Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3856




4 Tuesday, 23rd July 1996

5 (11.05 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you continue, please, with the

7 witness?

8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. The witness is Senad Muslimovic

9 whose direct evidence is continuing.


11 Examined by MR. TIEGER, continued.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated, Mr. Muslimovic. You are still

13 under oath, sir. Mr. Tieger, you may continue.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Muslimovic, when we adjourned on

15 Friday you were describing the second beating you suffered involving

16 the man whose photograph you selected. You had reached the point, I

17 believe, of describing how while on the floor of the hangar building

18 you had been held standing against a demper tyre while the group

19 practised blows, mostly kicks, on you. Did the attack continue until

20 you lost consciousness?

21 A. [In translation]: Yes.

22 Q. When you were again aware of where you were, what position were you

23 in?

24 A. On my knees.

25 Q. Were you being beating at that moment?

Page 3857

1 A. Not much, but there was a blow here and there.

2 Q. As you were on the floor of the hangar in that position, what

3 happened?

4 A. I was kneeling. My arms were forward and somebody held my head.

5 Q. You made a gesture with your arm pulling it back. Was your head

6 pulled back?

7 A. I did not understand the question.

8 Q. I was just referring to the gesture you made with your hand as you

9 described what happened. Did that indicate that your head or hair was

10 grabbed and your head pulled back?

11 A. Of course it is true.

12 Q. What happened then?

13 A. Nothing. The person who was holding my head also held a knife at my

14 throat.

15 Q. Who was the person who was holding your head and holding a knife to

16 your throat?

17 A. The person I recognised in the picture.

18 Q. At that moment were you essentially waiting for your throat to be

19 cut?

20 A. Sure, what else could I expect?

21 Q. What happened at that point?

22 A. Nothing. I had a man standing in front of me, "Don't, leave him for

23 the end", but, nevertheless, I felt on my throat a burn. I guess he

24 must have passed with a knife over my throat. I did not know at that

25 moment whether I had been cut or not, and immediately after that I

Page 3858

1 felt that somebody grabbed my ear and the same feeling as on the

2 throat I had at that moment too.

3 Q. Was the man who was holding your ear the same man who had held the

4 knife to your throat?

5 A. The same.

6 Q. Did he say anything as he held your ear?

7 A. Well, when this, I do not know what to call him, the man with the

8 white belt, he said, "Well, I have at least to cut off his ear".

9 Q. Who said that?

10 A. The man holding me, the man who passed his knife against, across my

11 throat and the one who grabbed my ear.

12 Q. OK, and he said that "I have to at least cut off his ear" to the man

13 in the white belt?

14 A. To another man and to me, surely.

15 Q. What happened then?

16 A. The same. I felt that sting on my ear and immediately after that I

17 felt a stab in my left shoulder and I felt terrible pain, and it was

18 something like when somebody exercised pressure and starts twirling

19 something, but it did not last long. Then another stab, I did not

20 know what was happening, but I felt pain.

21 Q. Just to clarify, when the knife was drawn across your throat and

22 across your ear, were those parts of your body actually cut?

23 A. I did not understand.

24 Q. Sure. You described how there was a feeling of the knife coming

25 across your throat and also a similar feeling against your ear. With

Page 3859

1 whatever portion of the knife was drawn against your throat and ear,

2 did it actually cut your throat, that portion of your throat or ear?

3 A. Later on I realised that he did not, but it was a burning feeling on

4 my throat, and this pressure of the knife against my throat must have

5 been stronger and that is why I felt that.

6 Q. However, was your shoulder actually stabbed twice?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. After you were stabbed twice by the man whose picture you selected,

9 what happened next?

10 A. Well, beating, regular beating, I received a blow in the back which

11 was somewhat stronger so I staggered forward and then this was

12 followed by a series of blows from all sides.

13 Q. Did those blows continue until you again lost consciousness?

14 A. Of course.

15 Q. What did you next experience as you began to regain your

16 consciousness?

17 A. I felt my legs in the air being lifted. I thought that it was simply

18 because I was unconscious that that is what happened, but shortly

19 after that.

20 Q. As your awareness of where you were improved, did you realise that

21 you were actually hanging in the air upside-down by your feet?

22 A. Of course.

23 Q. Approximately, how far off the ground were you?

24 A. Well, my hands were -- I could still touch the floor. I do not know

25 how high but my hands could still touch the ground.

Page 3860

1 Q. Do you know what you were hanging from?

2 A. I would not know exactly.

3 Q. What happened while you were hanging in that position?

4 A. Again a series of blows ensued from the left and from the right with

5 feet, with batons, until I fainted.

6 Q. When you were next aware of where you were, what position were you

7 in?

8 A. I was lying down on the ground.

9 Q. Were you being beaten at that point?

10 A. Not at that moment.

11 Q. As you lay there on the ground, what were you able to see?

12 A. I saw a person who had dragged a young man whom I knew from sight.

13 We were not acquaintances. He was also beaten and hit from the left

14 and from the right, cutting him.

15 Q. Were any words being spoken while he was being cut and attacked?

16 A. The first words I heard, the first words, when he appeared within my

17 vision was, "Jasko, what are you doing in Benkovac?" and I heard the

18 same person, "I do not know, I have done nothing, Dule, cross my

19 heart, I know nothing".

20 Q. Was the person who had been addressed as "Jasko" when he was cut was

21 he stabbed or cut in a different fashion?

22 A. I did not see him stabbed. He was being cut, sliced as if once one

23 slices chops.

24 Q. Did you see who was cutting him in that way?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3861

1 Q. Who was that?

2 A. The same person who did it to me.

3 Q. The man whose picture you selected?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. After the man had been cut, as you indicated, did you see anything

6 else happen to him?

7 A. Some black liquid was poured over him, I do not know what it could

8 be, it looked black to me -- probably oil, but I could not establish

9 that.

10 Q. What was the next thing that happened to you?

11 A. After a short while I heard behind my back, but it must have been

12 from a distance, "Look, he's still alive". So after a very short

13 while, I think, beatings from the back started again and continued and

14 I lost consciousness.

15 Q. Do you remember where you were after the point of that beating and

16 after you lost consciousness?

17 A. I remember.

18 Q. Where was that?

19 A. Posture, my eyes were turned towards the entrance door. I was lying

20 down. I could see that, that area, the entrance into that area, into

21 the hangar.

22 Q. At some point did you end up in one of the oil pits or canals?

23 A. I do not remember how I got there, only know how I came out. After

24 those blows I somehow found myself in one of the -- in a canal, I do

25 not know how.

Page 3862

1 Q. Do you know how you got out of the canal? Were you assisted by the

2 soldiers who were beating you to pull you out?

3 A. The same person who beat me, the one with the white belt, helped me

4 get out.

5 Q. What happened after that?

6 A. I was taken to WC to wash myself.

7 Q. Did the man in the white belt or anyone else in the WC say anything

8 to you there?

9 A. As I was washing, the water was dirty, my hands were bloody, and I

10 heard behind my back, "If he manages to the dormitory, he will be

11 alive for today at least".

12 Q. Having heard that, did you somehow manage to get back to your room?

13 A. The same person who kept calling me out and take me out and took me

14 out from the canal grabbed me by the shoulder, turned me and said,

15 "Scram, scram so they do not see you again", and naturally I moved

16 towards the room and I got there, how, I do not know, somebody may

17 know it, but in those moments I felt nothing. I only thought I had to

18 get to that room. That is all.

19 Q. Mr. Muslimovic, what injuries did you suffer during this beating?

20 A. Knife stab in two places, right shoulder, cut, cuts along my arms,

21 and naturally blows with the batons which do not leave fractures, but

22 leave another effect, pain, blows in the head. My jaw was broken.

23 Q. Were your feet cut?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was that on the instep of your foot, the middle portion at the

Page 3863

1 bottom?

2 A. The medium part of the foot.

3 Q. Do you know when that happened?

4 A. No.

5 Q. On this occasion do you recall what the man whose photograph you

6 selected was wearing?

7 A. I remember a camouflage uniform.

8 Q. Was he clean shaven or did he have a beard?

9 A. No. He was unkempt, he was not shaven. He did not have a beard. He

10 simply looked like a man who had not shaven for two or three days.

11 That is all.

12 Q. During the times you saw him in camp did you notice or observe

13 anything distinctive or noticeable about the way he walked or moved?

14 A. He walked like a bear. He moved like a bear.

15 Q. Although it may be difficult to imitate, can you indicate perhaps

16 from your chair what kind of a movement that was?

17 A. I will try. It is very difficult because that gait is only his.

18 (The witness indicated).

19 Q. Thank you sir. Nothing further, your Honours. Thank you.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Is there cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

21 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honours.

22 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Before you begin, Mr. Kay, we will continue until 1

24 o'clock when we normally take our lunch break since we began late

25 this morning because we were handling another matter.

Page 3864

1 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. Muslimovic, the first

2 matter I want to ask you about is this, and it concerns whether you

3 have seen any photographs of the accused in this case in the

4 newspapers or television. Last week you told us that you had not seen

5 any photographs of the man accused in this courtroom, is that right?

6 A. No. I have not seen him.

7 Q. You have been living in a place -- would I be right to say that it is

8 in Europe? I do not want to know the country but just whether you

9 have been living in Europe since you left Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. I did not understand, were you referring to before or after?

11 Q. After the conflict and after you left this area, over the last few

12 years perhaps, would it be right to say that you have been living in

13 Europe?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The place where you live has television, would that be right?

16 A. It is true, there is.

17 Q. There are newspapers available to you?

18 A. Never. I do not read papers and I never bought them either before or

19 after the war.

20 Q. Do you see newspapers around perhaps when you travel into the town or

21 see other people reading newspapers?

22 A. That is what interested in least in my life.

23 Q. It may not interest you, but I just want to know whether you are a

24 person who has never seen a newspaper over the last two or three

25 years?

Page 3865

1 A. I have seen newspapers.

2 Q. After the events that happened to you in Omarska, have you taken an

3 interest in what has been happening?

4 A. No, I knew everything and I was not interested in anything else.

5 Q. You were not tempted out of curiosity to see what was happening in

6 relation to allegations against Serbian people concerning those

7 matters that were happening in your former country?

8 A. I already said once, I was not interested in that. I wanted to forget

9 it.

10 Q. You see, what I suggest to you is this, that before you saw that

11 photograph album that was presented to you by an investigator for the

12 Prosecution, you had, in fact, seen pictures of the arrest of Dusko

13 Tadic in Germany?

14 A. That is what you would like to say, but I say I did not.

15 Q. You have had contacts with Muslim people from your region or from

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the last couple of years?

17 A. Not much.

18 Q. Have you talked about what happened to you and what was being done

19 about the arrest of Serb people with fellow Muslims who have had to

20 leave Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. I said once before that this was of no interest to me any more. I

22 wanted to forget it. Those were difficult moments and I do not want

23 to remember them.

24 Q. It is not quite as simple as that though, as something you wanted to

25 forget, because you have made yourself available as a witness for the

Page 3866

1 Prosecution to talk about these matters today, is that right?

2 A. It is true.

3 Q. On an occasion earlier this year you made yourself available so that

4 a statement was taken from you where you discussed matters?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That is right, is it not?

7 A. It is true, but, well, probably people know how many times they have

8 asked, they ask me to talk about it.

9 Q. When that photograph album was shown to you this year, can you

10 remember what the date was?

11 A. It was of no interest to me so I do not know. I think it was May. I

12 am not sure.

13 Q. Your statement was taken in March of this year, the precise date in

14 March does not matter, but when that statement was taken from you in

15 March, was that the occasion when the photograph album was also shown

16 to you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was the photograph album, in fact, shown to you after that statement

19 was taken?

20 A. I talked three or four times to them and only then was I shown the

21 photographic album.

22 Q. So the time that you came to look at that photograph album was nearly

23 four years since those events had happened to you in Omarska?

24 A. I do not know if it was three and a half or four, somewhere around

25 there.

Page 3867

1 Q. It was almost four years?

2 A. If you know that, I do not recall.

3 Q. What you were looking at was a photograph of what size?

4 A. I could not tell it how much in centimetres. I could show it like

5 this.

6 Q. Perhaps if you could hold your fingers up to the Court so that the

7 Bench may see what you have indicated.

8 A. (The witness indicated) A centimetre, up or down, but around there.

9 Q. It was a black and white photograph?

10 A. I think it was, yes.

11 Q. That photograph was not the whole body of a man, but from his

12 shoulders upwards?

13 A. I was only looking at the head. I was not interested in the

14 shoulders.

15 Q. So, essentially, a photograph that just showed the face of the man?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. It was a photograph of a man without a beard?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. A man whose hair was cut fairly short?

20 A. I would not say it was all that short.

21 Q. Very well. You see, what I suggest to you is that you, perhaps, have

22 not told us the truth about this matter, that you did not look at any

23 photographs of Dusko Tadic that have been seen on the world news and

24 in the newspapers of the country where you had been living?

25 A. I did not hear the question. I do not know what you want.

Page 3868

1 Q. What I suggest to you is, and it is for to you accept or deny, that

2 it is not true when you have told us that you did not see any

3 photographs of Dusko Tadic before you looked at that photograph album

4 this year?

5 A. I did not see it.

6 Q. So your recollection of the man that you saw on those occasions in

7 Omarska are recollections of someone that you did not see any image of

8 between the period that you left Omarska and the time that you looked

9 at the photograph album, is that right?

10 A. I already said once.

11 Q. The number of occasions that you say you saw this man in Omarska

12 amount to some four occasions, is that right?

13 A. All total about five or six times, maybe seven, maybe six, maybe

14 five, five, six or seven. I do not know the exact count, nobody was

15 counting it.

16 Q. I said four occasions because I was considering the evidence that you

17 gave us at the end of last week that referred to two collisions which

18 are the incidents that you have described and two other occasions that

19 you saw him at the white house and by the kitchen in Omarska.

20 A. That is a mistake. I never saw him in the white house.

21 Q. What you told us at the end of last week was that you saw him near

22 the white house when you were looking from a window in the room in

23 which you were detained.

24 A. That is something else. There is a big difference between near the

25 white house and in the white house. That is true.

Page 3869

1 Q. You said that you saw him near the kitchen or by the kitchen on an

2 occasion when you were going for lunch?

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I am sorry. I have to object. Counsel is not

4 correctly stating the record which indicates ----

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you referring to the transcript?

6 MR. TIEGER: Yes, I am.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Give us a page and line.

8 MR. TIEGER: Page 25, 25, lines 15 through 16, or you can start at 14, 15,

9 "How many times did you see him by the kitchen?" Answer: "About two

10 times". Then line 19: "How many times did you see him by the white

11 house?" Line 20: "Also about two times".

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have the transcript? You should have it.

13 MR. KAY: I have taken it from the transcript, your Honour, because your

14 Honour will recollect that the first matter which is related to a

15 beating after the interrogation arises when it is alleged that the

16 defendant was by the white house.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I guess the controversy that occurred was when you

18 said you had seen him in the white house, the witness said "no" and

19 you said, "That is what you had testified to" and he said, "No, there

20 is a difference between in the white house and near the white house --

21 at the white house".

22 MR. KAY: It says "in front of the white house", yes.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Not "in the white house".

24 MR. KAY: Yes.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So do you accept Mr. Tieger's objection at least

Page 3870

1 that you are not properly recounting the testimony correctly?

2 MR. KAY: I think it is right that the witness, of course, made the

3 distinction himself and there was, perhaps, no need for an objection.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Except you are moving on to something else now, I

5 gather.

6 MR. TIEGER: It was two-fold. Counsel also suggested to the witness that

7 he had said he only saw the man once by the kitchen and once by the

8 white house. The testimony clearly indicates, consistent with what

9 the witness has said today, that he saw him twice by the kitchen and

10 then saw him about two times near the white house when he was looking

11 from the window. I think that is also a clear representation of the

12 transcript. Counsel did not have it correct when he asked the

13 question in that way.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Re-ask your question, Mr. Kay. I am afraid I am

15 lost. I thought there was a distinction of how many times. I thought

16 you had said four times and the witness had said, "No, that is not so,

17 it was more like six or seven times".

18 MR. KAY: That is right.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know where in the transcript we can resolve

20 that issue. It has not been addressed by Mr. Tieger. So if you will

21 ask your next question, let us see what we can do about getting it

22 straight.

23 MR. KAY: Your Honour, what I will do is deal with the matter in another

24 way. I know the Court has a copy of the transcript anyway. (To the

25 witness): What I would like to question you about now is that others,

Page 3871

1 you say, pointed out the man to you as being Dusko Tadic?

2 A. I did not understand your question again. Please can you be more

3 specific?

4 Q. Before you were in Omarska you did not know Dusko Tadic?

5 A. True, I did not.

6 Q. You had spent no time with that person?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Others pointed to a man and said, "That was Dusko Tadic"?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Perhaps you can tell us the occasion when others pointed him out to

11 you? Where were you?

12 A. We were going to the lunch.

13 Q. You were not in the room that you were being held in the hangar

14 building?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You were not looking from a window in the hangar building and others

17 pointed him out to you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. The first occasion you say that you were beaten by Dusko Tadic, that

20 occurred after you had had an interrogation in the investigation

21 centre?

22 A. I knew the man known as "Dule". I did not know that his last name

23 was "Tadic".

24 Q. What I asked you was, the first occasion you said that you were

25 beaten by the man, it was after you had been questioned in the

Page 3872

1 investigation centre in Omarska?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you remember when that was during your stay in Omarska?

4 A. Maybe five or six days after I arrived in Omarska.

5 Q. You said that you saw that man with others in the area in front of

6 the white house, is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How many others were with him?

9 A. Five or six, maybe seven. I did not have time to count.

10 Q. What were they doing? Were they sitting or standing at the time?

11 A. Some were sitting, some were standing.

12 Q. Can you remember what time of the day it was that your interrogation

13 had finished?

14 A. Well, it was the afternoon.

15 Q. Were you leaving the investigation centre on your own or with a

16 guard?

17 A. With a guard.

18 Q. Was it the habit that when you were moving around the camp you were

19 required to look down at the ground?

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. What you told us on Friday was that you stole a look?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You stole a look to see the group of men?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Was there any reason why you did that?

Page 3873

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was the reason?

3 A. You are looking to be saved. There were still good men around who

4 could help.

5 Q. You had just received a beating during your interrogation in the

6 investigation centre, is that right?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Your questioning had finished and you were being returned to the room

9 in the hangar, is that right?

10 A. Correct. They did not return me. They were beating me along.

11 Q. Were there other guards with you, other than the one escorting you

12 from the investigation centre?

13 A. Only one who was escorting me and beating me.

14 Q. Because you used the plural "they" were beating you and I wanted to

15 know who else was beating you other than that guard you were with when

16 you were moving from the investigation centre back to the hangar.

17 A. Maybe that is what I said, but I referred to everything when I was

18 escorted down from the investigation, and I did not even know where

19 they were they leading me, they were taking me and they were going

20 left and right.

21 Q. Because what I am talking to you about now is that time when you say

22 you stole a look to see the men on the grass area near the white

23 house. At that stage you were being beaten, were you, by one man or

24 more than one man?

25 A. Again, I said -- I am repeating -- there were four men beating me

Page 3874

1 when I was interrogated and I was led back by one man. So I called it

2 the plural because that day I was beaten by multiple men, and so there

3 were four men who beat me during the interrogation and then one man as

4 he was escorting me back. I do not know what else to say, to explain.

5 Q. Where those men were in front of the white house, they appeared to

6 have no particular business with you, is that right? They had not

7 been involved in your investigation earlier?

8 A. No, they were not. Those men were not upstairs where I was

9 interrogated.

10 Q. For some reason you were chased by them, you told us. Is that right?

11 A. I do not know how, if you can say "chased", if that is how you say

12 it, it is all right. I was, I sped up, they followed me. There was

13 no running involved. That is all.

14 Q. Was it the whole group of some six or seven men who then confronted

15 you?

16 A. Again, I did not understand the question.

17 Q. The group you had seen on the grass area in front of the white house,

18 was it that group?

19 A. I do not understand the question.

20 Q. The group of men you had seen in front of the white house, was it the

21 whole group who confronted you and beat you?

22 A. I think it was not the whole group.

23 Q. Were these men armed?

24 A. Some were, some were not.

25 Q. When you say it was the man called Dusko Tadic who grabbed you by the

Page 3875

1 hair, can you recollect how he was dressed, what he was wearing?

2 A. The same uniform as he was wearing that night.

3 Q. Perhaps you could describe that to us, as to what that uniform was?

4 A. For me, it was the camouflage uniform. I do not know what else to

5 say.

6 Q. Can you recollect if there was a belt on that uniform and, if so,

7 what colour of belt it was?

8 A. As far as I remember, there was a belt, but I do not recall the

9 colour.

10 Q. From what you describe you were pulled by your hair from behind, is

11 that right?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. You were being forced to kiss the badge on a beret of a man who was

14 in front of you?

15 A. I was forced to but I did not.

16 Q. So for some reason you chose not to do that when you were under

17 threat and fear?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. Somehow you were able to escape from where you were being held with

20 those men around you?

21 A. Yes, I was.

22 Q. How did you escape?

23 A. It was not audible to me. I did not hear.

24 Q. How did you escape?

25 A. In what way? I do not know how, but I was saved.

Page 3876

1 Q. Can you remember the names of any other people who were within that

2 group of men who were attacking you in this way?

3 A. Saponja, and the gentleman from the picture, the others I do not.

4 Q. Saponja was involved on this occasion, was he, this first occasion

5 that you had the beating in that way?

6 A. Yes, he was.

7 Q. Was he involved in the second occasion as well?

8 A. I do not remember that he was.

9 Q. You also referred at the end of last week to someone called Dusko

10 Kecman (sic)?

11 A. No never, not even then. If you can pronounce the man exactly, then

12 I will -- it is not Kecmar, it is not -- I do not know those names.

13 Q. Kecema, which I have recorded here as K-E-C-E-M-A?

14 A. That is -- that is something else, yes.

15 Q. Was he there on this first occasion?

16 A. No.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We just checked the transcript. Judge Stephen has

18 brought the transcript. It seems that when the witness testified he

19 said, "I recognise Kecema, Dusko or perhaps I thought he could be the

20 one who could perhaps help me". So it appears that Kecema and Dusko

21 are two different people. Is that how you understood it?

22 MR. KAY: There is the practice of using of what we would call the surname

23 first with a first name afterwards. If your Honour will see down at

24 line 32, the understanding of the question at the time.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is good. Thank you, Mr. Kay.

Page 3877

1 MR. KAY: Yes. (To the witness): But you told us last week that Kecema

2 was there on this first occasion?

3 A. Kecema was present on the grass. I remember those two men. Those

4 who beat me along the way, I did not remember.

5 Q. I am asking you now about the time that you were being held, and you

6 have told the Court that it was the man in the photograph who was

7 present there at that time. I am interested in that time when you

8 were beaten by this group, having come into the hangar.

9 A. I see you are interested in time. I was never interested in time.

10 All I know it was afternoon. That is all. I did not write textbooks

11 there or minutes.

12 Q. Confronted, though, with that group and being beaten in that way, how

13 were you able to escape?

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I think that was asked and answered.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will sustain -- Mr. Kay, I recall that you asked

16 it and I can recall that the witness kind of chuckled. He said, "I do

17 not know, I got away".

18 MR. KAY: I did ask it before -- your Honour is quite right -- and I have

19 been trying to orientate the witness into the position where this

20 beating ----

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will sustain the objection. It has been asked and

22 answered. He says he does not know.

23 MR. KAY: Yes. (To the witness): There we are. So that it is clear,

24 what I suggest to you is this, that in fact you did not recognise

25 Dusko Tadic as being present when this beating took place, if it took

Page 3878

1 place at all?

2 A. That is what you think.

3 Q. Can I turn now then to the second incident that you allege involved

4 the man in the photograph? When you were called out of the room, was

5 that by a guard or one of the group who was eventually involved in

6 giving you the beating down in the hangar?

7 A. That came from the entrance door.

8 Q. You were taken down from the room you were in into the hangar by a

9 guard or was it by someone else?

10 A. Nobody escorted me. I was called out. I came out. The guard who

11 stood at the door moved a little bit away and sat down. So I walked

12 down the stairs. That is all.

13 Q. How many people were down in the hangar who made up this group that

14 attacked you?

15 A. Seven, eight, 10. Not less than seven. There must have been more.

16 Q. Again, if I can ask you this, can you identify any of the people who

17 were present there at that time other than the man you say was in the

18 photograph?

19 A. I do not know.

20 Q. So it is just the man in the photograph is the one you identify as

21 being part of that group, would that be right?

22 A. And the man with a white belt.

23 Q. Did you know the name of the man with the white belt or can you

24 identify him by any other way?

25 A. I did not know the name. I only remember his white slings, that is

Page 3879

1 all, and heavy blows.

2 Q. Again, this is a beating that took place when you lost consciousness

3 several times, is that right?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. The effect on you must have caused you to have become very

6 disorientated?

7 A. Every now and then, yes.

8 Q. When you lose consciousness and then return to consciousness, was

9 that an experience that caused you to have difficulty with

10 understanding what exactly was happening to you?

11 A. Again, I did not understand the question completely. I do apologise.

12 Q. When you lost your consciousness and eventually regained it, were

13 you, in fact, in a state of confusion?

14 A. No.

15 Q. To an extent that you were unsure of what was happening around you?

16 A. I am quite positive about what was going on around me -- more than

17 positive.

18 Q. Yes, you see, what I suggest to you is that photograph has been shown

19 to you and you knew already by other sources what Dusko Tadic looked

20 like, and you were determined to identify him ---

21 A. That is not true.

22 Q. -- and the circumstances you were in on that day were such that you

23 have no clear recollection of what the man looked like amongst the

24 others who were attacking you?

25 A. If you went through the same thing, you would also remember it quite

Page 3880

1 well.

2 MR. KAY: I have no further questions, your Honour.


4 Re-Examined by MR. TIEGER

5 MR. TIEGER: I just have one point of clarification, your Honour, and I do

6 not know how to do that without, I guess, announcing in advance that I

7 think we will need a redaction from the record. So, if it is

8 permissible to the Court, I will proceed despite that necessity. The

9 question -----

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It depends upon how long you will proceed because if

11 we need a redaction, do we need to go back and you need to give us a

12 time for the redaction? Can we handle that first? Am I following you

13 correctly?

14 MR. TIEGER: I think the question will elicit a response which will

15 require a redaction, just to clarify the record.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Fine. You proceed.

17 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): I think there was some confusion earlier,

18 sir -- I just have one question for you -- you were asked whether or

19 not you had been living in Europe since the time of the war and since

20 leaving the area of the conflict. Is it not true that you emigrated

21 to a country in (redacted) where you have been living since the

22 time of your emigration?

23 A. I spent a very short part of that in Europe.

24 Q. After that -----

25 A. To my mind, Slovenia, Austria and all the rest are Europe.

Page 3881

1 Q. OK. But you actually emigrated to a country in (redacted) where

2 you have been living?

3 A. Correct.

4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. That is all I wanted to clarify, your Honour.


6 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Muslimovic being

8 permanently excused?

9 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Muslimovic, you are permanently excused. Thank

11 you for coming.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you for inviting me.

13 (The witness withdrew)

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann and Mr. Tieger, who will handle the next

15 witness?

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the next witness is Armin Kenjar.

17 MR. ARMIN KENJAR, called.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kenjar, would you take the oath there that has

19 been handed to you?

20 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

21 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

22 (The witness was sworn)

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

24 Examined by MR. TIEGER.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

Page 3882

1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Sir, can you tell the Court your

2 name for the record, please?

3 A. Armin Kenjar.

4 Q. Mr. Kenjar, where were you born?

5 A. In Kamicani.

6 Q. In what year were you born?

7 A. 1970.

8 Q. What is your nationality?

9 A. Muslim.

10 Q. Does Kamicani border Kozarac?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was it primarily an area consisting of homes and houses?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was Kozarac where the shops, cafes and stores of the local area were?

15 A. Quite so.

16 Q. So was central Kozarac the area where people from Kamicani went to

17 town when they needed to shop and such?

18 A. Yes, yes, that is so.

19 Q. The people from Kamicani considered Kozarac their town?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Would you sometimes say that you were from Kamicani and sometimes say

22 you were from Kozarac?

23 A. Yes, sometimes.

24 Q. What was your occupation before the war?

25 A. I worked in the carpenters shop that we had there.

Page 3883

1 Q. Did you serve in the JNA?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What were your duties in the JNA?

4 A. I did not have a rank. I was with the Engineers Battalion.

5 Q. When did you serve with the JNA?

6 A. '89/90.

7 Q. After you did serve, did you return home to the Kozarac area to work

8 as a carpenter?

9 A. Yes, that is so.

10 Q. Do you know Dule Tadic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How long have you known him?

13 A. For a long time, many years, since I was a child. He used to be my

14 idol once. I passed by his coffee bar. I went to this gym where he

15 practised. I looked through the window many times when a child.

16 Q. Why was he your idol as a child?

17 A. Because he was a karateist, he was the trainer, coacher. He was the

18 best. We all thought him the best.

19 Q. As you grew up and became a young adult, did you continue to see him

20 and know him?

21 A. Yes. Every day, every week.

22 Q. Would the two of you wave and greet each other as you passed by?

23 A. Yes, regularly when we pass each other by, to greet each other, if we

24 know each other, then to say "hello".

25 Q. Did Dule Tadic have a noticeable or distinctive way of walking or

Page 3884

1 moving?

2 A. Yes, it was rather characteristic, an athletic, like a cowboy,

3 roughly.

4 Q. Can you show us what that looked like?

5 A. Yes. (The witness indicated).

6 Q. Thank you. Approximately four to five months before the war, were

7 you called up as a reserve policeman?

8 A. That is so.

9 Q. What were your duties as a reserve policeman?

10 A. First, I was to be in the security of the police station in Kozarac.

11 Then it was checkpoints around Kozarac and in Kozarac itself.

12 Q. At the checkpoints, was that some form of traffic control?

13 A. Yes, traffic control and control of weapons, if somebody was in

14 illegal possession of some weapons.

15 Q. Did all nationalities, including Serbs, or did both Serbs and Muslims

16 work at the checkpoints?

17 A. Yes, they were all there.

18 Q. During the course of your duties as a reserve policeman, did you

19 become aware of an incident involving the Serbian Orthodox church?

20 A. Yes, I heard something about it and then I looked up the book that

21 was on the table, a book of applications.

22 Q. Was that a log book in which incidents or events were recorded?

23 A. Yes, something of the sort that is all complaints were put on, were

24 noted down in that book.

25 Q. Did you see that incident recorded in the log book?

Page 3885

1 A. Yes, it was recorded.

2 Q. What did the log book indicate about that incident?

3 A. There was a short description that Mr. Tadic had been seen in the

4 vicinity of the church with canisters of petrol and with the probable

5 intent of setting the church on fire.

6 Q. Mr. Kenjar, where were you when the attack on Kozarac began on May

7 24th?

8 A. I was sleeping.

9 Q. You were at home asleep?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Had you worked the night before and is that why you were asleep?

12 A. Yes, quite so.

13 Q. Did a family member wake you up to tell you that ---

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- the war had started?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where did you go then?

18 A. I started for Kamicani, in the direction of the fire, gunfire.

19 Q. How did you try to travel to Kamicani?

20 A. On a bicycle.

21 Q. After going to the area of Kamicani, did you then try to go to the

22 police headquarters in Kozarac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you trying to find out what was happening or what you could do?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3886

1 JUDGE STEPHEN: I wonder if you could clear up, where did he start from?

2 MR. TIEGER: I am sorry, your Honour. (To the witness): Where exactly

3 was your home, Mr. Kenjar, and where were you going? I think the

4 confusion is you said you were going to Kamicani and the Court is

5 aware that your home was in Kamicani.

6 A. Yes, I was -- I started for the Local Commune building in Kamicani.

7 We called, that part around that centre we called Kamicani, we also

8 belonged in Kamicani, that part where I lived.

9 Q. When you got to the police headquarters in Kozarac, was anyone there?

10 A. There was no-one there.

11 Q. Did you eventually go to a shelter which had been built by your

12 brother and his neighbour?

13 A. Yes, I returned towards the shelter.

14 Q. Were there many women and children there?

15 A. Yes, there were women and children.

16 Q. From that time until May 29th did you spend your time going from the

17 shelter and bringing blankets and food to refugees in the Brdjani

18 area?

19 A. No, I was bringing food to the refugees, the civilians, where I did

20 not spend any time in the shelter. I was helping everyone I could.

21 Q. Did you also bring food to the Muslim defence line?

22 A. Yes, yes, on one occasion.

23 Q. How many men were there at the defence line?

24 A. About 50. There were one group.

25 Q. Where was that?

Page 3887

1 A. At the foothill of Menkovici.

2 Q. How were those people armed?

3 A. They were very poorly armed. Some had an automatic rifle, some had

4 the old rifle, M48, some of those had some hand-made weapons. They

5 were very poorly armed.

6 Q. At some point before May 29th did you decide to make an effort to

7 escape from the area?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where did you want to go?

10 A. Towards Bosanska Dubica.

11 Q. Eventually what point did you hope to reach, what point of safety?

12 A. Bosanska Dubica.

13 Q. Did you intend to stay in Bosanska Dubica or go on after that?

14 A. Yes, we thought of somehow getting across to Croatia from

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 Q. You say "we", did you go with a friend?

17 A. Yes, I had a friend along.

18 Q. As you and your friend went towards Bosanska Dubica, were you trying

19 to avoid Serb forces?

20 A. Yes, we were avoiding them in every way we could.

21 Q. Did you spend the night in the forest, for example, in that effort?

22 A. Yes, we spent one night, until the daybreak.

23 Q. The next morning were you and your friend seen and captured by Serb

24 forces in Mostanica?

25 A. Yes, we were noticed and caught.

Page 3888

1 Q. Mostanica is near Bosanska Dubica?

2 A. Mostanica is near Bosanska Dubica.

3 Q. After you were seized, where were you taken?

4 A. We were taken to the prison in Bosanska Dubica.

5 Q. Were you placed in a cell?

6 A. Yes, before that we were interrogated and then returned to the cell.

7 Then we were put in that cell in which we were.

8 Q. Was a Serb also put in that cell?

9 A. No, not then.

10 Q. OK. At some point while you were held in the prison in Bosanska

11 Dubica, was a Serbian man put in your cell?

12 A. Yes, a Serb was brought.

13 Q. Why was that Serbian man put in the cell?

14 A. Because he had defended Muslims, because he did not hate Muslims.

15 Q. After he was put in the cell, were you or your friend or any other

16 Muslims in the cell told to do anything?

17 A. Yes, we had to beat him.

18 Q. Were you forced to do that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who forced you to do that, first of all?

21 A. One of those guards who were around there told me to hit him. I

22 said, "Why should I? The man is not responsible for anything. I have

23 no reason".

24 Q. When you initially declined to hit him, what did the guard say or do?

25 A. First, he told me that unless I hit him, that Serb, then all of them

Page 3889

1 would beat me. Then I hit lightly. I just slapped him lightly in the

2 face. Then the guard who was there, he slapped me with all the

3 strength he could summon and told me, "That's how you should beat

4 him".

5 Q. Was that Serb later moved to another cell?

6 A. Yes, first after me, my colleague also hit him and then he was

7 transferred to another cell where Dzavid Mahmuljin was.

8 Q. What happened in that cell that you could hear?

9 A. One could hear these provocations by that Serb who was provoking

10 Dzavid Mahmuljin and I think he hit him or something.

11 Q. So when the Serb was moved to the next cell, he was then obliged to

12 attack the Muslim in that cell?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The next day were you taken to the Prijedor SUP?

15 A. That is correct, yes.

16 Q. At some point while you were in the Prijedor police station, did

17 someone threaten to execute you and the other Muslims you were with?

18 A. Yes, it was Cigo who was there who threatened us. He said he wanted

19 to have us shot. Then the guard came who was with us and said, "Don't

20 shoot them. They will be shot where they are going".

21 Q. The translation we received said, "They will be shot where they are

22 going". Were those the words that the guard used?

23 A. Yes, exactly.

24 Q. I guess that is not ----

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You get back to the same again ---

Page 3890

1 MR. TIEGER: Exactly.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- so I do not know you can correct that.

3 MR. TIEGER: Did the guard indicate you would be shot with a gun or that

4 you would be in some way killed where you were going?

5 A. He said, "Where they are going, that is where they will be killed".

6 He did not specify the manner.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may interrupt for a moment? Can I take up

8 that matter of the redaction I mentioned earlier?

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, you can give us -- yes.

10 MR. TIEGER: It was at 12.06.42 and it appears in the transcript at page

11 23 line 21.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to that ----

13 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- redaction. OK, that redaction will be made.

15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Kenjar, after you were told at

16 the Prijedor SUP that you would be killed where you were going, were

17 you and the others then taken to Omarska?

18 A. Yes, we were.

19 Q. In Omarska were you first held in the small garage for a couple of

20 days?

21 A. Yes, a few days I was there.

22 Q. Then were you held in the hangar building, in the upstairs portion of

23 the hangar building for another couple of days?

24 A. Yes, again several days until that room was filled up.

25 Q. Then where were you moved?

Page 3891

1 A. Then we were moved to the ground floor, to the small room.

2 Q. Is that the small room near the room which leads to the stairway?

3 A. Yes, that is the one.

4 Q. Did you remain in that room until you were transferred -- did you

5 remain held in that room until you were transferred to Manjaca on

6 August 6th?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 Q. Mr. Kenjar how would you describe the general conditions in Omarska

9 during the time you were held there?

10 A. Those were disastrous conditions. They were not for living. They

11 treated us like animals there. In a civilized world you do not treat

12 animals like that. We did have not drinking water. The water that we

13 had was contaminated. There was lice. People were called out day and

14 night and taken out and never came back. There was a lot of abuse, a

15 lot of provoking. In all kinds of ways we were abused. We were

16 beaten during lunch time. We were forced to luncheon within three

17 minutes and it looked impossible. Many would just leave their meals

18 and would just take their bread with them. Sometimes they would get a

19 quarter of bread, sometimes an eighth sometimes. They would be left

20 without lunch.

21 Q. Were prisoners called out from the rooms ----

22 A. Yes, they were called out.

23 Q. --- for such purposes as interrogation?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was the condition of the prisoners who returned from

Page 3892

1 interrogation most often?

2 A. Usually beaten up.

3 Q. Were prisoners also called out from the rooms sometimes during the

4 day and at night for beatings or killings?

5 A. Yes, they were called out.

6 Q. Did that happen on a regular basis?

7 A. Every once in a while. Well, in fact daily. It happened every day.

8 There was not a day passed that somebody was not taken out.

9 Q. Were you aware who the commander of the camp was?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who was that?

12 A. Zeljko Meakic.

13 Q. Did you see him around the camp?

14 A. Yes, I saw him.

15 Q. How often?

16 A. Every day.

17 Q. Did he see the condition of the prisoners who were beaten and

18 treated in this way?

19 A. Of course he did. He walked around on a daily basis. He was going

20 to the white house where people were beaten up. He was probably

21 seeing all the dead bodies around the white house.

22 Q. Were you involved in an effort to get someone released from the white

23 house by getting bribe money to Meakic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How much money was asked for?

Page 3893

1 A. They were asking for 100 deutschemarks.

2 Q. How much money were you and the others able to raise?

3 A. 100 francs.

4 Q. Who was the person you were trying to get released?

5 A. Hase Icic.

6 Q. Despite the fact that you were not able to collect the amount

7 demanded, did that money prove sufficient to get Mr. Icic out of the

8 white house?

9 A. Yes, it was enough.

10 Q. Did you participate in collecting the money and then give it to

11 another prisoner who gave it to Meakic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Kenjar, did you ever see Dule Tadic in Omarska?

14 A. Yes, I saw him.

15 Q. Did that occur on the day that Jasko Hrnic was called from your room?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. About what time of the day was it that you saw Dule Tadic?

18 A. It was an hour or maybe half an hour before he was taken out, before

19 Jasko Hrnic was taken out.

20 Q. Where were you when you saw Dule Tadic?

21 A. I was on that improvised hallway.

22 Q. And where was Dule Tadic when you saw him?

23 A. He was between those two canals in the hangar.

24 Q. Mr. Kenjar, I am not sure if the cameras will permit us to see this

25 as well as we might want, but I would wonder if you would indicate on

Page 3894

1 the model, using that pointer to the right, where you were when you

2 saw Dule Tadic and where he was?

3 A. Yes. I was around here somewhere and Tadic was around there.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you hear?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please ask the witness to speak into a

6 microphone.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kenjar, get these microphones and put them on,

8 please, and then speak into this microphone.

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Your Honour, I cannot see it quite well. Do you mind if

10 I walk nearby so I can see it?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you can move over this way, if it is possible.

12 Mr. Kenjar, if you can move this way. Can he, Mr. Tieger, you know

13 better than I? Good.

14 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Kenjar, I am sorry to ask you to do this again, but if

15 you could point out once again where you were first when you saw Dule

16 Tadic?

17 A. I was there.

18 Q. Can you indicate where he was?

19 A. Somewhere around here.

20 Q. So he was in an area between the two canals which are closest to the

21 exit or entrance of the hangar building?

22 A. He was right around there.

23 Q. Your Honour, if I might step forward for just a moment?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. To the model?

25 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

Page 3895

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, do you need to join Mr. Tieger?

2 OK, he just wanted to see better himself. Are we finished with Mr.

3 Kenjar describing?

4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. Mr. Kenjar, you can resume your seat. Mr.

5 Kenjar, when you saw Dule Tadic on that occasion what was he wearing,

6 if you recall?

7 A. A camouflage uniform.

8 Q. Was he clean shaven or did he have a beard?

9 A. He had a few days growth.

10 Q. Are you absolutely sure that it was Dule Tadic that you saw at that

11 point?

12 A. Yes, absolutely, I am certain. He was close enough so that I could

13 recognise him.

14 Q. After you saw and recognised it was Dule Tadic, what did you do?

15 A. I turned around and I ran off to the room where I was.

16 Q. Did you actually run or did you walk quickly back to your room?

17 A. No, I was not running. I just sped up. It would have been too

18 conspicuous had I been running.

19 Q. Did you go back to your normal place in the room?

20 A. Yes, I returned to there.

21 Q. Your Honour, can we call up on the monitor Z3 19-33? I am advised

22 we will have to use the Elmo. Our technician is not available. May I

23 have Exhibit 256 then placed on the Elmo? I am sorry, I will have to

24 have this marked for identification as Exhibit 256. Mr. Kenjar, do

25 you recognise what is shown in that photograph?

Page 3896

1 A. Yes, that is the room where I was.

2 Q. Your Honour, I would ask that that be tendered for admission and

3 placed on the Elmo.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 256 will be admitted.

7 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Kenjar, although it is not shown in this portion of the

8 photograph, is there a portion of the room where there is a small

9 corner toward the front where the wall moves to the left and then

10 expands the room slightly and moves back? Perhaps that is not a very

11 good explanation.

12 A. Yes, there is such a part.

13 Q. Can you indicate on the photograph approximately where that would be

14 located, although not shown in the photograph?

15 A. In front of this blue table here. Here.

16 Q. May I have this marked for identification, please, as Exhibit 257?

17 JUDGE VOHRAH: Mr. Tieger, could you indicate in the floor plan submitted

18 by Miss Hollis where this particular room is, Exhibit 130A? Did you

19 hear my question?

20 MR. TIEGER: I did. I can certainly indicate. Would you like me to have

21 the witness indicate on the model first or are you comfortable this

22 way?

23 JUDGE VOHRAH: Anything will do.

24 MR. TIEGER: It will be A17, as indicated on Exhibit 130A. Mr. Kenjar, did

25 you recognise what is in that photograph and does it show that portion

Page 3897

1 of the room to which you were just referring?

2 A. Yes, that is that part.

3 Q. Your Honour, I tender this photograph as Exhibit 257.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Have we seen that, 257? We are looking at -- thank

5 you, Mr. Wladimiroff. I have not seen it. We have the floor plan

6 and we could see the kind of a cut in the room, but why do you not put

7 it on the monitor. That does not give us -- yes, it does right there.

8 Could you point, Mr. Kenjar, where the room comes out? Is that where

9 the blue table is there and then it goes off to the left, I guess,

10 from the photo?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Kenjar, as we look at that photograph is the entrance to

13 the room to the left and the rear of the room to the right?

14 A. I did not understand the question.

15 Q. Would the direction of the entrance to the room as we are looking at

16 the photograph be to the left?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And would the back of the room be to the right?

19 A. That part where the table is, that is to the left.

20 Q. So as you enter the room the part that we are looking at now would be

21 to the left, is that correct?

22 A. That is exactly right.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 257?

24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 257 will be admitted.

Page 3898

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, could we have Exhibit 130A placed on the Elmo,

2 please, 130A? Mr. Kenjar, looking at this exhibit and looking -- you

3 may have to look at the actual exhibit to your right to make it out --

4 can you see the room marked A17? You may want to look to your right.

5 I see it is not so clear on the screen.

6 A. Yes, I can see it.

7 Q. OK, and does that show the room in which you were?

8 A. Yes, it is showing it.

9 Q. Can you point out on the actual exhibit to your right where your

10 place in the room was?

11 A. Yes. (The witness indicated on the exhibit).

12 Q. That would be up there near that corner which we saw on the

13 photograph?

14 A. Yes, that is it.

15 Q. Was Jasko Hrnic, where was his normal place?

16 A. On that table, on top of that table, which was in that part of the

17 room.

18 Q. May I have this marked as Exhibit 258 for identification, please?

19 Looking at this photograph, Mr. Kenjar, does this more closely

20 resemble the table on which Jasko Hrnic was than, for example, the

21 desk which is shown in the previous photograph?

22 A. Yes, that is exactly that table.

23 Q. Your Honour, I would tender this exhibit for admission.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you put it on the Elmo, please.

25 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

Page 3899

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection ----

2 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- to 258? 258 is what, Mr. Tieger?

4 MR. TIEGER: It is the photograph of the table or a table which looked

5 like the one on which Jasko Hrnic was sleeping.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, very good. 258 will be admitted.

7 MR. TIEGER: Why was Jasko Hrnic sleeping on the table?

8 A. He was beaten up, so it was a more comfortable place for him. When

9 he moved to our room he was beaten up. He was in a disastrous state.

10 Q. Where had Mr. Hrnic been before he came to your room?

11 A. He was caught in Benkovac and then he was in a small garage and then

12 he was moved to our room.

13 Q. Was Jasko Hrnic a well-known and popular person in Kozarac?

14 A. Yes, he was known and he was quite popular.

15 Q. What kind of person was he?

16 A. I did not understand the question, I am sorry.

17 Q. Sure. Why was he popular? What kind of person was he?

18 A. He drove motor cycles, big motor cycles. He had his own trucks. He

19 was quite well known because of that and he was a good man.

20 Q. Did Jasko Hrnic and Dule Tadic know each other?

21 A. Yes, they knew each other.

22 JUDGE STEPHEN: Could I just enquire about the first name of this man? Is

23 that a nickname?

24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Was Jasko Mr.

25 Hrnic's nickname?

Page 3900

1 A. Yes, that was the nickname.

2 Q. Do you know what his real name was?

3 A. Jasmin Hrnic.

4 Q. Did you sometimes see Dule Tadic and Jasko Hrnic associating together

5 in Kozarac in cafes?

6 A. Yes, occasionally I would see them sometimes.

7 Q. Did you also know Emir Karabasic?

8 A. Yes, I knew him.

9 Q. Were he and Jasko Hrnic good friends?

10 A. Yes, they were very good.

11 Q. Were prisoners sometimes able to move from one room to another during

12 the day depending on the shift?

13 A. Yes, sometimes.

14 Q. For example, would it also be helpful if you were friendly with the

15 person who was designated to interact with the guards and let people

16 know when they could use the toilet?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you, for example, friendly with the person in your room or close

19 to the person in your room who interacted with the guards?

20 A. Yes, I was.

21 Q. Were you able to visit other portions of the camp?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. Now did Emir Karabasic come to visit Jasko Hrnic in your room?

24 A. Yes, he was coming. He was visiting and also Jasmin was going to

25 Emir Karabasic. They were friends.

Page 3901

1 Q. When you returned to the room after seeing Dule Tadic, did you go

2 back to your normal place?

3 A. Yes, I would go back.

4 Q. Where was that relative to the table?

5 A. Under the table at that time.

6 Q. Did you tell Jasko Hrnic that you had seen Dule Tadic?

7 A. Yes, I told him.

8 Q. How did he react?

9 A. You could see a fear in his eyes. His chin shivered and he was

10 afraid.

11 Q. Now after approximately an hour to half an hour did prisoners begin

12 to be called out?

13 A. Yes, they started to be called out.

14 Q. Do you remember the precise order in which prisoners were called out?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was called out first, as you recall?

17 A. Emir Karabasic.

18 Q. Where was Emir's room?

19 A. On the first floor above us. In a room directly above us.

20 Q. What were you able to hear after Emir was called out?

21 A. I could hear screams and wailing and blows with blunt objects. You

22 could hear all kinds of things. It was something terrible. It was

23 like a nightmare.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30.

25 (1.00 p.m.)

Page 3902

1 (Luncheon Adjournment)


3 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you continue, please?

5 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. Thank you.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may begin.

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

8 MR. ARMIN KENJAR, recalled.

9 Examined by MR. TIEGER, continued

10 Q. Mr. Kenjar, before we adjourned, you were describing the sounds you

11 heard after Emir Karabasic was called out from his room.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sometime after that happened did you hear another prisoner called out

14 from his room?

15 A. Yes, I heard it.

16 Q. What name was that who was called out?

17 A. Jasko Hrnic.

18 Q. How was Jasko called out?

19 A. First, he was called out as Asko Hrnic. I, we understood that they

20 were calling out Asko Hrnic.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kenjar, would you pull the microphone up a

22 little bit? That might be better. Thank you.

23 MR. TIEGER: During this incident were any other prisoners other than Emir

24 Karabasic and Jasko Hrnic called out?

25 A. You mean in that room in which I was?

Page 3903

1 Q. No, no, during the incident as it occurred, were other prisoners, any

2 other prisoner, besides Emir Karabasic and Jasko Hrnic called out, as

3 you recall?

4 A. I did not hear that. It is possible that some were called out but I

5 do not know.

6 Q. Did you know who Enver Alic was?

7 A. Yes, I know.

8 Q. Do you know whether or not he was called out during this incident?

9 A. Yes, he was called out too.

10 Q. Are you able to recall whether or not he was called out before or

11 after Jasko?

12 A. After Jasko, I believe.

13 Q. When Jasko Hrnic was called out as "Asko", did he go out right away,

14 did he respond?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Was he called out more than once?

17 A. Yes, yes. We heard Asko Hrnic being called out, but I cannot

18 remember, perhaps it was several times, we heard it once at that place

19 where we were.

20 Q. Did Jasko finally respond or say anything to the calling out of his

21 name?

22 A. Only when the door opened, then Jasko said, "There is Jasmin Hrnic

23 here, there is no Asko Hrnic", and then the individual who was in the

24 doorway, in front of the door, he said, "It's you we need".

25 Q. From the position you were in, were you able to see the door?

Page 3904

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you select that spot for a particular reason?

3 A. Yes, we were hiding, so to speak. We moved away behind that wall

4 which covered us.

5 Q. Was that in part because you had been a Muslim reserve policeman?

6 A. Yes, yes, I was hiding. I did not want to be conspicuous.

7 Q. What percentage of Muslim reserve policemen survived Omarska, would

8 you estimate?

9 A. A small percentage.

10 Q. Did Jasko finally go out at that point you described, after he had

11 said, "There is Jasmin here"?

12 A. Yes, he went out.

13 Q. After Jasko went out, what did you hear?

14 A. One could hear screams, blows with some blunt instruments, cries of

15 pain. One could hear noise. One could hear cry outs, "Bite to the

16 balls", "Give it a blow", horrible, obscene expressions. It was the

17 most terrible things I have yet lived to hear. I cannot wish it on

18 anyone. That was really horrible. It was like a nightmare. I do not

19 know what was happening with those people, what was happening to them,

20 but I think they must have been massacred, killed, slain in the worst

21 way possible.

22 Q. How long did this continue for? Were there just a few screams, a few

23 blows?

24 A. Quite a long time, quite a long time. I felt it was an eternity,

25 that it was a dream that would never end. It was so dreadful, so

Page 3905

1 horrible.

2 Q. Did the screams and the shouting and horrible and obscene expressions

3 finally stop?

4 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

5 Q. Sure. Did all of this which you were listening to, the screams and

6 the cries, finally end?

7 A. Yes, it did come to an end.

8 Q. Sometime after that what could you hear?

9 A. Then we heard the sound of the engine of that small TAM truck that

10 was there.

11 Q. What was the TAM truck used for?

12 A. It served to bring food in and to take the bodies that were there

13 out.

14 Q. After you heard the engine of the small TAM truck, what did you hear?

15 A. Well, then there was music. One could not hear properly, and after a

16 while we again heard the sound of an engine, and the departure of that

17 small TAM truck which had come up.

18 Q. Did you hear anything after that?

19 A. After a short, after a short while, a shot could be heard from a

20 distance, and I believe that one of them was still alive and,

21 therefore, was finished up.

22 Q. After some period of time following this, did a guard come to the

23 door and tell people they could again leave the room?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did someone leave the room and then come back?

Page 3906

1 A. Asim Dergic came out.

2 Q. When he came back, did he indicate that there was a need for some

3 paste for washing, paste of the type that was used for washing the

4 hands, in the WC?

5 A. Yes, he told me to take this paste to the WC, to room G, which was

6 there.

7 Q. Did you go to the WC?

8 A. Yes, I took the paste and I went to that part in front of the WC

9 where those troughs were, and there I saw person G with his head

10 covered in some oil, some black oil, he had on the hair. I asked him

11 what happened.

12 Q. What did he say?

13 A. And he answered, "Don't ask". He was scared stiff. He looked

14 terrible.

15 Q. At the entrance to the WC, what did you see on the floor?

16 A. I saw stains of freshly washed blood that was there.

17 Q. Mr. Kenjar, after you returned to your room again and the incident

18 was over, did you want to make some remembrance of your friend, Jasko

19 Hrnic?

20 A. Yes, after some time I sat at that table where Jasko used to sit and

21 I reflected and I thought, well, Jasko is gone, he is no longer among

22 us, and I turned and then I wrote on the wall, "18th June, 1900

23 hours".

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, can we call up Z3 58-8? (To the witness): Mr.

25 Kenjar, looking at the photograph which is now shown on the screen,

Page 3907

1 does that indicate in the lower right hand or in the right hand

2 portion of the photograph the date you wrote on the wall in your room?

3 A. Yes, that is the date.

4 Q. What is written next to the date "June 18th" just to the right?

5 A. "1900 hours".

6 Q. Was that the time you wrote this down?

7 A. Yes, that was the time when I wrote it down.

8 Q. About how long after the incident was over did you write it down?

9 A. About one hour.

10 Q. The name "Jasko" which is written to the left of that date, do you

11 know who wrote that?

12 A. Yes, that was Jasko, that was -- he did it in his own hand.

13 Q. The date which is written above, do you know what that date refers to

14 specifically?

15 A. I do not. Jasko perhaps recorded the birthday of his child or

16 something else. I cannot remember.

17 Q. Or possibly the date he came to the room?

18 A. Possibly. I do not think so. I do not think -- I somehow think it

19 was not the birthday of his son. I think the birthday came later. It

20 could be the date of his arrival in that room.

21 Q. Was Jasko often writing the birthday of his son?

22 A. Yes, all over the place, on the floor, on that table, on the walls.

23 He talked about his son a lot.

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender the photograph as Exhibit 259.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

Page 3908

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 259 will be admitted.

3 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Wladimiroff?


6 Cross-Examined by MR. WLADIMIROFF

7 Q. Mr. Kenjar, the first matter I want to ask you deals with your

8 experiences during the conflict in general. How long were you in

9 Omarska camp?

10 A. About 70 days, thereabouts.

11 Q. After that you went to another camp?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How long did you stay there?

14 A. Until December 13th '92.

15 Q. What does it mean, how many days or months or weeks were you in that

16 other camp?

17 A. I did not count the days. I was not in such circumstances.

18 Q. But, anyhow, in December 1992 you left that camp?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. You told us also this morning what happened to you before your

21 arrival in Omarska, did you not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. These were exceptional events you had never experienced before and in

24 1992 you were about 22, were you not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3909

1 Q. Did you have any opportunity to share all these terrible experiences

2 with others, like relatives or friends?

3 A. I did not understand the second part of your question.

4 Q. Did you have any opportunity to share all these terrible experiences

5 with others, talking about it with your relatives or talking about it

6 with your friends?

7 A. No, never.

8 Q. I take it -----

9 A. I was trying to forget it, to erase it, not to think about it. I

10 talked very little about it, hardly with anyone. I would still

11 probably not talk about it if I were not here. It is not something

12 that I care about to remember that camp and all those crimes that took

13 place there. I do not want ever to remember it, and after all this I

14 shall try to forget it, not to recollect it, not to remember those

15 events and everything that happened.

16 Q. I understand, Mr. Kenjar, that you are a little bit hesitant to share

17 your experiences with others, but I take it that by not talking about

18 it you may have been interested in reports about those camps and films

19 so your suffering was acknowledged because others reported about it?

20 A. No. When I happened to hear some stories about those camps, I think

21 it would remind me of it so that I avoided any contact with people who

22 talked about that camp. I avoided those talks.

23 Q. You may have seen reports on television or even films about those

24 camps. Have you seen those reports or have you ever seen those films

25 that recognised those sufferings?

Page 3910

1 A. No. No, no. I avoided always to watch these events, since I had

2 been through that all. I simply did not want to watch it and be

3 reminded of them, of those horrors. I wanted to wipe it out from my

4 memory. I do not want to be reminded of this.

5 Q. Have you ever heard about the Monika Gras film on Omarska camp?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Knowing Tadic well, as you said, Mr. Kenjar, you must have seen his

8 pictures in newspapers, magazines, on television, when he was arrested

9 up to the broadcasting of this trial, have you not?

10 A. Yes, I saw it on television.

11 Q. Did you discuss with others how Tadic looks and how he walks?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you see other witnesses at the hotel where you stay now for this

14 trial?

15 A. Yes, I saw them.

16 Q. Mr. Kenjar, in your evidence you told us about an incident at the

17 Orthodox church in Kozarac, did you not?

18 A. Yes, I mentioned it.

19 Q. You told us that you heard about the incident and that you looked it

20 up in the log book at the Kozarac police station, is that right?

21 A. Yes, and that would be an incident which would be noted down in that

22 log book. It was not -- it was a report of what happened then and who

23 went out to investigate it.

24 Q. When did you hear about that incident before you looked it up?

25 A. I heard about it afterwards, afterwards, and then I leafed the log

Page 3911

1 book later on in the evening when I was along while others were

2 asleep.

3 Q. What do you know mean by "afterwards"? Could you give us a month?

4 A. No, no, no, later that night. That night while I was on duty in

5 front of the police station, I spent one hour outside and one hour

6 inside, and during that hour that I spent inside I leafed through the

7 books that were there.

8 Q. I am not referring to the books, Mr. Kenjar, I am referring to the

9 moment you heard about the story. Could you give us a date of that

10 moment when you heard about that incident before you looked it up in

11 the log book?

12 A. I do not remember that at all, the date I do not remember.

13 Q. Could you tell us the month you heard about that incident?

14 A. I cannot. I know it was summer, summer time.

15 Q. Was that long or shortly before the incident, the attack on Kozarac I

16 mean?

17 A. I think a short time, I think so.

18 Q. Who told you about it?

19 A. A friend of mine. There was talk about it.

20 Q. Who was that friend?

21 A. Saban Jaskic.

22 Q. Why did he tell it to you?

23 A. Well, we were having a conversation about it and he mentioned that it

24 was something in this regard, but he did not tell me a lot. He did

25 not dare say more because that book was top secret, I mean, what was

Page 3912

1 noted down in it.

2 Q. I am not referring to the book, Mr. Kenjar. I am referring to the

3 moment that you were told. Did he tell you why he told you?

4 A. Something as we were talking, I cannot really remember what we were

5 talking about, and he mentioned it, to verify it later, for me to

6 verify it later, to see whether it was true, to look in the book, in

7 the log book, to see what was going on. I was interested in what was

8 noted down there several times.

9 Q. Did your friend witness the events himself?

10 A. I do not think so but maybe yes, I do not know.

11 Q. So he told you what he was told?

12 A. Yes, he was simply telling me about it.

13 Q. When did you look it up in the log book, the same day or later?

14 A. Later, later.

15 Q. When was that?

16 A. In the evening.

17 Q. The same day?

18 A. Sorry?

19 Q. Was that on the same day?

20 A. No, no, it was later.

21 Q. Was that the next day or the same day that you were told about that

22 incident?

23 A. No, it was later on, sometime had elapsed between.

24 Q. At what time did you hear about the incident from your friend?

25 A. I heard about it sometime before I looked up the book.

Page 3913

1 Q. I understand. Could you give us a time? Was it in the morning, in

2 the afternoon or in the evening that you heard about the story from

3 your friend?

4 A. I believe it was evening.

5 Q. Did you look in the log book the same evening or the evening of the

6 next day?

7 MR. TIEGER: Objection. Asked and answered at least twice.

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I did not get an answer.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not think you have got an answer yet. May I

10 help you?


12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: See if we can at least get it straight. A friend,

13 Mr. Jaskic, told you about this incident, is that correct, Mr. Kenjar?

14 A. Yes, it is. He mentioned something. He told me nothing in detail

15 what happened.

16 Q. Then after your friend told you about the incident did you look it up

17 in the log book to see if the incident had been recorded?

18 A. Yes, some time after that.

19 Q. How long after your friend told you about it did you look it up in

20 the log book?

21 A. I do not know. It could have been a week or even maybe two when it

22 occurred to me and I was alone, I was thinking and I remembered it.

23 Q. You were arrested on May 29th, was it, is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So it must have been before then, is that correct, that you looked it

Page 3914

1 up in the log book?

2 A. Yes, of course.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Go ahead, Mr. Wladimiroff.

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, your Honour. When you looked it up in the

5 log book, did you read the day of the entry in that log book?

6 A. No, I do not think so. I may have but I do not remember.

7 Q. Was it a short entry, just a few lines, or a longer entry, more

8 lines?

9 A. A short note -- nothing long.

10 Q. Was it on one page or was it on two pages, a part on one page and

11 another part on the other page?

12 A. It was a small portion of that book where one recorded all the

13 things. It is a notebook, 60 by 40, quite a largish book, and it was

14 a very small section, very small portion, of the book which recorded

15 that.

16 Q. So I take it it was not one page, was it not?

17 A. Yes, on one page and there were also other entries there, but these

18 entries were all very brief.

19 Q. Was it on the left page or on the right page, Mr. Kenjar?

20 A. I do not know. I think it was on the right one.

21 Q. If located where it was, you do not know the date of the entry. Do

22 you remember what was in the entry, what the entry said?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. So what did it say?

25 A. That Dusko Tadic was observed somewhere near the church with the

Page 3915

1 probable intent of setting the church on fire.

2 Q. That is all?

3 A. That is all.

4 Q. You are sure, nothing else?

5 A. Yes, I am sure -- well, there may have been something else but it was

6 very short and that was what was written down about who was there that

7 evening or day, that evening, whatever it was.

8 Q. Do you know who made the entry?

9 A. I do not.

10 Q. Have you seen any follow-up of that incident, that is, for example, a

11 report to the priest of that church?

12 A. No, there were no reports there. The reports were not entered in

13 that book. Reports were written separately and submitted to the

14 Commander, to Osme.

15 Q. Mr. Kenjar, in your evidence this morning you told that you were

16 arrested after the takeover of Kozarac in a place called Mostanica?

17 A. That is true, yes.

18 Q. What is that place, a village or a hamlet?

19 A. It is a hamlet, a village, or near the monastery in Mostanica, that

20 is where I was arrested.

21 Q. Have you ever been there before?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Does that village have streets?

24 A. I did not have a chance to get into it.

25 Q. Where were you arrested then?

Page 3916

1 A. At the very entrance of Mostanica, at a monastery near the cemetery.

2 Q. Was that on a street or on a road or in a field?

3 A. It was a road.

4 Q. It was a road?

5 A. Yes, a Macadam road.

6 Q. How far is Mostanica away from Bosanska Dubica?

7 A. I do not know, maybe about two or three kilometres, not far.

8 Q. So Mostanica is a different place to Bosanska Dubica, is that right?

9 A. Yes, something like that, but it is all Bosanska Dubica.

10 Q. Have you ever been before in Bosanska Dubica?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. Is Mostanica a village that is a part of Bosanska Dubica or is it, as

13 a matter of fact, a separate village?

14 A. It is something like a part of a village. Until then I was never

15 there, and when I was there it was not for a long time.

16 Q. Let us move to Omarska camp.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You told us that you were held in the hangar building and later on

19 you moved to a smaller room at the ground floor, do you remember that?

20 A. Yes, I remember that. First, I was in a room on the top floor and

21 then I was moved to the ground floor.

22 Q. A room, as you describe, near to the stairway. Later this morning

23 the Prosecutor told the Judges the number of that room before he asked

24 you about it. Do you remember the number the Prosecutor passed to the

25 Judges?

Page 3917

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was that number?

3 A. A17.

4 Q. Right. Your Honours, I will pass a plan of the model in front of you

5 without numbers. I would like the usher to show that plan to the

6 witness and pass a copy to the Prosecutor. It is, as a matter of

7 fact, a copy of 130A without numbers. I have another copy, your

8 Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is the number? Defence Exhibit what for

10 identification?

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: D23. Would you please look at that plan and then ---

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- put it on the Elmo on your right hand, please? Mr. Bos will

14 assist you. Could we have the whole plan on the monitor, please?

15 Thank you. Mr. Kenjar, could you point out on the Elmo on your right

16 hand your room on that plan?

17 A. Yes. (The witness indicated on the plan) This one.

18 Q. Right. Could you write a "K" in that room on that plan with a pen?

19 A. Yes. (The witness indicated on the plan).

20 Q. Thank you. Just a while ago, Mr. Kenjar, you were shown an exhibit

21 that showed the name of Jasko on the wall. Do you remember that?

22 A. I remember it.

23 Q. You told us that you wrote the date of 18th June on that wall, did

24 you not?

25 A. Yes, that is true.

Page 3918

1 Q. You told us that you wrote that date 18th June one hour after the

2 event, is that true?

3 A. It is true.

4 Q. So I take it that the event you were referring to took place on 18th

5 June, did it not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were referring to what you heard, screaming and all that, and

8 what you saw that day, that is, Dusko Tadic as you testified, is that

9 correct?

10 A. Would you please repeat the question?

11 Q. When you were referring to the incident, you were referring to the

12 incident related to Jasko Hrnic, is that correct, what you heard?

13 A. Yes, correct.

14 Q. And that was also the same day you saw Dusko Tadic, was it not?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. The Prosecutor asked you if you had seen Dusko Tadic in Omarska on

17 June 16th 1992, you confirmed -----

18 MR. TIEGER: Objection. That question was not asked.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff?

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We may look into our notes again. As far as I noted it

21 down, the date was put to the witness and the witness confirmed.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I must admit, I do not recall. I will confer with

23 the other Judges. I recall him saying that he saw him in the hallway

24 outside of room A17.

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is correct and, as a matter of fact, the

Page 3919

1 Prosecution suggested the date to the witness and the witness simply

2 confirmed.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are saying that was June 16th?

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That was June 16th.

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: As a matter of fact, your Honour, we might rephrase it,

6 if it takes too long to track down.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I was going to attempt to find out if we could

8 locate that, the question, to determine what date it was. I then

9 wanted to ask you how important it was and then ask you how we might

10 talk about the importance ---

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I am quite satisfied, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- outside the presence of the witness, if you wish,

13 or however you want to handle it.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We may rephrase the question to avoid problems.


16 MR. WLADIMIROFF (To the witness): Mr. Kenjar, again that date on the

17 wall, 18th June, as you just testified a minute ago, that was the day

18 on which the event took place, the date you also saw Dusko Tadic, is

19 that correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. So if any other date might have been put to you, that other date

22 could not be right, is that right?

23 A. No, I think that that is the date that is the correct one, that when

24 I was writing it down, I asked somebody of the people who were there

25 around me for that date. I asked them what date it was today.

Page 3920

1 Q. Thank you. Let us see what you saw on that day. You told us this

2 morning that you saw Tadic while you were in the hallway, is that

3 right?

4 A. That is right.

5 Q. Am I right then that you were not in your room?

6 A. That is right. I was not there. When I saw him I was not in the

7 room.

8 Q. Why were you in the hallway?

9 A. I was going to the toilet.

10 Q. How far did you get on your way to the toilet before you returned?

11 A. Behind those cabinets that were there.

12 Q. Did you need any permission to leave your room?

13 A. No, at that time the movement was permitted. We could move around.

14 Q. Was there anyone standing at the doorway of your room to guard that

15 room?

16 A. How do you think -- what do you mean, was there somebody armed who

17 was there or somebody from our own?

18 Q. Was there a guard, not someone of your own, standing at the door

19 guarding that room or standing outside to guard that room?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you simply pass that person without explaining what you were

22 going to do?

23 A. Yes, I could.

24 Q. So you could simply walk out of your room and go as you please?

25 A. Yes, to the toilet and back. That part of the hangar, all the rooms

Page 3921

1 that were upstairs, I could not go up there and you could not -- you

2 had to ask and you could go to the toilet sometimes, sometimes you

3 could not. It depends on the shift, what shift it was, and how, what

4 their mood was. It depended on their mood. Sometimes they would lock

5 us up in a room, they would not permit us to go to the toilet or

6 water. They would not allow anything. We had to be silent. We could

7 not even talk or anything.

8 Q. Who was standing outside the door on June 18th when you were leaving

9 the room going for the toilet?

10 A. You mean from the guards?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. I do not remember who it was from the guards.

13 Q. Do you know whose shift it was?

14 A. No, I cannot remember that.

15 Q. Do you remember whether he gave you permission or not?

16 A. The others were going out, so I went out too. I did not ask for any

17 permission.

18 Q. Did you leave the room by yourself, alone or were you together with

19 someone else?

20 A. I went there alone.

21 Q. What was approximately the time you left that room for the toilet?

22 A. Approximately, one hour, maybe half an hour, before everything that

23 occurred.

24 Q. I understand, but could you tell us the time?

25 A. I cannot estimate. Maybe it was one hour or maybe it was half an

Page 3922

1 hour, somewhere around there.

2 Q. How did you know the time? You did not have a watch, did you?

3 A. Approximately I knew. I knew -- after it was all over I asked what

4 time it was and somebody said it was around 6.00 when the incident was

5 over with Jasko and Emir. So that it was around 6 o'clock and so I

6 thought that it could be an hour or half an hour before that.

7 Q. Coming out of your room you walked into the hall and then, as you

8 testified this morning, you saw Tadic, did you not?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was he alone or was he with others?

11 A. He was alone.

12 Q. Just standing by himself, no one else you could see?

13 A. He was moving, he was coming from the direction of that door that

14 were behind, behind his back.

15 Q. What kind of door was that?

16 A. The doors over there. The big garage door.

17 Q. Was that door open or closed?

18 A. The door was open.

19 Q. Could you please get yourself a pencil again, if there is one there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you write down on that plan next to you where you indicated the

22 "K" how you left the room, just drawing on that original map on the

23 right of you ---

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- on that machine, write down how you walked and where you stopped?

Page 3923

1 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).

2 Q. OK. Could you indicate where you saw Dusko Tadic on that map with a

3 "T"?

4 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).

5 Q. Could you also indicate with a "W" where the toilet is?

6 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. I am sorry, I made a mistake. The toilet was next to those troughs.

9 Q. You put there a "W" and a "2" behind it, "W" and then a "2"? No,

10 just leave it there. Thank you. You also told us this morning that

11 you saw the person you called Dusko Tadic in uniform. You remember

12 that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You had been with the police, had you not, as a reserve policeman

15 before the conflict?

16 A. Repeat the question?

17 Q. You had been with the police as a reserve policeman before the

18 incident, had you not?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. So I take it you know the difference between a police uniform and a

21 military uniform?

22 A. Yes, I know.

23 Q. What kind of uniform did Dusko Tadic wear that day?

24 A. The camouflage military uniform.

25 Q. Could you tell us the colours of that uniform?

Page 3924

1 A. The camouflage uniform, one more time.

2 Q. But one more time again for my part, can you tell us the colours of

3 that uniform, of that camouflage uniform?

4 A. Those are mixed in green, blue, all kinds of colours, mixed in.

5 Q. Have you ever seen a police uniform of mixed colours in blue and

6 grey, of a camouflage type?

7 A. Yes, I have.

8 Q. Did this person you called Dusko Tadic wear such a uniform in grey

9 and blue or in those different colours you just described before?

10 A. No, the one I have described before, the military uniform.

11 Q. Have you ever seen Dusko Tadic in such a uniform before?

12 A. No.

13 Q. This morning you also told us that Tadic had a beard, a growth of a

14 few days?

15 A. Yes, rather grown in.

16 Q. Have you ever seen Dusko Tadic with such a beard before?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Mr. Kenjar, you told us about the prisoners that were called from

19 their rooms and you told us that, first of all, Emir Karabasic was

20 called. Do you remember that?

21 A. Yes, I remember that.

22 Q. Where was Emir Karabasic when he was called?

23 A. He was on the top floor, I believe, in that room on that floor above

24 us.

25 Q. If you leave your room, the room you just indicated to us on the

Page 3925

1 plan, was there a door or was there not?

2 A. At the exit of my room where I was?

3 Q. Yes. Was there a door?

4 A. Yes, there was a door at the exit where you left the room.

5 Q. Was that door usually open or closed?

6 A. Sometimes it was open and sometimes it was closed. It depended. In

7 the evening it would be closed.

8 Q. What did it depend on? What was the reason why the door was closed

9 and when was the door open? What was the policy here?

10 A. It depended on the shift that was outside there. It depended on the

11 guards who were there. When something went on in the corridor, then

12 the door would be closed.

13 Q. When you went to the toilet nothing was going on in the hall, so I

14 take it the door was open, was it not?

15 A. You mean when I saw Mr. Tadic?

16 Q. That is right.

17 A. Nothing was going on. It was -- all was quiet, everything was quiet.

18 Q. When you heard Emir Karabasic called, there was something going on on

19 the first floor, was there not?

20 A. Nothing was going on.

21 Q. So, what do you say, the door was open or closed, the door to your

22 room?

23 A. It was closed then.

24 Q. Just imagine yourself again walking out of your door walking to the

25 stairs to the first floor. Are there doors to the stairway?

Page 3926

1 A. Yes, there was this door next to us which was a glass door painted

2 red which was also closed at night and sometimes it was open.

3 Q. So you had to open that door before you could enter the stairway, did

4 you not?

5 A. Yes, it was mostly open but sometimes it was closed. It depended on

6 the shift there.

7 Q. Was there the same policy, when incidents it was closed and otherwise

8 it might be open?

9 A. It did happen.

10 Q. On the stairway coming to the first floor, were there doors too or

11 were there not?

12 A. No, there was one before, while we were still in this room upstairs,

13 there were guards there, but afterwards they all came down to that

14 hangar, and in that hangar there were guards, so that on the staircase

15 there were no guards at all.

16 Q. Have you any knowledge of the policy on the first floor, as far as

17 doors are involved, that is, doors closed or doors open?

18 A. No, I have already said it -- I am repeating -- it depended on the

19 shift that was there. Sometimes it was open, sometimes it was closed,

20 and I passed there several times, I went out and the door was closed

21 sometimes.

22 Q. Right. So actually what did you hear when you say, "I heard Emir

23 Karabasic called"?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. What did you hear? Can you repeat it for us? Can you tell us what

Page 3927

1 you heard?

2 A. I heard Emir Karabasic being called out.

3 Q. So you in your room on the ground floor heard what was said in front

4 of the room of Emir Karabasic on the first floor, that is what you

5 tell us, do you not?

6 A. I was in the room then and in the room I heard Emir Karabasic called

7 out, not in front of my room.

8 Q. Later on you were asked by the Prosecution about Jasko Hrnic and you

9 told us that he was called out too but he was in your room, was he

10 not?

11 A. Could you repeat it, please?

12 Q. Later on you were asked about Jasko Hrnic. He was called too, but he

13 was in your room, was he not?

14 A. Nobody asked me anything. They were looking for Jasko Hrnic and

15 nobody asked me anything.

16 Q. I said the Prosecution asked you today about Jasko Hrnic, and then

17 you told that he was called out of his room too?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. Then you were asked if you heard about others called out of the room

20 and then you said, "I did not hear others called". Do you remember

21 that?

22 A. I do not. They were calling out, they called out Eno Alic.

23 Q. Right. Later on, indeed, you told the Prosecution after he asked you

24 that Enver Alic was called too, that is correct, but do you remember

25 that you told him first that you did not remember that, that you did

Page 3928

1 not hear others called out?

2 A. Before that I did not hear any others. I heard those three being

3 called out.

4 Q. Tell us then, where was Enver Alic, in which room?

5 A. In that same room.

6 Q. The same room what?

7 A. With Emir Karabasic.

8 Q. So on the first floor too, right?

9 A. That is right.

10 Q. He was called, as I understand ---

11 A. Right.

12 Q. -- after Emir Karabasic was called and after Jasko Hrnic was called,

13 is that correct?

14 A. Yes, he was called out after Emir Karabasic and Jasko Hrnic, Enver

15 Alic was called out too.

16 Q. When Emir Karabasic was called, did you hear anything happen after

17 that?

18 A. I did. I did.

19 Q. Did you think that an incident was going on then?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When Jasko Hrnic was called from your room, I suppose you thought

22 that it got worse?

23 A. Yes. It was like that all the time -- terrible, abnormal.

24 Q. So am I right to think that there was no doubt that your door must

25 have been closed, the door of your room, as well as the door on the

Page 3929

1 first floor because that was the policy, was it not?

2 A. The door to our room was closed until they called out Jasko. Until

3 they came to that door and then they opened the door and called out

4 Jasko, and Jasko went out and the door closed again.

5 Q. From your spot in the room you could not see the door, you could not

6 see through the door into the hallway, is that right?

7 A. I could not see. I saw the door when it was closed the first time.

8 When it was opened, one could feel by the sound that the door was

9 opening, and when Jasko was called out -- was called out to come out.

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No further questions, your Honour.


12 Re-examined by MR. TIEGER

13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Kenjar, was the room behind the

14 glass door which led to the stairway filled with prisoners?

15 A. Yes, it was full up.

16 Q. What about the stairs themselves, did prisoners fill those?

17 A. They were also full and there were one or two sitting or standing on

18 each one of the stairs. Some perhaps could even lie down on the

19 stairs.

20 Q. Do you remember whether or not there were lockers in that room?

21 A. Yes, at the entrance, at the entrance to the stairway, there were

22 cupboards, lockers on both sides. To the left and to the right there

23 were lockers there.

24 Q. Were there prisoners on those lockers?

25 A. Yes, there were, one or two -- as many as could fit in.

Page 3930

1 Q. When guards or soldiers wanted to call out prisoners who were

2 upstairs, do you know whether or not they went into the room and

3 through the prisoners and up the stairs to call those people out or

4 call them out from the ground floor?

5 A. No, they called out at the entrance door, and then it was transmitted

6 by word of mouth.

7 Q. Let me ask you something I did not ask you earlier. Do you see Dule

8 Tadic in court today?

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I object, your Honour. It does not arise from the

10 cross-examination.


12 MR. TIEGER: First of all, your Honour, if it is a matter of reopening, I

13 will. Secondly, the question of who he saw was raised.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, the question of who he saw was

15 raised. That is for sure. You asked him whether he saw Mr. Tadic,

16 where he saw him, whether it was on 16th that Mr. Kenjar wrote the

17 name, wrote the date, rather, regarding Mr. Hrnic and when was that in

18 comparison to when he saw Mr. Tadic. That is for sure.

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Absolutely, your Honour, as far as connected to a date

20 but I did not raise the ID issue.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will overrule your objection, Mr. Wladimiroff.

22 Mr. Tieger?

23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. Kenjar, again

24 do you see Dule Tadic here in court today?

25 A. Yes, of course.

Page 3931

1 Q. Can you point out where he is, please, and tell us what he is

2 wearing?

3 A. There. A green suit.

4 Q. Thank you. May the record reflect the identification of the accused?

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. The record will reflect that the witness

6 identified the accused.

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Nothing further.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff?

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Nothing arises, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Judge Stephen?

11 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, I would like to ask you a couple of questions

12 about reserve police. What qualified you to be a reserve policeman?

13 Were you selected in some way?

14 A. I do not know. I do not know how it all went. I did not have any

15 orders in case of war. I do not know in the army. I was with the blue

16 ones, with the police.

17 Q. Were you particularly trained as a reserve police? I ask these

18 questions because we have heard a lot about reserve policemen, you

19 see? It is not particularly you that I am concerned with. Did you

20 undergo some training?

21 A. No.

22 Q. It was a paid occupation?

23 A. It was paid, but I never received any salary because there were no

24 salaries.

25 Q. For how long were you a reserve policeman?

Page 3932

1 A. Oh, for about five or six months.

2 Q. What uniform did you wear as a reserve policeman? Was it the same

3 uniform as the regular police?

4 A. No, we had winter uniforms.

5 Q. Which was different from the regular police?

6 A. Yes, well, it was similar. I mean, regular police also had the same

7 kind of uniforms, except that we had winter uniforms on.

8 Q. What were your powers? Were your powers of arrest, for instance, the

9 same as those of the regular police?

10 A. No.

11 Q. In what way were they different?

12 A. Well, if we noticed something or found something or anyone, we were

13 supposed to call the police station in Kozarac, to some active duty

14 policemen who were there and then they would proceed with the

15 whatever.

16 Q. Apart from your powers, what were your duties? Did you have specific

17 times each day when you had to serve?

18 A. Yes, we had shifts, one, two and three. First, for the first two

19 days, the first shift from 6.00 to 3.00, I believe, and then the

20 second shift and then the third one.

21 Q. Was the role of reserve policeman one that was specially created for

22 the emergency situation in former Yugoslavia or had there always been

23 reserve policemen?

24 A. There always have been, but they were seldom activated, only in some

25 extraordinary situations.

Page 3933

1 Q. Therefore, during the months that you were a reserve policeman, that

2 was during a time which needed the activation of reserve police, was

3 it?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have just a few questions, some of them related to

7 the questions that Judge Stephen just asked. Then, I gather, Mr.

8 Kenjar, you worked one of these shifts as a reserve police officer for

9 five to six months, is that correct?

10 A. Yes, there was five or six.

11 Q. So you did not then continue to work as a carpenter during this

12 period of time?

13 A. I worked.

14 Q. Did you have to report to the police station in Kozarac when you were

15 on duty?

16 A. Yes, I had to do it all.

17 Q. You would report to the police headquarters in Kozarac, is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, yes, and I worked. I never was absent from my work.

20 Q. Did you actually work at the police office in Kozarac? Was that your

21 assignment?

22 A. I was in front of the police station taking care of the safety of the

23 police station in Kozarac.

24 Q. So your duties were to stay outside the police station in Kozarac for

25 this five to six months, is that correct?

Page 3934

1 A. No, it was -- the time was shorter.

2 Q. Shorter? Shorter than five to six months?

3 A. Yes, I was not there all the time. I spent a shorter period of time

4 in front of that police station. It was only that I was there from

5 time to time.

6 Q. Did you ever work inside the police office or police station?

7 A. No, except during breaks when I would be -- well, yes, I spent one

8 hour outside and then one hour inside.

9 Q. What was the name of this book that you saw the notation regarding

10 the incident at the Serbian Orthodox church?

11 A. It is a log book, it is called Knjiga Prijava. It was a large book

12 that was always there on the table by the telephone.

13 Q. Why do you say it was top secret?

14 A. Because there were all sorts of records in there of various

15 complaints in order to preserve the identity of the guilty party or,

16 rather, of the plaintiff, in order to preserve the identity of the

17 person who, whatever, filed a complaint or whatever. It was secret.

18 Q. Was there a particular person responsible for making entries in this

19 book?

20 A. Well, the person on duty in the police station, he was the one who

21 took down those notes and they also worked in three shifts.

22 Q. So whoever was on duty for that particular shift was responsible for

23 making the entries regarding potential criminal incidents, is that

24 correct?

25 A. Quite so.

Page 3935

1 Q. When was the last time you saw that book?

2 A. I saw it during the war.

3 Q. After you left Omarska?

4 A. No. Before Omarska, before my arrest.

5 Q. Do you know what has happened to that book?

6 A. It used to be on the table.

7 Q. You do not know where it is now, do you?

8 A. No, I do not know. I do not know.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, do you have additional questions?

10 MR. TIEGER: Just one, your Honour.

11 Further re-examined by MR. TIEGER

12 Q. The other part of your duties with the reserve police involved

13 traffic control?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. TIEGER: That is all I wanted to clarify.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff?

17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Again nothing arises, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Is there any objection to Mr. Kenjar

19 being permanently excused, Mr. Wladimiroff?

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kenjar, you are permanently excused. That means

22 that you may leave and you are free to leave at this time. Thank you

23 very much for coming.

24 THE WITNESS: Not at all.

25 (The witness withdrew)

Page 3936

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess now for 20 minutes. Unless

2 there is a matter we can consider, we would rather start with the

3 witness when we return. Very good. We will stand in recess for 20

4 minutes.

5 (3.54 p.m.

6 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

7 (4.15 p.m.)

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you call the next witness, please?

9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. The next witness is Mehmed Alic.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, do you wish to offer into evidence

11 Defence Exhibit 23?

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes. You are perfectly right, your Honour. I forgot to

13 tender it. I may tender it, if you please, as marked.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. Any objection to Defence 23?

15 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are thinking that it is too late now because the

17 witness has gone though! This is just clean up, if I say so.

18 MR. TIEGER: If you say so.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So is there any objection?

20 MR. TIEGER: No, there is not.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Defence Exhibit 23 will be admitted. I notice

22 there has been a change in the order for the witnesses. Is that

23 correct? Am I reading the change in the order correctly?

24 MR. TIEGER: That is correct, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Defence knows that? Very good. Sir, would you

Page 3937

1 please take the oath that is before you?

2 Mehmed Alic, called

3 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

4 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

5 (The witness was sworn)

6 Examined by MR. TIEGER

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may begin.

8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Sir, will you first state your name,

9 please?

10 A. Alic Mehmed, son of Aga.

11 Q. Mr. Alic in what year were you born?

12 A. 27th March 1923.

13 Q. Where were you born?

14 A. In the village of Kamicani, in the municipality of Prijedor.

15 Q. Did you live there your whole life until the conflict in 1992?

16 A. Yes, until 1992 we lived there all the time.

17 Q. Was is your nationality?

18 A. Muslim.

19 Q. What was your occupation in Kam icani?

20 A. I was a farmer and over time I also worked with a forest. I was doing

21 forestry.

22 Q. Did you raise a family in Kamicani?

23 A. Yes, I had a wife and six children, spouse.

24 Q. What were their names?

25 A. First, there was Hatemina, Enver, Envera, Sedika, Ekrem and Nasiha.

Page 3938

1 Q. The translation did not come out clearly. One of your sons' names

2 was Enver and your daughter's name was Envera, is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was Ekrem's nickname?

5 A. "Aka".

6 Q. It is my fault. What was Enver's nickname?

7 A. "Eno".

8 Q. In what years were Enver and Ekrem born?

9 A. Enver was born in 1948 and Ekrem in 1955.

10 Q. What were their occupations?

11 A. They were both drivers, one, Enver, worked in Croatia in a company

12 and the other one worked with me because I had a tractor and I had a

13 truck and I also had horses and so .....

14 Q. Mr. Alic, did you know the Tadic family?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know Dule Tadic?

17 A. Yes, we know him.

18 Q. Did you know his father?

19 A. Yes, I have.

20 Q. Were the two of you of approximately the same generation?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was his father's name? If you do not recall, that is fine.

23 A. I know, but now, right now, it has just slipped.

24 Q. I am sure you are a bit nervous, I understand. How well did the two

25 of you get along, Dule Tadic's father and yourself?

Page 3939

1 A. Well, he knew me quite well. When I went to the forest he used to,

2 in front of his house, he would lean against the fence and if I am

3 going there in the morning, he would say, "Good morning", and he said,

4 "How are you?" and I always had good horses, so he would say, "Nice

5 horses" and he said, "Oh, you are hard working".

6 Q. Was that typical of relations between Serbs and Muslims during that

7 time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were either of your sons about the same age as Dule Tadic?

10 A. Yes, Ekrem was born in 55, my Ekrem.

11 Q. Did Ekrem or Enver know Dule?

12 A. Both knew him. Of course, they all would drink together at the same

13 table and went to music and all kinds of places.

14 Q. Have you known Dule Tadic ever since he was a child?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I would like to ask you now about some of the things that happened

17 after the attack on Kozarac. First of all, do you recall when that

18 began?

19 A. The attack started on 24th May 1992.

20 Q. About what time of the day?

21 A. Around 1.00, 1.00 or 2.00.

22 Q. Where were you at that time?

23 A. I was at home in Kamicani.

24 Q. Who were you with?

25 A. I was there with my wife and my daughter and my granddaughters,

Page 3940

1 grandchildren.

2 Q. After the outbreak of the attack, did you and the members of your

3 family go to Mujici?

4 A. We went first to Softici.

5 Q. After that did you go on to Mujici?

6 A. Then to Mujici.

7 Q. Did you remain in Mujici until May 26th?

8 A. Until May 26th, in the morning.

9 Q. On that day in the morning did you and the other members of your

10 family go with other ----

11 A. We started towards Kozarac.

12 Q. Was that in order to surrender to Serb forces?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How did you travel to Kozarac?

15 A. The older people and the children, we took tractors and we would put

16 on the older people and children and women and we would go in a

17 tractor to Kozarac.

18 Q. Did the younger and stronger go on foot?

19 A. The younger and the stronger went on foot.

20 Q. When you reached Kozarac, did you and the other elderly people get

21 off the tractors?

22 A. Yes, we did.

23 Q. Did columns of people form in Kozarac to move through the town for

24 the purpose of surrendering?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3941

1 Q. Was that going down Marsala Tita Street?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In Kozarac were you put on a bus?

4 A. In Krkici, down at Krkici, we, elderly, and the children and women,

5 we got on the bus.

6 Q. Was that one bus?

7 A. Yes, we were in the first bus and then I was not really looking any

8 more. There was one bus there at that time and then afterwards others

9 came, but I was in the first one.

10 Q. Is Krkici where the junction where the old road meets Marsala Tita?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did the bus on which you and the other elderly were put proceed with

13 the column of people on foot to surrender?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In which direction was the column going?

16 A. It went towards Prijedor.

17 Q. Did the column stop at some point?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where was that?

20 A. In Susici near Limenka.

21 Q. That is about how far from central Kozarac?

22 A. Well, some, around one-and-a-half to two kilometres until the

23 beginning of Kozarusa and then somewhere around two kilometres.

24 Q. About what time of the day was it that you stopped at or near

25 Limenka?

Page 3942

1 A. I think around 10 o'clock, maybe 10.30, somewhere around there, the

2 way I can remember as we started off from Mujici.

3 Q. Were Serb forces there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What were those Serb forces wearing?

6 A. Well, they wore camouflage uniforms and they wore weapons, automatic

7 rifles, pistols, knives. There were some bombs as well, some

8 grenades.

9 Q. Were you and the other elderly people ordered off the bus?

10 A. Yes, we got off the bus.

11 Q. Where did you and the others wait after you got off the bus?

12 A. From the right-hand side, on the right of -- the bus came to a stop

13 and it stopped next to the asphalt.

14 Q. Did you and the other elderly people wait by the side of the road?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were the Serb forces separating Muslim men from women and children?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were some of the men being placed on buses?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Alic, as you waited by the side of the road there at Limenka did

21 you see Dule Tadic?

22 A. Yes, I saw Dule Tadic.

23 Q. Where was he when you saw him?

24 A. He was passing by next to, by the bus from the left side. I saw Milos

25 Balte and some others, those policemen that I knew from the earlier

Page 3943

1 years.

2 Q. Do you recall what Dule was wearing that day?

3 A. Well, he had a camouflage uniform. They all had camouflage. Well,

4 maybe some of the regular policemen had those police uniforms, but all

5 the rest had camouflage uniforms.

6 Q. Were you and the other elderly people eventually put back on the same

7 bus?

8 A. Yes, the same bus, we were put on the same bus.

9 Q. Where were you then taken?

10 A. To Trnopolje.

11 Q. At Trnopolje were the newly arrived people told that those who had

12 relatives or friends nearby could stay with them?

13 A. Yes, they were told that.

14 Q. Did you and the members of your family go to a nearby relative's or

15 friend's house?

16 A. Yes. The first house next to the camp, the east, Ahmed Balic was the

17 owner of the house.

18 Q. About how many people were there?

19 A. It is a larger structure with -- he said that he had over 50 people

20 staying with him.

21 Q. Did it seem to you that that estimate was correct based upon the

22 number of people you saw at the house?

23 A. Well, I think that that is about the right number, maybe even more,

24 but it is true what he said.

25 Q. What was the nationality of those people who were at Mr. Balic's

Page 3944

1 house?

2 A. Muslims.

3 Q. Was there much food available?

4 A. There was food, but there was not enough. You know, he is a retiree.

5 He did not have as much of that, what he had.

6 Q. Did you attempt to obtain a certificate from the Serbian Red Cross

7 which permitted you to leave the area in order to look for food?

8 A. Yes, I did get a certificate from Donlagici.

9 Q. Was Donlagici part of the Kamicani commune?

10 A. Yes, they were.

11 Q. Did that certificate permit to you go to a part of Kamicani then?

12 A. Only to Donlagici.

13 Q. Was that the part of Kamicani in which your house was located?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Over the next two weeks, approximately, did you, nevertheless, go to

16 your house in Kamicani in order to search for food?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see cleansing taking place in the area of your home?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was happening there?

21 A. They were burning the houses and people were being killed, the ones

22 who were left behind, the ones who were blind or old, and they were

23 saying, "We were not guilty, why should I go somewhere? I am not

24 guilty of anything", so those people got killed.

25 Q. Was there a Serbian checkpoint in the area of Kamicani which was

Page 3945

1 guarded by Serbian forces?

2 A. You mean a point? There was near the -- in Rodi Godina on the road

3 Prijedor/Banja Luka.

4 Q. Did you see any of the members of the Serbian forces who were manning

5 that point?

6 A. When I came to that point I was -- there were four Serbian soldiers

7 in a car who caught up with me. They stopped me. He opened the door

8 and he asked me, "Meho, where are you going?" I told him, "I am going

9 home to search for food for my children. My children are hungry".

10 Q. Were you discouraged from going there?

11 A. He told me, he said that they were cleansing up there, "It is not

12 safe, you, it is your initiative, but if you get caught you will get

13 killed". However, I started and he told me, "Don't go to the

14 checkpoint, they won't let you through", and this was about 30 metres

15 from where they caught up with me. He said, "There are things going

16 on up there".

17 I was looking and I saw Milenko Zigic there and Vinko Kusota,

18 Slavko Skondric, Milan Markovic and Milan's son-in-law, Gojko, and

19 some others that I did not know, but these people I knew because these

20 are my immediate neighbours. They are maybe 1.5 or two kilometres

21 from me. So them I know as well as I know myself.

22 Q. Were those persons armed and were they in uniform?

23 A. Everybody was in uniform, and wearing arms.

24 Q. What kind of arms?

25 A. Automatic weapons. It was all automatics. We have a saying, "They

Page 3946

1 were armed up to their teeth".

2 Q. You mentioned the name Vinko Kusota. How long had you known him?

3 A. I knew him from ever, but I knew him best since '70. Vinko Kusota,

4 he jumped off from a plum tree and he stabbed himself on a knife, and

5 I was carrying, I was driving some rocks nearby and so when I heard

6 screams I went over there and I saw the blood, and he was still a

7 child so I took him, I put him on my cart and dropped by my house. I

8 then took him to Kozarac, then to Prijedor. Then I found Drago

9 Konjovoda. I know him as myself, and he had a small red -- a yellow

10 Fiat which would take him to Banja Luka. So I gave him the money. I

11 said, "Please take him" so I know him as I know myself.

12 Q. Mr. Alic, on your last trip, the fourth trip, to look for food at

13 your house, were you stopped by Serb soldiers, seized and then taken

14 to Omarska?

15 A. Yes, they did.

16 Q. What date was that?

17 A. That was on 10th June.

18 Q. When you arrived in Omarska where were you first taken?

19 A. First, they put us on the pista -- no, first, they took us up to the

20 headquarters first, and up there they -- he went to the office. Then

21 they put us up against a wall. We had two fingers there and that is

22 how we stood there. There were three soldiers and they beat us.

23 Those Serb soldiers, they beat us and they abused us. Then that one

24 came back and said, "Go to pista and they will call you out and you

25 will go there to be interrogated".

Page 3947

1 Q. During the beating were you slapped in the face and kicked in the

2 groin?

3 A. Yes, at first I was slapped on the face, and then with a rifle butt

4 he hit me here and then he -- in the groin he kicked me because we had

5 to have our legs spread.

6 Q. Where were you held after that?

7 A. Then I was on the pista.

8 Q. How many days were you held in the pista?

9 A. I was there three nights and four days.

10 Q. After that where were you held?

11 A. In room 15.

12 Q. Did you remain in room 15, that is, did you remain held in room 15

13 until you were transferred to Manjaca?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When was that?

16 A. That was on 26th August when they took me to Manjaca.

17 Q. I am sorry, did you say that was 26th August? What date was it that

18 you were transferred to Manjaca?

19 A. 6th August. On 26th we returned from Manjaca.

20 Q. Mr. Alic, may I ask you how you would describe the general conditions

21 in Omarska during the time you were held there?

22 A. Why, the conditions that they were, I can hardly describe them, what

23 I have seen during my 73 years, in '42 I was in a camp, in 1945 I was

24 in a camp, but this camp, it is unimaginable. It is death of a camp,

25 not a camp. One thing is a camp, another is a death of a camp and I

Page 3948

1 cannot, I cannot imagine.

2 Q. Were prisoners regularly called out of rooms?

3 A. Yes, all the time.

4 Q. As far as you could tell, what happened to those prisoners?

5 A. As for us, as I know, there were people who were taken out and then

6 were beaten and beaten, and bring them in and he is dead. They just

7 bring him in and throw him into the room. There were people who never

8 even came back, who were called out and never returned and we -- to

9 this day we do not know what happened.

10 Q. Did you ever see the condition of prisoners who were held in the

11 white house?

12 A. Yes, I did, I did see. One night I saw when they took us out to have

13 a bath, he had a hose like this one. We were stripped naked from

14 room 15 and washed us with icy water, beating us. It was not really

15 washing us. It was beating us on the head and on the face, and I saw

16 there about 20 of them being taken from the white house, stripped of

17 their clothes. They did not look like humans. They looked like black

18 sheep or black horse, they were that black, and there was no way you

19 could tell a part of a body. I mean, they were so beaten up. When I

20 saw those people, I could not, I could not eat a piece of bread for

21 two days and I was hungry, but those people, they left such an

22 impression, I could not really -- I could never even think that people

23 could do this thing to other people.

24 Q. By the time you arrived in Ormaska, Mr. Alic, had you learned what

25 had happened to your sons, Ekrem and Enver, or where they were?

Page 3949

1 A. I heard about Ekrem while I was in Trnopolje, that Ekrem had been

2 killed in Kozara, and it was the Omladinsko Naselje on Kozara,

3 Benkovac, once upon a time it was called Srpski Benkovac and then

4 Omladinsko Naselje, a youth brigade settlement that my son and my

5 nephew had been killed there and so .....

6 Q. By the time you arrived in Omarska did you know where Enver was?

7 A. While I was on the pista I saw my Enver, when he passed by over me,

8 he flew by me. I knew that he was there in the camp. When I came to

9 the 15, somebody said, "Hey, Enver is calling to you. He is behind

10 that room 15", but he was in another room behind the door, iron door,

11 and we talked to each other. He asked me, "Where are the children,

12 where were you? Where did they get you?" and I tell him, well, so and

13 so. "I have heard that Eno had been killed and he says, "Father, yes"

14 or "no" and that was it and .....

15 Q. So your son, Eno, asked you what had happened to Ekrem and you had

16 to tell him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Alic, after you came to room 15, was there a day when you were

19 called from your room and ordered to fetch your son?

20 A. Yes, after, I think, after some four days or maybe five, I would not

21 be able to pin point it, they came to the door and said, "Alic Mehmed

22 nicknamed 'Meho', come out and find son Enver".

23 Q. Mr. Alic, before you were called out that day, on that particular

24 day, had you seen Dule Tadic in camp?

25 A. I saw Dule Tadic that day. When I went out to lunch and he was

Page 3950

1 sitting with Meakic on the west side of the restaurant.

2 Q. Where were you when you saw him?

3 A. I was at the top of the hangar. When time for lunch came, there was

4 always 30 people in the group and I was always the first one. I

5 always headed it, the first one, as we moved there in a column and

6 they always put me up front because I could not move very fast, my leg

7 hurts a little, and besides I am of an age, you know, so they always

8 said, "Come, Alic, you go first", so that I went first and I was at

9 the corner of the pista and the hangar.

10 Q. Mr. Alic, can I ask you to take the pointer which should be to your

11 right near that console? Perhaps Miss Sutherland can help you with

12 that. Keep your headphones on, but in a moment I will ask you to take

13 your headphones off, put on the headphones that they will give you at

14 this desk and then I will ask you to point out on the model where you

15 were and where Dule Tadic was when you saw him. So if you could

16 remove your headphones and step up there, sir?

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Will you be able to see, Mr. Wladimiroff, do you

18 think, or Mr. Kay?

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I will try.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. If need be, either you or Mr. Kay, whoever will

21 be handling cross-examination, may approach.

22 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Mr. Alic, can you first show us where Dule

23 Tadic and Meakic were when you saw them?

24 A. Dule Tadic was here and I was here.

25 Q. So you were at the corner of the hangar building?

Page 3951

1 A. Yes, at the corner.

2 Q. If I could ask you just once again to point out the corner where you

3 were?

4 A. Right here. We came out through this door, walked here, and that is

5 it.

6 Q. If you could point out again where Dule Tadic was, his approximate

7 position?

8 A. Dule Tadic here, at any rate from this side, from the west.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Alic. You may take your seat again. What was Dule

10 Tadic doing when you saw him?

11 A. Well, he was sitting with Meakic. They were talking, conversing.

12 Q. Do you recall what Mr. Tadic was wearing?

13 A. Camouflage clothes too. I saw him on a couple of occasions. He

14 always had camouflage clothes.

15 Q. Do you recall whether he was clean shaven or had a beard?

16 A. Oh, that, well, he was, what do I know, but with all this repression,

17 with all this hurry, I could not really, you know, how to tell you.

18 If you move your head a little, there is immediately a rifle butt

19 against your back, so it was better to look after one's back and not

20 to see everything, because in that war a man told me, "Don't see

21 everything and don't hear everything". That was '45, 1945.

22 Q. Did you see Dule Tadic on any other occasion in Omarska camp?

23 A. Yes, I did. Once again, I do not know how, I saw him on the east

24 side standing.

25 Q. On the other side of the pista?

Page 3952

1 A. Yes, on the other side of the pista, on the east side.

2 Q. Where were you or what were you doing when you saw him on that second

3 occasion?

4 A. That day too, I was going for lunch. I did not see him otherwise

5 because I never went anywhere. Only if I went to lunch I could see

6 someone otherwise because they did not take me anywhere.

7 Q. On both occasions were you able to look long enough to be absolutely

8 sure that it was Dule Tadic?

9 A. Why, it was always very quickly, but Dule Tadic is Dule Tadic. I

10 know him. There may be 10 people like this and I will say which one

11 is he, third, fourth, fifth or they may be moving in a column. I know

12 him. I know his build like myself. There is no question.

13 Q. First of all on this, how long after the time when you saw him with

14 Meakic was it that you saw him on the other side of the pista?

15 A. Why, about 20 days or so, what do I know? I do not know but I know

16 that some time had passed by, and I saw that Kobas without an arm and

17 I saw Meakic, that Drago, and I saw them there, a couple of people.

18 Q. I ask you to point out with the pointer where Dule Tadic was on that

19 second occasion you saw him. Perhaps you could extend it and you may

20 be able to reach or if you need to get up, please do.

21 A. He was here. This is the garage and there is a tap, a water tap, or

22 something like that. I poured it while I was on the pista. I came

23 there to get some water to drink and I know it quite well.

24 Q. On that first occasion when you saw Dule Tadic after lunch, did you

25 return back to room 15?

Page 3953

1 A. We did.

2 Q. Later that day did you hear the names of prisoners being called out

3 from their rooms?

4 A. That day I heard this one calling out, Karabasic Emir, Jasko Hrnic,

5 and some others were called out too.

6 Q. Did you know those two men, Emir Karabasic and Jasko Hrnic?

7 A. Sure I did. What do you mean? They were my sons' great friends,

8 colleagues, what do I know.

9 Q. Mr. Alic, do you remember hearing them call out the name of your son,

10 Enver?

11 A. Yes, I remember they called out my son, but they called out me, for

12 me to go and take my son out, to go and find him. He came to the

13 door, "Alic, please, Alic Mehmed called Meho, go and find your son"

14 and I came out.

15 Q. Mr. Alic, when you were first called out and an announcement was

16 first made, did you respond immediately?

17 A. I know -- I tried to dodge it, not to respond. So he shouted, "Alic"

18 once, he shouted "Alic" twice and the third time when he said, "Come

19 out for your mother, he is the oldest in the room, I will recognise

20 him, I will kill 20 men for him", but people told me, "Meho, come on,

21 don't be crazy. You have to go". So I went out. A soldier was

22 standing by the door holding an automatic rifle. I do not know that

23 lad, he was blond but I did not know him really much, and he hit me

24 with a rifle butt but not particularly well. I mean, one has to say

25 the truth. He did not really hit me properly.

Page 3954

1 So he told me, "Down the stairs" and I started down the

2 stairs. I went down one stairs and then another. He said, "To the

3 left", and I to the left, to the hangar. When I started in the

4 direction of the WC to the right, so I started down the hangar to the

5 right. On the right was the WC.

6 Q. Mr. Alic, how were you walking at that time? What position were you

7 in?

8 A. We had to have our hands up there, like this, and the head down. But

9 when I turned to the right I looked ahead of me and I saw Emir

10 Karabasic in front of me sitting on a table like this, his feet

11 dangling, and I saw he was bloody. When I drew nearer, I stopped for

12 about 10, 15 per cent, and I saw him being cut all over with a knife

13 and there were three soldiers to the right of him, in fact to the east

14 of him, and he was right by the wall and they were to the east -- not

15 to the east, to the north, towards the WC.

16 As the water was poured over him and he was shaking, evidently

17 he was stunned, and so they were trying to bring him to his senses

18 back. Then I jolted badly, but a soldier shouted, "So you know him,

19 well, you are going to know him, F your mother", and he put a knife, a

20 soldier's knife, right up here, and the one going, walking behind me,

21 hit me with a rifle butt here on the right side, in the kidneys, and

22 this one jerked his knife and hit me on the head with the flat side of

23 the knife, and then hit me here with the handle, and I still have a

24 scar where he hit me with a knife.

25 Q. Did you make an effort to see who those soldiers were?

Page 3955

1 A. Well, I thought I did, but I could not see since I had the knife

2 here. There is not a man who can look around if there is a knife at

3 his throat. Few people can do it and I am not -- I may be a man but I

4 did not have guts to look around and I could not see them, who they

5 were, what they were. But I do know that Dule Tadic was there and who

6 else, I do not know.

7 Q. Did the man who was escorting you direct you toward Enver's room?

8 A. Yes, I went along towards the door where my son, Enver, was.

9 Q. When you got to the room where the stairway upstairs is, were you

10 told to go upstairs and get your son?

11 A. When I came near that door the guard opened and said, "Go upstairs",

12 and the one who was following, who was escorting me, stayed there. So

13 I went up the stairs. How I walked, I do not know. I was, sorry, I

14 was lost. I knew where I was going, why I was going, what is

15 happening, what was happening, and I found my son and he was like me,

16 also shivering, "Son there, they say you have to come out". Then he

17 says to me, "Father, I am not here, and maybe I am", he said. "No, I

18 was told if we call you out once again, then you will be no more".

19 Eno, my Eno, put on, somebody gave him a vest or something, a leather

20 jacket, if they beat him so that it hurts him less.

21 He got ready. We started. When we came downstairs they

22 shouted, "Faster, faster". I was walking the first and Eno was

23 following me. When we came down to the hangar, this one was waiting

24 for me, another one was waiting for him, saying, "Why aren't you

25 coming out for your mother?" So we made a move few steps, and said,

Page 3956

1 "Lie down", and he went down on his stomach and with a right foot

2 here, he kicked him on the left side once, twice, and he cried out of

3 pain. You know that, how it is. I mean, he was a strong man, but -- I

4 came back to my senses. I started wailing, screaming. I wanted to

5 defend him somehow, to shield him, to ask them, but they told me, "Get

6 lost. Get him. We shall cut his throat too". Those two grabbed him

7 and he said to me, "Father, take care of my children, look after my

8 children".

9 I started to the left and on their right side I heard them

10 shouting, "Dule, brother, how have I wronged you? Why do you beat

11 me?" I heard them beating in the hangar. I passed that way towards

12 the pista and that one escorted me across the pista upstairs to the

13 office, left me in front of the door. He went inside and those there

14 mistreated me again at the door. One hit me, then he started off.

15 Then the other one shouted, "Leave him, let him be." He said,

16 "Comrade, Commander, I have taken Eno Alic out. What shall we do with

17 the old man?" He said, "Take him to the room from which you had taken

18 him out".

19 When I returned by the hangar the same way that I had come by,

20 I heard wails and screams, cries out, cries, and I started up the

21 stairs and I heard, he said, "This one's finished. I mean, mother,

22 what are you going to make Ustasha with now?" He opened the door to

23 me and I entered the room and they asked me, people asked me, "Meho,

24 what is it?" and I said, "Brothers, I have lost my other son. They

25 have killed my son". So that I -- I do not know what happened to me

Page 3957

1 then.

2 Q. Mr. Alic, did you ever see your son Enver alive after that day?

3 A. Never again from that day, never again.

4 Q. Mr. Alic, do you see Dule Tadic in court today?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you point him out, please, and tell us what he is wearing?

7 A. (Indicated).

8 Q. Can you tell us what you see him wearing, sir?

9 A. He has a green jacket and a tie, but I am not interested in him. A

10 criminal -- I am not interested in a criminal.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Alic, we have just asked to you identify Mr.

12 Tadic. Thank you.

13 MR. TIEGER: The record will reflect the identification, your Honour?

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The record will reflect that the witness has

15 identified the accused.

16 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

18 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

19 Q. Mr. Alic, would it be right to say that Dusko Tadic was someone that

20 you did not associate with in Kozarac because he was of a different

21 generation to you?

22 A. How do you mean?

23 Q. His father was more your generation and someone you would ---

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- have spent time with, rather than Dusko Tadic who was 30 years

Page 3958

1 younger than you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You had no common interests with him?

4 A. No, with Dule I had no relationship at all, only my sons did.

5 Q. Your ---

6 A. They were with him.

7 Q. -- sons being ---

8 A. And I knew him as a child.

9 Q. -- one of them certainly, approximately the same age, were his

10 generation?

11 A. Yes, my Ekrem was the same generation. They were peers. They were

12 born the same year.

13 Q. Yes. You had no business dealings with Dusko Tadic?

14 A. I had no business with him ever.

15 Q. There were many people in Kozarac with whom your sons were friendly

16 and they were popular people in Kozarac, is that right?

17 A. I think that they did, yes. They made no difference between Serbs

18 and Muslims and Croats. We had brotherhood and unity. That is how it

19 used to be until '92.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. That is what we had, and Dule Tadic, he grew up with them. I do not

22 know that he was ever -- or had any problems with Muslims. They were

23 ----

24 Q. Yes. You did not know that he had any such problems because he had

25 been popular with your sons as your sons were popular with the people

Page 3959

1 of different nationalities in Kozarac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When this day happened that there was the attack on Kozarac and there

4 was shelling, had you expected that to happen that day?

5 A. I personally did not. I did not reckon on it, I did not thought -- I

6 did not think that it would end, Serbs, our former neighbours like

7 Dule Tadic and Zigic and Vinko and such that they would do what has

8 been done. I was surprised because I was there from the former

9 Yugoslavia. I was 14 or 15. Then it was the NDH, and then it was

10 throughout the modern Yugoslavia, and I was just a hard working man, a

11 farmer. For me, Serbs were just like Muslims. I do not know what

12 they had, what their intentions they had with us, Muslims.

13 Q. Had you been aware of the ultimatums that had been issued from

14 Prijedor requesting the police in Kozarac to deliver up their weapons

15 and other Muslim people to deliver up their weapons? Were you aware

16 of what was happening just before the shelling took place?

17 A. You know, I cannot answer that question. I am not a politician. I

18 was never in politics, so I do not know anything. I am a farmer. I

19 worked in agriculture and I have nothing to tell this or that. I was

20 never a politician. I never was involved in politics. I was just

21 sewing corn and gardening when Serbs were getting ready. They were

22 preparing themselves. They were preparing themselves for this.

23 Q. On that day, 26th May, when you and many others left your homes in

24 that region to join the people who were moving through the Marsala

25 Tita Street, did you have any idea ---

Page 3960

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- about what was going to happen to you? Did you have any knowledge

3 at all of what any plans may be?

4 A. No, I did not know anything. I only knew that it was not going to be

5 good. They surrounded us and then they started burning down houses.

6 When the first shot was fired, the houses went up in flames and the

7 whole -- Kozarac was burned down and so now we do not .....

8 Q. When you came to that stage that you were with the other women,

9 children, men being separated, did you know what was going to happen

10 to you, where you were going to do go? Did you know what the plans

11 were?

12 A. I did not know anything.

13 Q. Did you ask any of those people who were around to say, "What is

14 happening? Do you know where I am going?"

15 A. No, I did not. I asked no questions. My wife was 75. I had a deaf,

16 mute daughter, two small grandchildren. I was still fighting for

17 them. I knew exactly what was going on, so I was just trying to save

18 them. So I do not know what I am supposed to demonstrate here.

19 Q. When you were put on that bus to go to Trnopolje, that was the first

20 bus, you said, that was at the particular place where the division was

21 happening, is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you remember who told you that you were going on to that bus?

24 A. I do not. A Serb soldier.

25 Q. How many Serb soldiers were there in this place near Limenka?

Page 3961

1 A. I could not count them. I do not think anybody could count them. I

2 do not think anybody dared count them.

3 Q. Were there army vehicles there or was it just soldiers on foot?

4 A. I saw military vehicles in Kozarac, but there was a lot of traffic

5 and there was a column of civilians. They were all on the move.

6 Q. When you say that you were put on the first bus that took you to

7 Trnopolje, were you then at the head of the column?

8 A. I think that, yes, ours was the first bus. I was in the first bus

9 from those civilians.

10 Q. Did you know if other people had been separated or moved on in this

11 way at this place before you arrived there? Was there anything that

12 indicated that to you?

13 A. I think that there were, but I do not know. I know what I

14 experienced and what I saw and for the rest, I cannot. I could not

15 really look around. I was watching my own family because at that time

16 I was 67.

17 Q. When you were at this place where the people were being put on to or

18 separated into various groups, how long did you stay there at this

19 place near Limenka? How long did that take?

20 A. I think between my place and the bus, it was about an hour. They

21 unloaded us, to look over our things. There are weapons, bayonets.

22 They went through our bags and .....

23 Q. Were these soldiers who were searching your bags?

24 A. Serb soldiers -- who else?

25 Q. Can you recollect what sort of uniform they were wearing?

Page 3962

1 A. Well, camouflage uniforms. They were all kinds. Maybe I saw 15, 20

2 of them, but there were 100 or 150. I was not put up there to watch

3 who was wearing what, what kind of a cap. I was a prisoner. I knew

4 that I was -- my freedom was taken away from me and then I was just to

5 bow my head and that was it.

6 Q. When you say you had to bow your head, do you mean that it could have

7 been dangerous for you to look around at these people?

8 A. Of course. You just could not call the person by their name, you

9 could not recognise him. You could not say, "Where are you,

10 neighbour?" because your head would be off.

11 Q. Was there then that fear of violence that you and other people were

12 aware of whilst you were being dealt with in this way?

13 A. Of course, and other people left and I do not know how many but .....

14 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is a convenient moment before I enter a new

15 topic.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

17 (5.30 p.m.)

18 (The court adjourned until the following day)