If not, I can leave it for a later stage.
2 JUDGE ORIE: If you can do it in one line, it would be
3 appreciated. Otherwise, save it for a -- another day.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness was an
5 intelligence officer. I would like to find out what kind of intelligence
6 he gathered and what was the subject of interest of the service that
7 dispatched him to the Republic of Serbian Krajina. What was the essence
8 of his work. That was the information that I tried to elicit from him
9 because it is of some interest for my client.
10 However, I shall drop that and move onto another topic.
11 Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Witness, do you know whether a communications centre was located
13 in Petrova Gora? Do you know anything about that?
14 A. Yes, there was a communications centre at Petrova Gora.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be
16 shown --
17 Q. Do you know who Ranko Tadic is?
18 A. The name does ring a bell, but I never met him.
19 Q. Do you know what he did, what he was responsible for?
20 A. I believe that he had something to do with the communications
21 centre and maintaining communication.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please look
23 at 65 ter 4983.1, page 8.
24 Q. Witness, could you please look at the list of names and tell us
25 whether you recognise any of the names besides the name of Ranko Tadic;
1 and also if you know any of them, could you tell us what they did.
2 A. I believe that I recognise the name of Nikola Varda. And I
3 believe that he was an electronic surveillance and reconnaissance and
4 communications, and he worked at the communications centre himself.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while we're still in
7 private session, could you please tell us whether you know anything about
11 Page 14056 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation].
4 Q. Witness, you told us about the intelligence work and you said
5 that you were a member of the administration -- of the intelligence
6 administration as of November 1995, if I'm not mistaken. How did you
7 gather intelligence? You testified about interviews with sources,
8 associates and so on and so forth. What was the significance of
9 intelligence gathering by way of other means, primarily technical means.
10 Can you explain briefly?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Petrovic switch his microphone off.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In our service, we valued a live
13 source the most. However, during the war, we also obtained a lot of
14 intelligence by technical means, and that was also a valuable source of
15 intelligence for us, although we were not well equipped, due to the great
16 effort of the 2nd Administration, we engaged in some offensives, and we
17 managed to have a lot of breakthroughs in the territory of the former
18 Yugoslavia. That was a large contribution when it comes to the reporting
19 to the leadership of our service and the leadership of the state. I'm
20 talking about the electronic surveillance.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
23 questions for this witness.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.
25 A. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
2 Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.
3 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Novakovic, you will now be cross-examined by
5 Mr. Weber. Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Novakovic.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. When did you first meet with members of the Defence to discuss
12 your testimony in this case?
13 A. The first time I met them in the month of March this year. I met
14 them in Belgrade, some members of the team.
15 Q. On how many occasions have you met with the Defence to discuss
16 your testimony?
17 A. Three times, I believe. The last time I met them immediately
18 before my arrival here.
19 Q. Could you please tell us when these occasions were after
20 March 2011?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly switch off your microphone, Mr. Weber.
22 Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that in March, I had
24 those meetings, but I don't know when. I don't know on which dates. The
25 last time was very recently, immediately before my arrival here.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. Who was present during these meetings?
3 A. Those who were present were Tatjana Cmeric, Tatjana Zafirovic,
4 and Mr. --
5 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter didn't hear the last name.
6 MR. WEBER:
7 Q. Could you please repeat the last name?
8 A. Mr. Wayne Jordash.
9 Q. Did you see, or were Jovica Stanisic or Franko Simatovic present
10 during any of these occasions?
11 A. No, never.
12 Q. During these meetings with the Defence, did you discuss the
13 testimony which you have presented this week?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you shown documents that you have commented on during your
16 testimony in this case?
17 A. Yes. I was shown most of the documents. And as for the rest of
18 the documents in the binder, I saw them when I arrived here in The Hague.
19 Q. To understand your answer clearly, were you shown documents that
20 are in that comment chart prior to your arrival in The Hague?
21 A. Some of them I did. The rest I saw here. And I believe that in
22 my comments accompanying the documents can also tell you exactly which of
23 the documents I only saw here, when I arrived in The Hague.
24 Q. So when you said "the first time that I saw a document," that
25 corresponds to you seeing for the first time here in The Hague; is that
2 A. In the team.
3 Q. Based on the rather specific questions that have been asked to
4 you today, is it correct that the Defence took notes of what you told
5 them during these meetings?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat.
7 MR. WEBER:
8 Q. Sir, if you could please repeat your answer.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were these notes kept in typewritten form? In other words, was
11 the Defence typing as you spoke?
12 A. I believe so that, yes, notes were kept. I believe so.
13 Q. Sir, I see that you have with you here today and you have brought
14 into the courtroom a folder. And I can see from here that, as part this
15 folder, the contents contain handwritten notes. Are those your personal
16 handwritten notes?
17 A. This is just a piece of paper, some notes that I took yesterday
18 and continued taking them today just to be able to focus on your
19 question. I have a decision of the government with the topics that I can
20 discuss, and I have this binder with the documents, and that's all.
21 Q. Would you be willing to provide that spiral notebook with the
22 handwritten notes and that decision from the government to the Court
23 Usher in order for it to be distributed to the parties?
24 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if the Registry could actually take
25 possession of the spiral binder.
1 MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers] ... Before that happens --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
3 MR. JORDASH: -- I think it would be appropriate for my learned
4 friend to explain why that should take place and what the relevance is.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
6 MR. WEBER: Throughout the testimony here today I have watched
7 the witness repeatedly look at these notes while he's answering
8 questions. There is clearly information on them and he has been
9 consulting them throughout his course of his testimony. We would like to
10 know what's in front of the witness while he's testifying.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The witness explained, I think, that he made these
13 Could I -- I can't read it. How many notes is that? That one
14 page, half a page, ten pages? Just on the first page of that. And did
15 you make those notes in court here or in between during the breaks? When
16 did you make these notes, just one page?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When somebody asks me questions, I
18 just made a note of the topics. You're free to take a look. It is no
20 And this is the decision of the government relieving me of
21 keeping the state secret.
22 MR. JORDASH: [Previous translation continues] ... can I indicate
23 I have no objection.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the waiver from the
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, the -- looking at the kind of notes and
3 the explanation of the witness, the Chamber considers that the witness is
4 not under any obligation to give those notes to you at this moment.
5 That's one.
6 Second, if the decision of the government would not be otherwise
7 available to you, then, of course, the witness is willing to give it,
8 then -- but I do not know. I take it that that's the kind of decisions
9 that we've seen before. There are no protective measures. The witness
10 has not, on any subject matter, invoked any duty not to answer the -- the
12 That is -- so if you really need that decision, then,
13 Mr. Jordash --
14 MR. JORDASH: Could I just -- two things very briefly.
15 One, just for the record, we don't accept that the witness was
16 consulting these notes on a constant basis.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whatever it is, the ruling of the chamber is
18 clear. The witness is not under any obligation to give these notes, in
19 view of his explanation.
20 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 And secondly, that we don't, if the witness wants to, we don't
22 object to those notes being shown to Your Honours or the parties. It is
23 just so that the record is clear on that issue.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, of course, if you write down
25 what the subject matter of the question is, then consulting the note
1 would mean that you tried to remind yourself of what was asked.
2 MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers] ... Exactly.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So that to extent, it would not be very useful to
4 make these notes and not consulting them but only for this very limited
6 Mr. Weber, do you insist on the decision of the government to be
7 handed out to you at this moment by the witness, or at least would you --
8 do you have no other way of --
9 MR. WEBER: With respect to the printed decision there's no
10 problem with that. But the witness has been writing today during his
12 JUDGE ORIE: There's a ruling on that.
13 MR. WEBER: We would like the notes. The decision is -- okay.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is not under any obligation to give the
16 If you want to give them, Mr. Novakovic, you're free to do so.
17 But the Chamber is not insisting on you giving the notes you made to
18 Mr. Weber. If you say, let him have a look at it, then please feel free
19 to provide them to Mr. Weber.
20 What's your decision? To give them?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing that I have here is,
22 for example, when I entered the court, when I left the court, when the
23 breaks were. These are my notes, nothing else.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. If you say I'll give them to Mr. Weber, they
25 will be presented to him. They will be copied. And if you say, I'm not
1 inclined to do it, then you leave it. If you even torn it from the --
2 Could the usher assist Mr. Novakovic in handing out the notes to
3 Mr. Weber.
4 Mr. Weber, will I take it that you will make a photocopy and ...
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution makes a motion to compel production
7 of the typewritten statements and any statements that have been taken by
8 the Defence with respect to this witness. We have been prejudiced in
9 multiple ways due to the notice with respect to this witness. The
10 witness has now clearly testified there were notes being taken, that he
11 did meet with the Defence on a number of occasions, that these notes were
12 being taken contemporaneously to him making statements. So we ask for
13 immediate production, preferably within the next hour, of any statements
14 that were taken from this witness.
15 Further to that, the Prosecution would also reference our urgent
16 motion pursuant to Rule 67 of 21 June 2011 and our addendum filed on the
17 21st September 2011. Prosecution submits that this is it yet another
18 example of a manner in which we are being prejudiced by the lack of
19 disclosure of statements from the Defence. Urgent resolution of this
20 motion would be appreciated.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We're working hard on it at this moment, Mr. Weber.
22 Mr. Jordash, the request is to provide within one hour the
23 written notes written when interviewing the witness.
24 MR. JORDASH: We oppose for the reasons that we've outlined in
25 the various -- in the two exchanges of pleadings, and, two, we would
1 submit that the Prosecution have to do more than simply say, We have been
2 prejudiced. In the same way that when we sought to complain about lack
3 of notice, we were requested to outline the precise prejudice such as
4 loss of investigation opportunities and so on. That is what is required
5 at the very minimum before any cause of action arises, we would submit.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
7 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, throughout the testimony of this witness
8 so far I have made a number of objections relating to the notice and the
9 prejudice that we've suffered as a result which have included exactly
10 what Mr. Jordash has just said, the inability to investigate. There's
11 been discussion of a rather significant meeting that occurred in
12 November 1994 that involved key persons which was clearly discussed
13 beforehand. There's complete topics that this witness appears to have
14 discussed with the Defence well before his arrival in The Hague that we
15 knew nothing about that also involved documents that were in the
16 possession of the Defence, translated by the Defence back in April 2011,
17 which would correspond immediately to after when they met with this
18 witness and have not been provided to us until immediately prior to the
19 testimony of this witness.
20 We're being served with a comment chart on the eve, the very eve
21 of the testimony of the witness, and on top of it, this witness has
22 failed to mention Operation Thompson whatsoever, and we want to know what
23 he has to offer with regarding this. It is the -- what is prominently
24 figures in the witness notice. And we are being prejudiced at this time
25 by not having these statements for all the reasons outlined by
1 Mr. Jordash and the additional reasons that I've just stated.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, before you respond, are those notes in
3 your possession?
4 MR. JORDASH: Yes. If --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Are they typewritten, handwritten.
6 MR. JORDASH: Typewritten.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us any indication about the number of
8 pages, what are we talking about approximately.
9 MR. JORDASH: Approximately, I think -- from memory I think about
10 10 to 15 pages.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Apart from how we further develop, you should
12 keep them at this moment. Yes.
13 MR. JORDASH: Yes, certainly.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please -- you have an opportunity to further
16 MR. JORDASH: Well, I would respond only briefly, which is, if
17 the issue is that the Prosecution have been surprised by evidence, notes
18 which deal with those issues doesn't help them. It doesn't deal with the
19 surprise. It doesn't enable them any more so to go out into the field
20 and investigate.
21 It's an application which is simply a continuation of the
22 previous applications to get the notes, but hooked onto an issue which,
23 in reality, has got nothing to do with the notes.
24 My learned friend's application, if he has been genuinely
25 prejudiced, and we submit he hasn't, is to ask for time to investigate
1 the new issues, which, as he indicates, have arisen in the courtroom not
2 to ask for notes which corroborate or otherwise that new evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will consider it.
4 Mr. Weber, you asked for within one hour.
5 I do understand that if the Chamber would decide that you're
6 entitled to receive those notes, it should be done on short notice.
7 That's clear.
8 We'll consider the matter with priority. But not within the next
9 two minutes. The two minutes you still have available to put additional
10 questions to the witness.
11 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour. It's understood. The Prosecution
12 would just like to add the one point that the significance of the notes
13 relates to much more than what Mr. Jordash said. It relates to our
14 ability to be in a position to ascertain the truth and effectively
15 examine this witness as to his statements and any knowledge that he might
16 have --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I thought there were two rounds of
18 arguments and that you were invited to put additional questions to the
19 witness and not to re-start the -- the debate.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Novakovic, for clarity, can you confirm that you were
23 assigned to the 1st Administration of the Uzice sector of the
24 State Security Service between 1991 and 1995?
25 A. I worked in the centre in Uzice from the 1st of February, 1997
1 [as interpreted]. That's the administration for counter-intelligence.
2 That was that line of work, the equivalent of it in the centre.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I'm looking at the clock. I know that
4 two minutes was not much, but ...
5 Mr. Novakovic, we'll adjourn for the day. We'd like to see you
6 back -- let me just check. We'd like to see you back tomorrow, Thursday,
7 the 6th of the October, at 9.00 in the morning. I do instruct you hereby
8 not to speak or communicate in any other way with whomever about your
9 testimony, whether already given or still to be given.
10 If at all possible we would like to see whether we could finish
11 the testimony of this witness tomorrow. I know that you were asking for
12 three to four hours and that not much was left today. We're not
13 scheduled to sit on Friday. If could you try to keep it at the lower
14 end, Mr. Weber, then we might achieve that.
15 At the same time, if you raise your eyebrows in this respect, I
16 can imagine, because the way in which the Stanisic Defence made its
17 estimates and its assessment about the time needed, quite a few
18 surprises, and the Chamber wouldn't want to make a standard that we
19 multiply everything with three if we get estimates.
20 We adjourn for the day. We'll resume tomorrow, 6th of October,
21 9.00 in the morning, in this same courtroom, II.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of
24 October, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.