Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16925

 1                           Tuesday, 7 February 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             I'd like to deal with a few procedural matters, not all that I

12     have on my list, but at least a number.

13             And for the first one, I'd like to go into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

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18   (redacted)

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Page 16926

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 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             On the 26th of January, the Chamber requested that the Stanisic

15     and Simatovic Defences provide information about the scheduling of

16     witnesses for the upcoming weeks, including the approximate dates the

17     witnesses are expected to testify in court, particularly in light of last

18     week's e-mail correspondence relating to Witness DST-071.

19             Could the Chamber receive an update from the Stanisic and

20     Simatovic Defence.

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22             MR. JORDASH:  I'm afraid we're not that much further on in terms

23     of certainty.  DST-071 is waiting for the service of the subpoena.  We

24     expect that that will be done this week, and we've asked WVS tentatively

25     to be prepared to book him on a flight on Sunday for proofing on Monday,


Page 16927

 1     to start on Tuesday.  That obviously depends upon the subpoena being

 2     served and depends upon the witness saying that he is prepared to follow

 3     that course.

 4             We expect he will, providing that WVS can arrange for him and his

 5     wife - he is insisting that his wife comes with him.  I think she has

 6     accompanied him previously when he has attended court - and he is

 7     determined that she does, too, on this occasion.  So it's in the hands of

 8     the courts in -- in the region --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there an alternative scenario?

10             MR. JORDASH:  I think the alternative scenario is a Simatovic

11     witness.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Has that been prepared?

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, our next witness is

14     already here, DFS-011.  He's in The Hague or is in The Hague.  And we had

15     some indication that DST-071 should testify next week, so it would mean a

16     lot to us to have a clear situation as soon as possible regarding that

17     witness so that, if that is so, we can take the adequate measures.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic, if he comes, then he comes.  If

19     he doesn't come, then he doesn't come.  I mean, my question, of course,

20     is:  What happens if, for one reason or another, he will not come, have

21     you prepared a scenario.  Of course, not the witness who is already here

22     but a witness who could then replace DST-071 if he doesn't arrive.  That

23     is the question.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a witness,

25     but it's very hard to tell a witness, "Perhaps you will go and perhaps

Page 16928

 1     you will not."  There is a witness.  We have a list of witnesses and they

 2     are coming, but for us it is very difficult to tell somebody that they

 3     will be travelling and perhaps they will not be.  So this understand

 4     certainty as to whether DST-071 will come or not is a bit difficult.  If

 5     we're told that is he not coming, then we can resolve the problem.  But

 6     like this, it's very difficult to know about it.  So we need to be told

 7     this today.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, that was my question.  Is there a

 9     witness who has been requested to remain standby in case Witness DST-071

10     would not come.  And, of course, the sooner we know, the better it is so

11     as to end any uncertainty.

12             That is -- but that's for the next two or three witnesses.  I

13     invite the parties to -- to further work on the programme after that.

14             Then following item.  On the 6th of February, 2012, in relation

15     to a translation issue regarding P1289, the Chamber instructed the

16     Prosecution in an informal communication to have the translation reviewed

17     and to upload the revised version for the purpose of replacing the

18     present version in e-court; of course, if there's any reason to do so.

19     And that instruction is hereby put on the record.

20             Then the last item.  The Chamber has decided on the

21     10th of January, 2012, to leave the issue of outstanding English

22     translations of source documents of Witness Milosevic's proposed expert

23     report in the parties' hands.

24             On the 13th of January, the Chamber requested the parties,

25     through an informal communication, to notify the Chamber once the issue

Page 16929

 1     had been resolved.  And the Chamber wonders whether there are any

 2     updates.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have the date

 4     in front of me right now, but I can find it.  The report has been

 5     provided with all the 65 ter numbers marked and indicated to the parties,

 6     and the all the documents except for three or four have been given for

 7     translation.  And as soon a document is translated, it's uploaded, but

 8     the document numbers and their markings are available to the parties,

 9     both from the Prosecution and my colleagues from the Stanisic Defence.

10             I think a copy was also addressed to the Trial Chamber's legal

11     officer.  But we did not receive any response or any requests or comments

12     by any of the parties.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             Ms. Marcus.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             We were informed by the Simatovic Defence that some of the

17     translations were still missing and some of the 65 ter numbers were also

18     still missing.  We are in the process of compiling, actually, the full

19     list of everything that is missing and I anticipate having that hopefully

20     today, latest by tomorrow.  I will be sending that in an e-mail.  It

21     seems to us that there are actually quite a number of documents that are

22     either not footnoted at all or where the numbers are missing or the

23     translations are missing.  But we'll be -- rather than quoting numbers

24     now, I would like to give the accurate complete picture of that, which I

25     will do in the near future.

Page 16930

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course the Chamber would like to know what

 2     the dimensions of the problem are.

 3             Could we hear then from you by tomorrow?

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  And could I just add, with

 5     respect to the military report, we still don't have an English

 6     translation.  And this is now -- I just have to say that we had estimated

 7     approximately three months that we would need to be able to process that

 8     report accurately and respond.  That was the amount of time that we said

 9     in December, in fact.  And so as time goes on, that gets to be quite a

10     matter of great concern.  I understand that it is in translation but it

11     is now February, and we're quite concerned about that, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, after how many years is it now that

13     these reports are still not -- they are not translated.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague is

15     dealing with that, Mr. Bakrac, and we will inform you about this tomorrow

16     in detail regarding the status of the military expert's report, if you

17     permit us.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll hear from you tomorrow.

19             Then, could the witness be brought into the courtroom.  And

20     meanwhile -- yes, Mr. Jordash.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just raise, very, very briefly, the

22     situation concerning Mr. Stanisic's health.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours will recall last week the issue

25     concerning where his treatment for his physical condition might be

Page 16931

 1     heading.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It was on Thursday that a phone call would be

 3     made.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  And I think the phone call was productive,

 5     and it looks as though a -- an option has been found, which doesn't, as

 6     yet, involve surgery, and that option is a third type of medicine or a

 7     third type of therapy which Mr. Stanisic is to start next week in the

 8     Bronovo hospital.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's a medication rather than --

10             MR. JORDASH:  Rather than surgery --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- surgery.  Yes.

12             MR. JORDASH:  -- in the Cleveland hospital, which was one of the

13     things being suggested last week, I think.

14             So to that extent, there's been some productive movement, and I

15     think all concerned are somewhat relieved that there is a third option,

16     and that third option, as I've said, will start next week.

17             And I think Dr. van Geenen will file a report - this is what

18     Mr. Stanisic has been told - dealing with the commencement of this new

19     therapy, and also the details of that telephone conference which included

20     Mr. Stanisic's doctor, Dr. Tarabar.

21             That's that.  That's the good news.

22             The bad news from our perspective is that after making several

23     requests, at least four requests of the Registry, for all Mr. Stanisic's

24     medical records relating to his treating doctors, we have learnt that his

25     treating doctor, Dr. Petrovic, his psychiatrist, actually has written

Page 16932

 1     reports and now the Registry have agreed that we can actually have them.

 2     That's after providing us reports without those reports contained

 3     therein.

 4             The Registry have said that it will take some time to disclose

 5     these reports --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  "That's providing us reports without

 7     those reports contained therein."

 8             MR. JORDASH:  I can clarify that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.

10             MR. JORDASH:  We've made, I think, four requests now for

11     Mr. Stanisic's treating doctors' reports.  On each occasion we have been

12     provided with reports and none of those reports have contained

13     Dr. Petrovic's reports --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You say in the reports that were provided,

15     those reports were not present.

16             MR. JORDASH:  No.  We eventually made a specific request for

17     Dr. Petrovic's report and we've been told, one, they do exist, but, two,

18     they exist in a form alongside other detainees' medical records and it

19     will take some time - so the Registry say - to edit those other reports

20     from the consolidated report.

21             In the meantime, the Registry asked Dr. Petrovic to provide a

22     summary report.  We don't know as yet whether it's a summary of the last

23     three years.  We don't know whether it's a summary of the last two weeks.

24     We just don't know.  What we do know is that that summary report notes

25     that Mr. Stanisic's therapy, psychotherapy, is insufficient.  That's as

Page 16933

 1     much as we know as yet.  Whether that again relates to the last

 2     three years or whether it relates to the present situation, we just don't

 3     know.  We are trying to get answers to that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  And I just raise that now because, obviously, if

 6     his psychotherapy is insufficient, this may well have a short- or mid- or

 7     long-term effect on his ability to participate in the trial.  That's why

 8     I raise that now.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That might need some additional attention

10     anyhow because the Chamber noticed that reports by Dr. de Man are not

11     always fully consistent with the reports, that there seems to be some

12     divergence in views, and that that perhaps may have to be resolved as

13     well.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  And perhaps what I will do in

15     the -- or what we will do is ask Your Honours in the next report by

16     Dr. de Man to comment specifically on the sufficiency of Mr. Stanisic's

17     treatment.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, but we will further look at that.  The Chamber

19     is happy to hear also that a -- a new avenue seems to be available for

20     the treatment of the gastroenterology.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Don't look at me, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, no, no.  I meant the problems in the field

23     of gastroenterology.  Because, of course, the Chamber has considered that

24     a surgery abroad would have some legal implications as well as far as

25     detention or release, or whatever you call it, are concerned and we can


Page 16934

 1     put that at least for the time being aside.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Not that that's our main concern, to put our

 4     problems aside, but, of course, the primary concern is a proper treatment

 5     of Mr. Stanisic but all the rest could cause additional problems which

 6     we'd rather be without.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be brought into the

 9     courtroom.

10             Meanwhile, I'll put a few matters on the record.

11             The first one is that on the 2nd of February, by omission, a

12     number D683 has been assigned to document 1D2090.  But it should have

13     been document 1D2096, tendered by the Stanisic Defence, and therefore,

14     document 1D2090 is assigned a number, D683.  And the document was already

15     admitted as an exhibit.

16             On the 31st of January, the OTP has tendered as video, 2D1001,

17     which was admitted and assigned number P3073.  The Registry was informed

18     that the number of the tendered video should be 2D1001.1, and not 2D1001,

19     and, therefore, document 2D1001 should have been assigned number P3073.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Draca.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to remind you again that you're still bound

24     by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

25     testimony, and Mr. Farr will now continue his cross-examination.


Page 16935

 1             Mr. Farr.

 2                           WITNESS:  ACO DRACA [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Farr: [Continued]

 5        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Draca.  Can you hear me?

 6        A.   Good morning.  I can hear you, yes.

 7        Q.   I'd like to start by asking you something that you said about the

 8     meeting the day before the attack on Skabrnja.  And this is at transcript

 9     pages 16736 and 16737.  You said:

10             "There were no special secrets there.  Representatives of the war

11     staff in Benkovac, there was the briefing of the 180th Brigade.  We had

12     the chief of the TO staff, the president of the municipality, the

13     president of the Executive Board, i.e., government, and I as the head of

14     state security.  When Mladic said that this was unacceptable and that

15     they needed some shaking up, the president of the Benkovac government

16     suggested they should not opt for combat but, rather, that they should

17     make a show of force with tanks and everything else and try through

18     peaceful means to have the various check-points around Skabrnja removed?"

19             Based on this, it sounds like this was a general discussion.

20     Mladic presented the problem and then the other people present, like the

21     president of the Benkovac government, made and discussed suggestions

22     until a final course of action was settled on.

23             Is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, that is correct.  We didn't even know that he would be there

25     that day.  Probably it was just -- he happened to be there in order to

Page 16936

 1     plan his daily activities.  I assume that they had some sort of strategic

 2     meeting that was separate, relating to the status of the military

 3     situation on the ground.

 4        Q.   I apologise for interrupting you, sir.  But I do have a lot of

 5     material to get through so I'd ask you to keep your answers as brief as

 6     possible if that's okay.

 7             One thing I do want to clarify from that answer, however, you

 8     said, "We didn't even know that he would be there."

 9             Who is "he"?

10        A.   No.  We didn't know that he was going to be there during the

11     briefing.

12        Q.   And when you say "he," whom are you referring to?

13        A.   Well, the man we've been discussing, Colonel Mladic.

14        Q.   Can you give us the names and titles of the representatives of

15     the Benkovac War Staff that attended that meeting?

16        A.   The president of the municipality, Mato Bogunovic; chief of the

17     SUP, Bosko Drazic; TO commander, Zoran Lakic; and myself, as well as the

18     president of the Executive Board whose name I cannot recall now.

19        Q.   And I think that you said that these kind of briefings or

20     meetings took place approximately once a week; is that correct?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And you also indicated that they lasted at least until the time

23     that Arkan arrived in 1993; is that correct?

24        A.   No, that's not what I said.  They lasted during 1991.  And I was

25     present until the state security was dissolved.  And it was on the

Page 16937

 1     22nd of January, 1992, that the JNA left Benkovac.  So it may have been

 2     an error in interpretation.

 3        Q.   Did some kind of weekly military briefings resume at some point,

 4     that you participated in?

 5        A.   I did most of the time.  But if the brigade commander or his

 6     deputies were away, it would be skipped.

 7        Q.   And did those weekly military briefings continue more or less

 8     until the end of the war?

 9        A.   Well, I suppose that they did.  I can't be sure.  It was until

10     November of 1991 that I attended these meetings.  But not thereafter.

11        Q.   So is it your evidence that you didn't attend those meetings when

12     you became either the deputy chief or chief of the RSK DB?

13        A.   Not in Benkovac, no.

14        Q.   Not even during the period between August of 1992 and

15     June of 1993, when you were simultaneously the deputy chief of the

16     service and the head of the Benkovac DB?

17        A.   Well, let's say that it happened once every month.  And mostly in

18     Knin, not in Benkovac.

19             The war-time staff - that's to say, the municipal authorities - I

20     suppose that they did hold them, but I don't know how often.

21        Q.   Later in your testimony you were asked how you knew which units

22     participated in the attack on Skabrnja.  And you said the following, at

23     transcript page 16742:

24             "The chief of state security, as the chief of security for that

25     district, I took part in most of the meetings and at the command of the

Page 16938

 1     180th Brigade, in the TO, in the SUP, in the municipality of Benkovac

 2     War Presidency."

 3             Later in your testimony, you told us that as the chief of the

 4     RSK DB, you participated in meetings of the RSK Supreme Defence Council

 5     as well as the prime minister's briefings on security matters.

 6             Is it fair to say that as a member of the Krajina DB, you

 7     co-ordinated and co-operated with all relevant civilian and military

 8     authorities regarding military matters during the war?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, I

11     apologise for interrupting.

12             Can the witness receive full B/C/S interpretation of what my

13     learned friend put to him?  Because some of the elements of what he asked

14     him were not heard in the B/C/S, and I do believe them important for the

15     answer.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I would suggest that you repeat them all and

17     seek to verify whether the answer would be the same.

18             MR. FARR:  I can do it -- was it just the question or was it the

19     quotes as well?

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The question only would be enough.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Witness, the question will be repeated because

22     it might not have been translated in full.  So please carefully listen to

23     the question again and then perhaps you could tell us whether the new

24     formulation of the question causes you to answer the question in a

25     different way.

Page 16939

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. FARR:

 3        Q.   Sir, the question I asked you was the following:  Is it fair to

 4     say that as a member of the Krajina DB, you co-ordinated and co-operated

 5     with all relevant civilian and military authorities regarding military

 6     matters during the war?

 7        A.   If you mean military matters, no.  Those were strategic military

 8     matters that were only dealt by the commands.

 9             We co-ordinated work related to security issues where those

10     overlapped with the issues within the competence of the army.

11        Q.   Jumping ahead a little, during your testimony last Wednesday, you

12     were discussing the Croatian army offensive of January 1993, and, in

13     particular, about the need for more troops.  The transcript, at

14     page 16786 -- I'm going to read you a quote and I want to check with you

15     to see whether it recorded your answer correctly.

16             The quote, which is your answer, is this:

17             "At that point, as deputy chief of the department, I attended a

18     number of government meetings of the Krajina where, based on a plan put

19     together by the government, we were requested to provide assistance as

20     soon as possible, and I, in fact, pleaded with the units or with the

21     Main Staff of the VRS, pleaded with them for assistance, but it never

22     came."

23             Was that answer correctly recorded?  Was it -- were you asking

24     for assistance from the Bosnian Serb army?

25        A.   Not directly.  We did ask for it but always went through the

Page 16940

 1     State Security Service of Republika Srpska.

 2             We asked them to persuade their colleagues from the army to send

 3     assistance to us.

 4        Q.   Why did this contact go through the State Security Service of the

 5     RSK and the State Security Service of the RS, rather than from the SVK to

 6     the VRS, or from President Martic to Karadzic or Krajisnik?

 7        A.   If you remember, I said that, at the time, those were

 8     UN protected areas in Krajina, which were not entitled to having an army.

 9     However, there followed a period of confusion where everybody was trying

10     to pull the various strings in the services that they had co-operated

11     with.  So probably Martic asked of Karadzic and commanders who had their

12     colleagues from the former army would -- would also be contacting them on

13     the same issues, and this is how it would happen.

14        Q.   But why was the state security involved?

15        A.   As I said, as was the case with all the other security

16     institutions, we, too, were charged with security in the Republic of

17     Serbian Krajina.  Even though we didn't have other own military

18     formations, we could use our good co-operation and influence with the

19     colleagues in Republika Srpska to secure a number of units.

20     Unfortunately, we failed in that effort.

21        Q.   You said you didn't have your own military formations.  To your

22     knowledge, was the RSK DB ever involved in efforts to obtain weapons for

23     the SVK or for other armed forces in the Krajina?

24        A.   No.  I don't know about that.  Even the official weapons we had

25     had arrived -- were ordered and arrived from the RSK Ministry of the


Page 16941

 1     Interior.

 2        Q.   And what about the Serbian DB?  To your knowledge, was the DB of

 3     the Republic of Serbia ever involved in attempts to obtain weapons for

 4     the SVK or other armed forces in the Krajina?

 5        A.   I don't know anything about that.

 6        Q.   Sir, I'd now like to summarise some of your evidence about your

 7     relationship with Milan Martic and I'd ask you to tell me if I get

 8     anything wrong.

 9             You said you met with Martic when the SAO Krajina DB was being

10     formed.  You met with Martic around the time that Captain Dragan was

11     setting up the training centre at Golubic.  You met with him after the

12     massacre at Bruska.  You met with him when the RSK DB was being reformed

13     in late 1992.  You went with him to see Fikret Abdic on two occasions,

14     and Martic was the one who informed you about the creation of the

15     Pauk Command.

16             Is all of that correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   So based on that, is it fair to say that you had close

19     professional co-operation with Mr. Martic?

20        A.   Precisely so.

21             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, could we move into private session

22     briefly, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 16942

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19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             MR. FARR:

24        Q.   Sir, on Thursday, you were asked a number of questions about the

25     facilities and people at Erdut, as well as some units that may have been


Page 16943

 1     stationed there.

 2             As far as you know, did any RSK official ever indicate, either to

 3     you or to anyone else, that the DB of Serbia controlled an armed group at

 4     Erdut?

 5        A.   No, nobody ever told me anything like that.  This was under the

 6     control of the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina

 7     formally and legally speaking, though I know that Arkan's units were in

 8     there.  And the education centre was within the competence of the

 9     Ministry of Defence and Ministry of the Interior of the RSK.

10        Q.   And, sir, you've told us that nobody ever told you anything like

11     that.  But did you ever hear about an RSK official saying to someone else

12     that the Serbian DB controlled an armed group at Erdut?

13        A.   No.  I can say that, as far as I know, the DB of Serbia had no

14     influence over the centre.  At least not directly so.  Whether they had

15     any agents there, I cannot possibly know.

16        Q.   And, again, to your knowledge, did any official of the RSK

17     government ever state or claim that Rade Kostic was a member of the

18     state security department of Serbia?

19        A.   Many claimed that the late Rade Kostic was a member of the DB of

20     Serbia but nobody was sure of it.  We weren't present in the field at the

21     time he formally worked for the Ministry of the Interior of the RSK.

22     Whether he carried an ID and had an actual employment with the DB of

23     Serbia is something that I don't know.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

Page 16944

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] A part of witness's answer was not

 2     recorded as to who was present in the field and how far.  What we have in

 3     the transcript does not reflect what the witness said.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Having heard the comment of Mr. Petrovic, could you

 5     please repeat your answer in respect of who was present in the field and

 6     how far -- I have some difficulties in ...

 7             Could you please repeat that portion of the answer.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was mentioning Erdut,

 9     perhaps I misspoke when I said "we were not present in the field."  I

10     meant the Ministry of the Interior or, rather, state security.

11             You have to understand that Eastern Slavonia and Baranja are

12     physically separated and some 6- to 700 kilometres away from Knin.  You

13     had to go through Bosnia-Herzegovina and partly through Serbia to reach

14     there.  And it was difficult for us to go out into the field.  I think

15     that it was in late 1992 that I went there for the first time.  We

16     weren't physically present there.  There were deputy and assistant

17     defence ministers up there who would inform us of the goings on through

18     dispatches and by phone.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you one additional question in relation

20     to one of your previous answers.

21             You said:  "Many claimed that the late Rade Kostic was a member

22     of the DB of Serbia but nobody was sure of it."

23             Could you give us some more details about who claimed that

24     Rade Kostic was, and why that person wasn't certain, and when you learned

25     about that claim.

Page 16945

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was simply talked of by

 2     people in general and in the police circles.  But I have to tell you that

 3     the story went about about me being a member of the DB of Serbia.  I have

 4     to tell you that nobody told me that he had been working for the DB of

 5     Serbia.  At least I wasn't aware of it.  I don't know it, still, to this

 6     day.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But -- but when did you learn about those

 8     claims?  Who told you about that story going around?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, truthfully, it's very

10     difficult 20 years on to know who exactly it was who was saying.  But it

11     was in the grape-vine.  The story was talked about mostly in the police

12     circles.

13             Let me stress that the same sort of stories circulated in respect

14     of most of the officers working for state security.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Most of what officers?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of the Ministry of the Interior.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that was already claimed at the time?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know how it is.  Serbia

19     is a large country compared to us.  Some people perhaps found it

20     suitable.  Some may have started the stories themselves.  But as for

21     Rade Kostic, I cannot say that I knew for sure that he was a worker

22     working permanently for the DB of Serbia.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Where you earlier said, when you were asked about

24     the Serbian DB, whether they controlled an armed group at Erdut, your

25     answer was:

Page 16946

 1             "No.  I can say that -- I can say that, as far as I know, the DB

 2     of Serbia had no influence over the centre.  At least not directly so.

 3     Whether they had any agents there, I cannot possibly know."

 4             Do I now understand that the full answer to that question would

 5     have been:  Whether they had any agents there, I cannot possibly know,

 6     but rumours went around that some of the officers, including Kostic, were

 7     members of the DB of Serbia?

 8             It's not -- it's not knowledge about Kostic and other officers

 9     being employed by the DB of Serbia, but you were aware of rumours which

10     claimed that they were.

11             Is that correctly understood?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  As rumours.  That's right.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you ever contradict -- you said it was

14     even said about you.  Did you ever contradict that to anyone?  Did you

15     ever make a public statement, "I am not in whatever way related to the

16     Serbian DB"?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, more than once.  Especially if

18     the question came from somebody who was close to me or from the media.

19     Then I would adamantly deny it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you ever try to find out what was true in

21     those rumours and what was not true?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't try to do so.  I said

23     that there were such rumours going around for so many people, including

24     the army.  It was pointless to try to check if it was true, to either

25     confirm or deny it.

Page 16947

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

 3             MR. FARR:

 4        Q.   Sir, I'd like to just briefly follow up on one of Judge Orie's

 5     questions.

 6             He said:  Can you give us some more details about who claimed

 7     that Rade Kostic was and why that person wasn't certain and when you

 8     learned about the claim.

 9             Your answer was:

10             "Well, it was simply talked of by people in general and in the

11     police circles."

12             I want to make sure I understand your evidence.  Is it your

13     evidence that you can't recall any person in particular who mentioned

14     that?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   Sir, are you aware that on the 20th of April of 1991, a decision

17     was published in the SAO Krajina gazette that purported to join the

18     territory of the SAO Krajina to the territory of the Republic of Serbia?

19     Just are you aware of that?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] There were difficulties in

22     interpretation, but it's been sorted out.

23             Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             Could you please answer the question, whether you were aware of

Page 16948

 1     the decision which was published in the SAO Krajina gazette.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It was widely published by

 3     all the media.

 4             MR. FARR:

 5        Q.   And as an official of the SAO Krajina and later of the RSK, did

 6     you personally share that goal of joining the RSK to Serbia?

 7        A.   At that point in time, I was not an official yet.  Apparently the

 8     Assembly in Serbia, in Belgrade, rejected it, so it seemed moot for us

 9     down there to be entertaining the idea at all.

10        Q.   During the time that you were the head of the RSK DB, was there

11     ever any plan or proposal to join the RSK DB to the DB of Serbia?

12        A.   No, there was never such a plan.  I absolutely assert that.

13             MR. FARR:  Could we please have 65 ter 6366 on the screen.

14        Q.   Sir, this document is the work report of the RDB of the RSK MUP

15     for 1993.  It's dated 25 April 1994 and it's addressed to the minister of

16     the interior and the government of the RSK.

17             If we could now have the middle of page 3 in B/C/S and the middle

18     of page 4 in English.

19             And, sir, for the moment, can you just confirm that that's your

20     signature and your stamp at the bottom of that document?

21        A.   Yes, that is my signature and stamp.

22        Q.   Okay.  Can we now please have the bottom of page 2 in B/C/S and

23     the middle of page 3 in English.

24             And, sir, I'm just going to read a portion of the document to you

25     and ask you to comment on it.

Page 16949

 1             I'm interested in the portion that says:

 2             "In the same period, 52 reports were submitted to the president

 3     of the republic and the government of the RSK, while 64 information

 4     regarding the military issues have been submitted to the Main Staff of

 5     the VRSK ..."

 6             Are you able to tell us why the number of reports submitted to

 7     the Main Staff of the SVK is slightly higher than the number of reports

 8     submitted to the RSK government?

 9        A.   If we're talking about sending them to the government and the

10     president, that often was once a week, an overview.

11             As for the others noted here, these were operative matters, so

12     sometimes there would be two or three dispatches per day, if the

13     situation required that.  In one day.

14        Q.   The document goes on to say:

15             "118 reports, dispatches, memos, Official Notes have been

16     submitted to the 2nd Administration of the Republic of Serbia MUP and

17     28 information to the RDB of the Republika Srpska MUP ..."

18             Dealing first with the 118 reports sent to the 2nd Administration

19     of the Republic of Serbia MUP.  To be more precise, that's actually a

20     reference to the 2nd Administration of the DB of Serbia; correct?

21        A.   Correct.  But this is 118 different reports for the 1st and the

22     3rd Administration.  I don't know why that was not stated here.  But a

23     large part of that was sent to the 2nd Administration, yes.

24        Q.   On Thursday of last week, I asked you whether you sent more

25     reports to your own government or to the 2nd Administration of the DB of

Page 16950

 1     Serbia.  Your answer was:

 2             "We sent an immeasurably larger number of reports to the

 3     government.  When I say 'the government,' I mean the president of the

 4     republic.  We were obliged on a daily basis to make a cross-analysis of

 5     all of the political events and these reports were issued daily.  Then

 6     there were weekly separate reports which were a compilation of all this

 7     information.  We did not have such a voluminous contact with the

 8     2nd Administration."

 9             Sir, this report contradicts that testimony, doesn't it?

10        A.   If you look carefully at this report, it says 52 reports to the

11     president of the republic.  These are the weekly reports.  But the daily

12     reports are not mentioned here, and the president would know that there

13     were 365 of them in a year.

14        Q.   Why wouldn't you --

15        A.   They were even sent on a Sunday.

16        Q.   Why wouldn't you have mentioned the daily reports in this

17     year-end report?

18        A.   I don't know.  I don't know where the -- this document is from.

19     Perhaps it's just been deleted.  Perhaps at that point in time we didn't

20     think it was important to mention that.

21             I think that even for the Main Staff there were more than -- more

22     reports than is stated here, more than these 64.

23        Q.   You've just said:  "Perhaps at that point we didn't think it was

24     important to mention that."

25             Is it your evidence that while you did send more reports to the

Page 16951

 1     president and the government, you sent more important reports to the

 2     2nd Administration of the Serbian DB?

 3             Is that your evidence?

 4        A.   I didn't understand you properly.  How -- how do you explain

 5     that?

 6        Q.   Why wasn't it important to mention the daily reports in this

 7     year-end report?

 8        A.   I would take the daily reports to the president myself,

 9     personally.  Every day between 9.00 and 10.00 in the morning, I had a

10     briefing with him.  If I was on a trip somewhere, then my deputy would

11     take them.  So we probably thought that these analytical reports were

12     more important that were prepared by the analysis department and that was

13     sent to the president by mail on a weekly basis.

14        Q.   You've just said these analytical reports were more important.

15     In other words, the weekly reports were more important.

16             So is it your evidence that, while you may have sent more reports

17     to the government of the RSK, you sent more important reports to the

18     2nd Administration of the Serbian DB than you did to the government of

19     the RSK?

20        A.   What you're trying to tell me is technically impossible.  Why

21     would the 2nd Administration need something that needed to be acted upon

22     urgently?  That would have been better sent to our government.

23             20 years on I cannot really evaluate which reports are more

24     important, the daily or the weekly ones.  Events were following one upon

25     the other.  It was a situation of war.

Page 16952

 1        Q.   Okay.  Sir, I'm just going to tell you the Prosecution position

 2     and ask for your comment and then I'll move on.

 3             It's our position that the large number of documents sent from

 4     the RSK DB to the 2nd Administration of the DB of Serbia shows that the

 5     co-operation between the two services went beyond the normal co-operation

 6     between friendly services.  And, in fact, for practical purposes, the RSK

 7     DB and the DB of Serbia were functioning almost as a single service.

 8     Just if you would like to respond to that.

 9        A.   I still assert that that is not correct.  But I have to add that,

10     unfortunately so.

11             MR. FARR:  Can we now have the middle of page 4 in English and

12     the middle of page 3 in B/C/S.

13        Q.   And, sir, directing your --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Sorry.  Mr. Jordash.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Is it possible to have a break?  I know that this

17     next section might take a little while.  And I'm also wondering whether

18     it might be fair to allow the witness to read the whole report to remind

19     himself of what this report says.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

21             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I wouldn't have any objection to that.

22     We can probably provide a printed copy to ... whom would we provide a

23     printed copy to?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I think to the Registry.  The Registry would then

25     take care that -- the Registrar will take care that it ends up in the

Page 16953

 1     hands of the witness.  And then, I take it, a B/C/S version will be

 2     provided to him.

 3             We'll take a break, and I'd like to briefly - after having

 4     discussed it with my colleagues - to raise a matter with counsel of all

 5     three parties, but primarily Mr. Jordash being involved, on a matter

 6     which was just brought to my attention a minute ago.

 7             So if you would remain standby so that if I would like to hear

 8     information from you, that I could receive that.

 9             We take a break, and we resume at a quarter to 11.00.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 10 .55 a.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't see any witness.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, if you're ready, you may proceed.

17             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   Sir, before the break, we were looking at the 1993 work report of

19     the RSK DB.  Just before we started looking at that document, I asked you

20     a question, and I want to repeat that for you, along with your answer.

21             The question, at page 23 of the transcript, was:

22             "During the time that you were the head of the RSK DB, was there

23     ever any plan or proposal to join the RSK DB to the DB of Serbia?"

24             Your answer was:

25             "No.  There was never such a plan.  I absolutely assert that."

Page 16954

 1             I would now like to read you to the last sentence in the

 2     1993 report of the RSK DB.

 3             It says:

 4             "It might be that due to the problems of the organisational

 5     nature no significant results in the intelligence work have been

 6     achieved.  However, it can be said that the foundation for the serious

 7     work and the final preparations for the annexation to the RDB of the

 8     Republic of Serbia MUP has been created."

 9             Sir, to me, that seems like a complete contradiction.  Can you

10     explain that?

11        A.   I can explain.  I repeat with full responsibility that I never

12     wrote a single document, nor did I receive a document from anyone, nor

13     did I attend any meeting where the possibility of annexing the RDB of the

14     Republic of Serbia to us or, actually the other way around, us to the

15     RDB of Republic of Serbia, was discussed.

16             This sentence of mine and my formulation is here.  The report was

17     made on the basis of an analytical overview.  I wrote this sentence and

18     the reason for that I have to explain in -- this was in order to relieve

19     the pressure of President Martic towards me, or towards the service,

20     rather.  He had a great desire for all the ministries in the Krajina,

21     especially the national bank, financial institutions, the Public and the

22     State Security Service, he wanted to annex them all to the government of

23     the Republic of Serbia.

24             Since at that time he was not on good terms with Mr. Stanisic,

25     the chief of the RDB of Serbia, he always exerted pressure on me to

Page 16955

 1     initiate that, because I knew, for technical and political reasons, that

 2     I was unable to do that.  I never initiated this, but I had to -- I mean,

 3     I didn't have to but I just thought I had to ease the pressure a little

 4     bit, and I had to explain to him, hopefully, that this was not possible.

 5             If you look at this report carefully, it is addressed exclusively

 6     to the minister of the interior who is the initiator of the idea for us

 7     to make an overview which then he would be able to take to Martic.  I

 8     knew that this was so and, simply, I put that there because of the

 9     minister and because of Martic.

10             If we look at the previous paragraph, we can see how small the

11     funds were that we got from the government budget for our work.  I mean,

12     if there were any serious preparations, we would receive some funds from

13     the RDB of Serbia and not -- we would not only have had 27.000 German

14     marks for our work throughout that whole period.

15             I hope you understand.  These were completely different times.

16     It was war.  Again, I repeat, the president was what he was.  So I had to

17     cope with this in -- in different ways.

18             Also, I would like to add - I assume that the archives are

19     accessible to you - I'm convinced that you will not find a single

20     document that talks about the joining or merger of these two services.

21        Q.   Sir, in that answer, when you were talking about

22     President Martic, you said:

23             "He had a great desire for all the ministries in the Krajina,

24     especially the national bank, financial institutions, the Public and the

25     State Security Service, he wanted to annex them all to the

Page 16956

 1     Republic of Serbia ..."

 2             Sir, that is a plan or a proposal to annex the RSK DB to the

 3     DB of Serbia, isn't it?

 4        A.   That was his idea.  But technically, neither orally or in writing

 5     did we ever initiate such initiatives, and I never had an opportunity to

 6     discuss this topic with Mr. Stanisic.

 7        Q.   Did Mr. Martic ever propose that idea to you?  That the RSK DB be

 8     annexed to the DB of Serbia.

 9        A.   Yes, frequently.  Even though I tried to explain to him that this

10     was impossible without a parliament decision, and without the decision of

11     the Government of Serbia.  But he had frequent misunderstandings at that

12     time with President Milosevic and he felt that he could link up with

13     Serbia through the back door, in order to place Milosevic before a

14     fait accompli.  But I knew that this was not -- that this was impossible.

15        Q.   What were the final preparations for the annexation of the RSK DB

16     to the DB of Serbia?  What did you do?

17        A.   Once again, I repeat, I claim that there were no preparations at

18     all for that.  I am personally responsible for this formulation here.

19     And I've already explained why that was.

20        Q.   I'm sorry, I didn't understand that.  How -- how does -- how does

21     final preparations match with no preparations?  I didn't get that from

22     your answer.

23        A.   I said that I put that there, that formulation, that wording, in

24     order to satisfy the president, but there were no preparations

25     whatsoever, which implies no final preparations either.

Page 16957

 1        Q.   So you lied to the president of your republic.

 2        A.   I didn't directly lie to him, but I was guided by the desire to

 3     ease the pressure.  Because his calls frequently were on a daily basis,

 4     and he was known as a man who was difficult to co-operate with.  So in

 5     order to avoid misunderstandings with him, I did that, in order to

 6     prevent any obstructions to our work.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Draca, you're actually explaining why you didn't

 8     tell him the truth, isn't it?  And whether we call that a lie or not, the

 9     truth, that's, of course, I would say a semantic issue.  And you're just

10     explaining that what you wrote down here - that's how we understand your

11     testimony - was not the truth.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could put it that way, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. FARR:  Can we please have P987 on the screen.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And talking about the truth, et cetera, you

16     explained to us now several times that Mr. Martic insisted so much on

17     planning to join the RSK institutions to the Republic of Serbia

18     institutions.  That should have been part of your answer when you were

19     asked about whether any plans were -- or proposals were made.  Because

20     after you had denied that ever such plans were there, not talking about

21     proposals, you now explain to us that Mr. Martic had proposed this

22     various times.  And that should have been part of your answer on the

23     first question put by Mr. Farr.  Because you are not only supposed to

24     tell us the truth and nothing the truth, but also the whole truth, and

25     this was part of what you explained to us now to be the truth.

Page 16958

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I neglected to tender that last document.

 3     It's 65 ter 6366, and I'd ask that it be admitted as a Prosecution

 4     exhibit.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the 1993 report.

 6             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 65 ter 6366 will receive number P3076,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And, absent any objections, is admitted into

11     evidence.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. FARR:

14        Q.   Sir, on your screen we have a letter dated 7 October 1994 written

15     by Milan Martic.  It's addressed to Slobodan Milosevic, the president of

16     Serbia; to Mirko Marjanovic, the prime minister of Serbia;

17     Zoran Sokolovic, the minister of the interior; and to General Perisic,

18     the chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.

19             It concerns an incident on the 4th of October of 1994 when Martic

20     was threatened by armed men after crossing the border from Serbia into

21     the RSK.  Following the incident, Martic --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you reading at this moment?  Then could we

23     please have the English version, because I see that it appears in the

24     B/C/S but -- yes, there we are.

25             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, in fact, I was paraphrasing.  I will be

Page 16959

 1     quoting a portion of the letter.  But to continue the paraphrase.

 2              Following the incident, Martic went to the command of the

 3     11th Corps in Vukovar.

 4             And if we could now have the middle of page 3 in English and the

 5     top of page 2 in B/C/S.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Are we able to allow the witness

 9     somehow to read the entire document, so he has an idea of what the whole

10     document is about.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think Mr. Farr has introduced the document.

12     If there's -- if there's any aspect of this document you would consider

13     it useful at this stage, not later in your examination, to be put to the

14     witness, then you may do a suggestion to Mr. Farr.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

16             MR. FARR:

17        Q.   Sir, the portion that I'm interested, and I'll read that part

18     verbatim, it says:

19             "At the meeting in the command of the 11th Corps in Vukovar, I

20     was given the following information.  The men who organised the incident

21     were members of the paramilitary and parapolice forces stationed in

22     Erdut.  They are under the direct control of Rade Kostic of the state

23     security department of the MUP of Serbia.  These individuals also took

24     part in the kidnapping of Ilija Prijic, minister of the interior of the

25     RSK.

Page 16960

 1             "The said Rade Kostic had entered the territory of the RSK an

 2     hour before I did, i.e., at about 0900 hours, in an official BMW with

 3     registration plates of the MUP of Serbia."

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please provide a reference in

 5     the B/C/S, in the original, for the sake of the interpreters.

 6             MR. FARR:  This is the top of page 3 in English and the middle of

 7     page 2 in B/C/S.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm ... yes.  The second paragraph in English about

 9     the Pajero is found on the top of the page in B/C/S.  And Mr. Farr

10     started reading a little bit further down at the end of the first

11     paragraph in B/C/S, the 11th Corps.

12             Is there any need to have it read again by ...?

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, Your Honour.  At least the second part of

14     the counsel's question.

15             MR. FARR:  Yes, I'll read the -- the second portion.

16             "The said Rade Kostic had entered the territory of the RSK an

17     hour before I did, i.e., at about 0900 hours, in an official BMW with

18     registration plates of the MUP of Serbia."

19             And if we could now have the middle of page 4 in B/C/S.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  There's no page 4 in B/C/S.

21             MR. FARR:  That would be the middle of page 4 in English - I

22     apologise - and the bottom of page -- the bottom of page 2 in B/C/S.

23             And for the booths' information, I will be starting to read with

24     the paragraph that says:  "Mr. President of the Republic ..."

25             Second from the bottom in the B/C/S version.

Page 16961

 1             This portion says:

 2             "Mr. President of the Republic, Mr. Prime Minister, Minister of

 3     the Interior, Chief of Staff, my decision at present is not to go public

 4     with everything that happens to me in the state of which I am the

 5     president.  There is overwhelming evidence that the state security of the

 6     MUP of Serbia is behind these paramilitary and parapolice forces.  There

 7     is also irrefutable evidence that in 80 per cent of the cases these men

 8     come from the Republic of Serbia.

 9             "I have evidence to support all of the above."

10        Q.   Sir, you knew about these claims by Milan Martic; correct?

11        A.   I did.  I knew about this incident.  Immediately on his return,

12     Martic convened the Supreme Defence Council to discuss this incident.

13     I'm not familiar with this document though.  I'm seeing it for the first

14     time.  But I do know what he said about it and it was similar, and then

15     he issued orders in relation to that.

16             I can say that this incident was a result of the political

17     conflict between Hadzic and Martic because Rade Kostic or anyone else

18     would prevent the president from entering the area of Slavonia.  Why

19     would that be in the interests of the Serbian state security?  Since the

20     minister of interior is not mentioned here but he was with Martic.  He

21     did not wish to call anybody to Slavonia.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, lines 13 to 16,

24     page 36.  I think that that is incomplete.  The witness explained whose

25     role -- who had what role there.  At least that's how I understood it.

Page 16962

 1             MR. FARR:  Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. FARR:  If I may.  It's one situation where Mr. Petrovic is

 4     completely certain that a particular word has been left out or some

 5     concrete identifiable mistake has been made, but where we're dealing with

 6     his understanding of a witness's answer --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If he says that the witness explained beyond what is

 8     translated to us, then he is fully entitled to raise that matter.

 9             What I'll do, Mr. Draca, I will read the answer as it appears on

10     the transcript.

11             Now, if there's anything left out, I don't want you to tell us

12     why or, et cetera, but just to add what is not there but what you did

13     say.

14             I slowly read what we find on our transcript.

15             "I can say that this incident was a result of the political

16     conflict between Hadzic and Martic because Rade Kostic or anyone else

17     would prevent the president from entering the area of Slavonia.  Why

18     would that be in the interests of the Serbian state security?"

19             Is there anything missing in what I just read?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that we discussed the issue

21     at the collegium meeting of the Supreme Defence Council.  For the rest, I

22     really don't know.  But that's it.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't want to make

24     suggestions, but the witness did draw a distinction between what

25     Rade Kostic could and could not do.  But this can easily be checked.  I

Page 16963

 1     wouldn't want to suggest anything.  We can have the tape checked and then

 2     we will see what the witness had to say on the issue.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, I think Mr. Farr would

 4     appreciate if you informally would tell him what, in your view, is

 5     missing so that Mr. Farr, if it is of any relevance for his follow-up

 6     questions, but perhaps you could send him an e-mail or -- what you think

 7     is missing.  And apart from that, we can check the audio at a later

 8     stage, if there's any reason to do that.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. FARR:

11        Q.   Sir, you've just indicated that you knew about this incident

12     immediately upon Martic's return, that he convened the Supreme Defence

13     Council to discuss the incident, and that you know what Martic said about

14     it.

15             Earlier today, and this is at page 18 of the transcript, I asked

16     you:

17             "As far as you know, did any RSK official ever indicate either to

18     you or to anyone else that the DB of Serbia controlled an armed group at

19     Erdut?"

20             Your answer was:

21             "No.  Nobody ever told me anything like that.  This was under the

22     control of the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbian Krajina."

23             And then you went on to give your view of who was in control of

24     the facility of Erdut.

25             Sir, again, to me, there seems to be a total contradiction

Page 16964

 1     between what you just said about Martic having told you about this

 2     incident and then what he said about it, and you never having been told

 3     anything about the DB Serbia controlling an armed group at Erdut by any

 4     RSK official.

 5             Could you please explain that?

 6        A.   I didn't finish off my answer, really, because Mr. Petrovic

 7     interrupted me.

 8             On that occasion, Martic did not say decidedly that he knew which

 9     units were involved and I was just about to say that he tasked the

10     minister of the interior with that matter because they didn't think it

11     appropriate that they should talk to these people.  So I was asked to

12     call Mr. Kostic because the information he received from the army, that's

13     to say, from the 11th Corps command, seemed quite lacking conviction.

14     For instance, he was the deputy minister of the interior for Baranja,

15     which is an area north of East Slavonia.  So especially when it comes to

16     Erdut, Kostic had no powers whatsoever over that particular centre.

17             So I did call Rade Kostic after this incident, and he said that

18     he had no part in it, that the 11th Corps command was deceiving Martic,

19     that on that same evening when Martic left, they talked to Hadzic.  And

20     the story was that they were between two stools.  Anyway, subsequently

21     Martic met up with Hadzic.  They sorted it all out without actually going

22     into the details as to whose unit these members belonged to.  This is the

23     first time I'm looking at this report.

24             Since I'm the chief of -- since I was the chief of the

25     State Security Service, I issued an order without the knowledge of

Page 16965

 1     Mr. Martic, asking that the service in East Slavonia and Baranja shed

 2     more light on this event.  They told me that there was a written report

 3     somewhere which said that these were members of public security who were

 4     under full control of Hadzic.

 5             Lest I should create more clashes and conflicts, I did not

 6     forward this report to the president of the republic.  And when I say

 7     "clashes or conflicts," I mean of political nature.

 8        Q.   Sir, I want to be sure that understand your testimony.

 9             Martic did tell you that he believed that it was members of the

10     State Security Service of Serbia who were responsible for this; correct?

11        A.   No.  He didn't put it that way.

12             He said that he had heard from the 11th Corps command that they

13     were members of the MUP of Serbia.  But we expressed our disbelief at

14     that very meeting.  It seemed unlikely that anyone from Serbia would be

15     coming, since the RSK MUP and the 11th Corps in -- had enough members in

16     Slavonia who were loyal to that structure higher up.  I don't see why

17     anybody would be calling people from Serbia to come on in.

18        Q.   Sir, if you -- if you corrected, as you say, Martic's

19     information, why did he then send a letter to Slobodan Milosevic, among

20     others, claiming that these were people under the control of the

21     State Security Service of Serbia?

22        A.   I've already said that this is the first time I'm looking at this

23     report.

24             Perhaps he was acting on an impulse and asking

25     President Milosevic for help, because his reasoning was that if this was

Page 16966

 1     true, only the state leadership of Serbia could give him an answer to

 2     that question.  I really don't know what his motivations were.

 3             Knowing him, I suppose that this is it what they told him,

 4     because he was not a man given to making things up --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat what he said last.

 6             MR. FARR:

 7        Q.   Sir, the end of your answer was not recorded.  Could you repeat

 8     whatever the last thing you said was.

 9        A.   I said that Martic was given to accepting disinformation which

10     would oftentimes result in political clashes in RSK, but not only within

11     the RSK but also political conflicts with the RS and Serbia.

12        Q.   Sir, knew that Mr. Martic did, in fact, send this letter,

13     correct, and you knew what the contents were, generally speaking?

14        A.   No.  I've said twice already that this is the first time I'm

15     looking at this letter.  I wasn't aware of this report.

16        Q.   So just to be clear, it's your evidence that at a time when you

17     were the chief of state security of the RSK, when you were, as you say,

18     reporting to and communicating with the DB of Serbia, the president of

19     your republic sent a letter to the president of Serbia claiming that

20     forces under the control of the DB of Serbia had pointed weapons at him

21     and threatened him at a border crossing between Serbia and the RSK, and

22     you never learned that that letter had been sent.

23             Is that your evidence?

24        A.   I really don't remember seeing this letter before today.

25        Q.   Neither seen it, nor heard about it, nor learned about it in any

Page 16967

 1     way.  Is that your evidence?

 2        A.   You mean this report that we have on our screens right now?

 3        Q.   Learned of the existence of this letter from Martic to

 4     President Milosevic and the rest of the Serbian leadership.

 5        A.   No.  I really can't remember the report.

 6             He would write things often.  By looking at the formulations

 7     contained in this report, I simply can't remember.

 8             MR. FARR:  Could we, please, have 65 --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, could I?

10             Did Mr. Martic tell you that he thought that Kostic was involved?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he did say that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And what explanation did he give in respect of the

13     involvement of Mr. Kostic?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He, too, was taken by surprise

15     because he was on good terms with Mr. Kostic.  He was given that

16     information from the 11th Corps command stationed in Vukovar.  As I said

17     a moment ago, we too expressed disbelief at Mr. Kostic being the

18     organiser behind it all because he was in Slavonia, not in Baranja.

19             He did tell us that they were some -- Kostic's men from the DB of

20     Serbia.  But we were taken aback by that information.  And he did tell us

21     the story in exactly the terms that we see written in this report.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say, He did tell us that they were some

23     Kostic men from the DB of Serbia, are you referring to Mr. Martic?  Was

24     Mr. Martic telling this or ...?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Martic said that.  And he

Page 16968

 1     was referring to the information he got from the 11th Corps.

 2             The next day, Mr. Kostic himself denied it, as much, to me.  He

 3     stated that he had no part in that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, the influence on the territory of the RSK

 5     by the DB of Serbia was not only rumours but was even discussed in this

 6     context.  Meaning that Mr. Martic believed that there was DB of Serbia

 7     involvement in the matter.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've repeatedly said that in that

 9     period of time, Martic was not on good terms with Mr. Stanisic.  And in

10     his view, that was possible.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So it wasn't just -- just rumours.  It was

12     even expressed by the then-highest authority in the Republic of Serbia

13     Krajina.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But all that was not confirmed to

15     us in certain terms, we considered to be rumours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But earlier you were asked whether you

17     remembered any person, any specific person.  And you could have answered

18     that even Mr. Martic, at a certain moment, said this.  Because your

19     testimony was that you were -- that you have no -- you had no

20     recollection of anyone saying this but it just being rumours.

21             You remember that that was your testimony?  But now you adjust

22     that answer by saying that Mr. Martic, at least at one point in time,

23     expressed as his view that Kostic and the DB of Serbia would have been

24     involved in the attack -- or the arrest of him?

25             I'm again seeking whether this is correctly understood.  You -- I

Page 16969

 1     see you're nodding yes.

 2             Then I would like to remind that you're supposed to tell us the

 3     whole truth.  And Mr. Farr may proceed.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

 6             MR. FARR:

 7        Q.   Sir, this letter refers to the kidnapping of minister of the

 8     interior Ilija Prijic.  Around the end of August 1994, Minister Prijic

 9     publicly stated, in fact, at a press conference that he had been

10     kidnapped by four paramilitary soldiers in Borovo Selo, put in a car, and

11     released several hours later in a forest near Bijeljina.  He publicly

12     accused Radoslav Kostic of being behind the kidnapping and also publicly

13     said that Radoslav Kostic worked for Serbian state security.

14             That's all correct, isn't it?

15        A.   I remember that incident as well.  I also remember the press

16     conference.  I don't remember all the details, but I know that he also

17     accused Kostic.  And it was, in fact, this very minister of the interior

18     who was the cause of that conflict with Martic.

19             MR. FARR:  Could we now please have 65 ter 6372 on the screen.

20        Q.   Sir, this document is a report of the RSK RDB in Knin dated

21     28 July 1994.  And as you can see, it's addressed to the commander of the

22     Main Staff of the SVK.

23             And if we could have the next page in English and zoom in on the

24     signature in the B/C/S version.

25             It appears that this document was signed for you by someone; is

Page 16970

 1     that correct?

 2        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 3             MR. FARR:  Could we please return to page 1 of the English and

 4     zoom out on the B/C/S version.

 5        Q.   I'm just going to read a portion of this document.  The subject

 6     line is:  HV or Croatian army activities.  And the document says:

 7             "On 27 July 1994 we received the following urgent dispatch from

 8     the Republic of Serbia DB department:

 9             "We have information that a Croatian army special purpose unit is

10     located in the Nustar village sector, training for a helicopter assault.

11     The helicopter assault is planned in the following sectors: Bridges on

12     the rivers Danube at Bezdan and Bogojevo."

13             And then the document goes on to give more details about the

14     assault.

15             I'd just like to read to you a portion of your testimony on

16     Thursday.  And this is transcript pages 16907 to 16908.  The discussion

17     was about written reports or communications from the DB of Serbia to you.

18     You said:

19             "We didn't receive reports about internal political matters of

20     Serbia.  The reports that the Serbian DB sent to us in Knin had to do

21     with specific developments that they would draw our attention to.  It was

22     a wide range of issues.  I don't know how far you would want me to

23     explain it to you.  I didn't need to inform the president of the republic

24     or anything of that sort.  Those were issues that related to the

25     service."

Page 16971

 1             And then my next question was:

 2             "Were some of them military matters?

 3             Your answer was:

 4             "No, never?"

 5             "Q.  So the Serbian DB never sent you a written communication

 6     regarding military matters that might be relevant for the SVK; is that

 7     correct?

 8             "A.  No.  I had never received a report that would relate to

 9     anything contacted with the SVK.

10             "Q.  Do you have any knowledge of anyone in your service ever

11     receiving information from the Serbian DB and forwarding it to the SVK?

12             "A.  I don't remember anything of that sort."

13             Sir, this document contradicts your testimony, doesn't it?

14        A.   No.  This isn't a document or a report related to military

15     matters.  This is a report from an agent in the field sending information

16     about the movement of troops.  Precisely for that reason, we forwarded

17     that information in full to those who were charged with military issues.

18     So the Assembly of the RSK cannot discuss these issues of assessment, how

19     realistic this is, or whatever.  That's why we would fully convey this

20     information to the army.  Not because we considered the information to be

21     of military nature but because of who the information might be important

22     for.

23             Perhaps we were at cross purposes or we didn't understand each

24     other when you were asking me about military matters.

25        Q.   Sir, I did my best do make sure that that didn't happen and that

Page 16972

 1     is why I asked you the last question, which was:  Do you have any

 2     knowledge of anyone in your service ever receiving information from the

 3     Serbian DB and forwarding it to the SVK?

 4             To which you answered that you didn't remember anything of that

 5     sort.

 6             Are you now saying that that answer was not accurate?

 7        A.   No.  Your question had only to do with military issues.  The

 8     issues that I considered to be of military nature were never forwarded by

 9     myself or anybody else.

10             This is part of routine reporting.  For instance, when the Glina

11     centre would send information to Knin, if I wasn't there, the deputy, if

12     he thought it might be interesting for the Main Staff because it had to

13     do with the defence of the RSK, the deputy had to forward it just as it

14     is.  So we wouldn't extract information or make a summary of it.  We

15     would forward it to the army as is, for them to see how relevant those

16     issues would be.  But we never dealt with military issues.

17             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, I tender this as a Prosecution Exhibit.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6327 will receive P3077, Your Honours.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I should have jumped up earlier and I should

21     have jumped up earlier with the previous exhibit.

22             Would the Prosecution indicate the purpose of the exhibit?  Is it

23     for impeachment purposes?

24             MR. FARR:  It's for impeachment and for substantive evidence,

25     Your Honour.

Page 16973

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Then I would object to the latter.  I don't object

 2     to it to being used as impeachment, but I do object to it being used as

 3     -- for the truth of its contents.  The Prosecution have used it for a

 4     very specific purpose.  We have all seen that purpose.  It is for

 5     Your Honours to evaluate whether that purpose was effective or not.  But

 6     to then introduce it for the contents but without giving any indication

 7     whatsoever as to its probative value or its relevance --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, this raises a matter which is often on my mind,

 9     Mr. Jordash.

10             If you say for the substantive value and not only for purposes of

11     challenging the reliability or the credibility of this witness, then, of

12     course, that raises a series of questions, the first being was this --

13     because we're talking about the letter sent to -- are we -- the previous

14     one, the letter --

15             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, the letter is in evidence, just to avoid

16     any confusion on that point.  P987 is already in evidence.  The letter

17     from Martic.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, that's right.  It's this exhibit.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I beg your pardon?

20             MR. JORDASH:  It's this proposed exhibit that --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  This proposed -- we're now talking about the one

22     now?

23             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then I'm back in --

25             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, that was my fault.

Page 16974

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.

 2             MR. FARR:  Your Honour --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. FARR:  Our understanding is that the close co-operation

 5     between the DB and all of the armies is contested.  The relationship

 6     between the DB and the military has certainly been almost the theme of

 7     this case, so it's certainly relevant to that issue.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You would say --

 9             MR. FARR:  That's why we would tender it.

10             MR. JORDASH:  But --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr apparently has a double reason to tender

12     this document.

13             First, to challenge the credibility and reliability of this

14     witness is; and, second, to establish that there was a type of exchange

15     of information or at least receiving information from the DB of Serbia,

16     which he considers relevant in the context of establishing what the role

17     of the Serbian DB in the events in the RSK were.

18             MR. FARR:  And, Your Honour, if I could just add also the

19     relationship between the Serbian DB and the RSK DB, the RSK DB acting as

20     a conduit between those two.

21             MR. JORDASH:  And there's clear distinction here.  One is that

22     the Prosecution, we accept, could not have predicted that this witness

23     would testify in the way that he has.  Therefore, we don't object to the

24     use of the document to impeach that testimony which they couldn't

25     predict.  But as Mr. Farr has indicated and very clear, the issue of

Page 16975

 1     co-operation between the DB and entities such as these dealt with in the

 2     document have been a live issue from the moment the indictment was

 3     drafted.  The Prosecution ought to, having decided what their case was

 4     against the DB and against the first accused, ought to, if they wanted to

 5     rely upon this document, have put it in their initial evidence.

 6             So that we, during the Prosecution case, during the Defence case,

 7     could have adequately dealt with the issue.  Now all we can do is rely

 8     upon what Mr. Draca has said and we can rely upon the future witnesses

 9     called by Mr. Simatovic's team.  What we cannot do is counter this

10     evidence through the last three years of the trial.  That's the problem.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll consider it.  The document will --

12             MR. FARR:  Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, yes.

14             MR. FARR:  Just except that -- a few further submissions on that

15     point.

16             Your Honours observed, in paragraph 14 of your decision regarding

17     the admission of evidence in the cross-examination of Defence witnesses,

18     that the real test is one of sufficient connection to the witness's

19     evidence.  This is a document that the witness acknowledges was signed

20     for him.  It's something that was perhaps not important enough to be

21     included in our case when Mr. Draca was not going to be a witness in this

22     case.

23             Mr. Draca now has been a witness in this case.  He has testified

24     for a considerable period of time.  The need to contextualise his

25     evidence is all the greater.  And also, as you observed, it is consistent

Page 16976

 1     with the spirit of 90(H)(i) to admit Prosecution documents in support of

 2     their case if they're sufficiently connected to the witness's evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  If Your Honours' decision was intended to remove

 5     any restriction on the Prosecution tendering exhibits, except that the

 6     Prosecution establish that the proposed exhibit has a sufficient

 7     connection to the case, then there are no evidential rules.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not what Mr. Farr says.  Mr. Farr says --

 9             MR. FARR:  [Overlapping speakers] ... that's not the case,

10     Your Honour, to the witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in relation to the witness, not to the case but

12     to the witness.

13             Mr. Farr tell us that they couldn't foresee who you would call as

14     witnesses.  They could not present, well, let's say, the thousands and

15     thousands of documents from the bar table which may have some relevance

16     but which are not directly linked to the witnesses called by the

17     Prosecution, that they therefore now carefully select relevant documents

18     which can be directly linked to the witnesses they were not aware of at

19     the time, that they would be Defence witnesses.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Well, if -- if -- if that is your --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's if -- let me just verify whether I understood

22     your argument well.

23             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Jordash.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Well, if Your Honours' decision is to be taken as

Page 16977

 1     the Prosecution only need establish a sufficient connection to the

 2     witness's evidence, then I -- I don't pursue the argument.  The objection

 3     is on the record.  We disagree with that decision, but I'll leave it at

 4     that because that is the decision.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Out of an abundance of caution, the document will be

 6     MFI'd, and we'll consider whether this document meets all the

 7     requirements.  And we might want to re-read our own guidance in this

 8     respect so that we do not make any mistakes.

 9             Madam Registrar, I think a number was already assigned.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  P3077, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is marked for identification.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. FARR:  Could we please have D672 on the screen now.

14        Q.   And, sir, perhaps while that's coming up, I'll just remind you

15     this is a report that you discussed during your testimony on Tuesday of

16     last week, and I'd like to read to you a portion of your testimony.

17             You first said that this was one of the reports of the

18     then-State Security Service of the SAO Krajina.  And this is at

19     transcript page 16719.  You then went on to say:

20             "Based on the format of the document, I can tell you that this is

21     a report that the Knin centre, i.e., Dusan Orlovic, or one of his

22     associates in Knin, made to give an outline of current issues that were

23     sent to the Serb National Council and Milan Martic.

24             "Q.  Do you know if this document was sent to anyone else?

25             "A.  No."

Page 16978

 1             On the next page of the transcript, you said:

 2             "This document is, as its title suggests, a summary of current

 3     information.  However, since it is a report made by the State Security

 4     Service, i.e., containing information gathered from associates,

 5     collaborators in a sensitive way, from sources even political, we can say

 6     that this was a fully confidential document that was only for the eyes of

 7     Milan Martic and the Serb National Council."

 8             Sir, how can you be sure that this report was not sent to anyone

 9     other than Milan Martic and the Serb National Council?

10        A.   I cannot be sure, but that was the practice in that period, so I

11     assumed that that's how it went.

12        Q.   All right.  I'm going to turn now to the contents of the

13     document.

14             The first paragraph of the document says:

15             "There has been a clash between Babic and Martic regarding the

16     appointment of new SAO K ministers, particularly with regard to the MUP,

17     where someone who has been discredited has been chosen as minister.

18     Because of this, the police rejected the appointments of new supervisors.

19     Intensive work is under way to sort out this clash."

20             First, can you tell us briefly about this event, if you're

21     familiar with it?

22        A.   This is a mistake by the minister.  This was June.  There was

23     no --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to repeat

25     what he said.

Page 16979

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could -- you're invited to repeat what you said,

 2     because the interpreters didn't catch the whole of your answer.

 3             You started by saying:

 4             "This is a mistake by the minister.  This was June."

 5             And could you then repeat what you then said.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This term "minister" refers to the

 7     chief of the Knin SUP.  Ilija Prijic was elected, who came from Zagreb,

 8     and the police in Knin, the local police, did not welcome him gladly.

 9             MR. FARR:

10        Q.   So in essence, it was a clash between Babic and Martic regarding

11     Prijic's appointment as the chief of the Knin SUP; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, I think so.  Yes.

13        Q.   On Thursday, you told us that both Milan Martic and Milan Babic

14     were on the Serb National Council and in fact that Milan Babic was the

15     president of it.

16             Is it really your evidence that Dusan Orlovic or one of his

17     associates was sending a report to Milan Martic and Milan Babic about a

18     political clash between Milan Martic and Milan Babic?

19        A.   In that period, the Serbian National Council had a lot of

20     members.  I think there were more than ten.  From all regions.  When

21     we're talking about the SAO Krajina, that area was Banja, Kordun, Lika,

22     and Dalmatia and they had all had representatives in the council, and I

23     assume that that is the reason why the information was sent in this form.

24     And you can see from the first paragraph that everybody was careful not

25     to insult either one or to take sides.

Page 16980

 1        Q.   If we move down to the first paragraph under military affairs,

 2     I'm going to read a portion.  It says:

 3             "There was a demonstration of force by the SAOK special forces in

 4     Grahovo and Drvar.  This was a case of premature improvisation by Martic

 5     which was unsuccessfully opposed by Babic (at the request of Karadzic

 6     from the BH SDS)."

 7             Now once again, according to you, we have Orlovic or one of his

 8     associates reporting to Martic and Babic about a clash between them and

 9     also saying the Martic engaged in premature improvisation.

10             Sir, doesn't this show that the intended audience of this report

11     was not Milan Martic and the SNC?

12        A.   I cannot say for whom this was.  Perhaps it was Draskovic [as

13     interpreted who was an extremely influential person at the time.  I

14     cannot know.  This incident is a result of the Martic-Babic incident, so

15     probably it was necessary for this to be resolved or to settle down.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the name of the

18     person has not been recorded properly.  And I don't see that it's been

19     marked for a check.  It's line 13, page 54.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When you said:

21             "I cannot say for whom this was.  Perhaps it was Draskovic," but

22     that's how it's written.  Could you repeat that name and perhaps spell

23     it.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  That is not Draskovic.  The

25     name of the person is David Rastovic.  Rastovic.

Page 16981

 1             MR. FARR:

 2        Q.   Sir, in the paragraph we just read, there's a mention of SAOK

 3     special forces, and it characterises their actions as a case of premature

 4     improvisation by Martic.  I take it that the SAOK special forces being

 5     referred to are police forces; is that correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And those were the forces trained at Golubic; correct?

 8        A.   This happened at the time that training was going on at Golubic.

 9     It was not complete yet.  At least not for that class.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, could I ask one clarifying question.

11             This David Rastovic you were talking about, was he a member of

12     the -- what again is the name of the -- was he a member of the Serbian

13     National Council?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I took him as an example, but

15     it's possible there were some other members too.  But I think he was a

16     vice-president.  One of the vice-presidents.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. FARR:

19        Q.   Sir, moving to the next paragraph, it says:

20             "The local population in the village of Bratiskovci erected

21     barricades that turned out to be a hindrance to JNA movements.  These

22     barricades were removed through the intervention of an SAOK special unit,

23     and the JNA units were allowed unhindered movement."

24             Is that also a reference to a special police unit?

25        A.   Yes, that is correct.

Page 16982

 1        Q.   And then the next paragraph says:

 2             "Armoured units of the JNA 5th Army District located at Plitvice

 3     blockaded Udbina, (15 vehicles), and thereby also blockaded a detachment

 4     of the SAO Krajina special forces that was training in the area."

 5             Once again, police forces, sir?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And these two paragraphs show that there was good co-operation

 8     between the RSK MUP and the JNA already in June of 1991; correct?

 9        A.   The sentence goes on to say that an adequate agreement with JNA

10     members from the federal SUP, the meeting -- the disagreement was

11     resolved.

12             Don't misunderstand me, but the federal SUP from Serbia also sent

13     a large numbers of operatives who were trying to contribute to peace in

14     that area and who were covering all sorts of incidents in the area.

15        Q.   Sir, the next paragraph says:

16             "New shipment of weapons and equipment arrived successfully."

17             Is it correct that this is a reference to a shipment of weapons

18     and equipment from the Serbian DB?

19        A.   No, absolutely no.  I don't know that the DB ever sent a single

20     pistol from Serbia.  I think we're talking about the TO depot here in

21     Golubic that we talked about earlier.  I don't know if this was given by

22     the army or not.  I really cannot say who it came from, since I don't

23     know.

24             As for the DB of Serbia, I assume that I would have heard had

25     this come from them.

Page 16983

 1             MR. FARR:  If we could now have the next page in B/C/S.  And

 2     we'll skip to the last paragraph of the document.  I think we'll need the

 3     next page in English as well.  In fact, the last page in English.  No,

 4     sorry, it's the bottom of this page in English also.

 5        Q.   Sir, I want to read you the last line of this report.  It says:

 6             "The training of SDB strike and sabotage groups from the SAOK

 7     border areas is going according to plan."

 8             I'm now going to read you a portion of your testimony on

 9     Thursday, starting with my question:

10             "Did the SAO Krajina DB ever have any armed formations or groups

11     of its own?

12             "A.  No.

13             "Q.  You were not aware of any of the SDB ever training its own

14     strike and sabotage groups; is that correct?

15             "A.  As far as I know, the SDB of Krajina did not have such

16     units."

17             And that's transcript page 16890.

18             Sir, this document contradicts your testimony, doesn't it?

19        A.   I continue to assert that I never heard of any SDB groups.

20             At that point in time I was also in the border area.  I had eight

21     operatives, and none of them had been in any sort of course, especially

22     not a strike and sabotage group course, so I don't know what

23     Dusan Orlovic meant when he talked about this.  I never heard of that.

24     It would have been a generally known thing.  The Krajina is a small area,

25     so if there were any SDB strike and sabotage units, that would have been

Page 16984

 1     known.

 2        Q.   So is it your evidence that this document is inaccurate?  Is it

 3     your evidence that it could have happened without your knowledge?

 4     Which -- which of those case -- which -- which of those things are you

 5     saying?

 6        A.   Precisely that.  It's possible that it's incorrect, and it's

 7     possible that they did exist, but I did not hear of them, nor do I know

 8     anything about that.

 9        Q.   Sir, in fact, the real audience for this report was the DB of

10     Serbia; isn't that correct?

11        A.   Could you please repeat what you said?  I didn't hear the

12     interpreter completely.

13        Q.   Sir, the truth is this is a document that was intended to be sent

14     to the DB of Serbia; isn't that true?

15        A.   I cannot assert that.  I cannot know that.  I don't know why it

16     would be sent to the Serbian DB, if, at that point, the intelligence

17     group is in Knin.  But this is just an assumption.

18             MR. FARR:  Can we please have Exhibit P1304 on the screen.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

20             MR. JORDASH:  I was just going to note the time and wonder if we

21     could have a break, please.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break.  And we resume at

23     25 minutes to 1.00.

24             But, Mr. Farr, could you give us an indication as far as the time

25     is concerned.  You were invited to see whether you could reduce the time

Page 16985

 1     you would need --

 2             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I've taken things somewhat out of order.

 3     If I could have the break to take a look and provide my estimate when we

 4     return.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which this allows us to consider it during the

 6     break.  So, therefore -- but please inform us after the break.

 7             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and resume at 25 minutes to 1.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, any indication?

12             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I think it will be approximately

13     two hours from this point.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then you stay within the original estimate

15     although it was rather large.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. FARR:  For the Chamber's information, I have been informed

18     I've used about two and a quarter hours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, two hours and 13 minutes.

20             MR. FARR:

21        Q.   Sir, I just want to clarify one of my question that I asked you

22     earlier that I'm not sure was recorded in the transcript exactly the way

23     I asked you.

24             I had intended to ask you:  To your knowledge, was the RSK DB

25     ever involved in any attempts to obtain weapons for the SVK or other


Page 16986

 1     armed forces in the Krajina?

 2        A.   Specifically I don't know.  But it's possible that these were

 3     some quantities of official weapons that were there in the field and

 4     every operative was issued an official pistol, a weapon.

 5        Q.   But not talking about for the needs of the RSK DB.  Talking about

 6     for the needs of the SVK, was the RSK DB, to your knowledge, ever

 7     involved in efforts to obtain weapons for the SVK?

 8        A.   No, I really don't recall such a situation.  As far as I know,

 9     I -- I didn't come across something like that.

10             MR. FARR:  Can we please have Exhibit P1304 on the screen.

11        Q.   Sir, this is a letter dated the 30th of June, 1995.  It's

12     addressed to President Martic, to General Mile Mrksic as commander of the

13     Main Staff of the SVK, to you as the chief of the RDB in Knin, and to

14     Jovica Stanisic as chief of the RDB in Belgrade.

15             And could we please now have the top of page 4 -- actually, can

16     we move into private session first, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16987











11 Page 16987 redacted. Private session.















Page 16988

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             MR. FARR:  Can we now go back to the top of the first page in

10     both languages.

11        Q.   Sir, at the top of the page we see a stamp indicating that this

12     document was received in Knin on 7 July 1995.  Just below that, we see a

13     handwritten note saying that one copy of the document was given to the

14     commander of the SVK Main Staff and one copy was given to the chief of

15     the RDB.

16             That would have been you at this time; correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   Are you able to tell us whose handwriting this is and whose

19     initials?

20        A.   This is the handwriting of the director of this bureau by the

21     name of Djumic [phoen].  I mean, I suppose that he is the author of the

22     text so I guess the handwriting is his.

23        Q.   And can we please have the next page in English.

24             Sir, the first sentence of this document reads as follows:

25             "Pursuant to the approval of the president of the RSK,


Page 16989

 1     Mr. Milan Martic, as well as the request of the GS SVK, document number

 2     3-282 dated 29 May 1995, through our authorised representative,

 3     Mr. Simo Milovanovic, aka Pidzuka, we made contact with certain

 4     organisations in Russia.  The aim was to find solutions for the

 5     acquisition of equipment and weaponry which are essential for the

 6     Krajina."

 7             Sir, do you have any knowledge of this attempt to obtain weapons

 8     for the SVK?

 9        A.   No, I don't.  Firstly I'm surprised at such a large quantity of

10     weapons, especially infantry weapons.  Secondly, I don't know why

11     Russians, the Kozak formations would be involved.  It seems to me that

12     this initiative lacks any seriousness, and it never happened.  Let me say

13     that in that period of time, the Russian Federation recognised the

14     Republic of Croatia so we had no sort of assistance, save for donors

15     sending in humanitarian aid from across the world.

16        Q.   Sir, do you recall receiving this letter?

17        A.   Really, I don't.  Perhaps I did receive it and discarded it as

18     lacking in seriousness.  But I don't remember it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, could we try to find out.  The witness was

20     referring to the large quantity, where -- I may have not have had

21     sufficient time to look at the document.  But what he is referring to

22     exactly?

23             You were surprised by the large quantity.  Could you tell us what

24     you were referring to, Mr. Draca?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant was that there were so

Page 16990

 1     many weapons in Krajina that there was no need for them to be obtained

 2     elsewhere.  We had so many tanks but we lacked crews.  We had side-arms

 3     that were left over from the JNA, as well as many other assets that we

 4     had in sufficient quantities.  So I'm really puzzled by this proposal.

 5     And especially from Russia which was widely known at the time to hold a

 6     neutral position of non-interference with Croatia.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, please proceed.

 8             MR. FARR:

 9        Q.   Sir, do you know why Mr. Jarcevic, Milan Martic's advisor, would

10     consider it appropriate to send you a letter on this matter?

11        A.   Well, since it does involve countries abroad and there is mention

12     made to Colonel Golubejev, a retired colonel, I suppose we needed to have

13     this letter in order to check its veracity, to see if it is realistic or

14     not.

15        Q.   And what do you mean, to see if it's realistic or not?  Do you

16     mean the letter itself, whether the letter itself is authentic?

17        A.   I don't mean the authenticity of the letter but, rather, of this

18     gentleman from Russia who is mentioned here.  This because, in that

19     period of time, various delegations were coming from Russia, Ukraine, and

20     elsewhere, offering all sorts of things, and nothing came out of it,

21     ever.  Because you can see that we are not mentioned here in this letter

22     anywhere, nor are we supposed to deal with the contents of the letter in

23     any way.  That's why, I suppose.

24        Q.   Okay.  If we skip the next paragraph, I'd just like to read a

25     quote to you, and this is the paragraph that begins with the words:  "The

Page 16991

 1     Russian side ..."

 2             It says:

 3             "The Russian side is ready, through mediation by the Cossack

 4     organisations, to deliver to the RSK equipment and weaponry under the

 5     following conditions:

 6             "The Russians need paper coverage for the export of goods.  The

 7     most realistic option would be if the papers would be made out to the

 8     Bulgarian army for arms needs.

 9             "The whole business would be conducted by Russian-Bulgarian

10     companies which trade in weapons.  The heads of these companies are

11     exclusively former high-ranking officers of the KGB and the Bulgarian

12     intelligence services."

13             And if we could now have the top of the next page in B/C/S.

14             "The head of the company which would handle the deal is

15     retired general Stojmov [phoen], who now lives and works in Sofia.  The

16     obligation of the Russian side would be the transport to a Black Sea port

17     or possibly to Varna in Bulgaria.  The transit and transport through

18     Bulgaria by trailer-trucks would be done by the Bulgarian side.  The

19     Bulgarians ask a 1 percent commission of the contracted detail for the

20     service."

21             Sir, isn't the truth that the reason that both you and

22     Mr. Stanisic were copied on this letter is that this was intended to be a

23     secret arms transaction, and the assistance of both the DB of Serbia and

24     the RSK DB was required to secretly transfer weapons from the

25     Bulgarian/Serbian border into the RSK?

Page 16992

 1        A.   Had the author of the text had that in mind, one of the passages

 2     would also have to do -- would have to contain a proposal for the DB to

 3     be involved.  My thinking is that this was intended as information for us

 4     because whoever was more professionally involved in police work and

 5     political work knew that it was impossible to carry this out.  Two

 6     countries that had recognised Croatia, i.e., Russia and Bulgaria,

 7     allowing to use an arms shipment to -- allowing an arms shipment to pass

 8     along their countries to come into a country which, as I said, had

 9     sufficient quantities of weapons.  I can see that the government

10     bureau -- or, rather, it's the first time that I'm seeing the government

11     bureau addressing a letter directly to Mr. Stanisic.

12        Q.   Sir, you mentioned that Russia and Bulgaria had both recognised

13     Croatia.  But isn't that precisely the reason that the DBs had to be

14     involved?  Russia and Bulgaria couldn't do this openly.  Therefore, they

15     had to involve your service and the Serbian service; is that correct?

16        A.   I repeat:  I don't see a single proposal, let alone an order for

17     the DBs -- for the two DBs to be involved in this.  I said that I don't

18     recall the document at all, let alone any involvement on our part.  We

19     weren't perceiving this as serious business in any way.

20        Q.   Sir, on Thursday -- and I'm finished with that document, thank

21     you.

22             On Thursday, you were asked whether you had ever met Mr. Stanisic

23     in your life and, if so, how many times.  You indicated that you had met

24     him four or five times, usually at meetings, and you clarified that those

25     meetings took place either at the Pauk headquarters or in Belgrade And

Page 16993

 1     that's at transcript 16834.

 2             Were those four or five meetings the only times in your life you

 3     met Mr. Stanisic or the only times during the war?

 4        A.   There was another opportunity during the visit to the Plitvice

 5     Lakes National Park, when Mr. Stanisic came on the occasion of a peace

 6     conference that was held in Republika Srpska, and he was seeking the

 7     support of Milan Martic.  I suppose, I wasn't there, but I know there was

 8     a large delegation on behalf of us there at the Plitvice lakes.  And we

 9     met once again in 1995, after the fall of the Krajina, and never again

10     before my arrival at the Tribunal.

11        Q.   And why did you meet in 1995 after the fall of the Krajina?

12        A.   Well, I left him a couple of messages to receive me.  I was

13     seeking employment.  I went to Belgrade with my family and was

14     unemployed.

15        Q.   And you left the Krajina, I assume, at the time of

16     Operation Storm; is that correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   And what date did you leave the Krajina?

19        A.   I left Knin on the 5th of August.  In other words, during

20     Operation Storm in 1995.

21        Q.   And when did you arrive in Belgrade?

22        A.   I think I arrived Belgrade some eight or nine days later, because

23     that was the duration of the trip through Republika Srpska.  So it may

24     have been the 12th or the 13th of August.

25        Q.   Now, you've indicated that you asked for a meeting with

Page 16994

 1     Mr. Stanisic.  Did that meeting occur?

 2        A.   Yes.  Five or six days later, Mr. Stanisic received me.

 3        Q.   And what happened at that meeting?

 4        A.   I described to him what my personal problems were, and we also

 5     discussed the fall of the Krajina, where the chance of establishing peace

 6     was missed.  He accommodated my request, and I filled out all the papers

 7     to be employed with the RDB of Serbia.

 8        Q.   So you were employed with the RDB of Serbia essentially on the

 9     intervention of Jovica Stanisic; is that correct?

10        A.   You can put it that way.

11        Q.   And you kept that job -- or a job in the successor, BIA, for

12     12 years until you retired; correct?

13        A.   Yes.  I continued in my job in the BIA, or what was subsequently

14     the BIA.

15        Q.   Had you obtained Serbian citizenship at the time that you got

16     your job in the Serbian DB?

17        A.   Naturally I applied for citizenship.  However, this was a very

18     slow process at the time.  Since most of the 300.000 refugees had

19     applied, it took some time but eventually I got Serbian citizenship.

20        Q.   Do you know approximately when?

21        A.   There were technical difficulties where, on one occasion, the

22     papers were misplaced; on another, it was lost as the documents were

23     relocated during bombing.  Eventually it was in autumn of 1999 or 2000

24     that I obtained citizenship.

25        Q.   As a technical matter, under Serbian law, were you permitted to

Page 16995

 1     be an employee of the Serbian DB without holding Serbian citizenship?

 2        A.   As far as I remember, government adopted bylaws at the time,

 3     whereby refugees were able to exercise certain rights as soon as they

 4     applied.  So there was an amendment to the legislation.  I just can't

 5     remember when exactly that was.

 6        Q.   Is it safe to say that it had not happened by the 28th of August,

 7     1995, when Mr. Stanisic signed your decision on employment?

 8        A.   Let me say, first of all, that it doesn't only involve the MUP or

 9     the RDB.  All the other ministries, ministry of energy, ministry of

10     finance, all the various government agencies such as accountancies at

11     central bank, all of them admitted such applicants, and, if somebody

12     was -- could not prove that they had employment at the time that they

13     obtained citizenship, they would be dismissed.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the question was whether those bylaws had

15     already been adopted on the 28th of August.  Now we got a lot of

16     explanation on other matters but not an answer to the question.

17             Were those bylaws adopted when you were appointed?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly.  But I

19     suppose that they were.  Because a great many people were employed

20     already on the 1st of September.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So the answer is:  I don't know, but practice was

22     that persons were employed already.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. FARR:

25        Q.   Sir, during your employment with the Serbian DB, did you work

Page 16996

 1     directly with Mr. Stanisic or Mr. Simatovic?

 2        A.   No.

 3             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, we've uploaded the excerpts from the

 4     witness's personnel file as 65 ter 6368.  We would ask that those be

 5     admitted.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  I'm just wondering what the relevance is, given the

 8     witness's answers.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

10             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, it's essentially the same.  It's to

11     corroborate the testimony of the witness on that point, to indicate his

12     history of employment with the Serbian DB.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there -- do we need the details?  We know that it

14     was 12 years starting on the 28th of August, 1995.  Are we supposed to

15     look at any of the -- and apparently there is no disagreement about that,

16     Mr. Jordash.

17             MR. FARR:  I'll withdraw it, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Why do we need the details, unless there's any

19     specific reason to --

20             MR. FARR:  That was -- that was the purpose.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That was the purpose.  Then you withdraw your --

22             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

24             MR. FARR:  Can we please have Exhibit P2670 on the screen.

25        Q.   Sir, this is a report that you were shown during your direct

Page 16997

 1     examination.  You said that it was a document produced by the

 2     Territorial Defence Staff.  You were asked the reason that the report was

 3     addressed to Frenki, among others.  And you said:

 4             "But I suppose that when Mr. Dragisic submitted this report to

 5     Frenki, the purpose was for him to be informed on a daily basis, because

 6     he told us that one of his tasks during his stay in the area of Knin was

 7     to collect information on a daily basis.  And as this person was a close

 8     relative to Martic, I suppose that Martic told Dragisic that he should

 9     provide this type of information to Frenki."

10             Sir, Milan Martic was aware of Mr. Simatovic's presence in the

11     Krajina at the time and he supported Mr. Simatovic's mission in the

12     Krajina; correct?

13        A.   I suppose so.  Krajina was small, and it was unavoidable.  And

14     the Serbian National Council had to be aware of at least some of the

15     basic issues.  Even if he had come in illegally, he probably judged at

16     some point that he to come out into the open in order not to get into

17     some sort of contradiction with people in Knin.

18        Q.   Sir, you answered the first part of my question, which was

19     Martic's awareness.

20             The second part is:  Mr. Martic supported Mr. Simatovic's mission

21     in the Krajina; correct?

22        A.   I'm not able to know if he personally supported it or not.  I

23     never discussed the issue with him, and especially not in that period of

24     time when we barely knew each other.

25        Q.   You indicated that you did know that it was Martic who told

Page 16998

 1     Dragisic to provide this type of information to Frenki, though.  Doesn't

 2     that indicate that Martic was supporting Mr. Simatovic's mission to

 3     gather information?

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can my learned friend accurately

 7     quote the witness.  The witness said, "I suppose."  He didn't say that he

 8     knew.  And I think that my learned friend even read it out a couple of

 9     lines back.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

11             MR. FARR:  Mr. Petrovic is correct.  I'll reformulate.

12        Q.   Sir, you told us that you suppose that Martic told Dragisic to

13     provide this type of information to Frenki.  Why do you suppose that?

14        A.   Because all of us, from the smallest child to the oldest

15     inhabitant of Krajina, hoped that assistance would come from Serbia, that

16     conflicts would be averted, and that peace would prevail.  And even at

17     that time it was quite obvious that we weren't able to achieve that

18     without the help of Serbia.  Of course, this is an assumption on my part.

19     What his direct knowledge about it was is something that I cannot

20     possibly know.

21        Q.   Can we now just briefly look at the addressee list and identify

22     the other people there who are not identified by name.

23             Starting with the president of the National Defence Council of

24     the SAO Krajina.  Was that Babic?

25        A.   Yes, that's right.

Page 16999

 1        Q.   The secretary of the SUP of SAO Krajina.  Was that Martic?

 2        A.   I'm not sure if it was Martic or Prijic.  One of the two.

 3        Q.   And just to be clear, you're talking about the secretary of the

 4     SUP of Krajina, not the SUP of Knin.

 5        A.   At that time, the secretary of the SUP in Knin was also the

 6     secretary of -- for the SAO Krajina.

 7        Q.   And this also says ODB, which has been translated as organ of

 8     state security.  Can you tell us who that would have gone to in the ODB?

 9        A.   To Dusan Orlovic.  Only to him.  Or to the person substituting

10     him on that day, if he was absent.

11        Q.   And, finally, the SAO Krajina commander.  Who was that?

12        A.   I noticed this formulation when I was reading the first document.

13     We didn't have an SAO Krajina commander at the time.  There was the JNA.

14     So I suppose that this refers to Milan Martic.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MR. FARR:  Can we now please have P1122 on the screen.

17        Q.   Sir, this is a report in essentially the same format as the one

18     we just looked at.  The addressees are slightly different.

19             Starting with the Supreme Commander of the SAO Krajina TO, can

20     you tell us who that would have been, at this time, on the 6th of August,

21     1991?

22        A.   The dates of both reports are close together, and it's impossible

23     in such a short period to have such political changes, to have a

24     Supreme Commander named.  Obviously it was the desire of the author to

25     flatter Milan Martic, because, as far as I know, nobody had a title like

Page 17000

 1     that assigned to them by the National Council or the government,

 2     especially not to him.  As far as the defence of the Krajina is

 3     concerned, he was the most popular person.

 4        Q.   Looking at the first paragraph of the document, and if we could

 5     scroll down in English, please, it says:

 6             "Due to the visit of the SFRJ vice-president, Branko Kostic, and

 7     the peace delegation, Milan Martic has issued an order for a cease-fire

 8     except in the event of direct attack."

 9             Does this show that Milan Martic had command authority over the

10     TO at this time?

11        A.   Yes.  It could be considered that Martic - I don't know whether

12     personally, directly but he worked in line with decisions of the

13     Serbian National Council, whereby the Krajina [as interpreted] was

14     outside of all of these things that I'm talking about, and the

15     Territorial Defence and the local police were part of the Serbian

16     National Council, or the National Defence Council.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, page 73, line 25,

19     states:

20             "While the Krajina was outside of all of these things."

21             The witness said something else.  Perhaps we can clarify that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat what you said?  And I read

23     the part not contested:

24             "But he worked in line with decisions of the Serbian National

25     Council whereby," and then you said something about the Krajina.

Page 17001

 1             Could you repeat that.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the Krajina but the JNA was

 3     outside of the organisational scheme of the Serbian National Council, if

 4     I may put it like that specifically.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

 6             MR. FARR:  I think we'll need the next page in English.

 7        Q.   Now I'm interested in the portion that says:

 8             "According to information from the DB, 11 people were killed and

 9     25 wounded during the fighting in the Velika Glava and Bratiskovci area,

10     and several buildings were destroyed."

11             Can you tell us why it was the DB that was providing this

12     information to the TO?

13        A.   The state security was established precisely because of that, so

14     that the Serbian National Council, as the key body, would not receive

15     information exclusively from the JNA military security.  At that point in

16     time, it was considered to be quite unreliable.  Well, that it was the

17     most unreliable organ as far as the SAO Krajina was concerned.  The DB

18     compiled all the information that had to do with all the tensions, the

19     conflict, and even there was information about the conduct of the

20     Yugoslav People's Army units, what their morale was, and things like

21     that.

22        Q.   So in other words, it's fair to say that you were gathering

23     military information?

24        A.   As I said earlier about the document or the dispatch about the

25     situation, 95 per cent of information in the Krajina at the time referred

Page 17002

 1     to movements of enemy troops in relation to us at the time.  It's war, so

 2     that was a priority above all other priorities.

 3        Q.   I'd now like to turn to your testimony about Captain Dragan.

 4             At transcript page 16711, Judge Orie asked you about what had

 5     been agreed between Milan Martic and the Serb National Council regarding

 6     Captain Dragan's activities.  Part of your answer was as follows:

 7             "Martic said that he had proposed to the Serb National Council,

 8     which agreed, that Captain Dragan should, with regard to the Golubic

 9     centre which had been working from earlier on, August of 1991," which you

10     later corrected to 1990, "put together a serious infantry course.  And my

11     understanding was that this was to be the context of his activities, that

12     he should organise and conduct the training of police personnel."

13             Sir, the reason that police personnel needed what you called a

14     serious infantry course was because they were to be used in combat;

15     correct?

16        A.   At the beginning, as I said, in late August 1990, the camp was

17     established in order to train people as soon as possible for regular

18     police work in areas that were abandoned by the Croats.

19             As the situation in the field developed, meaning when it was

20     already evident that conflict could not be avoided, the Serbian National

21     Council was not sure in the -- about the decisions of the

22     Yugoslav People's Army and they considered that the police should be

23     trained, the active and the reserve police forces, to be able to put up a

24     defence.  In all of that, they were seriously counting on the Golubic

25     centre to train the existing members as well as new recruits who could

Page 17003

 1     join even though there were problems to find them because the JNA reserve

 2     forces mostly had been manned by generally new people who were mobilised.

 3             So this decision was made in 1991, May 1991, when it was more

 4     than clear that there would be clashes.  And at that time it was still

 5     unclear as to what the position and the conduct of the JNA would be in

 6     the event that Croatia should attack Krajina.

 7        Q.   At transcript page 16709, you were discussing Frenki's attitude

 8     towards Captain Dragan.  You said Mr. Simatovic told you to keep an eye

 9     on Captain Dragan's activities.  On the next page you expanded on this

10     answer, saying:

11             "Well, as I said a moment ago, that I should keep an eye on his

12     activities that went outside the scope agreed with the Serb National

13     Council and Milan Martic, i.e., his attempts to head the TO and to become

14     politically engaged in the Krajina.  His frequent tours accompanied by

15     people who came from Serbia, whom he knew nothing of."

16             Just to be clear, Mr. Simatovic never expressed any kind of

17     disapproval of Captain Dragan's activities that had been agreed with

18     Martic and the Serb National Council, that is, the course at Golubic;

19     correct?

20        A.   Mr. Simatovic, at least in this private conversation, was

21     completely against the idea of him coming to the Krajina, so that we did

22     not expand on that.  But I believe that he was against the idea also of

23     him doing what he was doing in Golubic.  He personally told me that he

24     was opposed to that idea of anyone engaging Captain Dragan in the Krajina

25     at all.

Page 17004

 1        Q.   Sir, in your testimony originally, you said that:

 2             "... I should keep an eye on his activities that went outside the

 3     scope agreed with the Serb National Council and Milan Martic."

 4             Why did you go out of your way to specify that that's what

 5     Mr. Simatovic disapproved of, if, as you now say, according to you, he

 6     disapproved of his presence entirely?

 7        A.   Because I assume that Mr. Simatovic could not prevent him, if the

 8     Serbian National Council gave him the mandate to manage the centre and

 9     conduct training for people.  He could just express his personal position

10     in a conversation with me.

11        Q.   At transcript page 16698, you discuss a meeting attended by

12     yourself, Zdravko Zecevic, Milan Martic and Captain Dragan in May 1991.

13     You were asked whether Martic said anything about Captain Dragan and your

14     answer was:

15             "Yes.  He was quite taken by him.  He was full of praise for

16     him."

17             You go on to describe the need for a training course for police.

18     And then a bit farther down you say:

19             "And Martic told Zecevic and myself that Captain Dragan was going

20     to be taking this course, that he was actually going to be organising a

21     course in Golubic."

22             Sir, as far as you could tell, this was a time of close and

23     enthusiastic co-operation between Captain Dragan and Milan Martic;

24     correct?

25        A.   At that point in time, yes, that is correct.

Page 17005

 1        Q.   Sir, I'd now like to ask you about what you say is

 2     Mr. Simatovic's function in the Krajina.  You testified that

 3     Mr. Simatovic told you his purpose there was:

 4             "That he needed intelligence from the Krajina area so that

 5     Belgrade could take a proper attitude, that is to say, the state

 6     leadership of Serbia, and that they could do that in good time."

 7             That's at transcript page 16706 to 16707.

 8             Then you go on to say that you asked him if he could help you

 9     too, specifically:

10             "I asked him to submit information to us in good time, if he

11     could, in case that the political leadership in Belgrade obtained such

12     information.  What we were primarily interested in at the time was a

13     possible Croatian attack on our area."

14             So now you have mentioned Mr. Simatovic taking information from

15     the Krajina to the state leadership of Serbia and Belgrade and bringing

16     information from the political leadership in Belgrade to you in the

17     Krajina.

18             Is it accurate to say that Mr. Simatovic served as a line of

19     communication between the Belgrade authorities and the authorities in the

20     Krajina?

21        A.   I cannot say that since I'm going back to my original position in

22     my statement.  We spoke as one professional to another.  I asked him -- I

23     wasn't asking him to report back to Martic or the Serbian National

24     Council.  I asked him if it was possible if he would let me know in a

25     timely manner, and then I could perhaps take back that information to

Page 17006

 1     Martic.  But this was our communication, where you can see that he was

 2     not directly informing the council or Martic, as I was asking him to do

 3     something like that, to report back to me about it, in particular,

 4     because of the threat directed at the border areas, which is something

 5     that we had talked about earlier.

 6        Q.   You just said:  "I asked him if it was possible if he would let

 7     me know in a timely manner and I could perhaps take back that information

 8     to Martic."

 9             Now Mr. Simatovic, as a DB professional, would have assumed that

10     you were going to do that; correct?

11        A.   I didn't understand this last part of the question.

12        Q.   You indicated that Mr. Simatovic did not, according to you,

13     report directly to Martic, that he gave information for you -- to you.

14     And then you said:

15             "... and I could perhaps take back that information to Martic."

16             As far as you know -- as far as you knew at the time,

17     Mr. Simatovic knew that you would provide any useful information he gave

18     you to Milan Martic and the other Krajina leaders; correct?

19        A.   Well, perhaps he could assume that this would happen, but we did

20     not speak specifically about the pathways of reporting and reporting

21     back.  It was an informal conversation with a man from the service.

22        Q.   Did Mr. Simatovic ever bring you information about the views of

23     Serbian government officials about the future of the RSK?

24        A.   No.  This never happened, unfortunately, because shortly after

25     that, he left.  From the time that we met, we didn't really have the

Page 17007

 1     opportunity to meet often.  Already in early August, he left the RSK.

 2        Q.   You've just indicated that you didn't have the opportunity to

 3     meet often.  Was one of the reasons for that the fact that you were

 4     living and working in Benkovac during the entire time that you know

 5     Mr. Simatovic to have been in the Krajina?

 6        A.   That is correct.  I was living and working in Benkovac at the

 7     time.  Once a week I would come to Knin, or once every ten days, but

 8     there were no pagers or mobile telephones then.  If we encountered each

 9     other, then we would meet.  He didn't go to any place regularly where I

10     would know where to meet him.

11        Q.   At page 16704 of the transcript, you said that you heard that

12     Mr. Simatovic had a conspiratorial apartment.  Did you ever learn where

13     this apartment was located?

14        A.   No, I didn't know where his clandestine apartment was.  Other

15     than that it was in Knin.

16        Q.   And at transcript page 16705, you said of conspiratorial and

17     clandestine apartments in general:

18             "Such an apartment would be rented only in order to hold secret

19     meetings and have secret contacts with the sources and agents to provide

20     secret information when we didn't want anyone to see that we would meet

21     such persons there."

22             Sir, you accept that Mr. Simatovic could have met with people in

23     this apartment without you knowing about it; correct?

24        A.   That is correct.  You are right.

25        Q.   And, in fact, he could have met with people elsewhere in Knin or

Page 17008

 1     elsewhere in the Krajina without you necessarily finding out about it;

 2     correct?  You might have found out; you might not.

 3        A.   That is correct.

 4        Q.   At page 16707, you were talking about your exchange of

 5     information with Mr. Simatovic.  You were asked whether it was usual for

 6     services to exchange information with each other.  And you said:

 7             "Yes.  In principle, that's correct.  But it depends from one

 8     situation to another.  And when I say that, I primarily have in mind the

 9     following.  When we sit down together, we do not exchange everything,

10     each one of us, but we narrow it down to what pertains to the specific

11     interests of each side at that particular moment."

12             You accept that Mr. Simatovic may have known things that he

13     didn't tell you; correct?

14        A.   Yes, it's possible.

15        Q.   And do you also accept that Mr. Simatovic could have gone places

16     or done things in the Krajina that you don't know about?  And, as a

17     concrete example, Mr. Simatovic could have been involved in the training

18     of special units without your knowledge; correct?

19        A.   Well, that is impossible.  It's such a small community,

20     especially if you take part in training of more than 100 people.  Then

21     it's impossible for it to be not known about.  If it is done in the

22     police.

23             As for moving around, the villages are quite small.  All the

24     people are afraid.  If anybody comes from the outside, immediately

25     there's word of that.  Even if a journalist comes, that would go around

Page 17009

 1     and be discovered fairly quickly.

 2             As for him moving in the field, at that point in time, it would

 3     have been very difficult for it to be -- to remain secret.  And this, in

 4     particular, would apply to any kind of training that was being conducted.

 5        Q.   Sir, earlier in your testimony we looked at the SAO Krajina DB

 6     report from June of 1991, which indicated that the SDB was training

 7     strike and sabotage groups.  And I asked you whether it was your position

 8     that the document was incorrect, or whether it was your position that

 9     such units could have existed and you simply didn't know about it.  You

10     allowed for both possibilities.

11             If it's possible that units existed without your knowledge, how

12     can you claim that you necessarily would have known every individual

13     involved in their training?

14        A.   At that time, we didn't refer to Golubic at all.  I don't know if

15     anybody was doing any training anywhere.  I don't really know of any

16     strike and sabotage units, but it's true that no training was conducted

17     for such groups.  The Krajina is small, and it's would easily get around

18     if such groups were there.  And there would be documents and some traces

19     of that.  I didn't know of any such action of any group of that kind that

20     existed in the field.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, translation, page 82,

23     lines 20, the witness mentioned training and something else, which would

24     have to be known.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 17010

 1             You -- on our transcript, we read, Witness, that -- that you

 2     said:

 3             "... but it's true that no training was conducted ..."

 4             Did you refer to anything else than training?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember exactly now

 6     what -- what it's about, whether I mentioned something or not.  I really

 7     cannot remember.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, I leave it to you whether you want to

 9     further pursue the matter.  I don't know how important it is, what is

10     missing, but ...

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's important for

12     understanding and for the further course of the questions.  But I'm not

13     going to be insisting on that right now.  If need be, we can always deal

14     with that section.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr --  Mr. Farr, any objection if Mr. Petrovic

16     would try to refresh the memory of the witness of what he said a minute

17     ago.  We will always -- we'll be able to verify that, so Mr. Petrovic

18     will be very honest in this respect because there's always a possibility

19     to check that.

20             MR. FARR:  No objection, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  What did you hear, Mr. Petrovic, which was not

22     translated?  Training and?

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he talked about

24     activities.  I heard that clearly.  Well, as for whether the witness

25     remembers that or not is something that can easily be checked on the

Page 17011

 1     tape.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, I leave it to you whether you want to give

 3     it any follow-up or whether we leave it to this.

 4             We have three minutes left.  If you have a few questions fine,

 5     but ...

 6             MR. FARR:  I think I can use the time, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. FARR:

 9        Q.   At transcript page 16709, you said that Mr. Simatovic never gave

10     you money, technical assistance, equipment, or instructions.  But he

11     could have given all of those things to Mr. Martic in Knin and you would

12     not necessarily have known about it; correct?

13        A.   Had this happened, Martic would have conveyed that to us, for

14     sure.  Because Martic was not a person prone to keeping such things

15     secret.  He would say it with pride that he received such and such a

16     thing through such and such a person, from Serbia, so it seems pretty

17     implausible that all of this was given to Martic by Simatovic, and not

18     Orlovic or someone else.

19        Q.   And did Martic ever tell that you Mr. Simatovic had provided him

20     with money, weapons, technical assistance or instructions?

21        A.   No.  Martic never told me that.  But I know he didn't like him

22     for some reason.  He couldn't wait for him to go back.  And then when

23     Simatovic went back to Belgrade, Martic was the first to tell me - not

24     just me - but a group of operatives from Benkovac at a meeting that

25     Simatovic had left and that, in his opinion, his stay was not a positive


Page 17012

 1     one.  Precisely that is what he was probably thinking of, that he didn't

 2     give him anything.  Because he -- or that he had perhaps asked for

 3     something from him and didn't get it.  But Martic didn't say that he ever

 4     got anything from Simatovic.

 5             MR. FARR:  It's a good time, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Farr.

 7             Mr. Draca, I'd like to again remind you that you should not speak

 8     or communicate in any other way with anyone about your testimony, whether

 9     given today or last week, or still to be given.  I would like to see you

10     back tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom.

11             You may follow the usher.  Meanwhile --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just ask something, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since there is heavy weather in

15     Serbia, and my parents live outside of Belgrade and have been caked in

16     snow, I am in touch with my wife, and I would very much like to know when

17     my testimony will be over, if you can set a time on that.  I have been

18     here for a full 11 days.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I am aware of that, Mr. Draca, and I do understand

20     your concerns.

21             One hour tomorrow, Mr. Farr?

22             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time for the other parties?

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm convinced that we

25     will finish this witness's testimony tomorrow.  I can't be sure about the

Page 17013

 1     time I'm going to need, but it will definitely not exceed tomorrow's day

 2     of work.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But there are other parties as well.

 4             Mr. Jordash.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  About 35 minutes, please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  35 minutes.

 7             There's a fair chance that we would be able to conclude your

 8     testimony tomorrow, and we will do our utmost best to achieve that, which

 9     would mean then that you would be excused on from quarter to 2.00 in the

10     afternoon.  I fully understand your concerns.

11             Apart from that, I put on the record that this morning I said

12     something about numbers assigned relating to both D683 and P3073.  There

13     may be further inaccuracies in that, and therefore, the Registry will

14     file a memo so that everything will be clear finally.

15             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, the

16     7th of February, at 9.00 in the morning, in this same courtroom --

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, it's the 8th of February.  But the time

19     and the courtroom were indicated correctly, 9.00, Courtroom II.

20                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of

22                           February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.