Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16473

 1                           Thursday, 26 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic

 9     and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             I -- first I would like to inform the parties that on the basis

12     of the submissions made as far as time is concerned, that we need a full

13     afternoon session if we want to finish with this witness.  And also in

14     view of what was submitted by the Stanisic Defence yesterday, the Chamber

15     has decided that we'll sit this afternoon as well.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just inform Your Honours that the medical

17     service -- sorry, let me put it differently.

18             Mr. Stanisic will have to see the medical service this afternoon.

19     He's been told that he will be transported back to UNDU around the time

20     of the end of what would be the normal session.  But as I indicated

21     yesterday, we can proceed in his absence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's understood.  And I don't know whether

23     we need an official waiver form or whether your -- the submission you

24     just made, that Mr. Stanisic waives his right to be present in court at

25     times today, when he will go back to the UNDU where we have an extended

Page 16474

 1     session, whether that -- I think that would be sufficient.  Because the

 2     forms mainly serve at moments where the accused is not in a courtroom

 3     itself and that the Chamber needs to -- needs written evidence that they

 4     can proceed, but ...

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, could I just have one moment, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just consult, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             There's no difference, that Mr. Stanisic waives his right to be

13     present this afternoon in the event that he has to go to the doctor's.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Or the hospital.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be brought into the

17     courtroom.  Unless there's any other matter.

18             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Pelevic.

21             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by

23     the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

24             And we arranged for a hearing this afternoon as well so that

25     there's a fair chance that we could conclude your testimony, although


Page 16475

 1     later, but still today.

 2             Mr. Jordash, if you're read, please proceed.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           WITNESS:  BORISLAV PELEVIC [Resumed]

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]

 7        Q.   Good morning.

 8        A.   [In English] Good morning.

 9        Q.   Let me just pick up quickly where we left off yesterday

10     concerning the relationship between the Serbian DB and Arkan's Tigers.

11             A witness in this courtroom testified that they had been present

12     at certain points during the Pauk operation and had observed a strained

13     relationship between men who were associated with the Serbian DB and some

14     of Arkan's Men.  That's a witness who was called Lazarevic.

15             Did you observe such a --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

17             MR. WEBER:  Could we please have the reference.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, yes.  Page 3375 -- sorry, no.  Page 3411 to

19     3415.

20        Q.   He said that -- and I'll just give you a bit more detail.

21             He said that he never saw the men from the DB socialised with

22     Arkan's men and they had a strained relationship because Arkan's men had

23     a poor reputation.

24             Did you observe a strained relationship between men associated

25     with the Serbian DB and Arkan's men, the men who joined the Pauk

Page 16476

 1     operation?  Are you able to testify about that?

 2        A.   [Interpretation] Sir, I said I -- I have already said I wasn't in

 3     the area of Velika Kladusa, so I don't know who associated with whom.

 4     But I do agree the relationship between Arkan's men and the DB wasn't a

 5     good one.  I would say that the DB, the state security, however, had a

 6     bad reputation.  I wouldn't agree with the claim that Arkan's Tigers had

 7     a bad reputation.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Let me move to a related subject.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have D273 on the screen, please.

10        Q.   I want to ask you about some activities concerning weapons supply

11     in 1991 and whether you now anything about this.

12             Perhaps before the --

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry, this is a confidential document.

14             MR. JORDASH:  I beg your pardon.

15        Q.   Perhaps before this comes up on the screen, you would -- I can

16     shortcut things by asking you this:  Have you ever heard of the

17     Zukanovics brothers?  Zukanovic.

18        A.   No, I haven't.

19        Q.   Did you ever hear about Arkan taking weapons from a TO depot in

20     Lipovica in 1991 or 1992?

21        A.   No, I've never heard about that.

22        Q.   What about weapons being transported by members of the Delije,

23     one of Arkan's companies?  Did you ever hear about that?

24        A.   I don't know which period you have in mind.

25        Q.   1991 or 1992.

Page 16477

 1        A.   All I know is that Arkan, given what he said, and given what the

 2     public would say, in Serbia, at the beginning of 1991 he attempted to

 3     transport some weapons to Knin, but he was arrested in Dvor na Uni and

 4     spent six months in prison in Zagreb.  That is the only thing I am aware

 5     of.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Well, I'll leave that subject then.  I don't think we need

 7     to look at this exhibit, since you don't seem to have any information, or

 8     relevant information.

 9             Let's move on to a different subject.  The attack on Bijeljina.

10             You testified on the 24th of January - and let me try to read the

11     relevant piece of it, testimony, so that you can recall what you said.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, page 16347.

13        Q.   You testified as follows:

14             "Immediately after the call from Biljana Plavsic, there was

15     contact -- contact was established with our people in Bijeljina.  And our

16     member whose nickname is Mauzer told us that it was absolutely necessary

17     for the guards to go and liberate Bijeljina."

18             And you were asked the question by Mr. Bakrac:

19             "After your arrival there, did you find out from Arkan or from

20     someone else, did you find out whether the guards participated in the

21     liberation of Bijeljina on an independent basis, or were they provided

22     with support of some kind?  And if so, with what kind of support?

23             "The guards had two forms of support.  They were supported by our

24     members led by Mauzer.

25             "But the main form of support was in the form of logistics, and

Page 16478

 1     it was provided by the army, an army garrison in Bijeljina.

 2     Major Gavrilovic commanded that garrison and he later became the

 3     commander of the 2nd Semberija Brigade."

 4             And a bit further down:

 5             "So the army provided us with logistics support ..."

 6             Did all the logistics from that -- for that attack come from the

 7     army, or did you have any other form of support, in terms of logistics?

 8        A.   All logistics support was provided by the army garrison in

 9     Bijeljina under the command of Major Gavrilovic.

10             Our volunteers slept over there and received food, so it wasn't

11     necessary to have any other form of combat support, since the operation

12     only took a day.  So the army didn't get involved.  But an agreement had

13     been previously reached, according to which the army would provide

14     artillery support and all other forms of support for the guards.  But all

15     of that, in the end, was not necessary, since the operation was rapidly

16     completed.

17        Q.   Did they provide some form of weapons or ammunition?

18        A.   No.  It wasn't necessary.

19        Q.   You said:

20             "So the army provided us with logistics support, but the

21     agreement was that the army should provide us with full combat support as

22     well.  But since we co-operated very successfully with the local patriots

23     and groups, it wasn't --"

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please slow down when reading,

25     for the benefit of the B/C/S booth.

Page 16479

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.

 2             "... it wasn't necessary for the Army of Yugoslavia to get

 3     involved in the conflict."

 4        Q.   So you did say on the 24th of January that the army provided you

 5     with logistics support.  Are you suggesting now they didn't?

 6        A.   Sir, as I have said, the army provided us with logistic support.

 7     We slept over on their premises and our combatants received food from

 8     them.  But, as I said, military support, combat support, was not

 9     necessary in the end, although, according to the agreement reached, they

10     had intended to provide us with such support.

11        Q.   After the operation was completed, the Tigers returned to the

12     army barracks; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And continued to plan the next stage of the operation with the

15     army.

16        A.   Yes.  Biljana Plavsic requested that Zvornik be liberated as

17     well.  And that operation was also carried out together with the Army of

18     Yugoslavia.  The army corps was headed by General Savo Jankovic.  We had

19     full logistics and combat support in Zvornik because, at the time, the

20     guards who were present on the occasion of the liberation of Zvornik

21     numbered about 60 men, so they provided military support to liberate

22     Zvornik, because the guards, with so few men, was not in a position to

23     liberate a town as big as Zvornik.

24        Q.   So from what you've said, this was -- these two operations were

25     the results of a very closely tied co-ordination between Arkan's Men and

Page 16480

 1     the army.

 2             Is that fair?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 4        Q.   Was their subordination ultimately of Arkan's men to the army; or

 5     was it co-ordination of two equal partners?

 6        A.   Since it was the Army of Yugoslavia and not the Army of the

 7     Republic of Serbian Krajina, it was a matter of acting as partners or as

 8     using our forces as joint forces.  Using the forces of the army and the

 9     SDG as joint forces.

10        Q.   In relation to Zvornik --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I'd like to ask one question to seek

12     further clarification of the previous testimony which you touched upon as

13     well.

14             Witness, you were asked by Mr. Bakrac the part that was read by

15     Mr. Jordash; that is, a call from Biljana Plavsic, then Mauzer telling

16     that it was absolutely necessary for the guards to go and liberate

17     Bijeljina.  Then, From whom did you get support?  And you started that

18     answer by:

19             "The guards had two forms of support.  They were supported by our

20     members led by Mauzer ..."

21             Now, you introduced Mauzer as one of your members.  That sounds

22     as the guards receiving support from the guards.  Therefore, I have some

23     difficulties in understanding what, then, those men were, your members

24     led by Mauzer.  Were they there already?  What does that mean, "getting

25     support from your own people"?  I would not call that support, but ...

Page 16481

 1     could you explain that a bit more in detail?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I have already

 3     said, Mauzer was a member of ours, but not other men and the TO members

 4     in Bijeljina that he had assembled.  So his support and the support of

 5     those Territorial Defence members was very important for us.  He was a

 6     member of ours.  We only had one member there.  Later, another member

 7     became included.  But at the time it was just --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I now understand.  If you say, "They were

 9     supported by our members led by Mauzer," there were not other members led

10     by Mauzer because Mauzer was the only one who was there.  And you said

11     later there was another one.  There -- another member became included at

12     the time.

13             So it was your men being called for the liberation of Bijeljina,

14     were supported by Mauzer and one other member who was there together with

15     Mauzer, and a group of men led by Mauzer, although not members of the

16     Guard.  Is that -- but coming from TO, et cetera.  Is that how I have to

17     understand the line "They were supported by our members led by Mauzer"?

18             Most of them were not your members.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's quite right, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   And the men led by Mauzer, these -- as I understand it, these

23     were TO members.  Did the TO members receive their logistics, i.e.,

24     weapons and ammunition, from the Yugoslav army?

25        A.   I'm not certain that all these people were members of the

Page 16482

 1     Territorial Defence in Bijeljina.  I know there were some members of the

 2     Serbian Radical Party from Bijeljina as well.  As to whether they

 3     personally received army support, support from the Army of Yugoslavia, I

 4     really don't know.  I know that Arkan told me that they, that's the

 5     Serbian Volunteer Guard, received logistics support from the JNA, from

 6     the garrison, with Major Gavrilovic at its head.  But as for whether

 7     these other people received such support, I do not know.

 8        Q.   Now, in relation to the -- thank you for the answer, Mr. Witness.

 9             In relation to Zvornik, is this correct: That the conflict there

10     erupted in the evening of the 8th of April, 1992, and it erupted when

11     elements of the JNA, 336th Motorised Brigade, the Volunteer Guards, and

12     TO units seized control of the town?

13             Does that summarize your understanding of how the Zvornik attack

14     took place?

15        A.   Counsel, if I understood you properly, you asked me whether the

16     conflict started when the joint JNA forces, the Territorial Defence, and

17     the guards attacked Zvornik.  The answer is yes.

18        Q.   And do you know, again, whether there was subordination of these

19     three groups, or were they acting as equal partners?

20        A.   All I can talk about is the relationship between the army and the

21     SDG.  I don't know whether the Territorial Defence was subordinated to

22     somebody.

23             As for the JNA and the SDG, they were partners.  They acted in

24     concert.

25        Q.   And did you come across or hear about Captain Dragan Obrenovic

Page 16483

 1     commanding a battalion of the JNA involved in that attack?

 2        A.   Since I wasn't there, I can say that the only person that Arkan

 3     mentioned was Commander Sava Jankovic, with whom Arkan co-operated

 4     closely.  I didn't hear of the other person, the captain that you

 5     mentioned.

 6        Q.   Just -- just -- perhaps I've missed this, but just so that we're

 7     clear:  The information that you have about Zvornik and Bijeljina came

 8     directly from Arkan contemporaneously, i.e., as things were happening; is

 9     that correct?

10        A.   No, no.  I was at the Krka monastery, and at the time we did not

11     have direct means of communication.  I only heard about those things

12     later.  I did not have any information at the time, save for those things

13     that I saw when I was in the monastery and when I watched the main TV

14     news.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let's break that down again.

16             But you did hear these things from Arkan; is that correct?

17     Directly from Arkan.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you heard about them the next time you saw Arkan after the

20     operation.  How long after these operations did Arkan tell you these

21     things?

22        A.   I did not hear about those things when I returned to Erdut from

23     the monastery.

24             Sometime past thereafter, perhaps half a year, or perhaps even a

25     year, because our relationship at the time was not of such a nature that

Page 16484

 1     he should immediately tell me everything about what had transpired.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.

 3             Let's move to a different subject.  P --

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have on the screen, please, P1127.

 5        Q.   This is a one of the documents I hope you looked at yesterday, so

 6     hopefully we can keep things short.

 7             Did you see this yesterday?

 8        A.   Yes, briefly.

 9             You provided the document to me with the Court's approval, I read

10     it, and I, more or less, understood what the document is about.

11        Q.   Do you know anything about the formation of this special-purpose

12     unit called the Red Tigers being part of the 101st RSK MUP Training

13     Centre led by Arkan?

14        A.   A distinction should be made between two things.  That unit was

15     not under Arkan's command, but the 101st Centre was, indeed, under

16     Arkan's command.  And I believe that that's what this agent meant, what

17     he had in mind when he wrote to the DB chief.

18             This doesn't mean that Arkan was the commander of the Red Tigers.

19     He was the commander of the 101st Centre.  That unit was supposed to have

20     been billeted in our centre, but that never transpired.  It would not

21     have been logical.  It says here that the unit was close to the communist

22     organisation, or, rather, the new party known as JUL.  This would have

23     been completely ruled out, because we were that party's political

24     opponents.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to slow down

Page 16485

 1     a little.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pelevic, could you please speak a bit slower

 3     because the interpreters have difficulties in following your speed of

 4     speech.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Let's move on to, then, D398, under seal, please.

 7        Q.   This was also a document I hope you saw yesterday.

 8        A.   Yes.  Yesterday during the break.

 9        Q.   And we can see what it is on the screen.  And I'm interested

10     in --

11             MR. JORDASH:  Let's go to the next page, page 2 of the English

12     and 2 of the B/C/S.  Actually, 3 of the B/C/S.

13        Q.   And the report notes -- or the report speaks of the RSK MUP staff

14     being dismissed or an attempt to dismiss them.  And that attempt being

15     supported by Arkan and Milovanovic, the RSK assistant minister for

16     national defence, and the meeting being attended by Bozik [phoen], who

17     was the vice premier of the RSK, who disagreed with the attempt to remove

18     the RSK MUP officials.

19             Is this something you can testify to?

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if we could just -- I know that the

21     transcript probably reflects what was said, but that the document says

22     "Stevo Bogic," not "Bozik," as reflected on 13, line 7.  Just for later

23     references.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby on the record.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

Page 16486

 1        Q.   Is this something you know about:  The dispute between RSK

 2     officials on the one side, and Arkan and Mrgud on the other in early --

 3     well, late 1992, I suggest, and early 1993?

 4        A.   I read the document yesterday.  It arises from -- from it that

 5     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and Milan Milanovic, Mrgud, were against some

 6     of the elements of the RSK MUP that co-operated with the DB from

 7     Belgrade.  It is stated clearly here that Milomir Ljubovic should replace

 8     Kojic and that Ivko -- Slobodan Ivkovic, who was accused of co-operating

 9     with the DB department of Serbia should have been replaced, and this

10     clearly transpires from the document.

11        Q.   No, I -- we can see what transpires from the document.  What I'm

12     trying to ask you about is whether you have any independent knowledge.

13     It's our case, you see, that there was a dispute between RSK MUP

14     officials and particularly Ilija Kojic and Arkan.  Ilija Kojic on the one

15     side, Arkan and Mrgud on the other.

16             Is that something you can testify to?  We know what the document

17     says.  The document confirms that.  But can you confirm that?

18        A.   Yes.  There was a dispute, indeed.  Mr. Kojic relied too heavily

19     on the DB department of the Serbian MUP.

20        Q.   When did this dispute begin, according to you?

21        A.   In late 1992.

22        Q.   How long did it continue?

23        A.   I really don't know.  Perhaps a few months.

24        Q.   Did Arkan and Mrgud and also Hadzic attempt to remove Kojic and

25     other RSK MUP officials?

Page 16487

 1        A.   Yes, correct.

 2        Q.   Was this one of the reasons that Arkan was so against the

 3     Serbian DB?  He felt as though they were using people like Kojic to work

 4     against his objectives.

 5        A.   Yes, precisely.  However, when it comes to those objectives, I

 6     have to say that Arkan's objective was primarily to unite all of the

 7     Serbian lands and the Serbian people in the territory of the former

 8     Yugoslavia.  Obviously the DB was against those objectives.

 9        Q.   Just let me try to, if I can, understand this.

10             What do you mean that Arkan's objective was to unite all the

11     Serbian lands and the Serbian people?  What does that mean in real terms,

12     in terms of territory?

13        A.   In real terms at the time, that meant that Republika Srpska, the

14     Republic of Serbian Krajina, and the eastern and western parts were to be

15     united with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

16        Q.   Through the creation of Serb territories all linked up between

17     these three places.  Is that -- is that what you're talking about?

18        A.   Yes, precisely that.

19        Q.   And you say:  "Obviously the DB was against these objectives."

20             What makes you -- what made you conclude -- did you conclude that

21     at the time?

22        A.   I conclude that based on the then-position of the president of

23     Serbia, which was at that time Yugoslavia, Mr. Slobodan Milosevic.  And

24     obviously the DB had to comply with his orders.

25             There was a time when he imposed a blockade between the Republic

Page 16488

 1     of Serbia and Republika Srpska.  Everybody had to obey him, and that was

 2     the main difference between us and them.

 3        Q.   How -- how was it that Kojic acted against those objectives such

 4     that Arkan wanted to get rid of him?

 5        A.   I am not aware of the details.  However, I'm sure that there were

 6     reasons good enough to remove him.

 7        Q.   And you conclude that because Arkan was sufficiently forceful or

 8     aggressive in his attempts to remove Kojic; is that -- is that right?

 9        A.   It was not just Arkan.  It was a joint position adopted by Hadzic

10     and Milan Milanovic, Mrgud.  The three of them wanted to remove Kojic and

11     the gentlemen from the DB who co-operated closely with the DB of Serbia.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now - is this right? - this was at the time or

13     certainly around the time when the Vance Plan, or certainty the dispute

14     then was around the time, or began around the time that the Vance Plan

15     had been -- or was beginning to be implemented; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And the PJMs had been formed within the RSK; is that right?  The

18     police brigades.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   There's been a suggestion in this case that around that time

21     that, in fact, Kojic commanded Arkan; that Arkan was subordinated to

22     Kojic.

23             Did you see that?

24        A.   In view of the fact that the Serbian Volunteer Guards, after the

25     Vance Plan was implemented, had to be transformed into the police of the

Page 16489

 1     Republic of Serbian Krajina, in that sense, that would be correct, yes.

 2        Q.   But in real terms, in terms of day-to-day command, that's not

 3     correct.  Am I right?

 4        A.   You -- yes, you are.

 5        Q.   Now, moving forward a little bit in time, in terms of -- by the

 6     time we arrive in -- into, say, 1994, 1994, are you aware of a

 7     Joint Defence Council existing between the RSK officials and the

 8     Republika Srpska officials?

 9             Probably a little later than that, maybe late 1994, a

10     Joint Defence Council dealing with joint defence operations between the

11     Bosnian Serbs and the RSK Serbs?

12        A.   Yes.  I'm aware of that.

13        Q.   How did it -- do you know anything about how it worked?  What it

14     meant, in real terms?  On a day-to-day operational kind of level.

15        A.   As I've already told you, the Serbian Volunteer Guards units were

16     sent to Velika Kladusa in November 1994, based on an agreement that was

17     reached by Milosevic, Martic, Karadzic, and Fikret Abdic.  The example

18     clearly shows that there was, indeed, quite a lot of co-operation between

19     the Republika Srpska officials and the officials of the Republic of

20     Serbian Krajina.

21        Q.   So is this right:  As a result of that agreement, battalions of

22     the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina would be sent to the

23     Republika Srpska on a monthly basis to assist the Republika Srpska and

24     their military objectives?

25        A.   I cannot answer your question because I don't know anything about

Page 16490

 1     that.  The only thing I know about are the activities of the SDG in

 2     Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  But I've already

 3     spoken about that.

 4        Q.   Fair enough.  I'm not going to push you on that.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just take instructions?  I think I may have

 6     finished.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you very much.  That's all I have.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

12             Mr. Weber, are you ready?

13             Mr. Pelevic --

14             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber.

16     Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.

17             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, to begin:  At transcript pages 16364 to

18     16366, the Simatovic Defence played a five-minute video of a speech by

19     Arkan from the end of 1992 where he refers to the united states of

20     Serbia.  This video has not been tendered.  At this time, the Prosecution

21     tenders 65 ter 2D1001 with transcripts available under 2D1001.1 as a

22     public exhibit.

23             For the record, this speech has also been referenced in the

24     transcript as 65 ter 6314.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.


Page 16491

 1             Was it intentionally that you did not tender it, Mr. Bakrac?

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  It was my mistake.

 3     Yesterday I did not tender the document into evidence after it was

 4     exhibited.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber --

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Two observations: First, the video is not in the

 8     system of the Registrar, so that is one.  Second, if it would be, would

 9     it then not be more cautious to give an opportunity to Mr. Bakrac to

10     tender it because he was the one who introduced it?

11             MR. WEBER:  That's fine, Your Honour.  I was mainly addressing it

12     as a housekeeping item.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             Mr. Bakrac, if you would take care that the video is in the

15     system, then it can be admitted into evidence.  Of course, since it is

16     played, it's always traceable what was shown.  But if it's not in the

17     e-court system, then, of course, it's not admitted into evidence.  You

18     cannot rely on it other than that it was played.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my Case Manager is

20     dealing with that as we speak.  We were told to prepare everything, to

21     put everything in place to be able to upload it into the system today.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we wait for your further activity.

23             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

25        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Pelevic.

Page 16492

 1        A.   Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.

 2        Q.   On Tuesday, you were shown a video of a speech by Arkan where he

 3     refers to the creation of the united states of Serbia.  You stated that

 4     this speech was at the Sava conference hall.  Was the location where this

 5     speech took place in Belgrade?

 6        A.   Yes, the Sava conference hall is in Belgrade, indeed.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6362.

 8        Q.   Sir, today the Prosecution would like to further discuss your

 9     political career.  In order to be efficient with this, the Prosecution

10     has created a chart for today's proceedings from -- containing

11     information that the Office of the Prosecutor received from the

12     National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia about the political offices

13     you held since 1991.

14             Directing your attention to item 1 on the chart, does this entry

15     correctly reflect information about your mandate as a deputy of the

16     National Assembly between 25 January and 20 October 1993?

17        A.   No, this is not correct.  I was never elected as the deputy of

18     the National Assembly.  I don't know where your information comes from.

19        Q.   Okay.  If that is a correction, what were you elected -- what

20     position were you elected to?

21        A.   The position as an MP and a deputy of the president of our group

22     of MPs.  The president of the National Assembly has his deputies.  I was

23     never one of them.

24        Q.   Thank you for the explanation.

25             Did Arkan hold an office between these same dates:  25 January to

Page 16493

 1     20 October 1993?

 2        A.   Yes.  He was an MP and the president of our group of MPs, from

 3     our party.

 4        Q.   Directing your attention to item 2 of this chart, does this entry

 5     correctly reflect information about your term in office between

 6     22 January 2001 and 27 January 2004?

 7             If it does not, please feel free to make any corrections.

 8        A.   Under item 2, if you are talking about my office as an MP, I was

 9     elected on the 23rd December, 2000.  And then if you look at the second

10     paragraph, all of that is absolutely correct.

11        Q.   What was your position in the Party of Serbian Unity after the

12     assassination of Arkan on 15 January 2000?

13        A.   After the assassination of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, I became

14     president of the Serbian Party of Unity.

15        Q.   Is it correct that you spoke during Arkan's wedding as his best

16     man on the 19th of February, 1995; and during his funeral you provided a

17     eulogy on the 20th of January, 2000?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   During both of these occasions, did you describe Arkan as a hero

20     of the Serbian people?

21        A.   Yes.  And that is still my position today.

22        Q.   When you spoke at his funeral, were you aware that Arkan had been

23     indicted by this Tribunal?

24        A.   I was aware of the fact, as was he.  But since the indictment was

25     under seal, we were not familiar with the details of the indictment or

Page 16494

 1     the reasons for which he had been indicted.

 2        Q.   Since the indictment was under seal, how did you and Arkan learn

 3     that there was an indictment against him?

 4        A.   Well, the media wrote about it in Serbia.

 5        Q.   Did you know Arkan prior to 1992?

 6        A.   It's not only that I didn't know him.  I'd never even heard about

 7     him.  I was involved in science and sports, so he wasn't someone I knew.

 8        Q.   Do I understand your evidence correctly, then, that you are

 9     claiming that prior to the year of 1992 you had not heard of

10     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, in any way?

11        A.   I could have heard certain things, but I wasn't interested in

12     that, because the world I was living in was completely different from his

13     world at the time.

14        Q.   Directing your attention to item 3 on the chart, returning to it,

15     does this information correctly reflect your term in office which -- your

16     present term in office which began on 11 June 2008?

17             Again, sir, if there's any corrections you would like to make,

18     please feel free to do so.

19             Mr. Pelevic, so you're aware, it does continue to the next page,

20     so if you could let us know when you need that next page.

21        A.   Yes, this is correct.

22             MR. WEBER:  Could we please go to the next page.

23        Q.   Sir, if you could please read the remainder of that entry and let

24     us know if that is accurate.

25        A.   If -- if -- if this word "narodni predstavnik," "national

Page 16495

 1     representative," means a member of parliament, then it is correct.

 2        Q.   Is it correct that the Party of Serbian Unity merged into the

 3     Serbian Radical Party in December 2007?

 4             MR. WEBER:  For the record, the Prosecution stated December 2007.

 5        A.   Given that the Serbian Party of Unity had difficult financial

 6     conditions, the Main Board wanted us to join either the Democratic Party

 7     of Serbia led by Kostunica or the Serbian Radical Party.  Since the

 8     negotiations I was involved in with Mr. Kostunica to join the Democratic

 9     Party of Serbia didn't bear any fruit, the Main Board requested that we

10     join the Serbian Radical Party, which is a move that I opposed.

11     Unfortunately, I had to respect the majority decision, the decision of

12     the Main Board, and we joined the Serbian Radical Party.  As a result,

13     everyone expect myself became a member of that party.  I didn't want to

14     become a member of that party because I didn't like the vocabulary they

15     used, and the way in which they conducted themselves.  I was in that

16     group, as a member of parliament for a while, but I was never a member of

17     that party.  I didn't want to be a member.

18             Tomislav Nikolic, the deputy, convinced me that things would

19     change, that he would form another political group; and as a reason, and

20     because of that, I remained within that party as someone who participated

21     in the proceedings, but I wasn't actually a member.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is kindly requested to slow down

23     for the sake of the interpretation.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Thank you, sir, for that information.  I do have a couple

Page 16496

 1     follow-up questions.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first again invite the witness to slow

 3     down.  The interpreters have difficulties in following you.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   Is it correct that you left the association with the Serbian

 7     Radical Party on 9 September 2008 and joined a new deputy group, or MP

 8     group, called Napred Srbijo, meaning the Progressive Party?

 9        A.   That's correct.  Napred Srbija was the actual name of the group.

10        Q.   After you joined Napred Srbija, did the Defence team of

11     Vojislav Seselj submit criminal charges to the War Crimes Prosecutor in

12     Serbia on 4 February 2010?

13             If you could please answer "yes" or "no" at this time, as we will

14     further discuss these allegations from Mr. Seselj's defence shortly?

15        A.   Sir, do you mean the criminal report filed against me by the

16     Serbian Radical Party?  Is that what have you in mind?

17        Q.   The criminal report that was filed against you on -- in

18     February 2010; that's the one I'm asking you about.  Do you understand?

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 6362 into evidence as

21     a public exhibit.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Since there are no objections, Madam Registrar ...

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6362 will receive number P3064,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

Page 16497

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   At transcript page 16337, you were asked about the commander of

 3     the Territorial Defence of the SBWS, and you stated:

 4             "Yes, I know that.  Because he often came to the training centre.

 5     His name was Radovan Stojicic, Badza.  He was the commander of the

 6     Territorial Defence.  And by virtue of that position he was our superior

 7     commander, because we were a Territorial Defence unit for the region of

 8     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem."

 9             Do you recall this testimony?

10        A.   Of course I do.

11        Q.   Is it correct that Badza attended meetings with Arkan where

12     upcoming SDG operations were planned and co-ordinated?

13        A.   When Radovan Stojicic, Badza, was the TO commander, I was an

14     ordinarily soldier, and I couldn't attend such meetings.  So there's

15     nothing I can tell you about that.  I'm just repeating what I already

16     said.  He did go to the training centre of the SDG very frequently.

17        Q.   Are you aware, either through your personal observations or

18     information you heard, as to whether Badza would arrange for the delivery

19     of weapons and supplies to the Serbian Volunteer Guard?

20        A.   I'm not aware of that.  Unless you have in mind deliveries from

21     the Dalj TO that mainly consisted of ammunition, Zoljas, hand-held

22     rocket-launchers, and grenades.  In that case, that is correct.

23        Q.   You learned of this involvement by Radovan Stojicic, Badza, after

24     you joined the Serbian Volunteer Guard in January 1992; correct?

25        A.   Yes.  I personally saw him on a number of occasions when he went

Page 16498

 1     to the Guards' centre in Erdut.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P1055.

 3     Page 2 of the B/C/S and page 5 of the English translation.

 4        Q.   Sir, before you is a copy of the published Official Gazette of

 5     the Republic of Serbia which indicates that as of 31 December 1991

 6     Radovan Stojicic had been officially pointed as the assistant minister of

 7     the Republic of Serbia Ministry of Interior.

 8             You were aware that Badza was the assistant minister of the

 9     Serbian MUP when you joined the SDG; right?

10        A.   No, I wasn't aware of the fact at the time, nor was I interested

11     in that.

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I don't know if this is a good break

13     time.  I see the time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  This would be.  If it's a good time for you, it's a

15     good time for a break.

16             We'll resume at a quarter to 11.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

20             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21        Q.   At transcript page 16338, Mr. Pelevic, you were asked:

22             "... to your knowledge, did anybody come to the training centre

23     in Erdut while you were there, or before you were there, as a

24     representative of the MUP of Serbia or the state security of Serbia?"

25             Your answer:

Page 16499

 1             "No.  I'm sure that nobody did.

 2             "There was quite a great detail of animosity between the Guards

 3     and the MUP of Serbia and especially between the Guards and the state

 4     security of Serbia.

 5             "Q.  Mr. Pelevic, is it true that Radovan Stojicic, Badza, once

 6     he stopped being the commander of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia,

 7     Baranja ... Western Srem, somewhat later became an assistant minister of

 8     the MUP of Serbia and the chief of the public security department?"

 9             Your answer was:

10             "Yes.  It's a notorious fact.  Everybody knows that."

11             In light of the decision we just looked at before the recess, is

12     it correct that your previous answers are not accurate, since Badza was

13     an assistant minister of the Serbian MUP while acting as a TO commander

14     for the SAO SBWS?

15        A.   Sir, as an ordinary soldier at the time, who'd joined the Guards

16     on the 10th of January, that was ten days after he was appointed as a

17     deputy minister of the interior, as an ordinary soldier I wasn't in a

18     position to be aware of that.  We didn't have any information to that

19     effect in the Guards.  And as a civilian prior to that period, I really

20     wasn't interested in who was appointed as the -- the deputy minister.  So

21     I stand by what I said.

22        Q.   Could you please explain, then, while two days ago you claimed

23     that it was a notorious fact when Badza became the assistant minister and

24     chief of public security, and today are you diminishing your knowledge

25     about that and saying you were not interested in it?

Page 16500

 1        A.   I'm saying I was a civilian up until the 10th of January, and

 2     during that period of time I wasn't interested in that.  After the

 3     10th of January I was an ordinarily soldier, for a month or so, and I

 4     couldn't have been aware of that.

 5             Later he became the assistant of the minister of the MUP.  Well,

 6     that is well-known.  But at the same time I was not interested in the

 7     fact.

 8             In any event, with your leave, he never acted -- or he never went

 9     or visited as an assistant to the minister, but as a commander of the TO

10     of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

11        Q.   We've seen that he was actually officially the assistant -- an

12     assistant minister of the Serbian MUP.  In light of that fact, are you

13     presenting evidence saying that Arkan was actually worried about Badza

14     stopping the Serbian Volunteer Guard at the borders between Croatia and

15     Serbia?

16        A.   No, he wasn't afraid of Badza.  I will repeat what I have already

17     said.  They struck up a friendship and both of them fought together in

18     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  And Commander Arkan was

19     subordinated to him as a TO commander, of course.  He wasn't afraid of

20     him, but naturally he was afraid of the ordinary police that would deal

21     with these situations in a regular manner.  So these weren't affairs that

22     had to be dealt with by the assistant to the MUP minister or by the

23     minister himself, but he was not afraid of Badza.

24        Q.   When you joined the Serbian Volunteer Guard, were you aware that

25     the Serbian MUP was the institution authorised to conduct background

Page 16501

 1     checks in the Republic of Serbia?

 2        A.   Well, that's quite normal in all countries, including Serbia.

 3        Q.   At transcript page 16339, you discussed the relationship between

 4     Badza and Arkan.  You stated:

 5             "This was a very personal relationship, and that continued to

 6     exist all the way up to Badza's death."

 7             Is it correct that you attended Badza's funeral with Arkan in

 8     April 1997?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. WEBER:  At this time the Prosecution would ask to play the

11     first clip from 65 ter 6316.  This clip comes from a French TV3

12     documentary entitled "Milosevic and his Shadow Men."

13             A copy of this documentary with English subtitles is on the

14     Prosecution exhibit list under 65 ter -- under 65 ter 713 with

15     ERN V000-6775.  The Prosecution is playing this version of the

16     documentary from ERN V000-4338 because there are no subtitles.  The

17     duration of the first clip is 17 seconds.  It corresponds to the 22- to

18     39-second segment.  There is music during this video-clip, but no

19     narration to translate.  No transcript has been provided because of that.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, did you recognise this video footage as footage from

23     the funeral of Radovan Stojicic, Badza, on the 14th of April, 1997?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Were you and Arkan part of this procession that we just watched?

Page 16502

 1        A.   Yes, we were.

 2        Q.   Did you see yourself and Arkan in the video-clip we just viewed?

 3        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, the image was very small.  It was perhaps less

 4     than one quarter of the size of the screen.  If the image could be

 5     enlarged to take the full screen, perhaps I would be able to assist you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So your answer is, "No, I didn't see myself."

 7     Because that was the question.  Whether it's the size of the screen or

 8     whether it's you weren't there is then the next question.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, we appreciated that this might be a concern of

12     yours.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6316.1.  It

14     is a marked video still from the 36-second mark of the video-clip we just

15     watched.

16             And if we could please just have one copy of the -- or if we

17     could have the still just -- single still on the screen.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I recognise myself as well as

19     Commander Arkan.  This is an entirely different situation.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... sir, if I --

22        A.   The still is frozen.  It's a bit bigger.  I recognise myself,

23     although I can only see one part of my head.

24        Q.   Sir, so the record's clear:  Is it correct that the red arrow

25     containing the number 1 is pointing to you?

Page 16503

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Is it correct that the red arrow containing the number 2 is

 3     pointing to Arkan?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. WEBER:  At this time the Prosecution tenders the still.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  I hesitated to object when my learned friend tried

 7     to use this video.  But I do object to its use, and I do object to its

 8     being tendered.

 9             As I understand -- or understood Your Honours' guidance on the

10     admission of the evidence of documents tendered by the Prosecution during

11     the Defence case, dated the 26th of August, 2011, there has to be, first

12     of all, a good reason to use a document.  That reason being to elicit

13     evidence.  And secondly, an even better reason, to actually tender a

14     document.

15             The witness -- sorry.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me perhaps --

17             Mr. Weber, I think the witness said that he was present during

18     the funeral.  What's the -- is there any further purpose of --

19             MR. WEBER:  I do have.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You have a further purpose.  So there will be a

21     follow-up.  Then I suggest that we --

22             Mr. Jordash, we will first hear what the follow-up will be and

23     then decide on admission.  Because if it's just to have confirmed that he

24     was there, which, I take it, will not be in dispute that much and which

25     is in line with the testimony of the witness, we wouldn't need to look at

Page 16504

 1     it, is it?

 2             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I -- I'm going to show a second clip and

 3     also --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll see --

 5             MR. WEBER:  -- and also --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll see what the follow-up is.  Meanwhile, we'll

 7     ask Madam Registrar to assign a number.  That is, clip and still?

 8             MR. WEBER:  I'm going to use a second clip from the same 65 ter.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

10             MR. WEBER:  I can tender them again together, if that's easier.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's then -- perhaps then we leave it for

12     the time being.  Please proceed.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, just for the record also, the

14     Prosecution did mention that a version of this video is already on its

15     exhibit list; therefore, it is not fresh evidence.

16        Q.   At this time I would ask Mr. Laugel to please play clip 2 from

17     65 ter 7316.  This clip comes from the same documentary.  I'm going to

18     ask Mr. Laugel to play this clip without any audio for the witness.  The

19     duration of the clip is 9 seconds and corresponds to the

20     1-minute, 35-second, to 1-minute, 44-second segment.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this as footage of Badza's funeral?

24        A.   Yes.  But how come that in the first part of the clip Arkan and I

25     were in the third row, and now he is immediately after Milosevic?

Page 16505

 1             There were stories brought by the Serbian media --

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... sir -- sir --

 3        A.   -- that this still, this image --

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... sir --

 5        A.   -- was falsified so as to put him right next to Milosevic.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You were asked whether this is footage from

 7     the funeral.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... it is?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So you reject whatever may have been said

12     about it being a falsification or -- I would have difficulties if I see

13     two people -- but, of course, what you could do is compare, for example,

14     the coat of Mr. Milosevic.  He was -- or the tie he was wearing that day.

15     But, okay, your answer is, "it is," on whatever basis.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

17             MR. WEBER:

18        Q.   Was this footage taken after the procession that we earlier

19     watched?

20        A.   I suppose so.  According to Serbian customs, you walk in a

21     procession up to the grave and then you stand by the grave during the

22     burial itself.  So I suppose that the answer should be yes.

23        Q.   Now, during your evidence here so far you've maintained that

24     Arkan and Milosevic did not have much of a relationship, if I were to

25     paraphrase it.  In this video-clip that we just saw, it appears that

Page 16506

 1     Arkan is in the very immediate proximity of Slobodan Milosevic.  Did you

 2     personally see Arkan and President Milosevic interact during this

 3     funeral?

 4        A.   No, there was no interaction at all.  The fact that somebody may

 5     be seen standing next to somebody else, I don't see that as a problem.

 6     I -- and I did not see them actually talking in the footage.

 7        Q.   Were you with Arkan throughout the entire funeral?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Were you present at the grave-site, and did you view the

10     grave-site ceremonies?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did Jovica Stanisic play any role during these grave-site

13     ceremonies?

14        A.   I don't remember any such thing.

15        Q.   Well, did you watch any individuals in uniform fold a flag at the

16     grave-site and see that flag provided to Mr. Stojicic's family?

17        A.   I don't remember that particular moment.  But it is part of the

18     usual custom.  If a high official is buried, a folded flag is handed over

19     to his family.  I suppose that this was done by people wearing police

20     uniforms, because I saw them in the first part of the video-clip, in the

21     procession, next to the coffin, wearing police uniforms.

22             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders the two clips

23     under 65 ter numbers 6316 and the still under 6316.1 as public exhibits.

24     The reason that we're doing this is because the witness has challenged

25     the relationship between Arkan and Milosevic and we are now offering

Page 16507

 1     those in that context.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is then established by them being on the

 3     same funeral.

 4             MR. WEBER:  In part.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  In part.  And not too far away from each other.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar informs me that the video is not in

 8     the system.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, we will remedy that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll hear from you once it has been remedied.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   Yesterday, at transcript page 16458, you stated that the offices

14     of the Party of Serbian Unity were located at the same address as one of

15     the headquarters of the SDG, on Ljutice Bogdana Street in Belgrade.

16             Did members of the SDG enlist at this location between 1991 and

17     1995?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6353.

20        Q.   Sir, what I'm calling up is an advertisement for the Serbian

21     Volunteer Guard which was published in "Srpsko Jedinstvo," the Party of

22     Serbian Unity publication; is that correct?

23        A.   It is correct.

24        Q.   How often did the Party of Serbian Unity produce its publication?

25        A.   I was the editor-in-chief of the magazine.  It was published

Page 16508

 1     monthly, once a month.

 2        Q.   Were advertisements for the Serbian Volunteer Guard included in

 3     each of these publications?

 4        A.   No, not in each of them.

 5        Q.   How regularly were they included?

 6        A.   Not that often.  It's really very hard for me to say that after

 7     such a long time.  I would say a few times.  Not regularly.

 8        Q.   Are you familiar with the photograph in this advertisement?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you know where this photograph was taken?

11        A.   In Erdut.

12        Q.   Were you present when this photograph was taken?

13        A.   I was not.  It was taken before I joined the Guards.

14        Q.   That would be in 1991; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is the tank depicted in this photograph one of the tanks that you

17     referred to earlier in your testimony this week?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. WEBER:  If we could please focus on the crest at the bottom.

20        Q.   Sir, is it correct that this is one of the crests of the Serbian

21     Volunteer Guard?

22        A.   Yes.  This was the official crest of the SDG.

23             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 6353 into

24     evidence as a public exhibit.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I object again on the same

Page 16509

 1     basis: that I can't understand the relevance, I don't understand why this

 2     is adduced by the Prosecution at this time, nor do I understand why they

 3     want to rely upon it at this time.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So relevance is primarily the issue.

 5             MR. WEBER:  It's relevant to show the relationship between the

 6     Party of Serbian Unity producing advertisements in its own publications

 7     in the Serbian Volunteer Guard.  The Prosecution submits that the

 8     objection is without merit.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  What's the relevance to the charges, though?  I

10     understand the relevance to Arkan, but I don't understand the relevance

11     to the charges.

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, it's relevant to -- this witness has

13     been brought and he has offered evidence and there's been witnesses

14     brought to discuss their relationships with Arkan and referencing the

15     Party of Serbian Unity and what their activities were.  I believe it is

16     relevant to the credibility of this witness, first, in that there's a

17     nexus as to what was being published in Belgrade related to the Serbian

18     Volunteer Guard and that there was active recruitment of Serbian

19     Volunteer Guard members through the Party of Serbian Unity in Belgrade

20     which were then eventually sent for training.

21             It's relevant to the charges.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.

23             Please proceed.

24             Then, Madam Registrar ...

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6353 will receive number P3065,

Page 16510

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, you've indicated your awareness of a criminal

 5     complaint brought against you by the defence -- or by the SRS in

 6     February 2010.

 7             In relation to these allegations, did you meet with a deputy War

 8     Crimes Prosecutor and officials from the Serbian MUP on the

 9     10th and 17th of February, 2010?

10        A.   As soon as I learned from the media that I was charged with war

11     crimes committed in Zvornik, the following day I went to see

12     Mr. Vukcevic, who was War Crimes Prosecutor.  I handed over my passport,

13     to prove that I did not intend to leave the country, and I said that I

14     would not convey my parliamentary immunity.  And I told him that I was

15     not in Zvornik at the time.  I also attended that meeting at the War

16     Crimes Department in Serbia.

17        Q.   Rest assured, we're going to go through some aspects of this.  If

18     you could please focus on my questions and I will take it through -- go

19     through it with you step by step.

20             It is correct, then, that you met with officials from the Serbian

21     MUP and a deputy from the War Crime Prosecutor's Office on both the

22     10th and the 17th of February, 2010?

23        A.   Not fully.  The first meeting was with Mr. Vukcevic at the

24     prosecutor's office, and the second meeting was at the War Crimes

25     Department at the MUP of Serbia.  The first meeting was not attended by

Page 16511

 1     anybody from the War Crimes Department of the MUP of Serbia.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  On the second meeting, on the 17th of February, 2010,

 3     did you complete a written statement in which you discussed your

 4     knowledge and involvement in the Serbian Volunteer Guard between 1991 and

 5     1995?

 6        A.   Yes.  I provided a statement.

 7        Q.   A copy of your statement was provided to you after you signed

 8     each page; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You have had the opportunity over the course of almost the past

11     two years to review this statement after it was provided to you; correct?

12        A.   Well, yes.

13        Q.   Did your statement accurately reflect what you said on the

14     17th of February, 2010?

15        A.   I would have to see the statement again in order to be able to

16     answer.

17             I don't remember the statement, to be honest, nor did I pay much

18     attention to it, because I was completely innocent of all charges, which

19     was eventually proven.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I've got no idea what is in that

22     statement, but let's be careful here.  That if the witness would answer

23     any question and by those answers possibly incriminate himself, then he

24     should be warned that he is not under an obligation to answer such a

25     question unless he is ordered to do so.  And the Chamber might be

Page 16512

 1     hesitant to give such an order, because it protects against prosecution

 2     before this Tribunal, but not necessarily for national jurisdictions.

 3             I do not know what the state of any investigation or prosecution

 4     is.  But let's be -- my I invite you to be as careful as I would be if I

 5     were in your position.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  And just so --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You know the statement.  I don't know it.

 8             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution is going to call it up.  But just so

 9     the Chamber is aware:  As the witness has indicated, the charges were

10     dismissed.  But we are mainly going into this for the purpose of

11     comparing what he has said so far during his testimony and what he

12     similarly said during the previous statement.  It's not to make any overt

13     allegation that he, in fact, committed certain crimes that he discussed

14     in the statement.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If that's the case.  But I want to be very

16     cautious in this respect.

17             Mr. Pelevic, you may have followed the discussion.  When the

18     charges were dismissed against you, which, of course, the Chamber is not

19     aware of, then I may take it that your statement is not really

20     incriminating yourself, but I just wanted to verify with Mr. Weber that

21     he doesn't put any questions to you which, if you would answer them in

22     accordance with the truth, would tend to incriminate you.  That's because

23     you would have no obligation to answer such question.

24             Mr. Weber will be very cautious in this respect.  And you are

25     aware of the -- your position: that you are not under an obligation to

Page 16513

 1     answer questions that would incriminate yourself.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6355.

 4        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, do you recognise the document that appears before

 5     you as a copy of the statement that you provided on 17 February 2010?

 6             Sir, did you receive a copy of this document?  Is this the copy

 7     that you received?

 8             MR. WEBER:  If the witness could see his signature -- or the

 9     signature at the bottom.

10        Q.   Is this your signature on the page?

11        A.   Well, this is not how I sign my name.  It's very similar to my

12     signature, but I can't claim for a fact that this is my signature.  My

13     signature is a bit longer usually, and you can actually see that for

14     yourself if you look at the document -- documents that I signed

15     yesterday.

16             I'm not sure that this is my signature.

17             MR. WEBER:  Could we go to the last page of the document.  In the

18     B/C/S.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it, yes, that we'll zoom in on the left

20     part of the page.

21             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

22        Q.   At the end of this statement, it says:

23             "I accept the statement that has been read to me as my own, and I

24     am signing."

25             After that phrase, is that your signature that appears at the

Page 16514

 1     bottom of the statement along with a note-taker and other individuals

 2     that were officials of the Republic of Serbia?

 3        A.   Yes, it is possible that this is my signature.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, we are now looking at a page in B/C/S and

 5     a page in English which seem not to be the same.  Is it -- is the one a

 6     translation of the other?

 7             MR. WEBER:  It is, but I do not believe that the English version

 8     has been forwarded to the last page.  I believe we're still looking at

 9     the -- possibly the first page.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but above these signatures, where we see

11     "Borislav Pelevic," where we see "Danijela Antic," and where we see some

12     other names, above that I see text which certainly does not appear in

13     English.

14             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  Could we have the last page of the English

15     translation.

16             Is that better, Your Honour?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And then what we earlier saw, is that the semi-last

18     page?

19             MR. WEBER:  It's the semi-last page.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do not see any signatures.  Let me just have

21     a look at this.

22             Could I have a look at the previous page in English then.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently what we saw before was the first page.

25     I'm a bit confused about the several ... yes.  What was on our screen a

Page 16515

 1     minute ago was the first page.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Correct.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And could we now have a look at -- and the semi-last

 4     page, apparently there are no signatures.  I now understand what caused

 5     my lacking ability to combine what I saw in B/C/S with what I saw in

 6     English.  But it now is clear to me.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   Sir, before we continue with this document, I'd like to ask you a

10     question as to how you remember the precise date --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Have we now established that this is the

12     signature of the witness at the bottom?  I may have missed it, but --

13             MR. WEBER:

14        Q.   Sir, do you recognise -- is this -- is this the statement that

15     you signed?

16        A.   I believe so.

17        Q.   How do you remember the precise date of 10 January 1992 as the

18     date you joined the Serbian Volunteer Guard?

19        A.   That was the first day after the Orthodox Christmas.  It was

20     still a bank holiday.  The 7th was the Orthodox Christmas, and the

21     holiday spilled over onto the next two days, which is why I went there on

22     the 10th.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the B/C/S

24     and English translation of this exhibit.

25        Q.   Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the third

Page 16516

 1     paragraph under the word "statement," which states:

 2             "I became a member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard on

 3     10 February 1992 at the admissions HQ of the SDG in Arkan's house in

 4     Belgrade in the Ljutice Bogdana Street, so I do not have immediate

 5     information about how and in what manner the Guard participated in combat

 6     during the 1991 and in January 1992 in the Republic of Croatia in the

 7     following locations."

 8             One of those locations being Luzac.

 9             "From what the Commander Arkan and other members of the Guard

10     said, I know that the Guard was established on 11 October 1990 in the

11     Pokajnica monastery near Velika Plana.  It participated in the territory

12     of --"

13             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have the next page in the English

14     translation.

15        Q.   "... the Republic of Croatia under the Territorial Defence of

16     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem."

17             On Tuesday you portrayed yourself as quite knowledgeable about

18     the SDG's early activities.  At page 16336, you spoke about how the

19     Serbian Volunteer Guard participated with the military in combat

20     operations in 1991.  In particular, you mentioned the operation at Luzac

21     and how General Bratic and General Biorcevic commanded operations.  On

22     this same page, you go on to describe some operations that you were a

23     part of after you joined the Guard in January 1992.

24             If you had such information that you claim to have directly

25     learned and experienced as a member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, why

Page 16517

 1     did you tell the deputy War Crimes Prosecutor:

 2             "I do not have immediate information about how and in what manner

 3     the Guard participated in the combat during 1991 and January 1992 in the

 4     Republic of Croatia"?

 5        A.   Naturally I couldn't have had any such information, which is what

 6     I said in the course of my testimony yesterday or the day before

 7     yesterday.  I quite simply knew nothing about the events from 1991.  I

 8     had no direct information about those events.  But given what my comrades

 9     in arms volunteers would say and what Commander Arkan and the commander

10     of the Novi Sad Corps, General Andrija Biorcevic, had to say, I did have

11     some indirect information, and this is what I emphasised yesterday.

12        Q.   Okay.  That explains the statement regarding the 1991 combat

13     operations.

14             How about the January 1992?  You've testified now that you

15     directly participated in operations during that time.  However, this

16     statement reflects that you said you had no immediate information about

17     that.

18             What is your explanation?

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could Mr. Weber please

20     provide us with the reference.  Where did the witness say that he

21     directly participated in that operation in January?  I cannot remember

22     that.

23             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... well, I think

24     the request does.

25             Mr. Weber, could you please ...

Page 16518

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I read out that on page 16336 as part of

 2     my earlier -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 3             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... one second.  One second.

 4     Let me find it.

 5             MR. WEBER:  And if there's any confusion, I can further clarify.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You said 16 ...

 7             MR. WEBER:  What I have down here is 16336.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's have a look at it.  That is the 24th.

 9             Mr. Bakrac.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm trying to find the

11     reference.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So do I, Mr. Bakrac.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if I could clarify.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you put something to the witness, then we'd

15     like to know where it is found, what you put to the witness.

16             MR. WEBER:  What I'm referring to is page 16336 --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  --336, yes.

18             MR. WEBER:  -- starting at line 18.  And through the course of

19     the conversations, it appears that the witness is referring to a few

20     smaller-sized operations that he participated in after he arrived in the

21     SDG.

22             If you would like me to, I can confirm whether or not those

23     operations were in January 1992 to make it further clear before posing

24     the next question.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If there's any question about references,

Page 16519

 1     you're always invited and hereby again to put that literally to the

 2     witness and perhaps ask additional questions.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, on Tuesday you testified that you participated in a

 5     few smaller-sized operations after your arrival in Erdut.  Is it correct

 6     that these operations occurred during January 1992?

 7        A.   That's not correct.  I never said that.  I quite clearly said

 8     that training was obligatory for all recruits and that it was to last for

 9     three months.

10        Q.   Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Your answer was -- the first "That's not correct"

12     would have done.  Yes?

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   When did these smaller-sized operations occur when you -- after

16     you arrived?

17        A.   Perhaps that was in May or June, something like that, since first

18     you have a three-months' training course in the Guards and then you go

19     into action.  In my statement I mentioned the operations concerned.

20     There was one with a boat that the Romanian volunteers used within the

21     Croatian guards.  And the other one was a reconnaissance operation.  That

22     was sometime after January.

23        Q.   Is it correct that I'm understanding that you're saying it's

24     in -- after you came back from the Krka monastery in May or June 1992?

25        A.   That's quite correct, after the return.

Page 16520

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I again looked at your first question,

 3     which was:

 4             "How about ... January 1992?  You've testified ... that you

 5     directly participated in the operation [sic] during that time."

 6             Which could not possibly be understood in any different way than

 7     January 1992.  And that's not what the witness testified.  So, therefore,

 8     could you please be very accurate in this respect because it creates

 9     confusion.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Is it correct that you did not participate in any combat

13     operations involving the Serbian Volunteer Guard prior to 1992?

14        A.   Of course.  I wasn't even a member of the Guards prior to 1992.

15        Q.   Is it correct that you did not personally observe how members of

16     the Serbian Volunteer Guard interacted with the Territorial Defence of

17     the SBWS in 1991?

18        A.   I could testify about that and I emphasise certain things.  It

19     was only on the basis of Commander Arkan, when we became close, that I

20     found out certain things.  In 1991, there was no information I could have

21     about that.

22        Q.   At transcript page 16322, when you were asked about how you

23     joined the SDG, you stated:

24             "I went to the recruiting office of the Serbian Volunteer Guard

25     in Belgrade, I volunteered, and then two days later I was transported in

Page 16521

 1     a van to Erdut where the headquarters was, as well as the training centre

 2     of the Serbian Volunteer Guard."

 3             I'd like to direct your attention to the third paragraph from the

 4     bottom of the page, which states, in part:

 5             "When I showed up at the Guard HQ for the first time, I was

 6     received with suspicion, probably because I was very different to a great

 7     majority of other volunteers.  Namely, I already had M.Sc. in economy by

 8     then; I was an MD of a socially-owned company, Sportinvest; and I was

 9     also the president of the Kick-Boxing Federation of Yugoslavia.  I

10     received a cold reception, and I was told that they suspected me of

11     hiding from the law in relation to financial crimes, so they told me they

12     had to run a check on me."

13             What were you asked or told that made you think that they

14     suspected you of running away from the law?

15        A.   What I put down in the statement is correct.  That paragraph is

16     precise.

17             They thought that I, as the managing director of a private

18     company, as a private businessman, that I had violated the law and that I

19     was running from the law as a result of that.  And since I had an MA and

20     I was the only one who had an MA in the Guards, they were suspicious.

21     They wanted to know why I who had an MA and why I who was the manager of

22     a successful company wanted to fight for the Serbian people.  They

23     suspected me as a result of that.  But later they called me.  They said

24     everything was okay.  They checked things up in my company and they

25     checked things up by contacting the general secretary of the

Page 16522

 1     Yugoslav Kickboxing Association.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is, once again, kindly asked to

 3     slow down for the benefit of the interpretation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I again ask you, perhaps if you would make

 5     shorter answers, just focussing on the question, that would also prevent

 6     achieving a speed which cannot be followed by the interpreters.

 7             So please focus very much on the questions.  And you don't have

 8     to explain why your answer is the correct answer, as you often tend to

 9     do.  Just give the answer.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   When you were told that they thought you were hiding from the law

13     and they were going to run a check on you, did it not cross your mind

14     that the Serbian Volunteer Guard was going to check whether you had a

15     criminal background with the Serbian MUP?

16        A.   I wasn't involved in that because I was quite clean and innocent.

17     So this isn't something that crossed my mind.

18             But I have to correct something you said, Mr. Prosecutor.  They

19     didn't say that I was running away from the law.  They said that they

20     suspected me of running from the law.  There is an important distinction

21     to be made there.

22        Q.   How were you different from a majority of the other volunteers?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, isn't it true that the witness has

24     answered this question.

25             He explained to us that his level of education was by far higher

Page 16523

 1     and that his position in society was also at a level not ordinarily found

 2     with the others.

 3             So if you want to learn more about it, then please make a -- put

 4     a question to the witness which -- which he understands that he is not

 5     expected to repeat what he said before.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   I'd like to ask you about how you feel that you're different from

 8     the other volunteers.  So, not with respect to your own personal

 9     background, but with respect to the other volunteers.  How are you

10     distinguishing that, based on who the other volunteers are?

11        A.   As I have already said in the statement, and I already repeated

12     what I said for the benefit of the Presiding Judge, my level of

13     education, my social position, and so on and so forth, was different in

14     relation to that of the other volunteers.

15        Q.   Okay.  Is it correct that the other members of the Serbian

16     Volunteer Guard included criminals?

17        A.   That's not correct.  But I can't claim that perhaps there weren't

18     a certain number of individuals who had previous convictions.  But, as a

19     rule, the SDG had honourable combatants who were fighting for the benefit

20     of the Serbian people.

21        Q.   Was it your understanding that the Serbian Volunteer Guard was a

22     separate organisation from the JNA with its own command structure?

23        A.   Yes.  My brother told me that when he returned from the

24     battle-field where the JNA was.

25        Q.   Is it correct that the Serbian Volunteer Guard was a paramilitary

Page 16524

 1     formation that participated in joint combat operations at different times

 2     with various military formations such as the JNA, VRS, SVK, and VJ?

 3        A.   Given what Commander Arkan and the other guards say -- said,

 4     immediately after arriving in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, the

 5     Serbian Volunteer Guards reported to the TO staff and placed themselves

 6     under the command of the TO of the region of Slavonia, Baranja, and

 7     Western Srem.

 8        Q.   Sir, what I'm asking you is that, based on your experience

 9     between 1992 and 1995, did the Serbian Volunteer Guard exist as its own

10     entity; and through agreements, did it, at different times then go and

11     participate in combat operations with different military structures?

12             Is that an accurate statement?

13        A.   The SDG never took independent action.  As a paramilitary

14     formation from the very beginning, it was part of the TO of the SBWS.

15     And after the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina had established, it

16     became an integral part of that army, and as such it participated in

17     actions with the Army of Yugoslavia and the Army of the MUP of the -- of

18     Republika Srpska.

19        Q.   Did your brother also join the Serbian Volunteer Guard?

20        A.   No.  He was previously a volunteer in the JNA.  He returned home

21     after the 45-day period had expired.  That was the period during which it

22     was necessary to be a volunteer in the JNA.  He told me bad things about

23     their command structure.  After that event, he never became engaged in

24     the military again, so he was never a volunteer in the SDG.

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise for

Page 16525

 1     interrupting.  If I'm not mistaken, I think that at line 22 there was a

 2     misinterpretation.  Towards the end it seems that there is just one

 3     structure that is concerned.  Or, rather, it seems that there are two

 4     structures that are concerned; but, in fact, three structures are

 5     concerned.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pelevic, you -- part of your last answer was

 7     that after the SDG had become a - something - integral part of the Army

 8     of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, "and as such it participated in

 9     action with ..."

10             And could you then repeat what you said?  I think the first

11     entity you mentioned is the Army of Yugoslavia.  And then the second and

12     possibly the third you refer to were what?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Army of Republika Srpska and

14     the MUP of Republika Srpska.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. WEBER:

18        Q.   Directing your attention to the next paragraph, I believe it's

19     the second paragraph from the bottom of the page, which states:

20             "After they completed a background check on me, they told me I

21     was clean on 10 February 1992 and I was dispatched to the Erdut training

22     centre for training.  The Guard HQ and seat were located there."

23             Is it correct that you reported to the location in Belgrade at

24     Ljutice Bogdana Street before going to Erdut?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 16526

 1        Q.   Regardless of whether it is in January or February, when within

 2     the two-day period that you've indicated were you informed that this

 3     check was completed?

 4        A.   I think it was the following day.  As early as that.  I'm not

 5     sure.  Perhaps a day or two later.  But that was 20 years ago, sir.

 6        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, in light of the fact that Radovan Stojicic, Badza,

 7     had been appointed officially as an assistant minister of the Serbian MUP

 8     and it took a day to do a background check, do you maintain that the SDG

 9     had no involvement with the Serbian MUP?

10        A.   Absolutely.  Given what my officials said, I know that checkups

11     were made in my company to see whether the company was making losses,

12     checkups were made in the kick-box association of Yugoslavia to see

13     whether I had embezzled money, or something like that.  The responses

14     were quite decisive, and I think that was quite sufficient for the HQ in

15     Belgrade to call me and inform me of the fact that they found that I was

16     clean.

17        Q.   Okay.  So you're presenting evidence that the SDG did not look

18     into your criminal background by asking with the Serbian MUP.

19             Is that what we're supposed to understand from this?

20        A.   I never had a criminal file, a criminal record.

21        Q.   I'm not saying whether you did.  But in terms of their

22     verification --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to get things straight.

24             You told us, Mr. Pelevic, that a check on your background was

25     done.  Do you know how exactly that was done?

Page 16527

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have said, I have information

 2     according to which they went to my office to see my secretary and the

 3     financial director and they tried to see what the situation of the

 4     company was.  They also checked -- or, rather, made checks in the

 5     Yugoslav kick-box association, kickboxing association, whose president I

 6     was.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, would you exclude for the possibility that they

 8     would have contacted the MUP and say, "Is Mr. Pelevic known with a

 9     criminal record?"  Or ... would you exclude for that possibility?  Do you

10     know whether it happened?  Do you know that it did not happen?

11             What's your position in relation to that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't exclude that

13     possibility, but I have no information to that effect.  I don't know how

14     checks are made, because I've never had a criminal record.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:

17        Q.   At transcript pages --

18             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to interrupt.  Would we be able to have a

19     break, please?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I think it's approximately time for a

21     break.

22             We'll have a break.  And we resume at 12.30.

23                           --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.34 p.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, please proceed.

Page 16528

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Welcome back, Mr. Pelevic.

 3             At transcript pages 16322 and 16324, you refer to a sergeant who

 4     you shared a room with once you arrived in Erdut.

 5             Could you please tell us his name and nickname?

 6        A.   I would gladly, but I don't remember.  I remember him telling me

 7     that he had previously worked as a waiter in a Belgrade's café-bar.  He

 8     left the SDG soon thereafter.

 9        Q.   Approximately how long were you his room-mate?

10        A.   The whole of the three days while I was cleaning the barracks'

11     perimeter from cigarette butts and the rest of the garbage.  After that I

12     was transferred to the dorm and joined the rest of the troops there.

13        Q.   Today you discussed Ilija Kojic and made references to

14     relationship of his with the Serbian DB.  How did you come by this

15     information?

16        A.   From Commander Arkan.

17        Q.   And what did Arkan tell you?

18        A.   I don't remember the details of that conversation.  I did not see

19     much of Ilija Kojic later.  He was not important for the SDG at the time,

20     although he was effectively our superior.  However, we didn't have much

21     to do with him.

22        Q.   When Arkan was -- and you were discussing Ilija Kojic, do you

23     recall at all what he said about the Serbian DB?

24        A.   He said that they were our opponents; that they were trying to

25     expel us from Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem; that Ilija Kojic

Page 16529

 1     worked for them; and that both Milovanovic, Mrgud, and

 2     President Goran Hadzic were against Ilija Kojic.

 3        Q.   Is it correct that this conversation occurred in 1992?

 4        A.   I can't remember when.  Perhaps in late 1992 or perhaps early

 5     1993.  I really can't remember; therefore, I can't give a precise answer

 6     to your question.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please return to 65 ter 6355

 8     which we see may already be up.  Page 3 in the B/C/S and page 4 of the

 9     English translation.

10        Q.   Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the top paragraph on

11     this page of your statement from 17 February 2010, which states:

12             "At that time, SDG had 400 members.  And from the establishment

13     point of view, it was a reinforced battalion in strength.  It had three

14     companies in its composition and they were further split into platoons,

15     but I don't remember how many platoons were in each company.  Each

16     company was commanded by the company commander," in B/C/S 'komandir,'

17     "ranked as a lieutenant in the Guard and platoons were commanded by

18     sergeants.  I don't remember now the names of the company commanders, but

19     I remember their nicknames, as that is how we addressed each other.  We

20     called the commander of my company, the 2nd Company, Zemunac.  He was

21     from Zemun and was a keen boat or kayak rower.  Zika was the commander of

22     the 1st company, and I know that he got killed in Zvornik.  The commander

23     of the 3rd Company was Ivan Okiljevic, aka Rambo, who also got killed in

24     Zvornik.  Please note that Zemunac was the commander until my departure

25     to the Krka monastery, but by the time I returned from that position he

Page 16530

 1     had left the Guard.  After him, the commander of my company was

 2     Milorad Ulemek, aka Legija, who I found in that position on my return

 3     from the Krka monastery.  I heard that he had deflected [sic] from the

 4     Foreign Legion and joined the Guard in Zvornik."

 5             First, is this statement accurate as to the structure of the

 6     Serbian Volunteer Guard in the spring of 1992, between January and May?

 7        A.   Establishment-wise, there were three companies which were split

 8     into platoons.  So, yes, this is correct.

 9        Q.   Do you know the name of the person you are referring to as

10     Zemunac?

11        A.   I remember his first name, Srdjan.  However, yes.  You asked me

12     it tell you his name.  Should we perhaps go into private session for

13     that?

14        Q.   Is -- is it --

15             MR. WEBER:  That's fine, Your Honour, if the witness is more

16     comfortable with that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me ...

18             In itself, if you mention a name, there's no need to go into

19     private session unless there's any specific reason for that.  If you

20     consider that it would have a certain affect on this man, then we could

21     consider that.  But the mere fact that you're mentioning a name doesn't

22     justify to go into private session.

23             Do you prefer to go in private session?  Then please give the

24     reasons.  You could do that even in private session.  Or do you say, "No,

25     we can continue in public session"?

Page 16531

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was not aware of the

 2     procedure.  That's why I asked.

 3             There's no need to go into private session.

 4             His name is Srdjan Bulatovic.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   What is the full name of the person with the nickname Zika who

 7     died in Zvornik?

 8        A.   We called him Major Zika.  I know that he was a taxi driver as a

 9     civilian.  He worked in Belgrade.  His family name was Zivanovic.  I

10     don't know what his first name was, whether it was, indeed, Zika or

11     something else.  I can't remember.

12        Q.   Is the person that you're referring to as Rambo, Ivan Okiljevic,

13     a different Rambo than Nenad Bujosevic who was known as Veliki Rambo?

14        A.   No.  This one was the first Rambo.  The other one was

15     Veliki Rambo.  There was a third Rambo.  The third Rambo, as we called

16     him, or Little Rambo.

17        Q.   Is it correct that third Rambo was nicknamed Mali Rambo, and do

18     you know his name?

19        A.   I don't know his name.  I know that he was short; hence little or

20     Mali Rambo.  He had a good sense of humour.  He was a very popular

21     volunteer.  He used to entertain us with his jokes.  I can't remember his

22     name.

23        Q.   Is it correct that Marko Pejic also went to Bijeljina and Zvornik

24     in April 1992?

25        A.   I don't know about Bijeljina.  I know that he was in Zvornik,

Page 16532

 1     though.

 2        Q.   After April 1992, did you continue to remain subordinate to

 3     Legija during your time in the Serbian Volunteer Guard?

 4        A.   Establishment-wise, yes.  But for a short time.  Later on I was a

 5     very independent training instructor in the Guard.

 6        Q.   You just said:  "But for a short time."

 7             What time-period are you referring to.

 8        A.   A month, perhaps two months.  Not more.

 9        Q.   Of what year?

10        A.   1992.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could I seek clarification of one of the

12     answers.

13             You were asked whether the person you were referring to as Rambo,

14     Ivan, was a different Rambo than Nenad, and then a name follows.

15             And then your answer is:

16             "No.  This one is [sic] the first Rambo."

17             Now, apparently, in the statement we read a person by the first

18     name Ivan, and Mr. Weber says, Is this the same as Nenad.  Did he have

19     two first names?  Or what explains the --

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I was actually trying to clarify that

21     there are different Rambos that are referred to in the Serbian Volunteer

22     Guard, saying that the one referred to here is not the same as

23     Nenad Bujosevic, known as --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Not the same.

25             MR. WEBER:  Not the same.

Page 16533

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check that.

 2             MR. WEBER:  I believe it's on page 57, lines 9 and 10.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see.  The question was:

 4             "Is the person that you're referring to as Rambo, Ivan ... a

 5     different Rambo than Nenad ...?"

 6             And the answer was:

 7             "No.  This one was the first Rambo."

 8             And for us then to understand that it was a different person is

 9     not obvious.  I do advise you to not only put the questions but also to

10     listen careful to the answers and see to what extent they can create

11     confusion.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. WEBER:

14        Q.   Sir, is the person that you're referring to in your statement,

15     Ivan Okiljevic a different Rambo, a different person, than the person who

16     is later known as Veliki Rambo, that other person being Nenad Bujosevic?

17        A.   Yes, we're talking about two completely different individuals.

18        Q.   And we've discussed a third person that was known as Mali Rambo;

19     is that correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Were you subordinate to Legija in 1994 and 1995?

22        A.   No, I was not subordinated to Legija.

23        Q.   Could you please explain.

24        A.   Gladly.

25             After I was wounded, I was no longer fit for military service.  I

Page 16534

 1     was wounded in the shoulder as well as in my left leg.  Those were both

 2     serious wounds.  So I could no longer serve under anybody's command.

 3             MR. WEBER:  If we could please go to the lower portion of the

 4     statement that's up on the screen in the English.

 5        Q.   And, sir, I'm directing your attention to the paragraph in which

 6     you state:

 7             "I arrived in the monastery on 29 March 1992 and stayed there

 8     till 25 April 1992 when I returned to Belgrade since my wife had given

 9     birth.  I was granted five days' leave, after which I returned to Erdut

10     and was awarded a rank of 2nd Lieutenant for the well-executed task in

11     the Krka monastery."

12             Does this statement accurately reflect the dates in which you

13     were away at the Krka monastery and then went to Belgrade?

14        A.   Yes.  I suppose that the dates are correct.  Because I was

15     supposed to prepare for that meeting about that time.

16        Q.   Is it correct that you provided materials in support of your

17     statement concerning your whereabouts in April 1992 to the War Crime

18     Prosecutor's Office in Serbia?

19             These materials you provided included four letters from your wife

20     that was sent to the monastery; three photographs of you at the

21     monastery; and a book with an inscription from the priest at the

22     monastery, dated 10 April 1992.

23             Did you provide those materials in support of your statement?

24        A.   Yes, I did.  That's correct.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Weber.

Page 16535

 1             I was informed, Mr. Pelevic, that are you in this courtroom in

 2     possession of a mobile phone and that you are using it in whatever way

 3     through SMS or that you are ...

 4             Could I invite you to switch it off.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it has been switched

 6     off.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, earlier it was reported to me that you

 8     took it out of your pocket and that you -- well, used it in whatever way.

 9     Could I --

10             Yes, Mr. Jordash.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I observed from here.  And

12     what happened is that his phone went off and he reached into his pocket

13     and turned it off.  That's how I saw it from here.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, then that has been now clarified to me.  It

15     happened to me once in the last ten years that my phone went off in this

16     the courtroom, Mr. Pelevic.  So it is, although rare, it does happen now

17     and then, and I'm glad that you switched it off.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. WEBER:

20        Q.   All of these materials concerning your whereabouts in April 1992

21     were returned to you after you provided your statement in February 2010;

22     correct?

23        A.   I believe so.  But I can't remember, actually.

24        Q.   Did you ever provide any of these materials to the

25     Simatovic Defence?

Page 16536

 1        A.   I don't think so.  They never asked me to do that.  Nobody ever

 2     asked for those.

 3        Q.   Are you in possession of those materials here in The Hague this

 4     week?

 5        A.   No.  I didn't know that they would be required, that I was

 6     supposed to bring them.

 7        Q.   Is it correct that during your interview on the

 8     17th of February, 2010, you were provided with a copy of the criminal

 9     complaint that was submitted by the Defence of Vojislav Seselj?

10        A.   I don't think that I have ever seen that criminal complaint.

11        Q.   During the course of your interviews, did you learn the identity

12     of any protected witness who may have been referred in a criminal

13     complaint?  If you did, could you please not say the name of the witness,

14     if you learned this information.

15        A.   Yes, I did.  I learned about three different individuals.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, would you like to go into private session

18     for this purpose?  Or ...

19             MR. WEBER:  I do not plan to actually use the name of the witness

20     and was going to stay in open session.  However, I did want to learn if

21     the witness knew the identity of a protected witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             So please refrain from mentioning any name.  You didn't do that,

24     so you were cautious as well.

25             You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

Page 16537

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Did you learn that this witness never actually identified you, as

 3     stated in the allegations that were brought by the Seselj Defence team?

 4        A.   Yes.  Prosecutor Vukcevic told me that.

 5             MR. WEBER:  For cross-reference for the Chamber, the Prosecution

 6     would refer to Exhibit P113.

 7        Q.   Now, during this interview you were also shown some photographs

 8     which were marked, I believe, during your interview as

 9     numbers 1 through 7; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P117;

12     e-court page 9.

13        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, is it correct that you made the following

14     observations of this photograph, and I quote from your February 2010

15     statement:

16             "A member of the Guard whom we called Suca and who got killed is

17     in the forefront of the photograph marked number 5 where he is holding a

18     green flag in his right hand.  I cannot recognise the three men with

19     Balaclavas and I cannot recognise the person on the outmost right of the

20     photograph, although his face is visible, as there were around

21     500 combatants at that time and I did not have to remember them all,

22     particularly because some 10.000 combatants went through the Guard during

23     the times of the war."

24             Does this statement accurately reflect what you said about this

25     photograph?

Page 16538

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Okay.  In your comments to the Serbian War Crimes Prosecutor's

 3     Office, you said "... were around 500 combatants at that time," in

 4     reference to this photograph.

 5             What time are you referring to?

 6        A.   I don't know where the photo was taken.  I suppose that it was

 7     taken in the Republika Srpska because I recognise the flag that belonged

 8     to the Muslim forces.

 9             I really don't know when or where the photo was taken.

10        Q.   When you were previously shown this photo, you identified Suca.

11     Is it correct that the full name of this person is Nebojsa Djordjevic?

12        A.   It is correct.

13        Q.   What type of weapon is Suca holding?

14        A.   The photo is rather dark.  It's very hard for me to discern the

15     weapon.  I believe that he is carrying what I believe is an automatic

16     rifle in his left hand.  But I can't be sure.

17        Q.   Is it correct that Suca is wearing a Motorola on his vest which

18     was used by members of the SDG to communicate during combat operations?

19        A.   Yes, I can see a Motorola.

20        Q.   Were these Motorolas used by the SDG to communicate during combat

21     operations?

22        A.   The officers and junior officers did use such devices, but not

23     all soldiers.

24        Q.   How would the officers and junior officers use these devices

25     during combat operations?

Page 16539

 1        A.   We had codes, and we would call each other up by using those

 2     codes if we wanted to contact a certain officer or junior officer.

 3        Q.   Okay.  How would these codes be provided to the officers and

 4     junior officers?

 5        A.   I received the code "Tiger 22."  Usually it would be based on the

 6     date of birth of the officer or junior officer in question.  That would

 7     be his code.  If someone was born on the 15th of any month, then that

 8     person's code would be Tigers 15.

 9        Q.   Is it correct that the code "99" was assigned to Arkan?

10        A.   Yes.  He used that code throughout the war-time-period.

11        Q.   And when you say "throughout the war-time-period," are you saying

12     that you have direct knowledge of that between 1992 and 1995?  For

13     example, did you ever use Motorolas to personally contact him by using

14     the code "99"?

15        A.   Yes, towards the end of that year.  The end of 1992.

16             We addressed him as "Commander," as a rule.  But sometimes, for

17     conspiratorial reasons, we called him "99," which was his war-time code.

18        Q.   Is it correct that Suca was killed after the war?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have e-court page 8 of

21     this same exhibit.

22        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, did you provide these following comments to the

23     Serbian War Crimes Prosecutor about this photograph:

24             "Commander Arkan is in the middle of the photograph number 6.  To

25     the left of him, on his right side, is the above-mentioned Suca.  And to

Page 16540

 1     the right of him, i.e., on his left side, is a person who bent his head

 2     and has a beret which prevents me from recognizing his face.  I also do

 3     not recognise the other people on this photograph whose faces are only

 4     partially visible."

 5             Does that accurately describe your statement on this photograph?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   Do you know when this photograph was taken?

 8        A.   I wouldn't know.

 9        Q.   Do you know where this photograph was taken?

10        A.   I don't know.  You can't see any indications.

11        Q.   A question not related to the photograph:  Is it correct that

12     Suca participated in the Velika Kladusa operations at the end of 1994 and

13     beginning of 1995?

14        A.   I couldn't answer that question.  I don't know.  Perhaps he did;

15     perhaps he didn't.  I can't speculate.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             In the comments I have read to you about the earlier photograph,

18     you stated that:  "... some 10.000 combatants went through the Guard

19     during the times of war."

20             Who are the 10.000 people that you are referring to?

21        A.   I can't claim that there were 10.000 people exactly, but there

22     was several thousand men who went through the Guards and were trained.

23     They first had a one-month period there, and then three-month periods.

24     The composition of the men kept changing.  Some would come, some would

25     leave.  So it was very difficult to assess how many volunteers there were

Page 16541

 1     in the centre, how many had been trained, how many had left.  But

 2     throughout that period of time, my assessment would be that there were

 3     about 10.000 of them.

 4        Q.   You're referring to throughout a period of time.  Is that between

 5     1991 and 1995?

 6        A.   Yes.  I have the entire war-time-period in mind.  There were a

 7     lot of volunteers who would join up in Republika Srpska, for example.  So

 8     the number was constantly changing.

 9        Q.   Were all these people a part of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, or

10     were there individuals who came from other units or military structures

11     that were also trained there?  For example, like, SVK army members or VRS

12     or VJ members.

13        A.   There were men from the SVK.  I know that because some SVK troops

14     joined my company when we went to Benkovac in January --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter heard the year 2003.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please repeat the year.  Benkovac in January of what

17     year?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1993.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   Would the training that would be provided to these men from the

22     SVK, or individuals from the SVK, was it the same training that you

23     yourself received as a member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard?

24        A.   No, it wasn't the same form of training, since, at the time, they

25     already had some military experience.  So they didn't require physical

Page 16542

 1     training, just the basics of war strategy and -- and warfare.  Nothing

 2     else.

 3        Q.   When the individuals from the SVK came to the training, were

 4     members of the Serbian Volunteer Guard able to discipline and impose

 5     penalties upon them?

 6        A.   While they were part of the SDG, they had to abide by SDG rules.

 7     But we're dealing with a very brief period of time and with a very small

 8     number of men.

 9        Q.   Is it correct, then, that these individuals, after being trained

10     by the SDG, would return to the units that they had been a part of?

11        A.   Three-month contracts weren't signed with them so they could

12     freely return to their units, having completed the task.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could I seek clarification of one of the

14     answers.

15             You said:  "... very brief period of time."

16             How long?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About a week.  Not more than that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  "A very small number of men."

19             How long -- how many?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our unit left with about 500 men to

21     the Benkovac battle-field towards the end of January 1993.  I assume that

22     there was about -- a company from the SVK that had been attached to us in

23     order to bring our men up to strength.

24             So I would say that there weren't more than a hundred men.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If I understand you well, then, therefore, that only

Page 16543

 1     a hundred men during approximately one week were trained in the centre,

 2     which were, to say so, outsiders and not from the SDG, and all others

 3     trained there were SDG members.

 4             Is that correctly understood?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have understood me correctly.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6351.

 9        Q.   Sir, before you is a video still of a photograph that was

10     broadcast on B92.  Do you recognise this photograph?

11        A.   I do.

12        Q.   Do you appear in this photograph?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   I'm going to go through with you in a second who everyone is in

15     this photograph.  But if could you please tell us, first, When and where

16     was this photo taken?

17        A.   The photograph was taken in Erdut.  I don't know the year.

18     Perhaps in 1994.  Something like that.  But this photograph was taken in

19     a studio.  It was taken for our calendar.

20             You can see in the background that we have some sort of cloth

21     that is usually used when photographs are taken in studios.

22        Q.   Starting with the top row, could you please identify the

23     individual on the left and then the individual on the right.

24        A.   Yes.  To the left, you can see Major Dimitrije Jasek, also know

25     as Mita, who was killed in Velika Kladusa.  To the right, you can see

Page 16544

 1     Milorad Lukovic, Legija.  Below him, to the right, you can see

 2     Commander Arkan.  And to the left, you can see me.

 3        Q.   It appears that you are holding a shotgun in this photo.  Was

 4     this the type of weapons that the SDG would use in combat operations?

 5        A.   No.  Shotguns are used for hunting.  They weren't used in combat

 6     operations.  This is something I had just for the photograph.  I always

 7     had an M-70 automatic rifle on me.

 8        Q.   Could you please tell us the type of weapon that Arkan is holding

 9     and whether or not that was used by the SDG in combat operations?

10        A.   He is holding a small automatic Heckler rifle.  It's made by

11     Heckler & Koch.

12             As I have already said, I said that yesterday or the day before,

13     only some officers used such weapons.  But I said it wasn't a combat

14     weapon.  It's a weapon that is used more for urban combat, not in the

15     battle-field.

16        Q.   What type of weapon is Legija holding in the upper right corner;

17     and did the SDG use those type of weapons?

18        A.   It's a carbine.  It's also a hunting weapon.  We never used that

19     sort of weapon either.  It's not an appropriate weapon for the

20     battle-field.

21        Q.   Lastly, with respect to Mita in the upper left, what type of

22     weapon is he holding; and did the SDG use that type of weapon in combat

23     operations?

24        A.   You can't see it quite clearly, but I think it's a machine-gun, a

25     light machine-gun; and such weapons were used in military operations.

Page 16545

 1        Q.   It appears that on Arkan's right sleeve that a patch is visible.

 2     Are you able to recognise this as the Tiger patch of the Serbian

 3     Volunteer Guard?

 4             Please let us know if you need us to zoom in.

 5        A.   It's not necessary.

 6             I can see the Tiger patch.

 7        Q.   It does not appear from this photo that any other patches are

 8     visible.  Is it correct that the Serbian Volunteer Guard would not always

 9     wear patches related to the Krajina military?

10        A.   On the sleeves of the combatants here, I can't even see the

11     insignia, the patches.  I can't see what Arkan has on his right-hand

12     side.  As far as I can see, I don't have anything on my left arm.  But I

13     don't know when the photograph was taken, as I said.  It's not that

14     important.

15        Q.   I'll come back to that in a second.

16             The members of the Serbian Volunteer Guard who wore uniforms, did

17     they have velcro on their sleeves which allowed patches to be attached

18     and removed?

19        A.   On the whole, yes.  But, unfortunately, from the Army of the

20     Republic of Serbian Krajina, we didn't receive any patches that could be

21     simply put on the velcro.  The patches we received had to be sewn on.

22     There were two such patches.  Patches for officers did have velcro.  But

23     for the troops, for the army, you had to sew them in, sew them on.  They

24     were green.  But officers had blue patches, as far as I can remember.  I

25     think that was the situation.  It said, or the inscription read: The

Page 16546

 1     Serbian Army of Krajina.

 2        Q.   Do I understand correctly that you had, then, separate uniforms,

 3     uniforms that had the Krajina patch permanently sewn on and then

 4     different uniforms that had velcro that could attach and remove patches?

 5             Do I understand that correctly?

 6        A.   You have understood me correctly.

 7             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders the exhibit,

 8     65 ter 6351.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6351 will receive number P3066,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   During your testimony there's been a discussion of a large

16     convoy, which you've also mentioned just a moment ago, of SDG personnel

17     who deployed to the western part of the RSK in early 1993.

18             Is it correct that this large convoy of SDG personnel, in which

19     you personally deployed, was the only time that you participated in a

20     convoy as a member of the SDG?

21             I guess the easier way of asking that was:  Aside from the convoy

22     in early 1993, did you participate in any other large convoys of SDG

23     members?

24        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, let me correct you.  I didn't dispatch that

25     convoy.  I was in that convoy.  It was the only convoy with which I

Page 16547

 1     travelled amongst so many men.

 2        Q.   Okay.  That is what I meant to refer to.

 3             So it's clear:  As a SDG member, the only convoy which you

 4     travelled in was the one in early 1993; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P2616.

 7        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, this is a SVK Main Staff security and intelligence

 8     report dated 20 February 1993.

 9             I'd like to direct your attention to the paragraph of the report

10     that says:

11             "Zeljko Raznjatovic, aka Arkan, commands his units, allegedly

12     pays 5.000 DM, and they are not interested in defending the territory but

13     in taking control of Zadar in order to loot the local banks' gold and

14     foreign currency."

15             Is it correct that members of the Serbian Volunteer Guard were

16     paid 5.000 Deutschemark during your deployment to the western part of the

17     Krajina in early 1993?

18        A.   It says 5.000 German marks here, Mr. Prosecutor.

19        Q.   Yes.  Were you paid that amount in the spring of 1993 during

20     these -- during your operations, your deployment?

21        A.   We weren't paid a cent.  This is a lie spread by the secret Army

22     of Vojna Krajina.

23             Who could have given 500 soldiers 5.000 German marks a month?

24        Q.   Well, sir, isn't this the army that you claim to be a part of?

25        A.   That was the army's secret service.  Yes.

Page 16548

 1        Q.   Wouldn't the army's secret service of the army that you claim to

 2     be a part of know about your activities?

 3        A.   Sir, this information should be checked.  And the security

 4     administration of the Main Staff should be informed, as far as I can see

 5     here.

 6        Q.   Do you know why they were sending it to the VJ, this information?

 7     If you could please read on in the report.

 8        A.   It's a fact that every army has its security service.  These

 9     services are always in conflict [Realtime transcript read in error

10     "contact"] with the MUP security service or with certain units, such as

11     the SDG.  These things here -- it's a matter of laying an ambush for the

12     SDG, because who could have 500 soldiers and pay each one 5.000 marks?  I

13     think these security services do this.  It's common practice.  They're

14     always in conflict [Realtime transcript read in error "contact"] with

15     each other.  And that was the case in the Army of Yugoslavia and in the

16     Army of Republika Srpska and in the Serbian state security.  They're

17     always against us because we were always in their way.

18             It also mentions taking control of Zadar.  That was never the

19     objective of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina or of the SDG.

20     As part of that army, why would we take Zadar?  We just wanted to

21     liberate Maslenica, that had been taken by the Croatian forces which

22     committed war crimes in flagrant violation of the agreement that had been

23     reached.

24        Q.   Okay.  With respect to what you just said, you say with respect

25     to the security services that they're always in contact with each other.

Page 16549

 1     How did you know that the security services communicated or were in

 2     contact with one another?

 3        A.   I know that because General Andrija Biorcevic continued to warn

 4     the commander and myself, and he told us to watch out for the security

 5     services, the army's security service and the police's security service.

 6     He told us to be wary of them.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I try to understand one of your last

 9     question:

10             "Do you know why they were sending it to the VJ, this

11     information?"

12             Now, I see the document, apparently one -- the Main Staff of the

13     RSK sending information to others which they say they have received from

14     the Security Administration of the Army of the Federal Republic of

15     Yugoslavia.

16             Now, who exactly did you mean by "they"?  Is that those who

17     provided the information to the security administration of the Army of

18     the Federal Republic?  Is that ...

19             It was just --

20             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- a bit unclear who you refer to.  And I don't know

22     whether the witness was perhaps not very -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

23             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if I may be permitted, I will try to

24     clarify.  And thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 16550

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Sir, the document before you, in one of the final paragraphs,

 3     says:

 4             "This information," reflecting the information in this report,

 5     "is forwarded to you so that you should check the data and take measures

 6     to prevent the above-mentioned deviant behaviour."

 7             There's then a request:

 8             "Please forward the information to the UB of the GS,"

 9     General Staff, "of the VJ," Yugoslav Army.

10             Do you know whether the security and intelligence administration

11     of the RSK, why they would be forwarding or submit a request to forward

12     information to the General Staff of the VJ, security administration?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

15             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... could we very

16     carefully look at it.

17             Who is saying what, Mr. Weber?  The document starts by saying:

18             "We have received the following information from the

19     security administration."

20             And then there follows a text, which is in quotation marks.

21             Now, if you were asking why the intelligence of the

22     administration of the RSK would do what is -- what you read --

23             MR. WEBER:  Right.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- what we see is that the request is the request as

25     quoted, apparently coming from the security administration of the

Page 16551

 1     General Staff of the Yugoslav army.

 2             So, therefore, your question seems, unless I've misunderstood the

 3     document, seems not to reflect what the document says.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  Your Honour, you're right.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             Mr. Bakrac, that was the matter --

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  This is exactly

 8     what I wanted to raise.  And then you did it -- [Overlapping

 9     speakers] ...

10             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, perhaps I

11     should have --

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] -- instead of me.

13             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... allowed you to

14     do it first.  But it was a question that was prominently on my mind.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Do you know how security administrations from the military would

18     communicate with intelligence services of the Serbian MUP, whether they

19     did; and if so, how?

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this does not arise

21     from this document.

22             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... no --

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] This has been taken out of a

24     different context.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I did not hear in the question put by Mr. Weber that

Page 16552

 1     this relates to this document.  It is a general question, but perhaps it

 2     would have been wiser to inform the witness that this question is

 3     unrelated to what we find in the document.

 4             Could you please repeat the question, Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   Sir, this is a document that does not relate -- this is a

 7     question that does not relate to the document:  Do you know how

 8     security administrations from the military would communicate with

 9     intelligence services such as the Serbian MUP?

10        A.   Are you waiting for my answer?  Or was this an answer to the

11     Presiding Judge's question?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Weber has asked you, has repeated his

13     question, whether you know how security administrations from the military

14     would communicate with intelligence services such as the Serbian MUP.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Weber, how should I know that?

16     How should I be in a position to answer questions about the practices of

17     the security administrations, of the military, or the intelligence

18     services of the Serbian MUP?  None of us in the Guard were familiar with

19     the methodology of the work of either the secret services of the army or

20     the police.  We never reacted to this type of letters.  This -- those

21     were all entrapments set up in order to compromise the SDG, an

22     organisation that was in everybody's way at the time.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   Sir, it's fine if you just let us know if you know or don't know.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6354.

Page 16553

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I, nevertheless, could I ask one question in

 2     relation to your last answer, Mr. Pelevic.

 3             You say this is all comprising the SDG.  Let's look, for example,

 4     at one line saying that the -- let me just check.  No, could I -- I see

 5     there's now another document on the screen.  I would like to have the

 6     previous one back.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, it was Exhibit P2616.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

 9             Yes, it's ... reading this, my first question would be -- the

10     volunteers of the SRS, the Serbian Radical Party detachment,

11     Dragi Lazarevic.  That's where it starts with.  And later it refers to

12     Zeljko Raznjatovic, also known as Arkan, who commands his unit.  And then

13     there's information about that unit.

14             Are the two -- are these two totally separate units, or did they

15     operate together, the Dragi Lazarevic and the units of Arkan?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two completely different units,

17     these are.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is there any possibility for you to verify to

19     what extent the other information is accurate, that is, about the

20     Dragi Lazarevic Detachment?

21             Do you have any information which would allow you to say that

22     this is accurate information or wrong information?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was a

24     Serbian Radical Party unit.  They were the so-called Chetniks.

25             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, well --

Page 16554

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We heard from people when we were

 2     there that their behaviour was not very good, and people complained about

 3     them.  I don't know whether they were under the command of the Army of

 4     Republika Srpska, but in any case, we didn't fight together.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the information you heard about that unit

 6     was that they behaved badly.

 7             So in that respect, at least, the report is in accordance with

 8     the information you received about that unit.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I can see

10     from this report, most of the letter is about that unit.  Two

11     paragraphs are about them; one about us.  But it is impossible that they

12     wanted to launch an attack on Zadar.  What was in nobody's plans.

13             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, yes, that

14     was not my question.  My question was whether the other part not related

15     to Arkan's units, whether that information would be in accordance with

16     the information you had received, although informally and not a kind of a

17     formal report.  Thank you.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, due to the time, I'm just going to try

20     and finish off on the questions about the statement that we've been

21     using.

22             Could the Prosecution please return to 65 ter 6355.  Bottom of

23     page 3 in the B/C/s and bottom of page 5 of the English translation.

24        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, we're going to be returning to your statement from

25     February 2010, and I'd like to direct your attention to the last sentence

Page 16555

 1     on the page that will be appearing before you.

 2             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have page 3 in the B/C/S.  I see

 3     that the correct page in the English is before us.  And if we could have

 4     the bottom of the page of both versions, please.

 5        Q.   Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the sentence that talks

 6     about the consequence of your wounding in 1993.  You state:

 7             "Due to this wound, I was assessed as 80 per cent disabled and I

 8     never took part in any more combat activities."

 9             Who assessed you as 80 per cent disabled?

10        A.   A medical military board did that.  At the Medical Military

11     Academy in Belgrade.

12        Q.   Do you receive any --

13        A.   We're talking about the hospital called the Medical Military

14     Academy in Belgrade.

15        Q.   Okay.  Do you receive any disability pay in relation to this

16     injury?

17        A.   Unfortunately, no.  Because the state of Serbia does not

18     recognise the time that we spent on the front line.  Only the authorities

19     of Republika Srpska recognise that.

20             MR. WEBER:  If we could please continue to the next page, top.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, was it your intention to limit the

22     question, as the witness did in his answer?  He said Republika Srpska

23     authorities do recognise it.  I do not know whether you're interested to

24     know whether the witness receives a disability pay from the

25     Republic of Serbia or, more generally, from whomever.

Page 16556

 1             MR. WEBER:  I was going to ask some further questions.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Since we are here:

 4        Q.   Do you receive disability pay from anyone?  From the

 5     Republika Srpska or anyone else?

 6        A.   No.  No, I don't.  Velebit was never in Republika Srpska.  It's a

 7     mountain in Croatia, so, if anything, I would have to apply for that from

 8     the Republic of Croatia.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I'm looking at the clock.  It's a quarter

10     to 2.00.

11             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I get your time estimate?

13             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have another full session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  One more full session.

15             How much time, Mr. Bakrac, do you think you would need?

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the time being, I

17     believe that I will need no more than ten minutes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

19             MR. JORDASH:  The same.  Or could I have 15 actually, please.

20     Only because there's one issue that I forgot --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You get 15.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The first session will be 75 minutes, Mr. Weber.

24     After that, we are not limited to 75 minutes.  But for the first session

25     we are.  Not because of Mr. Stanisic, but for other reasons.

Page 16557

 1             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  If I could get a full 75 minutes, I'd

 2     appreciate that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  75 minutes.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Mr. Stanisic will not return, for the reasons I

 5     indicated earlier.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  And he has -- it's on the record

 7     that he waived his right to be present this afternoon.

 8             We take a break.  And we resume at quarter past 2.00 in this same

 9     courtroom.

10                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.46 p.m.

11                           [The Accused Stanisic withdrew]

12                           --- On resuming at 2.18 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, are you ready to continue?

14             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  At this time the Prosecution would

15     like to tender the statement that we've been referring to, 65 ter 6355.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

17             MR. JORDASH:  May I inquire as to whether that's being tendered

18     for the truth of its contents or for impeachment purposes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:  With respect to the portions that have been verified

21     by the Prosecution with the witness, for the truth of its contents.  And

22     then also obviously as to any variation that's been discussed with

23     respect to statements in court and statements that are contained in the

24     statement, we'd be reserving our right to make later submissions on the

25     credibility of the witness.

Page 16558

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection from either Defence team.

 4             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6355 will receive number P3067,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6354.

10        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, what's going to be called up before you is a article

11     that was published in "Vecernje Novosti" on the 4th of October, 1995.

12             I would like to ask about some statements of yours that are

13     contained in this article.  In the B/C/S, this is located on the lower

14     left window of the newspaper article.  And it is in the middle of the

15     English version.

16             Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the section that

17     states:

18             "Pelevic stressed the importance of the Guard, which, as he said,

19     prevented the fall of Sanski Most and participated in the defence of

20     Novi Grad.  He did not deny that deserters had their heads shaved and are

21     then returned to their units."

22             Then there's a direct quote of yours, according to this article:

23             "'On the territory of the Serb Republic, we formed three centres

24     for the reception of deserters,' Pelevic confirmed.  'We send them back

25     to their units; although we are aware that they will never be soldiers,

Page 16559

 1     however, they can at least help others.  In accordance with the old

 2     Serbian custom, the deserters who were unit commanders also had their

 3     heads shaved, are given 25 lashes, and tied to the pillar of shame.'

 4             "Although such behaviour resulted in disputes with some generals,

 5     which have all been overcome, 'a firm military hand prevented the fall of

 6     Sanski Most and Novi Grad (Bosanski Novi),' according to Pelevic.  Apart

 7     from that, as Pelevic said, the guardsman also beat up a colonel of the

 8     Serb Republic Army who ordered a withdrawal from Sanski Most, and he was

 9     added to the list of officers who will answer for cowardice on the front.

10     Pelevic could not say how many names were on this list, however, he

11     confirmed that these men would definitely be tried, 'if this has not been

12     done already, immediately and militarily on the front.'"

13             Sir with respect to your direct quotations in this article, are

14     they accurate?  Are these things that you said?

15        A.   This is a newspaper article.  As much as I can see, this is a

16     report from a press conference that I have held in Belgrade.

17             Journalists have a tendency to make attractive articles with

18     catching headlines.

19             What is, though, true is that in Republika Srpska, in the region

20     of Banija in 1995, we indeed had a problem with deserters.  If we came as

21     volunteers from Serbia via the Republic of Krajina, went there to defend

22     their homes, it was not fair for them to desert, and that is why they

23     were punished.

24             Concerning the issue of shaving their heads, I myself had my head

25     shaved when I was on Mount Velebit because that's a good hygiene measure.

Page 16560

 1     A soldier on the front cannot wash his hair every day.  So this was not

 2     any special form of punishment.

 3        Q.   I would just like to go through your comments.

 4             According to this article, you stated:

 5             "On the territory of the Serb republic we formed three centres

 6     for the reception of deserters."

 7             Did you say that; and is that accurate?  A simple "yes" or "no"

 8     is fine.

 9        A.   No.  We didn't have any sort of centres for the reception of

10     deserters.  This is an interpretation that was made by the journalist.

11        Q.   Okay.  So you are now denying today that you made that direct

12     quote.  Do I understand correctly?

13        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, from the ministry of police of Republika Srpska

14     Tomislav Kovac, we received an order to become involved in sending

15     deserters back to their units.

16        Q.   Sir, that wasn't my question.  I just simply asked you: Do I

17     understand correctly that today you are denying making that direct quote?

18        A.   If the word "nijecete" means that I don't accept it, then I don't

19     accept that I said this.  This is a newspaper article and therefore

20     cannot be a proper document.

21        Q.   Okay.  According to this newspaper article, it continues with

22     another quote of yours:

23             "We send them back to their units, although we are aware that

24     they will never be soldiers.  However, they can at least help others.  In

25     accordance with the old Serbian custom, the deserters who were unit

Page 16561

 1     commanders also have their heads shaved, are given 25 lashes, and tied to

 2     it the pillar of shame."

 3             Did you make that statement; and is that accurate as to what

 4     happened?

 5        A.   This was not accurately reported.

 6        Q.   With respect to the shaving of heads and providing 25 lashes and

 7     tying to a pillar of shame, did the Serbian Volunteer Guard apply that

 8     penalty to any of its own members?

 9        A.   Yes.  But not in the region of Banija because we didn't have the

10     pillory there.  This measure was applied to members of the Guards who

11     were prisoners in Erdut.

12        Q.   What time of infractions would merit this type of penalty?

13        A.   For example, drinking alcohol.  AWOL when this was not permitted.

14     Soldiers went to town without permission.  So these measures were applied

15     in such instances.

16        Q.   Did your efforts in helping the Republika Srpska authorities in

17     the area of Sanski Most help the VRS?  Did it help them maintain their

18     rank, specifically?

19        A.   I didn't understand.  Who did it help maintain their ranks?  I'm

20     sorry, Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't understand your question.

21        Q.   Let's just go step by step.

22             You've indicated that the Serbian Volunteer Guard was in the area

23     of the Banja Luka region in September and October 1995, and do I

24     correctly understand that during that time the SDG was putting forth

25     efforts with respect to deserters from the VRS?

Page 16562

 1        A.   Only briefly, pursuant to an order from the MUP minister of

 2     Republika Srpska, Tomislav Kovac.  Soon thereafter, he withdrew this

 3     order and let this job be done by the police of Republika Srpska.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 6             Sorry to interrupt to, Your Honours.  I'm just wondering, as I've

 7     sat here for the last five minutes, wondering what the dispute is.  I

 8     don't think it's disputed from this side of the room that this is the

 9     role Arkan's men played or this is the type of punishment he gave to

10     his -- to men in Erdut or that he had the role of arresting deserters or

11     that that order came from Kovac and ultimately from Karadzic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, then my question based off that would be

14     to the witness - I don't know if he heard that - is whether or not that

15     helped the Republika Srpska authorities at all in Sanski Most and

16     Novi Grad.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Or that it helped in those places.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You are refining the question, Mr. -- you

19     would say "or that it helped in those places" is not in dispute.

20             MR. JORDASH:  No.  None of that series of questions has been in

21     dispute, and I don't think anyone from the Defence has ever disputed

22     those things.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution then would tender 6354 into evidence

25     and will move on.

Page 16563

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I would say, for the same reason, that

 2     there's no point putting in a statement which ultimately the witness has

 3     denied.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there's no dispute.  And you might even, in

 5     view of the answers of the witness, you might even have difficulties

 6     there, but Mr. Jordash at least doesn't deny.

 7             But now, we have two Defence teams.

 8             Mr. Bakrac.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  I would like to

10     refer the Chamber to D28, which shows when the order was issued.  And the

11     next document is 1D1607.  But when time comes, with your indulgence, I'm

12     going to clarify this issue with the witness very briefly.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Mr. Bakrac, what Mr. Jordash does is to

14     say that the matter is not in dispute, which means that there's agreement

15     between the parties.  What you are doing at this moment, you are

16     referring us to evidence which still has to be evaluated.  And what is

17     your position?  Is there any dispute on any of the matters Mr. Jordash

18     told us there was no dispute as far as the Stanisic Defence is concerned?

19     How, as far as the Simatovic Defence is concerned?

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is no dispute.  I

21     only want to demonstrate that this situation lasted for an extremely

22     short period of time, and I'm going to prove how it started, how long it

23     lasted, and how it ended.  So there is no dispute, but only concerning a

24     very short period that we are discussing.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, if Mr. Weber would agree with that, there

Page 16564

 1     would be even no need to -- to establish that.

 2             Mr. Weber, however, I would, although on the content of this, I

 3     would have one or two questions for the witness which are not exclusively

 4     oriented to the truth of the content.

 5             Mr. Pelevic, you told us that shaving the heads was not

 6     punishment.  And then a few questions after you gave this answer, you

 7     were asked by Mr. Weber about punishment and he there mentioned shaving

 8     heads, and you didn't say, You should exclude that because that was no

 9     punishment.  So in one answer you say it's no punishment; in another

10     answer you seem to accept that Mr. Weber presented it to you as one form

11     of punishment.

12             Could you please clarify your position?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first of all, this is

14     not shaving a head.  This is just cutting hair very short.

15             I can show you a photograph of mine where you can see that I am

16     shaved, my head is shaved.  And in my view this is not a form of

17     punishment.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it that the way in which you do your

19     hairdressing that it is not a form of punishment.  But, of course, that

20     goes to the margins of what we're talking about:  Were people shaven,

21     their heads, as deserters, in combination with other punishment?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at the time, I was

23     not in the field, with the exception of five or six days went I went to

24     visit the Guard.  Therefore, I did not witness any punishment.  I know

25     that the soldiers from Republika Srpska were slapped in the face, the

Page 16565

 1     soldiers who ran away.  And I think that the journalist made a confusion,

 2     a mix-up, between the two.  This -- these measures of punishment were

 3     applied to the prisoners and -- in Erdut, but in no way could it have

 4     happened in the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Why could it not have happened?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Quite simply, we didn't have a

 7     pillory.  It was a front line.  We didn't have a barracks there.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, was shaving the heads of -- of deserters

 9     what -- was that an old custom?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  This is not a Serbian custom.

11     The Serbian custom is 25 lashes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you say you've never observed whether

13     people were -- their heads were shaven?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  But when I was there, I

15     noticed that when we were sending back a VRS soldier, Arkan slapped a

16     lieutenant-colonel from the VRS on the face, the one who had withdrawn

17     his unit from the front line, and that was done in the presence of

18     Colonel Talic -- General Talic.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And they all still had their grown hair, not very

21     short or shaven completely?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  This colonel was slapped in

23     the face, and General Talic and the commander ordered him to send his

24     unit back.  There was no trimming of the hair.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You're talking about one case.  I'm talking about a

Page 16566

 1     story of what happened to those who had deserted, and not about one case.

 2             Can you tell us anything else about others that had deserted and

 3     whether their heads were shaven, yes or no?

 4             If you don't know, fine; if you do know, please tell us.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  But I don't think

 6     that it was likely.  I think that the journalists mixed this up with

 7     Erdut altogether.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution --

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't want to

11     interrupt, but there was a mistake on page 89, line 7, and therefore I

12     would kindly ask, respectfully, the Chamber to ask that this pillory be

13     repeated, and the 25 lashes -- could it be repeated who this punishment

14     was applied to?  Because I don't think that it was properly recorded.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll check that.

16             You told us that the "journalist made a confusion" - that's at

17     least what you said - between what happened in the field and what

18     happened in Erdut.  And you then said:

19             "These measures of punishment were applied to" - and that's how

20     it was translated to us - "... to the prisoners and" - and that's not

21     translated - and other persons in Erdut.

22             And you then added:

23             "But in no way could it have happened in the Republic of Serbian

24     Krajina."

25             Could you please repeat that answer.  The measures of punishment

Page 16567

 1     were applied to whom exactly, in Erdut?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To members of the Serbian Volunteer

 3     Guard, the prisoners who breached rules, like alcohol consumption or

 4     going AWOL.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Just following on that --

 7        Q.   You're saying the "members of the Serbian Volunteer Guard and

 8     prisoners."

 9             Who were the prisoners?

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... I think -- I

12     think I understand what you want to say, Mr. Bakrac.  I think that if we

13     first receive the answer of the witness, it might be clear anyhow.

14             Could you please give an answer.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I clearly said that

16     these measures were applied in Erdut to members of the Serbian Volunteer

17     Guards who were punished for it.  I'm not talking about any prisoners or

18     whatever.  I'm only talking about SDG members who breached our rules,

19     such as alcohol consumption or going to town without permission at a

20     wrong time, and that is the only thing that I spoke about.

21             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time still tenders

22     65 ter 6354, as it does relate to the witness's credibility, and for that

23     reason.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection?  Tendered for credibility reasons.

25             MR. JORDASH:  No objection.

Page 16568

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam, Registrar, the number would be ...

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6354 will receive number P3068,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 5             Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  At this time I'm going to ask Mr. Laugel to please

 7     play a clip from a video compilation that was provided to the Prosecution

 8     from the Simatovic Defence.  It is our understanding that that is one of

 9     the videos that was provided by Mr. Pelevic.  It is from chapter one on

10     one of the DVDs that we were provided at time-code 27 minutes, 50

11     seconds, to 28 minutes, 46 seconds.  I do not know if the -- I do not --

12     at this time we do not have an available transcript.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But is there text spoken which you would like to be

14     on the record?

15             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And there's no transcript.  That creates a problem

17     usually, depending on the speed of speech, but what to expect from the

18     person on the video.

19             MR. WEBER:  I just wanted to forewarn that -- [Overlapping

20     speakers] ...

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now, I do understand that you received this

22     video only recently, Mr. ...

23             Let's see how far we come.  And one thing is for certain: You

24     will have to prepare a transcript anyhow in the near future if you want

25     this to be admitted into evidence.  And then we'll also be able to

Page 16569

 1     compare what we receive now as translation.  And, again, it's an almost

 2     impossible task for our interpreters, I'm aware of that.  However, the

 3     circumstances that Mr. Weber received the video only very recently

 4     justify that he couldn't prepare any transcript.

 5             If -- I'd like to hear, after we've played the video-clip,

 6     whether the interpreters -- to what extent they were able to follow, and

 7     also to hear any further comment on audibility or whatever it is.  And if

 8     need be, to have it played for a second time, if, for example, you could

 9     cope with it for halfway and then lost track.  And then to see whether it

10     could be played twice.

11             I fully understand that this is not the most pleasant job to do

12     at this moment for our interpreters.  It is exceptionally that we allow

13     it to be done.

14             Mr. Weber, another way of dealing with the matter would be that

15     if it's -- if these are long parts with a lot of words spoken, to stop

16     after every 10 seconds or 15 seconds then to see whether the interpreters

17     can catch up.  And I'm looking at you.  I hope that perhaps the

18     15-seconds - rule I wouldn't say, but approach, would serve you best at

19     the moment.

20             Could I hear, on behalf of all the booth, from, for example the

21     English booth.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honour, it will very much depend on the

23     speed of speech that we are about to hear.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you prefer the 15-seconds approach to start

25     with, in order to avoid that we end up in a total mess?

Page 16570

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there a possibility to pause after every

 3     15 seconds?

 4             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's look at the video and hear what is said.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The speech was in Italian, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At least I heard a lot of Italian words as

 9     well.

10             Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:  I've been informed by my partner that there's a

12     upcoming B/C/S portion.  I apologise.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, so the first portion played, and we are now at

14     28 minutes 03, in chapter 3, is Italian language, not presented as

15     evidence by the Prosecution.

16             We'll then see what language now follows.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Europe talks about ethnic cleansing

19     as a very ugly occurrence.  What do you think of this aspect of the war?

20             "I believe it to be a very negative occurrence.  It is a great

21     disgrace to drive away people from their hearths, regardless of whether

22     they are Croats, Muslims, or Serbs.

23             "As the Serbian Volunteer Guard and as a party, we were strictly

24     opposed to ethnic cleansing at all times.  We believe that people need to

25     be enabled to live in their native areas.  It is their right.  We were in

Page 16571

 1     favour of this approach, but the other side did not honour that.

 2             "Admittedly there were such cases on the Serbian side as well,

 3     but we've always condemned them and we believe them not to be good."

 4             Can the footage be repeated.  We couldn't hear the last part of

 5     it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the last part be repeated.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  It was only the part where the lady started

 8     speaking, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

10             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution does not intend to rely

11     on -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             JUDGE ORIE:  To rely on --

13             MR. WEBER:  At this time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At what the lady was saying.

15             Then, under those circumstances, I think we'd proceed.

16             Mr. Weber.

17             MR. WEBER:

18        Q.   In this quote, you appear to indicate that there were cases on

19     the Serbian side and that you've always condemned them.  Could you please

20     explain what you're referring to?

21        A.   What I meant at the time and what I still mean by that is that

22     everything needs to be resolved through peaceful means.  What I had in

23     mind in this particular footage was -- footage were specific cases, and I

24     mean the war crimes committed by soldiers on the Serbian side against the

25     Muslims and Croats.  It was with these issues in mind that I felt a great

Page 16572

 1     sympathy with the victims and those who suffered from it.

 2        Q.   Can you explain to us what the SDG policy was in terms of

 3     consequences to any SDG members who carried out any such acts of ethnic

 4     cleansing?

 5        A.   We have not had such instances in the Serb Volunteer Guard.

 6        Q.   Yesterday we viewed a part of your speech from the

 7     five-year anniversary of the Serbian Volunteer Guard in 1995.  In this

 8     speech, you state:

 9             "All those who have been accused of something are amnestied."

10             What type of crimes were you amnestying in your statement?

11        A.   I didn't say that they were war crimes.  I said that all the

12     prisoners of the Serbian Volunteer Guard were amnestied.  And they

13     were -- most of them were individuals who were dismissed from the Serbian

14     Volunteer Guard for various breaches, but we amnestied only those who

15     expressed contrition and who, through their activities, proved that they

16     would in the future abide by the rules of the Serbian Volunteer Guard.

17        Q.   What are the various breaches that you are referring to?

18        A.   Let me give you a few examples.

19             Insubordination; a failure to abide by the orders from superiors;

20     frequent consumption of alcohol; going AWOL to a neighbouring town.  In

21     one instance, a guardsman was punished for having taken 200 German marks

22     from one of the officers on the boat, or ship, that we discussed earlier.

23        Q.   Now, in the videos that we were provided, it was clear that we

24     were watching portions of your speech and that portions were missing.  We

25     also, in this interview, noticed that you were asked a question by a

Page 16573

 1     journalist about allegations of ethnic cleansing in Sanski Most, and your

 2     answer was then cut at the end.

 3             Do you have a complete version of both your speech and also this

 4     interview that we just looked at?

 5        A.   I think that I handed the video footage to the Defence and they,

 6     in turn, handed it over to you.  I don't think that anything was cut out.

 7             In the interview, I condemned ethnic cleansing, whoever may have

 8     committed it, be it the Serbs, Muslims, or Croats.  I said that the SDG

 9     and the party were strictly opposed to ethnic cleansing because it was a

10     sin and disgrace to chase away anyone from their hearths, from the areas

11     where their fathers and forefathers were born.  And I was quite clear on

12     that issue.

13        Q.   Sir, yesterday you stated:

14             "I collected everything that concerned the commander, in digital

15     form or in printed form.  I have a lot of such material."

16             With respect to the DVDs that you provided to the Defence, did

17     you create these DVDs from different clips, or copied the videos from

18     other digital material?

19        A.   It was Mika Aleksic, a film and theatre director from Belgrade,

20     who handed over that footage to me.  He could be seen on that day, on the

21     10th of October, 1995, when the Guard had its celebration.

22        Q.   Do you possess the raw or original video footage that you were

23     provided in relation to your speech from 1995 in this video interview?

24        A.   I do not.  Whatever I had I handed over to the Defence.

25        Q.   What format did Mika Aleksic give you the videos in, according to

Page 16574

 1     you?

 2        A.   I don't think there were CDs or DVDs back then.  I think it was a

 3     VHS tape, or a Beta.  I'm not really sure about it.  But it was a

 4     cassette, at any rate.

 5        Q.   Do you still have this VHS or Beta tape?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.  I copied it.  Or, rather, it was my neighbour, who

 7     owns a video club, suggested that I have it copied to a more modern

 8     sound -- or image record.  That was the DVD.  And I still have those

 9     cassettes back at home.  If you want me to, I can bring them to you.

10        Q.   When you copied it to digital format, how did you make the

11     decisions of what to copy?

12        A.   I didn't make that decision.  There was no selection involved.

13     There was no cutting or editing.  What you see on the cassettes is what

14     you get on the CD.

15        Q.   Did you provide the original VHS or Beta tape to the

16     Simatovic Defence?

17        A.   I don't think so.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Pelevic has just

19     said that he kept the cassettes back at home, that he had them copied.  I

20     don't see why Mr. Weber should doubt that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, he said that he had them at home at this

22     moment.  He didn't say that he never had given them.  And, again, the

23     same -- the same came to my mind.  The question is not exactly the same,

24     and that's the reason why I have not intervened.  At the same time, of

25     course, we can ask ourselves where this all leads to.

Page 16575

 1             Mr. Weber.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Would you be willing to provide those original tapes to the

 4     Simatovic Defence so the Prosecution could also view them?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Also is wrong, Mr. Weber.  Because they were never

 6     provided to the Simatovic Defence.  So to say is that the Prosecution

 7     also look at them is a wrong understanding of the evidence of the

 8     witness.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

10        Q.   What I'm asking, you, sir, is that in the future, after your

11     testimony, are you willing to provide those videotapes so we could look

12     at them, the original footage?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pelevic, are you willing to do that?  Apparently

14     the Prosecution wants to verify whether what is on the original VHS or

15     Beta tapes, whether that actually - and you told us you didn't do it

16     yourself - actually everything appears on the DVDs you have provided.

17             Are you willing to make that available?  Not to say that it would

18     not be returned to you, most likely, or at least a copy be returned to

19     you, so you will not lose it forever.

20             Are you willing to do that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would be willing to give all the

22     tapes I have that are of no use to me anymore, since I don't have a VCR

23     at home, to Their Honours, the Prosecution, or the Defence.  I am willing

24     to give all the original tapes about the history of the Guard.  There are

25     three original films out of which I produced two documentaries about the

Page 16576

 1     Guard, and I am prepared to give all of that to you, Mr. Weber.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, through Victim and Witness Section, I take it

 3     that a means will be found how to make that available, also to make

 4     further arrangements on copying or returning originals to you, or copies

 5     to you.

 6             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   Yesterday when you were shown a certificate for an individual

 9     named Aleksandar Drazovic, you stated:

10             "It is one of ... many regular documents."

11             What type of documents do you have in any files relating to

12     individuals who are member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard?

13        A.   After Arkan's death, I took from his desk, from his office,

14     everything that had to do with the Guard.  In the main, these were lists

15     of the wounded and the families of those who had been killed and who were

16     now receiving permanent assistance.  And I handed all these documents

17     over to Mr. Vukcevic at the request of the prosecution in Belgrade.

18             There were two cardboard boxes.  That was all.  What happened

19     with the archives of the Guard once it was disbanded, I don't know.  We

20     never kept these records, although I do have at home a large frame

21     containing the photographs of all of our soldiers who were killed.  There

22     were 50 of them.  Beneath every photograph there's the first and last

23     name, date of birth, date and place of death.  And there is no problem at

24     all.  I can make arrangements for ICTY representatives to have a look at

25     that at my home immediately.  There would be no problem there.

Page 16577

 1        Q.   When you say you provided the documents to Mr. Vukcevic, you're

 2     saying that they were provided to the Serbian War Crimes Prosecutor's

 3     Office; is that correct?

 4        A.   Vukcevic.

 5        Q.   Vukcevic.  Is that correct, that that's then what you provided to

 6     the Serbian War Crimes Office?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Who did you provide the documents to?  When you say you provided

 9     them to Mr. Vukcevic, who are you referring to?

10        A.   I handed it over to the Serbian War Crimes Prosecutor's Office,

11     namely to the prosecutor in chief, to the chief prosecutor of that

12     office, Mr. Vukcevic.

13        Q.   You were included on the Simatovic Defence witness list on

14     6 June 2011.  The Simatovic Defence included some of the documents that

15     you provided to them on their exhibit list which was filed on that same

16     date.

17             My question to you is: When were you first contacted to be a

18     witness in this case prior to June 2011, if you were?

19        A.   Yes.  I don't know when it was, but I know the name of the

20     lawyer, Zoran Jovanovic, from the same office.  Unfortunately he died in

21     the meantime.  He was the first one to get in touch with me.

22        Q.   Is it correct, then, that you were contacted sometime prior to

23     the fall of 2009?

24        A.   Truly, I don't know.  It could have been back then, but I can't

25     remember the date.

Page 16578

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 2D904, page 1 of

 2     both the B/C/S and English.

 3        Q.   Sir, is there a document before you?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Is this a statement you provided or submitted to the military

 6     records section in Banja Luka of the Ministry of Defence of

 7     Republika Srpska dated 4 May 2011?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Is it correct that you sent this statement after you were

10     contacted to be a Defence witness at a later point in time?

11        A.   Can you please repeat the question?  I didn't understand it.

12        Q.   Is it correct that you sent this statement at a point in time

13     which was after you had been contacted to be a Defence witness in this

14     case?

15        A.   I don't remember exactly.  But I don't see the connection.  This

16     is part of my regular duties that I do at the request of our veterans who

17     were wounded, or on behalf of the families of those killed.

18        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to the second paragraph of your

19     statement that reads:

20             "Serbian volunteer, Sergeant Dragoljub Kuveljic, born

21     21 September 1090 (as written), in Bijelo Polje, Montenegro, a

22     participant in the war of liberation and defence from 5 July 1992 to 9

23     October 1995, when he was wounded during the liberation of Kljuc in the

24     Republika Srpska as a member of the Serbian Volunteer Guards."

25             Apart from the error in the person's year of birth, is this

Page 16579

 1     statement accurate?

 2        A.   This is the information I was provided by Dragoljub Kuveljic,

 3     because the military records office of the Ministry of Defence of

 4     Republika Srpska sought this data.

 5        Q.   Do you have any personal knowledge, based on your own

 6     experiences, of Mr. Kuveljic?

 7        A.   Yes, I know him.  He was a guardsman and stayed on much longer

 8     after I had to stop fighting because I was wounded.

 9        Q.   In the next paragraph you discuss his wounding.  Is it correct

10     that Mr. Kuveljic was wounded on the 9th of October, 1995?

11        A.   Of course, yes.  He wrote that to me and showed me a certificate

12     issued by the hospital which had taken him in.

13        Q.   Do you personally know that based on your role in the Guard in

14     1995?

15        A.   His heroic act was much talked about in the Guard.  He was

16     wounded as he was trying to save his wounded fellow fighter.  I think

17     that he was even decorated for that, but I'm not sure.

18        Q.   Is it correct that Djoko Djekic died during the same attack on 9

19     October 1995?

20        A.   Yes.  He was a volunteer from Republika Srpska.  And I didn't

21     know him personally.

22        Q.   In this statement, you also refer to an individual named Rade.

23     Could you please provide us with this individual's full name and

24     nickname?

25        A.   I really don't know.  I know that that was the person that

Page 16580

 1     Kuveljic had tried to rescue.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could we please have the second page of this exhibit

 3     in both B/C/S and English.

 4        Q.   Sir, is this the handwritten statement that was provided to you

 5     by Mr. Kuveljic, which was attached to your letter?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Directing your attention to the first paragraph on this page, is

 8     it correct that Aleksandar Drazovic died on the 4th of October, 1995, as

 9     indicated in this statement?

10        A.   I don't know the exact date, but I can see it under the

11     photograph of the late Aleksandar, aka Hans, framed with other

12     photographs hanging on the wall in my house, and you cannot expect me to

13     know each and every name of all the 51 combatants of the Guard that were

14     killed.

15             MR. WEBER:  At this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 2D904

16     into evidence.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Objection on the grounds of relevance.  And

18     secondly, that my learned friend needs to explain why this -- well, let

19     me stick with --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Relevance, Mr. Weber.

21             MR. WEBER:  It's relevant to establish who the Serbian Volunteer

22     Guard members are who participated in combat operations in September and

23     October 1995.  It's centrally relevant to what's alleged in the

24     indictment.  These identities are important.  That's why we asked about

25     them.

Page 16581

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You would say you would link those identities

 2     to --

 3             MR. WEBER:  -- other evidence.  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  To other evidence.

 5             Mr. Jordash.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I would still submit that the witness's

 7     answers can then stand as the evidence.  This is fresh evidence, and my

 8     learned friend -- if this issue was important to the Prosecution, they've

 9     had many years to investigate it.  They've asked the witness questions.

10     His evidence is there.  There's no need for this fresh evidence.

11             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, this is a document we got last week

12     from the Defence.  It's never been available to us before, and the

13     Simatovic Defence just handed it to us last week.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

15             MR. JORDASH:  But it's the witness's evidence which is important.

16     That's what my learned friend has suggested.  This is a statement with

17     lots of new evidence in it.  If this statement is entered into evidence,

18     we, the Defence, now have to seek to investigate its contents.

19             Why do the Prosecution need it, when they've got the witness

20     here?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  How could -- Mr. Jordash, I'm just trying to

22     consider both positions.  How could the Prosecution be aware of the

23     knowledge of this witness without this statement in relation to this

24     specific element of who was at that point in time known to this witness

25     as being a member of the SDG?

Page 16582

 1             Isn't it true that the case law on -- on fresh evidence has got

 2     something to do also with availability of that evidence at a certain

 3     point in time.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Well, that's right.  If it is truly the case that

 5     it's important to the Prosecution which members of Arkan's Tigers took

 6     part in Sanski Most and Banja Luka, then that was an issue which ought to

 7     have been investigated.  First of all, that should have been noticed to

 8     the Defence.  Who was it, they say, as individuals, the accused are

 9     responsible for?  That should have been investigated a long time ago.

10             If it is their case that the individual names are of critical

11     importance, then we ought to have that indicated to us so that we, the

12     Defence, can respond to that.  If there are other facts within this

13     statement which are important to the Prosecution, and that, in reality,

14     must be the case, then we ought to have notice of what significance those

15     facts play in their case.  Rather than asking a witness a few questions

16     on very narrow issues relating to identity, then putting a statement in

17     without any explanation, not just to the Defence, but with the Court.

18     What's the probative value of the remainder of this statement?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That is --

20             Let me first ask Mr. Bakrac.  Anything that you would like to

21     add?  Or do you agree with Mr. Jordash or do you disagree with him?

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  I appreciate

23     Mr. Jordash's views, but this was anyway added to our 65 ter list once we

24     received it from Mr. Pelevic.  This is just a sample of a statement that

25     Mr. Pelevic gave in Republika Srpska in order to prove his pensionable

Page 16583

 1     service, and we have no objection to its being admitted.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So that is -- you say you appreciate Mr. Jordash's

 3     views, but you have no objections.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  If that's my learned friend for Mr. Simatovic's

 5     position, he's explained precisely what this document is supposed to

 6     prove and therefore I have no objection.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it's ready for being admitted.

 8             Now, of course, the Chamber would also carefully look when

 9     interpreting a document for the purposes of making determinations it has

10     to make.  We'll also always carefully look at the circumstances under

11     which it was introduced.  But this should not be understood as a

12     commitment that in the totality of the evidence we would under all

13     circumstances limit ourselves to the reasons given, different reasons

14     given by the parties.  That -- I hope that that's clear for both Defence

15     and Prosecution.

16             Then, Madam Registrar, what would be the number?

17             I didn't hear a confirmation yet, but the body language was such

18     that I considered that the parties did agree.

19             Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D904 will receive number P3069,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 2D518.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  While waiting for that, could I ask you,

25     Mr. Pelevic:  The report we just saw on the screen, how Mr. Kuveljic got

Page 16584

 1     wounded, what happened exactly at the front line, you have no personal

 2     knowledge of that, do you?  It's just what you -- what you received as

 3     information, you then put that on paper.  And as you explained, it is

 4     partly what was given to you in writing and that it was, if I understand

 5     you well, it was notorious general knowledge at the time within the SDG.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.  But I also saw

 7     the document produced by the hospital in Banja Luka.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which, of course, I was mainly focussing on

 9     what happened at the front line rather than what people saw in hospital.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Sir, before you, I believe, is another form that you produced to

13     the Defence for Radnov Zarica; is that correct, that this is one of the

14     forms that you produced?

15        A.   As far as I can see, Mr. Prosecutor, this is Zarica as the last

16     name, but the first name should be Radovan.  Actually, Zarica is his

17     first name and Radnov is his last name.

18        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I wanted to clarify that with you.

19             Is this one of the documents you produced to the Defence?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you have any other documents related to this individual?

22        A.   I don't.  Only I have a photo of him at my home, with all his

23     personal details.

24        Q.   Whose handwriting appears in the upper-right corner of the

25     document?  If you need the original, I do have the original here with me

Page 16585

 1     in court, if you'd like to view it.

 2        A.   I cannot know that.  How do you expect me to know who wrote this?

 3        Q.   Did this individual -- was he killed on the 7th of October, 1995,

 4     in Kljuc?  Do you have personal knowledge of that?

 5        A.   Our units, together with the special brigade of the MUP of

 6     Republika Srpska, besieged Kljuc at the time, and that's for sure.  That

 7     is when this happened.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And you know that Mr. Radnov died during that operation,

 9     personally?

10        A.   I wasn't there, as I said, but I don't know what you're referring

11     to.

12        Q.   Okay.  Did you hear of his death?

13        A.   I didn't know the deceased.

14             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the document into evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D518 will receive number P3070.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  P3070 is admitted into

18     evidence.

19             Could the Chamber have a look at the original, Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:  And if at this time I could also provide a copy of

21     the next document I'm going to show to the witness.  I have the original

22     on that, but I'll provide that to the Court Usher to also deliver.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.  We have to take a break at

24     3.30, as I said before, for reasons unrelated to the situation of

25     Mr. Stanisic.

Page 16586

 1             But before you go to the next document, I would have one question

 2     for you.

 3             Mr. Pelevic, why is it that you have the originals in your

 4     possession, and how many of those do you have?  Only of the deceased?  Or

 5     of other members as well?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I have the photographs

 7     of all our killed men in my house, and in an envelope as well, because we

 8     used to publish obituaries in the papers on the day of their death.

 9     Apart from that, I have nothing else.  Whatever I had I gave to the

10     Defence and to the Serbian War Crimes Prosecutor's Office,

11     Chief Prosecutor Vukcevic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So may I then take it that these documents of those

13     members who had died were taken out of the normal administration and

14     would then be with you; whereas for members who are still alive, that

15     they were kept with the SDG administration?  Or ...

16             Where are similar copies of those who had not died?

17        A.   Your Honours, I already said that after Arkan's death, in his

18     office I found in his desk a number of such documents and I took them to

19     my home for safekeeping, because after his death this office was no

20     longer his.

21             I have no other documents relating to those still living, but the

22     list of those who died and -- or were wounded and the families of those

23     who had died I handed over to Mr. Vukcevic at the Serbia's War

24     Prosecution Office.  He has everything in his possession.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

Page 16587

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, and will be a break a little bit

 3     longer than usual; it will be 40 minutes.  So we'll resume at ten minutes

 4     past 4.00.

 5             And I return the original to the Prosecution.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, before the break you did not have a full

 9     session of 75 minutes.  Could you -- so, therefore, you get a little bit

10     more time, but could you try to proceed as efficiently as possible.

11             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

12        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, earlier today we discussed codes used by the Serbian

13     Volunteer Guard.  You mentioned that yours was the number 22 and Arkan's

14     was 99.

15             Do you know what Legija's code was?

16        A.   Yes.  His code was "Tiger 01."

17             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 2D521.

18             And at this time, Your Honour, I'd ask the Court Officer to

19     please provide the witness with the original copy of this document that

20     we have in court.

21             I do not know if Your Honours would like to view the document

22     first.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think if it's a similar one as the previous one,

24     then there is no need.  Yes.

25             MR. WEBER:

Page 16588

 1        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, is it correct that before you is another form that

 2     you produced to the Simatovic Defence, this one related to

 3     Aleksandar Manojlovic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you have any additional documentation for this individual?

 6        A.   I don't.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I do want to note for the record that I have

 9     absolutely no idea the relevance of this individual or who he is said to

10     be commanded by or in which locations or which crimes he's supposed to

11     have committed -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             MR. WEBER:  I'm going to ask questions.  I ask that Mr. Jordash

13     at least wait until I tender the document if he's going to enter these

14     objections.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It's unclear to Mr. Jordash at this moment, so,

16     therefore, it should be -- you should attempt to make that clear as

17     possible.  Because if it's unclear to Mr. Jordash, it might be unclear to

18     the Chamber as well at this moment.

19             MR. WEBER:  Sure.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And apart from that, I've got one -- you referred to

21     Legija.  Now I am - it will not surprise you - familiar with

22     Milorad Ulemek, Legija.  But today a Legija was linked to another name,

23     and I wanted to avoid whatever confusion that might arise.  And I have to

24     find it - one second - today's transcript -- I think it was today,

25     but ... although the first name was Milorad as well, it was a different

Page 16589

 1     family name.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I believe it's -- [Overlapping

 4     speakers] ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it may be that it's "Lukovic," which is, as I

 6     understand, another name of the same Legija.  But it was not then -- it

 7     was -- he was referred to only as "Lukovic" and not as "Ulemek."  But

 8     we're talking about the same person?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Legija changed his

10     last name twice.  His real last name was "Ulemek," but when he got

11     married he took his wife's last name "Lukovic."  And then after the

12     divorce, he reverted to his original name of "Ulemek."

13             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, that may

14     have -- I'm so familiar with "Ulemek" that I missed that, although

15     that's -- other members of the Bench are better in this respect.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. WEBER:

18        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, is the document in your hands a photocopy with a

19     picture attached, and then does have it some handwriting on it in the

20     upper-right corner and at the bottom of the document?

21        A.   Yes, there is.

22        Q.   Do you know whose handwriting appears on that page?

23        A.   I really don't know.  It's not mine, definitely.

24        Q.   Directing your attention to the upper-right corner, is it correct

25     that the date of death on this document has been changed with the

Page 16590

 1     number 2 crossed out and written over in blue ink with the number 1?  And

 2     then also the location of death, has that been changed, crossing out the

 3     word "Sanski Most," which I believe is much more visible in the original

 4     before you, and writing the word "Mrkonjic Grad" next to it?

 5        A.   Yes.  I can see that these corrections were made, both with

 6     regard to the date and the place of where he was killed.

 7        Q.   Do you know whose phone numbers are at the bottom?

 8        A.   I see here that his residential address is Stara Pazova.  I think

 9     that 022 is a code number for Stara Pazova, because the capital of

10     Vojvodina, Novi Sad, has the area code number 021, and I suppose that

11     this telephone number belongs to his parents.

12        Q.   Directing your attention to the section that reads "date of

13     arrival in the Guards," it states "20 June 1995."  Do you know whether

14     Mr. Manojlovic participated in the Trnovo operations in July 1995, after

15     he arrived?

16        A.   I really wouldn't be able to know that.  He was accepted on the

17     20th of June, 1995.  I didn't know him personally, and I don't know

18     whether it was possible for him to be sent to Trnovo, because it took

19     place at that time approximately.

20        Q.   Can you confirm, based on your own knowledge of what you heard or

21     the records that you have kept, whether or not this individual died as a

22     member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard at the beginning of October 1995?

23        A.   I don't have any specific knowledge, but I can give you an answer

24     only after I have checked this framed set of photographs of members of

25     the Serbian Volunteer Guard, whether he was among them or not.  I cannot

Page 16591

 1     give you all the names of those people, particularly those who joined the

 2     Guard after me.  And, as you can see, this was in mid-1995.

 3        Q.   Do you have any reason to believe that this document is

 4     inaccurate and that this individual did not die as a member of the Guard

 5     in October 1995?

 6        A.   Given that I wasn't there, I cannot confirm that.  But I could --

 7     would kindly ask you to accept a proposal that I have.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... sir --

 9             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Before --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A resolution.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pelevic, perhaps you first answer the question.

12     The question was not whether he died, but whether you have any reason to

13     believe that what is in this document, that it's inaccurate.  So that you

14     say, Well, that sounds illogical, or that's ... I mean, is there any

15     reason why you would believe that this document would not be accurate?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I have no reason.  And it

17     doesn't make sense, as you said.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  At this time the Prosecution tenders 2D521 into

20     evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we deal with that, the witness was about to

22     make a proposal, and I think we should give him an opportunity to make

23     that proposal.

24             Whether or not we'll accept it is a different matter,

25     Mr. Pelevic.  But tell us what your proposal -- what proposal you had in

Page 16592

 1     mind.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suggest that your investigators

 3     working in Belgrade go to my home and verify there whether he was within

 4     this frame of all the combatants who were killed and which contains all

 5     their personal data.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have a counter-proposal.

 7             If you do not find him at home in the frame, it might be wise to

 8     inform Mr. Bakrac about that.

 9             Would that be a proposal which the party could support and

10     accept?  Because usually --

11             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we do not give witnesses tasks for after they

13     have concluded their testimony, but ...

14             Mr. Jordash, the proposal is that the witness, if he doesn't find

15     this person in his frame at home, that he informs Mr. Bakrac.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Well, my -- my problem with all of this is, as I've

17     indicated, is that the Prosecution have not indicated the significance

18     and the relevance and the probative value of this evidence.  My learned

19     friend is silent and will persist on being silent on this issue because

20     either he's investigating for a different case or he wants to keep his

21     case as private as possible so he can ambush the Defence.

22             I mean, Mr. Weber should indicate what this person is alleged to

23     have done and their connection to the accused.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's the -- I would say that's the same

25     objection you expressed for the last one.

Page 16593

 1             Could we make the proposal conditional on admission into evidence

 2     of these two documents?  I mean, it doesn't make much sense to send the

 3     witness with a -- that's one.

 4             Second is, Mr. Bakrac, would you object the counter-proposal --

 5     or would you object to the proposal?

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  I am prepared to

 7     hear from Mr. Pelevic once he goes back home whether he managed to find

 8     this photo or not, and then I will convey this information to you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Not necessarily to the Chamber, but at least that

10     it's -- that the parties have this information available.

11             We'll consider whether we accept your proposal or whether we'll

12     suggest to you or invite you to do what the counter-proposal would

13     require.

14             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, could we please --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

17             MR. WEBER:  -- tender the exhibit.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The exhibit gets a number and will then be --

19     the last one, let me just check, I think --

20             MR. WEBER:  It is -- the Prosecution is tendering 2D521.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And that would receive number ...

22             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we decide on admission ...

24             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I just -- for the record, I object to the

25     tendering of it.  It doesn't comport with Your Honours' guidance

Page 16594

 1     delivered on the 26th of August, 2011.  And absent any indication what

 2     the Prosecution's -- significance of this individual to the Prosecution

 3     case, not only -- well, we cannot investigate.  I don't know what to do

 4     with this.  And I doubt very much, respectfully, that anyone else in this

 5     room does either.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please assign a number.

 7     The document will be MFI'd.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D521 will receive number P3071,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 2D526.

12             If I could also ask the Court Officer to retrieve the original of

13     the last document from the witness.

14             For the record, at the end of today's hearing the Prosecution

15     will return the originals of these documents to the Simatovic Defence,

16     unless the Chamber would like them.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber is not in need of receiving the --

19     keeping the originals.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, may I -- before -- I mean, I know I'm

22     likely to lose the argument, but nonetheless for the record I do want to

23     note that we have moved from a circumstance where once upon a time when

24     the Prosecution wanted to use a document they had to lay a foundation,

25     and they had to lay a foundation which was consistent with Your Honour's

Page 16595

 1     guidance which I've referred to, and actually lay a foundation as to why

 2     they wanted to use a new document.  We've now moved to a situation where

 3     the Prosecution simply pull out a document from wherever and use it

 4     without any explanation.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if I could just mention one thing for

 6     the record.

 7             I believe that the context that have allowed the discussions and

 8     objections that are happening right now is in the issue of fresh

 9     evidence.  And it is my recollection of the law on this that fresh

10     evidence constitutes something that is not on an exhibit list of a party.

11     The documents I am using do come from an exhibit list, that being the

12     Simatovic Defence exhibit list.

13             If I'm wrong with that, then I might -- I might be, but I'm

14     simply -- these documents were not documents that were available to the

15     Prosecution as part of its own case; they were available to an individual

16     Defence witness, produced to a Defence team, and included on a Defence

17     exhibit list.  This individual is now testifying, and the Prosecution

18     should be entitled to use documents that are from the Defence exhibit

19     list to put to the witness about his own personal knowledge of records

20     that are in his own collection relating to activities that surround an

21     alleged incident in the indictment.  And we have alleged crimes that were

22     committed in the fall of 1995 in the vicinity of Sanski Most.

23             So I believe that we're having a lot of discussions here over

24     something that the Prosecution submits does not have much merit.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Well, Your Honour.

Page 16596

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber, at this moment, we have marked the last

 2     document for identification.  The previous document was admitted into

 3     evidence after we had heard the parties.  And -- but the Chamber will

 4     further consider, and perhaps at the end of today's session we might find

 5     some additional time to deal with it, but the Chamber will consider -- of

 6     course, when considering to admit this document into evidence, and if the

 7     outcome would be negative, it might lead -- it might trigger the Chamber

 8     to reconsider its previous decision as well.  So we have to look at it in

 9     more detail, whether -- there are quite a few elements which are

10     different from previous situations.  I mention only one document on the

11     exhibit list, of course, where I think in the guidance was a reference to

12     documents that had been on the exhibit list for a while, and not since

13     yesterday.  There are a few matters which we would like to further

14     consider, and we might seek the guidance of the parties in that respect

15     as well.

16             At this moment, the document, the second of the personal cards,

17     is now marked for identification, and we may want to reconsider our

18     decision on P3070 as well.

19             Let's proceed for the time being.

20             Mr. Weber.

21             MR. WEBER:  For the record, before the witness is 65 ter 2D526.

22        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, is this another document you've produced to the

23     Defence of Mr. Simatovic?

24        A.   I don't remember.

25        Q.   Sir, I have the originals here that were provided to me by the

Page 16597

 1     Simatovic Defence of the documents that you provided.  Would you like

 2     to --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do the parties agree on that this document was

 4     provided to the Simatovic Defence by the witness?

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we agree.  This is what

 6     we had in the form of a note as having come from Mr. Pelevic and received

 7     by Mr. Jovanovic.  So that was part of the file we had, it was in a

 8     plastic sleeve, and we handed it all to Mr. Weber as we had it, and it

 9     has been on our 65 ter list since June 2011.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             Mr. Jordash, any dispute about whether this was received from

12     this witness?

13             MR. JORDASH:  No, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we proceed, where the parties have no

15     dispute about the source of this document.  It is received from the

16     witness, as I understand, most likely by the late Mr. Jovanovic.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Sir, this document is a certificate on the circumstances

20     surrounding the wounding of a Dejan Velickovic.  From your own knowledge,

21     are you able to say whether or not this individual was wounded as a

22     member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard?

23        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, it states here that he joined the Guard in the

24     month of August 1995 and that he was from Republika Srpska.  I wasn't

25     able to know all the guardsmen, and I don't know this individual.

Page 16598

 1        Q.   Okay.  Do you have any reason to believe that this individual was

 2     not a member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard between 11 August 1995 and

 3     when he was wounded on 21 October 1995?

 4        A.   There's no reason.

 5        Q.   Does the B/C/S version before you indicate that this document was

 6     sent to the "arhivi" and not sent to files?

 7        A.   I really don't know.  The only thing it says here is internal

 8     number.  It doesn't say either the archives or the records.  I don't

 9     know.

10        Q.   Directing your attention to the text on the bottom on the lower

11     left, does that text indicate this certificate was sent to archives?

12        A.   Yes, yes.  It says "archives."

13             I didn't see it before.  Believe me, it's in a very small print.

14        Q.   Okay.  We've already discussed what you know about the archives

15     of the Serbian Volunteer Guard.  Do you know if this certificate would

16     have gone to any other archives besides those of the SDG?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, let me just check now what caused the --

18             You are more or less contesting the translation implicitly.  So

19     before we start a whole line of questioning on the difference between

20     archives and files, I'd first like to clarify whether -- whether there is

21     any inconsistency between the two.  Is the word "arhivi," is it possible

22     to translate it as "files" as well?  Or does it exclusively mean

23     "archives"?  Then the next question would be:  What's the difference

24     between files and archives?

25             So that's all implicit here.  And I would like to -- to avoid any

Page 16599

 1     confusion in this respect.  Because if you say, "Isn't it true it's

 2     archives, not files?" then, of course, you are more or less burdening the

 3     witness with something that should be dealt with elsewhere.  That is,

 4     with CLSS.

 5             Therefore, I -- it confuses me, and I'd like you to avoid that I

 6     get confused.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 8        Q.   Sir, are -- in the Serbian language, are the words "archives" and

 9     "files" two different words?

10        A.   Well, documentation is something that is used at -- currently, so

11     something that is part of your current affairs, that you're working on;

12     whereas, something that you would file in an archive is something that

13     you've dealt with.

14        Q.   Can the word "arhivi" be interpreted or translated as the word

15     "files" in the Serbian language?

16             MR. WEBER:  I'm not sure -- Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, of course, how could we -- then we depend, for

18     the answer to this question, we depend how the interpreters have

19     translated that word, and that's exactly the issue at stake.

20             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So, therefore, it is not a real -- it's -- it

22     doesn't clarify matters.

23             There is a fundamental other question.  Apparently, Mr. Weber,

24     you consider it as a possibility that something, already at the moment

25     when it is produced, would immediately sent to archives, which would mean

Page 16600

 1     that it does not assist them of current storing of documentation but that

 2     it would be sent to a -- the type of storage which we usually refer to as

 3     archiving.

 4             Now, that is, at least for me, a novelty, because usually

 5     documents are first stored in -- whether you call it files or

 6     documentation, et cetera, and then after a certain period of time when

 7     you think you don't need them on an occurring basis anymore you send them

 8     to the archives.  That's at least my understanding of these words.

 9             Now, if my understanding is correct, then apart from the

10     linguistic matter which could be raised here, there's also a systematic

11     question that you could raise.  Having no administrative files and send

12     matters immediately to the archive is, of course, something -- well, I

13     would love to hear experience of other professionals on how that works so

14     that I better understand what it means that you send a document

15     immediately to the archives.

16             It -- I just share with you some of my problems in understanding

17     your questions, possible answers, and the document itself.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, we'll address the matter with CLSS.

20        Q.   And, sir, my question to you is:  Do you know if this would have

21     been -- this document would have been kept by anyone besides the Serbian

22     Volunteer Guard?

23        A.   No, there's no reason for me to believe that.

24             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders the exhibit.

25             MR. JORDASH:  I just repeat my objection.  I have absolutely no

Page 16601

 1     idea what happened just then.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It will be marked for identification as well.  We'll

 3     consider it in the context of the other documents.

 4             Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D526 will receive number P3072,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, in the documents that we just looked at, the names

11     "Dragoljub Kuveljic," "Djoko Djekic," "Zarica, Radnov,"

12     "Aleksandar Manojlovic," and "Dejan Velickovic" were mentioned.  Is it

13     your evidence that these individuals were members of the Serbian

14     Volunteer Guard?

15        A.   I am absolutely certain when it comes to Kuveljic.  And I would

16     have to check for the other two.  I can't state that with certainty.

17        Q.   Sir, I just mentioned five names.  How about Djoko Djekic?

18        A.   I don't know.

19        Q.   Zarica Radnov?

20        A.   I saw his file, and he was definitely in the Guard.  I don't know

21     for how long, though, because people came and went.

22        Q.   Aleksandar Manojlovic?

23        A.   I do see that he was in the Guard, but I don't know for how long.

24        Q.   Dejan Velickovic?

25        A.   I don't know.  I haven't seen his file.

Page 16602

 1        Q.   Why would you have these files in your possession if they were

 2     not members of the SDG?

 3        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I've already said that everything I found in the

 4     drawer of the desk of late Arkan I took home with me for safekeeping.

 5        Q.   To your knowledge, did these individuals work for any other

 6     organisation besides the Serbian Volunteer Guard?

 7        A.   I don't know which type of organisation you have in mind.

 8     Military?  Or ...

 9        Q.   I mean any other organisation aside from the Serbian Volunteer

10     Guard.

11        A.   I don't have knowledge to that effect.

12        Q.   Are you saying that because you are -- because you definitively

13     know they were not a part of any other organisation besides the Serbian

14     Volunteer Guard; or are you simply saying you don't know, and they may

15     have been?

16        A.   The latter.  I don't know anything about it.

17             MR. WEBER:  No further questions.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

19             Mr. Jordash, any further questions for the witness?

20             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please, if I may.

21             There's one subject which I'd like to raise, if I may.  It's not

22     strictly arising from Mr. Weber's cross-examination, but it's something

23     that I wanted to ask the witness about in relation to Banja Luka, with

24     Your Honours' leave.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that the five extra minutes you're ...


Page 16603

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             You can start your questions.  And then if at a certain moment we

 4     would -- then knowing what it is about, because Banja Luka is just a

 5     geographical indication, then we could - the emphasis is on "could" -

 6     reconsider.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 9                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

10        Q.   Just a few questions, if I can, Mr. Pelevic.

11             You testified on the 25th of January to the sending of SDG forces

12     to the Banja Luka region in September and October of 1995.  You recall

13     that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you testified that there were 200 volunteers who were sent.

16             MR. JORDASH:  And that was, Your Honours, page 16433.

17        Q.   Do you recall that?

18        A.   If I recall properly, I said around 200.  I don't know the exact

19     number.  You know that there were more or less 200 men.

20        Q.   Well, that's what I want to ask you about.  Because a witness in

21     this court first claimed that 100 men had been sent to Banja Luka.

22             MR. JORDASH:  And that's at, Your Honours, P1615.

23        Q.   And then when the witness gave evidence a bit later on, the

24     witness claimed that 3- to 4 00 of Arkan's men had been sent to

25     Banja Luka.  And I want to try to understand how much -- how certain you

Page 16604

 1     are that only around 200 were sent.

 2             How do you know that?

 3        A.   Mr. Defence Counsel, as we were able to see in the video footage

 4     of the 10th of October, 1995, when the celebration was going on of the

 5     Guard, there were around 200 men present there.  We could not have sent

 6     either 300 or 400 men because that was far more than we had at our

 7     disposal.  And we had around 200.  Something that Arkan spoke about as

 8     well.  Was it more, was it less?  I don't know.  What I definitely know

 9     is that there weren't 100, but there weren't 300.  And even less were

10     there 400 of them.

11        Q.   Well, you know that, then, because Arkan himself said - is this

12     right? - that there were around 200 Tigers at that point in time; is that

13     right?  Do I understand you correctly?

14        A.   Yes, you understand me correctly.  But don't forget that I also

15     said that I was visiting the Guard and Commander Arkan for some three or

16     four days and that during my visit to the guardsmen I was able to see for

17     myself that there weren't many more than 200 or fewer than 200 at the

18     time.  I know that because I spent time with them.

19        Q.   So you visited them where precisely, and in what circumstances,

20     which enabled you to say with such certainty that there was 200, around

21     200, or maybe even less?

22        A.   Our Guard had the front end of the positions on the hill called

23     Cadjevica, facing the Muslim forces.  That's where they were stationed

24     and where they were dug in.

25        Q.   Take us there.  You went there.  How did you know, how were you

Page 16605

 1     able to say -- I'm not disagreeing with you.  I just want to understand

 2     precisely how you are so sure that there was around 200.

 3             What did you see to indicate that to you or what did you hear?

 4        A.   I said that I spent some five or six days there.  I can't be

 5     sure.  It was shortly after the celebration event where I spoke, in

 6     addition to Commander Arkan.  I went to visit our positions there, and

 7     one day something happened that nobody had expected.  The Serb forces

 8     started withdrawing.  Even our forces holding the positions at Cadjevica

 9     began retreating.

10             Both the commander and I were attending a meeting in Banja Luka

11     at the time.  We left right away for that position, where we found

12     General Momir Talic.  The two of them agreed that they would proceed to

13     Manjaca right away to prevent the Serbian forces from retreating, because

14     should a single Serb soldier have entered Banja Luka, the same scenario

15     would have happened as had happened in Knin.  All the Serbs from the

16     Banja Luka Krajina would have attempted to flee across the Drina as did

17     the Krajina Serbs in 1995.

18             We were successful.  I was next to Commander Arkan who was

19     driving in the jeep.  There was General Momir Talic, the commander of the

20     1st Krajina Corps, and I was there with them in the jeep, on our way

21     there.

22        Q.   Sorry, maybe I've missed it, but why then -- how did this enable

23     you to see with such certainty that there was only 200?  And slow down a

24     little bit, too.  The translator is chasing you.

25        A.   Counsel, I told you that I toured our guards on the positions

Page 16606

 1     on some five or six occasions, and it wasn't difficult for me as an

 2   experienced soldier to gauge how many of our volunteers were there. We also

 3   spoke about it in Banja Luka with the commander. So I don't see how I would

 4     have made such a big mistake. I could not have been mistaken by more than

 5     ten men, take it or leave it. But that was my estimate of around 200 men.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I'll take it, if you don't mind, and I'll move on.

 7             The next subject I want to -- and the only subject I want to ask

 8     you about now is the training and the numbers of men who were trained.

 9             Earlier today you said that you "can't claim that there were

10     10.000 people exactly, but there was several thousand men who went

11     through the Guards ... were trained.  They first had a one-month period

12     there, and then a three-months' period."

13             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, page 66.

14        Q.   Then later you said -- or a couple of lines later, you said, when

15     asked -- sorry, you said this:

16             "But throughout the period of my time, my assessment would be

17     that there were about 10.000 of them."

18             Do you recall that?

19        A.   Do I recall what exactly?  My answer or how many men there had

20     been?

21        Q.   Well, let's just assume you do recall your evidence today about

22     training.

23             Where were, in general, these men trained?  We know that there's

24     a training camp, according to you, at Erdut.  Was there any other

25     training camps, or was Erdut the principal training camp for the Guards?

Page 16607

 1        A.   If you will allow me to say this, I did not keep precise records

 2     of the men who went through training.  I had other duties to attend.

 3             As for the location of the training courses:  Physical fitness

 4     training was conducted, in part, in Erdut along the stretch all the way

 5     to Dalj, some 20 kilometres, because it involved running.

 6             Now, the part of the training which had to do with the fitness

 7     and martial arts took place on the training grounds within our centre.

 8     This was a large lawn with hurdles that any elite unit in the world has

 9     to go through.

10             As for marksmanship, this was taking place not far from the

11     centre, and there was full cover all around in the form of various

12     buildings.

13        Q.   Now, obviously if -- sorry, let me go back.

14             You -- you -- you suggest that about 10.000 --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could we first get a better answer to

16     your last question.

17             Erdut was the centre.  Training took place in that centre and

18     just around that centre.  You -- okay.

19             Was there any other such centre where similar training was given?

20     At a distant location.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're thinking that it was in

22     the territory of some other municipality, then the answer is no.  Our

23     centre was in the municipality of Erdut.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was the only centre which provided for such

25     training, where people were accommodated in the centre, although part of

Page 16608

 1     the training took place outside the limits of the premises of the centre

 2     itself.

 3             That's, Mr. Jordash, I think you were interested to know, not

 4     whether the running was five miles out of the centre.  Isn't it?

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we have an answer.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. JORDASH:

 9        Q.   And are you able to -- I know this may be asking a bit much, but

10     10.000 people over a five-year period, from 1991 to 1995, are you able to

11     divide that up into years, how many men were being trained per year

12     during that five-year period, approximately?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the witness invited to divide a thousand --

14     10.000 by 5?

15             MR. JORDASH:  Well --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we could give the answer as well.

17             MR. JORDASH:  No, no, sorry.  It's my lack of clarity on --

18     [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what your question is about, isn't it?

20             MR. JORDASH:  Well, it's more whether perhaps there was 9.000 in

21     1991.  But I'm just trying to work out the -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If that's what you -- so you would say, "Was

23     there an equal division of those trained over the years?"  That's then

24     your question.

25             MR. JORDASH:  And if not, then how --

Page 16609

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  -- how many per year.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then that's a clear question now.

 4             Could you answer the question, witness, whether there were more

 5     busy times and less busy times over those years in training, or whether

 6     it was on average more or less the same over the years?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since after I had been wounded in

 8     early February 1993, I wasn't able to conduct any further training.  I

 9     cannot give you an exact answer.  I can tell you how it was during the

10     period starting from when I came, that is, the whole of 1992, because

11     already in January we left for the Benkovac front.

12             But I have to say that I wasn't much bothered with counting

13     people or keeping records.  All I can say is that approximately -- well,

14     the question you're asking me is very difficult.  But let's say that my

15     rough estimate would be 1.000 men or 1200 men.  But I honestly can't give

16     you an accurate answer because I was not involved in these issues.

17             MR. JORDASH:

18        Q.   So I understand that correctly, or so the Court understands that

19     correctly:  1.000 or 1.2 00 men in 1992; is that what you're suggesting?

20     Or have I misunderstood that?  I'm not pushing you for precise, just to

21     clarify what approximate figure you've just given, and for which year.

22        A.   I made an oath to this Court to speak the truth, the whole truth,

23     and nothing but the truth.  However, you are putting me into a situation

24     that I might inadvertently tell an untruth.

25             This is my rough estimate.  I can't give you an exact number.

Page 16610

 1     And my estimates might be wrong.

 2        Q.   For nineteen --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The issue is, What is the estimate about?  The 1.000

 4     or 1200 men you mentioned, accepting that it's a rough estimate, was that

 5     the number of men as trained in 1992 in the centre according to your

 6     rough estimate?

 7             Is that what you are saying?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

11        Q.   And what happened to all these men?  They didn't all join the

12     Tigers.  Am I correct about that?

13        A.   Yes, you are.  Some were unable to pass the training and were

14     sent home.  A number of the recruits who arrived changed their mind after

15     undergoing these difficult training and left on their -- of their own

16     accord.

17             Please realize that the first contracts were signed for a month

18     and after that we proceeded with three-month contracts, which means that

19     people would come, stay there for three months, and then leave, because

20     they would realize that, having undergone such a difficult training, they

21     were not fit for the job.

22        Q.   Right.  And presumably some went and joined other units, military

23     units, or TO units or paramilitary units.

24        A.   Yes, there were cases of that nature.  Not many of them, but

25     there were.


Page 16611

 1        Q.   And you gave evidence, I think two days ago, that this training

 2     had nothing to do with the Serbian DB.  Did this training -- so I won't

 3     revisit that, but did this training camp have anything to do with any

 4     other training camp?  Were you ever asked, for example, by anybody to

 5     link this training camp to another training camp in the Eastern Slavonia

 6     or in the Knin region, or was it completely autonomous?

 7        A.   The centre was completely autonomous.  We didn't want anyone to

 8     be linked with us, because we had a remarkably well-developed system of

 9     training, both physical and mental.

10        Q.   Thank you.  No further questions.  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13             Mr. Bakrac.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I think

15     that my estimate that I had given you before the break still stays.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good evening, Mr. Pelevic.  It's evening

18     already.  I'll try to take no more than ten or 15 minutes.

19        A.   Good evening.

20        Q.   Mr. Weber asked you about the checks that were made when you

21     applied to join the Serbian Volunteer Guard, and you answered that you

22     said that you know that somebody went to your work organisation to make

23     inquiries about you and also at the kick-box association of Yugoslavia.

24     You also said that you don't know whether anyone went to make these

25     checks with the MUP.

Page 16612

 1             When you were being promoted within the party and the

 2     Serbian Volunteer Guard, do you know that when you accepted candidates

 3     whether any vetting procedures were carried out within the MUP regarding

 4     these candidates?

 5        A.   There was absolutely no vetting procedure conducted with the MUP.

 6     We only wanted each and every member of the Guard to provide a

 7     certificate that he doesn't have any prior criminal convictions, and that

 8     could easily have been obtained.  I know that because --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

10     portion of his answer and slow down, if possible.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last portion of your

12     answer starting with:  "I know that because ..."

13             And then say what you said a second ago.  And could you slow

14     down.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that because I closely

16     co-operated with the head of the office in Belgrade,

17     Mr. Jovan Dimitrijevic, and I would surely know about that, because he

18     was the one who admitted the recruits.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, we have to go back because it was not properly

21     record in the transcript, and I'm going to repeat my question.

22             You said that you know that in certain instances some individuals

23     were required to provide certificates that they had no prior convictions,

24     and you said that these certificates could be obtained from where?

25        A.   Each citizen of Serbia can have this certificate issued by the

Page 16613

 1     local court in Serbia, in the places where they live.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pelevic.

 3             Mr. Weber showed you Exhibit P2616 - we don't need to have it

 4     back on the screen, and I think that all the parties will agree that I

 5     can summarize it - to the effect that this was produced by the

 6     administration -- security administration of the Yugoslav army.  And it

 7     was sent to the RSK, that Arkan's Tigers were going -- and --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat and slow down.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, you are invited by the interpreters to

10     repeat the remainder of your question and to slow down.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I will.  Thank you.  I apologise to

12     the interpreters' booths.

13        Q.   I paraphrased and it was not recorded that the

14     security administration of the Yugoslav army based in Belgrade sent to

15     the Army of the Serbian Republic of Krajina a report that Arkan's Tigers

16     were going to Zadar in order to plunder the place and that each one of

17     them was receiving a monthly payment of 5.000 German marks.

18             In this same document it is also said that this report should be

19     checked.

20             So this was what you could have seen from document P2616 shown by

21     Mr. Weber.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we now have document D69, and

23     can we zoom in on the letterhead for starters.

24             While we are waiting, I'm going try to read it.  It says:

25             "Republic of Serbian Krajina, Main Staff of the Serbian army.

Page 16614

 1     Information about the situation on the North Dalmatian front in the

 2     Republic of Serbian Krajina."

 3             So we have before us a document which was produced by the staff

 4     of the Army of the Serbian Krajina.

 5             Can we go to the last paragraph in B/C/S.  And, Your Honours, in

 6     English, it's page 2.

 7        Q.   I am going to read it out to and I will ask you to confirm, given

 8     that you were on this front, whether this information provided by the

 9     Main Staff of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina is accurate or

10     not.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2 in English,

12     please, the top of the page, for the benefit of the Chamber.

13        Q.   This is 28th January 1993.

14             It reads -- now we have the English version as well.

15             "In the opinion of soldiers and people of Obrovac, the arrival of

16     Arkan and his volunteers was welcomed with enthusiasm.  This was the

17     chief reason why many people started returning to their homes, while in

18     combat terms, with skillful tactical moves, he made combat operations

19     useful, and the situation in Obrovac has been fully consolidated."

20             This is a document authored by Assistant Commander

21     Colonel Kosta Novakovic.

22             Mr. Pelevic, does this document, this report relating to the

23     engagement of the Serbian Volunteer Guard on the Benkovac front, reflect

24     your personal experience?

25        A.   Since this is a report from the Main Staff of the Serbian army

Page 16615

 1     sent to all the corps of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Krajina and

 2     all the press centres in Knin, Topusko, and Vukovar, this is an accurate

 3     description of the situation.  In other words, this completely refutes

 4     the reports of the so-called intelligence service of the Army of the

 5     Serbian Republic of Krajina, because this information in this report was

 6     provided by the Main Staff, which testifies that the soldiers and the

 7     population of Obrovac welcomed enthusiastically the arrival of Arkan and

 8     his volunteers, and it also contributed to the incentive given to people

 9     to return home, and I personally was a witness to all of this.

10        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, my learned friend, Mr. Weber, asked you about the

11     bringing in of deserters in the area of Banja Luka Krajina.  If I

12     remember correctly, you said that that was done pursuant to an order of

13     Mr. Kovac and that it lasted for a short period of time; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now have

16     Exhibit D28.

17        Q.   While we are waiting, I will tell you that this is a -- an order

18     sent by dispatch on the 11th of October, 1995.  It was sent from the

19     office of the minister of the MUP of Republika Srpska, and it says:

20             [As read] "Pursuant to the agreement between the MUP minister and

21     the chief of the Serbian Army of Republika Srpska, Manojlo Milovanovic, I

22     hereby order that the chief of the Prijedor CJB, commander of the Tigers,

23     Zeljko Raznjatovic, and the commander of the Janja detachment shall

24     immediately start arresting deserters from the front in the territory of

25     the Prijedor CJB, organise them in military ranks, and return them to

Page 16616

 1     their original brigade.  This task should be carried out together with

 2     unit commands.  If they are in the area and if they are not, further

 3     command should be agreed with the Main Staff."

 4             Is this the order issued by Tomo Kovac that you mentioned and

 5     which relates to the sending back of deserters?

 6        A.   I didn't know that this order was issued based on an agreement

 7     between the MUP minister, Mr. Kovac, and the Chief of the Main Staff,

 8     Manojlo Milovanovic, but all the better.  And, of course, we had to obey

 9     this order.  It was not our will.  We didn't go there to arrest anyone,

10     but, rather, to fight side by side with them in order to liberate the

11     Banja Luka Krajina.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now have --

13             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... could I first

14     seek -- I'm trying to fully understand the evidence given by the witness.

15             Mr. Bakrac, you took us back to the evidence about the

16     allegations that Arkan's units would be not interested in defending the

17     territory, but in taking control of Zadar in order to loot the local

18     banks, et cetera, and that was the bad reception of what people would

19     think Arkan would do.  And then you then took us to the other document,

20     if I understood you well, to demonstrate how welcome Arkan's troops were.

21             Is that correct?

22             Now, the first one was about what Arkan was expected to do in

23     Zadar.  And the other document was about how people welcomed Arkan in

24     Benkovac, if I'm ... is that correct?

25             Could we then try to get a clear picture of the situation.

Page 16617

 1             Witness, could you tell me:  When Arkan arrived in Benkovac,

 2     where everyone -- where he even enabled people to return to their homes,

 3     who would return to their homes?  I mean, who had apparently left the

 4     area before, who would now return to their homes?  Were those Croats?

 5     Serbs?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the attack on Maslenica,

 7     there were quite a few refugees, almost the entire population of Obrovac,

 8     a location close to Knin, fled, and they were the Serbian population.

 9             On our arrival in Obrovac and Benkovac, a great many of them

10     returned.  As the document states, this boosted the morale of the Army of

11     of -- the Army of Republika Srpska in this western area of the Krajina.

12     That's to say, in the Knin Krajina.

13             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So it has to do with the Serbian

15     population.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, upon arrival of Arkan, Serbs could return

17     and were quite happy that they could return because the area was brought

18     under Serb control again.

19             Is that correctly understood?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the other document dealt with what people

22     feared Arkan's people would do in Zadar.  What was the majority of the

23     population in Zadar?  Was it Serb? - at that point in time - was it

24     Croat?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Throughout the history, Zadar had

Page 16618

 1     always had more Croats than Serbs.  So it was the majority Croat

 2     population.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah, I'm not talking about history.  I'm talking

 4     about that point in time which was -- where, I think, major portions -

 5     but please correct me when my understanding is wrong - when major

 6     portions of the Krajina had become under Serb control; whereas other

 7     parts of the costal area were still under Croat control.

 8             Is that correct?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Did many Serbs remain in Zadar at that point in

11     time?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of the Serbs in Zadar had

13     fled.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, my question to you is the following:

15     Comparing how welcome Arkan was after Serbs had taken control again of

16     that area, to compare that with the fears of the population in Zadar,

17     which was mainly Croat, would the one be -- would the one way of

18     receiving Arkan and his troops being very welcome, would that demonstrate

19     that in Croat areas he would be similarly welcome?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, our forces would never

21     have been welcome in the Croatian areas, but there was no interest on --

22     on the part of any Serb authority to occupy Zadar.  It was a Croatian

23     town.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [No Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm not saying any of -- I'm not saying

Page 16619

 1     that -- I'm not commenting on whether he intended, yes or no.

 2             The only thing I want to draw your attention to, Mr. Bakrac, is

 3     that how welcome Arkan may have been in Obrovac and Benkovac, that the

 4     situation there, as the witness explained to us now, was quite different

 5     from where, apparently, people were in fear of Arkan.

 6             So to that extent it -- at least it's my understanding - but

 7     please elicit further evidence with the witness if my understanding is

 8     wrong, and it's provisional understanding, of course - that the one

 9     situation is difficult to compare with the other situation.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I may have made a

11     mistake, because I didn't show the relevant document to save time.  The

12     document that my learned friend Mr. Weber referred to was P2616.

13             Let's have a look at it.

14             And while we're waiting, it's the security organ of the SFRY of

15     the JNA sent, an unverified piece of information to the Army of the RSK,

16     wherein it is stated that Arkan went to the Knin front line with the

17     intention of occupying Zadar and looting the local shops.

18             Now, we have a document which proves quite the opposite, and that

19     was the point I was trying to make.  It reads here that the information

20     is being forwarded in order to be checked.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I noticed that.  Whether the one proves the

22     other to be wrong is further to be considered, of course, in looking at

23     the evidence in its entirety.

24             By the way, when you quoted from that, the 5.000 German marks,

25     you said per month, and that was done before today.  It's now the second

Page 16620

 1     time, but that's, of course, not what the document says.  The document

 2     says 5.000 Deutschemarks.  That's all.  Not any time-frame.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  My intention was

 5     to show that the staff of the Serbian Army of Krajina had its own views,

 6     with regard to Arkan's forces, quite apart from what may have arrived

 7     from Belgrade to be checked.

 8        Q.   Let's go back to the topic that we were dealing with before these

 9     discussions.  Let's have a look at 1D1607.  Let me remind you that D28 of

10     the 11th of October, 1995 -- or, rather, that's the date --

11             THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... 1607 is

12     Exhibit D525, Your Honours.

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour.  I

14     neglected to make that note.  My apologies to Madam Registrar.

15        Q.   The date is the 12th of October, 1995, in this document.  Again,

16     we have the MUP of Republika Srpska, minister's office, order, which

17     reads:

18             "The Tigers unit should discontinue taking in deserters.  It

19     should, rather, withdraw and prepare for combat.

20             "These policing duties as well as others will be taken from --

21     will be taken on by members of the public security Prijedor together with

22     the MUP units of Serbia."

23             Mr. Pelevic, when you said that at one point your unit was no

24     longer charged with bringing in deserters, did you have in mind this

25     order by Kovac?

Page 16621

 1        A.   Yes, of course.  When I arrived in Banja Luka, the commander told

 2     me that they couldn't wait to receive that sort of order sooner because

 3     they didn't want to have to deal with deserter but, rather, to engage in

 4     combat in order to defend the Banja Luka Krajina.  In other words, this

 5     order was received with delight.

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you for the time

 7     you've given me.  I have no further questions of this witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We are close to one hour and a half.  We have to

 9     deal with a few matters on admission into evidence.  I have a few

10     questions for the witness.

11             You have more questions for the witness as well, Mr. Weber?

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour -- Your Honour, actually, the Prosecution

13     just wanted to address one matter with respect to the proposal of

14     checking the photograph in Mr. Pelevic's house, and we just wanted to

15     tender exhibits that had been not provided to the Registry earlier.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which gives an opportunity to the Chamber also

17     perhaps to briefly think about a few matters which arose in court.  And I

18     also have to read a statement.  So we will not finish in the next four

19     minutes.  There's no way of doing that.

20             MR. JORDASH:  No.  And could I -- I hesitate because I don't want

21     to detain the Court, it's been a long day, but I do -- I would like to

22     make very brief submissions about Rule 90(H).

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Rule 90(H).

24             Then I suggest that we take the break now.  That, after the

25     break, that I'll start with some questions that -- if my colleagues have


Page 16622

 1     any questions, that -- any further questions triggered by the questions

 2     by the Bench or questions Mr. Weber apparently has not at this very

 3     moment.  And then we'll deal with the technicalities, admission into

 4     evidence, of some 90(H), and then at the very I'll read the statement.

 5     That's our programme for after the break.

 6             We -- I think we can have a bit of a shorter break as usual and

 7     resume at 6.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I have a few questions for you, Mr. Pelevic.

11                           Questioned by the Court:

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The first is about the video that was shown to you,

13     and I think it was the anniversary of the SDG, where you described what

14     you saw at 16 minutes and 20 seconds.  And I read your answer:

15             "To the left you can see General Marko Pejic, Peja, from the SDG,

16     wearing a red beret; and to the right, with a blue beret, you can see

17     General Obrad Stevanovic, the commander of the PJP."

18             Do you remember that image, where you commented on it?

19        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the next question was asked:

21             "When you say the PJP unit, which one?"

22             And then you explained:

23             "It's a unit from the Serbia MUP.  The MUP in Serbia ..."

24             And then you gave some further explanation.

25             Why was General Obrad Stevanovic present during the celebration

Page 16623

 1     of the anniversary of the -- of the SDG?  Why was he there?  What was his

 2     role, what was his link to the SDG?

 3        A.   The special unit of the MUP of Serbia was deployed along the

 4     borders of Slavonia, Baranja, and Srem, on the one hand, and Serbia.  The

 5     authorities in Serbia were perhaps afraid that the Croatian forces would

 6     attack the eastern part of the Krajina, just as they had done on the

 7     western part on the 5th of August.

 8             And they were part of the 11th Corps of the VRS, and this was one

 9     of the units.  And since he was one of the units of the 11th Corps, as

10     had been the SDG, he felt that he should be there as a guest.  I didn't

11     like seeing him there, but, of course, you can't ever chase away guests

12     at a party.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at a party it's usually the host who invites

14     the guest, isn't it?

15        A.   Nobody invited him, you see.  I sent the invitations out.  It was

16     the command of the 11th Corps that was invited, and they may have

17     forwarded the invitation to him, but he was not invited personally.  And

18     I am sure about it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then another question.

20             You -- let me find it.

21             You told us that you were unaware when you came as a soldier to

22     Erdut that Badza was appointed deputy minister of the interior of the

23     Republic of Serbia.

24             Is that correctly understood?

25        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

Page 16624

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You also told us that he had visited Erdut

 2     several times.  You saw him there several times.

 3        A.   Yes.  At the beginning of the year.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When did you become aware that he was

 5     appointed deputy minister of the interior of Serbia?

 6        A.   I think that I learnt it on my return from the Krka monastery.

 7     Previously I had my military duties to perform, and we did not receive

 8     any newspapers in Erdut, so I wasn't kept very well informed.  It must

 9     have been when I met him.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you also testified that he came there

11     exclusively in his capacity as TO chief in -- in SV -- the area of

12     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  When he met with Arkan, you told us

13     that you did not attend those meetings.

14             Now, not attending the meetings and not being aware that he was

15     appointed deputy minister of the interior of the Republic of Serbia, how

16     could you know exactly in what capacity he came and what he discussed

17     with Arkan?

18        A.   I saw him wearing a uniform of the Territorial Defence of

19     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  He did not arrive in the police

20     uniform of the MUP of Serbia.  I don't know what they talked about

21     because I was an ordinary soldier.

22             Later on, Arkan told me that they had become the best of friends

23     and that before my arrival there they were on good terms as fellow

24     fighters, fellow soldiers.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I do understand that Arkan told you that.

Page 16625

 1             Then after a month would you then discuss in what capacity he had

 2     come and what the subjects of discussion had been?  Then discuss with

 3     you, I mean.

 4        A.   No.  This wasn't the subject of the discussion.  It was only much

 5     later that Arkan and I became close.  From what I know, he later on left

 6     the position of the commander of the Territorial Defence.  He was

 7     replaced by someone called Trajkovic, I believe, but I'm not sure.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But my question is:  Was it then far later

 9     that -- or was it -- your answers, were they based on what you observed

10     when Badza came and visited Erdut, primarily?

11        A.   Your Honour, I really don't know what they talked about.  I do

12     know that after his visits the army would psychologically be preparing

13     for an imminent action, because he was the commander of the Territorial

14     Defence force that we were a member of.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you say even later on you would never --

16     became really acquainted with the subjects that were discussed between

17     Arkan and Badza.  Is that correctly understood?

18        A.   Yes.  I can only assume that it had to do with military issues,

19     but I really don't know.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

21             You told us in your testimony about punishment in Erdut and

22     people who did not obey orders or people who drank too much alcohol.

23             Now, I have one or two questions for you as far as misbehaviour

24     of SDG members is concerned.  Did you ever hear of any SDG member

25     committing a murder?

Page 16626

 1        A.   Your Honour, do you mean in combat or in civilian life?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's focus, first, on having committed a murder

 3     after he had joined the SDG and in the context of SDG activity.

 4        A.   Of course, there were killings in combat.  I didn't hear of any

 5     other murders.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever hear of persons being captured or at

 7     least detained and then murdered by Arkan and/or SDG members?

 8        A.   That, I never heard.  But I did hear that there were prisoners.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And you never heard about any prisoner -- well,

10     let's say not of Serb nationality, any prisoner being killed when in the

11     custody of -- custody under the control of the SDG?

12        A.   No, I never heard that.  We handed over the prisoners of war to

13     the army, and they would in turn exchange them for the soldiers and

14     officers captured by the Croatian army.  We didn't have the facilities in

15     Erdut where we would be holding soldiers.  That's to say, prisoners.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you ever heard of any statements that no

17     prisoners of war should be made?

18             Meaning that if someone was in your custody, that you should not

19     keep him in custody but that perhaps some other fate would be the fate of

20     that person?

21        A.   No.  This was one of the rules of the Serbian Volunteer Guard.

22     That's to say, respect for prisoners and women, children, and the

23     elderly.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Up till this moment, have you never heard about

25     prisoners being killed where members of the SDG and/or Arkan were nearby

Page 16627

 1     and may have been involved in such killings?

 2        A.   I never witnessed anything of the sort, nor did I hear of anyone

 3     from the Serbian Volunteer Guard, and especially not Arkan, having been

 4     an eye-witness to something of the sort.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That wasn't my question.  My question was whether

 6     you ever, up till this moment, heard about such events.  Not whether you

 7     heard it from SDG members or from Arkan, but in general.

 8        A.   Yes.  There were such accounts published by the media in Serbia.

 9     And when I say "media," I mean media owned by the authorities.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you ever find it important for yourself to

11     seek verification of those publications to form an opinion on what you

12     apparently never heard from SDG members or from Arkan to try to find out

13     whether there was any truth in such reports?

14        A.   Since newspapers carried stories containing accusations against

15     Arkan, during the trial as well, whether they were true or not, and since

16     there were such newspapers that were constantly opposed to us and to

17     Arkan, I wanted to but had no other way of checking these accounts other

18     than by talking to Arkan.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And you asked Arkan specifically whether he had ever

20     been involved in any event of killing?

21        A.   Yes.  I asked him about Zvornik.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Any other events?

23        A.   No.

24             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... more

25     specifically, did you ever ask about events that may have happened in

Page 16628

 1     the -- in Slavonia, Baranja, or Western Srem?

 2        A.   No.  There could not have been war crimes committed there,

 3     because that was territory under our administration.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You say your administration.  What do you mean

 5     exactly by that?

 6        A.   I mean that it was under Serb authority.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Had it always been?

 8        A.   I believe so.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But this Chamber heard evidence about Vukovar being

10     taken.  Are you familiar with the town of Vukovar?

11        A.   Your Honour, that was before my time in the Guard.  But it was

12     discussed a great deal within the Guard.  The Guard never did go into

13     Vukovar.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But did Vukovar come under Serb control after it had

15     been previously under Croat control?

16        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  But the Serbian Guard had never been deployed

17     to Vukovar.  After Luzac, we went to Erdut.  That was at least what I was

18     told.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Erdut was -- was that -- had that always been under

20     Serb control, or had it been under Croat control in earlier days?

21        A.   I think that it was under Croatian control earlier on.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But it was then taken by Serb forces.

23        A.   Yes.  But the Serb population in Slavonia, Baranja, and

24     Western Srem was the majority population, and they would not, and did

25     not, accept Croatian authority.

Page 16629

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But when I said -- when I asked you in -- when

 2     you gave an answer, "I mean that it was under Serb authority," when I

 3     asked "Had it always been?" you said:  "I believe so."  But it was

 4     geographically part of the Republic of Croatia in earlier days, wasn't

 5     it?

 6        A.   That's right.  However, these were not borders.  They were merely

 7     administrative boundaries between the different republics.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you also ask Arkan about a criminal record he

 9     may have had in other countries?

10        A.   Your Honour, I heard a great deal about it and read a great deal,

11     but I never asked him about it.  I was absolutely not interested in that

12     part of his life.  I suppose that there is some truth in that.  At one

13     point he started talking about it, but I interrupted him.  I absolutely

14     didn't want to hear anything about it.  I met him when I arrived in

15     Erdut.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You mentioned him a hero, and you didn't want to

17     know about perhaps other sides of the person?

18        A.   Precisely so.  I wasn't interested in that.  Everyone is entitled

19     to their own past.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  My last question is the following:

21             All the press publications, you said, were politically motivated

22     if they described crimes that would have been committed by SDG members.

23     That's one.

24             And, second, you said, well, war crimes could not have been

25     committed in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem because it was under

Page 16630

 1     Serb control.

 2             Do I have to understand the last part of this answer that whether

 3     committed as war crimes or committed as crimes not directly related to

 4     war, in your view, but that the SDG, SDG members, including Arkan, were

 5     never involved in killings of people that were deprived of their liberty,

 6     that were in some kind of detention?

 7             And my question initially was whether you have -- had ever heard

 8     about such events:  Detained people being killed in SBWS.  Even if it was

 9     before you joined the SDG.

10        A.   I had not heard of any sort of war crimes in Slavonia, Baranja,

11     and Western Srem.  But I did hear of other forces committing war crimes

12     in other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You said:  "I had not heard of any sort of war

14     crimes ..."

15             My question, I make a clear distinction that I was not interested

16     in whether you call them war crimes or whether you understood them to be

17     war crimes.

18             Had you ever heard of SDG members, including Arkan, being

19     involved, even before you joined the SDG, being involved in the killing

20     of persons detained in SBWS, irrespective of whether you considered that

21     there was a war situation, but did you ever hear about such cases, such

22     events?

23        A.   Your Honour, what you describe is a serious war crime, but I had

24     never heard of such an instance.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Whether I describe a war crime or whether I

Page 16631

 1     describe an ordinary crime, that is, murder, is -- we leave that apart

 2     from this moment.  I describe a factual situation, and I ask you not to

 3     qualify what I describe, but I ask you whether you'd ever heard of a

 4     crime consisting of people being deprived of their liberty, so,

 5     therefore, in some kind of detention situation, being killed, where

 6     SDG members or Arkan was involved in such killings.  And I'm focussing on

 7     SBWS even when it was before you joined the SDG.

 8             Did you ever hear about such a thing?

 9        A.   No, Your Honours.  I wasn't aware of that.  I didn't hear about

10     it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Up till the day of today?

12        A.   The only thing I heard of was that the Guard was accused of the

13     events in Sanski Most and Zvornik, and I think that that's it.

14             As for Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, I never heard

15     anything to that effect.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Up till the day of today.

17        A.   Yes.  After your statement.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I have no further questions for you.

19             Have the questions -- well, let me first ...

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The Bench has no further questions for you.

22             Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need for further

23     questions?

24             MR. JORDASH:  It's less that the questions have triggered further

25     questions, but I've been informed by a B/C/S speaker in my team that


Page 16632

 1     there was an error or there may have been an error in the translation at

 2     page 128 of today's --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  128.  We'll check that.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  And it's the witness may have said something which

 5     may be important.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me first find 128.  I'm there.  Could you point

 7     me to the line involved.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  It's somewhere between line 16 and 21.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  16 and 21.

10             MR. JORDASH:  And the witness was talking about how he knew that

11     there were only around 200 men in Banja Luka.  And he may have said

12     something which -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  What I'll do, I'll read his answer starting

14     at line 16, or you do that, and then ask whether that reflects what he

15     said, is -- whether anything is missing or whether anything is added

16     which he didn't say, because that's then ...

17             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Your English is better, Mr. Jordash.

19             MR. JORDASH:  I'm not sure that's true.

20                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

21        Q.   Mr. Pelevic, I just want to see if there's anything missing from

22     the record we have of what you said earlier today when I was questioning

23     you about the 200 men in Banja Luka.  And the answer you gave was this,

24     or one of the answers:

25             "Mr. Counsel, I told you that I toured our guards on the

Page 16633

 1     positions on some five or six occasions, and it wasn't difficult for me

 2     to gauge how many of them were there.  We also spoke about it in

 3     Banja Luka with the commander.  So I don't see how I would have made such

 4     a large mistake.  I could not have been mistaken by more than ten men,

 5     take it or leave it.  But that was my estimate of around 200 men."

 6             Can you think carefully as to whether there was something else

 7     you said when expressing your position as to why you knew there was

 8     200 men.

 9        A.   Esteemed Counsel, as far as I can see, the interpretation was bad

10     probably due to the speed of my speech.  I didn't say that our guards

11     were on positions several times but that I visited them on the positions

12     several times, which gave me an opportunity to learn their strength.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That seems not to be the problem because I, too,

14     heard --

15             MR. JORDASH:  I --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Did -- could I just ask --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  There's another possibility, Mr. Jordash.  Of

19     course, we always try to verify with the witness whether there are any

20     mistakes.  Of course, there is still the possibility that if really

21     something is missing or ill-translated, then we can have that corrected

22     by a request to CLSS.  So if there's really an important matter which is

23     misinterpreted, I'm always surprised that there's so little mistakes, but

24     then you have other ways of verifying it.

25             MR. JORDASH:  We'll deal with it that way.  I think that's


Page 16634

 1     easier.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes?

 3             Mr. Weber, usually we leave you as the last if it's a Defence

 4     witness.  Anything you'd like to -- any question triggered by the ...

 5             MR. WEBER:  Not a question.  But there was a discussion earlier

 6     about proposals, as to going -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first -- let's first clearly distinguish.

 8     This means that the testimony of this witness has been concluded hereby.

 9     And then we come to proposals, and we -- that is a matter which is, for

10     me, a little bit distinct from -- from hearing evidence.

11             And there are a few other matters as well, such as tendering and

12     documents, and which some of them are now available.  But for the

13     proposal I think we still need the witness.

14             MR. WEBER:  That's correct.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, earlier today it was suggested a method

17     as to how to have the witness check if certain individuals were on a

18     board of photos in his house.  The Prosecution actually, after further

19     considering the discussion that happened earlier, it would be our

20     preference to have an investigator from the Belgrade field office go and

21     photograph whatever Mr. Pelevic would like us to look at in terms of this

22     entire picture frame, and if that's okay with the witness, that would be

23     our preferred -- our counter-proposal, I guess, at this time.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That was his proposal: Send your investigators.

25             Any objection?

Page 16635

 1             MR. JORDASH:  It is linked to our submissions on 90(H).

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you would say, We shouldn't have that evidence

 3     at all, so, well, why then send investigators and make photographs --

 4     [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Well, it --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of matters?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  I would put it slightly differently.  That we --

 8     the investigation would be legitimate if my learned friend had pursued

 9     his cross-examination in a different way, i.e., if he had complied with

10     90(H), and that's why I say that the two issues are linked.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear.

12             The Chamber will first hear submissions on, I would say, the

13     legal issue involved.  And there could be two legal issues involved.

14     There's 90(H)(ii) and perhaps the fresh evidence issue there.  It's a bit

15     at the -- in the margin of these two issues.

16             Let me just see.  Do we need the witness for this?  I think so.

17             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would prefer to have the

18     submissions outside the presence of the witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Then, witness, could I ask you to leave the courtroom for a

21     second and wait outside.  I promise that we'll not continue tomorrow, but

22     at least the parties would like to bring a few matters to our attention.

23     And it may have, I'm not saying it will have, but it may have an impact

24     on proposal or counter-proposals.

25             Could you please follow the usher.


Page 16636

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  The submission is that the Prosecution have

 4     violated Rule 90(H).

 5             The premise of the submission is based on four things that

 6     occurred during Mr. Weber's cross-examination.

 7             Number one, that he cross-examined on the subject matter of their

 8     case.

 9             Number two, the witness gave evidence which was contradictory to

10     their case:  and particularly today, at page 4, when the witness said

11     that the relationship between Arkan's men and the DB wasn't a good one;

12     at page 14 to 15, when he said that the DB was against the objectives of

13     uniting the Serbian lands; and another example at page 54, that Arkan was

14     against Ilija Kojic.

15             Number three, that the Prosecution will later contest the case

16     given by this witness by challenging his credibility or by adducing

17     evidence to contradict it, and, in particular, but not limited to, the

18     evidence, the fresh evidence, what we say is fresh evidence, related to

19     the five men who the Prosecution will say were Arkan's men and were men

20     who were under the control, in some way, of the DB.

21             And, finally, fourth, that Mr. Weber at no time during his

22     cross-examination, in general, or specifically, put the Prosecution's

23     case concerning the DB's relationship with Arkan, let alone put their

24     case in relation to Mr. Stanisic and Arkan and his men.  Not a single

25     word was said about Mr. Stanisic's relationship to Arkan, as alleged by

Page 16637

 1     the Prosecution.  Not a single word was said about what must be a core

 2     part of their case, that the DB was in control of Arkan's men from 1991

 3     throughout the indictment period.

 4             Those four facts are significant in light of Your Honours'

 5     guidance on Rule 90(H)(ii) and decision on Stanisic Defence submissions

 6     on Rule 90(H)(ii) dated 19th of October, 2011.  I'm not going to detain

 7     the Court long, but to refer Your Honours to paragraphs 14 and 15 of that

 8     decision, and, in particular, paragraph 15, where Your Honours state:

 9             "The Chamber considers that Rule 90(H)(ii) is only applicable and

10     then only in limited circumstances when a party cross-examines in

11     category 3.  Category 3 being contained in paragraph 14 as the subject

12     matter of the cross-examining party's case if the witness is able to give

13     relevant evidence."

14             So 90(H)(ii) is applicable when the party cross-examines on that.

15     In stating this, and I quote:

16             "The Chamber stresses that the issue is not whether the evidence

17     is contradictory to the cross-examining party's overall case, rather it

18     is whether the witness's contradictory evidence given while being

19     cross-examined in category 3 is later going to be contested by the

20     cross-examining party introducing contradictory evidence or otherwise

21     challenging the credibility of the witness's version of events."

22             To summarize, what the Prosecution are seeking to do is to elicit

23     certain evidence from this witness which is relevant to this case, and

24     this fresh evidence is precisely on point, later seek to rely upon that

25     evidence and say, Well, this witness, he would have known if these five

Page 16638

 1     men were Arkan's men.  He, therefore, is support for our case that these

 2     men were Arkan's men, link that evidence up with other evidence to say,

 3     Arkan's men were controlled by the SDB.

 4             What they cannot do, in our submission, following Your Honour's

 5     guidance on Rule 90(H), 90(H)(ii), is take the good without complying

 6     with their obligations.  And their obligations mean that once the witness

 7     has given evidence of that kind, which the Prosecution will later rely

 8     upon, then the Prosecution must put the nature of their case to the

 9     witness so that he can comment on the nature of that case.  So that

10     Your Honours, when Your Honours sit down to deliberate, can say, Well,

11     yes, the witness did confirm the Prosecution case in relation to these

12     aspects.  When the Prosecution, however, put the nature of the case to

13     him on the aspects which were contradicting their case, the witness was

14     given an opportunity to respond and responded in this way.  That gives

15     the full contextualisation which will assist Your Honours to get towards

16     the truth.

17             The Prosecution are wanting, if I may use an English phrase, to

18     have their cake and to eat it; not to comply with their obligations, but

19     to adduce evidence which they later rely upon without giving the witness

20     an opportunity to explain and deal with the contradictions.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, it's the Prosecutor's -- Prosecution's

23     understanding from the Chamber's decision that the purpose of Rule 90(H)

24     is to first ensure efficient and fair presentation of the evidence, to --

25     second, to assist the Trial Chamber in judging the credibility of the

Page 16639

 1     witness, and, third, protect the witness from confusion.

 2             During today's examination, the Prosecution started by attempting

 3     to challenge the -- both the bias of the witness and then also the intent

 4     that the witness specifically had during his time as a member of the

 5     Serbian Volunteer Guard.

 6             The witness has offered during his evidence broad testimony that

 7     the Serbian MUP had nothing to do with the Serbian Volunteer Guard.  That

 8     including the Serbian DB.  The Prosecution throughout their examination

 9     today did attempt to challenge whether or not, in fact, that was true.

10     For example, we confronted the witness with the decision about Badza's

11     appointment and the fact that he was actually a minister at the time.  We

12     challenged the witness in terms of how checks were done.  Things of this

13     nature.

14             We did so in the context of trying to ascertain what the

15     witness's knowledge actually was, whether he had participated in earlier

16     operations very similar to many of the -- well, Your Honours further

17     explored that on -- on examination, whether or not he knew or was part of

18     operations in Zvornik or Bijeljina, how many convoys that he was a part

19     of, and whether he deployed during other times to which he offers

20     generalised evidence about the lack of DB involvement.

21             In the context of what is fair to the witness, I believe it is --

22     the Prosecution has sufficiently met its burden pursuant to Rule 90(H) in

23     terms of trying to confront the witness and also establish what his

24     knowledge actually is and is not, and also attempting to establish any

25     biases or interests that he may have.

Page 16640

 1             With respect to Mr. Jordash's points, that the Prosecution will

 2     later contest the case by challenging the credibility of the witness and

 3     whether or not during examination we put the Prosecution's case in

 4     general or specific, while he is cross-referencing the documents that the

 5     Prosecution used that were produced from the Simatovic Defence, we'll

 6     address this altogether, since that is an example.

 7             The Prosecution received through the disclosure of the

 8     Simatovic Defence documents that were produced by this very witness.  So

 9     the documents do relate directly to what the witness had in his

10     possession and what he may know or not know.  The witness, during the

11     examination today, at page 124, indicated that these documents came

12     directly from Arkan's drawer.

13             Prior to this, the Prosecution examined on who these individuals

14     were and what the extent of the witness's knowledge was or was not about

15     these individuals and their relationship to the Serbian Volunteer Guard.

16     Towards the end of this examination, I asked the witness whether or not

17     he knew definitively that the people were members of the Serbian

18     Volunteer Guard and whether or not they could have worked for any other

19     organisation other than the Serbian Volunteer Guard.

20             With respect to the four individuals who are deceased, all four

21     of these individuals appear on Serbian DB payment records at the exact

22     time that they, according to these records, that they were killed.  We do

23     intend to later make submissions on this, and it does relate to what the

24     witness knew or may not have known that was in Arkan's own very drawer.

25             So that is a example of documents that were directly produced by

Page 16641

 1     this witness, that he had in his possession for a very long period of

 2     time, that he has now brought to this court.  They were not people that

 3     we focussed on during the course of presenting our evidence, but since

 4     the document's directly related to this witness and what he had and where

 5     he got it from, the Prosecution did examine on that, and also sought to

 6     tendered the documents because it appears, according to at least what the

 7     witness offered as an answer, that he didn't know whether or not they

 8     worked for any other organisation.  We do tend to later compare that to

 9     payment records that we have admitted that show that these individuals

10     were paid by another organisation, that being the Serbian DB.

11             So, in our submission, we met our burden.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, two minutes.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

14             The indictment, paragraph 12, places Arkan as a member of the

15     plurality with Stanisic.  The Prosecution's case is that Stanisic and --

16     was in control of Arkan.  The indictment at paragraph 42 and 43 has Arkan

17     and special units of the DB involved in that attack.  Zvornik,

18     paragraph 57, the same.

19             We have, as the core part of the Prosecution case, the DB and

20     Stanisic and Arkan as close collaborators.  This witness could never,

21     from Mr. Weber's cross-examination, have discerned that.  It is very

22     telling, in our submission, that the Prosecution can cross-examine a

23     witness of this potential significance and not provide any indication to

24     the witness of that case.

25             Now, what, instead, they do, is they go through the back door.

Page 16642

 1     They move around the subject.  They put documents to the witness but

 2     don't tell him why.  If they say this witness - and my learned friend has

 3     just said that they intend to make submissions basically about this

 4     witness's credibility, about his knowledge about the DB and Arkan, by

 5     linking these five men with DB payment records, and then they'll make a

 6     submission at the end and say, See, this witness was lying.

 7             So isn't it fair that they put that to the witness?  The DB, the

 8     payment lists, the men, let's find out what the witness has to say.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Weber, any need to ...

11             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I would just respond to that last point

12     by saying that Mr. Jordash, in his submission on point 4, said whether or

13     not we put it to the witness in any general or specific form.  And we

14     believe we have, by asking the witness whether or not he worked

15     for any -- those individuals worked for any other organisation.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And the witness didn't know, isn't it?  That was his

17     answer.

18             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, part of the witness's testimony also was

20     that there were no links to the MUP.  Why didn't you put the payment

21     lists to the witness, which would -- I mean, if you say there's no link,

22     that's more or less denying the case of the Prosecution, to say, Well, if

23     I would show you payment lists on which the individuals you brought us

24     papers about are reported as having received money, who -- that would

25     be -- the witness may have a good answer to that, isn't it?  That this

Page 16643

 1     money was -- that the lists are forgeries or that ... whatever.  Or that

 2     they got paid for -- for other reasons or ...

 3             MR. WEBER:  Well, I'd be happy to follow whatever the Chamber

 4     guidance is; however, the witness is making blanket denials that he never

 5     had anything to do with the DB, that he had never had any part of the DB,

 6     and I challenged that.  Now to show him documents that come from the DB,

 7     I'm not sure if that's his position, what type of credible answer --

 8     [Overlapping speakers] ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever say, It's our case that there was a

10     link with the DB? because that is what Mr. Jordash is asking you.

11             MR. WEBER:  If Your Honour --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No, not whether you're willing to follow my

13     suggestion.  We are in a legal debate at this moment.

14             Mr. Jordash says under the Rules you should have told the

15     witness, It's our case that there was a link with the DB.  Even to say

16     more:  that there was a link with Mr. Simatovic and Mr. Stanisic.

17             That's ... if I understood you well, Mr. Jordash.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's ... let me consult with my colleagues.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will further consider the matter.  And

22     nevertheless, the Chamber will ask two or three questions to the witness

23     on the matter.  And the parties should not misunderstood this.  This is

24     it purely to avoid that once we finally made up our minds on the

25     debate -- the issue in debate between the parties, that the witness would

Page 16644

 1     be away and we could not even possibly ask him any further questions

 2     about it.

 3             Therefore, and I'll put those questions to the witness very

 4     briefly.  And, again, it will be about putting a case to the witness.

 5     Because one of the concerns is that the witness may be confused.  And if

 6     at a later stage we have to say, "Well, we did not know whether the

 7     witness understood certain things, yes or no," then it's very difficult

 8     to then establish whether he did or not.  Again, that's a step we'll take

 9     at this moment.  But it does not in any way anticipate what our final

10     ruling on the debate will be.

11             Mr. Weber.

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It's 7.00.  I'm looking at the clock.  I even have

14     an urgent other matter to deal with.

15             Yes.

16             MR. WEBER:  I just wanted to note that although we've been

17     discussing five names on specific documents, the witness did mention a

18     lot of individuals throughout the course of his testimony that do appear

19     on the payment records.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so --

21             MR. WEBER:  So if we --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The more reason to put to him that you find them on

23     payment lists, isn't it?

24             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

25             I said I would read another decision.  We will not find time for


Page 16645

 1     that.  At the same time, the Chamber wants the parties to be informed

 2     about that statement.  If I said a decision, that's wrong.  It's a

 3     statement.  It's a statement on bar table motions by the

 4     Stanisic Defence.  We'll just do not find time to read it.  It is there,

 5     however, in written form.  I will put it on the record at a later stage

 6     as reading.  But a courtesy copy, which is very uncommon, will be

 7     provided in order to avoid that the parties will be ignorant until next

 8     Tuesday.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pelevic, I have a few questions for you.  You're

11     still bound by the solemn declaration.

12                           Further Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you aware that it is the Prosecution's case

14     that the SDG, Arkan's men, did have a link with the Ministry of the

15     Interior of the Republic of Serbia, that there were links?

16             Did you know that that is what the Prosecution's case is?  Not

17     whether you agree with that, but did you know that that is what the

18     Prosecution puts here?  Are -- were you aware of that?

19        A.   Yes.  I realized that, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You realized that.

21             Were you also aware that, in this context, that the Prosecution

22     alleges and it's the Prosecution's case that it was not only a link with

23     the Serbian MUP, but that that included direct involvement of

24     Mr. Simatovic and Mr. Stanisic?

25        A.   Yes.  I realized that.

Page 16646

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Would your answers -- apparently you are aware of

 2     that.

 3             I will now put a different matter to you.  A few individuals were

 4     discussed.  We have seen personal documents with the small photographs,

 5     the ones you gave to the Simatovic Defence.  Apart from other prominent

 6     SDG members, four or five members were discussed.  You remember that, the

 7     documents you gave and the reports on who died where and when?  Yes.

 8             Now, it's the Prosecution's case that they were paid by the -- by

 9     the RDB of Serbia, the Ministry of the Interior, and in this case we have

10     seen payment lists on which names appear.

11             Now, on the assumption that the persons we discussed appear on

12     these payment lists, and it is the Prosecution's case that they were paid

13     by the Serbian -- by the MUP Serbia, would that have -- first of all, are

14     you aware that such payment lists do exist?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Would it have influenced your answer in any way if

17     the Prosecution would have told you, "Well, talking about these people

18     who died at certain dates in a certain context --" if the Prosecution

19     would have told you that the names of those persons appear on those

20     payment lists, would you have had an explanation for that, or would that

21     have in any way influenced your answer, the answers you gave?

22        A.   Your Honour, I noticed that these individuals were killed in the

23     Banja Luka Krajina; namely, Kljuc, Sanski Most, and Novi Grad.  They were

24     called by Fikret Abdic, and I said as much.  He was supposed to be paying

25     them.  If he was working for the RDB, then that's something I don't know.

Page 16647

 1     What I do know is that he took upon himself to pay the per diems, not

 2     their wages, but to pay the per diems of the members of the SDG for that

 3     short period that they spent training his soldiers.  That is what

 4     Milan Milovanovic, aka Mrgud, told us, i.e., that the instructions --

 5     instructors of the SDG were financed by Abdic.

 6             What the arrangements were, I don't know.  But since I was in

 7     charge of the finances within the Guard, I know that not a single penny

 8     had arrived from the MUP of Serbia or the DB to the seat of the Guard in

 9     that period of time.

10             Our instructors were receiving the per diems that I mentioned

11     during their stay in the field.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I think I have put the most salient

13     parts of the Prosecution's case to the witness in order to find out.

14     Whatever we'll do with the evidence, but whether there was a confusion on

15     the witness's side.  If there's anything you would like to suggest to in

16     addition put to him, I'm trying to keep peace with everyone, because we

17     are already at eight minutes past 7.00.

18             If there's an important matter you think should be added, then we

19     should do so.

20             MR. JORDASH:  May I just ask a couple of questions?  I think I

21     might be able to --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but then I have to -- I shouldn't have promised

23     anything to the witness.

24             Could you do it in two minutes?

25             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.


Page 16648

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Two minutes.  I'm looking at the interpreters.  I

 2     know that I'm not -- I wished I would not be in this position at this

 3     moment.

 4             Mr. Jordash, two minutes.  And I'll be strict.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

 7        Q.   So, from what you've said, as far as you're aware, finances were

 8     coming from Abdic to Arkan's men who were taking part in Pauk, and you

 9     know that because the -- the -- the paper administration recording that

10     payment came through you; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So if some of Arkan's men were receiving payments from the DB, as

13     far as you're concerned that was outside of the normal financial

14     administration of the Arkan's Tigers, something perhaps more personal

15     between individuals, agreement between individuals from the DB and

16     Arkan -- and a select few of Arkan's men?

17             Do you understand my point?

18        A.   I do understand it.

19             However, I assert that there had never been any sort of deals or

20     negotiations between Arkan and a few -- and a select few, as you put it,

21     because it had -- it would had to have gone through me.  What I state is

22     that our instructors received their payment through the units in the

23     field, and not from the Guards' staff.  And I said that this conversation

24     between Milosevic --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat the names that he

Page 16649

 1     just mentioned.  It was too fast.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please -- the conversation between

 3     Milosevic and ...

 4             And could you then continue your answer.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The conversation between Milosevic,

 6     Karadzic, Martic, and Fikret Abdic.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  I'm happy to leave it there.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You're happy to leave it there.

10             MR. JORDASH:

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pelevic, this concludes your testimony in this

14     court.  I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and

15     for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties

16     and by this Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

17             We adjourn.  And we will resume -- no, before -- one final

18     observation.

19             The Chamber will consider the proposal made and where the parties

20     apparently do not disagree, and we'll later deal with any documents which

21     the parties intended to tender but which they have not yet tendered yet,

22     and the statement which the parties need in order not to -- to have

23     problems in the near future, and the time-limits in there will be

24     available after Court and will be read into the record at a later stage.

25             We adjourn.  And we will resume Tuesday, the 31st of January, at


Page 16650

 1     9.00 in the morning in this same courtroom, II.

 2             And I apologise to the interpreters and all those assisting us.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.12 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 31st day of

 6                           January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.