Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3521




4 Wednesday, 17th July 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Before we resume with the testimony this morning, we

7 have considered the motion on hearsay filed by the Defence and we

8 heard arguments yesterday. We expect to render the decision sometime

9 next week. In the meantime, we will continue to receive the testimony

10 on the basis that we have been, that is, attempting to apply 89(C)

11 which allows for the admission of all relevant evidence that has

12 probative value. We will rule on any objections that the Defence may

13 make and, consistent with the decision that we will issue next week,

14 make any adjustments that are necessary depending upon what evidence

15 is offered and the objection, if any, that is made.

16 So, would you like to continue, please, Mr. Keegan?

17 MR. KEEGAN: If Mr. Mesic be recalled to the stand, please, and Mr. Kay is

18 still cross-examining.


20 MR. KAY: I am much obliged, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am sorry, Mr. Kay, you are under

22 cross-examination. Mr. Keegan does not need another opportunity at

23 this point.

24 MR. MESIC, recalled

25 Cross-examined by MR. KAY, continued

Page 3522

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Mesic, you understand that you are still under

2 the oath that you took yesterday? Do you understand that?

3 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.

4 MR. KAY: Mr. Mesic, I was asking you questions yesterday about the

5 incident when the man called Kera was shot at Omarska camp. Do you

6 remember?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I want to go back to when the shot was fired. Did you go down to the

9 ground at that stage?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you go down to the ground when you were told to or the crowd on

12 the pista were told to by the guard?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did the guard tell you and the others to go down to the ground soon

15 after the shot was fired?

16 A. First, there was shooting and then we sat down, some walked and then

17 we were told to sit down, and then when we sat down, when the

18 gentleman came to us, he came to him, he greeted, they greeted each

19 other, and then there was an order for us to lie down.

20 Q. Where did the greeting between the two men take place? Where were

21 they?

22 A. Between the flower tubs and the lawn.

23 Q. You did not know the man called Dusko Tadic yourself?

24 A. No, never. I had never seen him.

25 Q. Did others say the name "Tadic"?

Page 3523

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. They used that name itself, "Tadic"?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Many other people were present and would also have seen what

5 happened?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When you went to the ground, how were you positioned?

10 A. I was next to the flower tubs. When everything was finished we were

11 told to lie down and we laid down facing down and we could look -- we

12 were able to look at the side a little bit.

13 Q. When you were able to look aside a little bit your head was

14 positioned looking down to the ground but, as you just indicated to

15 the Court then, you were looking with a sideways glance?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The man who gave the greeting, how was he dressed?

18 A. In uniform, camouflage uniform.

19 Q. Any other features of that uniform, the camouflage uniform, that you

20 can remember?

21 A. Just camouflage uniform.

22 Q. For instance, colour of the belt?

23 A. I do not know.

24 Q. What was the appearance of the man? What did he look like? Can you

25 remember his face? Can you describe that?

Page 3524

1 A. He was a heavily built man and he had a big face.

2 Q. Anything else about the face?

3 A. I did not have time to look.

4 Q. So it seems then that this was not an opportunity for you to study

5 carefully that other man?

6 A. We were worried about our lives, sir.

7 Q. Yes, I understand that, and you, no doubt, were worried and

8 frightened at this time having seen a man shot in such a way so close

9 to you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Presumably, you were fearful of what else might happen in those

12 circumstances?

13 A. Not only we were fearful, we expected it any minute, we expected

14 someone to be called out and killed.

15 Q. Presumably, you felt that it was safer for you to follow the orders

16 of those guards who were there on the pista?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So when you were told to look down to the ground, it was very

19 important for you to follow that command and not be caught looking

20 elsewhere?

21 A. Yes, but one always looks what one wants to see.

22 Q. Yes, and you were-- I do not know if this translates -- stealing a

23 glance?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It did translate.

Page 3525

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you looked up again the man who gave the greeting was no longer

3 there?

4 A. Later there was a command to stand up, we did so and I could not see

5 him any more.

6 Q. How much later was that when the command was given to stand up?

7 A. About 10 minutes.

8 Q. You had not seen where the man had gone?

9 A. No. I had not.

10 Q. You had not seen him leave the area where he was?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So the period of time that you saw him was restricted to this

13 greeting and then doing something with a notebook?

14 A. I did not see him write anything, but he had it on his person. I do

15 not know whether it was a book, a novel or a notebook, but I did not

16 see him write anything.

17 Q. Did you see if the book was opened or was it closed?

18 A. It was folded in his hand.

19 Q. You did not see him write anything?

20 A. No.

21 Q. The next time you say you saw this man was the next day, is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That was a day that you had to accompany a prisoner to the

25 interrogation centre?

Page 3526

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That was an occasion for some reason when you accompanied this person

3 to the interrogation centre, perhaps you can tell us the reason why

4 you had to do that?

5 A. Because I was sitting next to him, and when someone was pointed at,

6 he or she had to go.

7 Q. But I do not quite understand why you had to go with this person to

8 take them to the interrogation centre, what the purpose of that was?

9 A. He was -- he had been beaten up. He was too weak to go on his own.

10 Q. So you were taking him, supporting him and delivering him where you

11 were told?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You went into the interrogation centre and you went up the stairs, is

14 that right, to the first floor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How did you know where to go?

17 A. The guard was following us, sorry, in front of us.

18 Q. At the top of the stairs did you go to an area where there was a

19 corridor that ran along the building where there were rooms off the

20 corridor?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you remind me which room it was that you were taking the other

23 prisoner to?

24 A. On the right-hand side, third door, I think.

25 Q. Was the door to that room open or shut?

Page 3527

1 A. The guard opened the door and took him in and left me behind.

2 Q. Whereabouts were you left behind?

3 A. Behind the other door, he came in and I was behind this other door in

4 the corridor and raised three hands like this, and stood up facing the

5 wall.

6 Q. How long were you in that position for?

7 A. Up to about 15 minutes.

8 Q. Did you remain like that whilst the other prisoner was being

9 interrogated?

10 A. I was in that position but I also looked sideways. I stole glances

11 and I saw the same person who had been there previously, the person

12 who had greeted the guard.

13 Q. So you stole a glance and was the glance of this man on your left

14 side or your right side when you saw him in another room?

15 A. On the right side, because I was turned, I just looked this way.

16 Q. I think you told us yesterday that he was sitting in another room?

17 A. Who?

18 Q. The man who had given the greeting the previous day.

19 A. Yes. There was a table in the corridor and chairs around it, and he

20 lifted his feet on the table and was reclining in the chair.

21 Q. Was that place where he was positioned the same end of the corridor

22 that you had entered from the stairs up to the first floor?

23 A. There is an area on the first floor where the table and chairs are

24 positioned on the left-hand side.

25 Q. So you had not walked past that table and those chairs on your way

Page 3528

1 up into the corridor when you first arrived?

2 A. Yes, we had, and the second or third room, we left it. They then

3 pulled me back and placed me against the wall and asked me to raise

4 three fingers.

5 Q. So you had not seen the man sitting at that table when you had first

6 come into the corridor, you had not walk past him before?

7 A. Yes, I had. Yes, I took a glance and then I was frightened myself.

8 Q. I thought you told us that you saw him when you were standing against

9 the wall with your three fingers up against the wall?

10 A. Yes, I looked, I stole a glance at him too at that time.

11 Q. No doubt during your period in Omarska you saw many guards?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You saw many people at that camp who were not prisoners ---

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- but were people who were connected with the business of the camp

16 either as guards or otherwise?

17 A. Yes, there were interrogators. We saw them in the offices where they

18 interrogated us in the rooms and there were also the guards.

19 Q. Can you tell me how long it was that you were a prisoner in Omarska?

20 A. I do not remember exactly. I was there close to two months.

21 Q. Then after those two months did you go to Manjaca?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How long were you at Manjaca?

24 A. I do not know when the camp was disbanded, when the Omarska camp was

25 disbanded. Then they put us on buses and we were taken to Manjaca.

Page 3529

1 From Manjaca, I was released due to my sickness, to an illness, on the

2 25th. I have a card, a piece of paper, when I was released from

3 Trnopolje, and that is how I remember that date.

4 Q. So would it be right to say that you were in Manjaca for about 20

5 days?

6 A. I do not know exactly, but it is written when I left Omarska and when

7 I went to Manjaca.

8 Q. When you say the 25th, do you mean 25th August was the day that you

9 were released from Manjaca?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You left Omarska at about the time that the camp was closing?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. After Manjaca you spent a few days in Trnopolje?

14 A. Two days in Trnopolje.

15 Q. Then after Trnopolje did you return to Prijedor?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where you stayed for nearly a year, is that right?

18 A. From August until June.

19 Q. About nine months?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You told the Court yesterday that you had not seen any news coverage

22 from newspapers or television concerning the case of Dusko Tadic?

23 A. No, I had not, or am I able to watch.

24 Q. The first photographs shown to you were last month in June of 1996,

25 is that right?

Page 3530

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. About four years after the incidents that you describe taking place

3 in Omarska?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Since your leaving Bosnia-Herzegovina, you have been living in a

6 country which has television and newspapers, is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You first made a statement concerning these events that you describe

9 in Omarska in January of this year, is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Have you made any other statements to anyone else?

12 A. No.

13 Q. After you had left Bosnia-Herzegovina did you not take an interest in

14 allegations being made against the Serbian people in the news of the

15 country where you live?

16 A. No, no, I was ill, sir.

17 Q. But, presumably, you still had your ability to watch television?

18 A. Yes, yes, but I did not speak the language of the country I was

19 staying in.

20 Q. Yes, but you are able to watch pictures on television?

21 A. I did not, I was ill, as I said, and even to this day I have been

22 keeping away from all things political.

23 Q. Even when this case started in May of this year, did you not watch

24 television to see what was happening in the case where you were going

25 to be involved and a witness against ----

Page 3531

1 A. No.

2 Q. When you have been walking around the streets in the country where

3 you have been living, you have been able to see newspaper stalls or

4 shops that sell magazines and newspapers?

5 A. I do not speak the language and I am not interested in reading

6 newspapers.

7 Q. It is not a question of not speaking the language, it is being able

8 to see the pictures of someone who has been on the cover of magazines

9 and on the front page of newspapers?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Are you telling us that you have not seen any pictures of Dusko Tadic

12 in the country where you have been living?

13 A. No, I have not.

14 Q. And when you come to look at an album of photographs four years after

15 those events in Omarska that you had not seen a picture of that man

16 before?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Because what I suggest to you is this, that when you were shown that

19 photograph album in June of this year you had seen other photographs

20 of the man charged before this court?

21 A. Yes. I was given those photographs to see how many there were, how

22 many criminals there were. I recognised the person on the fourth

23 picture because I had seen that person twice before.

24 Q. And you had seen many other people in Omarska for longer periods?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3532

1 Q. What I suggest to you is that you are not telling us the truth about

2 having avoided all photographs and information in the newspapers and

3 on television about this case?

4 A. Sir, there have been many of my family have been killed, and I was

5 not able to look at anything related to that war. How would you

6 behave if you had three of your brother's sons killed or and one

7 nephew? How would you respond to that situation?

8 Q. That is why I am questioning your answers on this matter and

9 understanding the harm that you have suffered, but the point is

10 because of those things that have been so painful to you, are you, in

11 fact, determined to not tell the truth about what you have seen

12 because of the anger you feel about what has wrongly happened to you?

13 A. I am not looking at anything and I refuse to look at anything.

14 Q. Yet, despite that cutting off, as you say, from information or

15 looking at things, you were still prepared to offer yourself as a

16 witness in the case?

17 A. I wanted to and I still want only to say the truth about what people

18 did, and the kind of terror against the Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. Yes, and because of that motivation, has that caused you to be

20 determined to do your bit, as you see it, to say something about a

21 Serb charged in this court even though you did not see him as you

22 claim?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. KAY: Thank you.


Page 3533

1 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour.

2 Re-Examined by MR. KEEGAN

3 Q. Mr. Mesic, is it difficult for you to think about the events which

4 occurred in Bosnia to you and to your family and to others in 1992?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it difficult for you to talk about those events?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Since you left Bosnia have you tried to avoid thinking about and

9 having to talk about those events?

10 A. Yes, I went to see the doctor and I still go to see a psychiatrist,

11 and I have been told whenever I walk to walk by the water and always

12 have somebody accompany me, to steady my nerves.

13 Q. Has it also been difficult on your wife?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Has she, in fact, recently had a heart attack?

16 A. A stroke.

17 Q. When you were approached by members of the Tribunal, did you feel it

18 was your duty to come and give testimony as requested?

19 A. It is my duty and my conscience told me that I had to come, that I

20 had to come and to tell the truth, what is true and not what is a lie.

21 Q. It is not the case that you hold what happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina

22 to you and your family against all Serbs; in fact you already in this

23 court stated that you wanted to protect the identity of a Serb who

24 helped you during that time, is that not true?

25 A. I shall protect him always and I will send him money.

Page 3534

1 Q. Do you remember the faces of some of the other guards in that camp

2 and some of the other prisoners in that camp after all this time?

3 A. Well, I did remember many of them and I know their faces, but I do

4 not know their names.

5 Q. When you recalling Kera Crnalic shot on the pista, that was a very

6 significant event to you, was it not?

7 A. It was a heavy blow.

8 Q. In fact, I believe your testimony yesterday was that you had never

9 seen anyone killed that way before?

10 A. No, I had not.

11 Q. You still carry that memory with you?

12 A. My Lords, if and when I talk about this I feel bad. I do not feel

13 like talking about it because all those images come back to me from

14 Omarska, from Manjaca. They are all before my eyes -- even now.

15 Q. The image of that shooting that you have includes the face of the

16 guard who killed Kera as well as the man who was identified to you as

17 Tadic, is that right?

18 A. Always.

19 Q. You got a clear look at that man's face, the man identified to you as

20 Tadic?

21 MR. KAY: With respect to my learned friend, I think that these series of

22 questions ---


24 MR. KAY: -- have been of an extent of leading a witness that is

25 unacceptable and that the conclusion should come from the witness,

Page 3535

1 your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will sustain the objection.

3 MR. KAY: Thank you very much.

4 MR. KEEGAN: When you were in the hallway in the administration building

5 the next day after the shooting ---

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- were you able to get a clear look at the face of the man sitting

8 at the table in the corridor?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. Are you sure that was the same man you had seen the day before?

11 A. I am sure -- yes, it is gospel truth.

12 MR. KEEGAN: Nothing further, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, recross?

14 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.

15 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, I have one question to ask you, I do not think it

16 has emerged as yet: you said yesterday that they took your brother

17 away and three of his sons, and it says in the transcript a brother of

18 a son. That seems to be an error, perhaps, but have you seen any of

19 those family members since then again?

20 A. No.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have just one question, Mr. Mesic, do you recall

23 the approximate date that you were taken to Omarska?

24 A. I do not.

25 Q. Can you tell us the month?

Page 3536

1 A. June.

2 Q. June of 1992?

3 A. Yes.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Additional questions, Mr. Keegan?

5 MR. KEEGAN: To clarify that, your Honour, I think we can clarify it in

6 relation to events.

7 Further cross-examined by MR. KEEGAN

8 Q. Mr. Mesic, are you able to tell the Court approximately how many days

9 after the attack on Hambarine you were taken to Omarska camp?

10 A. Four or five days.

11 Q. To follow up one additional question, you indicated that yesterday

12 approximately how many days were you in the small garage before you

13 went to interrogation and were placed on the pista?

14 A. About 25 days.

15 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, has the date of the attack on Hambarine

17 been identified through this witness?

18 MR. KEEGAN: No, ma'am.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Certainly other witnesses?

20 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, ma'am.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I was really trying to place this in context. I

22 think I can do it by looking at other witnesses. Fine. Thank you very

23 much. Mr. Kay, do you have additional questions?

24 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Mr. Mesic being permanently

Page 3537

1 excused?

2 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Mesic, you are permanently excused. That means

4 you may leave and thank you very much for coming today and yesterday.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

6 (The witness withdrew)

7 JUDGE STEPHEN: While the next witness is coming, could you just remind me

8 of the date of the attack on Hambarine, if you have it?

9 MR. KAY: 23rd May.

10 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

11 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, the next witness is a witness who is under

12 conditions of protection.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, I forgot. Thank you for reminding me. Excuse

14 me one minute.

15 The next witness has been granted protective measures that

16 will, inter alia, allow the image distortion of his face, but he will

17 testify in the Court room. In order to give this witness the full

18 protection that has been ordered, we will need to stand in recess for

19 five or 10 minutes for the blinds to be lowered. The witness will

20 then be brought in and the necessary adjustments will be made. So we

21 will stand in recess for 10 minutes


23 (10.45 a.m.)

24 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

25 (11.00 a.m.)

Page 3538

1 Witness R was called

2 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

3 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

4 (The witness was sworn)

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, sir, you may be seated.

6 Examined by MR. KEEGAN

7 MR. KEEGAN: For the record, Mr. R, could you take a look at the name on

8 this piece of paper and indicate if that is your correct name?

9 A. Yes, it is correct.

10 Q. Mr. Bos, if you could please show that to Mr. Wladimiroff? Sir, in

11 what year were you born?

12 A. I was born on 7th June 1964.

13 Q. You were raised in Prijedor in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you attend primary and secondary school there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you serve your compulsory military service?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In what year was that?

20 A. 1984.

21 Q. What were you trained as during your military service?

22 A. I was a military policeman, trained as a military policeman.

23 Q. After your compulsory military service, did you do any reserve

24 military service?

25 A. Yes, on the reserve force of the JNA.

Page 3539

1 Q. How many times did you do reserve service?

2 A. Well, it happened -- once I did a longer drill of a month, a month

3 and something, and there were also cases when we would be called up

4 for a day only.

5 Q. For how many years did you do this reserve service?

6 A. Well, until 1990.

7 Q. After that were you excused from military service?

8 A. Yes, for reasons of health.

9 Q. During the time that you lived in Prijedor after your military

10 service, what was your profession or occupation?

11 A. Commerce. I was a trader, a merchant, a salesman in stores of a

12 supermarket kind, self-service stores, things like that.

13 Q. Did you also have training as a butcher?

14 A. Well, yes, more or less you might say that I could work as a butcher.

15 Q. When did you stop working in the Prijedor area?

16 A. I stopped working in Prijedor on 25th May '92. That is when my work

17 record was closed.

18 Q. Why was your work record closed? Do you know?

19 A. Yes, one day I was told off, the work, and on that day I no longer

20 performed my professional duties, and the explanation that is in my

21 work record, job record, which I collected from my company, there was

22 this explanation, one of the explanations, was because of the

23 rebellion against the Republika Srpska.

24 Q. What part of the town of Prijedor did you live in?

25 A. The part of the town, the so-called Stari Grad, old town, well-known.

Page 3540

1 Q. Were you arrested at your home?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What date was that?

4 A. May 30th all right.

5 Q. Sir, can you describe how that arrest took place?

6 A. Yes, on 30th May early in the morning, and it was early, very early,

7 we could hear gunfire and bursts and detonations over a broader area

8 around Stari Grad, and this gunfire was coming ever closer. We did

9 not go out. We simply switched on the radio and we heard Radio

10 Prijedor, its programme, and it was informing us that all citizens

11 should hoist up white flags in order to mark their house and that

12 citizens should not be concerned about their security, that allegedly

13 a group of Muslim extremists had attacked the town of Prijedor and

14 that shortly, if at all, it would all come under the reliable control

15 of the army of Republika Srpska, and that is how it was.

16 We spent the whole day in the house and the different

17 detonations were coming ever closer and ever stronger. It was the

18 fire from tanks which were laying waste to the town, and so we stayed

19 in the house until half past 4.

20 Q. Did you put out some sort of a white flag in front of your house, as

21 the radio indicated?

22 A. Yes, my brother put up a white flag on the hedge, on the boundary, on

23 the hedge.

24 Q. What later happened at your house?

25 A. A very short while later, it was in the afternoon around half past

Page 3541

1 4, we had a very wide door on the house which was not locked because

2 we were expecting somebody to appear there any moment, and that is how

3 it was two soldiers turned up. They kicked the door open, and they

4 entered and in a very aggressive language, "Your balija mother, fuck

5 you, Alija", and so on, "Get out" and we all went out in a very

6 disciplined way. Nobody even thought, dared to think, let alone try

7 to do something, and when we came out in the street there were already

8 our neighbours, well-known people also and several soldiers in

9 uniforms, uniforms of the Yugoslav People's Army who had arm bands,

10 white, and had still the old JNA caps on their heads. Some had the

11 five pointed stars and some had fur hats, very tall with Chetnik

12 markings, with kokardas.

13 Q. What type of uniforms were those people wearing?

14 A. Some had SMB uniforms and some even the camouflage uniforms.

15 Q. You said your neighbours were also being rounded up. What type of

16 people were they rounding up?

17 A. Yes. In that part there were only two Serb households, all the

18 others were Muslims. There was the house of Zeljko married to a

19 Muslim woman, and a lad whom we called Mandala who still lives in the

20 old town and he now lives in Dzemal's house.

21 Q. In the street?

22 A. In the street they were all Muslims, old children, we, the adults of

23 various ages.

24 Q. On the translation it says "Muslim old children", did you intend to

25 say "Muslim old and children"?

Page 3542

1 A. Old people and children, they were all Muslims.

2 Q. From your street where were the people taken?

3 A. We started from that street to Cerica Sokak. We passed by Djogo

4 Dzemal's house and went down by lime trees to the River Sana. In

5 front of us were the Prijedor bridge and the Prijedor Hotel, so we

6 went down below the lime trees and reached the concrete bridge in

7 front of the garden restaurant.

8 Q. From the bridge where was everyone taken?

9 A. After the bridge, we were standing there as tanks were parked there

10 and trucks with canisters on them with new Bosnian plates; and from

11 thence we went across the bridge on the Berek. We went to a place

12 called Ciganuluk where there were blacksmiths and we passed by the

13 house of Suljo Garnic and reached the park in front of the town hall

14 of Prijedor where there was a monument to Mladen Stojanovic and we

15 spent in that park sometime.

16 Q. What happened in the park?

17 A. In the park which was planted with birches, with birch trees, there

18 were more armed uniformed soldiers whom we found there, and there

19 after a very short while they separated us, the men over the age of 15

20 from their wives and mothers and children, and we headed for SUP; and

21 they were sent to the sports hall, "Mladost", which was in the

22 immediate vicinity of the police building.

23 Q. Mr. R, you said "they were sent to the sports hall", who was "they"?

24 Who were sent to the sports hall?

25 A. They were, displaced children below the age of 15 and old people and

Page 3543

1 women, just even as my wife and my two-year and two years and 27 days

2 old child was also sent there.

3 Q. Where were the men taken in the SUP?

4 A. We, who were separated there, were sent in the direction of SUP, the

5 so-called police. As we were entering the SUP, there were quite a

6 number of soldiers and policemen, different, who served there, who

7 worked there. As we were passing through the lobby or the corridor

8 of the police station, we had to pass through a cordon of officers --

9 of soldiers and policemen who beat us ruthlessly.

10 Q. You said that they were a cordon of soldiers and policemen, how could

11 you tell the difference between who was a soldier and who was a

12 policeman?

13 A. Of course I could; soldiers were in SMB uniforms and camouflage

14 clothes and the policemen wore blue uniforms and looked much tidier,

15 much neater, than the soldiers. I knew quite a lot of those

16 policeman.

17 Q. You recognised some of those policemen?

18 A. Yes, of the Reserve Police strength there was Radic from Urije called

19 "Grga" who work for Drustrena Ishrana in Ljubija. Drustrena Ishrana of

20 the Ljubija mine which was in Prijedor.

21 Q. The people that you recognised there, what ethnic group were they?

22 A. Serbs, of Serb descent.

23 Q. After you passed through that cordon of police and soldiers, where

24 were you taken in the police station?

25 A. When in the station we were taken into the -- on the grounds of the

Page 3544

1 military police where they kept their cars and vehicles and trucks,

2 and there was a building something like a warehouse for armaments and

3 storage, and it was as one went out from the lobby one faced directly

4 that building.

5 Q. That area described by some as a "courtyard"?

6 A. Yes, a courtyard closed from one side. On one side there was a high

7 concrete wall with barbed wired, and the entrance had sliding doors

8 with one ball, with one ball bearing so that they could move.

9 Q. Once you were in that courtyard area, what were you told to do?

10 A. The orders were to stand with our arms spread and lean with three

11 fingers against a wall which was very rough against this wall, and

12 that is what we had to do. Then we had to take off our shoes,

13 everything, we had to be bare foot, and that is how we stood there.

14 Q. What occurred then, sir?

15 A. What occurred then, very horrible things occurred then. Whoever

16 passed by beat us. They paid no attention if he was a young man or an

17 old man. They did that and throw invectives at us -- horrible.

18 Q. What were you beaten with?

19 A. From the police baton to boards to planks, all sorts of objects,

20 boots, batons across the kidneys, the spine, the neck, genitals. They

21 trod on our feet -- everything.

22 Q. Were you told to sing while you were in the courtyard?

23 A. Yes, we were ordered to sing. We all kept silent and then one of

24 those military there yelled at us and said, "Now you are going to

25 sing? You have had enough of your Muslim songs".

Page 3545

1 Q. What did you sing?

2 A. Well, we simply of all the Serb propaganda that we heard day in and

3 day out, it occurred to us to sing the Serb song "Who says who lies

4 that Serbia is small", and we sang it and a whole choir sang it. I

5 mean, each one sang it for himself but they were quite happy with it.

6 Q. While you were in that courtyard at one point did you take the

7 opportunity to look up at the windows above in the building?

8 A. Yes, on the window of the police building there was Simo Miskovic --

9 a tall man, very smart.

10 Q. Do you know what his position was in the municipality?

11 A. Well, he was a member of the SDS and he also had his coffee bar in

12 the Mrakovica cinema, in the town itself.

13 Q. How long approximately do you believe you were in that courtyard?

14 A. We were there until about 8.00, half past 8, for some two or three

15 hours.

16 Q. From that courtyard where were you taken?

17 A. We were taken to buses which were already waiting ready for things

18 like that, just as all my neighbours were taken away by those buses.

19 Q. How were you told to sit in those buses?

20 A. As a man would board that bus and there were up to four persons in

21 seats meant for two, and we also had to bend our heads very low,

22 almost below the seats so that the buses from the outside looked as

23 empty.

24 Q. Where did you end up after that bus trip?

25 A. We ended up next to the Balkan Hotel where there were other citizens

Page 3546

1 of Muslim descent who were also boarded on to those buses. Then we

2 went on also in front of the police, and we followed the so-called

3 Celuloska Street by the pulp and paper factory. That is what we named

4 it after. We passed the factory and came out to the bank of the Sana

5 River, and then we turned left and then we crossed the bridge on the

6 Gomjenica River and went through the so-called Serb Gomjenica and then

7 we went through Cela, Sanicani and followed the high street. Then we

8 turned left off the main road towards a place called Maricka, and then

9 we headed for Omarska.

10 Q. When you arrived at Omarska and were taken off the buses what

11 occurred?

12 A. As we were getting off the buses, and it was a very slow business

13 because we all had to be searched. So when the first bus was

14 unboarded, all men had to stand against the wall also with their arms

15 and legs spread as they were searched one by one. Then out of the

16 blue two soldiers turned up and they fired a burst of -- they fired a

17 burst of fire and two men fell.

18 Q. Two men, what two men? Were they detainees or were they policemen or

19 soldiers?

20 A. Yes, those were prisoners.

21 Q. When you were taken off the bus where were you taken to?

22 A. We were also taken towards that wall, and then two guards came with

23 two buckets of water and washed away the blood as if nothing had

24 happened.

25 Q. Were you also searched while you were against the wall?

Page 3547

1 A. Yes, we were searched and directed towards the building against which

2 we had been leaning. In the corridor we were met by a clerk, a fair

3 boy, shortish, and a young man whom I knew very well because of all

4 the sports and games. His nickname was Djaja and I think he had his

5 video store I believe it was in Omarska.

6 Q. This Djaja, what did he do?

7 A. He took our particulars, noted them down, the name, the date of

8 birth and where we came from -- everything that is normally on an ID

9 card.

10 Q. After you gave your particulars to him, where were you taken?

11 A. In the extension as one passes by that table, there was a large room.

12 It looked very cold. It was desolate and that is where I found my

13 neighbours and my acquaintances from the first bus.

14 Q. What building what was that room in?

15 A. That was in the administrative building against which we had to lean.

16 Q. How many days did you end up spending in that room?

17 A. Well, about 20 days.

18 Q. Did that room have a name?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was that room called?

21 A. It was called "Mujo's room". It was named after another prisoner,

22 inmate, Mujo Crnovic.

23 Q. Why was it named after that prisoner?

24 A. Why it was named after him because the guards, some of the superiors,

25 some of those supposed to maintain order amongst us, he was

Page 3548

1 responsible for us, he took us to lunch every day in columns of 30.

2 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if that would be a convenient time?

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We understood that you would need about 45 minutes

4 for direct?

5 MR. KEEGAN: That is an estimate, your Honour. Since we are not getting

6 to the critical part, I am more than happy to carry on.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is fine. I do not know about

8 cross-examination. We can stand in recess for 20 minutes then.

9 (11.30 a.m.)

10 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

11 (11.50 a.m.)

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, you may continue.

13 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. R, when we

14 broke for the recess you indicated you had been in Mujo's room, I

15 believe, for about 20 days?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. From Mujo's room where did you go in the camp?

18 A. After that everybody from that room was sent to the place called

19 "pista", which is outside the administration building where we had

20 been staying on the ground floor, and there was some sorting out at

21 that point. The minors and the old people and the sickly people who

22 had problems with health, they had priority to enter that room and

23 that is how it happened. The others remained on the pista.

24 Q. By that room do you mean Mujo's room?

25 A. Yes, I mean Mujo's room.

Page 3549

1 Q. While you were on the pista were you taken for an interrogation?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How did that come about?

4 A. On some days there had been very rapid interrogations and some

5 strange and hard things happened. We were all frightened because we

6 had seen all these people coming back from interrogation in a very,

7 very bad condition, covered with blood. Some of them were brought in

8 blankets, carried in blankets, and they all said that in such cases,

9 "We want two strong men to carry this person" and we knew from that

10 that someone had been beaten up very, very badly.

11 Q. What did you do as a result of seeing all of these things?

12 A. While I was looking at that, watching that with my own eyes, I just,

13 I simply wanted either to survive or to have the same fate of the

14 previous ones and that is what I did. I had seen a guard with a

15 police uniform, a blue uniform. He seemed very different from the

16 others. He did not have any weapons on his person and he was unarmed.

17 One day I made a decision. I walked up to him. He had a nickname,

18 that is what we called him by, Kole. I walked up to him and asked

19 him, "Is there any possibility for me to be called out so that I can

20 have that worry, get over that worry?" He said he will look into that

21 and I wrote my name and gave it to him on a piece of paper, and after

22 a certain time he came out and called me out and then I followed him

23 to the office, to the interrogation office, which was on the ground

24 floor.

25 Q. So the interrogation office you were taken to was on the ground

Page 3550

1 floor?

2 A. Yes, there was an office on the ground floor. The others were around

3 the circular staircase leading up to the upstairs.

4 Q. Do you know the name of the person who interrogated you?

5 A. Yes, the person who interrogated me when I entered the office, I

6 simply entered the office and sat down in a chair, he addressed me and

7 said, "You have already sat down". Then I jumped up again. I said,

8 "I can stand up if I sat down". He said, "No problem, just keep

9 sitting". There was another person with him. Then he introduced

10 himself to me. He said, "My name is Balaban, I am from Banja Luka" --

11 a young man about 36 or 38 years old, tall, blond, handsome you might

12 say.

13 Q. What type of questions did he ask you during this interrogation?

14 A. During this interrogation he asked me questions about where I was

15 from, what I did for a living, what I had been working as a civilian,

16 doing as a civilian, mostly easy questions. He asked me also if I

17 went fishing, if I went fishing, I said, yes; if I had a hobby -- they

18 were mostly easy questions -- if I was a member of a political party;

19 I said I had never been interested in politics, and I had never been a

20 member of the presidency of the youth organisation. The only

21 political thing I did was my pledge as a pioneer. I had never been a

22 member of the Communist Party of the former Yugoslavia.

23 Q. Did he ask you about any particular people from Prijedor?

24 A. Yes, he mentioned Dedo Crnalic.

25 Q. What did he ask you about Dedo Crnalic?

Page 3551

1 A. He asked me if I knew him, if I had gone to his cafe, "yes", I said,

2 "I had been there", we used to gather together there, although there

3 were one or two other cafes near Dedo's cafe. He asked me what sort

4 of people met there and what they had talked about. I said I had not

5 been interested in that; on one occasion he asked me to work for him

6 in the cafe and I refused.

7 Q. Were you beaten during this interrogation?

8 A. No, there was only one person, a tall man. He walked behind my back

9 and every moment I expected him to hit me. I was very tense.

10 Q. After the interrogation what did this Balaban tell you?

11 A. Balaban told me that I should not worry at all, that I would spend

12 the rest of my time there peacefully, that I was not one of those

13 people who belonged to the groups, as they called them, first, second

14 and third group, and he said, "You are in the third group". I did not

15 understand anything about these numbers, first, second or third group.

16 Q. From the interrogation where did you return to?

17 A. I returned to the pista.

18 Q. How long did you spend on the pista then?

19 A. I spent a certain period of time, so I was returned to Mujo's room

20 again and after a large number of names were called I was transferred

21 to the hangar, to the room where the heavy coal mining machinery was

22 located, dump trucks, etc.

23 Q. When you were returned to Mujo's room did you find a place in that

24 room where you could lay down?

25 A. Yes, I did find myself a place. It was a very, very small space.

Page 3552

1 There was very hardly any space at all, but I had to simply make do

2 with what I had.

3 Q. What was that space that you found?

4 A. That was the place in the toilet itself. On the grill where boots

5 were washed and there were three taps there, one of which was working.

6 During the entire day we stood there because water was very

7 important, very much in need, and during the night one individual who

8 was nicknamed "Doc" or "Doctor", he worked in the work brigade, he had

9 a pair of pliers, and every night he closed the tap so that I could

10 sleep there and there were three of us sleeping at that grill, three

11 of us like sardines, lined up like sardines.

12 Q. Excuse me, Mr. R. If I could have this photo marked as the next

13 exhibit in order -- that will be 244 -- and handed to the witness,

14 please? (To the witness): Mr. R, do you recognise that photograph?

15 A. Yes, I do. This is the photograph showing the area right next to the

16 entrance to the toilet, the only door to the toilet, and behind there

17 were three toilets which were always blocked. There was excrement all

18 over the area.

19 Q. Is that the grate where you spent your nights?

20 A. Yes, nights, many nights.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Does the Defence have a copy of this?

22 MR. KEEGAN: I do not believe they have an actual copy of the photograph.

23 They were shown the photograph, your Honour.


25 MR. KEEGAN (To the witness): Mr. R, please, if you would stand in your

Page 3553

1 spot, I would remind you, please, to move slowly when you stand, and

2 if you could use that pointer in front of you and point on the model

3 the area known as Mujo's room -- using the model, please? Stand and

4 point on the model where Mujo's room was.

5 A. This was the entrance to Mujo's room, as in front outside there were

6 two big tubs with taps on top and in the middle there was a metal

7 grill, so that the workers were able to wash their boots and all the

8 mud went through because there was a pipe taking this dirty water

9 down. This was the entrance to Mujo's room, A5, and right next to it

10 there was a door, there was the WC, the toilet. The room here is

11 marked as A4, as far as I can see. This area was Mujo's room. There

12 was a small room here. We called it the "gentlemen's room" because

13 that is where Dedo Crnalic was, Asif Kapetanovic, Mursel and Esad

14 Sadikovic.

15 Q. Sir, while you are still standing with the pointer, could you also

16 point to the area in the hangar building where you said you were taken

17 after you were moved out of Mujo's room?

18 A. After I was taken out of Mujo's room -----

19 Q. Move back a little bit. I realise it is difficult. You cannot lean

20 over too far, that is all:

21 A. There was a third door here. This is where the dumpers were parked

22 and in this area there was barbed wired, about three strands of barbed

23 wired, and on the left-hand side there was an old demper with a

24 machine gun on top of it.

25 Q. During the time that you were on the pista, did you ever see a man

Page 3554

1 who was identified to you as Dusko Tadic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you describe those circumstances to the Court, please?

4 A. Yes, while on one occasion we were sitting on the pista, there was a

5 large number there, one individual from the area of Kozarac was

6 sitting in my immediate vicinity and so we were talking, chatting.

7 The only topic was, are we going back home today, tomorrow? That

8 individual sitting next to me pointed out to me, said, "That is

9 Dusko". I did not pay any attention. He bent down and I turned my

10 head towards the white house. At that moment Dusko was coming out of

11 the white house. The person, the individual, passed. He went left

12 behind the house to a lawn.

13 Q. First off, this area behind the white house, what was kept there or

14 put there?

15 A. There were mostly bodies there. Sometimes those bodies would remain

16 there for the whole day and the following morning a small lorry would

17 transport them out of the area. It was sort of orange yellow colour

18 -- more orange than yellow.

19 Q. Before the war did you personally know a man named Dusko Tadic?

20 A. Only from the media, from the newspapers.

21 Q. This man who was sitting next to you who you say was from Kozarac, do

22 you remember his name?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was that?

25 A. I remember his surname, but I cannot remember his name. Hrnic was his

Page 3555

1 surname, as far as I remember. Yes, I remember this quite well.

2 Q. When you saw this man come out of the white house and he was

3 identified to you as Dusko, did you have any recognition when you saw

4 the man, saw his face?

5 A. In a few moments I created the impression from the newspapers, the

6 image came to my mind, a picture, mostly on the sports page of the

7 paper.

8 Q. What do you mean a picture came to your mind from the sports page of

9 the paper?

10 A. This is the sports column which was published weekly in the newspaper

11 Kozarski Vjesnik, which was a weekly, and there was a lot of sports

12 news, handball, basketball, judo, karate. There were individual

13 sports treated in that on that page.

14 Q. What picture did you have in your mind that you had seen before, what

15 did it relate to?

16 A. I had remembered because at that time young people having seen many

17 karate films had decided to become karate people, karate sportsmen,

18 and that was the section on karate.

19 Q. When you saw the man identified to you as Dusko come out of the white

20 house, did you get a clear look at his face?

21 A. Yes, my view was not obstructed at all.

22 Q. Do you recall what that man was wearing?

23 A. Yes, he was wearing a multi-coloured jacket.

24 Q. What did the pattern of that jacket remind you of?

25 A. The multi-coloured jacket reminded me of the colour of the skin of a

Page 3556

1 giraffe, the colour of a giraffe hide, skin.

2 Q. After you saw the man identified to you as Dusko on that day, did you

3 ever see him again in the camp?

4 A. I did not see him.

5 Q. During the time you were in the camp did you ever spend any time in

6 the white house?

7 A. Yes, on a July day, on a day in July 1992.

8 Q. Why were you in the white house?

9 A. That day after lunch we were sitting on the pista, it was very, very

10 hot and humid and suddenly there was a summer shower, so we were

11 separated into two groups. One group went to room 15 in the hangar

12 and some of us went to the white house, in the direction of the white

13 house, to the two rooms in the back and a toilet which had not been

14 finished yet in the white house.

15 Q. While you were in the white house, did you witness any beatings?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Can you describe the beating that you witnessed on that day?

18 A. Yes. That day we were in the white house, in those two rooms and one

19 toilet which had not been completed yet. We had a very painful time,

20 because we passed the prisoners, the inmates, who had been placed in

21 the left room as you go into the white house, both the room to the

22 left and to the right. After a short time three individuals appeared

23 at the door, Duca Knezevic, Zeljko Timarac and followed by, following

24 them was Emir Ramic nicknamed "Hankin". The order was, "I want half

25 of the space emptied". That is what we did. We all crammed into one

Page 3557

1 corner, so there was a large area that was empty. Then Duca was

2 holding a baton in his hand and Emir was standing in front of him. He

3 had a list in his hand and was looking for one individual. Then he

4 went from one person to another hitting them on the head, "What is

5 your name? Where are you from?" We all said normally, "I am from

6 such and such a place" until he came to a person about 42 or 45 years

7 old, a shorter person, who was wearing a leather jacket. He was with

8 us, and Duca asked him, "What is your name?" He said, "Dalija Hrnic".

9 "How come you are here? Fuck your mother. Go to this other room and

10 wait for me". Dalija said, "You must have confused me with somebody

11 else". "I do not want to know anything. Just go over to this other

12 room", and he did. He asked us all these questions.

13 Nothing happened to us after that. Then he asked Emir Ramic,

14 "Do you know these people here?" He said, "No, I do not. They are

15 people from the country". That is what Emir answered. Then there was

16 a very, very strong blow with a baton across the entire head. There

17 was blood all over him. He was very smartly dressed. He was wearing

18 a white shirt, a summer shirt. He looked awful. He fell down

19 immediately. Then Zeljko threw him out and told him to wait outside

20 the white house on the left-hand side.

21 Emir was standing there. Then they went into the small room

22 of the white house where there were some other prisoners who looked

23 awful, horrible. There was blood on the walls, on the tiles, all over

24 the place. Then Duca and Zeljko went into the small room and started

25 beating people there.

Page 3558

1 Q. Which room of the white house was that, sir, that small room?

2 A. The first on the left as you enter the white house.

3 Q. Did that room have a name, did the prisoners have a name for that

4 room?

5 A. Yes, everybody called it shock room, like intensive care room,

6 because the people looked awful who were there.

7 Q. You said that Duca and Zeljko were in that room and started beating

8 people. What could you see?

9 A. I was standing outside the door to the small room. Then Zeljko and

10 Duca came in and started beating Dalija Hrnic. There was Becir

11 Medunjanin there whom they kicked like an old ball. They kicked him

12 out into the corridor. The man was lying down on his back. Then

13 Zeljko Timarac started beating him up really badly, really cruelly.

14 He was jumping on his chest. My impression was that his boot came all

15 the way down to the floor when he jumped on his chest. He did not say

16 anything to Becir. He was almost, he was almost out of his

17 consciousness and he had blood and foam coming out of his mouth,

18 trickling down. It was horrible.

19 Then Timarac picked him up by his feet and drew him, dragged

20 him back into the small room. Then we were thrown out and Emir was

21 returned to the small room. We were returned to the pista because the

22 rain had stopped. Then there were two shots, two handgun shots.

23 After that I never saw Emir Ramic again.

24 Q. Mr. R, do you know the full name of that man you have referred to as

25 "Duca"?

Page 3559

1 A. Yes, that person is called Dusko or Duca Knezevic from Orlovac.

2 Q. Did you know that man before the war?

3 A. Yes, I had heard from my coworkers about him, since he is older than

4 I am, in my profession.

5 Q. Had you actually met him before the war?

6 A. Yes, I had seen him in passing, but I never spent any time with him.

7 Q. Was there any similarity physically between he and the man who was

8 identified to you as "Tadic"?

9 A. I would not say so.

10 MR. KAY: Just one matter, the witness did not, as I understood it and as

11 I recollect -- I may be wrong about this -- have identified as

12 "Tadic".

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He said "Dusko".

14 MR. KAY: Yes, that is right.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are correct.

16 MR. KAY: I am grateful to your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, you understand?

18 MR. KEEGAN: I understand it was Dusko, which he then said, "and then I

19 had the picture in my mind that it was Dusko Tadic whom I had seen in

20 the paper". Yes, your Honour, you are correct that he was identified

21 as "Dusko". (To the witness): What was the physical build of this

22 man, Duca Knezevic?

23 A. Duca?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Yes, he had a pot belly. He was heavily built. He was short -- I

Page 3560

1 could not tell you how tall he was -- and rather broad shoulders. He

2 had a big stomach.

3 Q. In your opinion, was there any similarity between the face of the man

4 Duca Knezevic and the man identified to you as Dusko?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How long did you spend in Omarska camp?

7 A. I spent the time from 30th May until 6th August 1992.

8 Q. Just prior to your leaving the camp, did visitors come to the camp?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who were those visitors?

11 A. Newspaper people and cameramen.

12 Q. Where were you taken from Omarska?

13 A. From Omarska I was about 700, 720 or 730 of us were transferred to

14 Trnopolje.

15 Q. How much time did you spend in the Trnopolje camp?

16 A. About 20 days.

17 Q. While you were in the Trnopolje camp were you given any jobs to do?

18 A. No jobs, but we had to make ourselves a tent so we could sleep, we

19 would have a shelter so we would not be out in the open.

20 Q. Where did you get the materials to make the shelter?

21 A. The material was given to us from the wire, the fence that had been

22 used to fence in the entire camp of Trnopolje.

23 Q. That fencing was taken down and then used by the people to build

24 shelters?

25 A. Yes, they were mostly reinforcement steel for use in construction,

Page 3561

1 square grills, and we used them to make a mini igloo which could have

2 been bent into an arch, and then we had to press it down with stones

3 so that it would not bend back.

4 Q. After you left the Trnopolje camp where did you go?

5 A. I returned to Prijedor.

6 Q. While you were in Prijedor did you have a chance to see the area or

7 town known as Stari Grad again?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you describe what you saw?

10 A. When I came to Prijedor, we had already heard in Omarska it had been

11 raised to the ground, and one day I went to Sanski Most and the bridge

12 which linked Tukovi and the town, and one could see everything from

13 that bridge. It was autumn. There were no leaves or anything. All

14 one could see were three residential buildings, houses, there. Only

15 Dzemal Djogo's house, a man who worked for the biscuit factory, was

16 still surviving. His wife used to work at the medical centre.

17 Then another house was the old building which we used to call

18 "Lovac", "Hunter", because it housed the hunters' club on the upper

19 floor and on the ground floor there was a coffee bar. Next to the

20 bridge at the entrance into Stari Grad there was a summer garden.

21 Once upon a time there was a summer, an open air cinema and

22 discotheque. Those were the only three buildings and to this day.

23 Q. Could Exhibit 79, the map of Prijedor, be given to the witness,

24 please, and placed on the elmo? Could you zoom in closer, please?

25 Thank you.

Page 3562

1 A. Right, good.

2 Q. Mr. R, using the pointer, could you point out on the map next to you,

3 not on the screen, where Stari Grad is?

4 A. Here.

5 Q. What was the ethnic group of the population who lived in that area

6 before the war?

7 A. In that part the ethnic group was Muslim, most 100 per cent, except

8 that I said that Zeljko lived there in a mixed marriage, and the

9 person that I mentioned, Mandala, his name is Milan. There was nobody

10 else.

11 Q. In June of this year were you shown a book of photographs by an

12 investigator from the Tribunal?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did that book have a number on its cover?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you remember what that number was?

17 A. No. 10.

18 Q. If I could have this marked as the next Exhibit in order which, I

19 believe, would be 245 and handed to the witness? While that is being

20 done, your Honour, I would tender Exhibit 244 which was the photograph

21 which I neglected to do earlier.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 244?

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: The same as the previous objection, your Honour; it is

24 an ongoing objection.


Page 3563

1 MR. KEEGAN: 244 was just the photograph of the grate.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is the photograph of the grate, the grate in the --

3 244 was the grate where the witness testified that he slept with some

4 other prisoners.

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: There is no objection to that one, sorry.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is OK. That will be admitted.

7 MR. KEEGAN: I apologise, your Honour.


9 MR. KEEGAN (To the witness): Mr. R, if you could look at that book,

10 please, which has been given to you and tell me if you recognise it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is that the book shown to you by the investigator from the Tribunal?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When the investigator handed you that book what did he say to you?

15 A. All he said was to look at this album. He said nothing else.

16 Q. Did you look at each picture in the book?

17 A. Yes, yes, the whole sequence very carefully.

18 Q. Did you recognise any photograph?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Whose photograph did you recognise?

21 A. It is the photograph which is the 11th here and that is the

22 photograph of Dusko Tadic.

23 Q. The photograph, is that the man who was identified to you as "Dusko"

24 in Omarska camp?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3564

1 Q. After you identified that photograph for the investigator, did you do

2 anything else with the book, with the photograph?

3 A. Yes, I signed on the back of the photograph.

4 MR. KEEGAN: I would offer Exhibit 245, your Honour. A copy has already

5 been provided to the Defence.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, the objection, the standing

7 objection, that you have to the use of the photospread, that will be

8 overruled. Exhibit 245 will be admitted.

9 MR. KEEGAN: Mr. R, is there any doubt in your mind that the photograph of

10 the man you identified in the book is the same man whom you saw in

11 Omarska camp that was identified to you as "Dusko"?

12 A. I have no doubts at all.

13 MR. KEEGAN: No further questions, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

15 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

16 Cross-Examined by Mr. Kay.

17 Q. Mr. R, when were you first asked to be a witness in this case?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell me the date that you were first asked to become a

20 witness in this case?

21 A. The first time I cannot remember.

22 Q. Was it this year?

23 A. I believe so.

24 Q. Had you ever made a statement to anyone else about matters with which

25 you were concerned in Omarska before you gave any statement to the

Page 3565

1 Prosecution in this case?

2 A. No one else, except on that occasion.

3 Q. How long was it before you gave that statement to the Prosecution for

4 this case were you approached, or did you approach them?

5 A. They approached me.

6 Q. Was that the same day that you gave them a statement, or was it some

7 time before?

8 A. Well, there was perhaps a day in between. It was very quickly when

9 they found me and established contact with me and I accepted it.

10 Q. If I said to you that the day that you gave that statement was 5th

11 January 1996, would you agree with that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Before that time were you aware of the case to be brought

14 against Dusko Tadic, that he was to be prosecuted in this court and

15 had been arrested in Germany?

16 A. No, I never gave it a thought.

17 Q. Were you aware of the fact that he was being put through legal

18 proceedings in Germany before a prosecution against him by this Court

19 was brought about?

20 A. Of all the press that I follow, I only follow the sports. I am not

21 interested in anything else.

22 Q. Well, it may be that you are not interested in anything else, but

23 would you agree with me that sometimes you cannot help noticing things

24 that you might not be particularly interested in because they happen

25 to be on the television or they happen to be on the front pages of

Page 3566

1 newspapers?

2 A. I do not understand you.

3 Q. Well, when you look at a newspaper it may be that it has the front

4 page facing you first of all, and you have to turn to the back pages

5 or whatever part of the newspaper that deals with sport?

6 A. I use only sports papers, sports press, no other papers.

7 Q. You had been in Omarska for nearly three months, is that right?

8 A. From May 30th until August 6th, it is not three months. It is a

9 little less than three months.

10 Q. Let us just call it three months for the sake of convenience.

11 A. No, only exactly, precisely as long I stay there. I never tried to

12 misappropriate anything and you are now trying to misappropriate some

13 days, and days in Omarska were years.

14 Q. Yes, and you bear a great deal of hatred to the people who put you in

15 Omarska, do you not?

16 A. No, I never hated anyone. I even had my best man and those who were

17 God fathers to my child and those who circumcised my child, they were

18 of a different ethnic descent. My best man was Goljan and another

19 best -- and the one who circumcised my child was a Serb, of Serb

20 descent, a pure Serb.

21 Q. Perhaps if you would listen to the question, the question was of the

22 people who put you in Omarska, not Serbian friends that you may have

23 had?

24 A. I do not hate anyone, and my mother did not bring me up to hate

25 anyone. I never saw the police before that day when they took me

Page 3567

1 there. The only contact I have had with the police before that was to

2 get out my ID and a passport. We were a nice family.

3 Q. After you were in Omarska you were also in Trnopolje for about three

4 weeks, is that right?

5 A. Or more accurately not more than 20 days.

6 Q. In the four years, three and a half years, after this period of your

7 life, you were aware, were you not, of the news and discussion

8 concerning allegations against Serbians for what had happened in the

9 former Yugoslavia?

10 A. I am telling you once again, that horror is something that I do not

11 follow, I do not watch it, because what we went through in Omarska is

12 worse than any Hitchcock's horror film. I get goose flesh whenever I

13 think of those things.

14 Q. So are you saying that you took no interest in these matters if there

15 was a programme about them on television or there was an article in a

16 newspaper about these matters in all that time?

17 A. Why would it interest me since I experienced it myself and I know it

18 all only too well? I need no prompters to awaken memories of it in

19 me.

20 Q. But you were not interested in all that was being said about what

21 people should do about it?

22 A. I have told you, I went through that. I experienced it all on my

23 back, on my head, on my spine, on my toes, from nails to the hair. I

24 have experienced it all and I know it only too well, and I simply do

25 not feel like talking about these things, not even at home, not even

Page 3568

1 with my son who often tells me, "Dad, does your back hurt?"

2 Q. I understand that. But what I ----

3 A. If you do understand it then why do you ask me that?

4 Q. I am sorry, but it is my job and my function is to ask you questions

5 about the evidence that you have given and to test its accuracy.

6 A. Right, you do your job, do it fairly and honestly.

7 Q. If you just would like a moment to collect yourself, please ----

8 A. No, it is all right. It is all right. I am all right. Just go on.

9 Q. Now, you said there was an occasion when you were on the pista and a

10 man was identified to you as being Dusko?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. First of all, can you tell me whereabouts on the pista you were at

13 that time?

14 A. You want me to show it to you?

15 Q. Yes, please, if you could stand up and use the pointer and just keep

16 it there for a few seconds so that we can see from over this side of

17 the court where you are pointing?

18 A. Just let me tell you there are no flower tubs here, to avoid any

19 confusion. I was standing, sitting right in the hollow. There was

20 one flower tub and another flower tub and I was here, almost next to

21 the flower tubs in that free space where one could go through and see

22 and back to the hangar.

23 Q. Thank you. I am just interested in one matter as to why you just

24 said to me, "Let me make one thing clear, that there are no flower

25 tubs here"?

Page 3569

1 A. The flower tubs were there, and that is why I wonder why you had not

2 put them here just to help us with orientation who come here to

3 testify.

4 Q. Have you spoken to another witness in this case about flower tubs on

5 the pista?

6 A. No, never about anything. If you wish I could approximately tell you

7 how many of them were both on the right and on the left side, and here

8 on this side there were also pillars, concrete ones built into the

9 concrete with chains, and if you think there were no flower tubs there

10 ----

11 Q. Are you staying in a place at the moment where a previous witness who

12 has given evidence in this case, a Mr. Mesic, is also staying?

13 A. I do not know that person.

14 Q. Have you had any discussion with any witnesses about the position of

15 flower tubs on the pista?

16 A. Sir, as regards flower tubs, even if you blindfolded me I could still

17 tell you every single fact about Omarska. Please understand that it

18 is a video tape which we have in our heads and which functions very

19 well. It simply can never be erased. I wish I could erase it so as to

20 sleep peacefully not to wake up three or four times every night.

21 Q. You told the Court that you were aware of the man called Dusko from

22 the sports pages of Kozarski Vjesnik, is that right?

23 A. Yes, quite.

24 Q. Is that because you saw -- excuse me, your Honour, I do not know

25 whether there is a problem. Your Honour will forgive me a moment

Page 3570

1 while I take instructions.

2 I was asking you about Kozarski Vjesnik and you said that you

3 were aware of the man called Dusko from the sports pages in that

4 paper, is that right?

5 A. Yes, from the sports pages.

6 Q. Were they newspaper articles or a photograph of the man in the

7 newspapers?

8 A. On such occasions when it is a question of some more prominent

9 sportsmen, there would always be a photograph accompanying an article,

10 when it came to better, to more prominent athletes.

11 Q. But are you telling us that you saw a photograph of the man who was

12 pointed out to you as Dusko ----

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. --- in Kozarski Vjesnik ----

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. --- in the sports pages?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Perhaps you could tell me if that was on more than one occasion?

19 A. Well, I noticed it on four, five occasions perhaps.

20 Q. Perhaps you could tell me what period of time this would have been

21 when these photographs were in Kozarski Vjesnik?

22 A. I could not remember that exactly. I could not really define the

23 time.

24 Q. Obviously before June 1992?

25 A. No, I cannot tell you. I cannot affirm with certainty anything what

Page 3571

1 was the season of the year.

2 Q. Well, shall we just try? I am not concerned with perhaps the season

3 of the year, but perhaps how long before you were imprisoned in

4 Omarska that you can recollect. Perhaps take the opportunity to think

5 about it before you answer whether it was soon before you had been in

6 Omarska or a few years before?

7 A. I cannot say that, to be more precise about that. Do you remember

8 what you read six or seven years ago?

9 Q. What you are clear about, however, is that there would have been a

10 photograph, perhaps published four times, and with that an indication

11 of the name of the person?

12 A. I have no doubt about that there was a photograph and there was an

13 article.

14 Q. When you were on the pista it was someone else called Hrnic who said

15 to you "That's Dusko"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. At that time you were where you indicated on the pista, were you

18 standing up or sitting down?

19 A. I was sitting down between two flower tubs and the passage was quite

20 clear. The flowers were not kept. It was very hot so that the stalks

21 were very short and flowers faded, perished completely.

22 Q. But if you were sitting between the flower tubs there would be no

23 particular problem with you over seeing through the flowers. So the

24 question of whether there are leaves on the flowers is irrelevant, do

25 you not agree?

Page 3572

1 A. I did not look through the flowers, but through that empty space that

2 was between two flower tubs. I did not look over the flowers or

3 through the flowers, but precisely between, through the empty space

4 which was between two flower tubs.

5 Q. Are you telling us about the fact of the flowers being without leaf

6 as a way of you trying to make this identification stick?

7 A. What do you mean? I saw with my own eyes and I am quite certain

8 about that.

9 Q. You no doubt in Omarska saw many things over those three months?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what you are telling us about now is an incident of no particular

12 interest to you at the time, nothing was happening?

13 A. What do you mean of any interest? What do you mean by that? Could

14 you be more specific, please?

15 Q. It is a man, as you say, coming out of the white house and walking

16 behind the white house?

17 A. He was moving in front of the white house from the left and turned

18 towards the back of the white house.

19 Q. Did he come out of the white house? That is what I understood you to

20 say earlier when you gave your evidence.

21 A. And went to the left, when coming out he turned left, and then once

22 again turned left behind the white house.

23 Q. And that is it? That is all that happened?

24 A. That is what I saw and I only noticed on the right side as he was

25 coming out in that area below the jacket, beneath the jacket, he had

Page 3573

1 something suspended. I could not see whether it is was a pistol or

2 something else. I could simply assume it was a pistol because

3 presumably he would not be carrying anything else on his right side.

4 Q. Would you agree with me that that was something that took only a few

5 moments?

6 A. Well, I would not say moments. Moments is when you close your eyes

7 and open them, and it went on for about a minute or two, two minutes.

8 Q. He surely did not take a minute or two to walk from the door of the

9 white house?

10 A. I think he did.

11 Q. Are you trying to be helpful about this matter, sir, because ----

12 A. Why not? I am telling the truth and nothing but the truth.

13 Q. But from what you describe would you not agree with me that it is

14 something that would only take a few seconds, five, six, seven seconds

15 to move out of the white house and then walk round the building,

16 around the back and that is you all describe?

17 A. In five or six seconds you cannot even run round the white house.

18 Let us be clear about that, five, six seconds, I will pay you the trip

19 and take you there and I will try to see you run around the white

20 house in five or six seconds. I lay my hat for that which I brought

21 back from Omarska. So do not ask me such provocative questions. What

22 can you do in three seconds? You cannot drink half a glass of water.

23 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is a convenient moment as it is 1 o'clock.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think it might be. We will stand in recess until

25 2.30.

Page 3574

1 (1.00 p.m.).

2 (Luncheon Adjournment)


4 (Luncheon Adjournment) PRIVATE

5 (2.30 p.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you like to continue?

7 MR. KAY: I am much obliged.

8 Witness R, were you also on the pista when a man called Kera

9 was killed by a guard?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you remember when that was?

12 A. I cannot remember the date, but it was in the month of July.

13 Q. Were you in the same place on the pista that you told us about

14 earlier this morning?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What happened to Kera? Can you describe what took place?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Perhaps you could tell us?

19 A. Yes. Mirsad Crnalic, nickname Kera, had been employed in the biscuit

20 factory, Mira Cikota. He had also been an inmate of the Omarska camp

21 like ourselves. On that day he behaved in a strange way. He made

22 strange gestures. We tried to calm him down, to make him sit down, to

23 be quiet, to keep quiet, just to calm him down because we had all

24 experienced the same thing. At one point he started taking off his

25 clothes and started pouring water over himself from a hose attached to

Page 3575

1 a hydrant located behind the hangar in a part which was used as a

2 parking lot. Sometimes he would put on the same clothes, sometimes he

3 would take them off. He poured water over his head. He had some

4 bread that he would not eat normally, so he tried to give the bread to

5 somebody else but nobody would have it.

6 At one point Mira Kvocka came out of the administration

7 building and he happened to be there while Mirso was making those

8 strange gestures and movements. At that point Miro Kvocka said to two

9 guards to take him to the white house and they did so.

10 Q. What happened to him at the white house?

11 A. At the white house he was placed in the first room as you enter the

12 white house on the left, a small room where there had been other

13 prisoners too who also looked horrible. After a short period of time

14 Mirsad opened the door and jumped out the window. Then we heard a

15 short burst of fire from a submachine gun. Then instinctively his

16 head -- we turned our head in the direction of the sound. I turned

17 and I saw Mirso lying down and the young man was holding the gun, his

18 gun at the ready. His name was Mladjo. There were pot marks from

19 bullets on the wall of the white house.

20 After a short period of time there was a command, sit down and

21 face, look down, and that was a very short period of time. I was

22 anxious to, to take it in, so I turned, I slowly turned my head to the

23 left under my armpit and I could see that two or three guards came up

24 to that area, at the most.

25 Q. So Kera, was he shot by Mlado (sic)?

Page 3576

1 A. Mladjo was his name, not Mlado, Mladen or Mlado, but Mladjo.

2 Q. Mladjo?

3 A. A younger man.

4 Q. Of the people at that scene that you were watching at the white

5 house, did you know anyone else other than Mladjo?

6 A. Yes. I cannot remember exactly all the people because there were

7 three shifts, Krkan's shift, Ckalja's shift and Krle's shift and the

8 worst of the three was Krkan's shift.

9 Q. But with Mladjo at the white house when the man Kera was shot, the

10 only name you can give us of someone who was present was Mladjo, is

11 that right?

12 A. No, I only saw that individual directly in the face as he trained his

13 rifle, others I could not see because they had their backs turned to

14 me and towards the pista.

15 Q. No-one else that you could recognise?

16 A. No.

17 MR. KAY: Thank you, no further questions.


19 Re-examined by MR. KEEGAN

20 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. R, first off, where approximately on the pista were you sitting?

22 If you could just stand up and point with the pointer again, please?

23 A. Yes. (The witness indicated on the model).

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you point to it and we need the camera to focus

25 where the witness is pointing, if you can, and keep the image

Page 3577

1 alteration.

2 A. (The witness indicated on the model).

3 MR. KEEGAN: OK. It is down a bit. For the record, that would appear to

4 be close to what is the edge of the building, the hangar building,

5 closest to the white house?

6 A. At most, two and a half metres from the hangar and one metre from

7 flower tub that was there.

8 Q. Thank you. If I could have this photograph -- I apologise it is not

9 on the computer but the technician is not here -- marked as the next

10 exhibit, please? It will be 246. Could you show it to the Defence

11 first, please, and the witness? Could you now place it on the elmo?

12 Mr. R ----

13 A. I would like the picture to be brighter, there are some shades,

14 shadows there.

15 Q. Yes, I apologise. I am not sure ----

16 A. I cannot see the face very clearly.

17 Q. OK. The question I have for you, sir, is looking at that photograph

18 and, in particular, what is referred to as the flower boxes there ---

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- does that picture provide an accurate representation of how the

21 flower boxes were lined up when you were present in Omarska camp?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Does it also represent, give an accurate representation of what the

24 flowers or the plants that were in those boxes liked like while you

25 were there in Omarska camp?

Page 3578

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is that behind where those people are who are in the photograph, is

3 that the general area where you were sitting towards the hangar?

4 A. Yes. Yes, exactly to the right a little bit from where these

5 individuals are.

6 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I would offer 246.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 246 will be admitted.

10 MR. KEEGAN: Mr. R, with respect to the incident involving the individual

11 who was identified to you as Dusko in Omarska camp, can you tell this

12 court why it is that you do remember that particular incident? What

13 was it about that identification which causes you to remember it?

14 A. It sticks in my mind because, as I have already said, the only page

15 of the newspaper that I followed was the sports page, and I connected

16 that immediately with the person I had -- I saw coming out of the

17 white house.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. KEEGAN: Nothing further, your Honour.

20 JUDGE STEPHEN: Before you leave that Exhibit, is that the white house

21 that we see in the far right-hand corner?

22 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour, it is.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, the corner and the window from which Mirso Kera

24 jumped and got killed. It is the left side of the right house.

25 MR. KEEGAN: For the record, your Honour, this is a still from the video

Page 3579

1 which has already been admitted into evidence. Thank you.


3 MR. KAY: No further questions, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to witness R being

5 permanently excused?

6 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Sir, you are permanently excused. You are

8 free to leave. Thank you for coming. You should remain seated and we

9 will leave the Court room for five or 10 minutes.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

11 (The witness withdrew)

12 (2.50 p.m.)

13 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

14 (3.00 p.m.)

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, are you going to call your next

16 witness?

17 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. Miss Hollis is going to lead the witness,

18 but prior to the witness being brought in, I would offer this as the

19 next Exhibit in order to be marked as 247. Copies have already been

20 provided to the Defence. Exhibit 247 is a two part diagram of the

21 Stari Grad area of Prijedor. I would tender that exhibit, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 247 will be admitted.

25 MR. KEEGAN: The Prosecution call Mr. Huskic to the stand.

Page 3580


2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Huskic, would you please take the oath that is

3 being presented to you?

4 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes. I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

6 (The witness was sworn)

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

9 Examined by MISS HOLLIS

10 MISS HOLLIS: Sir, would you please state your full name?

11 A. My name is Mehmedalija Huskic.

12 Q. What is your date of birth?

13 A. I was born on 15th October 1946.

14 Q. Where were you born?

15 A. I was born in the village of Huskici.

16 Q. Did you live in the village of Huskici until you were eight years old

17 and then moved to Kamicani?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How long did you live in Kamicani?

20 A. I lived there until 24th May 1992.

21 Q. What opstina are Huskici and Kamicani in?

22 A. This is the municipality of Prijedor.

23 Q. Did you ever serve in the JNA?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What years did you serve in the JNA?

Page 3581

1 A. I went to the JNA on 20th -- 28th August 1965.

2 Q. You served until what year?

3 A. I did my military service until 14th February 1967.

4 Q. What were your duties?

5 A. I was a truck driver.

6 Q. As a result of your service in the JNA did you become familiar with

7 JNA uniforms, equipment, vehicles and weapons?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If the witness could be provided with Defence Exhibit 13, please?

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Huskic, I am not sure the interpreters -- are

11 you hearing Mr. Huskic well enough?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we are, quite well.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, very good. Thank you.

14 MISS HOLLIS: Sir, if you could look at that Exhibit for a moment to

15 orient yourself? If that could be put on the overhead projector,

16 please? If you could zoom back out, please? Sir, if you could look

17 at that exhibit and if you could point to the village of Huskici where

18 you were born?

19 A. This is the village of Huskici.

20 Q. Could you point at that again, please? If you could point to the

21 area in Kamicani where you lived?

22 A. This is where I lived in Kamicani.

23 Q. This area of Kamicani, was there a larger area there that was also

24 known as Kamicani?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3582

1 Q. Thank you. Sir, I notice that you put on glasses to review that map.

2 How long have you worn glasses?

3 A. I started wearing glasses a year ago.

4 Q. Do you wear these glasses for reading only or for far vision as well?

5 A. For reading only.

6 Q. Mr. Huskic, how many people lived in this area of Kamicani where you

7 lived?

8 A. In the area of Kamicani there were about 1,000 households, maybe

9 about 4,000 people.

10 Q. Did you know many of the inhabitants of Kamicani?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If you know, what was the ethnic group of the inhabitants of

13 Kamicani?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was the ethnic group?

16 A. Over 95 per cent Muslim.

17 Q. How far was your home from the town of Prijedor?

18 A. My home was about 12 kilometres from Prijedor.

19 Q. How far was your home from the town of Kozarac?

20 A. One kilometre.

21 Q. Did you ever go into the town of Kozarac?

22 A. Of course, yes.

23 Q. How often would you go there?

24 A. Sometimes I used to go three or four days every day, sometimes I went

25 there twice weekly, sometimes once a week, depending on my needs.

Page 3583

1 Q. Why would you go into Kozarac?

2 A. I went there to buy groceries, for I had to buy cigarettes or matches

3 I went to Kozarac. I went to the PA meetings in my school, in my

4 children's school. I went to the marketplace there.

5 Q. When you visited Kozarac did you often visit the main business area

6 of Kozarac?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall the name of the main street in Kozarac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was that?

11 A. Marsala Tita Street.

12 Q. Were you familiar with the homes and businesses along that main

13 street in Kozarac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you know any of the inhabitants of Kozarac?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How did you know them?

18 A. With some of them I was good friends, others I had met on my way to

19 the marketplace and as I have sold things. There were various ways in

20 which I met these people -- in the cafe.

21 Q. Did you know Dule Tadic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How did you know Dule Tadic?

24 A. I met Dule in the street and we used to see each other in the

25 streets, in cafes, in bars, in restaurants, in various places.

Page 3584

1 Q. Do you know if Dule Tadic had any businesses in Kozarac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What business?

4 A. He had a cafe.

5 Q. Did you ever visit that cafe?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know where that cafe was located?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where was that?

10 A. It was on Marsala Tita Street.

11 Q. Do you know where on Marsala Tita?

12 A. As you enter Kozarac and walk along Marsala Tita Street, the cafe was

13 on the right-hand side.

14 Q. Did you know any other members of Dule Tadic's family?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who did you know?

17 A. I knew his father, his mother, his brothers.

18 Q. Do you recall their names?

19 A. Yes. Father's name was Ostoja, mother's name Staka, one brother was

20 Mladen, the other Ljubo. His wife was called Mira.

21 Q. How many years did you know Dule Tadic before the attack on Kozarac?

22 A. I knew Dule Tadic, I had known Dule Tadic at least 20 years.

23 Q. How often would you see him on an average in a month?

24 A. Well, sometimes I would see him five or six times, sometimes only

25 once, sometimes twice. It all depended on the situation.

Page 3585

1 Q. During the time that you knew him, you knew Dule Tadic as an adult,

2 did you ever see him with a beard?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you ever see him clean shaven?

5 A. Well, sometimes he was clean shaven, but he was more often with a

6 beard.

7 Q. Was there anything noticeable or characteristic about the way that

8 Dule Tadic walked?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was that?

11 A. Well, for instance, his arms would be like this, shoulders bent

12 forwards slightly, slightly bent back.

13 Q. Did he have his arms out?

14 A. Yes, like a duck one might say -- not very much, a little.

15 Q. Was Dule Tadic your age, younger or older?

16 A. Dule is younger.

17 Q. What was the ethnic group of Dule Tadic and his family?

18 A. Why, Dule is a Serb and so is his family.

19 Q. Were you aware of anyone in the area who looked very much like Dule

20 Tadic?

21 A. I did not know such individuals.

22 Q. Did you ever hear any other people talk about someone who looked very

23 much like Dule Tadic?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you recall the last time you saw Dule Tadic before the attack on

Page 3586

1 Kozarac on 24th May 1992?

2 A. Well, here and there, yes, I do.

3 Q. About how many days or weeks before the attack did you last see Dule

4 Tadic?

5 A. Well, it could have been some 10 days, more or less.

6 Q. On 24th May 1992 when Kozarac was shelled, were you at home with your

7 wife?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you hear the shelling from where you were?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Two days later on 26th May did you see neighbours fleeing from their

12 homes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did these neighbours tell you why they were leaving the area?

15 A. Yes, because the army was coming from Omarska setting houses on fire,

16 and they had to leave their homes.

17 Q. On that date did you flee your home with your wife, your aunt and

18 your son and go to the village of Besici?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is Besici part of a larger area that is referred to as Dera?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you remain in this area of Besici until the Friday after the

23 attack on Kozarac?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If we could again have Defence Exhibit 13 put on the elmo, please?

Page 3587

1 Sir, if you could point out for the Court where it was that you stayed

2 until Friday after the attack?

3 A. I stayed in this area here in Besici.

4 Q. During the time you were in Besici, was that area being shelled?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. While were you in Besici did you hear a radio announcement telling

7 all people to go to the Red Cross office in Trnopolje?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did the announcement say by whose authority this announcement was

10 being made?

11 A. The announcement came from Serb Radio Prijedor at the orders of

12 Prijedor SDS.

13 Q. What did the announcement tell you?

14 A. We were told to go to Trnopolje and to Prijedor, that nothing would

15 happen to us, that they would disarm those couple of alleged

16 extremists that were there and that we would continue to live as

17 before, that nothing would happen.

18 Q. On this Friday after the attack on Kozarac, that Friday morning, do

19 you recall seeing a tank on Marsala Tita Street in Kozarac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That afternoon did you see men in uniforms come to where you were

22 staying in Besici?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What type of uniforms were these men wearing?

25 A. There were camouflage uniforms and the uniforms of the Yugoslav

Page 3588

1 People's Army.

2 Q. Were these men armed?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you recognise any of them?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did these men in uniform tell you and others in the area to go into

7 Kozarac?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you and the group you were with eventually go to the gas station

10 on the new Prijedor/Banja Luka road?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How big was this group that was with you?

13 A. There were about 50 to 60 persons.

14 Q. What was the gender and the ages of the people in this group?

15 A. Well, they belonged to different age groups, from boys to adults, to

16 elderly. For instance, there was my aunt who was 85, 86.

17 Q. The ethnic group of these people was what?

18 A. Muslims, all of them.

19 Q. Were you met at the gas station by other men wearing uniforms?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At the gas station were women and children put on a bus and then

22 taken away?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That included your wife and your aunt?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3589

1 Q. Later then were you and other men put on a bus and taken away?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was your son taken with you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How old was your son at that time?

6 A. 17.

7 Q. These buses that this group was put on, were they civilian buses or

8 military buses?

9 A. Civilian buses.

10 Q. Do you recall the name of the bus company?

11 A. Auto Transport Prijedor.

12 Q. After you and the other men were put on these buses, were you taken

13 to a school in the Urije section of Prijedor?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you were driven there, were you driven along the new Banja

16 Luka/Prijedor road?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. As you were taken on this trip did you see any destruction along the

19 route?

20 A. Yes, all the houses, not all, but most of them were burnt down. Some

21 of them were destroyed by shells, but most of them had been burned

22 down.

23 Q. Was this the houses along the entire route or only along a portion of

24 that route?

25 A. All along the route from Kozarac toward Koncari.

Page 3590

1 Q. From Kozarac toward where?

2 A. To the village of Koncari.

3 Q. After that village, what was the condition of the buildings?

4 A. Normal, as before the war, before the beginning, before the shelling

5 began.

6 Q. To your knowledge, what was the ethnic group of the inhabitants who

7 lived along the route from Kozarac to Koncari?

8 A. 95/96 per cent were Muslims.

9 Q. To your knowledge, what was the ethnic group of the inhabitants of

10 the route from Koncari onward into Prijedor?

11 A. Well, say, perhaps not 100 per cent, but 98 to 99 per cent were

12 Serbs.

13 Q. When you were at the school in Urije were you eventually put on to

14 another bus and taken to Omarska camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you have any escorts on that bus?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How many escorts did you have?

19 A. One.

20 Q. What did this escort wear?

21 A. Camouflage uniform.

22 Q. Did you know this escort?

23 A. No.

24 Q. During this bus trip from Prijedor to Omarska camp, did this escort

25 beat the men on the bus?

Page 3591

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did the escort saying anything as he was beating the men on this bus?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What did the escort say?

5 A. Well, he cursed us, mentioning Balija mother, our Muslim mother, our

6 Alija and such like -- all sorts of abusive language he used and

7 swearing.

8 Q. Did you arrive at Omarska camp the same day you were taken from

9 Besici, the Friday after the attack on Kozarac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How long were you held at Omarska camp?

12 A. In Omarska I was until 6th August 1992.

13 Q. Did you know any of the guards at Omarska from before you were taken

14 to the camp?

15 A. I knew Krkan.

16 Q. How did you know him?

17 A. He was a policeman, an active duty policeman.

18 Q. If you know, what was his ethnic group?

19 A. Serb.

20 Q. While you were in Omarska did you learn the name of the Camp

21 Commander?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who was that?

24 A. Drago Meakic.

25 Q. The guards at Omarska, what did they wear?

Page 3592

1 A. Uniforms, you mean?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. They varied, some wearing camouflage uniforms, some had Yugoslav

4 People's Army uniforms, some had police uniforms and some were wearing

5 civilians clothes as well.

6 Q. What weapons did the guards at Omarska have?

7 A. Submachine guns, mostly, for the most part, and other rifles and

8 things like that.

9 Q. While you were at Omarska do you recall seeing a machine gun set up

10 at a position in the camp?

11 A. Yes, above the entrance to the restaurant there was a machine gun

12 positioned towards the pista.

13 Q. Did you know any of the other detainees at Omarska?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was the ethnic group of the detainees that you knew?

16 A. Why, they were Muslims for the most part. There were some Croats and

17 there were even some Ukrainians.

18 Q. On your arrival at the Omarska camp, do you recall hearing detainees

19 singing Serbian songs?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What were the songs that they were singing?

22 A. Well, the most frequent song was "Who says who lies that Serbia is

23 small", but there were also others.

24 Q. What happened to you when you arrived at Omarska?

25 A. When we arrived at Omarska, they opened the door of the bus and there

Page 3593

1 we got off, to the pista there, and two guards took me and a friend of

2 mine, Ferid Velic, and ordered us to box, the two of us. We hesitated

3 a little, of course, and one of the guards, the one who was behind me,

4 struck me with his rifle in the back and I realised I had to do it,

5 and I began to hit Ferid here around the shoulders, but he was still

6 hesitating. He was quite surprised, what do I know, but then he was

7 hit in the genitals as another guard had kicked him, and then he also

8 began dealing blows to me so that we exchanged several blows and

9 stopped. Then one of the guards told us to go on. The other one

10 said, "Oh, let them be, they are old enough", it was enough. Then we

11 entered a room.

12 Q. Where were you taken after you had to exchange blows with your

13 friend, Ferid?

14 A. I was taken to the small garage.

15 Q. If you could take that pointer, please, and point to the building in

16 which the small garage was located?

17 A. This is the building.

18 Q. What building was that?

19 A. This is the administrative building.

20 Q. Was your son also taken into the garage with you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How long were you held in this small garage room?

23 A. I was there until June 20th, approximately.

24 Q. Where were you taken after you were held in the small garage room?

25 A. I was taken to the hangar.

Page 3594

1 Q. Could you please take the pointer and touch the building you have

2 just referred to as the hangar?

3 A. This is the hangar.

4 Q. You are talking about the large, long building across from the

5 restaurant building?

6 A. Yes, this one here.

7 Q. The area between those two buildings, what was that area called?

8 A. This here was called pista.

9 Q. When you were taken to the hangar what room in the hangar were you

10 taken to?

11 A. I was taken to the last room down there, it was the electric

12 workshop.

13 Q. Was this on the ground floor or the first floor of the hangar

14 building?

15 A. The ground floor.

16 Q. If I could ask the bailiff at this time to please remove from the

17 administration building the roof and the first floor? If I could ask

18 the bailiff also to remove the roof and the first floor of the hangar

19 building? Thank you.

20 Mr. Huskic, what I would ask you to do now, please, after I

21 have explained what I would like you to do, if you would take off your

22 headphones, come around and put on the headphones with the long wire

23 that are on the desk in front of the model, and if you could then show

24 us, first, the room you referred to as the small garage room and tell

25 us the number that is inside that room? If you could please do that

Page 3595

1 now?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Sir, if you could go back by the microphone and tell us the number

4 that is in that room?

5 A. The garage is No. 1.

6 Q. Would you look again, please, at that room? Look again at the

7 number. Is there a letter in front of the number?

8 A. Yes, A1.

9 Q. Then, sir, if you could go to the hangar building and if you could

10 show us the room you referred to as the electrical workshop room?

11 Sir, is there a number in that room, if you could tell us what that

12 number is?

13 A. Yes, A17.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. If you could take off those headphones and resume

15 your seat? If you could take off those headphones and then resume

16 your seat? Sir, what were the conditions like in the garage, the

17 small garage room, while you were there?

18 A. The conditions were not normal.

19 Q. Tell us what you mean by that, please?

20 A. Well, to begin with, there were very many of us there in that

21 contained space.

22 Q. Do you have any idea how many people were in that room with you?

23 A. Between 140 to 160.

24 Q. What were the other conditions like in the room?

25 A. Well, for instance, we could not sit down, all of us. There was no

Page 3596

1 water. The floor was concrete and so on and so forth. It was also

2 hot, too hot.

3 Q. How hot was it in that room while you were there?

4 A. Well, on the ceiling, it was so hot that on the ceiling a kind of

5 fungi began to grow because of this and the paint began to peel off.

6 If you tried to put your hand against the wall, it simply slid down

7 because the paint had all melted because of the high temperature.

8 Q. You said that you were unable to get water. During the first day or

9 so that you were there, how much water did you receive?

10 A. The first day, we were given a litre and a half of water, a Coca Cola

11 bottle, a plastic Coca Cola bottle.

12 Q. That was for how many people?

13 A. Well, I told you 140 to 160 people. At that time there must have

14 been some 150 people.

15 Q. After that first day how much water would you receive on an average?

16 A. After that we were given a can, a three to five litre can, full of

17 water.

18 Q. Did you have to do anything in order to receive this water?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did you have to do?

21 A. We had to sing songs.

22 Q. What kind of songs?

23 A. Why, again "Who says who lies that Serbia is small" and "From Topola

24 to Ravna Gora" and such like.

25 Q. Did any men die while you were in the garage?

Page 3597

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you know any of the men who died?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who was that?

5 A. It was Armin Gavrilovic called Arko and Adem Beslagic.

6 Q. To your knowledge, what was the ethnic group of these men?

7 A. Muslim.

8 Q. While you were in this small garage room did you see a man there

9 named Dzemal Deomic?

10 A. Dzemal Deomic, yes.

11 Q. Did you know him from before the camp?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you saw him in this small garage room did he have any wounds or

14 injuries?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was that?

17 A. He had an injury on his back. His spine had been injured by a shell.

18 Q. How did you learn that?

19 A. Well, because it was so crowded I lent against Dzemal Deomic's back

20 and he almost screamed and said,"Well, mind what you are doing",

21 because I was, I heard and I apologised. I said I did not know he had

22 been wounded.

23 Q. Did he explain to you how he had been wounded?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you interrogated while you were at Omarska?

Page 3598

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In what building did these interrogations take place?

3 A. In the administrative building.

4 Q. Did the interrogations take place on the ground floor or on the first

5 floor of that building?

6 A. On the first floor of the administrative building.

7 Q. Who would escort you to the interrogations?

8 A. We were escorted for interrogation by guards, camp guards.

9 Q. Did you know any of the people who interrogated you?

10 A. Yes, one of them.

11 Q. Who was that?

12 A. Drago Meakic.

13 Q. How did you know him?

14 A. I met Drago as the Camp Commander.

15 Q. During these interrogations what did they ask you about?

16 A. They asked me various questions. For instance, whether I had a

17 rifle, who had a rifle among my neighbours; whether I knew Softic or

18 somebody called Fore or Foric; whether I used to go to the mosque;

19 whence the money to buy a tractor and things like that.

20 Q. Did you have any weapons before you were taken to the camp?

21 A. Yes, but not with me.

22 Q. What did you have, what kind of weapons?

23 A. I had a pistol.

24 Q. Why did you have that pistol?

25 A. I bought a pistol, I wrote an application to the police, I was given

Page 3599

1 a licence, and I bought that pistol because I had a small plot of land

2 and so it was a hobby of mine, so to speak.

3 Q. Did you ever use that pistol against any Serbs?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you tell your interrogators about this pistol?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. After telling them about this pistol, do you recall being taken from

8 the camp to your home to get that pistol?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who took you there?

11 A. Drago Meakic, Brk, Krle, and two more, I do not know who they were.

12 Q. Who were Brk and Krle?

13 A. They were guards in Omarska.

14 Q. What was the condition of your home and the other homes around it

15 when you arrived there?

16 A. The house of my neighbours, one of them was burnt and the other was

17 hit by a shell. My own house was intact, but it was looted,

18 thoroughly looted.

19 Q. Were there any people left in the area where you had lived?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you recall when it was that you were taken to your home?

22 A. It was about 20th June, thereabouts.

23 Q. After you were taken to your home to get the pistol, did you then

24 return to Omarska?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3600

1 Q. Were you then sent to the electrical workshop room?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then how long were you held in this electrical workshop room?

4 A. I stayed there until 4th August '92. Two days before we went to

5 Manjaca they took us out by the dump trucks.

6 MISS HOLLIS: At this time if I could have this photograph marked the next

7 in line which should be Prosecution Exhibit 248 for identification?

8 This is document 19-31. (To the witness): Sir, do you recognise the

9 area that is depicted in that photograph?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What area is that? If you could just tell us generally what that

12 area is?

13 A. This is the entrance door to the electric workshop where I stayed.

14 Q. If that photograph could please be put on the elmo? I understand that

15 the computer is not working so we will have to use the elmo.

16 A. This is the entrance door to the electric workshop where I stayed.

17 Q. Sir, you are pointing to the smaller brown door in the photograph?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is there a larger door that was also a door to that room?

20 A. Yes, this is the big door that I am showing, but they were never

21 opened.

22 Q. So there was a big door to the room but the door that you used to

23 enter into the room was the smaller brown door, is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. There appears to be a white door to the left of that small brown

Page 3601

1 door. Did that white door open into your room?

2 A. Yes, this is the door, but they did not open into that room. They

3 opened into a room where there were people who worked, who worked on

4 maintaining the camp, maintenance workers.

5 Q. There is some writing on that white door. Could you tell us what

6 that writing says?

7 A. It says "El" which is short for electrical workshop "Kop".

8 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, at this time I would tender Prosecution Exhibit

9 248 for identification.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to the admission of 248?

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 248 will be admitted.

13 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Mr. Huskic, while you were in Omarska camp,

14 did you ever see Dule Tadic there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How many times?

17 A. Once.

18 Q. Do you recall when that was?

19 A. It was the day when I was returned from home, I think it was 20th

20 June, when I was taken to get my pistol.

21 Q. Where were you when you saw him on that day?

22 A. I was in the electrical workshop.

23 Q. Where was Dule Tadic when you saw him that day?

24 A. Dule had come to the workshop.

25 Q. Did he actually come into the workshop room that you were in?

Page 3602

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What did he do in that room on that day?

3 A. Dule came in, came into the workshop. Someone said that we should

4 stand up and stand at attention. We did so, and stood by the door in

5 two lines. He passed us. He went to the end of the room. He came to

6 a wooden bench and sat down on it.

7 Q. What did he do then?

8 A. He sat down and stayed there for a while, and used gross language,

9 abused us verbally. Yes, he mentioned Alija's name in a very gross

10 context and insulted us. Then he stood up, walked up to us. He had a

11 pistol in his hand and started hitting us on the head with a pistol.

12 Roughly every second person he hit with the pistol.

13 Q. When he hit people with the pistol did he say anything to them?

14 A. Well, to some people he did say something, to others he did not.

15 Q. What did he say to some of the people?

16 A. He came up to Sarejlic and he told him he was a mother fucker and

17 then he said this to Sarejlic and then hit him with a pistol.

18 Q. What did he do after he went along the line hitting people with the

19 pistol?

20 A. He went to the door and left, and left the room.

21 MISS HOLLIS: At this time if this document could be marked Prosecution

22 Exhibit 249 for identification and after it is marked if it could be

23 shown to the Defence and then provided to the witness, please? (To

24 the witness): Mr. Huskic, is this a drawing of the layout of the

25 electrical workshop room that was drawn at your request and on your

Page 3603

1 instructions?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If that could be placed on the overhead projector, please? Sir, if

4 you could please point to the area that depicts the small brown door

5 you pointed out earlier in the photograph, Prosecution Exhibit 248?

6 A. (The witness indicated on photograph).

7 Q. Could you point to that again, please?

8 A. This is the door.

9 Q. I note that there are some things drawn inside the room. Could you

10 tell us what those things depict?

11 A. This is a wooden bench, this is a table, this is another table, this

12 is another wooden bench.

13 Q. When you saw Dule Tadic that day, what area of this room were you in?

14 A. About here.

15 Q. So you were toward the back wall of the room?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On that date were you standing facing into the room or facing the

18 wall?

19 A. Into the room.

20 Q. Were you standing against the wall or out from the wall?

21 A. A little distance from the wall.

22 Q. Was there another line of detainees standing in front of you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Standing in front of you?

25 A. I did not hear the question quite well.

Page 3604

1 Q. Was there another line of detainees standing in front of you or at

2 the back of you?

3 A. Another line was standing behind me.

4 Q. Would you please look at this drawing and put a "W" where you were

5 standing in that room on the day that you saw Dule Tadic?

6 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

7 Q. If you could please point to where Dule Tadic was when you first saw

8 him in that room and if you could please put a "T" at that spot where

9 you first saw him.

10 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

11 Q. When you first saw him in the room, how far away from you was Dule

12 Tadic?

13 A. About three or four metres.

14 Q. When you first saw him in the room, was anything or anyone

15 obstructing your view of him?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Where did he move to after that?

18 A. He went towards this wooden bench.

19 Q. If you could please draw a line with an arrow on the end to the

20 bench.

21 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

22 Q. You indicated earlier that he sat on the bench. Could you please put

23 a "T1" where he sat on the bench?

24 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

25 Q. As he sat on the bench cursing, how far away was Dule Tadic from you

Page 3605

1 in the room?

2 A. About two metres.

3 Q. Where did he move to then?

4 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

5 Q. Could you please draw a line with an arrow to that spot?

6 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

7 Q. Then in what direction did he move?

8 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

9 Q. Could you please draw a line with an arrow to the last point where

10 you saw Dule Tadic in that room?

11 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

12 Q. Did Dule Tadic hit you that day while he was in the room?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did he stop in front of you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you please put a "T2" where he stood in front of you when he

17 hit you?

18 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

19 Q. As he stood in front of you and hit you, how far away from you was

20 he?

21 A. About half a metre.

22 Q. Did you have a clear view of him?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Then would you please put a "T3" at the last position where you saw

25 Dule Tadic in the room that day?

Page 3606

1 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

2 Q. About how far away from you was that position?

3 A. About three metres.

4 Q. At this time I would tender Prosecution Exhibit 249 for

5 identification.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 249, to the admission of

7 249?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 249 will be admitted. We will stand in recess for

10 20 minutes.

11 (4.00 p.m.)

12 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

13 (4.20 p.m.)

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you like to continue, please?

15 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. Huskic, that

16 day in that room in the hangar building when Dule Tadic stood in front

17 of you and hit you, did he say anything to you?

18 A. Yes, he said, "You had a rifle, you had a rifle". Who ever he hit on

19 the head, he said that to him.

20 Q. He hit you on the head?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was Dule Tadic wearing that day?

23 A. He was wearing camouflage uniform.

24 Q. Other than the pistol that he had, did he have any other weapons?

25 A. I think he had a submachine gun on his back.

Page 3607

1 Q. Do you recall if he had a beard or was clean shaven on that date?

2 A. He had a small beard.

3 Q. When you say "a small beard", do you mean it appeared to be perhaps a

4 few days growth?

5 A. Yes, perhaps a week's growth.

6 Q. In total during this entire incident, how long did you look at Dule

7 Tadic?

8 A. About three minutes.

9 Q. On that date did you have any doubt in your mind that the man you saw

10 was the Dule Tadic you had known from Kozarac?

11 A. No, I did not have any doubt at all that it was Dule Tadic. I was

12 absolutely certain that it was Dule Tadic.

13 Q. Sir, would you look around the Court room and see if the Dule Tadic

14 from Kozarac who hit you that day at Omarska is in the courtroom?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please point to him and tell us what he is wearing?

17 A. Dule Tadic has a dark suit, a red tie.

18 Q. Where is he positioned in the courtroom?

19 A. He is sitting between two policemen.

20 Q. When Dule Tadic came to your room that day did he have anyone else

21 with him?

22 A. Yes, there was one man with him.

23 Q. Did you recognise that man?

24 A. No.

25 Q. The man with him, what was that man wearing?

Page 3608

1 A. He was also wearing a camouflage uniform.

2 Q. Did he have any weapons on him?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did that man speak to you or do anything to you?

5 A. Yes, I was standing. I did not have my shirt on, only a small

6 leather jacket. He said to me, "Why are you acting like a Tarzan

7 there?" and hit me with his rifle in this area.

8 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would ask that you please note that the

9 witness did make a correct identification of the accused.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will so reflect the identification

11 of the accused by the witness.

12 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. Huskic, where

13 were you taken to when you were taken from Omarska?

14 A. I was taken to Manjaca, to the Manjaca camp.

15 Q. How long were you held there?

16 A. I stayed there until 14th November 1992.

17 Q. Where were you taken to from there?

18 A. I came to Karlovac.

19 Q. Sir, after you left Bosnia were you eventually reunited with your

20 wife and your son?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Prior to the conflict, were you a member of any anti-Serb military or

23 paramilitary organisation?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you a member of any organised anti-Serb resistance?

Page 3609

1 A. No.

2 Q. After the beginning of the conflict, were you a member of any such

3 organisation?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Sir, if we could clarify one prior matter? If the witness could be

6 provided with Prosecution Exhibit 79, please? Sir, if you could take

7 a moment to orient yourself to that exhibit and find the area you

8 referred to as Koncari.

9 A. Koncari is about here.

10 Q. Sir, if that could be placed on the overhead projector, please? If

11 you could please show the Court the area you meant by Koncari?

12 A. (The witness indicated on the map) About this area.

13 Q. Could you please leave the pointer on the new road about the area

14 where Koncari would be?

15 A. (The witness indicated on the map).

16 Q. Sir, if you would go up to the new road between Kozarac and Prijedor?

17 A. I think this is the area.

18 Q. Sir, are you pointing to the area on the map that is just below the

19 word "Drljaca"?

20 A. Yes.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just one minute, I am trying to -----

22 MISS HOLLIS: If we could keep the map just as it is, please?

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think I have found it. It had to do with the

24 witness's testimony about his travelling.

25 MISS HOLLIS: That is correct.

Page 3610

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: A certain area was all demolished and the rest was

2 not, one was Serb and one was Muslim ---

3 MISS HOLLIS: That is correct, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- and I am confused. That is what you are going to

5 clarify?

6 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, but let me follow you. I cannot find where he

8 is.

9 MISS HOLLIS: Could you zoom in on that area again, please, and hold it

10 zoomed in?

11 JUDGE VOHRAH: Is this "KN" -----

12 MISS HOLLIS: Right there, please. Hold that.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, I think it is "DRL".

14 MISS HOLLIS: Hold it right there, please. (To the witness): Sir, would

15 you please point to the area again and keep the pointer on the area

16 that you talked about as Koncari? So that is near the area on the map

17 that is marked D-R-L-J-A-C-A, is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, was it your testimony earlier that on the trip from Kozarac to

20 Koncari that portion of the route was where you saw the destruction?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That after that point the buildings appeared normal, in normal

23 condition?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was it your earlier testimony that from Kozarac to Koncari your

Page 3611

1 understanding of that area was that it was predominantly a Muslim

2 area?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That the area after that into Prijedor was predominantly a Serb area?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE STEPHEN: While we are looking at the map, can I ask a slightly

7 related question? This gentleman, Mr. Huskic, comes from Huskici, am

8 I right? We find that repeated in the case of other names. Besic,

9 for instance, they come from Besici. Does that mean that most

10 inhabitants of Huskici would be called Huskic? Is it the possessive?

11 I take it the "ici", the "i" at the end is the possessive, is that

12 correct?

13 MISS HOLLIS: Let me ask, sir. (To the witness): Mr. Huskic, the village

14 from which you come is called Huskici, you have testified?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did most or all of the inhabitants of that village have the last name

17 of Huskic?

18 A. Well, about half of the village was called "Huskic" and the other

19 half were "Colic".

20 Q. Sir, if you know, why was the village named "Huskici"? What does that

21 mean?

22 A. Well, for instance, I have heard from elders that two brothers

23 arrived in a village, one was called Huska and another one was called

24 Cola, so the village is called Huskici, but half of them were Huskici

25 and the other half were Colici, but that small village was called

Page 3612

1 Huskici.

2 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I am not sure that has answered your question.

3 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

4 MISS HOLLIS: I have no further questions of the witness.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any cross-examination?

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff?

8 Cross-examined by MR. WLADIMIROFF

9 Q. Mr. Huskic, in your evidence you told the Court that in that

10 electrical or electric workshop, that room, there were about 140 up to

11 160 people, is that right?

12 A. No, I did not say that. I said that in reference to the small garage

13 where I was.

14 Q. Right. So how many people were then in that room?

15 A. About 200, 220 or so -- it varied.

16 Q. Could you tell the Court about the measurements of that room?

17 A. Well, it was approximately 12 metres long, six to seven metres wide.

18 Q. You also testified that not all of you could sit down. It was rather

19 crowded, was it not?

20 A. You, sir, are confusing the questions. I am talking about the small

21 garage where one could not sit down and now you are referring to the

22 electrical workshop.

23 Q. Again then was the electrical workshop crowded?

24 A. No, not as much as the small garage.

25 Q. Could each of you sit down or sleep on the ground?

Page 3613

1 A. Yes, in the electrical workshop, yes, we could all sit down.

2 Q. Could each of you sleep on the ground?

3 A. Well, mostly yes -- well, I could not, some five or six of us could

4 not sleep.

5 Q. Did each of you have a special place you were always sitting or lying

6 or standing on the same position, the same place, in that room?

7 A. Well, yes, one could say that.

8 Q. So, I take it that you know who were sitting, standing or lying on

9 the ground near to you, around you, directly around you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you give us names of those who were near to you?

12 A. There were Kemal Jaskic, Menkovic. There were other guys too. I

13 know some first names, some family names. There was Kemo, I believe

14 he was Mujkanovic, Iso Zenkovic, that was another's name and so on,

15 Paraputic, Jakupovic.

16 Q. Which Jakupovic?

17 A. Midhat Jakupovic -- Midhat Jakupovic.

18 Q. Any other names?

19 A. Kemal Jaskic.

20 Q. All these people were present when, according to your evidence, Dusko

21 Tadic entered that room?

22 A. I think so.

23 Q. So, I take it that all these people had seen the same incident?

24 A. I came to that workshop. When I came there, I entered and went to

25 the bottom of that workshop looking for space, for some space. So I

Page 3614

1 reached the end and there was no room for me, and at that moment

2 somebody entered and told us to stand to attention, and Dule came in

3 and then things happened that I told about, and then I went back to

4 the door after that, and that is where I stayed all the time and

5 Kemal Jaskic, Jakupovic were there and others.

6 Q. So all the people you mentioned names of today were there when the

7 incident occurred, is that right?

8 A. They were -- those people whose names I mentioned were by the door,

9 and this happened at the other end of the room. That was where I saw

10 Dule Tadic. Omer Mahmuljin, Nadim Mahmuljin were there, Hamdija Hodic

11 and others.

12 Q. Right. Did Dusko Tadic openly go into the room? Did he not disguise

13 himself?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So he went openly into the room, did he not?

16 A. Yes, he openly entered the room, normally without anything.

17 Q. Was anyone ordered to look at the ground?

18 A. No, I did not hear such orders.

19 Q. Am I right when I say that others were ordered to leave the room and

20 those orders came from Kozarusa?

21 A. I did not hear where they came from.

22 Q. How many people were ordered to leave the room?

23 A. He said that people from the village of Mujkanovici should come out.

24 How many were there of them, I do not know.

25 Q. Who gave that order?

Page 3615

1 A. Dule Tadic.

2 Q. Was there any reason known to you why he gave that order?

3 A. I do not remember if a reason was given.

4 Q. Dusko Tadic came into the room, according to your evidence, openly,

5 without any disguise. You told us that he had a small beard, did you

6 not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In your statement, however, you gave on June last year, 2nd and 8th

9 June last year, you thought, however, that Dusko Tadic was clean

10 shaven. Do you remember that statement?

11 A. I do not remember giving a statement on 2nd or 8th June ---

12 Q. 7th June?

13 A. -- last year. Last year, no, no. It was one year before that.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Perhaps, your Honour, I show to the witness a statement

15 in his own language?


17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have only one copy because I did not anticipate it.

18 Could you show it to the Prosecution too, please?

19 (To the witness): Mr. Huskic, would you please look to the front page?

20 Is that your name there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is on the bottom of that page your signature?

23 A. I do not see my signature.

24 Q. Right. Then I will give you the English version. Mr. Bos or Mr.

25 Usher, could you please show it to the witness? On the bottom of that

Page 3616

1 page do you see your own signature?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Right. Now could you please look again to your statement in your own

4 language? Could you read the date of the interview for the Court on

5 the first page, on the top page? I am not asking you to read your own

6 statement. I am just asking you to look at the top page and to look

7 at the middle, just below the middle, part of that top page and you

8 will see a date of your interview. Could you read that date, please?

9 JUDGE STEPHEN: The witness is not looking at the first page.

10 THE WITNESS: I cannot find it.

11 JUDGE STEPHEN: The witness is not looking at the first page.

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I cannot see it.

13 JUDGE STEPHEN: No, I can.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I see. Would you please look at the last page in your

15 left hand as I see it, or perhaps Mr. Usher, could you pass the top

16 page to the witness, please? Show him which is the top page.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Huskic, we would like to determine the date on

18 the statement that you gave. You can look at the one in your language

19 or look at the English version and see if you can locate a date on

20 either of those statements that would indicate to you the date when it

21 was given. Thank you, Mr. Usher. Can you locate a date on the

22 statement?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What is it?

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: What does it say?

Page 3617

1 A. 7th August, then 6, 1995, but I do not think that was the date. As a

2 matter of fact, the year is wrong but it is possible.

3 Q. Are you sure it says August?

4 A. 8, there is 7, 8 then 6. I do not know what that means.

5 Q. Does it read "7 8" and then "6 1995"?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Right. Thank you. From this statement, as you have read the top

8 page now, it seems that you had the interview in June 1995, apparently

9 on 7th or on 8th or both days, do you remember that interview?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. During that interview you told that the man who came into that room

12 was clean shaven, today you told the Court that he had a beard.

13 A. The question was, if Dusko Tadic always had a beard or sometimes was

14 bearded and sometimes clean shaven, and I said that he was clean

15 shaven sometimes and at that time he wore a beard. There must have

16 been some misunderstanding with the interpretation.

17 Q. Well, as a matter of fact, you gave evidence today talking about

18 Dusko Tadic in that room that he had, I quote, "a small beard"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So what is it then, did he have a beard or did he not?

21 A. That day when I saw him at Omarska he had a short growth, a small

22 beard.

23 Q. Today you also witnessed that Dusko Tadic entered that room with one

24 other soldier. Do you remember that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3618

1 Q. In your statement, that interview you gave last year, you told that,

2 "Dusko Tadic came to our room together with two or three soldiers".

3 A. I did not say that.

4 Q. Well, sir, once again on the bottom of that statement is your

5 signature.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So what is it then, did Dusko Tadic enter that room at all or did he

8 not? If he did, with one or with two or three soldiers?

9 A. Dule entered that room with one soldier. In that part of the room

10 when he came he was with one soldier. Whether further down the room

11 there were others, I could not see. I showed you how far I could see

12 in that room. That other part of the room down to, down the room, I

13 could not see.

14 Q. You also witnessed today that Dusko Tadic while he was in the room

15 had a machine gun on his back. Do you remember that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell the Court how Dusko Tadic managed to sit on that bench

18 you described while the machine gun was on his back?

19 A. Simply he had it over the back. It is a short rifle, so it was all

20 right.

21 Q. Mr. Huskic, I want to go back to the first questions that were asked

22 you by the Prosecution dealing with where you lived. You gave evidence

23 that you sometimes visited Kozarac. You do remember that?

24 A. I did not say that I visited Kozarac sometimes. I went there

25 regularly. Sometimes I would go day after day after day for three or

Page 3619

1 four days in a row, and sometimes I would be there once a week or so.

2 Q. In your evidence you said, "I sometimes visited Kozarac three or four

3 times or twice a week". Do you remember that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Later on you testified that you would see Dusko Tadic five or six

6 times a day, do you remember that?

7 A. No, I did not say five or six times a day. Sometimes I would see him

8 two or three times, today once and then tomorrow, another time and

9 then the day after tomorrow. For two or three days, sometimes I would

10 see him every one of those days and sometimes it would be once or

11 whatever times a week. It varied.

12 Q. Mr. Usher, could we have Defence Exhibit No. 12, please, on the elmo?

13 There it is. A little bit more, larger, that is what I am asking

14 for, a larger focus, please? That will do. Mr. Huskic, could you

15 look at your screen? Do you recognise what you see there?

16 A. This is Kozarac.

17 Q. Right. Do look and familiarise yourself with what you see. Do you

18 recognise the Marsala Tita Street?

19 A. (The witness indicated on the map).

20 Q. Thank you. Are you able to point out on the elmo where the cafe of

21 Dusko Tadic was?

22 A. (The witness indicated on the map) Roughly here.

23 Q. Can you show on the map where the house of Dusko Tadic was?

24 A. (The witness indicated on the map).

25 Q. Would you point out again? Would you keep it on the place where you

Page 3620

1 think it is.

2 A. There was Dusko's house.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Huskic, you also gave evidence that you saw Dusko

4 Tadic about 10 days before the attack. Do you remember that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where did you see him?

7 A. I saw him in Kozarac.

8 Q. Where in Kozarac?

9 A. Somewhere around the restaurant, somewhere there.

10 Q. Could you point to that on the map, please?

11 A. (The witness indicated on the map).

12 Q. Do you remember the name of that restaurant?

13 A. We called it "restaurant". It was a Prijedor company. It was a

14 restaurant company. We called it -- everybody called it "restaurant".

15 Q. Thank you. After you came out of the camps, you left the area, did

16 you not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In the country where you live now did you follow what happens in the

19 area after that?

20 A. Practically, no, I cannot watch that.

21 Q. Did you follow what happened to prosecute those who were indicted as

22 a war criminal?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you read about that?

25 A. No.

Page 3621

1 Q. Have you seen on television or in newspapers or magazines stories or

2 images of Dusko Tadic?

3 A. When I watch television I usually watch entertainment programmes. I

4 cannot watch political programmes. I cannot watch movies with

5 violence in them. I cannot read newspapers writing about war reports

6 in Bosnia because that reminds me of my suffering and my ordeal and I

7 do not follow such news.

8 Q. Do you usually look to news reels?

9 A. No, mostly not.

10 Q. Have you seen films about the camps?

11 A. No, I do not need to see films because I experienced it myself.

12 Q. Mr. Huskic, you gave evidence that you were interrogated by a man

13 called Meakic, did you not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember his first name?

16 A. Drago Meakic.

17 Q. In your statement during the interview last year, you told you were

18 interrogated by Meakic Zeljko, do you remember that?

19 A. Excuse me, Drago Meakic is the uncle of Zeljko Meakic and that is

20 where the confusion came from.

21 Q. So who is confused?

22 A. There was confusion. Drago Meakic is the uncle of Zeljko Meakic. I

23 had Zeljko in mind and I said Drago. I made a mistake.

24 Q. So in your interview you were right by saying Zeljko?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3622

1 Q. Today you made a mistake, did you not?

2 A. I was interrogated by Zeljko Meakic. It is possible that I said

3 Drago. It could have been a slip.

4 Q. How did you know that Meakic was Zeljko Meakic? You did not know

5 while he interrogated you?

6 A. Zeljko came to the door of the room where I was and introduced

7 himself as Zeljko Meakic, that he was Commander of the camp, that one

8 inmate from that room had bought a pack of cigarettes from a guard and

9 he wanted it back. He did not want any black marketeering. He

10 introduced himself as Zeljko Meakic and as Commander of the camp.

11 Q. Last year, however, you told during your interview that you were

12 interrogated by three men and you later learned that one of them was

13 Meakic Zeljko, do you remember that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You then told you later learned that one of them was Meakic Zeljko

16 "because I recognised him on TV", do you remember that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you speak the truth last year?

19 A. I think so. There must have been a mistake, a translation mistake.

20 Q. Are you seriously saying here there is a translation mistake when you

21 said that you later learned Zeljko Meakic because you recognised him

22 on TV? How could such a mistake occur?

23 A. I do not know. I did not do the translation. I do not know. I do

24 not know how it came about.

25 Q. Sir, I put to you that you did see, indeed, TV on what happened in

Page 3623

1 those camps. I suggest to you that, indeed, on that TV you recognised

2 the person that interrogated you as Meakic Zeljko, did you not?

3 A. No, Zeljko Meakic took me home in his car for me to get my pistol and

4 I had a good look at him at the time.

5 Q. In your statement you told that you were interrogated once, and then

6 three days later you were called out again and only on that occasion

7 you told you were interrogated by Meakic, do you remember that?

8 A. Yes, Zeljko was on his own at the time.

9 Q. Now, are you interested in sports?

10 A. Now not.

11 Q. Before, let us say, the war in 1992?

12 A. A long time ago I was interested in the '80s, yes.

13 Q. Did you read the Kozarski Vjesnik?

14 A. Not lately.

15 Q. In those days, I mean before May 1992?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You did not. Have you ever seen a photograph, a picture of Dusko

18 Tadic in any newspaper before May 1992?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Before you gave evidence today were you told how the courtroom would

21 look like? Were you shown a map of the courtroom?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you told where all the parties were placed, that is where the

24 Defence is sitting, where the Prosecution is sitting and where the

25 Judges are sitting?

Page 3624

1 A. No, I was not told where the parties would sit. Only a map was shown

2 to me.

3 Q. Could you read it on the map, because the names were put on that map,

4 for example, sudija at the place where the Judges sit?

5 A. I did not understand the question.

6 Q. Was the map marked with, for example, at the bench in front of you,

7 "sudija", that means Judges?

8 A. I did not see the map. I only saw this model. I did not see any

9 map. I just saw this model. No map was shown to me, only these

10 facilities at Omarska. There was no map that was shown to me.

11 Q. So you were shown in the courtroom itself and shown that model?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you expect a defendant to sit on the side of the Prosecution?

14 A. I know nothing about where different parties sit. I was not told

15 anything about this.

16 Q. Thank you. I have one question, however, your Honour, I forgot. If

17 I may proceed?


19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Do you know a man called Miso Danicic?

20 A. No.

21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, do you have any redirect?

23 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

24 Re-Examined by Miss Hollis.

25 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I had asked Miss Sutherland to arrange a

Page 3625

1 Prosecution Exhibit made ready in the video room, since the Defence

2 has called into question this witness's familiarity with Kozarac and

3 the business area. I would ask that ----


5 MISS HOLLIS: 195, I believe, your Honour, which is the video which shows

6 the business street section of Kozarac.


8 MISS HOLLIS: If that is available I would ask that it be played and, Mr.

9 Huskic, as it is played I would ask that you identify for the Court

10 the various buildings and structures that are shown on that video.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that ready? While it is getting ready, just for

12 the record, the statement that was marked for identification purposes

13 by the Defence, the statement of the witness in his language is

14 Defence Exhibit 20 and then the English version of that statement

15 which is signed by the witness is Exhibit 20A. Is it ready? Yes.

16 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Huskic, they are going to show a video. If you could

17 please identify any buildings or structures you recognise as they show

18 this video, please. If you could play that now, please.

19 (The video was played).

20 Is the witness's console on the appropriate channel?

21 A. Yes. This is the cake shop, the pastry shop, Hasim Pirisic, the

22 pastry shop, the house of Meho Menkovic, of Rejip Kusuran, Brgrad

23 Kolasic. This is the bakery. This is the restaurant. This is the

24 house of Salih Pirca. This is the cafe and the house of Dule Tadic.

25 This is the house of Suljia Mujagic, Fuad Jakupovic. This is the

Page 3626

1 house of Idriz Kusuran, of Edham Hodic, the brothers Hodic. These

2 are houses of the Mujagic family, Idriz Mujagic. This is the house of

3 Meho Memic. Ismed Fazlic's house, Delje and Emima Redzic's house. The

4 fire Brigade hall. The police station. The cafe called Neira. The

5 post office. The cinema. This is the textile shop. The house of

6 Delvic Taric and his father. The old post office. The Garden, a

7 restaurant called Garden, pasta or garden. This is a grocery store, a

8 grocery shop. This is a house owned by the Islamic heritage Vakuf.

9 This is a cemetery where my mother was buried and two of my uncles.

10 This is the Mutnicka mosque with its surrounding cemetery. These are

11 also some graveyards. This is the old school. There is a well in

12 front of the school. The road along Kalate. There used to be two

13 kiosks there. This is the Local Commune office. This is a shop that

14 we used to call a hardware shop. There were flats here. This is a

15 shoe factory Mlesna. These are just flats mostly occupied by

16 teachers. Here there was a bank and some shops and there were flats,

17 residential flats, upstairs. The Kahrimanovic house. This is a shop

18 called Agina Trgovina. This is the house of Meho Memic and his sons.

19 The Mehinic house. The Hase Vuk's house. There was a cafe called

20 Oasis there. House of Muto Dihnic. The house of Hamdija Hodic.

21 This was a residential building. This was a barbers shop here. This

22 was a pharmacy and a textile shop and flats above it. This is the

23 school called Rade Kondic. This is the house of Resad Kulenovic and

24 Meho Kulenovic. This is the old road to Prijedor. This is the old

25 hospital. The house of Bozo Dragicevic.

Page 3627

1 Q. Thank you. That will be enough. Thank you. Mr. Huskic, do you

2 understand the significance of the oath that you took today? Mr.

3 Huskic, do you understand the significance of the oath that you took

4 today?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you understand the importance of telling the truth and only the

7 truth as you remember it to these Judges?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you telling the truth when you testified that in the electrical

10 repair room in Omarska you saw Dule Tadic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was that the Dule Tadic you had known for 20 years?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you telling the truth to this court when you explained to them

15 your understanding of why there may have been confusion about Drago

16 Meakic and Zeljko Meakic?

17 A. Would you please repeat the question.

18 Q. Yes. Were you telling the truth to this Court when you explained to

19 them why there may have been confusion about the name Drago Meakic and

20 Zeljko Meakic?

21 A. Yes, because I knew both of them and that is how it happened, that I

22 confused them.

23 Q. When you were in that electrical workshop room and you saw Dule

24 Tadic, were there any people in front of you blocking your view of

25 him?

Page 3628

1 A. No, there was no one in front of me.

2 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that the man you saw that day was the

3 man you had known for 20 years from Kozarac?

4 A. No, there is no doubt whatsoever.

5 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have additional cross?

7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour.

8 Further Cross-examined by Mr. Wladimiroff.

9 Q. Mr. Huskic, as a matter of fact, when you gave evidence you did not

10 say Dule Tadic but Tadic or Dusko Tadic, did you not?

11 A. Dusan Tadic called Dule, everybody in Kozarac knew him as Dule Tadic.

12 Whether you say Dusan or Dule we always knew who people were

13 referring to.

14 Q. Thank you. Beside the incident you just testified about today, did

15 you witness any other incident while you were in Omarska?

16 A. What kind of incident do you have in mind?

17 Q. That someone hit other detainees.

18 A. Yes, I was hit by Kvocka, a guard whose last name was Kvocka.

19 Q. Did you witness any other incident where people were hit or killed?

20 A. As we were coming back from lunch and entering through this door that

21 I pointed out, a guard was standing there. He was dressed in a JNA

22 uniform and he had a police baton and he would be standing at the door

23 and hitting everybody on the back. This is how my wife beats the

24 carpets, the rugs. So, maybe of the 30 of us only two might miss the

25 beatings. But it did not happen every day, but there were many days

Page 3629

1 when it did happen on the way out of the restaurant, the canteen.

2 There was a policeman in police uniform and he kept hitting us in this

3 area with his baton, and when we went to lunch or once to the toilet

4 if you did not, if you were not beaten it was like hitting the

5 jackpot.

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you. No further questions, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, do you have additional re-re-direct?

8 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to this witness being

10 permanently excused?

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Mr. Huskic, you are permanently excused.

13 That means that you are free to leave. We thank you for coming today.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

15 (The witness withdrew).

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let me bring counsel up-to-date regarding other

17 matters that we will be hearing once again because of the limitations

18 that we have on courtroom space. On Tuesday July 23rd we will begin

19 receiving evidence in this case at 10.30 or 11 o'clock because we will

20 have another matters that we will consider at 9.30 a.m. On Wednesday

21 July 24th we will probably conclude the receipt of evidence at 5 p.m.

22 rather than 5.30,

23 because we have another matter we need to begin at 5.30 in this

24 court. Then on Friday, August 2nd we will not hear this matter at all

25 that day, since we have several other motions or several motions to

Page 3630

1 consider in another case. I will remind you again about those dates

2 probably on Friday, but keep that in mind as you plan your testimony.

3 We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

4 (5.26 p.m.).

5 (The court adjourned until the following day)