Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3963

1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T

2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER

4 Wednesday, 24th July 1996

5 (10.10 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you like to begin the

7 cross-examination as soon as we get someone to cross-examine?

8 MR. MEHMED ALIC, recalled.

9 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Alic, you are still under oath, do you

11 understand that, the same oath that you took yesterday? OK thank you.

12 Mr. Kay?

13 MR. KAY: Thank you. Mr. Alic, yesterday you told us that you saw Dusko

14 Tadic with a man called Meakic one day when you were on the pista and

15 you described him as being near the restaurant building?

16 A. [In translation]: Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember that?

18 A. Yes, I remember it.

19 Q. Was that an occasion again when you were going to lunch in that

20 building which had the restaurant?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You remember indicating where you were on the pista and indicating as

23 well where Mr. Tadic was with the man called Meakic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you know then that Meakic was the Commander of the camp at

Page 3964

1 Omarska?

2 A. Yes, I knew.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Alic, you may have to speak up just a little

4 louder. I do not know.

5 A. Yes, I could.

6 MR. KAY: Thank you. When you saw the two men, was it just the two of

7 them or were there others with them?

8 A. It was the two of them and around them there were guards around them

9 all the time and they were walking around, but the two of them were

10 sitting.

11 Q. Were they sitting on the ground or on a chair or a bench?

12 A. No, there were chairs.

13 Q. On this occasion when you were crossing the pista, were other men

14 being held on the pista?

15 A. Yes, there was on the pista, there were always people on the pista,

16 inmates.

17 Q. To get to the restaurant building you go through the door in the

18 middle of that building, is that right?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. Did you with the men with you pass across the pista to get to that

21 door?

22 A. How do you mean? I do not understand.

23 Q. Did you go through the men who were held on the pista in that group

24 of 30 going to the restaurant to eat?

25 A. No, we were going -- the people were on the right and we were passing

Page 3965

1 by them.

2 Q. Thank you. As you told us, on these occasions you had to keep your

3 head down, is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So would it be right to say that the opportunity to look at the man

6 Meakic and the man you said was Dusko Tadic was not a long time?

7 A. No, I was at the corner. I was the first in the line. I was always

8 first when we went to lunch and so we were turning, we would turn our

9 heads towards the wall, and when they said, "OK, it is over", then we

10 would go and then I would just kind of glance over, you know, very

11 fast, but you cannot look so, you had to keep going, but you were

12 watched all the time from up there.

13 He is looking around and he is watching who is turning and,

14 you know, so we did not dare. We could not. So, they were beaten up,

15 people, and they did not know they were being watched and then all of

16 a sudden he would say, "You, come out here".

17 Q. Yes. When you went out from the hangar to go to the restaurant

18 building there were other guards around in the area watching you as

19 well as the people on the pista, would that be right?

20 A. Yes, yes, that is right.

21 Q. The second time you told us that you saw Dusko Tadic with the man

22 Meakic, that was on the other side of the restaurant building, the

23 part of the model that is closest to you, is that right?

24 A. Yes, he was on the west side of the restaurant the first time I saw

25 him.

Page 3966

1 Q. So the other time it was the other side of the building, would that

2 be right?

3 A. And the second time was on the east side of the building.

4 Q. Yes. Again, was that a similar occasion, were you going for lunch?

5 A. Yes, the same situation, going to lunch, otherwise I could not see

6 any because I was always in a room. Only when I was going to lunch,

7 then that is when you see somebody, otherwise there are no other

8 opportunities.

9 Q. Were the circumstances similar in that you were first in the line but

10 you had to keep your head down and you were under the control of the

11 guards?

12 A. The same, always the same, and always whenever I would go, I was --

13 that group that went, I was always the first.

14 Q. When you to went to lunch in this way did you walk or were forced to

15 run as best as you could?

16 A. Well, we had to run but that is why they put me up front so that I am

17 old, I was the oldest, and also my leg was not right, so I also

18 pretended a bit more so that we could go slower, so I was always put

19 up front.

20 Q. So you ran as best as you could?

21 A. As much as we could, how else?

22 Q. So, it seems from what you are telling us that the circumstances of

23 this second time were very similar to what you have told us about the

24 first occasion, would that be fair?

25 A. That is right.

Page 3967

1 MR. KAY: Thank you, I have no further questions.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Redirect?

3 Re-examined by MR. TIEGER

4 Q. Mr. Alic, I noted yesterday that when you were talking about the

5 surrender at Limenka, you said that you realised at that point that

6 your freedom was taken away from you, and you were just to bow your

7 head and that was it. I wondered if the expression "bow your head"

8 was symbolic or literal. At Limenka were you required to look down to

9 the ground or were you able to look around?

10 A. No, they were not asking that. They did not -- we did it ourselves

11 so that we would not be recognised and so that they would not

12 recognise us, and people knew my two sons. I had two sons and also

13 the people knew me too, and I knew what was going on. So I was just

14 looking in front, rather than being in a position when people would

15 say, "Where are your sons?" So I was there and I was just not

16 looking, because one of them, I had a daughter who is a deaf mute,

17 and when we got off the bus they were looking through things and he

18 was talking to her and she cannot understand him because she cannot

19 hear him, and he did not know she cannot talk and then he says, "I

20 will hit you with a rifle butt" and then I step in and I say, "She

21 cannot talk" and he said, "Shut up or else I will hit you" and so I

22 had to keep silent.

23 Q. At the time you saw Dule Tadic at Limenka you were looking ahead

24 rather than looking down?

25 A. Right in front of me, I saw a few of them. You know, there is army

Page 3968

1 all around, but if somebody would come that would recognise me, that

2 would be, but it was not my goal to recognise people. My aim was to

3 get saved.

4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, sir.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

6 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.

7 Examined by the Court

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just one question, Mr. Alic, please. Yesterday I

9 believe you testified that at one point when you were in Omarska

10 someone put a knife to your throat. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. At that time -- I do not have the transcript, but my notes at least

13 tell me -- you did not look but you saw that Dule Tadic was there, was

14 that your testimony?

15 A. I testified in that way because I saw Dule Tadic before he recognised

16 me, before they called me out, and he was there sitting with Meakic

17 when we were going to lunch, and then I was called out "Mehmed Alic,

18 called Meho", and a third is, they called out Alic Karabasic and

19 Hrnic, those were the best three, the three best friends that were

20 together, and then a fourth. When I was going out I heard them saying,

21 "Dule don't, Dule, brother", and somebody says, "Mother" and that is

22 why I claim, and that is why I took oath, that that is how it was and

23 in my mind that is how it is.

24 Q. So you did not see Dule when someone -- was Dule present when this

25 person put the knife to your throat? Did you see him?

Page 3969

1 A. He -- of course he was.

2 Q. You believe that he was present because of the reasons that you have

3 just testified to, is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that is sure, because he said, "What are you recognising, your

5 mother?" and maybe it was 10, 15 per cent I glanced sideways and he

6 says, "Are you recognising?" and then he put the knife, but I think

7 that there was somebody else, somebody from Omarska or Prijedor there.

8 He would not be interested in what I am looking at, what I am trying

9 to recognise, but he knows that I know about Karabasic and I know Dule

10 and I know all of them.

11 Q. So is it your testimony that Mr. Tadic put the knife to your throat?

12 A. I cannot say that with certainty, but he was in that group.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, sir. Mr. Tieger?

14 MR. TIEGER: Nothing, your Honour, thank you.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

16 MR. KAY: There is one matter that I ought to raise with you. Yesterday

17 when the witness gave evidence he did not say that he saw Dusko Tadic

18 there in this incident that we are concerned with. He said, "I know

19 he was there".

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: "There", and that was why I asked him the questions

21 I did, to find out what he meant by "there", but if you wish to

22 clarify that, you may ask more questions. It just seemed to me that

23 when you say someone was there, it was not clear to me what the

24 "there" meant, so you may ask more questions, if you wish.

25 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

Page 3970

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

2 MR. TIEGER: Nothing, your Honour, thank you.

3 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, you are the first witness to refer when looking

4 at the model to north, south, east and west. Would you just clarify

5 for me, am I right in thinking that that direction is north?

6 A. You mean, I was orientating myself on Bosnia. I knew in Bosnia what

7 is north. I can show it here too. This is the west. This is south.

8 This is north and that is east.

9 Q. I am sorry, that direction is north? Would you point to north, the

10 north direction in Bosnia?

11 A. (The witness indicated).

12 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Alic being permanently

14 excused, Mr. Kay?

15 MR. KAY: There is not, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Alic, you are permanently excused. That means

17 you are free to leave. Thank you for coming today and yesterday.

18 THE WITNESS: I thank you also for calling me and for allowing me to speak

19 the truth.

20 (The witness withdrew)

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you call your next witness,

22 please?

23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. The next witness is Halid

24 Mujkanovic. Before the witness enters, I should mention he was the

25 subject of the most recent motion with respect to facial distortion.

Page 3971

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then we may want to go into private session. Do not

2 ask him, to go back. Then we need to, I think, close the blinds for

3 him to enter and also, consistent with what we did with witness R, I

4 believe we will have to put up the screens. Is that not so? We will

5 then stand in recess for 10 minutes for that purpose. Thank you.

6 (10.30 p.m.)

7 (Adjourned for a short time)

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Before we proceed, we are hearing this witness in

9 this manner pursuant to a motion filed by the Prosecutor which, I

10 understand, has not been objected to by the Defence, is that correct?

11 I thought I had granted permission when it was raised, whenever the

12 Prosecution made that motion. If I did not grant it because it was not

13 objected to, I am granting it now. Very good. An order will follow.

14 MR. HALID MUJKANOVIC, called.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Please would you ask the witness to take the oath?

16 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

17 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18 (The witness was sworn)

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you may be seated.

20 Examined by MR. TIEGER

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Sir, would you state your name

23 please?

24 A. I am Halid Mujkanovic.

25 Q. What year were you born?

Page 3972

1 A. 4th January 1965.

2 Q. Where were you born?

3 A. Kozarusa.

4 Q. Is that where you were raised and lived until the time of the

5 conflict in 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What is your nationality?

8 A. Bosnian.

9 Q. Are you of Muslim background?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you attend school in Kozarac?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where was that?

14 A. Elementary school, Rade Kondic.

15 Q. What was your occupation before the conflict in 1992?

16 A. I was a cook. I worked in Prijedor.

17 Q. Sir, do you know Dule Tadic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How long have you known him?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How long have you known him?

22 A. Since fifth grade of the elementary school.

23 Q. Since about the time you were in the fifth grade?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was Mr. Tadic well known in Kozarac?

Page 3973

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Why was that?

3 A. Well, because he had this karate school. He was a citizen of

4 Kozarac.

5 Q. Did you see him frequently during the time you were a child attending

6 school in Kozarac?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you continue to see him frequently as you grew up and became a

9 young adult?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. As a young adult, did you spend a lot of time in the centre of

12 Kozarac?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Why was that? Doing what sorts of things? What was the purpose of

15 being in Kozarac?

16 A. Well, this was the centre, this was a meeting point. We met there

17 and socialised around coffee pubs, coffee bars.

18 Q. Do you remember when Mr. Tadic's cafe was built?

19 A. I believe it was towards the end of '90.

20 Q. Did you see it being built?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you remember who worked on it?

23 A. Well, there was a lot of work there. There were many Muslims who

24 worked there.

25 Q. Did you know Mr. Tadic's wife and who she was?

Page 3974

1 A. Yes. Yes, Mira, she was a nurse.

2 Q. Over the many years during which you knew Mr. Tadic, is it fair to

3 say that you saw him hundreds of times?

4 MR. KAY: Can I just raise one matter, your Honour? I think my learned

5 friend is leading too much on this matter. It is a matter for the

6 witness to say whether that frequency was appropriate.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will sustain the objection.

8 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Mujkanovic, can you estimate the number of times that

9 you saw Mr. Tadic over the years you knew him?

10 A. I cannot really try to calculate it, but numbers of times, sometimes

11 several times a day, sometimes several times a month, but I really

12 cannot say, to say 100 times or 200 times. I used to see him very

13 often, very many times since he was a known person.

14 Q. Do you recall whether or not Mr. Tadic had a noticeable or

15 characteristic way of walking?

16 A. Why, he had his characteristic gait. He walked, he made a kind of a

17 movement which I think he had since birth, I mean, how he walked, at

18 any rate, his walk, yes, he was quite characteristic.

19 Q. Did you know Emir Karabasic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you know Jasko Hrnic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you know Enver Alic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did Dule Tadic know those people?

Page 3975

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. At different times did you see him with one or the other of those

3 persons in cafes or in the street?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When the attack on Kozarac began on May 24th were you in Kozarusa?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you spend the first two nights of the attack in the area of a

8 nearby creek?

9 A. Yes, near my home.

10 Q. On Monday, the second day of the attack, did you spend time at a

11 neighbour's house where some members of your family were?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you also go to your home in an attempt to free your livestock?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On Tuesday, the third day of the attack, did you surrender?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you do so with a few people including the Imam of your local

18 mosque?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where did you first surrender?

21 A. I surrendered on the main road in Kozarusa. The main road is between

22 Prijedor and Banja Luka.

23 Q. Did you surrender to members of the Serb forces?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After you surrendered, were you then taken along with the others in

Page 3976

1 the direction of Kozarusa to the area where the restaurant Ziko was

2 located?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How far was that from where you had first surrendered?

5 A. About one kilometre.

6 Q. What time of day was that?

7 A. It was in the morning, around 10 o'clock.

8 Q. Were there Serb forces at the area of Ziko's restaurant?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were they armed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were there buses there?

13 A. There were.

14 Q. Did the buses have people on them?

15 A. Yes, they were full.

16 Q. Who was on those buses, men, women, children, who?

17 A. Those buses where I surrendered one kilometre away were full of women

18 and children and at Ziko's they were all men, male.

19 Q. What nationality were those women and children on the buses?

20 A. Muslim.

21 Q. Did you remain at the area of Ziko's restaurant or were you taken

22 elsewhere?

23 A. No, they put us on the buses straightaway.

24 Q. Where did the buses go?

25 A. Towards Prijedor. First, the buses with women turned off towards

Page 3977

1 Trnopolje and the ones with men went to Keraterm.

2 Q. When you arrived in Keraterm where were you held?

3 A. In a large room, I do not know how they called it. I think maybe it

4 was No. 2 but it was a large room.

5 Q. Did you spend that night in Keraterm?

6 A. Sorry, I could not hear the question.

7 Q. Did you spend that night in Keraterm?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The following night were you transferred from Keraterm?

10 A. Yes, to Omarska.

11 Q. After you arrived in Omarska where did you spend the first night?

12 A. I spent it in a room which was with within, where was -- where the

13 kitchen was. Upstairs there were interrogating rooms.

14 Q. How long were you held in the room in the kitchen building?

15 A. I stayed about two days and then the interrogation started, and I

16 was one of the first to go to interrogation. Then I was moved to the

17 hangar.

18 Q. Into which room in the hangar were you placed?

19 A. The room that had the glass door.

20 Q. After one entered the glass door and continued toward the back of the

21 room, what would be there?

22 A. On both sides there was a hallway and a staircase leading up to the

23 room. On both sides there were lockers where you could leave your

24 clothes, so there were metal lockers. There was nobody there. I was

25 the first one to arrive.

Page 3978

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this photograph marked as Exhibit 260

2 for identification, please? That photograph is marked as 19/24 and it

3 can be called up on the screen with that designation. Mr. Mujkanovic,

4 do you recognise what is shown in this picture?

5 A. Yes, I recognise that is where I was, in this corner, but there are

6 no lockers here on the two sides. I was here on top of the locker.

7 MR. TIEGER: First of all, I would tender this photograph for admission.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No objection?

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 260 will be admitted.

11 MR. TIEGER: If we could have it placed on the Elmo? Perhaps the witness

12 can indicate again where his place in the locker was.

13 A. The lockers were here on one side and the other side here. I was here

14 on the locker.

15 Q. Did you remain held in that room until you were transferred to

16 Manjaca in August?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Mujkanovic, how would you describe the general conditions in

19 Omarska during the time you were held there?

20 A. If you can call them conditions, those were terrible conditions,

21 hunger and then scabies, lice, dysentery. I do not know what else to

22 mention. I do not know -- impossible conditions.

23 Q. Were prisoners regularly beaten on their way to lunch or going to the

24 toilet?

25 A. Yes, every day.

Page 3979

1 Q. Were prisoners also singled out for individual or special beatings?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you singled out for an individual or special beating while you

4 were in Omarska?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who called you out for that beating?

7 A. They called him "Bakar". He had a scar on his face.

8 Q. Approximately, when was it that he called you out?

9 A. I cannot recall exactly, but I think towards the end of July. I do

10 not know.

11 Q. Where did he take you after he called you out?

12 A. He took me to a room -- as you enter the hangar, there was a small

13 room immediately to the right which was -- there were a few lockers

14 there and then a small table. When he brought me to that room, he

15 asked money from me, and I told him I did not have any.

16 Q. I am sorry, how much money did he ask for?

17 A. 20 billion.

18 Q. 20 billion of what currency?

19 A. Dinars.

20 Q. Just to put that in perspective, was that a time when it look

21 millions of dinars to buy the simplest of items?

22 A. Yes. That is right.

23 Q. What happened after you told Bakar that you did not have the money?

24 A. He said to lean over the table and then he started beating me with a

25 cable. It was a thick cable and it hurt a lot. He kept beating me.

Page 3980

1 When I fell off the table, he hit me a few more times and told me that

2 I had 10 minutes to bring him those 20 billion dinars. I went back

3 and I asked around. I knew that all of us were pretty much in the

4 same position. Everything had been taken away from us. Then he took

5 me back to the same room and asked me if I had brought him the money,

6 and I told him I did not have any and then I had to do the same thing

7 over the table, and then again he beat me.

8 Q. How long did that beating last?

9 A. For me, long because it hurt a lot.

10 Q. What did Bakar tell you when he stopped beating you?

11 A. He said, "Tomorrow night I am coming back to my shift". I had to give

12 him 30 billions or else he was going to kill me.

13 Q. Did you make an effort again to locate or come up with some money to

14 satisfy his demand?

15 A. Yes, I asked, I begged from people, and from all of that I got a

16 Seiko watch that was five billion and a small silver chain. When he

17 came back to his shift, he called me immediately to that same room and

18 asked me if I had found the money for him. At the same moment I

19 brought out of my pocket everything that I had. He hit me a few times

20 and said to run. Then I left the room.

21 Another soldier came by and hit me with a rifle butt on my

22 chest and I fell down. He started to hit me with his boots and he

23 stepped on my head and squeezed my ear, hit me in the stomach and he

24 hit my intestines and then the other one said, I beat him enough,

25 leave him alone. Then they cursed my mother and told me to leave. I

Page 3981

1 do not know how I ran to the room where I was. I fell down and I

2 could only say "water".

3 Q. Was this guard who was striking you with his feet, kicking you or

4 stomping you?

5 A. Kicking and stomping.

6 Q. How hard did he kick or stomp you?

7 A. So that my colon protruded out and he smashed my ear.

8 Q. Mr. Mujkanovic, during the time you were in Omarska did you see Dule

9 Tadic there?

10 A. Yes, twice.

11 Q. Where were you when you saw him?

12 A. I was there in my room by the lockers next to the door.

13 Q. Do you know when that occurred? What date?

14 A. The exact date, I do not know. I do not know if it was June or July,

15 but it was afternoon when it ----

16 Q. Were prisoners called from rooms in your area that day?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you recall who was first called from your area?

19 A. As far as I recall, it was Emir Karabasic.

20 Q. Where was Emir Karabasic held?

21 A. It was in the same room but he was on the top floor.

22 Q. So he was upstairs?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you notice who called him out or did you know the person who

25 called him out?

Page 3982

1 A. No.

2 Q. Was the person who called him out a regular guard?

3 A. No.

4 Q. What did that person say?

5 A. He called him out and he told him that he had a minute to get down

6 there.

7 Q. Were you aware of what Emir's physical condition was before that day?

8 A. He was beaten up a few days earlier, so he was recovering.

9 Q. Did Emir Karabasic come down in response to the soldier ----

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I did not ask you, what was the person who called him out wearing?

12 A. He was wearing camouflage uniform.

13 Q. When Emir came down did that soldier say anything to him?

14 A. Yes, he hit him and he cursed his balija mother. He said, "Why are

15 you dragging?" because he was moving too slowly.

16 Q. After Emir Karabasic left the room, did you hear anything coming from

17 the area of the hangar floor?

18 A. Yes, I did, screams and cries.

19 Q. Was that for a short time or did that continue for some time?

20 A. I cannot determine, to me it was long, but I do not know how long.

21 Q. Was someone else called from the room after that?

22 A. Yes, Eno Alic was called out.

23 Q. Did Eno Alic respond immediately after he was called out?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Was someone else sent to get him?

Page 3983

1 A. Yes, his father, Meho Alic, came.

2 Q. Did a soldier bring Meho Alic to the room?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did Meho Alic go upstairs to look for his son?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. After some time did you see them both come down?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. After the two of them left the room did you hear what was happening

9 outside?

10 A. Yes, I heard what was happening -- again cries and screams and so

11 .....

12 Q. Did prisoners in your room do anything after these screams and cries

13 had begun and were continuing?

14 A. Yes, many of them ran upstairs to the top floor. I only managed to

15 jump off the locker to the corner next to the door.

16 Q. Why did you jump off the locker?

17 A. I wanted to run away like the others, but I did not manage because it

18 was so -- the regular guards were so close looking at me, if I did run

19 maybe they would get me, they would call me out to come.

20 Q. What position did you take after you jumped off the locker?

21 A. In the corner there was, I do not know, there was either a dress or

22 something. I was in some kind of crouching, kneeling position and my

23 hands were up like this.

24 Q. Do you know what you were sitting on?

25 A. There was something there. There were some clothes or maybe there

Page 3984

1 was something underneath. I do not know exactly. There was something.

2 I do not know.

3 Q. Were other prisoners called out?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who else did you hear called out?

6 A. Jasko Hrnic was called out.

7 Q. Did you know where his room was?

8 A. His room was next to mine, the next one over.

9 Q. Was Jasko Hrnic called out more than once?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When he finally responded to the calling out, did he pass by the area

12 of your door?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you able to see his face or the face of any guard he was with as

15 he started walking by?

16 A. I saw his face when the guard was escorting him. When he was hit by

17 the guard passing by the door and when he bent over, I saw his face.

18 Q. Do you know what Jasko's condition had been before this day?

19 A. He was also recovering. He had been beaten up.

20 Q. Other than the three persons you have mentioned, that is, Emir

21 Karabasic, Eno Alic and Jasko Hrnic, did you hear any other prisoners

22 called out during the approximate time of this incident?

23 A. Yes, I heard, I personally heard Beganovic.

24 Q. Was that coming from the area in front of your door or from some

25 other portion of the hangar?

Page 3985

1 A. It was approximately around the toilet. That is where it came from.

2 That is where I heard.

3 Q. The sounds of beating or the sounds of crying and screaming which you

4 stated before, were they continuing after Jasko Hrnic was called out?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did those cries and screams continue for a brief time or continue for

7 a long time?

8 A. For me, it lasted a long time. I do not know how long.

9 Q. As you continued crouching in the corner, were other prisoners taken

10 from your room?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were they called out by name or selected in some other way?

13 A. No, they said two volunteers must come out, if they do not come out

14 they would kill somebody. Across from me there were two men and they

15 came out and went over to them.

16 Q. Using initials, can you tell us who those men were?

17 A. Yes, it was G and H.

18 Q. After G and H were called out, did you hear more screams and cries?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You have described the position you took in the corner and how you

21 had your hands over your face in an effort to signal to the guards

22 outside that you were not looking. Did you, nevertheless, look at

23 certain times during the incident to see what was happening outside

24 the room?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3986

1 Q. Did you watch the entire incident or only portions of it?

2 A. Only portions.

3 Q. Do you know how much time passed between those portions of the

4 incident when you were watching and those portions when you were not?

5 A. No, it is hard for me to estimate.

6 Q. I would like to ask you then to tell us what you did see during those

7 times that you were looking out from your room on to the floor of the

8 hangar?

9 A. I saw when G was coming out of the canal, he was all covered in oil.

10 Q. Had you heard any shouting or words coming from the area of that

11 canal ---

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- shortly before he came out, and what did you hear?

14 A. A pig, like pigs.

15 Q. What else were you able to see, Mr. Mujkanovic, during those times

16 you were looking?

17 A. I saw when H was holding, I cannot quite say whether it was Emir

18 Karabasic or somebody else, by the hands, when he was holding him by

19 the hands, G had to bow down in his crutch and it was ordered to him

20 that he must bite the genital. When I looked up the second time, in

21 those moments there were screams. When the second time I looked, G

22 got up with his mouth full. He was all bloody from oil. Those

23 moments that there was a group of soldiers, somebody was shooting up

24 in the air, and a little time passed. One of the soldiers brought him

25 to this person, a dove to this person which was lying on the concrete

Page 3987

1 and he was given this dove or pigeon that was still alive and was

2 given to this person to eat.

3 The second time I looked, Jasko Hrnic was not far from me and

4 a soldier beat him with, I do not know what it was, a metal iron bar

5 or something, but as he fell he was showing no signs of life, and

6 music was played, "Let me live" was the name of the song. It was hard

7 for me. My stomach was churning. I do not know how I ran away

8 upstairs to the toilet, which was upstairs when you got upstairs to

9 the left. How I got there to the toilet, I do not know, to throw up

10 even though I had nothing to throw up. I did not eat anything. I had

11 not eaten anything.

12 Q. Did you see many soldiers on the hangar floor during that time?

13 A. Well, they were there, I do not know how many, but a group of them,

14 as far as I could see, I do not know how many.

15 Q. Were they always together or were they in separate groups at times?

16 A. Those that I saw were in a group.

17 Q. How were these soldiers acting? What were they doing?

18 A. Well, they looked as if they were attending a sports match, as if

19 they were supporting a team.

20 Q. Did you see Dule Tadic during this incident?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. KAY: Can I object, your Honour? Perhaps the appropriate question

23 (because, in my submission, this is a leading form) would be to ask

24 the witness whether he recognised anyone there.

25 MR. TIEGER: I will be happy to do that.

Page 3988

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Rephrase the question.

2 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Mr. Mujkanovic, during this incident did you

3 see anyone in the hangar whom you recognised?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who was that?

6 A. Dule Tadic.

7 Q. Where was he when you saw him?

8 A. The first time I saw him he was on a tyre and the second time he was

9 on the concrete in front, by one of the canals which was across the

10 WC, facing towards me.

11 Q. Can I ask you to stand up for a moment and using that pointer show us

12 on the model where Dule Tadic was those two times you saw him during

13 the incident? If I can remind you to rise slowly and move slowly

14 because of the camera? Mr. Mujkanovic, I am told you need to go back

15 to your seat, please.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Go back to your seat, this way. What we will do is

17 pull a few of the blinds down. Perhaps the two blinds next to the

18 screens can be lowered? Would that help, Mr. Tieger? Mr. Kay, any

19 objection?

20 MR. KAY: Yes, of course.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, very good.

22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. Mujkanovic, if

23 I could now ask you again to rise slowly from your chair and go to the

24 model and show us the approximate area where Dule Tadic was when you

25 saw him those times.

Page 3989

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you need to approach, Mr. Kay?

2 A. The first time he was here and the second time here.

3 JUDGE VOHRAH: The second time?

4 MR. TIEGER: I am sorry. Can you show us the approximate areas again,

5 please?

6 A. The first time here the second time here.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. In what direction was Dule Tadic facing on those two

8 occasions you saw him?

9 A. Towards me.

10 Q. Were there any soldiers around him?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE STEPHEN: I wonder if you would get the witness also to point out

13 where he was?

14 MR. TIEGER: Sir, if I could ask you to rise again and show us your room

15 and where you were?

16 A. I was here, he was here.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: There are some blue numbers there, are there not,

18 nearby? Will that help to show more -- go ahead, Mr. Tieger.

19 MR. TIEGER: Sir, if there is a number which appears on the floor of the

20 room in which you were, if you could read that number for us?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone be switched on for the witness,

22 please?

23 MR. TIEGER: Do you see a number written on the floor of the room in which

24 you were held?

25 A. A15.

Page 3990

1 Q. Thank you, sir. You can resume your seat. Mr. Mujkanovic, do you

2 see Dule Tadic in court today?

3 A. That is him there.

4 Q. Can you tell us what he is wearing, please, so we can identify that

5 for the record?

6 A. He has a suit of a sort of a green colour. He has a tie. He also has

7 an off-white shirt.

8 Q. What was Dule Tadic wearing when you saw him on the hangar floor?

9 A. The camouflage uniform.

10 Q. On that day do you recall whether he was clean shaven or had a beard?

11 A. Well, a few days growth. It was not long, it was not short, well,

12 sort of a couple of days, two or three days growth, I would not know.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, first may the record reflect the identification

14 of the accused?

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

16 identified the accused.

17 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

19 (11.38 a.m.)

20 (Adjourned for a short time)

21 (12.00 p.m.)

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

23 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

24 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

25 Q. Mr. Mujkanovic, did you know Emir Karabasic before you were detained

Page 3991

1 in Omarska?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was he a friend of yours?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Eno Alic, did you know him before you were detained in Omarska?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Jasko Hrnic, did you know him before you were detained in Omarska?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The area where you were confined, you have told us, was in this room

10 or hallway at the foot of the stairs, is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So you were not staying in a room on the floor above?

13 A. No, I was in the corridor and there were the stairs which led

14 upstairs of that same room.

15 Q. The place in the corridor became your room whilst you were staying in

16 Omarska, is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The room above was a room where there were many prisoners detained,

19 is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The room where you were detained, did it have guards separate from

22 those who would have been guarding the room above?

23 A. No.

24 Q. The door which was a glass door into the hangar, was that a door that

25 was generally closed?

Page 3992

1 A. Yes. One wing was open, a part of the door. A part of the door was

2 open, the central part.

3 Q. The incident that you have been describing as happening concerning

4 Karabasic, Alic, Hrnic, on that occasion was that door to the hangar

5 closed?

6 A. Open, it was open.

7 Q. When you stayed down there and it was your room, about how many other

8 people were in that area like you staying there?

9 A. I do not know. I know about myself.

10 Q. Well, were you in this place then on your own?

11 A. In that place where I was, I was alone.

12 Q. Was your place there on your own the whole time that you were staying

13 there in that part of the camp?

14 A. Throughout my stay in the camp I was on the locker, and that was in

15 the corner when you come down from the locker on the tiles.

16 Q. You have shown us that in the photograph, and ---

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- the place where you slept then, was that on top of the lockers?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Other people were not staying down there with you, it was just you on

21 your own, is that right?

22 A. When? At that moment or?

23 Q. I am asking about the whole period of the time that you were in that

24 place in the camp, in that hallway.

25 A. Oh, at that time it was full, both down and on the lockers.

Page 3993

1 Q. On the day of this incident that you have been telling us about, did

2 the other people who stayed in that part of the hallway remain there

3 or did they leave?

4 A. They left, escaped, upstairs, up the stairs.

5 Q. Did they escape before anyone was called out by the guard?

6 A. No.

7 Q. At what stage did they leave that hallway to go upstairs?

8 A. I already said it once and I shall repeat it. When Eno Alic was

9 taken away, then they left, went upstairs.

10 Q. You said that the guards asked for two volunteers to come out, and

11 those are the men you have described as G and H. At what stage were

12 they asked to be volunteers?

13 A. When Eno Alic and Emir Karabasic were taken out, volunteers who were

14 -- had to volunteer.

15 Q. When those two were selected, had the others left that hallway by

16 then, or did they leave after those two had been selected?

17 A. I have already said, they left after Eno Alic was taken away. Some

18 of them, those two across me who stayed, they went out as volunteers

19 without choice.

20 Q. So after they had gone and the others were left, were you the only

21 person remaining in this part of the hallway?

22 A. I know that I was there on my own.

23 Q. It seems then that the guards allowed the other people to leave that

24 part of the hallway and go upstairs to another room, is that right?

25 A. No.

Page 3994

1 Q. How were the other people who had previously been staying then in

2 this part of the hallway able to leave that area and move elsewhere

3 in the building?

4 A. They should know that.

5 Q. You said that you did not feel it was possible for you to escape from

6 the area because of the guards that were there, is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you say "because of those guards that were there", how many

9 guards do you mean?

10 A. I do not know.

11 Q. Can you tell me where they were positioned in relation to that part

12 of the hallway where you were?

13 A. Not far from me, by my side.

14 Q. So they were in the area of the hall, were they, rather than being in

15 the actual hangar part of the building?

16 A. They were in the hangar.

17 Q. So, they were the other side of the doors that you have referred to

18 as opening from the hallway into the hangar, would that be right?

19 A. Yes, outside the door.

20 Q. Were there any guards that you knew of who were in the area above

21 this part of the hallway, in the room above or in the hallway above or

22 at the top of the stairs?

23 A. The guards did not go in there. There were people, Muslims, shut up

24 there.

25 Q. So there were no guards stationed up there in a position standing

Page 3995

1 outside any room where Muslim men were detained, would that be right?

2 A. I said they were in front of it, in the hangar, not far from the

3 area, from the room where I was.

4 Q. So, why was it then that you did not leave this part of the hallway

5 and, like the others, go upstairs to a room there?

6 A. Because I did not manage to flee.

7 Q. But it seems that there was nothing to have stopped you from moving

8 there once the guards had selected their two volunteers to go into the

9 hangar, is that right?

10 A. How do you know that?

11 Q. Well, I am asking you to see if you can help me on this because I am

12 interested to know how it is you remained in this area on your own.

13 A. Because it was all full, narrow staircase, who managed to escape

14 upstairs, he did, and since I was on the locker I managed to jump down

15 and I stayed in that corner in that posture.

16 Q. When you jumped down, was that after the two volunteers had been

17 selected?

18 A. No, I was already down.

19 Q. When you jumped down to the posture that you told us about, was that

20 because you were hiding from the guards?

21 A. I do not know what was then, I know I simply remained. I kept that

22 posture.

23 Q. It seems then that you thought it was better to try to conceal

24 yourself rather than stand up and be noticed, is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3996

1 Q. As you told us, you covered your eyes with your hands so that no one

2 would believe you were watching what was happening in the hangar, is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes, but my hands were like this.

5 Q. Were you lying down on the floor looking through the glass of the

6 door?

7 A. I said that I was neither sitting nor crouching in that posture. It

8 was something, it was clothes or something, I do not know what it was,

9 it was something.

10 Q. The doors that you have mentioned are doors that have a glass

11 section, is that right, and beneath that a metal section?

12 A. The door was all glass, only the frame was metal.

13 Q. Are you telling us then that it was glass from the top of the door

14 down to the bottom of the floor?

15 A. There was about 20 centimetres of this metal frame all around, and at

16 the bottom all the rest was glass.

17 Q. Perhaps if you could look at Exhibit 260 which was shown to us

18 earlier today? Perhaps if it could be put on the overhead projector

19 so that everyone can see it? It is actually on the video monitor, Mr.

20 Bos, so there is no need. Thank you very much. (To the witness):

21 You can see the photograph, Mr. Mujkanovic, that is in front of you

22 now, is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. We see here the glass that is within these doors and the panels on

25 the side, and beneath that a metal bottom. Just looking at this

Page 3997

1 photograph, can you indicate to us which side on the photograph you

2 would have been looking through?

3 A. Through this part here.

4 Q. Perhaps if you would just describe it, if it is on the left side as

5 we look at the photograph, or right side, or which of the panels?

6 A. As you enter that room, that corridor, it is the left side. If you

7 go out of it, then it is to the right.

8 Q. Is it that side panel beside the door itself which was the part of

9 the glass that you were looking through?

10 A. I know that this is the glass through which I looked.

11 Q. I am asked to indicate that on the Elmo so that it is without any

12 doubt. If you could just use that pointer and point to the photograph

13 on the monitor and then we can see? So it is that second panel from

14 the left, is that right? Thank you.

15 The hangar that you were looking out into was a hangar which

16 had equipment within it such as trucks, other items connected with the

17 ordinary use of that building, is that right?

18 A. Once upon a time, at that time in this area which I faced, it was the

19 same, as far as I saw.

20 Q. The area that you were looking into in the hangar was not an area

21 that was lit by any artificial lighting, is that right? I am sorry, I

22 did not catch the translation of that?

23 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry we did not hear the reply.

24 MR. KAY: Perhaps could you reply and the second microphone be switched on

25 for the witness?

Page 3998

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may have to repeat the question for the witness,

2 if you will?

3 MR. KAY: Yes. (To the witness): This building called the hangar that

4 you were looking into was not lit by any artificial lighting, is that

5 right?

6 A. During day time it was lit because the door was open, the door of the

7 garage was open -- it was a big door -- so that there was enough light

8 to see.

9 Q. On this occasion, though, was that door to the garage open or was it

10 closed?

11 A. Sometimes it was open and sometimes it was closed.

12 Q. Was it closed on this occasion when this incident happened?

13 A. I know that the visibility was all right, it was day time.

14 Q. But you are inside a large building and you are not outside in the

15 daylight. What I am asking about is the lighting conditions within

16 this part of the building.

17 A. Very good.

18 Q. Is that a fair answer, Mr. Mujkanovic, or an answer that you are just

19 giving because you believe it helps what you have told the Court?

20 A. I know that the visibility was all right and there was light.

21 Q. The area that you were looking into contained a number of men who

22 have been described as soldiers. Did you recognise anyone else there

23 out in the hangar when these incidents were happening?

24 A. I recognised Dule Tadic. He was the only one.

25 Q. So you did not recognise anyone else?

Page 3999

1 A. No.

2 Q. The number of men that we are talking about as being in the hangar at

3 this time, soldiers who were part of this group, is how many?

4 A. I cannot say exactly, a group, how large were the group I saw, seven

5 or 10, I do not know.

6 Q. If you cannot give any names of those people, did you know any of

7 them in any other way, recognise them in any other way?

8 A. What people? The soldiers or?

9 Q. The soldiers whom I am asking you about at the moment.

10 A. No, I did not.

11 Q. Is it the case then that you are giving Dule Tadic's name because

12 that is a name that has been given to you by someone else?

13 A. No, I was not given it. I saw him with my own eyes because I know

14 him well.

15 Q. Do you know a Miso Danicic?

16 A. No.

17 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

19 MR. TIEGER: Nothing further, your Honour.

20 Examined by the Court

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: Could I have that Exhibit again, that photograph?

22 (Handed) Witness, would you turn round and face me? Thank you. This

23 photograph that you have seen, that is taken from the floor of the

24 hangar looking towards the stairs, is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4000

1 Q. Where did the volunteers come from? Where were they?

2 A. They were across the room from me. They were also sitting down on

3 the tiles.

4 Q. So they were not upstairs, they were on the ground floor?

5 A. On the ground floor, yes.

6 Q. These soldiers that you saw in the hangar, had you ever seen any of

7 them other than the man you say was Dule Tadic before?

8 A. I may have, but I do not know.

9 Q. So they were not regular visitors who came to deal with the

10 prisoners?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you indicated that you saw Mr. Tadic and he was

14 facing towards you, is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How far away was he from where this incident was taking place that

17 you described?

18 A. Close. I could not say it really down to a centimetre, but not too

19 far.

20 Q. You have indicated you could not estimate the number of, did you say

21 centimetres that Mr. Tadic was from where this incident was taking

22 place, is that correct?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you see Mr. Tadic involve himself at all in the incident that was

25 taking place, and by "involve" I mean take an active part, and that

Page 4001

1 may mean even -- pardon me?

2 A. I did not see those moments.

3 Q. So you did not then see Mr. Tadic require any of, Mr. G for example,

4 to commit the acts that you have described, is that correct?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, additional questions?

7 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

9 MR. KAY: No thank you, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to this witness being

11 permanently excused?

12 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. We will leave the courtroom and adjourn early

14 for lunch, it is suggested, so that arrangements can be made for the

15 next witness. Sir, you are permanently excused. You are free to

16 leave. Thank you very much for coming. We will leave and then you

17 may leave.

18 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. We will stand in recess for an hour and a

20 half. I do want to be available to work with the lawyers if you need

21 any assistance in making the arrangements for the next witness. I

22 have asked the Registry to see if we can locate another piece of

23 equipment which might help. So if you will just remain a few moments

24 and we will see what can be done in that regard.

25 So we will stand in recess for an hour and a half for lunch.

Page 4002

1 (12.35 p.m.)

2 (Luncheon Adjournment)

3

4

5 (2.00 p.m.)

6 (Closed Session) – released by Trial Chamber II on 29.07.96

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are now in closed session and I will ask the

8 audio visual director to confirm that this proceeding at this point is

9 not being released to the media at this time? Very good. Thank you.

10 MR. KEEGAN: The Prosecution will call witness H, your Honour.

11 WITNESS H, called.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will ask that the witness please take the oath

13 that is being handed to him.

14 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I declare that I will speak the truth, the

15 whole truth and nothing but the truth.

16 (The witness was sworn)

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

18 Examined by MR. KEEGAN

19 Q. Mr. H, you were born in 1968?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Are you married?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you have children?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How many?

Page 4003

1 A. Three, three sons.

2 Q. What is your ethnic group?

3 A. Muslim.

4 Q. Were you born and raised in the Kozarac area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you attend primary and secondary school in Kozarac and Prijedor?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. After your schooling did you work in the construction field?

9 A. Yes, I have.

10 Q. Did you complete your compulsory military service?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In what year?

13 A. '87, '88.

14 Q. After you returned home from your compulsory military service, did

15 you ever participate in any reserve training?

16 A. No, never.

17 Q. Were you ever a member of a TO?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you ever participate in politics?

20 A. No, never.

21 Q. Did you work out of the Kozarac area for several years before the

22 war?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you return home on weekends and holidays?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4004

1 Q. Do you know a man named Dusko Tadic from Kozarac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How do you know him?

4 A. I know him from Kozarac, from the town, and when I trained for one

5 year karate and he was my instructor.

6 Q. Do you know whether he was married?

7 A. I know.

8 Q. Do you know his wife's name?

9 A. Mira.

10 Q. Do you know whether his wife worked?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know where?

13 A. In the hospital in Kozarac.

14 Q. In addition to training for a year in karate, did you ever see the

15 man you know, Dusko Tadic, around the village of Kozarac?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know what he did for a living?

18 A. I do not know that. I know that he trained karate. Maybe he made

19 money from that.

20 Q. Before the war had you ever seen the man Dusko Tadic with a beard?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Had you seen him on occasions without a beard?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you at home in the Kozarac area when the attack on that area

25 started?

Page 4005

1 A. Yes, I was.

2 Q. When did that attack start?

3 A. May 24th 1992.

4 Q. Do you recall approximately what time of the day?

5 A. Around 2.15 in the afternoon.

6 Q. How did the attack start, what happened?

7 A. First, the shelling started.

8 Q. When the shelling began what did you do?

9 A. I got scared.

10 Q. Did you leave your house?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where did you go?

13 A. I did not know where to go and what to do.

14 Q. So where did you end up going first?

15 A. To the next village.

16 Q. How long did you stay in the next village?

17 A. The first night.

18 Q. Did you return home the next day?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did you do at home?

21 A. Nothing. I was with the family.

22 Q. Did you stay at your home for the rest of the time during the attack?

23 A. Not all the time.

24 Q. What would you do?

25 A. We ran all over.

Page 4006

1 Q. Why were you running all over?

2 A. Because there was shooting from all sides.

3 Q. At some point did you go to the village of Sivci?

4 A. Sivci, yes.

5 Q. How long did you stay there?

6 A. That was Tuesday evening, the whole night and then early in the

7 morning.

8 Q. Why did you leave Sivci?

9 A. Because it also started there, the shooting and grenades.

10 Q. Where did you go when you left Sivci?

11 A. I went back home.

12 Q. Were you captured at your home?

13 A. Not right away.

14 Q. Can you explain how you were eventually captured?

15 A. We returned that morning with the family, and some of our neighbours

16 with a tractor and a trailer, the wife and children. We came home and

17 we found the cattle, the livestock, outside. Then we tied them, then

18 we fed it, then had lunch and then we bathed and we did the laundry,

19 and then we were at home until again the shelling started and the

20 ordnance started falling in the yard.

21 Q. What did you do when that happened?

22 A. Then I fled to a crevice, to a ravine, with my wife and children.

23 Q. What was in this ravine that you fled to?

24 A. It was a very small ravine.

25 Q. Was there a stream in it?

Page 4007

1 A. No, not at that time.

2 Q. When you were in that ravine what happened?

3 A. I heard some noise, and I went over to see what it was about. I left

4 the child. I turned it over to either my mother or my wife and

5 started uphill to a point where I could have a good view of what the

6 noise was about.

7 Q. What did you see when you got up there?

8 A. I saw a column of people, my neighbours and one soldier who was

9 escorting them.

10 Q. Did your neighbour saying anything to you?

11 A. Yes, the soldiers beckoned to me and they also shouted that we were

12 going to some kind of a meeting. I agreed to come along and I did.

13 Q. Was there, in fact, any meeting?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did this group of people you were with, the soldiers, eventually make

16 your way to the town of Kozarac?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you got to the entrance of Kozarac, what happened?

19 A. There was a lot of military there, and more people, civilians, our

20 civilians.

21 Q. Were the military that you mentioned saying anything to the people

22 you were with?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What were they saying?

25 A. They cursed us, our balija mothers.

Page 4008

1 Q. What was the ethnic group of this group of civilians that you were

2 with, the ethnic background?

3 A. Muslims.

4 Q. Did you recognise any of the soldiers?

5 A. Hardly. They were Serbs.

6 Q. When you were in Kozarac where was your group taken?

7 A. Towards Prijedor. We came to Limenka.

8 Q. What is Limenka?

9 A. That was a bus stop that was called Limenka.

10 Q. Was it on the Prijedor/Banja Luka road?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was that the new road or the old road?

13 A. New, the new road.

14 Q. What happened when you arrived at Limenka?

15 A. There we were separated, women and children from men.

16 Q. What happened to the men?

17 A. We were separated out down the hill on the other side of the road and

18 they searched us, and the women and children remained on the other

19 side, the upper side.

20 Q. Did the Serb soldiers say anything to you, any of the male prisoners?

21 A. When we started climbing on to the buses a man was walking next to

22 me, and a soldier stopped him and asked him how many Serbs he killed,

23 and he remained behind and I went on to the bus.

24 Q. When you got on the bus, what happened after you were on the bus?

25 A. We got into the buses and started towards Prijedor.

Page 4009

1 Q. Where did the buses end up?

2 A. In Keraterm.

3 Q. What happened to you once the buses arrived at Keraterm?

4 A. We were brought to the grounds, to the enclosure, those buses, and

5 waited for sometime.

6 Q. How long did you wait in those buses?

7 A. I am not sure how long.

8 Q. What time of the day was it now when you arrived at Keraterm?

9 A. Afternoon.

10 Q. When you got off the buses was it still afternoon or was it now

11 evening?

12 A. At dusk, it was not night yet.

13 Q. What happened when you got off the buses?

14 A. The soldier escorting us told us to -- for us from that village to

15 stand aside.

16 Q. The soldier you are referring to, is that the same soldier who had

17 escorted your group from your village?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you mention he told those of you from that village, do you mean

20 that group that you had been in, that same group?

21 A. Mostly, we were mostly from that village.

22 Q. So that guard was separating you out from the others on the buses?

23 A. No, he said that we should step aside.

24 Q. What happened when he told you to do that?

25 A. People began to join us, and then he returned and indicated back.

Page 4010

1 Q. When the guard returned, you say he "indicated back", what does that

2 mean?

3 A. On to the bus again, all.

4 Q. How was he acting when he came back and saw that the group had not

5 been separated?

6 A. Well, he was agitated, angry, and he left.

7 Q. Why do you think the other prisoners who had not been originally part

8 of your group tried to join with your group when the guard had told

9 you to be separated?

10 A. Well, I do not know. They probably thought it meant some ----

11 Q. Had that guard who had escorted you treated your group differently

12 than some of the other guards had treated other people?

13 A. He behaved quite all right.

14 Q. Once you were all told to get back on the buses, where did the buses

15 go?

16 A. A column was formed, whether it was around midnight or after

17 midnight, I would not know, and we were taken somewhere.

18 Q. Where did the buses finally stop?

19 A. In Omarska.

20 Q. Once you arrived at Omarska what occurred when you first got off the

21 buses?

22 A. They forced us to run off the buses and there were soldiers lined up

23 on both sides along the road.

24 Q. What happened when you ran between those soldiers?

25 A. Those soldiers hit us, they kicked us with their hands or with their

Page 4011

1 rifle butts as long as we were running between them.

2 Q. Were you put in a building after you ran through that cordon of

3 guards?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Which building was that?

6 A. We ran through a door, then we went up the stairs, right, right and

7 then right again to a room.

8 Q. Mr. H, at this point could you please stand and using the pointer

9 move around to the model and using the pointer would you please

10 indicate the room that you were placed in when you first arrived at

11 the Omarska camp?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you want the witness to stand in front of the

14 witness desk?

15 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Ma'am, he is aware.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone be switched on for the witness,

17 please?

18 MR. KEEGAN: Mr. H, when you speak you are going to need to ----

19 A. From somewhere here there was a path to the door.

20 Q. Just a moment, please. Can we have the camera switched on, please?

21 OK. It is on. Thank you.

22 A. Shall I go on?

23 Q. Just a moment, please. Yes, please, could you indicate where you

24 were taken out of the buses?

25 A. The bus stopped somewhere here, and this part we had to run across

Page 4012

1 between those guards who hit us, to this door here.

2 Q. Then up the stairs, and to which room were you taken?

3 A. Up the stairs to the left. We went then to the right and then to the

4 right to a room.

5 Q. OK. Could you point to that room, please?

6 A. (The witness indicated on the model).

7 Q. Can you identify which room you are pointing to by the letter and

8 number designator that is in there?

9 A. B7.

10 Q. I notice that in that area of the room B7 there also would appear to

11 be two smaller rooms. Do you know what was in those smaller areas?

12 A. There were some tin wash basins or tubs.

13 Q. Did the prisoners who were in the camp consider that entire area,

14 including those two smaller rooms, to be one single room?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. If you could return to your seat? How many days did you

17 end up spending in that room?

18 A. Five or six.

19 Q. During the first few days, two or three days, were you allowed out of

20 the room?

21 A. Only if someone had to go to the WC.

22 Q. How crowded was that room?

23 A. It was overcrowded. There were very many people.

24 Q. Was there enough space for each person to be able to lay down and

25 sleep?

Page 4013

1 A. There was no room to sit down.

2 Q. When did you receive your first meal?

3 A. The third day.

4 Q. How did you feel after those first three days?

5 A. Scared, hungry, complete uncertainty.

6 Q. Were people being taken out for interrogation?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How were people called out of the room?

9 A. By name and surname.

10 Q. When did you go for interrogation?

11 A. On the fifth or sixth day.

12 Q. Where were you taken for interrogation?

13 A. A soldier came, and it was that everyone had to go for interrogation

14 and I decided to go. I was taken to a room, the kitchen where the

15 restaurant was.

16 Q. What part of that building were you taken to?

17 A. I was taken into the building, up the stairs, and up there when I

18 mounted the stairs, there was a soldier standing to the left side on

19 the corridor.

20 Q. Were you taken into a separate room for interrogation?

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. Where were you interrogated?

23 A. In the corridor.

24 Q. What type of questions were you asked during the interrogation?

25 A. Whether I had any money, whether I had a rifle, to empty my pockets.

Page 4014

1 Q. Any other types of questions?

2 A. Afterwards there was where I worked, what did I do, how did I travel.

3 Q. Were you beaten during your interrogation?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you know who your interrogator was?

6 A. I do not know.

7 Q. What type of clothes was he wearing?

8 A. Civilian.

9 Q. After the interrogation was over where were you taken?

10 A. I was returned back to the same building, but downstairs in the

11 ground, on the ground floor. I did not go back to where I had come

12 from.

13 Q. If you could please again approach the model and point to the room

14 where you were taken after interrogation?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you returned where were you taken, please?

17 A. We entered here, through this door, crossed this here in this room.

18 This is where I was brought.

19 Q. If you could please use the pointer again and indicate inside the

20 room, point to the inside of the room, please? Could you identify

21 that room by the letter and number designator, please?

22 A. A15.

23 Q. In that room did you go upstairs or did you remain on the ground

24 floor?

25 A. It was all full already so I stayed close to the door.

Page 4015

1 Q. Thank you. You can return to your seat, Mr. H.

2 JUDGE STEPHEN: Would you ask the witness, are those glass doors?

3 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, sir, I am going to get to that right now. If I could

4 have this photograph marked as the next Exhibit in order which is 261

5 and then hand it to the witness, please? I am going to need the Elmo.

6 Mr. H, do you recognise that picture, Exhibit 261?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If that could be placed on the Elmo, please? Thank you. What is that

9 picture, please?

10 A. This is the room in which I was, where I was brought after the

11 interrogation.

12 Q. Could we have the lights dimmed, please, while this picture is on the

13 Exhibit? I guess not. Is this photograph taken from the landing of

14 the stairway down into the room?

15 A. From the landing at the top of the stairs downward, to the room.

16 Q. What is different in this picture from when you were in the room?

17 A. The metal lockers on both sides are gone and this was not here, these

18 boots, these hammers and these clothes.

19 Q. If you could indicate, please, with the pointer generally the area

20 where you spent your time in that room?

21 A. (The witness indicated on the picture) About here.

22 Q. So as we look at that picture it would be on the left side where the

23 wheelbarrow is?

24 A. About that.

25 Q. You indicated there were lockers along the walls in that room?

Page 4016

1 A. Yes, on both sides.

2 Q. Were you on the floor or on the lockers?

3 A. On the floor -- on the tiles, as a matter of fact.

4 Q. So would your back have been up against the locker?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I would offer Exhibit 261, please.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

8 JUDGE VOHRAH: Mr. Keegan, would you find out from the witness what sort

9 of lockers these were, what are their shape?

10 MR. KEEGAN: It is coming up, your Honour.

11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, there is no objection but we would like a copy of

12 it which we have not been supplied with.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 261 will be admitted. Please provide the

14 Defence with a copy.

15 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour, I believe they have been provided with a

16 black and white copy but not a colour copy yet. If we could next

17 bring up on the computer picture No. 18-15?

18 (To the witness): Mr. H, you see the photograph on the screen in front

19 of you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. There are lockers on the left-hand side of that picture as you look

22 at it?

23 A. Yes, yes, they were tin lockers.

24 Q. Are those similar to the lockers which lined the walls of the room in

25 which you stayed?

Page 4017

1 A. Identical.

2 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, I would offer that Exhibit as No. 262.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

4 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour, but please may we have a copy as

5 well?

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 262 will be admitted. Provide them with a

7 colour copy ---

8 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- of both, 261 and 262.

10 MR. KEEGAN: If we could now have photograph 58-12 brought up on the

11 computer, please? (To the witness): Mr. H, do you see the photograph

12 in front of you on the screen?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recognise what that is, please?

15 A. The door to the room in which I was.

16 Q. This photograph was taken from the garage area looking at the doors?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I would offer this photograph as the next

19 Exhibit No. 263.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

21 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour, but please may we have a copy as

22 well?

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan?

24 MR. KEEGAN: I was going to ask can that be marked and handed to the

25 Court?

Page 4018

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 263 will be admitted and a copy will be

2 provided to the Defence, please.

3 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. It is my understanding that they have

4 black and white copies now. We are in the process of trying to get

5 colour copies, your Honour.

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We do not.

7 MR. KEEGAN: It is my mistake, I apologise.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you need to hold on to the Court's copy of 261

9 and 262 at this point? You may, if the Registrar will allow that, if

10 they are not being used.

11 MR. KEEGAN: To ensure that, the question raised by Judge Stephen, could

12 Exhibit 260 -- actually it is a photograph, it looks like 1924, if

13 that could be brought up, please, which I believe is Exhibit 260? (To

14 the witness): Do you recognise that picture, Exhibit 260, Mr. H?

15 A. Yes, it is the same door.

16 Q. Those are the doors to the room in which you stayed?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE STEPHEN: While we are being architectural, would it be possible

19 through this witness or somebody else to explain these canals that are

20 always referred to?

21 MR. KEEGAN: It will be coming up, your Honour.

22 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: While we are being architectural, it would be

24 helpful to me for the witness to give me an estimate of the height of

25 the bottom panel on these doors.

Page 4019

1 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. (To the witness): Witness H, do you see

2 in the photograph the metal at the bottom of the doors, the bottom

3 panel which is painted red?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. Do you recall and can you approximate about how tall the panel was?

6 A. Well, about 40 centimetres, not more than that.

7 Q. Thank you. How full was that part of the room where you stayed at

8 the bottom of the stairs?

9 A. It was filled to capacity. I looked for a place somewhere further

10 away from the door, but I could not find it. There were people

11 already on top of the lockers.

12 Q. When you were sitting on the floor, was there room for you to spread

13 your things out and for you to spread out?

14 A. At night we would lie down, we stretched our legs one across the

15 other.

16 Q. The people who were on top of the lockers, did they have to sleep up

17 there as well?

18 A. They were there all the time, both day and night.

19 Q. What about the stairs, were the prisoners on all of the stairs?

20 A. Full, everything was full.

21 Q. What about the room at the top of the stairs?

22 A. Upstairs likewise, everything full.

23 Q. In that room that you were in, the downstairs and then the stairway

24 and the area at the top of the stairs, the room at the top, was that

25 whole area considered one room by the prisoners?

Page 4020

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So both the ground floor and the upstairs were considered part of

3 the same room?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Was each prisoner's space recognise as belonging to that prisoner?

6 In other words, if a prisoner left the area, could they return to

7 their own space?

8 A. Everyone knew where his place was.

9 Q. The other prisoners would respect that?

10 A. You had to -- there was nothing else to do.

11 Q. Were there ever guards posted as a regular guard post upstairs?

12 A. Inside?

13 Q. Yes, inside.

14 A. No.

15 Q. What was the ethnic group of all of the prisoners in your room?

16 A. Mostly Muslims and there were some Croats.

17 Q. I would like to show you a series of photographs and ask you if you

18 can identify any of the people. I would like this marked as one

19 exhibit, 264 and then A through K, please? Copies of these have been

20 provided to the Defence, your Honour.

21 I will need the Elmo. (To the witness): Mr. H, what I would

22 like you to do, please, is to look at each photo and place it on the

23 Elmo and indicate if you recognise any of those people and what their

24 names are.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I gather that is A?

Page 4021

1 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour.

2 A. I know this young man, Sakib Jakupovic.

3 Q. Was he in your room?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. KEEGAN: I would ask the record to reflect that he is pointing to the

6 young man who is basically in the centre of the picture, appears to be

7 wearing some type of sweater, jacket, with a red and white stripe.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will so reflect.

9 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, and B? If you could lower the lights again,

10 please?

11 A. This is Bahunjic and the first one is Grozdanic.

12 Q. The first name mentioned would be the second man in the picture in

13 the line. Thank you. And C -- excuse me, were both those men in your

14 room?

15 A. Yes.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, we wish to enquire where you are going

17 with this testimony, I suppose, and 50 minutes now almost -- I think

18 we began at 2.15 -- is this relevant and, if so, are you going to tie

19 it up with something?

20 MR. KEEGAN: You mean this particular naming of prisoners?

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.

22 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. We believe it is relevant to what is most

23 likely to be a required element of proving that if there was a

24 widespread and systematic attack it was against a particular civilian

25 population. This is evidence to go to affirm that element.

Page 4022

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So he is going to identify by the names and then

2 their religion?

3 MR. KEEGAN: Correct, and where they are from generally.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, move along. I have not heard anything in 45

5 minutes.

6 JUDGE STEPHEN: We have already heard endlessly that there were Muslims

7 with, perhaps, a few Croats. Do you want more than that? Do you

8 really want 20 or 30 names? Is that going to do any good -- names

9 which mean nothing to us?

10 MR. KEEGAN: Except that as opposed to saying that generally they were

11 Muslims in the camp, it was our feeling that it might be helpful to be

12 able to actually pin point that, have them specifically identified,

13 individuals.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What you might do, you have A through K -- of

15 course, we are taking time discussing this and you try the case any

16 way you want -- and there are pictures of numerous people. I guess he

17 is going to identify them. Ask him if he has looked at those

18 pictures, does he know the individuals in those pictures and then ask

19 what is their ethnicity or religion. Depending upon

20 cross-examination, that may not even be challenged.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If it is challenged, then you can come back and we

23 can spend 20 minutes and we can go through and name all of them.

24 MR. KEEGAN (To the witness): Mr. H, if you would, please, look through

25 the rest of the series of photographs, simply look at each photograph

Page 4023

1 in the pile.

2 A. There is a Croat, there is one Croat on this picture and then Sefer

3 and Emir and Mujo, Jakupovic, a young man of 15.

4 Q. If you would just look through the rest of the pictures first. Did

5 you recognise some or all of the people in those photographs?

6 A. Yes, I have, I have.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How many did you recognise and what is their

8 religion?

9 A. Perhaps not all of them but most, mostly they are Muslims.

10 Q. How many people would you estimate, from looking at this stack of

11 pictures, 264A through K, did you recognise?

12 A. At least 15.

13 Q. Were those pictures taken at Omarska camp?

14 A. Yes.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Finished, are we?

16 MR. KEEGAN: I would tender that Exhibit now, your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 264A through K will be admitted. Do not get upset,

18 Mr. Keegan. Really, I have heard almost 55 minutes of testimony; I

19 have not heard a thing really that helps me at all with any of the

20 issues in the case.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour.

22 MR. KAY: No objection to the Exhibits, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They will be admitted. 264A through K.

24 MR. KEEGAN (To the witness): From that room where you were sitting, Mr.

25 H, on occasion did you witness any beatings of any prisoners?

Page 4024

1 A. There was inside two.

2 Q. First, did you observe the beatings of prisoners out in the hangar

3 area?

4 A. I could not look.

5 Q. What do you mean you could not look?

6 A. While they are beating, especially if it is right in front of you, a

7 metre away, you just drop your head down.

8 Q. What would happen if you were caught looking while someone was being

9 beaten?

10 A. Then they would beat me too.

11 Q. Did you ever witness someone in your room being beaten for exactly

12 that, having been caught watching someone else being beaten?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you witness the death of any prisoners in your room?

15 A. I saw when they brought back the President of HDZ from interrogation

16 and he succumbed from the wounds he sustained.

17 Q. He was the President of the HDZ Party from where?

18 A. Prijedor, from Prijedor.

19 Q. On the day of the incident that you were forced to take part in, what

20 is the first thing that you remember happening that day?

21 A. They were playing music too loud.

22 Q. What type of music was being played?

23 A. Mostly it was those Serb nationalist songs.

24 Q. What else was happening?

25 A. Then you could hear, as they beat some people outside, you could hear

Page 4025

1 noises of different objects.

2 Q. What was going on inside the rooms?

3 A. People were -- people got upset, they were scared.

4 Q. What did they do or try to do?

5 A. Mostly what one, the best one could do was to get away from the door,

6 not to be close there.

7 Q. So where were people trying to go?

8 A. Up the stairs.

9 Q. Were many successful in doing that?

10 A. Well, those around the door, yes, they left.

11 Q. Did you manage to get up the stairs?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What was the next thing that you recall happening?

14 A. I remember when they called out people.

15 Q. Who do you remember being called out?

16 A. I remember Emir Karabasic, Jasmin Hrnic, Eno Alic.

17 MR. KEEGAN: If I could have this photograph marked as the next exhibit,

18 please? It will be Exhibit 265. (To the witness): Mr. H, do you

19 recognise the people in that picture?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you point to those people and indicate their names, please?

22 A. This man is called, his name is Jasmin Hrnic and the man next to him

23 is Emir Karabasic.

24 MR. KEEGAN: Can the record reflect that the man indicated as Jasmin Hrnic

25 as the tall man on the extreme right hand side of the picture and Emir

Page 4026

1 Karabasic is the man immediately to his left, a shorter man, who

2 appears to be in a black coat, shirt?

3 THE WITNESS: Yes.

4 MR. KEEGAN: I would offer 265, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

6 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 265 will be admitted.

8 MR. KEEGAN: Mr. H, what do you remember about when Jasmin Hrnic was

9 called out?

10 A. I remember that he was called out. First they said "Asko Hrnic"

11 several times.

12 Q. Excuse me, the translation of your answer says: "First they called

13 out Jasko Hrnic", is that what they said, "Jasko"?

14 A. No, Asko Hrnic, first it was Asko Hrnic.

15 Q. OK, beginning with an "A", A-S-K-O, Asko?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Then what happened?

18 A. And that is how it remained, they kept calling Asko until he

19 responded.

20 Q. Do you know where Jasmin Hrnic was in the hangar building?

21 A. He was right below where I was, the room where I was.

22 Q. OK. When you say "below", do you mean in the room next to yours?

23 A. It was not the first next.

24 Q. So two rooms away?

25 A. There was our room and then sort of below it.

Page 4027

1 Q. What do you remember about Eno Alic being called out? How was he

2 called out?

3 A. His father came for him.

4 Q. Did they have to go past you on the stairs?

5 A. First Meho passed alone, and then he returned with Eno.

6 Q. Could you see any of the soldiers who called these prisoners out?

7 A. You could see, but very briefly.

8 Q. Which guard could you see?

9 A. The one that was calling out.

10 Q. Calling out who?

11 A. Asko, Jasko Hrnic that is.

12 Q. What type of uniform did that man have on?

13 A. He had a blue shirt on and police trousers and white belt around

14 those trousers.

15 Q. Had you ever seen that man in the camp before?

16 A. Yes, I have.

17 Q. Did you know his name?

18 A. I do not.

19 Q. Do you recall ever seeing him in the camp after this incident?

20 A. I do not remember him afterwards.

21 Q. After the three men were called out, Jasmin Hrnic, Emir Karabasic and

22 Eno Alic, could you hear anything?

23 A. I heard inside in the room human wails as they screamed out and then

24 you could hear the blows, the noises.

25 Q. What could you hear them screaming?

Page 4028

1 A. They just screamed very loud, "My mother, don't beat me, why are you

2 beating me?"

3 Q. Did you hear the prisoners being ordered to do anything?

4 A. I heard that they were forcing someone to eat a pigeon.

5 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, we are about to get into a point in the

6 testimony where the witness is going to talk about his particular

7 participation. I would rather do it in one sequence. I am happy to

8 either continue on -- it should take 20 minutes.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We had planned on recessing, I suppose, at 3.45

10 since we started at a different time today because of the lunch. Is

11 that acceptable to you?

12 MR. KEEGAN: That is fine, your Honour. I just was not sure because of

13 the different schedule. I did not want it broken.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: At 3.45 we will recess.

15 MR. KEEGAN (To the witness): Mr. H, at some point were you and Mr. G

16 called out of your room?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How did that occur?

19 A. After that the noise, the beating abated somewhat and one of the

20 guards, a young man, came and called for two men to take some men out.

21 Q. Did you see this guard who came and called out for two volunteers?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you describe them?

24 A. He was young and he was trembling with fear, in a uniform.

25 Q. Did you recognise him as a regular guard in the camp?

Page 4029

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did anybody respond to his order for two volunteers?

3 A. No, nobody, nobody stepped out.

4 Q. What happened next?

5 A. Then somebody, a bearded person, came and shouted and said, "You and

6 you".

7 Q. What happened?

8 A. I probably looked at him at that moment and then he called me out.

9 Q. Mr. H, if you could please go again to the model for the next few

10 questions? Mr. H, after you left your room which way did you go?

11 A. From the room to the left.

12 Q. What was the first thing that you noticed when you left the room?

13 A. A lot of blood, puddles of blood, all over.

14 Q. When you came out of the room where were you looking? Were you

15 looking around the garage area or where?

16 A. Down.

17 Q. After you saw the blood what was the next thing that you recognised?

18 A. I saw the body of Emir Karabasic.

19 Q. With the pointer can you indicate generally where you saw that body?

20 A. Here.

21 Q. That was generally as we look at the model between the canals Z and

22 Y, close to the canal marked Z?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you just indicate in which direction was the head of Emir

25 Karabasic pointing?

Page 4030

1 A. This direction here, in the direction of WC.

2 Q. OK. For the record, that would be in the direction on the model of

3 the building, the administration building, in that direction on the

4 model?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Once you saw Emir's body what then happened?

7 A. Then somebody asked, "Whom are we going to take? What do we have to

8 do? Who is it?"

9 Q. Was there an answer?

10 A. Yes, "Come over here".

11 Q. Where did you have to go to?

12 A. Again in the direction of the toilet.

13 Q. Where did you go to? What spot?

14 A. We passed by this canal here and we stopped here.

15 Q. Which canal is that, which letter, canal Y?

16 A. Y.

17 Q. With the pointer, if you could indicate what you saw when you got to

18 that canal and where you were?

19 A. (Indicated).

20 Q. Let the record reflect the witness is pointing adjacent to the letter

21 designated the piece of paper Y?

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The record will reflect.

23 MR. KEEGAN: What did you see when you got to that spot?

24 A. Two more bodies.

25 Q. Did you recognise the bodies?

Page 4031

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who were they?

3 A. The first one was Jasmin Hrnic and the other body was Eno Alic's.

4 Q. Where were those bodies positioned?

5 A. Here.

6 Q. For the record, in what direction were the heads of those bodies

7 pointing?

8 A. In the direction of this large garage door.

9 Q. Were the bodies next to the canal marked Y?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Whose body was closest to the canal?

12 A. Jasmin's.

13 Q. Thank you. You can return to your seat, Mr. H. When you reached the

14 area next to canal Y where the bodies were, what were you ordered to

15 do?

16 A. To carry Eno Alic.

17 Q. Did you get a look at the man who ordered you to pick up the bodies?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you describe that man, please?

20 A. He had a military uniform on, a green one.

21 Q. Was he tall or short?

22 A. Medium height, neither short nor tall.

23 Q. Did he have light hair or dark hair?

24 A. Dark.

25 Q. Did he have a beard?

Page 4032

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was that the man who had picked you to come out of the room?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you tried to pick up Eno's body what happened?

5 A. I tried to pick him up under his arms and he was slipping, slipping

6 out. He was still alive and he was fighting back.

7 Q. So what happened next?

8 A. Then that man put his foot on Eno's throat, on Eno's neck, and was

9 pushing it up and down, so that his head was turning backwards and

10 forwards.

11 Q. You indicated the man put his foot on Eno's throat and neck?

12 A. No, no, Jasmin's.

13 Q. So it was Jasmin's head that turned backwards and forwards?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was he dead?

16 A. Most likely.

17 Q. So what were you told to do?

18 A. We were told to carry him away.

19 Q. Could you pick him up?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So what were you told to do?

22 A. Then we were again told, ordered, to grab him one by one foot and

23 another one by the other foot and to drag him out.

24 Q. Where were you to drag him to?

25 A. Out of that garage.

Page 4033

1 Q. Did you drag him down to the garage door?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was that garage door open?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were there other soldiers around in the garage?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know where they were?

8 A. There were also some inside the garage and out of it and in the

9 doorway. They were moving about.

10 Q. Were you looking around in the garage and looking at these soldiers?

11 A. Only in so far as I could while we went up and down trying to pick up

12 and drag Jasmin's body just for a moment.

13 Q. After you brought Jasmin's body to the door, what were you told to

14 do?

15 A. To take him back.

16 Q. Back to where you had picked him up from?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you forced to repeat this a couple of times, back and forth?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Then what were you ordered to do?

21 A. There between this back and forth, somewhere midway, they told us to

22 let him go, and to lie down and stand up, to do push ups.

23 Q. When you say somewhere midway told you to let him go, would that be

24 midway along canal Y?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 4034

1 Q. After you did this lie down, stand up and push ups, what were you

2 told to do?

3 A. Come to the canal, to the edge of the canal.

4 Q. If I could have photograph 18-2 brought up, please, on the computer?

5 Mr. H, do you see that picture in front of you on the monitor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What is that, please?

8 A. This is a mechanical canal.

9 Q. Is that a picture of a canal like the one that you now are describing

10 in your evidence, canal Y?

11 A. This one is nearer to this side.

12 Q. But were the canals basically identical?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. KEEGAN: If I could have this handed to the Registrar and marked as

15 266, please, Exhibit 266, and then handed to the Bench? I would offer

16 Exhibit 266, your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

18 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 266 will be admitted.

20 MR. KEEGAN: If we could have picture 16-11 brought up, please? Mr. H, do

21 you recognise that picture?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that representative from the upstairs in the garage how the canals

24 are situated in relation to the garage doors?

25 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

Page 4035

1 Q. Is that a picture of the canals inside the garage?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. KEEGAN: I would offer 267, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

5 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 267 will be admitted.

7 MR. KEEGAN: Mr. Bos, if that could be handed to the Bench, please?

8 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can you identify canal Y, just to locate ourselves?

9 MR. KEEGAN: I believe so, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. H, in this

10 photograph would canal Y be the one that is on the right as you look

11 at this photograph? It appears to have some type of screen on it?

12 A. I cannot hear the interpretation.

13 Q. In this photograph would canal Y, the canal we are talking about, be

14 the canal on the right-hand side of the picture as you look at it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. At the time that you were involved in this incident, that screen item

17 that appears on the canal, was that there?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE VOHRAH: It is more like a trolley.

20 MR. KEEGAN: Actually when you look at the photograph, what it is, it is a

21 grease trap, when they change the oil and they catch things. It is

22 removable.

23 (To the witness): When you were ordered to stand on the edge

24 of the canal, what could you see in the canal?

25 A. I saw oil and water in them.

Page 4036

1 Q. Could you tell how deep that oil and water was?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What were you thinking as you were standing there on the edge of that

4 canal?

5 A. I thought it was deep, so deep that we would sink down and that they

6 would push us down with their feet.

7 Q. When you jumped in how deep, in fact, was it?

8 A. When we jumped in it was a hard bottom and then I realised it was

9 not, that it was not deep.

10 Q. The whole canal itself, approximately, how deep is it? Where on your

11 body did it come up to, the walls of the canal?

12 A. Well, I was ordered immediately to lie down, perhaps up to here, when

13 I jumped down.

14 MR. KEEGAN: Let the record reflect that witness indicated at about

15 shoulder level.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: About?

17 MR. KEEGAN: Shoulder level, the neck.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I saw him touch his clavicle, is that it?

19 MR. KEEGAN: Clavicle, then fine, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know that it makes a significant

21 difference. OK.

22 MR. KEEGAN: After you were told to lie down, what were you told to do?

23 A. To lie down and crawl through that oil.

24 Q. What end did you crawl to?

25 A. I was crawling, the first towards this large garage door.

Page 4037

1 Q. When you got to the end, what were you ordered to do?

2 A. To turn on our back and back again.

3 Q. Then what were you ordered to do?

4 A. To drink oil and water that were in there.

5 Q. Did you drink that oil and water?

6 A. No, I just put my face down into it.

7 Q. What happened next?

8 A. I heard him call, "Hari, come here".

9 Q. Then what happened?

10 A. And somebody came and jumped down in with us.

11 Q. At the time did you recognise that person?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you later told what his name was?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was the name you were told?

16 A. Fikret Harambasic.

17 Q. Did you know Fikret Harambasic before the war?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Why is it that you did not recognise him on that day?

20 A. He was all battered, bloody, black.

21 Q. Was he naked when he jumped into the canal?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What were you ordered do at that time? Were you ordered to lick his

24 arse, Mr. H?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4038

1 Q. Was Mr. G ordered to suck his penis?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was the next order?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was the next order for Mr. G to bite his testicles?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. At that time what were the people around the canal yelling?

8 A. They were yelling "Bite, harder, harder".

9 Q. What was the next order?

10 A. A knife was put against my eye, and I was ordered to hold his mouth

11 with my hands and if they heard his voice they would gouge both my

12 eyes, not only one, and the other one to go on biting.

13 Q. Were you first ordered to get out of the canal?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Why did he tell you to get out of the canal?

16 A. As if he could not see what was happening down there.

17 Q. When you got out of the canal what position were the three of you in?

18 A. My feet were against the big garage door and the two of them were

19 there, more inside the garage.

20 Q. Were all three of you laying down in a laying down position?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were closest to the garage door?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Fikret Harambasic in the middle?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4039

1 Q. Mr. G between Fikret Harambasic's legs?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that when a knife was put against your eye?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you see or did you look at the person who put the knife against

6 your eye?

7 A. I do not think so. I did not see.

8 Q. What was happening at that point after you were ordered to hold

9 Fikret Harambasic's mouth closed?

10 A. Could you repeat it, please?

11 Q. What happened after were you ordered to keep Fikret Harambasic's

12 mouth closed, what was happening?

13 A. Then somebody put his foot on my neck and began to trample me, so

14 that my chin was rubbing against the concrete and it got all sore.

15 Q. What was Mr. G doing?

16 A. And he was doing whatever he was being ordered to, whatever he was

17 ordered to, he did it.

18 Q. What were they telling him to do at that point?

19 A. To strike this one, to curse his Turkish mother for trying to fend

20 off, to defend himself. That was it.

21 Q. Was Fikret Harambasic trying to cover himself?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What did Mr. G do?

24 A. He pulled his legs apart and his hands because he had his hands down

25 on his genital, on his organ, and he was striking at him, cursing, as

Page 4040

1 he had been told to, and went on doing it.

2 Q. At that time were people in the garage around you yelling things?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What were they yelling?

5 A. "Look at them, mother, what they are doing to each other. Can you

6 think what they would do to us if they are doing to each other this?"

7 Q. Were there a lot of people in the garage yelling at that time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At one point did you say anything to Mr. G?

10 A. I told him to stop, not to do it.

11 Q. Did Fikret Harambasic say anything?

12 A. He was saying, "He's not normal, he really wants to do it".

13 Q. Then what happened?

14 A. Then he implored them to kill him, Fikret did, with a rifle. He

15 said, "Don't, kill me with a pistol. Don't torture me like that", he

16 said.

17 Q. Then what happened?

18 A. Well, he did and then pulled it out, his testicle.

19 Q. Mr. G bit off one of Fikret Harambasic's testicles?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Immediately after biting off the testicle, what did Mr. G do?

22 A. He spit it out and that ball had fallen through the grate that was at

23 this big garage door which served for sewage, to drain the water out,

24 and it had fallen through and a vein or something stayed, got stuck in

25 the grate and remained like that.

Page 4041

1 Q. What was Mr. G told after doing that?

2 A. That he was free to go, that he could go inside now.

3 Q. What about you?

4 A. And I remained lying down.

5 Q. What were you then ordered to do?

6 A. I was told to drag him to the table, the desk that was there.

7 Q. What was that table normally used for?

8 A. That is where the guards used to sit.

9 Q. After you dragged Fikret Harambasic over there, what happened?

10 A. I pulled him up to that place, let him go and stood behind him.

11 Q. Did he say anything to you?

12 A. Yes, he asked me to get him water.

13 Q. What did you have to tell him?

14 A. "I cannot bring it to you, I cannot move away from you".

15 Q. Then what were you told to do?

16 A. And a soldier, one of these who had hit me with a rifle before while

17 we were dragging him to and fro, he told me to get lost because they

18 would kill me if I stayed there. That is what I did and I skipped

19 upstairs.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

21 (4.05 p.m.)

22 (Short Adjournment)

23 (4.25 p.m.)

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff?

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour. There is a matter I want to raise

Page 4042

1 before Mr. Keegan continues, that is, there is some confusion on our

2 part since we changed not having the witness in a separate room with

3 his image scrambled, voice scrambling, all that, but having him here,

4 we thought the voice would be outside so people could follow what is

5 going on here and, apparently, that is not the case.

6 We thought that that was not exactly what we figured. I think

7 the translation, there is no confusion if that would be broadcasted,

8 there is no possible recognition whatsoever. So if the version in

9 French and English will be broadcasted, people are able to follow.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is ESP. Mr. Wladimiroff, if I did not know

11 that you could not have been with us, with the Judges (and you were

12 not), we have been discussing the same matter.

13 JUDGE STEPHEN: He probably would not know what "ESP" means.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Extra sensory perception, or whatever. We have been

15 just discussing that very point. Thank you. Let me hear what Mr.

16 Keegan has to say.

17 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. We understood that it was going to be a

18 closed session, but we would be happy to have an accelerated release

19 of the transcript.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The point, and the reason that motivated our

21 discussion, was a desire, in principle, to have these proceedings as

22 open as is possible, because (1) the accused is entitled to a public

23 trial, and (2) the public may have some interest and in some national

24 systems there is a right on the part of the public to have access, in

25 some national systems. Of course, we do not have that in our Rules,

Page 4043

1 but the accused is entitled to a public trial, and that component is

2 going out.

3 If you have no objection, I presume we can make an arrangement

4 to have just the voice, just the testimony go out, but again with no

5 image, with no image of the witness testifying. There has been no

6 French translation, but Miss Featherstone says that can be done.

7 Fine. We will make the necessary arrangements to assure that the

8 audio of the testimony is released to the public as soon as we can

9 have a French translation as well, but otherwise the protections will

10 remain as is.

11 MR. KEEGAN: That would be only the English and the French translation --

12 the translations basically, not the witness's original statement voice

13 because he is an anonymous witness.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He did ask for voice alteration originally?

15 MR. KEEGAN: Originally, but his agreement working in the courtroom was he

16 agreed to waive that, but that was in terms of all of the people

17 present in the courtroom, not release to the general public. So if,

18 in fact, the only thing released is the interpreters's voice, that is

19 fine, then there is no disclosure. That is the only point I am trying

20 to make clear.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is what we were thinking about.

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is exactly what we are thinking about too but, your

23 Honour, would there be a problem not having a French interpreter but

24 starting with the English who are available?

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It would not be a problem with me, but my French

Page 4044

1 colleagues in the Tribunal might have a problem with me doing that.

2 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if I might, just to be clear, as I may be a

3 little confused, we are talking about not simultaneous broadcast.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, it will all be delayed, our delayed procedures,

5 half hour delay, as well as with the redaction, is that not so?

6 MISS FEATHERSTONE: I think that is only available in connection with the

7 video recording and not in the connection with the audio channels.

8 Maybe we should ask Gert Jan.

9 MR. KEEGAN: Because again he is an anonymous witness with full

10 protection, I would be very concerned about -----

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What we can do in an effort to let the public know

12 is to complete, at least, the direct and the cross-examination. We

13 will then have the audio. We will then release it after the parties

14 have had an opportunity to review the audio, to assure that there have

15 been no slips. That can be done very quickly, perhaps today, so then

16 we would have the audio. That would only be the audio in English.

17 I do not know how we would then be able to get the translators

18 to then listen to it and do the translation. I imagine that would take

19 the same amount of time that we heard his testimony -- no?

20 MR. KEEGAN: You would have to produce a whole new audio record.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am the one who always believes that there is a

22 solution to everything. If the desire of both parties is to have the

23 audio released in English and French, but at the same time protecting

24 the voice of the witness, we will endeavour to talk with the technical

25 people and see how and whether it can be done. Is that acceptable?

Page 4045

1 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour, that is fine.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Before we take any decision, we will tell you

3 exactly how it will be done. We would do that this evening and advise

4 you tomorrow.

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Right, your Honour. Thank you.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is the best we can do, Mr. Wladimiroff, unless

7 you can help me in some other regard?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We have a little preference in having the English

9 broadcasted. I would say that the right of the public to know, as you

10 described, is of a different standard than I do accept more or less a

11 sensible feeling of one of the Judges about the matter.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK.

13 JUDGE STEPHEN: It is not just the Judges; the French Foreign Minister has

14 strong views and so has the whole French nation.

15 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Absolutely, your Honour, but so far I have found that

16 since my French is not that excellent, everyone I spoke to in the

17 context of this Tribunal, French or not, they all speak English.

18 JUDGE STEPHEN: But they do not admit it.

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is not the point.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will get it done, Mr. Wladimiroff, I really will

21 -----

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: May I raise just in the context of this, I also learned

23 that having transcripts for the public is quite a difficult issue.

24 Whether that is true or not, I have been told it will take up to three

25 months before you will have that. That is in the context we are

Page 4046

1 talking now also a problem I may draw your attention to.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The transcript situation -- I do not know whether it

3 is three months. I think I would like to be proud of our Trial

4 Chamber. I think that we do a pretty good job. I do not know about

5 three months, though, but excuse me one minute.

6 Mr. Wladimiroff, what I am told is that we do not have a three

7 month delay, at least this Trial Chamber. It takes approximately a

8 week but, on the safe side, a week to 10 days. To go from the

9 transcript that we get after this proceeding, it is then looked at to

10 correct any errors and then after that the clean copy or the final

11 copy is prepared and the Registry usually has that in a week. The

12 Registry then has the transcripts and then the Registry makes the

13 determination about their dissemination. Have you been having a

14 problem getting the final?

15 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We do not have a problem at all. I am just passing to

16 you what we have heard from people from the audience. If there is no

17 sound, no image and also not a transcript available, you see, that is

18 the context why I brought this message to you.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I appreciate that. I will check into that, perhaps

20 talk with Mr. Chartier since he would have the contact with some of

21 those people in the audience. By tomorrow morning we will tell you

22 what can be done technically to achieve this purpose, to reach this

23 purpose, reach this solution.

24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know. We just have to talk to a couple of

Page 4047

1 people and see if it can be accomplished, but it is our desire also

2 for as much as possible to go out. OK.

3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We appreciate your efforts.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: For the record, I should make a statement -- I did

5 not want to interrupt Mr. Keegan -- by a majority decision of the

6 Trial Chamber the accused, who is in the court and has been in the

7 court from the beginning of the testimony of witness H, has not been

8 viewing the witness while the witness is testifying, but the accused

9 is hearing his testimony.

10 The accused’s counsel and the Judges and the Prosecution can

11 both see and hear witness H while he is testifying. So I just wanted

12 to read that into the record, particularly if there was going to be a

13 question about, now there may not be a question about the audio, but

14 only we would know what was happening and so I wanted to make that

15 statement. Mr. Keegan, would you like to continue with direct?

16 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. H, from the

17 time that you were told to put down the body of Jasmin Hrnic and go to

18 the canal and through the rest of the incident, did you look around

19 the room to try to identify who else was in that garage?

20 A. No, I did not.

21 Q. Where did you focus your gaze, if you will, where did you look,

22 during the time you were out in that garage area?

23 A. Mostly downwards.

24 Q. Why is that?

25 A. I was afraid.

Page 4048

1 Q. What were you afraid would happen if you were caught looking around?

2 A. I thought that if anyone would see me looking at them that I would

3 not fare very well.

4 Q. You testified that it was the man with the beard whom you described

5 earlier who gave you the order to carry the bodies?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. After the time that you were ordered to jump into the canal and for

8 the rest of the incident, do you know for certain who was giving you

9 orders? Did you ever look to see who was giving you orders?

10 A. No, I did not dare look.

11 Q. Do you have generally any idea of how many people were in that

12 garage? How many Serb guards or soldiers were in that garage during

13 this incident?

14 A. There were quite a few of them.

15 Q. From what you could tell, were those people, those soldiers, those

16 guards, the ones who were doing the yelling and screaming during the

17 incident?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic in the garage that day?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When did you leave Omarska camp?

22 A. On August 6th we left Omarska and the next day we went to ----

23 Q. Could you repeat where you went to?

24 A. On August 6th we left Omarska and on the 7th we entered through the

25 fence.

Page 4049

1 Q. To what camp?

2 A. To Manjaca.

3 Q. How long were you in Manjaca camp for?

4 A. From 7th to December 14th the same year, '92.

5 MR. KEEGAN: Nothing further, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination?

7 MR. KAY: Your Honour, yes. I know we are concluding at 5 o'clock this

8 evening, are we?

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We do have another matter at 5.30, I guess. How

10 long do you estimate for cross, Mr. Kay?

11 MR. KAY: I estimate that it will be somewhere towards 25 minutes to half

12 an hour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let us see if we can finish then, but you take your

14 time.

15 MR. KAY: Yes.

16 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

17 Q. Mr. H, as you told the Court, you knew Dusko Tadic as a man who lived

18 in Kozarac, is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The place that you lived, was that part of Kozarac? Am I saying

21 something -----

22 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if I might, part of the anonymity, of course,

23 is anything that might give away the identity. As the Court knows,

24 some of these villages are very small and it might be very easy, which

25 is why I referred to Kozarac area.

Page 4050

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In the report that you have given the Defence

2 regarding witness H, was there some mention of that, where he lived?

3 MR. KEEGAN: I do not have the statement in front of me, but it should

4 have been redacted, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let me see. The witness has already testified that

6 he knew Mr. Tadic and that he took lessons for a while, karate

7 lessons. I suppose that does not mean that he had to live in that

8 area.

9 MR. KEEGAN: He admits to living in the Kozarac area, your Honour. My

10 fear is that if he names the village, it is going to make it very easy

11 to identify who the witness is. That is my concern.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. The question has gone. What was the question?

13 MR. KAY: Your Honour, it was an obvious place for me to start at and

14 perhaps I can circle around in a different way. I apologise for

15 entering territory that we did not want.

16 (To the witness): If I can start again, Mr. H: It would be

17 fair to say that you knew Kozarac area well, it was your local area?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You gave a description of seeing Dusko Tadic on occasions with a

20 beard and without a beard, is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So you had seen his appearance in two forms during the time that you

23 had known him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you were in Omarska you spent your time in this area which is a

Page 4051

1 hallway beneath the stairs, is that right?

2 A. Next to the door and not under the staircase.

3 Q. Excuse me, if could I have that relayed back to me as I was put on to

4 a different channel?

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please play that back or repeat it?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Repeat it verbally? "Next to the door and not

7 underneath the staircase".

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Go ahead, Mr. Kay.

9 MR. KAY: Yes, thank you, your Honour, lost my channel.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It should be 4.

11 MR. KAY: Yes, it can get knocked. (To the witness): In that part of the

12 building where you were confined, were there other people from your

13 region also held there?

14 A. Yes, for the most part.

15 Q. Were you able to go upstairs to the place upstairs where people were

16 also held?

17 A. There was no room for that.

18 Q. As I understand it from the model that we have seen, there is, in

19 fact, a long corridor at the top of the stairs which then leads to a

20 bigger room, did you know that?

21 A. But that was all filled with people, one person on top of the other.

22 Q. Did you ever have the opportunity to go up the stairs and see the

23 rooms there?

24 A. After the incident I had I went upstairs.

25 Q. When you went up those stairs did you go down the corridor to a

Page 4052

1 large room at the end of the corridor?

2 A. I went through the door and went up the stairs over people and I

3 stepped over somebody's head or foot or hand.

4 Q. Was that the first time that you had been upstairs during your stay

5 in this part of the building?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you remember about how many days you had been held in this place

8 before this incident happened?

9 A. I am not sure.

10 Q. Can you remember how many days later it was before you left Omarska?

11 A. Somewhere midway, somewhere in the middle.

12 Q. Thank you. On this occasion when you and the man we call G were

13 selected to leave that area at the bottom of the stairs, it was a man

14 with a beard who came and told you to come out of the room, is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you remember what he was wearing?

18 A. A military uniform, a green one.

19 Q. Would that be a camouflage uniform?

20 A. No, no. SMB.

21 Q. SMB, the old style army uniform, is that right?

22 A. It is an old expression from that army.

23 Q. Yes. At that stage you left that room and went out into the hangar

24 and there you noticed the bodies that you indicated to us, is that

25 right?

Page 4053

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was the man with the beard who took you out of that room on his own

3 or was he with someone?

4 A. They were near him.

5 Q. About how far away were the other soldiers who were in the hangar?

6 Were they grouped anywhere?

7 A. More grouped but they moved about, they moved around.

8 Q. Can you recollect which part of the hangar they were, generally?

9 A. At the big garage doors, a little bit inside and then outside of the

10 garage.

11 Q. So, they were down at the other end of the garage?

12 A. It is all closed but they were at the door.

13 Q. What exactly were those soldiers doing? I am asking this from the

14 time that you first entered the hangar, having left your room.

15 A. I saw a group. I did not see what they were doing.

16 Q. You saw Emir Karabasic's body by one of the canals and were you shown

17 that or did you happen to see it as you moved through the hangar?

18 A. I recognised those.

19 Q. Did you have to do anything with that body or did you just walk past

20 it?

21 A. Just passed it.

22 Q. At this time the man called G was with you as well, you were

23 together, is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Still with the man with the beard?

Page 4054

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was he taking you then to the position of the other two bodies where

3 Jasko Hrnic and Eno Alic lay?

4 A. He asked us to come there and he was leading us and we were

5 following.

6 Q. He took you to the place where those two bodies were, and gave you

7 orders in respect of one of those bodies, the body of Eno Alic, is

8 that right?

9 A. Can you repeat the question, please?

10 Q. First of all, he gave you an order in relation to the body of Eno

11 Alic, is that right?

12 A. Yes, yes, to carry him.

13 Q. So he was talking to you and you were having to listen to his

14 instructions?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The body that you actually had to drag around, that was the body of

17 Jasmin Hrnic, is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You told us about going up the garage to the doors and back again

20 because another guard told you to take it away, is that right?

21 A. That is not what I said.

22 Q. Sorry, I thought that is what I understood. Perhaps you can tell us.

23 You were ordered to take the body up the garage, is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you had taken the body up the garage, what happened then with

Page 4055

1 it?

2 A. We were ordered again to bring it back.

3 Q. So did you take the body back to where you had originally ----

4 A. Not exactly. Somewhere around midway.

5 Q. Were the two of you carrying the body between you, one with the legs

6 and the other with the top part of the body or were you dragging it on

7 the ground?

8 A. Dragging it on the ground by its legs.

9 Q. The man with the beard, he had been the one who told you to take it

10 up the garage, but did he say where to and what you should do with the

11 body?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How many times did that happen that you went up the garage with the

14 body and down again?

15 A. Two or three times.

16 Q. Whilst you were doing that, no doubt you were able to notice the

17 soldiers who were there?

18 A. In that panic, on that fear, I do not know how much I could notice,

19 and one even hit me with a rifle butt as I was going back and forth.

20 Q. Those soldiers who were there, were there guards who were part of the

21 regular guards of the camp also at this place at that time?

22 A. There was a lot of them, there were guards. I knew the guards, as

23 much as I could see.

24 Q. Did you know if those guards were guards from a particular shift,

25 Krkan's shift?

Page 4056

1 A. Yes, yes, they were Krkan's.

2 Q. So you were familiar with the guards who were part of each particular

3 shift, is that right?

4 A. I knew for the most part.

5 Q. Can you remember which of the guards from Krkan's shift were there at

6 this time?

7 A. I remember the best this Bakal who was close to us all the time.

8 Q. Is that Bakal spelt B-A-K-A-L?

9 A. Yes, with a scar.

10 Q. A scar on his face?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you remember any of the other guards from Krkan's shift who were

13 there at this time by name?

14 A. No, I do not.

15 Q. If you did not know them by name, you were just familiar with them as

16 being part of that shift, would that be right?

17 A. Yes. I knew faces but not names.

18 Q. Would it be right to say that you looked at this man with the beard a

19 few times when he was giving you your orders, and you would also be

20 able to see those other people who were around him at that time?

21 A. It was all just for a moment, very briefly, in this panic, this fear.

22 Q. You, presumably, could not see everyone who was in the room but some

23 of them you could, would that be fair?

24 A. This Bakal was close. He stayed in my mind best.

25 Q. But one thing is sure, that the man with the beard giving you orders

Page 4057

1 was not Dusko Tadic?

2 A. I do not believe so.

3 Q. You never saw Dusko Tadic in Omarska, would that be right?

4 A. I did not see him.

5 Q. The last time you had seen Dusko Tadic he was wearing a beard, would

6 that be right?

7 A. You mean before the war?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How long were you in the hangar during this incident? Can you

11 remember how long the whole thing took from the time you entered and

12 the time you left?

13 A. I know it was just before the shift change and they changed shifts

14 at 7 o'clock, about an hour and a half before or two, I am not sure

15 exactly.

16 Q. You were there involved in this incident for how long?

17 A. I have no idea.

18 Q. The time that you were holding Fikret Harambasic's head, you had your

19 feet against the garage door, is that right?

20 A. Yes, not against the door, just next to the door. The door was open.

21 Q. G was down at the lower part of the man's body?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. This time that he was biting the man's body, can you recollect how

24 long that took?

25 A. A long time, but I do not know exactly.

Page 4058

1 Q. Say some 20 minutes?

2 A. I do not know, I do not know exactly.

3 Q. At that stage were these guards and soldiers around watching what was

4 happening?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was that in a circle?

7 A. You mean they were in a circle and we were in the middle?

8 Q. Yes, perhaps you can explain how they were placed when they were

9 watching what was happening?

10 A. How could I know since I was lying down on my stomach?

11 Q. But you were obviously aware that they were there and this was

12 something for their attention?

13 A. I heard their voices, how merry they were. They were saying, "Look

14 what you are doing to each other. Can you imagine what they would do

15 to us?"

16 Q. When you had to jump into the oil pit, again were they watching you?

17 Was this some sort of entertainment for them?

18 A. Yes, I was down -- yes, I believe it was entertaining to them, but I

19 was down in the canal, in the oil, in the water.

20 Q. When it had all finished you were allowed to go free. Was that the

21 man with the beard who set you free or one of the other guards?

22 A. Another one, it was another one.

23 Q. Did you know him?

24 A. I knew that he was a guard on a shift but I do not know his name and

25 his surname.

Page 4059

1 Q. You went through that door to your room and went to the level

2 upstairs, is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you were up there, were many people asking you because you were

5 face to face with the man with the beard, if it was Dule, meaning

6 Dusko Tadic?

7 A. They did ask, they all asked what had happened.

8 Q. Were they asking you if it was Dule, meaning Dusko Tadic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You always told them that it was not him, is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You did not know who that man was with the beard?

13 A. No.

14 MR. KAY: No further questions, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan?

16 Re-examined by MR. KEEGAN

17 MR. KEEGAN: Just one moment. One question, Mr. H. When you described

18 what happened after you got out of the canal and the three of you were

19 laying down, earlier you described that Fikret Harambasic was

20 struggling and that beating and force was having to be used. As a

21 result of that, were the three of you moving, do you remember that,

22 if that was the case?

23 A. Yes, we were moving. We were moving.

24 Q. Thank you. I have nothing further, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

Page 4060

1 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.

2 Examined by the Court

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. H, Mr. Kay just asked you if when you returned

4 the persons who were in the room asked you whether it was Dule Tadic,

5 and you answered that you did not know. Do you recall testifying to

6 that?

7 A. Not then, I did not see then that it was not him.

8 Q. When you returned to your room did the other prisoners ask you if it

9 was Dule Tadic?

10 A. Yes, they did.

11 Q. Did more than one prisoner ask you if it was Dule Tadic?

12 A. It was a group of people who were there in that section by the WC

13 where I had undressed and thrown off all my clothes and washed my

14 hands a little, and others gave me some clothes, so it was a rather

15 narrow circle of people who were around there. It was difficult to

16 move about because there was no room for that.

17 Q. Did they ask you if the person who did this, led you out, I guess, or

18 had participated in this incident, did they ask you whether this was

19 any other person by name?

20 A. They asked me if it was Dule.

21 Q. That was the only person's name they mentioned?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know why they would ask you whether it was Dule Tadic?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You have probably testified to this but I do not recall, how many

Page 4061

1 persons were in, if you can recall, this area of the hangar when G was

2 forced to bite off the testicle of Mr. Harambasic?

3 A. There were about 20, 20. I would not know the exact number.

4 Q. Where were they located, if you can look at what is on your monitor?

5 I do not know what Exhibit this is. Is it 267? Look at that picture

6 on your monitor, where were these persons, if you can recall,

7 positioned? We know that the canal with the screen, as it has been

8 referred to, is Y, I think, is canal Y. Where were the soldiers and if

9 there were guards involved where were they positioned? How far were

10 they away from Y, canal Y?

11 A. At that moment when I got out, I saw half of them in the garage at

12 the big door and half of them were outside the garage. But where they

13 were after that, where they moved about, I do not know.

14 Q. So was the garage door open then when the incident occurred?

15 A. Oh, yes, yes.

16 Q. You have referred to many of these people as "soldiers". By that did

17 you mean that they were not the regular guards at Omarska?

18 A. Could you repeat it, please?

19 Q. When you refer to persons being "soldiers", by that did you mean that

20 they were not the regular guards at Omarska?

21 A. Not all of them. That one I had never seen before or after.

22 Q. So some were the regular guards and some were persons who, as far as

23 you knew, were not guards at Omarska camp, is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have no further questions. Mr. Keegan?

Page 4062

1 MR. KEEGAN: Nothing further, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

3 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to witness H being

5 permanently excused?

6 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Witness H, you are permanently excused. You are free

8 to leave. Thank you very much for coming. We will adjourn until

9 tomorrow at 10 a.m.

10 (5.30 p.m.)

11 (The Court adjourned until the following day)

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