1 Thursday, 2 February 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic
9 and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 I was informed, Mr. Petrovic, that there was a preliminary matter
12 to be raised by the Simatovic Defence.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
14 Very briefly, yesterday document D678 was admitted as a public
15 exhibit. However, in keeping with the instructions you issued at the
16 start of the testimony of the current witness, it should be admitted as
17 an exhibit under seal.
18 So I would apply for a change of status with regard to that
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since we are in open session, I'll not go into
21 any further details. But the status of D678 is changed into a
22 confidential exhibit. We'll have a further look at it.
23 Then could the witness be brought into the courtroom.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Draca.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I remind you that you're still bound by the solemn
3 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.
4 And Mr. Jordash will now continue his examination -- his
6 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
7 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 WITNESS: ACO DRACA [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]
11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Draca.
12 Just picking up on one issue from yesterday: Dusan Orlovic.
13 When did he leave the RSK, and where did he go? Are you able to confirm
14 that he went to Belgrade and worked from Belgrade?
15 A. He left the RSK sometime in December of 1991. He would
16 occasionally come to Knin on private business, but I wouldn't see him on
17 these occasions. He left for Belgrade.
18 Q. And, as far as you were aware, did not continue acting within the
19 state security within the RSK or conducting any professional business
20 within the RSK of that nature.
21 A. Precisely so.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, the subject I want to now ask you about is the
23 financing of the Krajina MUP and, included with that, the financing of
24 the Krajina DB.
25 Now, you told on the 31st of January that in 1991 as the conflict
1 developed and the Krajina State Security Service was created, it was
2 financed in the same way as the public security service at the early
3 stage through donations.
4 You recall that evidence?
5 A. Yes, that's what I said.
6 Q. Now, could I just inquire as to how you knew that to be the case?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel speak in the mike, please.
8 MR. JORDASH:
9 Q. How did you know that?
10 A. I knew that because I was part of the system. I would see
11 colleagues from both public and state security on a daily basis.
12 Q. Now, there came a point in time when, as you told us, Martic
13 disbanded the DB; November and early December of 1991.
14 You, then, I think you told us yesterday, began working for the
15 TO before then again working for the DB in August of 1992. In the period
16 where you were working for the TO, were you able to view or did you have
17 any information concerning the financing of the Krajina MUP immediately
18 before the Vance Plan and as the Vance Plan was implemented?
19 A. In that period of time, I was practically on the border-line. I
20 wouldn't go to Knin very often. I would go more oven to Benkovac. I
21 think that the cash flow was established by that time and that the
22 government budget financed the police force. But I can't recall exactly
23 when it was that the government was set up and that the budget was
24 basically executed for the first time.
25 Q. Let's try to break this down a bit.
1 First of all, do you agree with me that the way that the RSK
2 authorities interpreted the Vance Plan was to effectively turn - and I'm
3 generalising, but I'll come to specifics in a minute - but was to
4 effectively turn the army into the police force?
5 A. In principle, yes. But with far fewer forces. Most of the RSK
6 soldiers who had been mobilised at an earlier date went home.
7 Q. So what that meant, effectively, was that it was the army which
8 was responsible, as far as the RSK authorities was concerned, with
9 setting up, supplying, financing the Krajina police, post-Vance?
10 A. Since the police had its own budget within the government, I
11 suppose that your statement is true. But I can't tell you to what extent
12 the army contributed towards the finances. At any rate, the police did
13 have its own budget.
14 Q. And let's get to specifics. And there's nothing you've said that
15 I disagree with, I just want to see if you can help us with the
17 MR. JORDASH: Could we have, please, on the screen 65 ter 5599,
18 ERN 0668-2993-B/C/S and -ET, and the e-court page 31, the English, and 31
19 of the B/C/S.
20 Q. This is a notebook written by Mladic. I want to see if you can
21 assist in relation to the details concerning his observations of the
22 implementation of the Vance Plan.
23 Let's go, if we can, straight to e-court page 41 of the English
24 and 42 of the B/C/S. And the date we're looking at is the 20th of
25 February, 1992. And --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, the page we saw just in a flash a
2 minute ago seems to be the one corresponding with the page in B/C/S. So
3 could we move to the --
4 MR. JORDASH: That's the one.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, you --
6 MR. JORDASH: This is the one, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: This is the one. Okay.
8 MR. JORDASH:
9 Q. And Babic [sic] writes:
10 "There is an idea that some of our people be positioned in the
11 government and not only in the MUP and the TO." That's at number 4.
12 At number 5:
13 "Police, they have formed a Krajina police. It must start
14 functioning vertically and horizontally."
15 Number 6, and I'm missing things out obviously, but I'm just
16 trying to move swiftly:
17 "Select the best people for the police."
18 And then at the bottom:
19 "The JNA will supplement admission to the police. The JNA will
20 give three to five --" we're going over the page to B/C/S page 42 and
21 English 42. "The JNA will give three to five people for the Krajina MUP,
22 give blue clothing to the MUP from the RV but not more than 6.000 sets.
23 They are asking for tanks, armoured personnel carriers, and helicopters.
24 They can only get armoured combat vehicles which should be repainted."
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, it was a slip of the tongue when you
1 refer to Babic, I take it.
2 MR. JORDASH: If I did, certainly it was a --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. JORDASH: -- slip of the tongue.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.
6 MR. JORDASH:
7 Q. Is this your understanding of the situation as it's described:
8 the JNA were expected to give some commanding officers to the Krajina
9 MUP, and not only that, they're expected to give, at least according to
10 Martic and at least according to the JNA, certain supplies - weapons,
11 ammunition, and so on?
12 A. That's correct. That's my understanding of the situation,
13 precisely as we read it here.
14 But let me just add. This is no longer the JNA. They had
15 withdrawn. There were only officers who hailed from Krajina. On the
16 22nd of April, the JNA was already gone. In February, they were still
17 insisting, though already preparing for departure.
18 MR. JORDASH: Let's go to page 46 of the English and page 46 of
19 B/C/S. And we're staying with the same date.
20 Q. And Babic -- I do it again. Mladic writes:
21 "The JNA will not pay the police --" this is halfway down the
22 page in English. "The JNA will not pay the police but only our officers
23 active in the MUP and the TO."
24 Now, was that -- from what you've said a few moments ago, that
25 was your understanding, at least in part, that the police would not be
1 financed by the JNA directly. Was it also your understanding that the
2 JNA would finance, though, the officers that it gave - and I say the JNA,
3 but the -- what remained of the army - would -- from Belgrade, would
4 finance the officers who had been placed in commanding roles within the
5 MUP and the TO as well?
6 A. Yes. I was aware of it at the time. It wasn't even considered a
7 secret. That's to say that the officers would continue receiving
8 salaries from their commands. At least initially, because nobody
9 regarded the Vance Plan as something that was going to be happening
10 short-term only [as interpreted], and they didn't know what was going to
11 happen then if things went on for a longer period of time.
12 Q. Were you aware that Martic was making such -- well, on one view,
13 grandiose requests for his police force; requests for helicopters, for
15 A. That I didn't know. This is the first time I'm seeing it.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you.
17 MR. JORDASH: Let's have, please, if we can, on the screen
19 Q. And what I'm going to show you are stenographic records from the
20 187th Session of the Presidency of the SFRY held on the
21 20th of February, 1992, so around the same time as Mladic's entries,
22 beginning at --
23 MR. JORDASH: If we can turn to page 1 so we can see who's
24 present. And just for the record: So we can see that the likes of
25 Petar Gracanin, the federal secretary of the interior, is there; Adzic,
1 acting federal secretary of national defence. Neither of the two accused
2 are present.
3 And if we go to page 45 of the English, please, and page 82 of
4 the B/C/S.
5 Q. And we can see there the section is dealing with "the report on
6 direct preparations for and activities relating to the admission of
7 UN peacekeeping forces?"
8 And just going down to the page to Adzic and his comments. And
9 I'm going to move swiftly through this to save time. Adzic notes that
10 he'd received Martic within 45 minutes. "It seems to me that some things
11 have been misunderstood. He's going for a police force of 20.000 men.
12 No European country has so many policemen. He has asked me for
13 helicopters and 150 all-terrain vehicles. I would have to empty a whole
14 army group, including its soldiers, and give it to him."
15 Then over the page, to page 46 of the English:
16 [As read] "But let me make myself clear: I'll give everything I
17 can give. But we should see tomorrow, and the federal SUP and the MUP of
18 Serbia should be here to see how many policemen should be there, because
19 Krajina cannot be defended by those policemen. There are other ways."
20 One line down:
21 [As read] "I have prepared some airmen's uniforms for them to
22 wear. Serbia probably has to be give something. Some money has to be
23 allocated for making purchases. Weapons - what is available, what is
24 needed - we will give what we can; but I certainly cannot --" sorry, "I
25 certainly can't give them helicopters for the police. Tanks won't be
1 recognised - that won't be given them either -- that won't be given
2 either," et cetera.
3 Are you able to confirm that it was Adzic who was principally the
4 contact who was expected to provide the Krajina police, post-Vance, with
5 what they required: Weapons, ammunition, logistics, and the like,
6 uniforms, et cetera?
7 A. As I'm reading these notes - this is the first time I see it - it
8 seems that all these things were supposed to come from the JNA. Under
9 the Vance Plan, the RSK was not entitled to an army, and that's why
10 Martic was asking for 20.000 men. There was still a threat present at
11 the outlying boundaries of the territory, and we didn't have any armed
13 Q. Are you able to testify to any conversations you had with Martic
14 or any conversations you were told about where Martic was insisting that
15 the police would effectively be the army and that's why he saw it as his
16 duty to approach the likes of Adzic for supplies?
17 A. Yes. We did discuss this topic before the State Security Service
18 was dissolved. Some sort of a peace plan was expected. We didn't know
19 the details. Though Martic was informed - probably somebody from the top
20 Serbian leadership did tell him - that peace forces would be sent from
21 the UN and that the RSK with not be entitled to an army. He knew that he
22 had to sign a peace plan but -- and also that he had to have some sort of
23 a force that would, first of all, maintain law and order, and, second of
24 all, should there come an attack from Croatia, there should be a
25 contingent of armed men, even if they only carried side-arms. I didn't
1 see him for a while after that meeting, so I don't know what his response
2 was in relation to the peace plan and its application.
3 MR. JORDASH: And if we go to page 47 of the English and 86 of
4 the B/C/S, please. We'll see Adzic continuing to speak at this
5 Presidency session.
6 Where he notes -- and I'm interested in the paragraph that
7 begins: "That's what I wanted to let you know."
8 And we can see that Adzic continues to complain about Martic's
9 rather large and ambitious requests. And then he notes:
10 "I believe that once we have resolved this we will request
11 consent from the Presidency for this equipment and these things to be
12 given to the Republic of Serbian Krajina."
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Was it your understanding that this was the chain of authority,
16 effectively, for the supplies coming from Belgrade to the Krajina: Martic
17 to Adzic, Adzic to the Presidency, Presidency make a decision, supplies
18 come to the RSK?
19 A. Precisely. Correct.
20 MR. JORDASH: And if we go to page 49 of the English and 89 of
21 the B/C/S.
22 Q. We'll see a speech by Gracanin, who, I think it's agreed, was the
23 federal secretary of the interior, who's noting in response to a
24 discussion about the Territorial Defence of the RSK refusing to give up
25 their weapons:
1 "All right, we should now look into that," he said. "This is
2 very hard. It's not easy to separate one's self from one's weapon. We
3 should understand them in that respect. But if we have good
4 organisation, those handing over their weapons will certainly find it
5 easier to do so once they have seen that the police are well organised.
6 If this meeting is held tomorrow, we must start working as soon as
7 possible along three or four different lines. As for the financial part
8 with regard to the police, some loans have been taken out."
9 Are you able to testify to what Gracanin said there and the role
10 that Gracanin played in relation to ensuring adequate finances for the
11 RSK MUP?
12 A. Specifically about the financing and whether the RSK government
13 took loans in order to pay out salaries and finance itself, I really
14 don't know that. I'm seeing this for the first time. If there were such
15 borrowings, then that's probably that, and it went to the Krajina
16 government which then probably made the transfer of funds for the police.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. JORDASH: Let's go to D56, please, another document.
19 Q. This document, as you'll see, comes from -- well, I'll wait until
20 it comes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, could we ask one. And we are talking
22 about financing, what is discussed on the 20th of February.
23 Was there any financing foreseen by Belgrade, by Yugoslavia, for
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was still the period when the
1 Yugoslav People's Army existed. All the officer salaries and all the
2 active and reserve units went through the Main Staff or the Ministry of
3 Defence or, as it was called at the time, the Federal Secretariat for
4 National Defence in Belgrade.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And for reservists, did that continue after the JNA
6 was withdrawn?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the withdrawal of the JNA and
8 the organising of the Serbian Army of the Krajina, I think that stopped.
9 I don't know if the defence ministry of the Krajina received loans from
10 the Ministry of Defence of Serbia. It's something that I don't know.
11 But I think that in the beginning the budget of the Krajina government
12 was composed of loans and other donations, because the economy there was
13 not very developed. So I guess that the money was obtained in this way.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So you say it was loans from the federal government
15 rather than other payments.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat: I am not able to say that
17 exactly, if I might put it that way. I was low ranking at the time, so I
18 couldn't really know how the government obtained or borrowed money. Here
19 I see that there were some loans, so I assume that the government did
20 borrow money in order to be able to finance its budget. But I don't know
21 from whom and how it borrowed the money.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You also do not know whether it was limited to loans
23 or whether there were any direct payments in support of the budget. Not
24 being loans.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know if there were
1 any direct payments or how the payments were made or how things were paid
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
5 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps I can hopefully assist a little with that.
6 Could we go to - could we stay with the same document, please - page 47
7 of the English, and B/C/S page 84.
8 I don't know if this is what Your Honour had in mind, but I hope
9 it might assist.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what you're referring to, so I don't
11 know whether it coincides with what I had on my mind. But let's -- ask
12 your questions and I may find out.
13 MR. JORDASH:
14 Q. What we're going to see now again is a continuation of the Adzic
15 speech which we've been discussing. And at the top of the English page,
16 Adzic says:
17 "Martic has made another request, which is not unfounded. Today,
18 between 30.000 and 40.000 reservists from the Krajinas are receiving some
19 sort of food allowance. He says if we discontinue it immediately there
20 will be widespread famine, which is not far from the absolute truth;
21 because that's what people live off there. It's this base money issue.
22 He ... asked that this be extended by at least two or three months, which
23 I don't think should be a big problem; we should do this at the coast of
24 all this - the system should start functioning. And he is asking
25 intelligent questions even though he's not a businessman. Businessmen
1 should go there quickly to establish something, to create something that
2 could support Krajina, because Serbia and the mint certainly won't be
3 able to withstand that."
4 Do you know anything about that, Mr. Draca? When I say "about
5 that," about the supply of food in substitute for wages, with the
6 expectation that reservists would, several months after the
7 implementation of the Vance Plan, then be supported by local businesses?
8 JUDGE ORIE: It may be my lack of knowledge of the English
9 language, but food and food allowance is not the same to me. Food
10 allowance could be in terms of money; whereas, food supplies is that you
11 provide bread or ...
12 "The supply of food in substitute for wages," you said.
13 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour is absolutely right.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes?
15 MR. JORDASH: Yes. It's --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know anything about -- then about payments
17 made to reservists and perhaps to be continued in order to allow them to
18 buy food?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All mobilised reservists in the JNA
20 received their salary by way of daily remuneration. Whoever had their
21 job and was mobilised would receive a part of his salary in the company
22 where he was employed, and the rest he would receive from the JNA per day
23 of service. Martic was probably concerned because the economy was in a
24 shambles because of the war, that because they did not receive proper
25 compensation, they would not have enough means to support themselves.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But the question more specifically was whether you
2 know anything about reservists receiving food allowance which, as is
3 proposed here, which would then continue. And, I take it, to continue
4 even after they were not JNA reservists anymore.
5 Do you know anything about that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is exactly what I was saying.
7 There was no particular compensation for food. But from what I
8 understand of what is written here, what he wanted to say was that the
9 money that they were receiving was enough just for food for them to
11 As far as I know, there was no special compensation for food, but
12 there were per diem payments which were paid out on a monthly basis, but
13 this was very low. It was just enough for food, nothing more.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question focusses on these kind of payments
15 to be continued even after they had quitted their positions as JNA
16 reservists and financed from, if I could say it briefly, Belgrade.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whoever remained in the police
18 units would continue to receive their salary, but no longer as per diems
19 but as a salary from the Ministry of Interior. The financing of the
20 ministry and the government is something that I really cannot talk about.
21 I don't know where they got their funds from.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But if the number of 30- to 40.000 reservists is
23 mentioned, they did not remain in the police force, did they? Reservists
24 of the JNA by that number.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they did not. This is the
1 number that the JNA mobilised by 1992.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
4 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we have D56 on the
5 screen, please.
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, Madam Registrar reminds me that there
8 was an issue about the provenance of D56, a document which had been
9 tendered earlier but was not admitted and was then re-tendered by the
10 Simatovic Defence, but which is, as far as I understand, not in evidence
11 at this moment.
12 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, that's right. It was not admitted.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is there any news about the provenance or ...
16 MR. JORDASH: Well, the part that we indicated provenance before,
17 and we can't really take it any further than that, what I was hoping to
18 do was ask the witness about the contents and see if he can --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. To see whether he can --
20 MR. JORDASH: -- we can get there by different routes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the status of the document is clear.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour. D56.
24 Q. If you have a look at this document coming on the screen and see
25 if can you assist with its contents.
1 If I can summarize what the document appears to be and see if you
2 can comment on this.
3 It appears to be a document sent by Gracanin to Sokolovic of the
4 Serbian MUP explaining the decision of the Presidency which had been
5 dealing with organising or certainly laying out some kind of plan for the
6 organisation of the internal affairs service in the RSK.
7 Do you know anything about this subject? Are you able to confirm
8 any of the contents of the document?
9 A. I'm seeing this document for the first time. In view of the fact
10 that in that period I was not working at the Ministry of the Interior in
11 Knin, I really don't know anything about it.
12 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Let's move on, then.
13 To save time, I will not refer you to a document.
14 MR. JORDASH: P1226 [Realtime transcript read in error "1266"],
15 Your Honours, is -- deals with the financing of the -- sorry, the
16 supplies to the MUP units of the RSK in February of 1992.
17 Could we have on the screen, please, P2445.
18 THE REGISTRAR: The document is under seal.
19 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
20 Q. And, as we can see, this is a federal Secretariat of the Interior
21 document dated the 12th of March, 1992, and it's being sent to the
22 Ministry of Interior of the Serbian DB.
23 And the section I'm particularly interested in, it's an
24 Official Note, as we can see, if we go to the second page, concerning a
25 talk that's been had with Martic on the 9th of March, a talk between
1 Chief Inspector Djurovic and Martic.
2 MR. JORDASH: And if we could go to page 3 of the English and
3 page 3 of the B/C/S.
4 Q. And I want to see if you're able to cast some further light on
5 this issue.
6 So 12th of March, 1992. The report -- and the report notes:
7 "Martic particularly stressed that they no longer had ...
8 reservations with regard to the composition of the SUP staff and that
9 they were fully prepared to accept any form of co-operation with the
11 Which, I suggest, reads as if prior to this Martic not only had a
12 problem with the Serbian DB, but he had a problem with the
13 federal Secretariat of the SUP and had not been co-operating with them
14 prior to this date.
15 Do you know anything about that?
16 A. That is correct. He wasn't co-operating. And as it states here,
17 he had some reserves towards the cadre and the leadership of the federal
18 SUP. But I don't know what the reasons were for Martic's thinking.
19 Q. Does that mean - and I'm not asking you to speculate. If you
20 know, you know; if you don't, you don't - does that mean that -- was that
21 an explanation concerning why Martic and the RSK MUP replied upon
22 donations for a period of time in 1991 and 1992, because they weren't
23 getting any help from the federal SUP and they weren't getting any help
24 from the Serbian MUP?
25 A. Yes. As far as I know, this is a period when there was no help
1 from anyone.
2 Q. And, again, I'm not asking you to speculate, but from this time
3 onwards is it -- is it your understanding that Martic then began to look
4 to the army in Belgrade and then, at times, to the federal SUP for
5 assistance? Professional assistance such as expertise.
6 A. That's correct.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, may I seek clarification.
8 You document you have not used, P1266, where you said was
9 about -- let me see what you said exactly. Which deals with -- you said
10 the supplies to the MUP units of the RSK in February of 1992.
11 As far as I'm aware, P1266 is an instruction to Republika Srpska
12 and Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina to send reports by 8.00 this
13 evening, not specifically focussing on any supplies to the MUP units. So
14 therefore I'm puzzled by -- even if you did not deal with it with the
15 witness, apparently there is some --
16 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I misspoke, and I apologise. I seem
17 to be doing it a lot this morning. It's P1226.
18 JUDGE ORIE: 1226. Thank you.
19 MR. JORDASH: And page 3 of the English.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
11 Page 16855-16856 redacted. Redaction order.
3 I hear of no objections.
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1406 will receive number D679,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
25 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 Now, I don't want to re-start the discussion, but the mere fact
1 that documents are on a web site, as may be known to many of us, does not
2 necessarily mean that it is a public document. I think WikiLeaks has
3 shown that not everything what is found on the web is by its nature meant
4 to be public.
5 So if you would please carefully look at it again, to the
7 And, Mr. Farr, if you would nevertheless try to find out.
8 The document is provisionally put under seal, up to the moment
9 where we -- you have verified what web site you consulted, Mr. Jordash.
10 And, Mr. Farr, you will have an opportunity to further verify as
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. JORDASH: Could we have 1D02090, please.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Can the counsel please repeat the number.
15 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, 1D02090.
16 Q. This is a document, Mr. Draca, which I think you've seen, because
17 it was part of the documents we gave you a couple of days ago. So we
18 ought to move -- be able to move fairly swiftly.
19 Do you recall the document?
20 MR. FARR: Your Honour, at the time these --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr.
22 MR. FARR: At the time these documents were provided to the
23 witness, we indicated that given that the witness was going to have a
24 chance to review them before coming to court, that's it's the
25 Prosecution's position that an independent foundation for knowledge
1 regarding the contents of the document should be established before the
2 document is used so we'll know what the witness is testifying to from
3 personal knowledge and what he may have learned by reviewing the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, would you keep this in back of your
7 MR. JORDASH: Well, this is a document -- I will, Your Honour,
8 but this is a document which relates to the issue we've been discussing
9 for the last 45 minutes, and I think the witness has laid a very serious
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could be, but I do not know what questions you're
12 going to put to the witness, so it's difficult for me to -- to say yes or
13 no to Mr. Farr. That's ...
14 MR. JORDASH: Yes, Your Honour.
15 Q. Let's have a look at the first page just very quickly with
16 reference to a meeting between the SSNO and various representatives from
17 the RSK concerning the replenishment of materiel and technical equipment
18 for the TO units and staffs as well as the police organs and units of the
20 And then going over to page 2:
21 "It was concluded," the document notes, and I quote, "that the
22 police organs and units will be given 20.000 outfits, and a hundred
23 all-terrain vehicles. Regarding other equipment, the MUP was tasked to
24 submit requests on replenishments."
25 When you rejoined the RSK DB, was this the situation that you
1 found, i.e., that requests were being made by -- the RSK MUP on a regular
2 basis to the SSNO?
3 A. As far as I know of the period after I rejoined the
4 Ministry of the Interior, the MUP did not send requests directly to the
5 SSNO. Rather, they went through the RSK government.
6 Q. And then the RSK government went to the SSNO. That was the chain
7 of requests for supplies.
8 A. That's correct.
9 MR. JORDASH: May I tendered the document, Your Honour, please.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It would have assisted me, at least,
11 Mr. Jordash if at the beginning the dates of the document would have been
12 clear to me, but I see now that on the first page it's the
13 7th of April, 1992 .
14 MR. JORDASH: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And I hear of no objections.
16 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2090 will receive number D680,
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D680 is admitted into evidence.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. JORDASH: Could we have 1D02096, please.
22 This is one of several documents which deal with federal
23 secretary and delivering -- and delivery of arms for the reserves and MUP
24 divisions of the RSK.
25 And you've read this document; am I correct? Would you agree
1 that this is consistent with your understanding of how things worked at
2 the time? That's April of 1992.
3 A. That's correct. I agree.
4 MR. JORDASH: And let's go to 1D01370.
5 Q. This is a similar document, dated the 25th of April, 1992. And
6 it's significant, perhaps, insofar as it details supplies but also refers
7 to - halfway down the page or a third of the way down the page:
8 "A Federal Secretariat for National Defence resolution, top
9 secret, number 352-1, dated the 20th of April, 1992."
10 Were you aware of that resolution and it, as described in the
11 document, being designed to fulfil the ammunition requests of the MUP of
13 A. I didn't know of this specific document at the time, but I knew
14 that things like that did occur in practice.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, may I tender the last two documents,
17 but may I also tender from the bar table, with agreement from the
18 Prosecution, similar documents: First of all, 1D02026, relating to the
19 Okucani MUP station; 1D02027, relating to the Knin MUP station; 1D02028,
20 relating to the Petrinja MUP station; 1D02072, relating to the MUP
21 station of Benkovac.
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
24 Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: The first document was 1D2090; this will receive
1 number D681, Your Honours.
2 Then document 1D1370 will receive number D682, Your Honours.
3 Then the next one was 1D2026, will receive number D683.
4 And it seems that I cannot find -- next ones are not picked up in
5 the transcript.
6 MR. JORDASH: 1D02027.
7 THE REGISTRAR: -- will receive number D684, Your Honours.
8 MR. JORDASH: 1D02028.
9 THE REGISTRAR: -- will receive number D685, Your Honours.
10 MR. JORDASH: And 1D02072.
11 THE REGISTRAR: -- will receive number D686, Your Honours.
12 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
13 MR. FARR: And, Your Honour, the transcript doesn't -- as it now
14 stands, doesn't reflect exactly what Mr. Jordash said, just to put that
15 on the record so there's no confusion regarding which documents have
16 which numbers.
17 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that special attention will be paid
18 when reviewing the transcript on the numbers.
19 D681 up to and including D686 are admitted into evidence.
20 Mr. Jordash, you say it's all about distribution of equipment,
21 arms, et cetera.
22 Now, just for my understanding, I think one of the first document
23 or the second was about fire-arms, and we are talking about ten, I think,
24 or 20 -- it's very limited number. Whereas the document now, with the
25 ammunition, is well over a million pieces of ammunition.
1 Is there any further guidance for us to see how the one relates
2 to the other? Of course it could be that there are 200 similar documents
3 with ten weapons. That makes 20.000. And then 20.000 to a million is
4 easier -- is an easier jump than ten rifles or -- I can't get them all on
5 my screen immediately, but I'm thinking in terms of quantities, whether
6 the ammunition matches the number of weapons provided to, if I understand
7 you well, the MUP of Republic of Serbian Krajina.
8 You understand what I -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
9 MR. JORDASH: Yes, I do, but I --
10 JUDGE ORIE: One rifle and 10 million cartridges, I have some
11 difficulties, and, of course, I'm now exaggerating, but I'm trying to --
12 to look at the matters in the context, not having looked at the documents
13 themselves in detail.
14 MR. JORDASH: Certainly from the documents that we have, and have
15 seen, you are not able to correlate between weapons and ammunition. All
16 these are, are effectively lists of ammunition provided, with very little
17 indication of the -- the -- the weapons and the amount of weapons
18 delivered --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. JORDASH: -- or possessed by the MUP.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm saying this because if I would have one
22 rifle and if I would receive a million cartridges, I would consider to
23 share some of it with my neighbours. That's ... therefore, I'm trying to
24 look at the quantitative aspects as well. But if you say there's -- it's
25 difficult to -- to clearly make a link between numbers in this respect,
1 then that is accepted and the puzzle remains.
2 MR. JORDASH: Certainly, Your Honour, the amount of ammunition is
3 noteworthy, because it is --
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I did --
5 MR. JORDASH: -- it is large.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. JORDASH: Especially -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: And, you know, if you have no explanation to provide
9 with this witness, then we move on, and the puzzle is -- remains.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. JORDASH: I'm about to move to Pauk. I don't know if this is
12 a good time for --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's the right time for a break.
14 Could you give us an indication, Mr. Jordash, on how much time
15 you'd need after the break. I think your initial estimate was two hours,
16 or ...
17 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. I think I would like 45 minutes,
18 if I may.
19 JUDGE ORIE: 45 minutes. I think that fits well into the
20 original estimate. You have 45 minutes after the break.
21 And we'll resume at a quarter to 11.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.
25 I'm looking at the clock. It's ten minutes to 11.00 now.
1 45 minutes for you.
2 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we have P1289.
3 Q. I want to deal with the subject of Pauk, Mr. Draca.
4 From what you've told us, you met and discussed at length the
5 issue of Pauk with Fikret Abdic. I want to ask you about a particular
6 view that he may have expressed.
7 MR. JORDASH: P -- P1289, a report from the Republic of Serbian
8 Krajina army. If we go to page 4 of the English, please, and I'm hoping,
9 although I don't have an indication, that's it's page 4 of B/C/S. It's
10 the title the "National Defence of the Autonomous Province of
11 Western Bosnia Forces." And the document is dated
12 20th of November, 1994. And it appears to be some sort of security
14 And the section I'm interested in is the sentence beginning: "A
15 very admiral initiative of F. Abdic to proclaim this area a protected
16 area or to make this area a UN protectorate ..."
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for
19 interrupting. But it seems that my learned friend misspoke when stating
20 the date of the document, and I'm raising this merely to avoid misleading
21 the witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The record says 20th of November, 1994, Mr. Jordash.
23 MR. JORDASH: You're right. And it was -- the document has a
24 stamp which shows it was received on that, it seems, by the Republic of
25 Serbian Krajina government, but in fact the date of the document, the
1 operative time on the front page is stated as 2000 hours on
2 18th of August, 1994.
3 Thank you to Mr. Petrovic.
4 Q. And have you found the section, Mr. Draca, dealing with the very
5 admirably initiative of Abdic to proclaim this area a protected area or
6 make this area an UN protectorate with the help from UNPROFOR was not
7 accepted? Fikret Abdic has accepted negotiations on the local level in
8 order to organise the Defence and gain some time.
9 A. Yes, I can see that.
10 Q. I want to also ask you to look at another document before I ask
11 you a question. 1D05296, which is a letter from Abdic to the then-UN
12 Secretary General Boutros-Ghali, which unfortunately hasn't scanned, it
13 seems, very clearly.
14 MR. JORDASH: We do have a paper copy. Perhaps it would be
15 easier for the witness if we gave him the paper copy.
16 Q. If you just have a skim through this letter, which is a -- as
17 I've said, a letter from Abdic to Ghali, and it's dated
18 7th of October, 1994.
19 Have you had an opportunity to have skim a through it?
20 A. Yes. I've read it careful the day before yesterday when you gave
21 me the documents.
22 Q. Sorry, my apologies.
23 Was this a view that Fikret Abdic was expressing on a regular
24 basis, a view that he was desperate for the UN to come in or the
25 international community to provide assistance to his people in the Bihac
2 A. That's correct. The only difference between this and the
3 previous document lies in the fact that the previous document was written
4 several days before they fled to the RSK territory, whereas this document
5 was produced in such a way that Fikret Abdic complained directly to the
6 UN general -- Secretary-General of the conduct exhibited by the UN forces
7 already at the point after they had fled. A member of the
8 UN Polish Battalion opened fire on the refugees who were attempting to
9 enter the territory of the Republic of Croatia illegally. Everything
10 else, however, is correct, where he describes the sentiments of the
11 people, et cetera.
12 MR. JORDASH: May I tender the Fikret Abdic letter, please,
13 Your Honour.
14 MR. FARR: Your Honour, we haven't received any information on
15 the provenance of this document, so we have an objection to authenticity,
16 pending that.
17 MR. JORDASH: Can I MFI it and we'll provide the information.
18 Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D5296 will receive number D687,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
24 MR. JORDASH:
25 Q. And the reality is as you saw it - is this right? - and the
1 reality is as Fikret Abdic saw it, that absent any action by the
2 international community, absent any action by the UN, the only protection
3 for his people from the 5th Corps was to seek help from Serbia and to
4 seek help from the RSK?
5 Is that a fair summary?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And so that we're clear: Help from an army, the 5th Corps, which
8 was, even by the standards of this Balkans crisis, an extremely vicious
9 army when it came to treatment of civilians?
10 A. That's correct. It was well known, especially the 505th Brigade,
11 was known of their -- for their cruelty towards civilians.
12 Q. And, in fact, one of the problems that Fikret Abdic had was that
13 his own army was actually too frightened, in many respects, to even face
14 the 5th Corps because of that reputation.
15 Is that something that Fikret Abdic talked about?
16 A. That is correct. Fikret Abdic did talk about that. But we also
17 had intelligence information from several sources confirming this to be
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on the screen, please, P1285.
21 It's a document which is a security organ of the Main Staff of
22 the Serbian Army of Krajina, dated the 30th of June, 1994.
23 Q. And I want to go, please, first of all, to the first page so you
24 can just orientate yourself as to the nature of the document.
25 MR. JORDASH: And then if we can go to page 2 of the English and
1 page 3 of the B/C/S.
2 Q. And this is a document which ...
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 MR. JORDASH:
5 Q. If you just have a quick look at that. This is a document which
6 is entitled "Explanation, Situation in the Autonomous Province of Western
8 And on page 2 of the English and page 3 of the B/C/S we have
9 reference to three meetings, the VRSK and the VJ representatives held
10 three meetings with APZB president Fikret Abdic in Lika Kladusa with the
11 aim of preparing an offensive activity by the APZB forces to regain
12 seized territory and liberate new territories ending at the Zezin [phoen]
14 Now, if you go further down the page, you see meetings referred
15 to with Celeketic and Mladic and Perisic and also Stanisic.
16 And then further down the page you see the sentence:
17 "According to Abdic, president of the RSK government
18 Borislav Mikelic was to realize the delivery of weapons and ammunition to
19 the APZB."
20 Was that consistent with your understanding in the middle of
21 1994, that the assistance that was being proposed at that stage was
22 assistance which would, in terms of weapons and ammunition, come from the
23 RSK to Pauk? That was the channel of weapons and ammunition proposed to
24 assist Abdic.
25 Do you agree with that?
1 A. No. Probably you perhaps made an error. Pauk was not
2 established in that period. This is June 1994, when Fikret Abdic and the
3 majority of the people are still in Kladusa. They're still in their
4 territory, but they had lost a part of the territory that they were
5 staying in up until that time. Already at that time, if I can put it
6 that way, there was panic beginning to spread among the population. They
7 didn't know what to do. And so I think this document, as I understand
8 it, is Abdic's attempt to return the territory and was asking for help
9 from the VRSK and the Army of Serbia.
10 Q. And you're absolute right; I misspoke. Let me just clarify this.
11 The period before Pauk began in late 1994, around November, the
12 period before that, this -- the, if we can say, the operations which were
13 perhaps a precursor to Pauk, the weapons and ammunition were coming from
14 the RSK to Fikret Abdic.
15 Is that fair enough?
16 A. That is correct.
17 MR. JORDASH: Now, if we go to -- if we can have, please,
18 65 ter 5609, ERN 0668-2082-B/C/S-ET. And the e-court page 114 B/C/S and
19 115 English. This is a Mladic notebook. And the entry is dated
20 13th of October, 1994, and it's a meeting with commanders of the army of
21 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, 1st and 2nd Krajina Corps, 15 Corps,
22 21st Corps, and 39 Corps.
23 Do you have that?
24 A. I see it, but I don't see the corps that you mentioned. It just
25 states "the commander of the 11th Brigade" here.
1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... You're right. We don't have
2 the right Mladic excerpt on the screen.
3 MR. JORDASH: It should be one relating to the 13th of October,
4 and it should be 65 ter 5609. And it should be page 114 of the B/C/S and
5 115 of the English.
6 Q. Whilst that's coming up, we're going to look at a meeting
7 involving the 1st and 2nd Krajina Corps and the 15th Corps and the
8 21st Corps and the 39th Corps. These were all units of which army,
9 Mr. Draca?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. Sorry. They were the units of the RSK?
12 A. From what I can see, yes, that is right.
13 Q. Okay. Now, this entry dated the 13th of October, 1994, if we go
14 over the page to something that Mladic records General Celeketic saying.
15 Page 115 of the B/C/S and 116 of the English. And Celeketic notes:
16 "We are the Serbian army, one army. Nobody has betrayed you, it
17 was just the way it was. Our MTS situation is worse than yours. We have
18 problems with ammunition. I received the task that we should do as much
19 as we can. Since the Serbian MUP is not coming and since they are not
20 sending the MTS, I will light the fire by the 15th Corps and the
21 39th Corps and help towards Kladusa."
22 Are you able to comment on this discussion? Am I correct that
23 Celeketic was supposed to be providing supplies; was not providing
24 sufficient supplies, according to Fikret Abdic; no supplies were coming
25 from the Serbian MUP in October of 1994 and prior to that?
1 A. Yes, you are correct.
2 Q. So we're clear: How did you -- how do you know that? What's
3 your source of knowledge for that?
4 A. As the chief of the state security department, I was also a
5 member of the Supreme Defence Council of the RSK, and Celeketic did
6 report back about this matter at a meeting. Actually, at several
8 Q. But was -- am I correct that the problem wasn't weapons, because
9 Fikret Abdic had many weapons, in part because the VRS left their weapons
10 to him; is that correct?
11 A. That is correct. The problem was in the ammunition and in
12 artillery shells, of which there was a shortage in the Krajina. And you
13 can see from this text that Celeketic, as the chief of the General Staff
14 of the RSK army, was complaining to Mladic about the things that we were
15 just commenting on just now.
16 Q. And did -- did -- did this -- did that situation then change as a
17 result of Abdic's complaint to Celeketic, and Celeketic's complaint to
19 A. Nothing changed in that period.
20 Q. Did there come a time when it did change during the currency of
21 the Pauk operation?
22 A. Yes. Later, when the operation to return began, the return of
23 the units of the Army of western Bosnia, the Main Staff of the RSK army
24 secured a number of ammunition pieces for the use of Fikret Abdic. But I
25 don't know where that was obtained from, whether it was from the existing
1 VRSK reserves or if they received assistance from Republika Srpska or the
2 Republic of Serbia.
3 Q. Is there any reason why you don't know that? I'm not suggesting
4 you should, but is there any reason why you don't know that?
5 A. The army has its own chains of command, and this is not some
6 major thing that they would need to report to anybody from the civilian
8 Q. Okay. Thank you.
9 I want to now just widen the discussion a little bit to the
10 assistance provided by the RSK to the Pauk operation and Bihac in
12 MR. JORDASH: Could I have on the screen, please, 1D05297.
13 Q. This is a map that we, in the Defence, have drawn. And I want to
14 ask you if this corresponds to your knowledge concerning the locations of
15 the military formations of the 11th Corps in 1994 and 1995 within
16 Eastern Slavonia.
17 A. I can see that this is a map of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja, but
18 I cannot remember. I don't know if I ever knew specifically where all
19 the forces were located.
20 Q. I don't know if the Prosecution dispute this or not, but are you
21 able to give any indication of whether this was your general
22 understanding of the spread of the 11th Corps military formations? Were
23 these the approximate area that they were based in, in 1994 and 1995?
24 A. I assume that that was so. Can I see the deployment. There was
25 concentration along the roads, along the river Drava.
1 Yes, I think that that's how it was.
2 Q. Do you know anything about Mirkovci, as can you see on the map;
3 was there military formations there?
4 A. Yes, they were. Because that place bordered with the Republic of
6 Q. There's been a suggestion in this case that the only military
7 formation in Mirkovci was the Boca's unit, the Skorpions. Do you agree
8 that that's not true?
9 A. Absolutely not. The Skorpions were a paramilitary unit in our
10 mind that was not part of the 11th Corps in Knin. At least as far as we
11 knew. And it was used to secure the Opatovci oil facilities, and it was
12 engaged by the NIK, the oil industry of the Krajina. And I know --
13 Q. Sorry, I interrupted you. You know ...
14 A. As far as I know, during that period that was that -- the task
15 that they were executing, the security for the oil facilities, in order
16 to avoid -- well, how can I put it so that you understand me?
17 They did not belong to the 11th Corps, but so that we would not
18 treat them as a paramilitary unit, they had signed a contract with the
19 oil industry and they were providing security for the oil installations
20 at Opatovci.
21 Q. Just to be clear: They were not based at Mirkovci; they were in
22 Djeletovci; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that is correct. Djeletovci and Opatovci are close by and
24 they were in that area.
25 Q. Erdut at this time --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, could I ask.
2 Could you then tell us which unit of the 11th Corps was in
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly. Some brigade
5 or some battalion that was part of the 11th Corps. But I don't know the
6 names of the units.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Not knowing the names, what's the basis of your
8 knowledge on who were in Mirkovci?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Other than the armed forces of the
10 VRSK and the police, which already in 1994, especially in Slavonia and
11 Baranja where peace had been established for a while, the police was
12 carrying out regular police work. No one could have been in that area
13 other than units of the 11th Corps.
14 I don't know exactly how they were deployed. I really cannot
15 remember that. Perhaps I didn't ever know that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... if you -- if you
17 say - and let me quote you then literally - "No one could have been in
18 that area other than units of the 11th Corps."
19 Now, one of the previous questions of Mr. Jordash was: "They were
20 in Djeletovci," when he was referring to the -- when he was referring to
21 the Skorpions. That's the same region, isn't it? It's a distance of
22 only a few kilometres.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's close by. But Mirkovci
24 was specific because it was the most forward point towards Vinkovci. It
25 was where the first strike was supposed to hit --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part
2 of his answer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last portion of your
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The specific thing about Mirkovci:
6 Its strategic position meant that it was very important for the RSK
7 defence, because it was located in such a place that a possible attack by
8 the Republic of Croatia would be conducted along one of the axes leading
9 to Mirkovci, and that's why Mirkovci was a very fortified location.
10 As for the other villages, Djeletovci, Opatovci, that seems to be
11 very close on the map. They seem very close by. But actually, as far as
12 the defence is concerned, they were not like Mirkovci or had nothing in
13 common with Mirkovci in that sense at all.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you described to us the tasks of the Skorpions.
15 Now, do you know whether they were in Djeletovci, yes or no? Was
16 that compatible with the task they were given? Or don't you just know?
17 I'd like to ... if you know, tell us what the basis of your knowledge is.
18 If you say, "Well, I really don't know; I know what their task was, but
19 apart from that, I do not know whether they were in Djeletovci," please
20 tell us.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as their assignment is
22 concerned, it's exactly as I said what it was before. They were
23 providing security for the facilities of the oil industry. The place
24 where they were billeted, however, as far as I recall, was in Djeletovci,
25 which was in the immediate vicinity.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what's the basis for this recollection?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The State Security Service of the
3 Krajina was observing, or monitoring, this unit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
6 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we have on the
7 screen, please, 1D02572.
8 Q. I want to ask you about Erdut. Am I correct that at this time,
9 the time we're talking about, Erdut -- there was in Erdut the Ministry of
10 Defence; that's where it was stationed?
11 MR. FARR: Sorry, Your Honour, this may be my problem rather than
12 anyone else's, but I'm not entirely clear exactly what time we're talking
13 about at this moment.
14 MR. JORDASH: 1994 and 1995.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Exactly 1994 and 1995, yes.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. JORDASH:
18 Q. Am I correct that the Ministry of Defence was stationed in Erdut
19 in 1994 and 1995? If you can be more specific than me and help Mr. Farr,
20 that would be great.
21 A. The defence ministry seat was in Knin. One of the ministry's
22 buildings was in Erdut, where the deputy minister was staying. Slavonia
23 and Baranja are physically separated from the rest of the Krajina, and
24 all the deputies were located in the ministries, and I think each of the
25 ministries - I'm not sure whether it was each single one - also had
1 offices in the area of Slavonia and Baranja.
2 Q. If you look at the document on the screen dated 21st of June --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic is on his feet.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, everything that the
5 witness said about who is in the offices in the area of Slavonia and
6 Baranja was not recorded in the transcript, so perhaps it would be a good
7 idea to ask the witness to repeat that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat who were in the offices, the
9 offices of the ministries in Slavonia and Baranja.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically in the building that
11 Mr. Jordash asked about was where the deputy minister was located. But
12 other ministries also in that area, perhaps not in Erdut but in
13 Beli Manastir and Vukovar, were also represented in that area.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, unfortunately again
15 it's not stated which deputy of the defence minister was located. The
16 witness said it, but it's not in the transcript.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, your guidance was not very precise in
18 that respect.
19 Apparently you have told us which deputy minister of defence was
20 in the Slavonia and Baranja branch office, if I could say so. Could you
21 give us his name?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not recall the name right now,
23 but it was Janovic [as interpreted], aka, Mrgud. We already referred to
24 him before. Milanovic.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
1 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 21st of June, 1995, an RDB's report. Could we go, please, to
3 page 5 of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S.
4 Q. I'm interested in what it describes as being based in Erdut as
6 "Apart from the army, in the event of Croatia's aggression, the
7 detachment of the PJM of the SUP of Beli Manastir would also be included
8 in the defence and would be attached to the 60th Brigade for anti-landing
9 and anti-sabotage activities. According to establishment, the detachment
10 is part of the brigade and is based in Erdut; it is made up of
11 active-duty and reserve ... officers."
12 Are you able to confirm that this was a unit of armed men in
13 Erdut in 1995?
14 A. I didn't manage to find that paragraph. I would like to read it
15 before I give my answer.
16 Q. Let's -- let me find precisely where that is, but we'll come back
17 to that.
18 In the meantime, I want to ask you about a related topic, which
19 is this: Am I correct that before Pauk and during Pauk battalions from
20 the 11th Corps were being sent on a monthly basis to assist Abdic?
21 A. No. I'm not aware of that.
22 Q. What about during Pauk? Isn't it correct that battalions from
23 the 11th Corps were being sent during Pauk?
24 A. The word "battalion" is exaggerated. These may have been
25 individual groups of officers. I don't know of a single battalion having
1 come to the aid during Pauk.
2 Q. Smaller military units then. Are you aware of military units
3 being sent? Let's stick with that. If you're not, you're not. I mean,
4 I don't want to detain you if you don't know something.
5 A. I don't know about that.
6 Q. I'm going to return to a subject, but it looks, because you don't
7 know this subject, as though I'm actually going to finish on time.
8 MR. JORDASH: May I take instructions, Your Honour?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I add something?
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'll give you an opportunity to add something after
13 we've heard from Mr. Jordash.
14 Mr. Jordash.
15 MR. JORDASH: If I can ask a few more questions, not many, I
16 think I'll --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Then perhaps we first give an opportunity to the witness to add
19 something to, I take it, one of your previous answers.
20 Please add whatever you'd like to add.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As discussed yesterday,
22 Milorad Ulemek, Legija, came along with a group to Pauk. He had been at
23 the centre in Erdut. The Skorpions, too, appeared for the Pauk
24 operation, but for a couple of days only, before they returned to
25 Slavonia. If these are the units you meant, then I can confirm that.
1 But there were no battalions coming from the 11th Corps.
2 MR. JORDASH:
3 Q. I think we'll have to disagree on that, Mr. Draca.
4 JUDGE ORIE: There's no reason to express agreement or
5 disagreement --
6 MR. JORDASH: Okay. Sorry.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- with the witness, Mr. Jordash.
8 MR. JORDASH: Sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please put your next question to the witness.
10 MR. JORDASH:
11 Q. Could you briefly explain what the role of --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I see that we were "[Overlapping
13 speakers] ..." Not saying who overlapped who, but I'd like to have this
14 clearly on the record:
15 I said there's no reason to express agreement or disagreement
16 with the witness, and apparently you agreed. And I invited you to put
17 your next question to the witness.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. JORDASH:
20 Q. You say there were no battalions coming from the 11th Corps, and
21 you've told us that the group led by Ulemek and also the Skorpions did go
22 to Pauk. Were they sent by the 11th Corps?
23 A. That's right. At the proposal of Deputy Defence Minister
24 Milanovic, that I've mentioned.
25 Q. Were any smaller units sent, do you know, by the 11th Corps at
1 any point to assist in the Bihac operations?
2 A. I don't know about it, truly. There may have been, without my
4 Q. Do you know the role of the 21st, the 17th, and the 39th Corps in
5 the Bihac operations?
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I ask which period you're
8 referring to? Because there were several operations around Bihac in the
9 span of four years.
10 MR. JORDASH:
11 Q. Well, let's stay with, first of all, with pre-Pauk 1994. Do you
12 know if those corps had a role to play in the operations to assist
13 Fikret Abdic?
14 A. Their role was to tie up forces of the 5th Corps towards Bihac so
15 that they may not have extensive forces in the direction of Kladusa to
16 mount resistance to Abdic's forces. Now, which elements of the corps
17 were sent to the Bihac region or which units were sent from within that
18 corps, I truly don't know.
19 Q. Do you know whether they continued to have a role in Pauk? And
20 if so, what was the role?
21 A. Yes. Until the end of the operation, they engaged in combat in
22 the direction of Bihac. That was their basic role. Perhaps it would be
23 important to say that the military and state leadership of the RSK was of
24 the view that they should not enter that territory, but engage in combat
25 along the boundaries merely to tie up the forces of the corps.
1 The same thing was agreed with the VRS, who did the same thing at
2 their end of that region.
3 Q. And the VRS did it with their special brigade of the MUP Srpska;
4 is that correct?
5 A. In part with them too.
6 Q. Now I want to just ask you about two documents --
7 MR. JORDASH: If Your Honours allow.
8 Q. -- very quickly.
9 JUDGE ORIE: These are the last ones?
10 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
12 MR. JORDASH: Could we have, please, on the screen 1D05293.
13 English page 48, B/C/S 46, ERN 0-- sorry, B/C/S 47. ERN 0415-1185.
14 Q. And these are intercepts, or summaries of intercepted
15 conversations. And I want to ask you about two of them.
16 MR. JORDASH: English page 48 and B/C/S 47. ERN 0415-1185.
17 Q. It's 25th of August, 1995:
18 "Today at 4.00 p.m. in Ilok the commander of the 11th Corps,
19 General Dusan Loncar, will meet the General Bora Ivanovic, the
20 co-ordinator between Yugoslavia army and the 11th Corps of SVK. The
21 topic of the meeting is not known."
22 Are you able to confirm that that was the role of Ivanovic?
23 A. No. Unfortunately I can't confirm that because I don't know
24 about it.
25 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Let's go to one more.
1 MR. JORDASH: Document -- same 65 ter, English page 49, B/C/S 48,
2 ERN 0415-1258.
3 Q. This intercept relates to the document which we started to look
4 at, and it notes from discussions of Obrad Stevanovic (MUP Serbia) who is
5 in command of the 11th Corps, we learn that two divisions of active
6 police officers (special police officers) have been sent from Serbia to
7 occupied territory today on the 21st of October, 1995."
8 Do you know anything about that, or Obrad Stevanovic's role?
9 A. No, I don't know much about it. By that time Knin had fallen and
10 the RSK was destroyed. I was no longer involved in that job. So I
11 wasn't in a position to be privy to details surrounding these meetings.
12 MR. JORDASH: No further questions.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
14 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Mr. Jordash, it's only a couple of minutes ago that I said there
17 would be no need to express disagreement with the witness. Unless, of
18 course - and that's not what I thought you were doing, but I might be
19 wrong - that you were eliciting evidence in support of your own case and
20 that you were about - apart from disagreeing with the witness - to put to
21 the witness what your case is so as to give him an opportunity to explain
23 I didn't gain that impression for two reasons: First, because
24 the witness spontaneously asked to add something, so it was not
25 specifically perhaps on a question you put to him. And the second is
1 that I gained the impression that you just wanted to say, "We disagree,"
2 without that being a first step to put to the witness what your case was.
3 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes, and we first -- I don't know if
4 it's worth me saying what our case is on that, or ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I know that you're very precise on the
6 Rule 90(H)(ii), so therefore I wanted -- when I stopped you at that
7 moment, I don't know whether this is such a detail of your case or I
8 don't know whether you seek to -- the witness to further explain. It
9 might be fair to the witness. That's the only thing I can say.
10 MR. JORDASH: Well, the witness has said that smaller units may
11 have been sent, he just doesn't know. And it's our case that smaller
12 units or units of --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please address the witness if you ...
14 MR. JORDASH:
15 Q. Well, just so you know, Mr. Witness, that we suggest that units
16 were being sent from the 11th Corps on a fairly regular basis. Now,
17 whether they were the size of a battalion or smaller, we've not been able
18 to ascertain that, but we're saying that certain -- certainly units other
19 than Skorpions and other than Ulemek's Group were sent on a regular
21 You understand our position?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Does this trigger any addition to the answer
23 you gave earlier? If not, we'll proceed.
24 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If I can add, just briefly,
2 that the size of a battalion is over 500 men. And perhaps that's the
3 point which added to the confusion. It is quite possible that smaller
4 units did come, but I wasn't aware of it. And besides, I added that I
5 wasn't a military expert.
6 MR. JORDASH: Can I ask one further question?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
8 MR. JORDASH: Just this:
9 Q. You and I have never met, have we? Or you've never met anyone
10 from the Stanisic Defence team.
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, are you ready?
15 I would have one question to the witness. And I sometimes put
16 them to the witness in order not to lose the context in which the
17 previous questions were asked.
18 Mr. Draca, Mr. Jordash took you to document P1289, which
19 describes the whole situation with the 5th Corps and Bihac and the
20 admirable initiative to -- to -- to put it under protection.
21 You remember that document and the issues discussed in that
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was the document which was shown to you
25 prior to the letter by Mr. Abdic to -- to New York. That's -- it's
2 Now, was there any role for Mr. Stanisic to be played in that
3 ongoing -- these ongoing events?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me say that the top leadership
5 of the Republic of Serbia, yes. That was our estimate. We saw Serbia as
6 the guarantor of the agreement signed between the Republic of the Serbian
7 Krajina and Republika Srpska.
8 When we look at the problem more generally and in relation to the
9 international community, the RSK leadership, having no other contacts,
10 was gravitating toward President Milosevic. The Republic of Serbia at
11 the time was a recognised country. It had its diplomacy. And all of the
12 factors were conducive toward Belgrade.
13 Now, to what extent there were reactions from Belgrade and from
14 whom, that's something I don't know.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You said: "... having no other contacts, was
16 gravitating toward President Milosevic."
17 My question is: Was there any -- I do understand that
18 President Milosevic, being the head of the government, was interested --
19 was there any specific involvement of Mr. Stanisic? So, next to
20 President Milosevic.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're discussing the period up
22 until Operation Pauk and during that operation. I don't know if
23 Mr. Stanisic was involved, save for the fact that we sent reports to the
24 top echelons of state security on refugees, et cetera, because we could
25 not approach Milosevic.
1 So we did inform the State Security Service of both
2 Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbia on the situation in Kladusa.
3 Now, as to whether Mr. Stanisic received any tasks relating to these
4 issues from President Milosevic, that's something I don't know.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking you this question because the document
6 that was shown to you - that was P1289, the document with the "admirable
7 initiative" - was delivered to the president of the Republic of Serbia
8 but specifically also delivered to the MUP and, further specifications,
9 Jovica Stanisic. Whereas, I do not see any reference to the
10 State Security Services of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina. That's
11 the reason why I put this question to you, whether -- what explains that
12 the MUP in the person of Mr. Stanisic is specifically mentioned as one of
13 the entities or persons the report of Major-General Borislav Djukic
14 should be delivered to.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the document before me
16 right now. If I remember correctly, it was a dispatch. Under those
17 circumstances, nobody would send them to us, and I mean from the army.
18 As for the fact that Mr. Stanisic was addressed there, was among
19 the addressees, I said that the same was done by the army command when it
20 came to the Kladusa area, that they would inform those in charge of state
21 security of the events in the area.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Mr. Farr, are you ready to start your cross-examination?
24 MR. FARR: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed. And I'm looking at the clock.
1 We'll start with the first eight minutes, until we take a break.
2 Please proceed.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Farr:
4 Q. Sir, the first thing I'd like to ask you about is armed units of
5 the SAO Krajina DB.
6 Did the SAO Krajina DB ever have any armed formations or groups
7 of its own?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You were not aware of any -- of the SDB ever training its own
10 strike and sabotage groups; is that correct?
11 A. As far as I know, the SDB of Krajina did not have such units.
12 Q. I'd also like to ask you about armed forces of the DB of the
13 Republic of Serbia operating in the RSK.
14 Did you ever come across any information indicating that the
15 State Security Department of the MUP of Serbia controlled any armed
16 forces inside the RSK?
17 A. I don't have information to that effect. Although the frequent
18 subject of discussions were various groups introducing themselves, and
19 Martic at some point did say that these people should be talked to so
20 that we could establish whether they were really members of the DB of the
21 Republic of Serbia. We thought it unacceptable that they should be
22 present in our area without us knowing about it.
23 In the main, we would establish that this was just propaganda. I
24 don't have of any such units present in the RSK, save for a group of
25 armed people arriving for the purposes of Operation Pauk and providing
1 security to the convoy.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 52, line 9, the
4 witness did also characterise what sort of propaganda it was. I don't
5 want to say anything further lest I should suggest that to the witness.
6 But it's not complete.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Did you qualify the propaganda, Mr. Draca? Could you please
9 repeat what kind of propaganda it was.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First we should bear in mind it was
11 war time and there was general confusion. There were groups, including
12 criminal groups --
13 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm going to stop you there. There is an issue
14 about your answer perhaps not having been completely translated. So I'd
15 like you to repeat the word you used in the context of propaganda.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The fact is that they falsely
17 introduced themselves or falsely represented themselves as members of the
18 DB of Serbia so that they would not incur any sanctions.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: So that they would
20 not be mobilised.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps the most
23 expedient way would be to re-hear the whole portion and have corrections
24 made, rather than waste time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Usually I leave it to the witness first and I try to
1 do my utmost best.
2 What apparently did you hear the witness say in relation to
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that it was for
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Now, I leave it to the parties whether they consider it of such
8 importance to have this all verified, whether it's self-promoting
9 propaganda or just propaganda, I leave that at this moment to the
11 Mr. Farr, you may proceed.
12 MR. FARR:
13 Q. I think you mentioned that -- going back to these allegations of
14 paramilitary forces sent by the Serbian DB - you said that Martic said
15 you should look into this, and then you indicated that you concluded
16 that -- that these weren't true. Was Martic -- was Martic satisfied with
17 those conclusions that these were not members of paramilitary formations
18 sent by the Serbian DB?
19 A. Precisely so, yes. He was satisfied. We did file criminal
20 reports against some of these.
21 Q. Okay. During your examination by Mr. Jordash, you told us that
22 you were a member of the Supreme Defence Council of the Republika Srpska
23 Krajina. Can you tell us who else were members of that Supreme Defence
25 A. The president of the Republic, prime minister, commander of the
1 Main Staff, minister of the Interior, Speaker of the Assembly of the
2 parliament of the republic, minister of the interior and his two
3 assistants for public and state security.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take this answer as a link again to
5 P1289, those to whom this report was addressed, we find both the
6 president of the republic and the prime minister. And since the witness
7 used exactly the same words, but at the bottom of P1289, it is two times
8 the same text with the same translation, rather than making a difference
9 between the -- I think it's "predsednik," simple, or "predsednik vlade,"
10 and the witness used exactly these same two words, which are, at the
11 bottom of P1289, not translated accordingly to what we now here as the
12 difference between the president of the republic and the prime minister.
13 Could you please review the translation of P1289 in this respect.
14 You may proceed. No, perhaps I interrupt you. Perhaps we first
15 take a break.
16 We resume at 12.30.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.34 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, you may proceed.
20 And could you please finish in an hour from now, because I have a
21 few procedural matters to raise. Even let's finish at 12.30 [sic] so
22 that I can deal with the procedural matters.
23 MR. FARR: At 1.30; correct, Your Honour?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 1.30.
25 MR. FARR:
1 Q. Sir, just before the break we were talking about the membership,
2 the SDC, and you indicated that the commander of the Main Staff was one
3 of the members. That's the commander of the Main Staff of the SVK;
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. You also said the minister of the interior and his two assistants
7 for public and state security. The two assistant ministers were
8 Rade Kostic and Ilija Kojic; is that correct?
9 A. No. I was the assistant for state security, and Nebojsa Pavkovic
10 was in for public security.
11 Q. Is it correct that the assistant ministers of the interior for
12 the RSK were Rade Kostic and Ilija Kojic? Is that correct?
13 A. That is correct. They were assistants for the eastern Baranja
15 Q. Were you yourself an assistant minister, or no?
16 A. Yes. The status also included, or implied, the post of assistant
17 minister of the interior.
18 Q. And the president of the republic was Milan Martic; correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Can you just tell us in two or three sentences what the function
21 of the SDC of the RSK was?
22 A. The exchange of information for the political leadership by the
23 Ministry of the Interior and the army and the orders and instructions of
24 the political leadership towards the army and the military, not only
25 them, but towards all segments of the society in the RSK, as well as the
1 adoption of all important decisions. No decisions could be made without
2 the Supreme Defence Council.
3 Q. Is it fair to say that it essentially amounted to co-operation
4 between political and military officials regarding security and military
6 A. Yes. Correct.
7 Q. And during what period were you a member of the SDC?
8 A. In the period from the spring of 1994 until 1995; August 1995.
9 Q. And did that coincide with your -- the period during which you
10 were the head of the RSK DB?
11 A. Not the entire period. I was at the head of the RSK state
12 security from June, and --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down
14 and to repeat his answer.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, first of all, slow down. And, second,
16 could you repeat your answer. What is on the record now is that you
17 said: "Not the entire period. I was at the head of the RSK state
18 security from June ..."
19 And could you repeat from what you said then.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From June 1993. And then, at the
21 proposal of the president of the republic, from May 1994, they added two
22 new members as assistant members, the chief of the public security
23 service and the State Security Service to the Supreme Defence Council, in
24 order to be able to report to the leadership about the
25 intelligence/security situation and the situation in the field.
1 MR. FARR:
2 Q. Now, going back to the question of the chief of the public
3 security service and the State Security Service, is it correct that there
4 was one chief of the State Security Service for the Knin area and another
5 one for the Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem area?
6 A. No. I don't know how it was in 1991, while Dusan Orlovic was the
7 head of the State Security Service in Knin, but since the new service was
8 established in August 1992 onwards, there was one chief for the whole
10 But I have to add, here, that the area of Slavonia and Baranja
11 was very specific, and frequently there were political conflicts with
12 the -- some politicians from Knin. So they had their deputies in all the
13 ministries in order to avoid political conflicts. So they were
14 frequently permitted to make decisions, bypassing the government of the
16 Q. Okay. Yesterday you talked about a meeting on the
17 3rd of September, 1993, and we saw some pictures from it as well. That's
18 the meeting that both you and Captain Dragan attended. Was that an SDC
20 A. No.
21 Q. I'll just read what you said about that meeting. You said:
22 "The meeting was held in early September. It's a meeting that
23 was held every three months or so. It was a briefing for the prime
24 minister, which included all the factors of security in the territory of
25 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, senior officers, the minister, the
1 assistants for internal affairs, civilian protection, and everything that
2 had to do with security organs in the RSK area. Usually it would last
3 all day --"
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you also slow down.
5 MR. FARR:
6 Q. "Everybody would submit their reports to the prime minister, and
7 this is where the directives were given. The government would issue
8 directives for future work."
9 And that's page 16796 of the transcript.
10 You said these meetings were held every three months or so. Did
11 they have any particular name?
12 A. No, they didn't have any particular name. We referred to them as
13 briefings. The instructions given by the government at such occasions
14 had more to do with some political forecasts. And generally, if there
15 was a meeting of the SDC, that was a much smaller body, and the outcome
16 of the meeting would be confidential.
17 At this meeting that we saw footage of, we would always go with a
18 large number of lower-ranking officers so that at those meetings where
19 reports were submitted at these briefings, sometimes more than 50 people
20 would take part in -- in the meeting.
21 Q. You said that the assistants for internal affairs attended those
22 meetings. Who were those people?
23 A. The Ministry of the Interior had a number of assistants and
24 chiefs of administrations. I don't know if I should refer to all of them
25 by name or ...
1 Q. It would probably be sufficient if you could just tell me whether
2 either Ilija Kojic or Rade Kostic attended.
3 A. No, they did not attend. I cannot remember if they ever attended
4 any briefings like that. Simply because it's a little bit too far for
5 them to get organised and to come to that meeting. That was the only
7 The one that we saw the film footage of was a meeting that they
8 did not attend.
9 Q. All right. I'd now like to turn to your relationship with the DB
10 of Serbia during your time as the deputy head and the head of the RSK DB.
11 And can we just start -- to begin with, can you tell us what
12 dates exactly you were the deputy head? It started in August 1992, if I
13 understood you. Until what point were you deputy head?
14 A. I was a deputy until the 23rd of June, 1993. After that date
15 until the fall of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina I was the chief of
16 the sector, the service.
17 Q. And in your evidence yesterday you indicated that you shared some
18 intelligence information with the 2nd Administration of the SDB of
19 Serbia. Would that take the form of written reports or oral
20 communication or both?
21 A. In this way and that way and with all the departments. And it
22 would depend on the text or the information.
23 Q. In terms of written reports, to which administration would you
24 say you sent the majority of your written reports? Or can you even say?
25 Was it approximately equal, or was there one administration that you sent
1 more reports to?
2 A. Well, it's hard to say right now which ones were more numerous. If there
3 was some security matters that needed to be checked, that would be sent
4 to the 1st Administration. The 2nd Administration of the RDB of Serbia,
5 which was in charge of cross-border issues, we would send them information
6 about the situation in the area of Krajina, about the movements of some
7 troops, or the international community. What we felt would be important
8 information to be reported to the Serbian state leadership, that was the
9 sort of information that we would send solely to the 2nd Administration.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
11 MR. PETROVIC: [No interpretation]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We receive no interpretation at this moment. At
13 least I do not.
14 And could you please repeat what you just raised, Mr. Petrovic.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the first four words
16 in line 13 on page 60, it was not understood what the witness said, so
17 perhaps this could lead to a wrong conclusion being drawn. So perhaps it
18 would be best to clarify that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll try to clarify.
20 Witness, you said:
21 "If there was some security matters that needed to be checked,
22 that would ..."
23 And what did you then say about the 1st Administration?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that this kind of
25 information was sent to the 1st Administration.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid, no.
2 Since we did not clarify the situation since this refers to what we're
3 talking about, line 12 -- is in line 12 and the work of the
4 2nd Administration that is -- is in charge of the question of borders.
5 That is what it states here. At least that's how I understand it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, I have
7 that -- I have that on a different line.
8 But when you told us about the 2nd Administration, what was the
9 2nd Administration in charge of?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not mention the border. I
11 said "zagranicni rad," meaning cross-border information compiling all
12 kinds of intelligence and data that refers to the area across or outside
13 of the borders of the Republic of Serbia. So this is a
14 counter-intelligence function, not an intelligence function.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Farr.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] This is now clear, Your Honour.
17 Thank you.
18 MR. FARR:
19 Q. And in addition to sending written reports to the Serbian DB, I
20 assume you also sent written reports to your own government, the RSK
21 government; correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Focussing on the 2nd Administration of the Serbian DB in
24 particular: Did you send more reports to your own government - to the
25 RSK government, that is - or to the 2nd Administration of the DB of
2 A. We sent an immeasurably larger number of reports to the
3 government. When I say the "government," I mean the president of the
4 republic. We were obliged on a daily basis to make a cross-analysis of
5 all the political events, and these reports were issued daily. Then
6 there were weekly separate reports, which were a compilation of all of
7 this information. We did not have such a voluminous contact with the
8 2nd Administration.
9 Q. Can you estimate approximately how many reports you would send to
10 the 2nd Administration in a day, a week, a month? Whatever period is
11 convenient for you.
12 A. In January 1993 it was not very large, but with the maturity and
13 growth of our service, I think that by 1995 we could say that it would be
14 one or two reports or requests from us to them per week.
15 It would all depend on the work. Sometimes two weeks would pass
16 without us sending anything. But let's say that that was the number.
17 Q. And I assume you also sent written reports to the SVK; is that
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Did you ever send reports personally to Jovica Stanisic?
21 A. Yes. There were reports that were directly addressed to
22 Jovica Stanisic but a very few of them.
23 Q. What did they concern?
24 A. Mostly it was about the situation around Velika Kladusa and
25 Fikret Abdic. Perhaps there was some other information that had to do --
1 well, mostly the communications towards Mr. Stanisic would be occurring
2 during preparations for international conferences or initiatives for
3 peace agreements; whereas, part of -- or in order to prepare for such
4 conferences, we would inform the Serbian state security leadership about
5 security and international forces.
6 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Stanisic would have received most of the
7 reports you sent to the 2nd Administration as well?
8 A. I don't know that. I really -- I couldn't know that.
9 Q. Would the normal procedure in a security service of the kind that
10 you worked in be to forward the most important points from reports
11 received to the head of the -- the service?
12 A. Yes. The procedure is such. In between is the analysis
13 administration which would then make an assessment what would need to be
14 done and whether the report would need to be sent on.
15 Q. And after you sent these reports to the 2nd Administration and to
16 the Serbian DB in general, they would then send the information on to
17 whomever needed it. In other words, if you sent them something -- if you
18 sent them something that the VJ needed, they would send it to the VJ; if
19 they -- if you sent them something that President Milosevic needed, they
20 would send it to President Milosevic. Is that correct?
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you permit me, I
22 think that the testimony of this witness is being characterised
23 erroneously. He's not talking about reports only or only about the
24 2nd Administration. This is clear from the things he stated today and
25 yesterday; thus the communication did not proceed in the way that my
1 learned colleague explains in his question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
3 MR. JORDASH: May I also add to that what Mr. Farr was keen to
4 establish before, which was foundation. We move from sending reports to
5 the DB and the witness not knowing what happened to them to a presumption
6 that the witness knew that they were going to the VJ, and so on.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr.
8 MR. FARR: Your Honour, that was a question, not a presumption.
9 I was seeking to get the witness's knowledge of that.
10 With respect to the issue of foundation, I think this witness has
11 testified about a great deal of things for which there were no obvious
12 foundation. He's been presented as a witness with -- [Overlapping
13 speakers] ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: So you would say --
15 MR. FARR: -- almost a universal knowledge of the workings of the
16 security services in both Serbia and the other Serb entities elsewhere.
17 I'm happy to ask him if he knows and if so how he knows, but I don't
18 think that would be consistent with what happened on direct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You complained a couple of times about lack of
20 foundation, I think, and I granted most of these objections or at least I
21 suggested a reformulation. So for that reason, if only for that reason,
22 you're invited to follow the suggestion and make a clear distinction
23 between what you put to the witness and what you ask the witness.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. FARR:
1 Q. Sir, do you know what the Serbian DB would do with the
2 information you provided to the 2nd Administration in written reports
3 after they received that information? And if so, can you tell us how you
4 know that.
5 A. As an employee of the State Security Service, I know the
6 procedure of sending reports, receiving reports, and passing reports on.
7 That is why I said before that there is an analytical or an analysis
8 administration which would assess whether a particular piece of
9 information was topical and important enough to be sent to the deputies
10 or to the chief of the service. I don't know how they went. They did
11 not report back to us, nor is that in the nature of the service's work,
12 to inform us about what happened to the information.
13 What you asked about Yugoslavia, we did send the information on
14 from time to time, but it went through the command of the Main Staff. We
15 also would send information directly to the public security service, and
16 that did not go via the DB, but we would address our requests sometimes
17 directly to the public security service.
18 Q. And, sir, you yourself worked in the Serbian DB from the
19 1st of September of 1995 until the 31st of March, 2007, either in the
20 Serbian DB or in its successor BIA; correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And it was the policy of the Serbian DB to provide security
23 information to whatever relevant organs of the Republic of Serbia needed
24 that information; correct?
25 A. Correct. Besides, that's how all the services in the world work.
1 Q. And as an example of that: If something had military
2 significance, it would be provided to the army; correct?
3 A. Well, to this day, after so many years of experience, I don't
4 know how the BIA director or -- this thing called external information
5 flow. Who that reaches, I don't know. But I suppose if there is a
6 matter of urgency or a military matter, then the army would be notified
7 of it. Unless the military service had got hold of the information
9 Q. And when you were chief of the RSK DB, you would, of course,
10 provide all militarily significant information to the Main Staff of the
11 SVK; correct?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Now, you've given us some examples of the things that you would
14 have reported on to the 2nd Administration of the Serbian DB. Did you
15 also report to the Serbian DB about internal political conflicts or
16 struggles in the RSK?
17 A. Occasionally, yes. Not in very many cases though. But in those
18 instances where it could impact on the peace plan or any sort of peace
19 initiative. Oftentimes internal political jostling led to failed
20 political initiatives arriving from, say, President Milosevic.
21 Q. And is it correct that one of the reasons for informing the DB of
22 Serbia about these internal political conflicts was so the DB of Serbia
23 or other Serbian authorities could intervene and mediate those conflicts?
24 A. Again, I' not able to answer the question because my role was
25 simply to brief or give proposals. And in certain instances I might have
1 said that it would be useful for President Milosevic to become involved
2 to make sure that a peace initiative went through, but I'm not sure if
3 that was indeed what transpired.
4 Q. When you personally sent reports to the Serbian DB, did you ever
5 do it with the hope or desire that it would cause Serbian authorities to
6 intervene in the political -- internal politics of the Krajina in order
7 to cause the Krajina government to function in the way you thought it
8 should function?
9 A. That's right. But in most of the cases it didn't have to do with
10 the internal workings. Rather, with an international problem that
11 emerged as a result of an internal political conflict. As an ordinary
12 citizen, I wanted there to be peace. I knew that. And I used to, in
13 such circumstances, put forth such proposals because I knew that
14 President Milosevic was the individual who carried the most authority
15 vis-à-vis the RSK and the politicians who were actively involved. I
16 thought it positive and desirable for President Milosevic to intervene
17 with them. But I was never in a position to openly ask for such a thing.
18 Q. You just said:
19 "I thought it was positive and desirable for President Milosevic
20 to intervene with them."
21 Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but this means that your
22 expectation must have been that your report would go from you to the
23 Serbian DB, from the Serbian DB to Mr. Milosevic, and Mr. Milosevic would
24 then intervene in the affairs of the Krajina, in your view, for the
25 better; is that correct?
1 A. I doubt that a report of mine in that format would ever have been
2 taken to President Milosevic. But I do presume that, otherwise, the man
3 would have been informed of all these events.
4 Q. Right. It would have been the information in your report, rather
5 than the report itself; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. So we've talked about reports that you sent to the DB of
8 Serbia. Did the DB of Serbia also send written reports or other written
9 communications to you?
10 A. Yes. Occasionally we did receive them.
11 Q. And, similarly, you would forward that information to whomever
12 you thought needed it in the RSK authorities; correct?
13 A. We didn't receive reports about internal political matters of
14 Serbia. The reports that the Serbian DB sent to us in Knin had to do
15 with specific developments that they would draw our attention to. It was
16 a wide range of issues. I don't know how far you would want me to
17 explain it to you.
18 I didn't need to inform the president of the republic of them or
19 anything of that sort. Those were issues that related to the service.
20 Q. Were some of them military matters?
21 A. No, never.
22 Q. So the Serbian DB never sent you a written communication
23 regarding military matters that might be relevant for the SVK; is that
25 A. No. I had never received a report that would relate to anything
1 connected with the SVK.
2 Q. Do you have any knowledge of anyone in your service ever
3 receiving information from the Serbian DB and forwarding it to the SVK?
4 A. I don't remember anything of that sort.
5 MR. FARR: Your Honours, could we please move briefly into
6 private session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 16909-16910 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 MR. FARR:
15 Q. Sir, what about a man named Slobodan Jarcevic. Was he the
16 foreign affairs advisor to President Martic in July of 1995, June and
17 July of 1995.
18 A. He was the minister of foreign affairs in the government of the
20 Q. And his office was in Belgrade; correct?
21 A. He had an office in Knin as well. And he had an office as part
22 of the RSK bureau in Belgrade. I don't know if he had any other offices.
23 Q. You'd testified yesterday that a man named Bosko Drazic was the
24 head of the Benkovac Police Department during a certain period. Isn't it
25 correct that he later became the chief of the special units of the
1 RSK MUP?
2 A. I am not sure if he was there for the entire RSK in that period.
3 I know that the last year he spent in the Golubic training centre. He
4 was one of the lecturers there.
5 Q. Do you know whether he ever had the title or job function as
6 chief of special units?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid that the
9 description of the place where the person worked wasn't accurately
10 recorded, and what the person did there, if that could be repeated.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your description of the
12 place where Mr. Drazic was working, and --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He worked as a lecturer at the
14 school of -- at the police force school in the place called Golubic near
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, does that clarify the issue?
17 Then I have -- Mr. Farr, could you please have a look at the
18 transcript and compare page 71, upon a joint arrival and the name
19 mentioned there, and compare that with your question in page 72, the
20 first or the second line.
21 You see the point?
22 MR. FARR: I do see. You're referring to page 71, line 23
23 versus --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then the --
25 MR. FARR: [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... answer given in 24 and
2 then your question in second line of page 72. That is confusing.
3 MR. FARR: Yes. Could we return into private session,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 We return into private session.
7 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No problem.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Farr.
11 MR. FARR:
12 Q. Sir, going back to my question about Bosko Drazic. Did you ever
13 know him to have the title or job function "chief the special units of
14 the RSK" or "chief of special units"? Was that ever his job function or
15 title, as far as you know?
16 A. It is a policeman who was a member of the special forces of the
17 MUP of the Republic of -- of the Socialist Republic of Croatia up until
18 1991. It is quite possible that once the chief of the SUP in Benkovac
19 was replaced he held the position that you mentioned. But I can't
20 remember, really, because in -- I wasn't in Knin in that period of time.
21 It has to do with public security affairs, so I can't really remember if
22 he held that post. But he was working for the MUP until the end, until
24 Q. And you also knew a man named Goran Opacic, who was a colleague
25 of yours at the Benkovac Police Station; correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. You also testified either -- well, you testified at some point
3 about a group called the Serbian National Council which later became the
4 Serbian Defence Council. It's correct that Milan Martic was a member of
5 this council, isn't it?
6 A. Yes, he was.
7 Q. And what about Milan Babic?
8 A. He was the president -- or the chairman of the Serbian National
9 Council; that's what I mean.
10 Q. And what about Milenko Zelenbaba, who was the Knin SJB chief?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And, sir, just so the record is clear: It's correct that he was
13 also a member of the Serbian National Council; do you agree?
14 A. I apologise, I didn't understand your question right away. I
15 don't know if he was a member of the Serbian National Council. Though it
16 is possible ex officio that he would have been. He had Milan Martic as a
17 member there, who was at the head of the Knin SUP at the time, so I don't
18 know if Zelenbaba was there with him.
19 Q. Do you know when the Serbian National Council became the Serbian
20 Defence Council?
21 A. I think it was between 1990 and 1991. I don't know which period
23 MR. FARR: Your Honour, I'd be moving to a new topic at this
24 point. I can either begin it briefly ...
25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we already adjourn for the day so that I
1 have sufficient time to deal with procedural matters.
2 Mr. Draca, while it may have been clear to you already earlier
3 that we would not be able to conclude your testimony this week because
4 we're not sitting on Friday, which means that we'll resume next week, and
5 that will be on the 7th of February at 9.00 in the morning.
6 I again instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in
7 any other way with whomever about your testimony, whether this week
8 already given or still to be given next week, and we'd like to see you
9 back next Tuesday at 9.00 in the morning in this same courtroom.
10 Could I invite you to follow the usher.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE ORIE: What I'd like to do is to deliver two oral decisions
13 and then briefly scheduling for the upcoming weeks.
14 And I start with a Prosecution request to tender excerpts of the
15 accused's suspect interviews. So I will deliver the Chamber's decision
16 on the -- this request, that is, the Prosecution's request to tender
17 excerpts of both of the accused's suspect interviews.
18 On the 15th of November, 2011, the Prosecution orally bar tabled
19 two excerpts of the accused's suspect interviews relating to the
20 UN hostages crisis. The Defence objected to this request.
21 On the 25th of November, 2011, the Prosecution amended its
22 request through its first submissions, requesting the excerpts' admission
23 specifically as rebuttal evidence.
24 On the 1st of December, 2011, through an informal communication,
25 the Simatovic Defence notified the parties and the Trial Chamber that it
1 would not make any further submissions on this matter.
2 On the 2nd of December, the Stanisic Defence responded to the
3 Prosecution's submission, opposing admission of the excerpts.
4 On the 9th of December, 2011, the Prosecution requested leave to
5 reply to the Stanisic response, annexing its reply to the filing.
6 The Chamber granted the Prosecution leave to rely on the
7 13th of December, 2011, and this was done through an informal
9 The Prosecution submits that the interview excerpts are proper
10 rebuttal evidence arising directly out of Defence evidence which could
11 not have been reasonably anticipated. According to the Prosecution, the
12 excerpts are relevant to counter the Stanisic Defence's case that
13 Stanisic acted for humanitarian reasons during the UN hostages crisis,
14 thereby seemingly rebutting the Prosecution's theory of Stanisic's
15 mens rea in relation to the crimes charged in the indictment.
16 The Stanisic Defence opposes the admission of the excerpts,
17 arguing that it violates the standard sequencing order of presenting
18 evidence pursuant to Rule 85(A) of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and
19 Evidence, herein after to be referred to as "Rules." Moreover, it argues
20 that the proffered evidence does not meet the high rebuttal threshold.
21 According to Rule 85(A) of the Rules, rebuttal evidence may be
22 presented after the presentation of the Defence case, unless otherwise
23 directed by the Chamber, in the interests of justice.
24 The Appeals Chamber has held that rebuttal evidence must relate
25 to a significant issue arising directly out of Defence evidence which
1 could not reasonably have been anticipated. This comes from the
2 Delalic et al. Judgement of the 20th of February, 2001.
3 The Chamber notes that the presentation of rebuttal evidence at
4 this stage of the proceedings varies from the general sequence of the
5 presentation of evidence as provided in Rule 85(A) of the Rules. In the
6 present case, the proposed rebuttal evidence consists of 13 pages of
7 documentary evidence. Further, the excerpts the Prosecution seeks to
8 tender are closely connected to the testimony of Witness Helgers and
9 other evidence received by the Chamber.
10 Also, the Chamber considers that early notice or admission of
11 proffered rebuttal evidence does not prejudice the Defence. The earlier
12 rebuttal evidence can be submitted to contextualise or counter Defence
13 evidence, the more stream-lined and focussed will the proceedings be.
14 While the Chamber notes that the proffered evidence could more
15 appropriately have been tendered during the cross-examination of a
16 Defence witness - and I refer the parties to the Chamber's guidance on
17 such tendering issued on the 26th of August of 2011 - under the present
18 circumstances, the Chamber finds it to be in the interests of justice to
19 consider the proffered evidence submission at this stage of the
21 The Chamber considers that the proffered evidence relates to the
22 issue of the Accused Stanisic's behaviour during the indictment period.
23 The Chamber finds that this is a significant issue for the purpose of
24 admission as rebuttal evidence.
25 However, the Chamber considers that the Stanisic's Defence
1 pre-trial brief devotes several paragraphs on the role of the accused
2 with respect to the release of the UN hostages. In the brief, the
3 Stanisic Defence noted the - and I quote - "undisputed fact that through
4 the direct participation of the accused, the lives of more than
5 300 UN peace keepers and the lives of two French pilots were saved during
6 the course of the Balkan crisis in 1995."
7 The Stanisic Defence then continues to argue that the accused's
8 role in the release of these hostages rebuts the mens rea element
9 required to establish criminal responsibility in the sense that the
10 accused's alleged intention to participate in and further the common
11 criminal purpose of a group and to contribute to the alleged joint
12 criminal enterprise is absent.
13 Accordingly, the Prosecution could have reasonably anticipated
14 that the Defence would use this argument and present evidence on this
15 matter in relation to challenging the accused's mens rea.
16 And for the foregoing reasons the Chamber denies the admission of
17 the excerpts of the suspect interviews as rebuttal evidence.
18 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
19 The next decision I would like to deliver on behalf of the
20 Chamber is a decision in which the Chamber addresses three requests by
21 the Republic of Serbia for protective measures, filed on the 9th and the
22 16th of January and the 1st of February, 2012.
23 The Chamber will first address Serbia's requests of the
24 9th of January, 2012.
25 On the 11th of November, 2011, the Chamber granted protective
1 measures pursuant to Rule 54 bis of the Rules in relation to two
2 witnesses' testimonies and Exhibits P971 through P974. The Chamber
3 granted redactions of information identifying three categories of persons
4 mentioned in Exhibits P972 and P973, namely, the two witnesses in
5 question, the sources of a government commission, and active BIA
6 operatives. The Chamber then invited Serbia to file a list of necessary
7 redactions to these exhibits.
8 On the 9th of January, 2012, Serbia submitted a filing as per the
9 Chamber's decision. In the filing, Serbia listed information identifying
10 commission sources and active BIA operatives and requested that this
11 information be redacted.
12 As the Chamber's 11th of November, 2011, decision already granted
13 these redactions, the Chamber now declares Serbia's request of the
14 9th of January of 2012 moot.
15 The Chamber will now address Serbia's filing of the
16 16th of January, 2012.
17 Serbia requested, in relation to 180 documents provided to the
18 Stanisic Defence, firstly, that if they are used in court, they be used
19 in provisional closed session; and, secondly, that if they are tendered
20 for admission into evidence, that they are placed provisionally under
21 seal. Upon notification, Serbia would then provide a reasoned request
22 for protective measures.
23 On the 30th of January, 2012, the Prosecution responded that it
24 did not oppose Serbia's request.
25 As per ongoing practice in this case, the Chamber expects the
1 parties to request provisional private session when using any documents
2 in court which are subject to a pending request for protective measures,
3 and to request, when tendering such documents, that they are placed
4 provisionally under seal. The Chamber instructs the parties to continue
5 to apply this approach, including with regard to the 180 documents listed
6 in Serbia's filing of the 16th of January, 2012. The Chamber further
7 instructs the parties to notify Serbia in case of the in-court use or
8 tendering of any of these documents so that Serbia can file reasoned
9 requests for protective measures.
10 The Prosecution has made several practical proposals with regard
11 to any such reasoned requests to be filed by Serbia. The Chamber
12 approves of arrangements which improve the clarity of such requests and
13 make them simpler to process and review. The Chamber encourages the
14 parties to liaise with Serbia in this respect.
15 The Chamber will now address Serbia's filing of the
16 1st of February, 2012.
17 In this filing, Serbia requested the same remedy as it requested
18 in its 16th of January, 2012, filing but in respect of a further
19 17 documents provided to the Stanisic Defence.
20 I'm now addressing the parties. Having heard the Chamber's
21 decision on the request of the 16th of January, 2012, do the parties have
22 any additional submissions to make in request of the 1st of February,
23 2012, request specifically?
24 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, if I could consider that and get back
25 to you.
1 MR. JORDASH: May we do the same, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And ...
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] We would also like to do the same,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll further hear from the parties in relation
6 to the 1st of February, 2012, request, whether there are any specific
7 additional submissions to be made.
8 And, therefore, this concludes the Chamber's decision on Serbia's
9 requests of the 9th and the 16th of January, and not yet of the
10 1st of February, 2012. And the Chamber instructs the Registry to inform
11 the Republic of Serbia of this decision.
12 Then, very briefly, last item on my agenda. From the information
13 provided by the Simatovic Defence, the following witnesses are scheduled
14 to testify in court in February, and that is DFS-011, DFS-003, DFS-012,
15 and DFS-004.
16 With regard to the Stanisic Defence, the Chamber notes from an
17 informal communication yesterday, that it's highly unlikely that
18 Witness DST-071 will come to The Hague in time to testify next week. The
19 Chamber requests the Simatovic and Stanisic Defence to provide
20 information about the scheduling of witnesses for the upcoming weeks,
21 including the approximate dates the witnesses are expected to testify in
23 I don't know whether you have discussed the matter already,
24 Mr. Petrovic, where you can provide, to start with, for next week whether
25 you have a witness available.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from what I know at
2 this time, is that DFS-011 should arrive here on Sunday and testify once
3 the current witness completes his testimony. This is what I know. This
4 is what has been planned and agreed.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you perhaps sit together with the
6 Stanisic Defence also to discuss how to -- how to schedule your witnesses
7 in view of the fact that Witness DST-071, of course --
8 MR. PETROVIC: [No Interpretation]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. If I
11 may just say that -- and this is something that our Defence has stated a
12 number of times as well, and that is that we would like that all
13 witnesses of Mr. Stanisic, including this one, complete their testimony
14 as soon as possible. So, if it's possible for the witness that we are
15 talking about, DST-071, if it's possible for him technically to come and
16 begin his testimony after the current witness completes his, that would
17 be good for us. We would prefer that situation. But, of course, that is
18 not in our hands.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And then we'll still have to wait for Witness Brown
20 as well, who is also to be scheduled.
21 MR. JORDASH: Yes, that's right.
22 We are filing a motion, I think today, concerning the issue of
23 the way in which Mr. Brown will be able to use the originals of the
24 diaries, whether that's in court or in a clean room or at the forensic
25 lab, and Mr. Brown's position is that he needs Your Honours to see the
1 originals and to see him point to the originals to be able to properly
2 explain his -- his report. So we're filing a motion that may affect the
3 timing of his evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will consider such a submission.
5 Could, at least, apart from these technical aspects of who will
6 wear gloves and where we are looking at matters or whether we are looking
7 at copies or originals, could the parties sit together and see whether
8 they could work out a scheme, a schedule, for the weeks to come?
9 MR. JORDASH: Absolutely.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, I take it that your silence is to be
11 understood as --
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour. Of
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Then we adjourn. And we resume on Tuesday, the 7th of February,
16 at 9.00 in the morning, in this same courtroom, II.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of
19 February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.