Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5299

1 Monday, 26 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. If I could remind you of the

7 affirmation which you took when your evidence commenced, it still applies.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, before my learned friend

10 commences, may I just have the floor for a moment to make a correction to

11 the record.


13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: With regard to the exhibit bearing number P160,

14 Your Honour will recall that the Malutka, which was positioned at Hotel

15 President in Lapad was marked as B, with the letter B. But unfortunately,

16 in the map, it has been marked with the letter -- I'm sorry, it should

17 have been marked with the letter D, but in the map by mistake it has been

18 marked with the letter B. And this could lead to confusion because there

19 are two positions with the letter B. Could that be corrected,

20 Your Honour. Perhaps I could even do this in re-examination.

21 JUDGE PARKER: I think you have given us notice of it. If you

22 deal with it in re-examination, thank you very much.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And Your Honour, I have one further correction.

24 That is at page 9 in LiveNote. And the third question, actually more than

25 transcript error, I have phrased the question incorrectly, and that does

Page 5300

1 not reflect the factual situation. So may I just read it out,

2 Your Honour.

3 I have asked the question in this manner: "And then you added two

4 positions to the map, being positions that were there on the 6th of

5 December 1991, which are not reflected in this map, being the Malutka

6 position at Hotel President in Lapad by the coursal line [sic], the

7 position marked D, and the position at Mala Petka, which is the position

8 marked C."

9 But the factual situation is, Your Honour, that the witness added

10 three positions. In addition to the positions I identified here, there is

11 also an additional position marked A, that is, the rocket launcher close

12 to Hotel Libertas. And I think my learned friends do not object to these.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Well, you've drawn attention to it so that

14 Mr. Rodic has notice of it, and we are aware of it. Thank you.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic: [Continued]

21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,

22 Mr. Negodic.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. We will continue where we left off on Friday.

25 Can you tell me whether you know that the 1st engineering group

Page 5301

1 established in Dubrovnik on the 28th of July 1991 actually started

2 operating in August the same year?

3 A. I'm not aware of any details.

4 Q. Do you know that at the very beginning, at Beru Tana [phoen]

5 Pobrezje, that mines were being removed -- were being placed with 45

6 kilograms of Vitezit?

7 A. No, I'm just aware of the TUP factory.

8 Q. In August, was the area of Vitalijna destroyed; and the Brgat

9 road, was it destroyed?

10 A. I know part of Konavle, vis-a-vis Siroki Brijeg, but I don't know

11 about the second question that you put.

12 Q. In the month of September was the area of Ostojnik mined?

13 A. I'm not aware of that.

14 Q. Do you know about the mining of communications between Slano and

15 Zavala?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Towards the end of September, was the hill of Palas on the Brgat

18 Ivanica Road mined?

19 A. I'm not aware of that.

20 Q. The ports in Gruz harbour, were they mined?

21 A. The approach to the port of Gruz.

22 Q. Was the area at the defence line of Dubrovnik mined? That part of

23 town that was defended?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. A detachment of armed boats formed on the 1st of September 1991 --

Page 5302

1 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not get the names of the

2 commander, the deputy commander. The speakers are too fast.

3 A. I know that it was established. But I'm not aware of the names of

4 the commander and the deputy commander.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. In Dubrovnik in the month of November, was the Croatian Navy

7 established with a commander for Dubrovnik, Nikola Plizvic [phoen] being

8 the commander?

9 A. Yes, but I don't know the date.

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Did speed boats bring in ammunition and weapons as well as

12 personnel into Dubrovnik?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell me from which area they brought these supplies in?

15 A. As far as I know, via Peljesac, Mljet, Sipan, Lopud, Kolocep, and

16 then the Bay of Lapad.

17 Q. Tell me, please, within logistics, are food and accommodation of

18 personnel organised in the following way: Using hotel rooms to a maximum?

19 A. Every hotel has its own kitchen, and that was the most appropriate

20 place for preparing food.

21 Q. I'll repeat. When I ask about this type of logistics, I'm asking

22 about the Croatian Army. Were hotels used for their food and

23 accommodation in Dubrovnik?

24 A. No. Only food was prepared for the military. And the military

25 was deployed just like my part, in Rasica, which was an abandoned

Page 5303

1 recreation area.

2 Q. Could all the defenders fit into Vila Rasica?

3 A. No, I'm talking about my own unit.

4 Q. Were vehicles and drivers mobilised in Dubrovnik for military

5 purposes from all companies and from the entire business community, mainly

6 Dubrovkinja and DST?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. After Kupari fell on the 24th of October, did the number of

9 Croatian soldiers go down and were they abandoning Dubrovnik?

10 A. I'm not aware of that. There were different groupings in the town

11 of Dubrovnik, in the narrow sense of the word, so I cannot exactly tell

12 whether the number actually changed.

13 Q. Do you know whether at the meeting held between Nojko Marinovic

14 and then Eduard Cengija and Mladen Jurkovic [phoen] in the Hotel Zagreb on

15 the 24th of October an agreement was reached to remain in the town of

16 Dubrovnik?

17 A. I'm not aware of any details, but there was a meeting.

18 Q. On the morning of the 25th of October, did Cengija and Mladen

19 Jurkovic with their guard take the outskirts of town on the east, as well

20 as the defence line going from Ploca to Orkanski Visovi [phoen] and the

21 area in front of the Argentina Hotel towards Zlatni Potok?

22 A. As far as I know, this area was taken, the eastern area, because

23 it was assumed that the old road [Realtime transcript read in error

24 "town"] to Dubrovnik, the pathway, could be used for an infantry attack.

25 I cannot tell you about any further details.

Page 5304












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Page 5305

1 Q. And on the same day, did the guard take the area of the road from

2 Ploca towards Ilijina Glavica?

3 A. As far as I know, along the entire length of the road above town

4 as the road goes, that is a pedestrian area, and it was covered in its

5 entirety, if I can put it that way.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Could you pause, Mr. Rodic.

7 Two matters in the transcript. At 5, line 15 at the moment, you

8 refer, sir, to the town of Dubrovnik in the narrow sense of the word. If

9 you can see the screen in front of you --

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE PARKER: -- it's now line 15. I'm talking principally to the

12 witness at the moment.

13 Can you see the screen in front of you, the television. You

14 haven't a screen. Do you see line 15, you speak of Dubrovnik, the "town

15 in the narrow sense of the word." I wondered what you were meaning there

16 by the "the narrow sense of the word."

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I say that, I mean

18 the territory of town, except for the bordering municipalities. So I'm

19 not talking about the Old Town only. I'm talking about the territory from

20 Ploca to Sustjepan. That is what we consider to be the "town in the

21 narrow sense of the word" but not referring only to the old historical

22 centre of town.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. I felt you didn't, but I

24 thought it needed to be clarified. Can you also look at line 25. Well, I

25 don't think you need to look; I think it should simply be noted that there

Page 5306

1 is an error in the transcript. What you said in the English translation

2 was that "it was assumed that the old road to Dubrovnik" whereas what is

3 recorded is the Old Town. So we'll just notice that there was an error

4 there and "town" should read "road."

5 Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Rodic.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Negodic, let us clarify this once again. When you talk about

8 the town of Dubrovnik, there is the Municipality of Dubrovnik. That is a

9 much broader area. And the town of Dubrovnik then, and then the Old Town

10 of Dubrovnik. In this case, when you speak of the town of Dubrovnik, and

11 when you speak of positions in the town in the narrower sense of the word,

12 could you tell us geographically again which -- what that area be?

13 A. When we say the town in the narrow sense of the word, I mean the

14 road coming from Dubac, the eastern approach, that is. Then on the other

15 side, the approach from the main road from the village of Sustjepan to the

16 harbour of Gruz. So it is Ploca, Gruz, Lapad, et cetera. When I talk

17 about the Old Town, allow me to say simply the Old Town. And by saying

18 that, I will mean that specifically.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 Let me continue in relation to these questions pertaining to the

21 taking of positions in this town in the narrow sense of the word on the

22 25th of October 1991. Tell me, do you know whether on that day or in that

23 period the special police entered the Old Town?

24 A. I don't know about that. May I just add something. As far as I

25 know, an order was issued for uniformed persons, soldiers and policemen

Page 5307

1 alike, were not allowed to move about the Old Town.

2 Q. Do you know then who issued this order that uniformed soldiers or

3 policemen were not allowed to move about the Old Town, within the Old

4 Town?

5 A. It was issued by the commander for the defence of Dubrovnik.

6 Nojko Marinovic. That was an order issued to the subordinate officers,

7 and they were supposed to convey these orders to their soldiers. The same

8 goes for the police. But I don't know how this was addressed to the

9 police, in which way.

10 Q. I assume, and you will tell me whether I'm right, that this same

11 order probably regulated the fact that no arms were allowed in the Old

12 Town.

13 A. Yes. This order was valid in the military, and I assumed it was

14 valid for the police, too.

15 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, during the month of November, there

16 was a reestablishment in the military formations of Dubrovnik. The 1st

17 Battalion, was it then commanded by Eduard Cengija?

18 A. I know that he was there, but I think the commander of the 1st

19 Battalion was the one you mentioned a few minutes ago. The same last

20 name.

21 Q. Mladen Jurkovic?

22 A. Yes, Mladen Jurkovic.

23 Q. Do you know Mladen Jurkovic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did he participate in the defence of Dubrovnik all the time?

Page 5308

1 A. As far as I know, yes. But I cannot give an answer with any

2 certainty.

3 Q. Tell me, the command post of this battalion, was it at the

4 dormitory for women students?

5 A. Possibly, but I'm not aware of that.

6 Q. The positions of this battalion, in the month of December 1991,

7 were they between Ilijina Glavica to Orsula and the Belvedere Hotel?

8 A. As far as I know, yes.

9 Q. Do you know whether in the month of November 1991 a mixed

10 detachment was formed of marines and landing infantry in Dubrovnik?

11 A. I just know that the navy as such was established. But what it

12 actually boiled down to, I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know whether in the month of November groups for providing

14 security along the sea belt were established in the Croatian Navy?

15 A. As far as I know, groups were established, but what units they

16 actually consisted of, I don't know. It was like duty in the Bay of Lapad

17 and things like that.

18 Q. In the area of the Splendid Hotel, was Zeljko Djuratovic the

19 commander of such a group?

20 A. One of these hotels. I don't know if it was Splendid or Vis. And

21 who commanded this group, I can't say, I really don't know.

22 Q. I'm not going to ask you for the names of these commanders. But

23 I'll just ask you whether you know that these groups for providing

24 security in the sea belt were by the Adriatik Komodor Hotel, the Vila

25 Edit, Vila Elita, and the Argos Hotel?

Page 5309

1 A. As for these first hotels, you mentioned, yes. As for the Argos

2 Hotel, I really don't know. These hotels, as I mentioned a few minutes

3 ago, were in the Bay of Lapad. That's where they are.

4 Q. The command of the defence of Dubrovnik, in the month of October

5 1991, did it reach a decision that if and when necessary and with a view

6 to organising defence, all houses that are on the approaches of town

7 should be used for protection and for firing?

8 A. I don't know whether that was in oral or written form. But the

9 houses by the road, by the front line, were used for accommodation and

10 food and that's also where they slept.

11 Q. Do you know maybe whether that decision was approved by the

12 executive board of the Dubrovnik Municipality towards the end of 1991,

13 towards the end of October 1991?

14 A. I don't know any details.

15 Q. In case they resisted, would the owners of these houses be

16 criminally liable? Was that the law at the time?

17 A. I don't know that. But I do know that all those houses were

18 abandoned because the owners left for security reasons. They went to

19 hotels and big buildings that had nuclear shelters. And those buildings

20 included the hospital, et cetera. Those houses were abandoned by the

21 owners and their families because they were on the first defence line.

22 Q. Several times during your examination-in-chief, you said that

23 after the landing and assault in Kupari and the fall of Kupari on the 24th

24 of October 1991, JNA occupied Zarkovica and Bosanka on the same day or the

25 next day?

Page 5310












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Page 5311

1 A. Yes, I said that, but I said that I could not be precise to a day.

2 It could have been the night between the 24th and the 25th or between the

3 25th and the 26th.

4 Q. Yes, but tell me, was that fact, the fall of Bosanka, Kupari, and

5 Zarkovica, the reason why this defence line was established in the

6 Dubrovnik proper, Dubrovnik in the narrow sense of the word as you put it?

7 A. I served in the artillery so that I am not really aware of why it

8 wasn't done two days earlier or two days later.

9 Q. Tell me, please, in the middle of November 1991, was the new

10 defence line of Dubrovnik from Orsula, Belvedere Hotel, Zlatni Potok,

11 Orkanski Visovi, Srdj Hill, Nuncijata, Sustjepan, and along the coastline

12 from Babin Kuk, Uvala [phoen], Lapad, Gradac, Old Town?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Tell me, did the reserve captain, Darko Pracki [phoen] command

15 over the 76-millimetre cannon?

16 A. Yes, for a while.

17 Q. Did Ivica Santic command a 76-millimetre battery of cannons?

18 A. Yes. Did you say battery of cannons? He was commander of the

19 artillery rocket battalion in the process of being established. How can

20 he -- how could he be a commander of a couple of cannons? A couple of

21 cannons would form a platoon rather.

22 Q. Tell me, did Damir Golemac, a reserve lieutenant, command over a

23 rocket launcher of 128 millimetres?

24 A. Yes. For a while, he occupied that position. But he was

25 initially engaged as a surveyor in order to train people to use maps.

Page 5312

1 Q. Tell me, Hajrudin Fazlic, junior lieutenant, was he a commander of

2 a mortar battery of 82 and 128 millimetres?

3 A. If we are talking about November and December, he was deputy

4 commander.

5 Q. Who was the commander?

6 A. I'll remember his name later, and I'll tell you. Oh, he was

7 Mratovic, M-r-a-t-o-v-i-c.

8 Q. Stojan Gadzic, was he a commander over the Maljutka and Tijton

9 [phoen] weapons?

10 A. I cannot really say that he was a commander. But he was in

11 charge.

12 Q. You mean that he was in charge of the Maljutka anti-tank weapons?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Tell me, in the area of the Ilijina Glavica, were there two

15 cannons of 85 millimetres?

16 A. In the area of the town in November and December, we did not have

17 any 85-millimetre cannons. They were deployed in that area in October.

18 One in the front part of Konavle. That one was captured, together with a

19 crew. And the crew was in Morinje. The second cannon remained above the

20 hotel in Cavtat, the Croatia Hotel, and it was abandoned by the crew

21 facing an onslaught by the army. These were the two 82-millimetre cannons

22 that I mentioned on Friday. You have it all on record. You mentioned

23 four. I told you about the location of two of them. And I don't know

24 about the other two because I had never seen them.

25 Q. That's right. When we talked on Friday, I asked you about Nojko

Page 5313

1 Marinovic and the fact that he brought four such cannons from the island

2 of Korcula to Dubrovnik, and you said you knew only about two of them?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. So you don't know anything about the other two?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. Was the recoilless cannon in the area of Ilijna Glavica?

7 A. No. The recoilless cannon as I have shown on the map was supposed

8 to be used as an anti-artillery weapon used preventively so that ships

9 could not enter the Gruz port. That is how I received my assignment and

10 conveyed it further on.

11 Q. Did this recoilless cannon ever change position?

12 A. Yes, it did. In the second half of December, that was the time

13 when the ships that were logistical support in Slano and Zaton Bays were

14 brought closer to the Kolocep island, and they did have sufficient range.

15 One night we moved Maljutka to the island of Kolocep and replaced it with

16 one of these recoilless cannons. Then negotiations ensued to prevent fire

17 being opened on ships that were logistical ports in Slano and Zaton Bays.

18 Q. Was that before the signing of the ceasefire on the 7th of

19 December?

20 A. I can't remember the date. It was 12 or 13 years ago.

21 Q. When there was a combat group in Ilijna Glavica with two mortars

22 of 128 millimetres and one Maljutka, were these weapons there?

23 A. Well, I don't see any reason why anybody would put a Maljutka on

24 Ilijna Glavica when it can serve no purpose there. It would be simply

25 decorative.

Page 5314

1 Q. Tell me, in the area of Gospina Polja, were there two

2 66-millimetre ZIS cannons?

3 A. Gospina Polja is a broader area. One 66-millimetre ZIS cannon was

4 positioned, and another was in Mala Petka.

5 Q. On the 6th of December in Ivo Vojnovic Street, was there an

6 exchange of fire between a unit of military police and --

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name of the

8 brigade.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. When several members of the brigade got killed?

11 A. During that whole day, I was in the vicinity of that street. But

12 from what I could see, there was no misunderstanding and no commotion.

13 And as far as that part of the street that I couldn't see is concerned, I

14 don't know.

15 Q. Did you hear about this conflict, this clash?

16 A. Yes. There were some stories going around. But I was too busy

17 doing other things, and I was also wounded on that day. So that several

18 days after that, I ended up in hospital. So I cannot help you there.

19 Q. This is the first I hear of it. Tell me, where were you wounded?

20 How?

21 A. I was driving a Renault 4. An explosion threw a garbage bin at

22 me, and I got hurt. Somebody put a compression bandage on me and some

23 painkillers, and I was returned to my position.

24 Q. Tell me, at what time did that happen?

25 A. It could have been around 8.00 -- sorry, 11.00.

Page 5315

1 Q. You mean 11.00 a.m. on the 6th of December?

2 A. Yes, because at half past 11.00 when I returned, I went again to

3 this combat position, the SDK, which was out of ammunition.

4 Q. Tell me, that what happened when you were on your own position?

5 A. No, that happened when I was going towards Babin Kuk. We had a

6 lightly injured person with us. And from the hotel in Babin Kuk, I picked

7 up a woman who was seriously wounded, and I was driving both of them to

8 the hospital.

9 Q. So if I understood you correctly, from your position you went to

10 Babin Kuk, the Tirena Hotel?

11 A. Yes. To the camp where 82-millimetre and 120-millimetre mortars

12 were located.

13 Q. There at Babin Kuk, you picked up some people whom you later drove

14 to the hospital?

15 A. Only one. A member of my unit, and that woman who I believe was a

16 cleaning lady. And by the way she was bleeding, I thought that she was

17 seriously wounded, but I cannot give you any details.

18 Q. To what hospital did you drive them?

19 A. To Medarevo.

20 Q. How far is that hospital from your position, the one where the

21 cannon was in the Ivo Vojnovic street?

22 A. Do you mean when you're driving a car or as the crow flies?

23 Q. Give us the distance in kilometres, not in minutes. From the Ivo

24 Vojnovic street to the Medarevo hospital?

25 A. A kilometre and perhaps 200 metres, 1.2 kilometres.

Page 5316












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Page 5317

1 Q. From your position in Ivo Vojnovic street to Babin Kuk, the Tirena

2 Hotel and that fire position that you were touring?

3 A. 1.5, 1.6 kilometres.

4 Q. And where exactly were you wounded at Babin Kuk?

5 A. At the turnoff from Ivo Vojnovic to Medarevo hospital. That's 50

6 metres before the traffic light.

7 Q. Just tell me, did that happen when you were going there or when

8 you were coming back?

9 A. When I was going there. From my position, from my artillery

10 position to Babin Kuk.

11 Q. So you were hurt, and you picked up those wounded people on the

12 way, and you were going to Babin Kuk?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How did it come about that you were hurt? Could you tell me in

15 more detail?

16 A. As I was driving, I got hurt more by the power of the explosion

17 than any shrapnel or anything. It shattered my windshield, and I was

18 thrown out of the vehicle, literally launched out of it, and landed,

19 crashed, against the garbage bin.

20 Q. If I understand correctly, your windshield was shattered?

21 A. Well, the windshield was shattered, that's what I saw later. But

22 the explosion launched me out of the car, and I crashed against a garbage

23 bin. That's all I know.

24 Q. Did you-- were you thrown out of the vehicle or did you crash

25 together with the vehicle into that garbage bin?

Page 5318

1 A. I was -- I crashed into it.

2 Q. Were you given any medical assistance at the hospital?

3 A. They gave me -- they put a compression bandage on me and gave me

4 some painkillers and told me that I was free to spend the night there if I

5 felt that was necessary. But I left.

6 Q. That compression bandage, where did they put it? Which part of

7 your body?

8 A. That's the thoracic vertebrae, a part of my backbone that turned

9 out to be hurt to prevent excessive movement that could cause even greater

10 damage when I breathe.

11 Q. Was there any bleeding?

12 A. No, sir. Negligible. My temple was hurt, nothing major.

13 Q. On that occasion, were you alone in the car or were there any more

14 people?

15 A. I was alone.

16 Q. How did you manage to drive on after such shock and trauma?

17 A. I don't know if you will understand me when I say this, but those

18 are very extraordinary situations. And even a person like I gets some

19 unusual strength.

20 Q. Can you tell me in terms of time, how long did it all take, your

21 going to Babin Kuk, the explosion, the wound, going to the hospital, the

22 medical assistance you received?

23 A. I don't think it took more than 40 minutes all in all because I

24 didn't put those people in the car myself. I wasn't physically able to.

25 Other people helped me.

Page 5319

1 Q. So this conflict that I asked you about in relation to the street

2 of Ivo Vojnovic, you heard about it, but you yourself were not present.

3 You were not nearby.

4 A. In the evening when the gunfire stopped, as it was getting dark,

5 when I came to headquarters, I heard people talking and saying "why was

6 this gunfire necessary?" So I was in pain, and I really didn't feel like

7 listening to any squabbles. I don't know if this answer is satisfactory.

8 Q. Did you hear perhaps that on that occasion fire was opened from

9 infantry weapons and that grenades were thrown at the MUP patrol? Was

10 that mentioned?

11 A. No, I'm not aware of any such details.

12 Q. Tell me, do you know, you yourself, or did you hear about any

13 clashes in the town of Dubrovnik itself in which the members of the HOS

14 took part?

15 A. I never even saw them. But I only know, as I've already told you,

16 that there were supposed to be about ten of them up at Srdj. But as for a

17 town, I don't know.

18 Q. I'm going to ask you about a particular term, if I could tell me.

19 What is "flak"?

20 A. It's not a weapon I used. It could be used by anti-aircraft

21 defence. But I can't really go into details. I'm not an expert in this

22 field.

23 Q. Did you hear the expression "flak" for an anti-aircraft gun or

24 cannon?

25 A. I heard of its use, but it could be used in infantry as well.

Page 5320

1 Q. It's that particular weapon, isn't it?

2 A. Well, I heard the expression "they fired with a flak" or something

3 like that. Sir, may I just add one more thing by way of clarification.

4 Perhaps sometimes you will be surprised by my answers but I'm not a

5 professional soldier. I do not have any special fondness for weapons.

6 What I did and what I did in the former Yugoslavia, the fact that I

7 defended this town, as I would have defended the former Yugoslavia where I

8 was born. I would have defended it with all my heart. I'm referring to

9 the former Yugoslavia now. That's how I did this, too. But I repeat: I

10 have no special fondness for arms. And after all these years, in response

11 to your questions that are very fair, I want to answer everything I can,

12 everything I know, and I forget these details about weapons faster than I

13 forget details about people. Do you understand this? Can you appreciate

14 this?

15 Q. I fully appreciate this. But please understand me, too. I have

16 to put many questions that have to do with professional activity, too,

17 since you were such positions. I simply have to ask you these questions.

18 A. Please go ahead, sir. Please go ahead.

19 Q. Tell me, the point for mobile weapons, the 20-millimetre

20 anti-aircraft gun, the single-barrelled gun, the so-called Erlikon, was it

21 above the Excelsior Hotel?

22 A. As far as I know, it was in the Gruz harbour, the Lapad Hotel,

23 that area approximately. Now, whether they moved it from there is

24 something I don't know.

25 Q. You don't know perhaps whether this vehicle and weapon was partly

Page 5321

1 hidden in the garage of the Excelsior Hotel?

2 A. Possibly, possibly. Because it is a heavy-duty garage, so perhaps

3 it could be there, yes.

4 Q. Did you hear this Erlikon single-barrel gun expression? Did you

5 ever hear of this as an expression?

6 A. I heard of it as an expression, but I wasn't really interested in

7 hearing more about this weapon. But yes, the word itself, Erlikon, yes,

8 it was heard often.

9 Q. Tell me, on the walls of the Old Town, was there an anti-aircraft

10 gun, 20-millimetre, single barrelled?

11 A. As far as I know, no weapons of the larger calibre, at least, were

12 ever put in the Old Town. I said during the first day when the lady was

13 putting her questions to me, I cannot say that there were only hunting

14 guns there, that people who escaped from Konavle and Zupa Dubrovacka

15 brought their hunting guns and pistols, things like that. That I know for

16 sure.

17 Q. No, but I'm asking you something else, not about within the Old

18 Town, but I'm asking but the fort, the ramparts, the walls of the Old

19 Town. Do you know whether there was ever a cannon positioned there?

20 A. As far as I know, no. Because the explicit order issued to all

21 commanders was to convey to the soldiers not only for them to remain

22 within the Old Town, but that at all costs they should avoid being even

23 close to it. So that possibly by targeting a military objective, the Old

24 Town would be hit. This was avoided at all costs, and every effort was

25 made.

Page 5322












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Page 5323

1 Q. Tell me, in the Bay of Lapad, was there an anti-aircraft gun with

2 a single barrel, 20 millimetres, but a mobile one?

3 A. As I've already said to you, I know the region approximately.

4 It's also Lapad. What you're asking me about now and what I said to you a

5 few minutes ago, around the Lapad Hotel. So it does face Gruz.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, if I may, there are a couple of

7 corrections to the transcript. At page 20, line 8, because the explicit

8 order issued to all commanders was to convoy to the soldiers, not only for

9 them to remain within the Old Town, but that at all costs they should

10 avoid being even close to it. I wonder whether the witness said "not to

11 remain within the Old Town." That is one, Your Honour.

12 And further up, line 1 of page 20, "I said during the first day

13 when the lady was putting her questions to me, I cannot say that there

14 were only hunting guns there." I wonder whether the witness meant to say

15 "I can say that there were only hunting guns" because that was the

16 evidence in chief. Perhaps my learned friend could clarify this.

17 JUDGE PARKER: What you are doing at the moment as I discern it is

18 attempting to correct the evidence that was given in both situations.

19 You're not suggesting that what is recorded is different from what was

20 actually said.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I was not sure, Your Honour. That's why

22 perhaps I wanted to bring to Your Honour --

23 JUDGE PARKER: I don't notice either of these as not being what

24 was put in the English translation.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I could always have this corrected in

Page 5324

1 cross-examination, perhaps, unless my learned friend wants to clarify.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Rodic.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Tell me, Mr. Negodic, at Babin Kuk, at the entrance, was there a

5 mobile anti-aircraft gun with three barrels, 20 millimetres?

6 A. Mobile, three-barrelled gun? I've already said during the

7 previous examination that in my opinion that would be in the area of

8 Orsan, but that is the area towards Babin Kuk. I mean, that's what I

9 mean. I don't know whether 100 metres here or there makes a difference as

10 far as you're concerned.

11 Q. Tell me, the stationary, three-barrel, 20-millimetre cannon, was

12 it by the Neptune Hotel?

13 A. I think, as far as I know. I mean, I only know about the

14 three-barrelled gun that I talked about just now. Perhaps it was marked

15 on some maps before, and then perhaps it was placed on a vehicle later.

16 But whether that actually happened or not, I don't know.

17 Q. Tell me, the commanders of the anti-aircraft defence, were they

18 Vuletic, Kraljevic, Jejina, and others?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I would like to ask the usher to show the witness D35 and D36,

21 please. Defence Exhibits D35 and D36.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I think there is a confusion in the record.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] 35 and 36. These two pictures that

24 the usher has are fine. I think that that is 35 and 36.

25 Q. Mr. Negodic, tell me, what do you see on this photograph?

Page 5325

1 A. This could be the three-barrel gun, yes. But sir, I don't know

2 what this means, in town, "U Gradu."

3 Q. I didn't ask you about the caption. I'm interested in hearing

4 what you have to say as an artillery man in terms of what is here.

5 A. Yes, it could be a three-barrel gun.

6 Q. Is it a 20-millimetre anti-aircraft gun, the three-barrelled one?

7 A. Yes, it can be used as an anti-aircraft weapon. But it can also

8 be used as an anti-personnel gun. But I see that you keep putting these

9 questions to me as an expert person, but I already told you that it was my

10 VES. I know perhaps 5 per cent more than you do about these things, but

11 our knowledge about this is more or less the same.

12 Q. Let's be quite clear. Please don't mind?

13 A. I don't mind.

14 Q. Of course this is not an examination, but I'm just asking about

15 what you know --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please speak one at a time.

17 JUDGE PARKER: We had an interlude then when it was impossible for

18 the interpreters to follow because you were both speaking at once. If you

19 could remember that. And could I note that there seems to be a technical

20 problem because what is displayed on the screens is hardly recognisable at

21 the moment.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I do apologise for

23 speaking so fast. And you are right, the light seems to be wrong, and the

24 barrels cannot be seen. But I think that on the photograph itself, the

25 witness can see it clearly.

Page 5326

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it can be seen, the second

2 barrel can be seen. And then I may infer that it is what we said.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Could you please look at the second photograph now. Do you know

5 what is on this picture? Are you familiar with it? It is the cab of a

6 truck. Have you ever seen this in Dubrovnik?

7 A. Yes, I saw this. Kobra it says in the front. And people told

8 jokes about the man who was the driver. But I don't know anything else

9 that I can tell you about it.

10 Q. So it is not being contested that -- we don't need the pictures

11 any longer, Mr. Usher. Thank you.

12 So mobile cannon, it was positioned on a truck as can be seen on

13 these photographs, and it was not linked to a particular position in the

14 town of Dubrovnik.

15 A. Yes, it can be put that way.

16 Q. It is also correct that as for operations and as for the

17 deployment of these anti-aircraft guns, mobile and stationary ones, at

18 that time this was decided upon by the commanders of the anti-aircraft

19 defence. Is that right?

20 A. Of course that's right, but with the approval of

21 General Marinovic, of course.

22 Q. Thank you. A few minutes ago, when I asked you about an HOS unit,

23 you say that you knew that they were only at Srdj, a certain number of HOS

24 members. But did you perhaps hear that HOS units came from Split, Omis

25 [phoen], Markarska, Imotski, and other places?

Page 5327

1 A. Sir, I don't know anything about that. I don't even know where

2 this group, these ten-odd men came from. I never saw them either. I just

3 know that people talked about it, that they were up there.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, I have an objection, Your Honour.

5 Previously, the witness recognised the picture that was a truck, but

6 however my learned friend went on to say from there that "it is not being

7 contested that mobile cannon... It was positioned on a truck as can be

8 seen on these photographs, and it was not linked to a particular position

9 in the town of Dubrovnik." That's not what the witness said. The witness

10 identified the truck and said that people used to make jokes about the

11 driver. There was no issue about a cannon being placed on the truck.

12 JUDGE PARKER: I think that's correct. Yes.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Negodic, let's clarify this. On the photograph that you saw,

15 is the anti-aircraft gun on the truck?

16 A. I said that I think that it is a three-barrelled gun on the truck,

17 the one that was an Orsan. As for other vehicles and other weapons, I

18 don't know anything about that.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. This is the area of Lapad.

21 Q. All right, but it doesn't matter now, and it's not in relation to

22 this photograph. While you were in Dubrovnik on the 1st of October 1991

23 until the 31st of October 1991, did you ever see a three-barrelled gun

24 mounted on a truck?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5328












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Page 5329

1 Q. Considering that you were chief of artillery in the command of the

2 defence of Dubrovnik, considering that you had your own purview, you had

3 under you personnel and equipment that you were supposed to take care of,

4 were you informed in detail and were you aware of all that was going on

5 during combat operations from Dubrovnik? Meaning when Croatian forces

6 were opening fire against JNA positions?

7 A. As far as my artillery was concerned, I know what assignments they

8 had been given and what they are supposed to shoot at. As far as other

9 units are concerned, I had no time to take an interest in the orders they

10 were given and their assignments.

11 Q. Tell me, did it ever happen that the orders given concerning

12 combat operations were not obeyed?

13 A. It never happened as far as the artillery's concerned.

14 Q. And how about the other units?

15 A. I cannot give you any answer to that because I do not know enough

16 to be able to discuss this subject at all.

17 Q. Does that mean that discipline among artillery troops under you

18 was very high?

19 A. Well, I could not quite call it discipline. However, since I was

20 with them at all times, they did respect and obey my orders.

21 Q. Responding to a question from the Trial Chamber, you said that the

22 Croatian Army on the 6th of December numbered between 400 to 450 troops,

23 not counting the police.

24 A. I don't know for sure, but I said that this number, 450, could

25 correspond to reality as far as I know. There could have been some more

Page 5330

1 or slightly less. But that's my assumption of their number.

2 Q. Tell me, reading from Exhibit P160, and that is the map which has

3 a typewritten diagram of organisational and establishment scheme of the

4 Dubrovnik sector, it says "58 commanders and commanding officers, 22 NCOs,

5 1.060 soldiers, a total of 1.149 on the 3rd of December"?

6 A. I cannot answer this really. I would say if you had asked me

7 based on this document that it was around 1100. However, you mentioned

8 the detachment of armed vessels, and if we counted that maybe we could

9 arrive at your number. But not otherwise.

10 Q. I'm asking you because this was approved by the command of the

11 Dubrovnik defence and the commander, Nojko Marinovic, I suppose. They had

12 exact numbers of their troops as of the 3rd of December, as written here,

13 and that number is 1.149 total. And I'm asking you this because the

14 difference between that number and the one you gave us is great.

15 A. I told you it was only my opinion. However, while we are dealing

16 with this map, sir, it doesn't matter at all how you got hold of that map

17 and who gave it to you. But I've already stated that my firing positions

18 are not precisely indicated on that map dated 3rd December 1991.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, perhaps if my learned friend is

20 going to continue questioning the witness on those numbers, perhaps the

21 witness can be given the map to examine and respond appropriately.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I think that would be sensible.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, may

24 we have map P160 to show to the witness.

25 Q. Sir, Mr. Negodic, we were talking about the right top corner of

Page 5331

1 the map, indicating the organisational and establishment structure of the

2 Dubrovnik sector, including commands and all the military units included

3 in the defence of Dubrovnik. Do you see below that the total number,

4 officers 58; NCOs, 22; soldiers, 1.069. Do you see the total number,

5 1.149?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you see in the right-hand top corner it says "as of 3rd

8 December 1991"?

9 A. Yes, I can see that. But I'm telling you again that this

10 deployment of artillery is not the reality -- does not correspond to the

11 reality as it was on the 3rd of December 1991. That's only --

12 Q. But please, would you comment on the numbers.

13 A. I told you before that when I indicated certain numbers, it was

14 only my opinion.

15 Q. But tell me, when you are saying that the positions indicated on

16 the map do not reflect the reality.

17 A. I mean that this is not the deployment as it was at the time.

18 Q. Tell me, did you provide this map to the Prosecution?

19 A. Certainly not. I have no idea how these maps ended up here.

20 Q. Did you used to see a map like this in the headquarters of the

21 Dubrovnik command?

22 A. No. Certainly not with this legend, because it must have been

23 used at the level of commanders of the town defence. Certainly not at the

24 level of unit commander. Unit commanders would only have been able to

25 indicate numbers of their own troops and deployment of their own

Page 5332

1 equipment.

2 Q. Would you say the same about that other map indicating thrusts of

3 action with those little squares?

4 A. Well, the deployment in that case also does not reflect the

5 reality in the period around the 6th of December, the one that the lady

6 wanted me to put little arrows on.

7 Q. So you don't know the origins of that map?

8 A. No. I don't know who could have provided them and who could have

9 brought them here, if you understand what I mean.

10 If you allow me to add one more thing, in my opinion these maps

11 could only have come from a military archive. Now, who would have had the

12 license to take them out and provide them and bring them here is something

13 I don't know.

14 Q. Concerning that period when you were chief of artillery, did you

15 draw the deployment of your troops and the position of your weapons

16 regularly on your own maps in that period, October, November, December?

17 A. You're asking me about the drawing of the maps. That was left to

18 operative workers. And I used maps to show the troops' different

19 locations and targets, and when I was talking to the commander of the

20 defence.

21 Q. I understand what you said about operative workers and the drawing

22 of the maps. But I would like to know strictly in the professional

23 sense: When operative workers drew some maps that concerned strictly the

24 artillery, did you keep such maps as chief of artillery?

25 A. Yes. I had maps in front of me in the place where I was sitting

Page 5333

1 indicating combat positions and the target sectors, and that was the map

2 intended for the chief of artillery. Similar maps were given to the head

3 of engineering and the commander of anti-aircraft defence.

4 Q. In that period, October, November, December, you had such maps

5 with you indicating the positions of artillery pieces you had under your

6 command?

7 A. Yes, but the real attack against Dubrovnik had not started at that

8 time. Those maps dealt with the area of Konavle in the month of October.

9 Q. But was an overview of combat positions done also for the

10 subsequent months, November, December?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I have to remind you and myself that we have to pay attention and

13 make pauses between questions and answers because of interpreters. I will

14 do my best on my part.

15 Can you tell me, until what time did you stay in the Croatian

16 Army?

17 A. Until the beginning of 1996, end January 1996.

18 Q. If I'm not mistaken, in August 1991, you joined with the rank of

19 reserve captain first class?

20 A. Correct. That is the rank when I joined in middle of August 1991.

21 Q. And by 1996, you only earned the rank of major?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Isn't it a bit unusual since you were chief of artillery, after

24 all?

25 A. It is a bit unusual to you and even to my compatriots, not less

Page 5334












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Page 5335

1 that I got retired as a civilian. I don't know if this is a satisfactory

2 answer.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said: "Civilian disability

4 pension."

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. And now, you are registered as a retired major in reserve. Is

7 that the way it's regulated?

8 A. No. Only a month after I was pensioned off and received civilian

9 disability pension, I was erased from the records as reserve officer at

10 the disposal of the Croatian state, and I am now in archives, which means

11 that I have no liability towards the military department.

12 Q. So you were not a professional military man?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. Tell me please, Mate Sarlija, also known as Daidza, was he

15 superior to Nojko Marinovic in the military hierarchy?

16 A. I don't think so. I think that they were on the same level with

17 the proviso that Mate Daidza Sarlija covered the area from Metkovici

18 towards Stane, and I don't know which area was covered by the other

19 person. I don't know what rank he had.

20 Q. Before you came to testify here, did you have opportunity to see

21 any JNA maps entered into evidence indicating JNA positions and positions

22 of the Croatian Army in October-December 1991? Did anyone show you such

23 maps?

24 A. What do you mean? Do you mean the maps we just looked at?

25 Q. Yes, similar maps, but belonging to the other side, JNA.

Page 5336

1 A. No.

2 Q. Are you maybe aware of the report of the artillery expert Jusuf

3 Voje [phoen] concerning artillery activities in Dubrovnik in November?

4 A. That name tells me nothing.

5 Q. Tell me, did your mortars fire always from the same positions?

6 A. There was only one day when two mortars were placed on one firing

7 position and returned again on the same day to their original position. I

8 do not know the exact date.

9 Q. Could you clarify, what was this all about?

10 A. That happened in the first half of November. The target was the

11 territory between Zarkovica and Bosanka, fired from the Bogosica Park

12 firing position. Later, orders were given to them to return to the

13 original firing position which was the SDK building. As far as all the

14 rest is concerned, all the other firing positions were fixed positions,

15 apart from the position of Maljutka, which had a basic and a backup

16 position. And the same goes for the recoilless cannon. But all the other

17 guns had fixed positions because we could not allow our troops to be

18 killed needlessly because we had both natural and manmade protections. We

19 had small reinforced concrete booths and gun enplacements.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, Mr. Rodic?

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: We'll have a break now.

23 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

Page 5337

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Negodic, can you tell me whether you know what wandering

3 mortars are?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.

5 A. We never used that expression, and I wouldn't be able to explain.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Tell me, during the firing, did you change the positions of

8 mortars?

9 A. As I've already stated, once in the first half of November, from

10 the combat position of -- I mean, there are two or three names. It's

11 Dubrovkinja or SDK. On the combat positions between Zarkovica and

12 Bosanka, these two mortars were returned to their basic combat position.

13 That's the only thing I know. As for mortars, they were only at their

14 stationary, fixed positions.

15 Q. So in the period of October, November, and December, it was only

16 once that the position of the mortar was changed; namely, when from the

17 position of the SDK of Dubrovkinja, two mortars were transferred to

18 Bogosica Park and immediately after that they were returned to the initial

19 position at the SDK. Am I right?

20 A. Yes, that's right, sir.

21 Q. You said that you did not know the exact day, the exact date, but

22 that that was the only relocation that took place between the 8th and 13th

23 of November 1991. Is that right?

24 A. Yes, that's right, sir.

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to show

Page 5338

1 the witness Defence Exhibit D28 and D37.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Negodic, can you recognise the area, the weapon, or perhaps

5 even the person in this picture?

6 A. I recognise the person, and it may be that combat position, too.

7 You heard my answer a few minutes ago. I said in the first half of the

8 month of November, but I think that it was between the 8th and the 13th.

9 So you should take that into account, that I think it was between the 8th

10 and the 13th. But I see that you have the 4th written over here. I did

11 not say that it was certainly between the 8th and the 13th. Are you

12 following me? But I did say that it was in the first half of November.

13 I think that this is that combat position. And the man is Zoran

14 Primic.

15 Q. I heard you, and it is correct that you said in the first half of

16 the month of November that the mortar moved to Bogosica Park. But in

17 response to my learned friend's question you said that this only

18 relocation took place in the period between the 8th and 13th of November,

19 but you did not know exactly which day?

20 A. I do not know exactly which day, but I assume it was between the

21 8th and the 13th when there was quite a bit of firing at Dubrovnik. And

22 that's how I said that it was between the 8th and the 13th and now it

23 turned out to be the 4th.

24 Q. Even if you did not see this picture --

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, I object to this line of

Page 5339

1 questioning. The witness is being shown two photographs which bear the

2 date 4/11, and the year is not even clearly indicated here. Of course,

3 they have been tendered as Defence exhibits. I do not know whether they

4 have been marked for identification or through which witnesses. I do not

5 think that it's fair by this witness to ask to respond to -- on these

6 photographs in this manner, with regard to the date.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think there is substance in that objection,

8 Ms. Mahindaratne. But I think what is important for both Mr. Negodic is

9 for Mr. Rodic is to realise that there is no evidence at the moment that

10 the date 4 November, whatever year, is correct. So that may be a correct

11 date; it may not be a correct date, Mr. Negodic. We do not know. That

12 just happens to be the date on this document which the Defence has put

13 before us.

14 So don't assume it is correct. It may be correct. We don't

15 know. I think that is the position at the moment, is it not, Mr. Rodic?

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would just like

17 to point out that although these are Defence exhibits, these photographs,

18 but these photographs were only taken from the film that the Prosecution

19 introduced as P66. And the film shows what happened in Dubrovnik in

20 October, November, December 1991. I shall go on now.

21 JUDGE PARKER: The position, though, that we have no verification

22 of the date depicted here of 4 November as being correct at the present

23 time. What you just observed is why I suggested that the submission put

24 against you was not well founded. That was the first thing I said when

25 Ms. Mahindaratne objected. I then went on, though, to point out that at

Page 5340












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13 English transcripts.













Page 5341

1 the moment we have nothing to verify this particular date.

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I shall go

3 on.

4 Q. Mr. Negodic, the man in the photograph in Bogosica Park, you said

5 that it was Zoran Primic. Isn't that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell me whether you know whether there was any firing from

8 this position in Bogosica Park in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996?

9 A. No, sir, no.

10 Q. Thank you. Zoran Primic is in civilian clothes, I gather, in this

11 photograph?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What about the rest? Most of the members of the artillery, were

14 they dressed in the same way?

15 A. Yes, in that period. Maybe you did notice that he has a Motorola

16 radio transmitter on his left hip.

17 Q. Tell me, what about the other months, apart from November 1991?

18 Was there any firing from the position in Bogosica Park?

19 A. No, sir. I've already said that, that it was only once that any

20 firing took place from that position.

21 Q. Can you tell me, then, did you give a statement to the

22 investigators of the Tribunal on the 12th and 13th of December 2003? The

23 investigators being Richard Philips and Azim Arshad?

24 A. I don't know their names, but that should be the statement.

25 Q. When you told me what you knew about these events and when you

Page 5342

1 told them, did you read this and then check it out and sign it?

2 A. Yes, it was read out to me. But it was told to me -- or rather, I

3 was told that some corrections could be made. And even if there are still

4 mistakes in the text, when I come here, that I could correct some of the

5 mistakes that were still there.

6 Q. I'm going to read paragraph 22 from your statement where it says

7 "there was insufficient space to form a battery, which would also be at

8 risk to counterbattery fire. We could not afford to lose a lot of troops

9 in one attack." Do you remember that part of your statement?

10 A. Well, roughly, approximately.

11 Q. I read it out exactly, word for word.

12 A. You read it well. But this type of statement that I was making

13 refers to the period before the engineering people started building the

14 reinforced concrete huts. If we're talking about a park that is not a

15 natural shelter, then that would mean sacrificing one's personnel. That

16 is why two mortars were placed by the SDK building, because it is a

17 concrete building. Next door to it is an old stone building where

18 ammunition was kept. The wall is about 70 centimetres thick, and that's

19 where it was kept. And they sought shelter in the atomic shelter when

20 there was no firing.

21 Q. All right. Tell me, when did -- the engineering people started

22 building shelters for your artillery pieces?

23 A. I cannot give you the exact date. But it could be approximately

24 the beginning of the month of November.

25 Q. Tell me, please, when you fired shells from your mortars, did you

Page 5343

1 expect return fire?

2 A. All indicators seemed to show that return fire was to be expected.

3 However, these sheltered positions, mortar positions that we just

4 discussed, were covered from view, from all sides. You could control the

5 flying and the landing of the shell. There was an JNA observation post at

6 Zarkovica. When we fired a gun, they could see us as well as we could see

7 them. And in the entire period, October, November, it never happened that

8 the shell -- that a shell fell in the perimeter of 500 metres from us. An

9 observer could very easily control the attack.

10 Q. I'm now interested in the mortar.

11 A. Its firing position was in the old arsenal, in the old barracks

12 which was taken over later by the trade enterprise Dubrovkinja. They

13 built the SDK building. And in that space between buildings, mortars were

14 placed.

15 Q. Are you saying that this position from the SDK building, the

16 mortar position was so sheltered that the JNA could not see it?

17 A. Precisely.

18 Q. So even when it was firing, they were unable to locate its

19 position?

20 A. Correct, sir.

21 Q. Tell me, are the pine trees very tall in Bogosica Park?

22 A. Yes, but they are few and far between. They are not densely

23 planted, as you can see on the picture. You cannot have a multitude of

24 targets because the positioning of the pine trees hinders targeting --

25 hinders multiple targets.

Page 5344

1 Q. Would that mean that the pine trees interfere with the trajectory

2 of the missiles?

3 A. Yes. The crown of the trees is in the way.

4 Q. Tell me about the other mortar positions in Dubrovnik in the

5 period of October, November, and December 1991. Were they also fixed, not

6 subject to change?

7 A. Yes, all the rest were fixed positions. This unit that you see in

8 the picture, this man, Primic, was commander of that unit. The unit was

9 divided into two parts. One was placed near the SDK building, and the

10 other east of the Old Town in the park. That position was called Lazaret.

11 That area is sheltered by natural features, and it is very difficult to

12 hit it. It is not visible from the sea, from boats and ships, and it is

13 also invisible from Zarkovica, although it is relatively close.

14 Q. Therefore, if I understood you correctly, the mortars to the east

15 in Lazaret are also sheltered so the JNA cannot see them?

16 A. The Isle of Lokrum is in their way. That isle is in front of

17 Lazaret and Ploca.

18 Q. During that period, October to December 1991, was there a popular

19 term, "Charlie," in Dubrovnik, current in Dubrovnik for a gun placed on

20 top of a truck?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. Have you heard about it?

23 A. No. I know nothing about that. I may not be a professional

24 soldier or an expert, but I cannot fathom a mortar being placed on a

25 truck. It would be lethal for the crew, for the person who was filling

Page 5345

1 the shells, feeding the shells into the mortar.

2 Q. When you say it's dangerous, you probably mean that it's placed on

3 a hard surface?

4 A. Yes, of course.

5 Q. Is it possible to adjust that surface to the needs of the mortar

6 by placing some sandbags?

7 A. Let us suppose that you put sandbags and you fire one shell. With

8 even a minor shift and the move of the barrel, the explosive effect would

9 be great and you would not be able to fire again from the mortar.

10 Q. All right. I've already asked you this. There's just one more

11 thing concerning the situation with mortars.

12 I'll read out to you starting with paragraph 20 of your statement,

13 what you said. "Until the 6th of December 1991, we had two mortars at

14 Bogosica Park in Pile. These were then" --

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, it's not "until the 6th of

16 December 1991," but it says "before 6th December 1991 we had two mortars

17 at Bogosica Park in Pile." And it gives a different meaning when you say

18 "until the 6th of December 1991."

19 JUDGE PARKER: It may or may not be a difference in meaning; it's

20 unclear. But the distinction is there. Mr. Rodic.

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. It says that before or until this date you had two mortars at

23 Bogosica Park in Pile. These were then moved to another position near

24 Dubrovkinja company. These weapons were manned by Primic and Pilas.

25 A. Sir, I don't know how this statement could have been worded in

Page 5346












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Page 5347

1 this way. When you now read this, Bogosica Park, you said in the next

2 breath in Pile. I cannot be wrong about this because I lived in Dubrovnik

3 for 50 years. And I know very well that Bogosica Park is six to seven

4 hundred metres away from Pile. How could I have stated a thing like this?

5 How could I have said that it was in Pile if it's 700 metres as the crow

6 flies?

7 Q. Are you sure about this distance? 600 to 600 [as interpreted]

8 metres as the distance between Bogosica Park and Pile?

9 A. Approximately 600 metres, maybe even more.

10 Q. When you say this, what could be the other two mortars that could

11 have been moved from the Dubrovkinja building or the SDK? Would they be

12 the mortars that had been placed in Bogosica Park at all?

13 A. The firing position near the SDK building and the Lazaret Park

14 belonged to the same unit. Those two mortars that fired in the beginning

15 of November are the same two mortars whose basic firing position was at

16 the SDK building.

17 Q. If you say that this is a mistake to say that the location was in

18 Pile, let us disregard that. What are the two mortars, or rather what is

19 the position of the two mortars that were moved around the 6th of December

20 to a position near Dubrovkinja company? Were these mortars from the

21 Lazaret position or from the Bogosica Park?

22 A. Since so many questions seem to revolve around Bogosica Park,

23 maybe that answer was worded in such a way that it is still clear to me

24 what I meant, but you may view it differently from your perspective. I'm

25 repeating again: Bogosica Park is a firing position that was used only

Page 5348

1 once. How it was translated, I don't know. Maybe it lends itself to

2 various interpretations. But I'm telling you that fire was opened only

3 once from Bogosica Park. All the rest of the time these mortars were near

4 the Dubrovkinja building or the SDK position.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, I have another objection that is

6 with regard to counsel's question. My learned friend has interpreted

7 paragraph 20 of the statement and goes on to say "what are the two mortars

8 or rather what is the position of the two mortars that were moved around

9 the 6th of December to the position of Dubrovkinja company?" No, there

10 was no reference at all that the position was moved around the 6th. In

11 the statement, it says before the 6th of December, there was a position in

12 Bogosica Park.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I have no quarrel with the situation

15 because I read the statement. It's not an issue whether it was before or

16 on the 6th of December.

17 Q. The only thing that is in issue is do you mean that these mortars

18 were shifted from Bogosica Park only once, on that day when they were

19 fired from? Did you mean to say that they were then moved to the SDK

20 building?

21 A. That's what I said. They were taken from the firing position near

22 the SDK, brought to the Bogosica Park, and then returned to their basic

23 firing position, that is, the building next to the SDK. Those are two and

24 the same mortars.

25 Q. You said that those mortars were under the command of Zoran

Page 5349

1 Primic.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did Zoran Primic report this to you in the same way regarding the

4 shifting of the position of these two mortars?

5 A. I asked him, because I was not aware of the goings-on on that day.

6 We called him on his Motorola, and he said he felt it was necessary --

7 because he was at the Srdj hill, he felt it was necessary to fire at a

8 target behind. I told him to do that. But then return to his original

9 position. He may have given some clarification later, but you will

10 forgive me if I don't remember it any longer.

11 Q. So you were only informed by Zoran Primic that he had returned

12 these mortars?

13 A. Yes. I asked him for a report, how much ammunition was spent, and

14 how much was left at the firing position because we couldn't afford to

15 spend so much.

16 Q. What period are you talking about?

17 A. The lack or the shortage of ammunition was constant.

18 Q. And the same is true of cannons? They were not shifted from their

19 positions in the period October through December 1991?

20 A. Speaking of firing positions that we placed under the bridge like

21 this ZIS cannon, it's main purpose was to face the Srdj fortress and

22 Zarkovica. And there was no need to move towards another direction which

23 would be less efficient.

24 Q. All right. Tell me, during firing missions, do you have a visual

25 overview of all the artillery pieces under your command, all the pieces

Page 5350

1 that you're in charge of as chief of artillery?

2 A. Well, for instance, from that firing position on the -- from that

3 position I was on, on the 6th of December, I cannot see my own firing

4 position. However, when orders are given to fire a, let's say,

5 120-millimetre shell I can see from my firing position the landing of that

6 shell. Whether it is left of the Srdj hill, whether it hit the Srdj hill,

7 or whether it hit on the right so that I'm able to correct it. But from

8 my firing post overlooking the cannon itself, I cannot see the other

9 firing positions.

10 Q. You mean the other combat positions of your weapons, your

11 artillery pieces are not visible?

12 A. No, they're not.

13 Q. If you're following the action of your own artillery, if you're

14 looking at JNA positions to see where your shells from your side are

15 landing, based on what you see from observing the fire, are you able to

16 discern the exact location of your artillery pieces? Can you tell where

17 they're firing from?

18 A. When a 120-millimetre shell is fired from the area of auto kamp

19 in Lapad, no fire was opened from the 82-millimetre position which we

20 called the ex-barracks. For instance, when I give orders for this shell

21 to be fired, I can follow it. It targeted mainly a position around the

22 Srdj hill, and I can see it with the naked eye, without binoculars, I can

23 see where it lands. Because we are targeting an area; we are not

24 targeting a specific, fixed object. It doesn't really matter exactly

25 where it fell, 50 metres into the depth or 50 metres forward. What

Page 5351

1 matters is that it hits the area around the Srdj fortress.

2 Q. That's not quite what I asked. During firing missions, do you

3 have a visual overview of your own artillery pieces? And I further asked,

4 from observing the fire of your own artillery and from looking where the

5 shells land, near JNA positions, can you tell that the position of your

6 own artillery pieces had not moved, either by 50 or 100 metres?

7 A. I can say that the question is not really very clear. However, a

8 commander at a firing or combat position knows my location, where I am as

9 an observer, one who is going to guide his fire. When I say 200 to the

10 right, it doesn't mean that it's his 200 to the right. That is why he has

11 someone who is doing the calculation for him, or rather who is going to

12 plot on the map what my order meant. 200 to the right, it is further from

13 him. Do you understand what I'm saying? And it is not necessary for us

14 to have visual contact, the observer and the combat position, that is.

15 Q. Everything I asked you in relation to visual contact is precisely

16 with a view to seeing whether you could see during the actual operations

17 whether one of your weapons moved from one combat position to another.

18 That was the point; that was what I was driving at.

19 A. I've already answered, that there is no reason whatsoever for us

20 to move anything, say, on the 6th of December. For example, a

21 well-fortified position of an individual mortar, and the ammunition that

22 was placed in huts, why would we drag all of that elsewhere? And we would

23 not have gained anything. We are not firing at full range. If we have

24 120-millimetre weapons, half of the range is good enough for us, for our

25 objectives.

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Page 5353

1 Q. You say that you say no reason, but that is your assumption. Now,

2 I'm asking you, what if the JNA had located the position of your weapons

3 and if they are counterfiring now. Would your people stay in the same

4 position or would they move their weapon elsewhere?

5 A. In the best case, they would move into the shelter, the concrete

6 shelter, the huts. However, I have already stated several times, and I

7 claim that from the JNA combat positions, objectives were not targeted by

8 way of artillery. It is only an area that was targeted. It wasn't one

9 army fight the against another. If it were the way you're putting your

10 questions, sir, I've already told you an observer from Zarkovica sees the

11 cannon position of the cannon that is targeting him just as he is directly

12 targeting the position of Zarkovica.

13 The point -- if the point was to target that particular position

14 of the Croatian Army, it would not have been difficult for him to find it.

15 He would have found it very easily, that position.

16 Q. And if a JNA observer would easily find that combat position of

17 yours, would you still stay there, or would you move?

18 A. In such a small area, sir, we have only that one good shelter. We

19 do not have any other place where we could move that weapon. The only

20 thing that would be "ideal" is that particular position. There is not

21 another one.

22 Q. All right. If I have understood what you have been saying, and

23 correct me if I'm wrong, the crews of your mortars and other weapons that

24 were firing at JNA positions were protected from superior artillery fire

25 of the JNA by virtue of the fact that they were in the well-selected,

Page 5354

1 well-fortified positions in Dubrovnik. Is that right? Is that the right

2 answer?

3 A. Almost in all positions, except Babin Kuk, mortars and the

4 Maljutka on the very coastline. The Maljutka has poor natural shelter.

5 And the mortars in the area of the former auto kamp were among the olive

6 trees and pine trees.

7 Q. All right. And what about these mortars from Babin Kuk, were they

8 moved from there?

9 A. No, because that is where their combat position was made, because

10 reinforced concrete huts were placed there. And then big slabs of stone

11 were brought and placed in front of the huts. So a shell that would hit

12 that area would be activated on the stone rather than on the reinforced

13 concrete hut.

14 Q. Tell me, and on the 6th of December did you have any artillery

15 pieces in the area of Sustjepan?

16 A. That's where the infantry part of the 2nd Battalion was. Now,

17 except for a hand-held launcher, whether they had something else, that's

18 something I really don't know.

19 Q. And the 1st Battalion, did it have any mortars within its

20 establishment?

21 A. As far as I know, it is only the artillery that had mortars. The

22 82-millimetre mortar otherwise would not belong to the establishment of

23 the artillery. It is actually a weapon that accompanies the infantry, but

24 the situation was such that it was included in the artillery just like

25 recoilless guns were.

Page 5355

1 Q. All right. So we agree that the artillery forces of the JNA far

2 outnumbered the artillery forces and their weapons of the Croatian side in

3 the period from October to December 1991?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As for the tactics of the Croatian forces, precisely because there

6 were so few artillery weapons, was the impression being created that there

7 were more weapons than there actually were by relocating the existing

8 weapons from one position to another?

9 A. Not as far as the artillery was concerned. But I assume that in

10 the anti-aircraft defence, yes.

11 Q. The anti-aircraft defence.

12 A. Particularly because these were mounted on vehicles, so yes, it is

13 very likely that that would be one of the reasons.

14 Q. Tell me, please, is it correct that 30 per cent of your artillery

15 pieces and mortars did not have any sighting equipment and were not fully

16 effective?

17 A. The artillery pieces were in proper condition, but there weren't

18 enough sights available.

19 Q. As for sighting equipment when you were in a position to do so, of

20 course, depending on the operations, did you take them off and take them

21 from one position to another?

22 A. I don't know what kind of translation you have there, but I think

23 that I said in my statement that once positions were taken in terms of one

24 mortar, that then the sighting equipment would be taken and then it would

25 be moved to another one.

Page 5356

1 Q. I'm going to read paragraph 21 from your statement out to you.

2 You said: "Some weapons did not have sighting equipment."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "So we had sometimes to remove sighting equipment and move it

5 from one position to another."

6 A. This can be understood in two different ways. If I have a unit,

7 for example, like the mortars that we refer to just now in the area of the

8 auto kamp, I don't know how people are going to understand what I'm

9 saying. But from the position of one mortar, when we go to another

10 position of another mortar, then perhaps that could be a different firing

11 position of the entire unit. I don't know whether you're following me.

12 But I meant these firing positions, from one mortar position to another.

13 It can be 15 metres, but it can be understood that it's a firing position

14 on the completely opposite side of town.

15 Q. All right. Tell me, did you have these sights on every firing

16 position?

17 A. Yes, but not enough of them. For example, if there are four

18 mortars and only two pieces of sighting equipment, then we would have to

19 shift them from one to the other.

20 Q. All right. Tell me, then, when you moved sights from one weapon

21 to another, did you rectify them as well?

22 A. The rectification had taken place before that, at least that's

23 what the report said, that the rectification of sighting equipment had

24 taken place and that all the weapons were ready. I did not have time to

25 check that. It was left to the commanders of the units involved.

Page 5357

1 Q. That was precisely my next question. Did you have time and

2 opportunity to do that kind of thing, to check this?

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. Tell me, did you have a trained man on every crew who could

5 actually perform the rectification needed?

6 A. Almost every commander of every unit had completed reserve

7 officers' school for artillery officers, except for Primic. As far as I

8 know, he held no rank in the army, but he -- his conduct was impeccable.

9 We did not have an appropriate replacement, so we just provided a person

10 from the land survey department. And it was very easy for him to master

11 things that another layman would have taken six months to master.

12 Q. Tell me, since you could not in terms of space and time check this

13 out yourself personally - that is to say, the rectification, whether it

14 was performed or not - are you sure then that you had appropriate

15 precision from your weapons?

16 A. Well, sir, this cannot be stated with any degree of certainty.

17 Q. Tell me, what about the direction and elevation of the weapons?

18 And I'm referring to mortars. How did you ascertain that when you did not

19 have the right kind of sighting equipment? And the same goes for cannons

20 because we see that not all cannons had sighting equipment either.

21 A. Yes, sir, but I've already said that with one piece of sighting

22 equipment we would work on one target and calculate it. And then we would

23 use the same sight and put it onto another piece of equipment. That's

24 what I already said. I cannot give any other explanation.

25 Q. What about the elevation? Was it calculated by using a quadrant?

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Page 5359

1 A. I had sufficient trust in the people who had completed reserve

2 officers' schools for these weapons, and there's no need to go in and

3 check on them whether the quality was at proper level. And there wasn't

4 really very much time either.

5 Q. Would you agree with me then that one cannot say that there wasn't

6 any misfiring because there was not enough equipment and not all the

7 weapons were in order?

8 A. Sir, in the army in the time of the former Yugoslavia and hundreds

9 and hundreds of times after that, at meetings and at exercises, even when

10 there were full preparations that had been carried out, there were

11 nevertheless such situations, let alone with this degree of preparation.

12 Even if weapons are brand new, this kind of thing can happen. It would be

13 a lie if I were to say the opposite.

14 Q. Thank you. Tell me, the ammunition that you used, where was it

15 manufactured, especially the ammunition used for mortars?

16 A. I cannot really answer that question. It came from TO storage.

17 As far as I know, we got it from Ploca, Metkovici. As far as I can

18 remember, it was in the warehouses in the reserves of the Territorial

19 Defence headquarters and in their respective areas they had this and

20 probably came from there, and perhaps even from Split. I really can't

21 say.

22 Q. Tell me, did you use mortar shells that were Croatian-made?

23 A. I've already told you that I'm not really in a position to answer

24 your question. This question was not one that was ever raised.

25 Q. But I'm just wondering whether you knew whether there were any

Page 5360

1 Croatian-made mortar shells?

2 A. Well, I cannot remember that. But I do know that Croatia does

3 manufacture mortar shells.

4 Q. Tell me, did you have proper tables for all ammunition and

5 weapons?

6 A. Yes. However for the ZIS cannon, from two firing positions, we

7 did not have sighting equipment. So it would not have worked out that

8 way. We could not have firing tables.

9 Q. Tell me, as far as Croatian-made mortar shells are concerned, did

10 you have appropriate firing tables?

11 A. I've already told you that I'm not sure about the shells. But if

12 there were such shells, then they would have been accompanied by

13 appropriate tables because it makes no sense to fire one kind of shell and

14 not to have those tables, but tables for others.

15 Q. But you're not sure.

16 A. It's been a long time.

17 Q. Do you know perhaps what the precision was of the Croatian-made

18 shells?

19 A. Well, I've already said that. I mean, I don't know whether they

20 were there, so then how can I speak of their precision. One has to do

21 with the other, doesn't it?

22 Q. Can you tell me what targets did you fire at the most on the 6th

23 of December 1991?

24 A. From what firing positions, tell me specifically, or are you

25 asking me overall?

Page 5361

1 Q. I'm asking you what targets did you take on most frequently.

2 A. Srdj and Zarkovica. When I say "Srdj," I mean the fortress of

3 Srdj and the slopes of the Srdj hill.

4 Q. I'm sorry. I moved to another subject before I asked you a

5 question that was supposed to come before. In that period, October

6 through December 1991, did something unusual happen such as a weapon

7 failing to fire because a barrel exploded or the missile got stuck?

8 A. I never received a report to that effect. There were later some

9 stories that some shells, in maybe two or three cases, were not actually

10 fired -- failed to fired. But I don't know whether it was the ignition

11 that failed or something else. I don't know the specific reason for these

12 failures.

13 Q. Tell me, who directed the fire from your artillery pieces?

14 A. If I understood correctly, do you mean who guided the artillery

15 pieces?

16 Q. Answer this first.

17 A. On the 6th of December, I was at a firing position above the

18 artillery piece that was located under the bridge. And from that

19 position, I could see both the Srdj hill and that other place which was

20 called Vidikovac, Zarkovica. So that I was able at close range to tell

21 the man manning the cannon directly what to target. In another case,

22 there was a cannon which only once hit the area around Pobrezje and did

23 not fire any more. I asked them to fire 120-millimetre shell for me to

24 see where it would land, and I would be able to correct the fire. And in

25 another case, I wanted them to fire to the right of the Srdj hill where

Page 5362

1 the ski lift emerges. There was an overshoot after the first fire, and I

2 was quite all right with that as long as it did not land too close.

3 Since that weapon fired an overshoot, it covered the area of an

4 infantry attack from the side of Bosanka village towards the Srdj hill,

5 and that was all right as far as I was concerned.

6 Q. If I understood you correctly, are you saying that on the 6th of

7 December, you were the one calculating the elements of fire?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So who was doing that?

10 A. The person at the firing position.

11 Q. And who did the correction?

12 A. When the first shell was fired, I would see with the naked eye

13 where the shell fell.

14 Q. Sorry to interrupt you. Does that mean that you were in contact

15 with all your artillery crews?

16 A. That was physically impossible. One person could not direct fire

17 from three firing positions. The rocket's laser was given the task to

18 fire at a specific target and there was no need to test it anymore. As

19 far as mortars were concerned, the one at the SDK building was given the

20 task to shoot at the right side of the SDK towards the Srdj hill. And

21 looking at that shot, I thought that there was no more need for me to be

22 in constant contact with them. The same is true of the mortar in the area

23 of auto kamp Lapad.

24 Q. Did somebody on the crew of those mortars direct the fire?

25 A. They fired at this area with brief breaks, and then in Lapad they

Page 5363

1 took over because it was physically impossible to sustain. I absented

2 myself when I was going, as I said, to drive those wounded persons. So

3 the command took it upon themselves for the communication between the Srdj

4 fortress and the command on the one hand and the command and the firing

5 position on the other hand to be sustained. So that people near Srdj were

6 directing fire through the command.

7 Q. Does that mean that Nojko Marinovic was up to snuff and following

8 the situation both in terms of the weapons available and the positions in

9 the direction of fire?

10 A. Yes. Let me just add for the picture to be clearer: You already

11 mentioned that at the beginning you wanted me to confirm certain names of

12 people who were on the command of the defence of the town. You said that

13 one of them, Marinkovic was the head of the defence. I don't know that.

14 But I know that he was a professional officer in the artillery so that in

15 the command we did have a person who was professionally trained for this

16 job.

17 Q. You don't mean Nojko Marinovic, you mean another officer from the

18 headquarters of the command?

19 A. Yes. Maybe they did this job together. But since he was better

20 qualified, then Nojko Marinovic, who was as far as I know an infantry man,

21 although even as an infantry man he might have been familiar enough with

22 82-millimetre mortars because they accompany the infantry.

23 Q. Do you know the name of this man then?

24 A. Mirko Katanic.

25 Q. All right. Do you know specifically on the 6th of December 1991

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Page 5365

1 who was in command of anti-aircraft guns, the three-barrel gun and the

2 single-barrel gun placed on top of trucks that were moving around the town

3 and opening fire from various positions?

4 A. Do you mean commanders who were manning these weapons? Or do you

5 mean who was in charge of the entire air defence of the town?

6 Q. I mean the commanders manning these weapons.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, the question has been asked as to

8 whether the witness knows who was in command of anti-aircraft guns, the

9 three-barrel gun, and the single-barrel gun placed on top of trucks that

10 were moving around the town and opening fire from various positions. That

11 was not the evidence, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE PARKER: That's correct, Mr. Rodic.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is my question. And

14 I'm asking it based on the previous answers I got from this witness.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic, your question is not only asking answers

16 about one matter or some matters, but it's assuming others to be correct

17 that have not been established. It's not established that trucks were

18 moving around the town and opening fire from various positions.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] All right.

20 Q. Mr. Negodic, the mobile weapons that we discussed such as

21 anti-aircraft guns, were they placed on top of trucks? Were they

22 stationary or were they moving around the town?

23 A. Sir, as I stated before, as far as I know, the third-barrel gun,

24 and I spoke about one weapons, not weapons, I said that as far as I know,

25 there was a three-barrel gun placed on top of a vehicle. And I suppose

Page 5366

1 that it was moving around because it did not have an actual target. It is

2 the kind of weapon that has to come out into a clearing in order to be

3 able to fire. Whether they wandered about town or not I really am not

4 able to tell you in any detail.

5 Q. Do you know who was in command of that weapon?

6 A. Are you finished? Can I answer? You already mentioned it. I

7 believe that the one on the three-barrel gun was Jejina, or maybe Vuletic.

8 You mentioned them both.

9 Q. Tell me, were there any anti-aircraft weapons located inside

10 houses and opening fire, targeting Zarkovica?

11 A. You mean an anti-aircraft weapon placed inside a house and opening

12 fire? This is the first I hear of it.

13 Q. Was there any fire of this kind from the tower of St. Ivan?

14 A. Sir, from all I know, and I've stated this a number of times in

15 response to your questions and those of the Prosecutor, on the fortresses

16 and inside the town, there were no anti-aircraft or artillery weapons at

17 all.

18 Q. I have to ask you this again: On the tower of St. Luka, was there

19 a gun, 52 millimetres, single barrel? Tell me yes or no.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Tell me, along the ramparts of the Old Town, close to the walls,

22 near the Pile gates, were there 82-millimetre mortars opening fire from

23 this location and using the walls as a cover, as a shelter?

24 A. No.

25 Q. In the period October through December 1991, did mortars ever open

Page 5367

1 fire from these positions?

2 A. There were never any firing position from mortars in that place.

3 The nearest position in the Old Town is the position I mentioned before,

4 and that is the Lazaret.

5 Q. Did it ever happen in the southern tower near the bell that a

6 mortar was placed?

7 A. Yes [as interpreted].

8 Q. At the southern tower, was there an artillery position?

9 THE INTERPRETER: This is a mistake by the interpreter. The

10 previous answer of the witness was no.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour --

12 JUDGE PARKER: Have you picked that up, Mr. Rodic? There has been

13 a correction in the interpretation.

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: The answer at 57:19 is "yes." The interpreter

16 tells us that is a mistake, and the answer given was no.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] All right. Let me move on.

18 Q. From the area of the fish shop in the Old Town, was there an

19 anti-aircraft machine-gun active, 7.7 -- 12.7 millimetres calibre?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Was there a truck carrying mortar active along the JNA street up

22 to Oburtska [phoen] Street?

23 A. No, sir.

24 Q. You said that from the first of October to the 31st October 1991,

25 you were only once in the Old Town?

Page 5368

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You said it was on the 6th of December 1991 in the evening?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell me, how, based on what do you claim that there were

5 no artillery weapons or fire opened from the Old Town or in the vicinity?

6 Based on what information?

7 A. Well, every commander or chief was responsible for his troops.

8 And I was with them every day. And I suppose I know enough about their

9 movements. I did not go down into the town because if I had gone, then

10 the troops would have followed me. I suppose I know best where my

11 artillery weapons are, at which firing position, what they're targeting,

12 and how.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Prosecutor's

14 Exhibit P160.

15 Q. Will you please look again at the top right-hand corner of that

16 map, this organisational and establishment diagram of the structure of the

17 defence of Dubrovnik.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you go from the first little block down the whole way, do you

20 see a little block where it says "MAV 76 and 82" when you follow the line

21 in the middle?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Can you tell me what that is supposed to mean, this acronym, MAV,

24 M-A-V, 76 and 82?

25 A. I would very much like to help you, but I can't remember.

Page 5369

1 Q. Can you tell me what this abbreviation or acronym means in the

2 little hut, in the little block below, says "DST 82, V-3"?

3 A. I believe that is a recoilless cannon.

4 Q. When you look to left of these little blocks, these -- do you see

5 the scheme of the 1st Battalion?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you see, for instance, in the fourth and the fifth little

8 blocks from the top in the scheme of the 1st Battalion, mortars 120 and 82

9 millimetres?

10 A. Yes, I can see that. That's why I asked you. Sir, who could have

11 given you this? Because as the map does not reflect the reality, neither

12 does this diagram because there was no infantry battalion that had an

13 82-millimetre gun, whereas I, in my artillery unit, was short of them.

14 Q. Is it the case that there were mortars under the command of the

15 1st Battalion, according to this scheme, this diagram?

16 A. Yes, if you believe this scheme you would have to believe that

17 they had 120-millimetre and 82-millimetre mortars.

18 Q. In the composition of the 1st Battalion, is it true, then, that

19 according to this diagram within your competence you would have

20 detachment -- these recoilless cannons, this last little block, 76 and 82

21 millimetres, and the Maljutka, and you have on the upper left-hand side

22 next to the first box, next to the command, you have 128. And I think

23 that is a single-barrel rocket launcher.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So would this then be -- would these then be the weapons under

Page 5370

1 your competence?

2 A. The rocket launcher and --

3 Q. According to this diagram.

4 A. Yes, according to the diagram, that would be it.

5 Q. What about these cannons and the Maljutka and the rocket launcher,

6 would they belong to you according to this diagram?

7 A. Yes, that's how the diagram was made up, and the rocket launchers

8 come under the 1st Battalion. That's where they're -- it says that.

9 Q. Now, look at the middle, please, the central part of what we have

10 stuck to the map here. And on the left it says "authorised by

11 Colonel Mirko Katanic," and he is precisely the officer you said was a

12 professional and well versed in the artillery?

13 A. Yes, that's right. In the left-hand corner in the middle of the

14 page.

15 Q. Thank you. Now I want to ask you something else. When during the

16 examination-in-chief on the 22nd of April you responded to the questions

17 from my learned colleague, you explained the positions of the artillery

18 pieces, the weapons to the north on the ramparts of the Old Town, you see

19 it here. It's marked here. You said that you weren't quite sure whether

20 on the 6th of December there was the Strijela weapon there or not, or

21 whether it was the Igla type anti-aircraft weapon. Take a look, please.

22 A. Sir, I will take a look at that, but I do know what location I'm

23 talking about. But I have to put myself right. You said on the ramparts,

24 on the walls, the northern walls of the Old Town, right? That's not what

25 I said.

Page 5371

1 Q. I just said the marking was there. That's where it was marked.

2 A. Then be more precise. It is to the north of the walls of the Old

3 Town.

4 Q. Yes, I apologise. I said that it said north?

5 JUDGE PARKER: Gentlemen, you're running an ongoing conversation,

6 the two of you together. No interpreter could possibly cope with that.

7 Is it time, Mr. Rodic, to have a break while you settle down

8 again?

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] It is, indeed, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: We'll have a break then, Mr. Negodic.

11 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Negodic, before the break, we were looking at the location on

16 the map linked to the symbol denoted as -- denoted on the northern side of

17 the Old Town. Do you see that mark there, the symbol?

18 A. Yes, I do. But I have to put you right again. Your expression

19 "on the north side of the Old Town," that would make it that it was on the

20 north side on the Old Town, the weapon, whereas I'm saying that the weapon

21 was to the north of the Old Town, 200 metres away, 100 metre -- 50 is --

22 200 metres away. So Mr. Rodic, that's not one and the same thing. Do you

23 understand me?

24 Q. Yes, I understand you completely. And I'm not insisting on

25 anything. We'll get through the explanation slowly.

Page 5372

1 A. Your Honours, may I take advantage of this occasion to ask you

2 that a correction be made. I don't know when I would have the right to

3 speak up and say what I have to say. So with the Court's indulgence, may

4 I do that now?

5 JUDGE PARKER: Please, if you would.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gentlemen from the Defence, a little

7 patience, if you will. After my testimony on Friday, I thought through

8 what I had said, and I came -- I realised that I gave a statement which

9 referred to the 6th of December, that is to say that, in the attack,

10 vessels had also taken part, ships. So in that sense, in order to paint a

11 clearer picture of the situation on the 6th of December, I hereby state

12 the following: That the ships were in territorial waters of the Republic

13 of Croatia in the Bay of Zupa Dubrovacka, but they didn't go into

14 operation and attack the town. For us to understand the situation better,

15 let me give a brief explanation, if I may.

16 We are witnesses to the fact that on Friday, there was some

17 interruption in the working of the apparatuses here, the technology. So

18 my answers also run along those lines. That is to say, I have a computer

19 in my head, and it has been 13 years since the time of the event. So I do

20 hope you'll understand me when I say that my computer went wrong and that

21 men can be used up just like machines can. So I ask for the Court's

22 indulgence and understanding. So if I correct my statement, as I have

23 just done, I should like to ask the Trial Chamber to accept that. Thank

24 you.

25 JUDGE PARKER: So we understand from what you now say,

Page 5373

1 Mr. Negodic, that you want it to stand as your evidence that on the 6th of

2 December 1991, there was no fire from ships of the JNA.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, sir.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Negodic, I would like to follow on from that correction you

7 just made to ask you who jogged your memory and reminded you of that. Who

8 did you talk to?

9 A. No, I went through the matter in my own mind because I had two

10 days, the weekend, to think over what I had said. And I don't wish you,

11 sir, to understand that I am cheering any team here. I'm not in that role

12 of cheerer. So please believe me when I say I don't seek any revenge.

13 I'm not burdened either ethnically speaking or religiously speaking. And

14 I'm just an ordinary man. I would have fought anybody who had attacked

15 Yugoslavia. That's just the way that I'm fighting this case, too.

16 But as I had so many questions from the Prosecution and of course

17 from you yourself, you know what it's like. One puts oneself right. You

18 say something and you remember it might not have been like that exactly as

19 you put it, so you put yourself right. So for a better understanding for

20 us all, I wanted to make that situation clear and clear matters up here in

21 the courtroom.

22 Q. Well, I was just interested in how come you came by that

23 correction, how you suddenly thought of that, and is that the only thing

24 that you have thought of during the weekend?

25 A. Well, I just remembered that there was no talk or stories going

Page 5374

1 round that they had targeted Lapad, Nuncijata, or Pile in the command.

2 Although I had health problems, and I've already told you about them,

3 nobody told me when they came to visit me in hospital, nobody ever

4 mentioned any ships. So then I remembered following that line of thinking

5 that my members didn't mention any attacks launched from the ships. So

6 that's it.

7 Now, what happened before the attack, for example, in November and

8 so on, we have already discussed that. So that's what I wanted to tell

9 you.

10 Q. Tell me, please, you happened to remember that you told the

11 Prosecutor that the ships attacked.

12 A. Yes. Whether you asked me or the Prosecutor asked me that, I

13 can't quite remember. But what I do remember is that I spoke about the

14 fact that ships had attacked. So I don't want, if I did say that,

15 relating to the 6th of December, then I don't want my statement to be

16 incorrect. That's not my purpose here.

17 Q. So you consider that to be very important, did you, when you gave

18 it some thought, whether the ships had attacked that day?

19 A. I took it in sequence. And this brought me to the 6th of

20 December. I don't know whether you understand me. I am a well-brought-up

21 person. I am honest and sincere, and I would be angry if anybody thought

22 that I wasn't telling the truth or wasn't saying something that I'm

23 absolutely certain of. So I think that it would be acceptable, that it is

24 acceptable, that when I put forward my arguments on time, it is well

25 intentioned, and I think that you should accept my correction.

Page 5375

1 Q. Yes, certainly, Mr. Negodic, but I am also interested from the

2 other point of view, this targeting of ships on the 6th of December. Now

3 you have denied that. You have denied that they opened fire and that you

4 told us why. You gave us an explanation. But, sir, one essential point

5 of a personal nature, for example, during the examination-in-chief, you

6 didn't stress, you didn't say that you were wounded and injured on that

7 same day, the 6th of December, and that you weren't at your position,

8 taking up your duties for a period of time.

9 A. Well, it wasn't important. It wasn't essential. It didn't come

10 up. I suppose the questions were posed in that way that didn't require me

11 to answer that, an answer of that kind. For me to clarify this situation

12 up, I have just explained the situation I was in for you to understand me

13 better. So I assume that the gentlemen, and I've forgotten their names

14 now, that they formulated their questions in such a way that it didn't

15 require me to explain that, to go into that particular explanation. Do

16 you understand me?

17 Q. Yes, but we come to my learned friend's question of the 6th of

18 December when you said that throughout you were at your combat positions

19 on that particular day; and yet now, today, we have just learnt that you

20 weren't there. And you explained why you were absent, that you were in

21 hospital and so on and so forth. Isn't that right?

22 A. Yes. I have already given an explanation to Their Honours, to the

23 Trial Chamber, and I gave you an explanation a moment ago yourself when I

24 said that part of the command during my absence was led by Mirko Katanic.

25 And having given you this piece of information, that the man's name was

Page 5376

1 Mirko Katanic, I have also automatically stated that if he was in charge

2 of that part of the business that I wasn't at the combat position on that

3 day. Do you understand me? Are you following me? So it's an indirect

4 answer to you. If I gave you the name of the person doing my work and

5 taking over my duties in the command at that day, he did so because I

6 wasn't there that day by inference.

7 Q. All right, fine. Now, what does it mean when you tell us that

8 Maljutka, the Babin Kuk position, and the crew linked to Maljutka was not

9 able to remain at their positions but had to move due to the effects of

10 the Yugoslav Navy and its ships, its vessels? So where were those vessels

11 shooting?

12 A. Just as I put myself right and corrected their action, in my mind,

13 I mixed up the dates. The fact that they weren't able to fire because of

14 concentrated fire from a number of ships targeted Lapad and Nuncijata was

15 not on the 6th of December because my corrected statement entails this

16 whole situation around the Maljutka. It is closely linked. It follows on

17 from the other. So if you -- and I have asked you to accept my corrected

18 statement, that on the 6th of December, they did not open fire at the town

19 of Dubrovnik, that is to say, the ships didn't, then automatically it

20 follows that that date is not linked to the Maljutka episode either.

21 Q. All right. Thank you.

22 Now, I'd like to bring up another point in that connection.

23 Paragraph 30 of your statement, in fact, can he we take a look at that.

24 And you say there: "I was not present, but my men also reported to me

25 that they had been attacked from a naval boat off Lapad, in Lapad Bay. We

Page 5377

1 were told later that night at Dance and also at the Hotel Belvedere during

2 the day there was some shooting from naval weaponry." So that means that

3 in December, you told the investigators this about the fact that the naval

4 vessels had opened fire.

5 A. If I have already stated, sir, that on the 6th of December I got

6 the dates mixed up, just as I have -- just as I explained a moment ago, or

7 rather said that they had put down anchor at the Bay of Zupa, and then we

8 came to the Maljutka situation, so following on from these events, we come

9 to the shooting at Dance and the Hotel Belvedere. Naval vessels returning

10 to the Bay of Kotor would empty out all their ammunition at the Belvedere

11 Hotel, so if this did not happen, it would appear to us to be unusual, an

12 unusual situation that they did not do this. It was just a play on words

13 whether it was the 6th of December or whether it was in the month of

14 November. And let me repeat again, it has been 13 years since then, 13

15 years have gone by. And I do wish at all costs to actually forget what

16 happened 13 years ago. And now, when the Prosecutor began to question me

17 on this, and you yourself did, too, it is quite natural that a mistake

18 might have slipped in.

19 Q. Thank you. You said a moment ago that nobody spoke to you about

20 or said anything about the fact that the navy on the 6th of December

21 opened fire, whereas in your statement you say later that night I was told

22 about Dance, Belvedere, and so on. So it would appear from that that

23 somebody did tell you something that night on the 6th of December.

24 A. Well, they couldn't have told me that on the 6th of December

25 because if the ships didn't even reach the Dubrovnik territory, but had

Page 5378

1 anchored in the Bay of Zupa, they were ready to go into action but did not

2 go into action. And that's why I said that it was just that night, that I

3 mixed up the two nights, whether it was the 6th of December or, for

4 example, the 6th of November.

5 THE INTERPRETER: 12th of November. Interpreter's correction.

6 A. It's not easy, you know --

7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. I apologise for interrupting, but maybe just to get back to the

9 text. You read out your statement here, you read through it before you

10 began your testimony here before my learned colleague of the Prosecution

11 started asking you questions. Is that right?

12 A. Yes, I was given my statement to look through it and correct

13 certain portions. But at that time as well --

14 Q. Before the examination-in-chief conducted by my learned colleague,

15 you had a chance to read through --

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

17 Complete his response. He has been interrupted halfway through the

18 response.

19 JUDGE PARKER: I think the witness is managing to get pretty good

20 innings in his response. So Mr. Rodic, would you ask your question.

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Before the examination-in-chief, you read through your statement

23 again, the one you gave to the investigators in December 2003, did you

24 not?

25 A. I don't know the date. But yes, I did give a statement.

Page 5379

1 Q. And did you read it through, read through it before the

2 examination-in-chief?

3 A. Yes, it was given to me so that I could take a look, but quite

4 simply I didn't remark that mistake. I didn't notice the mistake. Do you

5 understand me?

6 Q. Now, when you read through the statement, did you tell the

7 Prosecutor which points from your statement should be corrected?

8 A. Yes, I think I did. I think we put right two or three points.

9 But had I remembered, then I would have told them then, and we wouldn't

10 spend this much time on that point, had I remembered to put that point

11 right.

12 Q. All right. But just tell me, is it true that this paragraph,

13 paragraph 30, after you read this paragraph, you didn't remember to change

14 it before the examination-in-chief?

15 A. Do you believe that paragraph 30 relates to what we're discussing

16 now?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Well, it's very difficult to speak in the way you are speaking or

19 the lady from the Prosecution. Unfortunately, I do not have the right to

20 have a piece of paper and a pencil beside me for me to be able to make

21 notes to assist me in solving this problem better. Had I been able to

22 remember everything and had I had time on Thursday and on Friday, I'm sure

23 I would have done it then and wouldn't have waited for the whole weekend

24 to go by. So that's what I wanted to tell you.

25 Q. Tell me, as long as we're on this subject, I'll read out to you

Page 5380

1 paragraph 18 from your statement. "We had at our disposal the following

2 equipment: Two ZIS cannons, 76 millimetres; five 120-millimetre mortars;

3 seven 82-millimetre mortars; one single-barrel 128-millimetre rocket

4 launcher; two B2 76-millimetre cannons. Some 30 per cent of these weapons

5 did not have sighting devices on them and so they were not functioning

6 fully."

7 Is this correct?

8 A. As far as I can see, you received a revised corrected statement

9 that was supposed to be given to you.

10 Q. Who told you this?

11 A. Well, I asked corrections to be made. Two times B1, that is two

12 B1 guns came on the 6th of December. And there were three mortars on that

13 firing position, and you should have these corrections in your statement.

14 Q. Yes, the statement was corrected before you came to testify, but

15 paragraph 18 was not subject to these corrections and it was not signed as

16 such by you. So if we compare this to what you said in your testimony in

17 chief, we have two more mortars of 120 millimetres and two B2 cannons of

18 76 millimetres. That's a big difference.

19 A. I would like the Prosecutor to explain this because I think you

20 should have been provided with a corrected copy. I signed these three

21 points, and one of them should be that we're not talking about B2 or B1,

22 76-millimetre cannons; we received them after the 6th of December. And

23 there were not five but three 120-millimetre weapons.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, just to place on the record, the

25 corrections that the witness sought has been provided to the Defence. And

Page 5381

1 there were four corrections made to his statement.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] These corrections were made. This is

4 not an issue. And the Defence is not saying that it hasn't received them.

5 Q. What I am saying, that among these corrections we received,

6 paragraph 18 enumerating the weapons at your disposal had not been changed

7 or modified.

8 A. Sir, I can testify that I saw with my own eyes this correction

9 being made, where it was written "two cannons, 76 millimetres." That was

10 crossed out. The number five was crossed out and three was put instead.

11 Why you don't have this, I can't understand.

12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Can my learned friend help us regarding

13 this correction.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, the witness sought a correction to

15 paragraph 19, and there he wanted us to delete the reference to two B2

16 76-millimetre cannons which are positioned at 300 metres from

17 St. Michael's church in Lapad. That is the first amendment. And the

18 reference to the two B2 76-millimetre cannons in paragraph 18 is one and

19 the same. That is what the witness is indicating to my learned friend.

20 JUDGE PARKER: I think the problem, Mr. Rodic, may be that the

21 matter was corrected in one place in the statement, paragraph 19, but not

22 in paragraph 18. But the two paragraphs are dealing with the same types

23 of weapons.

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honour. Then I'll

25 move on.

Page 5382

1 Q. Mr. Negodic, let us look at the map now. Please, look at this.

2 The closest symbol for artillery pieces to the area of the Old Town. Tell

3 me, which area, and please look at the map carefully, which area on this

4 diagram is covered by the whole symbol? Does it touch the ramparts and

5 crosses over the ramparts into the Old Town?

6 A. I didn't draw this, and I'm not fully qualified to answer.

7 Q. I'm only asking you to tell us what you see on the map. Is this

8 correct?

9 A. Looking at this, one could say that this artillery piece, if you

10 are looking at the road from the town, it should be here. However, when

11 you look at the map, to the right of this artillery piece you will see a

12 red spot where mortar action is designated. 50 metres above the road.

13 Whereas my firing position was right by the sea.

14 What I mean to say is this: I know that this weapon on the upper

15 road was positioned at the starting point of the ski lift, near the

16 platform of the ski lift at a distance of 120 to 150 metres. When I gave

17 you this explanation that it was 50 metres above the road whereas it

18 should be close to the sea, I hope that that should be clear.

19 Q. I'm asking you simply to answer my question. It's very precise.

20 The symbol of anti-aircraft artillery weapon, can you tell us how is it

21 drawn on the map? Does this symbol cover partly the territory of the Old

22 Town?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, tell me, this symbol drawn in near the Old Town

25 was designated by you, was marked by you as an anti-aircraft weapon.

Page 5383

1 A. That's what I think it has to be, because there's no other weapon

2 in the vicinity.

3 Q. Tell me, to the right of that, the next symbol is a symbol for a

4 mortar.

5 A. Yes, but it's not drawn in properly.

6 Q. We're now only discussing symbols. To the right of the mortar,

7 what does this symbol designate, this little arrow which in the middle has

8 a small arch? What does that designate?

9 A. By the location --

10 Q. Not by the location. I'm asking you what the symbol means.

11 A. You see, on the right side, it has a red little dot. And on the

12 left side, it's connected. I suppose the marking is the same for an

13 anti-aircraft weapon, be it an Igla needle or Strijela arrow. I believe

14 that is the same kind of marking as the one we discussed before.

15 Q. Do you know by any chance which symbol is used to denote an

16 anti-aircraft gun?

17 A. I'm not sure. I believe if it has two little dots on the right

18 side, that should be the anti-aircraft gun.

19 Q. The symbol for that is like the one on the edges of the Old Town.

20 A. Yes, I believe that is the symbol designating that. But I'm not

21 sure.

22 Q. Tell me, is it correct that these two symbols near the Old Town

23 and the one close to the bay, the beach, these two are different? They

24 don't seem to be the same, at least the way they are drawn on this map?

25 A. Correct.

Page 5384

1 Q. Now, tell me one more thing: In the course of your

2 examination-in-chief, when you were asked about the position of the

3 artillery weapon marked by a symbol, when my learned friend was asking you

4 about anti-aircraft weapons, when you look at the symbol, can you tell the

5 position of that weapon vis-a-vis the symbol?

6 A. Do you want me to give you a clarification as to the whereabouts

7 of the position?

8 Q. Yes. But to avoid wasting time, my learned friend asked you, when

9 you look at the symbol for anti-aircraft guns, when she asked you "where

10 is the weapon," you said on the top of the symbol. So on the top of that

11 symbol is the place where this gun was actually positioned. Is that what

12 you explained?

13 A. Yes. That's one explanation. But I -- there's another

14 explanation. I said that, for instance, when we're talking about my

15 mortar, it is in the middle of the symbol.

16 Q. You mean to say that the position of the mortar is in the middle

17 of the area covered by the symbol?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, tell me, Mr. Negodic, in what military rule does it say that

20 the top of the symbol for anti-aircraft guns denotes its position, whereas

21 the middle of the symbol designating mortars indicates the position of the

22 mortar on the map? Is there a military rule which governs this matter?

23 Or is it something that you believe to be true?

24 A. I was sure about my answer concerning artillery. However, as far

25 as air defence is concerned and anti-aircraft weapons, I'm not sure why it

Page 5385

1 is that way. I was trying to indicate where the positions were judging by

2 the stories I heard at the command. And as far as these details are

3 concerned, I'm sorry.

4 Q. I agree, Mr. Negodic, I understand what you said about the

5 artillery positions and the fact that the middle of the symbol denotes the

6 position. But I can tell you that there is no military rule that says

7 that the top of the symbol designating anti-aircraft --

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour.


10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: My learned friend is testifying on this issue.

11 He is putting certain assertions to the witness without really asking a

12 question.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I think you're slipping into that fault,

14 Mr. Rodic. You put it correctly the first time, but now you're trying to

15 assert it yourself. So perhaps you better move on.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I made an assertion, and

17 I asked the witness whether it was correct. And I received an affirmative

18 answer from the witness.

19 JUDGE PARKER: No, you didn't, Mr. Rodic. He still tells you he

20 didn't know the position with respect to anti-aircraft weapons. You're

21 now trying to tell him that the military rule for the depiction of

22 anti-aircraft weapons on maps is the same as for artillery. Well, that's

23 the only fault that I'm identifying to you on the objection of counsel for

24 the Prosecution.

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I will

Page 5386

1 rephrase my question.

2 Q. Mr. Negodic, is there any military rule that stipulates depiction

3 of anti-aircraft weapons by symbols wherein the anti-aircraft gun is

4 positioned on the top of the symbol?

5 A. I said that I am not qualified enough to answer whether that is

6 contained in the rule or not. All I meant to say is that speaking of

7 anti-aircraft weapons, the position of the arrow should indicate the

8 position of the gun, especially because in this map, the position was

9 above the tip of the arrow, and that seemed to tell me that in this case

10 it was also true.

11 Q. Use the indicator to show this on the map. Which position are you

12 talking about and where is the firing position there? There are many

13 other firing positions further up and to the left. Does the red line

14 indicate the firing position?

15 A. As you see on the map now, it is drawn in here, a large square

16 coloured white. Above that square, on the -- on the nearest road, there

17 is a ski lift -- a cable car, not a ski lift. And that was where this

18 Strijela 2M was positioned.

19 Q. Tell me, then, how did you answer the Prosecutor so positively

20 that the tip of the symbol denotes the position of the gun, if you were

21 not sure?

22 A. I don't know how it was interpreted. But I said I was sure about

23 the artillery. And as far as anti-aircraft guns, I was not sure.

24 Q. Let me ask you one more thing: In view of the position as

25 indicated by the symbol, in view of the layout of this symbol itself, is

Page 5387

1 it possible that this anti-aircraft gun was also -- could have been on the

2 wall of the Old Town? Because the symbol seems to cross over into the Old

3 Town, to cover the ramparts and go into the wall.

4 A. I know, sir, you would like me to tell you yes or no. But please,

5 you seem to be leading me to confirm that just because the symbol covers

6 part of the walls that the weapon itself could have been in the Old Town.

7 I cannot accept that. Let me finish, please. Allow me.

8 If I said, if I asked you before this Honourable Court to show me

9 the firing position of the mortar to the right of this position which is

10 not drawn in anywhere near the position where it actually was, in the same

11 way there is a considerable difference between reality and a depiction.

12 And I'm trying to explain to the Court again. There is no way you can

13 explain that this gun was inside the Old Town.

14 Q. I have heard you out carefully. But, please, hear me out. We

15 haven't yet come to the mortar. What I'm asking you is this: Reading the

16 map, you were qualified, so I'm asking you about map reading as an

17 artillery man. I'm not asking you whether on the 6th of December

18 anti-aircraft weapons, whether they were there or whether they were 200

19 metres in front or 200 metres to the left. All I'm asking you is map

20 reading, map reading on the basis of symbols. When you say a map of this

21 kind, written down in this way, my question to you was: Reading the map

22 would you say that the symbol has moved to the area across the walls and

23 into the Old Town. Would you say that by map reading, sir?

24 A. Yes, I would, sir.

25 Q. So we have already noted that these two symbols on the Old Town

Page 5388

1 and the bay and beach are different; they differ. Is that right? The two

2 red arrows, that's what I'm referring to.

3 A. Yes. However, as the background is black, if you look on the

4 right, it would appear that these are the same two dots as these other

5 ones and that the person who drew the map joined them.

6 Q. But it is a full red line, not a dotted line. And I think that

7 that full line differs from the points. Is that right?

8 A. Yes, that's quite right. You can see that on this map.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 During the examination-in-chief, you said you weren't sure whether

11 on the 6th of December at the position at the Old Town, whether there was

12 the Strijela-type weapon or the Igla weapon. Is that right?

13 A. Yes, that's quite right.

14 Q. When my learned colleague asked you about this second symbol, this

15 arrow with a curved line across the arrow, your answer was that you

16 weren't sure whether there was a Strijela position there or an Igla.

17 A. Yes, that's quite right, sir.

18 Q. Tell me, please, during the 6th of December 1991, at any given

19 point in time, was there the danger of the infantry, the members of the

20 JNA, should enter from either one side or the other side into the narrow

21 area of Dubrovnik proper, the town, as you've explained to us today?

22 A. All the approaches, all the access roads as you've already asked

23 me were mined on time prior to that period. There were attempts from the

24 Strincjera side and towards the Nuncijata side of Dubrovnik. And of

25 course, combined with an infantry and tank attack on Srdj because by

Page 5389

1 taking control of Fort Srdj, if I can put it -- illustrate it this way,

2 they would have got to the roof of our house. So on the 6th of December

3 to the best of my knowledge, there was no infantry attack from the east.

4 And I'm talking about the Old Town. I don't know whether you were

5 interested in anything else.

6 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, in paragraph 25 of your statement,

7 the one you gave to the investigators in December 2003, you say the

8 following: "After 8.00, we fired on both the areas at the entrance to

9 Dubrovnik just after 0800 hours as a very small number of enemy troops

10 were moving into these areas: As we had limited ammunition, this was at a

11 very slow tempo. The tempo of fire was very small." So this is,

12 according to your statement given to the investigators, and judging by

13 that it is obvious that the enemy troops, enemy soldiers, moved forward

14 towards both the entrances into Dubrovnik.

15 A. Towards Dubrovnik, if you look at the map from Srdj, for example,

16 towards the main road, the highway, you will see that it is not covered by

17 mine fields. To the right of that, you cannot see the serpentine roads

18 from the village of Bosanka and Zarkovica. So that is the access road,

19 the approach road. And to this very day, the peasants, the native people

20 of the village, go on foot and use that road going into town.

21 However, this approach road underneath Nuncijata and Strincjera at

22 the village of Sustjepan, there was an attempt of an infantry attack

23 there.

24 Q. Now, in both these areas at the entrance to Dubrovnik, after 8.00

25 in the morning, did you open fire?

Page 5390

1 A. Could you please repeat that question.

2 Q. My question is this: On the 6th of December, immediately after

3 8.00 a.m., did you open fire on both areas at the entrance to Dubrovnik?

4 A. No. Just the entrance on the Sustjepan side.

5 Q. So we're going away from the Old Town again. Is that right?

6 Running away from the Old Town?

7 A. How do you mean running away from the Old Town?

8 Q. We're always running away from the Old Town. Now you say that

9 there was no attack either?

10 A. There wasn't an attack. But in my statement, the one that I gave

11 on several occasions, I don't mean my testimony in Court, but before, the

12 statement I gave before, you can see and you have that I think at your

13 disposal that this combat position of the 82-millimetre mortar at the

14 Lazaret position, that I have already given an explanation and said that

15 there was no need to open fire at this part of town that you asked me,

16 which is the eastern approach. But that there were just four mines which

17 come under Primic and the deputy commander Pilas picked up on the 6th of

18 December after half past 11.00 and took them to the positions of those

19 four mines, from that combat position. Shells, not mines.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, the counsel has phrased the

21 question to this effect: "Now you say there was no attack either." The

22 witness never said anything to that effect, Your Honour, as I recall.

23 JUDGE PARKER: What was it you were referring to, Mr. Rodic?

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was

25 specifically related to the statement by the witness, the one he gave to

Page 5391

1 the investigators, to the effect that in Dubrovnik, there were a number of

2 enemy soldiers moving in, and that that is why artillery -- Croatian

3 artillery forces opened fire on both the areas of access into Dubrovnik.

4 One access to Sustjepan and Nuncijata on the left; and to the right, the

5 right entrance from the right-hand side from the mortar symbol on to the

6 Lazaret position which was to be found to the right of the Old Town.

7 The witness has now stated that this attack, this infantry attack,

8 took place only on the left-hand side; that is to say, from the Nuncijata

9 and Sustjepan side. So my question to him was this: Is he running away

10 from the Old Town again, from the attack, the infantry on the right? And

11 he spoke about that in his statement.

12 JUDGE PARKER: The paragraph in the statement to the Prosecution

13 that you referred to was number --

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Number 25, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I think that will identify your source

16 for the purposes of Ms. Mahindaratne.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Negodic, can you tell me what you opened fire with at the

19 entrances to town when the enemy soldiers were moving forward? What

20 weapons and from what positions?

21 A. Sir, I have already told you, I told you two minutes ago, that we

22 did not target the eastern approach; only the northwestern approach. And

23 we opened fire from mortars at the Solitudo camping site.

24 Q. So it was the position at the Solitudo camp, camping site?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5392

1 Q. Well, could you tell me, then, why before the examination-in-chief

2 when reading through your statement you didn't correct paragraph 25 and

3 say it was incorrect, incorrectly written? Why did you not do that?

4 A. Well, an oversight, I assume, sir. Because there was action

5 before the 6th of December at one point - I can't remember the date - when

6 there was an attempt at infantry attack. However, after the engineers had

7 mined that approach road, and it is a narrow road built during the days of

8 Austria, where the old walls are 20 to 30 metres high, it is so narrow

9 that you can't have an armoured vehicle pass by. It would have been

10 tantamount to suicide had the infantry gone that way. So we didn't need

11 to target that particular approach.

12 And of course, that might have been an oversight on my part.

13 Q. Now, whether the road was mined, protected before you gave your

14 statement, is that it, was it?

15 A. Yes, it was mined.

16 Q. Was that in 1991?

17 A. Yes, 1991. That was -- well, I can't remember the exact date, but

18 I do know that the commander -- that we asked the commander of that

19 theatre of war --

20 Q. To enable entrance into town from the right-hand side?

21 A. We had no need to be along this access any longer because the

22 commander himself of the -- of Dubrovnik's defence told us that we should

23 move as far away from the Old Town as possible so that this position at

24 Lazaret with the four mines that were picked up on the 6th of December was

25 not operational because we didn't feel any need to have it there. It was

Page 5393

1 sufficient for us to leave those four mines for safety reasons, security

2 reasons.

3 Q. But at any rate, the two mortars at the Lazaret position which

4 were there to protect the infantry from coming in from that side into

5 Dubrovnik was still positioned there. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, these two mortars at the Lazaret position, that means to the

8 right of the Old Town, were they with a crew, manned or not manned?

9 A. As I've already stated, it was a joint unit, and that combat

10 position --

11 Q. Mr. Negodic, I have to interrupt you. I'm sorry. We've heard all

12 that. We know all about that. What I'm interested now --

13 A. No, there was no crew. On the 6th of December at that position,

14 there was no crew. It was not manned.

15 Q. And how long up until the 6th of December were those mortars there

16 at the Lazaret position? How long had they been there for?

17 A. At the request of the commander of that unit, permission was given

18 for him to leave them -- leave a guard there at that combat position, and

19 it wasn't operational for some time. Commander Primic took all his men

20 and positioned them at the SDK combat position. At about half past

21 11.00 --

22 Q. You haven't answered my question again. What I asked you was

23 this: From the 6th of December backwards, or rather before the 6th of

24 December, how long before the 6th of December were the mortars, the

25 82-millimetre mortars positioned at the Lazaret position, regardless of

Page 5394

1 who was there with them?

2 A. Those combat positions were in that particular locality

3 throughout.

4 Q. Were they there in October and November 1991?

5 A. They were placed there at the beginning of November, I believe. I

6 can't give you an exact date.

7 Q. So from these mortars, since they were positioned there, was fire

8 opened? Did they open fire?

9 A. Yes. But just on a single day; that is, the day before the

10 approach road was mined from Dubac into town, or rather towards the

11 Belvedere Hotel, 16 shells were fired. And that combat position had 20.

12 It spent 16. And those shells remained there until the 6th of December

13 when they were taken away.

14 Q. And when were these 16 shells fired?

15 A. I think this was in the first half of November. But as I said

16 before, I'm not quite sure of the date. It's very difficult to say after

17 so many years have gone by.

18 Q. Now, these 16 shells, were they fired in a single day?

19 A. As far as I remember, yes.

20 Q. Do you mean to say, then, that the mortar, one or several, two

21 mortars, let's say, I apologise, two mortars at the Lazaret position, as

22 well as two mortars at the Bogosica Park position, that they went into

23 operation only on a single day in the month of November and nothing more

24 than that, from October to the end of December 1991? Is that what you're

25 saying?

Page 5395

1 A. Yes, that's right. That's what I'm saying because there was no

2 need for them to fire. And the other combat position was in operation one

3 day; it is visible from Zarkovica. And that is why it wasn't well placed.

4 Q. Tell me, please, this other position, the ZIS, Z-I-S, cannon

5 position, near the Ivo Vojnovic Street, how many shells were fired from

6 that cannon on the 6th of December 1991?

7 A. I think it was about 170.

8 Q. I see. 170. Now, that cannon, at that position, did it open fire

9 in November as well, November 1991?

10 A. I really can't say with certainty. All I know is about the 6th of

11 December.

12 Q. That cannon, once again, apart from the 6th of December 1991, did

13 it open fire at any other time in the period from the 1st of October to

14 the 31st of December 1991?

15 A. I will have to give you a slightly longer answer.

16 Q. But please try and keep it brief, as brief as possible. Time is

17 of the essence.

18 A. Well, then you won't get the right picture. We had two combat

19 positions, and we had 200 pieces for two cannons. On that day, since

20 there was shelling and an all-out infantry and tank attack, we were forced

21 to use that amount of ammunition, whereas the other didn't use even four.

22 Because we had to keep all the shells except for an infantry attack in

23 order to prevent them taking control of Srdj and entering town. And that

24 is why that cannon fired that many shells. So of the 200 shells they had,

25 practically none remained.

Page 5396

1 Q. Mr. Negodic, you either don't understand me, or you seem to be

2 swerving and giving broader answers. But you're not answering my specific

3 question. We have heard that the cannon placed in Ivo Vojnovic Street on

4 the 6th of December, that it fired 170 shells. Is that right?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. My question is now, apart from the 6th of December, in the period

7 from the 1st of October to the 31st of December 1991, did that gun ever

8 open fire again?

9 A. No, sir, it was not used.

10 Q. You are claiming that the action of that gun for the period of

11 three months was only on one day, was limited to one day, the 6th of

12 December 1991?

13 A. Yes. But I have to add very briefly again --

14 Q. Tell me, concerning the positions of mortars, near the auto camp?

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... add to

16 his response.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Very briefly, again, you were going to add

18 something, Mr. Negodic.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I want to say to this

20 gentleman, and for your information, Your Honour, that so many shells were

21 used because directly looking at the town and the Srdj fortress, we were

22 facing a large tank attack. And that's why we used so many shells. We

23 were not able to respond to the shelling of the town before the 6th of

24 December, before we did not have adequate range for a 130- and

25 122-millimetre gun, and we would have been wasting our ammunition unless

Page 5397

1 we approached and came closer.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Rodic.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Tell me, the position of that mortar near the SDK building or the

5 Dubrovkinja building as it was also known, for how long was that position

6 in existence before the 6th of December 1991?

7 A. If you're asking me about dates, I cannot answer.

8 Q. I'm not asking you about dates. Tell me, 15 days back, 20 days

9 back.

10 A. As soon as we withdrew to the area of the town, that firing

11 position was established. And on several times, and on several occasions,

12 fire was opened from that position.

13 Q. Thank you. If you are telling me that fire was opened on several

14 occasions from that firing position, can you tell me how many times before

15 the 6th of December?

16 A. Seven, eight, ten times.

17 Q. Can you perhaps remember any dates?

18 A. I don't remember, sir.

19 Q. But do you remember, for instance, how many shells were fired on

20 each occasion from that position?

21 A. Who would be able to tell you that after 13 years I wonder. All I

22 know is that we were economising, except on the 6th of December when we

23 used up all the shells we had from that position.

24 Q. And do you know how many shells from that position, after firing

25 from that position remained unused on each occasion?

Page 5398

1 A. I don't know the exact number. But we always tried to save some

2 for the rainy day. And that rainy day came on the 6th of December.

3 Q. If I understood you correctly, you are only aware of the Lazaret

4 position. You know that 12 remained and that you used around 10.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure about the number.

6 A. I know that four shells were used every time.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, the evidence was that 16 shells

8 were used, and 4 remained.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I think that's correct, Mr. Rodic.

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] That's what I said, Your Honour. But

11 it was not recorded properly.

12 Q. Is it true that in the examination-in-chief, you explained that

13 mortars near Lazaret, 100 metres away from Old Town, had to be there to

14 prevent any attack, any breakthrough of the infantry towards the Old Town?

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Objection, Your Honour. The witness didn't say

16 the mortars near Lazaret were a hundred metres away. He gave an

17 indication more than hundred metres.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I think that is correct, Mr. Rodic. But it also

19 occurs to me that the time has been reached where we must allow your

20 client to leave or he won't get back to the Detention Centre. So we will

21 have to adjourn for the day.

22 The question arises, which you no doubt anticipate from me, how

23 much longer would you expect to be?

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in my estimate, if I try

25 to be brief, I believe I would not use up all of the second session

Page 5399

1 tomorrow. Sometime in the second session I could be done with this

2 witness.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Once again, Mr. Rodic, you are exceeding our

4 estimation of the time you would justifiably take. Could we put to you

5 that you should, over the evening break, give close attention to finishing

6 by the end of the first session tomorrow. Look at your questions again.

7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will do my level best,

8 but I'm asking also for your understanding because we have here the only

9 representative of the Croatian Army whose examination-in-chief lasted two

10 full days, and we the Defence had one day, one whole day today and a

11 little over 40 minutes on Friday. I will continue to make my

12 cross-examination as brief as I can, but I hope that you can appreciate

13 our situation.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Well, as you are well aware, we do appreciate it,

15 Mr. Rodic, and that's why we have been quiet and letting you get on with

16 it as much as possible. And we do appreciate that your questioning has

17 been quite direct. But there have been times when you've wandered off on

18 to issues that are not central to the case, and time has been lost. So we

19 ask you overnight to look again at your proposed questions to make sure

20 you are dealing only with the issues that matter in this case.

21 We will adjourn now and resume tomorrow morning.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of April,

25 2003, at 9.00 a.m.