120306ED

Page 17910

1 to address me.

2 We usually take a break after one hour and 15 minutes. A break

3 will then be half an hour. And then we have two more sessions of 75

4 minutes. Again, divided by a break of half an hour, so that you know,

5 more or less what to expect. But if you need any additional break, don't

6 hesitate to ask for it.

7 You will first be examined by Mr. Petrovic, and Mr. Petrovic is

8 counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

9 Mr. Petrovic, you may proceed.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Examination by Mr. Petrovic:

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation].

13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Djukic.

14 A. Good afternoon.

15 Q. Can you tell us your full name for the record.

16 A. My name is Petar Djukic, nicknamed Pero. Paragraf.

17 Q. Can you give us your date of birth?

18 A. On the 11th of July, 1942, in Cerik Brcko, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. Can you tell us where you've completed your primary and secondary

20 education?

21 A. I completed my primary school in the village of Bosanska Bijela

22 in the municipality of Brcko, and I then proceeded to the faculty which I

23 graduated from in Zagreb.

24 Q. And which university was that?

25 A. It was the study of legal affairs, affairs of state

Page 17911

1 administration.

2 Q. Can we just please make sure that we make a break between

3 question and answer.

4 A. Yes, I will need to adapt to that.

5 Q. Witness, you said that you obtained university degree in Zagreb.

6 Where was that?

7 A. First, I attended a two-year course in administration affairs,

8 and then proceeded to study at the law school in Zagreb.

9 Q. Did you attend any master courses?

10 A. Yes, with the renowned professor, Franjo Bacic. I attended the

11 masters course in criminal law. After I had to leave Zagreb, I applied

12 to defend my masters thesis in Novi Sad. Unfortunately, my duties

13 prevented me from doing so.

14 Q. Sir, where did you first get employment?

15 A. I first got employment as policeman in the village called

16 Drenovci, after I completed the policing school where I was the best in

17 my class.

18 Q. Sir, did you work for a while in Zupanja and, if so, when was

19 that?

20 A. Let me clarify this. Drenovci and Zupanja come under the same

21 secretariat. Drenovci are in a substation. Between 1968 and 1972 I was

22 there, and in Zupanja, charged with crime.

23 Q. It says here that you worked there until 1972. Until which year

24 did you work in Zupanja?

25 A. Until 1972 I was charged with crime. And between 1972 and 1977 I

Page 17912

1 was the commander of the police station in Zupanja.

2 Q. Did there come a time when you were transferred to the Republican

3 Secretariat of the interior in Zagreb?

4 A. Yes. Let me just say that after the post of the commander of

5 police, I was a police officer charged with defence and management of

6 emergency situations. And then I was transferred to the Republican

7 Secretariat of the interior in the sector for operative affairs, and I

8 was occupying the post of inspector for the method of work --

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch what year that

10 was.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the year you are talking about.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1982.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, sir, did you at some point defend a dissertation which

15 granted you the highest post in the Republic of Croatia?

16 A. Yes. In 1987, I defended the dissertation on the topic of the

17 basic policing duties in the service of public security.

18 Before that, I was appointed to the post of the chief of the

19 police of the Socialist Republic of Croatia, and I had roughly 11.000

20 subordinates.

21 Q. Witness, up until here were you employed in the RSUP Croatia?

22 A. Until the 20th of June 1990.

23 Q. Witness, we will skip the war period for now and I'll ask you to

24 tell us if at the end of 1995 you were received any sort of duty from the

25 international community.

Page 17913

1 A. In the month of December, after the signing of the Erdut

2 Agreement on the peaceful reintegration of the district of Eastern

3 Slavonia, Baranja, and Srem based on which Resolution 1037 was adopted by

4 the Security Council of the United Nations, on the order of certain

5 international representatives, I was charged with running the work of

6 interim police forces.

7 Q. Mr. Djukic, were you appointed to some duty on 1st July 1996 and

8 if so by whom?

9 A. After the UNTAES mission was set up, Ambassador Jacques-Paul

10 Klein appointed me to the post of the chief or head of the interim police

11 forces.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, it was announced that some documents

13 would be used with this witness. I really wondered whether there was a

14 dispute about an appointment the 1st of July by Mr. Klein of this witness

15 to a certain task. We even received copies of the documents confirming

16 that. I do not know what the exact relevance for this is apart from that

17 apparently that the international community entrusted some tasks to -- to

18 this witness.

19 Have you discussed with Ms. Marcus whether there is any dispute

20 about appointment, task, and, of course, the next steps will be whether

21 they were happy with what the witness did. Certificates of appreciation.

22 Is there any dispute about that?

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't believe that

24 there is any dispute about that, but I want Their Honours to see it. I

25 want this to be heard, because I would like to pin-point the serious

Page 17914

1 affairs that the witness was charged with. It will only take a couple of

2 minutes, and these are the reasons why I would like to present these

3 issues to you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Why don't you agree on that with the Prosecution?

5 Why do we have to -- I mean, you have seen that important tasks, we

6 received announcement of these documents to be used, so what you want to

7 pin-point at is -- is first something you could have agreed on because

8 this is no dispute about it. Second, you could have -- you could have

9 sought admission through a bar table exercise because it's perfectly

10 clear what these documents say.

11 So if there is anything in addition to that which sheds a

12 different light on it, please proceed. Otherwise, choose one of these

13 avenues to bring it to our attention. You may have noticed that it is

14 already to our attention, by the way, but not yet as evidence.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in that case, if my

16 colleague doesn't object can 2D1211, 2D1212, and 2D1210 be admitted as

17 Defence exhibits.

18 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I have no objection to 2D1210, or

19 2D1212. The 2D1211 is a bit of a curious document. We don't contest the

20 facts as Your Honours has set forth that the witness held this position.

21 But the document is just a bit curious. It's unsigned. The original is

22 in B/C/S rather than in English, so I'm just -- I'm curious about that

23 particular document.

24 But we do not contest the facts as asserted.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 17915

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell us whether we would receive a

3 translation soon from the document which is apparently -- let me just

4 have a look.

5 The unsigned ones seems to be as 462 --

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] 1211, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: That's 1211.

8 Ms. Marcus, the copies we received is with handwriting on the

9 top, 462/96 handwritten. That is the unsigned document. We have

10 translation but no signature.

11 Is that --

12 MS. MARCUS: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- the one you are referring to?

14 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. And it -- if that's -- I'm not

15 sure which one is the original, but assuming it was Jacques Klein who

16 wrote it and it was a UN document, I would think the original is English

17 and the English that I have is a translation of the B/C/S. Neither of

18 them are signed, Your Honour, so ...

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can assist.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please --

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] When he came to The Hague, the

23 witness brought along the Serbian version of the document that he

24 received, as far as I understand, at the time when Jacques Klein gave it

25 to him. The Serbian version is the basic one that we use. The

Page 17916

1 translation is one that we've produced, and I think that the witness can

2 help us. He does have the English version of the document which he

3 hasn't brought along The Hague. But if this is contested and if asked,

4 I'm sure that he will find ways to deliver it to us.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It is it quite possible for

6 me to bring that over.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a -- any signed copy of the letter of

9 the 2nd of June in which reference is made to the appointment on the 1st

10 of July?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the English version back at

12 home. The head of the interim administration was an authority to me. I

13 can't go into how his documents were produced. They never bore a stamp

14 or a seal of any sort, his documents. There was just this designation of

15 the United Nations.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The English copy you have got at home. Is that a

17 signed letter?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I presume so. I can tell you that

19 I received numerous --

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]...

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- citations in writing from

22 Mr. Klein commending me, and believe me when I tell you it's been a long

23 time ago, so I can't remember all the details.

24 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered my question, that you presume that

25 the document at home is signed.

Page 17917

1 Let me just check. 2D1210 and 2D1212 are admitted into evidence

2 and the numbers assigned to these documents, Mr. Registrar, would be.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter document 2D1212 shall be

4 assigned Exhibit D759.

5 And 65 ter document 2D1210 shall be assigned Exhibit D760.

6 Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And they're admitted into evidence under these

8 numbers.

9 Then for 2D1211, Mr. Registrar, which will be marked for

10 identification, what number would be assigned?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D761. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13 Mr. Petrovic, to the extent the witness has a signed version of

14 that letter available, we'll invite him to -- to provide us --

15 Yes, please proceed.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We will

17 follow your instructions, as far as this document is concerned.

18 Q. Now, Witness, sir, I just have one question with regard to your

19 relationship with Mr. Klein.

20 Did Mr. Klein ever offer you a job after the completion of your

21 mission in Eastern Slavonia?

22 A. Well, since it is being questioned here whether I ever was in

23 actual fact the head of the interim police or not, let me just say a few

24 words --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you there. That is not in

Page 17918

1 dispute. It's not challenged. So, therefore, you don't have to worry

2 about that.

3 Did Mr. Klein ever offer you a job, as Mr. Petrovic asked you?

4 A yes or a no simply would do.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he certainly did. And I have

6 to stress that he commended me especially for my great contribution, as

7 did his -- as did Ambassador Walker in January 1998 in Zagreb.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 Mr. Petrovic, to the extent it was your point to establish that

10 the witness was held in high esteem by -- by Mr. Klein and by others,

11 then that point is clear.

12 You may proceed.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Djukic, you said a moment ago that up until 1990, you were

15 employed with the Republic of Croatia SUP. Would you please tell us

16 briefly why you stopped working in the Croatian SUP in June 1990.

17 A. In the Socialist Federal Republic of Croatia after the democratic

18 elections there were fundamental changes in the political order in the

19 state, and I had given my oath to the socialist republic and I was not

20 prepared to defend the political system of any other order.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic. Could you please tell us where you went

22 from Zagreb?

23 A. I want back to Cerik, my birth place, in Brcko municipality

24 because that was the only way out for me.

25 Q. Mr. Djukic, when you arrived in Cerik did you offer your services

Page 17919

1 to any structure or any organisation in that area?

2 A. Since I was 48 years old I was a conscript, according to the Law

3 on The Military Forces, so I reported immediately to the JNA and to the

4 chief of security and intelligence, Mr. Momcilo Petrovic, and I said that

5 I was prepared to offer my services, that I was at his disposal, all in

6 the hope that we would remain within Yugoslavia.

7 Q. Witness, sir, the record does not show which garrison you

8 mentioned so would you please repeat it.

9 A. This was the Brcko garrison. The garrison commander was

10 Colonel Pavle Milinkovic.

11 Q. Sir, Mr. Djukic, you said that you worked with the chief of

12 intelligence, Mr. Petrovic. Could you please tell us what that consisted

13 in, how did you work with him, with Mr. Petrovic, and did you have a

14 code-name at the time?

15 A. As I was still in -- officially I was still assigned to Zagreb

16 and I had not received my papers, my code-name was Magistar, Magistar.

17 Q. Witness, sir, did you work with any other officer -- JNA officer

18 at the time? And if we need to move to private session so that you can

19 tell us his name, would you please just let us know?

20 A. Well, I would appreciate it if we could move to private session

21 for benefit of the person in question.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections against going into private

23 session. Although ...

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The captain who was my

25 connection --

Page 17921

1 A. Well, in the area where I lived, there were 19.7 per cent of

2 Serbs. The ratio in the event of war would be 1 to 5. I was asked to

3 join, which was in accordance with the Communist party, I joined the late

4 Professor Nijaz Durakovic's party in Brcko, the social democrats.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic, for your answers, but would you please

6 just speak a little more slowly so that all that you say can be reflected

7 in the transcript.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could you make a pause

9 between question and answer and answer and question.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Djukic, in Pelagicevo in October 1991, did there come a time

12 when an armed unit arrived there?

13 A. Yes, certainly. The 17th Tactical Group arrived, headed by

14 Colonel Stevan Nikolic [Realtime transcript read in error "Niklovic"],

15 aka Kriger.

16 Q. Can you tell us where the 17th Tactical Group came from?

17 A. It came from Derventa because it was under pressure there from

18 Croatian paramilitary formations, and they tried to avoid young soldiers

19 being killed.

20 Q. Mr. Witness could you please repeat the name of the commander of

21 this 17th Tactical Group because it is not correctly recorded in the

22 transcript.

23 A. Stevan Nikolic, a colonel. His nickname was Kriger because he

24 had a cap that was reminiscent of the cap that was worn by a character

25 from a Belgrade TV series, Otpisani, who was called Kriger.

Page 17922

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic. Tell us, please, in the autumn of 1991

2 and in early 1992, did you know what the intentions of the Croatian side

3 were, both the Croatians in the Republic of Croatia as well as in Bosnia

4 and Herzegovina, as far as some areas in the Sava river valley were

5 concerned?

6 A. Yes, I do know of that because I worked for many years in Zupanja

7 and it bordered on the Sava with Bosnia along a stretch of 108

8 kilometres.

9 The plan of the Croatian forces was to take control of Modrica,

10 Odzak, Samac, Orasje, Brcko, and to cut the corridors so that Knin would

11 remain in the rear supported and that -- that, in fact, so that

12 logistical support could be provided from Knin.

13 Q. Mr. Witness, perhaps because of the speed of your speech not all

14 of the towns that you mentioned were recorded in the transcript.

15 Could you please repeat them? Repeat the towns that you

16 mentioned.

17 A. Derventa, Modrica, Odzak, Bosanski Samac, Orasje, Brcko; in other

18 words, the Bosnian Posavina.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic. Could you tell us how the 17th Tactical

20 Group was reinforced militarily, if you know. And I'm referring to this

21 period, late 1991/early 1992.

22 A. Well, I'm very familiar with that. It was reinforced by

23 conscripts in the early days by the very young ones who had just served

24 in the JNA.

25 Q. Could you tell us which towns those conscripts came from and, if

Page 17923

1 you knew, what ethnicity they were?

2 A. They were from all the Serb villages in Gradacac and Samac

3 municipalities, except in Spijunica and Srnice that were separate. And

4 my village Srnice, which had been surrounded by Bukvik --

5 THE INTERPRETER: And interpreter could not catch the other name.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because they did not have any

7 links with the garrison, but the most prominent villages were Batkusa,

8 Slatina, Krusko Polje, and a series of other villages.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- you really have to slow down because

10 otherwise the interpreters are unable to follow what you say.

11 Could I first seek clarification of the following: Your -- part

12 of your last answer:

13 "... was they were from all the Serb villages in," and what did

14 you then say? "In ... and Samac." What did you first mentioned?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Spijunica, Srnice, Cerik, Plazevac,

16 Porebrice, Pelagicevo, Donji Zabar, Obudovac, Slatina, Batkusa,

17 Krusko Polje, and the town Bosanski Samac itself.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that what is now still missing will

19 be corrected after having heard the audio.

20 Mr. Petrovic, could you please take care that the witness slows

21 down and that breaks are made.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, both, on behalf of

24 the witness and in my own name, I will say that we will do our best to

25 comply with your instructions.

Page 17924

1 Q. Witness, sir, you have just told us what villages the reservists

2 who reinforced the 17th Tactical Group were from. Now could you tell us

3 how these individuals were armed and by whom?

4 A. In the first -- at the first stage, the conscripts were armed

5 only in the border areas that had contact with Croatian and Muslim

6 villages because it was assessed that possible attack would come from

7 there. The arming was done exclusively by the JNA and the weapons used

8 for -- for arming them was the -- were the weapons that were envisaged

9 per establishment within the JNA. Per each ten soldiers there would be

10 one machine-gun, six automatic and three semi-automatic rifles, plus

11 handheld launchers; two hand grenades; bayonets, and so on. If

12 necessary, I can add whatever is necessary.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: If there is any --

14 if anything else was necessary, then it would be added on.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic. Tell us, please, as these reservists, as

17 you told us, were from the villages in the area of Bosanska Posavina, did

18 they go home when -- from those units? Did they go on home on leave from

19 those units and did they take something with them?

20 A. Well, yes, some of those reservists - and I have to stress this -

21 did take these weapons to their homes, and in the first phase only night

22 patrols were established within villages. They started doing that. And

23 they were -- they were trying to be as discreet as possible so that they

24 would not upset or, rather, bring some restlessness among the other --

25 the non-Serb population. Although most of them -- most of the population

Page 17925

1 was Serb.

2 Q. Mr. Witness, the reservists who went home on leave, did they

3 organise themselves once they got back to their villages?

4 A. Well, I will repeat again, this was the case only in the border

5 areas of the 17th Tactical Group area of responsibility. Only small

6 units were established; in other words, platoons of up to 30 men.

7 Q. Can you tell us who commanded these platoons that were being

8 established within these villages?

9 A. They were under the command of reserve commissioned and

10 non-commissioned officers of the JNA, ones that would normally reside in

11 their homes until they were activated, although not yet mobilised.

12 Q. Mr. Djukic, you mentioned the weapons that the reservists had.

13 Can you tell us what was the weaponry at the disposal of the

14 17th Tactical Group, if you know, in the period we are discussing, end of

15 1991 and early 1992?

16 A. Of course I know. The 17th Tactical Group had Howitzers of 155

17 millimetres, tanks T-34, the Pragas, armoured combat vehicles and a

18 number of mortars, 82 and 60 millimetres. In addition to that they had

19 anti-tank assets, Zoljas and Osas, hand-held rocket-launchers.

20 Q. Witness, sir, do you know within which larger organism was the

21 17th Tactical Group?

22 A. Until the month of May, they were under the Tuzla Corps under the

23 command of Sava Ivanovic.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter isn't sure about the last name.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the name of the commander. Sava,

Page 17926

1 and then?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jankovic. I apologise. I have a

3 bit of a sore throat.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Djukic, you can help yourself to some water.

6 Mr. Djukic, did there come a time when you came in touch with

7 Colonel Nikolic, the commander of the 17th Tactical Group?

8 A. Yes. From the day he assumed his position, I was at his disposal

9 at all times. I help him to familiarise himself with the area, the

10 population, the demographics, and the other basic information. For

11 instance, the experience that the local population brought over from the

12 previous war which was that they would not agree to leaving their local

13 areas to fight elsewhere.

14 Q. Did you make any assessments for him, for Mr. Nikolic?

15 A. Yes, of course. I worked with his officers. I cannot say their

16 worked or produced anything for them, other than providing them with

17 information.

18 Q. Mr. Djukic, do you know if, during the fighting in the Republic

19 of Croatia, there was a plane that was shot down somewhere in the area of

20 Samac?

21 A. In Slavonski Brod, which is on the other bank of the Sava river

22 across from Bosanski Samac, a plane was shot down. The pilot ejected

23 himself and the plane crashed in a village there in Croatia. The pilot

24 was saved and with the assistance of the former members of the State

25 Security Service, Simo Zaric, they went to the command of the air force

Page 17927

1 in Belgrade. They brought the pilot back. And as a reward, the peasant

2 who was there and saved the pilot was given a uniform.

3 Q. You mentioned that Simo Zaric was a member of the State Security

4 Service. Can you tell us which service was that?

5 A. The State Security Service of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was the

6 head of the forward outpost of that service in Modrica.

7 Q. You told us that Simo Zaric interceded in this affair where the

8 pilot was taken back to the command of the air force in Belgrade.

9 Did Zaric come into contact with anyone on that occasion?

10 A. Yes, I know about that. For a great many years I was in contact

11 with Zaric both privately and professionally. He got to know certain

12 generals and commanders who were members of the air force.

13 Q. If you can recall, can you give us any names of the generals that

14 Simo Zaric got in touch with?

15 A. It was Bajic, who was the -- the right wing of the partisan

16 football club.

17 Q. Mr. Djukic, is that the way you remember that last name or was it

18 a footballer, really?

19 A. Well, I remembered him by the family name of Bajic because I knew

20 a footballer and I was a passionate supporter myself.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness.

22 Can you tell us what happened on the 16th of January, 1992; if

23 you know?

24 A. On the 16th of January, 1992, mobilisation was conducted,

25 although it was not part of a general call for mobilisation. I know

Page 17928

1 that - I insisted myself, I had two sons, although they were still

2 minors - that conscripts should have a stamp placed in their military

3 booklets because that would mean that they were in a war and be entitled

4 to certain rights arising from their participation in the war. I was

5 aware of that because I had to deal with some very complex situations

6 while I was one of -- of the leaders of the police force.

7 Q. Witness, therefore, what was it that was entered into the

8 military records of all the conscripts in Bosnian Posavina on that

9 particular date?

10 A. Well, there was just a seal and a date affixed to one of the

11 columns there. There was still not a war going on there. The war in

12 Posavina broke out at a later date.

13 Q. Mr. Djukic, was it about this time that larger units were being

14 formed in the area of the 17th Tactical Group; if you know?

15 A. Yes, of course. Military detachments were being formed, and they

16 were strictly units of the JNA. Battalions -- or, rather, detachments

17 were formed.

18 Q. Can you tell us how many of these detachments were there?

19 A. If I recall, initially four of them. The first one was in

20 Obudovac, the second in Kruskovo Polje, the third in Pelagicevo, the

21 fourth in Bosanski Samac. And that was the one that was most prominently

22 Yugoslav by its composition because roughly one-third of the detachment

23 was composed of members of other ethnicities.

24 Q. You mentioned the 1st Detachment --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.

Page 17929

1 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. I'd like to just note for the

2 record I found this 65 ter summary to be very difficult to understand and

3 difficult to prepare on. And I'd like note that for the past ten

4 pages -- I think now we are getting into an area which seems to fall into

5 the 65 ter summary, but for the past ten page there was literally no

6 notice other than in May 1991 the witness left Zagreb and served as a JNA

7 reserve officer in the Brcko garrison. We had absolutely no information

8 about anything that's been led in the past ten pages.

9 I'd like to just put that on the record.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, any response to that or would you

11 agree with Ms. Marcus?

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due respect,

13 I disagree.

14 The summary stated that the witness would speak to the events in

15 Bosanski Samac in the run-up to the takeover, as well as about all the

16 other events at around this time. And all these issues we have been

17 discussing in the past couple of pages were the circumstances surrounding

18 the takeover of power of Samac in 1992, and this is merely an

19 introduction into these events. That's how I see it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the position of both parties is hereby on the

21 record.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Witness, sir, you mentioned the 1st Detachment. Can you tell us

25 what was the area of responsibility of the 1st Detachment?

Page 17930

1 A. Obudovac, Batkusa, and some other small hamlets. There would be

2 a great many if I were to list them here. And they ran along a stretch

3 that had on its opposite side the Croatian forces that had already been

4 equipped an armed.

5 Q. Thank you. Do you know who Andjelko Maslic is?

6 A. I know the gentleman very well, Andjelko Maslic. He was the

7 deputy president of the Presidency of the SFRY, and intellectual who

8 hailed from Bosanski Samac who helped right the books entitled ...

9 Q. Can you just tell us if you know him and, if so, what was the

10 position he occupied in the period we're discussing.

11 A. I know him back from the time when I was -- when he was the

12 secretary of the Presidency of the SFRY. As Yugoslavia broke up, he was

13 retired and he hails from Bosanski Samac.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic. Do you know if Mr. Maslic helped

15 establish contacts with certain military structures in this period of

16 time?

17 A. Of course he did. He was in touch with a pensioned general,

18 Pekic, who hailed from Kordun in Croatia. Together with him he provided

19 the necessary assistance and advice, insisting with the competent

20 institutions that the Serbian people in Posavina be protected.

21 Q. Witness, do you know who Blagoje Simic is; and if so what is the

22 position that the person occupied in early 1992?

23 A. I know Blagoje Simic from before. I met with him repeatedly in

24 1991. He was the president of the Serbian Democratic Party. He was the

25 chairman of the Bosanski Samac regional board, as well as for the board

Page 17931

1 of Doboj. This is something that you didn't ask me about. Because I

2 joined the multi-ethnic social democrats, I had many problems that I

3 experienced from the SDS.

4 Q. Mr. Djukic, do you know in the spring of 1992, what was the

5 relationship between Blagoje Simic and the leadership of the SDS?

6 A. He was one of the most trusted men among -- for the president of

7 the SDS, Mr. Radoslav Karadzic -- Radovan Karadzic.

8 Q. Can you tell us in a sentence what was the security situation

9 like in 1992 in Posavina?

10 A. Catastrophic, in a word. And I could use up another hundred to

11 describe what it was like.

12 Q. Can you tell us exactly where the village of Sijekovac is

13 located; and did something important happen there in the spring of 1992?

14 A. I think it was the 23rd of March that the regular Croatian forces

15 entered Sijekovac collecting crimes on a mass scale. Several days later

16 they captured Derventa.

17 Q. You say that they were Croatian forces. Where did they come

18 from; if you know?

19 A. Well, I did say earlier on that the Sava divides Slavonski Brod

20 and Bosanski Brod. They came from the direction of Bosanski Brod, and I

21 don't know which parts of Croatia these forces had originally come from.

22 I don't have that sort of information.

23 Q. Witness, what was the situation like in Bosanski Samac proper, in

24 the spring of 1992?

25 A. Bosanski Samac was inhabited by representatives of three

Page 17932

1 ethnicities. The president of the executive committee was one Jovanovic.

2 The vice-president was Izet Izetbegovic. And the coalition of the

3 Muslims and Croats was the dominant one. Otherwise, demographically, the

4 Muslims were the most numerous in the area, and the Serbs were next.

5 Q. Mr. Djukic, was there a staff established of the Muslim forces or

6 the Muslim people in Bosanski Samac in the spring of 1992?

7 A. On the 12th or the 13th of April, Alija Izetbegovic established a

8 TO War Staff that was composed solely of the Muslims and Croats. There

9 wasn't a single Serb in there.

10 Q. Can you repeat the date, please. It's not recorded properly.

11 A. It was the 12th or the 13th of April, 1992.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I think this is the time for our

14 first break today.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break. And we resume at 4.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for the late start. There was an urgent

19 matter which needed my attention which prevented me from returning in

20 time.

21 Mr. Petrovic.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Q. Mr. Djukic, before the break you mentioned the TO staff, the war

24 TO staff, that was -- that comprised Croats and Muslims alone. Could you

25 tell us who was at the head of that war-time staff?

Page 17937

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina. How do you know that?

2 A. Well, I have to explain first that I received certain tasks from

3 the security and intelligence organ, the corps security and intelligence

4 organ, and that I had a very high duty in the main security and

5 intelligence organ in the Army of Republika Srpska. So some of the

6 information comes from intercepts, some from direct knowledge, some from

7 citizen complaints, to the effect that police officers would just observe

8 how weapons were being transported by members of Croat or Muslim

9 ethnicity onto trucks with Croatian or Slovene registration plates.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic.

11 You mentioned the way that these -- this materiel was obtained.

12 Now, can you tell us whether you know if any individuals were in charge

13 of transferring materiel and technical equipment for the SDA and the

14 war-time staff that you spoke about a little earlier?

15 A. The village Prut and all the other villages - and I don't want to

16 waste this Chamber's precious time - but all the villages between Samac

17 and Orasje were Croatian, so there was no way of checking the transport

18 of weapons by individuals across the Sava from Croatia into the Croatian

19 villages in Bosnia where they established some military units and combat

20 groups.

21 Q. Mr. Witness, you said that you knew about the existence of this

22 war-time staff. Now, do you know whether any unit was established by the

23 SDA in Bosanski Samac in the spring of 1992?

24 A. I don't know anything about that.

25 Q. Witness, sir, please tell us who was at the head of the public

Page 17938

1 security station in Bosanski Samac in April 1992?

2 A. It was Vinko Dragicevic. He was a representative of the Croatian

3 side because this was a Muslim/Croat/Serb coalition at the time.

4 Dragan Lukac was the chief of the crime police. Stoko Sekulic was the

5 commander of the public security station, and they were there as

6 representatives of the Serb side.

7 Q. Witness, sir, what was the position of the Serbian Democratic

8 Party in Bosanski Samac? What was their position on the work of the

9 public security station in Bosanski Samac?

10 A. Well, the position of the SDS and the Serb population was the

11 following. Irrespective of the composition and what ethnicity the

12 members were, the public security station was not capable of protecting

13 all the vital aspects and security of people and security of their

14 property.

15 Q. Witness, sir, do you know whether the -- the SDA organised a

16 citizen group that was supposed to defend the town of Bosanski Samac?

17 A. Well, it was only established later on when we came across some

18 lists, a certain Atizovic or Elezovic went through Samac and the

19 surrounding villages with the so-called Liljani, a small unit, which was

20 called Liljani because it had the patch of the Muslim side -- of the

21 Muslim party at the time which is now renamed into Bosnia party, and they

22 were Lilies.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have the

24 witness shown 65 ter 3751 from the Prosecution list.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, could I invite you again to give a

Page 17939

1 good example to the witness how to make a pause between the one speaking

2 person and the other speaking person.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best, Your Honour.

4 Thank you.

5 Q. Witness, sir, this is a document that was produced by the TO

6 Staff of Bosanski Samac. And I would like to refer you to -- this

7 document is dated the 13th of April, 1992.

8 Now I would like to show you the second page. Page 2. If you

9 recall, we showed you this document during the proofing. This is a list

10 of six pages containing the names of 212 individuals. Did you have

11 occasion to see this document earlier; or, in other words, did we show

12 you this document during proofing?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Judging by the names that appear on the list, could you tell us

15 what ethnicity the individuals whose names appear on this list of

16 self-organised citizens of Bosanski Samac are, the list that was compiled

17 on the 13th of April, 1992?

18 A. Well, again, as I said, at the head of all of this was

19 Sulejman Tihic. He was the leader. And we can see his name appearing on

20 top -- on the top. And then following his name are Bosnian names, all of

21 them.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we would like to

24 tender this document as a Defence exhibit.

25 MS. MARCUS: No objection. Except it seems that the translation

Page 17940

1 is missing a couple of pages. But, obviously, there's no objection.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll ...

3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, part of the evidence is that all the

5 names are Muslim names. And, under those circumstances, I think,

6 Ms. Marcus, that to have the original names would be good enough, or do

7 you insist on having them transcribed, I would say, rather than

8 translated; although, there is, of course -- now and then there is some

9 explanation, apparently units to which they belong or perhaps addresses.

10 Until now, there's only about names.

11 Do you insist on having it completed?

12 MS. MARCUS: If Your Honours are satisfied with that, I agree

13 with that. Of course, the descriptions, as you say, Your Honour, are not

14 translated but the names are.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now. There is one other -- yes. That is, one

16 name is -- is -- is -- are all the pages missing with names in

17 translation? All of them are missing.

18 Then, Mr. Petrovic, at least the title above the list of names

19 should be translated. Therefore --

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- there's no need to have all the names translated,

22 or at least if no further evidence will be elicited on this matter. But

23 at least the -- the title above the first name on the list should be

24 translated, so we will mark it for identification. The original is then

25 many, many pages, and the English will then be two pages when you have

Page 17941

1 completed that job.

2 Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

3 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter document 3751 shall be assigned Exhibit

4 D762, marked for identification.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And keeps that status until

6 [Overlapping speakers]...

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We will

8 do as ordered by you.

9 Q. Witness, we spoke of the public security station in Bosanski

10 Samac and its activities. You told us what the position of the SDS was

11 in respect of that station in April of 1992.

12 Was it the case that the SDS took a decision of some sort in

13 April of 1992 with regard to the running of the Samac public -- public

14 security station?

15 A. Let me just add that it wasn't just the SDS that was dissatisfied

16 with their work. It was the citizens themselves as well. It was decided

17 that a more efficient and improved service should be set up, both in

18 terms of operations and the provision of services.

19 Q. Witness, did you participate in a meeting which discussed the

20 ways and means of organising the work of the Samac public security

21 station?

22 A. I did say that I did not enjoy credibility with the SDS. It was

23 through Petar Stevic and Lazo Mrkic, both of whom were friends of mine,

24 and Stevic was also a member of the service, we were told that in the

25 building of Agroposavina on the 12th of April, I should help build up an

Page 17942

1 organisation equipped with all the required materiel and assets that a

2 public security station should have.

3 Q. Mr. Djukic, can you tell us who referred you to that meeting?

4 A. Nobody did. I went to that meeting as a person who was familiar

5 with the way a public security station should be organised and run.

6 Admittedly, I did tell Commander Nikolic that I would attend the meeting.

7 He told me, I will not interfere with the business of the police and the

8 civilian authorities.

9 Q. Did there come a time when you learnt that certain volunteers had

10 arrived in Bosanski Samac?

11 A. Yes. In fact, it was at this very meeting that I learnt it.

12 Stevan Todorovic, also known as Steve, and I would style him the

13 monstrum, or the monster. We heard that he had 20 man who landed in the

14 village of Batkusa by helicopter in the area of responsibility of the

15 1st Detachment.

16 Q. Can you tell us whose helicopter it was that these people

17 disembarked from in the village of Batkusa?

18 A. I can't. Had I seen the helicopter, I would have been able to

19 tell you. I can only tell you that that sort of helicopter that could

20 carry as men was in the possession of only the JNA. I think it was the

21 Knin Corps which, at the time, was still headed by General - perhaps

22 Colonel - Mladic.

23 Q. Did you learn under whose command it was that this group of

24 volunteers came, if they came under any command upon their arrival in

25 Batkusa?

Page 17943

1 A. The arrival of this group of volunteers did cause some discomfort

2 to the town itself, an uneasiness and reservation on the part of the

3 inhabitants because Obudovac, Donji Zabari, and Pelagicevo had many

4 capable trained young money who had done their military service.

5 Therefore, Commander Stevan Nikolic was asked to account for the presence

6 of these volunteers and to say who it was who needed them in the area.

7 Q. Can you tell us, did Stevan Nikolic give any sort of explanation

8 and did you learn under whose command they were?

9 A. Stevan Nikolic asked to be given a day or two until such time as

10 his officers would get in touch with them in person to find out who they

11 were and who they would be working for, if they were there to chase

12 individuals away from the area, or to protect the area, or something

13 quite different.

14 Q. Two or three days later, what was the conclusion that the

15 officers of Stevan Nikolic arrived at?

16 A. Well, these individuals, conscripts, volunteers - what should I

17 call them? - all agreed that they would voluntarily join the JNA and be

18 resubordinated to the detachments under the 17th Tactical Group. They

19 also agreed that they would perform the tasks given conscientiously.

20 Some joined the 1st Detachment, others the 2nd, depending on their

21 personal abilities, earlier experience, and skills.

22 Q. Mr. Djukic, who it was who took over the public security station

23 in Samac, and when?

24 A. But of course. That was the day of the Bosanski Samac

25 municipality. In the night between the 16th and the 17th of April, it

Page 17944

1 was Todorovic who took over; Stevo Todorovic, also known as Steve.

2 He organised matters the way that I had envisaged, at least in

3 terms of numbers. Stevic was the one who made the organigram, and he

4 said that all those who accepted the SDS would be on the police force.

5 He even said that, in that case, I would not be allowed on because I did

6 not support the SDS. But I wasn't interested in that to begin with.

7 Q. Witness, sir, what sort of steps did Colonel Nikolic take that

8 night between the 16th and the 17th of April?

9 A. Well, there were different accounts, including those from the

10 JNA, as to what was happening in the station that night. In my personal

11 view, based on my experience, it was a tactical measure, an extensive

12 raid with a view to seizing weapons from citizens who had great amounts

13 of both military and hunting weapons in their possession.

14 Colonel Nikolic was not kept abreast of these things. However,

15 when he got word of it on the morning of the 17th, he called into --

16 in -- into the centre two armoured vehicles to come in as a show of

17 force. He ordered the command of the detachment that they should come

18 out to the Bosna river-bank right away since the Croatian village of Prut

19 was already organised, under arms, and did not recognise the authorities

20 in Samac. They were linked in terms of organisation and territory to the

21 municipality of Odzak. On the other hand, the partially damaged bridge

22 across the Sava allowed the Croats to carry out an incursion into

23 Bosanski Samac.

24 Q. Witness, can we look at D18, please.

25 Witness, this is a report sent to the General Staff of the SFRY

Page 17945

1 armed forces on the 17th of April.

2 It was sent out from the command of the 2nd Military District.

3 It is a report relating to the events in Samac.

4 In the middle of the page it reads:

5 "The activities with a view to seizing the vital institutions,

6 they were carried out with the participation of the forces of the

7 Tactical Group 17, units of the Serbian Territorial Defence, and the

8 police."

9 Can you tell us what sort of the police force is referred to

10 here?

11 A. Well, the active police force of the public security station in

12 Bosanski Samac. Quite understandably, there was the participation of the

13 17th Tactical Group as well because there was a detachment of 55 men

14 within it.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness. You mentioned the 4th Detachment, which

16 included Simo Zaric, among others. Do you know if there were members of

17 other ethnicities in that detachment, in addition to the Serbs?

18 A. In the leadership of the staff itself, there were two Muslims and

19 one Croat. There were the brothers Topcagic and one Vukovic. Now the

20 unit, there were admittedly only a handful of Croats but there were

21 around 100 Muslims.

22 Q. Witness, do you know these individuals who were members of the

23 4th Detachment? How were they characterised by the War Staff of the SDA

24 and the SDA itself in Bosanski Samac?

25 A. They were labelled as national traitors. They were suspected of

Page 17946

1 preparing an attack on Bosanski Samac. I'm sorry if I have to expand on

2 this, but we had a number of intercepts, and we received information from

3 General Kukanjac to the effect that occupation was being prepared, and

4 Kukanjac said that this was the only useful and helpful thing he did in

5 his life.

6 Now, for these individuals, they were called either ethnic or

7 national traitors; something to that effect.

8 Q. Please look at P219.

9 It is a proclamation entitled: "The List of Local Traitors" or

10 "Domestic Traitors." The first one on the list is Fadil Topcagic. Do

11 you know him?

12 A. Yes, of course. He was one of the finest explosive specialists.

13 And --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the last part of

15 his answer.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was one of the leaders of the

17 detachment, an assistant.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- part of your last answer was not

19 understood by the interpreters.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Something was ordered but then it --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

22 JUDGE ORIE: One second.

23 THE INTERPRETER: -- it was given up on as an idea.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please resume. You said when asked about

25 Fadil:

Page 17947

1 "Yes, of course. He was one of the finest explosive specialists

2 and ..."

3 Could you repeat what you then said?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later on, we were in a position to

5 work on a mission together but the command decided that we should abort

6 the mission. I had high regard for him as an excellent officer, and I

7 said that he was Commander Antic's assistant.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness --

11 MR. JORDASH: May Mr. Stanisic be excused for the moment.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And we continue meanwhile.

15 Yes, please proceed.

16 [The accused Stanisic withdrew]

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, you mentioned an intercept involving Kukanjac. What

19 were the contents of the intercept and how did you come by it?

20 A. It was a dispatch, a document that I didn't receive. It was

21 encoded and then decoded in the command of Commander Nikolic, and he

22 shared this information with his officers, including myself.

23 Q. Could you kindly tell us what the dispatch said, the one that

24 Nikolic told you about and that he had received from General Kukanjac?

25 A. There was severe criticism there, that there was poor -- that the

Page 17948

1 defence of Samac was poorly organised, that the Croatian forces were

2 preparing themselves, and that we should expect them to seize the area

3 and commit massacre against the people. And he judged that the 17th

4 Tactical Group was incapable of the job, of doing the job.

5 Q. Witness, you said that the volunteers who had arrived Batkusa

6 placed themselves under the command of the 1st Detachment and in parts of

7 the 2nd Detachment of the 17th Tactical Group. Do you know if at some

8 point an attack was planned and carried out against Modrica?

9 A. It was the 17th Tactical Group that mounted an attack on Modrica.

10 As an officer for intelligence and security, I was not duty-bound to

11 participate in combat, nor did I want to. There was an order to that

12 effect, the area was successfully captured, and the tactical group moved

13 into this ethnically mixed town of Modrica as well as into certain

14 villages.

15 I don't know who ordered - it was the superior command, at any

16 rate - that the units of the tactical group should withdraw so that the

17 Serbian forces had to recapture the area, that's to say, Modrica, again.

18 And as the tactical group first moved in, it didn't come across any

19 significant resistance.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Can Mr. Petrovic please repeat the number of

21 the document.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the number of the document,

23 Mr. Petrovic.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. P1413.

25 Q. Witness, have a look at the first paragraph, please.

Page 17949

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown page 1 of

2 the document, please.

3 Thank you.

4 Can the witness look at the first paragraph of the document.

5 Q. Can you tell us, based on the localities mentioned here - if you

6 know them, of course - if this has to do with the first or some other

7 attack on Modrica? And look at the date. It's the 7th of May, 1992.

8 Just a moment, please.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can this please be enlarged for

10 the witness so that he can read the text.

11 Q. Do you want me to read it for you?

12 A. Yes, please.

13 Q. This is a document from the command of the 17th Tactical Group

14 dated the 7th of May, 1992, in Pelagicevo, to Lugar command. An order

15 for an attack. And it says: "I have decided ..."

16 Under 1:

17 "In order to create favourable conditions for Modrica units, to

18 enable them to continue their combat and capture the town of Modrica,

19 link up with the units of the 17th Tactical Group that had been cut off

20 in the area of the villages of Donji Skugric and Tolisa, carry out an

21 all-out attack along the axis of Milosevac village-Garevac

22 village-Modrica and Kornica village-Cardak village-Pustara, agricultural

23 combine -- or agricultural co-operative."

24 Could you tell us which Modrica attack does this refer to? You

25 mentioned some.

Page 17950

1 A. Well, obviously this is the first attack on Modrica.

2 Stevan Nikolic, on orders from the General Staff, left Posavina on 19th

3 of May. Therefore, the second attack and the takeover of Modrica was

4 carried out by the newly established units of the VRS after his

5 withdrawal from Bosnia.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: After the JNA

7 withdrew from Bosnia.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Witness, under number 2 we see that there are tasks assigned

10 to the units and it says that the north column composed of the Lugar

11 Group; the central column, under 2, Column Commander Captain Grbic; and

12 under 3, the southern column --

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Which, Your Honours, is on the

14 next page in English.

15 Q. The column commander is Crni.

16 Now, looking at this, do you know -- these columns that are

17 mentioned in this order, what -- which group did they belong to?

18 A. Well, they were part of the 17th Tactical Group, but I can't tell

19 you exactly by platoon or detachment who belonged to what or where. But

20 I can just tell that you these are volunteers, Lugar and Djordjevic,

21 whereas in the central part, that person there is an active-duty officer.

22 Q. When you say in the central part, whom are you referring to? Do

23 you mean the second column?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness, sir.

Page 17951

1 Witness, sir, you mentioned that at the meeting in Agroposavina,

2 you learned of the arrival of these volunteers. Can you tell us, do you

3 know whether there was any clash between Simo Zaric and Colonel Nikolic

4 because of these volunteers who had arrived in Batkusa area?

5 A. Well, I couldn't really accept that. You can't say that there

6 can be a conflict between a colonel and a sergeant. There can be a

7 dialogue, a lot polemics. Simo considered the volunteers would --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the witness.

9 A. -- members of the platoon who are not Serbs. Although there were

10 other reasons too, Simo was very ambitious and he would probably be

11 satisfied --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask you -- first of all, again,

13 that you would slow down. But to resume your previous answer, you said.

14 "Well, I couldn't really accept that. You can't say there could

15 be a conflict between a colonel and ..."

16 Could you resume your answer from there, because the interpreters

17 could not understand you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise yet again.

19 There were debates and there was protest by Simo Zaric. He told

20 Nikolic that Posavina had a sufficient number of young, brave, and

21 capable men, that they did not need volunteers because members of his

22 detachment who were Muslims or Croats would leave the detachment and the

23 detachment would no longer be multi-ethnic.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, sir, could you tell us what Nikolic replied when he

Page 17952

1 complained in this manner?

2 A. Well, Nikolic said that on the 28th of February, Croatian

3 paramilitary units crossed over into Bosanski Brod, that the Croatian

4 villages were full of combat groups, that there was some person there who

5 was bringing in Liljani into Bosanski Samac, that he was disturbed by 20

6 Serbs from Serbia, that the government of Serbia, in a decree of 1992,

7 proclaimed that volunteers could report to fight.

8 [The accused Stanisic entered court]

9 Q. Mr. Witness, could you tell us whether at some point you met a

10 person called Srecko Radovanovic, aka Debeli?

11 A. Yes. I met that person. A Chetnik duke.

12 Q. Can you tell us where you met him and under what circumstances?

13 A. I met him in Obudovac village, where my mother came from, and I

14 had a friend there, Niko Bojic, who sold petrol products. He told me, he

15 bragged that a very capable officer had come, and he took me to a room

16 which was the headquarters of the 1st Battalion.

17 I was introduced to that person. He showed [realtime transcript

18 read in error "told"] me a Chetnik booklet number 2. He asked me whether

19 I knew who had -- who was the owner of the Chetnik booklet number 1, and

20 I said I didn't, and it wasn't my flavour, as it were, that these people

21 had been conquered, and if we do have to fight, then we should keep the

22 profile of Serb officers.

23 Q. Did he tell you who was the bearer of that Chetnik booklet,

24 booklet number 1?

25 A. Certainly. He said it was Duke Seselj. And in view of my

Page 17953

1 position and my ideology and everything I knew from 1978 and onwards, he

2 was one of the leading enemies of the Socialist Federal Republic of

3 Yugoslavia.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, on page 48,

5 line 16 of the transcript, it says, "He told me," and I believe it should

6 read, "He showed me."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, Mr. Petrovic, as always we do not fill in

8 what it should be but we could verify whether "he told me" is right.

9 You told us about Niko Bojic who sold petrol products. And then

10 what did you then say? It now reads: "He told me, I bragged that a very

11 capable officer had come and he took me to a room which was the

12 headquarters of the 1st Battalion."

13 The part which reads, "He told me," is that accurate or is that a

14 mistake?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just clarify it.

16 Yes, he had a petrol station. He was the owner of a petrol

17 station. He did not deal in petrol products illegally. He was an

18 acquaintance and he worked in Zupanja.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I was not asking you to further explain to us but

20 just whether the words which we find on our transcript, "He told me,"

21 whether that's perhaps wrong and should be something else.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He told me that a very

23 capable officer had arrived in Obudovac and that he wanted to introduce

24 me to him.

25 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.

Page 17954

1 I had a wrong line, as a matter of fact, where I sought the

2 clarification.

3 Did he tell you about the Chetnik booklet number 2 or did he show

4 that to you?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He showed it to me.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 Mr. Petrovic, I made a mistake. You referred me to line 16,

8 whereas I started reading at line 13 where the words "he told me" also

9 appear, but I didn't listen well enough to you.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Witness, sir, in addition to this one meeting at your friend's

13 place in Obudovac, did you have any other occasion to talk to Srecko

14 Radovanovic aka Debeli?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Could you tell us when and in what circumstances?

17 A. After Colonel Nikolic left the area, because my elder son had

18 been injured, my younger son was still there, and my wife was a refugee,

19 I myself tried to leave Posavina. In the meantime, the new commander of

20 the Tactical Group - at that time already a brigade - was appointed,

21 Lieutenant-Colonel Djordjevic, who was a local man, and his successor

22 Dragan Djordjevic, Crni; whereas, Srecko was appointed chief. I told him

23 how threatened my village was. It was -- we were expecting to be

24 attacked, and the structure of our fighting force was very bad. There

25 were men between 70 -- to 70 years old. I asked him to provide some

Page 17955

1 reinforcement and I proposed an operation, that we should try and cut off

2 a -- an operation -- or, rather, an action by the Croatian side --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat the

4 last portion of his answer.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last portion of your answer.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To cut off the communication

7 between the Bosanska, Bijelo, and Dubrava villages, the road, which was

8 used by forces that intended to take up positions, Croatian and Muslim

9 forces.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I proceed?

11 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] Yes, please do so.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Q. Witness, the meeting you had with Radovanovic, do you remember

14 what was said? What did he say? What did you say to him? Can you

15 recall thank conversation?

16 A. Yes, I can. I can recall the conversation.

17 He said that they had to fight really hard to be appointed to

18 those duties, that they were the first people - members of the brigade -

19 who had not graduated from the Military Academy of the Yugoslav army. He

20 told me that it was a great pity that I was on the wrong side, that I was

21 not a member of the SDS. And only after I explained to him who I was and

22 that I had passed with my units without any losses, he told me that he

23 had been a police non-commissioned officer, that he was dismissed from

24 the police, that he had a very negative view of us, people who still

25 supported Tito's ideology, Milosevic's ideology, and that of the

Page 17956

1 Communist party of Yugoslavia. And he asked me once again to try and

2 change my position. And he even said that if I were to join this radical

3 party that I might even be conferred a rank there.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, line -- page 51,

5 line 16, a party is mentioned there which is -- which was incorrectly

6 interpreted. So I propose that we ask the witness to clarify.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, sir, Radovanovic told you that you took the wrong side,

10 that you weren't a member of what party?

11 A. The Serbian Radical Party, which had a Chetnik wing, a military

12 arm, as it were.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness. During these encounters of yours, did Srecko

14 Radovanovic, Debeli, mention that he had certain links with the state

15 security service of the Republic of Serbia?

16 A. Quite the contrary. He said that he was abhorred by the likes of

17 me and others who refused to accept the ideas promoted by Seselj.

18 Q. Witness, sir, you mentioned an individual by the name of Crni,

19 Dragoljub Djordjevic, Crni. Can you tell us did you have occasion to

20 meet with him?

21 A. Yes. I knew of him as Dragan. This is the first time I hear of

22 him as Dragoljub. If that is the individual from Vranje, the same Crni,

23 then that is him. He was present in Donji Zabari at that meeting where

24 we were putting together the organisation and the staffing table and the

25 wherewithal for the public security station in Bosanski Samac.

Page 17957

1 Q. Witness, were you able to find out the political affiliation of

2 this person, Crni, Dragan Djordjevic?

3 A. Well, I heard that the SDS organisation in Pelagicevo was far

4 more progressive and organised than the one in Samac. They were in touch

5 with certain structures asking that I become the commander of the defence

6 of Posavina, something that I would never agree to. I do have special

7 knowledge of certain issues but not the skill of commanding a large body

8 of men. So Djordjevic would be showing the membership card of the

9 Serbian Radical Party when dealing with the local population.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I again ask you, pauses between question and

11 answer, and answer and question, and a slower speed of speech.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours.

13 Q. Witness, did you yourself have an opportunity to speak with

14 Djordjevic, aka Crni, about his political affiliation?

15 A. Well, you asked me to give you brief answers. Let me say that

16 when I came to see Debeli, I asked that I be announced to the commander

17 because that was the custom. I came to see Dragan Djordjevic, Crni. I

18 addressed him as a proper soldier, and he told me, You are in no way

19 bound to stand before me as a soldier would.

20 I said that I needed his assistance for Cerik because we didn't

21 have the necessary men or equipment. He said that he would send the

22 intervention battalion of Pelagicevo to me. They were 40-strong,

23 well-armed, and trained men --

24 Q. Sorry. I'm asking you about the political affiliation of

25 Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, if that's what you can tell us. Did you have

Page 17958

1 any personal knowledge of that and, if so, what sort of knowledge?

2 A. Well, if you will allow me to I will tell you.

3 After this formal part of the encounter, we started chatting

4 about where we were from and who we were, and then he said that he was a

5 member of the radical party. He showed me his membership card. To be

6 frank, I didn't stop to read it. It would not have been of any interest

7 to me. He said that he had some information about me and that he was

8 more than glad to accept me as his collaborator and that I was yet to

9 benefit from my acquaintance with him.

10 Q. Mr. Djukic, you said that at some point the JNA officers were

11 withdrawn from Bosnia. When was that?

12 A. On the 19th of May. That was the order. Admittedly, some of

13 them left on the 20th. Only the officers who had been born in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina were allowed to stay.

15 Q. What was the impact of the departure of the JNA officers on the

16 general situation in Samac?

17 A. There was strong dissatisfaction expressed towards Yugoslavia and

18 the leadership. There were citizens who left the area in protest,

19 especially those in -- living in the border areas opposite Croats or

20 Serbs -- Croats or Muslims.

21 Q. Did there come a time when the 17th Tactical Group was reformed

22 into a different unit?

23 A. Yes. It became the 2nd Bosnian Brigade, headquartered in

24 Pelagicevo.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The 2nd Posavina Brigade, interpreter's

Page 17959

1 correction.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You said that at some point Djordjevic, aka Crni, was appointed

4 the commander of the brigade. Can you tell us who pointed him to that

5 post?

6 A. It was Blagoje Simic, with the help of the top SDS leadership.

7 Q. Do you know if the command of the East Bosnian Corps had any role

8 to play in this appointment?

9 A. Yes. Colonel Dencic, Ile Drincic -- Or Drncic [phoen] stayed

10 there -- overstayed his welcome there, and I suppose that was why he was

11 removed.

12 Q. What sort of role did Dencic play in this appointment?

13 A. Since amid the massacre, the army left Tuzla, he was the

14 commander of the East Bosnian Corps, and it had not yet been fully

15 organised and it was headquartered in Bijeljina.

16 Q. Can you please focus on the appointment of Djordjevic, Crni. Do

17 you or do you not know if Dencic had a role to play in that appointment?

18 A. Yes, he did.

19 Q. Would you kindly tell us what sort of role he had, if you know?

20 A. Well, he agreed to a nomination from the SDS. It would not have

21 come through without that nomination.

22 Q. Can you tell us how you came to know about this?

23 A. It's quite simple. I was in communication with the security

24 officers in the East Bosnia Corps. Later on my chief, Dusan Tanaskovic,

25 chief of security of the corps, was also someone I was in touch with.

Page 17960

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I

2 believe that I have gone five minutes into our break already. Or am I

3 wrong in my calculations?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we had a bit of a late start. So, to that

5 extent, you are right and wrong, because we're here now for 70 minutes.

6 But it might be a good time to take a break.

7 We'll take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes to 6.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I received information during the break

11 that during the session before the break that Mr. Stanisic at times

12 didn't feel that well. He was seen by the doctor. I do understand that

13 the doctor does not oppose against continuing but invited me to be very

14 careful that if Mr. Stanisic would again feel not well where, as the

15 doctor said, he would very much like to continue at this moment, that if

16 circumstances are such that he would prefer not to continue, that he

17 addresses us immediately.

18 I do understand that it may be related to the new medication that

19 started yesterday.

20 MR. JORDASH: Yes. Everything you've said is my understanding of

21 the situation.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we can continue in this understanding.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. Djukic, earlier today you spoke about your links with the JNA

25 garrison in Brcko. You mentioned Officer Petrovic. You mentioned an

Page 17961

1 officer in closed session. And can you please tell us whether, other

2 than these two JNA officers, you had contacts with any other Brcko

3 garrison officers at that time?

4 A. Yes, with Captain Mitric. I was asked by Petrovic to have

5 negotiations with the Croats, specifically with Ivica Samtovac [phoen], a

6 reserve major of the Yugoslav People's Army who joined the Croatian

7 forces. Our villages Vukvik [phoen], Pukovac [phoen], and others with

8 about 3.000 citizens were in a blockade and these people needed help, and

9 so he was helping us with the sick people, with pregnant women and so on.

10 I was conducting these negotiations were actually quite correct.

11 Q. Can you please tell us in which service of the Brcko garrison did

12 this captain work?

13 A. He worked in the intelligence and security organ.

14 Q. Mr. Djukic, did you at any point in time meet a person called

15 Zika Ivanovic in Brcko?

16 A. I did meet Zika Crnogorac.

17 Q. Are you able help us? Zika Crnogorac. Is that his nickname,

18 Crnogorac? And is that his -- and is his last name Ivanovic,

19 Zika Ivanovic?

20 A. Yes, that is something that I would learn later.

21 Q. And are you able to tell us where you met Zika Crnogorac?

22 A. One time I went to see Captain Mitric so that we would go to the

23 line of separation between Grbavica and Donji Rahici where we were

24 supposed to have a meeting at a private house with Mr. Samtovac in front

25 of the office of the boss who had already gone to Belgrade. I was asked

Page 17962

1 to go to Brcko. When I came to the garrison in order to get into

2 Mr. Petrovic's office, always there was a reserve officer --

3 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I think there

4 there was --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.

6 MS. MARCUS: -- something that Mr. Petrovic said and I got a

7 little confused myself. I think Mr. Petrovic said something and it

8 wasn't recorded.

9 JUDGE ORIE: It's all the result of a lack of control over the

10 speed of speech.

11 May I take it that you had tried to inspire the witness to slow

12 down. Is that -- yes.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That does not -- that does not come as a surprise.

15 Witness, your evidence is important for us, so, therefore, allow

16 us to understand it. And the only way for us to understand it and to

17 look at it again after you have now given your testimony is that reading

18 the transcript. But you really should slow down in order to avoid that

19 your evidence will be lost due to lack of -- well, I wouldn't call it

20 discipline, but at least a lack of control over the way in which you

21 present your answers.

22 Mr. Petrovic, I leave it to you where you want to resume. And if

23 it continues this way, I, although reluctantly, will introduce the

24 traffic agent system, which is I just stop anyone to start speaking

25 unless I've given a sign. I would rather not do it, but, if need be, I

Page 17963

1 will.

2 Mr. Petrovic, you may resume your question.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Djukic, you told us that at one point in time you met Zika

5 Crnogorac, that you had gone to see officer Petrovic?

6 A. No.

7 Q. All right. Can you please repeat your whole answer to my

8 question when and how did you meet Zika Crnogorac?

9 A. I was summoned to the Brcko garrison to the intelligence and

10 security organ. At Captain Petrovic's office, who had gone as an active

11 officer to Belgrade, the said Mitric was working at the time. In front

12 of his office, there was a person that I did not know who was sitting at

13 the desk in front of the office, and there were two young men in front of

14 him in dark uniforms. They were holding Scorpions and they had their

15 fingers on the trigger.

16 I said that I was going to see Mitric, to which they did not

17 react at all, and I went. Captain Mitric explained to me that

18 Zika Crnogorac with two or three men, elite members according to him, was

19 at the War Presidency of the Serbian municipality of Brcko and that he

20 had already done some work at the secretariat by confiscating robbed or

21 looted property. Just that much.

22 Q. Mr. Djukic, and did you find out if Zika Crnogorac arrived before

23 Brcko was taken, during the capture of it, or after it had been captured

24 by the Serbian forces; do you know which?

25 A. He came later once the late Savic left; Savic, aka Mauzer.

Page 17964

1 Q. Did I understand you correctly as having said that he arrived

2 after Brcko was captured?

3 A. Yes, you understood me correctly.

4 Q. Are you able to tell us if you know if there was some sort of

5 agreement between the Brcko War Presidency in view of the fact that you

6 mentioned that Zika was in the War Presidency of the town of Brcko?

7 A. I do know this, but this is something that I found out later once

8 I took over permanent duties in the intelligence and security organ in

9 the Bijeljina Corps. We were given the assignment of checking the work

10 of Djordje Ristanic, the president of the Brcko Crisis Staff, and it was

11 then along with the other documents indicating to some delinquencies that

12 we found some sort of contract with a unit that was supposed to control

13 the entrance and exits from Brcko. We did not continue our processing

14 because the political structures asserted to the command that if we

15 continue to work to see whether there were any violations by Ristanic we

16 would cause dissatisfaction in town.

17 Q. Witness, sir, did you hear anything about Zika Crnogorac's

18 behaviour in Brcko at this time that we're talking about?

19 A. Yes, I did hear. Yes, I did hear of that. My cousin, Obren

20 Petrovic, told me that Zika, with another three men, came to the

21 secretariat asking to look at the files of more expensive luxury cars and

22 some other items, which had been illegally taken from well-off Muslim

23 houses in the Buric Brdo area of Brcko which was called the Dedinje of

24 Brcko.

25 Q. First of all, this cousin of yours, can you please tell us which

Page 17965

1 structure he worked in and how did he assess Zika's engagement, positive

2 or negative? What was his position on that in the conversation?

3 A. Well, my cousin is a teacher and he was mobilised in the reserve

4 forces. He was desperate because of the crimes and the looting of

5 property from non-Serb citizens because he had grown up with Muslims and

6 Croats, and he felt that Zika was correct and that ...

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the end of the

8 sentence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last part of your

10 answer. You said your cousin was desperate because the crimes and the

11 looting of property from non-Serb citizens, because he had grown up with

12 Muslims and Croats, and he felt that Zika was ...

13 Could you please repeat what you then said?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That he was acting properly.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And do you know if Zika arrested some of those people who were

17 committing crimes against Muslims and Croats in Brcko?

18 A. Yes, he did make arrests, with the remark that these people who

19 were being taken into custody were being taken into custody unlawfully.

20 Q. And do you know if Zika had any conflicts with Ristanic?

21 A. Yes, I know about that but I don't know any details.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, part of one of the previous questions

23 is not perfectly clear to me.

24 You said Zika came to the secretariat and asked for files of

25 expensive cars. For what purpose did he want to have a look at those

Page 17966

1 files?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had been stolen. They

3 disappeared from the parking lot, or, better said, from the courtyard of

4 the secretariat; these expensive vehicles that had been temporarily

5 seized from certain persons. Better said, abandoned vehicles of Croats

6 and Muslims who, out of fear, had escaped from Brcko, or were possibly

7 taken to Luka.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do you know what this then resulted?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later, certain investigations were

10 conducted, cases were processed so that those files or cases would appear

11 before this International Tribunal, but only two such cases actually made

12 it here.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So the purpose was to investigate and to prosecute

14 those who had stolen those vehicles; is that correctly understood?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You did understand that correctly.

16 And when I finish my testimony here, I have an appointment for an

17 interview with Prosecutor Mujkanovic in Brcko on the topic of war crimes,

18 even though I had given my information to international representatives

19 about grave violations of international laws of war and customs of war,

20 in Brcko.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. You mentioned that two of those perpetrators had been tried

24 before this Tribunal. Can you tell us who that was?

25 A. Adolf Jelisic, Goran, and Ranko Cesinic. And this is just a

Page 17967

1 coincidental sample.

2 Q. Thank you, Witness.

3 Do you know whether in these attempts by Zika Crnogorac to bring

4 some law and order, whether he also engaged some local people there?

5 A. Yes. There was a group from the Brcko Radnicki settlement, or

6 labourer settlement, Grcici [phoen]. And even a nephew of mine who used

7 to be a police officer in Baranja, even he was a member of that units for

8 a while.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness

10 please be shown P1432. And could we have the first pages in both

11 versions, please.

12 Q. Witness, I will read it out to you. This is an interim report of

13 the command of the Eastern Bosnian Corps from its intelligence organ.

14 It's dated 29th September, 1992, and I will just read out the portion to

15 you, the last sentence of the first large -- first big paragraph on page

16 1, where it says:

17 "The work and actions are documented and they had been --

18 Zika Ivanovic, aka Crnogorac, prepared and analysed documentation on the

19 work on the actions, and we believe that part of the documentation is at

20 the Brcko police station."

21 Could you please expand a bit? What kind of documents or

22 documentation is this a reference to? And how do you read this portion

23 of the report?

24 A. I believe this is a report that was submitted by my colleague,

25 Captain Cuturic, an active-duty JNA officer who was temporarily in

Page 17968

1 Bijeljina because he was -- he was born in Bijeljina. And if we can just

2 take a look and see whether there is his signature there. That is

3 Captain Cuturic, aka Sorica [phoen].

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we see the last

5 page of this document in both versions, please.

6 Q. Mr. Djukic, this is -- the signatory is the chief of the

7 intelligence organ, Captain First Class Simeon Cuturic. Is that person

8 the person that you were referring to?

9 A. Yes. But it's possible that this was an error. He was

10 temporarily chief there -- or, rather, acting chief, and when I came

11 there, it was a major who was in that position. Now as for Cuturic, I

12 knew him and I even had seen this report when I returned after being

13 treated in Banja Koviljaca.

14 Q. Could you tell us -- could you tell us, since you had occasion to

15 see this report earlier, the documentation mentioned there that had been

16 prepared by Zika, what was that a reference to? What did those documents

17 refer to?

18 A. They referred to Article 104 from the penal code of the SFRY that

19 dealt with crimes of killings or murder, theft of property that was not

20 requisitioned and used for military purposes, and so on.

21 Now two Kaurinovic brothers from the Brcko SUP, who were very

22 honest and decent criminal officers, they, too, told me about these

23 crimes and the documentation, and they assisted him in preparing it.

24 Q. You say they assisted him. Whom do you mean? Whom did the

25 Kaurinovic help?

Page 17969

1 A. They helped Zika. There was a form of co-operation between them

2 in this respect.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness, sir. Tell us, please, were you wounded at

4 some point in time; and when was that?

5 A. Yes. I was wounded from the left bank of the Sava, in

6 municipality of Zupanja, on the 18th of August at 10.15. And I had

7 difficulties, as I was sitting here, so I had to apologise. I have

8 difficulties getting up from the chair. I have problems in my left knee.

9 So I was treated until the 17th of November, at which time I was assigned

10 to the corps.

11 Q. Could you just tell us the year, please. You said 18th of

12 August through 17th of November of what year?

13 A. Well, 1992. I'm sorry, I was talking about 1992, so I just --

14 this was implicit.

15 Q. Could you please tell us this: "You mentioned until I was

16 assigned to the corps," which corps was this?

17 A. The East Bosnia Corps, which was headquartered in Bijeljina.

18 Q. Mr. Djukic, did anyone visit you while you were hospitalised and

19 being treated for the wounds -- for the wounding in August?

20 A. Well, I had already -- almost recovered, and I was working at the

21 Corp. I was supposed to move -- to be transferred to Han Pijesak to the

22 main headquarters. However, a fragment remained in my leg and I had to

23 go to the hospital to have it removed. This was in February 1993, when

24 the shrapnel fragment was removed.

25 I received a visit from -- by a minister from the Republic of

Page 17970

1 Serbian Krajina, Mr. Milan Martic, and inspector Radovan Kostic, aka

2 Rade.

3 Q. On that occasion did Martic make any officers?

4 A. Yes. He explained to me that the situation was very difficult

5 within his ministry. He told me that there were a lot of problems and

6 clashes of various departments, and he felt that I would be able to

7 consolidate the situation there, and he said that, if necessary, he would

8 take this up with President Karadzic.

9 Q. Mr. Witness, after that conversation, did you -- were you

10 assigned to some position within the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

11 A. Yes. By approval of the new commander in Bijeljina,

12 Colonel Petrija [phoen] Koljevic. I was appointed as chief inspector of

13 police of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. It would take too long if I

14 were to describe all the conditions for that.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Or what the

16 circumstances were.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Djukic, could you tell us -- could you tell

19 us what -- what was your job? What was your ambit of work?

20 A. Well, all the work that had to do with public security; in other

21 words, crime, public law and order, traffic, road traffic, controls and

22 checks on the river, the Danube river, and everything else. It would

23 take too long to list them all.

24 Q. Mr. Djukic, when did you take up this post in the Republic of

25 Serbian Krajina?

Page 17971

1 A. The 15th of March, 1993.

2 Q. Mr. Djukic, while you were in this post, can you tell us where

3 you were headquartered?

4 A. The Republic of the Serbian Krajina had part of its ministry in

5 Vukovar. It was a detached department. I was in the Radnicki Dom in

6 Borovo settlement near Vukovar.

7 THE INTERPRETER: In Borovo Selo, interpreter's correction.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. While you were in eastern Slavonia, did you have any work-related

10 matters with Ilok, the town of Ilok?

11 A. Well, not just Ilok. I have to clarify. I was supposed to

12 improve the way the police worked and I had to inspect all organisational

13 unit, inspect their work, including the department in Drnis.

14 Q. At some point in time were you assigned a task that involved

15 Ilok, when was it, and who assigned it to you?

16 A. Well, I only received a telegram from the ministry that I should

17 cancel all my other planned activities, that there were serious

18 difficulties, and that I would soon receive a special unit of the

19 Republic of the Serbian Krajina, its corps members, headed by

20 Colonel Krsto Zarkovic.

21 Q. Can you tell us when this was and whether you've learned what

22 those planned activities were regarding Ilok?

23 A. Well, this was around the 15th of January, 1994. We were briefed

24 on what the problems were, and we developed or drafted the activities

25 ourselves. At the RSK ministry, there was a working group organised.

Page 17972

1 Zarko --

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last name.

3 A. -- and me were there, and since this had to do with crime in the

4 area between Backa and Ilok --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Zarko who?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was Krsto Zarkovic.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)