1 Thursday, 25 March 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.29 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. I must apologise that a matter
7 caused the Chamber to be delayed coming in. I'm sorry that we kept you
9 Yes, Ms. Somers.
10 May I remind you, Admiral, of the affirmation you took at the
11 beginning of your evidence, which still applies.
12 Ms. Somers.
13 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 WITNESS: MIODRAG JOKIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examined by Ms. Somers: [Continued]
17 Q. Good afternoon, Admiral Jokic. I wanted to quickly return to a
18 few points from yesterday's examination and ask you about
19 Captain Kovacevic a little more. During the time period that the 3rd
20 Battalion of the 472nd Brigade was subordinated to you, did
21 Captain Kovacevic report to you or to General Strugar?
22 A. To me.
23 Q. May I just notify the transcript people that it reads 422. It
24 should read 472nd. That's line 20.
25 Are you aware of any exceptions where Captain Kovacevic reported
1 to General Strugar and not to you?
2 A. I can only say that he often went to the command post in Trebinje
3 because the brigade was his superior unit and the brigade was located in
4 the Trebinje area. Therefore, the communication between him, the brigade
5 command, and the command of the 2nd Operational Group was quite assiduous.
6 This was much closer for him to get to in terms of distance, and also in
7 terms of, perhaps, his objectives.
8 Q. However, your command post was at Kupari; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. In terms of military hierarchy, it would have been quite in
10 order for him to report on a daily basis in the evening at about 5.00 in
11 the afternoon as all other commanders used to come. However, on account
12 of problems in his own battalion, he often reported that he was unable
13 to -- to make it there because he was busy where he was. I would usually
14 accept this, Chief of Staff or myself, whoever received the report.
15 Q. But he was to have reported to you in Kupari?
16 A. Yes. He often phoned.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you describe the relationship as you saw it
18 between General Strugar and Captain Kovacevic?
19 A. At the beginning I was not aware of that naturally, but during the
20 course of my command and later, I understood clearly that General Strugar
21 was very fond of Captain Kovacevic and that he was impressed by him. This
22 was a brave man, after all, held in high esteem, capable. He was even
23 physically attractive as a soldier, as an officer. So he impressed
24 everyone favourably. I don't know if they used to know each other earlier
25 or not, but I understood clearly that he enjoyed all of the general's
1 support and protection. There were one or two particular instances that I
2 heard of this later on.
3 Q. Are you aware of any gifts or special favours between
4 Captain Kovacevic and General Strugar?
5 A. Yes. This is something I heard later on in 1992 when the
6 Dubrovnik operation was over. He was awarded a flat in Podgorica,
7 skipping people who had been ahead of him on the waiting list, in return
8 for which I believe he gave a passenger vehicle as a present.
9 Q. When you say he was awarded a flat, Admiral, to whom are you
10 referring? Who is he?
11 A. I mean Captain Kovacevic.
12 Q. Admiral, you mentioned earlier that Captain Kovacevic's objectives
13 were closer to Trebinje. What did you mean by that?
14 A. What I had in mind was that his command was located in the
15 Trebinje area and he knew all those people there, at the command post of
16 the 2nd Operational Group. He also had people who he cared about, and
17 they cared about him, too. As for us sailors, to our command he was a new
18 face; I'd never seen him before. Therefore, he spent more time with those
19 people since they were part of his original command, and everything he had
20 was there. He was only temporarily resubordinated to me, only for those
21 specific operations.
22 Q. Thank you, Admiral. His obligation, however, was to report to
23 you. That is correct?
24 A. By all means, which he did.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. Whenever he had to. It's just I'm saying that --
2 Q. Thank you, Admiral Jokic. I just want to clarify a point. You
3 said that Captain Kovacevic was given a flat. Now, who gave him a flat?
4 A. General Pavle Strugar was the commander of the 2nd army in
5 Podgorica at the time, the army that had been set up in the meantime.
6 Q. And he gave -- you're saying that General Strugar gave him the
8 A. That's what he told me. I heard that from him personally.
9 Q. From whom? From whom?
10 A. From Captain Kovacevic.
11 Q. And who gave Captain Kovacevic the vehicle? Who gave
12 Captain Kovacevic the vehicle?
13 A. He, Captain Kovacevic, gave the vehicle to General Strugar.
14 That's what I said.
15 Q. Thank you. How would you characterise your relationship with
16 General Strugar?
17 A. As a subordinate commander, I had a fair, correct relationship
18 with him. We never clashed, not officially, in no way at all, and I think
19 I was loyal to him in every way. We knew each other from before, not too
20 well, but while I was the commander of the Boka sector and he was the
21 commander of the Montenegrin Territorial Defence, we saw each other
22 occasionally. There were no problems between us, no problems of official
23 or personal nature. At least from my point of view, there were no
25 Q. Excuse me, Admiral. Did you have a sense that you were trusted or
1 less than trusted by General Strugar? What was your perception?
2 A. Well, as a commander he had trust, but he was very often
3 dissatisfied with the general situation in terms of control and command,
4 in terms of the results we were getting, in terms of daily problems
5 throughout our units. Globally speaking, I think very often he was
6 unhappy. I am sure that he was facing his own problems with the TO back
7 in Podgorica. As concerns me specifically, I know of several examples
8 where he was --
9 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
10 A. -- when he was unhappy about the blockade from the sea, from where
11 the sea was, because we did not have sufficient ships. We only had the
12 two patrol boats patrolling the local line, so occasionally it would
13 happen that Croatian boats at night would enter the town with arms,
14 smuggled arms, on board. There were cases where the blockade had been
15 broken through. He intervened, and he insisted that the blockade be
16 preserved. He was absolutely right in requesting this.
17 There were cases of indiscipline, of people getting wounded, of
18 acts of provocation, and he always made his displeasure clear in these
19 cases. There were several cases where people were wounded and killed at
20 Bosanka, but I -- I expect that we shall deal with this later.
21 Q. Admiral, do you know how General Strugar perceived you? Were you
22 viewed as a tough commander? Were you -- what was -- if you know, what
23 was the perception of you?
24 A. I don't know. I can't say. I can give you one example. We were
25 at the command post. I had what was perhaps a bit of a sharp dialogue, a
1 conversation with General Perisic, and he said he believed that
2 General Perisic was right in that case and said he believed that
3 General Perisic was the best commander he ever had. I was a bit
4 crestfallen over that. I was disappointed by his position, because I
5 believe that I, in fact, was right.
6 Q. Admiral, moving on, ask you about an incident involving the Budva
7 Territorial Defence unit and a disciplinary issue over that. Do you
8 recall such an incident where you took measures?
9 A. Yes. This was about the Budva territorial company. It was a weak
10 unit with poor discipline. They failed to carry out my orders, and once
11 during an inspection I found several of them in some villages in Zupa.
12 They were looting and trying to get away in a vehicle. I called their
13 commander and ordered that they should leave the front line together with
14 the whole unit. There had been several interventions that were made. I
15 failed to give way, and the whole unit went back to Budva.
16 Q. Did you send them back to Budva?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. And did you retain the unit or did you disband the unit?
19 A. No. I was not the one who set up those territorial companies.
20 Back then, we had a coordination body, a body that was in charge of
21 coordination. Djurickovic, who was the Chief of Staff of the Territorial
22 Defence staff of Montenegro, he was the coordinator for the territorial
23 companies. He carried out coordination between those companies in the
24 command of the 9th sector. We were unable to do that since those
25 companies were quite many. Therefore, he was the one who set up those
1 units, who mobilised those units and it was down to him really. He was
2 the person in charge. I merely used those units pursuant to a joint plan
3 that we agreed. There was a plan to use those units.
4 Q. At the time of your dealing with the disciplinary problem of the
5 Budva territorial company, was it in the course of battle, and if so, what
6 did you do?
7 A. No. This was outside of battle. That was during a lull in the
9 Q. The -- an incident, if you recall, in an area called Cibaca in
10 late 1991. Do you recall an incident involving indiscipline by soldiers?
11 A. Yes. According to a plan that we had, we were supposed to send a
12 unit on leave, as we said, after 45 days of continuous operations. Units
13 in part or in whole would be sent on leave. They would be allowed to go
14 back home. But I was not able to discipline that particular unit. I was
15 not able to prevent them from using arms. So at first we tried to take
16 the arms away from them. This was difficult to carry out, however, and it
17 proved impossible eventually. I called General Strugar. I informed him I
18 was unable to do that and I asked for his assistance. This was a unit of
19 Montenegrins, and they were friendlier with a commander who was a
20 Montenegrin himself. I didn't even speak their dialects. I asked him to
21 speak to them. He accepted --
22 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
23 A. -- he came there and the two of us together.
24 Q. Who is -- when you say "him" --
25 A. General Strugar.
1 Q. Thank you?
2 A. I had the unit lined up with its commander and all the people who
3 were there. The boss was there, too. He addressed them, he gave a speech
4 the kind of speech that a commander would only be expected to give. He
5 appealed to them to preserve discipline, to keep up a good level of
6 discipline. He allowed them to keep their arms. They appealed to him to
7 keep their arms and so that they wouldn't use it. Reluctantly he agreed
8 to this. However, as soon as they boarded the buses the shooting began
9 through the windows of the bus.
10 Q. In your presence?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. And --
13 A. As soon as they turned the bend.
14 Q. And in the presence of General Strugar as well?
15 A. Yes. Yes. It was at a distance of about 500 metres from where we
16 were standing.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
18 A. This bus that the shooting came from.
19 Q. These units were subordinate to General Strugar?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. Yes the Territorial Defence units.
23 Q. What did General Strugar do about it? What measures did he take
24 at that time?
25 A. He didn't take any measures. He could not take any measures,
1 because he had so many major problems he was facing at the time, this was
2 just one of many problems that we faced.
3 Q. What kind of firearms were they using? What kind of arms, excuse
4 me, were involved in this incident of indiscipline?
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by apology I object to
6 the way that my learned friend and colleague is examining this witness.
7 The admiral is answering questions that are asked. He wishes to provide
8 an explanation of what he says, however, my colleague interrupts him with
9 no obvious need and would not even allow him to finish his sentence. This
10 is later on reflected in an illogical and inconsistent transcript. If a
11 question is asked, can we please allow the admiral to please finish
13 JUDGE PARKER: If you could just carry on.
14 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. When the question is
15 answered, I just try to move on. Thank you.
16 Q. Admiral, my question to you was: What kind of arms were involved
17 in this incident of indiscipline?
18 A. Usual infantry weapons, automatic weapons.
19 Q. To your knowledge --
20 A. Automatic rifles.
21 Q. To your knowledge were any measures taken even at any time after
22 the incident against these acts of indiscipline?
23 A. You mean in relation to this specific incident or generally?
24 Q. Yes, sir, in relation to this specific incident.
25 A. As I said, there were a number of problems, major problems,
1 continuing problems. We were simply overwhelmed by all these
2 developments. This was a great blow to the authority of General Strugar.
3 He was the most senior officer there, and this very much affected his
4 military dignity and pride.
5 Let me try to explain this. With Montenegrins it's very difficult
6 to take weapons away from them and send them home without their weapons.
7 Q. I very much appreciate your explanation. I think you've answered
8 your question. Thank you very much.
9 The various organs within which discipline is dealt in the
10 military would include what particular bodies? If you can give a very
11 brief overview.
12 A. In terms of disciplinary infringements, the commanders, the unit
13 commanders, would have been responsible, would have been in charge of
14 that, each in terms of their respective rank and position. That's as far
15 as infringements and violations are concerned. Major violations, there
16 are always military courts. And as for criminal acts there are civilian
17 courts. However there were major problems in the way all these
18 institutions functioned.
19 Q. I would ask you to turn your attention to tab 11 of your binders,
21 Admiral Jokic, before you is a document from the office of the
22 military prosecutor, and it refers to the military court in Sarajevo
23 violation or an indictment, rather, against an individual named
24 Veselin Simovic, a reserve soldier who was, as it goes through, accused of
25 killing civilians -- right, civilians in Kijev Do in Trebinje municipality
1 on or about 13 November, 1991. He was a member of the 2nd Operational
3 Are you aware of how many or -- are you aware of the number of
4 indictments such as this one which may have been issued during the time
5 period where you were in the Dubrovnik theatre?
6 A. Well, at least as I could see for myself by looking at the records
7 of the military court in Podgorica or, rather, in Tivat, there were about
8 68 indictments for crimes, and there were over 150 criminal reports for
9 robbery mostly. However, looking at the Sarajevo
10 about that. This was the biggest military court that we had, and it had
11 jurisdiction over the territory in which the operation around Dubrovnik
12 was taking place.
13 Q. Did you undertake an inquiry as to investigations or prosecutions
14 in connection with any particular preparation? Did you undertake -- did
15 you look into the number of criminal prosecutions or cases that had been
16 brought for any particular reason?
17 A. By all means. I was in part familiar with all of that, but I do
18 have to say that at the beginning, in the period under discussion here,
19 October, November, and December, this court, this military court in Tivat
20 had only been set up, and we were just beginning to create the conditions
21 for its work. Therefore, the proper functioning of this court began as
22 late as December and perhaps as late as 1992, and that's when the cases
23 began to be prosecuted. Most of those cases were in relation to looting
24 and arson. There were several cases of people wounding each other through
25 the use of weapons. However, looting and arson accounted for most of the
2 Q. Did any of the cases you looked at deal with shelling for October,
3 November, or December of 1991? Death, injury, or damage from shelling,
4 death to civilians or civilian injury, or damage to civilian objects?
5 A. No, we didn't have any of those.
6 Q. I would like to -- I'd ask you to --
7 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I would ask to move this
8 document into evidence.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P111.
11 MS. SOMERS:
12 Q. If you would next please have a look at tab 12 of your binders.
13 Admiral, in front of you is a document dated 22nd of December,
14 1991, bearing an endorsement underneath from Colonel -- Colonel-General
15 Pavle Strugar, and it is issued -- excuse me. It concerns dealing with
16 materials referred to as war booty or confiscated materials. Does -- if I
17 can ask you, please, to look through the document. What -- what
18 is -- what prohibitions are brought about, and in particular, in paragraph
19 5, what types of measures are to be taken against persons who violate the
20 particular subject matter of this order?
21 A. This is an order by the command of the 2nd Operational Group dated
22 the 22nd of December. This order was based on an instruction by the
23 Federal Secretary of National Defence. It is about the use of materiel
24 and equipment in the zone of operations. This order is for the organ for
25 civilian administration, and it tasks this specific body with a -- with
1 the management and use of this material and equipment, and the commands of
2 the 9th sector of the 2nd Corps and the republican staff of the
3 Montenegrin Territorial Defence are ordered to cooperate with this
4 civilian administration, but the commands of these units do not have any
5 right to misappropriate this materiel and equipment and hand it over to
6 anyone else. As for those that had been taken over before should be
7 handed over to the assembly centres by no later than the 15th of January,
9 Q. "And if members of the armed forces and citizens who have
10 unlawfully appropriated materials -- material supplies of any kind," I'm
11 reading from paragraph 5, Admiral, "particularly weapons and ammunition
12 are to be invited in an appropriate and adequate manner to return them and
13 submit them to the assembly centre no later than the 15th of January,
14 1992, and in this case no criminal proceedings will be instituted against
15 the persons who return the material supplies."
16 Is it your understanding, Admiral, that if they do not return it
17 then criminal proceedings will be instituted?
18 A. Yes, precisely.
19 Q. Thank you, Admiral.
20 MS. SOMERS: I would ask to move this document into evidence,
22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P112.
24 MS. SOMERS: If you please turn your attention to tab 13 in your
1 Q. Admiral, do you recognise this document?
2 A. Yes. This is a document of my command dated the 22nd of January,
3 1992, and it bears my signature.
4 Q. And is this document in some way related to the document we just
6 A. Yes. This document is actually an elaboration of the previous
7 order of the commander of the Operative Group, and it has to do with the
8 Vinogradi collection centre which was in my zone. It also has to do how
9 material supplies should be treated within Vinogradi in accordance with
10 the previous orders. That is to say, that things are spelled out in more
11 specific terms and in greater detail.
12 Q. When you say in accordance with the previous order, are you
13 referring to the order of the 2nd Operational Group?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Admiral, from these two documents, would you -- are you able to
16 indicate or to confirm that misappropriation of war booty was considered a
17 serious offence meriting criminal prosecution?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. SOMERS: I would ask to move this document into evidence.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That is -- that will be Prosecution Exhibit P113.
22 MS. SOMERS:
23 Q. Admiral, was there a military police unit in the 2nd Operational
24 Group to facilitate or deal with disciplinary measures?
25 A. The 2nd Operational Group did not have any military police. As
1 far as I know, they only had a reinforced platoon of military police to
2 provide security for the command post and to provide security for various
3 facilities but primarily for its own command. It's only corps and
4 commands that had military police and probably the republican staff of the
5 TO but in Podgorica.
6 Q. Given the -- well, what type of numbers were in this platoon? Can
7 you give numbers of military police to handle the matters in the
8 2nd Operational Group?
9 A. Well, I don't think they had more than 30 to 40 military
10 policemen, and it was only for meeting their own needs of their command
12 Q. Given the indiscipline that you have described in the
13 2nd Operational Group, were you of the view that there were sufficient
14 military police to deal with those issues?
15 A. No. That was the greatest problem, the most pressing problem of
16 all units. That's the way I felt it was. Had I had a battalion or,
17 rather, had I had a regiment of the military police, even that would have
18 been insufficient.
19 Q. Who could have requested more military police units in the 2OG?
20 A. Well, I think that all subordinate commands tried to resolve that
21 by putting forth a request for additional mobilisation or military police
22 reinforcements that would come from another army. However, this quite
23 simply did not happen. We never succeeded in achieving that.
24 Then I turned company Bar, a Territorial Defence unit, into a
25 military police company, and with a bit of training and having given them
1 police uniforms, we gave them police tasks.
2 Q. Who in the 2nd Operational Group had the authority, at the highest
3 level, who had the authority to seek more military police in circumstances
4 which you indicate merited having more police?
5 A. Well, the commander of the 2nd Operative Group.
6 Q. And that would have been?
7 A. General Pavle Strugar.
8 Q. Within the 2nd Operational Group, can you discuss, please,
9 General Strugar's capacity to remove and replace unit commanders in the
10 interests of maintaining discipline?
11 A. Well, according to the law, the commander of the Second Operational
12 Group was a commander at army level. He could have suspended or replaced a
13 subordinate commander, anybody. That's the kind of authority he had. Any
14 subordinate person he had. He had the right to replace anyone in any
15 superior -- subordinate unit or command. Of course, provided that he
16 reported to his superior command, that is to say the chief of
17 General Staff. If it had to do with higher-ranking officers, that is.
18 Q. Did General Strugar, as the commander of the 2nd Operational
19 Group, exercise this authority to remove where necessary?
20 A. I think he did involving a few examples, but I'm not sure. I
21 heard that as for the commander of a battalion of the Trebinje Brigade,
22 I'm not sure what this was for, and I don't know whether it was for a
23 longer period of time or a shorter period of time, but I think the answer
24 is yes. I don't know of any examples, though. I think it was the
25 commander of the 2nd Battalion or the 1st Battalion of the
1 Trebinje Brigade.
2 Q. Do you know whether or not General Strugar removed any officers
3 from the 3rd Battalion of the 472nd or Trebinje Brigade?
4 A. While I was at my command post, no. I do not have any such
6 Q. I would ask you to turn your attention, please, to tab 14.
7 MS. SOMERS: It is, Your Honours, just to remind you, it is
8 already admitted as P45, but it is in your binders.
9 Q. Admiral, this is a document issued by -- this is a
10 document - excuse me - issued by the General Staff of the SFRY,
11 Lieutenant Blagoje Adzic, and it concerns -- it is dated 29 September
12 1991. It concerns reporting, transmission of information. Are you
13 familiar with the content of this document?
14 A. Yes, I am.
15 Q. Looking to the first paragraph, if perhaps you might be able to
16 assist with some of the abbreviations where it says "commands of VO, RV."
17 If you would be so good enough to read that first paragraph so that we
18 understood the -- translate the abbreviations.
19 If you could read it out loud, Admiral.
20 A. Yes.
21 "Number 1, commands of military districts and the air force and
22 the anti-aircraft defence are to submit regular combat reports. Reports
23 are to be submitted on the basis of regular combat reports of the brigades
24 and the corps from three levels down (brigade-regiment, independent
25 battalion-division) for all units and detached formations."
1 And then attachment 40 is explained, these tables according to
2 which the report is being submitted. It says: "Regular combat reports
3 are to be submitted in line with the attachment of the instructions of the
4 work of the commands, attachment number 40, besides the regular combat
5 reports submit extraordinary reports." That is the point.
6 Q. And, Admiral, it does address the daily submission of reports by
7 2100 hours, and the compilation or compiling of combat documents in line
8 with instructions.
9 Can you tell us, please, what did this mean for the
10 2nd Operational Group? How did this translate into reporting for the
11 2nd Operational Group?
12 A. Well, or subordinate commands of the 2nd Operational Group submit
13 to the 2nd Operational Group its combat reports for its units. The
14 independent battalion was the lowest-ranking unit within the command for
15 which information is provided. That is to say everything that is of
16 relevance to the unit had to be reported. The operations team, the duty
17 team in the staff of the 2nd Operational Group collected these reports
18 from all the units involved and they compiled their own collective report
19 and sent it to the General Staff. That was it, briefly. To the first
20 administration of the General Staff, that is.
21 Q. Do you view this then as an indication of, in this instance in the
22 2nd Operational Group, General Strugar's responsibility as the commander
23 of the Operational Group to keep an efficient flow of information to the
24 highest levels of command as well as from the subordinate levels?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Based on what you have just answered, would that also
2 follow upon inquiry or information about disciplinary matters in
3 subordinate units of the 2nd Operational Group that that information would
4 flow back to General Strugar?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I would ask you, please, to turn to tab -- excuse me.
7 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I just want to check if I've
8 omitted anything.
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 MS. SOMERS:
11 Q. Pursuant to your answer about responsibility with indiscipline and
12 the responsibility to act on information coming up, on -- in early
13 November, I believe you may have said the 2nd of November, you had
14 proposed to General Strugar to withdraw the 472nd Brigade because of
15 indiscipline. You indicated that he did not execute your proposal in its
16 entirety and that the 3rd Battalion was left behind. Now, does that
17 conform with acting on the information flow as is described in this order?
20 Q. Briefly.
21 At the meeting of the 2nd of November, on the basis of
22 requests in terms of how future grouping and use of combat forces should
23 be applied, I suggested that the entire brigade be taken out because it
24 was unnecessary to have a big unit there on the outskirts of Dubrovnik
25 creating problems. Not only because of a lack of discipline. Quite
1 simply, it was not needed. There was no military necessity for it to be
2 there. And General Strugar needed that kind of a unit in the valley of
3 the Neretva River
4 entire brigade on the 2nd of November. That's the only thing I wish to add.
5 Q. Thank you for your clarification, Admiral. Turning to tab 15,
7 Admiral Jokic, this is a directive issued again from
8 Colonel-General Blagoje Adzic dated the 12th of October, and it deals with
9 a number of issues, but in particular I want to turn your attention to the
10 last paragraph of the document. First of all, are you familiar, have you
11 made yourself at any time familiar with the content of this document?
12 A. I'm not sure whether I saw the integral document, the document in
13 its entirety, but it is certain that part of this document was given to
14 the lower commands. Maybe the whole document was read out, but I'd have
15 to read through the whole document. By way of information, I am familiar
16 with all of this. It all looks familiar.
17 Q. And let me please turn your attention to the last paragraph which
18 states: "All armed units, be they JNA, TO, or volunteer units must act
19 under the single command of the JNA. They should behave and act according
20 to the rules that apply in the army, showing full respect for military
21 discipline, hierarchy, military laws and regulations in all circumstances
22 of life, work, and combat activities. These positions should immediately
23 be communicated to the JNA officers and subsequently in the most suitable
24 manner to soldiers and civilians. This should be illustrated by the most
25 important experience of one's own unit in the past and an outline of the
1 immediate and forthcoming tasks."
2 Does that reflect, Admiral, the importance of General Adzic's
3 order of a single and uniform command within the JNA. Singular - I'm
4 corrected by my colleague - singular and unified command in the JNA.
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 MS. SOMERS: I would ask to move to this document into evidence,
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P114.
10 MS. SOMERS:
11 Q. As a general proposition, Admiral, in the context of singular and
12 unified command, what in your view are the possibilities of a battalion
13 commander initiating combat activity without authority from the relevant
15 A. Well, that could not happen in any combat variant in accordance
16 with our military hierarchy and in accordance with the rules of combat use
17 of our units, I mean the JNA.
18 Q. Were you aware, Admiral Jokic, of any politicians in the region
19 where the Dubrovnik operation was being carried out who either interfered,
20 influenced, or worked closely with the 2nd Operational Command?
21 A. Well, I can only know about the mayor of Trebinje, Mr. Vucurevic,
22 Bozidar Vucurevic. There were probably other politicians there, but I did
23 not go very often, so I don't know. He was there often, though, and he
24 was present in the media, in the newspapers, on television all the time.
25 That's how I know.
1 Q. Admiral, when I phrased my question to you I used erroneously the
2 phrase 2nd Operational Command. I would correct that to read
3 2nd Operational Group.
4 Mr. Vucurevic was a mayor, did you indicate, a mayor?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was he affiliated with any political party, if you know?
7 A. I think he was a member of the SDS, the Serb Democratic Party.
8 Q. Are you aware of any views that Mr. Vucurevic held concerning
10 A. He had radical views in terms of his attitude towards Dubrovnik
11 and resolving the crisis concerning Dubrovnik
12 Dubrovnik would not accept any demands, the problem would have to be
13 resolved by force. I know that he also had negotiations before. I found
14 this in documents, but it was also carried by the press. He negotiated
15 with the mayor of Dubrovnik, but the announcements he made on radio and TV
16 were well known, that the war against Croats had to be won, and his
17 slogans were very vehement ones and very nationalistic. This influenced
18 junior officers and soldiers.
19 Q. Junior officers and soldiers where, Admiral?
20 A. Well, in the area of Trebinje. I mean the Dubrovnik
21 zone, but specifically, of course, it had to do with Trebinje for the most
22 part. That is where most of the army was concentrated, those troops that
23 took part in the operations that is.
24 Q. And those persons would be part of the 2nd Operational Group?
25 A. Yes. He was the closest to Kovacevic and Komar who was Chief of
1 Staff of the 472nd Brigade, and he was actually friends with them.
2 Probably with others too, but I know about these two.
3 Q. When you say close to Kovacevic, which Kovacevic are you referring
5 A. I mean the commander of the 3rd Battalion of the Trebinje Brigade.
6 Q. You mentioned Komar and Kovacevic. What ethnicity are Komar and
8 A. They are Montenegrins from Niksic.
9 Q. Did you know whether or not Mr. Vucurevic was close with
10 General Strugar?
11 A. I cannot say that. I don't think so. But since he is a very
12 forceful personality and he thought that as a politician he should
13 exercise influence over the military too. He would very often come to the
14 command of the 2nd Operational Group, and he often spend time with the
15 officers and soldiers of the command of the 2nd Operational Group
16 including General Strugar, but I don't think that he could directly
17 influence the reaching of decisions, but indirectly he probably had some
19 Q. Was it a usual procedure to frequent the headquarters of the armed
20 forces, for civilians to frequent the headquarters of the armed forces?
21 A. Well, civilians, as far as war is concerned or, rather, a command
22 that is at war, there is a special procedure involved. However, this was
23 the president of a municipality, who beforehand was president of the Serb
24 autonomous province of Herzegovina
25 the municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was a prominent personality,
1 a prominent figure, a man who always wore camouflage uniform with the
2 insignia of a major as if he were involved in a war, as if he were waging
3 war. So the rules that others were bound by did not apply to him.
4 Q. Can you tell us, if you know, what was Mr. Vucurevic's attitude
5 toward the continued existence of Dubrovnik
6 A. Well, I believe his position was that Dubrovnik
7 autonomy, whether as part of Croatia or outside Croatia, I don't know.
8 I'm not familiar with the details. But I assume that he wanted to have
9 Dubrovnik as a town, since together with -- since it had economic links
10 with Trebinje and the hinterland, he wanted some form of autonomy for
11 Dubrovnik, I assume. This is the nebulous idea of some form of autonomy
12 for Dubrovnik as a republic. I think he was in favour of that.
13 MS. SOMERS: I ask you to turn to tab 38 in your binders.
14 Q. Admiral, before you is a letter from Bozidar Vucurevic addressed
15 to -- first of all, dated 7 November 1991
16 headquarters in Belgrade to the military naval command of the
17 Boka Kotorska region, to the 2nd Operative or Operational Group command in
18 Trebinje and to the SFRY Presidency in Belgrade
19 Would you tell us, please, what this letter says and what impact
20 you perceive it to have been meant to have on the operations in the
21 Dubrovnik area?
22 A. This letter is a classic example of his interference with control
23 and command and the way the units were being used. This is a letter that
24 he addressed to the Presidency and to the Chief of the General Staff. He
25 claims that the Croats were targeting our units from the Old Town and from
1 the front end, killing our soldiers. He requests an energetic showdown,
2 as he says, with the Croatian troops. In this letter, he ask that more
3 energetic reserve officers take over the command, as that the JNA was not
4 energetic enough in the way it waged its war, not forceful enough. He
5 even finishes off by saying that something should be changed. He refers
6 to the people who will probably one day judge those who are not doing
7 as -- what they should be doing, in his opinion.
8 Q. Did this type of letter, perhaps even this letter, and the, as you
9 call it, classical example of interference with control and command have
10 an impact on activities or decisions made or revisited in the Dubrovnik
11 theatre by the 2nd Operational Group?
12 A. Yes. I think that this was an influential thing. I read the
13 report. I considered it totally unnecessary. I -- I didn't pay attention
14 to it on the day when I read the letter. I thought it was just something
15 very silly. I was, however, mistaken because as early as the 10th with
16 the soldiers in Trebinje, my command had been blocked, laid siege to by
17 the reserve officer and calls were made for my resignation the because of
18 the lack of energy I displayed in the way I waged war on Croatia
19 reservists requested that the commander be removed. Therefore, this
20 certainly deserved serious consideration. The negative effect that he had
21 on the morale and on the command. That's as far as his negative influence
22 is concerned.
23 I believe that as far as lower-ranking officers were concerned,
24 Captain Kovacevic and Major Komar, this had very negative influence.
25 Q. I'd like to turn your attention now to an area -- excuse me. Yes.
1 MS. SOMERS: I request that this document be submitted into
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P115.
5 MS. SOMERS:
6 Q. Looking now at the Croatian forces, are you able to give an
7 assessment of the strength of the Croatian forces defending Dubrovnik
8 during the period of 8 October through 6 December 1991
9 can you compare them with the forces of the JNA both in terms of numbers
10 and heavy weaponry? Numbers of troops and heavy weaponry.
11 A. As for the strength of Croatian paramilitary units, all I can say
12 is that after I arrived at the front on the 8th of October, based on all
13 the intelligence reports and military evaluations that I had, it was our
14 assessment at my command that at the beginning while the operation and the
15 valley of Konavle was under way on the approach road to Dubrovnik
16 were between 1.500 and 2.000 such troops, rather, paramilitary units,
17 soldiers. Later when all those elements had withdrawn to Dubrovnik from
18 the surroundings when the town was blocked both from sea and land, above
19 all from land, on the 1st it was also blocked from the sea, we believe
20 that in the town itself following mobilisation and, after all, the groups
21 of the national -- all the groups of the National Guard and the volunteers
22 and the police troops as well as the national defence, that's what they
23 called it, had been assembled, our assessment was that there were between
24 2.500 and 3.000 soldiers there.
25 They broke through the siege, and they managed to
1 infiltrate a company from the Ston and Metkovic areas into the town. As
2 for their weapons, they had simple automatic weapons, a lot of infantry
3 ammunition, unlimited quantities, I should say.
4 As for the artillery, mostly they had weaker weapons. They had
5 82-millimetre mortars. They had between 10 and 20 of those.
6 120-millimetre mortars, we believe between six and ten pieces. We had
7 seized four of those of German make along an approach road to Dubrovnik
8 They had brought four cannon in from Korcula and four more from Sipan and
9 had those deployed all over Dubrovnik. They had the 20-millimetre two and
10 three barrels, between 10 and 20 pieces. They had rockets. They had the
11 Maljutkas. At the beginning they had several launchers, and they had the
12 Armbrust that they had managed to smuggle into the city. These are German
13 anti-armour rockets.
14 They had two vehicles, one armoured vehicle that they built
15 themselves and another one they somehow fangled together later.
16 As for the ratios in relation to our forces, it's very difficult
17 to provide accurate figures, but are we talking about all units or only
18 about the units in the Dubrovnik zone?
19 Q. In terms of -- just the Dubrovnik
20 A. In the Dubrovnik area, if you put all the units together, I think
21 the result would be between ten and 12.000 in the period where, for
22 example, if you take the beginning of November, the 472nd Brigade was in
23 the blockade together with the battalions and the Territorial Defence. I
24 think there were about 12.000. That was the maximum number, which then
25 dropped to about 3 or 4.000. That's after the entire brigade had pulled
1 out with the exception of the 3rd Battalion.
2 Q. Excuse me. Do I understand you correctly then, you're talking
3 about forces of the JNA in the 2nd Operational Group?
4 A. No, only in the Dubrovnik area. As for the 2nd Operational Group,
5 if you look at that --
6 Q. I'm sorry, no. Restrict it to Dubrovnik
7 the JNA forces?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you, Admiral.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, Ms. Somers?
11 MS. SOMERS: If I could just have one more question along this
12 line I think it would be helpful.
13 Q. Given the numbers you have shown and what you've described, I
14 believe, as weaker weaponry, did the Croatian forces represent a real
15 threat to the JNA?
16 A. In terms of assessing their combat strength in relation to our
17 forces, we cannot really say that they posed a realistic threat, that they
18 could stop our attack, that they could defeat us or inflict heavy losses
19 on us, certainly not. But in terms of the way they used their resources,
20 they could inflict losses on us by acts of provocation, by ambush, and
21 especially following cease-fires when those acts of provocation were
22 carried out, they would attack us and then they would run. The JNA unit
23 would then strike back and would be blamed for that, and then they would
24 react vehemently to that. So that was the kind of system they used.
25 Q. Was General Strugar aware of the discrepancy in the strength of
1 the two forces, in other words, the forces of the Croatian side and the
2 forces, his forces, General Strugar's forces in the Dubrovnik
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. SOMERS: This would be a convenient time. Thank you very
6 JUDGE PARKER: We will have now a 20-minute break.
7 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Somers.
10 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
11 Q. Admiral Jokic, according to information which you may have had
12 while participating in operations around the Dubrovnik
13 any heavy weapons positions, military installations, or other military
14 activity in the Old Town during the period 7 or 8 October to the end of
15 December 1991?
16 A. We suspected especially our lower-ranking officers who were active
17 around Dubrovnik along the approach roads that even in the Old Town there
18 were armed elements that were active as well as some weapons. There was a
19 permanent suspicion with regard to some bits of information that were
20 attained from refugees, but that was no reliable source of information.
21 It was ascertained, however, that there was firing from the town walls and
22 the towers surrounding the Old Town. There was also a vehicle with a
23 weapon mounted on it that occasionally fired from the Old Town. It was
24 moving about in order to avoid being located.
25 Along the approach to the walls itself, there were between four
1 and five 82-millimetre mortars positioned and one 120-millimetre weapon.
2 Later on, there were fewer and fewer of those, especially once we had come
3 very close to the town. There was only that vehicle that I referred to
4 firing from the Old Town itself.
5 Q. Did you learn of the vehicle from first-hand knowledge or from
6 some source after, well after, the incident? After the time of the
7 indictment, rather.
8 A. I had reliable information on the basis of a testimony by
9 Colonel Marinovic who was the commander of the town's defence. However,
10 our sources kept reporting that there were weapons showing up every now
11 and then, weapons that were being used.
12 Q. When you -- I'm sorry, but when you say "testimony by
13 Colonel Marinovic," what are you referring to?
14 A. I mean his testimony, the map that he had on which he drew or
15 marked the positions of their guns in Dubrovnik
16 Old Town
17 Q. In which case are you referring or to which are you referring,
18 Admiral, when you say "testimony"?
19 A. I'm referring to the first indictment that we had in this case.
20 Q. Are you aware or are you able to give the, if any, locations of
21 the 82-millimetre mortars and the 120-millimetre weapon you referred to?
22 Particularly the ones you said close to Old Town, to the town.
23 A. It was established that throughout the duration of the Dubrovnik
24 operation there were four 82-millimetre mortars in the Bogisic park, which
25 is only 300 metres away from the Pile town gate, and the 120-millimetre
1 mortar was located in the park near the old hospital at about 250 or 300
2 metres from the walls of the Old Town.
3 This vehicle shuttled between the two gates via the main street,
4 the Stradun, and sometimes they would fire a volley or two.
5 Q. Were you aware at the time of the UNESCO-protected status of the
6 Old Town
7 A. Absolutely.
8 Q. Was it known to the troops in the region as well that Dubrovnik
9 the Old Town
10 A. Absolutely. You could see UNESCO flags clearly displayed on the
11 walls and turrets.
12 Q. Excuse me just a second. Just taking you back for a moment when
13 you said that the vehicle shuttled between the two gates via the main
14 street, the Stradun, did you know this firsthand or did you hear it from
15 some other source?
16 A. We knew this for sure. We learned this for sure later on, but
17 even during the operations we had information reports that this vehicle
18 was moving up and down the Stradun. And you could see this from an
19 elevation named Zarkovica, which is just above the Old Town.
20 Q. So you're indicating that from Zarkovica you could see things on
21 the Stradun?
22 A. Absolutely.
23 Q. Is there an unobstructed view from Zarkovica to the Old Town of
25 A. Yes. You could see the Old Town very clearly indeed. The
1 elevation was between 250 and 350 metres high, and the distance between
2 the elevation and the Old Town was between 2 and 3 kilometres.
3 Q. Having acknowledged that the Old Town was an UNESCO-protected
4 location, did you ever consider the Old Town as a permissible military
6 A. No. We knew that it could never be a military target.
7 Q. Were you aware that civilians were present in the Old Town either
8 living and/or working there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I would like to turn your attention now to tab 16, please.
11 Admiral, can you comment, please. You indicated -- before you proceed,
12 you indicated that you were aware or that the Old Town was never a
13 military target. Was this communicated to all troops in the Dubrovnik
14 area as well?
15 A. Yes. All the units were duly informed down to the lowest-ranking
17 Q. Thank you, Admiral. Looking at a document which is issued. It is
18 an order from the Chief of the General Staff of the OS of the armed forces
19 of the SFRY. It is dated 14 October 1991
20 content of this order, Admiral?
21 A. Yes, fully.
22 Q. And looking into the body of the order under the words where it
23 says "Order," particularly at paragraph 3, I turn your attention to the
24 language: "Any attack on cultural property and other protected buildings
25 (churches, historical monuments, medical institutions and suchlike) is
1 strictly forbidden except where units of the JNA come under fire from such
2 buildings. In such cases, the responsible officer shall, prior to opening
3 fire and in a suitable manner, warn the opposite side to cease firing and
4 leave the building."
5 Further in paragraph 4 -- actually, if you continue after that it
6 discusses a policy of reporting and documentation and that: "The military
7 judicial organs should have every violation of the rules of international
8 humanitarian law in the units of operation reported." That is paragraph
9 4. It is further ordered in paragraph 5 to "circulate this order to all
10 officers and soldiers of the armed forces of the SFRY as well as to all
11 the members of other units engaging in combat in the area of -- areas of
12 JNA operations."
13 Was this order followed in the Dubrovnik
14 A. Well, there were certain aberrations in two specific cases that I
15 know, two serious incidents in November and December, between the 10th and
16 the 12th of November and on the 6th of December.
17 Q. We will get to those a bit later, Admiral. Thank you.
18 MS. SOMERS: I would ask to move this document into evidence,
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P116.
22 MS. SOMERS:
23 Q. I would ask you to please turn your attention to tab 17. This is
24 a document dated 7 November 1991, Admiral, and it is from -- it bears the
25 endorsement of an assistant commander for moral guidance and legal
1 affairs, a major General Vidak Vukovic of the 1st Military District, and I
2 want to call your attention to the theme of it which is a report on the
3 protection of cultural heritage monuments in Yugoslavia
4 In particular -- First of all, are you familiar generally with the
5 content of this directive?
6 A. Yes, I am. Maybe I did not receive this particular report, but
7 essentially I'm familiar with its content. This speaks about the 1954
8 Hague Convention and other details that were familiar to the command
10 Q. In the body of the document, Admiral, does it reflect the
11 protections that are to be afforded to cultural property in the event of
12 armed conflict?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In particular, if you turn to your attention to the second page,
15 which is a carryover from paragraph 2 where it refers to the convention
16 concerning the protection of the world cultural and natural heritage
17 adopted in - sorry - in 1972 and ratified by Yugoslavia
18 regulating issues of compiling the world heritage list to include property
19 and areas of global significance in the realm of cultural and natural
20 property to be preserved for future generations. Among UN members,
21 Yugoslavia belongs to the ranks of countries with a large number of places
22 and properties included in the world heritage list, and it cites as the
23 first example, A, the Old City of Dubrovnik.
24 At the bottom, just above the endorsement, above the name, the
25 direction is: "Make certain that the officers and soldiers know of this
1 situation report and the above order of the chief of the Main Staff of the
2 armed forces of the SFRY through the provision of information and direct
3 work in all units especially in the units engaged on the war fronts and in
4 all units sent to the war fronts."
5 You indicated, Admiral, that you were familiar with -- generally
6 the content of this document. Was there --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- an extra -- was there an extra effort made to impress and to
9 order the units in the Dubrovnik area under the command and control of the
10 2nd Operational Group to be mindful of the protected status of cultural
11 institutions, cultural heritage generally, and particularly the Old City
12 of Dubrovnik which was in their area of operation?
13 A. Yes. The units were informed about this. They were familiarised,
14 and this was obvious in the case of all the units that were near the town
15 of Dubrovnik itself.
16 MS. SOMERS: I ask to have the document admitted into evidence.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P117.
19 MS. SOMERS:
20 Q. Would you please turn your attention to tab 18. Do you recognise
21 this order, this combat order, Admiral Jokic?
22 A. Yes. This is a combat order produced by my command, dated the
23 11th of November 1991, and I signed this.
24 Q. And it is addressed to the 2nd Operational Group, information 9th
25 VPS, and it mentions in its first point that the 472nd Motorised Brigade
1 will continue in its attack in certain areas. It goes on with different
2 aspects of combat issues and -- and I turn your attention to paragraph 6
3 on the last page of the order. And would you please indicate what is in
4 your order concerning the Old Town of Dubrovnik.
5 A. Item 6 says that units are forbidden to open fire on the Old Town
6 except in case of lethal fire coming from the area on our units.
7 Q. Is the term "lethal fire" a term that is used as a -- sort of a
8 general term or a term that comes out of military rhetoric, military
10 A. Well, yes. If losses in our parts become unacceptable, if there
11 is lethal fire coming in, lethal fire is considered to be the fire that
12 inflicts heavy losses on an units. It was only in this case that they
13 were allowed to fire back. This was an exception that a commander would
14 have been authorised to apply in an extreme situation, in extremis, as the
15 expression goes, but not usually. This would be extremely risky for the
16 unit in question. It would be extremely risky for the unit in question
17 not to be successful in defending itself.
18 Q. Were any procedures put in place to deal or to respond to lethal
19 fire, for example, initially a warning?
20 A. Yes, we did have a situation like that. Actually, the first
21 situation on the 11th of November, on this very date, when a warning was
22 sent to the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff that civilians, citizens of Dubrovnik
23 should be removed from the weapons in town that were being used to fire in
24 order to reduce civilian casualties. This was the first and only warning
25 that I can think of, the first and only warning that we sent to the
1 opposite side.
2 Q. Can you think of any instances where lethal fire came from the Old
4 A. No. There were several situations where lower-ranking junior
5 commanders were reporting about suffering lethal fire from the town itself
6 but it was never ascertained that it was from the Old Town. The weapons
7 that this lethal fire was coming from was, as a rule, located outside the
8 Old Town
9 Q. Admiral, I note the date of this order, and can you indicate or
10 can you confirm that it was issued in the midst of an operation by units
11 under your command and control, and of course the command and control of
12 the 2nd Operational Group in the Dubrovnik
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was the underlying reason that you saw it necessary to issue
15 this order, particularly with respect to the protected area of Old Town
16 A. Well, this was meant to protect the Old Town so that it couldn't
17 be fired on except under extremely exceptional circumstances where there
18 was firing from the Old Town that was lethal for the unit. So this was
19 the essence. This was the fundamental meaning.
20 The first time we reached a situation like that was on this date
21 when my units were active, but up to that point we had no combat
22 operations in that direction, at least not as concerns my units. This was
23 merely a form of providing security for the units, for those units that
24 were operating in the immediate surroundings of the Old Town.
25 Q. When you say "at least not as concerns my units," you mean that
1 there may have been other combat operations under the 2nd Operational
2 Group, but not necessarily by units at the time subordinated to yourself?
3 A. Yes. Before this date, before I took over as the commander of the
4 Trebinje Brigade, there had been operations the whole time for 26 days
5 when my units were not in the area.
6 Q. By this order, Admiral, are you indicating your concern and
7 sensitivity to the need to protect the Old Town of Dubrovnik and the need
8 to be assured that units under your command and control do the same? In
9 combat operations, of course.
10 A. Yes. Yes, that's precisely what I had in mind.
11 MS. SOMERS: I would ask to move this document into evidence,
12 please, to have it admitted.
13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P118.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Before we move on from the document, I wonder,
16 Admiral, if you can clarify for me whether the --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE PARKER: -- order number 6 on the last page was directed to
19 forces of the 9th Naval Sector or to all forces, that is land forces as
20 well as naval under your command.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This order
22 pertained to all units under my command, primarily land forces, because in
23 this operation, the naval parts did not actually participate. But of
24 course before and after that, it had to do with them as well. There are
25 other orders pertaining to ships.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Secondly, this order appears to have
2 issued just before midnight on the 11th of November, 1991. Was there any
3 particular reason for the order being issued at the end of that day?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably. Your Honour, this
5 order was issued at 2000 hours. As a rule, orders are issued in the
6 evening for the following day. However, it was necessary to do it this
7 way, in this particular instance because the previously assigned tasks
8 were not carried out. So in order to speed up the operations for this
9 date, the 11th of November, things had to be handled this way. This has
10 to do with bringing in a unit, the 3rd Battalion, which was brought into
11 action for the first time, the 3rd Battalion of the Trebinje Brigade.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 MS. SOMERS:
14 Q. If you would please turn your attention to document -- I'm sorry,
15 to tab 19.
16 Admiral, before we address the document that I've just referred
17 to, I'd like to ask you as a follow-up to Judge Parker's question, you
18 said in order to speed up the operations for this date, the 11th of
19 November, things had to be handled in -- handled this way. This had to do
20 with bringing in a unit, the 3rd Battalion, which was brought into the
21 action for the first time.
22 Now, was there a particular concern, a safety concern for the Old
23 Town that you are -- that you are linking to the 3rd Battalion of the
24 Trebinje Brigade?
25 A. In the operations between the 8th and the 10th, when the mixed
1 detachment of the Territorial Defence participated, too, we had a weaker
2 unit which had sustained significant losses. I established it only in
3 order to prevent the use of strong artillery, because previously we did
4 not talk about these operations, actually. Before the 11th of November, a
5 unit of the Trebinje Brigade, the 4th battalion had a few provocative
6 actions that they took in that area vis-a-vis the Old Town or, rather,
7 against the hotels outside the Old Town. In order to prevent the
8 repetition of these provocations and the use of strong artillery that this
9 battalion did have, I suggested to the command of the 2nd Operational
10 Group to have this 4th battalion taken out and this mixed detachment of
11 the Territorial Defence was established in its place with weak artillery
12 which could not cause great damage and at a longer distance because the
13 range of their mortars was three kilometres. However, this unit suffered
14 losses. There was a halt in the operation itself, and then a decision was
15 passed in the 2nd Operational Group to bring in the 3rd Battalion of the
16 Trebinje Brigade, and of course the 3rd light brigade which was a unit
17 which was brought into the operations aimed at taking Komolac, which is
18 where the source of Rijeka Dubrovacka is.
19 Q. So the arrival, as I understand you and correct me if I'm wrong,
20 the arrival or the introduction of the 3rd Battalion of the 472nd Brigade
21 has some bearing on your issuing this order concerning the protection of
22 the Old Town
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You referred also to the 4th Battalion, and I think you said
25 provocative actions. In what month are you -- do you refer? To what
1 month do you refer about these provocative actions?
2 A. This was between the 2nd and 4th of November. That's when the
3 Crisis Staff of Dubrovnik protested. I wrote a statement to
4 Admiral Brovet, the deputy Federal Secretary for National Defence about
5 these provocations. Afterwards I suggested to have this battalion
6 withdrawn because with its artillery it could cause certain damage. That
7 was a possibility, but that was not our task.
8 Q. Not your task because it was not under your command and control at
9 the time?
10 A. Yes. I mean, what I wanted to say was that the 4th Battalion did
11 not have the task of combat action. On the 25th of October there was a
12 cease-fire, and this cease-fire went on all the way up to the 8th of
13 November officially. In that period of time, between the 2nd of November
14 and the 4th of November, there were these provocations. There was a lack
15 of discipline in that battalion, and sporadic gunfire occurred which did
16 not damage the Old Town, but there was the possibility of incurring
17 further damage in view of the artillery that they had.
18 The 2nd Operational Group had not ordered any action. There was a
19 lull then. There was a cease-fire.
20 Q. On the 2nd of November, however, the 4th Battalion was part of the
21 Trebinje Brigade which was at that time under your command and control?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, we're going back to the document at tab 19. The document is
24 dated 24 October 1991, and it is -- it bears the name commander
25 Major General Pavle Strugar. Are you familiar with this particular
1 document, Admiral, this order?
2 A. Yes. Yes, I did receive this order.
3 Q. Can you take a look, please, at paragraph 3, and I draw your
4 attention to: "Further to continue to improve the conditions of the
5 accommodation and reliable protection of the people focusing on creation
6 of the overall superiority over the enemy forces and their unconditional
7 surrender. Further to prevent any" -- sorry -- "further to prevent any
8 attacks on the old part of Dubrovnik."
9 Do you know the circumstances or the purpose behind this order of
10 General Strugar's?
11 A. The point of this order was the following: That was the first
12 time that the units of the 9th sector were linked up, my units and those
13 of the Trebinje Brigade, which was until then under the direct control of
14 the 2nd Operational Group. Now they needed to take actions together or,
15 rather, the brigade came under the command of the 9th sector. And he
16 calls upon me and the commander of the brigade to come to his command post
17 to prepare for further action.
18 Q. This was issued on the 24th of October, 1991
19 time of combat operations in the 2nd Operational Group?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Admiral, just to assist us in looking at the Serbo-Croatian
22 version of the document, the one you have, under paragraph 2, I believe
23 there may be, and I want to draw the attention of Your Honours to it,
24 there may be a typographical error not corrected in the English where it
25 says: "The enemy was caused greater losses or bigger losses in manpower,"
1 et cetera, et cetera, and 9 VPS forces captured over -- it says 450,
2 but -- I'm sorry. Stricken to 45.
3 Is that correct, Admiral? What does it say in the Serbo-Croatian
4 version of your document is the numbers?
5 A. Yes this is number 45 and 150 is crossed out.
6 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honours, for your attention. And the
7 correction, I would request that it be made in English. I apologise for
8 it not having been caught earlier.
9 Q. I do turn your attention now, please, or I ask you to turn your
10 attention now to the very last line under "Support." It's a very last
11 line of the document above what would be the sit. It says A and then B:
12 "Artillery. For the further actions, strictly precise the aims in the
13 region of Dubrava and Strincera and north from that line. I strictly
14 forbid the attacks on Dubrovnik."
15 Does that refer to generally the Dubrovnik
16 A. Yes. At first all our orders included a ban on targeting the town
17 of Dubrovnik, and that ban prevailed throughout the operation for the most
18 part. However, when artillery pieces fired from Dubrovnik
19 Town, that is, and when this became heavy fire and when we incurred
20 losses, then orders were given to open artillery fire against those
21 targets in order to neutralise them. That is to say, outside the Old Town
22 in order to neutralize those positions from where the shooting came from.
23 And that is why there is repetition of this order strictly forbidding
24 attacks on Dubrovnik. But there was always an explicit ban on targeting
25 the Old Town
1 MS. SOMERS: I would ask that this document be admitted into
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P119.
5 MS. SOMERS:
6 Q. Admiral, can you indicate what measures, if any, were taken by the
7 command of the 2nd Operational Group to verify and control the
8 implementation of the orders concerning the protection of the Old Town
9 do you know?
10 A. There were a few measures at the level of the command of the
11 2nd Operational Group and at the level of my command. As for the
12 2nd Operational Group, I know that their chief of artillery often toured
13 artillery units, and he particularly approved firing positions of heavy
14 artillery, the so-called support artillery. Also, I think that there is a
15 particular document where the chief of artillery personally issued tasks
16 to the entire artillery of the 2nd Operational Group that was in action
17 throughout the Dubrovnik zone. This is not customary, but in that
18 document precise orders are given to divisions and to individual batteries
19 in terms of which targets they should engage.
20 Also, there was another measure that artillery observers for
21 support artillery and for artillery for immediate fire should be on
22 elevations from which targets could be viewed. What was forbidden was to
23 open fire at targets that could not be seen, so in such places fire could
24 not be corrected.
25 Those were the three most important measures that are referred to
1 in documents.
2 Q. We will now go to tab 20 involving a look at a map. I'm hopeful
3 that we can use the ELMO as much as possible, and if that becomes
4 difficult, I would ask that we use the map board.
5 Before -- while the usher is putting up that or giving you the
6 document to look at, I have a question of you. Considering that there was
7 no necessity for heavy weapons close to the city, why were the weapons
8 left so close? Was that not considered risky?
9 A. Yes. That is the way it can be put, absolutely. However, certain
10 restrictions were imposed too. I said a short while ago that as far as
11 heavy artillery is concerned, this support artillery, their firing
12 positions were at distances from which firing positions could be targeted
13 in Dubrovnik. They covered the entirety of Dubrovnik. However, there was
14 also control, but it did not prove to be effective as was seen later.
15 The chief of artillery toured these positions and these artillery
17 Q. Would it not, Admiral, have been prudent to have withdrawn the
18 weapons given these concerns?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You have in front of you, Admiral, a map. I just will get my
22 Do you recognise this map, Admiral Jokic?
23 A. Yes, I do recognise it, but these are units of the 2nd Corps.
24 These are not my units. What I see on the monitor that is.
25 Q. Admiral, we're looking -- perhaps the usher may have placed it
1 not -- if it is too difficult, then it may be easier, Admiral, to have it
2 on the board, but I'd ask you first to look at the title of the map at the
3 very top of it if you can, the title that is written on the map.
4 A. Yes. This is the working map of the command of the
5 2nd Operational Group.
6 Q. Is this a headquarters map, Admiral?
7 A. Yes. It is a working map of the headquarters of the
8 2nd Operational Group.
9 Q. And covering what period, Admiral Jokic, if you can tell us, if
10 it's indicated there. Perhaps it needs to be opened to the upper
11 left-hand corner.
12 A. It is the 24th to the 26th of October.
13 Q. Admiral, if that is not a comfortable way for you to assist us
14 with this map, perhaps it would be easier to put it on the board rather
15 than you have strain. It may require you getting up.
16 Admiral, do you know if this map was made in the period indicated
17 on the map?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And was this map a map that you provided or handed to the officers
20 of the Office of the Prosecutor?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did you connect -- did you have this map or get this map in
23 connection with any particular reason, perhaps personal reason?
24 A. Well, yes. I got the original on the basis of which I had to make
25 a copy in order to prepare my defence and to explain the course of the
1 operation at the Dubrovnik front where I was commander.
2 Q. What does this --
3 JUDGE PARKER: Before we go any further, I think we need to adjust
4 the map so that it is facing squarely toward the Bench. In that position,
5 it may be able to be seen by the Defence as well as the Prosecution.
6 I think we've improved things.
7 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.
8 Q. Taking a general look at some of the markings on the map, in the
9 upper right-hand corner, Admiral, there is a box. Could you please
10 describe what is written in the box that has a -- actually some initials
11 and a serial number? It's in the upper right hand -- in the upper top.
12 That's it, Admiral.
13 A. "Survey of the balance of forces."
14 Q. Of what formation, what units?
15 A. Units of the 2nd Operational Group.
16 Q. And in the column on the left-hand side, what -- what is
17 indicated? The first column that reads down, what is --
18 A. On the left side is the artillery, the firing pieces.
19 Q. I think perhaps I'm not -- I may not be clear, Admiral. Where it
20 says -- there's a box and then there are a number of columns. The first
21 column down. It says something about the command of the 2nd Operational
22 Group. Can you see that, Admiral?
23 A. Yes, yes, I can see it. This is actually the composition of the
24 command, the officers, and also all the subordinate units, the number of
25 soldiers and the number of officers.
1 Q. Which subordinate units, Admiral, are listed as subordinate units
2 under the command of the 2nd Operational Group? Which ones are shown in
3 these boxes?
4 A. The 2nd Corps, the 37th corps, the 472nd Brigade, and the 9th
6 Q. Perhaps we're looking at a different column, but if you take a
7 look again, after the 37th Corps, what is written after the 37th Corps?
8 A. It says how many officers, how many junior officers, and how many
9 soldiers there are, and then there is the grand total.
10 Q. Admiral, where you've listed the units under the command of the
11 2nd Operational Group, you listed the 2nd Corps, it's in blue, the 37th
12 Corps in green. Was in pink or red below 37th Corps?
13 A. The 9th VPS in red.
14 Q. And that is your formation over which you had command?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the columns indicate numbers of officers. And what does the
17 column in blue indicate? It has a -- it's blue at the top next to
19 A. I don't think we're looking at the same thing.
20 Q. Yes, we are. At the top --
21 A. The blue here is junior officers and soldiers and the red stands
22 for officers, senior officers. Yellow is the grand total.
23 Q. And the green is -- did you say soldiers, soldiers?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. An overall -- an overall figure, the overall total for the
1 2nd Operational Group during this time period is what, Admiral? What is
2 the overall figure?
3 A. 25.684.
4 Q. Okay. Admiral, if we can look at -- emphasising the area that
5 goes toward Dubrovnik, which should be in the lower part, and particularly
6 the 9th VPS area, there is a legend on the left side of the map. I'd ask
7 you to look at the legend where it has as of a particular date lines
8 indicating what? What does the legend show us? Where it says 24, 10 --
9 A. What you see here are subcolours for certain dates, the 24th, the
10 25th, and 26th. The whole map is in relation to the colours in relation
11 to the specific locations of the units on the 24th, 25th, and 26th.
12 Q. And does that indicate also the territories or areas held by those
13 units or captured by the units at that -- on those dates?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I realise it is very small, but if you can indicate -- if we're
16 looking at the blue and red line which addresses the 24th of October, can
17 you take the pointer, please, and indicate what areas that encompasses on
18 the 24th of October?
19 A. On the 24th of October, you have indication here of a line of
20 confrontation between the 2nd Corps. It's the red line to the north and
21 to the north-west, you have units of the 2nd Corps. To the east and to
22 the south you have units of the 472nd Brigade and the 9th VPS. Here on
23 this map you have a reference for the 2nd Tactical Group that had been
24 disbanded on the 21st of October, and this is an error.
25 Q. I want to focus if we can on the areas of the 472nd Brigade and on
1 the 9th VPS. So if we can start looking at these areas that are -- that
2 have the blue and red line. Can you just point to those, please.
3 A. Here you can see the town of Dubrovnik
4 roads under the blockade you can see units of the 472nd brigade, this
5 brigade's battalions: The 1st Battalion, the 2nd Battalion, the 3rd
6 Battalion, the 4th Battalion.
7 Q. If we can look at the map to determine both what units of the
8 various battalions were in place, can we start first with -- toward the
9 bottom where it says "4 472," the 4th Battalion of the 472nd Brigade.
10 A. This battalion was in a position that was the nearest to Dubrovnik
11 and the Old Town
12 Q. Can you indicate perhaps the distances of these various places you
13 have just mentioned from Dubrovnik, and particularly from the Old Town of
15 A. The nearest elevation, Zarkovica, is about 2 kilometres. Dubac is
16 about 3 kilometres, and Brgat about 4.
17 Q. Can you assist us in pointing out on this map where the Old Town
18 of Dubrovnik is?
19 A. [Indicates]
20 Q. Are you pointing to an area that has sort of little orange dots,
21 as it were?
22 A. Yes. You can't see the dots here. Well, you can actually see
23 them, but they're not very clear, but, yes, that's what I'm talking about.
24 Q. For the record, to capture where the location is, it is to the
25 right of the printed word "Dubrovnik
1 small cluster of reddish or orange-ish dots perhaps reflecting the roof
3 On the 24th of November, then --
4 JUDGE PARKER: Could I question what you have just said. I think
5 it is to the north of the printed designation "Dubrovnik
6 the east.
7 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I'm not clear that we're pointing at the
8 same thing.
9 JUDGE PARKER: You have the printed designation "Dubrovnik
10 away to the south-east the island of Lokrum.
11 MS. SOMERS: No, but above it -- if I followed the Admiral's
12 pointer correctly, there is a small area to the east of Dubrovnik
13 although very tiny. See, it is east of the word Dubrovnik
14 to have little red dots.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may be allowed to explain.
16 It's exactly parallel to the letter K where you have the red dots at a
17 distance from the letter K. The distance is perhaps two centimetres.
18 That is the Old Town.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Admiral, yes, and I think we
20 now all have it.
21 MS. SOMERS:
22 Q. Admiral, on Zarkovica, you indicated is the closest point in this
23 area. When was -- when did Zarkovica --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- become -- when was it seized by forces of the two -- of the
1 2nd Operational Group?
2 A. On the 24th -- between the 24th and the 25th October.
3 Q. Are you able on this map to point out a feature known as Srdj?
4 A. To the north of the Old Town at a distance of one and a half
5 centimetres. Right to the north.
6 Q. Can you indicate the distance of -- of Srdj -- between Srdj and
7 the Old Town
8 and Zarkovica?
9 A. Between Srdj and the Old Town, the town wall, about a kilometre
10 and a half, maybe 1.800 metres, between 1.500 and 1.800 metres.
11 Q. And between Srdj and Zarkovica?
12 A. Between Srdj and Zarkovica, I think less than a kilometre or about
13 a kilometre, thereabouts. Maybe a kilometre and a half.
14 Q. Between the Old Town and Zarkovica?
15 A. Two kilometres. Two something. As the crow flies, of course.
16 Q. Within the area that is shown in the red and blue lines where it
17 says 4th Battalion of the 472nd Brigade, can you -- can you tell us what
18 types of weaponry were at the disposal of the units of the 2nd Operational
19 Group that were there, meaning the 4th Battalion?
20 A. The 4th Battalion had the same weapons as all the other battalions
21 establishment-wise, the same weapons as the 3rd Battalion. One mortar
22 battery, 120-millimetres. It had 80-millimetre mortars that were part of
23 the battery and these were usually attached to companies. Six
24 80-millimetre mortars altogether. It had a recoilless gun as part of the
25 anti-armour company, four such guns, three or four launchers, Maljutkas.
1 It had hand-held launchers, and that was that in terms of artillery.
2 Q. What weapons that you have referred to belonging to this battalion
3 were within firing range of the Old Town?
4 A. The Old Town was within the range of all these weapons with the
5 exception of the recoilless guns that have very small range, between a
6 thousand and 1.500 metres in terms of their practical range. Mortars, 120
7 and 82, the launchers and the Maljutkas were within range of the Old Town
8 However, I must point out that at the time, there was no firing. The
9 4th Battalion was not firing on the Old Town. It is only hypothetically
10 speaking that we can discuss these possibilities, but this battalion had
11 been pulled out, and it did not operate. It did not fire on the Old Town
12 while it was in the area.
13 Q. Let us look now at the area where the 3rd Battalion of the
14 472nd Brigade is marked. Can you first assist us with the units that
15 belong to the 3rd Battalion? It says 1, 2, 3. What is that referring to,
17 A. This 1, 2, 3: 1, 2 these are the brigade's battalions just across
18 the Rijeka Dubrovacka. This is the 1st Battalion and this is the
19 2nd Battalion. The 3rd Battalion, in the same period of time on the 24th
20 or the 25th was withdrawn. It was pulled out of combat because of the
21 losses that it had suffered and because the commander had been seriously
22 wounded. It was on account of their losses that they had been pulled out,
23 and they reassembled in this area over here, and later it was sent to
24 Ivanica and Trebinje. It was sent on leave, the entire 3rd Battalion.
25 That was after the 25th. Or, rather, on the 25th they were already on
1 leave. They had been evacuated from the area.
2 Q. Can I interrupt you for a moment, Admiral, and just ask you if the
3 numbers 1, 2, 3 are referring to battalions or to smaller units. Perhaps
4 there was either a mistranslation or perhaps we misunderstood you. What
5 size unit, what type of unit is 1, 2, 3 referring to?
6 A. These are battalions of the Trebinje Brigade. It says clearly
7 "motorised battalions."
8 Q. Right. We're not looking at the same thing. If you see on the
9 month, Admiral, where it says 3rd Motorised Battalion, there are smaller
10 numbers where it says 1, 2, 3. Do you see that? Where?
11 A. Yes, I can see that.
12 Q. That's what I was referring to, please. Can you tell us what
13 units those are?
14 A. These are the companies of that same battalion.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers, before you get more deeply into this
16 issue, I think we might have the break now.
17 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much. It may be a very welcome break.
18 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Somers.
21 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. We have been able to reduce
22 the area on the map we're looking at sufficiently so that it should fit on
23 the ELMO actually now. It might be a bit easier.
24 Q. Admiral Jokic, if you could turn your attention to the ELMO which
25 is the projector next to you, which will be showing up on your screen, and
1 use your pointer as well, to the area where the 3rd Motorised -- the
2 3rd Motorised Battalion of the 472nd Brigade is shown. If you can take us
3 through those numbers 1, 2, and 3 and tell us some type of geographical
4 name or location where the companies are, it would be helpful. For
5 example, 1. The 1st Company of the 3rd Motorised Battalion.
6 A. The 1st Company is in the area to the south.
7 Q. I think we're losing it on the map a little bit. If we can just
8 hold it steady. Thank you.
9 Sorry, Admiral, could you repeat that? The 1st Company is where,
11 A. To the south of the Vrastica rock, two centimetres to the south.
12 This is the area covered by the 1st Motorised Company.
13 Q. And the 2nd, please, the 2nd Company of the 3rd --
14 A. The 2nd Company to the north of Vrastica, two centimetres where
15 the number 2 is on the map.
16 Q. And is there a particular name associated with that area?
17 A. Rijecka Glavica. That is the name of the area.
18 Q. And the 3rd Company of the 3rd Motorised Battalion?
19 A. The 3rd Company is at Grbavac. The area of Grbavac village.
20 Q. Can you from -- either from memory or from your own knowledge as
21 well as whatever may be indicated on the map indicate the weapons that
22 belong or are at the disposal of the 1st Company?
23 A. The 1st Company had, in addition to infantry elements,
24 82-millimetre mortars, hand-held launchers.
25 Q. And the 2nd?
1 A. All three companies were the same establishment-wise, except for
2 the 4th Anti-armour Company which had artillery weapons for support. This
3 company is in the area where you see the guns underneath the number 3.
4 This is the firing group.
5 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
6 A. In this black elliptical shape. This is where the firing
7 equipment is, 82-millimetre mortars, recoilless guns, and anti-armour
8 rocket launchers.
9 Q. Are the weapons that you've described within firing range of the
10 Old Town
11 A. This was outside the firing range of the Old Town as concerns this
12 battalion because it was in an area that was not in the combat zone. They
13 were preparing for being sent on leave. They're not part of the combat
14 disposition. That's why the battalion area was shown like this on the map
15 as opposed to the 4th Battalion. This battalion is not an active
16 participant in these operations.
17 Q. When you say this battalion you're pointing to the 4th battalion
18 of the 472nd, just for the record; is that right, Admiral?
19 A. Yes, the third.
20 Q. Just to help us, there is a location above the words "3rd
21 Motorised Battalion" called --
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may for the sake
23 of the transcript, the transcript says the 4th battalion and the Admiral
24 is talking about the 3rd Battalion, and the question of my learned friend
25 and colleague also refers to the 3rd Battalion.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm talking about the
2 3rd Battalion. This battalion is not taking part in combat. It has been
3 pulled out.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
5 MS. SOMERS:
6 Q. When you say it has been pulled out, Admiral, you're talking about
7 the dates indicated on the map; is that correct? At that stage only?
8 A. Yes, as of the 25th of October.
9 Q. Okay. Are you able to indicate -- where is Uskoplje, please?
10 A. Uskoplje is to the north of this writing, the 3rd MTB. That's to
11 the north. This is an old railway station. It's a crossroads.
12 Q. Looking at the 1st -- the 1st Motorised Battalion. If that's
13 visible. If you could move your map so that we can show the 1st MTB.
14 Okay. What geographical areas are associated with that battalion at this
15 particular time? There are two companies, I believe, shown. If you can
16 break down the areas associated with the companies that would be helpful.
17 A. This 1st Motorised Battalion was in the Golubov Kamen area to the
18 right of the number 2 on the map, Zaplanik and Ostra Glava, the
19 1st Company. That's the general area. There is no detailed disposition
20 of these battalions simply because they did not take part in the action.
21 Therefore, this is not the whole area being shown here, only the two
22 forward companies are being shown.
23 Q. If we can take a look at what is the 2nd Motorised Battalion, the
24 2 MTB.
25 A. The 2nd Battalion was shown in all its parts. It was in the
1 Osojnik area, and what is shown here are the front parts the platoons and
2 the companies in the Zaton area and just above Mokosica and Petrovo Selo
3 it is marked exactly here the combat disposition all the platoons and
4 companies at the rear in the Osojnik area. One can see the reserve
5 forces, or rather, the reserve companies.
6 Q. Did any of the companies or platoons you referred to of the
7 2nd Battalion have weapons which were in range of the Old Town on this
8 date or on these dates?
9 A. No. From these positions, Osojnik and the positions of the
10 1st Battalion, Zaplanik, Golubov Kamen, you couldn't fire on the Old Town
11 from those positions. First of all on account of the distance, the
12 distances involved, and also because in between there was the rock of
13 Srdj, and Dubrava. You could fire on the new town. You could fire on
14 Babin Kuk, on Petka, on Lapad, the new part of town and the port of Gruz,
15 but the Old Town
16 Q. There are some abbreviations, smaller abbreviations on the map
17 that maybe you can help us with. Above 2 MTB it says ODTO. Could you
18 explain what that is, please? Yes, where your pointer is.
19 A. This is the Trebinje Territorial Defence detachment which was used
20 to control territory. It was not involved in combat operations. There
21 must be a position here that is marked. However, the purpose of that
22 detachment was to keep an eye on territory, to provide security for
23 facilities, to stand guard and to provide support along the possible
24 routes of operations.
25 Q. If we move over to the right where there are names, it says 1, 2,
1 BPVO and there is a symbol next to it. What does the name mean and what
2 does the symbol represent, please?
3 A. This is the anti-aircraft defence. These are guns, 20- or
4 40-millimetre guns. In the combat disposition of the brigade, this unit
5 is used for anti-aircraft defence.
6 Q. And to which unit is this anti-aircraft defence attached?
7 A. It's part of the brigade, the brigade command. It is used to
8 provide security in this particular situation for the artillery units, for
9 the howitzer division, 105-millimetres. It's to the right and above.
10 That's where it's deployed.
11 Q. You are pointing to an area that is marked as BRA -- I think it's
12 a G or an O. I can't see. 1?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And under, there's a line that says HAD-105. Is that what you're
15 referring to as the howitzer division?
16 A. Yes. Yes. That's the division. This is the brigade artillery
17 group, brigade artillery group 1 minus one battery. This is the
18 105-millimetre howitzer division, and then you have a symbol there. These
19 are two 105-millimetre howitzer batteries, and one or two 120-millimetre
20 mortar batteries. That's the composition of that particular division. It
21 is used to provide support to the brigade along the main routes of the
22 attack, and it covers the directions along which the battalion is being
23 used for combat, the 1st, the 2nd, and possibly the 3rd.
24 Q. As of this -- as of these dates from these positions, are the
25 weapons within firing range of the Old Town?
1 A. Not of the Old Town, no. This was the far end of the range of
2 those howitzers, and their range, their practical range, is ten
3 kilometres, at the most 15 kilometres, which means that this unit was at
4 the far end of the range from which you could target Dubrovnik
5 purpose was to provide support to the 1st and 2nd Battalions and the
6 3rd Battalion for targeting Rijeka Dubrovacka and the area between
7 Rijeka Dubrovacka and Zaton, and it could also be used for operations
8 along the roads leading to Dubrava but not to target Dubrovnik
9 these positions.
10 Q. Admiral, there is a marking on the map. It looks like a flag with
11 472 in it. What does that represent? It has a circle, a red circle and a
12 flag. Yes, that's it. What is that, please?
13 A. This is the command post of the 472nd Brigade in the Talez area.
14 The command post at that point in time was there. This was the command
15 post from which the brigade exercised command over its units, the
17 Q. And is that in which municipality and in which republic, please?
18 A. This is Trebinje municipality, the Republic of Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina, but you see two signs here on the map in the Talez area. One
20 stands for the command post and there is another sign in the Ljubovo area
21 just like the first one so it means the brigade command had two command
22 posts or rather one that was moving from one place to another. First it
23 was in Ljubovo then it moved to Talez.
24 Q. There is a marking on the map. It says BR it looks like POOD.
25 It's near a circle with some additional features. Your hand is on it now
1 actually. It's above -- it's to the right where it says 3 MTB. It says
2 BR POOD? Do you see it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you point it out, please, for those of us looking? It's
5 under -- in the area where it says 472nd -- if you leave it flat, you're
6 fine. There you go. Okay. If you could move it down. Thank you. What
7 does that stand for, the BR --
8 A. The brigade anti-armour detachment. The brigade anti-armour
9 detachment. This is the symbol that denotes it, a black ellipse, and
10 there is number one here. This is an artillery unit for anti-armour
11 combat. Usually these are cannons, the ZIS cannons and anti-armour
12 missiles, then hand-held mortars and weapons for anti-armour fighting that
13 battalions have such as Osa, Zolja, et cetera. At any rate, this is the
14 possible way of using it towards the front end, along this communication
16 Q. Did that anti-armour weaponry or among that weaponry would
17 Maljutkas be counted as well?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If you -- could you indicate, please, what the abbreviation POP-1
21 A. That is anti-armour position 1. So out of this ellipse, if
22 necessary, the artillery pieces go out to this position here, if
23 necessary. And this is position for anti-armour fighting. And then once
24 given orders, these weapons are moved out here, and then returned yet
25 again depending on the need involved.
1 Q. And the -- the presence of the anti-armour weapons, what was the
2 purpose? Was there a -- did -- was there a Croatian armour that was of
3 concern? Did the Croatian side have armour that you were concerned about?
4 A. Well, not at that time. This is a classical schematic of the
5 deployment of a brigade in an operation involving attack. Since the
6 brigade has this anti-armour weaponry, then the commander deploys them
7 along the axes where they may be used in order to train them since he has
8 this within the weaponry of the brigade, but there was no military
9 necessity, because at the time the opposite side did not have any such
11 Q. Are you able to point out any tanks indicated within the
12 472nd Brigade on this map?
13 A. No, not here, because the terrain does not allow the use of tanks.
14 So they were not there in that brigade or, rather, the 2nd Operational
15 Group had a tank unit which was in Popovo Polje. The brigade had got a
16 company with old World War II tanks, T-32, that were so obsolete that
17 finally this company was split into two or three smaller groups. Later
18 on, they were at Dubrava facing Srdj, and they were given to the
19 3rd Battalion. Two were dug in, and two were manoeuvering ones for
21 Q. Thank you, Admiral. Can you indicate the most forward line as of
22 the 20 -- for the 472nd Brigade as of the 26th of October?
23 A. The most forward point was Zarkovica, here within the combat
24 deployment of the 4th Battalion.
25 Q. And again the distance of that most forward line from Dubrovnik
1 the Old Town
2 A. Around two or two and a half kilometres to the first walls near
3 the Old City
5 Q. All right. Can you indicate the waters now around Dubrovnik
6 was in control of the waters at that time?
7 A. The blockade of town from the sea was carried out by the
8 9th Sector, the units of the 16th Group that had four patrol boats and one
9 gunboat. These were small boats, about 100 tonnes each, which very little
10 weaponry. In peacetime, they were used for controlling fishing boats and
11 defending the sea, preventing smuggling and so on. Their basic task was
12 to act on the -- on the line Cavtat, Mljet, Kolocep, Dubrovnik Islands and
13 in that patrol there were usually one to two boats. Their task was to
14 stop smuggling by speedboats and other smaller, fast boats during the
15 night which came from Metkovic and Ston via these Dubrovnik
16 the night. They came to the port of Gruz and supplied the town with
17 weapons and other combat needs. Also, these boats intercepted or, rather,
18 checked all the boats that came into Dubrovnik
19 were coming from the outside, those who -- those who were allowed to enter
20 into order to supply the town.
21 Q. Thank you, Admiral. I think that pretty well explains who was in
22 control of the -- the coastal waters.
23 From what you have described with the lines and the waters, would
24 you be able to -- would you characterise the situation in the Dubrovnik
25 area, at least as far as the city of Dubrovnik
1 or totally blockaded?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. At this time, that is up to the 26th of October, was -- to what
4 formation was the 472nd Motorised Brigade directly subordinated?
5 A. Up to the 26th of October, the 472nd Brigade was directly
6 subordinate to the 2nd Operational Group.
7 Q. And that was commanded by?
8 A. Commanded by General Strugar.
9 MS. SOMERS: I would ask to move this exhibit into evidence,
11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P120.
13 MS. SOMERS:
14 Q. May I ask you, please, to turn your attention to tab 21. This is
15 a document, Admiral, which is dated the 20 -- I'm sorry, one further
16 question on the map.
17 Do the positions which you have shown on the map depict or
18 are -- as of the 23rd of October, would the positions of the 2nd
19 Operational Group differ to those which you have shown on the map from,
20 let's say the 24th to the 26th of October?
21 A. I don't understand your point.
22 Q. Let me rephrase it. The positions that you have shown us on the
23 map reflect the period 24 to 26 October. Would there have been -- would
24 there have been a substantial difference in positions as of the 23rd of
25 October, which is not indicated on the map? Would the positions have been
1 much different from those that are indicated? Do you understand my
2 question now?
3 A. Well, yes. On the 23rd and 24th of October, there was an action,
4 a phase of the operation when Kupari was raided and Zupa Dubrovacka was
5 taken. That could not be seen on this map. So these battalions we saw on
6 the map just now reached this area on the 24th, 25th, and 26th. Before
7 that they were a bit further away and they were deployed in a somewhat
8 different fashion at the time when the brigade was commanded by the
9 2nd Operational Group.
10 Q. So do I take it to mean that the positions for the 23rd are
11 approximate to the positions of the 24th, for our purposes?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you, Admiral.
14 Q. Looking at what is in front of you, an order addressed and in the
15 Serbo-Croatian version I'd like to point out a couple of typos so that the
16 Bench can correct them. Yes, but the typos are in translation,
18 It is addressed to the command of the 2nd Operational Group. Is
19 that correct, Admiral? Command of the 2OG?
20 A. This document was compiled by the 2nd Operational Group, their
21 command, that is, and it was sent to my command and to the 472nd Brigade.
22 It is signed by General Pavle Strugar or, rather, Filipovic signed it on
23 his behalf.
24 Q. The -- the correction I'm referring to is that it should
25 say -- it's from the 2OG but I believe in the English version it only says
1 2, and it should have command 2OG. And if the Court would be good enough
2 to make that correction.
3 What is the essence of this order? What is it discussing?
4 A. This order has to do with what I talked about a short while ago,
5 operations of the 472nd Brigade and the 9th VPS. Through those
6 operations, these units came to the position that we saw on the map a
7 short while ago, so this is before the 23rd and the 24th of October.
8 Tasks are given to the units of the 472nd Brigade according to
9 battalions, which positions they are supposed to take, that is. And it
10 can be seen from the order that the command of the 2nd Operational Group
11 is directly assigning tasks to my sector and the brigade, each and every
12 battalion of the brigade separately.
13 Q. Is there an attachment? Do you see what is an attachment to this
14 particular document? And I will again point out in a moment some
15 corrections that need to be made in the English version, but if you see
16 afterward there is a -- an attachment which is -- which bears at the
17 bottom the name of the artillery Chief of Staff for the 2nd Operational
18 Group, Lieutenant Bozidar Petkovski. Do you see it, Admiral?
19 A. Yes, yes. This is a proposal for engaging artillery in this
20 operation for all of the artillery forces both of the brigade and the
21 9th Sector. So this document shows that the chief of artillery of the
22 2nd Operational Group gave detailed tasks to all batteries, all artillery
23 units in this operation. So he said what the targets were and the
24 security zones and the structure of artillery fire and all other details.
25 This is not done usually. However, this is the only operation where the
1 units that bordered on each other had to act in concert and, therefore,
2 the command has to control all artillery units in order to have
3 coordinated action vis-a-vis the targets.
4 Q. Admiral, on the first page of the document which is the one
5 bearing General Strugar's name, there is a section under the -- it says
6 472nd Motorised Brigade, and the -- I want to just confirm with you that
7 where it says: "To carry out smaller --" the translation is "dislocations
8 of units before dawn and in the following manner," and then it refers to a
9 unit. In Serbo-Croatian, what unit is referred to by 2MTB? Do you see
10 where it says 2MTB under 472nd?
11 A. Yes, but it is the 3rd Battalion that is referred to here and
12 getting the soldier who was from the 3rd Battalion who got killed out. So
13 it's not the 2nd battalion. It's the 3rd Battalion.
14 Q. What I'm asking you just to assist us with it says I believe in
15 your language 2MTB and should MTB be battalion or brigade? What should be
16 the correct translation, please?
17 A. That is the 2nd MTB, the 2nd Motorised Battalion, not brigade, not
19 MS. SOMERS: I believe the English says Your Honour the
20 2nd Motorised Brigade and I ask if you could please correct it. And I
21 believe that the same occurs in the paragraph indicating the 4th Motorised
22 it should read "Brigade," and it says -- I'm sorry, it should read
23 "Battalion" and it says "Brigade."
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. SOMERS:
1 Q. Thank you for your help.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Excuse me. I'm just checking something.
4 When -- if and when an artillery chief submits an order or
5 proposal, excuse me, is it done so at the direction of his commander,
6 commander of the Operational Group?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. SOMERS: I would ask this document be admitted into evidence,
11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be document Prosecution Exhibit P121.
13 MS. SOMERS:
14 Q. Looking again at what has been what I believe -- yes, it was
15 admitted in evidence at tab 19. Just taking a look at tab 19, which was
16 P119. Looking back at it, Admiral, this order is an order from
17 Major General Pavle Strugar giving very detailed -- detailed instructions
18 about actions to take place in operations against enemy forces, having
19 specific instructions for the command of the 9th VPS, which is your
20 command, and the 472nd Motorised Brigade to report directly or personally
21 to General Strugar concerning actions taken. Was this --
22 A. Yes. This is an order issued on the 24th of October. This is a
23 decision related to further activities, and the order is to the commander
24 of the brigade and the commander of the sector to report to his command
25 post in order to resubordinate the brigade to the 9th Sector. This combat
1 order shows that the units of the sector and the brigade had got to the
2 rock above Zupa, above Kupari and that they took the road between Trebinje
3 and Dubrovnik.
4 Q. Admiral, does this order suggest that the operation is clearly
5 under the control and directed by General Strugar?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. There's one -- there's one aspect of the order that I wish to ask
8 you about, and -- let me just find it. The last page of it, in English,
9 Your Honours, it would be 03409154, there is a paragraph which states:
10 "By using the disciplinary and criminal measures, you should stop the
11 defeatism, betrayal, cowardice and panic and by emphasising bravery,
12 dedication and heroic deeds you should strengthen the unity and toughness
13 of the soldier collective." Do you know perhaps what underlay inserting
14 such a paragraph in this order?
15 A. This shows that there were measures to be taken to raise the
16 combat readiness and morale in the units because there had been
17 occurrences of indiscipline and unsoldierly conduct and so on. The
18 commander deemed this was the most important task. Immediately after
19 giving a combat task he talked about the morale. Usually in these combat
20 orders only the essential things are discussed, but this combat order
21 speaks about nothing else but the morale of the troops and providing
22 security which means that this was the focus. This was what they really
23 needed to direct their attention to.
24 Q. Subsequent to the combat operations of 23, 24, 25 October, did you
25 receive information to the effect that shells from positions under the
1 control of the 2nd Operational Group had impacted in the Old Town of
2 Dubrovnik? Did you receive information that there had been shells
4 A. No. I didn't have any such information at the time.
5 Q. We're talking about the time period after the actual operations.
6 A. Yes. Personally, I had heard about that, but it was only after
7 the visit of the journalists and ambassadors, but I learned more about
8 this when the journalists came to Dubrovnik
9 possible that this was published in the press and in the media, but at the
10 time I knew nothing about it, nor was this in any of our reports, the
11 reports that we received. Those were actually the five or six shells that
12 landed on the Old Town as it turned out later.
13 Q. Are you aware that General Kadijevic on or about the 26th of
14 October wrote to letter to Lord Carrington in which he denied any shelling
15 of the Old Town
16 A. Yes, on the 26th of October. That's when the letter was dated,
17 and it spoke about this.
18 Q. Were you required to meet a delegation of ambassadors in Tivat on
19 or about the 29th of October?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. At the meeting, in a similar vein to General Kadijevic, did you
22 inform the ambassadors that the Old Town had not been shelled?
23 A. Yes, I did. I heard this information after they had returned from
24 their visit to the town itself. However, as I had no facts about that, I
25 told them that I was not familiar and that I was not aware of all these
1 things, which was the case.
2 Q. Was your comment about -- did you have -- sorry. I -- I withdraw
3 that question.
4 Did you supply the ambassadors with a means of -- of
5 transportation to visit Dubrovnik
6 A. Yes, I gave them a ship.
7 Q. What -- sorry.
8 A. And they used this ship to get there.
9 Q. And was there a particular reason why they used a ship as opposed
10 to any other means of transportation?
11 A. Prior to that, on the 28th of November -- or October, rather, I'm
12 sorry, on the 28th of October, we had negotiations, commander of the
13 2nd Operational Group, General Strugar had negotiations in Meljine. I
14 think that was the representative, the envoy of the European Commission,
15 Bandioli, he was present and we spoke about this group of ambassadors and
16 how they would reach the town of Dubrovnik
17 our communication between Boka Kotorska through Herzegovina
18 was dangerous in some of its sections, some of the sections of the road
19 were mined and there was not enough time to remove all the mines, and
20 bearing in mind the fact that along the road there were quite many houses
21 that had been burnt down or demolished, General Strugar and I agreed that
22 the safest thing for the ambassadors would be to travel by sea.
23 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me just a moment.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MS. SOMERS:
1 Q. After the ambassadors returned from Dubrovnik
2 to check whether I have the date correct on this.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MS. SOMERS:
5 Q. After your meeting on the 29th of October, did you have a social
6 evening with the group of ambassadors?
7 A. Yes. We had dinner at the JNA centre in Tivat.
8 Q. Do you happen to recall if at some stage during this visit
9 General Strugar also met with the ambassadors?
10 A. No. General Strugar was not with the ambassadors on that
12 Q. You do not recall his being there?
13 A. No. I remember clearly the meeting and everything about it, but
14 this was not envisaged. I received orders to -- to carry out this task.
15 He was probably back at his command post or in Podgorica. I can't
16 remember right now, but I was assigned to carry out that specific task.
17 Q. But you don't know for sure if General Strugar may have at some
18 point met with them? You didn't know where he was?
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It seems it's a proposition to be quite the
21 contrary of the evidence that was given.
22 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. I'll move on. Thank you.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers.
24 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.
25 Q. Was there, within 2nd Operational Group, any perceptible attitude,
1 complaints or protest that is were lodged against the 2nd Operational
2 Group by either the European Community or the other side?
3 A. You mean in general or on that specific occasion? I don't
5 Q. After that time in particular -- well, we're looking at the period
6 from 23 to 25 October. Was there any particular attitude that you might
7 have perceived?
8 A. Generally speaking, there was no specific attitude about each
9 protest by the Crisis Staff of Dubrovnik or the representatives of the
10 European Community on our part. There were quite a number of those, and
11 some are reflected in documents in which we were due to reply to those
12 protests. Sometimes we wrote back to the General Staff and to
13 Admiral Brovet specifically. I can't generalise about all the cases, but
14 the general belief was that their side was blowing these instances of
15 shelling out of all proportion and these acts of provocation by firing in
17 As far as I remember, on one occasion we asked that the
18 representatives of the European Community come over to our side, that
19 there be delegates who would then tour our units in order to harmonise
20 their positions. They suspected that the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff was
21 exaggerating the extent of shelling and acts of provocation, but we also
22 believed that the European Community tended to often side with Dubrovnik
23 It was promised to us that there would be delegates who would come over to
24 our side, but this never materialised.
25 I accept, however, that it was possible that there were denials,
1 that we were to blame for many of the cases, many of the things that
2 occurred as part of those acts of provocation by firing.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one clarification
5 in relation to the interpretation on page 72, line 24. It says "they"
6 [In English] "suspected that the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff," [Interpretation]
7 when actually the admiral said "we suspected that the Dubrovnik Crisis
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
10 MS. SOMERS:
11 Q. After the incident -- excuse me. Once -- once information had
12 made its way to the 2nd Operational Group about a suggestion or indication
13 of impacts in the Old Town and the shelling incident, was any
14 investigation or inquiry undertaken concerning the shelling incident?
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. Nothing so
16 far in this witness's testimony could possibly be used as a foundation for
17 this question. First of all, we should ask was there any information?
18 Was any information received, followed by the next which, was there any
19 reaction to this information being received.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we have heard that the admiral learnt of some
21 shells falling, five or six he said, in the period before the 30th of
22 October. He heard of them on the 30th of October. I don't know whether
23 that is what you're referring to, Ms. Somers.
24 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. It would qualify as notice, and I
25 would just like -- I think that the question, therefore, would be
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
3 MS. SOMERS:
4 Q. Admiral, if I need to repeat it for you, was any investigation or
5 inquiry conduct -- sorry, conducted following the allegations of shelling
6 on the 23rd and 24th of October by forces of the -- of the JNA or the
7 2nd Operational Group into the Old Town of Dubrovnik
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there seems to be a
9 problem with us understanding each other here. The admiral said that he
10 only learned about some things later. My learned friend and colleague,
11 based on this testimony today, draws, on the basis of that, a conclusion
12 which she then links with the 2nd Operational Group. That's the essence
13 of our problem. Admiral is the commander of the 9th VPS. Therefore, I
14 seem to be missing a link between the unit he commands and whoever else
15 may be there. However, the link has not been established for this
17 JUDGE PARKER: My note, Mr. Petrovic, is that on the 30th of
18 October, from the journalists, the admiral learned that five or six shells
19 had landed in the Old Town, and he said that these had been from units of
20 the 2nd Operational Group. That's my note of the evidence. So that his
21 knowledge on that evidence was not just of his own immediate command but
22 of conduct involving troops of the Operational Group of which he was a
23 part, and the question, as I understand it, is whether there was any
24 inquiry or investigation undertaken into that or shelling incident or
25 those shelling incidents.
1 MS. SOMERS:
2 Q. Admiral, that is the question His Honour has just repeated. Are
3 you able to answer it?
4 A. Yes. As for that particular event, as I said, I only learned
5 about that from the journalists. My ship, the 137 patrol boat, was used
6 to transport those journalists, to take them to the town, and after their
7 tour of the town they were returned, driven back to Cavtat. It was then
8 that I heard about it. It was either from Zec or from the boat commander
9 that a lot of damage had occurred in the New Town, in Babin Kuk and Lapad
10 where the hotels are and there was only minor damage in the Old Town, that
11 an old museum called Rupe, an old granary had been damaged but that no one
12 was wounded or killed and that there were only five or six shells that
13 landed there. That's what I learned, I believe, on the 30th or the 31st.
14 Q. Can you indicate whether in the area around Dubrovnik
15 any formations that did not belong to the 2nd Operational Group, any
16 formations of the JNA?
17 A. No, there were no such formations. All those formations were
18 under the command of the 2nd Operational Group, including of course the
19 9th Sector which is part of the 2nd Operational Group.
20 Q. I don't believe that I was able to -- perhaps we didn't get an
21 answer to the question about inquiry or investigation of the alleged
22 shelling. Are you able to answer that, Admiral?
23 A. I don't know that there was any investigation, but if I understand
24 you correctly, which position did the command take whenever information
25 was received about shelling at, provocation of firing against the enemy.
1 The procedure that was followed was, roughly speaking, as follows: The
2 commander of the Operational Group, based on an assessment made by his own
3 staff most probably, the assessment was made as to which units may have
4 taken part in such an operation. Then there is an order usually by phone
5 to investigate the case and to report.
6 This is exactly what I did in cases where such things happened
7 under my command. However, an investigation would imply a more thorough
8 procedure. I know what an investigation is supposed to mean, and I was
9 not aware that any investigation was undertaken.
10 Q. Even in the face of allegations of shelling from units of the
11 2nd Operational Group, are you aware of any extra measures that may have
12 been taken by the Operational Group to ensure the safety of the Old Town
13 in the face of such an allegation? Was anything done in the way
14 of -- well, was anything done?
15 A. I'm not aware of any particular measures, but certainly the next
16 combat order the measure was for the commander to repeat the ban on firing
17 on the Old Town
18 this was done on a regular basis.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, then, Ms. Somers?
20 MS. SOMERS: Yes. I -- I would say so if -- unless the Chamber
21 wishes to get one more document in on this area. Okay, give up. Thank
23 JUDGE PARKER: We would just lose too much critical time. It's
24 important we finish on time for movements of different people.
25 MS. SOMERS: Thanks.
1 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn until tomorrow morning.
2 I must ask you to return then, Admiral, if you will. Thank you.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.46 p.m.
4 to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of March,
5 2004, at 9.00 a.m.