1 Wednesday, 25 January 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic
9 and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 And I'd like to move into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 16388 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 Ms. Marcus, you would like to make a submission.
25 MS. MARCUS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
1 On the 15th of November, 2011, the Chamber denied the
2 Stanisic Defence motion to tender the Milosevic testimony and associated
3 exhibits of Witness DST-071 pursuant to Rule 92 bis, ordering that he be
4 called for cross-examination.
5 The Defence's original 92 bis motion on the 26th of September
6 included the witness's Milosevic, Brdjanin, and Tadic testimony.
7 However, in an e-mail on the 11th of October the Stanisic Defence
8 informed the Prosecution that they did not intend to tender the testimony
9 from the Brdjanin and Tadic cases and they only intended to tender the
10 Milosevic testimony. This was confirmed in the corrigendum that the
11 Defence filed on the 13th of October, 2011.
12 According to the corrigendum, the Defence would be tendering
13 approximately 190 pages of testimony from the Milosevic case and more
14 than 500 pages of associated exhibits.
15 Yesterday, the Stanisic Defence informed the Prosecution that
16 they will, contrary to their prior submissions, seek to tender through
17 Witness DST-071 an additional approximately 400 pages of the witness's
18 prior testimony from the Brdjanin and Tadic cases and that they will
19 inform us today of the pages they will seek to tender from the
20 Stanisic/Zupljanin and the Krajisnik cases.
21 They also informed us that they will also be tendering the
22 exhibits discussed during these portions which are associated to that
23 prior testimony. The Prosecution submits that the testimony of DST-071
24 in this case should be limited to the 92 ter confirmation process for the
25 Milosevic testimony and associated exhibits as per the Defence
1 corrigendum of the 13th of October, 2011, and to cross-examination by the
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any wish to already respond, Mr. Jordash?
5 MR. JORDASH: I -- I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd like to think about it, then we'll hear --
7 MR. JORDASH: Well, I can say this at this stage, Your Honour:
8 That we are going through the testimony looking for ways to reduce the
9 notice we provided to the Prosecution. We have no wish to overload the
10 Court. Much of the testimony is duplicative and we're going to remove
11 that duplication. And once we've done that, the amount that the
12 Prosecution are complaining about will be significantly less, and they
13 will have, in our submission, plenty of time to deal with it.
14 The issues that the witness is going to deal with are
15 straightforward. But we understand the Prosecution's complaints, and
16 we're going to do what we can to reduce the workload of the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that the parties are not yet got
18 stuck, at least as far as the Stanisic Defence is concerned. Let's wait
19 for a second to see what they come up with.
20 Ms. Marcus, but you felt a bit intimidated by the announcement,
21 isn't it?
22 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I think it's not only the quantity.
23 It's also that they first noticed a great deal of testimony, then two
24 months ago they informed us that they wouldn't be tendering that. So
25 there was no further work done on that and it was not part of their
2 Now, before the witness is being called, being called only for
3 cross-examination following an application under 92 bis - this was an
4 original 92 bis witness - so now the witness is a 92 ter witness, and to
5 add -- to double the amount of material, I mean, when we applied for
6 92 bis for some of our witnesses, we were denied and we called them. We
7 may have added a few individual documents, but essentially they're
8 converting the witness to a heavily viva voce witness, which we feel is
9 not only an issue of notice and preparation, but also an issue which goes
10 contrary to their prior applications and to the Chamber's order.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that the Stanisic Defence is
12 seeking ways to make the witness lose some weight.
13 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. But I would remind the
14 Prosecution about their objection to this witness being 92 bis. In
15 short, it's what the witness hasn't commented on which is the problem for
16 the Prosecution. They say, Well, the witness was never asked about the
17 Red Berets, he was never asked by Mr. Stanisic, he was never asked about
18 supply by the DB. So the idea that the witness can now come into court
19 and the Defence doesn't have a job to do viva voce is inconsistent with
20 their original position. The idea that we could call the witness, put
21 the statements in, and then let the Prosecution do that work, it's simply
22 not reasonable.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Interesting discussion.
24 We'll move on. I do understand that there was also a submission.
25 The Chamber, of course, will consider both the developments and the
1 submission you made, Ms. Marcus.
2 I do understand that there was some information about the video.
3 Was that the 1995 video? Or was it the ...
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, it's the 1991 video.
5 JUDGE ORIE: 1991, yes.
6 MR. WEBER: On yesterday's transcript, at page 16325, the
7 Simatovic Defence played 65 ter 2D1017.1. After playing the video, the
8 Chamber requested further information concerning the contextual
9 information about when this funeral occurred.
10 The Prosecution was able to obtain the following information:
11 General Mladen Bratic of the Yugoslav People's Army was killed during
12 combat operations on 4 November 1991 in Vukovar while he was assigned to
13 Operational Group North. General Bratic's funeral was held on a date
14 between the 6th and 8th of November, 1991, in Belgrade.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Not --
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we can confirm
17 that information.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac. There's agreement on the
19 date of the death and the funeral of General Bratic.
20 If there's nothing else, could the witness be escorted into the
22 Mr. Bakrac, you announced yesterday that you would need, as we
23 find it on the transcript, one hour and a half. That's how it was
24 translated to us. But you actually said, if I may believe those who are
25 native B/C/S speakers, that you said one and a half to two hours.
1 Now, you've used two hours and 24 minutes until now, which means
2 that asking now for two hours would bring you well beyond what you asked
3 for originally, that was four hours.
4 Can you try to see whether you can finish in, well, let's say, if
5 possible, in a little bit over one hour and a half. Try to do your
6 utmost best.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll do my best to
9 complete my examination in an hour and a half, but I would be grateful if
10 you would grant me a little extra time, if really necessary.
11 JUDGE ORIE: As I said, a little bit over one hour and a half
12 would be fine with the Chamber.
13 Good morning, Mr. Pelevic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pelevic, we'll continue. But before doing so,
16 I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration
17 you've given yesterday, that is, that you'll speak the whole truth and
18 nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: BORISLAV PELEVIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac will now continue his
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Examination by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Pelevic.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. Mr. Pelevic, yesterday we spoke about a situation in which a
3 group of citizens together with Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, obtained five
4 seats at the first elections held. And as yesterday we were explaining
5 that at the time Serbia was a part of the federal entity, together with
6 Montenegro. So that everything is clear, I'd like to ask you whether
7 these seats were obtained in the Assembly of Serbia or in the Assembly of
8 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
9 A. It was in the Assembly of Serbia.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pelevic.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would now like to
12 have a look at a video-clip that might shed some light. The number is
13 2D1012.1. There won't be any sound and we'll see three short extracts.
14 It's V003118. It's a Prosecution document. There's a commentary from
15 the Croatian television which we haven't transcribed which is why it's
16 necessary to have a look at it without any sound.
17 Could we please see 2D1012 from 42 minutes, 02 seconds.
18 Q. Mr. Pelevic, please look at the video and tell us what sort of a
19 gathering is being held there.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we now have a look at
22 42 minutes and 25 seconds up to 42 minutes, 46 seconds.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And could we now have a look at the
25 clip from 43:31 to 43, 58 seconds.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Pelevic, now that we have frozen the image, could you tell
4 us -- this image, in fact, is an at 43 minutes and 58 seconds. You can
5 see three individuals. There's one person in the background. Can you
6 tell us who this person is, if you recognise him, from the left to the
8 A. Mr. Bakrac, the image is very obscure, very dark on my screen.
9 Could it please be made a little lighter? because I can't see anything.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It may also be a matter of adjusting the angle of
11 the -- under which the witness looks at.
12 THE WITNESS: Now is better. Now is better. Thank you.
13 [Interpretation] To the left we can say the late president of
14 Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic. In the middle we have the then-president of
15 Montenegro, Momir Bulatovic. And to the right we have the president of
16 Yugoslavia, Mr. Dobrica Cosic. And in the background, I can recognise
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Pelevic, could you tell me what the nature of this gathering
20 is and when it was held?
21 A. The meeting was held in 1993. I believe it was in the spring,
22 but I cannot remember the exact date. I see I still have a bandage
23 because I was still being treated for the wounds that I received in
24 Velebit. It has to do with opening the Sava centre in Belgrade. That
25 was the subject of the meeting. The meeting convened officials from all
1 the Serbian territories from Serbian -- Serbia, Montenegro,
2 Republika Srpska, and the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and I think that
3 the members of parliament from those areas, those countries, participated
4 at the meeting.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could 2D1012.1 please
7 be marked for identification for the time being.
8 MR. WEBER: That's fine, Your Honour, we have no objection to
9 what's been played so far. Though I don't know if there's additional
10 portions that Mr. Bakrac plans on adding.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Any additional portions, Mr. Bakrac?
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
13 Q. I just want to ask Mr. Pelevic whether he saw officials from
14 Republika Srpska and Republic of Serbian Krajina as well.
15 A. I already said that the image was very obscure. The only person
16 I could recognise was Biljana Plavsic. Perhaps we could have a look at
17 it again.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, is there any dispute about that Mrs. Plavsic
19 appears on one of these videos? Okay, let's then not look --
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- any further.
22 Madam Registrar, the number for the document -- for the video
23 would be ...
24 THE REGISTRAR: Video number 2D1012.1 will receive number D656,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Mr. Pelevic, yesterday you said that at one point in time the
5 Serbian Volunteer Guard was resting. It wasn't disbanded, but it was, so
6 to speak, resting; it was passive.
7 Could you tell us when it was activated, if it was, and what the
8 reason for this was?
9 A. The Serbian Volunteer Guard was activated sometime in
10 November 1994 when our instructors left for Velika Kladusa.
11 Q. Mr. Pelevic, before we move on to a more specific question about
12 that, tell me, did Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and the Serbian Volunteer
13 Guard send some offers to anybody before they were eventually engaged?
14 And if that was the case, who did they send their offers to?
15 A. In agreement with the president of the Party of Serbian Unity,
16 Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, I sent a letter to the president of
17 Republika Srpska, Mr. Radovan Karadzic. In that letter I wrote that we
18 are at the disposal of the Republika Srpska should our assistance be
19 necessary and should the assistance of both the Serbian Volunteer Guard
20 and the Serbian Party of Unity be necessary if the Republic of Serbian --
21 of -- if the Republika Srpska came under attack. And there were such
22 suggestions on the part of Muslims and the NATO pact.
23 Q. Before I put to you a few other questions, let's look at 2D1009.1
24 from 46.49 seconds to 47 minutes .43 seconds.
25 Let us wait for the booths to locate the transcript 2D1009.1.
1 And while we're waiting for this to appear, this is part of the
2 Prosecutor's 0000268.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continued] ... Mr. Bakrac,
4 could I seek clarification of one of the -- of, as a matter of fact, the
5 last answer.
6 You said:
7 " -- if the Republika Srpska came under attack. And there were
8 such suggestions on the part of Muslims and the NATO pact."
9 Did you intend to say that the Muslims and the NATO pact
10 suggested that there might be attacks on Republika Srpska; or did you
11 intend to say that there were suggestions that the Muslims or the NATO
12 pact would attack the Republika Srpska?
13 Which of the two?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said it clearly.
15 There were such indications about the intentions of Croatian and Muslim
16 forces to attack the Republika Srpska with the support of NATO forces.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the suggestions were that - and now the
18 answer is even more complete - that Croatia or the Muslims would attack
19 with the support of NATO forces.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. And now
22 let's look at 2D1009.1.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "You have recently visited many
25 cities in Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina. When it
1 comes to the Party of Serbian Unity, in how many areas are you present?
2 "We are present in Republic of Serbian Krajina almost everywhere.
3 In Republika Srpska, I come to Bijeljina every week. I'm also present in
4 Banja Luka and have visited Prijedor and Doboj several times. However,
5 we have not had the media coverage, but we will start doing that as well
6 in the future we believe we are involved in a sufficient number of
7 humanitarian operations. But let me repeat, we are always ready to help
9 "When there was a crisis in Gorazde recently, I sent a personal
10 letter to President Karadzic and placed the Serbian Volunteer Guard, said
11 if I need to mobilize them again and put them under the command of the
12 Army of Republika Srpska, I would be willing to help those people.
13 However, I know that this wasn't necessary.
14 "Too many armies is not a good thing because there are more
15 casualties in that case. I believe the masses of armed people in
16 Republika Srpska are sufficient, not only to stop the Muslims and
17 Ustashas but to liberate the territories that are presently under the
18 control of Muslims and Ustashas."
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Mr. Pelevic.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Pelevic, we heard what Mr. Raznjatovic said. He said that he
23 had sent a letter and that he was willing to place himself under the
24 command of the Army of Republika Srpska if such a need arose.
25 And now let us look at something else. You said that you also
1 sent a personal letter. Let us look at D29, which is already in
2 evidence. While we're waiting for this document to appear on the screen,
3 let us say that it was sent on the 16th of April, 1994. It says here:
4 "To the president of Republika Srpska, Mr. Radovan Karadzic. The
5 Serbian Volunteer Guard and the Party for Serbian Unity support your
6 heroic resistance against NATO and the USA ...
7 "As always, with all available forces we are ready to join the
8 army forces of Republika Srpska in order to protect Serbian nationality
9 and Orthodoxy.
10 "The 16th of April, 1994."
11 Were those the two letters, i.e., the two times you addressed
12 President Karadzic; once, it was done by you, the other time by
13 Mr. Karadzic when you -- you have told us that you also sent a letter to
14 President Karadzic and placed yourself at his disposal?
15 A. Mr. Bakrac, I did the technical part of the job. The letter was
16 signed by Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, the president of the Serbian Party
17 of Unity. I drafted a letter and I sent it; however, the person who
18 actually sent it was Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. So we're talking one and
19 the same letter. There were no two letters.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I go on, I
21 would like to tender 2D1009, and I would like it to be MFI'd for the time
23 MR. WEBER: No objection.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
25 THE REGISTRAR: 2D1009.1 will be receive number D657,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Pelevic, first of all tell me, since you participated in the
6 drafting of this letter, did you previously use Zeljko Raznjatovic,
7 Arkan, or the Serbian Volunteer Guard -- did you previously have to
8 obtain somebody's approval for placing yourself under -- on -- at the
9 disposal of President Karadzic?
10 A. No. Why should we have done that? We were independent and we
11 could act independently of anybody else.
12 Q. When you went to the Republika Srpska as the Serbian Volunteer
13 Guard, did you have your own command? How did the whole thing function
14 when you fought in Republika Srpska?
15 A. Of course, we could not fight there independently. We were under
16 the command of the Army of Republika Srpska and partly of the MUP of
17 Republika Srpska, i.e., of the police of Republika Srpska.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pelevic. And now let us go back to something
20 You said that in November the Serbian Volunteer Guard was
21 reactivated and engaged once again. Can you tell us how that came --
22 came about?
23 A. Sometime in early November Zeljko Raznjatovic and I had offices
24 next to each other in the party headquarters. The assistant of defence
25 minister, Mile Milanovic, also known as Mrgud, came to our headquarters
1 and he told us that a meeting had been held the previous day. The
2 meeting was attended by Slobodan Milosevic, the president of Serbia;
3 Radovan Karadzic, the president of Republika Srpska; and Milan Martic,
4 the president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina; as well as
5 Fikret Abdic, who was the leader of Muslims from the Cazin Krajina and a
6 well-known businessman.
7 He told us that at the meeting it had been agreed that a group of
8 instructors should be sent and that they would be training the military
9 troops of Fikret Abdic in the Cazin Krajina. Why was that a topical
10 issue? Because Mr. Fikret Abdic wanted to join Republika Srpska, i.e.,
11 he wanted the Cazin Krajina, which was in Western Bosnia, to be merged
12 with the Republic of Serbian Krajina so that Serbs and Muslims could live
14 That agreement had been reached and Mr. Mrgud told us that we
15 discussed -- they discussed who could train Fikret Abdic's forces in the
16 Krajin Cazina [as interpreted]. Milan Martic was asked to send some of
17 the troops of the Republic of Serbian Krajina to do that, i.e., the best
18 of his instructors. That's how it was agreed that the instructors of the
19 Serbian Volunteer Guard who were the most experienced and seasoned men
20 should go there. This was told to us by Mr. Milan Milanovic, Mrgud.
21 Q. Was -- did that come to fruition? Didn't Zeljko Raznjatovic,
22 Arkan, accept that -- was that an order by Mrgud, or a suggestion? What
23 could we call that?
24 A. Since Milan Milanovic, Mrgud, was an assistant minister of
25 defence of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, we understood that as an
1 effective order, and we acted upon that order.
2 Q. Do you know whether there was random selection of men or was
3 there a list with the chosen men?
4 A. Of course that the selection was not done randomly. It was an
5 important mission which was headed by the then-centre -- commander of the
6 centre of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, Milorad Ulemek, Legija. He was a
7 colonel in the Serbian Volunteer Guard. He issued an order to the
8 technical service in the headquarters of the party of Serbian unity and
9 the SDG headquarters in Belgrade to call some of -- some 70 of the most
10 seasoned fighters and trainers who could train Fikret Abdic's forces.
11 The service did that. And if I remember correctly, some 50 to 70 people
12 eventually went to Velika Kladusa.
13 Q. Do you know how they went there? How did they travel from
14 Belgrade to Velika Kladusa?
15 A. If my memory serves me well, they were instructed to come to
16 Erdut, and from there they went to the Republic of Serbian Krajina -- I
17 apologise, to Republika Srpska, i.e., to the Cazin Krajina which was then
18 a part of Bosnia-Herzegovina which didn't belong to anybody. It was
19 Fikret Abdic's turf. He was surrounded by the forces of the 5th Corps of
20 the Muslim army that wanted to annex that part to the Muslim and Croatian
21 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
22 Q. Those individuals who went to Erdut, did they leave their IDs,
23 jewellery, and personal belongings in the party headquarters?
24 A. I don't understand your question.
25 Q. When the -- these individuals were called up, and you say that
1 eventually about 50 people left, did these individuals report to the
2 headquarters of the Serbian Volunteer Guard in Belgrade before they
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And did they leave their personal effects in
6 Ljutice Bogdana Street in the headquarters of the Serbian Volunteer
7 Guard? Did they leave their -- behind their IDs, jewellery, and personal
9 A. The Party of Serbian Unity was not a bank. We did not have a
10 vault where people could leave their belongings behind. Of course not.
11 They came to the party headquarters and the SDG headquarters in civilian
12 clothes. They would board vans and leave for Erdut. That was all.
13 Nobody had IDs on them. The only thing that they had were their
14 membership cards for the SDG. They could not leave anything behind.
15 There was no room for that. We did not have a vault or any other
16 capacities for anybody to leave their personal belonging behind. That
17 was not a commonplace things to do.
18 Q. Mr. Pelevic, you have just told us that they did not have their
19 IDs on them but that, rather, they had been provided with SDG membership
21 Why didn't they have IDs? Was it so to make it impossible for
22 anybody to know where they had come from and where they resided?
23 A. That was a rule of the SDG. Everybody had to leave their SDG
24 membership cards behind in the headquarters. And when they went to -- or
25 Erdut, they took their membership cards because upon return from Erdut
1 nobody was allowed to take those SDG membership cards because of some
2 abuses that had happened beforehand. That was the rule that was well
3 established. Nobody who wore civilian clothes was allowed to have their
4 SDG membership cards on them.
5 Q. At the battle-field in the Republic of Serbian Krajina and the
6 Republika Srpska, did you bear the Tiger emblems that the SDG could be
7 identified by?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just stop you for a second.
9 Why not invite the witness to answer the last question?
10 You were asked why they didn't have their IDs. You gave a
11 perfect answer on why they had the SDG identity cards, but you didn't
12 answer the question. The question was: Why did they not have their IDs
13 with them?
14 Could you please answer that question.
15 And, Mr. Bakrac, I take it that you -- if put a question, that
16 you would like to receive an answer to it. But apparently you accepted
17 an answer on what seems to be a different question.
18 Could you tell us why they were supposed not to take their IDs
19 with them?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in war, one does not
21 have one's ID, although that was the principle of the old Serbian army.
22 We followed that principle in the SDG. We had ID cards of the SDG in the
23 battle-field, and these cards had all the information that IDs had, the
24 name, place of birth, date of birth, and all other essential
25 characteristics. And there was also photographs. It wasn't necessary
1 for the men to have identity cards because the SDG cards were quite
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Same information on that card. What is then
4 the principle that you shouldn't take your ID, whereas you take another
5 card which contains exactly the same information? Or was there
6 additional information on the SDG cards?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The SDG cards didn't have the
8 ID card number and the date of issue of the ID card or the place where
9 the ID cards were issued, but other information was there.
10 Let me just inform you that it wasn't forbidden to have your ID
11 card on you. But this was the practice that was followed, the principle.
12 It wasn't that important for us. But as a rule, the men had SDG cards on
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now, when travelling to the headquarters
15 before being sent to Erdut, were they without IDs then? Did they arrive
16 at the headquarters in Belgrade without any idea -- ID card and would
17 then be provided with their SDG cards? Or ... how did they do that on
18 their way to the headquarters in Belgrade?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a rule, anyone could go to the
20 HQ with their ID cards. But generally speaking, we all left our ID cards
21 at home, and the cards that we had left in -- in the SDG headquarters in
22 Belgrade were -- would be cards that we would use to go with to Erdut, to
23 the staff there.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Pelevic, let's just clarify this as much as possible.
3 As far as the SDG membership cards are concerned, did these cards
4 contain information on the men's blood group?
5 A. Yes, yes. That's quite natural. Because of the possibility of
6 being wounded and because of the necessity of providing first aid on site
7 during a battle.
8 Q. And the ID cards that the authorities issued at the time, did
9 they contain such information on blood groups?
10 A. No. These were old ID cards. The new ID cards contained such
11 information, but that was after the war.
12 Q. When you were on the battle-field, did you always bear this
13 identifiable Tiger emblem?
14 A. Mr. Bakrac, the SDG was well-known. As the SDG, it went by that
15 name. But it was better known as the Tigers. So on one side we had the
16 SDG insignia, and on the other sleeve, on the other arm, the Tigers
17 insignia. But when we came part of the Army of the Republic of
18 Serbian Krajina, and that was always the case -- but in 1993 I think we
19 also had the insignia of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. We
20 had that insignia on the sleeve, either by the Tiger insignia or perhaps
21 without the Tiger insignia there, and on our berets there was also the
22 insignia the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. It was
23 embroidered. The Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. It wasn't a
24 metal insignia.
25 Q. Mr. Pelevic, since we're dealing with this now -- I was going to
1 take a look at this later, but since we're dealing with this now, you
2 provided us with several photographs.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Let's have a look at 2D1040, please.
4 Q. Mr. Pelevic, you seem to be the person in the photograph. Can
5 you tell us what these two emblems are on your left shoulder and our your
7 A. Yes, that's a photograph of me. I assume that it was towards the
8 end of 1993. It wasn't possible to have photographs taken up until
9 May or June. The beret has a badge sewn on. It says the Army of the
10 Republic of Serbian Krajina. And on my sleeve, below the Tigers badge,
11 you can see the insignia of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
12 And then there are two medals of mine, and my rank.
13 It's not a great photograph, but we won't go into that.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this photograph
15 be admitted into evidence, please.
16 MR. WEBER: No objection.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [No interpretation]
18 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
19 Could we have a closer look at the badge on the beret. And
20 perhaps zoom in on it.
21 You say, Mr. Pelevic, that it says: The Army of the Republic of
22 Serbia Krajina. I have difficulties in finding any text on that emblem.
23 Where is that text found?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, usually the berets
25 don't have any writing on them, but the emblem is the same as the emblem
1 on my sleeve. So it is the badge that belongs to the Army of the
2 Republic of Serbian Krajina. Please have a look at the sleeve.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you say, "Text is on the sleeve and the
4 same emblem is found on the beret," that's what I understand. But to say
5 that the emblem on the beret says Army of the -- that seems not to be
6 very accurate.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assign a number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D1040 will receive number D658,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Since we are dealing with this subject matter, could we see
14 2D1038, please, which is another photograph that you provided us with.
15 Could you please tell us who can be seen in the photograph and
16 where the photograph was taken? We'll also comment on the board that we
17 can see behind you.
18 Could you please tell us who these two men in the photograph are.
19 A. To the left you can see myself. And to the right you can see
20 Milorad Ulemek, Legija, the commander of the army. And the board says
21 the Serbian Army, Assault Battalion, Tigers. We could be identified by
22 that name "Tigers" as well. As I have said, at the time we were an
23 assault battalion of the Serbian Army of Krajina. The photograph was
24 taken in Erdut in our training centre, and I cannot provide you with the
25 exact date. I can't remember the date.
1 I think it was in the year 1993, but I'm not completely sure. It
2 couldn't have been earlier because we had a board on which it said the
3 101st Training Centre of the Territorial Defence.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I
5 suggest that this photograph also be admitted into evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
7 MR. WEBER: Just based on the witness's answer we did have some
8 confusion about what exactly the sign says and whether or not it includes
9 the word "Krajina."
10 We don't have a translation available.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The sign? The board?
12 MR. WEBER: Correct. I believe the witness said it and then he
13 added something, but we were -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: It says "Srpska Vojska," the Serbian army, and then
15 the name of a battalion. And then it read "Tigrovi." That's -- unless
16 you would like to ... I think further down you see the emblem of a tiger
17 with again the word "Tigrovi" on it. Do you find anything else on this
18 apart from the four S's at the top?
19 I understood the witness to explain all of the text, even
20 literally. "Assault battalion," that's the seconds line. "Tigers" is
21 the third line in yellow. And then the emblem is --
22 Do you find any other text which needs an explanation?
23 MR. WEBER: No. We were just in -- we apologise if it's just our
24 confusion. We were just a little bit confused by the answer. If that's
25 the case, that's fine. No objection.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 I think that Mr. Bakrac wanted to have it admitted into evidence.
3 Any objections?
4 No objections.
5 Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D1038 will receive number D659,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
9 Yes, Mr. Pelevic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in relation to the
11 question put by the Prosecution, could the usher please show the insignia
12 on my sleeve where you can see the very same insignia, and it says the
13 "Serbian Army of Krajina." So that explains everything. Because it
14 couldn't have been any other army. That other army was the army of the
15 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. And here you can quite clearly see that
16 it is called the "Serbian Army," because the Army of Yugoslavia was never
17 called the Serbian Army. So you can see that it's the Serbian Army of
18 Krajina. You can see that on the badge on my sleeve. I do apologise if
19 I have interrupted you with this comment.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, I tried -- that's the reason why I took some
21 time. I tried to zoom in on the badge on your sleeve. And to be honest,
22 I couldn't decipher any text there, but it's too vague for me. And you
23 say, You can clearly see. Well, I do not know what I could clearly see,
24 which I apparently fail to see.
25 Could we zoom in, in great detail. Yes. Now, where is clearly
1 visible the text you just mentioned? You may have a recollection that
2 it's there, but ... if you say, "You can clearly see," then I wonder
3 where I could see that.
4 I see, as a matter of fact, which resembles very much the head of
5 a tiger, rather than anything else. And that's guessing. That's
6 guessing already.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's not the head of a
8 tiger. It's the Serbian coat of arms that was seen in the previous clip
9 on my uniform. The emblem is the same. Unfortunately, you can't see the
10 letters here because it was dark. I can't see the letters. But as you
11 have said, I was able to recognise the badge that I wore. So it's a
12 two-headed eagle, not a tiger's head. And there are crossed swords on
13 the emblem too, and above it should say the "Serbian Army" and below it
14 should say "Krajina," as was the case on the other badge that we
15 previously saw. You can compare the two.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a look at the other badge and try to
17 remember this one clearly. The previous one.
18 The centre of the emblem is orange.
19 Are you telling us, Mr. Pelevic, that the emblem we just saw on
20 your shoulder is the same as the one below here? Yes, the centre is, to
21 some extent, yellow.
22 Let's proceed.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Pelevic, let's now have a look at 2D131.
25 It's a newspaper article from "Novosti" dated the
1 9th of June, 2009.
2 You had a look at the board which says -- on which you can see
3 the inscription "assault battalion."
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm just going read out part of
5 this, Your Honour. It's the fourth paragraph. The fourth paragraph. In
6 the B/C/S version it's at the bottom, and it's the fifth one, the fifth
7 paragraph -- or, rather, the fifth column at the top in the B/C/S
9 Could we just go to the right. Yes, there it is.
10 It seems to be an interview with Mr. Milanovic, Mrguda [phoen].
11 "The Defence of the Slavonia and Baranja region depended on five
12 brigades: The Denzka [phoen], the Vukovar one, the Mirkovac Brigade, the
13 Beli Manastir Brigade, and the Dalj Brigade. We also had two independent
14 battalions. Arkan's Serbian -- Serbian Volunteer Guards and the
15 Skorpions. They were all officially under the command of the
16 Eleventh Corps of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, which for
17 a certain period of time was under the command of
18 Colonel Bogdan Sladojevic and then under the command of
19 General Dusan Loncar."
20 Mr. Pelevic, having seen these photographs and the assault
21 battalion, we see the interview with Mr. Mrguda who says that there was
22 an independent battalion in Arkan's SDG. Is it true that you were under
23 the command of the Army of Republika Srpska and under the command of
24 Bogdan Sladojevic and then under the commander of Dusan Loncar,
25 General Dusan Loncar?
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. It's the
2 second page in the English version. I apologise for not informing you of
3 the fact.
4 Q. Mr. Pelevic, is it correct that you were under the Army of the
5 Republic of Serbian Krajina and that the person -- or the body in charge
6 for the area was the 11th Corps under the command of the individual whom
7 I just mentioned?
8 A. Yes, that's correct. However, I don't want you to compare us
9 with that unit whose name was Skorpions.
10 Q. That's what -- that's precisely what I was going to ask you. Did
11 you have anything to do with them? Did you participate in combat with
13 A. No, never. As far as I know, they guarded some oil fields. We
14 did not have any contact with them. And it is good that that was the
15 case, since they comprised the entire Serbian army during the war.
16 Q. Mr. Pelevic, thank you very much.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just bear with me for a
18 moment, I need to check something.
19 I would like to tender 2D131 into evidence.
20 MR. WEBER: No objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D131 will receive number D660,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm looking at the
1 clock. 75 minutes short of half a minute are behind us, and maybe this
2 is a convenient moment.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It is, Mr. Bakrac.
4 We'll take a break. And we resume at quarter to 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give you an opportunity to continue,
8 Mr. Bakrac, I'd like to briefly revisit the matter of DST-071 and the
9 package the Defence intends to -- to present under Rule 92 ter.
10 The Chamber has considered it.
11 Ms. Marcus, in view of the position taken by the Prosecution, the
12 Defence is entitled to ask questions beyond what is found in the 92 bis,
13 the initial 92 bis application. I mean, when I say "initial," it's the
14 one limited to one testimony.
15 At the same time, so, the Chamber has no problems in you going
16 beyond that as -- in response to what the -- what -- what the Prosecution
17 took as its position. But the Chamber has great difficulties with the
18 way in which that's done. That is, again through expanding the 92 ter
19 materially enormously, with all the associated exhibits, which are rather
20 bulky exhibits.
21 Therefore, the Chamber will hear any evidence beyond what is
22 already found in the 92 bis application with the one testimony, hear it
23 through an examination viva voce by the Stanisic Defence.
24 Now, I can imagine that where the Prosecution says, "We'd like to
25 cross-examine the witness on A, B, C, and D," that you take that as some
1 guidance as to what you want to deal with as a subject matter for your
2 further examination-in-chief going beyond 92 bis. So, therefore, the
3 Chamber is still -- the portion you have presented in your 92 bis
4 application, which was denied to the extent that the witness has to be
5 called for cross-examination, that, approximately 190 pages of testimony,
6 transcript of testimony, the Chamber accepts that as the basis for the
7 evidence but insists on anything beyond that to be presented as viva voce
8 testimony rather than as a bulky and most likely repetitious in many
9 respects, et cetera, bulky material under Rule 92 ter.
10 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, that is the position we were moving
11 to, to be honest, and --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then, of course, we'd like to hear from
13 you what time you had on your mind you would need for that, and then
14 we'll consider that as well. Because apparently what you presented as
15 92 bis, you consider that to be clear enough even without any further
16 questions to be admitted into evidence. I can imagine that if the
17 Prosecution was to cross-examine on that, that you want to elaborate a
18 bit more, but you may have noticed that some other Chambers, 92 ter means
19 15 or 20 minutes in addition to that, but not hours and hours, and
20 that's ...
21 But, here again, for anything beyond what is found in that one
22 testimony, there, of course, the Chamber finds there's -- that there's
23 merit in your submission, that if the Prosecution wants to cross-examine
24 on that, that you should have more time, although not through 92 ter, but
25 a larger opportunity to elicit that evidence in-chief.
1 MR. JORDASH: And, well, two things, Your Honour.
2 Our approach is going to be to see what the witness knows and to
3 examine him in direct to show that he doesn't know about Mr. Stanisic or
4 the DB and he should do, if the Prosecution case was correct. So that's
5 going to be our approach. I can't imagine that I'll be more than three
6 hours, and I hope to be significantly less.
7 And it's -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then --
9 MR. JORDASH: Sorry -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- perhaps you also carefully listen to Ms. Marcus
11 on what matters she things cross-examination is vital so that you -- that
12 you know you can be focussed in your further examination-in-chief.
13 MR. JORDASH: And I should say this, and this is as much for
14 Madam Registrar as anyone else: That we've already given the witness a
15 B/C/S transcript of the Milosevic case, so I think we're -- that's one of
16 the problems that now which is no longer a problem, I think.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So we are moving forward. And I appreciate
18 the understanding of the parties for the Chamber's position, and the
19 Chamber tries to fully under the position of the parties when making any
20 rulings or suggestions.
21 Mr. Pelevic, our apologies for dealing with other matters. But
22 we had to move forward with this as quickly as we can, and, therefore,
23 you were the victim; you had to wait for a few minutes.
24 Mr. Bakrac, are you ready?
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Pelevic, before the break we spoke about the engagement of a
2 number of your members in the Cazin Krajina and Velika Kladusa.
3 Do you know how those people travelled from Belgrade to Erdut?
4 A. We had two vans. I suppose that they travelled in those two
5 vans. I'm not sure about that. However, I'm sure that they travelled in
6 civilian clothes.
7 Q. Do you know whether SDG members, those who were sent there, were
8 remunerated? Were they compensated for their engagement?
9 A. Yes. They received per diems. At that time, the time of
10 hyper-inflation, those were very low, but they could pay for their
11 cigarettes, refreshments, and so on.
12 Q. Do you know how they received the monies due to them?
13 A. I know that Mr. Milan Milanovic, Mrgud, told me and Arkan that
14 their expenses would be covered by --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the name of the
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what was agreed at the
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Do you know where they received the monies due to them?
21 A. In Kladusa.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
23 MR. WEBER: I believe the transcript's incomplete with the
24 witness's answer, lines 17 and 18 of page 31.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I -- you said, witness: "Mrgud told me and
1 Arkan that their expenses would be covered by --"
2 And could you then repeat by whom or by what.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By Mr. Fikret Abdic, who actually
4 spear-headed the initiative to have his men in Velika Kladusa trained.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was mainly to correct the incomplete
7 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Pelevic, during the Velika Kladusa mission did you receive
10 any money in the party headquarters and the SDG headquarters in Belgrade?
11 A. No. Unfortunately we never received any money, either before or
12 thereafter. Before the mission, during the mission, or after the
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we go into private
15 session for a moment, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 16421 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Pelevic, you've told us that your members went there as
14 instructors. Did you suffer any losses during that mission? And when I
15 say "you," I mean the SDG. Was anybody wounded?
16 A. Mr. Bakrac, it was not a battle mission. It was just a training
17 exercise for the Muslim soldiers of Fikret Abdic. There were no actions
18 or combat. But we did have two casualties; two soldiers hit an ambush
19 when -- when they were on their way from the centre to a unit of
20 Fikret Abdic. As far as I know, nobody was ever wounded.
21 Q. Do you remember the names of those who had been killed?
22 A. I remember. They were my good friends. One was Dimitrije Jasek,
23 also known as Mita, and the other was my driver, Jugoslav Micic [phoen].
24 Q. Mr. Pelevic, now we will move on to the summer of 1995.
25 My question is this: Do you know if SDG members participated in
1 combats on Mount Treskavica in the Trnovo theatre of war?
2 A. Yes, they did.
3 Q. Can you tell us who was engaged and how?
4 A. A small detachment of the SDG under the command of
5 Lieutenant Dragan Petrovic, Kajman [phoen], who unfortunately died in
6 1998. He succumbed to the wounds that he suffered during the war.
7 I will now share with you what I heard from my commander. He
8 said that he had met with Milan Milanovic, Mrgud, and
9 Radovan Stojicic, Badza. I repeat, Badza and Arkan were friends. At
10 that time Badza was already an assistant minister of the MUP in charge of
11 public security.
12 Badza told him that he had been asked by Radovan Karadzic in
13 Trnovo theatre of war. Since the Dayton peace negotiations were coming
14 up, he said that Serbia couldn't do much about that. And then the
15 commander came with Milan Milanovic into his office. He invited me to
16 join them. And I was present when Milan Milanovic asked Arkan to help
17 him out.
18 I believe that the situation was very difficult in view of the
19 peace negotiations that were coming up.
20 That same afternoon, Radovan Karadzic called. I was in Arkan's
21 office when that telephone rang, and he asked him to send some of his
22 guards to Trnovo and to place them under the command of
23 Dragomir Milosevic, the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. And I
24 believe that that was the breaking point, and it was then that the
25 commander decided that our unit should go to Trnovo.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pelevic. Now this has been corrected.
2 Let us now look at 2D1032. This is a photo that was provided to
3 us by yourself. Could you please comment upon it? Can you describe the
4 event for us, and can you tell who the persons depicted in the photo are?
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can the photo be zoomed in a little,
7 Q. First of all let us see from left to right. Who are the persons
8 depicted in this photo?
9 A. I took the photo myself in Erdut. This is the lineup of the unit
10 that was sent to Trnovo.
11 On the left-hand side we see Commander Arkan who is inspected --
12 inspecting the lineup. In the middle -- centre, you see
13 Mr. Milan Milanovic, Mrgud, the assistant minister of the MUP. On the
14 right-hand side is Dragan Petrovic, Kajman, who was in command of that
15 unit and that's why he attended the unit lineup.
16 In the background you can see General Marko Pejic, also known as
17 Peja. It was in charge of the Bosnian and Herzegovinian theatre of wear,
18 i.e., he was responsible for what was going on in Republika Srpska.
19 Q. Did Marko Pejic go to the theatre of war?
20 A. The only officer who went there was Dragan Pejovic,
21 Kajman [phoen], and a sergeant whose name I can't remember. And Mihajlo,
22 Zelko Raznjatovic, Arkan's, son also went. And he was even wounded
24 Q. Mr. Pelevic --
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I would
1 like to tender the photo into evidence.
2 MR. WEBER: No objection.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D1032 will receive number D661,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Pelevic, do you happen to know that Franko Simatovic, also
9 known as Frenki, played a role in sending out that unit to Treskavica, to
10 Trnovo, under Kajman's command?
11 A. No, I don't know that. Why would he have played a role in that?
12 Q. Mr. Pelevic, did there come a time when you did go to Trnovo to
13 visit that unit?
14 A. Yes. After the death of our three volunteers, Commander Arkan
15 ordered me to go there to see what had happened and to visit our
16 volunteers. I was accommodated in Jahorina hotel. I spent a night
17 there. And as soon as I arrived, I went to Trnovo and I talked to
18 Lieutenant-Colonel Kajman. Arkan's son Mihajlo was also there. He was
19 already wounded. He had suffered a slight injury. So I did go and visit
20 them, and I learned that they were wounded from artillery fire of the
21 Muslim army.
22 Q. While you were on Mount Jahorina that one day, did you notice
23 that there was a headquarters, a staff there? Did you perhaps hear that
24 a certain Franko Simatovic, Frenki, was in that staff?
25 A. I was there for two days. I spent just one night there. And I
1 did not notice anybody. And truth be told, I did not even know
2 Franko Simatovic. In any case, one thing is certain: There was no
3 headquarters or staff in Jahorina hotel. I was met by the hotel manager.
4 They were very polite and fair to me, but there was no staff in that
5 hotel. The staff was in Pale. There were two staffs there. One
6 belonged to the Army of Republic of Serbian Krajina under the command of
7 General Dragomir Milosevic, and the staff of the Republika Srpska MUP
8 under the command of the Defence Minister Tomislav Kovac. In other
9 words, both staffs were in Pale. I did not see anything on
10 Mount Jahorina, nor did anybody tell me anything about any activities
11 might have been taking place there. The only thing that was happening in
12 the hotel was the provision of hotel services, accommodation and food.
13 Q. Mr. Pelevic, now I'm going to show you --
14 Mr. Pelevic, did you have any communication with Trnovo when you
15 were in the staff of the SDG?
16 A. Of course. Of course.
17 Q. When I say "communication," I mean telephone lines.
18 A. Yes, we mean the same thing. Lieutenant-Colonel Kajman came to
19 the hotel and from there he could call the staff, and that's how we
20 learned about the death of our three volunteers.
21 Q. Let us be very clear: Was that telephone line with Belgrade or
22 with Erdut?
23 A. With Belgrade.
24 Q. Mr. Pelevic, let us now look at P1457.
25 Mr. Pelevic, this is a telegram issued by the chief of the
1 Security Services Centre in Srbanje [phoen], Rade Radovic, describing the
2 events that happened on the 5th of July, 1995.
3 First of all, I would like to draw your attention to where it
4 says that on the 5th of July, 1995, members of the MUP of Serbia were
5 brought to the surgical department in Srbanje and they are named.
6 I will draw attention to one name.
7 Under number 4, Miroslav Radisic [phoen], head injury, in a
8 comma, serious bodily injury.
9 Does this name ring a bell?
10 A. Yes. However, the document is full of mistakes and incorrect
11 information. There is a lot of incorrect information in this document.
12 If you will allow me, I would like to draw your attention to
13 number 1. The name is not Milorad Ristovic, but rather Milovan Ristic,
14 who succumbed to his wounds. And under number 4, it is not
15 Miroslav Radisic [phoen], but Radosic [phoen]. There is also another
16 nonsense that I notice here. A journalist, an RTV journalist, was also
17 apparently seriously wounded. This is nonsense. The entire text is
18 completely wrong. I don't know who this chief of centre was, but it
19 seems to be an illiterate person who was not privy to much information.
20 Q. Mr. Pelevic, thank you. I would like to invite your comments
21 about the things that I ask you to comment. Please do not misunderstand
22 me. I'm not criticising you. I just need to be focussed in view of the
24 Do you know that Ristic, Milorad [as interpreted] and
25 Radosic, Milorad [as interpreted] were wounded and died? Did you receive
1 information from Kajman how they died? And who else was injured?
2 A. As I said, it was in the course of the shelling, and the
3 journalist of the radio/television in Serbia was also wounded together
4 with them. He had been sent on an assignment there by Serbian
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pelevic. Let's have a look at 2D905 now. This is
7 a document that you provided to the Defence during the winter recess.
8 Let's please have a look at the first page of this document.
9 There's a request to provide a statement relating to Radosic Miroslav.
10 Can you tell us what this is about, in fact?
11 Let's just wait for the translation to appear for the Chamber.
12 We have it now.
13 Be so kind as to tell us what sort of a document this is. We can
14 see that it's addressed to you, Borislav Pelevic.
15 A. Mr. Bakrac, this requires an introduction, with your leave.
16 Since the Republika Srbija, the Republic of Serbia, never took
17 care of a single wounded person or the families of anyone who had been
18 wounded or killed, they never provided pensions or any other form of
19 assistance, these familiars and wounded individuals would claim their
20 rights through the Government of the Republika Srpska. That's the case
21 today. So I'm constantly in contact with him, and for five or six
22 families I've already managed to obtain assistance. Because
23 Republika Srpska, on the basis of my statements and other relevant
24 documents, provided them with compensation, pensions, because their
25 children were killed in the liberation of Republika Srpska. So all the
1 rights of the members of the guards would be obtained through
2 Republika Srpska and its Ministry of Labour, not through our country, not
3 through Serbia.
4 This is a document -- can I continue?
5 Q. I'll put that question to you.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we move on to the
7 following page. May we see the next page, please.
8 It says Professor Borislav Pelevic. It's a statement from
9 Professor Borislav Pelevic. It's the third page in the English version,
10 Your Honour. I do apologise. Just to avoid any confusion: The second
11 page in the B/C/S version and the third page in the English translation.
12 Q. You gave this statement. It concerned the circumstances under
13 which this person was killed. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who did you send this statement to?
16 A. The statement was sent to the Ministry of Labour and Welfare
17 Issues of the Government of Republika Srpska. I co-operate with them in
18 order to take care of the families of killed members of the SDG, members
19 of the SDG who were killed in the territory of Republika Srpska.
20 Q. You gave the statement on the 10th of February, 2011. Do you
21 know whether anything was done on the basis of the statement, whether
22 anything was obtained?
23 A. Yes. The mother of a combatant killed in action received a
25 Q. From whom?
1 A. From the Government of Republika Srpska, from the Ministry for
2 Labour and Combatants Welfare.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [No interpretation] [microphone not activated]
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I suggest that this
6 document be admitted into evidence, 2D905.
7 MR. WEBER: I see there's two pages that haven't been referenced
8 to. But is the Defence tendering all four pages or just the two that
9 have been referred to?
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it concerns all four
11 pages, but I didn't want to use up more time. Time is limited for me in
12 any case.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think that --
14 MR. WEBER: If it could be --
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's a relatively short document, so therefore
16 perhaps for reasons of context we should have all four pages in.
17 MR. WEBER: Very well, Your Honour. No objection.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D905 will receive number D662,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let's have a look at
24 2D906 now. This concerns some other individual. And here we also have a
25 response, a letter, from the Government of Republika Srpska. The
1 individual concerned is Sasa Tomic.
2 Could we please have a look at the last page in both the B/C/S
3 and English version.
4 This, Your Honours, is another example that relates to a
5 different combatant.
6 This document shows that it's an exchange between
7 Republika Srpska and the Ministry for the Welfare of Veterans. It's an
8 exchange between them and Borislav Pelevic, in fact.
9 Could 2D906 already be admitted into evidence, Your Honour.
10 MR. WEBER: No objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D906 will receive number D663,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Pelevic, we spoke about two individuals who were killed, and
17 you said -- or you provided an explanation of the letter.
18 Let's now have a look at a report dated the 23rd of July.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] P1470 is the exhibit number. And
20 could we please see the first page.
21 Could we see the first page of the typed document as well because
22 there is a handwritten attachment to this document. This is a dispatch.
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continued] [microphone not
24 activated] ... we have no other documents in e-court, Your Honours.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's the third page in
1 the B/C/S version.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Madam Registrar, your microphone was not activated. We only read
4 on the transcript: "Documents in e-court."
5 THE REGISTRAR: What is said, Your Honours, is that there are no
6 other documents than those that are shown on the screen, Your Honour.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I've caused
8 some confusion. We have the third page there now.
9 Q. Have a look at the item under number 6. This is a report from
10 General-Major Dragomir Milosevic. And under 6 it says something about
11 combat operations: "In the course of combat, we sustained losses."
12 And he also mentions two other combatants from part of the
13 Serbian -- from a part of the Serbian Republic of Krajina. And he refers
14 to volunteers.
15 Are you aware of two volunteers from the Serbian Republic of
16 Krajina being killed at a somewhat later date?
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It's page 6 on the -- it's -- the
18 second page, Your Honour.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was thinking about two
20 volunteers from the Serbian Republic of Krajina, but there was a -- some
21 confusion here. The third individual, Radosic, was wounded. We've
22 already spoken about him. He was taken to Belgrade to be treated there,
23 but he died a few days later. So three combatants were in fact killed.
24 But at the time he had information according to which only two volunteers
25 from the Republic of Serbian Krajina were killed. So these were
1 volunteers, volunteers of ours, from the SDG, the Serbian Volunteer
3 Q. My question is: Do you have any information according to which
4 some soldiers, some volunteers from the Serbian Republic of Krajina were
5 later killed? Because the date here mentioned is the 23rd of July, and
6 combat during that period of time is referred to.
7 A. No, I have no such information.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I refer the Chamber to
10 Exhibit D207 which relates to this evidence. This is a report from the
11 state of Serbia and concerns the names of all individuals who are
12 mentioned in telegrams as members of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.
13 Q. Mr. Pelevic, we do have to move on.
14 Please tell me, Did the SDG participate in combat in the
15 Banja Luka Krajina?
16 A. Yes. If you are referring to the period from September,
17 October 1995, yes.
18 Q. Could you tell me which forces the SDG participated in combat --
19 with which forces the SDG participated in combat in that terrain, in that
21 A. There are about 200 seasoned volunteers from the SDG. They were
22 under the command of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.
23 Q. Did you also have occasion to go to that battle-field? And if
24 so, when, and how much time did you spend there?
25 A. Yes, I did visit the guards and the guards' commander when the
1 Muslim and Croat forces acted together with the NATO support and they
2 attacked Cadjevica, which was the first line in the direction of the
3 Muslim army in the direction of the 5th Corps. So I visited the SDG, the
4 Serbian Volunteer Guards, and Commander Arkan for five or six days.
5 Q. Do you know which other forces -- or in fact, first of all tell
6 me, Do you know which period it was when you were there?
7 A. It was after the 10th of October. I know that because that's
8 when the guards celebrate their anniversary. I gave a speech in Erdut
9 since the commander was at the Banja Luka battle-field. I don't know the
10 exact date, but it was certainly sometime in mid-October.
11 Q. Mr. Pelevic, let's now have a look at D140.
12 We have a telegram here from the deputy minister, Tomislav Kovac.
13 It says:
14 "On the basis of the decision of the president of the RS." And
15 then we have the 17th of September, 1995. "On the decision of
16 associating all the forces, we have formed a Joint Staff consisting of
17 the representatives of the SVRS [as interpreted], the 1st Krajina Corps,
18 the 2nd Krajina Corps, and the MUP."
19 And under item 2, it says: "Raznjatovic, Zeljko."
20 Are you aware of the fact that Arkan was part of some
21 Joint Staff? And if you are aware of that fact, how did you find out
22 about it?
23 A. Yes, this was an order from the president of Republika Srpska,
24 Radovan Karadzic, according to which all forces should join and should
25 resist the enemy. All the units in the battle-field, in that
1 battle-field, were under a Joint Command. One of the members of the
2 staff was Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. Since our unit was very much
3 respected, I found out about this when I visited the guards and Arkan and
4 I saw that he was a member of the staff of the associated forces for --
5 of the Serbian army.
6 In addition to our guards -- well, the Army of Republika Srpska
7 played the main role, but there was also a brigade called the "vukovi,"
8 or the Wolves from Drina. This was a unit from Republika Srpska, a
9 volunteer unit from Republika Srpska, which was part of these joint
10 Serbian forces.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since time is limited,
12 I'd like to refer the Chamber to D28, P2948, and D82, which are exhibits
13 that relate to these forces.
14 Let's now have a look at --
15 Q. Or, in fact, first of all, sir, tell me -- Mr. Pelevic, tell me,
16 Did Arkan, together with his unit, receive combat orders? And, if so,
17 from whom?
18 A. Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, received orders from Momir Talic, the
19 commander of the 1st Krajina Corps, who was in charge of defence, and
20 also from the minister of the interior of Republika Srpska,
21 Tomislav Kovac, since he closely co-operated with the command of the
22 special police brigade in Republika Srpska, Ljubomir or
23 Ljubisa Borovcanin. I'm not quite sure what his first name was.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I refer the Chamber to
25 D146, which is a combat order issued by Mr. Talic. In fact, I see there
1 is a question mark there. Let's please have a look at the order. The
2 exhibit number is D146.
3 Could we have a look at the first page, first of all.
4 Q. This is an order dated 13th of October, 1995. Is that the period
5 during which you made that visit? We saw that Arkan was in the staff in
6 Prijedor. We could see that in the previous document. We can see the
7 command of the OD 10, Prijedor. And then the date,
8 13th of October, 1995.
9 Under item 2 it says the OD 10 unit, and then it mentions its
10 composition, the 15th Kozarska, LPGR [as interpreted], then it says
11 detachment of the Serbian Volunteer Guards, the MUP, and 1 through 27,
13 A. Yes. That is an order from General Momir Talic, the commander of
14 the 1st Krajina Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska.
15 Q. When you were there, could you observe co-operation between
16 Mr. Talic and Arkan? Were orders given and received or anything like
18 A. Yes. When Muslim and Croatian forces attacked, the commander and
19 I went to Cadjevica, which was the front line, and there I also met
20 General Talic.
21 Since the Army of Republika Srpska started withdrawing towards
22 Manjaca and towards Banja Luka as well, Momir Talic, Zeljko Raznjatovic,
23 and myself went to return the troops because they were fleeing due to a
24 false alarm. I spent the entire night with Momir Talic and Arkan. We
25 managed to return the troops to their original positions and to stabilize
1 the situation on the ground.
2 Q. Mr. Pelevic, can you now look at 2D902. This is yet another
3 photo that we received from you.
4 Could you please tell us who are the individuals in the photo and
5 where the photo was taken?
6 A. On the left-hand side you can see the minister of the police of
7 Republika Srpska, Tomislav Kovac. And Commander Arkan is on the
8 right-hand side.
9 I took the photo myself in Manjaca.
10 Manjaca is a hilltop between the front line in Cadjevica and
11 Banja Luka.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we tender this
13 document into evidence even before, but the source was challenged.
14 Could I now have 2D902 admitted. The verso of this photo shows
15 an inscription. The year 1995, Manjaca, near Banja Luka, Tomislav Kovac,
16 Minister of the RSK MUP.
17 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, we have no objection to the admission of
18 the photograph. However, right now there's no foundation for what the
19 writing is that follows on the subsequent page or the envelope on the
20 last page.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 Perhaps you can ask the witness whether he knows.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the source was in
24 dispute. The origin of the photo was in dispute. I don't need anything
25 else to be admitted but the photo. I'm not relying on the inscription
1 behind the photo or the envelope. Mr. Pelevic sent the photo to me, and
2 he has just confirmed the origin of the photo and where it was taken.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pelevic, could you tell us whose handwriting it
4 is at the back of this photograph?
5 And perhaps could we move to the second page of this document.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could it be displayed for me,
8 I really don't know. This is not my handwriting. I gave a copy
9 of this photo to Arkan and another copy to Tomo Kovac. This is not my
10 handwriting. However, I took it and it belongs to me.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You took the photograph. You provided it to
12 Mr. Bakrac, if I understand you well. Did you then give it to someone
13 else? I mean, any idea on -- on how this handwriting appears on the back
14 of the photograph? If it's not yours.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I gave a copy of the
16 photo to Commander Arkan, to Tomo Kovac, and to some other people
17 perhaps. I don't remember. It was a long time ago.
18 I really don't know how this could have happened, how anybody
19 could have written on it. I have sorted all of my photos. I don't have
20 that much time to write anything on the back of any of the photos. It
21 may even be the handwriting of my wife. But in any case, the photograph
22 depicts Tomo Kovac and Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Are you seriously telling us that you do not find
24 the time, being so busy, that you could write three lines on the back of
25 a photograph, Mr. Pelevic; is that your evidence?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at that time, in
2 addition to all of my duties and tasks, I was also the editor-in-chief of
3 the Serbian Unity magazine that was published --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there before you explain to us how
5 many difficult tasks you had to fulfil at the time.
6 Apparently, from the start of your answer, that is what your
7 evidence is; that you did not find the time to even -- and that explains
8 why it could not be your handwriting, because you were too busy to write
9 three lines at the back of a photograph.
10 Is that your evidence? A simple yes or no would do.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could I please be
12 allowed to explain very briefly?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all I would like to know whether that
14 is what you -- what your evidence was you gave half a minute ago.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the editor of the Serbian Unity
16 magazine, we had our photo department. I was editor-in-chief, and this
17 could be inscription made by our technical editor. I was not duty-bound
18 to mark the back of any of the photos.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, apparently you are answering a question which I
20 did not put to you.
21 I tried to understand where you said:
22 "I don't have that much time to write anything on the back of any
23 of the photos," whether that was really your evidence.
24 And I've asked you now twice or three times and apparently you
25 are not inclined to answer my question.
1 You may proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Your Honour, what will be the lot of this photo? I would be
4 satisfied with the admission of the photo alone without its back side.
5 Has this been admitted?
6 JUDGE ORIE: I have shown the back of the photograph to the
7 witness. And since I asked him questions about it, I think the
8 photograph, as uploaded in e-court, that is, a three-page document,
9 should be tendered.
10 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D902 will receive number D664,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Pelevic, can we now look at one video-clip, 2D1011.
17 While we're waiting for the booths to find the relevant
18 transcript, tell me, Mr. Pelevic, when did Arkan return from the
19 Banja Luka theatre of war with his unit?
20 A. That was in late October 1995, when the situation on the ground
21 was finally stabilized.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 2D1011. This is
23 part of the V000-7892. From 01 hour, 16 minutes, to 1 -- I apologise.
24 10 minute, 16 seconds, to 10 minute, 41 seconds.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Why are all the troops down there?
2 Tell him to stop firing. What does this mean? Tell them not to shoot in
3 the forest. Our men are there."
4 [Zeljko Raznjatovic Arkan] [In English] "The special force of
5 police and the Serbian Volunteer Guard were 800 metres from Kljuc, town
6 of ..."
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Pelevic, I have two questions for you.
9 It seems that Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, himself says that they
10 are near Kljuc. Do you recognise the person on the left-hand side next
11 to Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan?
12 A. Yes. This was taken in the Banja Luka theatre of war. This is
13 Ljubisa Borovcanin, who was either the commander or the deputy commander
14 in charge of the special brigade of the Republika Srpska MUP.
15 Q. We saw your photo sporting a black beret and now we can see Arkan
16 sporting a red beret. Can you tell us, What kind of berets did guard
17 members wear during the war?
18 A. First we had green berets and then black berets. And then after
19 the Vance Plan put a ban on the RSK army, we had blue berets. And
20 finally we ended up with dark red berets.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And now can we look at 1 minute,
23 41 seconds, to 2 minutes, 01 seconds.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Pelevic, first of all, can you tell us whether you know
2 anything about this event depicted in the video-clip?
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] ... Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, could we just have a clarification of
5 the time-code associated with this. I see on page 53, lines 2 and 3,
6 there's a "1 minute, 41 seconds, to 2 minutes, 1 second," and I see the
7 current video that's up on the screen is 2 minutes 15 seconds, just so we
8 know what we watched.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. It should be
11 2.03 to 2.57. We could not stop the video-clip in the right place.
12 Q. Sir, could you please pay attention to the civilians and one
13 person in a military uniform, and can you tell us whether you recognise
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we play the tape again from 2.03
16 to 2.57.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Are you able to recognise people? We saw Arkan --
20 JUDGE ORIE: We have seen now -- let's just assume that we
21 started at 2.03, which is after we had seen the tank firing. And now for
22 the second time it is stopping at 2.15, not on 2.57.
23 Do you intend to play the remainder? Or is it that you want to
24 put questions on these first 12 seconds? What is it, Mr. Bakrac?
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to put a
1 question about the initial first -- initial couple of seconds, and I
2 would like to ask the witness whom he recognises in the video still, and
3 then I would like to play the video-clip to the end.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So 2.57, we'll see that later.
5 Please proceed. Ask the questions.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Pelevic, we saw Arkan kissing an officer. And now at 2.15
8 seconds we see two civilians. Who are they?
9 A. The person on the left-hand side is Tomislav Kovac, the minister
10 of the police of Republika Srpska. And in the middle we can see
11 Radovan Karadzic, the then-president of the Republika Srpska. On the
12 right-hand side I recognise our general, Marko Pejic, a general in the
13 Serb Volunteer Guard.
14 Q. And you saw that Arkan was kissing an officer before that. Did
15 you recognise that person?
16 A. Yes. That was General Subotic, a general in the RSK. I don't
17 know his first name.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we continue playing the video
19 until the end.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
22 this video-clip into evidence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just --
24 Mr. Weber.
25 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I could just please have one moment.
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] An MFI is what I'm requesting. I
4 MR. WEBER: No objection.
5 Your Honour, I believe at this time there is some context missing
6 in terms of what it is and things of that matter. But we're not
7 objecting just for the purpose that the video was shown to him and he
8 identified individuals.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just checking, Mr. Bakrac, what you told us
10 about -- after you put some questions to the witness about who he
11 recognised, then we looked for 40 seconds at people walking amidst the
13 What are we supposed to do with that? Is the crowd important?
14 Is it -- what is it that you seek to establish by us looking for
15 40 seconds at the video?
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise.
17 Perhaps I made a mistake. But our position is that it is important to
18 see the relationship that Arkan had with the president of the republic,
19 Karadzic, with the minister of police, Tomo Kovac, and with the
20 representative of the army, the representative of the
21 Army of Republika Srpska. Given previous testimony, I don't want to
22 mention the name. That was my idea when I decided to show this for the
23 benefit of the Chamber.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I understand that for the first 15 seconds,
25 but for the last 35 walking -- okay, let's -- it takes most likely more
1 time to get it reduced, but could you please focus on what really is
2 relevant. And is he establishing how many persons -- if you want us to
3 look at the gentlemen walking amidst the crowd, then five seconds would
4 really do, more than that.
5 The problem is Madam Registrar has no copy of this video. How is
6 she supposed to deal with it?
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I requested that
8 it be marked for identification.
9 JUDGE ORIE: But even for it to be marked for identification, we
10 need something in e-court. The matter seems not to be resolved by
11 saying, "I only want it to be MFI'd," because we need something in the
12 system to know what is MFI'd.
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait ...
15 We'll wait until you have provided the Registry with such a copy
16 that we could consider marking it for identification. Perhaps a number
17 could be reserved for that purpose, even if we have no underlying
18 document. But one number that will be reserved is ...
19 THE REGISTRAR: Video 2D1011 will receive reserve number D665,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So it's not yet marked for identification but the
22 number is reserved for it.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm looking at the
25 clock, Your Honour, and please don't misunderstand me, I wanted to be
1 precise prior to this session. I was told that my examination had taken
2 up three hours and seven minutes. There were also certain preliminary
3 issues that had to be dealt with. I think I have now used up about
4 55 minutes, perhaps. Could I have an additional half an hour, please?
5 Because I have to conclude with this theme and then move on to one other
6 subject. And Mr. Jordash has also said that he will need less time for
7 his examination. So I would request that you allocate an additional half
8 an hour for me, if possible, and we could then have the break now.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, the three hours and seven minutes was at
10 11.00 after we had dealt with the preliminaries. So then you really
11 started. You took 65 minutes since then. That makes four hours and
12 12 minutes. You're now asking for another half an hour, indicating that
13 Mr. Jordash would take less time. Since we do not know how much time he
14 had in his mind and how much time he says he needs now ...
15 MR. JORDASH: I'm happy to give up half an hour, I think, from --
16 JUDGE ORIE: From one hour and a half? Was that the original ...
17 MR. JORDASH: Two hours was my original estimate.
18 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need, Mr. Weber?
19 MR. WEBER: Four hours.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pelevic -- Mr. Pelevic, could I address you for
22 a second.
23 It looks that it may be possible that we would not conclude your
24 testimony this week. I don't know whether travel plans you've made. I
25 noticed from your answers that you're a very busy man. Is -- could you
1 stay in The Hague until the beginning of next week to conclude your
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I was told, my
4 testimony would take three days. And as I was told that it would be
5 completed by the end of the week, I had certain plans. I have meetings
6 scheduled at the university in Novi Sad and Belgrade for next week, but I
7 will try to postpone the exams that were to be held, since about
8 100 students were expecting me.
9 So if you so request, I will stay on in The Hague.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Indiscernible] ... a problem.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you at least consider that possibility. And
13 would the parties further consider to see whether we could have an
14 extended session perhaps tomorrow, tomorrow afternoon, so that if
15 possible, with the assistance of everyone, that we could seek to conclude
16 the testimony of this witness still this week. That should be our aim.
17 But if you would consider, if we do not achieve that aim, if you would
18 please consider the possibility of staying over the weekend.
19 We take a break -- yes.
20 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, Your Honour. Would it be -- with
21 Your Honour's leave, could I have the witness look at four documents over
22 the break? I think that would save a little bit of time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that if you would inform the Prosecution
24 about what documents they are and if they do not object, that there
25 should be no problem.
1 MR. WEBER: It's fine, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Fine.
3 Then, Mr. Bakrac, you get your half an hour. But if you could
4 reduce it, then that would be highly appreciated. Perhaps reduce the
5 time of parts of videos we're looking at.
6 We resume at 20 minutes to 1.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Our late start is due to technical matters to be
11 Mr. Jordash, before we continue, could I ask you to give, soon,
12 the position of the Stanisic Defence in terms of right to be present, use
13 of videolink, if need be, or just a refusal, to say, "No, Mr. Stanisic
14 wants to be in court. Even if we would have a second session tomorrow in
15 the afternoon, he's unable to come, so therefore ..." You see, your
16 position in view of all the possible solutions for concluding the
17 evidence of this witnesses.
18 MR. JORDASH: I think I can give that now.
19 Mr. Stanisic is -- is going to, at some point, receive the second
20 dose of the new medicine. Aside from that, he will be present if there's
21 extended sitting hours. If he receives that during the time Your Honours
22 want to sit, he's happy for proceedings to continue.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So tomorrow afternoon would not --
24 MR. JORDASH: -- be a problem for the Stanisic Defence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then there may be all kind of other problems,
1 but I thought it wise to first inquire with you, because that's a -- I
2 would say, if there would be a problem, it would be a fundamental issue,
3 rather than a practical issue.
4 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
6 Then, Mr. Bakrac, are you ready? Half an hour.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Mr. Pelevic, let's now have a look at a video-clip. It's a DVD
9 that we received from you.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] From 1 minute, 46, up until
11 2 minutes and 15 seconds, Your Honours. 2D1016 is the number. 2D1016.2.
12 There is no sound, Your Honour. The first part at least has no sound.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Pelevic, there's some military vehicles and some soldiers
16 that can be seen here. Can you tell us on which occasion this video was
17 made; and who are these soldiers?
18 A. This was a celebration of the anniversary of the SDG. The date
19 is the 10th of October, 1990 -- 1995 in Erdut.
20 Q. We also saw some vehicles. What kind of vehicles are they and
21 who do they belong to? Or who did you belong to then on the
22 10th of October, 1995?
23 A. We belonged to the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. And
24 these are our vehicles that we received from the Army of the
25 Republic of Serbian Krajina.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please now
2 have a look at the next clip from the very same DVD. 8:52 to 9:28
3 seconds is the extract we're interested in.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Serbian volunteers and officers, it
6 is my honour and duty to greet you in the name of the Serbian Volunteer
7 Guard and in the name of its commander, Zeljko Raznjatovic Arkan. As you
8 can see, he could not be here with us today because he is on the front
9 line in the Banja Luka Krajina."
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. It's not
11 9:28, but 9:22. 9:22; 9 minutes and 22 seconds.
12 Q. Mr. Pelevic, is this a speech from that very same anniversary
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You said that Commander Arkan was in the Banja Luka Krajina. You
16 said that the date was the 10th of October, 1995. Tell me, when did you
17 go there? You said you visited the area for five or -- four or five
18 days. When did you go to visit the Banja Luka Krajina?
19 A. I can't remember the exact date, but I remember it was several
20 days after.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the following
22 extract: 16 minutes and 20 seconds is where I would like us to start.
23 This is an extract from the same DVD.
24 Q. Please tell us - it's 16 minutes and 20 seconds; we have frozen
25 the image - who is the individual to the left? We can see two
1 individuals. Who is the person to the left and who is the person to the
3 A. To the left you can see General Marko Pejic, Peja, from the SDG
4 wearing a red beret; and to the right, with a blue beret, you can see
5 General Obrad Stevanovic, the commander of the PJP.
6 Q. When you say the PJP unit, which one?
7 A. It's a unit from the Serbia MUP. The MUP in Serbia, after the
8 fall of the western part, or, rather, of the Knin Krajina in the western
9 part of Republika Srpska, after that fall, they were sent to the border
10 of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and to the Republic of Serbia because
11 an attack on Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem was expected.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Pelevic, let me just see -- let us just have a look at
15 another short extract of the DVD. 16:46 to 17:09 seconds is the part we
16 are interested in.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "All convicts of the Serbian
19 Volunteer Guard have been amnestied. In the name of the Serbian
20 Volunteer Guard, I call on you to join us in this modest army lunch.
21 Thank you for coming today to give dignity to our commemoration, because
22 this is not a celebration - this is not the time for celebrations. This
23 is a troop review of a battalion of the Serbian Volunteer Guard and a
24 commemoration for our dead."
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Pelevic, in this part you said that all of the convicts of
2 the Serbian Volunteer Guard had been amnestied. What is at stake, in
4 A. It was common practice in the SDG on the day of the anniversary
5 of the Serbian DG, the 10th of October, it was the practice to amnesty
6 the convicts from the SDG. Not all of them, but most of them. Those who
7 had shown remorse, who had demonstrated that they wouldn't act as they
8 had acted. And that was common practice in the SDG. Unfortunately, I
9 was replacing the commander who was in the Banja Luka battle-field that
10 year and I amnestied all the convicts of the Serbian Volunteer Guards.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could 2D1016.2 please be given an
12 MFI number. I do apologise. Could we first see 18:35 first of all. 18
13 minutes and 35 seconds. It's just a matter of identifying an individual.
14 It's important for me to do this. 18:35.
15 Q. Mr. Pelevic, can you tell us who this individual wearing a beard
16 is? The individual we can see on the DVD at 18 minutes and 35 seconds.
17 A. That is the team director from Belgrade whose name is
18 Mika Aleksic.
19 Q. Did you receive from Mika Aleksic certain materials after the
21 A. Yes, I did receive certain videos.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
23 MR. WEBER: If Mr. Bakrac could please ask the questions from
24 here on out in an open-ended fashion.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No leading questions is what Mr. Weber is
1 asking you, Mr. -- from now on.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I do
4 agree. It's just because of time restrictions. It wasn't
6 Could this DVD please be given an MFI number, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: 2D1016.2 will receive number D666, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Pelevic, let's please have a look at 2D527 now.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 2D527. Can this be zoomed in,
15 Your Honours.
16 Q. Here we have an unsigned document. This is a certificate issued
17 for Tomislav Drazovic. Are you familiar with this document?
18 A. Yes. It is one of the many regular documents.
19 Q. Is it correct that you have provided Tomislav Drazovic's file,
20 which included the certificate together with some other documents?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is it true that on the 15th of November, 1995, you were indeed in
23 Erdut, military post 819-09?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it true that Major Mladen Sarac at the time was the Chief of
1 Staff of the Serbian Volunteer Guard?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender
4 2D527. It is linked to 2D529, personal file for
5 Tomislav Drazenovic [as interpreted], son of Aleksandar. And the
6 document was already shown to the witness.
7 Can this be admitted into evidence, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
9 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution requests that it be
10 marked for identification subject to cross-examination. We'd also ask
11 that we be provided with the complete file, if it's been provided to the
12 Simatovic Defence, before tomorrow so we could prepare for it, for cross.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will provided all the
15 personal files, including the certificates. Let me just check something
16 with my Case Manager.
17 Your Honour, we received these documents earlier, and they have
18 been on our 65 ter list since June. We received them before June from
19 Mr. Pelevic. And since June they have been included in our 65 ter list.
20 There are another three or four, perhaps even five, personal
21 files that have all been disclosed to the Prosecutor already. They were
22 disclosed sometime in June.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would that be the complete files from which these
24 documents are taken?
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is what we
1 received from Mr. Pelevic, and it was explained to us at the time that
2 several personnel files were found on him. I have their originals which
3 I can show Mr. Weber instead of the scanned copies. The originals
4 contain coloured photographs and original stamps.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, would you be interested to have a look at
6 the originals and then perhaps at the same time have an opportunity to
7 look at what is there in terms of complete files or more documents, same
8 personnel files?
9 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour, that would be acceptable to the
10 Prosecution. We would request that the Simatovic Defence try to make
11 contact with us to show those files today, if possible.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would say from both sides you will see
13 contact and you will meet each other somewhere.
14 Then it would be marked for identification, this document.
15 Madam Registrar that would be ...
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D527 will receive number D667,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Pelevic, Mr. Pelevic, I have to put another three questions
22 very quickly to you to bring this topic to an end.
23 After the -- the events in Banja Luka and after the mission in
24 Banja Luka Krajina, did SDG receive recognition from Republika Srpska?
25 And if that was the case, who was the recognition from?
1 A. The SDG, after the events in Banja Luka Krajina, received a
2 thank-you note which was signed by the president of Republika Srpska,
3 Dr. Radovan Karadzic. Also, Commander Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan,
4 received another thank-you note on the same occasion also from
5 Radovan Karadzic, the president of Republika Srpska.
6 Q. Can we now look at 2D1019. And while we are waiting for the
7 document to be displayed: Mr. Pelevic, where is this thank-you note
8 physically at the moment?
9 A. Both thank-you notes are in my house. In the memorial room of
10 the SDG that I myself founded.
11 Q. Is it true that you took photos of the thank-you notes, and did
12 you send the photos to our Defence team?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Is this the thank-you note that was bestowed on the SDG by
15 Dr. Radovan Karadzic on the 22nd of October, 1995?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can 2D1019 be admitted
18 into evidence.
19 And I would like to say that the date on the second note of
20 appreciation is not clearly visible. If Mr. Weber has any objection to
21 its admission, it can be MFI'd, pending a better copy that may be
22 provided. I'm talking about document 2D1018. The date on
23 21019 [as interpreted] is visible. Or perhaps we could try and look at
24 2D1018 in e-court. They tell me that the image is better in e-court.
25 I believe that we can see it now. If Mr. Weber has no objections
1 to the document's admission, I would like to tender both documents into
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: No objection to 2D1019.
5 The only difference that the Prosecution can observe from 2D1018,
6 aside from the name, is the signature of Dr. Karadzic is not visible, but
7 we can see the date. With that being noted, no objection to that either.
8 JUDGE ORIE: On the one, the -- apparently the signature is
9 either fading or is difficult to see. But since there are no objections,
10 we'll keep this in mind.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [No interpretation]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D1019 will receive number D668,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. And finally, did Mr. Raznjatovic get a decoration from the
19 president of Republika Srpska? And if that was the case, when did that
21 A. The following year, 1996, Commander Arkan was decorated by the
22 highest decoration of Republika Srpska and the Serbian people in general.
23 He received the Medal of Karadjordje's Star by Radovan Karadzic.
24 I was decorated with a medal for [indiscernible], Milos Obilic,
25 and --
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we look at 2D1042,
2 which I would like to tender for admission. This is also something we
3 received from this witness.
4 Your Honour, I would like to tender this document into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
6 MR. WEBER: No objection.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D1042 will receive number D669,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would
12 like to broach my last topic just briefly, and I would like to bring my
13 examination-in-chief to an end.
14 Q. Mr. Pelevic, where were your offices in Belgrade?
15 A. Our offices in Belgrade were in Ljutice Bogdana Street, number 3,
16 across the street from the Red Star stadium.
17 Q. Was that also the headquarters of the Serbian Unity Party?
18 A. Yes. From the day of its foundation.
19 Q. Did you and Mr. Arkan have a personal assistant or a secretary?
20 A. The two of us had separate offices on the first floor. They were
21 next to each other. And in the hallway in front of our two offices there
22 was our secretary's desk.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we move briefly
24 into private session.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 16460-16463 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 Mr. Jordash, are you ready?
7 Mr. Pelevic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Jordash.
8 Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. I want to ask you about some of the evidence you've given and
15 just to seek some further details and some clarifications, if I may.
16 First of all, the subject I want to discuss with you is your
17 evidence about the animosity between the Tigers and the Serbian DB and
18 how Radovan Stojicic fits into that picture.
19 You appear to be making a distinction between the personal
20 relation that Badza had with Arkan and the relationship that Arkan had
21 with the Serbian MUP as an institution. Did I understand that correctly?
22 A. Yes, you have understood me correctly. He was happy about the
23 relationship between the two co-fighters and two friends, and this
24 continued to be the case up until Badza's death. This has nothing to do
25 with the relationship between the SDG and the Serbian MUP or state
2 Q. You spoke yesterday about the agreement between Arkan and the
3 minister of defence of Serbia which allowed Arkan's Men, your group, to
4 cross the border, and that was done in order to avoid police checks.
5 Which time-period are you -- or were you referring to?
6 A. That was the case throughout the war.
7 Q. Was there a time when the police checks were particularly
8 obstructive to the activities of the Tigers?
9 A. Because of those checks, we decided that no one could go from
10 Belgrade to Erdut in uniform or in the other direction, and that included
11 going there with weapons.
12 So we -- in that manner, we managed to avoid having our members
13 being checked by the Serbian MUP.
14 Q. You testified yesterday to using military routes because all the
15 other crossings were closed by the police controls.
16 Could you describe a bit more what you meant by "military
18 MR. JORDASH: That's, Your Honours, page 16373.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was war, and naturally, when you
20 have any extraordinary situations in any country the army takes over
21 command; and, thus, the army was in a position to create its military
22 routes that were independent of these police check-points. And we used
23 these routes when we went to the western part of the Republic of Serbian
24 Krajina and to Republika Srpska from Erdut.
25 MR. JORDASH:
1 Q. But when you described "military routes," are you describing
2 different roads, different places to cross the border, and so on? What
3 precisely are you describing? And how was it that this avoided police
5 A. Since we mainly used military trucks for transport, and a while
6 ago I said that the army was in control, it was the highest authority in
7 such extraordinary circumstances, since that was the case, we used
8 improvised routes. They weren't asphalted routes. They were improvised.
9 Naturally, in peacetime there are no such routes, because they passed
10 through police check-points controlled by the police. But at the time of
11 the war there were such routes which we used.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on the screen, please, D206, and it's
14 not to be shown to the public. It's confidential.
15 Q. Just for your information, Mr. Pelevic, there is -- what you're
16 going to see is a report by the State Security Centre dated June of 1992,
17 and this may answer one of your long-standing questions about an agent
18 working in the Serbian Volunteer Guard.
19 If you'd just read the first few lines. Just ensure you
20 understand what this is.
21 Do you have that?
22 A. Yes. And it brought a smile to my face.
23 Q. Let's go over to the next page. The bit I'm interested in, for
24 the moment, is the last paragraph, which deals with the police
25 discovering and confiscating a large consignment sent to the SDG but then
1 Arkan relying upon his personal relationship with Badza to get the matter
3 Is that consistent with what you observed concerning the
4 relationship between the Serbian MUP, the SDG, and Arkan and Badza?
5 A. Sir, the first paragraph I read through, as you suggested, is
6 really funny. Laughable. I can't command on it. Because to throw over
7 the government in Belgrade and bring back the Karadjordjevo Dynasty,
8 well, that's just laughable, especially since it was agreed with --
9 Q. I'm short of time. I do apologise. I don't mean to be rude.
10 I'm interested in whether this last paragraph, the Serbian MUP stopping
11 the consignments to the SDG, was within your experience; and, secondly,
12 was it within your experience that Arkan would, instead, rely upon his
13 personal relationship with Badza to resolve such difficulties?
14 A. This is the first time I have seen the document. But the last
15 paragraph is something that is quite possible. I don't know what this
16 event is. But it's quite possible that Arkan called Badza, his friend,
17 to resolve the problem.
18 But, as I said, I don't really know what it is about.
19 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
20 In terms of the agent, you testified about the -- the -- a man
21 being suspected of being an agent and then being thrown out of the SDG.
22 Presumably there was a huge amount of conversation about this, as you
23 spoke to Arkan about the fact that the Serbian DB may well have
24 infiltrated the Tigers and were seeking to damage the organisation.
25 Is that fair?
1 A. Yes. Your document has helped me to make sure that my conscience
2 is clear. We didn't expel him from the guards for no reason.
3 Q. And how concerned was Arkan about the Serbian DB and what the
4 Serbian DB were seeking to do in relation to Arkan's Tigers? I'm talking
5 about 1992 particularly, at this moment.
6 A. Obviously the DB tried to obstruct the SDG from the very time it
7 was founded, but the DB didn't have the strength or the manpower to
8 prevent the SDG from operating militarily.
9 Q. You say: "Obviously the DB tried to obstruct the SDG."
10 Well, it may be obvious to you, but can you testify why you say
11 that; what you observed to reach that conclusion?
12 I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just asking you to elaborate
13 on why you came to that conclusion.
14 A. Well, I will be concrete. It's difficult to speak about this
15 war-time period, but I'll provide you with an example of the elections in
16 Serbian in 1993.
17 The head of the campaign of Slobodan Milosevic's party, I won't
18 provide you with the name, told us that since he was a friend of mine he
19 told me and Arkan that our votes had been stolen at the elections, and he
20 said that this had been done by the DB through certain politicians in
21 Serbia who kept placing obstacles in our path and enter parliament before
22 us. I believe this gentleman. But you can't be given a document, I
23 can't provide you with a document, because, as you know, the secret
24 service has no such documents. But that is the truth.
4 A. Commander Arkan told me several times to pay close attention to
5 the person you have just mentioned. However, I did not share his opinion
6 that she might be a DB spy. Simply, that person just did not have such a
7 capacity as to work for DB, nor was she able to assist the DB from her
8 position or to disclose any important military or political intelligence
9 to the DB. So I thought that she was so harmless that there was really
10 no need to check on her.
11 Q. But, certainly, Arkan spoke to you on several occasions about the
12 fact that he didn't trust her, and the reason he didn't trust her was
13 because he thought she, too, was connected to the DB.
14 That's the situation?
15 A. Yes, I've just told you that. However, I did not take any of
16 that seriously.
17 Q. The same witness, P1615 [sic], said that Arkan was concerned
18 to -- was concerned about the DB because he felt that the DB was
19 observing and trying to stop his smuggling operation.
20 Are you able to testify to that?
21 A. The DB, I'm sure, followed Arkan and possibly me.
22 As for a smuggling operation, I don't know what you mean. What
23 that person meant is war-time, the time when you smuggle things? No.
24 There was no such thing going on in our midst.
25 As for sending packages in order to avoid the DB or the Serbian
1 MUP control, if that's what you mean, then the answer is yes.
2 Q. Could you just elaborate on that. Apart from these military
3 routes that were taken to avoid the Serbian MUP, can you think now what
4 else was done, in terms of these packages you've just mentioned, to avoid
5 the Serbian DB?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, before we start a whole new series,
7 because this might be the beginning, I'd like -- to start with, I would
8 like to know: Packages with what in it? That's the first question, I
9 think, but that might be the last question for today as well.
10 What was in those packages you were referring to?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not mention any
12 packages. I said dispatches of all kinds ...
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What kind of dispatches? Relating to what?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said is -- there
15 were consignments of any sort. We tried to bypass and avoid the control
16 of the Serbian MUP and DB. For example, we had to transport uniforms
17 from Novi Sad and from a factory in Kosovo to Erdut. We had to do that,
18 bypassing the police control because they would have confiscated those,
19 I'm sure.
20 That's what I meant. I didn't mean weapons.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No one talked about weapons at this moment. So
22 it's -- it's -- the question arises why you relate the question to
23 weapons. It was, I think, just that smuggling operations, smuggling
24 things, which -- so apparently you understood to be related to weapons,
25 but you've now clarified that what you do know is about, as an example,
2 We adjourn for the day.
3 We'll work out a schedule for tomorrow. We'll see whether we can
4 sit for such times that we could conclude your evidence tomorrow. We'll
5 try to do our utmost best, Mr. Pelevic.
6 I again instruct you that you should not speak with anyone about
7 your testimony, whether given yesterday or today or whether still to be
8 given tomorrow.
9 What I also would like to invite the parties to do is to try to
10 work out a schedule, leaving some time for questions by the Judges, and
11 then to see whether you could agree on the time you would still need. Of
12 course, I know that it's -- sometimes it's difficult to forecast how much
13 time you would need, but if you make a schedule, then, of course,
14 unexpected circumstances may have an influence on such a schedule. We
15 need to know, because scheduling -- some of the Judges have also
16 commitments tomorrow in the afternoon, so we have to try to get
17 everything together. So close co-operation with Chamber's staff and with
18 the Registry is required up to a high level of detail.
19 We --
20 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, I had to
22 ask you to bear with me just for a minute.
23 I would like to talk about our schedule, rather, about the
24 witness that we asked to come on the 27, on Saturday, that's DFS-017. He
25 was provided with safe conduct for December, but his appearance was
1 rescheduled. My colleague has applied for the safe conduct application
2 to be renewed for this witness.
3 I hope we may resolve this situation before Friday.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I don't know whether you missed the
6 filing of yesterday in which the safe conduct, that a new notice was
7 sent, which was available to you as well. I said that the Chamber would
8 take action, and that's what we did yesterday. So no need to revisit the
9 matter today. I would say check at what was filed yesterday. Unless you
10 have reviewed that and there's any problem with that, then we'd like to
11 hear from you.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 My colleague Mr. Petrovic is not with me today. He is the one
14 who has been dealing with that. I just wanted to avoid any possibility
15 of us not having a witness next week. That's why I've mentioned it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That's appreciated.
17 We adjourn. And resume tomorrow, 9.00, on Thursday, the
18 26th of January, in this same courtroom, II.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of
21 January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.