1 Tuesday, 5 November 2002
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3:01 p.m.
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour. Microphone
8 please. Microphone.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Before beginning the hearing, I
10 should like to say good afternoon to everyone here present, and I would
11 like to ask Madam Registrar to call the case, please.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-96-23/2-PT, the Prosecutor versus
13 Radovan Stankovic.
14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.
15 For the transcript, can we have the appearances, please. First
16 for the Prosecution.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Good afternoon, Your Honour. If it please the
18 Court, Dirk Ryneveld, appearing today with my co-counsel, Daryl Mundis.
19 And the Prosecution is prepared to proceed today.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 And for the Defence?
22 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my name is Milenko
23 Radovic, attorney from Foca Srbinje, appearing on behalf of the accused
24 Radovan Stankovic.
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am Judge Amin El Mahdi,
1 Pre-Trial Judge for this case. I should like to refer to two orders: The
2 first, whereby the President of the Tribunal has attributed this case to
3 the first Trial Chamber; and the second order designating me by the
4 Chamber as the Pre-Trial Judge.
5 I should now like to address Mr. Stankovic. Mr. Stankovic, can
6 you hear me in a language you understand?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Do not hesitate to tell me if
9 there should be any problem regarding sound or any other problem or if you
10 wish to intervene, please do not hesitate to let me know.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 As you know, we are today having a hearing in accordance with Rule
14 65 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. I know that there has been
15 a request by the Defence in connection with the form of the indictment. A
16 decision will probably be rendered in the next few days, but we would like
17 to make progress without waiting for that ruling, because that would be in
18 the interest of justice and above all in the interest of Mr. Stankovic
19 himself. And I wish to say that as Pre-Trial Judge, it is my duty in the
20 first place to make sure that the procedure is observed fully and that all
21 matters which might arise can be addressed fairly.
22 With your permission, I should like to address myself to the
23 Prosecution. Where do we stand with respect to the disclosure in
24 application of Rule 65?
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. I can indicate to the Court that
1 under Rule 66(A)(i) the supporting materials, of course, which had to be
2 disclosed, those have in fact been disclosed to the accused. My
3 understanding is that although on the 12th of July, I believe, that was
4 the Initial Appearance, the accused appeared with different counsel. It
5 became clear that he chose a different counsel, and the Prosecution was in
6 correspondence with Mr. Radovic and due to Mr. Radovic's request, the
7 supporting materials were actually provided to him after the 11th of
8 August. Rather than send them to him through the normal mail, he wanted
9 to come and pick them up. But it was at his request and I believe he
10 acknowledges that he has received timely receipt of the supporting
11 materials, although technically speaking it was 30 -- it was beyond 30
12 days, we were prepared to give it, but we wanted to comply with Defence
13 counsel's request.
14 With respect to the additional matters under 66(A)(ii), I can tell
15 the Court that we have been streamlining this case. We have had to redact
16 many of the materials that have been -- documents, et cetera, and
17 statement which is were used in the trial of Kunarac et al. And we are
18 almost at a position to be able to provide the Defence with additional
19 material in full compliance with Rule 66(A)(ii), so we're well on the way
20 to being able to fulfil our Rule 66(A)(ii) disclosure obligations.
21 I can also tell the Court that we've invited the Defence counsel
22 to a meeting in our office immediately after this Status Conference in
23 order to see how it is that we could perhaps efficiently speed up the
24 process and collaboratively work out the pre-trial phase of this case.
25 We are, of course, constantly aware of our Rule 68 obligations,
1 and we are going to be disclosing any Rule 68 material that comes to our
2 attention, as is our obligation.
3 Those are my general comments, Your Honour, but we are fairly
4 confident that this case can be streamlined. And I've asked Mr. Mundis,
5 actually, to address you later with some particular matters. But since
6 Your Honour has raised the issue of the challenge to the form of the
7 indictment, and the fact that the Court is contemplating ruling on that
8 matter in the next few days, I thought it only prudent to advise the Court
9 that since Mr. Mundis and I have been assigned to this case, we have been
10 looking at ways of streamlining the case, reducing the total number of
11 witnesses, and we can also say that we have been reviewing the indictment
12 itself, and it is possible that the Prosecution will actually be making an
13 application to amend the indictment, to streamline it even further;
14 however, we also anticipate that there could be three additional counts:
15 Of rape, enslavement, and outrages upon personal indignity arising out of
16 incidents concerning an individual by the pseudonym of DB in the period
17 following her detention a the Karaman's house.
18 So that is by way of, shall we say, an indication to the Court
19 that that is what we are anticipating. And Mr. Mundis, I believe, will be
20 addressing the topic later in the Status Conference if the Court would
21 like to hear us on it.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. But I would
23 like to make sure of one thing, however, and that is the following:
24 You're saying that you're thinking of modifying yourself the indictment.
25 I think that you responded to the request of the Defence, to the motion of
1 the Defence, and I do not recollect that I read or that the Chamber was
2 seized of your position, so this is an absolutely new position.
3 MR. RYNEVELD: Absolutely -- yes, absolutely correct, Your Honour.
4 I became involved in this file after the filing of the response to which
5 you refer. I might say that of course we cannot do this without leave of
6 the Court, and this is the first opportunity that we have had in order to
7 address the Court with respect to the potential that we may be seeking
8 leave of this Court. And I thought it was only prudent to advise the
9 Court of our contemplation of seeking leave to amend the indictment prior
10 to the Court ruling necessarily on the form of the motion as it presently
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] May I seek a point of
13 clarification. If I understand you correctly, you said that you have been
14 in contact with the Defence counsel. Did you raise this issue among
15 others, this issue of amendment to the indictment?
16 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, that -- I can say -- what I've told
17 the Court is that we have today invited Defence counsel to meet with us
18 after the Status Conference. The only thing that Defence counsel knew is
19 that we were inviting him to a meeting. One of the topics was going to be
20 our proposed amendment to the indictment and other matters. So this has
21 not been discussed with Defence counsel. He knew nothing about the
22 meeting until moments prior to our 3:00 Status Conference. This is all
23 very recent development.
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you for those
1 Can I now ask Defence counsel -- excuse me. Mr. Stankovic, did
2 you want to say something?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. I have to
4 say at my Initial Appearance I was allotted -- designated an attorney. It
5 wasn't somebody I had chosen of my own free will.
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] If I understand well, now the
7 counsel that you have is a counsel of your choice, isn't it? The Defence
8 counsel here present is a person of your choice?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, this one. But the one at the
10 Initial Appearance was officially designated. He wasn't my attorney. At
11 my Initial Appearance, I didn't even ask for an attorney. I rejected the
12 possibility of having one. So I'd like that to be quite clear. I
13 wouldn't like to give the impression that I had one attorney at the
14 Initial Appearance and then I decided to change him.
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Please
16 don't speak so quickly because the interpreters have a hard time following
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am sorry. I speak rather fast.
19 It's part of my nature.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Never mind. In any case, I can
21 assure you that the Initial Appearance was before another Chamber, another
22 Pre-Trial Judge, and today we are beginning, if I may put it that way,
23 from scratch, from the beginning.
24 So could I now ask the Defence counsel to address us, if he has
25 anything to say, with regard to the disclosure of documents, witnesses,
1 and so on.
2 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what my learned friend
3 opposite has said is quite right, that the Defence on the 26th of August
4 at my own request received the indictment and the statements of 13
5 witnesses with the pseudonyms which were disclosed in accordance with Rule
6 66(A)(i). The Defence has up to now managed to study closely the amended
7 indictment and the witness statements served on it. We have also been
8 able to review a certain amount of documents linked to the issue of rape
9 as processed by this Tribunal so far, as well as the appropriate
10 literature, and we are continuing our efforts along those lines.
11 The Defence, as you are aware, filed a motion against the
12 indictment, and the Defence has also received the response of the
13 Prosecution to this motion and submits that at this point in time there is
14 no need for any position to be taken with respect to the allegations of
15 the Prosecution.
16 The Defence expects further disclosure of documents or any
17 information to the effect that there is no more material to be disclosed
18 by the Prosecution, upon which the Defence, after having received all the
19 material pursuant to Rules 66(A)(ii), will be able to assess the time it
20 will need for preparations for trial.
21 I wish to point out that I have been appointed as Defence counsel
22 for the accused Stankovic for a fixed term. And for the Defence to be
23 able to continue its work in preparation of the case, it would be
24 necessary for a decision to be taken on my designation for an unlimited
25 term, in view of the fact that we have provided to the Registry all the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 necessary documentation for such a decision to be taken. The Defence will
2 naturally pay attention to its obligations as emanating from Rule 67, of
3 course, depending on the steps taken by the Prosecution.
4 The Defence expects the Prosecution to act in accordance with Rule
5 68 and to provide us as soon as possible with all exculpatory material in
6 its possession so that this, too, might be of assistance to us in
7 preparing our case.
8 The Defence will certainly do its best not to delay the
9 proceedings unnecessarily and will do everything in its power to prepare
10 the case for a fair and expeditious trial. Though this case in terms of
11 its complexity has been ranked as at the highest level, from the
12 standpoint of the Defence it is rather a complicated case and will
13 certainly require some time for the Defence to collect Defence evidence,
14 especially with regard to the identification and location of potential
16 And finally I should just like to point out that the Defence will
17 within the deadlines fixed seek to fulfil all its obligations that Your
18 Honour, as the Pre-Trial Judge, will assign on the Defence and especially
19 its obligations emanating from paragraph G of Rule 65(F) and 73 ter.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. If I have
21 understood you correctly, you have raised two questions: The first has to
22 do with your final appointment as Defence counsel. Have you taken the
23 necessary steps with the Registry to that end?
24 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. And as I just
25 pointed out, I have filed all the necessary documents for my appointment,
1 as well as documents regarding the material position of my client.
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And when was that? How long ago
3 was that when you filed your request and the necessary documents?
4 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] I filed all those documents to the
5 Registry on the 27th of August. However, one document linked to the
6 property of my client, and before coming to The Hague I spoke to the
7 financial inspector, Mr. Jovanovic, and my secretary yesterday forwarded
8 that document as well, so that having mailed that document, the Defence
9 has completed all the documents required for my appointment as permanent
10 Defence counsel for Mr. Stankovic.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that only
12 recently you provided the document that was missing. Was that two days
13 ago? A week ago? When was that?
14 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] All the documents regarding me,
15 myself, were filed on the 27th of August.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, no. I'm talking about the
17 necessary document requested by the Registry concerning the financial
18 status of Mr. Stankovic, if I understand you correctly. When did you
19 submit that document?
20 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] All the documents regarding Radovan
21 Stankovic, the accused, were filed by me on the 27th of August, 2002,
22 except for one document, which was required of me by the financial
23 inspector and it has to do with the financial status of the accused and
24 regarding his ownership of a vehicle.
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Well, it's precisely in
1 connection with that document that I'm asking you. When did you submit
2 that particular document?
3 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] That document was faxed yesterday,
4 according to what my secretary tells me. It was sent by fax to the
5 Registry yesterday.
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 I believe that Mr. Mundis wanted to raise a few issues.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I briefly rise to my feet
9 simply to give the Trial Chamber through Your Honour as the Pre-Trial
10 Judge a brief overview as to where the Prosecution or the approach the
11 Prosecution seeks to take with respect to this case. I think that's
12 helpful for planning purposes and will certainly benefit the Chamber as it
13 attempts to deal with the pre-trial matters concerning this case.
14 As Mr. Ryneveld has indicated, we will be meeting later this
15 afternoon with Defence counsel Mr. Radovic. Among the issues that we
16 anticipate will be raised during the course of that meeting would be
17 potential grounds of agreement between the parties so that we can begin
18 that process of attempting to narrow the issues which the Trial Chamber
19 will be faced with.
20 Perhaps in addition to any agreed-upon facts or in the event those
21 discussions are not successful, the Prosecution will very shortly be
22 filing a request pursuant to Rule 94(B), requesting the Trial Chamber to
23 take judicial notice of certain adjudicated facts which were the result of
24 the Kunarac trial and appeal. Given that the Kunarac case and the current
25 case are closely linked, Your Honour, we will be filing a motion
1 requesting for the Chamber to take judicial notice of certain adjudicated
2 facts as established through the Appeals Chamber in the previous related
4 In addition -- and of course also dependent upon any agreed upon
5 facts which the parties are able to reach -- the Prosecution anticipates
6 relying upon Rule 92 bis (D), whereby we will request the Trial Chamber to
7 accept or to admit into evidence certain transcript evidence from the
8 witnesses who testified in the Kunarac et al case.
9 Once the Trial Chamber has addressed these two motions, which
10 again we anticipate filing shortly, and of course having due regard for
11 any agreed-upon facts which the parties may or may not be able to reach,
12 the Prosecution would then be in a position to file its 65 ter documents
13 to include pre-trial brief, witness list, and exhibit lists.
14 At this time -- and again, assuming the Prosecution has some
15 success with respect to the motions which I've just described for you --
16 the Prosecution anticipates calling between 12 and 18 witnesses in its
17 case in chief. Again, assuming that we're able to rely upon judicial
18 notice of adjudicated facts and transcripts pursuant to Rule 92 bis (D),
19 the Prosecution expects its case in chief to last between two to four
20 weeks, in total. Assuming the Defence is allocated approximately this
21 same period of time, the Prosecution, Your Honour, anticipates this entire
22 case to last between six and eight weeks. We would expect, given the time
23 frame for the filing of the various document which is I've indicated, an
24 opportunity for the Defence to respond, and at least with respect to Rule
25 92 bis (D), which anticipates the parties being heard, as well as 94(B),
1 which similarly anticipates the parties being heard, the Prosecution would
2 anticipate that by spring of next year this case would be ready to go to
3 trial via a rather streamlined process again, assuming that the
4 Prosecution is successful with respect to its submissions under the two
5 Rules that I previously mentioned. So the Prosecution's position, Your
6 Honour, is that this is a relatively short case, that pending resolution
7 of pre-trial issues which the Prosecution will be filing shortly, this
8 case will be ready to go in the springtime and will be a very streamlined
9 case by the standards of the International Tribunal.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.
11 I should like to take advantage of this opportunity to invite you
12 to cooperate with our extraordinary legal officers who have just joined
13 the Tribunal. And I appreciate his professional qualities, as well as his
14 personal ones, his character, and I should like to call upon both parties
15 to cooperate with him. I'm talking about Mr. Harhoff, the senior legal
16 officer, and that the conduct of this case and these proceedings, the
17 pre-trial proceedings, in fact, I invite you to cooperate with him. And
18 as far as I understand, there's a meeting today that has been scheduled.
19 So I should like to invite the parties to attend the meeting, to get
20 together perhaps somewhere where Mr. Harhoff will designate, in his
21 offices or wherever. But that doesn't matter. It's the substance that
22 counts. And I do hope that the parties will be fully aware of the fact
23 that everybody wishes to see justice done, justice with a capital "J,"
24 which means that this calls for all of you to pull your efforts and see
25 that we have justice and that justice is not only done but seen to be
1 done. Justice must be seen to be done.
2 Having said that, I should like to ask Mr. Stankovic if he has any
3 observations to make, any comments perhaps at this point in time. Would
4 you like to say anything, Mr. Stankovic? And you can feel free to say
5 what you would like.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to ask that my
7 case --
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Slowly, please, Mr. Stankovic, to
9 facilitate the work of the interpreters.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to have my case set
11 aside from the other accused, severed. I don't want it to be linked to
12 Kunarac, Kovac, and the other people, because the time period encompassed
13 by the indictment --
14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Could you please speak slowly for
15 the interpreters, Mr. Stankovic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I will, Your Honour.
17 So this period of time for which you charge me in the indictment,
18 I should like to say that I never even knew those people, so I didn't know
19 Kunarac or Kovac or the others, the rest of them. And from all this, I
20 can draw one conclusion on the basis of what the Prosecutor said as
21 well --
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stankovic, this isn't the
23 proper time to bring up the substance of the case. What I'm asking you
24 now regards procedure. We're going to have ample opportunity to hear you
25 at length. You'll have all the time you need to express yourself or
1 through the intermediary of your Defence counsel. But what I would like
2 to hear from you now is your health. How is your health? Is it -- are
3 you in good health? Do you have any complaints?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Relatively good. Relatively good.
5 I say "relatively" because who can say that he is fine when he's in
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Detention isn't prison.
8 Detention is detention, and there's a difference. Until proven guilty, so
9 we can't call this "prison" yet.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me, Your Honour. If you're now embarking on
11 those questions -- is it your intention to do this open session or in
12 closed session this part of the proceedings? I've seen it done in both.
13 I just wonder if Your Honour wants to deal with the accused's concerns, if
14 any, if --
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] If you wish to deal with any
16 questions with respect to protected persons or persons who enjoy
17 protective measures, we can, of course, go into private session or closed
19 Madam Registrar, which is it, private or closed? Is it the same
21 THE REGISTRAR: Private. Private session.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Yes, partially? You asked for partially?
23 MR. RYNEVELD: No, Your Honour. It's just that I don't know what
24 Your Honour's preference would be. But in some other cases I have seen
25 the questions about the accused, concerns about prison or anything --
1 issues involving his health done in private session. I just didn't know
2 whether we were going to be doing that in private session or open
3 session. It matters not to the Prosecution.
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: No, no, it's open session. I can assure you.
5 [Interpretation] And I think that it is important for everybody, not only
6 those of us in this courtroom but elsewhere - I see that there are people
7 in the public gallery - but if you wish to go into private session for
8 anything --
9 MR. RYNEVELD: No, thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
11 I think that that concludes our task for today. If nobody has
12 anything to add --
13 Defence counsel, would you like to add anything?
14 MR. RADOVIC: [Interpretation] Not for now, thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
16 On that point I declare the meeting closed.
17 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned
18 at 3:38 p.m.