Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2930

1 Monday, 23 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning to everyone and to you, Mr. Jovic,

7 especially. May I remind you that you took an affirmation to tell the

8 truth, which still is binding.

9 Yes, Mr. Re.

10 MR. RE: Good morning, Your Honours; good morning Mr. Jovic.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Re: [Continued]

14 Q. On Friday evening when we concluded, you were telling the Trial

15 Chamber how the shop you were working in had to close for several days in

16 about November, October, November 1991.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When did the shop reopen and how were you able to reopen it?

19 A. Well, the shop reopened after the intense attacks had been over,

20 which had gone on for five or six days. Following those attacks, a convoy

21 arrived, a Libertas Convoy, led by the then president of Yugoslavia,

22 Stjepan Mesic. This convoy arrived in Dubrovnik --

23 Q. Can I just stop you there. What I'm actually asking you about,

24 Mr. Jovic, is physically how and why did you reopen the shop?

25 A. We reopened for the citizens, for people living in the Old Town,

Page 2931

1 because it was the only shop in the Old Town. We had to reopen, and we

2 had an obligation to the Dubrovnik authorities to reopen because we were

3 the only shop selling bread in the Old Town.

4 Q. What had changed that allowed you -- that enabled you to reopen

5 the shop?

6 A. Well, the heavy attacks that had gone on for five or six days

7 where there had been a lot of destruction and people had been killed,

8 those attacks had stopped and probably a cease-fire of some sort had been

9 signed, although there were still ongoing attacks on the outskirts of

10 town, but we kept on working. We'd go to work early in the morning.

11 There was no light, no electricity. We were using a generator in the Old

12 Town for the fridge. We'd bring bread in as well as all the other

13 supplies that we'd kept at the shop and in other parts of the town. We'd

14 bring it there and we'd sell it --

15 Q. All right. Can I --

16 A. -- in the Old Town.

17 Q. Thank you. What I want to move to now is the 6th of December.

18 You told the Trial Chamber on Friday that you were living in Gruz. Were

19 you living in Gruz and staying in Gruz on the night of the 5th of

20 December?

21 A. Yes. I always lived in Gruz, and I still do. On that particular

22 morning, the 6th of December, we rose early, about 5.00 in the morning,

23 because my sister and I worked. We went to work together, and we drove

24 down to Gruz where we had another shop, and next to it there was the caddy

25 driver. He slept there. He drove the supply van, and we went to work

Page 2932

1 together because the town's transport had ceased to operate. We rose

2 early in the morning, and we heard sounds of shooting, which was slightly

3 unusual.

4 Q. You went from Gruz to the other shop. Where was the other shop?

5 A. Well, I said the shop in Gruz next to which our driver slept -- or

6 lived, rather, and then we went to the Old Town, to our shop.

7 Q. You said you heard the sounds of shooting. Did you see anything?

8 A. Well, yes. The morning of the 6th of December was slightly

9 unusual. The shooting began early. That was unusual. It was still dark,

10 there was no light in the town. You could see them flying over us,

11 because just behind our flat there is Mount Srdj. These were probably

12 illumination bullets or whatever they're called. They flew from one side

13 to the other and that was slightly unusual. Those were no direct threat

14 to us at the time because no projectiles were landing around us.

15 We went to Gruz, we got bread from the bakery, and got into the

16 van, the caddy, and we drove to the Old Town. At half past five, quarter

17 to six, intense shooting had begun all over town. You could hear sounds

18 of both light and heavy arms firing. This grew in intensity around 7.00

19 in the morning. The first shells began falling on the Old Town of

20 Dubrovnik. By that time --

21 Q. Where were you when the first shells started falling on the Old

22 Town?

23 A. I was at the shop.

24 Q. What were you doing at the shop?

25 A. All the usual things. We'd usually open around 6.00 in the

Page 2933

1 morning, and customers who lived in the Old Town started coming because

2 many people were staying inside the Old Town at the time. They would come

3 to get bread, especially the elderly people. They used to come a bit

4 earlier. They were afraid to come later. They'd just come early, get

5 their bread, and go back to the shelter.

6 That morning, the same as usual, people would come, and then

7 shells started falling on the Old Town. And several people were in the

8 shop by the time the shells started falling.

9 Q. Thank you. Who else was in the shop with you when the shells

10 started falling?

11 A. I was there, my sister was there, the late Tonci Skocko and Mato

12 Skocko, and four or five other people, our customers.

13 Q. I think you described Mato Skocko as the owner of the shop. How

14 old was he then?

15 A. Mato Skocko was the manager. He ran the shop. He must have been

16 around 45 at the time.

17 Q. Your sister, how old was your sister?

18 A. My sister was 23 at the time.

19 Q. Was your sister a civilian?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was Mato Skocko a civilian?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And Tonci Skocko, how old was he?

24 A. I think 18 or 19. Nineteen years of age at the time, thereabouts.

25 Q. Was he a civilian?

Page 2934

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. These elderly men and women -- sorry, elderly people who were

3 coming to the shop to buy bread, what age are you talking about?

4 A. Well, those people, as a rule, were the ones who came the

5 earliest. They were, as a rule, between 50 and 70 years of age. And then

6 later on younger people would come that were in the Old Town, children

7 sometimes too, but those who came first, earliest in the morning, were

8 usually elderly people.

9 Q. Were the elderly people a mixture of men and women?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did they appear to you to be civilians?

12 A. Not only did they appear to me to be civilians, they were

13 civilians, those elderly people. The younger people too, probably,

14 because had they been soldiers, they would probably have been elsewhere in

15 positions on that day. They were most probably civilians, therefore.

16 Q. What about the children? What ages were the children who came to

17 the shop?

18 A. The children, between 7 and 15, I'd say. Their parents would send

19 them, too, to go out and get bread, those who had not left town by then.

20 Q. Were children still coming to the shop in December 1991?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How would you describe the shelling when it -- the intensity of

23 the shelling around 7.00 a.m. when you said there were elderly people

24 coming to the shop?

25 A. The first shells that resounded nearby, we weren't even aware that

Page 2935

1 those had fallen on the Old Town because we were inside the shop working,

2 but the sounds of firing got closer and closer. So people who kept coming

3 in were stunned and told us that shells had begun to fall all over the

4 Stradun, the fountain, and St. Blaise Church. And then the shooting kept

5 inching closer and closer to us, and it kept growing in intensity. So at

6 one point, when the attack was the heaviest, there would be five or six

7 shells landing at the same time all over the Old Town, so that the whole

8 town had been under attack, the Old Town. The phone lines had been cut.

9 The rest of my family were back in Gruz, and we didn't know what was going

10 on over there, whether they were still alive and how heavy the attacks

11 were over there. It was a very difficult time for us.

12 Q. I want you to describe for the Trial Chamber the atmosphere in

13 that shop when the shells were falling on the Old Town that morning.

14 A. Well, as I said, there were a few of us there, and buyers, too,

15 who remained in the shop. One of them was a well-known painter, Josko

16 Skerlj, who happened to be in our shop at the time, and some other people.

17 We were all stunned and appalled listening to the sounds that were

18 reaching us, waiting to see what would happen, because our fate was far

19 from certain at that time. We couldn't know for sure that our shop would

20 not be hit, whether we would survive or not.

21 The shelter was a little further off, but we couldn't leave our

22 shop to go to the shelter. It wasn't possible. So at about 8.00, when

23 the first shell landed nearby --

24 Q. I'll come to that in a moment. When you're saying -- I withdraw

25 that.

Page 2936

1 You just referred to Josko Skerlj, a well-known painter. Was he a

2 civilian?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And when you said "we" a moment ago, were you referring to

5 yourself, Tonci Skocko, Mato Skocko, and the other customers who were in

6 the shop?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where in the shop were you -- did you go to during the first phase

9 of the shelling?

10 A. When the whole thing began, the customers who remained inside the

11 shop - and then people stopped coming into the shop at one point because

12 it wasn't possible for anyone to reach us - we shut the door. The shop

13 has about 100 or 120 square metres. It only has a door and a window

14 facing the street. The other side of the shop, there is a house on the

15 other side, and there was a small section of the shop there is a terrace

16 and there's a garden outside, and there was some sort of a wine cellar

17 over there where we took shelter at the time. We felt that that would be

18 the safest place for us to be at the time, in that section of the shop.

19 Q. What happened -- sorry, where did you go or what were you going to

20 tell us about at about 8.00 a.m.?

21 A. At about 8.00, that was when the first shell landed, but shells

22 were raining all around us. And this one landed just outside our door on

23 the street. The explosion was powerful. There was a bang and the door

24 opened wide. Shrapnel were flying around the shop. The till was

25 shattered and so was the door. There was a lot of dust in the air and for

Page 2937

1 a while we didn't know where we were.

2 When the whole thing gradually settled down, when the dust

3 settled, sounds of firing still kept resounding all around us and we

4 regained our composure. One of our clients went outside, just outside the

5 door onto the street, and he said that the house just next to the school

6 building where the shelter was was on fire. The late Tonci Skocko and

7 myself then went --

8 Q. Can I just -- I'll come to that in a moment. I just want to go

9 back to the shelling. You said a shell landed outside and you said there

10 was a powerful explosion. Did you see any smoke or any fire in the

11 explosion? Can you describe to the Trial Chamber what the explosion

12 entailed.

13 A. Well, it is very difficult to describe to someone who did not

14 experience it directly. At one point I only saw -- well, we didn't see

15 the fire. We only saw the fire once the door was opened. There was a lot

16 of dust. Stones were flying around as well as shrapnel. It's just

17 slightly difficult to describe what it looked like at the moment. You

18 don't know where you are at that moment. You have no idea what's going

19 on. It's a very small room, and it became very musty due to the dust and

20 everything in the air and we were happy to still be alive.

21 Q. How would you describe the sound, the intensity of the sound of

22 that explosion?

23 A. It's very difficult to describe the sound and whole thing

24 happening. I don't think anyone who did not directly experience it can

25 possibly describe it. It's a dreadful thing.

Page 2938

1 You hear the powerful explosion, a bang, and when the whole thing

2 happened, there was a lot of dust inside and smoke, and you have no idea

3 what's happening. So first we looked at each other just to check that

4 everyone was okay, and once we made sure, we sort of began to regain our

5 composure, and we waited for the dust to settle. There was no light

6 inside the shop because there was no electricity.

7 Q. I'll come to you going outside in a moment. I just want to

8 concentrate at the moment on that explosion outside the shop. You said

9 you saw fire once the door was opened. I want you to describe to the

10 Trial Chamber the fire you saw, the size of the fire or the intensity of

11 the fire.

12 A. It's a conflagration. I'm not sure how to say it. When a shell

13 falls -- I was there, and I looked on. It's a flash. It's difficult to

14 describe what it feels like when something like that is happening nearby.

15 You just can't believe it. You don't know what to do. It's a huge flash,

16 and then there's a powerful explosion, and then there's a lot of dust in

17 the air suddenly and smoke. So the whole thing was quite horrifying.

18 Q. Did you and the other people in the shop experience fear?

19 A. Yes. It wasn't only fear. We didn't know at the time whether we

20 were still alive. We believed ourselves to be sheltered at the time, but

21 this was no reliable shelter. Not everyone could fit inside the shop, and

22 we didn't know at the time whether we were all still there and still

23 alive.

24 Q. But what did you and Tonci do when there was a lull in the

25 shelling?

Page 2939

1 A. Well, it wasn't really a lull, but, rather, the smoke and the dust

2 settled inside the shop, but there was still shooting going on, firing,

3 all over the town, powerful explosions all the time. Someone went outside

4 and tried to cross the street to the house just opposite, to the house

5 near the elementary school building.

6 The late Tonci and I then went outside, although Mato had told us

7 to stay put and not go out, but we were just curious, so we had to go out

8 and --

9 Q. All right. You mentioned there being a shelter across the street.

10 How far in metres was this shelter from the shop?

11 A. From the shop, perhaps about 40 or 50 metres, just down the

12 street.

13 Q. What sort --

14 A. That was the elementary school building.

15 Q. Was there a shelter in the elementary school building?

16 A. Yes. This structure, this building, all the houses in the Old

17 Town had been made the same way. It's all wooden floors and the roof, no

18 concrete. So none of those houses were safe. But this elementary school

19 building had been rebuilt just before the war and two floors were added,

20 so there were a couple of concrete slabs. On the ground floor, probably,

21 the civilian authorities had said that there should be a civilian shelter.

22 Those civilians were elderly people who lived in the Old Town. Some of

23 them even spent their nights there. They wouldn't even go home. They

24 stayed there for months. Some people just came to spend the day there.

25 So in the morning, probably the shelter was filled to capacity with

Page 2940












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Page 2941

1 people.

2 This was the only civilian shelter, this and the Revelin fort

3 inside the town.

4 Q. Why didn't you and the other people in the shop go to this shelter

5 some 40 to 50 metres away when the shelling began?

6 A. We couldn't. We weren't sure it would be safe to run across the

7 street because of the shells. And our customers were there as well, and

8 we thought that it would end soon, that it would be over shortly. But

9 then when the attacks started in earnest, we were really afraid to go out

10 in the street and run, because one couldn't be sure that the shell

11 wouldn't land, so that we just remained in the shop.

12 Q. Let's go back to when you and Tonci went outside. How far did you

13 go and what happened?

14 A. We went out through the door, and there was a staircase leading

15 out into the street from that door. So we went that way. Perhaps we --

16 some of us lit a cigarette, and there across from the street where the

17 shelter was, a roof on the house was on fire, the house was already on

18 fire, and it was ablaze.

19 At that moment, we saw a civilian who had ran across the street --

20 who had run across the street and into the shelter as we were looking on.

21 And all this lasted a minute, a minute or two, perhaps, during the time

22 that we stayed in the street.

23 At a certain point, something happened that we -- that even -- at

24 this point of time I am unable to find the words to describe how this had

25 happened. That is to say at a certain point there was a huge flash

Page 2942

1 followed by an explosion. There was dust, there was smoke, there was

2 stones, there was rubble.

3 At that time, as we were standing in the doorway next to the

4 staircase, I and the late Tonci ran into the shop. He -- he first and

5 then I followed him. And from the door to perhaps this distance, we -- we

6 covered the ten metres, the length of the shop, to cross over to the other

7 side, to this small wine cellar, as I already mentioned, which was there

8 which we used as a shelter. And there was a counter there where we had

9 samples of our wine while we still had wine. By that time, there was

10 none.

11 The late Tonci was in front, and I followed him. When we came to

12 this counter -- behind the counter, rather, Mato Skocko said to me,

13 "Nikola, you are wounded." I wasn't even aware. I didn't feel that I had

14 been wounded with all the fear --

15 Q. Can I stop you there. I'll ask you about your wounding in a

16 little while, but I just want you to concentrate on Tonci at the moment.

17 A. Yes. Well, at that moment when Mato Skocko said this to me, I

18 fell. I saw blood at that moment -- rather, Tonci Skocko fell on the

19 floor at that moment, and all of us looked on, unaware what had happened.

20 We thought that this was because of the shock that he had suffered, the

21 impact of the shell. We were not really clear about what was really going

22 on. So we called out to him, tried to resuscitate him. We gave him a few

23 slaps in the face but all in vain.

24 One of the customers who happened to be there who was somewhat

25 knowledgeable in these matters tried to give him artificial respiration,

Page 2943

1 but all this to no avail, because -- and of course at that moment none of

2 us actually knew that he was dead.

3 So this went on for about half an hour, and we also poured some

4 water on him and squeezed some lemon juice in order to help him, but he

5 was already dead, and we were not aware of that.

6 Q. How long -- how long did this go on for? How long -- how long did

7 you attempt to revive Tonci for?

8 A. Well, for certainly half an hour, perhaps more. This is the time

9 that we spent trying to resuscitate him, because we thought that he was in

10 shock and that these were the consequences of that shock that he had

11 experienced.

12 Q. How about this shelling? Was this shelling still going on in this

13 half an hour or so?

14 A. Yes, it was. Yes, it was. The shelling was still going on. And

15 perhaps, in fact, the heaviest attacks were taking place at that time,

16 about 8.00 or 9.00, when the whole city was ablaze and in smoke, and

17 shells were landing. It was really horrific.

18 Q. What did Mato do after about half an hour?

19 A. When he saw that all our efforts were to no avail, he said that he

20 was going to get his car which was outside the Old Town in the Ploce area.

21 We all tried to dissuade him, to tell him that he shouldn't go because of

22 the situation, because his father, but he wouldn't listen to us. He went

23 out, and we then turned again to Tonci, tried to resuscitate him, give him

24 artificial respiration and calling out his name. There were a few women

25 there who were crying out loudly because they were not aware of what was

Page 2944

1 really happening.

2 At the moment when Mato returned, he drove his car through the

3 Skalina, the streets, actually the stairs, the steps, and his tires were

4 totally deflated so that he actually drove on the tire rims.

5 We were all there when Mato came flying into the shop. We took

6 Tonci's body and took it out and into the car. As we were taking his body

7 into the car, I went out, I went to the back side to open the back door to

8 put him on the back seat. The late Tonci was in this jersey, in this

9 T-shirt, and as we were trying to put him on the back seat, the T-shirt

10 was caught in the door, and I saw a small hole in the T-shirt, perhaps the

11 size of a -- on the chest. It was on the -- the size of a grain of corn.

12 I didn't say anything to Mato at that point. And then Mato drove

13 the car away through the Stradun which I think can be seen -- or his car

14 can be seen on the photographs which were taken on that date there where

15 the shelling took place. So he took him to hospital.

16 Then I told the rest of the people what I had noticed. This was

17 the way it was. And later, when Mato returned some two hours later, when

18 he returned from hospital, he said that Tonci was dead and that he had

19 died instantly when the -- when the shelling took place because a shrapnel

20 had hit -- a fragment had hit him directly in the heart at that moment and

21 perhaps his life could have been saved only in hospital.

22 Q. When his T-shirt was rolled up and you saw a small hole in his

23 chest, did you see any blood there?

24 A. There was no blood, interestingly enough, no blood at all.

25 Q. I want you to describe for the Trial Chamber Mato's reaction and

Page 2945

1 his demeanour when he was there with his son who was unconscious when he

2 went to get his car. How would you describe his reaction?

3 A. Well, you can imagine a person to -- who saw this happening to his

4 own son. You can imagine what kind of a reaction he had. From the very

5 beginning, since this whole thing started happening, not only I myself but

6 everybody else, including Mato, thought that this was the effect of shock,

7 of the shock, and that Tonci would recover. However, as time passed by,

8 he probably became increasingly aware of what was really happening and

9 that there was something wrong, so that panic set in. First of all, these

10 ladies started crying even before they knew that Tonci was dead. And the

11 demeanour of his father is something which is also hard to describe. It

12 is the demeanour of a father whose son is dying in his arms.

13 Q. I'll take you back now to your own injury. You said when you were

14 there and Tonci -- people were trying to revive Tonci, someone told you

15 that you had blood on you. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber about

16 that.

17 A. Well, when I noticed that there was blood on me, nothing actually

18 -- I felt no pain at all, but then I wasn't paying attention to -- much

19 attention to my own wound at that time because it was still fresh, as it

20 were. Only later, after we had taken Tonci away, and as every shop had a

21 first aid kit including bandages and alcohol, so we dressed my wound in

22 the -- which was in the chin and leg area, and bandaged it. These were

23 just surface wounds.

24 Q. I'll stop you there. Did you have those wounds before you went

25 out and there was a huge flash and the explosion?

Page 2946

1 A. No, no.

2 Q. Where were you injured?

3 A. In the chin and the right shin, right shank.

4 Q. What sort of injury did you receive on your chin?

5 A. It was a cut. It was a cut caused by the grazing of a shrapnel

6 fragment, and it was obvious on three spots in the chin area. And also in

7 my leg where it cut -- cut through the trouser leg and my own skin.

8 Q. Have you any scars as a result?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Can you just stand up and show the Trial Chamber firstly the scars

11 under your chin -- firstly, how many scars are there under your chin?

12 A. Three, I believe.

13 Q. And how many on your leg?

14 A. One.

15 Q. How, can you just stand up and show the Trial Chamber, if you can,

16 firstly the scars on your chin and, secondly, the scar on your leg.

17 A. Yes, I can.

18 MR. RE: Might he approach the Bench, Your Honours? It may not be

19 possible to see them from that distance.

20 JUDGE PARKER: I think we can see where he is.

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. Just stand where you are. Just put your chin up.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Okay. Now the leg. He's demonstrating a mark midway between knee

25 and ankle on shin.

Page 2947

1 A. [Indicates]

2 MR. RE: Did Your Honours see it?


4 MR. RE:

5 Q. You said you -- I think you said you bandaged it in the shop; is

6 that correct? Your injuries.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How long did you remain in the shop after bandaging your injuries?

9 A. Well, after we left the shop, it was about 11.30, about midday,

10 after all the attacks had stopped, after the shelling had abated.

11 Q. About how long after Tonci -- Mato had taken Tonci to the hospital

12 did you leave the shop? I appreciate it's a long time ago; approximately.

13 A. Well, when Mato left the hospital -- I mean the shop, he returned

14 in about 45 minutes. He returned because the hospital was in the area

15 between the Old City and Buninovo. It was perhaps 2 kilometres away from

16 the Old City. So Mato, after taking his son to the hospital and after he

17 had been examined by doctors who established death, he left the hospital

18 and returned to the shop.

19 Q. My question is about how long after he took Tonci to the hospital

20 and came back, did you leave the shop? What sort of period was there

21 between him leaving for the hospital and you leaving the shop?

22 A. Perhaps around three hours.

23 Q. Where did you go when you left the shop, and did you leave with

24 your sister?

25 A. Yes. We left the shop. Mato Skocko went with this other person,

Page 2948

1 Josko Skerlj, I believe, and perhaps some other people as well. They went

2 to Mato's house because he was unable to go alone, and his wife, the

3 mother of the late Tonci, didn't know at the time at all that Tonci had

4 been killed. I and my sister went to our own house through the Pile

5 gates, Buninovo, towards Gruz. We had meant to drop by and into the

6 regional infirmary which is in the Gruz area, but it was closed at the

7 time because of the shelling and because of the alarm. So we found no one

8 there and we proceeded on to our house.

9 The next day, I went to the infirmary for an examination and

10 bandaging.

11 Q. You went to the Pilica Gate [sic]. Did you walk through Pile?

12 A. Through the Od Puca Street, through Stradun, and the Pile Gate,

13 towards Buninovo.

14 Q. And did you walk home with your sister?

15 A. Yes, we walked home.

16 Q. Was the shelling still continuing when you were walking through

17 the Old Town, Pile, to Gruz?

18 A. No. By 11.30, the shelling had stopped and explosions could no

19 longer be heard.

20 Q. Where did you go the next day for your examination and bandaging?

21 A. So I went to this infirmary in Gruz, the regional clinic in Gruz,

22 in which there were nurses and a physician, and there they dressed my

23 wound and I returned home.

24 Q. Did you require any ongoing treatment for your two wounds, on your

25 chin and on your leg? Did you go back to the infirmary?

Page 2949

1 A. Well, yes. I returned for perhaps another couple of times, two

2 times; the second and the third day for a new bandage, and that was it.

3 Q. Did you ever receive a war disability pension or make a claim for

4 one as a result of receiving these injuries?

5 A. Neither did I apply for one nor did I get anything for it because

6 I didn't apply.

7 Q. You described the physical injuries. Now, what about

8 psychological injuries? How did you feel in the first few weeks after

9 experiencing the explosion, the injury, and the death of Tonci Skocko?

10 A. You can imagine. Not only that night but for days I was really

11 under a very difficult impression. First of all, one experienced

12 disbelief because one couldn't really fathom that this kind of thing had

13 happened to a person who had only started living, as it were, and that you

14 had lost him. His father was unable to go to work having experienced this

15 trauma and this intense pain. And one would wake up at night, one

16 couldn't sleep, one kept reliving the events of that day in one's mind.

17 Q. And how did you feel about having gone out with Tonci, that young

18 man, that day?

19 A. I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand your question.

20 Q. How did you feel afterwards about you and him having gone out,

21 outside, during the shelling that day? What did you feel about it?

22 A. For a long time I myself felt this sense of guilt as if I myself

23 had been to blame for the late Tonci's death because I was together with

24 him at that particular moment. We had gone out together, so I kept having

25 these self-recriminating feelings even though, of course, I had nothing to

Page 2950

1 do with it and it was obvious who was to blame, but I still felt this

2 guilt, thinking along the lines why did we have to go out? Why did this

3 thing have to happen to precisely him? So it was a very ugly feeling, a

4 difficult feeling.

5 Q. Did you ever receive any sort of psychological counselling or

6 assistance for these feelings you experienced afterwards?

7 A. No, I didn't. There was no need, really. And I imagine myself to

8 be a more or less stable person.

9 Q. But how did you manage to overcome these feelings?

10 A. Well, time heals everything. You get on with your life, and you

11 realise that it wasn't only you, that the same thing had happened to a lot

12 of people and that a lot of people had fared far worse with their

13 relatives getting killed. And then you have to think about Mato, what his

14 feelings were. You have to hold back. At least, whenever I met him, I

15 had to try to act normal.

16 Q. Did Mato close the shop after this happened?

17 A. That day and the next day -- for two days after. Two days later

18 there was the funeral when Tonci Skocko was buried, so the shop remained

19 closed for two or three days, and then we resumed work as usual. My

20 sister, I, and a woman, a lady named Silva who worked with us, and Mato

21 came back to work perhaps a fortnight later. We kept the shop up and

22 running for two weeks.

23 Q. I want you to describe what you saw as you walked through the Old

24 Town with your sister after the shelling on the 6th of December.

25 A. When the whole thing settled down and when shells stopped falling,

Page 2951












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Page 2952

1 the first thing we did when we went out onto the street, our street was a

2 disaster. It was a mess. Many things had been destroyed, houses on both

3 sides. The walls were pimpled from shrapnel. You could see destruction

4 to the stone walls and the windows had been shattered.

5 Just across the way there was another house, the facade of which

6 was made of stone, and you could see even more holes and damage.

7 On our way down to the elementary school building, we could see

8 people leaving the shelter. The whole house had caught fire just across

9 the way from the elementary school building. There was rubble all over

10 the place, curtains falling down.

11 And then just opposite the Orthodox church there is a huge palace,

12 three or four floors high, and about 50 metres long, and the whole

13 building was ablaze. It was a disaster to look at. There were people

14 standing outside. An elderly man was crying, sitting there on the floor.

15 He had perhaps devoted most of his life to the reconstruction and

16 preservation of that building, and the yet whole thing disappeared into

17 thin air in a matter of minutes.

18 There was rubble in the streets, unexploded shells. The palace on

19 Siroka Street was also on fire, a large building. There was another

20 building on the Stradun which was also on fire. The Dubrovnik summer

21 festival building, where many valuable things were being kept, and those

22 had burnt too.

23 The entire Old Town was covered in smoke. And the fire brigade

24 started arriving, and they couldn't even move about from all the debris,

25 from all the rubble and everything burning. The situation was disastrous

Page 2953

1 in the Old Town. People had started coming out into the street, staring

2 in disbelief at what had happened. This is a situation which I still find

3 very difficult to describe. It's beyond words, everything that happened

4 in the Old Town.

5 Q. In your -- in the street in which your shop was located, that's

6 Miha Pracata, you described damage to the stone facades. Which side of

7 the street had the stone facades?

8 A. Most of the houses. I think about 90 per cent of the houses had

9 stone facades. Those were all made of stone. But just across from my

10 shop there is a house with a concrete facade. All of the other houses in

11 the Old Town are made of stone. So that the house with the concrete

12 facade shows even better the destruction.

13 On a different street, the staircase had been shattered because

14 several shells fell there --

15 Q. I'll just stop you there.

16 A. -- and tumbled down the stairs.

17 Q. Just in relation to the stone facades in the street of your shop,

18 and the cement facade, how did the damage to the cement facade compare to

19 that on the stone facades?

20 A. Well, the concrete facade showed the extent of the destruction a

21 lot better because stone is hard. So, yes, you can see damage to the

22 stone around the doors and the windows, but the concrete shows this better

23 because the holes are larger.

24 Q. Can you describe the difference between the damage to the cement

25 facade and the stone facades? What was different about the damage to the

Page 2954

1 cement facade?

2 A. Well, actually, if you look at the cement facade, the damage looks

3 greater. The holes look bigger. But that facade is easier to make than

4 the stone facade, because when a stone building is damaged, you have to

5 replace whole slabs of stones so it appears to be less damage than the

6 cement facade but actually the damage is much heavier than that which

7 occurred to the cement facade, where the holes look bigger

8 Q. And in the street in which your shop was located, was there -- was

9 the damage to each side of the buildings on each side of the street more

10 or less equal or was there some difference between the damage on the

11 different sides of the street?

12 A. All the streets in the Old Town, even my street, the whole thing

13 is perhaps about a metre or two across. So those are narrow little

14 streets. So you can't say which one was damaged more than the other. The

15 house where our shop was, we only found out the following day there was a

16 direct point of impact in the roof. It was hit directly through the roof.

17 So we can't say that one side of the street was damaged more than the

18 other. It was the same intensity throughout. It was a very narrow

19 street, so the damage was more or less equal on both sides of the street.

20 The street is not very wide.

21 Q. You just said that your building was hit directly through the

22 roof. Can you describe the -- describe the damage to the roof, such as

23 the dimensions of the hole?

24 A. Well, the impact on the roof, the direct impact, that was at the

25 far end of the roof, and the hole was two, two and a half metres across, I

Page 2955

1 guess. There were shells that fell right down through the house, but the

2 one that exploded on the roof, there was only damage to the roof and the

3 attic -- the first floor, rather, from up above.

4 Q. What other damage was there to the shop building?

5 A. Well, the roof had been hit. The curtains had been burned due to

6 the two explosions in the street outside. The shutters and the windows on

7 the house and then the door and the windows on the ground floor had been

8 shattered. So everything had to be replaced. The damage had been

9 considerable. But in comparison to some other houses, it was quite

10 insignificant.

11 Q. The shop was on the ground floor, there was a house upstairs. How

12 many floors does this building have?

13 A. So there was a shop on the ground floor, there was another floor,

14 and an attic with a -- what is usually called Belvedere. It's the sort of

15 thing you very often find in the Old Town.

16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what a Belvedere is? Describe it

17 to us.

18 A. Well, it's the local name we use in Dubrovnik. You have something

19 just underneath the roof protruding, sticking out. There are windows and

20 Venetian blinds so that if there is someone living in the attic, in order

21 to make a flat up there and in order to have enough air, the roof was

22 slanted, and Belvedere means a view. So there was a view, and those were

23 made to bring enough sun to the attic flat.

24 Q. You described the door flying open when a shell landed and windows

25 breaking. Was there any damage to the door of the shop?

Page 2956

1 A. The door had been shattered totally and damaged by shrapnel, and

2 the other part of the door that was on the hinges, it came off the hinges

3 due to the explosion and was broken. So the whole door was demolished and

4 had to be replaced. It was -- it had been pierced by shrapnel, and there

5 were holes in the wood.

6 Q. What was the door made of?

7 A. The door was made of wood. It was the same in all the houses in

8 the Old Town. The only two materials you find are wood and stone.

9 Q. Was the inside of the shop damaged?

10 A. Just behind the door there was a counter with a till, the phone,

11 that sort of thing, the sort of thing you find there. The till had been

12 damaged, broken. Part of the counter itself, the shells inside where

13 provisions were kept, those that were near the door had also been damaged.

14 So there was a lot of damage in terms of what was inside the shop.

15 Q. Were there people living upstairs on the day of this attack, that

16 is the 6th of December, 1991?

17 A. On the first floor there was an old lady living there who had --

18 who died five or six years ago. She slept all the time -- I think for two

19 or three months she slept at the Revelin fort. She would sometimes walk

20 home during the day. She would do some cleaning, and she would regularly

21 go back to the Revelin fort because that's where she slept.

22 Q. Do you know whether she was home on the day of the -- day of the

23 attack, that is the 6th of December, 1991?

24 A. No.

25 Q. That is no, you don't know; or no, she wasn't home?

Page 2957

1 A. Not as far as I know. I don't think she was home.

2 Q. You also described damage to a staircase. Is there a staircase in

3 the street the shop's located?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was that the staircase you're referring to?

6 A. Yes, that's the one I had in mind. It's outside in the street,

7 and then the street goes up towards the Old Town, St. Mary. That's what

8 it's called, and that's -- that's where there is a staircase. In the Old

9 Town, practically all the streets are on a slope with the possible

10 exception of the Stradun, but all the other streets have stairs.

11 Q. How was that staircase damaged on the 6th of December?

12 A. Well, the whole staircase, two shells had landed directly on that

13 staircase, and the steps were demolished. There was a crater where the

14 two shells fell. So the steps -- the stone steps were broken all around

15 and damaged, those that were higher up. So there was a lot of damage

16 there too. It was very difficult to go down, to walk down that street on

17 the day after everything had happened.

18 Q. How far is the staircase from the shop?

19 A. It -- just outside the shop, actually.

20 Q. Do you know the name of the building opposite the Orthodox church

21 which you saw on fire on the 6th of December?

22 A. I don't know what the name is. It's a huge palace. I think

23 probably the name is indicated on the map. I know where it is, but I

24 don't know the name.

25 Q. You also described another palace being ablaze. Do you know the

Page 2958

1 name of that one?

2 A. Well, that one was on fire, and the one on Siroka Street was on

3 fire too. There were shops on the ground floor there, and now there's a

4 post office. Another building that was on fire was the one on the

5 Stradun, the Dubrovnik summer festival building.

6 Q. This damage you've just described seeing on the 6th of December in

7 the Old Town, was that there on the 5th of December?

8 A. No. No. There was none of it on the 5th of December. It was

9 only earlier on in October those two shells landed, I think. It was in

10 Miha Pracata Street. But those two incidents are completely unrelated.

11 This was the Old Town. And after the shelling, it no longer looked like

12 the Old Town. It was just ruins and smoke, fire, rubble. It looked like

13 anything else that I might think of, but it was no longer the Old Town

14 that we used to know.

15 Q. Did you see any United Nations or UNESCO flags in the Old Town

16 before the 6th of December?

17 A. In the Old Town, on the Orlando column, on Fort Minceta, on Fort

18 Lovrijenac, on Fort Boka, at the Pile Gate, up on the bastion where we had

19 Croatian flags and still do, but I think as early as October and November

20 the Croatian flags had been taken down and UNESCO flags had been hoisted

21 up, and UN flags too. The Sponza Palace, too, sported a flag. The

22 rector's palace, the Little Brethren monastery. The Dominican monastery

23 had flags. It was marked as a monument of culture. But all of this,

24 apparently, was of no use, because many people who lived in the

25 surrounding areas, in Gruz, in Lapad, who had friends or relatives in the

Page 2959

1 Old Town had moved to the Old Town to stay there because they believed

2 that the Old Town would be safe from harm, that it would never be

3 targeted. Unfortunately, it happened.

4 So all those important buildings in the Old Town had been marked

5 long before the whole thing happened.

6 Q. I'm going to show you a map.

7 MR. RE: I'm showing the witness a copy of the Prosecution Exhibit

8 P13, which is the large map of the Old Town. I'll ask him to mark various

9 things on it.

10 Q. Mr. Jovic, can you find -- can you find your shop on the map?

11 Just point to it.

12 A. The shop is on Miha Pracata Street. The -- further down the

13 street, I could mark it if you want me to, it's past Nikola Gucetica

14 Street and Pecarica Street, that's where the shop is, halfway through the

15 street.

16 Q. I want you to take a pen, and I want you to draw an A, the first

17 letter of the alphabet, in circle. Actually, don't do a circle, just draw

18 a little square. Draw a square where the shop is and put an A inside it.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Now with a B, I want to you mark -- just wait until I tell you

21 exactly. I want to you mark where you and Tonci were when the shell

22 landed, and I also want you to put an arrow facing in the direction in

23 which you were facing. Do you follow what I mean? A B for where you were

24 standing and an arrow for the direction in which you were facing or

25 standing.

Page 2960

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. I want you to put a C for the stairs that you described, or maybe

3 you could even draw the stairs in. They're not actually marked on this

4 particular map. The stone stairs at the end of the street.

5 A. Yes. Well, it's right here where the street begins and where it

6 ends, and this is where it cuts across Nikola Gucetica Street, and then

7 there's a staircase up there.

8 Q. Can you just draw some lines across the street to indicate the

9 staircase.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. What I want you to mark is where the shells landed and damaged

12 that staircase. Don't draw it over the B. Perhaps if you put the C --

13 just stop. Perhaps if you put the C just to the left where the buildings

14 are, with an arrow pointing down to it, in the same way you've drawn the

15 A. Put the C off the street, with an arrow pointing to the spot.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Now, you mentioned you saw a house on fire near the elementary

18 school. Could you please mark that, again with a box and a D. That is

19 the house on fire.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Can you see the Orthodox church on that map?

22 A. You can't see it here, but you can see the block of buildings

23 where the church is.

24 Q. Can you mark with --

25 A. It's right here near the number 21.

Page 2961

1 Q. Can you mark that with an E, that is, where you saw the building

2 opposite the Orthodox church burning.

3 A. Letter E?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. You mentioned another palace whose name you didn't give us which

7 was burning. Can you mark that on the map, too, please, with an F.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And is that next to the post office?

10 A. Yes. Yes. That's just where the post office is today.

11 Q. You also mentioned some other buildings which you saw on fire.

12 Can you mark the next one with a G.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Do you know the name of the building you've just marked with a G?

15 A. Well, this is the Dubrovnik summer festival building. I'm not

16 sure what the official name of the palace is.

17 Q. Okay. Did you see any other buildings on fire; and if so, can you

18 mark it with an H.

19 A. As I came out of the building, there was nothing on fire there any

20 longer, only the Hotel Opat [phoen] Pile. I think it's the Ana Hotel.

21 Q. Is that outside the Old Town?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. RE: Can I ask the usher to mark it on the side with a legend,

25 Your Honour, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H? Maybe, maybe not?

Page 2962












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2963

1 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it can be done, perhaps during the break.

2 MR. RE:

3 Q. Can you please put your name down the bottom, just on the bottom

4 of the map somewhere, write your name, sign your name, and put today's

5 date, which is the 23rd of February, 2004.

6 A. [Marks]

7 MR. RE: Would that be an appropriate time, and it could be marked

8 during the interval?

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We will break now for 20 minutes.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Re.

13 MR. RE: I understand during the break that court officials have

14 made some markings on the map. Could I just have a look at it, please.

15 And on it is written A, Mr. Jovic's shop; B, location where Jovic and

16 Tonci stood when shell landed, arrow indicates direction they were facing;

17 C, staircase with arrows where shells landed and damaged staircase; D,

18 location of house near elementary school on fire; E, location of building

19 near Orthodox church which was burning; F, location of palace near post

20 office which was burning; G, other buildings on fire (Dubrovnik summer

21 festival building); and H, there's nothing next to it.

22 Q. Which brings me to H, Mr. Jovic, just before we broke. I'm not

23 quite sure if it's completely clarified: Were there any other buildings

24 which you saw burning in the Old Town which you could mark on that map

25 with an H?

Page 2964

1 A. Yes. In the Old Town, there probably were. There were a lot of

2 damaged houses because only few houses did not suffer a few -- or some

3 hits. I only drew here the houses which I saw at the moment we were

4 leaving Old Town and were homebound, for which I'm sure -- which I'm sure

5 were on fire.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. RE: May that map be tendered into evidence, please.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P75.

10 MR. RE:

11 Q. Mr. Jovic, how many employees did Mato Skocko have as of the 6th

12 of December, 1991?

13 A. On the 6th of December, we in the shop were I myself, my sister,

14 his son Tonci, and Mato Skocko. There was another lady by the name of

15 Silva. I'm not sure of her last name. She wasn't an employee. She also

16 worked in the Lapad area but didn't show up for work on that day.

17 Q. Are you able to -- I'm sorry. Did you go back to the Old Town the

18 7th of December?

19 A. Yes. Yes, we did. After I -- I had gone to Gruz to have my wound

20 dressed, then we went to Old Town again, but already there were several

21 thousand people on the Stradun who had come to see what had happened, so

22 at a certain point the city was overcrowded with people who were cleaning

23 up, and in these old houses which -- these old houses which have been set

24 on fire were still smouldering. The city was in a disastrous state. One

25 could only then see what had really happened. All the cross streets were

Page 2965

1 buried under the rubble, the debris, the timber, the brick that had

2 fallen, the tiles that had fallen off the roofs, and the Stradun was a

3 veritable dump, garbage dump. That is how the main street of the town

4 looked.

5 Q. Did you assist in the clean-up?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. What repairs were made to Mato Skocko's shop as a result of the

8 attack on the 6th of December?

9 A. On the 7th or perhaps in the afternoon of the 7th, or the same day

10 on the 7th or in the morning of the 7th, the -- some people came who just

11 carried out makeshift repairs on the door, just boarded them up -- them up

12 rather -- it up, rather, before the new door was installed, and then they

13 changed, replaced the till because the old one was no longer usable. Then

14 they took away some crates with shattered glass because the bottles had

15 been all shattered by the explosion. So we cleaned on that day and on the

16 8th and resumed normal work on the 9th or so.

17 Q. What was the effect of the UN and UNESCO flags in the Old Town on

18 the people of Dubrovnik and the people of the Old Town? Sorry, the morale

19 of the people of the Old Town of Dubrovnik itself.

20 A. The UNESCO and United Nations flags which had been hoisted on the

21 ramparts and the forts around the Old Town and the protected cultural

22 monument buildings actually instilled some confidence and a feeling of

23 security in the citizens, because the citizens thought because of that, as

24 did I, that because of that the city was not be targeted or shelled. In

25 fact, they not only thought that this would not happen, but also that the

Page 2966

1 international community and the rest of the world would protect the Old

2 City. Regrettably, that did not -- that's not the way it turned out to

3 be. So that people lost faith in the United Nations as well as all these

4 other institutions which were supposed to protect them but didn't.

5 Q. As far as you knew in October, November, and December, up until

6 the 6th of December, 1991, were there any military installations or

7 mortars located in the Old Town?

8 A. There were -- not that there were no mortars in the Old Town.

9 There were no -- there was no -- there were no troops. There was no army.

10 Perhaps a soldier or two would show up in town because they came home on

11 furlough, but there were no military positions in the Old Town of

12 Dubrovnik at all.

13 MR. RE: That's the examination-in-chief, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Re.

15 Mr. Rodic.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Will Mr. Usher please give me the lectern.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jovic, good morning. I'm Goran Rodic, an

20 attorney-at-law. I shall be asking you some questions in connection with

21 the testimony which you have given.

22 At the outset, I should like to ask you, since we speak a similar

23 language, to wait until my question has been translated so that we do not

24 overlap and make the work of the interpreters difficult.

25 Can you tell me, where exactly do you reside in Gruz?

Page 2967

1 A. Stjepan Cvijica Street.

2 Q. Is this a family house, a residential house?

3 A. It is a flat.

4 Q. Who do you live with there?

5 A. Do you mean then or now?

6 Q. Then.

7 A. It was me, my wife, my daughter, my mother, and my grandmother.

8 Q. Is it true that immediately prior to the beginning of this war you

9 started working in this shop?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. Tell me, you completed your military service in 1993, did you not?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. When you returned to Dubrovnik, were you assigned to a war duty

14 station, and to what unit?

15 A. I was assigned to the Territorial Defence.

16 Q. And what particular assignment did you have in the Territorial

17 Defence?

18 A. I was the same thing as the training that I had received in the

19 army, which is the -- an operator of Maljutkas.

20 Q. In the period from 1983 to 1991, did you participate in any

21 military exercises as a reservist?

22 A. No, I did not. I only was there twice in Trebinje, that is, in

23 the Trebinje barracks, where we had such trainings for the Maljutka. It

24 was a sort of training drill, and we had those on two occasions.

25 Q. Then as a reservist in the Territorial Defence, were you a part of

Page 2968

1 the Trebinje Brigade?

2 A. No. No. This was the Dubrovnik Territorial Defence. That is

3 what it was called.

4 Q. You said that the -- you were issued the call-up, the mobilisation

5 summons from the military commission, which was brought to you by the

6 postman who had also been mobilised, did you not?

7 A. Yes. That was what I said. He probably had also been mobilised.

8 Q. Can you tell us something more specific about when the general

9 mobilisation, general call-up was declared?

10 A. The mobilisation started sometime before, perhaps already around

11 the time -- around the end of September, rather, the 25th, 26th, or 27th

12 of November, by the time the attacks on Konavle had started.

13 Q. Was the general mobilisation publicised through the media in any

14 way; via radio, television?

15 A. I do not know that.

16 Q. Was -- did general mobilisation involve all men fit for service?

17 Were they supposed to report to the nearest duty stations or units or

18 military departments?

19 A. As far as I know, those who received the -- were issued with such

20 call-up summons actually did report.

21 Q. But when general mobilisation is in question, the people can

22 report also without being summoned.

23 A. Probably, yes.

24 Q. You said that -- that you received the summons at home and then

25 that you responded either -- or, rather, that you -- the station to which

Page 2969

1 you were supposed to report was in Gruz at the Hotel Stadion; is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was there at the Hotel Stadion also -- were there also a number of

5 members of the National Guard Corps?

6 A. At that time, no. As far as I know, they were at the Vila Rasica,

7 the National Guard Corps.

8 Q. Were there any units or positions around the Hotel Stadion?

9 A. No, there weren't.

10 Q. When you departed that place, the Hotel Stadion, when you were

11 sent to Rasica, were you not put up at the Hotel Vrtovi Sunca?

12 A. Yes, we were. Excuse me. No, we were not.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not quite sure what the

14 witness said.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. For the record, because of a mistake in the transcript, were you

17 transferred from the Hotel Stadion to Orasac, and were you accommodated

18 there at the Vrtovi Sunca Hotel?

19 A. From the Stadion hotel, the five or six of us who were there went

20 on a -- in a private car to Orasac, to the Vrtovi Sunca Hotel.

21 Q. Were there any members of the Croatian National Guard there?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Does this mean that it was only the five of you who were at the --

24 represented at the Hotel Vrtovi Sunca and in the area generally speaking,

25 some soldiers?

Page 2970

1 A. What we were, what we represented, whether we were soldiers, that

2 is hard to say. We were sent there for -- in order for the army or the

3 police to bring us these Maljutkas, but we had no weapons, we had no

4 uniforms.

5 Q. Were you supposed to use these Maljutkas to open fire at the JNA

6 gunboat if you received them?

7 A. Yes, we were.

8 Q. Don't tell me it was just five of you who were supposed to fight

9 against JNA battleships.

10 A. I said that that was why we were sent there. Now, of course the

11 army which was around was not in Orasac yet because Orasac was not

12 liberated yet. Maybe towards the area of Slano there were some soldiers.

13 But there were none in Orasac.

14 Q. Were -- where were the closest positions of the Croatian army, to

15 the best of your knowledge?

16 A. In the area of Slano, as far as I know. Down there towards

17 Trebinje.

18 Q. Who was supposed to give you these Maljutkas?

19 A. Probably someone was supposed to drive them up to that point, and

20 we were there waiting at the Hotel Vrtovi Sunca. There was no electricity

21 at that time. We were sleeping there, and we had our meals also there

22 because -- and of course lots of other people had begun to flock in as

23 refugees because they were fleeing.

24 Q. Those who were supposed to bring the Maljutkas to you, how would

25 that someone make a distinction between you and the refugees who were

Page 2971

1 there?

2 A. They knew where we were.

3 Q. And who was it that was supposed to bring them to you?

4 A. Probably someone from the Civil Defence, the Territorial Defence,

5 the police. Someone was supposed to bring them and then give them to us.

6 Q. Who was to give you your instructions as to your mission, as to

7 your task and your concrete operation against the -- and the positions

8 that you would take with these weapons?

9 A. We were supposed to establish such positions ourselves on -- and

10 this person who had this van also was supposed to take us there, and we

11 were supposed to establish position vis-a-vis the two ships in the

12 channel.

13 Q. Did you do any reconnaissance of the terrain while you were

14 waiting for the Maljutkas to see where the most favourable location would

15 be?

16 A. Yes. We walked around, but we didn't identify or find the

17 specific position until getting the Maljutkas -- and we didn't get the

18 Maljutkas, so it all ended there.

19 Q. What -- would these Maljutkas have been delivered to you at the

20 hotel?

21 A. Probably not at the hotel. Probably somewhere along the road or

22 the coast, and then we would take them in the van or the car to the point

23 desired.

24 Q. Where can one approach by car?

25 A. To the sea line, to the sea coast.

Page 2972

1 Q. Then should your position from which to open fire, should it have

2 been somewhere close to the sea, close to the coast?

3 A. Yes, it should have been.

4 Q. Were these positions prepared beforehand or would you be using

5 existing structures?

6 A. Nothing was prepared beforehand.

7 Q. I imagine you would not be opening fire from the beach.

8 A. Perhaps we would have been, because one really didn't know. You

9 had a ship which was sailing in the channel, which was opening fire at

10 civilians and trucks perhaps. Who knows what concrete positions we would

11 have adopted had we received those weapons and from which point we would

12 have opened fire.

13 Q. I don't believe in your military training that you completed with

14 the JNA --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- you were trained to open fire from a Maljutka unprotected

17 vis-a-vis the target that you were targeting.

18 A. This was a different time. You couldn't really apply everything

19 that you learned in the army and dig trenches around Orasac in order to be

20 able to follow a particular principle in order to open fire at those

21 ships.

22 Q. Can you tell me who sent you there specifically? Who sent you to

23 Orasica on that mission?

24 A. Those people from the recruitment office.

25 Q. Who specifically?

Page 2973












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Page 2974

1 A. I can't remember specifically. I don't know. I don't know what

2 their names were. Right now I can't remember.

3 Q. Do you not remember a single name, someone you were in touch with

4 about that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And where was the recruitment office where the people were who

7 sent you to Orasica [as interpreted]?

8 A. What do you mean?

9 Q. What is its location, the location of the recruitment office who

10 told you to go there?

11 A. Well, it's -- the distance is about 500 metres from the Stadion

12 Hotel where we were staying. It's near Buninovo.

13 Q. This is the general direction of the Old Town?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who called you there to receive your tasks?

16 A. This gentleman walked down to the hotel.

17 Q. Which gentleman was that? What was his name?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Was he a soldier wearing a uniform? Did he have any rank

20 displayed?

21 A. He was a civilian at that time.

22 Q. Did you know that man personally before this mission, before this

23 situation that we have spoken about?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How come he knew exactly who -- who to speak to and how you would

Page 2975

1 meet?

2 A. Perhaps he knew my first and last name.

3 Q. Did anyone call out names when they came?

4 A. When he came, he was looking specifically for the four or five of

5 us who were there, because we had been called up.

6 Q. So who in that group should have been the commander, should have

7 been in charge, should have told the others what to do?

8 A. Well, that was not the main thing. It wasn't a proper army.

9 There was no such structure in place.

10 Q. Does that mean that among the five of you everyone was free to do

11 whatever they liked?

12 A. Well, yes, in a way. Anyone could have just walked off. Anyone

13 could have decided not to join us. They were free to do so. No one was

14 forced to go.

15 Q. When you receive a mobilisation call, it's some kind of

16 obligation, isn't it? It's compulsory, isn't it?

17 A. Well, yes, I suppose, but that was a very different time and there

18 were strange things happening down there. What befell Dubrovnik at the

19 time was a war we had not been prepared for. We had not seen it coming.

20 Q. You said that you took an Atlas boat to go to Babin Kuk on your

21 way back from Orasac.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What sort of an Atlas boat was that? Was that a tourist boat?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So, then, what about the Croatian navy? Had it been commandeered

Page 2976

1 by the Croatian navy?

2 A. No, it was used for the transport of civilians from Orasac back to

3 the town. That's what it was used for.

4 Q. Was it used to transport soldiers too?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Well, what did you do back in Babin Kuk? Which unit was it that

7 was stationed there?

8 A. It was no unit, really, nor did we do anything particular there.

9 We just got off the boat there. We reached the Stadion Hotel to see who

10 we should speak to there, who we should report to and how, but some of the

11 people had already left for their positions, and we didn't find anyone

12 there. So a man came along and told us sort of to -- to go up to the

13 recruitment office and see what we should do, and then we went there and

14 we found some official or other who couldn't tell us what to do or where

15 to go. So that's why I went back home.

16 Q. So this Atlas boat, instead of going to Babin Kuk, why didn't it

17 go straight to the Gruz harbour?

18 A. I don't know. Probably that was the quickest route. This way it

19 was able to make two or three rounds a day and transport more people.

20 Q. This -- this man you reported to later at the recruitment office,

21 was that a different person from the person who sent you to Orasica?

22 A. Yes, this was yet another person.

23 Q. Did you know that man?

24 A. No.

25 Q. In answer to one of the questions by the OTP, you said that on the

Page 2977

1 4th or 5th of October you reported back to the command.

2 A. Yes, by the time I got back I did.

3 Q. Can you tell me what sort of a command that was and who was in

4 charge?

5 A. Look, when we were back, we had been in Orasac. We had been there

6 for three or four -- well, actually the 1st of October, when the attack

7 began, the attack against the town, then we were off to Orasica and stayed

8 there for three or four days, and on the 4th, when Slano had fallen, the

9 civilians from the surrounding villages were fleeing Slano and they were

10 going to Dubrovnik. Most of those had arrived at the Vrtovi Sunca Hotel,

11 and then we went back and there was a van there, and it remained where it

12 was at Zaton.

13 We went to Babin Kuk on the 4th, and then we reported to this

14 whatever its name was, the recruitment office up there where this command

15 was. Now, whether it was the command of the town defence or not, I don't

16 know, but I don't think so.

17 Q. Who was the commander at that specific command where you reported?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. You said that since you had no weapons, you just went back home to

20 Gruz.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Tell me, sir, which unit had you been assigned to on the 31st of

23 December?

24 A. To no unit. I said that I had not been in the army by the 31st of

25 December.

Page 2978

1 Q. What about from then on?

2 A. Well, yes, later on in March or April.

3 Q. Where were you, in which unit?

4 A. The 163rd Brigade.

5 Q. The ZNG?

6 A. The Croatian army.

7 Q. And where was this 163rd Brigade of the Croatian army deployed?

8 A. Around Dubrovnik.

9 Q. Can you tell us about the specific positions?

10 A. I was at the island of Lokrum. I'm sorry, on Kolocep.

11 Q. What about the other elements of the brigade?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Tell me, on the -- in October and November, did you transport food

14 up to the positions of the Croatian army on Srdj?

15 A. No. We didn't drive a transport food there. We once brought it

16 up there.

17 Q. When was that?

18 A. In November at some point.

19 Q. Can you specify?

20 A. The 10th, the 15th of November; I don't know.

21 Q. How many times did you go up?

22 A. Once. It was only this one day.

23 Q. How did you get through all the way to Srdj?

24 A. We walked.

25 Q. Did you do this together with Tonci Skocko?

Page 2979

1 A. No.

2 Q. Who with, then?

3 A. There were other civilians there who were assisting, who came to

4 help on that day. Maybe the next day it was someone else. I couldn't

5 say.

6 Q. Where from were you taking this food? Who tasked you with this?

7 A. That's up towards the Old Town, towards Sipsin. It's near

8 Glavica. We would take it up as far as there by van, and since the road

9 was blocked on all sides, you had to carry it up the hill.

10 Q. Was one man enough to take the food up?

11 A. I didn't say only one man.

12 Q. How many of you then?

13 A. Maybe five, six, ten of us. Seven, ten, I don't know. I don't

14 know how many we were at the time.

15 Q. You were all civilians?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who was it that gathered you and selected you, the specific seven

18 or eight civilians -- Can you please wait until I finish the question.

19 Who was it that selected you, that went about town, as it were, and picked

20 out civilians to carry food up to Srdj? Who was it?

21 A. It was no one in particular. It was no one who selected us.

22 People just came by and volunteered. They would bring the food there in a

23 van and then they would ask the civilians who were passing by. Some

24 people agreed to do it and some didn't.

25 Q. Who would you report to and where in order to assume this task?

Page 2980

1 A. I was just walking by.

2 Q. Walking by where? Can you specify?

3 A. Glavica.

4 Q. So at Ilijina Glavica, that's where you found someone who told you

5 to take food up to Srdj?

6 A. Yes. Or, rather, no. He didn't tell us, he asked us if we could

7 do that.

8 Q. Can you tell us specifically who was it that asked you at Ilijina

9 Glavica to take food up to Srdj, to carry food up there?

10 A. Well, some military authority or other. I can't really say who.

11 Q. It was a military official, wasn't it?

12 A. I suppose. I suppose so. I guess.

13 Q. At Ilijina Glavica there's a post office there, isn't there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Are there any pine trees in the surroundings?

16 A. Around the post office, you mean?

17 Q. No. At Ilijina Glavica near the post office. Is there a green

18 area nearby with trees?

19 A. No, not around the post office.

20 Q. So where?

21 A. Well, further down, towards the hotel perhaps. Whatever its name

22 is at Pile, Bogisica Park. That's further down towards the Old Town.

23 Q. And what about Ilijina Glavica? What about Ilijina Glavica? Were

24 there any Croatian artillery positions there?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 2981

1 Q. Did you take that route very often on your way from Gruz to the

2 Old Town, that's past Ilijina Glavica?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you ever hear sounds of firing from those places?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And where is Bogisica Park in relation to Ilijina Glavica?

7 A. It's nearer the Old Town.

8 Q. And what is the distance between Ilijina Glavica to Bogisica Park?

9 A. I how should I know? 500 metres?

10 Q. How much further from Bogisica Park to the Old Town?

11 A. Well, it's just around the corner from Bogisica Park. You have

12 the hotel and then the Pile Gate, the Pile area, and then the Old Town.

13 Q. In terms of metres, how many metres, roughly speaking?

14 A. Well, altogether perhaps two kilometres. Two kilometres, perhaps

15 two and a half.

16 Q. From Bogisica Park to the Old Town?

17 A. No. I said from Ilijina Glavica.

18 Q. Well, my question is about the distance between Bogisica Park and

19 the Old Town.

20 A. Well, I don't know, I have no idea. A kilometre perhaps.

21 Q. Who did you deliver food to up on Srdj?

22 A. Well, the army.

23 Q. Who did you report to?

24 A. I don't know. Well, I suppose there was someone up there who was

25 in charge back then.

Page 2982

1 Q. Did you know any of the soldiers up there?

2 A. Not -- not really.

3 Q. How old were you back in 1991 when the whole thing began?

4 A. The -- well, how old? Twenty -- 28.

5 Q. You were 28 and you still knew no one around Dubrovnik?

6 A. Well, perhaps I did.

7 Q. But you wouldn't tell, would you?

8 A. Well, I didn't know those specific people. Was I supposed to know

9 them?

10 Q. Did you take food to any other positions of the Croatian army?

11 Please wait until I finish asking the question and then you pause and then

12 you answer. Can you please answer now.

13 A. No.

14 Q. What colour was the vehicle you used to transport food?

15 A. We didn't transport food. We walked up there, up the hill. You

16 understand? You can't drive a vehicle up that slope.

17 Q. What was the food in?

18 A. Those crates, whatever. Bread in sacks, things like that.

19 Q. Tonci Skocko, what was his assignment in October and November and

20 December?

21 A. He was not assigned anywhere. He worked at the shop.

22 Q. His father says he didn't want to leave Dubrovnik for Zagreb and

23 that he wanted to stay and defend Dubrovnik.

24 A. I'm not sure what his father said. You should ask him perhaps.

25 MR. RE: I object. This is a fact not in evidence at this point.

Page 2983

1 There's a proper way of leading this evidence, and I submit this is not

2 the way to lead it. It should come through the father.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll move on to a

5 different question, but it is quite true that I did not quote from Mato

6 Skocko's statement, but I don't think it was a misinterpretation on my

7 part necessarily. But I will move on, however.

8 Q. Tell me, sir, Tonci's father was the manager at that shop, wasn't

9 he?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was this shop privately or socially owned at the time?

12 A. It was the Mediator private company.

13 Q. So who owned this private company?

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the name.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Can you please just repeat the name?

17 A. Mirko Obrvan.

18 Q. The soldiers in the Old Town came to your shop to get their

19 supplies, didn't they?

20 A. No. I'm not sure what you mean about soldiers and supplies and my

21 shop.

22 Q. The soldiers who were in the Old Town, did they come to your shop

23 to buy things? Did they come into your shop to buy something?

24 A. Well, perhaps they were if they were on leave, if they had time

25 off to get bread or cigarettes or whatever.

Page 2984












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2985

1 Q. Certainly they were not forbidden from buying in your shop.

2 A. No. As I said, if they were free to move about, probably they

3 would come around our shop too.

4 Q. What did they usually buy from you? What did you keep?

5 A. By then, before the boats started coming, there was no

6 electricity, no water, and we hardly had anything to keep. We had some

7 canned food and whatever we could get from the other shops that we had in

8 Lapad and in Gruz, and from there we would take goods to the Old Town.

9 There were cans of food, perhaps some drinks, fruit juice, cigarettes, the

10 bread that we brought there every morning, but the quantities were

11 decreasing on a daily basis.

12 Q. Did the soldiers then buy the canned food and fruit juice?

13 A. Well, yeah, I suppose, perhaps for their family and themselves.

14 Q. Did you sometimes give them stuff for free and told them that they

15 were not supposed to pay?

16 A. No. This was not the case.

17 Q. Where were those soldiers put up? Please, please. Can you just

18 hold on a second until I finish asking the question. Are you angry

19 perhaps or something?

20 A. No. No, no. Just ask away.

21 Q. So my question is about the soldiers who came to your shop to buy

22 things. Where were they put up?

23 A. Those were perhaps soldiers on home leave, because they were not

24 staying in the Old Town. Perhaps they had homes in the Old Town.

25 Q. Did you know any of those soldiers who lived inside the Old Town?

Page 2986

1 A. Well, yes, several.

2 Q. Do you remember a single name?

3 A. Well, yes, I do, but why should I tell you?

4 Q. Well, just to verify if your memory is correct.

5 A. I wouldn't like to say.

6 Q. So what is the reason for you not to -- not to want to mention

7 these names?

8 A. I'm not sure if I should talk about these people's names. I think

9 we should respect their privacy.

10 Q. You're afraid to mention any specific names?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Again I must ask you to wait until I finish asking my question and

13 then you can provide an answer.

14 Are you afraid to mention any names of Croatian soldiers from that

15 period?

16 A. No, I'm not afraid.

17 Q. Well, why is it that you don't want to tell us?

18 A. Well, I just don't. Personally, I'm not willing.

19 Q. So you refuse to tell us other information in relation to the

20 Croatian army in Dubrovnik then?

21 A. Well, I'm just not prepared to speak about these things. If you

22 ask me about other things, I'll do my best.

23 Q. Well, how then can we trust you by half? You don't want to speak

24 about the names of Croatian soldiers, but you can tell us about other

25 things that are related to the Croatian army.

Page 2987

1 A. I'll tell you what I think is important, but I don't think these

2 soldiers' names are really relevant to this Court.

3 Q. So in your answers you take it upon yourself to distinguish what

4 is important and what isn't?

5 A. Well, I think I know what's important to be said in front of this

6 Court.

7 Q. Did anyone draw your attention to these things prior to your

8 testimony? Did anyone tell you what you were supposed to speak about and

9 what not?

10 A. No. I wasn't really ready for these questions, so that's why I'm

11 reluctant to speak about these things.

12 Q. Which questions were you prepared for?

13 A. Well, what I came here for; the 6th of December. I was not

14 prepared or briefed, but I'm supposed to tell the story of what happened

15 in the town on that day.

16 Q. Who was it that briefed you or prepared you?

17 A. No one. I prepared myself for this testimony.

18 Q. Can you describe for us at least one Croatian soldier whom you saw

19 in your shop in the Old Town where you worked or whom you saw in the

20 street? What did one Croatian soldier look like?

21 A. A person with a head, with legs, with arms, with eyes, just like

22 any other human being.

23 Q. And how did you -- could you tell that he was a soldier?

24 A. Because he would be wearing a uniform.

25 Q. What armaments would he have?

Page 2988

1 A. They did not carry any arms in Old Town.

2 Q. You didn't see a single person with a rifle in the Old Town?

3 A. Not in the Old Town, no.

4 Q. And where would they place the weapons when they entered the Old

5 Town?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Were there any rifle racks at the entrance to the Old Town where

8 one would deposit one's weapons prior to going into the city?

9 A. No, there weren't, but perhaps they would leave them at their

10 positions or wherever they felt it was needed. I don't know.

11 Q. Can a soldier leave his rifle just like that, any place during a

12 war?

13 A. I only know it was specifically forbidden by the police for

14 weapons to be introduced into the Old Town, as well as by the army.

15 Q. Was there any person in charge who had issued this prohibition?

16 A. The police. And of course they -- probably they had their own

17 commander who had issued this order.

18 Q. Would at times the police perhaps arrest a soldier who was

19 brandishing a weapon in the Old Town?

20 A. Probably, yes.

21 Q. I'm talking about the civilian police.

22 A. Well, I don't know whether the civilian police would have. Of

23 course there were both police there.

24 Q. Where was the military police then? Was it on duty controlling

25 these things in the Old Town?

Page 2989

1 A. Well, there were only two entry gates. I mean, there was nothing

2 to control.

3 Q. So there was no civilian and military police deployed in order to

4 maintain law and order?

5 A. Well, they were there, walking about Old Town.

6 Q. Was the civilian police armed, was the military police armed?

7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic, it's getting more consistently the case

8 that each of you are coming in too quickly and making it difficult for the

9 interpreter, particularly Mr. Jovic. If you would wait, when Mr. Rodic is

10 asking a question, for a little pause before you answer. Often I can see

11 you think of an answer before the question is quite finished, and you

12 immediately come in with it, and that is creating a problem because it's

13 too fast for the interpreters.

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Well, thank you, Your Honour. We'll

15 try again to slow things down.

16 Q. So my last question was: The military police and the civilian

17 police, were they armed in Old Town as people in charge of controlling law

18 and order?

19 A. Yes, and they had their arms, standard police arms.

20 Q. What kind of armaments are we talking about?

21 A. Well, probably pistols and what have you.

22 Q. Are there military policemen who carry rifles?

23 A. Well, sometimes, yes, sometimes no. Sometimes they had small

24 rifles, sometimes a pistol and a rifle.

25 Q. Did you know any members of the military police force?

Page 2990

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Were there perhaps on the military police force people who resided

3 in the Old Town and were familiar with the area?

4 A. Well, perhaps there were. I don't know.

5 Q. And where, then, were these military police and civilian police

6 housed in the Old Town?

7 A. Depended on their respective houses, where they lived. Some would

8 come there. Some would be on duty. It depends on the particular case.

9 Q. Was there a building in the Old Town where they had their

10 headquarters from which their shifts would be rotated because no one could

11 be on duty for hours on end, for 24 hours?

12 A. As far as I know, no. The civilian police was -- and I don't know

13 where the military police was. Perhaps it was the Hotel Neptun, I'm not

14 sure.

15 Q. Did the military police and civilian police go on patrols through

16 city?

17 A. Yes. They -- they patrolled the Old City.

18 Q. When I say patrol, I mean whether they went in pairs.

19 A. Yes, usually it was in pairs.

20 Q. Was there any special police in the Old Town?

21 A. Not to my knowledge.

22 Q. Did you hear perhaps that some members of the special police force

23 were accommodated in Old Town and some of them at Srdj?

24 A. Definitely not -- none of them were accommodated in Stari Grad, in

25 the Old Town, as far as I know.

Page 2991

1 Q. And had you heard of the Sokol unit of the Croatian Party of

2 Rights?

3 A. Sokol?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Were there any members of the HOS that you came across in town?

7 A. I don't know how they were distinguished from other soldiers.

8 Perhaps there were some. Perhaps by some insignia that I really didn't

9 care to look at.

10 Q. Were there any conflicts in Dubrovnik between the HOS and the

11 Croatian army?

12 A. I don't know about that.

13 Q. And you heard nothing of the kind?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. At what positions of -- in Old Town were there sentries manned by

16 soldiers, sentry posts?

17 A. In Old Town?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. As far as I know, there were none. At least, I didn't see any.

20 Q. Are you trying to say that the entrances and exits to and from the

21 Old City, you didn't see any soldiers standing guard?

22 A. I didn't.

23 Q. What about policemen?

24 A. Well, there were policemen. They patrolled the city. They were

25 patrolling the Stradun, and they were there at certain points in town.

Page 2992

1 Q. Were there not any soldiers standing guard at the Rector's Palace

2 and at the town hall?

3 A. No, there were no soldiers. It was the police. It was the

4 reserve police force that was there.

5 Q. And where were these reservists, reserve police force?

6 A. They were on duty there.

7 Q. Where were they on duty?

8 A. There, in the town hall.

9 Q. Meaning inside the municipal building, the town hall? I was

10 asking about the security in front of the building. Was anyone securing

11 the building in front of it?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How many of them were there there?

14 A. Well, perhaps one or two. It depended. It varied. As far as I

15 could tell, there were one or two.

16 Q. Well, how could you tell? How could you see when they were

17 inside?

18 A. Because the door was open at all times during the day.

19 Q. At that time, that is to say from October to December 1991, did

20 you ever go inside that building at all?

21 A. The town hall building?

22 Q. Yeah, the Rector's Palace.

23 A. Yes, perhaps once or twice.

24 Q. Can you tell us on what business you went inside?

25 A. I believe that we took some merchandise from the shop in there on

Page 2993

1 several occasions. Toilet paper and things like that.

2 Q. I presume -- I suppose you also brought food there.

3 A. No, we didn't.

4 Q. Just -- it was just toilet paper?

5 A. Well, yes, to the best of my recollection. Perhaps some cleaning

6 stuff as well.

7 Q. Who ordered these things from the municipality?

8 A. They did.

9 Q. Who is "they"?

10 A. Probably the lady's secretary or whoever was employed there and

11 who was in charge of such things. They would order these things by

12 telephone.

13 Q. And the Crisis Staff was there as well. Weren't their needs

14 larger?

15 A. Not in the Old Town, no.

16 Q. And where was the Crisis Staff?

17 A. If my memory serves me well, it was in the building of what is now

18 the power distribution authority building that was above the Vila Palma,

19 above the police building.

20 Q. Was Pero Poljanic in the Old Town?

21 A. He was the president of the Crisis Staff at the time.

22 Q. Was Pero Poljanic sitting in the town hall near the Rector's

23 Palace?

24 A. I don't know. He may have been there. I don't know.

25 Q. Was Zeljko Sikic there?

Page 2994

1 A. Zeljko Sikic was there most of the time. In fact, I don't know.

2 Q. Where was Zeljko Sikic most of the time?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Why have you stopped?

5 A. I haven't.

6 Q. And Nikola Obuljen?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Were there any guards near the aquarium?

9 A. I don't know. I never went there.

10 Q. Where are Ploce?

11 A. Ploce are at the south exit from the city.

12 Q. Was any ammunition kept there?

13 A. At Ploce?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Did you hear perhaps that this was a safe place for it and that

17 that is why it was being kept there?

18 A. At Ploce? I don't know why. In fact, I don't know at all where

19 ammunition was being kept.

20 Q. Do you know Mato Valjalo from the town hall who drove Zeljko

21 Sikic?

22 A. I'm familiar with the name but I don't know that he drove him,

23 that he was his driver.

24 Q. You said that at the end of the October or in early November you

25 witnessed an attack on Dubrovnik from land and from battleships, from

Page 2995












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Page 2996

1 gunboats at sea.

2 A. Yes. This was this lengthy attack which lasted some five or six

3 days.

4 Q. You said that you saw the area of Lapad and Babin Kuk. Can you

5 tell me from which point you were observing this?

6 A. From my flat.

7 Q. You said that on that occasion the hotels Kompas, Plakir, Park and

8 Palace were hit, were they not?

9 A. Yes, they were. Not only these places but a number of private

10 houses in Babin Kuk, and a couple of civilians were also killed or,

11 rather, three or four civilians got killed in Babin Kuk, in their private

12 home.

13 Q. Tell me, and I am primarily interested in hotels, that is why I'm

14 stressing them, tell me, did you see this while the attack was going on or

15 after the buildings were hit?

16 A. As for the Hotel Kompas and the Hotel Park, they -- I can see them

17 directly up to the area where the Hotel Splendid is, and I cannot see the

18 Hotel Neptun. This is quite far, but these two first ones I could see.

19 Q. Meaning that you observed this as the fire was being opened during

20 the operation.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The Croatian army, did it succeed in repelling the attack?

23 A. I don't know. The attack lasted for about five or six days, the

24 most intense portion of the attack. And then I heard on the news, and it

25 was in the papers, some sort of a cease-fire had been signed.

Page 2997

1 Q. Were there any Croatian military nearby around those hotels?

2 A. You mean those hotels over there?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. As far as I know, there were positions up there at the fort on top

5 of Babin Kuk, but I'm not sure if there were any other positions or not.

6 Q. Was anyone firing from there? Was anyone defending?

7 A. Well, as far as I know, I didn't see anything like that.

8 Q. Well, it can't be the case, can it, that in all of five days no

9 one was firing back from the area?

10 A. Well, at least to the extent that I was able to see there was

11 nothing like that. Now, what anyone else was doing, I really can't say.

12 Q. Well, it was in that period of time that some Croatian military

13 were put up at the Stadion Hotel, wasn't it?

14 A. That period of time, I don't know. I wasn't there at the time, so

15 I can't say.

16 Q. Well, whose headquarters were at the Kompas Hotel?

17 A. No one's headquarters. The Kompas Hotel, I think those were only

18 civilian refugees.

19 Q. Near the Kompas Hotel, was there a base for Croatian naval boats?

20 A. I think it was Kompas and Neptun Hotels.

21 Q. The Lapad inlet.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many Croatian war boats were there at Lapad?

24 A. I don't know exactly.

25 Q. Did you personally see any boats there?

Page 2998

1 A. Not then. Not at the time. It was later in March when I was on

2 my way to Kalamota that that was our departure point.

3 Q. Those hydrofoils, were those used to transport people? Were

4 reinforcements being brought in from Ston, were they used for that?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Do you know a man called Mato from the port authorities who drove

7 a hydrofoil like that?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. What about the diving instructor from the local club, the one who

10 didn't have a leg? He also drove a hydrofoil. Did you know that man?

11 A. No. I know one, a man with a beard who drove. He was a bit

12 older. I don't know what he was specifically, but he drove a hydrofoil,

13 but that was later, in 1992.

14 Q. Was movement restricted in the area of the Palace Hotel, Vila

15 Rasica. The town hospital, and Gorica?

16 A. I don't know. I'm not familiar with that. But I don't believe so

17 because there were hotels brimming with refugees there.

18 Q. In this area I've just mentioned, were there any Croatian military

19 in this area?

20 A. Yes, up there where they were stationed, at Vila Rasica.

21 Q. Were there any artillery positions there, a self-propelled

22 machine-gun?

23 A. I don't know that.

24 MR. RE: Your Honours.


Page 2999

1 MR. RE: It's not an objection. I'd just ask my learned friend to

2 specify when. When he's asking the witness questions about various things

3 like this, that he actually specifies when he's referring to; otherwise

4 it's particularly vague in the transcript.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I think that could be useful, Mr. Rodic. We've

6 spanned quite a time in the questions.

7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, except for when I

8 specified the dates, all the questions I ask are in relation to the period

9 between October and December 1991. My questions are always about that

10 period of time.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Well, that hasn't been clear until now. So the

12 answers may not have reflected that to now, but we'll keep that in mind

13 for the future, Mr. Rodic. Thank you.

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. During those five days that you refer to during the attack, you

16 said that the warehouse at the Gruz port had burned down, didn't it?

17 A. Yes, for the most part.

18 Q. Do you know a man named Jadranko Delas from the municipal

19 Secretariat for National Defence?

20 A. Delas.

21 Q. Yes, Delas.

22 A. The name doesn't ring a bell.

23 Q. Do you know that Dubrovkinja lorries were used to transfer weapons

24 and ammunition over from Ploce?

25 A. I didn't know that.

Page 3000

1 Q. Did you know that there were weapons being stored between link 8

2 and link 9 at the warehouse in Gruz and that this was what burnt down

3 during the attack on the Gruz harbour?

4 A. No. I didn't know this. As for the Gruz harbour, I know that it

5 was on fire, but wooden structures such as warehouses were burning. I'm

6 not sure what was in those. Coffee stored, perhaps. There was a huge

7 freezer with bananas.

8 Q. As far as I understand, coffee and bananas can't just explode like

9 that.

10 A. I'm not saying that they exploded.

11 Q. But you didn't hear any explosions in the harbour itself?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Able-bodied men, were they allowed to leave Dubrovnik? 1st of

14 October until the 31st of December, 1991.

15 A. I don't think they were allowed to leave. I think one needed to

16 apply for a special permit from the Crisis Staff to leave the town of

17 Dubrovnik. Those who were ill perhaps later on were taken on ships in

18 mid-December.

19 Q. So between the 1st of October and the 31st of December,

20 able-bodied men were supposed to obtain a special permit from the Crisis

21 Staff if they wanted to leave the area of Dubrovnik town; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who specifically in the Crisis Staff was in charge of issuing this

24 permit?

25 A. I didn't apply for one myself, therefore I don't know.

Page 3001

1 Q. Where specifically did you go to get one?

2 A. As I said, I think the Crisis Staff headquarters were at the

3 Electroprivreda building.

4 Q. Do you know who was in charge of issuing those permits?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know where Tonci Skocko lived?

7 A. At Zlatni Potok.

8 Q. What about Captain Cengija? Didn't he hold positions there for a

9 while?

10 A. I don't know. No, no, not there. Those were residential

11 buildings. Maybe further up behind the Belvedere Hotel. That's where the

12 positions were.

13 Q. Do you know who Captain Cengija was?

14 A. I believe he's actually a general, isn't he?

15 Q. Did you hear about Aziz Suljevic from the police?

16 A. I think he was a commander of the military police, wasn't he? But

17 I'm not sure. I heard the name.

18 Q. Did you hear about Dajdza?

19 A. Yes, I heard of him.

20 Q. What was his position?

21 A. I think he was back in Cepikuce as far as I know.

22 Q. And later in the Dubrovnik area?

23 A. I don't know. I don't think he was there but I can't say.

24 Q. Do you know Zoran Primic [phoen]?

25 A. Primic?

Page 3002

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know what was there at the Zagreb Hotel?

4 A. Then? I don't know.

5 Q. Between the 1st of October and the 31st of December.

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. What about Nojko Marinovic? Was he there?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. You don't know or you're not supposed to say?

10 A. I don't know. He didn't really show civilians around and show

11 them where he lived.

12 Q. Do you know Kreso Mandic who was the commander of the special

13 police at Plato [phoen]?

14 A. He used to work as a driver for Djuro Korda.

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. Do you know Stjepan Medjat [phoen]?

17 A. Medjat.

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. I don't think I've ever heard that name. Perhaps a similar one

20 but not that one.

21 Q. Nojko Marinovic's driver?

22 A. No.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this would be a

24 convenient time for a break.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, yes.

Page 3003

1 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Jovic, in addition to those days that you mentioned, the days

6 in October, November, and December 1991 when the shop was closed, your

7 shop, when it was closed, and you described the reasons, between the 1st

8 of October and the 31st of December, did you go to work in

9 the Old Town all the time to work at the shop?

10 A. Yes, except for the four days or five days at the beginning and

11 another five or six days in November and the 6th, 7th, and 8th of

12 December. Aside from that, I went to work all the time. On the 6th I was

13 there at the shop, but not on the 7th or 8th. That's when the shop was

14 closed.

15 Q. Very well. When you leave home, when you leave Gruz and you go to

16 work, you go to the Old Town. Can you describe the route you usually

17 take.

18 A. I would go down to the port in Gruz first. That's where the

19 driver lived who drove the van that we used to transport bread. So I

20 would drive together with him. We would stop by the bakery and then drive

21 past Ilijina Glavica and Zlatni Potok and on to the Old Town.

22 Q. I'm sorry, I don't think I understood. You drive past Ilijina

23 Glavica and then where do you go next?

24 A. Then we go to the area that is usually referred to as Kapelica,

25 and then down past the fire brigade building where the funicular is, and

Page 3004

1 then you take a roundabout route past Zlatni Potok, and then you reach the

2 town gates so you can drive into the town with a van.

3 Q. Could you drive through the Pile Gate?

4 A. No. You never drive through the Pile Gate. That's not the

5 direction you need to take if you want to drive into the Old Town.

6 Q. When you mentioned this van, do you mean the vehicle you described

7 as a caddy?

8 A. Yes, that's the one.

9 Q. This type of vehicle, is it a Golf caddy?

10 A. No. It was -- what's the name? Zastava 101, a small pick-up. It

11 was closed at the back.

12 Q. This van, this pick-up truck, which gate did you use to enter the

13 old town?

14 A. The Ploce Gate. We drove through the Ploce Gate. That's the gate

15 we took. That's where we came in and that's where we came out also.

16 Q. How can you get there? Which road do you take to get there?

17 A. To the Old Town?

18 Q. Yes, to the Old Town.

19 A. As I said, you take the roundabout road through Zlatni Potok,

20 because that's where the road takes you, and then past the Excelsior

21 Hotel, and then you reach the Ploce Gate. That's a one-way road.

22 Q. Did you -- did you drive over a pontoon, a bridge to reach the Old

23 Town?

24 A. Well, it's not really a pontoon bridge. It's just a bridge at the

25 gate. Just outside the gate. It's an old bridge. It's been there for

Page 3005

1 the last 10.000 years, since 1.000 -- I can't remember when.

2 Q. In relation to those stairs you were talking about, where did you

3 leave the vehicle? Where did you park it?

4 A. The driver would drive back, would just unload the bread, and then

5 the driver would go back near the Rector's Palace, and then we would use

6 some sort of a cart to -- to transport these goods to the shop.

7 Q. During this period when you went to work regularly, did you hear a

8 general alert being sounded in Dubrovnik, the siren?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was it always sounded when the town was fired on?

11 A. Yes, almost always. As soon as there was firing on the town. I

12 mean the town, I mean Lapad, I mean Gruz.

13 Q. So what would people do once the alarm was sounded?

14 A. At first everyone would run to the shelters. There were few

15 shelters. And later on, people would just take shelter wherever they

16 were, in their private houses, or if the house had a cellar. Those who

17 felt safe where they were just stayed there. Some people went to the

18 shelter, and some people were at work and couldn't leave. They would come

19 to the shop, for example. A general alert had been sounded, so they would

20 just stay where they were.

21 Q. Did you go to -- to any of the shelters during that period of

22 time?

23 A. No, not in the Old Town. As I said, we felt that the Old Town

24 would not come under attack. It wasn't only me. We all felt safer in the

25 Old Town.

Page 3006












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3007

1 Q. With the exception of the 6th of December, you said that in

2 October, two shells had landed on the Old Town. That's what you said, I

3 believe.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You said those two shells fell on Miha Pracata Street.

6 A. I think it was that street.

7 Q. You also said that no one was wounded on that occasion.

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. About the general alert, when the general alert is sounded and the

10 firing begins, when you were at the shop, in terms of its size, did you

11 feel safe there?

12 A. We didn't feel safe in the shop, but we felt safer because we were

13 in the Old Town, after all, and we thought that the Old Town would not be

14 targeted. We were convinced, because it was a UNESCO World Heritage Site,

15 that the Old Town would not be targeted. So that many people who lived

16 inside the Old Town felt the same way.

17 Q. Were there people inside the Old Town who, as soon as the general

18 alert was sounded, ran to the shelters?

19 A. Yes, quite many of the people, in fact. There were elderly

20 people, too, who even slept in shelters. They were afraid.

21 Q. On the 6th of December when the firing began, was the alarm

22 sounded?

23 A. Yes. The siren went off early in the morning, at about 6:00 in

24 the morning, I believe, as soon as the first shells started landing on the

25 town, on Lapad, on Gruz, at about 6:00, half past six in the morning.

Page 3008

1 Even before shells started landing on the Old Town, the general alert had

2 been sounded.

3 Q. What about those two shells in October, the shells that landed in

4 Miha Pracata Street? Do you know where exactly those two shells landed?

5 Was there any damage?

6 A. One fell on the pavement, and I think one was lodged inside the

7 stone facade of one of the buildings there.

8 Q. Do you know which street number specifically?

9 A. No, I don't.

10 Q. Those five days in November when you said there was a lot of

11 shelling, where did you stay during that period of time?

12 A. Back at my place in Gruz.

13 Q. After those five days, you went back to work regularly, didn't

14 you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. There were no changes or damage to the Old Town at that time?

17 A. No, except for those two shells.

18 Q. Those two we said had landed in October; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. One thing I forgot to ask you when we spoke about the 163rd

21 Brigade of the Croatian army, who was the commander?

22 A. When I was there, I think the commander was Nojko Marinovic.

23 Q. Did you hear of the 116th Brigade of the ZNG, the National Guard

24 Corps?

25 A. There were many of these numbers, and I don't know.

Page 3009

1 Q. How many numbers? How many different brigades were there, roughly

2 speaking, in the Dubrovnik area?

3 A. Well, there were none before the 31st of December. At least, the

4 163 was not there because it had not been established yet. I think it was

5 only established as late as January or February.

6 Q. What about elements of the 114th and 116th Brigade?

7 A. No. I don't think they were deployed there.

8 Q. What military units were there in October, November, and December?

9 A. Well, the only thing that was there was the National Guard Corps

10 at Vila Rasica. I'm not sure how many people exactly, but there could not

11 have been a lot of people. I think 200 at the most. There were those

12 civilians who were part of the civilian defence.

13 Q. Did you see any armed people with -- carrying infantry weapons?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What were those soldiers carrying?

16 A. Rifles. Because at that time it was hard to tell. One could not

17 distinguish. All these were actually civilians. There were few soldiers.

18 All of these were civilians who lived in houses to defend their homes. If

19 you met a person with a rifle, you knew that that person was a soldier.

20 Q. Meaning that there were also civilians who were carrying weapons,

21 in civilian clothes.

22 A. Excuse me?

23 Q. In view of the lack of uniforms, this means that there were people

24 wearing civilian clothes who were also carrying weapons.

25 A. Yes. Initially I believe all of them were like that, because

Page 3010

1 there were no uniforms. With this exception of the National Guard Corps.

2 The Territorial Defence members, some of them wore the former JNA

3 uniforms, perhaps just the trousers or the boots, and then they would

4 place a different insignia as a mark of distinction.

5 Q. And where were the mortar positions?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. Is it correct what you've just said that the positions of the JNA

8 at -- on land were Osojnik, Mokosica, Orasac, Rozat, all the way up to

9 Sustjepan, Brgat, Bosanka, a part of the Srdj?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And where were the Croatian positions?

12 A. Some of them were down there, as far as I can remember, at the

13 Kantafig at the exit from Gruz, Sustjepan, Srdj, near the Hotel Belvedere.

14 Q. Around the Hotel Belvedere was this the last line of defence of

15 the Croatian army?

16 A. Yes, I think so. Yes, it was.

17 Q. And what was housed there? What was located there at the

18 Belvedere?

19 A. As far as I know, just the army. I don't see how anything else

20 could have been there.

21 Q. But was there any artillery there?

22 A. No, there wasn't.

23 Q. Did you ever see or hear in the region of Dubrovnik that the

24 Croatian army had any mortars or cannon or the like?

25 A. At that time, I believe that the only thing they had as far as I

Page 3011

1 had heard was -- that was up there at the Gradac Park, they had some, but

2 I'm not sure.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Will Ms. Usher please present to the

4 witness Defence Exhibit number 31. If -- given our time constraints, if

5 you also could be so kind as to prepare D28, 32, and 35, and P24, please.

6 Q. Are you familiar with this section of the city?

7 A. I cannot find my feet here.

8 Q. Can you associate this with the -- with the Bogisica Park?

9 A. Well, yes. The forest perhaps can be a link, but I don't know

10 from which position this shot was taken.

11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Please then show the witness

12 photograph D28. Can we have a colour photograph, please.

13 Are these marks are actually D, Defence. So it's D28, D31, D32,

14 D35. So Defence exhibits.

15 Q. Are you familiar with that position?

16 A. The photograph tells me nothing really.

17 Q. This civilian --

18 A. I fail to see anything much. No.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Can you then show the witness the next

20 photograph, please.

21 Q. You refer to the Gradac Park. You said that you heard that there

22 were artillery positions there.

23 A. What I said was that perhaps there were mortars there.

24 Q. We have a cannon, a gun in Gradac Park. Did you ever hear of a

25 gun being there?

Page 3012

1 A. No. No. And this photograph could have been taken anywhere or of

2 anyplace. It doesn't really tell one it's precisely Gradac Park.

3 Q. Let us then take a look at the following, at the next photograph.

4 Did you ever see a three-barrelled gun, a truck-mounted three-barrelled

5 gun there?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you hear that there existed a truck-mounted three-barrel gun

8 there?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you hear that the mortar had been positioned or, rather,

11 mounted upon a truck in the same way?

12 A. No.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I no longer need those

14 photographs. Can we now have Prosecution Exhibit P24, please.

15 Q. The second photograph down here. Did you ever see this armoured

16 personnel carrier, this armoured vehicle?

17 A. I saw it at the very beginning the war.

18 Q. Do you know who was using it?

19 A. No, I don't.

20 Q. As this person -- it is, rather, armed with a heavy machine-gun.

21 Do you know at what positions it was?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever hear anything about it?

24 A. No, I didn't.

25 Q. Can you recognise this location where this photograph was taken?

Page 3013

1 A. Well, perhaps near the Vila Palma where the police is, but I'm not

2 sure. I cannot say with precision really.

3 Q. All right. Thank you. You can return the photograph.

4 Do you know who was the head of the police department in

5 Dubrovnik?

6 A. Just give me a minute. I'll try to recall.

7 Q. Can I remind you, was it perhaps not Djuro Korda?

8 A. No, it wasn't.

9 Q. And were the armaments and military equipment at the Vila Palma?

10 A. I don't know about that. The police was there.

11 Q. And in front of the Vila Palma, were there any anti-aircraft,

12 three-barrelled guns, namely the gun which used to be mounted on the

13 police patrol boat near Srdj?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Were there any Croatian troops at the Hotel Dubrovnik President?

16 A. The Hotel Dubrovnik President at Babin Kuk?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. I don't know. I don't believe so, because this was in Babin Kuk

19 and in Minceta I know there were refugees, and in Plakir and Argos. I

20 believe that in all the hotels there were refugees. Perhaps not at the

21 President because it is the most seaward hotel.

22 Q. At the Hotel Neptun?

23 A. There were no refugees at the Hotel Neptun, as far as I know.

24 Q. I'm not asking you about refugees. I'm asking about soldiers

25 and --

Page 3014

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. -- and units in and around the hotel.

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. The Hotel Petka in Gruz?

5 A. No.

6 Q. In the zone Hotel Neptun, the Solitudo camp and the Kompas Hotel,

7 were there any troops there?

8 A. I don't know. Perhaps at the Neptun Hotel -- by the Neptun Hotel

9 there were some. I don't know about the other ones. In Kompas I don't

10 know. In Solitudo, I don't know. Perhaps down there at the beach or

11 somewhere thereabouts.

12 Q. At the Montovjerna zone were there emplacements of mortars and

13 anti-aircraft guns?

14 A. These positions were dug in in only 1992, I know that, and that

15 was later.

16 Q. Apart from Gradac near the Radio Dubrovnik building, were there

17 any pieces of artillery?

18 A. No. I don't believe so.

19 Q. Are you familiar with the zone called the Chinese Wall?

20 A. That is in Lapad.

21 Q. Yes. Were there any positions there, army positions?

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the answer.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Were there mortars in Pile?

25 A. No, there weren't. Because I pass there every day and I didn't

Page 3015

1 notice any.

2 Q. You said that you passed by the opposite end, the one in Ploce.

3 A. Yes, but of course when one came to town one had to go through

4 this gate to go to Buninovo. There was no other way.

5 Q. And at Pile near the bus roundabout, was there one of the ZNG

6 headquarters?

7 A. At Pile? No. No, where the buses turn, no.

8 Q. And near the old people's home, were there any Croatian soldiers

9 there?

10 A. In the town, in the Old Town, or up there near Buninovo?

11 Q. Both.

12 A. I know that there were none in the Old Town. As for the other

13 place, I don't think there were any there either.

14 Q. Were there elements of the Croatian navy in Batale?

15 A. You mean Batala.

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I don't think so. I don't believe so. Batala is right next to

18 the stadium and the bus station down there. This is an inlet in the Gruz

19 harbour.

20 Q. Were there ZNG members near the Libertas Hotel?

21 A. I don't know that.

22 Q. Passing through town, did you ever see bunkers established there?

23 A. In the town.

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. You mean the Old City, the Old Town, or the city of Dubrovnik?

Page 3016

1 Q. For instance, by the post office?

2 A. Which post office?

3 Q. Outside the Old City.

4 A. But there are five of them.

5 Q. Where you take your road home.

6 A. The Glavica, no.

7 Q. At the Hotel Petka?

8 A. A bunker? No, I didn't see one.

9 Q. I say a bunker. It doesn't have to be a built pillbox. What I

10 mean, it can be a structure like a sandbag, something of the kind.

11 A. Well, these are not bunkers. We had a shelter erected in our own

12 building so that people could take shelter there in the cellar. Now, if

13 that considered to be a bunker, then we had one.

14 Q. Maybe I gave it the wrong term. What I was talking about are such

15 positions which were militarily regulated and where there were soldiers;

16 for instance, near the access to the main road near the health centre.

17 A. That is near Glavica, up there.

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. I didn't go up there.

20 Q. And in front of the electrical power authority building.

21 A. I don't know. I don't think so. No.

22 Q. Near the city market.

23 A. You're talking about the one in Gruz or the one in town?

24 Q. In town.

25 A. No.

Page 3017












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Page 3018

1 Q. Near the petrol station?

2 A. Where?

3 Q. Towards Gruz.

4 A. There is one at the station. Where? Which one are you referring

5 to? Did you see any one established near any petrol station?

6 A. No.

7 Q. At the Adriatic Hotel?

8 A. No. I never went there.

9 Q. Did you see any such arranged positions, for instance, with

10 sandbags anywhere?

11 A. I did see such positions, but only later. At Kantafig, at the

12 exit there under the bridge, at the exit from Gruz. Not in the town

13 itself, really.

14 Q. When you say "later," when was that?

15 A. I mean later in 1992.

16 Q. When in 1992? Early?

17 A. No. Later, May or June, after the army had withdrawn from

18 Mokosica.

19 Q. As you spent most of the days inside the Old Town between the 1st

20 of October and the 31st of December, did you ever hear or see firing by

21 the Croatian artillery from inside Dubrovnik, this period of time?

22 A. By the 31st of December, you mean. Well, the only thing I heard

23 was up on Srdj, thereabouts, Sustjepan, around Belvedere, about -- no --

24 yes, Belvedere.

25 Q. Was that artillery fire you heard?

Page 3019

1 A. You heard explosions. Everyone was shooting. It was difficult to

2 say whether it was artillery fire or something else. There were

3 shoot-outs with bullets, hand-to-hand combat, rifle fire. That was the

4 most frequent sound on both sides.

5 Q. From both sides rifle fire was the most frequent sound you heard;

6 right?

7 A. Yes. That was practically non-stop.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown P75,

9 P75.

10 Q. Do you know what a UNESCO flag looks like?

11 A. It was a white flag with a coat of arms, some sort of escutcheon

12 inside on it, the UNESCO sign.

13 Q. And what about the flag or emblem that you referred that had been

14 displayed on certain buildings?

15 A. That was it went like this and it went like that and it said

16 "Monument of Culture" in the middle.

17 Q. Which colour?

18 A. Also white.

19 Q. So just white.

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. RE: Your Honours, the witness indicated something -- I could

22 see from this angle, indicated something on the table in front of him.

23 Perhaps that could be described for the record. The "It went like this

24 and went like that" bit.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Were you pointing to something on the map there,

Page 3020

1 Mr. Jovic?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can draw it for you on a

3 slip of paper.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] There's no need, Your Honour. Maybe

5 this can be used on redirect if this needs verifying. I would like to

6 move on now, if I can, please.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Please do.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Can you please display on the ELMO, so we can all see, your own

10 markings. Well, actually, it's clear enough. A -- if we can just zoom in

11 every so slightly, please.

12 This building that you marked as A, that's your shop; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is it true that the letter B marks the spot where Tonci Skocko and

15 you were standing?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The arrow in front of the letter B is the direction you were

18 facing. You were facing the Stradun, weren't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Behind you is this point just behind the letter B. There's an

21 arrow and the letter C marking the spot. This marks the spot where the

22 shell landed, doesn't it?

23 A. Well, yes, roughly speaking the letter B, okay, but it was within

24 a radius of ten metres.

25 Q. I know we can't attain for very high degrees of accuracy if we're

Page 3021

1 using this map, but roughly speaking, I want to know if you can tell me,

2 please, in relation to this position marked as B, the shell landed about

3 ten metres behind where you were standing. Am I correct in assuming that?

4 A. Yes. One fell just in front and one fell behind us. The first

5 one -- the one that was behind was the one which fell first.

6 Q. Will you please point it out.

7 A. The one that is marked in black.

8 Q. So which was the shell that caused your injuries?

9 A. The one that fell lower down, the second one.

10 Q. So which one is that?

11 A. This second arrow lower down.

12 Q. Can you please point it out to us.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. So how much time elapsed between those two shells?

15 A. Well, 15, 20 minutes perhaps. Perhaps even less. I can't say.

16 Q. Does that mean that you spent those 15 or 20 minutes just standing

17 there in the street?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Or you came out twice?

20 A. No. No. I said the first shell fell.

21 Q. Which was the first shell? Can you please show that on the map.

22 A. Yes. The one marked in black. The first shell fell. It

23 ricochetted and then it smashed the window and the door.

24 Q. Just a moment, please. So when the first shell fell, it fell

25 about ten metres from the building marked as A. At that point in time you

Page 3022

1 were not standing outside in the street.

2 A. No, I wasn't. But it was outside the building marked as A, in the

3 street.

4 Q. After that first shell landed, did you come out to see where it

5 had fallen?

6 A. No. That's not why we came out but, rather, one of the customers,

7 as I said, came in and said that the house marked as D was on fire.

8 Q. Can you please tell me where the shelter was.

9 A. It was just across the way from -- from the house marked as D, the

10 elementary school building.

11 Q. Can you please show us on the map.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. So that's where the shelter was?

14 A. Yes, that's the elementary school building.

15 Q. The elementary school building and the shelter.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is there a music school nearby?

18 A. Well, that's -- that's further up the street. It would be about

19 this building.

20 Q. That's the music school.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So within that circle we have the music school, and where the

23 letter D is, that's the house across the way from the elementary school;

24 isn't that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3023

1 Q. The 15 or 20 minutes that elapsed between the two shells, as you

2 said, did you leave the building to go outside the shop again?

3 A. No, just that once.

4 Q. In relation to the time when you went out, how much time had

5 elapsed before the second shell landed?

6 A. Perhaps a minute or two.

7 Q. How far were you from your shop when the second shell landed?

8 A. It's all on the stairs outside the shop.

9 Q. Were you standing exactly outside the door or did you perhaps move

10 towards the building marked as D?

11 A. No. We faced the same way as the building marked as A. We were

12 standing right there next to that building, on the staircase.

13 Q. How far from the door of the building marked as A were you

14 standing?

15 A. Perhaps one and a half or two metres. The street itself is not

16 much wider than that.

17 Q. A metre and a half or two towards the building marked as D?

18 A. No, no. If you face directly across. So it was around here, on

19 this street. That's how big the street is, and that's where we were

20 standing.

21 Q. On that morning, did you leave the shop a number of times to see

22 where the shells were falling?

23 A. No, we didn't. Not in the morning. We were working. We were

24 selling bread and whatever we had in the shop, and customers kept coming

25 in. After 7:00, no one came, after the shells had started falling on the

Page 3024

1 town. All you could hear were explosions.

2 Q. Did anyone move in the direction of the music school?

3 A. No. Perhaps I saw one man when the house was on fire after we

4 come out. There was a person who ran across the street to the shelter.

5 Like this. This is the house where the person entered.

6 Q. Did anyone from the police question you about the injuries you

7 sustained, your injuries, and the wounding of Tonci Skocko?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did anyone question Tonci Skocko's father in relation to that?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Do you know if an on-site investigation was carried out after

12 Tonci Skocko's killing?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Can you at least roughly determine the time when this happened in

15 the morning, the wounding and the death?

16 A. The whole thing began at about 7:00. It may have been about 8.00

17 or 9.00, half past nine perhaps, thereabouts.

18 Q. Are you familiar with Pavo Djivanovic from Ljuta? He was born in

19 1959.

20 A. The name rings a bell, but I can't quite --

21 Q. What about Vlaho Momkovic from Ljuta, who lives in Cavtat?

22 A. No, not really.

23 Q. As you had worked together for a long time, did you socialise with

24 Tonci Skocko?

25 A. Tonci started working with us back in 1991, I believe, early

Page 3025

1 summer. We would visit him at his home in Ljuta, his father's home, his

2 father Mato, for a while, but we didn't really socialise. There was a

3 barbecue that we organised there. It was in 1991.

4 Q. Did Tonci mention these two people as friends?

5 A. He may have, but it's difficult for me to remember now. Maybe he

6 did and maybe he didn't.

7 Q. Tonci resided at Zlatni Potok, number 6.

8 A. I can't give you the exact number, but he did reside at Zlatni

9 Potok.

10 Q. Can you please explain why in this report on the external

11 examination of dead bodies dated the 7th of November, 1991, this report

12 was compiled on behalf of the investigating magistrate of the district

13 court with crime technicians and police inspectors present, why does it

14 say that Tonci Skocko was killed near the music school which is in a

15 totally different area from the one you pointed out?

16 A. I'm not sure why that's what is stated there. It was all nearby,

17 so perhaps people just put down the wrong place. Someone said something

18 about the music school.

19 Q. What is the distance between the music school and your shop,

20 roughly speaking?

21 A. 13 or 14 metres [as interpreted], perhaps.

22 Q. Did you say 30 or 40 metres?

23 A. Yes, thereabouts, not more than that.

24 Q. Do you remember what Tonci Skocko wore on that day?

25 A. He had a jersey, long sleeves. Well, now, probably he had pants

Page 3026

1 on him. I don't know. I no longer remember. It's been a long time. I

2 know he had this jersey that he had wrapped around himself.

3 Q. With buttons or a different kind?

4 A. No, just an ordinary jersey. Perhaps with a few buttons here on

5 top.

6 Q. Was he wearing anything else?

7 A. I don't know. Perhaps not. Trousers, a tracksuit, shoes.

8 Q. When we say "trousers," you mean jeans, trousers, something like

9 that? You say pants colloquially, and then probably training shoes?

10 A. Yes, that's what I mean.

11 Q. Do you remember the colour of the clothes he wore?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. If I'm not mistaken, you said that you personally carried him into

14 the vehicle and that the clothes got caught in the door.

15 A. Yes, the jersey in question.

16 Q. The jersey. What was the colour?

17 A. I think it was yellowish, but it's -- it's been such a long time.

18 I don't think I can remember.

19 Q. Did anyone show you a photograph of the body of the late Tonci

20 Skocko later on?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Who told you that he had been hit in the heart by a piece of

23 shrapnel?

24 A. His father.

25 Q. You said that you noticed a small injury on his body which you

Page 3027

1 described as the size of a grain of corn.

2 A. Yes, thereabouts.

3 Q. Can you please describe where exactly this injury was located on

4 the body.

5 A. In the chest.

6 Q. Which side; left or right?

7 A. The right half, I think.

8 Q. Although general alert had been sounded that morning on account of

9 the shelling, you, as I understand, left the shop, went outside the shop,

10 and you were smoking outside the shop, if I understand you correctly.

11 A. I'm afraid you got it wrong. What I said is that when we arrived

12 in town at 6:00 or half past six, the general alert had been sounded, and

13 then later there was firing on the Old Town and shells started falling.

14 So no one came to the shop after that. It's only the few people who were

15 already there. Those people stayed. And when I say we went outside, yes,

16 we may have gone outside for a minute or two to light a cigarette or

17 something like that. We may have been outside for just a brief while when

18 he was killed.

19 Q. Was it not risky during a general alert and after you'd heard a

20 shell fall nearby on Miha Pracata Street for you to leave the shop and

21 smoke outside in the street unprotected like that?

22 A. Yes. Sure, it was risky. It happened, and I still feel guilty

23 about it. I felt guilty about it for a long time afterwards. Perhaps I'm

24 partly to blame, but the reason we went outside was to see the house just

25 across the way that was on fire.

Page 3028












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3029

1 Please go ahead.

2 Q. Did Tonci's father Mato warn you not to go out during the

3 shelling, not to leave the shop?

4 A. Yes, he did.

5 Q. So how many times did you sort of peer out like that and he had to

6 warn you repeatedly?

7 A. No, it was only that one time, and he said, "Don't go out," but we

8 did. That was the only time, as far as I remember.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mr. Rodic, that we might have to interrupt

10 you at this point. We must adjourn until tomorrow.

11 I must ask you to come back tomorrow morning, Mr. Jovic.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 24th day of

14 February, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.