Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4555

1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T

2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER

4 Thursday, 1st August 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, yesterday afternoon you raised a

7 concern regarding the Prosecutor's way of objecting to questions. I

8 indicated at that time that we would take a look at the transcript and

9 perhaps better understand what your concern was. Would you like to

10 reiterate that concern? We have looked at the transcript and we think

11 that we know what objection led to this position that you are taking,

12 but why do you not tell us again?

13 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I will try to do so, your Honour. What I had in mind

14 when I raised the issue was -- I have now had a chance to read the

15 transcript myself -- page 2967 ----

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Line 21?

17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: 24, I would say. Miss Hollis raised the objection

18 saying that it was misleading and that "she was never asked if she

19 recognised Dusko Tadic. She was asked if she recognised anyone in the

20 photographs". If you look to page 2968, the next page, at line 11 Mr.

21 Kay resumes his cross-examination and then he asks, "Were you asked

22 when you were shown the book of photographs, Mrs. Jaskic?" Then the

23 witness answered, line 13, "They asked me if I recognised anybody on

24 that photograph". Yes, on that photograph. That crossed my mind when

25 I raised the issue.

Page 4556

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What we looked at was, and it relates to the same

2 question but a different portion of the transcript, on page 2967 the

3 question by Mr. Kay at line 21 is: "Did you not tell an investigator

4 for the Prosecution that you did not recognise Dusko Tadic?" Miss

5 Hollis: "Your Honour, I am going to object to this. This is

6 misleading in that she was never asked if she recognised Dusko Tadic.

7 She was asked if she recognised anyone in the photographs". Mr.

8 Kay: "It might be better if we hear the evidence from the witness

9 rather than what the Prosecution believes to have been said".

10 Miss Hollis: "Excuse me, your Honour, but on direct

11 examination the question was: 'Were you asked if you recognised

12 anyone in the photographs?' and her answer was: 'Yes, I was asked

13 that'. That is in evidence". Mr. Kay: "The Prosecution has asked a

14 leading question and sought a reaction from the witness in relation to

15 that question. The Defence are entitled to find out from this witness

16 what was actually said. It seems here that the procedure that has

17 been followed by the Prosecution has provided them with a

18 non-identification and there has been an attempt to try to put this in

19 a positive way, your Honour, which is a proper basis for the Defence

20 to explore what evidence is sought to be brought before the Court by

21 this witness".

22 So it seems to me that, first, Miss Hollis objected to Mr.

23 Kay's question as misleading. Mr. Kay then responds saying, he does

24 not say that it was not misleading, but he says that the question that

25 was asked of Miss Hollis was leading and that, therefore, the Defence

Page 4557

1 is entitled to ask this question.

2 If you go back to the question that Miss Hollis asked on page

3 2964, line 20, this is Miss Hollis: "Do you recall a member of this

4 Tribunal showing you a book of photographs on that day asking you to

5 look at those photographs and asking if you recognise anyone?" Answer

6 from the witness: "Yes". Question: "Did you recognise anyone in

7 those photographs?" Answer: "Yes". Question: "Who did you

8 recognise?" Answer: "I recognised Dusko Tadic".

9 So, in fact, it appears that Miss Hollis is correct in that

10 the question was: "Did you recognise anyone in those photographs?"

11 The witness says: "Yes", and then goes on, whereas Mr. Kay

12 characterised the testimony on page 2967, line 21, as: "Did you not

13 tell an investigator for the Prosecution that you did not recognise

14 Tadic?" which led to Miss Hollis's objection.

15 It appears that Mr. Kay's question was a mischaracterisation

16 really of the witness's answer. His response was, "Well, it was a

17 leading question. We are entitled to get into it". What we suggest

18 is that if a question is leading, and the question, "Did you recognise

19 anyone in those photographs?" is not leading although the previous

20 question may have some leading components to it, but if it is leading,

21 the way to deal with it is to object to it then, not to

22 mischaracterise the witness's testimony because that is what was done.

23 Do you understand what I am saying or am I talking too quickly?

24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I accept what you say, but that is not the point I tried

25 to explain to you yesterday. What I tried to explain to you yesterday

Page 4558

1 was that I felt that it was not appropriate to have the witness

2 listening to the discussion as you have just described on pages 2967

3 and 2968, because the witness from that discussion perfectly

4 understood what she was expected to say. That was my objection. I

5 rather prefer the witness not to understand what was at issue at that

6 time.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You would agree or would you agree that the question

8 was misleading?

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, but that was not the point I wanted to make.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. So do you want the lawyers to approach the

11 Bench?

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Or have the witness instructed to take off the

13 earphones.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. I do not have a problem with that. Do you have

15 a problem, Miss Hollis?

16 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Or Mr. Niemann, rather -- just with this procedure?

18 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour. There is no difficulty with that.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Then we will do that then.

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: As I indicated, feel free, Mr. Kay, to object if the

22 question is leading ----

23 MR. KAY: Yes.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- rather than approaching it the other way. I

25 will instruct the Prosecutor at this time in your response to

Page 4559

1 objections, even though they may be meritorious, attempt to respond to

2 an objection in way that will not clue the witness. If it appears

3 that the witness is being clued, Mr. Kay or Mr. Wladimiroff, then

4 object. At that time we will have the witness take off the earphones

5 -- I think that is an appropriate way to do it -- and hope that the

6 witness does not understand more English than what we think, but we

7 will do the best that we can under the circumstances. Is that

8 acceptable, Miss Hollis?

9 MISS HOLLIS: Of course, your Honour. Your Honour, I would please note

10 for the record that I was not attempting in any way to provide an

11 answer for this witness.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, that is not -- I do not think that was the

13 judgment of the Chamber. It was an appropriate objection. The

14 question is how should it be handled. I think we have explored it

15 enough. Why do we not just get on and continue with the testimony?

16 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. I guess we would have to note for English

17 speaking witnesses we would have to have a different ----

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I know that.

19 MISS HOLLIS: --- resolution.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You know I am aware of that. I am just pushing that

21 on to another time. We will come up with another way to handle that.

22 MISS HOLLIS: Perhaps those witnesses could put their earphones on! Your

23 Honour, yesterday we put into evidence Prosecution Exhibit 292 which

24 was the photo book that was used with Draguna Jaskic. We have made

25 copies of the book. We have provided th

Page 4560

1 copy and the book to the Defence to inspect the book and a copy,

2 and we have copies for each of the Judges. So at this time I would

3 ask that the Bailiff provide this Exhibit and the copies to the

4 Registry.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you continue with the Mrs.

6 Mujic's testimony, please?

7 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. I had completed direct examination of the

8 witness.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. All we need is the witness now.

10 MRS. SUBHA MUJIC, recalled.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Mujic, you understand that you are still under

12 oath to tell the truth that you took yesterday?

13 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Kay?

15 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

16 Q. Mrs. Mujic, before the conflict in Kozarac do you know how long Dusko

17 Tadic had had a cafe in that town?

18 A. I do not.

19 Q. You cannot remember when this job of a cafe owner was taken on by

20 him?

21 A. No. I do not know when he started. I was not paying attention to

22 that.

23 Q. Can you remember when a cafe opened at his house in Kozarac?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Had you ever spoken to Dusko Tadic?

Page 4561

1 A. No.

2 Q. Or spent any time in his company?

3 A. No.

4 Q. I would like to now talk to you about 14th June 1992 when you were at

5 the house of Draguna Jaskic.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you remember what time it was that soldiers came to the house on

8 that day?

9 A. Around 3 o'clock.

10 Q. Were you in the house at the time those soldiers arrived?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The women and men from the house were all taken outside the house at

13 the same time, is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At some stage the men were separated from you and put by the sand

16 near the barn, is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Whilst you were still outside you told us that Dule Tadic beat those

19 men from your house whilst you were there?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. That happened in front of you whilst you were standing outside the

22 house?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you remember what uniforms the soldiers were wearing outside the

25 house?

Page 4562

1 A. Black uniforms, camouflage uniforms.

2 Q. What do you mean by black uniforms that are camouflage uniforms? Can

3 you describe the colours for us?

4 A. Like dark blue.

5 Q. Was that the top clothing as well as the bottom trouser clothing

6 being dark blue?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How many of them were wearing this black camouflage uniform that was

9 dark blue?

10 A. I do not know. What do I know? I know there were two inside in the

11 yard.

12 Q. Those two came outside from the house, did they not?

13 A. One came out of the house.

14 Q. What happened to the other one?

15 A. He stood guard.

16 Q. Whereabouts did he stand guard?

17 A. He stood near the men and near the entrance to the house.

18 Q. When you were in the house did he stand guard there as well?

19 A. No, they went out to the road.

20 Q. You said that the soldier said that if you watched that they would

21 shoot you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were any soldiers then watching you to stop you looking outside the

24 house?

25 A. No.

Page 4563

1 Q. Were you not frightened that any of them might see you looking from

2 the window of the house?

3 A. What are we going to be afraid about? Our lives are not more

4 expensive than from our relatives and our husbands.

5 Q. The men who were dressed in this way, can you remember if they wore

6 anything on their heads, if there was any head gear?

7 A. Yes, they did have.

8 Q. What sort of head gear was that?

9 A. I do not know. They had something over their faces.

10 Q. Would that be masks over their faces?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How many of them wore masks like that?

13 A. Two.

14 Q. Were not any of the others wearing anything else to disguise their

15 faces?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So the man you say was Dule Tadic, was he wearing a mask?

18 A. No.

19 Q. The upper part of the clothing of the men, can you remember whether

20 they wore jackets or shirts?

21 A. Jackets.

22 Q. Did those ----

23 A. Like military jackets.

24 Q. Did those jackets have sleeves that covered their arms?

25 A. Yes, long sleeves.

Page 4564

1 Q. Were all the men dressed the same, with the same kind of clothing?

2 A. The ones that I saw, the only one was the one who beat them.

3 Q. How was the one who beat them dressed?

4 A. The camouflage uniform, a multi-coloured one.

5 Q. Was that a different colour from the black camouflage uniform?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What colour uniform was that?

8 A. Like green, like not a real green, but olive green.

9 Q. So you saw Dule Tadic beating ----

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. --- the men from your house ----

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. --- out outside the house is that right?

14 A. On the road.

15 Q. On the road. When you were inside the house, were they in the same

16 position on the road or had they moved?

17 A. On the road lying down.

18 Q. So when you were outside the house had they already started to beat

19 them on the road whilst you were outside?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Or did any of the beatings start whilst they were by the sand near

22 the barn?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You told us that your sister said, "Look at Dusko Tadic, he's hitting

25 our family, the husband, the father, the brother, everybody, is

Page 4565

1 killing all the family, the husband, the father, the brother,

2 everybody"?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But that was not happening outside there on the road, was it?

5 A. I am sure it was.

6 Q. But she just uttered those words to you? How did she say them?

7 A. "Dule Tadic is killing all of our family, the relatives and the

8 husbands".

9 Q. Was she crying or screaming, distressed?

10 A. How should she not be excited and how should we not have cried, both

11 of us, when he was killing all of them in the row? Would you not cry

12 or would you keep silent?

13 Q. From what you describe, you see, out there, there were no shots being

14 fired out there on the road. It appears to have been beating, kicking

15 and hitting that was happening?

16 A. In the house there was shooting which I did not hear.

17 Q. But that did not happen whilst you were watching what was taking

18 place in the road, did it?

19 A. While we were outside.

20 Q. That was shooting inside your house whilst one of the soldiers was

21 searching it, was it not?

22 A. Yes, in the house of my sister.

23 Q. None of the soldiers heard any distress from you and your sister?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You did not bring attention to yourselves whilst you were looking

Page 4566

1 through the window?

2 A. How should we? They would kill us.

3 Q. Well, you had taken that risk, you told us, because you did not care

4 and that is why ----

5 A. Well, that is right, that is certainly right.

6 Q. Because what I suggest to you is that in fact you did not see this

7 at all as you have described it?

8 A. Only if you can say that we were not there and that it did not happen

9 and that we did not exist.

10 Q. And that you did not see Dule Tadic there in Jaskici?

11 A. I did see.

12 Q. And you claim to have known Dule Tadic when in fact you did not?

13 A. I did.

14 Q. Can you tell us anything more about Dusko Tadic from what you have

15 told us?

16 A. I said what I knew.

17 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, any redirect?

19 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour, no redirect.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mrs. Mujic being

21 permanently excused?

22 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Mujic, you are permanently excused. You are

24 free to leave. Thank you for coming.

25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

Page 4567

1 (The witness withdrew).

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan?

3 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour the Prosecution would call Mrs. Zemka Sahbaz.

4 Mrs. Zemka Sahbaz, called.

5 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

6 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Mrs. Sahbaz. You may be seated.

8 Examined by Mr. Keegan.

9 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record?

10 A. Zemka Sahbaz.

11 Q. Mrs. Sahbaz, what is your date of birth?

12 A. 18th February 1949.

13 Q. Where were you born?

14 A. In the village of Jaskici, the Local Commune of Kamicani near

15 Kozarac.

16 Q. Is that where you grew up?

17 A. I grew up in the village of Jaskici.

18 Q. And are you married?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you have any children?

21 A. Five, unfortunately, four are alive and, well, I do not know what is

22 happening to that fifth. I still know nothing of his lot and this

23 uncertainty is terrible for me.

24 Q. Yes, ma'am. Where did you live after you were married, Mrs. Sahbaz?

25 A. In the village of Babici.

Page 4568

1 Q. Prior to the attack on Kozarac in May 1992 did you go to stay in

2 Jaskici?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Why did you leave Babici?

5 A. I went to my close relatives, to my next of kin. I had my sisters,

6 mother, brothers there. Where I was married there were more a Serb

7 population and, unfortunately, I saw them surround us with weapons of

8 all calibres. We could see the barrels of tanks which were exposed

9 and pointing towards our village directly.

10 Q. Mrs. Sahbaz, can I ask you when you answer to please speak a little

11 more slowly so that the interpreters can keep up with you.

12 A. Thank you.

13 Q. Where were you when the shelling of Kozarac started?

14 A. In the village of Jaskici.

15 Q. What did you do when that shelling began in that area?

16 A. I was at a loss where to go, what to do, nor did anybody know where

17 to look for shelter when the shells were hitting from all sides and

18 different calibres of fire could be heard.

19 Q. Where did the residents of the village go when the shelling started?

20 A. Wandering left and right. We could not go out anywhere as we were

21 surrounded in the fields, in the woods. You did not know where to go,

22 where to turn, where to look, to look to how to save your head.

23 Q. After the attack in the Kozarac area began did refugees come to the

24 village of Jaskici?

25 A. Yes, quite a number of them.

Page 4569

1 Q. When you went to Jaskici where were you originally staying, in which

2 house?

3 A. With my sisters for a while and when it began to overflow with

4 refugees, then a neighbour not far from there, the third house from my

5 sister, she was alone with her daughter and she came to the house. We

6 were afraid that her house would be set on fire because it was shot

7 and she was alone because they mostly set on fire those houses which

8 were empty. So we moved over to her house and were together with her,

9 so that her building would remain intact because we did not know

10 whether we would be able to go out anywhere from there.

11 Q. Mrs. Sahbaz, you see the chart behind you which is Exhibit 287?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If you could take the pointer -- leave the headphones on, please --

14 if you could point first to your sister's house?

15 A. This is my sister's house where I was during the first day of the

16 war.

17 Q. If you could point to where your sister's house is located on the

18 diagram of the street, identify which house of the red squares?

19 JUDGE VOHRAH: I cannot see.

20 THE WITNESS: Here.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the microphone, we

22 cannot hear her really.

23 MR. KEEGAN: Mrs. Sahbaz, if you could move on to the side where your

24 witness chair is so that you are closer to the microphone. If you

25 could again point to where on the street map your sister's house is

Page 4570

1 located?

2 A. This is my sister's house.

3 Q. And on the street map, the red squares?

4 A. This is Iso Nureski, that is the husband.

5 Q. Thank you. Now which is the second house that you moved to while you

6 stayed in the village?

7 A. Ahmet Jaskic.

8 Q. If you could point to the picture of that house that is on that

9 chart?

10 A. This is the house in which I was at the time when the army arrived

11 there.

12 Q. Thank you very much. You can take your seat again. What day did the

13 soldiers come to the village of Jaskici?

14 A. 14th June. I shall never forget the day.

15 Q. Do you remember approximately what time?

16 A. I do not remember the hour. I only know it was afternoon.

17 Q. What is the first thing that you remember happening when the soldiers

18 came to the village?

19 A. I remember first of all we heard a din and gunfire from afar, bursts,

20 individual from time to time.

21 Q. Did that shooting get closer to the village?

22 A. From the village of Sivci which is the adjacent village to Jaskici,

23 the voices were coming ever closer and when we saw that it was coming

24 near our houses we were looking for shelter in the nearest houses so

25 we were all inside.

Page 4571

1 Q. Did you later go outside of the house?

2 A. I tried to come out and I heard a very powerful burst, fire, and I

3 rushed out as if in ignorance to see what was happening.

4 Q. If I could have this photograph marked as the next Exhibit, please,

5 which I believe is 293, and then handed to the witness.

6 Mr. Sahbaz, do you recognise that picture?

7 A. Yes, the picture is quite clear, except that it was not like that

8 but, fortunately, I have had the chance to see the place and the

9 appearance and there is still the entrance of the house. I can tell

10 you where I was standing at the time, where I went out through.

11 Q. Whose house is that a picture of?

12 A. This is a Ahmet Jaskic's house.

13 Q. Mrs. Sahbaz, if you will, using the pointer again and pointing to the

14 picture on the machine, can you indicate where the entrance to the

15 house was? Point out in the picture?

16 A. One entered from the main road into the yard and from the yard, from

17 the lower side, up the stairs into the hallway. This was the small

18 wall. As you can see here there was a hallway. That is the place

19 where one took off one's shoes and such like.

20 Q. If you can just point to where the stairs were, please, and leave it

21 there for a moment.

22 A. The steps were here.

23 Q. You entered ----

24 A. In front of the entrance.

25 Q. --- into the side of that portion of the picture which is white?

Page 4572

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you came outside where were you standing?

3 A. We were standing by the end of this wall on the steps themselves.

4 Q. What could you see when you came outside?

5 A. I first looked towards the end of the barn which you can see here,

6 except that it is now overgrown by these shrubs and trees which were

7 not there, which were not there when I was, that I know. This did not

8 exist at the time.

9 Q. When you looked that way what did you see?

10 A. We saw an individual in a uniform leading a man by the scruff of the

11 neck holding him by the hand, with one hand by the neck and in the

12 other hand there was a rifle. Next to him was a yellow boy, he had

13 blond hair, he had his back turned on me. I could not see his face.

14 Q. The man you described wearing the uniform, what kind of uniform was

15 that?

16 A. Camouflage.

17 Q. Where did you see that man?

18 A. On the road behind this barn, at the very corner of the barn, except

19 that he was on the road and there was a fence here separating the road

20 from the yard of Ahmet Jaskic.

21 Q. Thank you. You can return to your seat now. The man they had by the

22 scruff of the neck, the man from the village, did you notice anything

23 about him?

24 A. I saw him bloody. His shirt was bloody and the nose, and that is

25 what I saw as I looked towards him. I really would not like to talk

Page 4573

1 about him because of the safety of his parents and things like that.

2 I know the name of the man.

3 Q. The man with the blond hair whom you also saw, was he one of the

4 soldiers?

5 A. I do not know him at all. All I could see was that he had a stick in

6 his hands.

7 Q. Did he have -- what was he wearing?

8 A. I am trying to forget it all. I do not want to remember everything.

9 It is very hard on me. I am a mother.

10 Q. I understand, but as best you can recall, what do you remember him

11 wearing, what kind of clothing?

12 A. I think he had a shirt. He had a kind of a shirt. He did not have

13 camouflage clothes.

14 Q. Do you remember the colour of the shirt?

15 A. I am trying to forget very many things. So rather than make a

16 mistake, he was dressed like that. What I looked at most were the

17 uniforms of people.

18 Q. What colour was the camouflage uniform that you saw? The man with

19 the camouflage uniform, what were the colours of it?

20 A. Many coloured, motley.

21 Q. Do you remember what was the primary colour in it?

22 A. Dark blue and coffee, light coffee, all colours were rather pale.

23 Q. In addition to those two soldiers, what else could you see when you

24 were near the stairs?

25 A. In front of Salko's house I saw that women and men were outside.

Page 4574

1 They were standing against the wall of Salko's house.

2 Q. Did you notice any soldiers over there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What do you recall that soldier wearing?

5 A. A black t-shirt.

6 MR. KAY: I am sorry to interrupt, I have just noticed we have lost the

7 transcript on our screens. I do not know if this is a technical

8 problem we should attend to -- sorry, Mr. Keegan about this.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Mr. Kay. We have stopped at

10 "camouflage".

11 MR. KAY: I am in the same position.

12 MR. KEEGAN: I did not realise it had stopped.

13 (The court adjourned for a short time).

14 (11.05 a.m.)

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, do you know how much we lost?

16 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. I think after that I simply went on to,

17 "Did you see anything else?" and she started describing what was

18 happening across the street at Salko's house. So I will just pick up

19 from there again.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, that is what my notes show.

21 MR. KAY: I think the colour of the camouflage uniforms, your Honour, is

22 the note that I have which follows thereafter.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think you are right. We do not want to clue, but

24 why do you not get back because I have some colours in my notes too,

25 so pick up at that again.

Page 4575

1 MR. KEEGAN: Yes.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I apologise for the technical problem. I am sure

3 you lawyers and everyone understands that we are making the best

4 effort we can. It was interesting that the courtroom was designed, it

5 is a wonderful courtroom, and then the equipment kind of keeps coming

6 in, more and more equipment, so it is difficult sometimes to reconcile

7 it. Under the floors here we have more wires -- sometimes that is my

8 biggest concern that a wire is going to creep up from under the floor.

9 So I apologise, but it is working, I think, pretty well under the

10 circumstances. Anyway, Mr. Keegan, would you continue?

11 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour. Mrs. Sahbaz, we did miss a couple of

12 incidents so I am going to go back just a couple of questions. The

13 man with the camouflage uniform, I asked you if you could recall the

14 colours in that multi-coloured uniform.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. OK. Again could you state what colours you recall?

17 A. Dark green and dark coffee.

18 Q. The other man, the blond man, do you remember what he was wearing?

19 A. He had a shirt and trousers.

20 Q. Yes, do you remember anything about those colours?

21 A. I think, I cannot quite decide whether, what colour. I was just

22 mostly watching the head, the face, the head. I was not that

23 interested in the colour of the -- I was sort of confused. I was

24 scared.

25 Q. You said you were mostly watching the head and the face of which

Page 4576

1 person?

2 A. The person who was yellow, the man who was in the shirt, and had a

3 stake, with a stake, that person. But his back was turned to me.

4 Q. In addition to those men who you saw on the road, did you see any

5 other people in the area?

6 A. In the yard.

7 Q. In whose yard was that?

8 A. Salko's, Salko Jaskic's.

9 Q. What did you see over in Salko Jaskic's yard?

10 A. Men and women who were lined up against a wall.

11 Q. Did you see any soldiers over there?

12 A. I saw one in black t-shirt who had a gun and was standing between

13 Salko's door.

14 Q. The translation says that the man was "standing between Salko's

15 door". What do you mean by that?

16 A. He was in the yard when I was looking.

17 Q. If you could, please, take the pointer and using the picture of

18 Salko's house on the big board there show where you saw that soldier

19 standing, please?

20 A. Right here, this is ----

21 Q. Mrs. Sahbaz?

22 A. --- this is the kitchen and this was the door and this is where men

23 and women were standing.

24 Q. You need to stand back so everyone else can see where you are

25 pointing, please, and that pointer pulls out further. Thank you.

Page 4577

1 A. Between the door of the house and the house of the -- the door of the

2 kitchen, the summer kitchen. Here he was standing. He was turning

3 left and right and he was holding the rifle at the ready when I saw

4 him.

5 Q. Very good. For the record, your Honour, that is the picture in the

6 lower left hand corner of that chart as you look at it, and the

7 general area indicated would appear to be what looks to be a white

8 door or a white opening in the centre part of the picture.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that correct, Mrs. Sahbaz?

10 MR. KEEGAN: The area on the photo you just pointed to is what we are

11 talking about, Mrs. Sahbaz.

12 A. The area that we showed of Salko's house. Certainly between Salko's

13 house and the kitchen, and then there was also a barn and they had a

14 well as well. It is all clear. He was moving left and right, but

15 when I first saw him he was there, then later he moved left and right.

16 Q. Thank you. You can return to your seat now. You indicated before

17 that when you saw the man in the camouflage uniform he was standing on

18 the road basically equal with the corner of the stable to Ahmet's

19 house which you pointed out.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you saw that man there, did you get a good look at his face?

22 A. Yes, completely, he was facing directly towards me.

23 Q. When he saw you what did he do?

24 A. When he saw me, before he saw me, he was looking in front of Salko's

25 house. I do not know what else, but when he saw me he cursed my son

Page 4578

1 and he said, "What are you waiting for? Why are you not coming out,

2 all of you?"

3 Q. Then what did he do?

4 A. "If I find anybody in the house, I will kill you all".

5 Q. Did he fire his weapon?

6 A. He raised the rifle and he shot towards the house. I do not know if

7 it was up in the air or on the roof, I cannot interpret that, but I

8 heard the noise of the rifle and I was -- I had already turned my

9 back, I walked into the house.

10 Q. After you walked into the house, did ----

11 A. Everybody was excited in the house. They saw what was going on.

12 They were looking at me. They were pale faced. They were scared. I

13 said, "We have to come out".

14 Q. Who was in that house?

15 A. They were all women and my son who was 19.

16 Q. Did everyone go out of the house?

17 A. We all came out.

18 Q. Did you go tell your son to come out?

19 A. My son came out too, my daughter told him, "I was too afraid, I did

20 not know where I was". I came out first. I came, I stepped next to

21 the corn barn and I do not know where everybody else. So I was first

22 next to Ahmet's gate and then behind me the rest followed.

23 I was closest to the road.

24 Q. If we could have the Elmo turned on again, please? Mrs. Sahbaz, again

25 looking at the picture of Ahmet's house, can you using the pointer

Page 4579

1 ----

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. --- on this machine indicate the general area where you were standing

4 when you came out that second time?

5 A. Yes, I can. When I came out this door, I came towards here where

6 these poles are. Now the corn barn is not there any more. I stood

7 here next to this pole which has remained here so that the truth can

8 be proven, and the rest were lining up. I do not know whether they

9 were towards the house or where, I do not remember, but I only speak

10 what I remember, from my memory.

11 Q. Thank you. You can return to your seat.

12 A. Thank you.

13 Q. When you came back out that time, what was happening on the road?

14 A. I saw men who were there in Salko's yard. They were all on the road

15 already and they were lying down on the ground, across, the one next

16 to another.

17 Q. In addition to the men from Salko's house, were there other men also

18 there from the village?

19 A. There were refugees. I was not at that time watching it. I did not

20 know them. The ones that I know are the ones who are from those

21 houses. Everybody was at home in that village, the inhabitants.

22 Q. The man with the camouflage uniform, where was he at this time?

23 A. He was still standing next to the barn but on the road, Ahmet's barn

24 by the road, and he was standing on the road.

25 Q. What did you then see happen?

Page 4580

1 A. I saw he nodded. He just pointed to the yellow one who had a stake

2 in his hand. He just did not say a word, just pointed with his head,

3 and this blond man took the stake and started beating up on people.

4 Q. OK. This blond man, which people was he beating?

5 A. The ones that were lying down in front of them.

6 Q. How big was this stick that he had?

7 A. Approximately, as I saw, I did not measure it but just looking, he,

8 it was going over two men and was reaching the third man, this. As

9 people were lying down he was beating over them, over their backs.

10 Q. How hard was he beating these men?

11 A. He beat with as much force as he had.

12 Q. Were the men screaming when they were hit?

13 A. Some that were not being beaten were silent and those who were hit,

14 they were groaning and they would raise their heads a little bit and

15 then their legs a little bit, but their stomachs were on the road

16 where the blow came as if they were arching, and then it would come

17 back to the ground afterwards.

18 Q. During this time, this beating, did you look at the man in the

19 camouflage uniform?

20 A. I was watching that person the whole time.

21 Q. Why were you paying attention to the man in the camouflage uniform?

22 A. I never knew that a time would come when I would have an opportunity

23 to say something like this. I did not believe it, that I will live to

24 see that, and I personally watched because of that, so that they would

25 execute the order that he was giving.

Page 4581

1 Q. The man in the camouflage uniform was giving orders to the others?

2 A. I was observing that the whole time.

3 Q. What happened next?

4 A. He turned into Ahmet's yard.

5 Q. Who turned into Ahmet's yard?

6 A. The person who was in the uniform, and told us to go into the house,

7 all of us, in front of Ahmet's house.

8 Q. Did you all get into the house?

9 A. As we were coming into the house, we walked one by one. That is how

10 he told us. As we were walking in, as my son was at the doorstep,

11 maybe two more steps to get into the house, he turned around and

12 looked to the road, towards the persons who were already on the road,

13 and he just walked back, just the same person who was in the uniform,

14 "Just come here".

15 Q. OK. When your son turned around and looked towards the road what

16 happened?

17 A. He called, the person who was standing in the uniform asked my son to

18 come to the road.

19 Q. Did your son then go down to the road?

20 A. My son, because somehow he came out bare foot and he bent down to

21 pick up the Adidas shoes that were there to put them on.

22 Q. While he was putting his shoes on, did he say anything to you about

23 the soldiers?

24 A. They were beaten continuously, the person who was there, they kept on

25 beating them.

Page 4582

1 Q. While your son was putting his shoes on, did your son say anything to

2 you about the soldiers?

3 A. He did not say anything to the soldiers. He just whispered to me in

4 a low voice, "Mama", as if he was less afraid, "Mama, I know one of

5 them". He was very pale. He was very frightened.

6 Q. Did your son indicate which one of the soldiers he knew?

7 A. He did not show it. He just said, "The one in the black t-shirt,

8 that is the one I know".

9 Q. Did he tell you anything about this soldier, about how he knew him?

10 A. "When I went to school he was watching our tickets, he was checking

11 our bus tickets".

12 Q. So your son was telling you that the soldier worked on the bus that

13 he took when he travelled to school?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. After your son got his shoes on and began to leave the yard, what did

16 you do?

17 A. I followed him.

18 Q. Why did you follow him?

19 A. I went, I almost went to the gate. I do not know what was happening

20 to me. I am not letting go of my child, whatever happens to him will

21 happen to me. My son is then leaving at the gate and I was about

22 three metres away from him. Somebody called out, called him out.

23 There was the hedge, it was trimmed. Then there were canals that were

24 dug out. So the road is much lower than the hedges. Somebody called

25 him and said, "Come on, forward". I did not see the man. I just

Page 4583

1 heard a voice as he says, "Come forward".

2 Q. Did your son then head up the road?

3 A. Yes, towards Kozarac, along the road that is the road that leads to

4 Kozarac, Kamicani/Kozarac.

5 Q. What happened to you in the yard?

6 A. The person who looked at me, I was already at the gate, I was close

7 to him, three or four metres, he kicked the fence with his foot, the

8 fence that was separating Ahmet's yard and the road. He kicked the

9 fence and the fence fell into Ahmet's yard and he cursed my mother and

10 he said, "Bula, have you come to recognise somebody?" He raised his

11 rifle. He did not shoot.

12 Q. Which man was it that did this, that kicked the gate and pointed the

13 rifle?

14 A. The one who was in the uniform standing by that same road, by that

15 gate in the camouflage uniform.

16 Q. What did you do then?

17 A. My daughters ran over and ran into the house and I simply was

18 completely lost. I did not know where to go, where to turn and I

19 would let him shoot.

20 Q. What happened then?

21 A. Whilst I was at the entrance, I paused by that window, by the window

22 of this entrance. My legs were trembling. I simply could not go on.

23 There I stopped, looked once again. People were, people were lying

24 there on the ground, were still being beaten and I felt sick, and I

25 know nothing else. My daughters took me to the house for a while. I

Page 4584

1 was completely unconscious and I did not know anything, where they

2 went, how they went, what happened in front of Ahmet's house. I do

3 not have any words about that.

4 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if that would be a convenient time?

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let us continue for 15 minutes and see if, perhaps,

6 we can continue.

7 MR. KEEGAN: Very well, your Honour.

8 Mrs. Sahbaz, do you have any idea how long you were in the

9 house after you went in ----

10 A. I do not, I do not remember that.

11 Q. Did you later go out of the house again?

12 A. When I heard cries of pain almost in front of the house on the road

13 between Ahmet's and Salko's house, then I came out.

14 Q. When you came out what could you see?

15 A. I saw Abaz Jaskic's two daughters, they were tearing their hair off,

16 each one her own hair, and crying. Between them was blood of those

17 individuals who had been beaten there.

18 Q. Did you go down to the road?

19 A. Yes, I started on the road towards Kozarac.

20 Q. When you first got to the road between Ahmet's house and Salko's

21 house, what did you see on the road?

22 A. I started up the road and I came near my sister's house, near

23 Dzemila's house, and there I saw bodies of dead people on the road.

24 Q. You described that when you first came out of the house you saw blood

25 on the road.

Page 4585

1 A. Yes, in front of Ahmet's house, between Ahmet's and Salko's house,

2 where they had beaten those people, the blood remained where their

3 heads had been. Their heads were turned towards Salko's yard and

4 house and their legs, their feet, were towards Ahmet's house. That

5 is how they had lain down.

6 Q. Was there any evidence of anything else on the road besides that

7 blood where the men had been laying?

8 A. I do not remember even how I reached my sister. I do not know. We

9 were totally bewildered. We were totally confused. There was nobody

10 to ask. You simply looked how to survive yourself, and we were

11 scared. We did not know who was where because one could hear shots

12 from every side. There was a lot of din.

13 Q. Did part of the road look wet like water had been splashed on it?

14 A. That is what we heard. I did not see it, but I was told that by the

15 younger generation, and none of the women talked about that, but those

16 who could bear it all, that is, those younger, little girls and little

17 boys, they had taken a pot which was full of water next to the well,

18 the bucket which was next to the well, and they poured it over people

19 so as to help them stand up. But they told me, I did not see it. I

20 only saw that the road was wet, and I saw blood, that is, I saw it was

21 damp and bloody.

22 Q. Where did you see that the road was wet and damp?

23 A. Right there between Ahmet's and Salko's house where people had lain

24 on the road.

25 Q. You said you headed up the road in the direction of your sister's

Page 4586

1 house?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that the direction of the road also to Kozarac?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In addition to the two bodies that you saw on the road, did you see

6 any other bodies that day?

7 A. On the other side.

8 Q. Where was that?

9 A. Behind Ilijaz Elkasovic's house there were more bodies.

10 Q. Could we have Exhibit 285, please? Mrs. Sahbaz, I would like you to

11 look at this list of names. Please keep it flat on the table while

12 you are doing so. Do you recognise the names on that list?

13 A. Yes. I do. Not all, but I recognise because they were refugees whom

14 I did not know, and on this first page I know all those people.

15 Q. Can you first tell us, please, by the number or letter the man whom

16 you saw come up the road with the bloody face when you came out of

17 your house the first time?

18 A. Just a moment. No. 7.

19 Q. Which of those names, again by the letter or number, do you remember

20 being in the group?

21 A. I do not understand.

22 Q. OK. Next I would like you to indicate by the number or letter the

23 men whom you saw laying on the road who were being beaten?

24 A. Yes, No. 1, No. 2 and No. 7. These are the three men I saw being

25 beaten up before my very eyes. Others I did not. I could not, nor

Page 4587

1 did I look.

2 Q. Do you recall whether or not in addition to those three there were

3 other men laying down on the road being beaten?

4 A. Yes, but I do not remember. I cannot recognise people as they are

5 moving away from that gate and I cannot see them. They are going up

6 the road. There is a hedge and you cannot see farther than that. It

7 is only those three that I saw.

8 Q. Can you again indicate on that list by the letter the identities of

9 the bodies which you saw that day in the village?

10 A. Yes, I can. Letter A, B, C, D, E -- these are dead bodies.

11 Q. Finally, can you list by the number the men whom you know were taken

12 from the village of Jaskici that day?

13 A. Yes, 1, 2, 3, 4, excuse me, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14.

14 Q. No. 13, is that your son?

15 A. Yes, that is why I stopped. I saw his name and my hands started

16 trembling that he is almost the last one.

17 Q. In May of this year were you shown a book of photographs by an

18 investigator from this Tribunal?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did the investigator say to you when he showed you that book?

21 A. He asked me if I could recognise any one of those pictures he would

22 show me in the album, "Do you know them"?

23 Q. Did you recognise any of the pictures?

24 A. Of all the pictures I picked out only one.

25 Q. Who was the man that you recognised? Where had you seen him before?

Page 4588

1 A. I had seen him in the yard of the road between Ahmet's and Salko's

2 house. That was the individual who was in the camouflage, in the

3 mottled, in the multi-camouflage uniform. That was a person I could

4 recognise.

5 Q. Did you sign the back of that picture?

6 A. Yes, I was sure that that could be that person.

7 Q. If I could have this book marked as the next Exhibit, please? It

8 will be 294 and then shown to the witness.

9 A. Thank you.

10 Q. Mrs. Sahbaz, can you please look at that book and then tell me if

11 you recognise it?

12 A. I recognise this book. It was with me and I looked at all those

13 pictures. This is the picture.

14 Q. Can you turn that picture over, please, and tell me whether or not

15 your signature is there?

16 A. Only if I take the picture out.

17 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, I would offer Exhibit 294.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

19 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 294 will be admitted.

21 MR. KEEGAN: I think I may have omitted to offer Exhibit 293 as well, the

22 photograph of Ahmet Jaskic's house. I would offer that.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

24 MR. KAY: No objection.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 293 will be admitted.

Page 4589

1 MR. KEEGAN: Mrs. Sahbaz, have any of the men who were taken from that

2 village that day been heard from, as far as you know?

3 A. One heard about and, lamentably, nothing I could learn directly, to

4 talk directly to that man, one of them survived.

5 Q. Have you heard from or seen your son since that day?

6 A. No, never. I have not heard my son, but I heard an individual who

7 had gone with that group that survived, and about my son what I heard

8 several statements that he was alive and he was coming to me.

9 Q. But have you ever heard from him?

10 A. Never.

11 MR. KEEGAN: Nothing further, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

13 (11.45 a.m.)

14 (Adjourned for a short time)

15 (12.05 p.m.)

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Counsel realises that we will not be hearing this

17 case tomorrow. We will resume on Tuesday of next week at 10 a.m.

18 after we conclude today's proceeding, of course. Mr. Kay,

19 cross-examination?

20 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

21 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

22 Q. Mrs. Sahbaz, did you know Dusko Tadic of Kozarac?

23 A. No.

24 Q. The photographs you were asked to look at in May of this year, you

25 wrote on the back of the photograph that you identified the date when

Page 4590

1 you looked at them, is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. From what I have seen, that was 31st May of this year?

4 A. 31st, yes, but I do not remember the month, whether it was May or

5 another one, but the date, 31st, yes. I omit a lot, I do not remember

6 everything, but I remember the date, 31st, my signature, but I do not

7 remember the month.

8 Q. Thank you. Had you seen any of these proceedings on television

9 before you looked at that photograph?

10 A. No, absolutely. I do not have the satellite dish. I have no

11 opportunity to watch. I am on the countryside in (redacted) and there

12 are only four Bosnian families and we do not watch. If I can go to any

13 of the (redacted) people, that is impossible.

14 Q. But did you see any of the news concerning this trial on the

15 television of the country where you are living?

16 A. On television we did not, only on radio, sometimes we listen. I do

17 not want to listen. It is difficult for me. I am a mother and I

18 avoid the news. It is affecting, as you say, my nerves. I cannot

19 tolerate that.

20 Q. But you do have a television where you live?

21 A. No, I have television but I do not have satellite, so I cannot watch.

22 Q. But the ordinary television, not the satellite stations, the ordinary

23 television that is put out in the country where you live, do you

24 receive that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4591

1 Q. Whilst the news ----

2 A. I do not remember. I rarely watch television. We go on walks. My

3 husband was in three camps. He is excited all the time. He does not

4 want to see or hear anything. There is a fifth year that our son is

5 missing. We are still uncertain. He has not seen his mother for five

6 years. He does not know whether she is alive, and if I should go to

7 watch the news I am not interested in that. I just save my head. I

8 turn away my head so that I do not watch what is going to be the dead

9 bodies and all that.

10 Q. But have you had on the television news about this trial, when it

11 started?

12 A. No, I did not believe that I would come, that I would be on

13 television to say something, but I am not interested in what other

14 people say, only what I need, what my interests are.

15 Q. Anything in newspapers about the case of Mr. Tadic? Have you seen

16 anything in those newspapers in that country where you are?

17 A. I did not understand anything.

18 Q. Have you seen anything ----

19 A. I did not hear.

20 Q. --- in the newspapers of that country where you live about this

21 case?

22 A. I do not read papers. I cannot read papers. I cannot see. I do not

23 have the glasses. I have been crying all the time. When I have to

24 see a picture, I am asking for a pair of glasses and I absolutely do

25 not read papers.

Page 4592

1 Q. Any photographs of Mr. Tadic in the newspaper that you have seen?

2 A. I do not buy papers and I do not follow papers, absolutely, only

3 pictures, photographs that I get from somebody, from my family. For

4 that I am looking for glasses, nothing else and then I borrow them. I

5 do not own one.

6 Q. Very well. If I can ask you some questions then about that afternoon

7 of 14th June 1992. You told us about the Serb soldier in the

8 camouflage uniform who was leading a man by the scruff of the neck up

9 the road towards your house, do you remember that?

10 A. Yes, I remember.

11 Q. Is it right that the man who was being held that way was Ismet

12 Jaskic?

13 A. Personally, Ismet Jaskic, son of Huso Jaskic, that is my uncle's son,

14 and I watched him bloody, in the hands of a soldier with a camouflage

15 uniform.

16 Q. Did that man have a hat on his head as well?

17 A. The first time I saw him he looked as if he was from head to tow in

18 the camouflage uniform, and I believed that he had something on his

19 head, some kind of protection. That is what I reckon was on his head.

20 That is the sense that I had.

21 Q. Do you remember him wearing a camouflage hat with a wide brim?

22 A. No. It was all one colour, that uniform, multi-coloured, as the

23 uniform. It was just as a shield from the sun. The second time when

24 I came out, I do not remember anything. I was just -- I do not know

25 what was on him. I was just following what he was saying because I

Page 4593

1 was scared. I was very scared. I was in fear all the time.

2 Q. When you said that he had a shield from the sun, is it right then

3 that you remember this man wearing a hat?

4 A. I remember.

5 Q. You do remember this man wearing a hat?

6 A. I remember. I think he had for a while, after that I do not remember

7 anything, but I remember that man personally and his face, and the

8 whole time I was looking not to forget it. I did not want to remember

9 it but I cannot forget him, what fear I went through and what I saw

10 there.

11 Q. If we can just consider the hat for the moment, was that a camouflage

12 hat?

13 A. I was not observing the head. I could not go around to survey it.

14 You can only look at the person. When you are quiet and when you are

15 in fear, you can just account for the moment you are in.

16 Q. Do you remember though that hat having perhaps a wide brim?

17 A. Yes, I remember.

18 Q. When you have given descriptions of this man, have you in the past

19 referred to him as being the man in the hat?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The camouflage uniform you told us about, earlier this morning I

22 understood you to mention that it had the colour blue inside it with

23 coffee and pale colours as well as being dark, a dark blue?

24 A. Green colour, dark green and coffee, which I imagine and what I saw,

25 and you can say whatever you like, that is your opinion is that, and

Page 4594

1 my mind is this, as I saw.

2 Q. I was just wondering because I was using your words from earlier this

3 morning that you said it was dark blue?

4 A. Dark green.

5 Q. Was that just a mistake this morning if you said that?

6 A. Not for me. Not my opinion -- not a mistake, in my opinion.

7 Q. When you say that you say this man and you looked into his face, can

8 you remember if he had a beard or not?

9 A. I do not remember a beard, absolutely.

10 Q. The other man you have described, the blond man, he was the man with

11 the long stick, is that right?

12 A. He had -- it was not a stick, it was a stake, what you pull out of

13 the fence.

14 Q. Can you remember the colour of the clothes that he was wearing?

15 A. I am trying to forget everything else. I remember the head and hair.

16 He was turned -- his head -- back was turned to me. This is what I

17 remember. He was not turning his face to me. As long as I watched,

18 he was turned to the back. He was facing Salko's house and the road.

19 MR. KEEGAN: I am sorry. Pardon the interruption, your Honour, it is a

20 redaction matter.

21 MR. KAY: Yes, no problem.

22 MR. KEEGAN: The time code is 12.11.42 which, I believe, was page 57, line

23 6 perhaps. Then I believe right after that there was a second, within

24 a sentence or two. The second one is 12.11.52, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to those redactions?

Page 4595

1 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They will be granted. Mr. Tadic -- I mean, Mr. Kay

3 for Mr. Tadic. You do not have a beard.

4 MR. KAY [To the witness]: Can you remember any other caps or berets that

5 were being worn by the soldiers that were there in Jaskici?

6 A. From that day my child is in my thoughts, and that case that I

7 experienced, that is what I think about, and the persons who behaved

8 in what way, I was not observing a lot, just the person most, the most

9 who was in the uniform, and the others I was not that interested in

10 because everybody was looking at him for orders to see what to do.

11 Q. So the man with the hat with the wide brim was giving the orders to

12 the others, is that right?

13 A. There was no white shield. I did not see any white shield.

14 Q. Hopefully, I did not say that but ----

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is a problem with the translation.

16 MR. KAY: I will ask that question again. That is right, you are saying

17 that the man with the hat with the wide brim was the man who was

18 giving the orders to the others?

19 A. Whether there was a brim or not, I do not know, but he was giving

20 orders. It was a shield like for the sun. It was, you know, this is

21 what I saw. But briefly after that I do not remember anything,

22 whether he had it or not. It is not that he was hiding his eyes, that

23 is all I saw, and then like the uniform, camouflage. Everything was

24 the same.

25 Q. So the hat was a camouflage hat, is that right?

Page 4596

1 A. That is right, like, like the rest of the clothes, except it was not

2 a hat, it was more like a shield.

3 Q. Did you see any of the soldiers with a red French beret?

4 A. Yes, one, I remember in Salko's yard, but as I watched very little,

5 I saw that.

6 Q. Did you see any others with red berets?

7 A. I did not. Just one.

8 Q. Were any of the ones in black t-shirts wearing red berets?

9 A. They did not, no, I did not.

10 MR. KAY: That is all I ask, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, any redirect?

12 MR. KEEGAN: No, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mrs. Sahbaz being

14 permanently excused?

15 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Sahbaz, you are permanently excused. You are

17 free to leave. Thank you for coming. You are free to leave, thank

18 you.

19 (The witness withdrew)

20 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, the Prosecution would call Senija Elkasovic to

21 the stand.

22 MRS. SENIJA ELKASOVIC, called.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Elkasovic, would you please take the oath that

24 is being given to you?

25 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

Page 4597

1 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

2 (The witness was sworn)

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated

4 Examined by MR. KEEGAN

5 Q. Mrs. Elkasovic, could you please state your full name for the record?

6 A. Senija Elkasovic.

7 Q. When were you born?

8 A. 28th January 1961.

9 Q. Where were you born?

10 A. In Brdjani.

11 Q. Is that in the opstina Prijedor in the Republic of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where did you grow up?

15 A. In the village of Brdjani.

16 Q. Did you also go to school there?

17 A. Yes, to Kozarac.

18 Q. Are you married?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you have children?

21 A. Yes, two.

22 Q. After you were married where did you live?

23 A. In the village of Jaskici.

24 Q. Do you know a man named Dusko Tadic from Kozarac?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4598

1 Q. For approximately how long have you known that man?

2 A. Well, about 15 years or so.

3 Q. How do you know him?

4 A. I knew him from Kozarac because he was -- he married from the village

5 of Vidovici.

6 Q. Before he was married did you know who he was?

7 A. Before he got married I knew him, I knew his face. I did not really

8 know his full name. But when he married Mrs. Mira, then I came to

9 know who he was and what he was.

10 Q. Prior to his getting married, when you came to know who he was, what

11 did you mean when you said you knew him by his face?

12 A. Well, you know, from Kozarac by sight.

13 Q. Did you know his wife, Mira?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How did you know her?

16 A. Because we lived close to each other and we almost grew up together.

17 Q. Is Vidovici a part of Brdjani?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you live close to Mira when you were children?

20 A. Yes, we were -- we lived near each other.

21 Q. When did you find out Dusko Tadic's name?

22 A. When I learned that, well, when he and Mira got married.

23 Q. Did you ever personally meet Dusko Tadic?

24 A. No, only in passing.

25 Q. Did you on occasion exchange greetings with he and Mira?

Page 4599

1 A. I said "Hello", "Good afternoon", "How are you?" in passing.

2 Q. Where would you exchange those greetings?

3 A. Well, say, depends, in Kozarac if we were to meet there, in Vidovici

4 and like that.

5 Q. Do you know where Dusko Tadic and his wife, Mira, lived in Kozarac?

6 A. Yes. In Kozarac they lived across the pharmacy.

7 Q. Do you know what Dusko Tadic did for an occupation?

8 A. He was a karate -- engaged in karate, and he had his coffee bar,

9 coffee bar, and things like that.

10 Q. Do you know what Mira Tadic did for work in the area?

11 A. Yes, she was in the dispensary. She was a nurse.

12 Q. Do you know whether they had any children?

13 A. Yes, they had two daughters.

14 Q. Before the war did you ever see Dusko Tadic with a beard?

15 A. Before the war, yes, I used to see him with a beard, without a

16 beard.

17 Q. Could I have Exhibit 269 shown to the witness, please? If that could

18 be placed on the Elmo, please?

19 A. This is ----

20 Q. Just a moment, please. With the Elmo switched on, please? Thank you.

21 A. Dusko Tadic.

22 Q. Do you recognise the other person in the photograph?

23 A. Emir Karabasic.

24 Q. How do you know Emir Karabasic, Mrs. Elkasovic?

25 A. He was also in Brdjani and I would walk past his house.

Page 4600

1 Q. Thank you. Do you recall when the war started in Kozarac?

2 A. On 24th May '92.

3 Q. Where were you when the shelling started?

4 A. When the shelling started, I was in my field, I was digging there,

5 working with the corn.

6 Q. What did you do when that shelling started?

7 A. My husband came and said, "Leave that, get away".

8 Q. Where did the people in the village of Jaskici go during the

9 shelling?

10 A. Well, they all went to look for shelter, home.

11 Q. Did they go to any particular homes in the village?

12 A. Well, it depended how they managed. Some went to Abaz Jaskic. Those

13 who were closer to Sivci, fled to Sivci and so on.

14 Q. Why would they go to Abaz Jaskic's house?

15 A. Because it was the most solid house that there was there.

16 Q. Why did the others flee to Sivci?

17 A. Well, it depended where each one of the people were, I mean, so they

18 were escaping. We were not all in one and the same place.

19 Q. Did you stay in those places where you escaped to the whole time or

20 did you return to your own homes?

21 A. That day I spent there all the time and then we went to Sivci and

22 then again came back home. So that we went to Sivci and to Abaz's

23 house and back to our homes until the shelling stopped.

24 Q. When you went to Sivci where would you stay?

25 A. I went to, what's his name, to Sadik Sivac's house.

Page 4601

1 Q. Why did you go to that particular house?

2 A. Well, it was also a solid house, a big house. There were many of us

3 there and that is why we went there.

4 Q. Over the next few days while the attack in Kozarac was ongoing, did

5 refugees come to your village?

6 A. Yes, indeed, they came to -- the refugees to me, my parents, mother,

7 brother, sister-in-law from Brdjani came to me.

8 Q. What about the other houses in the villages, did refugees also coming

9 to those houses?

10 A. Yes, in all the houses, whoever had somebody, refugees came to him.

11 Q. Where did those refugees come from?

12 A. Well, let us see, there were refugees from Brdjani, from Kamicani,

13 from Jakupovici, from Kozarusa, Besici, from all over the place.

14 Whoever had kin there, they came.

15 Q. What was the ethnic group of those refugees who came to your village?

16 A. I do not understand.

17 Q. The nationality?

18 A. Oh, Muslims.

19 Q. What is your nationality?

20 A. Muslim.

21 Q. That of the other families that lived in the village?

22 A. Our village?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. In our village they were Muslims. There was only one household, a

25 Ukrainian one.

Page 4602

1 Q. Which house was that?

2 A. That was Jozo Orlovski's household.

3 Q. Before the day that the soldiers came to Jaskici, how many of the

4 families who lived in Jaskici left the village?

5 A. From four houses when the cleansing passed, in five houses there were

6 still people in them. Huso Jaskic's family left all. He stayed alone

7 in the house.

8 Q. Were there any checkpoints in the village or near the village?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Were any of the men of the village patrolling the village with

11 weapons?

12 A. You mean our men?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. No.

15 Q. What day did the soldiers come to the village?

16 A. 14th June '92.

17 Q. Approximately, what time did they come?

18 A. Sometime between 2.00 and 3.00.

19 Q. What is the first thing that you remember happening when the soldiers

20 came to the village?

21 A. The first thing I remember was a shot fired behind my house. It was

22 very close. My husband came out to look from the bedroom, and when he

23 looked he saw the army coming to the house and he said, "Here they

24 come". Then all of us who were there, we stood up, we jumped up. My

25 child was asleep at the time, so I went to him. I took the child, and

Page 4603

1 we started for the hallway to come out at that moment, but before that

2 we heard them shouting, "Is there anyone at home?" and we shouted

3 "Yes". We shouted back, "Yes", and we started for the hallway.

4 Q. Mrs. Elkasovic, when your husband looked out of the window after

5 hearing the shot, where would he have been looking towards?

6 A. In the direction behind my house, towards the field.

7 Q. OK. Was there a village on the other side of that field?

8 A. There was a forest behind the field and then the village of Sivci.

9 Q. If you could, please, using that pointer which is next to you on the

10 table, point on the chart there which house is your house, that is

11 Exhibit 287?

12 A. [The witness indicated on the chart] My house.

13 Q. Mrs. Elkasovic, if you could step back away from the diagram, please,

14 so people can see where you are pointing and if you could also point

15 now ----

16 A. My house.

17 Q. --- on the street map the red squares which house is yours?

18 A. [The witness indicated on the chart]. This.

19 Q. Just for the record, on those pictures that you see in that diagram

20 which is the house of Jozo Orlovski?

21 A. [The witness indicated].

22 Q. And which picture?

23 A. [The witness indicated].

24 Q. Thank you. You can return to your seat. Do you know what the

25 nationality of Jozo Orlovski was?

Page 4604

1 A. Jovo Orlovski, who is that Jovo?

2 Q. Jozo.

3 A. Jozo, well, from what I know, he is Ukrainian, but I do not know much

4 about these things.

5 Q. You said that you started down the hall after someone yelled whether

6 there was anyone in the house. What happened next?

7 A. Well, when we started, I saw two barrels from my entrance, from my

8 front door, and then, of course, all of us, women and children and

9 men, and then a soldier, "Women and children back, men forward".

10 Q. You said you saw two barrels from your entrance, what kind of

11 barrels?

12 A. Oh, they were rifles but I know nothing about rifles.

13 Q. Those rifles were pointing into your house?

14 A. Into my hallway through the one that we were trying to come out of.

15 Q. After the soldier then yelled, "Women and children back, men

16 forward", what happened?

17 A. Men stepped out. We returned into the hallway and a soldier

18 followed.

19 Q. If I could have this photograph marked as the next exhibit, 295, and

20 then handed to the witness? Mrs. Elkasovic, do you recognise that

21 picture?

22 A. I recognise it. It is my house.

23 Q. May that be placed on the Elmo, please?

24 A. This is my house.

25 Q. Mrs. Elkasovic, could you first indicate, please, where the entrance

Page 4605

1 to your house was, the front door as you referred to?

2 A. Here, where these people are.

3 Q. As the men from your house went out, you say a soldier came in?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Which men left your house that day?

6 A. My husband, Ilijaz Elkasovic, my brother, Senad Majdanac, my

7 brother-in-law, Fehim Turkanovic, left the house.

8 Q. After the soldier came in, what did he tell the women and children to

9 do?

10 A. He shouted and said, "Quicker, you must all go down to the floor and

11 that is where you will stay", women entered -- as they arrived one by

12 one, so we entered. I entered my kitchen and I went to the window.

13 As I was coming towards the window, I looked through it. I wanted to

14 know where individuals from my house were going. As I was looking to

15 where they were going, I saw Dusko Tadic standing in my yard.

16 Q. Mrs. Elkasovic, if you could, please, on the picture indicate which

17 window it was that you were looking out of?

18 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph] Out of this window.

19 Q. For the record, your Honour, that would be the window on the right as

20 we look at the photograph. Thank you. As you entered that room and

21 were looking out of the window, what were you being told to do by the

22 soldier?

23 A. He said that I had to lie down too. I was carrying the child in my

24 arms, so I laid the child beside me and went down too.

25 Q. When you looked out that window did you get a clear view of Dusko

Page 4606

1 Tadic?

2 A. Yes, very clear and very near.

3 Q. Can you indicate on the picture approximately where he was standing

4 when you saw him?

5 A. So the entrance into my house was here and men were coming here

6 towards the middle, and there was, somewhere here was the exit to the

7 road, and Dusko Tadic was more or less standing like this.

8 Q. So, approximately in the centre of the grassy area of that picture as

9 we look at it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did the men who came out of your house pass in front of Tadic, that

12 is, between Dusko Tadic and the window that you were looking out of or

13 on the other side?

14 A. They passed in front of him.

15 Q. So they passed between Dusko Tadic and the window?

16 A. I was in the house and they were outside. They walked past by him in

17 front of him. They passed in front of this window. They went by this

18 window like this, say from here to here. That is how they went.

19 Q. So when the men walked by, did they block your view of Dusko Tadic?

20 A. I saw in person, he was turned towards the window as he was meeting

21 them.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, would you ask the witness to point again

23 the way that the soldiers came? I glanced away and did not notice it.

24 I apologise.

25 MR. KEEGAN: OK. Mrs. Elkasovic, could you please indicate again how the

Page 4607

1 men came out of your house and exited your yard, left your yard?

2 A. They were coming from here where the entrance was and there was a

3 path here to come out. That is my exit to the road. From here they

4 went in this direction and Mr. Tadic was here. So that from through

5 this window here, I saw with my own eyes the person whom I recognised,

6 and a soldier who was following them had his back to me so I could not

7 recognise him.

8 Q. The soldier who was escorting the men from your house?

9 A. Yes, he was following the three of them.

10 Q. When the men were leaving your house what was Dusko Tadic doing?

11 A. Well, then I had to lie down and I do not know what happened next. I

12 mean, the only look I got was when I looked through the window. That

13 was the only glance I had.

14 Q. That is the time I am referring to. When you saw him what was Dusko

15 Tadic doing?

16 A. Standing.

17 Q. Do you recall how he was dressed when you saw him?

18 A. He had a many coloured suit.

19 Q. What do you mean by a "many coloured suit"?

20 A. Well, you know, their mottled clothes, camouflage, those of many

21 colours, military.

22 Q. Was it a uniform or civilian clothes?

23 A. Uniform, military, army uniform of their -- that uniform. I mean,

24 they all had clothes like that.

25 Q. What colours? You indicated that it was multi-coloured camouflage,

Page 4608

1 what were the colours in that uniform?

2 A. Well, listen, what were those colours? Those colours were, you know,

3 something between coffee and coffee with milk. I mean, how shall I

4 explain it?

5 Q. Do you recall any other colours other than this coffee colour?

6 A. Well, you know, some were lighter, some paler. There were those many

7 colours.

8 Q. After you laid down, what was the next thing that you recall?

9 A. When I laid down on the floor the soldier that entered the house with

10 us walked around over us, looking for money, for jewellery, opened our

11 wardrobes, emptied drawers. So he walked around the house, yelling,

12 shouting. Then I heard from the road a lot of noise, screaming and

13 such like.

14 Q. Did the soldier who was in your house say anything to you?

15 A. Yes, he did. He insulted us. He said that this was not our place,

16 that we were not going to be there, that we were to be off to Turkey,

17 cursing our mothers, abusing us in all sorts of ways.

18 Q. Did he say anything about looking at him?

19 A. Yes, he said, "Who looks at me will have her throat cut".

20 Q. Did he say anything about what he would do if he found anyone else in

21 the house?

22 A. Yes, he went around, searched. He went out in the hallway, around

23 the rooms, "Is there anybody hiding? If I find anyone, I will cut his

24 throat, I will kill him".

25 Q. Did you get an opportunity to see what that man was wearing?

Page 4609

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. What was he ----

3 A. He had, he also had that multi-coloured clothes and the military

4 boots, and a big knife suspended on his belt and he had a sort of a

5 red cap on his head.

6 Q. Do you recall what colours were in the multi-coloured clothes that he

7 was wearing?

8 A. I am telling -- to tell you that I really donít remember his colours,

9 you know, I did not have much time to pay any attention. I know it

10 was also various colours. It was also somewhere between coffee and

11 coffee with milk.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, we will stand in recess until 2.30.

13 (1.00 p.m.)

14 (Luncheon Adjournment)

15

16 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, would you continue?

18 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour. Mrs. Elkasovic, when we broke for

19 the lunch recess we were talking about the colour of the camouflage

20 uniform which you saw Mr. Tadic wearing. Could I have Exhibit 139

21 shown to the witness and have that photograph brought up on the

22 monitor, please? I appreciate that it is a little bit difficult to

23 see on the monitor. I will have the photograph delivered to the Bench

24 once the witness has dealt with it, your Honour.

25 Mrs. Elkasovic, is the camouflage uniform which you saw Mr.

Page 4610

1 Tadic wearing of the same type of colour you see in the one in that

2 picture, Exhibit 139?

3 A. No, no.

4 Q. What colour was the camouflage uniform that Mr. Tadic was wearing?

5 A. Green-ish colour and white coffee.

6 Q. Could I have that photograph delivered to the Bench, please? Mrs.

7 Elkasovic, when you and the other women in your house were lying down

8 on the floor, did you hear anything happening outside the house?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What could you hear, please?

11 A. I heard some noise, voices, shouts, and I heard where some soldier

12 yelled, "Don't lift your head", and at that point the shots started.

13 However, my mother got up to sit down and said, "They are killing

14 them", and then the soldier that was in my house came and ran over to

15 her and pointed, turned a rifle around and said, "Lie down where you

16 are or else I will kill you, I will cut your throats". Naturally, she

17 had to go where she was originally, and so on.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you hear the witness? Perhaps the witness

19 should speak up just a little bit and Mr. Bos maybe .....

20 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Mrs. Elkasovic, did you know when the soldier left your

22 house?

23 A. Well, I assumed that he left when I heard that you could not hear the

24 steps around the house any more. Then I imagined that he may have

25 left. Then I crawled to the door, and I looked out around the hallway

Page 4611

1 and looked into the room and saw that he was not there. Then I went

2 back and I rose up to the window and looked towards the road, what was

3 going on.

4 Q. What could you see when you looked outside?

5 A. I saw that the military and the people who lived there, that they are

6 moving away from my house. They were going away.

7 Q. In which direction were the men moving?

8 A. They went down the road. I saw them by the house of Zijad Elkasovic.

9 Q. In what direction were they moving past Zijad Elkasovic ----

10 A. Towards Kozarac.

11 Q. If you could, with that pointer indicate on the map of the street in

12 which direction is Kozarac from the village?

13 A. This way.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We cannot see.

15 MR. KEEGAN: If you could just step a little bit from the diagram when you

16 do that so that the people on the other side of the room can see? For

17 the record, your Honour, I would indicate the witness has indicated as

18 you look at the chart upward in the direction towards the word

19 "Jaskici" from the house marked Zijad Elkasovic.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you. You can return to your seat. Did you recognise

22 any of the men from the village who were in that group which was

23 leading?

24 A. Yes, I recognised two young men.

25 Q. How could you recognise them?

Page 4612

1 A. By their shirts.

2 Q. Did you go outside right away?

3 A. At that moment I sat down where I was. I do not know how much time

4 passed when I got up and went to the yard. When I came to the

5 staircase, I looked towards the field behind the house. I saw two men

6 lying down in my vegetable garden. I did not understand that the

7 people were dead. I just went into the yard. When I came to the

8 yard, I first looked down the road.

9 Then I looked in the direction in which the people left. When

10 I looked in that direction where people left, I could not see anybody.

11 There was nobody there. Then I went alongside the hedge towards the

12 house of Zijad Elkasovic.

13 Q. What did you see when you got up towards the house of Zijad

14 Elkasovic?

15 A. First, I saw one dead body. I moved a bit farther. I saw a second

16 one, and then I just collapsed there and I stayed there. How long I

17 was there, I do not know.

18 Q. Did you recognise those bodies?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were they men from the village?

21 A. They were the men from our village, not all from the village.

22 Q. Did you see how those men had been killed? Could you tell?

23 A. From bullets.

24 Q. Did you see where they had been shot?

25 A. The first body that I saw, he was killed from the back. The other

Page 4613

1 body that I saw, he was killed through the forehead.

2 Q. The first man, when you say he was killed from the back, do you mean

3 he was shot in the back of the head?

4 A. In the head.

5 Q. You said that you collapsed in the road. What is the next thing that

6 you recall?

7 A. I remember that somebody was calling me out, "What are you doing

8 there? Get up, move away from there". I could not get up.

9 Q. Who was it that was calling you?

10 A. My father-in-law, Zijad Elkasovic.

11 Q. After your father-in-law came to you, where did you go?

12 A. He helped me get up. I went back into the house.

13 Q. You did not go to check on those men that you saw in the garden

14 behind your house?

15 A. At that moment, no, but the family of the killed ones arrived and

16 started to search, to look what happened to the men, and when they

17 started, then I went along too.

18 Q. Did you go to where those bodies were in your garden?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you recognise those men?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you tell how they had been killed?

23 A. They were both killed in their head in the back.

24 Q. After the soldiers left that day, were any men left in the village?

25 A. Three old men remained.

Page 4614

1 Q. Do you recall who those men were?

2 A. Yes, it was my father-in-law, Zijad Elkasovic. It was Huse Jaskic

3 and .....

4 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, I did not get the second, sorry.

5 MR. KEEGAN: Who was the second name? The translator did not get that

6 name?

7 A. Munib Jusovic.

8 Q. Thank you. Could I have Exhibit 285 shown to the witness, please?

9 Mrs. Elkasovic, if you could keep that list of names flat on the desk

10 while you are looking at it, please? Do you recognise the names on

11 that list?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you first tell us by either the letter or number which men you

14 saw in the village that day who were killed?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. If you could indicate by the letter or number which is next to their

17 name, which ones?

18 A. Letter A killed, letter B killed, letter C killed, letter D killed,

19 letter E killed.

20 Q. Of those men, which are the ones that you first saw on the road by

21 your father-in-law's house, Zijad Elkasovic?

22 A. Letter A was the first person I saw, letter B the second who were

23 near Zijad's house, between mine and Zijad Elkasovic's house.

24 Q. The other men who were taken from the village that day, can you

25 indicate by the number next to the name which of those men you know

Page 4615

1 were taken from the village that day?

2 A. A person No. 1, person No. 2, person No. 3, person No. 4, person No.

3 5, person No. 6, person No. 7, person No. 8, person No. 9, person No.

4 10, person No. 11, person No. 12, person No. 13, person No. 14 taken

5 away.

6 Q. No. 4 is your husband?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. No. 9, is that your brother?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. No. 14, is that your brother-in-law, your sister's husband?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What happened to the bodies of the men who were killed in the village

13 that day?

14 A. Well, people, the first person, letter A, was first hidden next to

15 the forest from his mother, and B was also moved to the forest, C

16 also, D and E were moved to the forest.

17 Q. Thank you. Who took those men to the forest, the bodies to the

18 forest?

19 A. Zijad Elkasovic and Huse Jaskic.

20 Q. Why did they take them to the forest?

21 A. Well, they moved them because of the parents, so that they would not

22 look at that, mostly because of the mothers.

23 Q. Why did they not bury the bodies right away?

24 A. They did not bury them because we could not, we did not dare.

25 Q. Why not?

Page 4616

1 A. We did not dare because of the military. The military was coming

2 after the cleansing every day, 10 times a day, almost every hour.

3 Q. When were the men finally buried, how many days?

4 A. Three days.

5 Q. Did you have to get permission to bury those men?

6 A. Yes. We had to go to Trnopolje, to the camp.

7 Q. Why did you not go to Kozarac or to Prijedor, to the municipal

8 authorities?

9 A. We never saw Kozarac or Prijedor. It was not possible to go there.

10 Q. Who did you speak to at the camp in Trnopolje?

11 A. I asked regular soldiers who were guarding the camp who we could ask,

12 who we can talk to, to bury the dead bodies. They said, "Go to

13 Kuruzovic".

14 Q. Who was Kuruzovic?

15 A. He was some chief among them. I did not know of him until then.

16 Q. Did he give you permission to bury the bodies?

17 A. Nothing in writing. He said, "You can freely bury, nobody is going

18 to do anything".

19 Q. What happened, in fact, when the bodies were taken to be buried?

20 A. Well, we took a cart, we put the dead bodies on it, and we took it to

21 the entrance of Sivci and there was another group of the military

22 there. They asked, "What are you carrying there?" and they were the

23 dead bodies, "We have to bury them", "Uncover so we can see". Then

24 we uncovered.

25 When they saw it, they insulted them. "Why are you digging

Page 4617

1 this? We killed those. They are stink". Then one came over, took a

2 pistol and then put it at Huse Jaskic's temple and the other one shot

3 Zijad Elkasovic between the legs and then they let them go. So they

4 came to mestef in the village of Sivci. Then they dug a common grave,

5 so to speak, and buried them altogether.

6 Q. Did Huse Jaskic and Zijad Elkasovic tell the soldiers that they had

7 gotten permission from Mr. Kuruzovic to bury the bodies?

8 A. They said that they were told that they could bury them, but they had

9 no paper, no.

10 Q. After they told that to the soldiers, did the soldiers let them

11 through to bury the bodies?

12 A. Yes, after that abuse they let them go.

13 Q. You said that after 14th June soldiers continued to come to the

14 village. What did they want?

15 A. Yes, after that. They were looking for cars, tractors, fuel,

16 livestock, brandy, whatever they could think of.

17 Q. How often did they come?

18 A. Well, they were coming every day, as long as I was in the house

19 there, at least 10 people, different people, came.

20 Q. What did these people say to you when they came to your house?

21 A. They said what they needed, that they had to take, that they will

22 take, that we were not to watch, we were not to follow them around.

23 Q. Did they ever tell you where they were from?

24 A. Yes, they was looking for a car or a tractor or whatever thing, "Give

25 it to us. You are leaving here. We will keep it for you until you

Page 4618

1 come back. Don't be afraid. I am from Kozarusa". The other one

2 comes and the same story is told, what he wants, asks for a tractor or

3 whatever, "I am from Radivojci and also to keep it for us until we

4 come back". The third one says, "I will keep it for you until you

5 come back. I am from Babici", and that is how it went -- at least

6 they told us that they were from those places.

7 Q. After 14th June, after the soldiers left, how many families in the

8 village remained?

9 A. After 14th, when men were taken away, that is the day, the 14th, four

10 households left immediately. So that about, we -- about five

11 households of us remained and Huse Jaskic was alone in his house. All

12 his family had left.

13 Q. Before 14th June, before the soldiers came on that day, had any of

14 the families left the village or had they all stayed?

15 A. No, no, no, no, nobody left before the 14th, nobody left anything.

16 Until the 14th we were all at home.

17 Q. How long after 14th June did you stay in Jaskici?

18 A. After the 14th, I stayed for a month, two or three at home.

19 Q. The translation says: "After the 14th, I stayed for a month, two or

20 three at home". Can you please explain again how long after 14th you

21 stayed in the village of Jaskici?

22 A. After the 14th, I stayed a month and two or three days longer.

23 Q. Why did you leave the village?

24 A. Because I was expelled.

25 Q. How were you expelled?

Page 4619

1 A. The police.

2 Q. What did the police say or do?

3 A. "You are to be out within five minutes and off you go".

4 Q. Did they tell you where you were going?

5 A. They told us we were to go in the direction of Trnopolje.

6 Q. Where did they take you?

7 A. Trnopolje camp.

8 Q. How long did you stay at the camp in Trnopolje?

9 A. Four days I was there. On the fifth I left.

10 Q. How did you leave the camp on the fifth day?

11 A. Well, they organised buses which took us to Stari Travnik.

12 Q. Can you describe what that bus ride was like?

13 A. Yes. We were packed into these buses like cattle, as people say. I

14 had to stand all the time and hold my child in my arms. We drove to

15 Kozarac along the main road Prijedor/Banja Luka. There we were

16 stopped by the army. They came on to the bus to inspect. There were

17 about three or four old men with us, with women and children. The

18 soldier entered and when he inspected us all, he cursed Kuruzovic's

19 mother, saying, "Why is he letting those through? We kill individuals

20 like this" and he lets them through. Then we continued our ride

21 towards Banja Luka.

22 Then somewhere around Banja Luka we were given a small bag, a

23 pouch, in which we had to collect money and jewellery. So this pouch

24 went from one hand to another, and whoever had anything on him had to

25 put in that pouch. It, therefore, travelled, the pouch travelled up

Page 4620

1 the bus and down and then the man said, "No, this is not enough" and

2 sent it on its way again. So that if anyone tried to keep something

3 with him, he also had to turn the rest over, so that the pouch went up

4 and down and it reached him and they took it. Then the drive

5 continued.

6 Q. Did anyone die during this bus ride who was on the bus?

7 A. A man died on us, somewhere near Vlasic. The bus stopped. The old

8 man was taken out and he remained there on the edge of the forest by

9 the road.

10 Q. Where did this bus ride stop? Where were you told to get off the

11 bus?

12 A. They told us, "Some garbage", they said, called, and we were told to

13 get off. That is where we got off and they told us, "Down there are

14 your folk, Alija Tudjman, are awaiting you". So we continued on foot

15 and there was fire. So we reached a big barricade, a big block.

16 Q. Mrs. Elkasovic ----

17 A. And we ----

18 Q. --- I am sorry, could you repeat the phrase, the name of the place

19 where you got off in Bosnian?

20 A. Garbage yard, dump site, something like that, they said, "smetliste".

21 Q. Thank you. You were saying something about a big barricade after you

22 had been forced to walk. What was this barricade made out of?

23 A. Stone.

24 Q. Why did you not go around this barricade?

25 A. I was told that it was mined all around, that I had to go across that

Page 4621

1 barricade.

2 Q. How did you have to do that?

3 A. Well, you know, we are in a plight. You know how it is. I took one

4 child. I took him over, returned to fetch my other child. Took my

5 child over that barricade and then went on my way.

6 Q. What happened when you were at that barricade? Did you come across a

7 soldier?

8 A. Yes, I came across a soldier who said, "Don't be afraid. We are

9 yours".

10 Q. What did he tell you?

11 A. He said, "Don't be in groups. It is better to be -- the groups be as

12 small as can be and that you are spares and that you move as fast as

13 you can because they shell and they kill".

14 Q. How long did you have to walk for?

15 A. 40 kilometres -- 40, 50 kilometres. I went on foot. It must have

16 been 10.00 or 11.00. I really did not think about time. We were

17 dumped at that dump site, and around 9 o'clock I reached that school

18 that I was supposed to come to.

19 Q. When you left the camp that day, Trnopolje, were you given any water

20 or any provisions on this trip?

21 A. Those who had water with him, he took it, yes -- I guess they filled

22 something -- those who did not have did not.

23 Q. On this walk was everyone who was on that bus, the elderly, the women

24 and children, all able to make that walk?

25 A. No, several older people remained on the road and when the night fell

Page 4622

1 the military came with wheelbarrows and took them to something, Fiat,

2 to a small truck or something. They tried to transfer them somehow to

3 Travnik.

4 Q. Mrs. Elkasovic, you have indicated the picture of your house on the

5 chart up there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell me, before 14th June 1992 is that the way your house

8 looked?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Was the second storey on that house complete?

11 A. The house was complete, everything, the facade all up to the back of

12 the house.

13 Q. Mrs. Elkasovic, have you seen or heard from your husband, your

14 brother or your sister's husband since 14th June 1992?

15 A. Neither seen nor heard.

16 Q. Mrs. Elkasovic, I would like you to look around the courtroom,

17 please, and tell me if you see the man that you know as Dusko Tadic?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Can you describe what he is wearing, please?

20 A. He has a green, a greenish jacket, a multi-coloured tie and a shirt

21 like coffee with milk.

22 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you. I have no further questions, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Miss De Bertodano?

24 MISS DE BERTODANO: Yes, your Honour.

25 Cross-Examined by MISS DE BERTODANO

Page 4623

1 Q. Mrs. Elkasovic, I would like to ask you some questions about 14th

2 June 1992. You have told us that on that day some soldiers came to

3 your house between 2 and 3 o'clock, is that right?

4 A. On 14th June between 2 and 3 o'clock soldiers came to our house.

5 Q. The first that you saw of them was when you saw the barrels of two

6 rifles at your front door?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Then you heard one of them saying that the women and children should

9 go back and that the men should come out?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You have told us that three men who were in the house with you went

12 out?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How many women and children remained in the house?

15 A. Let us see, there was I with my two children, my sister with one

16 child, my mother with one son who was minor, my sister-in-law, my

17 brother's wife, with her child.

18 Q. So that is some nine people. How old were your two children at this

19 time?

20 A. The younger one not yet five, and the elder 10.

21 Q. It was the younger child that you had in your arms, is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you heard the order to go back, you went into the kitchen

24 escorted by one of the soldiers?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4624

1 Q. Was the soldier following behind you or was he in front of you?

2 A. Yes, behind me.

3 Q. Were you the first of that group of nine to go into the kitchen?

4 A. No, the last one.

5 Q. So when you arrived in the kitchen there were some eight people there

6 already?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What were they doing when you reached the kitchen?

9 A. Some were already lying down, some were about to. It depended. As

10 they entered, so they had to comply with the orders.

11 Q. You were carrying your five-year old child in your arms. Was that

12 child distressed at the time?

13 A. Well, I had roused the child. The child was asleep.

14 Q. You got into the kitchen and looked at the window?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Through the window you saw a soldier standing?

17 A. Yes, through the window I saw who was standing in my yard.

18 Q. I think, from what you have shown us on the diagram, he was somewhere

19 to the right of you, is that right?

20 A. Yes, as I looked through the window he was in front of the window. I

21 cannot really focus whether left or right.

22 Q. The three men who had left your house were coming out of the door and

23 walking past this soldier?

24 A. In front, in front of that man.

25 Q. So further to the right of you than the soldier?

Page 4625

1 A. To my eyes, as they were coming out they were more to the left rather

2 than right.

3 Q. Very well. The soldier, you told us today, was standing in the

4 middle of the yard?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was there a pile of sand in your yard?

7 A. Yes, there was a pile, not a particularly big pile, but there was a

8 pile of sand.

9 Q. Where was that in the yard?

10 A. Next to the window, in front of the window, more up there to the

11 left.

12 Q. When you saw this man, you remembered this morning that he was

13 wearing a camouflage uniform which you described this morning as being

14 dark and light coffee colour?

15 A. Well, perhaps I made a slight mistake but it was a greenish and white

16 coffee.

17 Q. That is what you remembered this afternoon?

18 A. Not now, I always remembered it. Perhaps I said it the other way

19 round.

20 Q. Was he wearing anything on his head?

21 A. Whom do you mean?

22 Q. The soldier that you say was Dusko Tadic.

23 A. He had nothing on his head.

24 Q. You saw him through the window and then you put your child down on

25 the floor and lay down next to the child, is that right?

Page 4626

1 A. When I saw in the yard those taken away and who was standing there,

2 yes, then I put the child down and I went down on the floor.

3 Q. The soldier who was accompanying you came into the kitchen behind

4 you, is that right?

5 A. As I was entering he was following.

6 Q. It was he who told you to get down?

7 A. Yes, he was shouting "All down".

8 Q. At some stage after this you heard that things had become quieter and

9 you left the house and you saw the soldiers going away?

10 A. When I felt that this one was not in the house, I first checked and

11 then I returned, looked through the window and I saw them moving away

12 towards Zijad Elkasovic's house.

13 Q. How long would you estimate that this incident took from the time

14 when the soldiers arrived at your house to the time when you saw them

15 going away?

16 A. That, I do not know. Those were the most important moments in my

17 life.

18 Q. When you saw the man who you described as Dusko Tadic through the

19 window, was he looking at the men who came out of the house?

20 A. Yes, he was expecting those men so that he was turned towards the

21 windows and the house, and he was expecting men to come out of the

22 house.

23 MISS DE BERTODANO: I have nothing further, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, redirect?

25 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour

Page 4627

1 Re-Examined by MR. KEEGAN

2 Q. Mrs. Elkasovic, when you saw Dusko Tadic standing out there in your

3 yard, what did you think?

4 A. I thought that because I knew that man that he must have known a few

5 people in that village and that what happened would not happen.

6 Q. What do you mean, "that what happened would not happen"?

7 A. That there would be no killings, that time waiting already, that I

8 have been waiting for five years and still do not know where they are.

9 MR. KEEGAN: Nothing further, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any recross?

11 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mrs. Elkasovic being

13 permanently excused?

14 MISS DE BERTODANO: No objection.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Elkasovic, you are permanently excused. You

16 free to leave. Thank you for coming.

17 THE WITNESS: Not at all.

18 (The witness withdrew)

19 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, could we have a five-minute recess to arrange

20 for our next witness?

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess, then we will take our

22 afternoon recess so for 20 minutes, so you may have your coffee, tea,

23 whatever now and then we will come back in 20 minutes. Thank you.

24 (3.25 p.m.)

25 (Adjourned for a short time)

Page 4628

1 (3.45 p.m.)

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis?

3 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, before I call the next witness I would ask that

4 we attend to one matter from the last witness's testimony. In that

5 regard, I would ask that the Court note a correct identification of

6 the accused by the witness Senija Elkasovic.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, any objection?

8 MR. KAY: No problem, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Except to the standing objection that you have.

10 Yes, the record will reflect that the witness properly identified the

11 accused.

12 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, one additional thing, it has been brought to my

13 attention, I do not believe that Prosecution Exhibit 295 for

14 identification has been tendered; if not, we would tender that at this

15 time. It was a photograph of the home of Senija Elkasovic.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

17 MR. KAY: No problem, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 295 will be admitted.

19 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you call the next witness?

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour the next witness is Mr. Vasic Gutic.

22 MR. VASIC GUTIC, called.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that has been

24 handed to you?

25 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

Page 4629

1 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

2 (The witness was sworn)

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

4 Examined by MR. TIEGER.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

7 Q. Sir, will you state your name, please?

8 A. My name is Gutic, Vasif.

9 Q. What is your date of birth?

10 A. I was born 20th June 1965 in Prijedor.

11 Q. What is your nationality?

12 A. I am a Muslim.

13 Q. In what part of opstina Prijedor did you grow up?

14 A. I grew up in Kozarac.

15 Q. Where did you attend school?

16 A. The primary school I attended in Kozarac, then the middle medical

17 school in Prijedor and then I studied at the medical school at the

18 University of Banja Luka.

19 Q. Did you serve in the JNA?

20 A. Yes, I served my military duty.

21 Q. What were your duties in the JNA?

22 A. I was in the infantry. After the training, I was assigned as a guard

23 on a military object.

24 Q. What was your profession immediately before the conflict in 1992?

25 A. In 1992 I was -- I had passed all my courses in the University in

Page 4630

1 Banja Luka, that is, I was -- I had three exams left.

2 Q. Those were interrupted by the outbreak of the conflict?

3 A. Yes, they were interrupted. The exam was going to be on May 26th

4 1992, and the fate wanted it that on that day I ended up in a camp.

5 Q. Let me ask you a quick question about the University of Banja Luka

6 where you studied medicine. When you began your study of medicine,

7 did you have professors from a variety of places or who were from a

8 variety of places in former Yugoslavia?

9 A. Yes, the University in Banja Luka is one of the newer universities,

10 so that certain chairs were represented by Professors from other

11 universities, especially from Zagreb. We had guest Professors,

12 lecturers, who held courses but also from Tuzla and Sarajevo.

13 Q. By the time your studies were ended or abbreviated in 1992, had that

14 situation changed?

15 A. Yes, in the meantime there were changes in the administration of the

16 university so that the guest Professors from Zagreb and Sarajevo were

17 replaced by Professors from Belgrade.

18 Q. Sir, you indicated that you were raised in Kozarac and went to

19 primary school there. Do you know Dule Tadic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How long have you known him?

22 A. I met Dule Tadic as a karate trainer of the school, of the primary

23 school in Kozarac, because I myself wanted to do this sport, but at

24 that time there were no vacancies. I was late in applying. So I was

25 just observing the training of the young karateists, and I was 15 or

Page 4631

1 16, 15.

2 Q. As a teenager, did he represent one of the significant persons in

3 Kozarac for you?

4 A. No, not then, given that I gave up that sport, so that after that I

5 was not interested in that or in him.

6 Q. Did you continue to see him periodically in Kozarac over the years

7 that followed?

8 A. Yes, yes. I would see him in the meantime.

9 Q. Were you aware, for example, when he opened his cafe?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Between the time of the elections and the outbreak of the conflict,

12 did you hear that Mr. Tadic did not want Muslims in his cafe?

13 A. Yes, I heard when I came back -- when I went to Kozarac, I heard from

14 other people that Dule stated that no Muslim ear would enter his cafe,

15 that Muslims would not be allowed to come in.

16 Q. Did that cause you to pay more attention to Mr. Tadic on those

17 occasions when you saw him in Kozarac thereafter?

18 A. Yes, that kind of a statement for the Kozarac environment (which was

19 known as a tolerant town) at that time was something, something

20 terrible, that national differences should be made, and that is why

21 this statement surprised me. Then I simply maybe as I was passing by

22 that cafe or in that town, I was paying attention to it, maybe

23 subconsciously to Tadic and to his cafe, because I was really

24 surprised.

25 Q. In fact, were you in his cafe at one point?

Page 4632

1 A. Yes. Yes, in time that statement faded some, and we would -- when

2 we had time or in passing, we would stop by, not often, but myself and

3 my colleagues occasionally would sit down. I myself also sat down

4 outside once or twice. Next to the room inside he had a little bit of

5 a garden so that you could sit. He had a couple of tables and you

6 could sit down there.

7 Q. Let me direct your attention to the attack on Kozarac on May 24th

8 1992. Where were you when the attack began?

9 A. At the moment of the attack I was in the medical centre in Kozarac.

10 Q. Had you been working there in connection with your training as a

11 doctor?

12 A. Yes, given that Kozarac had been given an ultimatum, surrender or

13 shelling, I thought it my moral duty as a student of medicine to

14 potentially help the wounded and the injured in case of the attack,

15 and I went to the medical centre that day to be disposal -- at

16 disposition on that day if, should there be injured or wounded.

17 Q. During the course of the shelling, were you able to determine whether

18 or not the medical centre in Kozarac was being targeted?

19 A. Yes, after already the first shells were hitting around the medical

20 centre and one of them fell into the yard in front of the medical

21 centre, and a building shook a lot, and we were very afraid. Then the

22 shelling continued of the vicinity. You could hear strong

23 detonations. One of the -- in the meantime, we already received the

24 first patients and we started to work on them.

25 Immediately following that, a shell fell at the very entrance

Page 4633

1 of the yard of the medical centre and it hit a vehicle which was

2 coming bringing in a patient and the driver himself was slightly

3 injured. After that, another shell hit the very corner of the

4 building. The building shook a lot, and most of the glass was

5 shattered. We felt the detonation inside, stopped our work but then

6 continued on, continued to work. We had a lot of work. All this was

7 going on in the first hour practically of the shelling and the attack

8 on Kozarac, even though the medical centre had a flag which had a Red

9 Cross on it, marking it as a medical centre.

10 Q. Did the medical personnel at the centre relocate the medical facility

11 to another part of Kozarac?

12 A. Yes, we remained that first day still in Kozarac, that whole night,

13 24th to 25th May, and after that in the morning we moved to Rejkovici

14 in an abandoned motel in order to protect ourselves and our patients

15 from further shelling and to allow people to keep bringing people and

16 not to bring, not to endanger them.

17 Q. On the morning of the 26th, did you and any other medical people

18 return to the medical building in Kozarac, to the ambulanta in

19 Kozarac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was the purpose of returning there?

22 A. That night, 25th or 26th, by radio an officer of the Serb Army,

23 Radmilo Zeljaja, in Kozarac sent an ultimatum through the radio, of

24 course, for all to surrender to the Serb Army. That was in the night,

25 somewhere around 11 o'clock. After that there were consultations

Page 4634

1 between the police, and again the contact was established and it was

2 said that physically it was impossible to inform all the people who

3 have been hiding from all the shelling and Zeljaja said, "All right".

4 Q. Dr. Gutic, let me ask you this question, if I may. Did you return to

5 Kozarac anticipating the surrender on 26th and for the purpose of

6 making medical assistance available to people who might need it in

7 town?

8 A. Yes, we returned back to Kozarac, because we did not have information

9 about what was going on outside, because in Kozarac, and also to

10 enable people, if there were other wounded people, so that we could

11 continue to help them, to continue with our work.

12 Q. Were you captured or arrested at the medical centre that morning?

13 A. Yes, that morning.

14 Q. Were the medical supplies at the ambulanta collected by Serb

15 officials?

16 A. Yes, they captured us, and then after a period of time they ordered

17 us to gather all the medicine and all equipment and to load it into a

18 military truck.

19 Q. What happened to those medical supplies and to those medications?

20 A. The officer of the Serb Army who established the radio contact with

21 the medical centre in Prijedor and said, "I am sending you medicine of

22 Muslims from Kozarac for your use".

23 Q. That day were you taken to Trnopolje camp?

24 A. Yes, that day we were then transported farther. First, to the school

25 in Kozarac and then we were taken to Trnopolje.

Page 4635

1 Q. Approximately, how many other people were collected at Trnopolje camp

2 on the same day you arrived?

3 A. I cannot say on that day, because after we arrived in Trnopolje we

4 were taken to the medical centre, but the next day when I had an

5 opportunity to walk through the camp, I think there were 4,000 to

6 5,000 people in the camp itself already that day.

7 Q. What age group or groups were these people and what gender?

8 A. They were of all ages, from small babies, a couple of months old, to

9 elderly people, 70s or 80s. Of course, women, children, men also, all

10 ages.

11 Q. Were these men, women and children, babies, free to leave the camp?

12 A. No, nobody could leave the camp, those days.

13 Q. In what way or ways were people prevented from leaving the camp?

14 A. I beg your pardon?

15 Q. Were there Serb forces there, guards or soldiers?

16 A. Yes. The whole camp was guarded by the Serb Army who were placed

17 around and prevented leaving the camp. If somebody would try, they

18 would be returned, turned back or abused.

19 Q. You indicated earlier that on the first day you were in the medical

20 clinic. Was a makeshift medical clinic established by you and others

21 in the Trnopolje camp?

22 A. Before the war in that complex, in that school, there already was a

23 medical centre, a medical clinic, where the doctor worked with three

24 assistants and there was a small lab too which was there for offering

25 medical services to the local population there.

Page 4636

1 Q. What medical equipment or medications were available to you and any

2 other medical personnel who were held in Trnopolje camp to treat the

3 prisoner population?

4 A. When we entered into the ambulanta, we saw that it had been broken

5 into and that all the medication was stolen, so we did not find

6 anything.

7 Q. You indicated that guards prevented prisoners from leaving the camp.

8 How were the guards at the camp armed?

9 A. The guards were armed with semi-automatic and automatic rifles and

10 the so-called machine guns, M72 type.

11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, at this point I would like to use the assistance

12 of a video which I believe has previously been admitted into evidence,

13 and ask if the doctor can point to a few locations within the camp

14 facility. So if we could begin showing that video?

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you know what Exhibit that is, by any chance?

16 You can locate it and tell us.

17 MR. TIEGER: I know it is up in the booth now and I would like to identify

18 the number for the Court. Unfortunately, your Honour, I only know the

19 number it is not at the moment.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is the number?

21 MR. TIEGER: Can we stop that, please, for a moment? The Exhibit number

22 I believed it was, I have just been advised, is not correct. We are

23 not sure of the correct number.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: For the video either?

25 MR. TIEGER: No.

Page 4637

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Does the Defence know what video this is that is

2 going to be shown?

3 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

4 JUDGE STEPHEN: We have seen it.

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, it might be simpler to mark this as a new

6 Exhibit which will be 296.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Judge Stephen saw a part of it and recognised it and

8 believes it is in evidence.

9 JUDGE STEPHEN: We have seen it before. It is the one where Mr. Tadic was

10 identified as standing outside on a corner and the logs were not

11 there.

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That was a still. That was a still photograph.

13 JUDGE STEPHEN: It looks as if it came from this.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Exactly the same spot.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I did not see it on the screen. Let us play it and

16 see what happens and we will handle any objections there are.

17 MR. KAY: We take no point.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you. Go ahead. Please play the

19 video.

20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

21 (The video was played)

22 Can we stop it here, please? Dr. Gutic, what does this

23 portion of the video depict?

24 A. Here we see the building of the primary school in Trnopolje which

25 during the war was the camp.

Page 4638

1 Q. Were prisoners housed within the primary school building?

2 A. Yes, the prisoners were closed in there. They were sleeping in

3 classrooms, in the hallways, in staircases -- wherever there was room.

4 Q. Can we continue, please?

5 A. I have to notice ----

6 Q. I am sorry, can you stop. Yes, sir, I am sorry?

7 A. I notice an object which was not there at that time when the camp was

8 there, that small shed. That was built later.

9 Q. OK. Can we stop here, please? Sir, the building that we have just

10 panned and the left side of which we now see, what was that?

11 A. That is the building of the store, the food store, in Trnopolje which

12 during the war also served for housing of the prisoners, especially

13 for the women and children who were being prepared for deportation.

14 There was a group of 13 to 15, about 15 children who were brought in

15 at one point to the camp who were captured in a forest near Prijedor.

16 Q. May we continue, please? Can we stop, please? Just for orientation,

17 in which direction are we now looking?

18 A. Now we are looking in the direction of the railway station in Kozarac

19 -- towards the railway station in Trnopolje from Kozarac.

20 Q. So at the end of the road we are now looking at is the railway

21 station?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That is approximately how far away?

24 A. About 400 to 500 metres.

25 Q. Can we continue, please? Can you cut the sound on the video,

Page 4639

1 please? Sir, what does this portion of the video depict?

2 A. This is the north side of the school in Trnopolje, of the building

3 which was the camp, with a northern entrance in the middle.

4 Q. If we may continue? Can we stop here, please? You mentioned that

5 there were guards preventing the prisoners from leaving the camp.

6 Were any of the guard posts located in the area we are looking at now?

7 A. Yes, behind this small building, house, that we see in the

8 background, to the north of it there was a military point with a Serb

9 military who protected the exit from the camp from that northern side.

10 Q. Can we continue? If we can stop for a moment? It looks like we just

11 skipped to another part. Go forward just a bit. Stop here. Again,

12 sir, just for orientation, we are now looking in what direction?

13 A. Now we are looking in the direction of Kozarac. The road is leading

14 to Kozarac.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. By this house there, the second house up there, across the street

17 there was another point which controlled the entrance to the camp from

18 the northern side.

19 Q. If we may continue, please? If we could stop for a moment? What

20 part of the camp does this depict?

21 A. This is the south side of the camp, towards the railway station, at a

22 level of the former warehouses of building materials.

23 Q. The object which rises in the upper right portion of the screen is

24 what?

25 A. That was an electric substation.

Page 4640

1 Q. May we continue, please? Can we stop for a moment? Sir, the field

2 we have just seen, was that part of the school complex as well?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were prisoners kept on any portion of that field?

5 A. Yes, prisoners were kept both in the building that we saw and on that

6 field.

7 Q. What kind of shelter, if any, did the prisoners who were kept in the

8 field have?

9 A. No, the prisoners would make themselves, improvise tents from

10 materials that they had available, blankets, pieces of plastic

11 sheeting. They improvised.

12 Q. The building which is seen in the upper right portion of the screen

13 now -- yes, if we could move forward just slightly -- what is that

14 building?

15 A. It also belonged to these grounds before the war. Before the war it

16 housed a cinema, and in this front part there was a small bar and to

17 the side up there were also the offices of the Local Commune, yes, of

18 the Local Commune.

19 Q. Was that building used as part of the Trnopolje camp during its

20 operation?

21 A. Yes, and inmates were also put in there, but I mean women and

22 children.

23 Q. Was it used by camp officials?

24 A. Yes, a room in the middle part where these vaults are there, that

25 office was also used by the Serb Red Cross as their office and the

Page 4641

1 Camp Commander and personnel head.

2 Q. Were the offices of the Serb Red Cross located within that building

3 during the entire operation of the camp?

4 A. No, a major part of them were here, but later on they moved to a

5 building across the street from this building where before the war

6 there was also, there had also been a small restaurant, a coffee bar.

7 Q. Can we continue with the video, please? Can we stop here? What do we

8 now see on the screen, sir?

9 A. At this point we also see the building where there was a store from

10 the south, from the southern side, and here we also see the building

11 of this surgery, of this outpatient facility, where we worked.

12 Q. So the medical clinic you referred to is in that building?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Just for orientation, the school building is beyond this building, is

15 that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If we can continue, please? Does this show the school field on which

18 prisoners erected makeshift shelters?

19 A. Yes. That is where they were but on the rear.

20 Q. Stop here. The building in the picture now, the two buildings in the

21 picture?

22 A. This is again the school building, its southern view, and to the left

23 on the screen is the gymnasium and to the right is the school

24 building. In the middle was the southern school entrance with the

25 boiler room.

Page 4642

1 Q. Continue, please. Stop here. What are we now seeing?

2 A. Now we see the building which housed the cinema in Trnopolje, the

3 former cinema, which showed films and during the war it was also used

4 to keep prisoners, detainees, and women and children prepared for

5 deportation.

6 Q. If we can continue? Stop here. As the camera panned back, it was

7 paning in the direction of the railroad station, is that correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, this would indeed be a new Exhibit and it

10 would be No. 296.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 296?

12 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 296 will be admitted.

14 MR. TIEGER: Sir, you referred earlier to the guards. Did guards at

15 Trnopolje camp work in shifts?

16 A. Yes, the guards worked in shifts.

17 Q. How many guards were in each shift?

18 A. There were about 50 guards in every shift, especially in the

19 beginning, plus at the very outset they were reinforced with some

20 combat units, a relatively small group of men who remained there only

21 for a short while, and only those guard shifts looking after the camp

22 remained.

23 Q. What was the official explanation by camp officials for why Muslim

24 men, women and children had been gathered, collected, at Trnopolje

25 camp?

Page 4643

1 A. In the beginning, in those early days, the Serb soldiers used to tell

2 us that we were there so that they, the Serb Army, could protect us

3 against the Muslim extremists, as they put it, so as to protect us, so

4 as to shield us from their attacks.

5 Q. To your knowledge, were the Muslims of Kozarac or Trnopolje or

6 Prijedor or Hambarine in danger of attack by Muslim extremists?

7 A. No, no way. I mean, something like that could never happen.

8 Q. Did a Serbian television crew come to the camp and do some filming

9 there?

10 A. Yes, once a TV crew from Banja Luka came to the camp, and they wanted

11 to show their viewers how the Serb Army was protecting, protected the

12 Muslim people. So soldiers were assigned to individual points and at

13 that moment they began firing and taking up positions. Of course, the

14 camera was shooting it all, and this was to be proved that they were

15 protecting us and that the camp was being attacked by Muslims, that

16 is, that the Muslims were attacking their own people, other Muslims.

17 Q. Before assuming these positions and beginning the shooting, had the

18 guards or Serbian soldiers consulted with the TV crew?

19 A. Yes, yes. One director, presumably, of the whole enterprise, he

20 assigned various soldiers to various positions, changed them, shifted

21 them around, indicated them in what direction they should run or lie

22 down, in what direction to fire and so on and so forth. So they made

23 a dress rehearsal and then they really started shooting.

24 Q. Was there ever an attack on Trnopolje camp?

25 A. No.

Page 4644

1 Q. Sir, instead of protection from attack or protection of Muslim people

2 from attack by Muslim extremists, what was Trnopolje camp used for?

3 A. Basically, the Trnopolje camp was used for the ethnic cleansing of

4 the Kozarac area of the domicile Muslim population. It was something

5 like a point where the civilian population, men, women and children,

6 would be gathered, collected, and thence on deported to other parts of

7 Bosnia or other territories. Practically, so like a collection point,

8 but also to destroy the Muslim population, since many were killed in

9 that camp.

10 Q. Did camp officials ever explicitly say whether Muslims would be

11 allowed to remain in Prijedor?

12 A. Yes, once I was on the Red Cross premises where the camp Commander

13 was and he said during that conversation with his associates that only

14 a small number, that those people who had no houses of their own which

15 had been destroyed, they would be deported, and that others would

16 remain. But after that he said, "10 per cent of the Muslims may stay

17 here, others have to go out".

18 Q. Who said that 10 per cent of the Muslims may stay in Prijedor but the

19 others would have to leave?

20 A. They must disappear, that was the camp Commander who said that, Mr.

21 -- Major Kuruzovic.

22 Q. Did you later hear from other Serb officials that there was some

23 problem or disagreement with even this limited number?

24 A. Yes, from a Serb soldier we learnt subsequently that a large number

25 of the population had already been deported, that some political

Page 4645

1 structures were against even this low percentage and that they should

2 be reduced to two per cent of the Muslim population.

3 Q. Were local Serbian civilians or others discouraged from helping

4 Muslims who were in the camp?

5 A. Yes, later on while the camp was in existence, the local, some

6 individual, local Serbs tried to help their neighbours, Muslims. I

7 remember an elderly woman who brought food to her Muslim neighbour,

8 but the guards then intervened quite rigorously and they turned her

9 back home, threw that food on the ground. But the next day she came

10 again and then they again interfered rigorously, the same thing

11 happened and, as we learnt, they fired at her house saying that she

12 was a traitor.

13 Moreover, we also learned from other Serbs that they were

14 forbidden to communicate with Muslims, to talk to them, and that those

15 found out would be punished or some other sanctions would be used

16 against them or, rather, that they could either lose their jobs or, if

17 they were male, they would be sent to the front.

18 Q. Did someone associated with the Red Cross, the Serbian Red Cross,

19 come to the camp in the first few days of its operation and bring some

20 milk for babies?

21 A. Yes, a Serb, who was among the executive staff of the Red Cross in

22 Prijedor, used to bring us in the beginning a small quantity of milk

23 powder for the infants in the camp. Evidently, one of those military

24 executives did not like it. So, as he was going back to Prijedor, he

25 was stopped at a military checkpoint and beaten up there. He

Page 4646

1 automatically lost his job and replaced by another man.

2 Q. Do you know who replaced him or who the head of the Serbian Red Cross

3 was during the bulk of the operation at Trnopolje camp?

4 A. He was replaced by Pero Curguz.

5 Q. You mentioned that the former head had brought small quantities of

6 milk for the infants. Approximately, how many infants, that is, under

7 the age of one year old, were in Trnopolje camp in its early stages?

8 A. When they distributed that milk, they had a record 800 infants, that

9 is, new borns below the age of one. Mothers had to bring the infants

10 there and write down their full name, and only then they got that milk

11 and then he said, "We have distributed 800 packages".

12 Q. Were there attempts by Muslims who had not been brought to the camp

13 to assist those who were confined in the camp, and did those sometimes

14 provoke violent reactions?

15 A. Yes, in those early days of the camp, the population who were in

16 their homes around Trnopolje also tried to somehow get the food to us,

17 give the food to the inmates, but they refused that, they abused

18 verbally those people who were bringing that food, and driving them

19 away from the camp.

20 Q. Do you recall an occasion where a Muslim male brought money for the

21 purpose of purchasing bread for the prisoners of Trnopolje?

22 A. Yes, a Muslim, at some point a Muslim brought 1,000 German marks to

23 the Serb Red Cross. He denoted that money, asking that the Red Cross

24 organise the delivery of bread from Prijedor to all those people who

25 were in the camp. They took the money. We never got that bread.

Page 4647

1 That man was taken to the office and was interrogated and severely

2 beaten. He was really very badly battered. After that he was

3 detained in a room in our laboratory.

4 Q. I want to ask you some questions about the general conditions of

5 Trnopolje camp, but before I do, I want to refer back to your

6 explanation that Trnopolje was used as a place for deportation. In

7 what ways were prisoners from Trnopolje deported or expelled? How

8 were they collected and removed?

9 A. After the surrender of Kozarac itself, the orders came for the

10 civilian population to be collected in the stadium or, rather, in

11 front of the school in Kozarac, and there they separated men from

12 women and then directed them down the road in the direction of

13 Prijedor.

14 Q. I am sorry ----

15 A. There ----

16 Q. If I may interrupt you, that was unclear question. I apologise. The

17 question I was asking is once people were collected in Trnopolje camp

18 how were they removed?

19 A. Yes, right. People were deported from Trnopolje by railway, that is,

20 in railway carriages. They were taken to there under custody to the

21 station and there ordered to board the carriages. Of course, those

22 were civilian population, women and children. From there, they were

23 taken in the direction of Banja Luka and further on, but at that

24 moment we did not know where they were being taken to. Part of the

25 population was also deported by trucks and buses.

Page 4648

1 Q. You said that a portion of those who were deported after being in

2 Trnopolje camp were removed by rail. Were people put in passenger

3 wagons?

4 A. Yes -- no, no. These were cattle wagons or for any kind of bulk

5 cargo. They were not passenger carriages. They were closed freight

6 carriages.

7 Q. Can you estimate how many prisoners were deported by freight cars or

8 cattle cars at any given time?

9 A. According to these people's statements, they had very little space,

10 so that a number of them could fit into a car, 100 to 150, but they

11 really were pressed one against the other.

12 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to count the number of cattle cars

13 or freight cars which were used on a train which deported people?

14 A. Yes, once I managed to get off to follow those civilians to the

15 station itself, and in that particular convoy, in that train included

16 27 cars.

17 Q. Did the deportations by rail or by truck or by bus follow the

18 cleansings of villages and hamlets in the area of Kozarac and

19 Trnopolje and the municipality of Prijedor generally?

20 A. Yes, these trains were organised at certain time intervals, prior to

21 that the population in the neighbourhood, in those villages,

22 individual villages, was collected, that is, as the Serb soldiers put

23 it, they were cleansed.

24 They would come with an APC and with special police troops

25 from Prijedor and they would enter, they would surround it, they would

Page 4649

1 be deployed around the area. They wanted to expel. They would then

2 enter houses, breaking in, firing off and if they would find somebody

3 they would say he immediately had to get out. They were forcing

4 people out, and if anyone managed to take any of their personal

5 effects, that was already a success. Of course, during those sweeping

6 operations some people were even killed if they came across them.

7 The population was fearing for their life, though, were

8 fleeing towards Trnopolje because those were the orders, flee towards

9 Trnopolje, and when they arrived to Trnopolje, they were more often

10 than not separated from other inmates, usually in the cinema hall.

11 Then the next day or that same day or, perhaps, for another day or

12 two, they awaited the transportation and then they were transported

13 further on in the manner I have already described.

14 Q. Did traumatized victims of this kind of cleansing seek you out in the

15 medical clinic for either counselling or some kind of medication?

16 A. Yes, people were panic stricken, in a shock, under a severe stress.

17 Many saw their nearest of kin being killed then or how their houses

18 were set on fire because there was arson as well and, of course, they

19 were experiencing and feeling it all. They came to us asking for our

20 help, for medicines, for advice what to do. They were in a very bad

21 -- in a terrible mental condition.

22 Q. Sir, let me ask you a few questions about the general conditions in

23 the camp, if I may. First of all, did the camp officials provide the

24 prisoners with food?

25 A. No, in Trnopolje there was no organised food distribution by the camp

Page 4650

1 management.

2 Q. How did prisoners feed themselves? What did they do for food?

3 A. In the beginning people ate what they had brought from home in their

4 bags, if they had managed to take something away. After that, we lived

5 on the aid of the local population, of the neighbours, those who had

6 some relatives or somebody to bring them something. Later on, when

7 that population was expelled, the inmates were compelled to go out of

8 the camp for a brief period of time. In the beginning, we called it

9 "going to take a swim", then looked around the gardens for vegetables,

10 for green fruit and anything they could find in those abandoned

11 houses. The remains of whatever they could find, some flour, perhaps,

12 or anything eatable, and they would then bring it to the camp and we

13 prepared the food.

14 Q. Was it dangerous, using your expression, to "take a swim", that is,

15 to go out and look for food?

16 A. It was terribly dangerous. Even the Serb soldiers on guard

17 themselves and others, other Serbs, in the neighbourhood also rammed

18 those houses, looted, plundered valuables, and they would come across

19 our inmates, so that many were harassed. Some of them were,

20 regrettably, liquidated as well as they went out in search of food.

21 Later on, in the later days of the camp, as people had to go further

22 and further away from the camp, and that was very dangerous indeed.

23 Q. Can you describe the hygienic conditions in Trnopolje camp?

24 A. Hygienic conditions were horrible. When we arrived in the camp, the

25 school building still had running water from the local system, but in

Page 4651

1 those first days it was turned off so that the hygienic conditions

2 deteriorated in that regard. So that people were forced to go to just

3 one source of water which was across from the main entrance to the

4 school complex.

5 The toilets that were used during that period of time, given

6 the amount of people, got clogged up very fast. The piping was

7 plugged up and many could not get there so that they were forced to go

8 to the toilet outside. We managed to organise through the digging of

9 some improvised toilets which could be used only during the day. In

10 other words, during the night nobody could move outside or else they

11 would be shot at by the guards who were guarding. So that people

12 would go to the toilet next to the door or near the wall, and this

13 contributed to outbreak of diseases. There was a very acute case of

14 dysentery. We had no detergents, no soaps, nothing.

15 People, I remember when I passed through the camp and surveyed

16 the situation, people were lining up in front of the toilets and as

17 they were finished, they would have to go to the back of the line

18 because they knew that they would have to go to the toilet. So a lot

19 of people were unable to control it, so that they, sort of, relieved

20 themselves right there on the spot. So that was horrible.

21 We had patients who were coming and looking for help and often

22 times we could not help. We had nothing to give them. They had blood

23 in their stool. They were losing blood and that, obviously,

24 contributed to a general deterioration of their physical mass. There

25 was not enough food so people were really deteriorating.

Page 4652

1 Q. Were the children of the camp particularly vulnerable to diseases

2 such as dysentery?

3 A. Yes, children were practically the target from the very start. They

4 were -- the diarrhoeas led to the loss of water and electrolysis and

5 young bodies showed that very fast. They brought us -- they were

6 bringing us these children, and we tried to help as much as we could,

7 almost half dead. We would give them some kind of syrups. It was

8 horrible.

9 Q. What percentage of people in the camp would you estimate suffered

10 from dysentery?

11 A. My free estimate, I am sure in 95 per cent. I know of very few cases

12 of people who said that they did not have dysentery. We all had it

13 though to a degree, but most, as I said, at least 95 per cent.

14 Q. Were there other diseases or medical problems in the camp resulting

15 from the malnutrition and the lack of hygiene?

16 A. Yes, very soon we had lice and also scabies which is a very

17 uncomfortable disease which we just could not eradicate.

18 Q. What is the effect of scabies on the body?

19 A. The first, the basic symptom is irritation on different parts of the

20 body. People almost are trying to kind of remove their skin because

21 of the irritation, so that they would injure them -- they would create

22 open wounds that would get infected very fast, so that we had local

23 carbuncles and ferbuncles(?), pus, which was a big problem. We had no

24 antibiotics so that bacteria spread very fast through the bloodstream

25 into other parts of the body.

Page 4653

1 Q. In the light of the number of people who suffered from dysentery,

2 did you request that toilet facilities be reinstated or expanded?

3 A. Yes, in conversation with the Serbian Red Cross, we asked that new

4 toilets be made outside, and to clean out the septic holes and to

5 unplug the sewer system as well as to let the running water back into

6 the school, so that we could help improve the hygiene. However, that

7 was refused. They said that the water system was affected, so they

8 did not do it.

9 Two or three times later, some trucks came from Prijedor.

10 They cleaned out those holes but then -- that was a period when we had

11 a lot of rainfall. So it filled up again. Then in the surrounding

12 wells, their disease control service came and they put something in

13 it. We did not know what it was. So people did not dare drink water

14 from those wells, because they feared they might be contaminated or

15 even poisoned which we thought was a real possibly.

16 Q. Sir, in addition to the general conditions which you partially

17 described, were prisoners in Trnopolje camp beaten?

18 A. Yes, they were beaten.

19 Q. On the first night you were there was a group of men brought to the

20 camp and beaten?

21 A. Yes, that first night we were locked up in the clinic and then after,

22 some time after midnight a group of young men was brought in. They

23 were lined up in front of the clinic. They were shouting at them,

24 they were yelling. Then they drove them in with rifle butts. They

25 threatened them and cursed them. After about five or 10 minutes they

Page 4654

1 took them in the direction towards the movie theatre on the south side

2 of the camp. I do not know what happened to those people. The next

3 day I asked the inmates that were around there in that area of the

4 camp, and they said that that night nobody went among, nobody joined

5 the rest of the inmates that night. They were taken somewhere.

6 Q. Did you ever hear any officials from the camp or guards make

7 reference to what happened to those people?

8 A. Yes, several days later one of the prisoners tried to get out through

9 the fence near the gate and I was around there. The guard turned him

10 back asked him: "Where are you trying to go? Do you want ..." He tried

11 to explain to him where he was going and what he wanted and he said,

12 "Go back, or else you will be eaten by fish like those from a few days

13 ago."

14 Q. By "eaten by fish" was he referring to the nearby fish ponds?

15 A. Yes, from that statement of his one could infer, he sort of smiled

16 cynically, but I understood it to mean, as if they meant, as if those

17 people were taken to that fish pond and that they were killed there

18 and were thrown in there as fish food.

19 Q. Where were many of those prisoners who were beaten held, in what part

20 of the camp?

21 A. People who were found in the camp in various places were brought to

22 the commune centre. Sometimes they were interrogated, sometimes they

23 were beaten, and then they would be brought to the room which was our

24 former laboratory and some were then, some would be continuously

25 interrogated or beaten there.

Page 4655

1 Q. Can you describe the extent of the beatings suffered by some of the

2 prisoners who were brought to the lab?

3 A. Given that the laboratory was next to the clinic, we practically

4 shared the entrance. We could see who was being brought in. Also the

5 windows were open, so that we could hear those terrible sounds, those

6 screams, those wails of victims, of beatings. On the other hand,

7 the curses of the Serb soldiers who were beating them, we felt

8 horrible at that moment, we felt helpless. There was nothing we could

9 do and they would continue to beat them. This would happen very

10 often. They would beat them with all kinds of objects, with rifles,

11 pieces of furniture. They would stab them with knives, fists, feet,

12 especially later. After that torture when we came into the laboratory

13 we saw a lot of blood, on the walls, on the floor, imprints of their

14 boots, a horrible sight.

15 Q. Did you attempt to treat or assist in the treatment of some of these

16 beaten prisoners and what kinds of injuries did they suffer as a

17 result of the beatings?

18 A. Naturally, we always tried to reach those people who were detained

19 there. Sometimes we would succeed. Sometimes, unfortunately, we did

20 not. When we succeeded in begging the Commander or a guard who was in

21 front, then we would see different injuries. I remember what first

22 comes is those dark bruises, the back, in the kidney area, then

23 lacerations on the face. Then we had a patient who had peeled off a

24 part of the scalp. It was hanging, you could see the bone, and he

25 also had the left knee pierced through. Later I would also see

Page 4656

1 another man with a similar wound, except on both knees. They

2 apparently told him to cross legs, because the Muslims especially sit

3 that way, and then with a bayonet they would pierce through the knee.

4 So that those people during that wounding have damage of nerves. So

5 this patient of ours remained an invalid, unfortunately.

6 Q. Did you ever see a prisoner with a cross carved on his body, cut into

7 his body?

8 A. Yes, I saw that prisoner.

9 Q. In addition to being taken to the lab for beatings, were male

10 prisoners sometimes called out of the camp?

11 A. Pardon? I did not ----

12 Q. Were some prisoners simply called out of the camp and removed from

13 Trnopolje?

14 A. Yes, that also happened.

15 Q. Did prisoners make an effort to determine what had happened to these

16 prisoners, where they had gone?

17 A. Yes, usually the procedure was such that people were being called out

18 by name and last name. They were the guards, shifts two and three,

19 they had a list of names and they would go around the camp and they

20 would ask. Of course this was over a period of time. Sometimes

21 smaller, sometimes larger groups of men were taken away. Obviously,

22 we asked about them. What captured my attention was that very often

23 people who were called out would not appear in no other camp, another

24 camp such as Omarska, Keraterm or Manjaca. A very small number that

25 we know showed up there, many of them did not. Many of them were

Page 4657

1 taken away and disappeared, and many of them we do not know about

2 until today.

3 Q. Was the fate of some of the prisoners who were called out of

4 Trnopolje learned when their bodies had to be buried by other

5 prisoners near Trnopolje?

6 A. Yes. People would go out to the vicinity of the camp, they would

7 find the bodies of those people in the fields, behind hedges, in the

8 ravines, and then they would report it to us or to others, to the

9 guards. Then in some cases the command of the camp assigned some

10 people to go and bury those bodies. So that the fate of a smaller

11 number of people whom we recognised is known to us.

12 Q. Do you recall any groups of people who were taken out and whose

13 bodies were found?

14 A. Yes, one of those people who was digging, who was burying the dead,

15 later told me in the camp that they buried the Foric's, those were six

16 young men, related, who were taken out of the camp one afternoon by a

17 policeman. Apart from that, they buried two other men Ante and a

18 Zoran who were from Kozarac.

19 Q. Were there groups of people buried whose names were not necessarily

20 known?

21 A. Yes, some groups of people were found later when they were already

22 decomposing, so that they would collect them into a common grave and

23 they would bury them there. You could not recognise or do anything

24 else. There is a mass grave near there with 15, one with 16 such

25 corpses.

Page 4658

1 Q. Two separate ones, one with 15 corpses and another one with 16?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did some of the people who were forced to bury these victims come to

4 the clinic for medication or counselling?

5 A. Yes, they came. Usually they would come five or six days later and

6 they were threatened not to talk about it, who they saw and what they

7 did, because they would be killed too. However, in them it created

8 tension. It was the first time for some of them that they had to deal

9 with corpses at all. It was especially terrible that these corpses

10 were decomposing, so there was a stench and they could not bury it,

11 that psychological tension, those nightmares they had during the

12 night. In the end they decided to come to us and ask for help because

13 they trusted us, that we would not tell anything. We would give them

14 tablets to quieten them down. We tried to talk to them, to direct

15 them so they would forget that.

16 Q. Sir, you mentioned lists from which people were called out. Were

17 some of those lists created within the camp, within Trnopolje?

18 A. I do not know who wrote those lists, of course, but it is a fact that

19 I saw those lists from people who were in the management of the camp

20 and from those guards. Also the Red Cross had a list, a census of all

21 men who were in the camp at that time. It was said that who did not

22 report and was in the camp was going to be killed. Everybody had to

23 be registered. They were making, but of course there were other kinds

24 of lists. They were all being recorded into one big ledger.

25 Q. Were there occasions when people from outside the camp came to the

Page 4659

1 camp to provide lists, either of people to be called out or to be

2 compared against the list which had previously been prepared?

3 A. Yes, that happened on numerous occasions. I saw twice or more a

4 police vehicle, a van, with a policeman who would come to the camp

5 with a such a list, and the deputy commander would come, Slavko

6 Puhalic. He would give him the paper. They would comment on it.

7 They were looking at them. Then Slavko would give that list to the

8 Shift Commander and then he together with the soldiers, with the

9 guards, would go to the camp and was looking for people from those

10 lists, and when they were found they would be taken into the van and

11 driven off. That would repeat several times.

12 Q. Did the Deputy Commander Puhalic sometimes come to the clinic with

13 lists of names?

14 A. Yes, he also came to us. Probably he had some information or assumed

15 that we could know some of these people. I was also asked

16 specifically about some. He would sit with us at the table and he

17 would look at the list. We could also see it. It was a list of names

18 lined.

19 Q. Did the camp authorities such as Puhalic or Major Kuruzovic maintain

20 contact with Serbian officials in Prijedor?

21 A. Yes, they did.

22 Q. Was there a day when you were taken to the Crisis Staff in Prijedor?

23 A. Yes, I was in the Crisis Headquarters, namely, one of the guards got

24 sick. In fact he got a seizure and was brought to us, to the clinic,

25 and we gave him first aid. Then they told us that we had to go

Page 4660

1 together with this man to the hospital in Prijedor as his escort.

2 Q. About what time of the day was that?

3 A. That was morning, early in the morning.

4 Q. How were you transported to Prijedor?

5 A. We went by bus of the -- it is a local bus from Prijedor, a city bus,

6 which had brought the Red Cross people. There was no other vehicle at

7 that time. Every morning they would bring the Red Cross. So in that

8 bus with an escort we were taken to the neurological ----

9 Q. Was that bus driven by a Serbian soldier or driver who was at the

10 camp all the time?

11 A. That was a bus driver who was dressed in civilian clothes, but was

12 not a part of the guard in the camp.

13 Q. But he would regularly bring members of Serbian Red Cross to the

14 camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you were finished at the hospital did the driver want to take

17 you back to Trnopolje, back to the camp?

18 A. No, he refused to go back to Trnopolje. There was a little quarrel

19 with our escort who was there. Then the escort said, "So what shall

20 we do here in Prijedor? We have to go back." The driver said: "I am

21 taking you to the crisis centre in Cirkin Polje, then they can do

22 whatever they want with you", and that is exactly what he did. We got

23 off the bus and the soldier escorted, took us into a garage with a

24 guard who was there at that moment who was guarding that object at the

25 time, and he went into the crisis centre himself.

Page 4661

1 Q. After a period of time waiting there, which officials of the

2 Trnopolje camp came out of the Crisis Staff?

3 A. After about an hour or two of wait the guard said, "Come out", and

4 when we came out at the door in that moment there was a camp Commander

5 Slobodan Kuruzovic and Slavko Puhalic's deputy, two twin brothers who

6 were Balaban, they were escorts to the Commander -- no. That was all.

7 That was it.

8 Q. Did they take you back to Trnopolje camp?

9 A. Yes, the Commander, everybody had their own vehicles individually,

10 and the camp Commander said, "You are coming with me". We climbed

11 into his car and he took us towards Trnopolje. He talked a little.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will adjourn until Tuesday. As I indicated, we

13 will not be hearing this case tomorrow because of another matter that

14 we need to handle. Thank you. We will be adjourned until Tuesday at

15 10 a.m.

16 (5.30 p.m.)

17 (The court adjourned until Tuesday, 6th August 1996)

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