Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1682

1 Tuesday, 3 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. We understand there is a matter that

6 you wish to raise, Mr. Rodic, is it, or Mr. Petrovic?

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Yes,

8 there is indeed something that we believe should be discussed before we

9 start today's hearing.

10 Yesterday, we received a report from a psychiatrist appointed by

11 the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia to carry out

12 psychiatric examination of Dr. Pavle Strugar on behalf of the Defence

13 team. Yesterday afternoon, although it was not a working day, we filed

14 this report with the CV of the doctor attached. We have also attached a

15 brief document drafted by the Defence team. We tried to inform the

16 Chamber's assistant. We failed, however, but we did manage to get in

17 touch with our learned friends and colleagues from the Prosecution. And

18 we did tell them about this, so they have been informed that this would be

19 our first issue today.

20 I am not sure if the report I am talking about has reached you

21 officially. If it hasn't, it will be forwarded to you in the course of

22 the day. You do, however, Your Honour, remember, I am certain, that the

23 Defence has on a number of different occasions required a psychiatric

24 examination to be carried out. We filed a request like that at the time

25 the trial was first scheduled. We filed a motion in writing in late

Page 1683

1 November. I believe it was on the 27th of November. We raised this issue

2 at the Pre-Trial Conference, as you will remember. We drafted a motion

3 and required a 74 bis Rule, medical examination, which you ruled upon on

4 the 19th of December last year. Your decision rejected our motion for a

5 psychiatric examination of the accused to be conducted, but a possibility

6 was left open for the Defence following agreement with the Trial Chamber

7 and in compliance with the Rules of this Tribunal to organise a medical

8 examination -- such medical examination as is deemed necessary.

9 On the 11th of January this year, the Registry passed their

10 decision accepting the Defence's motion and proposal and appointed

11 Dr. Dusanka Lecic as the psychiatrist that would prepare an expert opinion

12 on the psychiatric state and condition of the accused, Pavle Strugar. We

13 received this report yesterday. The essence of the report is as follows,

14 prior to which I would like to point out that this is a very detailed,

15 in-depth report made on the basis of two sessions that Dr. Lecic had with

16 the accused Pavle Strugar at the Detention Unit. All the necessary tests

17 were conducted during these two sessions. So on these occasions, all the

18 necessary tests were carried out that are prescribed by the World

19 International Organisation and the International Association of

20 Psychiatrists because these are the two references that we have here.

21 Dr. Lecic conducted these tests, examinations, and the results are known

22 to you today, Your Honours. You have them, or should have them in front

23 of you. The essence of the diagnosis established by Dr. Lecic is that

24 Mr. Pavle Strugar has displayed signs of the following illnesses of a

25 psychiatric nature: There are three conclusions, vascular dementia being

Page 1684

1 the first one, the second one being depression, and the third one being

2 PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder.

3 Dr. Lecic also took into account in her report the Somatic

4 illnesses that the accused Pavle Strugar is suffering from. The overall

5 conclusion based on the examinations she conducted is that there are

6 serious cognitive deficits in such areas as are of essence for the proper

7 functioning of the accused. He is, namely, unable to memorise new content

8 or to remember old things. He is unable to establish the necessary level

9 of concentration to follow the trial. There is the problem of the short

10 attention span, and the report lists several other problems which I hope

11 you will receive as soon as possible. The Defence has initiated the need

12 for these medical examinations because ever since we first started

13 representing Mr. Strugar, the level of cooperation of Mr. Strugar in terms

14 of preparing his Defence has been worrying low. The communication between

15 us, the Defence team on the one hand, and the accused is very basic and

16 rudimentary, and it never goes as far as the very essence of the case that

17 is being tried before this Tribunal, where Mr. Strugar stands accused.

18 This was the initial important signal which led the Defence to

19 believe that the issue of Pavle Strugar's ability to actively follow and

20 take part in the trial should be brought up. Based on these three

21 diagnoses established by Dr. Lecic and based on the influence of illnesses

22 that are present in Mr. Strugar's case, these illnesses being directly

23 connected with his psychiatric condition, Dr. Lecic reached the conclusion

24 that the accused, Pavle Strugar, is not able to follow the proceedings and

25 is not healthy enough to be tried before this Tribunal.

Page 1685

1 I also wish to inform the Trial Chamber that this is a very

2 experienced medical expert who teaches at the faculty of medicine in

3 Belgrade and is a member of numerous international health organisations

4 and doctors' organisations, a doctor who has worked on numerous projects

5 related to the area. On the discussion, the Defence team believe that

6 this is a well-founded expert report, expert medical report, which

7 deserves to be taken into serious consideration.

8 We also believe it is important to point out the following: This

9 is the first report of this kind, the first comprehensive report related

10 to the psychiatric condition of the accused, Pavle Strugar. You will

11 remember that at the Pre-Trial Conference, numerous medical documents were

12 put forward that were not as comprehensive, but only referred to

13 individual psychiatric and physical problems which Mr. Pavle Strugar

14 displayed at the time. This report is of a more comprehensive nature. It

15 is a very detailed, in-depth report, very specific, and the conclusion of

16 this report is completely unambiguous and crystal clear. The conclusion

17 drawn by Dr. Lecic is that at this point in time Dr. Strugar is simply

18 unable to proceed because his state of health is not sufficiently good for

19 that to enable him to closely follow the proceedings and actively take

20 part in the trial.

21 I would like to use this opportunity to remind the Trial Chamber

22 that all we've had so far was a report by a general practitioner obtained

23 on the 16th of December last year by the Detention Unit doctor on duty.

24 You remember that this was a medical report drafted by a GP which contains

25 a single sentence. No detailed analysis whatsoever was included. This

Page 1686

1 report stated that all the conditions were in place to commence the trial.

2 There is another important thing that I wish to point out. This

3 report has now been drafted. All the medical expertise available so far

4 has been used and taken into consideration in the drafting of this report

5 from Dr. -- From General Strugar's unfortunately long medical history. As

6 far as this new report is concerned, I would merely like to point out the

7 continuity that exists between Dr. Kmetic's report dated the 25th of

8 November 2001. I'm referring to this expert opinion, although I do not

9 believe that this report is any more detailed, comprehensive, or more

10 relevant than the remaining reports which have been made in the meantime.

11 However, this was a report made by an independent expert appointed by the

12 Registry of the ICTY in November 2001. The original situation was the

13 same or similar to the one we are facing today.

14 Having reviewed this report, the Defence believes that since the

15 time the report was made, Pavle Strugar has not regained a sufficiently

16 good health condition to be able to follow proceedings before this

17 Tribunal. We believe that any further proceedings would seriously

18 jeopardise his rights as an accused before this Tribunal. He does not

19 have the necessary presence of mind to follow proceedings, and therefore

20 cannot be tried. The Defence wishes to reiterate its openness and

21 emphasise that we would welcome any revision of Dr. Lecic's findings as

22 ordered by the Trial Chamber, should the Trial Chamber wish to order any

23 further examinations and reports.

24 As I have already said, our contact with Mr. Strugar has been very

25 difficult, and we have hardly been able to receive any assistance from him

Page 1687












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Page 1688

1 in preparing this case. As laymen in the science of psychiatry, we were

2 under a certain impression which has since been confirmed by an expert.

3 We would like to ask two things of the Trial Chamber: Firstly, this trial

4 has entered Day 19, and it should be stopped. We would ask of the

5 Trial Chamber to take any decision that the Trial Chamber deems necessary

6 to verify this expert opinion, if it should be deemed necessary. We don't

7 believe it is necessary, but should the Trial Chamber decide that it is,

8 verification should be carried out of Dr. Lecic's expert opinion. Our

9 recommendation is that the trial be stopped. It is in the best interest

10 of justice, and this is in compliance with the sort of jurisprudence that

11 is applied in most legal systems in the world because the accused is

12 simply not able to follow the proceedings due to his health condition.

13 We believe that the report has proved this state of facts

14 efficiently, and this, for us, is sufficient foundation, and sufficient

15 basis, for our request. If, which we don't believe will be the case, the

16 Trial Chamber should rule that in addition to the existence of this

17 comprehensive expert report by an appointed psychiatrist to the effect

18 that the accused Pavle Strugar is not healthy enough to closely follow the

19 proceedings and take part in this trial, and should the Trial Chamber wish

20 to discontinue proceedings immediately after today's hearing, if this is

21 not the case, the Defence would like to file a complaint in which case the

22 Defence would ask for the proceedings to be discontinued until such a

23 motion is ruled on by the Appeals Chamber. We believe this would only

24 amount to fair treatment, and any other course of action, we believe,

25 would severely prejudice Mr. Strugar's rights according to the Statute of

Page 1689

1 this International Tribunal. Thank you very much for your attention,

2 Your Honours.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you Mr. Petrovic. Could I indicate that we,

4 as a Chamber, have not yet received the report. We were late coming in to

5 Court because one copy of it was handed to us as we waited outside. And

6 we took the opportunity to read through it then quickly. But that is the

7 extent of our familiarity with the report at the present time.

8 Ms. Somers, do you have any submission?

9 MS. SOMERS: I do, Your Honour. Thank you, it is true that

10 Mr. Petrovic called me between I would say -- well, sometime around 7-ish,

11 if I'm correct last night, to mention that he was going to be raising this

12 issue. I will say that the accused has been out on provisional release

13 since either late 2001 or early 2002, that there has been ample

14 opportunity if in fact this issue were a bona fide issue, to have been

15 raised and dealt with at that time. As a matter of fact, I am looking to

16 see if the record reflects a 65 ter conference conducted by then legal

17 officer -- senior legal officer Olivier Fourmy of Chamber I where a

18 representation was made because of some insinuations that maybe there

19 would be going down the road of health, that competency would not be

20 raised. Accordingly this issue is not raised for the first time upon

21 Mr. Strugar's having been ordered to return to this Tribunal following a

22 lengthy provisional release, but rather this was raised early on and

23 simply tabled, it appears, until a convenient moment such as introduction

24 of evidence which may or may not be terribly favourable to the accused.

25 The Prosecution suggests that the Defence's assertion that this is

Page 1690

1 proof of condition is wrong. It is one person's opinion. As such, if the

2 Chamber is minded to take action on this, we would certainly hope that a

3 full range of opinions from perhaps more neutral parties may be invoked,

4 and I will again -- now that I have the report, I will speak to my Office

5 and get its position as to whether or not it might seek any of its own

6 independent. However, the Chamber is not advantaged in having been here

7 from the beginning on the dealings on this issue, which in no way is new,

8 and in no way was corroborated by the very lengthy medical reports that

9 came in earlier. This is a person who is aging, and in the normal course

10 of aging certain changes take place. Aggravated, perhaps, as I recall,

11 and again I can only pull it off the top of my head, by other physical

12 maladies. But the timing, I suggest, is the timing of strategy as opposed

13 to the timing of reality.

14 I would ask that if the Chamber is minded to take any action, that

15 it be done contemporaneously with. I can only say the Prosecution, having

16 been -- as the Defence, ordered to move forward is moving forward. Again,

17 with two -- two years plus in provisional release, I find it enormously

18 surprising that in the middle -- 19 days into the trial, we are confronted

19 with this. And I do not trace it back to the December 19th finding of

20 this Chamber. This Chamber, in my view, was not put in a position to make

21 that -- this has a history that predates this panel's arrival.

22 Accordingly, I am not in a position to make positive suggestions now

23 because I also must consider, but I see effectively no evidence that for

24 purposes of today or for purposes of - until further, if any are ordered -

25 examinations there cannot be a continuation of the trial. I take as a

Page 1691

1 great professional affront what I perceive to be an extortionate. We will

2 file a complaint. There are certainly rules that apply, and the Defence

3 is free to do what it will, but it certainly will not hold the Prosecution

4 to that type of extortionate comment. And I cannot speak for how the

5 Chamber receives it. But I am very concerned about timing given the

6 entire history, and I will endeavour, if I can find the discussions from

7 earlier 65 ter conferences.

8 If there's anything further -- again, there are matters which

9 arose in the course of a visit to Montenegro at one point about the

10 General's ability to actively try to assist his own Defence, and should

11 these matters have to be brought to bear, the Office of the Prosecutor

12 will endeavour to have the parties who were privy to that do so. I would,

13 of course, want to see more about the testing. That would go more into if

14 other tests are ordered. But I note there is only a psychiatrist's

15 report, there is no psychologist, and I think this is a fairly early-on

16 piece of information. And again, how the Chamber wishes from here to

17 proceed, I cannot address, but I will say these concerns, I believe, are

18 extremely real on the part of the Prosecution.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Can you just make something a little more clear for

20 me, at least, Ms. Somers. Is it that the Prosecution will be seeking to

21 pursue its own medical examination, or is it that the Prosecution will

22 consider whether it will seek to take that course?

23 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I would have to ask for a brief break

24 and speak with my Office, who has not also had a chance -- to not just

25 peruse, but study the report. This is not something that we would -- as

Page 1692

1 I'm sure it was difficult for Your Honours in the hallway to have a review

2 of this. This is not something that one reads lightly. I would ask for

3 an opportunity to discuss it, and I believe it is right for the Chamber

4 also to seek its reports, and of course, if need be, have a full-blown

5 competency hearing.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Is there anything further,

7 Mr. Petrovic?

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, not at this point.

9 Our request remains. We believe that the Trial Chamber should urgently

10 rule on this matter. And the other thing I wish to point out is that our

11 medical expert can appear before this Court and testify whenever the Trial

12 Chamber deems necessary as to all the individual aspects of this expert

13 report. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE PARKER: We propose to adjourn temporarily. It may be five

16 minutes, ten minutes, to give some consideration to the submissions that

17 we have had.

18 --- Break taken at 9.36 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 9.53 a.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber has received this morning a report of a

21 medical expert, Dr. Lecic, which is dated yesterday and which we believe

22 is being filed in the course of this morning. This report is of an

23 examination principally of the mental condition of the accused, Pavle

24 Strugar. And in the report, conclusions are expressed which indicate that

25 in the opinion of the doctor, the accused man is not able adequately to

Page 1693












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Page 1694

1 follow the proceedings and to instruct counsel. This report raises, of

2 course, issues of considerable significance to the future conduct of this

3 trial; indeed, the future conduct of any proceedings concerning the

4 accused.

5 The Chamber has had only limited opportunity to study the report.

6 It is not the only medical evidence that the Chamber has received. At an

7 early stage of the trial, the previous medical history and reports

8 relating to it of the accused were placed before the Chamber, and we have,

9 over some time, been able to examine them; and indeed, we gave a ruling in

10 respect of them on the 19th of December last year. What is now before us

11 clearly raises new issues and is an expression of opinion which, if well

12 founded and accepted, would indicate that the trial may not be able to

13 proceed, at least at the present time.

14 Because the report is only now in the process of being filed and

15 has not been able to be considered in depth by either the Chamber or the

16 Prosecution, it is our view that we should not immediately come to any

17 view upon it. Indeed, we would expect that when the Prosecution has had

18 an opportunity to consider the report, the Prosecution may well wish

19 itself to advance much more detailed submissions than has been possible

20 this morning, and we would expect that the Prosecution will itself give

21 consideration to the question whether it should pursue its own medical

22 examination of the accused.

23 The Chamber, too, once it has heard the Prosecution's position on

24 that, will need to give consideration to the issue whether it should

25 itself order a medical examination of the accused man.

Page 1695

1 In addition to this report, as I've indicated, the Chamber has had

2 and has studied the detailed material that was provided by the Defence as

3 to the previous medical history of the accused man. What is in this

4 report is not something quite novel; it clearly has its foundations in

5 much that was in the earlier reports. And they date back two and more

6 years, and it is, therefore, of concern to the Chamber that this matter

7 should now be raised in this way when there clearly was notice of the

8 possibility and very, very adequate time for it to have been pursued by

9 the Defence before this trial commenced.

10 While that does not mean that we should ignore the report now, and

11 it certainly will not be ignored, it is a fact relevant to our

12 consideration of how we should deal immediately with the report and its

13 consequences for the conduct of the hearing. We also take into account

14 our previous knowledge from the detailed materials that were placed before

15 us by the Defence, and also the experience the Chamber has had of the past

16 19 days of the hearing of this trial and the degree to which, when it was

17 appropriate, the accused has participated, including his own personal

18 submissions to the Chamber.

19 In light of all those matters, it is our view that we should not

20 today interrupt the continuation of the hearing. We would propose to

21 continue hearing evidence and to call on the Prosecution to indicate its

22 more studied position either tomorrow morning or the following morning,

23 depending on what Ms. Somers indicates to me would be the time she would

24 need to give consideration to the Prosecution position.

25 Now, we take that course while very mindful of the significance of

Page 1696

1 the possible effects of the report, as Mr. Petrovic has put to us very

2 clearly. But we do say, having regard to the matters I've indicated, in

3 particular, the past medical reports and the apparent condition and degree

4 of participation of the accused in the trial to date, and in particular,

5 we do so on the basis that if it should prove to be the case after there

6 has been an adequate time to consider the report and any other medical

7 reports that prove appropriate, if it should prove to be the case that the

8 accused man is in truth not fit to continue with the hearing, well, then,

9 the trial would have to come to an end and there would be no ultimate

10 injustice; whereas, if at the end of our consideration of all this -- the

11 present and any future material that is placed before us we should reach

12 the conclusion that the trial can properly proceed, we will not have lost

13 time unnecessarily. And as was indicated a little time ago in the course

14 of these brief reasons, the timing and circumstance of the way this issue

15 is raised has been effective. We've taken into account in determining how

16 best to proceed today.

17 For those reasons, therefore, we would propose to continue with

18 evidence today. And until we hear the further submissions of the

19 Prosecution, and we will decide then on what course should be taken.

20 Ms. Somers, are you in a position to indicate today whether you would be

21 ready tomorrow with your more considered position?

22 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I can, if the Chamber

23 would permit oral submissions, I would be grateful. And I have begun the

24 process, but of course we would need to study it more hopefully this

25 afternoon with my superiors. Thank you.

Page 1697

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Well, that being the case, then, we'll

2 continue on the basis that I've indicated, Mr. Petrovic, and Mr. Rodic,

3 with the hearing today. And we will hear further submissions on this

4 matter tomorrow morning.

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

6 I merely wish to have the following clarification from you: Will you make

7 a final ruling as to whether our motion has been accepted or not tomorrow

8 after you've heard more detailed submissions, or have you already taken a

9 decision? If such a decision has been made, we would like to file an

10 appeal. I would like that clarification, please.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, we haven't taken a final decision.

12 And it will depend upon the submission that is made tomorrow whether we

13 make a final decision tomorrow. It may well be necessary for time for

14 further medical examination, and it may be necessary for us to then

15 consider the reports, or even to hear the various medical experts before

16 reaching a final decision.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies, first of

18 all. In my understanding, there are two things that are quite distinct.

19 One is your final ruling concerning the essence of this problem, that is,

20 whether General Strugar is able to follow proceedings and to continue or

21 not. That's what I want to know really, and that's something you've

22 commented on.

23 Secondly, the other thing I want to know about is your decision on

24 our motion to discontinue evidence pending final clarification. That

25 decision, as I understand it, will be taken tomorrow. Am I correct in

Page 1698

1 assuming that, Your Honour?

2 JUDGE PARKER: Our decision today is to continue with evidence

3 today. We will decide tomorrow whether or not we should continue with

4 further evidence or whether an adjournment is necessary. We cannot be

5 confident whether we can make a final decision on even that issue

6 tomorrow, until we've heard the submissions and given more attention to

7 the report that we've received.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. Thank you.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers, is it convenient to proceed now?

11 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls as its next

12 witness Colonel Colm Doyle.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Colonel. If you would be able to

15 take the affirmation that will be handed to you now.

16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

17 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Please be seated.

19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.


21 Examined by Ms. Somers:

22 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers, when you're ready.

23 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24 Q. Colonel Doyle, would you give your full name, please?

25 A. My name is Colonel Colm Doyle of the Irish defence forces.

Page 1699












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Page 1700

1 Q. And your date of birth, sir.

2 A. The 1st of May 1947.

3 Q. And can you tell us, please, your current position, and then I

4 will work backward to your military and other background.

5 A. My current appointment is chief of staff of the military division

6 at the department of peacekeeping operations, United Nations headquarters,

7 New York city.

8 Q. Colonel Doyle, how long have you held that position?

9 A. Approximately two weeks.

10 Q. Prior to your assumption of the position, what was your post?

11 A. I was a serving colonel in the Irish Defence Forces, and my

12 appointment was director of reserve forces.

13 Q. Going a little bit backward from, let's say, 1964, could you run

14 us through, please, your career as a military officer from the time you

15 joined the army up to the most -- the appointment just prior to your

16 becoming chief of staff.

17 A. I became an officer cadet in the Irish Defence Forces in 1964. I

18 was commissioned as second lieutenant in 1966. I was promoted to the rank

19 of captain in 1973. Promoted to the rank of commandant, which is major,

20 in 1979. Promoted to the rank of lieutenant colonel in 1995, and promoted

21 to the rank of Colonel in the year 2000.

22 Q. Can you tell us, please, where or in which territories you may

23 have served over the course of your military career?

24 A. I served in a variety of appointments, both command and staff,

25 throughout the various ranks I held in the Irish Defence Forces. In

Page 1701

1 relation to my service abroad, I first served abroad as a member of the

2 United Nations force in Cyprus in 1968 as a platoon commander. In 1978 I

3 served with the 1st Irish unit in service with the United Nations'

4 infantry force in Lebanon. I held the rank of captain. From 1984 to

5 1986, I was a military observer with the United Nations truce supervision

6 in the Middle East based in Syria, and subsequently in Lebanon where I

7 became the senior operations officer of observer group Lebanon. I've

8 served as a battalion commander with the United Nations forces in Lebanon

9 from 1997 to 1998. And for 12 months commencing on the 1st of October

10 1991, I served in the former Yugoslavia, initially as a member of the

11 European community monitor mission in the Republic of Bosnia, and

12 thereafter as personal representative to the chairman of the international

13 peace conference, Lord Peter Carrington from April 1992 until I finished

14 at the end of October 1992.

15 Q. Colonel Doyle, did you have a head of mission position for the

16 European community monitor mission during your course in the former

17 Yugoslavia? And if so, what was the area and when were you appointed?

18 A. I was in the former Yugoslavia in the Republic of Bosnia for

19 approximately six weeks. And in around the 24th of November, I was asked

20 would I take over the appointment as head of the monitor mission for the

21 Republic of Bosnia based in Sarajevo. And I held that appointment until

22 approximately the end of -- or towards the end of March 1992.

23 Q. When you say Bosnia, you're referring to Bosnia and Herzegovina

24 territory?

25 A. Yes, I am.

Page 1702

1 Q. Now, before we proceed, can you tell us, please, your formal

2 education, the degrees, if any, that you hold and where they were earned

3 and when, please.

4 A. Well, I'm a graduate of the Irish Defence Forces cadet school.

5 I'm a graduate of the Irish Defence Forces infantry school, and I'm a

6 graduate of the Irish Defence Forces command and staff school. I also

7 hold a masters degree in international studies which I attained from the

8 University of Limerick in Ireland in 1994.

9 Q. Are there any particular areas in which you may have placed

10 emphasis in the course of your peacekeeping operations?

11 A. I suppose I had particular experience in the Middle East, having

12 been there on three occasions. And I would say that when I served in

13 Bosnia, I had a general understanding of the developments which took place

14 in 1991, 1992.

15 Q. Do you have any background in mediation or negotiation or such

16 skills?

17 A. One of the principles of the United Nations' operations is the

18 ability to be able to mediate and negotiate because particularly when I

19 served in the Middle East from 1984 to 1986, I was an unarmed military

20 observer. Where the officers of the United Nations are used to a great

21 extent by military officers who rely on mediation and negotiation, liaison

22 work, and that's where I had most of my experience. And one of the

23 fundamental principles of service with the United Nations is the degree of

24 impartiality which must be exercised at all times.

25 Q. Thank you. And just one more question ancillary to that: Have

Page 1703

1 you participated yourself or had any direct involvement in cease-fire

2 negotiations throughout any of the service you've had?

3 A. I was involved considerably in the former Yugoslavia in cease-fire

4 negotiations, particularly in the city of Sarajevo. I was also

5 instrumental in the hostage negotiations to secure the release of

6 President Ilija Izetbegovic in early May 1992.

7 Q. Let us turn your attention, now, to the autumn of 1991. What were

8 you doing at that point in time?

9 A. Is this prior to service in Yugoslavia?

10 Q. Yes, it is.

11 A. At the time that I was asked would I consider volunteering for

12 Yugoslavia, I was adjutant of the southern Irish brigades' reserve forces.

13 Q. Could you explain, please, what adjutant involves?

14 A. Adjutant would be a staff appointment held by a military officer

15 that deals with such things as personnel, administration, and discipline.

16 Q. How did you first become aware of the need for personnel for the

17 ECMM, for the monitoring mission, to the former Yugoslavia?

18 A. The practice in the Irish Defence Forces is that when there is

19 request made by the international community for the availability of

20 military officers, all officers are asked would they be willing to

21 volunteer for service abroad. I would have been one of those. And then

22 the list would have been examined. The Defence forces had called us to

23 ascertain the qualities and the experiences of those officers, and based

24 on the approval of those files they would have made their decision. In

25 that case, I was one of three officers selected for service as a monitor

Page 1704

1 with the European community monitoring mission.

2 Q. Are you able to in a very brief manner summarise the qualities

3 that you found yourself to have possessed that would have ensured your

4 having been selected for such a post?

5 A. Well, I can only surmise that because I had a successful service

6 in Cypress, in Lebanon, and in the Middle East from 1984 to 1986, it was

7 deemed that I was suitable to serve in another mission area because a lot

8 of what was going to be done we assumed in Yugoslavia was similar to what

9 you would be doing as a military observer with the United Nations, which

10 was basically observing and reporting and getting involved in liaison work

11 and mediation. So I believed I had those attributes which was required

12 for service in the former Yugoslavia.

13 Q. Did you have any inclination one way or the other to any of the

14 factions or parties involved?

15 A. Not specifically. We would have had a general understanding of

16 the general background. We would have received a briefing at Defence

17 Forces headquarters, but it would have been very general in nature and

18 nothing very specific.

19 Q. And what was -- did you work to any prescribed mandate?

20 A. Well, the mandate that I worked under when I was in Bosnia was the

21 mandate that was generally prescribed for the monitor mission which was

22 that we were to use our good offices to persuade the parties to desist

23 from any conflict, that any progress to be made was to be made by

24 mediation and negotiation, and if conflict were to break out that we

25 should be there to monitor it in an independent and impartial fashion.

Page 1705












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1706

1 And also, to attempt to limit the conflict as best we could.

2 Q. So your -- how would you encapsulate your duty as a monitor? How

3 would you have understood it to be?

4 A. And basically, my duties as a monitor would have been to be

5 deployed to a particular area within the area of operations, which in my

6 case was Bosnia; to make sure that we met with all the parties; that would

7 have included military, religious leaders; to meet with anybody who wished

8 to have conduct with us; to be able to indicate to them what the reason

9 that the monitor mission was there; and also to be able to report back

10 accurately on those aspects of meetings that were deemed to be appropriate

11 and should be reported on.

12 Q. Now, you had, as I understand it, specific areas of

13 responsibility, regions. And your particular region was head of mission,

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15 A. Yes I started off as a member of the monitor mission in a specific

16 area, which was in Banja Luka. But as I said, after about six weeks, I

17 was asked to take over as the regional head of the mission for Sarajevo,

18 which meant that I was covering the entire Republic of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina.

20 Q. What did you feel appropriate as your first duties to carry out,

21 upon assuming the job, the position of head of mission, for ECMM in Bosnia

22 and Herzegovina?

23 A. Well, as head of the mission, I was anxious to ensure that I would

24 make myself available to anybody who wished to contact me. I was also

25 anxious that I would pay a visit to all the areas within Bosnia where we

Page 1707

1 had what we call monitor teams deployed. And also, that I would make

2 myself known to the local leadership and to the senior officers of the JNA

3 Army, and to be able to make myself known to them and what we were about.

4 Q. Were you there as a military -- when you made these visits, were

5 you there as a military person, or how did you perceive your role?

6 A. I was there as head of the monitor mission. I happened to be

7 military, but I was not there because I was a military person.

8 Q. Were other heads of mission necessarily having military

9 background?

10 A. No. The two previous heads of the mission for Bosnia were

11 diplomats from Britain. I was the first military head of the mission for

12 Bosnia. I did not wear a uniform. I was addressed as Mr. Doyle. My own

13 staff addressed me as chief. I was never addressed by my military rank

14 for the period I served there.

15 Q. Bosnia-Herzegovina is comprised obviously of a number of

16 municipalities. Did you also decide to pay a visit to some of the

17 municipalities bordering other republics?

18 A. At the first municipalities that I visited were the areas up

19 towards Banja Luka. This was the area of my -- what we call the area of

20 operations. When I went to Sarajevo, I deemed that it would be

21 appropriate to visit any of the municipalities where I was asked to visit,

22 and particularly those where we had teams deployed. Some of those were in

23 areas which were dominated by Serbs, some by Croats, and some by Muslim

24 communities. And I felt it was important that we be seen to be impartial

25 by visiting all of the areas and by having our liaison teams deployed to

Page 1708

1 the different areas. And this I set out about to do in the first few

2 weeks of my appointment as head of the mission.

3 Q. Thank you. I want to just confirm, the headquarters where you

4 served as head of mission for ECMM was in which particular city?

5 A. The headquarters were in the Sarajevo.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, in the course of getting out, on the 6th of

7 December, I want to ask you if you held -- where were you, and if you were

8 was preceded by any meetings before that, if you could please explain to

9 the Chamber what you were doing on behalf of ECMM on that day or just

10 prior.

11 A. This was approximately the second or maybe the third week of my

12 command, and I decided I would visit the teams that we had deployed down

13 in the area of Mostar --

14 Q. Forgive me, Colonel. 6th December 1991. I apologise for not

15 having given you the time frame.

16 A. Early in December I decided that I had -- would make an

17 arrangements to visit the teams that we had deployed in the city of

18 Mostar. So I contacted the team down there to say that I was going to

19 come. I wanted to meet with them. And I also decided that it would be

20 appropriate that I would meet on those visits which I did at various

21 times, the senior JNA military commanders. I was informed by the team

22 that the senior JNA commander in that area was General Strugar, and an

23 arrangement was made for me to meet with him. And that was to be on the

24 6th of December 1991.

25 Q. And did you, in fact, meet General Strugar in that area on the 6th

Page 1709

1 of December 1991?

2 A. Yes, I met with General Strugar on the 6th of December, having met

3 with some of the leadership of the city of Mostar earlier that day.

4 Q. Did you know at the time what General Strugar's area of

5 responsibility would have included, what particular geographical points?

6 A. I was aware of the fact that the -- that his command area would

7 have included the areas of Trebinje and Bileca. Beyond that, I had no

8 idea how far his command extended.

9 Q. Did you know then at the time whether or not his area of

10 responsibility might have included Dubrovnik on the territory of Croatia?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 Q. How did you travel to meet General Strugar?

13 A. I travelled in a car that was allotted to the monitor mission. So

14 I travelled by road from Mostar to Trebinje.

15 Q. And was there a particular -- excuse me, Trebinje is in what

16 particular republic?

17 A. Trebinje, in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. And Mostar also?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you have a -- I call it a working arrangement or a modus

21 operandi for these meetings? Did you have a logistical way of getting to

22 numbers of persons, for example?

23 A. When I would go on a trip of this nature, at my own instigation, I

24 travelled in a car belonging to the monitor mission. I would bring -- I

25 would have a driver, one of my own drivers from the mission, and I would

Page 1710

1 bring with me my senior operations officers and my interpreter. So

2 normally, I would have travelled in a car carrying four people, including

3 myself.

4 Q. Did you have travel alone or on your own?

5 A. Never.

6 Q. And why would that have been?

7 A. Well, one of the principles under which we travelled was that we

8 were given a guarantee of freedom of movement and safety and security, and

9 in military terms safety and security would indicate that you should never

10 travel on your own, as well as that if I had meetings with people, I

11 always wanted to have somebody else, a minimum of one other person with me

12 who would be able to verify or who would be there as a witness to who I

13 had met and what I had said. So it made sense to go with somebody else

14 from the mission. This, I always did.

15 Q. Based on what you've just told us, who was travelling with you on

16 the 6th of December?

17 A. I had an Italian driver. I don't remember his name. I also had

18 my senior operations officer, who was an Irish Army commandant, Dermot

19 Coogan, and I had my interpreter who was with me that day, a man who was

20 allotted to the monitor mission. His name was Darko Ivic.

21 Q. On the way to the place where the meeting with General Strugar

22 took place, did you hear anything out of the ordinary by any chance?

23 A. On the route from Mostar towards Trebinje, we were aware that we

24 could hear some artillery firing going on. Where it was going to or where

25 it was coming from, I have no idea.

Page 1711












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1712

1 Q. Are you able to give an approximation of time as to when you met

2 with General Strugar?

3 A. Yes, as far as I can recollect, and on consulting my diary, I met

4 with General Strugar approximately at 12.00 on the 6th of December 1991.

5 Q. Is that toward midday, when you say 12.00?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. I would ask, in your statement to the OTP, one of the attachments

8 was a -- an excerpt from the diary.

9 MS. SOMERS: And I would simply ask at this point to have it

10 passed out, to distribute. It also is up on the screen, Your Honours, on

11 Sanction, to be of help.

12 If I could ask for it, perhaps, to be magnified. I find it a bit

13 difficult to read.

14 Q. Colonel, looking at a document, do you recognise this document?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. What is it, please?

17 A. It's an entry in my personal diary for Friday, December the 6th,

18 1991.

19 Q. And what does it say? Perhaps you can decipher your writing.

20 A. 0830 hours, met with the mayor of Mostar. 1200 hours met with

21 General Strugar (three star) and after that I've written "bad in

22 Dubrovnik". And after that I've written back to Mostar, and overnight.

23 Q. When did you make this entry? I notice it said "met with General

24 Strugar"?

25 A. I can't remember exactly, but it was my practice to make -- to

Page 1713

1 fill in the diary the evening or in -- the day after I would have carried

2 out these events.

3 MS. SOMERS: I would ask to have this exhibit identified and

4 marked for identification and moved into evidence, please.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, did you say you wanted it marked for

6 identification?

7 MS. SOMERS: And moved into evidence.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Or as an exhibit?

9 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry, as an exhibit.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received as an exhibit.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be P46.


13 Q. Colonel, when you got to the location, and if you can give us a

14 rough idea of where it was that you met with the general, what did you

15 find? Were you immediately received? Were you expected?

16 A. The location to the best of my memory was on the outskirts or very

17 close to Trebinje. When I arrived at the location, the general was not

18 immediately available. And I went in with a -- with my operations

19 officers and my interpreter. We were met inside the building by a

20 lieutenant colonel who was interpreting for the general. This lieutenant

21 colonel I had met before when I had met General Kukanjac in Sarajevo. He

22 was the interpreter there as well.

23 Q. Excuse me, who was General Kukanjac?

24 A. General Kukanjac was the senior JNA commander in the city of

25 Sarajevo. I'm sorry

Page 1714

1 Q. Continue, please.

2 A. So when we went into the general's office, his interpreter

3 informed us that the general was preoccupied. There seemed to have been

4 quite a lot of activity going on. I wasn't sure at that stage whether the

5 general was available to speak with me. And I mentioned to the

6 interpreter that if the general wasn't available, then I would leave. He

7 then asked me if I would stay for another few minutes, and he would

8 ascertain. And about five minutes later he came back to tell me that the

9 general would meet with me. And all together, I think we waited for

10 approximately ten minutes before the general came in to meet us.

11 Q. Were any photographs taken at this particular meeting?

12 A. Yes. At the end of the meeting, I asked the general if he would

13 pose for a photograph, and he agreed to do this. And I have a photograph

14 taken which included the general, myself, and my senior operations

15 officer.

16 MS. SOMERS: Just ask if I could please -- I believe it will be up

17 on the Sanction screen, but I will also distribute a photocopy, if I may.

18 Q. Colonel Doyle, do you recognise what is in front of you, please?

19 A. Yes, I do. I recognise it is the photograph that was taken in the

20 company of General Strugar on the 6th of December 1991.

21 Q. Okay?

22 MS. SOMERS: I would ask that this be admitted into evidence,

23 please, and I will discuss it a bit later.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. It will be received.


Page 1715

1 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

2 Q. Colonel Doyle, when you initially met with General Strugar, had

3 you ever met with him before?

4 A. No, I had not.

5 Q. How did General Strugar appear when he walked into whatever room

6 it was you were to have met with him?

7 A. Well, I felt that the general had been preoccupied because of what

8 his interpreter had said to me. And his interpreter had said that he

9 would be made available, but it would be for a relatively short period of

10 time, which was unusual because most of the meetings I had used to go on

11 for quite considerable time. So that was the impression I received at the

12 time, of his demeanour.

13 Q. Did you observe anything about the general in his demeanour,

14 perhaps?

15 A. Nothing other than getting the impression that he may have been a

16 little bit preoccupied. That was my general feeling.

17 Q. Okay. Was he -- was there an air of calmness about the general?

18 A. Well, it was the first time I had met the general, so I'm not

19 too -- you know, I'm not too sure whether I would call it that he was

20 calm. But I got -- I did get the impression that he was preoccupied and

21 somewhat restless.

22 Q. Now, did this perception of yours persist throughout your later

23 conversation?

24 A. Well, the content of what he said to me led me to believe that he

25 had been preoccupied, yes.

Page 1716

1 Q. And did you feel he was focussing on the matters you were

2 discussing?

3 A. I think he was being courteous to me, but maybe he was focussing

4 on other matters. But I'm not too sure.

5 Q. How did you introduce yourself to the general?

6 A. I introduced myself by name. I told him who I was representing,

7 what the organisation was, and I told him in general terms what the

8 organisation that I represented was trying to achieve.

9 Q. How did the meeting progress from that point?

10 A. Well, after I had said this to the general, he spoke some words.

11 And the interpreter informed me that the general had been quite angry

12 because what was termed to me as paramilitaries on the territory of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina had attacked some of his troops, the troops that were

14 under General Strugar's command. This was something he would not tolerate

15 and that he responded by firing on the city of Dubrovnik.

16 Q. What was your reaction to hearing this? What were your initial

17 reactions?

18 A. Well, I was taken by surprise at this because I felt it was rather

19 unusual for somebody to make an admission to me that he had taken action

20 against a city.

21 Q. And what exactly was it that surprised you at his having said

22 that? Why?

23 A. Well, I suppose in my 40 years of military experience, it was the

24 first time that anybody had said to me that they had ordered fire to be

25 brought to bear on a city.

Page 1717

1 Q. What is it about firing on a city that would have perhaps caused

2 some concern to you, or did cause concern to you?

3 A. Well, I was concerned because it was my view that firing on a city

4 indicated that there would be civilians there, and there was property

5 there, and that firing on a city was nothing that could be very accurate.

6 And therefore, there might have been casualties or there might have been

7 damage to property. And this actually surprised me.

8 Q. Did you get any sense of a connection between what you say the

9 general said about firing on Dubrovnik and the issue of paramilitaries?

10 What was your perception of the linkage?

11 A. Well, my perception of the linkage was that the reason why he

12 fired on the city was because paramilitaries on the territory of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina had interfered or attacked the troops under his

14 command. And this was his response to that action.

15 JUDGE PARKER: May I intrude, Colonel, to make it clear one

16 matter.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Was it the -- a member of the general's staff that

19 informed you of this attack and his response? Or was this interpreted as

20 the general spoke it to you?

21 THE WITNESS: To me, this was the interpretation of what the

22 general had said which was spoken to me by the military interpreter. In

23 other words, the interpreter that was acting on behalf of General Strugar.

24 My own interpreter was not involved in this conversation.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Was the general present?

Page 1718

1 THE WITNESS: Yes, he was, Your Honour.


3 Q. Sorry. How long had you been serving as a soldier, if you had to

4 count numerically?

5 A. Well, I started to be a soldier in 1964, and this was in 1991. So

6 I would make that I think 27 years, 28 years maybe.

7 Q. In the course of your career as a soldier had you, prior to your

8 meeting with General Strugar and the comment that was made to you by

9 General Strugar, had you ever heard of such a comment being made by a

10 commander?

11 A. No, I had not.

12 Q. Was there any further conversation after that comment was made?

13 A. I don't recall in any great detail, but I do know that the meeting

14 maybe lasted for approximately 25 minutes. The interpreter had made it

15 known to me that it would be a relatively short meeting. I accepted this.

16 And I was just grateful that General Strugar had given the time to meet

17 with me. So as far as I can recollect, we left after about 30 minutes, 25

18 to 30 minutes approximately.

19 Q. If you could be so kind as to go back to P47, which is the

20 photograph.

21 MS. SOMERS: If you could have that back up, please, or if it's

22 still there, turn your attention to it.

23 Q. If the general had been in the mood in which you described, is

24 there any particular reason why he agreed to have his photo taken?

25 A. No. I think it was out of a gesture of courtesy to me because I

Page 1719

1 had asked the general if he would stand in for a photograph because of the

2 significance of the occasion, because I was going around meeting a lot of

3 senior people and I wanted to get a record of this purely for my own

4 diaries. And the general kindly agreed to stand in for the photograph,

5 which took maybe one or two minutes.

6 Q. On the screen, you can see some writing on the photograph. Do you

7 know whose writing that is? And would it be -- what part of the

8 photograph would that writing be visible from?

9 A. Well, I would assume that was on the back of the photograph. It's

10 my writing. I can confirm that.

11 Q. Can you read it, please.

12 A. Well, it's dated the 6th -- it's dated the 6th of December 1991.

13 It says: "Left to right, commandant Dermot Coogan senior operations

14 officer, ECMM, General Strugar, OC of the second operations group, and

15 commandant Colm Doyle, chief, ECMM."

16 Q. OC, what does that abbreviation stand for, please?

17 A. Officer commanding.

18 Q. And how did you come to learn of the name "second operational

19 group"?

20 A. I wasn't too sure at the start when I had taken some notes on the

21 actual military formations, and it was brought to my notice subsequently

22 that, in fact, the command that General Strugar had was of the 2nd

23 Operational Group.

24 Q. Can I ask you if there are any other comments or any other writing

25 on the photograph, let's say, the backside of it, that we were looking at

Page 1720

1 that you were familiar with?

2 A. Yes, on the back of the photograph I had written at that time

3 "with the OC of the 2nd corps group," I had written, "General Strugar on

4 December 6th the day he launched an artillery attack on Dubrovnik killing

5 16."

6 Q. You yourself wrote that?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time?

9 MS. SOMERS: It is, Your Honour. Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE PARKER: We will have a break now for some 20 minutes.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.44 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers.

14 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Colonel Doyle, are you able to give an approximate time when the

16 meeting came to its conclusion.

17 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat that, please.

18 Q. Surely. Could you give an approximate time when the meeting came

19 to its conclusion, approximately?

20 A. As best I can recall, approximately 12.30.

21 Q. Did you record what was said at this meeting anywhere?

22 A. No, I have no record of the meeting.

23 Q. Why would this be? What was special about this type of meeting?

24 A. Well, most of the reports that were made were compiled by the

25 monitor teams that were deployed throughout the republic in various

Page 1721

1 locations. I would give reports that I deemed were appropriate at the

2 time. I suppose on this reason -- on this occasion, the reason I didn't

3 make a report was, number one, I had only just -- this was the first trip

4 I had taken as head of the mission, so I was very new into my assignment.

5 And number two, I was aware that the monitor mission had another mission

6 and operation in Croatia. Its headquarters for that region was in Split.

7 And if any action had been taken against Dubrovnik on that day, I assumed

8 it would have been reported by the mission in Croatia. My mission was

9 specific to the Republic of Bosnia, and I didn't report on anything

10 outside of that.

11 Q. Fine. Now, was there any other public coverage of your meeting

12 that day that you made note of or responded to?

13 A. Yes. I had a -- there were some people from the presidency of

14 Bosnia who were attached as advisors and assistants to the monitor

15 mission. One of them was the interpreter I made mention of who worked for

16 me, Darko Ivic, and another was a lady called Vera Ljubovic who was also

17 an interpreter on some occasions. I had asked her if she would monitor

18 the local press to be able to give me a translation of articles that

19 appeared that referred to the mission. I felt this would be of benefit.

20 It would give me an idea as to how the mission was being perceived. She

21 came to me a few days after my visit, and she gave me a translation of an

22 extract from the daily paper Oslobodenje, and from the daily paper Borba,

23 and she translated the articles from both of those papers and she gave me

24 a copy of the articles -- I'm sorry, she gave me a copy of the

25 translations.

Page 1722

1 MS. SOMERS: If the usher could be good enough to receive copies

2 of two documents.

3 Q. Colonel, both in front of you and on your screen -- you have two

4 documents in front of you, but on your screen you have a document that

5 bears evidence recording number 03340137. Do you recognise that document,

6 or at least the page that's in front of you?

7 A. Yes, I do. They're the pages of the translation from the daily

8 papers.

9 Q. If I could ask my colleague to perhaps enlarge the portion. If

10 you could, please indicate where it says "Borba, December 9th." If you

11 could read that.

12 A. It refers to a Conan Doyle and some question marks. I presume

13 they got my --- first spelling of my name incorrect. Head of the EC

14 Monitor Mission for BH. And the title of it is To avoid war in Bosnia,

15 and it goes on to say as best I can read, head of the EC monitor -- EC

16 mission, met Lieutenant-General P. Strugar in Trebinje. He noted that the

17 authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina showed respect for the JNA. He is aware

18 of the problem created by the kidnapping of a pilot in Mostar. And the

19 authorities -- I can't read the next three words.

20 Q. Mine looks like --

21 A. But the authorities assured him, I think, that the problem would

22 be solved as soon as possible or sorted as soon as possible. Strugar

23 stressed that the Croatian paramilitary forces used BH territory for

24 attacks on the JNA which Mr. D. accepted.

25 Q. Was there something about this report that concerned you or did

Page 1723

1 you take any action on?

2 A. Yes. When I read that translation, I was really annoyed because

3 there was no circumstances under which I accept that Croatian paramilitary

4 forces used BH territory for attacks on the JNA. And I felt that this was

5 either the deliberate or a mistake, because it was General Strugar, my

6 recollection of, who had made that allegation. So accordingly, I made a

7 request through my interpreter that a notification be sent to the paper,

8 and I wished to have a retraction published.

9 Q. And to your knowledge, was such a retraction published --

10 A. To the best of my knowledge, the paper did make a retraction some

11 days later, or a correction some days later.

12 Q. Can I ask you, please to, look at the second document, which is

13 ERN 03340136, and it is on your screens as well, Your Honours.

14 A. Yes, this is the article that appeared or a translation that

15 article allegedly that appeared in the paper Oslobodenje December the 8th.

16 Q. Can you please help us read it.

17 A. It says head of the monitor mission in Trebinje, Mr. Colm Doyle,

18 and then in brackets, N. B., Mr. -- I don't know if it's the same

19 spelling, Doyle, and what looks like -- I can't really read it. It looks

20 like V62. Head of the BH mission met the official of the 2nd Operational

21 Group of the JNA. In the talks, the commander of the 2nd Op Group,

22 Lieutenant-General Strugar mentioned that Croatian paramilitary forces on

23 the territory of BH to attack army units, stressing that -- it looks like

24 stressing that this was war. Mainly done by the people that are no longer

25 under the control of the authorities.

Page 1724

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. That's the best translation, or reading that I can make of it.

3 MS. SOMERS: I'd ask, please, to have these moved into evidence,

4 both documents.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P48 and P48 A for the English

6 version.

7 MS. SOMERS: Is that for both, Madam Registrar? There are two

8 documents there.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Is that okay? One number for both documents

10 because I see the English translation on one page only.

11 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much. That's fine. Thank you.

12 Q. After this meeting, did you ever have occasion to meet personally

13 again with General Strugar; and if so, where?

14 A. I didn't have a personal meeting with General Strugar, but I was

15 asked to facilitate a programme of meetings. I -- the Portuguese head of

16 the monitor mission who was based in Zagreb, his name was Ambassador

17 Salgueiro, and he came to visit the mission area in Bosnia in February of

18 1992. I made a suggested itinerary for that visit, and it included a

19 formal visit to General Strugar's headquarters which I had arranged and

20 which took place. I'm not too sure of the exact date. But Ambassador

21 Salgueiro and all of his officials who came from Bosnia were afforded an

22 opportunity to meet with General Strugar and his officers in his

23 headquarters which I believe at that time were in Bileca. And as head of

24 the monitor mission, I was in attendance for those talks.

25 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. At this time, no further questions,

Page 1725

1 Your Honours.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Somers.

3 Mr. Rodic.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in view of the fact that

5 I had a conversation with the general during the break, I must say the

6 general told me that he recognised himself in the photograph, but that he

7 does not know this witness, Mr. Doyle, nor does he remember him. Bearing

8 in mind the initial discussion that we had this morning in connection with

9 the expert finding that has been submitted and what its potential meaning

10 is, the Defence would propose to have the cross-examination of this

11 witness postponed until your ruling tomorrow, the ruling that you have

12 announced on this material issue which was the subject of our first

13 discussion this morning.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Ms. Somers?

15 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I think that without parsing every

16 aspect of what my learned colleague has just said, the fact of recognition

17 of himself in a photo perhaps has some implications, but that the

18 cross-examination should, in fact, proceed in that the issues are clear,

19 the matters have been presented much earlier on by submissions under the

20 Rules of 66 -- not just A1, but A2, and there has been ample opportunity

21 to prepare this witness for this cross-examination. It has been no secret

22 that this man was going to appear. I see no basis whatsoever for not

23 continuing, and the Chamber's earlier ruling, I believe, covers this and

24 envisages this particular eventuality.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

Page 1726

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic, our view is in accordance with our

3 earlier decision and for that reason, you should proceed with your

4 cross-examination now. You clearly have instructions, that the general

5 does not recognise this witness, and you cross-examine on that basis, if

6 necessary. Thank you.

7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I wonder if it would help you if you had the

9 lectern, Mr. Rodic.

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I was just about to ask for the

11 lectern to be given. Thank you.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

13 Q. Mr. Doyle, my name is Goran Rodic. I'm an attorney-at-law, and I

14 will ask you a number of questions on behalf of the accused,

15 General Strugar. Can you please tell me exactly when you arrived in the

16 former Yugoslavia as part of your mission.

17 A. I arrived in the former Yugoslavia, to the best of my

18 recollection, on the 1st of October 1991.

19 Q. Can you tell me where exactly you arrived the first time you came.

20 A. I flew from Ireland into Austria, and I went by car from Austria

21 into Zagreb in Croatia, which was the headquarters of the monitor mission.

22 Q. Can you tell me how long you were in Zagreb and what you did

23 there.

24 A. I was in Zagreb for approximately eight days during which time I

25 received briefings from the headquarters of the mission as to the -- what

Page 1727

1 the mission was about. There was a delay in moving out of Zagreb because

2 there was a cease-fire being negotiated between the head -- the monitor

3 mission, who was Ambassador Dirk van Houten and General Raseta on behalf

4 of the JNA. And thereafter I was initially deployed to Belgrade. I was

5 in Belgrade for approximately two days, and then I was deployed to the

6 city of Sarajevo, which was the headquarters of the monitor mission for

7 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. Can you tell me about the briefing in Zagreb. More specifically,

9 who was it that briefed you on the situation in the former Yugoslavia at

10 the time? Probably you were also briefed on the problems that the mission

11 would be likely to encounter in its work as well as its tasks. Can you

12 tell us more specifically about the briefing.

13 A. I do not recall who gave us the briefing, but most of the monitors

14 who arrived were given general information as to what the mission was

15 about.

16 Q. What was the mission about?

17 A. The mission was to attempt to use the influence of the mission to

18 ensure that conflict would be avoided in the republics and that we would

19 attempt to influence that as best we could; and that if conflict were to

20 spread to the republics, that we would do the best we could do contain it.

21 It was inherent in that that we would accurately reflect in an impartial

22 manner the events that were taking place.

23 Q. I understood what the task of your mission was, but I don't think

24 you answered my question related to the briefing that you had in Zagreb.

25 You don't remember who provided you it, but my assumption is that you were

Page 1728

1 given information on the situation on the ground where you were about to

2 go and work. Isn't that correct?

3 A. I was given no information in relation to the situation on the

4 ground because the decision was not made at that stage as to where I would

5 be working.

6 Q. Can you then tell me what you did over those eight days you spent

7 in Zagreb. Were you on some sort of a standby waiting to be sent

8 somewhere, without any information whatsoever as to where you were being

9 sent, or what problems you were likely to face on the ground?

10 A. In essence, yes, that was the case.

11 Q. Had you ever been to the former Yugoslavia before then?

12 A. No, I had not.

13 Q. Were you familiar with the social and political situation and

14 structure of the former Yugoslavia, how the country worked?

15 A. Not to any great degree, no.

16 Q. When you say "not to any great degree," could we perhaps also put

17 it this way: You had very little knowledge of the actual situation?

18 A. I believe I had sufficient knowledge to be able to fulfil any

19 function that was given to me.

20 Q. When you arrived in Yugoslavia, did you know which was the legal

21 armed force under the then constitution of the former Yugoslavia and under

22 the relevant laws?

23 A. I was aware of the fact that the Federal Army, the JNA, was a

24 legal army of the Federation of Yugoslavia.

25 Q. Did you know if there were any other military police or other

Page 1729

1 armed formations present on the ground in the former Yugoslavia? That's

2 in addition to the JNA.

3 A. For the eight days that I was in Zagreb, I had a general

4 understanding of the overall situation, that there was unrest, for

5 example, in the Republic of Slovenia, that the monitor mission was

6 deployed up there, that an agreement had been made to monitor the

7 withdrawal of the JNA who were going to move out of Slovenia. And the

8 situation both military and political was developing as I was there;

9 therefore, the situation changed quite rapidly. I was aware in general

10 terms of what was going on. But nothing specifically.

11 Q. While you were in Zagreb at the headquarters of your mission, was

12 there a siege of JNA army barracks at the time? Was the siege underway?

13 Did the mission based in Zagreb have any tasks related to this developing

14 situation?

15 A. My understanding at that stage was that the EC monitor mission was

16 attempting to facilitate the lifting of the sieges on the various military

17 barracks in that location.

18 Q. You said the task of the mission was to use its influence to avoid

19 conflict in the republics. Is that correct?

20 A. Well, I would like to correct myself there. I said the task of

21 the mission was to use its influence to avoid the spreading of conflict in

22 the republics. In other words, that the mission wasn't necessarily to

23 avoid conflict, but that the parties were to attempt to avoid conflict

24 between themselves.

25 Q. What were the republics where this situation was at the time you

Page 1730

1 arrived?

2 A. I was aware that there was unrest in the Republic of Slovenia, and

3 that it was gradually moving towards Croatia.

4 Q. Unrest in the Republic of Slovenia, you say. When was that?

5 A. That was around the time that I went to former Yugoslavia, and the

6 time before that.

7 Q. This is a very general time frame that you've just given us. Can

8 you please try to be more specific.

9 A. No, I cannot.

10 Q. Is it that you don't know, or you don't remember?

11 A. It is more likely that I don't remember.

12 Q. Can you tell me who the parties were. How could conflict arise in

13 Croatia at the time you arrived?

14 A. We were subject to a considerable amount of propaganda when we

15 arrived in Croatia; and therefore, I was not totally au fait with the

16 situation knowing that I was not going to be staying in Croatia, knowing

17 that I was going to be deployed either in Serbia or Bosnia. One of the

18 reasons why I went out to the former Yugoslavia was that there was a

19 decision made within the monitor mission to increase the size of the

20 mission because there was a strong likelihood of the mission deploying

21 down to Bosnia. Therefore, there was a strong likelihood that I would be

22 sent to Bosnia. And therefore, I wasn't totally concerned with the

23 situation in Croatia.

24 Q. Would I be right if I said that you were not familiar with the

25 situation in Croatia during the eight days you spent there in Zagreb.

Page 1731

1 A. I wasn't to any great detail, no.

2 Q. Can you tell me more about the propaganda that you were subjected

3 to, as you say, during your stay in Zagreb.

4 A. On the ground floor of the hotel, there was an office which was

5 run by the Croatian authorities, and from time to time they would give out

6 periodicals and reports, and these reports would be placed outside the

7 bedrooms of some of the monitors. Certainly outside the bedroom I was in.

8 And I believe inherent in that was an attempt to give a report of the

9 ongoing situation the way that the Croatian authorities would have liked

10 it to have been.

11 Q. What was your impression based on, if a moment ago you told us

12 that you were not specifically familiar with the situation in Croatia to

13 any great detail? Why did you have the impression that they were

14 spreading their own view of the developments that they were carrying out,

15 propaganda?

16 A. Because I didn't ask for a copy of their material, but it was

17 given to me in any case.

18 Q. Was this the only reason you had that led you to the conclusion

19 you've just told us about?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were there any references to Dubrovnik in those materials that you

22 looked at?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How many of those bulletins did you see while you were in Zagreb,

25 roughly speaking?

Page 1732

1 A. Maybe three or four.

2 Q. Those bulletins, do you remember if they contained references to

3 other places, to clashes, to problems on the ground, or anything of that

4 nature?

5 A. No, I don't recall.

6 Q. So after eight days in Zagreb, you leave for Belgrade. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where you stayed for two days. Can you tell us where precisely,

10 who you contacted there, what you did there. What was your brief in

11 Belgrade?

12 A. A convoy of monitors left Sarajevo to go to Belgrade. After we

13 were there, we waited to find out how many of the monitors would stay in

14 Belgrade and how many would go on to Sarajevo. We were informed by the

15 head of the monitor mission in Belgrade that some of us would be selected

16 to move to Sarajevo where the mission was to be expanded. The day after I

17 arrived in Belgrade, I was informed that I would be one of the monitors

18 that would be sent to Sarajevo. Two days after we arrived in Belgrade,

19 the convoy left, including myself, and we arrived into Sarajevo where we

20 became part of the ECMM mission for the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 Q. Can you tell us who the head of mission was in Belgrade?

22 A. I cannot recall his name, no.

23 Q. And who was the head in Zagreb?

24 A. The head of the mission in Zagreb was the ambassador who was from

25 Holland. His name was Dirk van Houten.

Page 1733

1 Q. You found him when he came to Zagreb on the 1st of October?

2 A. I met with him during the period I was in Zagreb. I don't know

3 what date it was.

4 Q. When precisely, then, did you start your mission in Sarajevo? Do

5 you remember the exact date?

6 A. I don't remember the exact date. It's notated in my diary, but I

7 don't have my diary with me at this time.

8 Q. Why is it that you don't have your diary with you?

9 A. I have just taken up an appointment with the United Nations in New

10 York. The diary was part of the shipment of my personal possessions that

11 was on its way to New York. However, when I was called here to the

12 Tribunal, my shipment had not arrived. I assume it's now in a box on the

13 harbour of New York awaiting my return.

14 Q. How many times have you testified before this Tribunal?

15 A. This is the second occasion.

16 Q. In addition to giving direct evidence in the courtroom, did you

17 give any statements, written statements? Did you make any written

18 statements to anyone in relation to your testimony?

19 A. I made out a written statement in 1996.

20 Q. When giving this statement, in view of the many events involved

21 and the length of the period you spent in Bosnia on the mission, were you

22 in a position to make this statement on the basis of your memory only, or

23 did you have to refer to your notes?

24 A. The basis of my statement in 1996 was based on my recollection, on

25 my notes, on documentation which I possessed, and on my diaries.

Page 1734

1 Q. Do you remember in which period in 1996 and where you gave this

2 statement?

3 A. I gave the statement to the Tribunal here in The Hague. I

4 recollect it was approximately June or July of 1996.

5 Q. And when giving this statement, as you said, you used your notes,

6 your diary, and everything else that could help you jog your memory while

7 being interviewed by the investigators. Is that right?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Did you talk to the investigators another time as well in relation

10 to the matters mentioned in your statement?

11 A. I spoke with the Tribunal team in the year 2000 as well, and also

12 in the year 2003.

13 Q. Can you tell me more specifically when it was in 2000 that you

14 talked to them.

15 A. I can't remember exactly what month it was in the year 2000. I

16 was back here in June, July of 2003, and I testified in August 2003.

17 Q. Can you tell me in relation to the year 2000, do you remember who

18 you talked to?

19 A. I can remember some of the people that I spoke with. I have them

20 on record. I don't have the record with me to give exact details.

21 Q. And what about 2003? Can you tell me who you talked to then.

22 A. I talked to the team that were involved in the case against

23 Slobodan Milosevic.

24 Q. Do you know any names?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 1735

1 Q. Can you give us some names, if you remember them.

2 A. One of the names was Linda Patrick.

3 Q. Anybody else?

4 A. I spoke with one of the Prosecutors. I can't recall her name. I

5 spoke with other people during that period that I was here in 2003. I

6 spoke with Susan Somers. I spoke with Richard Kaufman, amongst others.

7 Q. Can you remember when you talked to Ms. Somers and Mr. Kaufman?

8 A. I spoke with them in August 2003.

9 Q. Can you remember at what time you talked to them?

10 A. No, I can't remember exactly what time I talked to them.

11 Q. Do you remember perhaps that that was around noon?

12 A. No, I don't remember that it was about noon.

13 Q. Do you remember whether it was in the morning?

14 A. I think it was in the late morning, but I'm not sure.

15 Q. Was that in August 2003?

16 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.

17 Q. Can you remember which part of the month of August it was?

18 A. It was towards the end of August.

19 Q. During that talk, did you write a statement that had to do with

20 the interview, the conversation that you had?

21 A. I don't understand. Would you repeat the question, please.

22 Q. After the talks you had with the Prosecution towards the end of

23 August last year, 2003, as you said, did you write a statement? Did you

24 sign a statement that embodied the content of the talks you had with them?

25 A. Yes, I signed a statement. I didn't write it.

Page 1736

1 Q. Did you read the statement that you signed?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Did you agree with its content?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. On that occasion, did you have your notes with you and the diary

6 that you referred to?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Did you hand any documents over to the Office of the Prosecutor?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Can you recall what it was that you handed over on that occasion?

11 A. I handed over a photograph that was taken on the 6th of December

12 in the company of General Strugar.

13 Q. Did you hand the original of this photograph over to the Office of

14 the Prosecutor, and do they still have it?

15 A. No, they don't have it. It was taken. It was copied. And it was

16 returned to me.

17 Q. On that occasion, did you write anything down on the photograph?

18 A. On that occasion, I wrote on the photograph the names of the

19 people who appeared in the photograph and signed it.

20 Q. You said that you wrote the names of the people and that you

21 signed that. If I understood you correctly, you did that on the back of

22 the photograph. Would that be right?

23 A. My understanding was that what I written on the back of the

24 photograph was that which I had written after I had met with

25 General Strugar. I'm not too sure whether it was on the same photograph

Page 1737

1 or it was on a similar -- on a document that I articulated the names of

2 the people who were in the photograph. That was done not in 1991, but in

3 the year 2003.

4 Q. Who took this photograph on the 6th of December 1991?

5 A. The photograph was taken by my interpreter, Darko Ivic.

6 Q. Do you remember what kind of camera Darko Ivic had?

7 A. Yes. It was my camera. It was a Minolta.

8 Q. I assume that this is an ordinary camera that would be loaded with

9 film, and then this film is developed and then photographs are made. Is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. After the 6th of December, did you have any other important

13 meetings in the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. I had important meetings in the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina from

15 the time I became chief to the time I left.

16 Q. Am I right if I say that you had everyday activities in the

17 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina that involved a great deal of travel on

18 your part in order to organise meetings and to have meetings held in the

19 area?

20 A. A lot of my meetings were held in Sarajevo. But on occasions, I

21 would travel to meet people that I wished to meet. So yes, there was a

22 certain amount of travel. But it wasn't every day.

23 Q. Did you have your picture taken with anybody else during that

24 period?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 1738

1 Q. With your own camera?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us who it was.

4 A. I had a photograph taken with many people. Sometimes with my own

5 camera, with my own camera specifically I had a photograph taken with the

6 chairman of the international peace conference Lord Peter Carrington; with

7 Lord Carrington's representative who came to Bosnia, who was a Portuguese

8 diplomat, Jose Cutileiro. I had photographs taken with some other

9 military people of the JNA Army, specifically General Jankovic, and I had

10 photographs taken on other occasions.

11 Q. Can you tell me what your motive was to have your picture taken

12 with all these people?

13 A. I was interested in keeping a historical record of my service in

14 former Yugoslavia as head of the monitor mission.

15 Q. During the many meetings that you had, I believe, with the top

16 representatives of the JNA in Bosnia-Herzegovina during that period, did

17 you keep any notes? Did you take any notes?

18 A. I would first of all put an entry into my diary as to who I met on

19 these occasions. And on occasions, I would submit a report on the content

20 of these meetings.

21 Q. And did you write anything in your diary except for the names of

22 persons you were meeting with, time, and place involved, or this

23 particular information pertaining to these persons?

24 A. No, it was of a very general nature. I would put down the name of

25 the person that I met, the date that I met them, and maybe one or two

Page 1739

1 comments. But other than that, no. Some reports I made out were

2 separate, and they would have gone directly to the headquarters of the

3 monitor mission.

4 Q. Did these meetings, did some of them perhaps last longer? Did

5 some of them involve the resolving of particular issues? Were they

6 actually negotiations?

7 A. Most of the meetings were over a prolonged period of time. And

8 yes, on occasions, they involved negotiations.

9 Q. At these meetings, or rather, after a particular meeting with one

10 side, would you have a meeting with the other side and then convey the

11 response of the first side to the other side, and then in turn of the

12 second side to the first side?

13 A. All of the meetings I had with the generals of the federal army

14 and of those that were considerable were all one side. It was a courtesy

15 visit to the commanders of the JNA units throughout the entire republic.

16 All of those meetings were generally one sided where I would meet out of

17 courtesy the commanding officer. I would speak with him, and after those

18 meetings, I wouldn't meet with anybody else.

19 The other meetings that were nonmilitary, it was my practice to

20 meet all sides. Therefore, if I went to a particular opstina, I would

21 meet with, for example, the leaders of the Serb party. I would then meet

22 with the Croats. And then I would meet with the Muslims. It was the

23 practice to meet all sides. So in answer to your question, yes, I spoke

24 with all sides.

25 Q. Did the JNA have a problem with itself? What was the point of

Page 1740

1 these meetings?

2 A. The point of the meetings was to make the mission known to the

3 federal army because the first meeting I had with the first general who

4 was General Kukanjac in Sarajevo, he admitted to me he knew very little

5 about the monitor mission. So I decided that in order to explain to the

6 senior military commanders of the federal army what we were about, I ought

7 to go and visit them. And this is what I set out to do. And I met with

8 the senior commanders in Trebinje, Bihac, Sarajevo, Tuzla.

9 Q. In view of your mission, once you would make these commanders

10 aware of what your mission was, did you receive any requests from the JNA

11 and its representatives?

12 A. I don't remember any specific requests, but I certainly remember

13 some of the issues that I brought up with the commanders. Most of these

14 were criticisms from the non-Serb communities who had certain criticisms

15 of the actions of the federal army.

16 Q. Did the federal army ever complain to you of paramilitary

17 formations, of attacks against their members; that is to say, JNA members,

18 JNA facilities, JNA vehicles? Did they ask for any intervention in that

19 respect?

20 A. Some of the issues that were raised by the federal army would be

21 of that nature, that yes, that paramilitaries from one side or the other

22 were interfering in their movement. Some of these issues that were

23 brought up by the JNA leadership were counter to some of the issues that I

24 had raised with them. For example, that the JNA were arming a lot of the

25 Serb communities. They weren't arming the other communities. That some

Page 1741

1 of the JNA were interfering in the issue of the requirement for

2 conscription or for the call-up, that the JNA were not assisting in the

3 Croat and Muslim communities. And I was aware when I was head of the

4 monitor mission in Bosnia that it was the view of the presidency that they

5 looked upon the presence of the JNA as what they termed "an army of

6 occupation."

7 It was I, as head of the monitor mission, that persuaded the

8 presidency to open up dialogue with the federal army. So over the period

9 of six months, there were many issues that were brought up by me to be

10 addressed by the JNA and vice versa.

11 Q. At these meetings, did the JNA representatives provide you with

12 any information that they had in relation to the activities aimed against

13 the JNA?

14 A. I don't understand by what you mean by the word "any information."

15 Q. Well, for example, did any of the commanders say to you "I'm

16 responsible for such and such a zone, such and such units are under my

17 command; attacks were launched against the members of my particular unit

18 at a particular place at a particular time" and so on and so forth? Did

19 you receive this kind of information from them?

20 A. I never received any information from any JNA commander as to the

21 extent of his zone of operation, nor did I seek it. I certainly would

22 have received reports from JNA commanders that a person or persons were

23 carrying out attacks from time to time. This is what they alleged. I had

24 no proof of this.

25 I think we have to understand that the time I was in Bosnia, there

Page 1742

1 was a conflict going on. So it is inevitable that there would be reports

2 to and fro of various attacks or interference in the JNA. But it was not

3 part of the monitor mission to attempt to ascertain any military

4 information from a JNA formation as to the content of his troops or his

5 area of operations.

6 Q. Since you said that the Bosnian authorities treated the JNA as an

7 occupation force and that you considerably contributed to persuading the

8 Bosnian authorities to talk to them, was it your impression at the time

9 that these two sides were in conflict at that time?

10 A. I was generally aware as head of the mission of a concern being

11 expressed by the presidency that the agreement that had been reached in

12 which the JNA were to withdraw from the territory of Croatia would result

13 in a considerable buildup of JNA forces on the territory of Bosnia. And

14 the presidency at the time were concerned that a certain percentage of the

15 JNA Army that was coming into Bosnia would turn itself into a Bosnian Serb

16 army. And these were some of the concerns that were being expressed to me

17 by the Bosnian leadership at that time.

18 Q. In October, November, and December 1991, you were with the mission

19 in Bosnia. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Throughout that period of time in the territory of Bosnia

22 Herzegovina, were there any attacks that were launched against JNA members

23 or features throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. To the best of my knowledge, there were no major attacks during

25 that period of time conducted against the JNA in Bosnia.

Page 1743

1 Q. Did you know about the presence of Croatian paramilitary units in

2 Bosnia at the time and the attacks that they carried out against JNA units

3 and facilities?

4 A. I personally did not know of the presence of Croatian paramilitary

5 units in Bosnia. But I do know that there were allegations from the JNA

6 that these activities were taking place. So I had no evidence either to

7 lead me to believe it was happening or not. I did suspect that there was

8 a considerable Croatian paramilitary influence in Western Herzegovina.

9 Q. Did you try to verify it all, that -- the claims that you received

10 from members of the JNA?

11 A. Yes, I would. I would have asked the teams, the monitor teams,

12 who were in -- who were deployed in those areas to give me reports which

13 would either back-up the claims of the JNA or disagree with the claims of

14 the JNA. On some occasions, it was agreed that there was a considerable

15 activity down in the area of Western Herzegovina by paramilitaries against

16 the JNA. And I would have been satisfied with the reports of the monitor

17 teams that there were occasions when attacks were leveled against the JNA

18 forces, yes.

19 Q. Those attacks were launched by whom?

20 A. We assume that the attacks were being levelled against the JNA by

21 paramilitary forces. Exactly who they were or where they came from, I do

22 not know.

23 Q. Do you know where Neum is?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Which republic is that?

Page 1744

1 A. It's in Bosnia.

2 Q. Was it in Neum that you came across something interesting that was

3 related to the subject of my questions?

4 A. Yes. I was conscious that when I visited Neum that there was a

5 considerable Croatian influence in the location. I was aware that the

6 Croatian flag was being flown considerably. I was also informed that the

7 Croatian currency was being used considerably. And I was sufficiently

8 concerned about this to make it the subject of a report which I submitted

9 both to my own headquarters in Zagreb and to the presidency of Bosnia.

10 Q. Did you observe any paramilitary units from the Republic of

11 Croatia or their presence in Neum?

12 A. No, I did not observe any paramilitary units from the Republic of

13 Croatia.

14 Q. On the 6th of December, when you talked to General Strugar, did

15 you know what his position was specifically?

16 A. I knew General Strugar to be the senior JNA military commander in

17 the area that I visited, which included Trebinje and Bileca. I did not

18 know the extent of his area of operations. And I did not know whether

19 that area of operations included any of the territory of Croatia. As I

20 previously mentioned, it was not in the nature of our mission to ascertain

21 any detailed knowledge of military units.

22 Q. On the day you visited him, was General Strugar the commander of a

23 battalion, or perhaps of a brigade, or perhaps a different position?

24 A. Well, I knew that General Strugar was a lieutenant general, and I

25 know that lieutenant generals are commanders of major, large units such as

Page 1745

1 corps, divisions, or combinations of both which would be the same as an

2 operational group. I was satisfied that General Strugar was the

3 highest-ranking JNA general in that location. And therefore, I had sought

4 a meeting with him on that basis.

5 Q. What unit was that, the military unit that he led? What was the

6 name of that military unit?

7 A. I understood the military unit to be the 2nd Operational Group.

8 Q. Can you tell us more specifically in your understanding what does

9 that mean?

10 A. My understanding of that would have been he would have been a

11 three-star general, and that he would have maybe one or two generals under

12 his command who would have commanded a unit within that operational group.

13 Q. You'd call this unit an operational group. Is this something that

14 you arrived at yourself, or did someone actually tell you that that was

15 the name of the unit?

16 A. I was told by the monitors who were based in Mostar that this was

17 an operational group.

18 Q. Did they tell you which operational group specifically? The 3rd,

19 the 5th, the 27th perhaps?

20 A. I understood from recollection that it was the 2nd Operational

21 Group. That's as far as I can recall.

22 Q. Do you remember if you were told this before you met

23 General Strugar?

24 A. I don't recall. I was simply satisfied that General Strugar was

25 the senior JNA commander of that entire area. And that was sufficient for

Page 1746

1 me.

2 Q. A while ago, you said that when you talked to him, he was still

3 lieutenant general in terms of rank. Is that correct?

4 A. That was my assumption.

5 Q. Can you please specify "that was my assumption." What does that

6 mean?

7 A. It means that it was my belief he was a lieutenant general.

8 Q. On the 6th of December, was he actually lieutenant general or not?

9 A. It was my assumption that on the 6th of December he was a

10 lieutenant general.

11 Q. Do you distinguish between the various General-level ranks in the

12 JNA at the time?

13 A. I would have been able to distinguish between the various

14 General-level ranks because on most occasions they would have been

15 introduced to me as a one-star general, a two-star general, or a

16 three-star general. As I said, it was my understanding that

17 General Strugar was a three-star general. And in my army, a three-star

18 general is called a lieutenant general, and I understand that to be the

19 case in many armies.

20 Q. Does that mean that you did not see any stars attached to

21 General Strugar's uniform? Someone came and told you that he was a

22 three-star general. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, then, Mr. Rodic?

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

Page 1747

1 JUDGE PARKER: We will have a 20-minute break.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Can I please have the usher's assistance. I would like to show

7 the witness Exhibit P47. This is the photograph.

8 Q. Mr. Doyle, can you please tell us who is in this photograph and

9 point the individuals out to us, from left to right, please.

10 A. The person on the left-hand side of the photograph is the senior

11 operations officer of the ECMM mission for Bosnia, Mr. Dermot Coogan. The

12 person on the right-hand side of the photograph is myself,

13 Colonel Colm Doyle, at the time head of the ECMM mission for the Republic

14 of Bosnia. And in the centre is the officer commanding the 2nd

15 Operational Group, General Strugar.

16 Q. What sort of uniform was General Strugar wearing? Can you

17 remember that?

18 A. He was wearing the uniform of the federal army.

19 Q. Can you please try to describe it more closely, what did it look

20 like?

21 A. It was a green, DPM uniform, with appropriate markings of the

22 Yugoslav National Army.

23 Q. What sort of markings? Where were those markings exactly?

24 A. My understanding is the markings would either have been on the

25 sleeve or on the front of the uniform. I can't remember exactly. And the

Page 1748

1 rank marking would normally be held on the cap which, of course, he wasn't

2 wearing on that occasion.

3 Q. Would the rank be displayed anywhere else save for the cap? Did

4 you see the marking of a rank anywhere with the exception of the cap?

5 A. Well, I didn't see the cap because he wasn't wearing one. So that

6 doesn't apply. As far as I know, the rank -- to the best of my

7 recollection, the rank would have been on the front of the tunic but I

8 can't be certain of that.

9 Q. You said that the uniform was DPM and that it was a JNA uniform.

10 Was there anything else about the uniform that struck you as exceptional

11 or characteristic?

12 A. No, I don't recall.

13 Q. This photo that you handed over to the Prosecution, is it

14 originally a colour photograph?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. And the only thing you remember is that the uniform was green?

17 A. It was DPM, which is disruptive-pattern green.

18 Q. Why didn't you say so, then?

19 A. I did mention that it was DPM, which stands for disruptive

20 pattern.

21 Q. Can you please tell me, this handwriting under the photograph, you

22 said that you wrote that, didn't you?

23 A. That's correct.

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] If we can just please have the

25 photograph back on the ELMO, please.

Page 1749

1 Q. This spot where General Strugar's name is mentioned, can you

2 please read out how exactly the line continues. What are these remaining

3 words and what do they mean?

4 A. Are you referring to the second line of the notation?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. The first word is G-E-N for general; the second word

7 S-T-R-U-G-A-R. After that there is O-C. Next there's the figure 2.

8 That's followed by a capital O and a small p, and that's followed by a

9 capital G, followed by a P and a full stop.

10 Q. What you just read out to us, can you please expand and tell us

11 exactly what it means.

12 A. First word GEN stands for general. Second word is the General's

13 name. The O-C stands for officer commanding. The number 2 stands for the

14 number of the unit, which is the second. The Op stands for operational,

15 and the GP stands for group. In other words, General Strugar, officer

16 commanding the 2nd Operational Group.

17 Q. So, you wrote this down during the talk that you had in August

18 2003 last year, the one you've referred to when you talked to members of

19 the OTP. Is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. So you did have this photograph as you were being interviewed by

22 the OTP, didn't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you please now turn the other page of the document. And read

25 out the first line of the text that follows.

Page 1750

1 A. First line reads: With, w-i-t-h, the OC, that O-C, followed by

2 the figure 2, followed by the word "corps," c-o-r-p-s, and followed by the

3 word group, g-r-o-u-p.

4 Q. This O/C, does that also stand for commander?

5 A. Officer commanding, yes.

6 Q. And what does the 2nd Corps mean?

7 A. I wrote on the back of that photograph believing at that time that

8 General Strugar was officer commanding the 2nd Corps Group. It was

9 corrected later by the monitor mission team and they told me it should

10 have been the 2nd Operational Group. I wrote from the back of that

11 photograph when it had been developed.

12 Q. So what we've just been reading is what you wrote on the back of

13 the photograph in -- from 1991. Is that correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. If this relates to General Strugar, then you wrote down that he

16 was the commander of the 2nd Corps in the group.

17 A. That's the formation I told -- I was told he commanded at that

18 time. I later found out it was incorrect.

19 Q. I assume that you are well able to distinguish between corps and

20 operational group, aren't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So what we see on page 1, what you wrote down on page 1, which was

23 the first thing that we read, where you say that General Strugar is the

24 commander of the operational group, this is something you added after you

25 were told by the OTP what his position was. Isn't that right?

Page 1751

1 A. No, this is something that I knew before the OTP told me. I was

2 aware that it was an operational group that he commanded. At the time I

3 visited him, I wasn't too sure. All I knew was that he was the senior JNA

4 military commander in the area. Whether that was a corps or a group or an

5 operational group, I wasn't too sure. So where the title of the unit that

6 he commanded was a corps or an operational group, for me it didn't make a

7 huge amount of difference because it didn't make any change to the fact

8 that General Strugar was the commander or was the senior JNA commander of

9 whatever military formation was in that area. I originally thought and

10 I'd been told it was a corps group. It was then corrected afterwards that

11 it was an operational group. And therefore, when I was asked to notate on

12 the photograph was copied here, I had written down the corrected formation

13 that I knew he had commanded, which at that stage I knew to have been the

14 2nd Operational Group.

15 Q. Can you tell me when exactly was it that you found out that he

16 was, in fact, the commander of the 2nd Operational Group?

17 A. I don't know exactly, but I would have been aware that the officer

18 commanding the 2nd Operational Group by the time the formal visit was made

19 in February of 1992 by Ambassador Salgueiro, who was head of the monitor

20 mission. But I cannot be too sure.

21 Q. Let us try to be a little more specific. A year after the

22 meeting, you were, for example, certain that he was the commander of the

23 operational group.

24 A. Yes. I was certain that he was the commander. I was certain that

25 he was the senior JNA commander of that operational area. Regardless of

Page 1752

1 whether it was a corps group or an operational group, I was satisfied that

2 he was the senior JNA commander in the area.

3 Q. Mr. Doyle, you are a soldier, a professional soldier. There is no

4 such thing as corps group, as you should know, whereas operational groups

5 are very common. I do believe you are well aware of that, aren't you?

6 A. No, I'm not aware of that. I only know the formations in relation

7 to my own army. And at the time I went to Bosnia, I wasn't too sure what

8 the military formations were at the highest level because the military

9 formations in Yugoslavia were exceedingly far greater than those that

10 existed in the Irish Army, which is quite small.

11 Q. Did you know what the components were of the operational group at

12 the time?

13 A. My understanding was that if you had an operational group, that

14 that operational group would consist of more than one corps. There could

15 have been two corps. That would have been my understanding.

16 Q. Did you know which corps belonged to this specific operational

17 group?

18 A. I can't recall them offhand, but they were written down in our --

19 in the ECMM files which we had. So I assumed that there would have been

20 at least two corps that would made up an operational group.

21 Q. Do you know where those corps were stationed?

22 A. My understanding is that the corps were stationed in the

23 Trebinje/Bileca area. I don't know how far it extended because as I

24 mentioned before, it was not the nature of the monitor mission to look for

25 detailed military information on any formations or units.

Page 1753

1 Q. As far as the operational group is concerned, when you learned

2 that General Strugar was the commander of the operational group, did you

3 say so when you gave your first statement to the investigators of the

4 Tribunal?

5 A. I don't recall. All I know is that I would have -- as part of my

6 witness statement, I would have mentioned that General Strugar was the

7 senior -- most senior JNA military commander in the area. I don't know

8 whether -- I made my statement, whether it said it was corps group or

9 whether it was operational group. To me, that was just a technical point.

10 The main point that I would have made in my witness statement was that on

11 the 6th of December, I met with the most senior JNA military commander of

12 the area. Whether that was a corps or an operational group to me was

13 immaterial. He was the senior military commander.

14 Q. Let me ask you again: When you talked to the investigators of the

15 OTP for the first time, were you actually aware of the fact that

16 General Strugar was the commander of the operational group?

17 A. I'm not quite sure that in 1996 I would have put down in my

18 witness statement that he was the commander of the corps group or the

19 operational group. I can only repeat that I was satisfied that when I

20 made my statement it was in the knowledge that General Strugar was the

21 senior JNA federal military commander in the area in question. Of that, I

22 had no doubt.

23 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honours. It's not in the nature of

24 an objection, but if I can if we will be finishing with cross today as the

25 Prosecution's case was put in 46 minutes, and I think we're into about an

Page 1754

1 hour and a half if I'm not wrong on cross. If I can just get some

2 guidance as to whether I would be able to get into redirect today.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't believe that I

5 will be able to conclude my cross-examination today given what this

6 witness stated during the examination-in-chief. He is a material witness

7 to our case, and I will have plenty of questions to ask him in connection

8 to his credibility and the credibility of his testimony before this Court.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Your answer surprises me very much, Mr. Rodic. I

10 thought that you had covered the quite limited area of the evidence quite

11 well already. But you must carry on for the moment. I hope you will be

12 able to finish by the end of today.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Doyle, can you tell me about the remaining part of your note,

15 annotation. What is it?

16 A. Do you wish me to read the notation?

17 Q. There's no need for that. I do have a translation here, and we

18 all have the English original. Can you just tell us what it mean, what it

19 stands for, the remainder of it.

20 A. What it means is that General Strugar admitted to me through his

21 interpreter that he had launched an attack on Dubrovnik, an artillery

22 attack on Dubrovnik.

23 Q. The note is unfinished. What else is there?

24 A. The last two words read: "Killing 16."

25 Q. Where did you get this bit of information?

Page 1755

1 A. I do not know.

2 Q. Did General Strugar tell you himself?

3 A. I do not believe that he did, no.

4 Q. Are these casualties?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Is it true that this was a later addition?

7 A. The notation on the back of the photograph would not have been

8 done any earlier than when the photograph was developed. When that was, I

9 simply don't know, but I am satisfied it would have been within a

10 relatively short period of the meeting with General Strugar.

11 Q. Can you give us an approximate time frame as to when the

12 photographs were developed?

13 A. I would say within two weeks.

14 Q. So unless General Strugar himself told you, gave you this piece of

15 information related to the 16 people who had been killed, how else did you

16 come by that piece of information?

17 A. I do not recall. I might have read it in a report. I simply

18 cannot remember.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. RODIC: Can I have the usher's assistance, please, to show the

21 witness Exhibit P46, which is an extract from the witness's diary.

22 Q. For the record, can you please read back to us the second passage

23 of your note that refers to the 6th of December.

24 A. The numbers there are 1200. That indicates time. Met with

25 General Strugar (three star) followed by the words "bad in Dubrovnik."

Page 1756

1 Underneath that is the notation "back to Mostar." And finally underneath

2 that is O-N, which stands for overnight, which meant I stayed overnight in

3 Mostar.

4 Q. Your strongest impression from your meeting with General Strugar,

5 in addition to general information concerning the time of the meeting and

6 his rank, is what you added "bad in Dubrovnik." What precisely is that

7 supposed to mean?

8 A. What it meant in the diary was that Dubrovnik suffered on that

9 occasion, and that's why I wrote the words "bad in Dubrovnik."

10 Q. You provided exceptionally detailed information during your

11 testimony today in answer to a question by the OTP. Would it not have

12 been natural for you to write down what struck you as particularly bad in

13 Dubrovnik or as early as the 6th of December, which is when you spoke to

14 General Strugar?

15 A. No, it would not, because it was not in my practice to put

16 detailed notes in my diary. The practice for my diary was simply to note

17 who I met and where I met. So it is not unusual that I had no notation

18 other than that on that particular Friday.

19 Q. How come, then, that as early as 12.00 you knew for sure that it

20 was bad in Dubrovnik?

21 A. Because I didn't write in the diary at 12.00 on that day. I wrote

22 in the diary that evening. Or in fact, I probably wrote in that diary

23 when I returned to Sarajevo. So the notation in the diary are after the

24 events took place, rather than a reminder of the events that were to take

25 place.

Page 1757

1 Q. Your answer strikes me as logical. It seems very convincing to me

2 that probably you added that upon your return to Sarajevo. Once in

3 Sarajevo, did you follow coverage of the situation on TV?

4 A. I do not recall.

5 Q. Do you perhaps recall whether you watched any TV coverage on the

6 situation in Dubrovnik related to the 6th of December 1991 specifically?

7 A. Yes, that may well have been the case. I simply don't recall now.

8 Q. Is it perhaps possible that after watching that coverage, you

9 added the sentence about the situation in Dubrovnik being bad? Because

10 after all, you say yourself that this was a later addition after your

11 return to Sarajevo.

12 A. I simply don't know.

13 Q. Was it -- was there anything else that you did on that day that

14 was important?

15 A. After finishing my meeting with General Strugar, I had a meeting

16 with the mayor of Trebinje.

17 Q. Was your most important objective upon your arrival in Trebinje to

18 meet with General Strugar or with the mayor?

19 A. The objective of my visit to Trebinje was specifically to meet

20 with General Strugar.

21 Q. Was it an established part of your work, the work of your mission

22 in Bosnia to meet with mayors and presidents of municipalities?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. Why, then, is there no note in your diary of that? No note of

25 your meeting with the mayor of Trebinje?

Page 1758

1 A. Because there was no pre-planned itinerary to visit the mayor of

2 Trebinje. It came as an afterthought that while I was there, maybe I

3 should meet the mayor. I do not recall who suggested it. It may well

4 have been General Strugar. I simply do not know. But I did meet the

5 mayor of Trebinje for a very short period of time.

6 Q. You add these notes later, you say. So why did you not enter

7 this, too, in your diary?

8 A. Because to me, the meeting with the mayor of Trebinje was only

9 secondary to the meeting with General Strugar. The meeting with General

10 Strugar was officially set up in advance. The meeting with the mayor of

11 Trebinje was not. The diary that I made out covered the main events. It

12 did not necessarily cover every single meeting I had with everybody for

13 six months.

14 Q. Would it be correct if I say that you organised your meeting with

15 General Strugar primarily with the objective of meeting him in the first

16 place?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would it be correct if I said that you did not have any specific

19 task in respect of General Strugar?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. In fact, it is correct that was the first you ever met that man.

22 Right?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. During the examination today, you often used the word

25 "impression," what your impressions were. Is that right?

Page 1759

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What about information, then? What was conveyed to you, was it

3 actually scant so then you had to infer things on the basis of your own

4 perception and observations during these meetings?

5 A. I'm not sure I can understand that question. Would you repeat it

6 for me, please.

7 Q. Did you infer things on the basis of your impressions because

8 information was scant? There was not enough information presented at that

9 meeting or meetings?

10 A. I think it is normal at a meeting when you meet people that you

11 obviously have an impression of that person or those persons. I think

12 that's natural. And this was no different from that.

13 Q. It is correct that you did not have any notes kept at the meeting

14 or after the meeting with General Strugar. Right?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. Is it correct that what you said here that you received by way of

17 information from General Strugar was the result of what the lieutenant

18 colonel who was interpreting told you?

19 A. All of the information that was given to me at that meeting came

20 through the interpreter, who I would presume was correctly translating

21 what the general was saying.

22 Q. What was his English like? Can you remember that? Can you

23 remember what kind of English he spoke?

24 A. The lieutenant colonel who interpreted spoke English to a very

25 high standard and had been used consistently by the leadership of JNA

Page 1760

1 units in that capacity as an interpreter/translator. So his standard was

2 very good.

3 Q. What is the name of this lieutenant colonel?

4 A. I do not have the name of the lieutenant colonel on record. I

5 certainly have him on videotape and on some of the meetings that we had

6 which were recorded by the mission, his name. But I don't have his name

7 to hand at this stage.

8 Q. Did you have an interpreter at the meeting? Did you have an

9 interpreter who had come along with you?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Who was your interpreter?

12 A. His name was Mr. Darko Ivic.

13 Q. Did he spend a lot of time working with you?

14 A. Yes, he did.

15 Q. Was he only an interpreter?

16 A. He was more than an interpreter in that he facilitated the setting

17 up of meetings on behalf of the presidency of Bosnia. So he acted as

18 liaison to the mission from the presidency. He acted as my interpreter.

19 And he acted on my behalf when I requested the setting up of meetings with

20 various groups and personalities in the mission area. He was one of two

21 interpreters supplied by the presidency of Bosnia to assist the mission.

22 Q. Do you know that Darko Ivic is a member of the Ministry of the

23 Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. No, I'm not aware. I know that he was supplied as official

25 liaison to the monitor mission. My understanding, he was a police lawyer,

Page 1761

1 but we never discussed matters of that nature. He was there purely to act

2 on requests that I made and to act as my interpreter when that was

3 required.

4 Q. Did you have this kind of a liaison officer, to put it that way,

5 from some other side who was also a member of your team?

6 A. Would you explain when you say "some other side." I don't

7 understand what you have in mind there.

8 Q. If Darko Ivic was a liaison officer on behalf of the presidency of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, then he represents that side, vis-a-vis your mission,

10 and he organises meetings for you, of course, availing himself of the

11 position of the presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that side that he

12 represented. I'm just asking you whether from some other side, from the

13 JNA or anywhere else, you had this kind of a liaison officer who was with

14 you all the time attending meetings and so on?

15 A. No, when I was head of the mission, the interpreters we used were

16 both interpreters made available to us from the presidency. I should

17 point out at this meeting with General Strugar, the only person who

18 interpreted was the JNA commander. At no stage of the meeting with

19 General Strugar was there any translation or interpretation done by

20 Mr. Ivic. It was all done by the JNA, and that was a courtesy I extended

21 to the JNA because General Strugar's office was facilitating me, and I

22 felt it courteous to allow the exchange of comments that were made by

23 General Strugar to me to be interpreted by the JNA interpreter and not

24 Mr. Ivic. So Mr. Ivic did not have any part in that meeting. He didn't

25 speak.

Page 1762

1 Q. Was Darko Ivic present in the room where you held the meeting?

2 A. Yes, he was.

3 Q. Did you go to Sokolac once with Darko Ivic?

4 A. I believe I did. I can't remember exactly. I went to so many

5 places in Bosnia with him that I can't recall all of them. But we

6 properly would have passed through that location on one of the visits I

7 would have made to or from Mostar.

8 Q. Do you know where Sokolac is?

9 A. My understanding is it is in the general vicinity, not too far

10 from Mostar. Somewhere between Mostar, south towards Trebinje. But its

11 exact location, I'm not too clear on.

12 Q. Can you tell me why after the meeting that was held with

13 General Strugar took place you did not inform the mission about it? Why

14 did you not file a report about the meeting?

15 A. The reason I didn't file a report was for two reasons: One,

16 because I was newly into the appointment, and this was more or less a

17 courtesy visit I was making to the teams and to the JNA commanders. That

18 was the first reason. The second reason was that there was a mission

19 already in place in Croatia. It was deployed there by the headquarters in

20 Zagreb, and that location would have included places like Split and

21 Dubrovnik. It was my assumption that if any action had been seen to have

22 taken place in the area of Dubrovnik, it would have been reported on by

23 the mission inside Croatia. My terms of reference were strictly confined

24 to the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And they are the two reasons why

25 I didn't make a specific report.

Page 1763

1 Also, I should say that that trip that I made was over a period of

2 three days, and I met -- I had maybe five or six meetings, including the

3 meeting with General Strugar. So the meeting with General Strugar was

4 just one of a number of meetings I had during that trip. So I did not

5 make any detailed report of those meetings.

6 Q. Did your mission have its headquarters in Zagreb?

7 A. The headquarters of the entire monitor mission which covered all

8 of the republics of former Yugoslavia was located in Zagreb, Croatia.

9 Q. Isn't that unusual when you say that you did not write a report

10 because it was your first time, because you were a new person there in

11 view of your experience in various theatres of war until then that you've

12 already referred to?

13 A. Well, I've given the reasons why I didn't write the report. If I

14 was to rewrite the book again, I possibly felt that I should have. But at

15 the time, I didn't make the report. It's as simple as that.

16 Q. The principle of work was to file reports. Isn't that right? You

17 were in Bosnia, but your mission was also operating in Croatia. So if you

18 learned of important information in Bosnia that was relevant to Croatia,

19 wasn't that all supposed to go to headquarters where all reporting would

20 be channelled to? Wouldn't that be logical?

21 A. Yes, it probably would be logical. But as I said, I was newly

22 into the appointment. It was my first visit outside of Sarajevo. And I

23 choose not to make a report for no other reason than it was my first

24 visit. It was a number of visits -- or meetings that I had in the area.

25 And as I said before, any activity that would have occurred down in the

Page 1764

1 area of Dubrovnik, I would have expected to have reported by the mission

2 that was in Croatia. So in hindsight, it would have been better had I

3 submitted a report; but in reality, I didn't do that.

4 Q. In view of your impression from that meeting and when answering

5 the Prosecutor's questions, you said that you experienced something that

6 you had never experienced before that in your military career. I'm asking

7 you once again, and also bearing in mind what you wrote on the back of the

8 photograph concerning the number of casualties and this confirmation of

9 shelling, doesn't this bear enough weight as it was? Would you not want

10 to report about that?

11 A. The fact is I didn't report it, and I cannot change that now. If

12 I was to do it again, it would have been better had I made that report.

13 But I can't change what didn't happen or what did happen. It's as simple

14 as that.

15 Q. Did you tell the Prosecution that General Strugar was commander of

16 the 4th military district?

17 A. I'm not too sure. I can't remember what I told them except that I

18 did tell them that he was the senior JNA military commander in that entire

19 area.

20 Q. Is it correct that during your first interview with the

21 Prosecution investigators, you did not mention the operative group and

22 General Strugar at all, or rather that you did not say that he was

23 commander of the operations group. You said that he was commander of the

24 military district, the 4th Military District. Isn't that correct?

25 A. I don't have my witness statement in front of me, so I can't

Page 1765

1 recall exactly. It was a considerable statement. But if it's written in

2 the statement, as you say it's in the statement, then that's what I said.

3 I have no argument with it.

4 Q. Aren't you being contradictory then in relation to the answers

5 that you gave here today in terms of your knowledge that General Strugar

6 was commander of the operations group? And you said that you certainly

7 became aware of that within a year after the meeting. And then there is

8 the time when you gave your statement to the investigators of the OTP.

9 A. That may well have been the case. I'm not too sure. It wasn't an

10 issue at the time when I went out the witness statement [sic]. I do know

11 that when I spoke with the Prosecutors in 2003, I was certainly aware at

12 that stage as to what the formation of this operational group was. I had

13 no particularly -- occasion at which I had to dwell on the events which

14 took in place in 1991, 1992. I've done many things since that time. And

15 I am satisfied now, having seen documentation, that General Strugar, in

16 fact, commanded the 2nd Operational Group. But I want to repeat that at

17 the time I made a statement in 1996, it was to convey to the investigators

18 that General Strugar was the senior JNA military commander of the major

19 formation that was in the area of Trebinje and Bileca. Whatever that

20 formation was called, in my view, is secondary to the fact that I could

21 identify him as the senior JNA military commander.

22 Q. I have the statement that you gave to the investigators. The

23 statement was given, at least according to what it says here, in 1995

24 rather than 1996, which is what you said here. Is that correct?

25 A. Well, if it was 1995 and it's signed, then I stand corrected.

Page 1766

1 Q. In paragraph 34 of your statement, you say, and I am going to read

2 it out to you: "On that same day, before I met with the mayor" --

3 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. The statement that we have

4 is not numbered by paragraph. If you could ask that we have a page number

5 it would be more helpful. Perhaps putting it to the witness we'll see if

6 that would be of assistance.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic, I take it this isn't your last question.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, regrettably, it's not.

9 Because I have to draw some comparisons.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. If that's the case, I think we've gone

11 past the time for today. You might collect the information that

12 Ms. Somers needs when we resume tomorrow.

13 I'm afraid I must ask you to return tomorrow, Colonel.

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: We resume at 9.00 in the morning.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of

19 February, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.