Page 7700

 1                          Monday, 12 July 2004

 2                          [The accused entered court]

 3                          [The witness entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5                JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon, Captain Drljan.  Can I remind

 6    you of the affirmation you took at the beginning of your evidence, which

 7    still applies.

 8            Mr. Rodic.

 9            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           WITNESS:  JOVAN DRLJAN [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                          Examined by Mr. Rodic: [Continued]

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Drljan, good afternoon.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   We'll resume our examination-in-chief where we left off last

16    Friday.

17             My last question to you was:  Where were you on the 6th of

18    December?

19        A.   On the 6th of December, I was at the forward command post.

20    That's in the early morning of the 6th.  Later, I left for Zarkovica,

21    where there was the command post.

22        Q.   Can you please tell me what you did on that morning, the morning

23    of the 6th of December, 1991.

24        A.   As soon as I woke up, before I started working, I came to the

25    operational centre of the forward command post.

Page 7701

 1        Q.   Was there anything going on at the forward command post, more

 2    specifically, in the operational centre?

 3        A.   No.  I didn't notice anything particular, anything out of the

 4    ordinary, except that frigate Captain Kozaric was making some entries in

 5    the military -- in the war logbook.  At that time, the phone rang.  I

 6    answered the phone.  It was usual for anyone who was closest to the phone

 7    to pick up the receiver and to take any notes that needed to be taken,

 8    anything to be written down.  I answered the phone, and warship Captain

 9    Zec ordered me to go to Zarkovica to see Captain First Class Vladimir

10    Kovacevic and to convey orders from the commander, Admiral Jokic, he must

11    not fire on the Old Town.

12        Q.   At what time did the call come in?  I know it's been a long time,

13    but please tell us, if you can.

14        A.   That was between 10 past 7.00 and a quarter past 7.00.

15        Q.   Can you please make a short pause between question and answer for

16    the benefit of the interpreters.  Thank you.

17             What did you do after you received that call?

18        A.   Having received that call, I went back to my room to put on some

19    warm clothes.  There was a strong wind on that day and it was quite cold.

20    As soon as I got dressed, I went downstairs.  I had breakfast in a hurry

21    and I went outside to find a driver and a car that could take me to

22    Zarkovica, where I had been ordered to go.

23        Q.   So did you in fact leave for Zarkovica that morning?

24        A.   Yes, I did.  I apologise for starting my answer immediately, to

25    the interpreters.  I left for Zarkovica immediately and I reached

Page 7702

 1    Zarkovica at about 8.00 sharp.

 2        Q.   Once at Zarkovica, what did you do?

 3        A.   As soon as I got there, I got out of the car.  I had left the car

 4    right there at the beginning, because I saw that there was firing.  And I

 5    went into the bunker, which is where Captain First Class Kovacevic was,

 6    and he exercised command from there.  He was wearing a headset that was

 7    connected to the phone lines, and he was giving orders to his units.

 8             I entered and I conveyed to him the orders that had been issued

 9    by Jokic, and I wanted to make sure whether he had understood the orders.

10    He nodded, which for me was a sign that he had understood the orders.  So

11    I left the bunker, in order to not be in the way of him exercising

12    command.

13        Q.   Can you please explain exactly how he nodded.  The way he nodded,

14    was it clear to you that he had understood what you had conveyed to him,

15    the message?

16        A.   Beyond a shadow of a doubt.  Because what I had told him was,

17    "Captain, Commander Jokic has ordered you not to fire on the Old Town."

18    He was looking straight at me as I was saying these words.  He knew that I

19    was an officer from the command.  And each and every subordinate officer

20    pays close attention whenever an officer from the command walks into their

21    room.  So he was looking at me all the time and he was nodding to let me

22    know that he had understood.

23        Q.   You told us that you didn't want to be in the way while he was

24    giving orders to his troops.  So what did you do next?

25        A.   I left and I headed for a low-squat wall that was at the end of a

Page 7703

 1    clearing, that is, just above the Old Town.  Because it was from that

 2    point that you had the best visibility in terms of being able to observe

 3    what was going on.

 4        Q.   So having arrived at Zarkovica and, as you said, you realised

 5    that Captain Kovacevic was giving orders, was in the process of giving

 6    orders, from that place, could you actually see what was going on around

 7    you?

 8        A.   The wind, the bora wind was very strong on that day and the

 9    weather was clear.  Visibility was excellent and I could actually see as

10    far as the Old Town.  Everything was perfectly clear, and I could also see

11    Srdj, which was being attacked.

12        Q.   How long did you stay at Zarkovica?

13        A.   I stayed for about one hour, so I left Zarkovica at about 9.00.

14    And I left for the forward command post.

15        Q.   So you went back to Kupari; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   During the time you spent at Zarkovica during that one hour, did

18    you observe Srdj and the Old Town?

19        A.   Yes, I observed both Srdj and the Old Town.  I was interested.  I

20    wanted to see what was going on, like everyone else was.  Captain

21    Kovacevic's units had begun to move towards Srdj, because their objective

22    was to take Srdj.  They reached a small elevation just before Srdj and

23    they stopped right there.  That's what I saw happening on Srdj at that

24    point in time.  I also saw shells falling around Srdj, so shells fired

25    from artillery pieces exploding just at the foot of Srdj and behind Srdj,

Page 7704

 1    those that had flown over Srdj.  I can't exactly tell you how many shells.

 2    I didn't count them in or out, but I saw shells exploding.

 3            As for the old part of town --

 4        Q.   Excuse me my interruption, please, but could you tell me the

 5    following:  Those shells that were falling on Srdj as you were watching,

 6    could you tell where those shells were coming from?

 7    A.   Those shells, it's very difficult to follow the trajectory of a

 8    shell.  You don't actually see it.  Those were shells from artillery

 9    pieces with a programmed trajectory.  So they were falling down

10    vertically.  At that point in time, I was in no position to tell where the

11    shells were coming from.

12        Q.   Tell me, sir:  Did you watch Dubrovnik?

13        A.   I watched Dubrovnik's Old Town, which is what you can see very

14    clearly from Zarkovica.  I saw several fires inside the Old Town.  One of

15    these fires was on the Stradun.  Stradun roughly splits the Old Town down

16    the middle, the northern section and the southern section.  Closer to us

17    there was black smoke, pitch-black smoke coming out of a building in the

18    section of town closer to us.  I took my binoculars to see whether the

19    roof of that house had been damaged, and I saw that the roof had not been

20    damaged.  So I couldn't make heads nor tails of it, why the smoke was

21    coming out.  You couldn't see the windows, but smoke was coming out

22    towards the Stradun, black smoke coming out.  And then I saw another fire

23    further down.  There was a building that was on fire.

24        Q.   Very well.  Was there anything else you observed in the Old Town

25    in addition to these fires and the smoke that you have described?

Page 7705

 1        A.   About 15 or 20 minutes later, midway down the Stradun, a huge

 2    gate had been opened and a man walked out with another man who was helping

 3    him.  A big man, about your height, but bulkier, burlier.  They pushed a

 4    mortar out onto the Stradun and they opened fire, firing only a single

 5    shell, or at least I saw them fire only a single shell, after which --

 6       Q.   What did they do after they had fired that shell?

 7        A.   After firing that shell, they lingered on for about a minute,

 8    perhaps.

 9            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Your Honour --

10            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.

11            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I place an objection, Your Honour?

12            The 65 ter summary that we have received does not indicate that

13    this witness has seen a mortar fire from the Old Town.  What is indicated

14    here is that the witness saw a mortar in the Old Town.  That's all.  And

15    this testimony is going beyond the 65 ter summary that has been supplied

16    to the Prosecution.

17            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Rodic.

18            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we've submitted our

19    proofing notes to our learned friends and colleagues on two occasions,

20    because the proofing itself was done a bit later, so there were certain

21    inaccuracies in the first part; and in the second part of our proofing

22    notes, we specified the positions inside the Old Town, the ones that this

23    witness observed, and we sent this on Friday afternoon.

24            JUDGE PARKER:  Are you saying that you notified that there was

25    firing?

Page 7706

 1            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think it would be

 2    all right for me to testify on behalf of this witness in relation to the

 3    Old Town.  Because what we have said so far is not all the information

 4    concerning what he observed in the Old Town.  There is talk of firing

 5    inside the Old Town too.  However, as I said --

 6            JUDGE PARKER:  [Previous translation continues]... Prosecution?

 7            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] The note that was sent to the OTP, as

 8    for this specific position, this specific mortar that the witness has just

 9    referred to, the OTP has been notified.  I can't remember whether it was

10    proofing notes, the part about opening fire, but I do know that we

11    informed them about that mortar.

12            JUDGE PARKER:  The point of the objection is that there was no

13    notification of firing, and from what you're saying, that appears to be

14    the position.

15            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] In all likelihood, Your Honour, but I

16    believe my colleague has the proofing notes, and that's exactly what we

17    informed them about.  I know about the mortar for sure.  I'm not sure if

18    we put anything about the actual firing from that mortar there.  I don't

19    have the notes with me now, but if my learned friend and colleague could

20    just go through them, I'm sure she'll see that this is exactly what we are

21    talking about and what we informed the OTP about.

22            JUDGE PARKER:  That is precisely the point that she is making,

23    that she has them and there is no mention of firing.

24            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] That must be so, Your Honour, because

25    we did write that down.

Page 7707

 1            JUDGE PARKER:  You realise you run the danger of having evidence

 2    excluded, evidence that you may think is particularly material?

 3            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I do realise that, Your Honour.  Maybe

 4    then I should accept that I have made a mistake, because it was down to me

 5    to inform my colleagues from the OTP about that particular proofing

 6    session.  There may have been an error, after all, because I did go

 7    through the corrected proofing notes, revised proofing notes, and I

 8    included a very important bit of information in relation to something that

 9    the OTP wants to know about, something that was not included in the first

10    proofing notes, something in relation to this witness's testimony, and

11    that was operations against the Old Town, specifically.

12                          [Trial Chamber confers]

13            JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber proposes to admit the evidence on this

14    occasion, Mr. Rodic, despite the objection, noting that there was at least

15    expressed notification about the weapon itself, though not the firing.

16    But this has become increasingly a problem, and we must put you on notice

17    that we are going to take a more positive and direct view about it for the

18    future.  So I would suggest that you take particular care from now on.

19            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.  Can

20    I please have the usher's assistance now.  I would like to show the

21    witness the map that was marked P10.

22       Q.   Can we please put the map there where we can see the position of

23    the Old Town, as centrally as possible.

24            Mr. Drljan, can you please help by positioning this map in the

25    centre so that we can see this part to the right of the town.  Can you

Page 7708

 1    point on this map the position that you were at.  Take the pointer,

 2    please, and show the position on the map.  Not on the monitor; on the map,

 3    Mr. Drljan.

 4       A.   Bosanka Zarkovica.  This is where I was.

 5       Q.   Can you please show us where Zarkovica is on this map.  Where is

 6    it written "Zarkovica"?  Can you please take a look.

 7       A.   To the north-east of Dubrovnik, but I don't see the name

 8    Zarkovica.  At least, I can't find it.  Here is Strincjera, Srdj, Bosanka,

 9    so Zarkovica should be somewhere here.

10       Q.   Can we please take the next map, P11.

11       A.   This is where Zarkovica is.

12       Q.   And that was the vantage point that you observed the Old Town

13    from?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Can we please have map P11 placed before the witness.

16            I apologise.  It's my mistake.  We need actually the map P13.

17    P13.  I apologise once again to the usher and to the Honourable Chamber.

18    Could you please push it upwards a little bit.  That's right.

19            Mr. Drljan, do you recognise what this map shows?

20       A.   Yes, I do.

21       Q.   Can you tell us the position that you had just described, first

22    the houses that you saw.  Could you indicate them on the map.

23       A.   Approximately this house.  I cannot say 100 per cent that I'm sure

24    whether this one or this one.

25       Q.   What are you pointing particularly?

Page 7709

 1       A.   The house where this black smoke was spewing out.

 2       Q.   Where did you see the mortar that you had just described?

 3       A.   Approximately here.

 4       Q.   Mr. Drljan --

 5       A.   Approximately somewhere in the middle of the Stradun street.

 6       Q.   Could you please turn the map in relation to the position of

 7    Zarkovica from where you were observing the town.  So put the map in that

 8    position, please.

 9       A.   This is -- I was looking in this direction, and the mortar was

10    brought out from this building, approximately.

11       Q.   Which part of the Old Town do you see viewing from Zarkovica?

12       A.   I can see the whole town from Zarkovica.

13       Q.   Where is the harbour?

14       A.   It's to the left, viewing from Zarkovica.

15       Q.   Can you now indicate on the map the buildings that you saw.

16       A.   This building here, where this black mark is, I saw this black

17    smoke coming out of this building, and it went first toward the Stradun

18    and then lifted up above the roofs.

19       Q.   Can you hold on, please, a second.  The building that you are

20    showing now is the map that has this black suitcase form on it.  Where was

21    the other building that you saw on fire?

22       A.   It was somewhere here.

23       Q.   Can you tell us the number, please, if you can be more specific,

24    or the name of the street, if you can read it.

25       A.   I don't know the streets of Dubrovnik.

Page 7710

 1       Q.   Can we indicate precisely on the map this location so that we can

 2    have better orientation.

 3       A.   It is from Od Puca, in this circle, one of the buildings was on

 4    fire.

 5       Q.   So that was the second building that you saw on fire?

 6       A.   Yes.  But the smoke was lighter, kind of bluish, and I saw flames

 7    as well.

 8       Q.   Can you tell us if you saw anything else in the Old Town?

 9       A.   Later, after this mortar fired one shell, and after it had been

10    pulled into the gate --

11       Q.   Can you show us the position of this mortar now?

12       A.   The second one that I saw?

13       Q.   You spoke about one mortar.

14       A.   It was approximately here, halfway down the Stradun street.

15            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I object, Your Honour.  This material is not in

16    the 65 ter information given at all.  There is no reference to another

17    mortar.  There is only reference to one mortar being seen by this witness.

18    And this is completely additional information which goes beyond 65 ter

19    material.

20            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness corrected

21    himself.  I just wanted him to show the position of this -- the one mortar

22    that he had mentioned.  He made a mistake.  There was no second mortar,

23    nor was there any mention of its position.  So I wanted him to indicate

24    the mortar that he had seen on the Stradun and that he had testified to.

25       Q.   So can you please show us the position where you saw the mortar

Page 7711

 1    that you had mentioned earlier.

 2       A.   To the right of this black rectangle there's a row of buildings

 3    there, and the mortar was pulled out from a large gate to the Stradun

 4    street.  It fired one shell and it was pulled back into the building.

 5       Q.   So that is slightly to the right from this black rectangle, and

 6    across is the street Izmedju Polaca; is that right?  It runs parallel with

 7    the Stradun street.

 8       A.   Yes.  Behind that building is the Iza Polaca [as interpreted]

 9    street.  That is what I see now on the map.

10       Q.   Mr. Drljan, tell us, did you see anything else in the Old Town?

11       A.   Later I saw flares behind the Orlando column.

12       Q.   Can you show that on the map, please.

13       A.   This -- behind this column, I saw flares, which means that fire

14    had been opened from some kind of firing piece.

15       Q.   Did you see the weapon itself?

16       A.   No, I didn't, because it was hidden behind the Orlando column.

17    But I did see the flares as a result of a shell firing.

18       Q.   So you have indicated the position behind the Orlando column?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Apart from that, did you see anything else in the Old Town?

21       A.   I saw a couple of our shells landing very close to the place where

22    this mortar had been pulled out earlier.

23       Q.   You saw the mortars landing, if I understood you correctly?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Where did it land?

Page 7712

 1   

 2   

 3   

 4   

 5   

 6   

 7   

 8   

 9   

10   

11   

12    Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13    French transcripts correspond

14   

15   

16   

17   

18   

19   

20   

21   

22   

23   

24   

25   

Page 7713

 1       A.   On the Stradun street.

 2       Q.   Can you please show us the approximate position of the landing.

 3       A.   On the street itself.  It's very close to the building from which

 4    the mortar had been pulled out and then pulled in.

 5       Q.   So it is also the position to the right from the black rectangle

 6    and opposite it is the Od Puca street which runs parallel with the

 7    Stradun?

 8       A.   Yes, that's correct.

 9       Q.   Is that all that you saw in the Old Town on that day?

10       A.   That is all.  I also saw another flame -- smoke, but I don't know

11    what was the source of the smoke.  It was coming approximately from the

12    area where the harbour was, but please understand, I cannot focus exactly

13    on the position when there was a very strong wind and I couldn't see the

14    source of fire.  The wind was dispersing the smoke and I couldn't locate

15    the position exactly.

16       Q.   When you described flares that you had seen near the Orlando

17    column, you said that that was the fire flares from a weapon being fired

18    from.  How do you know that?

19       A.   I'm a military person.  I know how, for instance, a mortar fires,

20    and that was a flare from a mortar, which appears before the barrel of the

21    weapon, and this flare is up to one metre long.  But also I could deduce

22    that it was a mortar also according to other elements.  It couldn't have

23    been a gun, which has a straight trajectory, whereas mortar has a curved

24    trajectory.  So if they wanted to target our forces, they could only do

25    that with a mortar or with a Howitzer.

Page 7714

 1       Q.   So that is all that you saw on that day from Zarkovica?

 2       A.   Yes.  Because soon thereafter I left that position.

 3       Q.   Could you please just take your time in answering my questions.

 4            You said that you spent about an hour on that point.

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   What did you do next?

 7       A.   I returned to Kupari.  Since I didn't have a proper breakfast, I

 8    had something to eat.  And then I went to the operations centre, where I

 9    stayed until the time when I left again for Zarkovica.

10       Q.   While you were at Zarkovica that one hour that you spent there,

11    you mentioned Captain Kovacevic.  Did you see any of the senior officers

12    at Zarkovica?  Were there any of them there at Zarkovica?

13       A.   In the bunker, from where Kovacevic was commanding, I only saw his

14    communications personnel and a couple of other men whom I didn't recognise

15    because I didn't know them.  The only one that I recognised among them was

16    Kovacevic, and no one else.  Outside the bunker were a few people whom I

17    also hadn't known before.  There were lots of reservists and things like

18    that.

19       Q.   When you returned to Kupari, you said you went to the operations

20    centre, until you left again for Zarkovica.  When was that, approximately,

21    when you left again for Zarkovica?

22       A.   I went to Zarkovica again slightly before 1400 hours.  I think I

23    arrived there at 1400 hours.

24       Q.   While you were in Kupari, did you spend the whole time at the

25    operations centre?

Page 7715

 1       A.   Yes, I did.

 2       Q.   Could you please show the witness the Exhibit D96.

 3            Mr. Drljan, on page 67 of this log, or diary, we have entries

 4    relating to the 6th December 1991; is that correct?

 5       A.   Yes, it is.

 6       Q.   Can you recognise who made these entries here on this page?

 7       A.   I can.

 8       Q.   Could you please tell me who it was that made these entries.

 9       A.   The first one at 0500 hours was made by Sikimic, Vlado Sikimic,

10    and at 5.30 again it is him.

11       Q.   How come you know he did it?

12       A.   I can recognise his handwriting, and also here are his initials,

13    VS.

14       Q.   Do you know perhaps who made the following entries?

15       A.   6.50, 7.05, 7.15, 7.30.  All those entries were made by frigate

16    Captain Kozaric.  Like 7.45 too, except that he didn't sign his name.

17    7.40, 7.45, and 7.47, that is, on this page.

18       Q.   How do you know that it's Kozaric?

19       A.   Five entries were signed.  Two he did not sign, but it's the same

20    handwriting and I can recognise his handwriting.

21       Q.   Tell me, please:  Did you make any entries in this diary; and if

22    so, could you please tell me which ones are yours.  On page 68, did you

23    write anything there?  Are there any entries of yours there?

24       A.   Just a moment, please.  On page 68, there are no entries that I

25    made.

Page 7716

 1       Q.   What about page 69?

 2       A.   On page 69, there is the entry of 12.25.

 3       Q.   So did you make that entry at that time?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   When returning from Zarkovica?

 6       A.   Yes.  I was there, and I made this entry.  It can be seen that

 7    Kozaric made most of the entries; however, at that moment he was busy with

 8    something, so I made this entry.

 9       Q.   Tell me:  So you received this message from the European Mission,

10    addressed to the command of the Military Naval Sector Boka at 12.25; is

11    that right?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Could you please look at this.  This message has about three

14    paragraphs.  Please look at the last sentence in the first paragraph.  It

15    says:  "At the same time, we denounce any provocative actions from Srdj

16    and Lapad which would be a pretext for violating the cease-fire," if I

17    read this out properly.  The next sentence:  "We state with full

18    responsibility that allegations of our force's actions have been construed

19    so as to provide an excuse for the attempt to conquer Srdj."  Is that

20    right?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   What about from the forward command post?  Was any message sent

23    from VPS Boka to Dubrovnik with such contents, stating that the Croatian

24    forces were shooting from Srdj and Lapad?

25       A.   While I was there, no such message was sent.  I came even earlier.

Page 7717

 1    And also, it is not written in the diary.

 2       Q.   If such a message did exist, could it have been sent from some

 3    other place?

 4       A.   It could have been sent from the basic command post through

 5    Radio Bar or through the command of Mokosica, where we had direct

 6    communications with the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff.

 7       Q.   Tell me:  On page 69, is that the only entry that you made?

 8       A.   Yes.  On page 69, that's the only entry that I made.

 9       Q.   Are there any entries made by you on page 70?

10       A.   There are some entries that I made on that page, that is, at 1305.

11       Q.   Since there are two entries made at 1305, can you read us the one

12    that you made.

13       A.   "The order of the commander of the 9th VPS to Captain Kovacevic

14    was transmitted not to fire on the town but to act only in the immediate

15    vicinity of Srdj."  Captain warship Zec [as interpreted].

16       Q.   Can you explain what this is?

17       A.   Warship Captain Zec ordered that Kovacevic should be warned again

18    not to fire, only to fire at Srdj, and that's why it says in the

19    remark:  "Warship Captain Zec."  That is to say, that he was the source of

20    this order.

21       Q.   Tell me:  You said that about 2.00 in the afternoon, about 1400

22    hours, you went to Zarkovica again.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   What did you do there?  Did you get to Zarkovica?

25       A.   I did get to Zarkovica, to see how the situation was developing

Page 7718

 1    further.  I glanced at the old part of Dubrovnik and I saw smoke coming

 2    from several different places.  However, I was more interested in Srdj,

 3    because I saw that Kovacevic was getting ready to withdraw forces from

 4    Srdj, which I heard in passing, because I passed by and stopped at his

 5    bunker.  He was issuing orders for tanks to be prepared in order to get to

 6    Srdj, right below Srdj, and to protect this large number of tanks and,

 7    under their protection, to withdraw a large number of troops so that they

 8    would not be hurt or injured during the withdrawal.

 9       Q.   At that time, was there any firing at Srdj?

10       A.   There was, still, but the shells were few and far between.  The

11    intensity was not like it was before.  Every now and then a shell would

12    fall.

13       Q.   Tell me:  In addition to Kovacevic, were there any other officers

14    at Zarkovica?

15       A.   I didn't see any other officers from the command, because they are

16    the only ones that I know.  It was the same people who I saw there in the

17    morning.

18       Q.   Did you stay any longer at Zarkovica?

19       A.   I was there until before dusk; that is to say, the sun was still

20    up.  I saw the withdrawal of Kovacevic's forces from Srdj, the

21    protection -- under the protection of the tanks, and when he withdrew his

22    very last soldier, I decided, because I knew that there had been

23    casualties, I had heard about that, I decided to go to Bosanka where one

24    of his companies was to talk to these people a bit.

25       Q.   Did you actually go to Bosanka?

Page 7719

 1       A.   I did go to Bosanka.  I entered the building where most of his

 2    soldiers were - from his company, that is - and I spoke to them.

 3       Q.   Did you talk to the soldiers who had been at Srdj?

 4       A.   I talked to the soldiers.  All of them had been on Srdj at that

 5    day, that is to say, with a view to taking Srdj.  I talked to them, and I

 6    talked to one officer.  I don't know his name.

 7       Q.   Did the soldiers tell you something, or did you tell them

 8    something?

 9       A.   I came there.  I greeted them.  But they first said that I was the

10    only officer from the command who came there to see them.  And they

11    started complaining to me, and they were telling me, angrily, that they

12    needed 130-millimetre artillery, 130-millimetre guns, that they were

13    supposed to get such support and they did not get it.  In their words,

14    Jokic did not give this support, although it had been agreed upon,

15    allegedly on the previous day.

16            So they were very angry on account of that, because they thought

17    that if they had had this support, they would not have lost their comrades

18    who were killed that day.

19       Q.   How long did you stay at Bosanka?  Until when?

20       A.   I stayed at Bosanka until dusk.  So sometime after 1600 hours.

21    After 1600 hours, I set out from Bosanka back to Kupari.

22       Q.   Did you return to the operations centre?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Tell us, please:  On that day - that is to say, the last page we

25    looked at was page 72 of the log - did you make any other entries into the

Page 7720

 1    war logbook on that day?

 2       A.   It is precisely on page 72.  When I returned from Srdj, I did not

 3    put the time.  This happened sometime between 1630 and 1810.  This is a

 4    radiogram, or rather, a telegram.

 5       Q.   Please tell me:  What is the message that you entered?

 6       A.   Do you want me to read it out?

 7       Q.   Tell me:  When does it come?  After which message?

 8       A.   After 1627.

 9       Q.   Is it what it says here, "Crisis Staff Dubrovnik for KVPS Boka"?

10       A.   Yes.  Yes, that's my handwriting.

11       Q.   Tell me:  Are there any other entries by the end of that day,

12    until the end of that day?  Could you please look at the logbook further

13    on.  That is to say, until the end of the 6th of December.

14       A.   I'm looking now.  No.  No.  There were no other entries of mine

15    after this one about the Crisis Staff sending a telegram to the VPS.

16       Q.   Tell me:  While you were at the operations centre on that day -

17    the time that you spent there, that is - did you perhaps have any contacts

18    with the 2nd Operational Group?

19       A.   No, I did not.

20       Q.   Tell me -- I'm sorry.  I'm going to withdraw this question.

21            In the morning, around 10 past or 15 past 7.00, you said that Zec

22    called you and he issued you an order to go to Zarkovica to convey a

23    message to Kovacevic; is that right?

24       A.   An order.

25       Q.   An order to Kovacevic.  And at 1305, you also made an entry to the

Page 7721

 1    effect that an order should be conveyed to Captain Kovacevic not to fire

 2    at the town itself but only at Srdj, and this was ordered to you by --

 3       A.   Captain Zec.

 4       Q.   -- warship Captain Zec?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Could you please just wait for me to finish my question and then

 7    start answering.

 8       A.   This order that I entered there was actually made by warship

 9    Captain Zec.

10       Q.   So in both cases, did you contact Captain Zec by telephone?

11       A.   Yes, only by telephone.

12       Q.   On the 6th of December, did you see warship Captain Zec at all?

13       A.   I don't remember having seen him.

14       Q.   Tell me, please:  At any point in time, did anybody from the

15    command of the military naval sector ask you anything about what happened

16    on the 6th of December orally or did you write about this?

17       A.   You mean after this ended?

18       Q.   Yes.  On that day, the 6th of December, and after the 6th of

19    December.

20       A.   Nobody asked me about what had happened, and I did not give any

21    statements in writing or orally about that particular event.

22       Q.   Thank you.

23            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have concluded the

24    examination-in-chief.  Thank you.

25            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

Page 7722

 1

class=Section2>

            Ms. Mahindaratne.

 2            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                          Cross-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne:

 4       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Drljan.

 5       A.   Good afternoon.

 6       Q.   Now, you testified today that on 6th morning you were ordered by

 7    Captain Zec to go to Zarkovica.  What time was this?

 8       A.   Between 10 past and 15 past 7.00 in the morning.

 9       Q.   And did you take steps to record that order that you were to

10    convey to Captain Kovacevic in the war diary?

11       A.   I did not enter that particular piece of information into the war

12    diary because I hurried up to Zarkovica, to find the driver, so that he

13    would take me up there, and also to put on some warmer clothes because it

14    was cold.  But I do remember that order very well, because I had no reason

15    to go to Zarkovica unless I had received orders to do that.

16       Q.   But as you stated on Friday, all orders, all activities, matters

17    relating to your forces, activities of the enemy forces, are all recorded

18    in the war diary.  That's correct, isn't it?

19       A.   It is correct that I said that all important events, woundings,

20    killings, movements of troops, should be recorded in the logbook.  But I

21    did not say that the movements of a particular frigate captain who had

22    received certain orders should be recorded in the logbook, although such

23    an entry can be made as well.  But it is not a mistake if this kind of

24    entry is not made.

25       Q.   The entry that you made at 1305, where you say:  "The order of the

Page 7723

 1    command of the 9th VPS to Captain Kovacevic to cease firing on the town

 2    but to act only on the immediate vicinity of Srdj, has been transmitted,"

 3    which is at page 70 of the war diary.  At what time did you get that order

 4    from Captain Zec?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   My question to you is:  At what time did you get this second

 7    order, or is it a reference to your previous order that you have recorded

 8    here at 1305?

 9       A.   These are not the same being repeated.  The first order I received

10    in the morning was to go straight there and to convey the order to

11    Kovacevic, and here I'm being told to do it by telephone, via

12    communications.  So that's what I did.  I wrote down when I conveyed it.

13       Q.   So this second time you telephoned Captain Kovacevic on Zarkovica

14    and conveyed the order to him?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   So according to your testimony, you have now conveyed to Captain

17    Kovacevic two orders prohibiting him from firing on the Old Town?

18       A.   The first order explicitly prohibited him from firing on the Old

19    Town, and the second order only says the town, which means the entire town

20    of Dubrovnik, including Gruz also, and other areas, but that he could only

21    fire on Srdj.  In my opinion, this was an order that was to ensure a

22    cease-fire, only on Srdj, for as long as it took the forces to pull out.

23    I conveyed what I had understood.  But my understanding was that action

24    would be stopped.

25       Q.   So according to the second order, it's not only against the Old

Page 7724

 1    Town, but he has been ordered to cease fire against the entire Dubrovnik,

 2    except for Srdj?  That is what the second order refers to?

 3       A.   Yes.  You have it in writing.  I believe that was the meaning.

 4       Q.   And both these orders were given to you to be conveyed to Captain

 5    Kovacevic by Captain Zec?

 6       A.   The first order in the morning was sent directly to me and I was

 7    in charge of going to Zarkovica.  The second order was addressed to any

 8    officer at the forward command post who happened to be near the phone at

 9    the time.  It could as well have been Kozaric or Sikimic or anyone else.

10    Whoever answers the phone is told what the order is about.

11       Q.   My question was the source of this order at that time, and even in

12    the morning, was Captain Zec?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Now, in the morning when you were specifically asked to go to

15    Zarkovica and convey the message to Captain Kovacevic, you were in fact

16    asked this because you were a senior officer of the 9th VPS, in fact, at

17    the level of lieutenant colonel?

18       A.   Yes.  First a major and then the colonel and lieutenant colonel.

19    There were two senior officers there, and one lower-ranking officer,

20    Sikimic, who at the time was captain first class.

21       Q.   Mr. Drljan, I'm asking you for your rank.  I shall be grateful if

22    you could confine your response to the question.

23            My question was:  You were being sent to Zarkovica to order

24    Captain Kovacevic not to fire on the Old Town because of your senior rank.

25    You were at the level of lieutenant colonel.

Page 7725

 1   

 2   

 3   

 4   

 5   

 6   

 7   

 8    

 9   

10   

11   

12    Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13    French transcripts correspond

14   

15   

16   

17   

18   

19   

20   

21   

22   

23   

24   

25   

Page 7726

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And Captain Kovacevic necessarily was a subordinate officer to

 3    you?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   I'm not talking about direct subordination, but certainly in terms

 6    of rank-wise, you were senior to, in terms of rank, to Captain Kovacevic?

 7       A.   My rank was more senior, and that would have constituted a reason

 8    for a senior officer to go and to order what Admiral Jokic had ordered.

 9    But there was another reason why I was the one to go and not someone else.

10    Namely, at the peacetime command of the Boka naval sector, I was working

11    there, while Sikimic, for example, came.

12       Q.   Please, could you please confine your response to my question,

13    because we are under time constraints.  My question is about ranks.  In

14    terms of ranks, you were a senior officer, or your rank was senior to that

15    of Captain Kovacevic; correct?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And so when you went to Zarkovica, in addition to your senior

18    rank, you were also carrying an order from the command of the 9th VPS,

19    instructing Captain Kovacevic not to fire on the Old Town?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And you conveyed that order to Captain Kovacevic on Zarkovica?

22       A.   Yes, I did convey it to him.

23       Q.   And he clearly indicated to you that he understood your

24    instructions?

25       A.   Unequivocally and clearly.

Page 7727

 1       Q.   Within the next hour, while you observed, you said you saw two

 2    shells falling on the Old Town, a clear breach of the very orders you

 3    conveyed to Captain Kovacevic just within the hour?

 4       A.   I saw just one shell, as I said, some time ago, just one shell.

 5    There was one out-coming shell and then one incoming shell.  In both

 6    cases, we are looking at a single shell.

 7       Q.   Mr. Drljan, your -- what you have said previously has been

 8    recorded in the transcript, and what you said was that you observed two

 9    shells falling on the Old Town while you sat at that low wall and watched.

10      So whether it's one or two, my point is:  You conveyed to Captain

11    Kovacevic an order from the command not to fire on the Old Town, and while

12    you were yourself on Zarkovica, in your very presence, that order is

13    breached.  That is correct, isn't it?

14       A.   That's correct.

15       Q.   And you nevertheless stand there and watch for -- watched the

16    activity for a while and then go back to Kupari and have your breakfast,

17    in the face of that clear insubordination?

18       A.   I said that one shell had fallen.  After their shell had been

19    fired.  Now, if you could please find me a man anywhere on this planet who

20    will turn a blind eye to such an attack where his own men might be killed.

21    There's a position that's being fired from and now this man will resist

22    returning fire.  If you can find a man like that, and that was the reason

23    that I did not pay attention, especially because we are looking at only

24    one shell that was fired, a single shell.

25       Q.   Let us not argue about the number of shells, Mr. Drljan, due to

Page 7728

 1    lack of time.  But are you aware that attacking the Old Town was

 2    considered a criminal act?

 3       A.   I'm aware of that, but it's also a criminal act for any forces to

 4    be positioned inside it.

 5       Q.   Please confine your response to my question.  My question was as

 6    to whether you were aware as to --

 7       A.   Yes, I am aware of that.

 8       Q.   And in your presence, when an order prohibiting attack on the Old

 9    Town, which is considered a criminal act, is breached, why did you not

10    take any steps to report that act of insubordination to a senior officer

11    or the senior command?

12       A.   I did say that when I came back to Kupari; however, neither the

13    commander nor Zec were there, and I didn't know where they were.  I asked

14    at the forward command post about Zec's whereabouts, but I couldn't find

15    him, because he was away somewhere, on the ground.

16       Q.   To whom did you report it to?

17       A.   I didn't report it to anyone.  It wasn't my duty to report that to

18    anyone, with the exception of Zec or Admiral Jokic.  However, neither were

19    present.  I asked where they were, and when I was told that no one knew

20    their whereabouts, I simply gave it up.  I didn't tell anyone that --

21       Q.   So when you observe a criminal act being committed in breach of

22    orders which you personally conveyed to the subordinate officer, you don't

23    take any steps at least to make an entry somewhere.  Is that what you're

24    saying?

25       A.   I tried to inform Zec or Jokic, but I didn't find them.  There was

Page 7729

 1    no one who had authority to give any order, nor did I have sufficient

 2    authority to order Kovacevic to cease fire.  Because there was no firing

 3    after that.  One shell had been fired.  The shell fell, and there was no

 4    firing after that, at least not while I was present.  A shell is fired at

 5    a single point in time, and then if there are no more shells following,

 6    there is nothing for me to do.  But Jokic and Zec later did find out what

 7    had been done.  It wasn't up to me.  I didn't have sufficient authority to

 8    stop that.

 9       Q.   Do you know that more than one shell has been fired on the

10    Old Town on 6 December from the positions of the 3rd Battalion?  Did you

11    find it out at least later on, if not within that one hour you were on

12    Zarkovica?

13       A.   I did find out later on.

14       Q.   And in that context, did you take steps to file a report or

15    even -- verbal report to any superior officer that you yourself was privy

16    to the 3rd Battalion shelling the Old Town, albeit it being one shell that

17    you observed?

18       A.   I told Kozaric, who wrote a report for Jokic, reporting on the

19    activities that were undertaken on that day.

20       Q.   So you are aware that a report has been submitted to Admiral Jokic

21    on the activities of the 3rd Battalion which were undertaken on the 6th of

22    December, based on information that had been provided to the operations

23    centre?

24       A.   Every day, the operations centre submits a report to its superior

25    commander.  On that day, Kozaric was the one to write the report.

Page 7730

 1       Q.   Now, considering your senior rank, when you returned to the

 2    operations centre from Zarkovica, did you take steps to inform the

 3    Croatian forces or any international observers of what you observed in the

 4    Old Town, that is to say, the mortar that you said you saw in the

 5    Old Town?

 6       A.   No.  I took no steps, because I did not have authority to take any

 7    steps on my own before conferring - that's anyone from the operations

 8    centre conferring - with the commander or the Chief of Staff.

 9       Q.   Do you always follow or take permission from the commander or

10    Chief of Staff before doing anything that you might think prudent?

11       A.   That depends on how difficult a task one is facing.  In peacetime

12    conditions, there are quite many things that I can do on my own.  However,

13    in wartime conditions, when human lives are at stake, on both sides, then

14    it is not up to me to make these calls.

15       Q.   Did you consult the commander or the Chief of Staff when you

16    decided to go to Bosanka in the afternoon?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Did you consult the commander or the Chief of Staff when you

19    decided to go again to Zarkovica in the afternoon?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Why did you remain on Zarkovica for one hour, having conveyed

22    Captain Zec's order to Captain Kovacevic?  Were you curious to observe and

23    to see what was happening with regard to the Old Town?  Is that why you

24    perched yourself on that specific location overlooking the Old Town?

25       A.   Of course, when I came there, I was not ordered to go back, nor

Page 7731

 1    was I given a deadline by which I should have been back from Zarkovica.

 2    So since no deadline had been set, I stayed and watched some things

 3    happening.

 4       Q.   And you saw Maljutkas being fired on the Old Town from Zarkovica,

 5    didn't you?

 6       A.   I saw no Maljutkas there.  I can't say there were none there.  I'm

 7    just saying that I didn't see any.

 8       Q.   You were aware that there was Maljutka launchers on Zarkovica?

 9       A.   I was aware that Maljutkas were a part of the weapons in

10    possession of our forces, but not at Zarkovica.  I really don't know

11    whether they had Maljutkas at Zarkovica or not.

12       Q.   So you don't know whether they had Maljutkas on Zarkovica.  You

13    didn't see, for instance, when you went to Zarkovica, Maljutka launchers?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   And apart from this one shell that you claim now - earlier on you

16    said two - you didn't see any other mortar shells falling on the Old Town

17    from JNA positions?

18       A.   No, with the exception of that one shell.  And I saw one of their

19    shells.  And I told you also that I had seen flashes of light behind the

20    Orlando column.  I never said two shells.  I'm not sure why that was

21    recorded, because that's just not right.  They fired one shell.  They

22    pulled a mortar out, and soon after, our own shell fell on the Stradun.

23    And then after that, I saw flashes of light behind the Orlando column.

24    I'm talking about flashes of light because I'm not sure if it was the

25    shells or where they fell.  So that was my statement.  That was my

Page 7732

 1    testimony, and that's precisely what I said.  I'm not sure what and why

 2    it's reflected in the transcript.

 3       Q.   Now, where exactly was this mortar on Stradun?  You say you

 4    pointed a place.  But could you identify that place by name from where you

 5    were or did you just see it somewhere on Stradun?

 6       A.   I'm not familiar with street names in Dubrovnik.  I know it more

 7    as a town.  Even my own town, I don't know every single street.  I know

 8    that the main street in Dubrovnik is called Stradun and that it was midway

 9    down the Stradun that a mortar came out and fired a single shell.  After

10    that, nearby, in approximately the same spot, our shell fell.  Now, I

11    can't give you the exact measures, nor am I familiar with the streets.

12    The only street I am familiar with is the Stradun because that's the main

13    street, and I know the Orlando column because that's a famous monument

14    there.

15       Q.   And you saw this from Zarkovica, which means at approximately

16    2.500 to 3.000 metres away from the Old Town?

17       A.   I said, I pointed out, if you remember, that there was a strong

18    wind on that day and the weather was clear, visibility excellent.  Even at

19    4.000 metres, you could tell that a mortar was firing, let alone 2.000

20    metres.  It's only very easy.

21       Q.   And did you manage to determine what the calibre of that mortar

22    was which was firing from within the Old Town?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   How did you manage to pinpoint the exact location on the map, P13,

25    which was shown to you by learned counsel?  And you in fact placed the

Page 7733

 1    pointer and showed the exact position where the said mortar was, when in

 2    fact your only point of reference is that it's somewhere midway on

 3    Stradun?  In such context, how did you manage to pinpoint the exactly

 4    location on the map?

 5       A.   I'm not sure if this was interpreted at the time when I was

 6    answering a question by Defence counsel.  It was midway down the street.

 7    I'm not sure if that was translated.  I hope it was.  I did say the first

 8    time around, halfway down the street, and then there was a circle that was

 9    drawn and then they wanted the exactly location.  And I said:  Well,

10    hereabouts.  They wanted the exactly location, but I can't give the

11    exactly location.  It's an approximation.  I don't have the tools to

12    determine the exact length of the street.  I can only give you an

13    approximate idea of the whereabouts of the impact.

14       Q.   So it was roughly, you guessed the area, that's how you placed the

15    pointer and indicated.  You couldn't say the exactly location with

16    certainty?

17       A.   No one could do that.  But there was a mortar on the Stradun.

18    That's for sure.  Whether it was ten metres to the left or ten metres to

19    the right, I don't think that's really material.

20       Q.   Is that the same manner in which you identified the locations you

21    said you saw smoke emanating from?  You pointed certain -- placed your

22    pointer on the map and indicated certain positions, and by what you're

23    saying, it presupposes that in relation to those two locations also you

24    probably guessed.

25       A.   I gave you a rough idea of the whereabouts, because it has been 13

Page 7734

 1    years since I looked on.  However, I clearly remember that there was smoke

 2    there and that there was another building, also about midway down the

 3    Stradun, and that there was smoke coming out of that building's window and

 4    rising above the roof.  This is something I can never forget.  I may go

 5    wrong by the -- a dozen metres to the left or to the right, but there was

 6    smoke coming out; I'm sure about that.  As well as about that other house

 7    burning where the colour of the smoke rising out was different, and this

 8    building was in a different part of town.

 9       Q.   Now --

10            JUDGE PARKER:  Is this a new subject matter?

11            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Your Honour.  It is still -- but if it's a

12    convenient time for a break --

13            JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We will take a break and resume at five

14    minutes past 4.00.

15            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Your Honour.

16                          --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

17                          --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

18            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.

19            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20       Q.   Mr. Drljan, when you were sent to Zarkovica with the specific

21    order instructing Captain Kovacevic to -- prohibiting him to fire on the

22    Old Town, you had been sent at that hour because by this time, the

23    3rd Battalion had already been shelling the Old Town; isn't it?  That is

24    why you were specifically sent with an order instructing Captain Kovacevic

25    not to fire on the Old Town; that's correct, isn't it?

Page 7735

 1       A.   I suppose so.  Because I had received the order in Kupari.  I

 2    didn't see whether there was shelling or -- shelling or not, but I presume

 3    that's why they sent me up there.  As long as I got this order, it means

 4    that shells were falling.

 5       Q.   So when you started watching, or by the time you started watching

 6    the Old Town from the elevation, the Old Town had already been shelled,

 7    and in the midst of that activity, what you're saying is the people in the

 8    Old Town bring a mortar into Stradun, in clear vicinity of Zarkovica, and

 9    fired a mortar?  That's what you're saying?

10       A.   Yes.  I said that a mortar had been pulled out and it fired one

11    shell.  That's correct.

12       Q.   Pulled out of where?

13       A.   From a big entrance or a gate to a building.  It's in fact a big

14    wooden door covering or being positioned in the passage between two

15    buildings.  That's what we call house door.

16       Q.   And you could see this gate or door?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Now, this gate was on the northern side of the Stradun or southern

19    side of the Stradun?

20       A.   It was on the southern side of Stradun, opposite the position

21    where I was, because that's the part that I could see.  The gates on the

22    opposite side of the street I couldn't see because of the roofs.

23       Q.   And how long did it take to bring the mortar out, load it, and

24    fire?  What was the time period that this whole process took?

25       A.   About one minute.

Page 7736

 1       Q.   Are you saying that a mortar was pulled out of a gate, placed on

 2    Stradun, a shell was loaded on, and the mortar was fired within a period

 3    of one minute?

 4       A.   Yes.  Only they were not loading the shell.  You just drop it from

 5    above, and as soon as it reaches the bottom, it exploded immediately.  It

 6    doesn't take more than five seconds.

 7       Q.   Do you know, Mr. Drljan - perhaps an officer of your seniority

 8    should know - that a mortar cannot be fired from a hard surface, because

 9    the recoil -- there has to be a soft surface to absorb the recoil?  Isn't

10    that the case?  Do you know that?

11       A.   It is possible to shoot from a hard surface in exceptional cases.

12    A soft surface is desirable, but if possible, to shoot from a hard

13    surface.  I'm not an artillery expert, but I know that.

14       Q.   [Previous translation continues]... permit me to tell you that

15    there has been expert testimony led before this Trial Chamber where the

16    experts have testified that a mortar cannot be fired from a hard surface,

17    that if a mortar is to be fired from a hard surface, you have to prepare

18    the surface with a soft substance to absorb the recoil.  So an officer of

19    your seniority obviously do not seem to know this fact [sic].

20       A.   Was it possible to place a rubber pad underneath so that the

21    mortar was on the rubber pad instead of the cobblestone of the street?

22       Q.   Mr. Drljan, I'm not here to respond to your questions.  But your

23    testimony was that the mortar was pulled out of a gate placed on the

24    Stradun and fired within one minute, which obviously presupposes there is

25    no time to prepare the surface.

Page 7737

 1       A.   May I respond?

 2       Q.   Yes.  I'm asking for your response.

 3       A.   In such cases, mortars were placed, and that is what we heard

 4    through observation and saw for ourselves, that they had marked mortar

 5    positions where they had calculated firing elements at certain specific

 6    firing positions or targets on the opposite side.  So they placed mortars

 7    immediately on such positions, fire the shell, and pull the mortar away.

 8    And as I said, it may fire one shell, but it cannot fire for a longer

 9    period of time.  I presume, but I couldn't see from that distance, that

10    they had placed some soft pad underneath --

11       Q.   Mr. Drljan --

12       A.   Underneath the pedestal of the mortar.

13       Q.   You did not see such a thing; you could not see such a thing from

14    your distance?

15       A.   I couldn't see.  But I could see that mortar had fired, and that's

16    what I ascertain here with full responsibility.

17       Q.   And where did it fire to?

18       A.   In the direction of north, somewhere in the direction of Srdj.

19       Q.   Do you know that the buildings on the northern side of Stradun are

20    very high?

21       A.   They are not that high so as to preclude a shell from passing over

22    them and attacking other positions, that's for sure.

23       Q.   So your testimony is that the particular shell was fired at Srdj

24    and not Zarkovica?

25       A.   Yes, on Srdj.  Not a single shell fell on Zarkovica for as long as

Page 7738

 1   

 2   

 3   

 4   

 5   

 6   

 7   

 8   

 9   

10   

11   

12    Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13    French transcripts correspond

14   

15   

16   

17   

18   

19   

20   

21   

22   

23   

24   

25   

Page 7739

 1    I stayed there.

 2       Q.   And this whole process could be also observed along with you by

 3    the units positioned on Zarkovica?

 4       A.   Yes, they could.  If anyone was paying attention, if they were not

 5    busy with their own activities, if they just watched in that direction.

 6    But if they turned away, they maybe could not have seen it.

 7       Q.   And you know -- do you know how a Maljutka is operated, that a

 8    Maljutka is a projectile which is guided by the operator to the target,

 9    and as such, a precision weapon?

10       A.   Yes, I know.

11       Q.   And therefore, if a mortar was visible on Stradun for that period,

12    it could have been easily neutralised with one Maljutka projectile, isn't

13    that the case, from Zarkovica?

14       A.   It could have been neutralised, but the mortar was pulled back

15    inside immediately.

16       Q.   Mr. Drljan, don't you think it would be quite risky for a mortar

17    to be placed on Stradun in full vicinity of Zarkovica, especially

18    considering that Zarkovica has Maljutka launchers?  Won't it be considered

19    as suicidal?

20       A.   Their principle was:  Fire and find shelter immediately.  And that

21    is a possible concept.

22       Q.   Now, you said you observed the shell from the OG positions,

23    2nd Operational [sic] position or the 3rd Battalion positions being fired

24    on the Old Town.  Didn't you consider your presence there, your continuous

25    presence there and even your subsequent visit there, could be considered

Page 7740

 1    as encouragement by those units towards the activities, especially

 2    considering that you did not take any measures to have the order not to

 3    fire on the Old Town implemented and enforced?

 4       A.   I was very accurate when I said that I had been sent by the

 5    warship Captain Zec upon Admiral Jokic's order to convey the order, not to

 6    undertake any measures.  While I was there leaning on the wall, another

 7    order could have arrived that I had not been aware of, and it was not my

 8    place to interfere with the progress of the struggle in order to avoid

 9    bearing influence that I possibly could take blame later for.  So I didn't

10    want to interfere.  I just did what I had been ordered to do.

11       Q.   When you came back to the operations centre, did you report about

12    what you observed in the Old Town, that is, this particular mortar that

13    fired and the flashes you saw?  Did you report it to the operations centre

14    or your command?

15       A.   I was not duty operations officer, nor was it my duty to report.

16    Reports are written towards the end of the day, and --

17       Q.   Mr. Drljan, please.  I'm not talking about written reports.  Did

18    you report, either verbally or by just -- in a casual way, did you report

19    to anybody that you saw a mortar in the Old Town and you saw these flashes

20    that you spoke of today?

21       A.   I told that to Sikimic and Kozaric, as soon as I entered, and I

22    told them that for their information.  Kozaric was already on the phone.

23    He was receiving orders.  He was very busy.  I don't know if he had heard

24    me or not.  I believe he did.  I said that I saw a mortar and that our

25    forces hit the Stradun with one shell.

Page 7741

 1       Q.   What did the shell do?  Did that shell damage the Stradun or the

 2    structures around Stradun?  What did that JNA shell that you observed

 3    falling on Stradun do in terms of damage?

 4       A.   After that, I took my binoculars and I didn't see any damage,

 5    because this was a very hard surface made of stone, and the shell

 6    dispersed.  Whether there were any broken windows in the vicinity, I

 7    couldn't see that, because one couldn't see that.

 8       Q.   So a shell falls or impacts on a particular point and you don't

 9    observe any damage at all?  That's what you're saying here?

10       A.   Yes.  That's what I said.  I didn't notice any damage, because it

11    fell on a hard, stone surface, and it burst into fragments.  It fell right

12    on the Stradun, did not hit any of the buildings.  And I said to myself,

13    "That was a good hit."  Because that is the position where formerly the

14    Croatian mortar had been.  And after that, this mortar never appeared

15    again.

16       Q.   So you are in fact -- you were condoning this particular attack on

17    the Old Town, when you said, "That was a good hit."

18       A.   I said that from the point of view of the precision of the hit.

19    Maybe the Croats would characterise that as a good hit.  That did not mean

20    that I condoned it.

21       Q.   Did you ensure when you got back to the operations centre that the

22    information you conveyed to Kozaric and the other person was recorded in

23    the war diary, the logbook?

24       A.   It was recorded in the war log, certain operations carried out by

25    units.  And I didn't think it appropriate or necessary to record one

Page 7742

 1    mortar hit.

 2       Q.   My question is with regard to the mortar that you observed in the

 3    Old Town.  Did you ensure that this information was recorded?

 4       A.   I said that to Kozaric, and this information should have been

 5    included in the evening report.  I presume that's what happened.  I never

 6    checked anyone who was in charge or whose rank was superior to mine.

 7            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May the witness be shown D96, please.

 8       Q.   So while that document is being shown - and that is the war diary

 9    you've already taken a look at - would you please examine the entries for

10    6 December and tell us as to whether you can find a single entry as to the

11    presence of a mortar in the Old Town on 6 December.  Now, you testified

12    that all enemy activity, enemy positions and such information is recorded

13    in the war diary.  So that presupposes that this item of information

14    should be in fact recorded in the war diary, if in fact it was true.

15       A.   That was true.  Now, why it was not recorded in the war log, I

16    don't know, because I did not have the war log on me to register this as

17    soon as I saw it.

18       Q.   Mr. Drljan, as an operations officer yourself, as a person who

19    himself has made entries in this war diary, and as a person who claims to

20    have seen this mortar in the Old Town himself, would it not have logically

21    followed that you'd have this piece of information entered in this war

22    diary if it was true?

23       A.   I saw this before midday, when I returned, the logbook had already

24    been filled for that period of time.  I said this to Kozaric.  He could

25    have made that entry, but he didn't.  I did not deem it appropriate to

Page 7743

 1    record something in the war logbook that had happened several hours before

 2    that, because you can see that all the different times are there in proper

 3    sequence.  And it reflects everything that happened on that day.  Not

 4    every little detail, but, anyway, there is an entry where it says how many

 5    shells were fired from a particular position of ours.

 6       Q.   Now, you say that all entries are entered in chronological

 7    sequence and that's why you could not have this particular information

 8    entered into the war diary.  Would you please examine the entries relevant

 9    to 6 December.  And I'm drawing your attention to the entry on page 67 at

10    7.15.  Do you see that at 7.15, one hour, 15 minutes afterwards, there is

11    an entry to this effect.  I'm referring to page 67.

12            On page 67, there is an entry at 7.15:  "Positions on Strincjera

13    were hit from Srdj around 6 hours with Zoljas and MB-82."  So here is an

14    entry made at 7.15 which relates to an event that took place, or occurred

15    at 6.00 in the morning.  And it has been entered after three entries or --

16    I'm sorry, two entries which have been made --

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   -- with regard to events that happened much after.  So your

19    explanation about logical sequence or chronological sequence does not seem

20    to hold in view of this document itself, isn't it, Mr. Drljan?  In fact,

21    there was no prohibition or no bar whatsoever for you to enter that item

22    of information, at whatever time, in this war diary, if in fact it was

23    true?

24       A.   Nothing prevented me from entering that information, even later

25    on, subsequently.  But I did not deem it appropriate to make that kind of

Page 7744

 1    entry, referring to one shell only.  You see that I did not refer to their

 2    firing of a shell or our firing of a shell, neither.  Because on that day,

 3    there were so many shells that were exchanged between our side and the

 4    Croatian side that this one shell was not all that important.  That's why

 5    I did not deem it necessary to make that kind of entry subsequently.  I

 6    just said what I saw.

 7       Q.   Mr. Drljan, can you please turn to page 61.  That is in the entry

 8    in relation to 4th December 1991.  At 1833, you made an entry that on Srdj

 9    a transporter was noticed.  "No contact."  That's your entry.  That's your

10    entry, isn't it?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And you --

13       A.   Zdravkovic told me about that.  I wrote down what he reported.

14       Q.   And so such information that a transporter is noticed on Srdj is

15    deemed important enough to get into this document, but a mortar observed

16    in the Old Town in the course of combat is not deemed important to get

17    into this document?  That's what your testimony is?

18       A.   I received this piece of information with the obligation to write

19    it down, because that could have been a preparation for something, I don't

20    know what for.  But anyway, we were duty-bound to record every piece of

21    information we received by telephone.

22            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May the witness be shown D65.  Let that

23    document be there.  D65, please.

24       Q.   Now, Mr. Drljan, you said that it's possible that this information

25    could have got into the report, a report perhaps submitted for the day.

Page 7745

 1    Could you please examine this document that has just been given to you.  I

 2    appreciate that you may not have seen this before.  It is a document sent?

 3       A.   No, I haven't this document until now.  And I've already said that

 4    it is possible, which is not to say that it was recorded too.

 5       Q.   Would you please note that this document, which is a report sent

 6    by the forward command post Kupari to the First Administration for General

 7    Simonovic, titled "action report of the 3rd Battalion on Srdj, 6 December

 8    1991."  There is no reference -- and this document, Mr. Drljan, is a

 9    document which has been tendered by the Defence in evidence.  It does not

10    contain a single reference to any weapons in the Old Town on 6 December

11    1991.  Do you notice that?

12       A.   I have to read it first.

13            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

14            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Petrovic.

15            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave.  We have already had

16    a discussion with regard to this document once, in terms of the heading

17    that goes above the words "Simonovic," et cetera, and we all noted that

18    there was a mistake in the translation.  And I thought that we had all

19    ascertained that.  But it seems to me that my learned friend did not note

20    that.  So I would like to draw her attention once again to the type of

21    report that this is.

22            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

23            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

24       Q.   Mr. Drljan, would you please read out the title of the report,

25    please, for the record.

Page 7746

 1       A.   "Report on the action of the 3rd Battalion, 472nd Naval Landing

 2    Brigade."  This is a mistake.  This is not motorised brigade.  It is naval

 3    brigade.  "Against Srdj on the 6th of December, 1991."  That's the name --

 4    that's the heading of the document, rather.  Is that what you wanted?

 5       Q.   It should be report on the action of the --

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 8       Q.   [Previous translation continues]... report on the action of the

 9    3rd Battalion of the 472nd Motorised Brigade.  Should it be -- should it

10    be corrected in that manner?  Not naval brigade?

11       A.   This is a naval landing brigade, not a motorised brigade.  I know

12    that brigade.

13       Q.   Let's not argue on that, Mr. Drljan.  Let's move on.

14            Now, your allegation that you saw a mortar in the Old Town on

15    6 December is not recorded either in the war diary, D96, nor in this

16    report, D --

17            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

18            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Rodic.

19            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend is

20    saying something to the witness that is inaccurate.

21            I would like to draw your attention to page 2 of this report,

22    line 7 in B/C/S.  There is a sentence that reads:  "Until the beginning of

23    the attack at 6.00 -- before the attack at 6.00, our forces were fired at

24    by 82-millimetre mortars, and this mortar fire went on until 1430 hours."

25    Fire from Dubrovnik.

Page 7747

 1            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 2            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 3       Q.   My point is, Your Honour, that there is no reference to the

 4    Old Town.

 5            JUDGE PARKER:  Carry on as you will, Ms. Mahindaratne.

 6            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7       Q.   Going back, Mr. Drljan.  I put it to you that your claim of seeing

 8    a mortar in the Old Town, Stari Grad, on 6 December 1991 is not recorded

 9    in the war diary, D96, for the record, or this order for the 6th December,

10    which is -- I beg your pardon.  The report on the activities of the

11    3rd Battalion on the 6th December, and that is because there was no such

12    mortar on the 6th December that you saw.  It is an incorrect assertion,

13    isn't it?

14            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just intervene

15    briefly?

16            JUDGE PARKER:  Is this an objection to the question?

17            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

18            JUDGE PARKER:  Well, look, I've mentioned before:  If you're

19    making objections about the evidence, one counsel does that, not changing.

20    You have often been allowed, and reasonably, to intervene where there's a

21    witness of Mr. Rodic's when it's a matter of translation in the record.

22    But if there is an objection, it should be made by Mr. Rodic, as this is

23    his witness.

24            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

Page 7748

 1       Q.   Can you please respond to my question.  Did you understand my

 2    question?

 3            JUDGE PARKER:  There's an objection pending.

 4            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I beg your pardon.

 5                          [Defence counsel confer]

 6            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the essence of this

 7    objection is that my learned friend says that there is no evidence that

 8    would corroborate that there was firing from the Old Town of Dubrovnik in

 9    the reports that were made.  Could my learned friend please look at D62.

10    That is only one of the exhibits that has to do with this particular

11    matter regarding the 6th of December.

12            JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

13            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I object, Your Honour.  It is not proper for

14    counsel to refer to other items of evidence before a witness.

15            JUDGE PARKER:  The point being made is that you are misquoting or

16    misidentifying the evidence, the state of the evidence, to the witness in

17    your question.

18            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Your Honour.  My question was merely that

19    the fact that this item of information is not recorded in the war diary,

20    nor this particular report, that is D96 and D65, is because there were --

21    the witness's assertion that there was a mortar in the Old Town on

22    6 December is incorrect.

23            JUDGE PARKER:  And what's being put against you is that there are

24    other documents which do record firing.

25            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Your Honour.  I don't intend to

Page 7749

 1    waste time on this.  I will withdraw the question and move on.

 2            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 3            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 4       Q.   Now, Mr. Drljan, you testified of seeing a flash behind the tower.

 5    Could you please name the tower again, the tower or the pillar behind

 6    from -- behind which you saw a flash.

 7       A.   Orlando column, the Orlando column.

 8       Q.   And what's the height of this column?

 9       A.   Perhaps about ten metres, six, perhaps even less.  I don't know

10    exactly.  I don't know exactly, but it is high enough.  A few people can

11    stand behind it without being seen.

12       Q.   And what's the width of this column?

13       A.   I could not say exactly.

14       Q.   Now, how many people could stand behind the column?  When you say

15    a few people, about five people, six people, could stand behind them

16    shoulder to shoulder without being seen?

17       A.   Two people can stand there without being seen.

18       Q.   So you saw a flash from behind this pillar?

19       A.   Yes, a few flashes.  In certain intervals.

20       Q.   And were these flashes -- how wide were the flashes in terms of

21    width?

22       A.   They were big enough to be seen from behind the pillar.  I could

23    see them behind the pillar.  Say half a metre or 70 centimetres.  The

24    flash could be seen perfectly.

25       Q.   You mean you could see the flash about half a metre extending

Page 7750

 1    outside the pillar?

 2       A.   No.  No.  Lengthwise half a metre.  There is length and there is

 3    width.  So the length was about 50 centimetres behind the pillar, and

 4    that's where it could be seen.  You see the flash and then it's no longer

 5    there, quite naturally.

 6       Q.   But you did not see a weapon?

 7       A.   No.  But it had to be some sort of weapon.

 8       Q.   What time of the day was this?  What time was it when you saw this

 9    flash?

10       A.   I think about half past 8.00, 8.30 or thereabouts.  Don't take my

11    word for it, though.  I wasn't exactly looking at my watch.  I was

12    thinking about other things at the time.

13       Q.   8.30 in the morning, daylight?

14       A.   Yes.  Yes, daylight.

15       Q.   And you in fact said it was a very clear day?

16       A.   That's correct.

17       Q.   Now, do you know that -- how do you know that -- I beg your

18    pardon.  I'll withdraw that.

19            How do you know that this flash was in fact muzzle flash and not

20    really a flash emanating from explosion?  Have you seen that when a shell

21    impacts on a particular surface, there's an explosion and there's a huge

22    flash?  You would have seen it, considering the number of years you served

23    in the military, haven't you?

24       A.   I would have seen it, yes.  When a shell falls, in addition to the

25    flash of light that lasts for a moment, it also raises a lot of dust

Page 7751

 1   

 2   

 3   

 4   

 5   

 6   

 7   

 8   

 9   

10   

11   

12    Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13    French transcripts correspond

14   

15   

16   

17   

18   

19    

20   

21   

22   

23   

24   

25   

Page 7752

 1    around where it impacts.  It causes damage to the walls, to the pavement,

 2    and there's a lot of dust all around.  But there was no dust around that

 3    particular flash of light.  Therefore, it was only weapon firing, but not

 4    a shell falling.  These two are very easy to distinguish, and there is no

 5    doubt about this.  When our shell fell on the Stradun, I recognised it

 6    immediately for what it was, our shell, because there was dust in the air

 7    around where it fell.

 8       Q.   Mr. Drljan, don't you know, being an officer with your experience,

 9    that muzzle flash cannot be seen during the daytime?  Muzzle flash from

10    mortars and artillery cannot be seen during the daytime.  Don't you know

11    that?

12       A.   Can you see a match being lit at a distance of 20 metres in

13    daylight?  Just a small match I'm talking about.  Of course you can see

14    it, and the flash too can be seen.  I assert this with full

15    responsibility.  I did see that flash, and yes, it can be seen in

16    daylight.

17            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May the witness be shown two exhibits.

18       Q.   Mr. Drljan, I'm about to show you two photographs of mortars being

19    fired and photographed at the point the shell leaves the barrel.  And

20    these photographs show what we call the muzzle flash, which should be

21    visible during the day.

22            Mr. Drljan, you just said, and I think the words you used were you

23    were saying it with a sense of responsibility that you saw a flash, that

24    you could see a flash or you could see the muzzle flash.

25            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

Page 7753

 1            JUDGE PARKER:  What is the objection, Mr. Rodic?

 2            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to make this

 3    sort of assertion, such as the one put forward by my learned friend and

 4    colleague, I don't think these photographs --

 5            JUDGE PARKER:  I'm going to stop you at that point.  The

 6    cross-examination is proper, and I don't want your objection to be

 7    providing answers to the witness.

 8            Carry on, Ms. Mahindaratne.

 9            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10            JUDGE PARKER:  That's not to say that you may not want to put

11    something about it in re-examination.  But at this point, the

12    cross-examination is proper.

13            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

14       Q.   Mr. Drljan, don't these two photographs show that one cannot

15    observe a muzzle flash at the point of firing, in mortar and artillery

16    fire, but contrary to what you stated?

17       A.   I see a flame here behind the shell itself.  Can you see it behind

18    the shell?  I didn't see the barrel, but I saw a flame.  You can see here

19    clearly that there is a trace of fire that will disappear quickly.  You

20    can see it just behind the shell.  It's a flame.

21       Q.   So what you are telling this Trial Chamber is that you can see a

22    flame on these photographs which is perhaps a type of flash that you saw

23    on 6 December 1991?

24       A.   Of course.  Even here you can see, just behind the shell, there is

25    a flame which is about to disappear, because it goes away very quickly.

Page 7754

 1       Q.   So I do not see it, Mr. Drljan, but perhaps what you can see in

 2    these photographs is what you saw on 6 December.

 3       A.   Not only is that a possibility, it's actually true.

 4       Q.   And this in fact, whatever you saw, was at a distance of about

 5    approximately 3.000 metres from an elevation and behind the pillar?

 6       A.   This event took place behind the pillar, and you can see the flame

 7    clearly.  I've been doing that for 17 years.  I'd sailed for 17 years, and

 8    my eyesight is very sharp, because I had trained my eyesight by sailing.

 9    When I look at something that's that sort of distance, I just can't go

10    wrong.

11       Q.   Considering your experience, do you recognise the artillery in the

12    picture which has a blue tinge?  Do you recognise that weapon?

13       A.   A mortar.

14       Q.   And that is a picture of a mortar firing?

15       A.   [No interpretation]

16            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't get the answer.

17            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

18       Q.   Can you speak up a little, your response.  Can you speak up,

19    because the interpreter did not get your response.

20       A.   This is a mortar while firing a shell.

21       Q.   And the other picture, the green -- the picture with the green

22    tinge, what is that weapon?

23       A.   This is also a mortar.

24       Q.   And that is a mortar firing a shell?

25       A.   Also at the time, also.  It's not clearly visible, but I think

Page 7755

 1    it's a mortar firing a shell.  The image is a bit blurred, but yes, it is

 2    a mortar.

 3            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May these two photographs be tendered in

 4    evidence, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE PARKER:  They will be received as one exhibit.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  These exhibits are P219.

 7            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 8       Q.   Mr. Drljan, now you testified about the war diary, and that all

 9    important activities, matters relating to your forces, matters relating to

10    enemy activity, important events, are all recorded in the war diary.  You

11    said that on Friday.

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And you testified that in fact these entries are made for purposes

14    of compiling combat reports?

15       A.   That's correct.

16       Q.   So at the end of the day, or at some stage, the officer who

17    compiles the daily combat reports summarises the entries and submits a

18    report based on the entries in the war diary.  Is that the procedure?

19       A.   Yes.  But that's not only the war log or from the war log.  You

20    can enter other information that is obtained or reported by commanders who

21    come in to report.  Even unbeknownst to us, if something is happening,

22    then such events too can be recorded.  So commanders come in to report.

23    They tell us about what they had been doing during the day, and that too

24    can be entered in a report.  However, a report never contains everything,

25    but only the most essential things.

Page 7756

 1       Q.   My point was that whilst the war diary could include all

 2    information, what the commanders inform and all of the important events,

 3    the entries in the war diary are used for compiling the combat reports.

 4    Isn't that the way?  Yes.

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   So as such, the information in combat reports should correspond to

 7    the entries in the war diary, necessarily; that's correct, isn't it?

 8       A.   Such information as is recorded from the war log and transferred

 9    into a report must be identical in terms of their content.  But that

10    doesn't necessarily mean that everything is copied from the war log and

11    goes into the report.

12       Q.   What other sources are there to support a combat report, if it's

13    not the war diary?  There has to be some other document being maintained

14    at an operations centre which has a record of the activities, isn't it?

15       A.   As I said a while ago, in the evening hours, commanders of

16    subordinate units arrive and report each on their own respective units,

17    and what happened during the day.  Their statements are not recorded in

18    the war log but can be included in the daily combat report, as well as

19    possible orders that came in, if any orders came in.  Information is

20    obtained from those two to be included in combat reports.

21       Q.   And where do commanders come and compile these reports at?  At the

22    operations centre, isn't it?

23       A.   The operations centre.  There is a special room there.  They sit

24    down and report, each man for himself.  They report on what was done

25    during a certain day and what the activities were for each of them.

Page 7757

 1       Q.   Now, if you or an operations officer is on duty and you receive

 2    some important information, you would necessarily include that in the war

 3    diary?  And I'm not referring to your visit on Zarkovica.  I'm referring

 4    if you were in fact on duty at the operations centre.

 5       A.   If I am on duty at the operations centre and I receive important,

 6    I emphasis, important information, I will be certain to record it in the

 7    war log.

 8       Q.   So if, for instance, when you were on duty, you got a telephone

 9    call or received a telephone call from the General Staff, which is

10    undoubtedly important, you would record it in the war diary?

11       A.   By all means.

12       Q.   So if, for instance, General Kadijevic from Belgrade telephoned

13    you and asked you to immediately contact or establish contact with the

14    commander of the 9th VPS, you would necessarily record that?

15       A.   Certainly that would be recorded, and I would establish contact.

16       Q.   And this would be the case with regard to all operations centres,

17    I presume, the procedure you've just mentioned with regard to the

18    operations centre in Kupari?

19       A.   Certainly.  That's at least the way it should be.

20       Q.   If any combat orders were received by you to pass on to any units

21    when you were in fact the duty-officer, you would have that recorded in

22    the war diary?

23       A.   I would have recorded that briefly, a combat order, such-and-such

24    number, forwarded to such-and-such a person.  I would not write out the

25    whole thing, because the combat order is there and it can be attached.

Page 7758

 1       Q.   Would you please peruse the war diary, Mr. Drljan.  I beg your

 2    pardon.

 3                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 5       Q.   Would you please peruse page 59, and those are the entries for

 6    the 4th.  And there, at 7.50, and on page 60, the entry for 1600 hours,

 7    there are entries relating to weather forecasts.  Now, was it a weather

 8    monitoring unit that provided this information to the operations centre?

 9       A.   No.  The weather forecast could be received from the radio station

10    that was on the coast.  In our case, that was Bar, B-a-r.  Or else, for it

11    to be recorded, it could have been received from the TV weather forecast

12    or the one broadcast all over the radio.

13       Q.   And were steps taken to have the units informed of these weather

14    forecasts, units involved in combat operations?  Not by you.  I'm saying

15    in the normal procedure.

16       A.   This forecast from the VPS Boka was forwarded only to the ships

17    that were about to set sail or already at sea or had received orders to

18    set sail.  So this forecast was mainly required for the ships and their

19    sailing.  It wasn't relevant and important for and units deployed on the

20    land.

21       Q.   Could you please turn to page 61, the entry at 1815.  Now, that is

22    an entry that has been made by you, and it has been -- that information is

23    provided to you by frigate Captain Jeremic.  And there's a reference there

24    to the --

25       A.   Yes.

Page 7759

 1       Q.   There's a reference there to the effect that he did not want to

 2    attack today.  Whom are you referring to, or do you know what that

 3    information is all about?  Which attack does that refer to, and whom are

 4    you referring to there?

 5       A.   Allow me first to read this before I answer your question.

 6            This was a message from the Croatian army, their internal message,

 7    intercepted by frigate Captain Jeremic, with one of our radio stations.

 8    This refers to the front.  That was somewhere near Ston, which is very far

 9    from Dubrovnik, and this front was over 50 kilometres away, and that is

10    where our forces and the Croatian forces were in contact in that

11    particular area.  Because Dubrovnik was surrounded, and we proceeded

12    further on down the highway, and probably their intention was to attack

13    our forces and to get as close to Dubrovnik as possible, that is, the

14    forces that were there.  But this was very far away from us -- I mean from

15    Dubrovnik.  And this man was dismissed because he didn't want to proceed

16    with the attack, and another man was brought to replace him.  Both men

17    were from the Croatian army.

18       Q.   Did you know that there was a comprehensive cease-fire agreement

19    that was to be concluded on 6 December?

20       A.   I didn't know until the evening, when I heard -- on the 6th of

21    December, when I heard that an agreement on truce was about to be

22    concluded.  But I knew nothing about that.

23       Q.   So you -- on 5th December, you did not know that there was a

24    cease-fire agreement to be concluded on 6 December?  That's your evidence?

25       A.   No.  That's my statement.  Frigate Captain Jeremic was a liaison

Page 7760

 1    officer.  He was in charge of that.  And we were not informed every time a

 2    negotiation was going on, unless we were required to provide certain

 3    things for the negotiations.  Otherwise, since on that occasion we were

 4    not required to provide anything --

 5       Q.   Mr. Drljan, would you please turn to page 66.  That is the entries

 6    relating to 5th December.  And I'm referring to the entries at 1940 and

 7    1942.  Those are entries made by you, isn't it?  The entry at 1940 -- who

 8    has entered the entry at 1940, which is just below the entry that you have

 9    made?  Your name is in the remark column against the entry just before

10    that.

11       A.   Yes, that's correct.

12       Q.   So who made the entry at 1940?

13       A.   At 1940, I suppose that it was done by Captain Dzelebdzic because

14    this is neither Sikimic's nor Kozaric's because this is neither Sikimic's

15    nor Kozaric's handwriting, nor mine.  So he could not have made those --

16            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Petrovic.

17            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 57, line 2, the

18    witness said Captain Dzelebdzic, not Kovacevic, as it says in the record.

19            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

20            MS. MAHINDARATNE:

21       Q.   Do you see, Mr. Drljan, that just below the entry made by you, the

22    two entries at 1940 and 1942, clearly indicate that there is a cease-fire

23    agreement to be concluded the next day?  Yet being an officer of your

24    seniority, on 5th December, you were not aware of an important event as a

25    comprehensive cease-fire agreement which was to be concluded the next day,

Page 7761

 1    when it was in fact recorded in the very war diary that you yourself made

 2    entries in?

 3        A.   This was entered by Captain Dzelebdzic and received from the

 4    frigate Captain Handzijev.  So it came from the main command post for our

 5    information only.  Generally, no officer from the forward command post

 6    took part in those negotiations.  Therefore, I have nothing to do with

 7    this entry, and I was not interested in it, pending the reaching of the

 8    agreement.  So it was -- a peace agreement was in the offing.

 9       Q.   So you were not interested in learning about a comprehensive

10    cease-fire?  You say that you were not interested in it.  Is that what

11    you're saying?  An officer of your seniority would not be interested in a

12    comprehensive cease-fire that's to be brought about the very next day.

13       A.   This is a laughable question, with all due respect, but I find it

14    ridiculous.  We were all interested in cease of fire.  If I were to

15    decide, I would not have attacked Dubrovnik at all.  But I would not dwell

16    on this further.  I was not interested in this entry because it preceded

17    the negotiations.  I was more interested in the outcome of negotiations

18    and for ensuring the Argos to sail out of the harbour and that's what we

19    secured.  It set sail and our ships did not attack it.  That was the

20    critical point for us.

21            What Jeremic and the others were going to negotiate about, we

22    would only learn later on.  But of course I was interested in peace and

23    things.  And I find this to be a provocative question.

24       Q.   Could you please turn to page 62.  And I'm referring you to the

25    entry -- entries for 5th December 1991.  That's entry for 9.50.  There's a

Page 7762

 1    reference to the 9th VPS command forwarding an act of the General Staff

 2    and indicating that the vessel Cap Africa should be permitted to enter the

 3    port of Dubrovnik and remain there from 5th December to 8th December;

 4    isn't it?

 5       A.   The ship.

 6       Q.   Correct, isn't it?

 7       A.   Yes, that's correct.

 8       Q.   And that is a foreign vessel, isn't it, a civilian foreign vessel?

 9       A.   It was a French cargo ship, a ferry, in fact.

10       Q.   Additionally, at page 65, the entry at 1745, refers to a dialogue

11    between the 9th VPS and the ICRC team to meet on 6 December to carry out

12    some installation work.

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Now, it was possible to let a foreign civilian vessel enter into

15    the port of Dubrovnik and arrange meeting with ICRC teams on the 6th

16    December, because at this stage there was a cease-fire in place and no

17    combat activity was anticipated on 6 December, isn't it?

18       A.   I knew nothing about the activities that were to happen on the 6th

19    of December.  And this particular vessel, called Cap Africa, had not yet

20    entered the Dubrovnik port.

21       Q.   Would you please turn to page 64.  The entry at 1441, there is a

22    reference to re-subordination of 1LM and 1TC.  So you please indicate as

23    to what 1LM and 1TC is.

24       A.   I don't know what an LM is, and TC is I think a territorial

25    company.

Page 7763

 1       Q.   So some units are being re-subordinated, some technical units

 2    being re-subordinated from the VP -- I beg your pardon.  From the fleet to

 3    the 9th VPS here, isn't it, particular tasks?

 4       A.   If this refers to naval units, this is a land sweeper, probably,

 5    LM, and a TC is a torpedo boat.  So after I've read the whole passage, it

 6    seems that they're referring to naval vessels.

 7       Q.   So clearly, the fact that these particular facilities are being

 8    subordinated from the fleet to the 9th VPS indicates that the fleet is not

 9    within the subordination of the 9th VPS, isn't it?

10       A.   That's correct.  The fleet was re-subordinated to the command of

11    the 9th Naval District.

12       Q.   No.  My point is:  This entry indicates clearly that the fleet is

13    not subordinated to the 9th Naval Sector.  The issue of re-subordination

14    of units from the fleet to the 9th Naval Sector does not arise if in fact

15    the fleet was within the 9th Naval Sector.

16       A.   That wouldn't be the case.

17       Q.   Very well.  Would you please read in that entry, right at the

18    bottom, there is a statement by the fleet commander:  "I am unaware of the

19    consent of the KVPO that you were given in relation to the use of the

20    fleets' ships.  1424 hours."  This is a message from fleet commander to

21    Captain Zec, isn't it?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Isn't this a message to Captain Zec?

24       A.   I must read it.  Yes, yes, it is addressed to Captain Zec, and he

25    was the Chief of Staff of the naval sector.  The fleet commander, I cannot

Page 7764

 1   

 2   

 3   

 4   

 5   

 6   

 7   

 8   

 9   

10   

11   

12    Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13    French transcripts correspond

14   

15   

16   

17   

18   

19   

20   

21   

22   

23   

24   

25   

Page 7765

 1    tell you now who the commander was at the time.

 2       Q.   And the fleet commander is telling Captain Zec that he's not aware

 3    of some information or consent given by the naval military district for

 4    certain activities?  Isn't that what the fleet commander is indicating

 5    there?

 6       A.   Let me just first read before I answer.  This document had been

 7    sent to Captain Zec because previously, probably, somebody requested the

 8    replacement for the ships that had been at sea for a long time.  It says

 9    here 80 days and to replace those ships and give some time to the crews

10    for rest.  They were asking for one minesweeper and one torpedo boat to

11    replace those vessels that had been assigned up until then.  Their duty

12    was to escort convoys and carry out other tasks as necessary.

13       Q.   And the reference to KVPO there is the naval district; correct?

14       A.   Yes.  And it approves re-subordination of these two vessels.

15       Q.   Now, would you please indicate:  In the war diary, which is before

16    you, apart from the entries which is made by time, there is an overview of

17    events for the day.  Who makes these overview of events in the war diary?

18       A.   The review of daily events in a war log -- are you referring to

19    this?  So the daily review is essentially a daily report.

20       Q.   And so whoever who makes these overview of events for the day goes

21    through the entries and summarises the events, or the entries, into an

22    overview.  That's necessarily what an overview of the events is?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Could you please turn to the overview for 6 December, that is, the

25    page before page 67.  Now, there is -- page before page 67.

Page 7766

 1       A.   Summary of events of the 6th of December, 1991.

 2       Q.   In that summary, it starts off from 0010 to 0600 hours.  The enemy

 3    has opened machine-gun and sniper fire on our positions at Strincjera.

 4    From 0600 to 0745, 82-millimetre fire was opened from Srdj, Lazaret, and

 5    H. Neptun on Strincjera.  Until then, shells from handle.  Non-stop mortar

 6    fire is coming from Hotel Libertas, Babin Kuk, and from Velika Petka.

 7    1120 hours, 120-millimetre fire is still continuing on Srdj.

 8            Could you please turn the page and examine the entries for

 9    6 December 1991.  And isn't it the case that there isn't a single entry

10    there on -- for the 6th December which supports that particular passage?

11       A.   May I answer?

12       Q.   Yes, please.

13       A.   This summary of events was made by Kozaric, but only after

14    receiving reports by commanders at the forward command post.  In this long

15    series of events that took place on that date, the commanders and company

16    commanders were not able to report all the events to be entered into the

17    war logs.  They just recorded them in their notebooks, and when they came

18    in the evening, they reported how many shells were fired, who fired from

19    where, et cetera.  So in the evening, they provided more accurate

20    information, and that is why Kozaric compiled this overview; otherwise,

21    this kind of overview is not made on a normal day.

22       Q.   How do you know that, sir?  How do you know that --

23       A.   I know because not -- for no other day did we make a review.  That

24    was the most important single event in the period, and that is why this

25    overview was made.  Because not all the events and incidents could have

Page 7767

 1    been recorded in the war log.  The commanders were busy on their

 2    positions, respective positions.  They just noted them down in their

 3    notebooks.  They didn't want to waste time by telephoning us at the time.

 4    Because their main preoccupation was to render command duties to all those

 5    who were involved in that struggle.  And in the evening, they were able to

 6    provide more precise information.

 7       Q.   So when these commanders came and reported to Kozaric, were you

 8    present?  Is that how you know all this?

 9       A.   I am aware of that information as an officer, as a professional

10    officer.

11       Q.   Mr. Drljan --

12       A.   As for --

13       Q.   Please, my question to you is:  Were you present when these

14    commanders came and reported to Kozaric?

15       A.   [Previous translation continues]... give you an answer.

16       Q.   First say yes or no, and then please explain.

17       A.   I was not present, because when a man is appointed to be in charge

18    of the briefing, he is the only person present, and the commanders are

19    present.  The others are not needed and are not present.  Therefore,

20    unless specific orders are issued to the contrary.

21       Q.   So do you know, then, from some other source that on 6 December

22    evening, commanders - and when you say commanders, commander of the

23    3rd Battalion, is that whom you're referring to - was present reporting to

24    Kozaric as to what happened during the course of the day?

25       A.   Certainly.  But I was not present, and I cannot make any claims as

Page 7768

 1    to what he had reported.

 2       Q.   Do you know as to whether the company commanders also came with

 3    the 3rd Battalion commander and reported to Kozaric on the evening of

 4    6 December?  Is that how this information came by?

 5            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

 6            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Rodic.

 7            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] During his testimony, the witness did

 8    not state anywhere that on the 6th of December --

 9            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Rodic, thank you.  I get the drift of your

10    objection.  The question that's put is clear and can be answered,

11    independently of what earlier evidence might have been given.

12            Carry on, Ms. Mahindaratne.

13            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14       Q.   Would you please respond, Mr. Drljan.  Do you know, in addition to

15    the commander of the 3rd Battalion, the company commanders of the

16    3rd Battalion, were they present at whatever place reporting to Kozaric

17    about the day's events?  Do you know that?

18       A.   I don't know that.  I don't remember.  Usually company commanders

19    report to the commander of the battalion and then he, in turn, reports to

20    us.

21       Q.   So who are the commanders?  You said in the plural.  Who are the

22    commanders who reported to Kozaric that you mentioned earlier, in addition

23    to the 3rd Battalion commander?

24       A.   What commanders are you referring to?  It's not commanders in the

25    sense of commandeers, leaders of particular units that reported to

Page 7769

 1    Kozaric.  It was commanders, "komandante," that reported to him.  There is

 2    a major difference involved.

 3       Q.   Whom are you referring to when you said that someone reported to

 4    Kozaric, which led to this -- summary in the war diary?  You said the

 5    3rd Battalion commander.  In addition to that, who else reported to

 6    Kozaric?  Do you know that?  Because you said it with such certainty.

 7    That is why I'm asking you.

 8       A.   I said with great certainty who was supposed to be there to

 9    report.  I did not see that, because I was not there.  I went to my room,

10    because I was not invited to this briefing.  And it's battalion commanders

11    or detachment commanders who are supposed to report.

12       Q.   So apart from the 3rd Battalion commander, who else was supposed

13    to be there?

14       A.   No one.  No one.  No one from his unit.

15       Q.   How do you know this?  Who told you that somebody reported to

16    Kozaric that evening, which led to this overview being compiled?

17       A.   Well, I've told you that Captain Kovacevic was supposed to collect

18    all information from his company commanders, to write them down in his

19    notebook, to come to the forward command post himself and report to

20    Kozaric.

21            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May the witness be shown D64 and D61.

22       Q.   Mr. Drljan, in the interests of time, I will ask you questions

23    about both these documents at once.  Would you please quickly peruse these

24    two documents, which are combat reports submitted by Captain Zec.  And do

25    you note that the assertions in D64 about firing from the region of -- or

Page 7770

 1    from the area of the Old Town is not in the war diary.  There are no

 2    entries which support --

 3            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  The Defence has not

 4    provided us with an English translation of this document still.  This is a

 5    document put to Admiral Jokic.  We are just struggling with this document.

 6    I'm referring to D64.  If I may have a moment, Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE PARKER:  Have you further questions after this?

 8            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I beg your pardon.  Just about three or four

10    questions.  But if it's an appropriate time to take a break, afterwards I

11    would take at the most about five minutes, Your Honour.

12            JUDGE PARKER:  I think it might be better that way.  It would

13    allow the witness to finish reading the two documents.

14            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Your Honour.

15            JUDGE PARKER:  And then you can collect your thoughts for a speedy

16    finish.

17            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18            JUDGE PARKER:  I'm getting very concerned at the time being taken

19    with each witness by both Defence and Prosecution counsel.  We are falling

20    behind with every witness at the moment.

21            We will resume at 6.00.

22                          --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.

23                          --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.

24            JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

25            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Your Honour, I made a

Page 7771

 1    mistake when I referred to the Exhibit number D64.  It was actually D62,

 2    but during the break, with the assistance of the registrar, we did get the

 3    correct exhibit to the witness.

 4            JUDGE PARKER:  D62 and D61 you referred to.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the President, please.

 6            JUDGE PARKER:  I didn't have my microphone on, I'm sorry.  It's

 7    D62 and D61 that you're referring to?

 8            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 9       Q.   Mr. Drljan, have you had an opportunity to go through these

10    documents?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   In document dated 5th December 1991, D61, the first paragraph

13    refers to firing from enemy positions.  Now, do you find in the war diary,

14    D96, in the entries relating to 5th December 1991, any entry which

15    corresponds to that particular report?  That is a report on firing by

16    enemy forces on 5th December 1991.

17       A.   Can I just have a moment, please.

18       Q.   There is no entry that corresponds to that report, isn't it?

19       A.   2355.  Can I just have a moment to go through this, please.

20            2355 on the 5th, where Kovacevic says that he had come under fire,

21    and the answer was that he should refrain from firing back.  That's 2355.

22    During the day, no fire was being opened, according to the log, at least,

23    but fire was opened later on in the evening.  Page 66, 2355.

24       Q.   But Mr. Drljan, the report D61 is filed at 1700 hours on

25    5th December 1991, isn't it?

Page 7772

 1       A.   Yes.  Can you please not give me the document number, because the

 2    number is not stated on my copy of the document.  Just give me the date

 3    and the time.

 4       Q.   The report dated 5th December 1991 by Captain Zec, which refers to

 5    firing by enemy forces is compiled at 1700 hours, isn't it?  And there is

 6    no --

 7       A.   That's correct.

 8       Q.   -- [Previous translation continues]... entry in the war diary

 9    which supports that report.  That's my point.  Could you please answer

10    with a yes or no.

11       A.   Not in terms of the time recorded, but probably Kozaric, who wrote

12    the report, and the report was signed by Zec, because --

13       Q.   Mr. Drljan, my question was that there are no corresponding

14    entries to the war diary.  Please confine your response to my question.

15       A.   There's no corresponding entry, but --

16       Q.   Thank you.  Now --

17       A.   [Previous translation continues]... the evening report -- please

18    allow me to finish answering.  That day, commanders came in to report on

19    the previous day, and probably they did before this report was written.

20    They didn't do it by phone during the day while there was firing, but

21    rather, they said it in the evening, when they came over.  Therefore, it

22    was an oral report.

23       Q.   Would you please take a look at the document dated 6 December

24    1991, which is submitted by Captain Milan Zec.  In that report, in the

25    first paragraph, there is a reference to fire from Stradun region, as well

Page 7773

 1    as the old city port.

 2       A.   Well, that's what you said before.  That's what you claimed I

 3    didn't say, but I did say it, and it was recorded, and I told Kozaric

 4    orally as soon as I came.

 5       Q.   Would you please let me finish my question.  I'm on time

 6    constraint.  And this document, D62, which contains the assertion to

 7    firing from the Old Town, or the region of the Old Town and the old city

 8    port, is not supported by any entry in the war diary for 6 December 1991.

 9    Yes or no?

10       A.   No entry.  But, as I said, I orally told Kozaric, as soon as I

11    came, that I had seen a mortar positioned on the Stradun and that I had

12    seen firing, or rather, a flame behind the Orlando column, which is near

13    the Old Town harbour, and this is how he recorded it.  He didn't record it

14    in the logbook, but he did include it in the report.

15            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May the witness be shown D105, please.

16       Q.   Mr. Drljan, do you note that this order to control weapons is

17    issued pursuant to -- or in keeping with the resolution passed by the

18    Security Council of the United Nations, the UN Security Council?  That's

19    indicated in paragraph 2 of the document.  Do you note that?

20       A.   I do notice that, yes.

21       Q.   Thank you.

22            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That concludes cross-examination, Your Honour.

23            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

24            Mr. Rodic.

25            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7774

 1                          Re-examined by Mr. Rodic:

 2       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Drljan, while we still have D62 in front of

 3    us, it's the regular combat report of the command of the 9th VPS dated the

 4    6th of December, 1991.

 5            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I object, Your Honour.  There is no reference

 6    to this document being a regular combat report.

 7            JUDGE PARKER:  I would respectfully suggest it's in the heading.

 8            Carry on, Mr. Rodic.

 9            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10       Q.   Mr. Drljan, do you have the report in front of you, and can you

11    please open the logbook, the war logbook also, and can you please, first

12    of all, look between page 66 of the war log and page 67.  It's the page

13    containing a handwritten summary of events.

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Please have a look at the section that was marked in pen -- in

16    pencil, in fact.

17       A.   Circled?

18       Q.   Yes.  Where they're talking about the firing positions of the

19    mortars at Lazareti, the firing positions of mortars at the Neptun Hotel,

20    firing positions of mortars at Nuncijata, firing positions at Nuncijata

21    Sustjepan and the number of shells that were fired by JNA units.  And can

22    you please look at point 2, item 2 of the regular combat report, Exhibit

23    D62, to see if these data from the logbook were reflected here.

24       A.   Yes, they were.

25       Q.   On the positions and the number of shells that were actually

Page 7775

 1    fired?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Just another thing that needs clarifying.  The columns in the war

 4    log in D96, the boxes, the section that was divided up and where the

 5    tables had been entered for -- to contain entries, is that on the

 6    right-hand side of the log?

 7       Q.   Can you please repeat the question.

 8       Q.   Can you look at this, please, these entries.

 9       A.   Which page?

10       Q.   It doesn't matter.  All the pages.  You have tables that are

11    drawn, lines are drawn to contain tables for entries and remarks to be

12    entered.  Is that on the right-hand page of the notebook that actually

13    contains the war log?

14       A.   Yes.  That is indeed the right-hand page.

15       Q.   What about the page in between, the one that is a copy and

16    contains a summary of events?  Is that a blank page beside the right-hand

17    page that is used possibly for these entries?

18       A.   Yes.  Because the summary pertains to the entire day.

19       Q.   That's very well.  Can you tell me about item 1, point 1, the

20    enemy, regular combat report in the log, the war log, D96, at 0715, is

21    there any reference to Zoljas and 82-millimetre mortars at about 6.00

22    firing at positions on Strincjera from Srdj?  Is there any reference to

23    that?

24       A.   So is there anything in the logbook, a reference to firing --

25       Q.   On Strincjera or against Strincjera, the position there.

Page 7776

 1       A.   Strincjera.

 2       Q.   At 0715 hours.

 3       A.   Zoljas and 82-millimetre mortars around 0600 hours, positions on

 4    Strincjera were hit from Srdj.

 5       Q.   Yes.  Let's move on, please.  Between page 69 of the logbook and

 6    page 70, therefore, a copy of a blank page that was written on --

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   It says the 6th of December, 1992, dead.  Can you see that?

 9       A.   Yes.  Yes, I see that.

10       Q.   Were the names of those who had been killed and wounded entered in

11    the regular combat report?

12       A.   No, they weren't.

13       Q.   Can you please now look at the regular combat report, D61, dated

14    the 5th of December.  Do you have the document in front of you, D61?  The

15    date is the 5th of December.  And can you please keep it in front of you.

16    Do you have the regular combat report, D61, dated the 5th of December?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Can you please look at the war log between page 63 and page 64

19    again.  We find the copy of that blank page, the left-hand page, from the

20    war log.  Again, there is a box made in pencil here and the reference is

21    to 1500 hours to 1530 hours, Pobrezje, Solitudo, fire; is that not

22    correct?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   1530 to 1600, Zarkovica, Bosanka, Strincjera?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 7777

 1   

 2   

 3   

 4   

 5   

 6   

 7   

 8   

 9   

10   

11   

12    Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13    French transcripts correspond

14   

15   

16   

17   

18   

19   

20   

21   

22   

23   

24   

25   

Page 7778

 1       Q.   1100 to 1200 hours, Bosanka, Dubrovnik?

 2       A.   Yes, that is the case.

 3       Q.   Can certain entries also be made on the left-hand side of the log?

 4       A.   Yes.  That is possible.

 5       Q.   If you look at item 1, point 1 of the regular combat report, D61,

 6    is there any reference there to a French ship called Cap Africa?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Can you please now look at the war log, the entries related to the

 9    5th of December.  Can any of the entries be in reference to the Cap Africa

10    ship 0813, 0840, 0955?

11       A.   Yes.  0830, that is a reference to the ship because the location

12    is given.  0840 --

13       Q.   0840, that's it being identified, isn't it?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   I'm not enumerating everything, but, for example, 1025 --

16       A.   1025, Stojadinovic, Cap Africa.

17       Q.   You don't need to go through it.  You don't need to read out.

18    Just tell me if it's a reference to the ship.

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   The next page, at 1145?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Can you please also look at -- for instance, on page 65, the entry

23    made at 1600 hours.

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  We don't need the Exhibit D61 any more.  I

Page 7779

 1    would kindly ask the witness to be given the Prosecution Exhibit P219.

 2    The witness, please keep the log with you.

 3            If you make a comparison between these two images, at first

 4    glance, do you think that the weather and geographical conditions in one

 5    image is identical to those in the other image?  Just at first glance.

 6       A.   I believe they are, only one of the images is more blurred.

 7       Q.   Which one?

 8       A.   On the left-hand side.

 9       Q.   Where the green is a dominant colour?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   So would you say that it is more blurred?  In which specific part

12    of the photograph with respect to the barrel of the mortar is this blurred

13    part?

14       A.   It is above this man who is bending over and around the shell

15    itself.

16       Q.   Does it go -- this blurred section, does it go from the muzzle of

17    the mortar?

18       A.   No, I don't think so.  Because in this picture, we cannot see it.

19       Q.   Tell me:  Are the soldiers next to the mortar, are all away from

20    the muzzle of the barrel?

21       A.   Yes, they are, relatively speaking.

22       Q.   If you look at both photographs, is the distance between the shell

23    and the muzzle of the barrel, is there a distance there?

24       A.   I see the distance on the right-hand side photograph; however, I

25    don't see it on the left-hand side photograph, because I can't see the

Page 7780

 1    barrel.

 2       Q.   Let me help you with this.  The soldier, not the one whose back is

 3    turned towards you but the one facing you, between the two helmets, can

 4    you see?

 5       A.   On the left-hand side photograph?

 6       Q.   Yes.

 7       A.   Yes, I see some barrels there.

 8       Q.   Do you recognise the barrels?

 9       A.   No, I don't.  Above this soldier facing me, a barrel should be

10    somewhere behind his back.  If you extend the trajectory of the shell, but

11    I don't see it here.

12       Q.   Do you know how long the flash lasts when a mortar is fired?

13       A.   I can only make an estimate.  It's just a part of a second.

14       Q.   Thank you.  I don't need this photograph any longer.

15            Tell me:  Do you know approximately what is the distance between

16    Zarkovica and the Old Town as the crow flies?  If you can make an

17    estimate; if not, then we can proceed.

18       A.   About 2.000 metres, roughly speaking.  It's not difficult to

19    calculate.

20       Q.   Mr. Drljan, what is a regular combat report as a document?  What

21    does it represent?

22       A.   As a document, it represents a basic document for a particular and

23    specific day, in which all important information, activities of all units

24    are entered, I mean units on the ground, including all other significant

25    reports that are received or orders that are received, orders issued and

Page 7781

 1    conveyed, and all movements in this particular case of ships.  In a word,

 2    all the pertinent events that need to be recorded, for example, the number

 3    of the wounded, the injured, and the dead.

 4       Q.   Based on what information is the regular combat report compiled?

 5       A.   It is compiled based on daily reports sent by units and on the

 6    basis of reports submitted by unit commanders in the evening when they

 7    come for a debriefing session.  These are main sources for this kind of

 8    report.  So a log is used.  Everything that has been received as

 9    information is being recorded, and that includes oral reports given by

10    commanders during debriefing.  It has its certain established form.

11       Q.   That means, Mr. Drljan, that, so to say, the two main sources of

12    information for compiling a regular combat report are reports submitted by

13    unit commanders, plus the information received from the operations centre?

14       A.   Yes.  The information received at the operations centre from units

15    or commanders.

16       Q.   Besides that, a regular combat report can include intelligence

17    information as well?

18       A.   Yes, they can.

19       Q.   Will you please give the witness Exhibit D96 again.

20            Mr. Drljan, will you please look at page 66 of the war log.

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   My learned friend asked you about these entries at 1940 and 1942.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Tell me -- please first read these entries.  Just read it to

25    yourself.  You don't need to read them out loud.

Page 7782

 1            Have you read it?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Tell me:  At -- in the 1940 entry and 1942 entry, is there a

 4    word "cease-fire" there?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Are there words "signed agreement," or "agreement on truce."

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Will you please look, the 2012 entry in the log, which is

 9    immediately after these previous two.

10       A.   Yes, I've read it.

11       Q.   Does this imply that the requests by the Crisis Staff of Dubrovnik

12    were not complied with, who asked a ship route, Dubrovnik ship --

13    Dubrovnik to be established and for the works on the water pump to be

14    commenced on the 12th of December?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   The command of the 9th VPS expressed here that they could not

17    comply with those requests --

18            MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Your Honour, counsel is leading the witness.

19            JUDGE PARKER:  Fair comment, Mr. Rodic.

20            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I'm just trying to

21    make it quicker.

22       Q.   Will you please read out loud the last sentence.

23       A.   At 2012?

24       Q.   Yes.

25       A.   "We are ready to solve this issue shortly, which will primarily

Page 7783

 1    depend on the results of the negotiations to be held in Cavtat on the 6th

 2    of December, 1992."

 3       Q.   Does this indicate that a truce agreement has been signed?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Does this indicate that the negotiations are still ongoing?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   On the 5th of December, did anyone from the command of the 9th VPS

 8    mention an absolute cease-fire?

 9       A.   No.

10            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Just for a minute,

11    please.

12                          [Defence counsel confer]

13            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Drljan.

14            MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have completed my

15    redirect examination.

16            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Rodic.

17            Mr. Drljan, may we thank you for your attendance and the

18    assistance that you have given to the Tribunal.  You'll be pleased to know

19    that you're now free to return to your home.  Thank you very much.  The

20    usher will show you out.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22                          [The witness withdrew]

23            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Petrovic.

24            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we now call the next

25    witness, if you believe that it is appropriate that we begin today and use

Page 7784

 1    these 20 minutes that we have left.  Due to all the concerns about the

 2    time at our disposal, the Defence proposes that we use these last

 3    20 minutes.  And with your permission, we would like to call Slavoljub

 4    Stojanovic.

 5            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 6            MR. WEINER:  Your Honour --

 7            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Weiner.

 8            MR. WEINER:  While we have a moment, could we address the

 9    scheduling over the next few days?  I've been talking to Defence counsel,

10    and we're a little bit -- our defence is a little bit behind on discovery.

11    We should be receiving discovery for the next witness sometime this

12    evening, and there should only be one other witness tomorrow, if that's

13    correct.  And I just want to go through the schedule so we're all on the

14    same plate, or same page.

15            JUDGE PARKER:  You mean you would like to know who is to come

16    during the week?

17            MR. WEINER:  I'd just like to confirm it.  We're still awaiting

18    the proofing notes, which we'll get sometime this evening, probably

19    between 9.30 and 11.00 tonight, which would be the final proofing notes.

20    Which is fine.  We'll deal with that tomorrow.  We'll deal with that

21    witness, as long as there's nothing significantly new.  But I just want to

22    confirm there's only one other witness after this witness tomorrow.  Those

23    are the only --

24            JUDGE PARKER:  That will depend perhaps how quick you are in

25    cross-examination, Mr. Weiner.

Page 7785

 1            MR. WEINER:  Even if we're quick, apparently they have no other

 2    witnesses they're bringing in tomorrow, other than one after this one.

 3    And then there appears --

 4            JUDGE PARKER:  Well, that will depend on when this next witness

 5    finishes.  When the witness finishes, there will be yet another.

 6            MR. WEINER:  Okay.  We're under the impression, we've been told by

 7    the Defence this witness will finish, assuming cross-examination tomorrow,

 8    and there will be one other witness and that is it for tomorrow.

 9            JUDGE PARKER:  I'm not sure what the issue is.

10            MR. WEINER:  I want just some confirmation.  And if there's going

11    to be another witness tomorrow, to get some disclosure tonight.

12            JUDGE PARKER:  Oh, I see your concern.  You want to know whether

13    there will be disclosure in time for preparation.

14            MR. WEINER:  Correct.  So I'm under the impression it's this

15    witness for cross-examination, assuming tomorrow, and then one other

16    witness, and that should be it for tomorrow.  And then two witnesses on

17    Wednesday, or three witnesses on Wednesday.

18            JUDGE PARKER:  Well, it really just depends on how long each

19    witness takes, and I hope you will have caught up with the growing concern

20    of the Chamber that witnesses are taking too long in their evidence in

21    chief and in their cross-examination.  So that we certainly would not

22    discourage witnesses being dealt with more quickly.  If that means that a

23    third witness might be reached tomorrow, so be it.

24            MR. WEINER:  Okay.  We're under the impression, because we haven't

25    received disclosure and I've been told by the Defence there is no third

Page 7786

 1    witness for tomorrow.  I just want to get everything ...

 2            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Petrovic.  Before you carry on, perhaps you'd

 3    like to sit down for just a moment.  Thank you for waiting.

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

 6            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I try to explain.

 7    After Mr. Stojanovic, the Defence has Mr. Kurdulija prepared as the next

 8    witness.  As for the content of his evidence, we have told our learned

 9    friends about this orally.  Once today's sitting is over, perhaps half an

10    hour later, we will have prepared this in writing too, namely, what

11    Mr. Kurdulija is going to testify about, in addition to what was disclosed

12    under 65 ter.

13            Your Honour, the Defence would kindly ask you for the following.

14    Could we hear Mr. Stojanovic tomorrow?  He will obviously testify in chief

15    for a considerable amount of time tomorrow and then he will be

16    cross-examined.  And then tomorrow we hope to be able to finish both the

17    examination-in-chief and the cross-examination of Mr. Kurdulija.

18    Regrettably, as for the third witness, although he is here in The Hague,

19    he is not yet ready to appear before the Honourable Trial Chamber.  We

20    will deal with that tonight, or whenever.  I really don't know.  That's

21    the situation.

22            I must say, though, that this situation will become even more

23    unfavourable in view of the fact that as of tomorrow we will be working

24    from 8.30 until 4.30.  That practically leaves only the late-evening hours

25    for proofing the witnesses.  They usually finish -- start dinner at 7.00

Page 7787

 1    and we get out of the courtroom at 5.00.  So it is very hard for us to

 2    find time to work with them.

 3            I wish to assure you, Your Honours, that we avail ourselves of

 4    each and every moment to prepare our case, but, quite simply, there are

 5    some constraints that are objectively there and that nothing can be done

 6    about.

 7            Thank you.

 8            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Petrovic, we'll be commencing at 9.30 tomorrow,

 9    not 8.30.  Be assured of that.

10            Could the Chamber simply observe that proofing can occur during

11    the day.  There are two Defence counsel.  It's not necessary for both to

12    be in Court at the same time.  So that the process of proofing can be

13    advanced considerably using some of the sitting time as well.

14            I think we've said enough on the subject now.  If I could turn to

15    Mr. Stojanovic.  Would you mind standing, please.  If you'd take the card

16    that is being given to you and read the affirmation aloud.

17                          WITNESS:  SLAVOLJUB STOJANOVIC

18                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Sit down, please.

22            Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

23            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24                          Examined by Mr. Petrovic:

25       Q.   [Interpretation] Good evening.  Could you please tell us your full

Page 7788

 1    name and surname.

 2       A.   My name is Slavoljub Stojanovic.

 3       Q.   Mr. Stojanovic, what is your current profession?

 4       A.   I am currently a professional officer, and the rank I hold is that

 5    of lieutenant colonel.

 6       Q.   Which military schools were you completed?

 7       A.   The military academy of the ground forces.

 8       Q.   What year?  When did you graduate?

 9       A.   In 1983.

10       Q.   Where did you serve upon completing the military academy?

11       A.   The first place where I served was the reserve officers school of

12    infantry in Bileca.

13       Q.   Can you tell us what kind of school this is in Bileca.

14            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak

15    slower.  Thank you.

16       A.   This is a school that trains officers for the armed forces of the

17    then Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  So that was in that period

18    of time.  This is a school where there was a high level of order and

19    discipline and --

20            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   Just a moment, please, Mr. Stojanovic.  The interpreters are

22    asking you to slow down a bit so that everything could be recorded in the

23    transcript.  That is the first thing I wish to say to you.  And secondly,

24    I would like you to pause between my question and your answer so that we

25    could indeed have everything in the transcript.

Page 7789

 1       A.   Very well.

 2       Q.   Tell us, please:  What was the reputation of the school where you

 3    served, the reserve officers school in Bileca?

 4       A.   The reputation of the reserve officers school of the infantry in

 5    Bileca was a very high one.  There was order and discipline and hard work.

 6    Not everybody could be a commander, and at that time, we were really

 7    appreciated both in the east and west in terms of training such officers

 8    like the infantry officers trained in Bileca.

 9       Q.   Where did you serve in 1991?

10       A.   In 1991, until the 21st of September, I served in Bileca.  In that

11    period, that is to say, before the 21st of September, I handed over my

12    duty, because I was waiting for orders from the General Staff to see where

13    I would be sent then.

14       Q.   In order to move on faster, could you please just give accurate

15    answers to my questions.

16            At some point in time, in 1991, did you receive orders for a

17    temporary assignment to work in a unit?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   What was the level of command that made this order regarding your

20    assignment?

21       A.   The General Staff.

22       Q.   Where was it that you were assigned to temporarily?

23       A.   I was temporarily assigned to the 472nd Motorised Brigade in

24    Trebinje, which was within the 9th Military Naval Sector and the sector

25    was within the military naval district.

Page 7790

 1       Q.   Who did you report to when you arrived in Trebinje?

 2       A.   I reported to Colonel Obrad Vicic, commander of the brigade.

 3       Q.   Did Colonel Vicic send you to any one of the units that was within

 4    the 472nd Motorised Brigade?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Which unit did he send you to?

 7       A.   The 3rd Motorised Company of the 3rd Motorised Battalion.

 8       Q.   Did you receive official orders at any point in time in terms of

 9    your appointment to this duty?

10       A.   Yes, I did.

11       Q.   When was it that you received this official order?

12       A.   It was the end of February or beginning of March 1992.

13       Q.   Which duty were you assigned to in the 3rd Motorised Company of

14    the 3rd Motorised Battalion of the 472nd Motorised Brigade?

15       A.   Precisely what you said.  The commander of the 3rd Motorised

16    Company of the 3rd Motorised Brigade of the 472nd Motorised Brigade in the

17    9th Military Naval Sector within the military naval district.

18       Q.   Tell us:  Where was the company deployed at the moment when you

19    received the order, the oral order of the commander that you were being

20    appointed leader of that company, commander of that company?

21       A.   It was in the broader area of Ivanjica.  This is a village and the

22    administrative border between the then Republic of Croatia and then

23    Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So this was an administrative border at

24    that time.

25            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to

Page 7791

 1    point out a mistake in the transcript.  Page 84, line 23, it says the

 2    3rd Motorised Brigade of the 472nd Motorised Brigade.  Obviously it is the

 3    3rd Motorised Battalion of the 472nd Motorised Brigade.  Thank you, Your

 4    Honour.

 5       Q.   Tell us, please:  Do you know why you were sent to the 3rd Company

 6    of the 3rd Battalion of the 472nd Motorised Brigade?

 7       A.   I do know.

 8       Q.   Tell us why.

 9       A.   I was sent in order to bring this unit up to the required level,

10    that is to say, to bring work, order, and discipline to an appropriate

11    level because it was not appropriate before that.

12            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the question

13    because it overlapped the answer.

14       A.   One of the key problems for the brigade and for the unit that I

15    commanded was the fact that the unit was not appropriately manned with the

16    necessary VES, military specialties.  Because it was mostly reserve

17    personnel from the area of Dubrovnik that manned this unit.  Because the

18    men of Dubrovnik did not respond to call-up, then the other regions could

19    not provide the needed VES specialties.  So when I arrived in that unit, I

20    had to retrain the personnel so that they could respond to the

21    requirements.

22            MR. PETROVIC [Interpretation]:

23       Q.   Did you manage to improve the situation in your company?

24       A.   I believe I did.

25       Q.   What was the attitude of the reservists towards the officers who

Page 7792

 1    came to the brigade from the Bileca reserve officers school?

 2       A.   Well, you see, already in peacetime, we officers who worked at the

 3    infantry reserve officers training school had a certain image, so believe

 4    me, they stood in awe of us in terms of the requests and requirements that

 5    we had for work, order, and discipline.  So it was a high level of

 6    respect.

 7       Q.   In the period between your takeover of the company and until the

 8    end of December, what would be your assessment of the discipline in your

 9    company?

10       A.   In my company, I believe the discipline was at the required level,

11    that is to say, in accordance with the tasks that we received from our

12    superiors.

13       Q.   What about fire discipline within your company?

14       A.   Well, let me tell you.  We are professionals and we respect the

15    orders of our superior officer.  So there could not be any opening of fire

16    without dire necessity.

17       Q.   In the period from October to December 1991, the members of the

18    reserve personnel from your company, were they sent on leave from your

19    unit?

20       A.   Yes, they were.

21       Q.   Tell us:  How were reservists sent on leave?

22       A.   This was planned for the reservists who were within my company.  I

23    personally made these lists and I decided who would go on leave from all

24    of my subordinate units.  This was usually up to 48 hours, mostly

25    exception -- and only exceptionally until 72 -- for 72 hours.  Every

Page 7793

 1    reservist had to leave weapons, ammunition that had been issued to them at

 2    the company station for supplies, and then this would be done in an

 3    organised fashion by a TAM motor vehicle that was within the company.

 4    Then they would go under the command of one officer to Trebinje.  And then

 5    these soldiers, these reservists, would go home to take a bath, to take

 6    care of their personal engagements, et cetera.

 7       Q.   Tell us:  Could a soldier from your company take anything from the

 8    positions where the unit was at the time when they would go on leave?

 9       A.   Only quartermaster's equipment, that is to say, a blouse, sweater,

10    what they would take home to be washed or a washed one that would be

11    replaced.  All the other equipment had to remain within the unit.

12       Q.   When reservists went on this leave that you referred to just now

13    from your unit, was fire opened as they were leaving the positions of the

14    unit and as they were going on leave?

15       A.   He they could not open fire, because weapons remained in the unit,

16    that is to say, that they went without any weapons.

17            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I suggest that we

18    pause at this point and continue tomorrow morning at 9.30.

19            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

20            Mr. Stojanovic, I must ask you to return tomorrow morning.  We

21    will be continuing at 9.30.  Thank you.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you, too.

23                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

24                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of

25                          July, 2004, at 9.30 a.m.