Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4889

1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T

2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER

4 Thursday, 8th August 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 (Hearing in closed session)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4890

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 4890 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4891

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 4891 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4892

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 4892 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4893

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 4893 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4894

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 4894 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4895

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (10.20 a.m.)

15 (Short Adjournment)

16

17 (Hearing in open session)

18 (10.25 a.m.)

19 MR. MUSTAFA MUJKANOVIC, recalled.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, cross-examination?

21 MR. KAY: Yes your Honour.

22 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

23 Q. Mr. Mujkanovic, you described seeing Dusko Tadic on 21st August 1992

24 at Trnopolje camp. You said that he was wearing civilian clothes.

25 Can you remember what those clothes were? Can you describe them to the

Page 4896

1 court?

2 A. Yes. He had jeans, rather faded, and a t-shirt which was not white,

3 which was, as we call it, like white coffee, coffee with milk, and he

4 had a jacket, we called them "McLeod" jackets but he was carrying it

5 in his hands.

6 Q. What sort of jacket was that, a "McLeod" jacket?

7 A. Well, they were very trendy at the time, those jackets, at least in

8 ex Yugoslavia. They were highly appreciated and they were worn by

9 people who were stronger, who were more strong built. They were quite

10 expensive. They were of leather imitation and inside there was a

11 special fur, depending on the colour, the colour of the fur varied.

12 On the outside and on the inside, the colour could vary.

13 Q. A coffee coloured leather jacket with a white woolen lining, is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. A lining that was on the inside as well as on the collar of the

17 jacket, would that be right?

18 A. No, different colours.

19 Q. You have given this description of him and it appears that he is

20 standing or walking in the area so that you can see all of his body,

21 is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. No question of a part of his body being obscured in any way?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you remember giving a statement about this in 1994, October 1994,

Page 4897

1 and describing seeing Dusko Tadic on this day?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Perhaps you would like to look at this statement and I tender it as

4 Defence 29, your Honour? (Handed). [To the witness]: This is a copy

5 in your own language of that interview that took place on 26th and

6 27th October 1994. Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. A Mr. Robert Reid was present at the time and there was an

9 interpreter on that day, do you remember?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. I would like you to turn to page 12 and you see the third paragraph,

12 the largest paragraph on that page?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If you could just read that paragraph to yourself to refresh your

15 memory?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you agree with me that there is nothing in that paragraph there

18 that relates to Dusko Tadic either walking around or standing near the

19 perimeter of Trnopolje camp?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The only description of Dusko Tadic being anywhere is you seeing him

22 in a Mercedes car, is that right?

23 A. Yes, that is the statement I made, but since nobody asked me to

24 specify how and what, the question was, "Did you see him?" and I saw

25 him. "How did you see him?" So, naturally I said he was in a

Page 4898

1 Mercedes and that he followed the convoy in a Mercedes. So I was not

2 asked any accurate, any detailed facts, and here I was asked to be

3 very precise, to speak in detail. That is why I do that. Had I been

4 asked to describe it in detail before, I would have done that, but I

5 did not say and I cannot say that I saw Dusko Tadic inside the camp --

6 not once. I cannot see that I saw Dusko Tadic hit anyone, but here,

7 before this court, I am giving detailed answers and, to my mind, that,

8 the other one was only a global answer.

9 Q. Let us look at the detail then. In that statement you say in the

10 sentence beginning "Nosio" fifth line from the bottom, if you could

11 read out that sentence, in fact, to the Court on page 12 in that

12 paragraph "Nosio je koznu", fifth line from the bottom of that

13 paragraph?

14 A. Sorry, do you mean the lines or?

15 Q. Perhaps Mr. Bos will hand it to me? I will make a mark where it is

16 to help you, Mr. Mujkanovic. Do you see where I have underlined some

17 words in the third paragraph? Perhaps you could read those out in

18 your own language so that we can hear what it says?

19 A. It says: "He was wearing a leather jacket of a coffee colour with

20 white woolen lining, which was also on the collar. I could not see

21 what else he was wearing".

22 Q. Thank you. You were asked those details as to what he was wearing,

23 were you not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would like you to see now a video clip. I tender this as D30, your

Page 4899

1 Honour. If the technical support could now play on our video monitors

2 a short passage of a video?

3 (The video was played)

4 A. I saw it.

5 Q. Hold that there. Thank you. You see on the screen there that

6 jacket?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you see this film before you gave that statement, Mr. Mujkanovic?

9 A. No, never.

10 Q. You did not see this film by Monika Gras on television? No?

11 A. No, sir. I am in a country which seldom, very seldom, offers any

12 information. Moreover, I do not know the language and I spent a very

13 long time in the camp so that I really had no opportunity to watch

14 anything.

15 Q. You were not interested in watching any programmes on these matters

16 in the country where you are?

17 A. Well, I was interested naturally, but such programmes are very, very

18 seldom shown, and I watch them also seldom.

19 Q. You see, this film was taken in 1994 in winter.

20 A. I would not know that.

21 Q. This summer in 1992 in the Prijedor region was an exceptionally hot

22 summer, was it not?

23 A. It was, but mornings and nights were quite cool.

24 Q. The description you have given of the jacket, was it this jacket that

25 you see being worn here on this occasion?

Page 4900

1 A. No, that jacket was slightly different cut. Yes, it is the same

2 material, but not the same cut. It had -- it was up to the waist

3 like a leather jacket. It went down to the waist and that is not that

4 jacket.

5 Q. So it seems then that the jacket being worn on this occasion that you

6 are describing in Trnopolje appears to be similar in colour and the

7 lining, lining on the collar that you said in your statement in 1994?

8 A. I do not know if it is by accident or not, but I claim that this is

9 not that jacket. This is a winter jacket for cold winter days and

10 that jacket is completely different. Whether the colours happen to be

11 the same, I do not know.

12 Q. How could you tell the cut of the jacket if it was being carried, Mr.

13 Mujkanovic?

14 A. I did not quite understand the question.

15 Q. I will repeat it. How could you tell the cut of the jacket and that

16 it was not the same as this one if it was being carried?

17 A. To begin with, sir, I am not blind and I also know what a jacket,

18 what a short jacket is and what a long jacket is, because had he been

19 carrying a long jacket, it would have been at least 60, 70 centimetres

20 on each side or even more hanging, I mean, if you carry it in your

21 hand dangling, and that jacket was shorter, much shorter, almost half

22 the size.

23 Q. Why in 1994 when you were questioned about this matter did you say

24 you could not see anything else he was wearing?

25 A. I said what he was wearing. I did not say that he had been carrying

Page 4901

1 a pistol. I said he had jeans and what we call an under -- a t-shirt

2 with short sleeves and that in his hands he had and I said nothing

3 else.

4 Q. You have described in this courtroom to me only a few minutes ago

5 that he was wearing jeans and a t-shirt, and yet in 1994 you only

6 describe a coffee coloured leather jacket and say you could not see

7 what else he was wearing. So why did you say that in 1994?

8 A. Sir, I stated before this court the following, that I had given a

9 general statement and here I was asked for precise details and I am

10 doing my best to give detailed answers. That is that. Had I been

11 asked what I saw, I came to this court only to say what I had seen and

12 what I had gone through, so do not think that I am blaming anyone.

13 Q. The reason why you only describe those articles of clothing in 1994

14 is because you had seen this film here on the television, is that not

15 right?

16 A. No, I did not see the film.

17 Q. You have not been telling us the truth about this jacket?

18 A. Sir, your Honours, I did not come here to tell lies because I have no

19 need to lie. I am telling the truth. I took the oath and it would

20 have been a lie (and a very big lie) if I said that I had killed my

21 family, that we ourselves raped our mothers and sisters, that we drove

22 ourselves to camps or banished from our own country. That would be a

23 lie and I have no interest in lying.

24 I did not go to a fashion show, sir. I was in a camp. I was

25 trying to save my life. I was twice condemned to death, sir. I do

Page 4902

1 apologise. You are doing your job and I respect that, but if what you

2 just said and what I am getting in my mother's tongue, that means that

3 I am lying. I did not come here to accuse anyone. Sir, I came here

4 only because this Court invited me to give a statement. I did not

5 come because of Dusko Tadic or for this one or that one. I never

6 meddled in politics or anything else. I am just a common man like all

7 other simple mortals.

8 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I have no further questions. D30, which I have

9 tendered, I now offer as an Exhibit.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to D30?

11 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: D30 will be admitted.

13 MR. KAY: Your Honour, what I have done to assist the Court is actually

14 have the significant clip printed out so that we will not have to keep

15 the video. I think the Prosecution will understand that.

16 MISS HOLLIS: Is the Defence then only submitting part of the Exhibit

17 because the video also showed some footage of a person from the back.

18 MR. KAY: Yes. I have just taken the cut out of the freeze frame that we

19 had.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will admit D30 as the video clip. We can use

21 that as D30A.

22 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

24 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. D30A will be the photo or a photo.

Page 4903

1 MR. KAY: Thank you.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any additional questions, Miss Hollis?

3 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Mr. Mujkanovic being permanently

5 excused?

6 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Mujkanovic, you are permanently excused. You

8 are free to leave. Thank you for coming. You may leave now.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

10 (The witness withdrew)

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Now we were hearing from Mr. Blazevic, is that

12 correct?

13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Had you concluded your direct -- I do not think so.

15 MR. NIEMANN: I had, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You had, I am sorry. Would you ask Mr. Blazevic to

17 come in?

18

19 MR. MIRSAD BLAZEVIC, recalled

20 Cross-examined by MISS DE BERTODANO

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Blazevic, you are still under oath. You

22 understand that?

23 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano, will you conduct cross?

25 MISS DE BERTODANO: Yes, your Honour.

Page 4904

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may proceed.

2 Q. Mr. Blazevic, you were telling us yesterday something about your

3 relationship with Dusko Tadic before the war. It appears that you did

4 not know him very well, is that right?

5 A. No, I knew him well, and the whole of Kozarac knew him well and the

6 vicinity of Kozarac.

7 Q. You told the Court that you saw him very rarely?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You went into the town of Kozarac seldom?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In fact when you gave a statement to the Prosecution in June 1995, do

12 you recall that ----

13 A. I should.

14 Q. --- in that statement you told the Prosecutor's Office that the last

15 time you had seen Dusko Tadic before the war was in 1989 or 1990?

16 A. I cannot remember exactly the year or the month or the date.

17 Q. But it was some two to three years before the conflict?

18 A. One could say that.

19 Q. Did you know Dusko Tadic as a man who wore a beard or as a man who

20 was clean shaven?

21 A. Both.

22 Q. Meaning that he sometimes wore a beard and sometimes did not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You went on to tell us about an occasion on which you saw him in

25 Trnopolje camp in August, is that right?

Page 4905

1 A. It is.

2 Q. You saw him from around a corner entering the premises of the Red

3 Cross?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did he have a beard on that occasion?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You next saw him when you had been taken out on forced labour?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This forced labour consisted of taking water meters from deserted

10 houses?

11 A. Burnt houses.

12 Q. Were you chosen at random for this job or were you taken because of

13 your experience as a plumber?

14 A. They picked me out because I know the area and I had worked in the

15 area.

16 Q. Did the guards who took you on this forced labour have any authority

17 with them for what they were doing? Did they have any documents

18 authorising them to take these water meters?

19 A. I know nothing about that. Nobody ever showed me, but it was my

20 former company which did it.

21 Q. So were you taken to a particular house and asked to remove the water

22 meter from that house and so on, or did you just pick houses from the

23 street as you went along and went in to get the water meters from

24 them?

25 A. We, the inmates, went from door to door and the guards would be

Page 4906

1 standing at the entrance of the house, and we would go into the yard

2 and take out the water meters and loaded them on to a truck.

3 Q. So what was, in fact, happening was that these houses were being

4 looted, is that right?

5 A. I do not understand how you mean it? "Looted"? Those houses were

6 already burnt, the ones that we took water meters out. There was

7 nothing in the houses or in front of the houses.

8 Q. But, as far as you know, no one had any permission to take these

9 water meters?

10 A. I think that my company was the only one authorised throughout,

11 across the territory of the municipality of Prijedor to first build in

12 the water meters. I mean, when somebody would build something, he

13 would pay for this and we, who worked for the company, were authorised

14 to put in those water meters and then the new house would get the

15 water. But these houses, the owner, if the owner would be killed or

16 disappear or whatever, then this water meter would belong to the

17 company that had put it in its place.

18 Q. At some stage while you were engaged in labour, you came to the

19 crossroads in Kozarac where Marsala Tita Street joins the Banja

20 Luka/Prijedor road, is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The truck stopped at the crossroads?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The guards who were in charge of you were questioned as to what they

25 were doing?

Page 4907

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you in the truck when that was happening?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Where were you?

5 A. I was eating by the bus, having my breakfast.

6 Q. Your guards started to refuse to unload their supplies of water

7 meters as they were requested to do?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You said in evidence yesterday that at that point you were engaged in

10 taking a water meter from the Zema store, is that right?

11 A. A little bit after I had breakfasted.

12 Q. So you first had your breakfast and this conversation started while

13 you were having your breakfast?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You were then ordered to go into the store and take the meter out of

16 the store?

17 A. In front of the store, yes.

18 Q. This happened while the conversation was still going on?

19 A. The conversation was over by then -- in fact, it still went on. They

20 were still talking something to the civilian police.

21 Q. But the guard who ordered you to go into the store was not taking

22 heed of the obstruction which was being caused at the crossroads?

23 A. We were all paying attention.

24 Q. But whether you were paying attention or not, the guard was not

25 taking this seriously in that he was asking you to carry on with your

Page 4908

1 job?

2 A. Here it is, when we came to the intersection itself, we started

3 working right away. We took the water meters out of several houses.

4 Then we went back to the truck. Myself and Aziz Mujkanovic got

5 breakfast from one of the guards, the people who guarded us, and then

6 we started eating our breakfast. In the meantime, some had not

7 arrived yet, but the two of us had arrived. Then they were talking.

8 There was some negotiation. They were talking about something with the

9 civilian police, I think his name was Goran Babic whom I also knew --

10 he was in the civilian police -- and some other guys who were in the

11 police, those were the reserve police whom I knew because they were my

12 neighbours.

13 They came over to me. I greeted them. They asked me what I

14 was doing, how I was there. I told them that I was in the camp,

15 Trnopolje. They asked me what were our plans, those guys from the

16 reserve police, and I told them that we had a task by the company and

17 the camp Commander to fix the water for Trnopolje and the other places

18 surrounding Trnopolje that had not been destroyed.

19 The guy from the police who knew me well through my brother

20 told me, "Where is the main?" that had been broken, that he himself

21 had broken the main during the attack on Kozarac, and described

22 exactly the location and I said to my team, in order not to search up

23 and down the line which is pretty long, that "I know exactly where

24 the break was, that the man told me". That is -- that was my contact

25 with the civilian police, but I had not spoken to Dusan Tadic at that

Page 4909

1 time at all.

2 Q. So there were several other policemen around at the time apart from

3 Goran Babic and the man you described as Dusko Tadic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You went into the store to take out the water meter and you heard a

6 man called Boca telling someone not to argue with this man as he was

7 the Commander of the special forces, is that right?

8 A. Yes, that was what Boca said, but from Kozarac, from the main

9 asphalt, the so-called new asphalt, Banja Luka/Prijedor, there was the

10 main Commander of SUP, and two of his bodyguards were arriving. I

11 also knew him but I did not know him as the Commander of the SUP, but

12 as a man who had high education and was working in the local agency

13 for the education. I did not know that this man was the Commander,

14 the chief of the SUP. He approached me and he said, since he knew me,

15 that I was working for the water company, first, he asked me what I

16 was doing and I told him. This man who was with me in the uniform, he

17 said that he had organised with Mirko Sanicanin, my boss, that we

18 should do everything what we were doing, and they should go to Kozarac

19 to mark the objects that have been burnt down for demolition. That

20 was all close to Dusan Tadic and Boca and this Zema, maybe 150 to 200

21 metres.

22 Q. So is what you are saying that the Commander of the SUP was arriving

23 on the scene at the time with his two bodyguards?

24 A. Yes, yes, I did say that, yes.

25 Q. The water meter that you were taking from the store, Zema, did you

Page 4910

1 put that into the truck?

2 A. I do not remember but, as far as I recall, I only brought it up to

3 the truck.

4 Q. The truck was then unloaded?

5 A. It seems to me that, I do not know if they were unloading or they had

6 unloaded. I do not remember.

7 Q. By this time how many people altogether would you say were on the

8 scene, including the prisoners on forced labour, the guards with you,

9 the policemen who you met there and the Commander of SUP and whoever

10 was with him?

11 A. We were, the workers who were in forced labour, four or five, also

12 there were three or four of our guards that were guarding us. There

13 was Dusan Tadic. There was -- and then Boca was coming, the driver

14 from the company, for the wholesale company. Then there were the

15 policemen. I do not know exactly. There were the active and the

16 reserve ones, those civilian. I do not know the exact number.

17 Q. But there was quite a group of people at the scene? You then left

18 the scene with the truck to go back to the camp, is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. As you were leaving, you saw a tractor with furniture arrive?

21 A. Yes, logs.

22 Q. I think yesterday you said logs and furniture.

23 A. Yes, it could have been the other order but they were both there on

24 the truck.

25 Q. Once again the tractor, like you had been, is asked to unload?

Page 4911

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As you are leaving, you hear the words that you described to us

3 yesterday, and I am quoting, "Nothing can leave Kozarac, not a piece

4 of a match. I liberated Kozarac and nobody is going to take anything

5 out of Kozarac, only over my dead body".

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Those were the exact words that you heard?

8 A. Yes, those are the words that I heard.

9 Q. When were you first asked to remember these words being said?

10 A. I do not understand you.

11 Q. When did someone first ask you about these events and you recounted

12 that scene to them?

13 A. When I was first asked that -- is that what you mean?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. When I was giving the statement for the first time.

16 Q. So that was in June 1995?

17 A. I do not remember exactly either the year or the date, believe me.

18 Q. During all this time you had not spoken directly to the man you have

19 described as Dusan Tadic?

20 A. If you could please repeat the question?

21 Q. During the events you have just described, you did not have any

22 conversation with the man you have described as Dusan Tadic?

23 A. I cannot remember whether I greeted him or no. Edhem Demirovic did

24 greet him. I saw that well.

25 Q. Did Dusan Tadic have a beard at this time?

Page 4912

1 A. No.

2 Q. Since you left the area, have you seen any programmes on television

3 about Dusko Tadic or about the camps?

4 A. No, on average I have not.

5 Q. On average you have not. Does that mean you never have seen any

6 programmes?

7 A. I only saw when he was arrested. When he was arrested in Munich, the

8 Croatian television showed that and the German television and, I

9 believe, other European countries as well.

10 Q. What I am going to suggest to you, Mr. Blazevic, is that it was not

11 until you saw his arrest on television that you thought you might have

12 seen Dusko Tadic on these two occasions?

13 A. But I knew Dusan Tadic well. How should I doubt myself? As soon as I

14 saw him on television I said, "Here is Dusan Tadic" when I was in

15 Trnopolje, and then I told her the whole situation.

16 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing further, your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

18 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour

19 Re-Examined by MR. NIEMANN

20 Q. Mr. Blazevic, you were asked some questions about the people present

21 there in Kozarac at the scene where the water meters were being

22 collected. You mentioned that the Commander of the SUP was present

23 also on that occasion, is that right? Is that what you said?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was the Commander of the SUP there during the whole period of time

Page 4913

1 that Dule Tadic was there?

2 A. I only saw him going towards Dule Tadic, and when did they get

3 together and what they talked about that, I do not know anything

4 about.

5 Q. Do you know whether the Commander of the SUP was there present when

6 Dule Tadic said that the water meters had to be taken off the truck,

7 can you remember that?

8 A. He was not present.

9 Q. Did the Commander of the SUP at any stage intervene in this dispute

10 that was going on about whether or not the meters should be taken off

11 the truck or not that you saw?

12 A. No.

13 Q. From what you were able to observe, did it appear to you that the

14 Commander of the SUP was Dule Tadic's superior or was it the other way

15 around?

16 A. Would you explain that, "superior"? How do you mean "superior"?

17 Q. Who do you think, from your observation, was the person there with

18 the most authority? Was it the Commander of the SUP or was it Dule

19 Tadic?

20 A. I really cannot tell you that. I do not know.

21 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. No further questions.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss De Bertodano?

23 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing arising, your Honour.

24 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, when you say the Commander of the SUP, that was

25 the local SUP for the village, was it?

Page 4914

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

4 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano?

6 MISS DE BERTODANO: No, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Blazevic being

8 permanently excused?

9 MISS DE BERTODANO: No objection.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir. You are permanently excused. You are free to

11 leave. Thank you for coming.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you as well.

13 (The witness withdrew)

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Your next witness is 67 on your list?

15 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Arifagic, the Prosecution calls Jusuf Arifagic.

16

17 MR. JUSUF ARIFAGIC, called.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you stand, please, and take the oath?

19 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

20 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

21 (The witness was sworn)

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

23 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

24 Q. Sir, is your full name Jusuf Arifagic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4915

1 Q. When were you born?

2 A. 17th August 1961.

3 Q. What is your place of birth?

4 A. Kozarac, municipality of Prijedor.

5 Q. Was it in the town of Kozarac itself or did you live in one of the

6 surrounding parts of Kozarac?

7 A. I was born in one of the parts of Kozarac which is called Stari Grad.

8 Q. Is that the old part of Kozarac, is it?

9 A. Yes, that is the old part of Kozarac, from the history.

10 Q. How far, approximately, would that have been from the centre of the

11 town, the centre of Kozarac?

12 A. From the very centre, from the Marsala Tita Street, about one

13 kilometre.

14 Q. Where did you attend your primary school?

15 A. The primary school I completed in Kozarac.

16 Q. Where did you go to do your secondary schooling?

17 A. The secondary school was in the middle school centre in Prijedor.

18 Q. During the course of your education what were you trained as?

19 A. That was, I was a machine technologist at the end of my secondary

20 school training.

21 Q. Is that commonly known as a mechanic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. With which company did you work?

24 A. I worked in Montmontaza in Zagreb, Croatia.

25 Q. What was the nature of that work?

Page 4916

1 A. They worked, they were building refineries and they were assembling

2 certain industrial facilities and I worked in the anti-corrosive unit.

3 Q. Even though you were working in Zagreb, did you from time to time

4 come back to the town of Kozarac?

5 A. Yes, all my free time, which means the holidays, I spent in Kozarac.

6 Q. Was your family home in Kozarac?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was your family home which you would come back to during your free

9 time in Stari Grad?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you also with this company work in Libya?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Again during your free time, would you then travel back to your home

14 in Kozarac?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you do your military service in 1980/81?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was that in Serbia that you did your military service?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are you by your ethnic group Muslim?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At the beginning of 1992 where were you at that particular time?

23 A. I was at home in Kozarac.

24 Q. Had you returned on leave, on extended leave, from Libya?

25 A. Yes, I was on an extended leave because I had been building my family

Page 4917

1 home at the time.

2 Q. This was a new home that you were building?

3 A. Yes, until then I lived together with my family in my father's house.

4 Q. Where was the new home that you were building at that time?

5 A. Immediately, in the immediate vicinity of my father's house, about 50

6 to 100 metres away.

7 Q. So for the first months of 1992, starting from January through to May

8 1992, you were present in Kozarac, is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. During that time did you see a build-up in the region of Prijedor, a

11 build-up of military activity?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see the JNA become more active in this particular area,

14 particularly around Kozarac?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In addition to that, did you also observe a change in the television

17 transmissions that you used to be able to receive when you were

18 living in Kozarac?

19 A. Yes, during one period of time radio television Banja Luka and

20 through that radio television Belgrade was the only TV programme that

21 we could watch.

22 Q. On the programmes that you could watch, was there a build-up of

23 anti-Muslim, anti-Croatian television publications and propaganda?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In February or March 1992, did you see helicopters operating in the

Page 4918

1 area?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were they operating during the day or the night?

4 A. This was happening exclusively at night.

5 Q. Prior to this time was it common to see helicopters flying in and

6 about the Kozarac area?

7 A. Very rarely.

8 Q. At about this time, February/March 1992, how often did you hear the

9 helicopters operating around the area of Kozarac?

10 A. Quite frequently. As I pointed out, it was all happening at night

11 and often they would use Mount Kozara towards a village, Balte, going

12 towards Banja Luka.

13 Q. Were you told or given certain information about what these

14 helicopters were doing?

15 A. Yes, we got certain information. Apparently, they were coming to the

16 village of Balte and bringing in weapons.

17 Q. Who gave you this information?

18 A. My cousin who was then working in the legal police in Prijedor and

19 Omarska, mostly those places.

20 Q. Had he told you that he had been involved in ascertaining what was

21 happening with respect to these helicopters?

22 A. Yes, he told me that they were invited by citizens, that helicopters

23 were landing there and that, as far as they knew, they were unloading

24 arms there, and so the patrols were being sent there. The Commander

25 of the local police station was sending them and they were told that

Page 4919

1 they were the routine military exercises.

2 Q. Do you know whether or not the arms that were being unloaded were

3 distributed during this period?

4 A. Probably they were. After the attack on Kozarac the artillery was

5 active, was operating from that village.

6 Q. Thank you. At the end of April and the beginning of May, as a result

7 of the increasing tension in the area, were the people of Kozarac,

8 some of the people in Kozarac, forming themselves into guards, guard

9 units?

10 A. It was not really a guard. There were sentries even though there was

11 already Territorial Defence in Kozarac which had been activated. I

12 think that an explanation should be added. The Territorial Defence

13 was guaranteed by constitution of Yugoslavia, and they were attached

14 to the JNA and they wore the JNA uniforms and they were regular units.

15 Q. Was a guard unit set up separate and distinct from the Territorial

16 Defence, so far as you know?

17 A. No, that happened later. That was an initiative on the part of

18 citizens that at night somebody should always be awake to follow what

19 was going on in the village.

20 Q. Yes, and that is what I am talking about. Did you become yourself

21 part of this initiative of the citizens of Kozarac to provide guards

22 at various points around the town?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where were you assigned?

25 A. Part of the time, at first that means, I was only in my village, in

Page 4920

1 Stari Grad, but about seven to 10 days before the attack on Kozarac, a

2 decision was made to create a line around the entire Kozarac so that

3 we could observe movements and I was in the village of Javori.

4 Q. Were you armed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you wear any sort of uniform?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What arms did you have assigned to you?

9 A. A hunting rifle. Usually, it was the -- those were the weapons who

10 had, that villagers had, so when the shift would change people would

11 keep the same piece of weapon.

12 Q. So this hunting rifle was not yours, it was something that was given

13 to you?

14 A. No.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Is that a convenient time, your Honour?

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

17 (11.30 a.m.)

18 (Short Adjournment)

19 (11.50 a.m.)

20 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Niemann, there was some reference to "Balte". It

21 would be interesting to know where or what Balte is.

22 MR. NIEMANN: I will clarify that, your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Arifagic, you said that you were appointed to carry out guard

24 duty at a place called Balte. Can you tell us where that is?

25 A. I said I was a guard around Kozarac, towards the village of Balte and

Page 4921

1 a separation line, the last Muslim village in the direction of the

2 Serb village Balte. Balte is on the left-hand side of the

3 Prijedor/Banja Luka road about two to 2.5 kilometres off the highway

4 right at the foothills of Mountain Kozara. I think there was a kind of

5 a mine or, rather, a quarry -- no, I think they were getting sand

6 there for construction purposes.

7 Q. What were your duties when you had to go to guard duty, what did you

8 have to do?

9 A. Everywhere -- [I am sorry] -- just an ordinary, normal guard duty.

10 Q. Were you given any special instructions about engagement with people

11 or what were you told to do?

12 A. All instructions came down to observe and that if in case of an

13 attempt, that is, if anybody tried to enter that area, to halt him,

14 see who that was. There were explicit orders not to fire, not to

15 shoot, but to report to political and police authorities in Kozarac

16 itself.

17 Q. Was there anyone, in particular, that you had to report to in

18 Kozarac?

19 A. Yes, there was Captain Sead Cirkin.

20 Q. Where was he located, in what part of Kozarac?

21 A. I think that at that time he was in the village of Besici.

22 Q. The people that you were to ascertain whether or not they were trying

23 to enter the area, was there someone who was prevented from entering

24 the area and, if so, who?

25 A. No. It was only control and nothing else. I remember that on the

Page 4922

1 eve of the attack itself people from Balte used to shop in the nearby

2 shop in the village of Javori. I believe they would come there to do

3 their shopping and sit down, have a beer and go back.

4 Q. These people that came in, were details of them taken down and

5 reported to Captain Cirkin when they came through?

6 A. No, it was only visual control, that is, when anyone entered with

7 arms or anyone would try to do something, so it was only observation.

8 Q. Was this a formal military or paramilitary type organisation that you

9 were a member of? Did it have a command structure of some sort? You

10 mentioned Captain Cirkin.

11 A. Immediately prior to the attack it was decided that people from the

12 area of Kozarac should be activated, and in case of an attack on

13 Kozarac to try to defend themselves because they were trying to remain

14 loyal to the authorities in Sarajevo, and did not want to express

15 their loyalty to any other state, especially the Serb Republic. Under

16 the old constitution, every Republic was authorised to activate its

17 Territorial Defence in case of an attack against it.

18 Q. But I think, if I heard you correctly, that you said earlier that it

19 was not part of the Territorial Defence, this guard unit that you were

20 a member of, is that right, or did it change?

21 A. In that the two terms are confused. Territorial Defence military

22 uniforms had already been activated a long time before that in

23 Kozarac, but immediately prior to the attack it was decided that

24 almost all the population in Kozarac be activated to be ready to

25 observe. Of course, they had also been warned against provoking

Page 4923

1 anyone.

2 Q. I think that the road from Prijedor to Banja Luka was blocked, was

3 it, just prior to the attack on Kozarac?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As a consequence of this road being blocked and just immediately

6 prior to the attack on Kozarac, did the guard unit that you were a

7 member of establish a checkpoint at Kozarusa?

8 A. No.

9 Q. What happened? You tell us.

10 A. I think that the second group of people, that is, those directly from

11 Kozarusa had certain duties and that they only monitored it, since the

12 road was blocked, only at the place called Orlovci, that any attempt

13 of the inhabitants of Kozarac to go to their municipality was

14 prevented.

15 Q. Was there a check point established in the direction of Banja Luka?

16 A. I think that there was also observation there, but I was not at that

17 guard point so I do not know whether it was a typical guard point or

18 what it was.

19 Q. When the attack on Kozarac began, where were you at the time?

20 A. I was in the village of Javori.

21 Q. What were you doing?

22 A. We were all at our posts, that is, we were observing and monitoring

23 the situation.

24 Q. Was the place that you were at itself under attack or was the attack

25 more focused on Kozarac?

Page 4924

1 A. No, that place was not attacked directly. I think the first place of

2 attack on Kozarac was in the area of the village of Duracak towards

3 Garevci from the direction of our point.

4 Q. Did you have any communication with Captain Cirkin at your guard post

5 when the attack began?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What was the nature of that communication, are you able to remember?

8 A. It was a makeshift radio station. I think it was a combination of

9 an ordinary police radio, so that one could establish a direct link

10 with Captain Cirkin or the others who were providing the communication

11 from the place where he was.

12 Q. I think there may be some misunderstanding. What I was asking is,

13 not the means by which you communicated, but what the communication

14 was.

15 A. Right. I did not communicate directly with no one from Captain

16 Cirkin's staff, but I heard from the radio station which was switched

17 on that a man was on the air and saying that fire was opened on them

18 from the direction of Orlovci, and that they were shelling them with

19 certain kinds of weapons and I also heard the report of Captain Cirkin

20 not to open fire, not to respond with fire and to wait.

21 Q. Was it to wait until further order or wait till when?

22 A. It was said directly not to respond with fire, to try to protect

23 people from the attack, that is, to find some shelter to avoid

24 wounding and to wait for further instructions. In case somebody tried

25 physically to break through, to enter, the area of Kozarac, then to

Page 4925

1 report again to the command for further instructions.

2 Q. Just prior to this, were you aware of the fact that guards had been

3 placed around the Orthodox church in Kozarac?

4 A. Not this, I think that the Kozarac police was on guard there and

5 that, allegedly, somebody wanted to blow this church so that it could

6 be later on represented as the Muslims had done it and so that it

7 could be used us a pretext for the attack. According to some

8 information, but that is only what I heard, is that the police was

9 trying to protect the church and that is why they stood guard around

10 it.

11 Q. So the guards around the church were different units to your unit,

12 is that right, to the guard unit that you were in?

13 A. No, those were lawful police from Kozarac.

14 Q. When the attack on Kozarac commenced and you received your orders

15 from Captain Cirkin, what happened then, what was the next thing to

16 happen, so far as you were concerned?

17 A. We remained quiet. Of course, we were on the alert. Some of the

18 citizens and some of the people in the village of Javori were all

19 awake, did not know what to do. At any rate, I realised that some

20 order had to be introduced, that is, that people ought to stay in

21 their houses and to look for some protection because the shelling had

22 already started, that is, the shelling in the area of Kozarac itself

23 had begun, and people were on increased alert. They were only

24 observing and they were all at their posts.

25 Q. On 26th May 1992, by this stage had you lost contact with Captain

Page 4926

1 Cirkin?

2 A. Yes, I think I lost contact already in the night between the 25th and

3 26th May.

4 Q. After you had lost contact with Captain Cirkin, what did you then do?

5 A. The 26th, I took the car and tried to go into Kozarac to see what was

6 going on.

7 Q. What did you see?

8 A. Well, allegedly, at the time nobody knew where the Captain was. I

9 came across some of the medical personnel in a motel which was under

10 construction at Rejkovici. There was the medical staff there. I

11 found a woman killed by a sniper and her husband was looking for

12 someone to help him bury her. In that place I saw a seven year old

13 girl which, I believe, had also been hit by a sniper in the forehead.

14 She was lying there. I merely looked at those scenes. The police

15 Commander, nobody knew where he was, so I realised that chaos was

16 reigning in Kozarac, that shops had already -- that all the window

17 shops had been broken, people were frantic, shells were falling, and

18 all I could do was to go back to the village of Javori.

19 Q. Was then a decision made to try to do something at least to save the

20 citizens of Kozarac?

21 A. At that time on the line itself, my cousin joined me. He was a

22 policeman but realised in Javori itself, because it was already being

23 shelled, and that the villagers ought to be protected somehow. So we

24 tried to organise other location to the next village where there were

25 already some 10,000 civilians.

Page 4927

1 Q. So what did you do?

2 A. Yes, that is what we did.

3 Q. Was an attempt made to contact the Serbian forces and to negotiate

4 with them?

5 A. Yes, that step was made. I and this cousin of mine talked, so people

6 expected from him because he was a policeman. So he took a motorcycle

7 or a moped with a white flag and went from that area of Stari Grad.

8 We could see Serb tanks and the army which had when I entered Kozarac,

9 and he went to talk to Zoran Karlica who at that time was the

10 Commander of the armoured unit.

11 Q. Did you observe what your cousin, the policeman, did with respect to

12 Zoran Karlica as you were looking through binoculars?

13 A. Yes, I followed him through the binoculars. There was an agreement

14 with us to watch, to observe and to see what would happen to him.

15 Q. What did happen to him?

16 A. I was following him, and I know that the moment he approached the

17 tank on which Zoran Karlica was sitting, I could already see how the

18 weapons were aimed at him, but I believe that Zoran Karlica had raised

19 his hand or, rather, gave a sign to prevent it. So he came to him and

20 they talked and returned after some 10 minutes.

21 Q. When he returned to you, what did he tell you, that is, your cousin,

22 the policeman?

23 A. He told me that he had been given instructions by Zoran Karlica to

24 take his wife and two children, take his car and form a column of

25 civilians and then start moving in the direction of the tanks, so that

Page 4928

1 just towards Kozarac, but that he was to head the column. Allegedly,

2 reportedly, Zoran Karlica told him that as long as the column was

3 moving, that is, as long as there was a certain continuity, that they

4 would stop the shelling and that all those who remained in that circle

5 who did not go out were to be liquidated, according to Zoran Karlica's

6 words.

7 Q. Then, as a consequence of that, did the women and children in the

8 area surrender?

9 A. Yes, I tried to send people to inform all the people about this, so

10 that people were informed in time. People were thinking, some were

11 for, some were against, but I think that a column was formed. My

12 cousin came to head it. He started his car and people moved after

13 him. I believe that Serb units in the village of Balte, I believe,

14 had already entered, fire was -- and people were moving normally.

15 Q. Did you join this column or did you do something else?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What did you do?

18 A. I headed for the mountain of Kozara.

19 Q. Were you still armed at this stage?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you headed towards the mountain of Kozara, did you subsequently

22 meet up again with Captain Cirkin?

23 A. Yes, I met Captain Cirkin on 27th.

24 Q. Did some of the people in your group then make plans about what they

25 were to do?

Page 4929

1 A. One ought to mention an incident there. As we were crossing the

2 road, Kozarac/Mrakovica, people came into an ambush and an enormous

3 number of people were captured and quite a number of them were

4 liquidated at Zeciji Kamen next to the settlement of Benkovac. Other

5 people continued towards the woods and succeeded in meeting with

6 Captain Cirkin. Some people were for continuing the struggle and

7 others were advocating surrender. At any rate, chaos reigned.

8 Q. Was a decision made in your group to mount a fresh attack?

9 A. Yes, some people were for it, to try to re-enter Kozarac, but Captain

10 Cirkin was against it. He said, more or less, that we lacked strength

11 to do that, that nobody could be done now and that we would be best to

12 split into smaller groups and try to make, break through to Croatia,

13 that is, to run for life. That is what it amounted to.

14 Q. What did you do?

15 A. Naturally, with that group or, rather, two or three men who were with

16 me all the time, we tried to come closer to Kozarac. However, fire was

17 opened on us and some people were liquidated. Then again towards the

18 night we went back to the place where Captain Cirkin was.

19 Q. How long did this go on for? How long were you there in this area?

20 A. I believe it was 27th when I returned to that place where Captain

21 Cirkin was. We were informed that he had allegedly disappeared, and

22 as we were coming there, I met Becir Medunjanin, the then SDA

23 President in Kozarac. He was with his wife. I believe there was

24 another man with him called Fazlic and they were moving in the

25 direction of Kozarac. I never saw him again after that.

Page 4930

1 Q. Did you then stay in the forest for some period of days, a number of

2 days?

3 A. Yes, but not in that part. I tried to cross again the road,

4 Kozarac/Mrakovica, and go back to my village to see what had happened

5 or, rather, I tried to go there to see what had happened with my

6 family.

7 Q. Where was the forest that you stayed in?

8 A. It was a forest which people called Tadica Suma.

9 Q. How long were you in this forest for?

10 A. In that forest I stayed for about two or three days and then I tried

11 to cross the road Prijedor/Banja Luka, because I had already received

12 some information that my younger brother had been captured and put in

13 the Trnopolje camp. So I tried to cross the road and I managed to do

14 that. I reach the village of Mujkanovici. There, from my aunt, that

15 is, my mother's sister, I learnt that mine had spent sometime in the

16 camp of Trnopolje, that my father, since he was already 65 years of

17 age, had managed to obtain some kind of a certificate, that, at any

18 rate, my wife who was already expectant in the seventh month and my

19 daughters and my mother had gone to the village of Duracak since my

20 mother was from that village originally.

21 Q. Were you successful in meeting up with your family?

22 A. Yes, I did succeed to do that. Once my mother decided to risk it,

23 she knew that I was coming off into that place so she came to that

24 place and that is where we met.

25 Q. After you met your mother, what happened to you then?

Page 4931

1 A. After I met my mother, that is, it was sometime in the morning hours,

2 in the afternoon the Serb Army erupted that village. I think they

3 plastered it with shells, and we had to move from there, to move

4 towards the village of Sivci. But then we learnt that Sivci had been

5 cleansed, that all the men had been put on buses and that during the

6 cleanses many had been killed. So that after one or hour or two we

7 were encircled and captured.

8 Q. When you were captured, what then did they do to you?

9 A. I was taken to a group of people -- I think there were about 43 men

10 altogether -- to the nearby crossroads. They were already lying on

11 the ground with their hands at the back of their head and then the

12 common procedure followed, beating.

13 Q. What date was this?

14 A. That was 16th June.

15 Q. After you had been arrested and assembled in one place and after the

16 beatings had happened, what did they do with you then?

17 A. All was ordered to lie in column, two by two, with hands at the back

18 of their head and to head for the village of Sivci and then Gutici,

19 towards the Prijedor/Banja Luka highway. Throughout, naturally, there

20 was a selection of music which we had to sing accompanied by beatings

21 and all the rest.

22 Q. The music that you were singing to, was it any particular kind of

23 music?

24 A. Those were only Chetnik nationalistic songs which were prohibited

25 during communism in Yugoslavia for which one went to prison.

Page 4932

1 Q. The people that arrested you, do you know whether they were regular

2 JNA soldiers or were they some other unit?

3 A. No, they were not regular troops.

4 Q. Were they Serbs?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know whether they were Serbs from the local area or were they

7 Serbs that had been brought in?

8 A. I think that some of them were local Serbs. I think they were from

9 the locality called Gradina, or something like that. I knew some of

10 them but a considerable number of them were strangers.

11 Q. Do you know whether they belonged to any particular group or named

12 group?

13 A. I think that on a couple of occasions I heard them call themselves a

14 group from Gradina or Gradina group.

15 Q. Were these men well disciplined, that gathered you together, these

16 Serb militaries?

17 A. I do not think so -- anybody could do as he liked.

18 Q. Were some of them drunk?

19 A. Most of them were drunk.

20 Q. What happened to you then? Where were you taken then?

21 A. While we were moving though the village of Sivci, we stopped at

22 Hilmija Nukic's house. There was a post or something. At any rate,

23 there were very many Serb soldiers there and I think they were

24 drinking. At least, that is what it looked like. Many people were

25 ill-treated there, beaten, and we were there for about 15 or 20

Page 4933

1 minutes. Then we proceeded towards the village of Gutici in the

2 direction of the Prijedor/Banja Luka highway.

3 Q. Were you ultimately taken to a point where you were loaded on a bus?

4 A. Yes, we were driven next by the road and we were ordered to lie down

5 on this earth road with our hands at the back of our head. I was at

6 the front of the column. I think that I was some two or three metres

7 from the asphalt. Then a Serb soldier came to me, hit me on the hand,

8 ordered me to take off my watch. At that time the church, the bells

9 were chiming on the orthodox church of Kozarac and terrible fire could

10 be heard from that direction. There was a factory there. We called

11 it Kartonaza or something. That was the paper and pulp or something

12 factory next to the Prijedor/Banja Luka road.

13 Q. When you were captured were you armed?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you in military uniform at that time?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you have any other weapons on your possession such as bayonets,

18 knives or pistols?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When you were loaded on the buses, where were you taken then?

21 A. They took us towards the camp at Omarska, rather, to the locality of

22 Omarska.

23 Q. Did the bus reach Omarska camp?

24 A. Yes, the bus reached the Omarska camp and stopped, I think, at the

25 very entrance into the camp of Omarska. That is where it stopped.

Page 4934

1 Q. Did they do anything with respect to the ventilation and the

2 ventilation of the buses when you were in it?

3 A. Yes, they switched the heating on to the maximum all the time as we

4 rode in that bus, and beatings ensued so that we were a heap in the

5 middle of the bus. On the way, they would stop in front of various

6 pubs up to the entrance into Omarska, and we had to sing various

7 songs and that is how we got there.

8 Q. Did they close all the windows of the bus when they turned the

9 heaters on?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was it a warm night?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you reached Omarska, what happened?

14 A. Well, we were there for about half an hour. Then the driver

15 returned. The buses went on the move again. The rumour spread that

16 there were no room in Omarska and they took us back. Later on, we

17 learned that we were heading back to Prijedor again.

18 Q. Did you then proceed to Prijedor?

19 A. Yes, we were brought to the factory of ceramic tiles, Keraterm.

20 Q. What happened to you when you arrived at Keraterm?

21 A. Our bus passed the check ramp at the entrance into that factory. We

22 were ordered to get off the bus 10 by 10, to lie down on the ground

23 right by the bus, to put our hands at the back of our heads.

24 Q. When you did this, what happened then?

25 A. As I was in that posture and I could not, I dared not look, I could

Page 4935

1 only feel, so that one of the Serb soldiers was jumping on the backs

2 of people, that is, from one's back to another's back and then there

3 were kicks at the head and then there were rifle butts and God knows

4 what else.

5 Q. Was this day time or night time when this happened?

6 A. It was day time. I believe it was around 2 or 3 o'clock.

7 Q. After this occurred, what did they do with you?

8 A. They searched our pockets, ordered us to move into a room. That is

9 what they called a room. I believe they called it No. 2, and they

10 ordered us all to enter that room.

11 Q. When you entered that room, were there other prisoners being kept in

12 the room?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How many, approximately, were in that room by the time your group

15 moved in?

16 A. I believe there were about 200 to 300 people. I did not count and I

17 did not care much about counting at the time or paying attention to

18 anything.

19 Q. How long did you stay there in that room 2?

20 A. I think I stayed, I do not know exactly the time, but it had already

21 gotten dark, and some of the soldiers came in and said that all the

22 people who came in the last group to come out.

23 Q. What happened when you went out?

24 A. We were ordered again to lie down in front of all these cells, to put

25 our hands behind our head and again, naturally, the beatings started.

Page 4936

1 Q. Was this day time or night time when this happened?

2 A. This was night time.

3 Q. Was there any lighting provided when this beating took place?

4 A. The only lighting was that very checkpoint in the camp and so there

5 was very little light in front of the cells.

6 Q. No other light was provided?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How long in total did you stay in the camp at Keraterm?

9 A. In Keraterm I stayed till the beginning of August.

10 Q. During the time that you were kept in Keraterm, apart from the times

11 that you have now spoken of, were you beaten?

12 A. After that, no, because probably I was in such a condition that I did

13 not need any more beatings. There was one case when we were going to

14 lunch and something strange was going on that day. In addition to the

15 regular beating, as people were going, people were being beaten and

16 then I was beaten too. I think that I was able to get back into my

17 dormitory and then I, sort of, fell into a coma.

18 Q. What were people beaten with at Keraterm camp?

19 A. Anything that they had around -- weapons, iron bars, baseball bats.

20 Q. Who guarded the camp at Keraterm?

21 A. The Keraterm camp was guarded by Serb guards.

22 Q. Do you know whether they were part of the military, paramilitary or

23 were they part of the police?

24 A. I think that they were paramilitary units. Part of the people was

25 showing up in police uniforms. However, they were all the time under

Page 4937

1 the orders of people who wore military uniforms.

2 Q. Did guards or people come to the camp from time to time and carry out

3 beatings who were not regular guards at the camp?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Were the guards organised into shifts?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did each shift of guards have a particular shift boss in charge of

8 each shift of guards?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were some of the shift commanders more dangerous than others?

11 A. Yes, among us, inmates, we were always fearful if Kajin was the shift

12 Commander.

13 Q. When was the most dangerous period of time for the prisoners in the

14 camp? Was it during the day or during the night?

15 A. It was always the night. The period between 10 p.m. and that they

16 were being taken out and then again at around half past 1 or 2.00 in

17 the morning.

18 Q. The people being taken out, who took them out? Were they regular

19 guards or were they people who visited the camp or was it a mixture of

20 both?

21 A. It is hard to estimate or see. Sometimes we could by the voice we

22 could recognise that they would be the guards. What would happen when

23 they would call a person out and they would have to go out, we would

24 only find out if they were able to come back and survive and then they

25 were able to tell us.

Page 4938

1 Q. Did you observe people that had been killed in Keraterm camp while

2 you were there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How often did you see people who had been killed in the camp?

5 A. Quite often, most of those people never returned. During the day,

6 that means after that night, we often had an opportunity to see dead

7 bodies in the dumping area which was nearby. Then during the day

8 there would be a small truck -- there was a name of the company on the

9 cover -- and it would remove the bodies.

10 Q. Were the dead bodies put in the same place generally, in the same

11 area, each morning?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Where were they put?

14 A. One part of these people, after the coming and the going, they would

15 just die in the dormitory and we would have to wait until the next

16 morning. Sometimes men would be brought out of the cell itself to the

17 grass that was there. They would be there for a while and then they

18 would remove them to this dumping area. That was the case with Suad

19 Bahonjic.

20 Q. Were there many bodies that you observed being taken out on a daily

21 basis?

22 A. I observed many bodies, but the night when the people in room 3 were

23 killed was the most.

24 Q. Did you see the bodies of the people that were killed in room 3?

25 A. Yes, a large number of those bodies were in front of the room No. 3

Page 4939

1 on a grassy patch.

2 Q. How were they killed?

3 A. We could not see that directly but, judging by the shooting the night

4 before, they were probably shot. What we were able to hear were

5 screams and appeals of these people. What has been, what has remained

6 current in my mind is a voice of a man who said something, "Oh, my

7 mother and my children, am I going to ever see you again?"

8 Q. Do you know where these people in room 3 came from?

9 A. Those people were brought from a place called the Brdo near Prijedor,

10 but that is a large number of villages there.

11 Q. That is often know as the Brdo region, is it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When were they brought to the Keraterm camp, these people, from the

14 Brdo region?

15 A. I do not know the exact date. I think it was after 20th July.

16 Q. The people brought, were they men, women and children or mostly men?

17 A. Mostly men.

18 Q. Just to clarify the Brdo region, that encompasses the villages of

19 Hambarine, Rakovcani, those little villages?

20 A. Yes, Hambarine, Zecovo, Carakovo Rizvanovici.

21 Q. When you say the next day you observed the bodies, approximately how

22 many bodies did you see?

23 A. It was a large number of bodies. Nobody could count, was able to

24 count them. Then the Serb soldiers, guards came and said, "Is there

25 anybody who is not afraid of the dead here?"

Page 4940

1 Q. What happened then?

2 A. A man from my dormitory reported and there were others from the other

3 dormitories. There were six of them altogether. Then a large truck

4 came which had a trailer with a canvas cover and they loaded them in.

5 Q. Were you able to see the loading of the bodies from where you were

6 located?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How long did it take for these bodies to be loaded on this large

9 truck?

10 A. Quite a long time. After that two fire vehicles with some hoses

11 arrived, and they tried to wash down this grass, it was very difficult

12 though.

13 Q. I think you said that the people in room 3 were fired upon. Were

14 they fired upon by any particular type of weapon that you know of?

15 A. What I could see the next morning in front of the room No. 3, first

16 there was a grassy patch and then there was a road and across from the

17 road, so the distance was about 30 metres, there was a table and there

18 was a large machine gun model 84, and there was a floodlight there

19 and also a regular chair.

20 Q. From what you had heard the night before and what you were able to

21 see, did it appear that this particular gun, the model 84, was used

22 for the purposes of the killing of people in room 3?

23 A. I think that was part of the weapons that these people were killed

24 with.

25 Q. From observations that you made after this event, did it appear that

Page 4941

1 the doors to room 3 had been opened or closed during the course of

2 this shooting?

3 A. I think that those doors were closed because they had huge holes

4 which was pointing that it was a large calibre ammunition used.

5 Q. Do you know whether all of the people in room 3 had been killed or

6 had some of them survived?

7 A. Some people survived, and I am talking now exclusively about the

8 first night in room 3. There was also the second night.

9 Q. What happened on the second night?

10 A. On the second night the same thing happened, except what we were able

11 to hear, that nobody was supposed to stay alive, that is what they

12 were saying. Somebody had the idea, they said that everybody had to

13 have their, be shot in the head, and I think we counted 43 shots.

14 Q. In total did you subsequently discover how many people,

15 approximately, were in room 3?

16 A. I think that in dormitory No. 3 there were altogether 350 to 400

17 people. The number of killed, according to what we found out from

18 people who were loading up the bodies and what we heard for the second

19 night, in our estimate there were about 250 people killed.

20 Q. During the time that you were in Keraterm camp did you see at any

21 stage high ranking Serb officials visit the camp?

22 A. I think I once saw Simo Drljaca.

23 Q. What position did Simo Drljaca have?

24 A. The inmates who were from Prijedor who knew him much better, what his

25 position was, were saying that he was the Commander of the Police

Page 4942

1 Station in Prijedor, that is the Chief of Police in Prijedor.

2 Q. Was it sometimes referred to as the SUP?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is the SUP only located in Prijedor or are there SUPs in other

5 locations?

6 A. For the Prijedor municipality SUP was mostly in Prijedor, and then

7 there were police stations in local communes, that means organised on

8 a local level.

9 Q. So, am I correct when I say that the structure was that you had the

10 SUP in Prijedor city itself, and then underneath the SUP were there

11 various police stations in each of the communes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. At this time, so far as you know, was Drljaca the Chief of the

14 Police, of the SUP?

15 A. Yes, at that time he was the Chief of the SUP.

16 Q. Apart from what you have already told us about the Keraterm camp,

17 what were conditions there like in terms of the food you were given,

18 the sanitary conditions and the general treatment of people?

19 A. The sanitary conditions were horrible. The toilet that we used was

20 already flooded completely, and the water that we were able to drink

21 was the one that was used for fire protection, the water. The food

22 was coming once, not even once. It was some kind of a soup, some

23 cabbage.

24 Q. How often were you given a meal while you were there?

25 A. In the beginning it was not regular and then it became once a day

Page 4943

1 starting around 2 o'clock and then going on until ----

2 Q. When the guards, particularly at night, the guards that visited at

3 night came, were they often drunk?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did a lot of the beatings that occurred occur when these people were

6 drunk?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I think you said you remained in Keraterm camp up until 1st August

9 1992, is that right?

10 A. Yes, the beginning of August.

11 Q. Beginning of August. Where did you go from Keraterm?

12 A. After Keraterm part of the men were transferred to Trnopolje and then

13 another part, and I think there were 107 or 117 who were called out

14 put into two buses and taken to Omarska, because they said before the

15 loading that they were going to Omarska and the others were going to

16 Trnopolje.

17 Q. Were you placed in a bus?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where did the bus go to that you were in?

20 A. That bus was going from that camp to a place that we called, it is a

21 bus stop, I just forgot now, it was towards Banja Luka and then it

22 went into the field road so-called that went from Prijedor towards

23 Trnopolje.

24 Q. Were you taken to the Trnopolje camp?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4944

1 Q. What time did you arrive at the Trnopolje camp, approximately?

2 A. I think it was about 3 or 4 o'clock. I know that it was close to the

3 evening.

4 Q. When you arrived at the Trnopolje camp where were you placed? Where

5 did they put you?

6 A. They put us on a field in front of the so-called cultural centre in

7 Trnopolje.

8 Q. When you first arrived were you permitted to join in with the other

9 prisoners at the camp?

10 A. No, between us and the rest of the inmates there was some kind of a

11 barbed wire fence and guards were patrolling it.

12 Q. When you arrived there were you given some food?

13 A. No, there was an attempt on the part of other inmates from Trnopolje

14 to give us food. Some managed to do that. Maybe for a moment the

15 guards allowed some, but the explanation was that we were the ones who

16 had been interrogated and we would be freed, and those over on the

17 other side still need to be interrogated and had to go back, we had to

18 go to Keraterm.

19 Q. The guards that were at the Trnopolje camp, do you know whether they

20 were part of any particular organisation such as the police, the

21 paramilitary or the JNA?

22 A. They wore military uniforms, whether they were paramilitary or

23 regular military. In any event, they wore military uniforms.

24 Q. Were these guards armed?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4945

1 Q. What sorts of arms did they carry?

2 A. Automatic rifles.

3 Q. Did they wear any head wear that you saw?

4 A. Some did, some did not.

5 Q. How was the Trnopolje camp organised from what you could see in

6 terms of the buildings and so forth in the camp?

7 A. There was a cultural centre where usually women and children were

8 placed because there were people arriving from Prijedor and then

9 elderly people. There was a larger building which was a school

10 building where the inmates were. A large number of people were

11 outside and they tried from plastic, from canvas canopies from

12 tractors or something to build something and that is where they lived.

13 Q. These people that were outside, they were building shelters in the

14 form of tents, makeshift tents, were they?

15 A. Perhaps it was not temporary. That is how people lived. They had no

16 other way, only to live there until the moment the camp was dissolved.

17 Q. Why were people living outside of the buildings? Why were they not

18 all living inside the buildings?

19 A. Because inside there was no room, everything was filled up.

20 Q. The people living in these makeshifts tents that they had, were they

21 families or were they all men or women or what?

22 A. People organised so that it was for easier supplies, for food, for

23 cooking, so that more people were there.

24 Q. When you say "more people", what I am asking you is were they

25 families in these tents or were they just men, just women or was it a

Page 4946

1 mixture?

2 A. Those were men, mostly men from the same family or acquaintances or

3 from the same village. They organised themselves according to that

4 principle.

5 Q. Were there women and children in the Trnopolje camp?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was there any particular part of the camp that they used to stay?

8 A. Yes, that part of women and children who were coming, they were

9 staying in the cultural centre.

10 Q. Were there guard posts or sentry posts around the camp that you could

11 observe?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where were they located?

14 A. One point was across the road that goes towards Kozarac in front of

15 the school. One was at the intersection of the field road coming from

16 Kozarac going to the railway station. The third point was on that

17 field road towards Prijedor and also the fourth. The fifth point was

18 on a house, on a balcony. You could see they were placed there. The

19 sixth point I could see was looking from the road Kozarac/Trnopolje

20 also on the right-hand side.

21 Q. Did the guards patrol up and down the perimeters of the camp that you

22 could see?

23 A. The guards did patrol along that road from Kozarac to Trnopolje.

24 They often went into the perimeter of the camp walking around there

25 too.

Page 4947

1 Q. Did the guards often come into the camp premises itself that you

2 could see?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you ever see the guards taking people out of the camp?

5 A. Yes, I saw a few times.

6 Q. Do you know where these people were being taken?

7 A. No, I think that once I saw a group of people brought apparently from

8 Prijedor and then they took them right away. They took them towards

9 the railway station in Kozarac.

10 Q. Approximately how far from the camp itself was the railway station?

11 A. From the camp itself maybe 300 to 400 metres in my estimate.

12 Q. Do you know whether the railway was operational at this stage when

13 you arrived at the camp?

14 A. I think that it was operational, but only for the needs of the Serb

15 Army or something, but by that railway the convoys were directed

16 towards the free territory.

17 Q. Apart from what you have told us already, what were the conditions in

18 the camp at Trnopolje like that you were able to observe when you

19 first arrived?

20 A. For us inmates from Keraterm we thought that it was much better.

21 After a few days we realised that that camp may not look as dangerous,

22 but maybe it is as dangerous as Keraterm. If you wanted to eat

23 something or to prepare some food you had to leave the camp, and many

24 people who did that were not coming back to the camp. Then we had

25 opportunities when other prisoners were found, were finding other

Page 4948

1 prisoners whose throats had been cut or who had been killed lying in

2 the fields.

3 MR. NIEMANN: Is that a convenient time your Honour? I am moving on to

4 something else.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes we will stand in recess until 2.30.

6 (1.00 p.m.)

7 (Luncheon Adjournment)

8 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann ----

10 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- would you continue with Mr. Arifagic?

12 Mr. Orie, I forgot to say welcome to you the other day, but

13 welcome.

14 MR. JUSUF ARIFAGIC, recalled.

15 Examined by MR. NIEMANN, continued.

16 Q. Mr. Arifagic, at my request last night did you prepare from your

17 memory a sketch drawing of the camp at Trnopolje?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you label the various features on this sketch that you drew?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. NIEMANN: Might the witness, please, be shown this sketch and there

22 are three copies for your Honours, and may it be marked for

23 identification No. 309?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have a copy, Mr. Kay?

25 MR. KAY: Yes, we do, your Honour.

Page 4949

1 MR. NIEMANN [To the witness]: Is that the sketch that you prepared last

2 night?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It is of the Trnopolje camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Mr. Arifagic, I am going to ask that this be placed on the overhead

7 projector. Because you have written the various things in your own

8 language, I am going to ask you to point to them and tell us what they

9 mean. You need to point to them with a pointer that is provided

10 there, but when you are pointing to a particular part of the plan, I

11 would ask you to keep the pointer still on that spot otherwise it is

12 hard for us to see it on the television if it moves about.

13 You need to point to it, not on the screen, but on the projector

14 itself, the plan itself, when we get it into focus. To start off with,

15 can you tell us the road that goes off to Kozarac, where have you

16 marked that?

17 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could you ask the witness to speak up, please? We

19 cannot hear him at all.

20 MR. NIEMANN: When you are talking, Mr. Arifagic, you will have to speak

21 into the microphone otherwise you cannot be heard for the purposes of

22 interpretation. So, it is a bit awkward but I would ask you to try to

23 speak into the microphone but at the same time tell us what you are

24 pointing to. So, firstly, the road to Kozarac?

25 A. [The witness indicated on the plan] This is the road to Kozarac.

Page 4950

1 Q. The road to Prijedor?

2 A. And here is the road to Prijedor.

3 Q. The road to Omarska?

4 A. This is the road to Omarska.

5 Q. The railway station?

6 A. Here at this place.

7 Q. That is marked on the plan with the letters "ZS", is it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. To the far left of the plan you have two parallel lines and written

10 in between it the word "kanal", what does that represent?

11 A. This is a canal which served to regulate the level of water in the

12 fish pond, in the fish farm. We called it "canal".

13 Q. Where is the fish farm drawn on your map?

14 A. Here, it is by the canal except that between the canal and the fish

15 farm there is an embankment so that the water would not overflow from

16 the fishing pond in the canal.

17 Q. Moving back across the bottom of your plan and going towards the

18 right across the bottom, you have written "mesnica inpro", what does

19 that mean?

20 A. From what I know, there was once a restaurant and after that, I do

21 not know how long before the war, a Prijedor company called "Inpro"

22 opened this butcher's here.

23 Q. You told us earlier in your evidence this morning that there were

24 sentry posts or guard posts as such around the camp. Can you indicate

25 where they are located?

Page 4951

1 A. Yes, this marked with the letter "P" and this is the first post at

2 the junction of the roads to Prijedor/Kozarac and Omarska, and next to

3 the railway station another one was on the road to Prijedor. The

4 third one was also on the road to Prijedor. From there, there was a

5 road to the camp that was a dirt road which went through a field to

6 the middle of the camp. The next one was here and it was on the

7 balcony of a house. I believe it was a machine gun nest or something

8 like that. One could not see it very clearly, but it was evidently a

9 sentry post. The next one was ----

10 Q. Could you go a little bit more slowly, please, because it has to be

11 interpreted? We are up to the one, you have just finished the guard

12 post on the house where you think the machine gun nest was. You were

13 moving over to the one on the far right of the screen.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Then coming down, is there another one further down towards the

16 bottom right-hand corner of the plan?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where is the next one after that?

19 A. The next one was here, across the street from the school.

20 Q. The school shown as "skola" immediately across from the last post

21 that you pointed to, that was one of the buildings in the camp?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Which buildings were contained in the camp itself where people were

24 accommodated, prisoners were accommodated?

25 A. By the school building within the camp, there was the building of the

Page 4952

1 so-called cultural centre which included, in addition to the hall for

2 various cultural events there was, there were the premises or, rather,

3 an office belonging to the Local Commune of Trnopolje.

4 Here, No. 1, marks the lower floor of a room where Mocca or

5 Mocca coffee bar was, and on the upper floor, I do not know what it is

6 there for exactly. Between the Local Commune office and the surgery

7 was a room where prisoners were beaten and tortured.

8 To the right here was the surgery or ambulanta. As you pass

9 through the corridor here at the door into the surgery, here was a

10 room which all I could see was a metal door. What was behind it, I do

11 not know. Here was the corridor behind the surgery, and here was a

12 store and behind it was the storage space.

13 Q. Yes, keep going. So what is that building there, that part of the

14 building there?

15 A. Behind this sales outlet and in this building, where there was the

16 cultural centre, and all these other facilities that I mentioned. In

17 front of this culture centre was a small latrine, an outhouse, which

18 served as a latrine. Then there was also another sales outlet, but it

19 traded in building materials and behind it was again storage space,

20 presumably, keeping stocks of building material. Below it was scales

21 which we often used to see what condition we were in. Below it in the

22 corner itself was the transformer substation.

23 Q. The Commander of the camp, where was his office?

24 A. I do not know where it was exactly, but the camp Commander,

25 Kuruzovic, could often be seen in front of this building which says

Page 4953

1 "Red Cross". Often times inmates could see that Major Kuruzovic also

2 spent sometime here in front of this building. There was this building

3 and its point was there, but where his post was supposed to be, I do

4 not know -- either of these two.

5 Q. Are there any other buildings in the area that you used to see guards

6 frequent while you were at the camp?

7 A. Here there was this road here above this building, the Red Cross or

8 Crveni Kriz, and it led into the interior of this area. I could see a

9 building there and I could often see soldiers go there and come back,

10 but I did not know what was there and what was being done there.

11 Q. Was there a fence around the camp?

12 A. In the beginning, when I arrived from the Keraterm camp, this fence

13 here had been put up, going from the corner of the cultural centre and

14 ended here above this shop which sold building materials. Another

15 fence, and I believe it was removed shortly, I believe the next day,

16 so that we could mingle with other inmates here in this area here

17 around the school, and they undertook the construction of this fence

18 here.

19 It was made of reinforced structures or, rather, construction

20 grids, the ones that are used to cast concrete, reinforced concrete

21 plates. So, they undertook this construction, but suddenly the orders

22 came to remove it and shortly after that the International Red Cross

23 arrived.

24 Q. You spoke about people living in makeshift tents with plastic covers

25 and so forth. Where were the people that were living in these

Page 4954

1 makeshift structures located in the camp?

2 A. These tents were here, predominantly around here, from the culture

3 centre and mostly up there.

4 Q. So if I say the area of open space that appears behind and between

5 the school and a cultural centre?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Over to the right and about two-thirds of the way up your plan you

8 have "WC". Were there toilets located there as well, were there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were those toilets permanent structures or were they makeshift

11 facilities?

12 A. No, they were built. There were holes dug out and above those holes

13 there was a simple pallet that was put there, and above it were two

14 concrete blocks or something like that. At any rate, they were there.

15 Q. Were the people of different sexes divided in the camp or were they

16 all in together in the various buildings?

17 A. Well, there were men predominantly in the camp, but here in the

18 culture centre in this hall, what women and children were there they

19 were mixed with elderly, with men.

20 Q. With elderly men. What about the school, who were housed in the

21 school?

22 A. In the school were mostly males, but at a certain point in time,

23 when a group of women arrived from Omarska on the upper floor, that

24 is, on the first floor of the school, there were a couple of women in

25 one of the rooms.

Page 4955

1 Q. In a number of places on your plan you have little squares drawn with

2 "K". Does the "K" represent "house" for "kutcha"?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In the bottom section towards the right-hand side you have two little

5 squares drawn together there under the word "Kozarac". Was there a

6 pump located there, was there?

7 A. Yes, right behind this sentry point was a water pump where we usually

8 went to get water.

9 Q. As you drew the plan, is there anything else that you would draw our

10 attention to?

11 A. I believe one could also mention that here was a coffee bar under

12 construction built by a man who worked for the police. His name is

13 Zdenko Olenjuk, but it was not open yet and here where I indicated the

14 Red Cross building, Crveni Kriz, I think it is important to mention

15 that at that time, that is, from early August when I arrived in the

16 Trnopolje camp.

17 Q. Thank you. I tender that plan, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

19 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 309 will be admitted.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: I have some difficulty before you leave the thing, the

22 large building with the arches that we have seen in a number of

23 photographs, I take it that that is the one with "don kulture" in the

24 back?

25 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

Page 4956

1 JUDGE STEPHEN: We were told that was the Red Cross and then the Red Cross

2 moved.

3 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.

4 JUDGE STEPHEN: The witness is talking about its moved position, I

5 suppose?

6 MR. NIEMANN: As I understand it, your Honour, yes.

7 JUDGE STEPHEN: Then the other difficulty I have is the ambulanta, the

8 three windows that we were told about, they really are windows in the

9 two rooms called "skladiste" and "trgovina", are they not? They are

10 windows on the left hand wall of those two rooms.

11 MR. NIEMANN: I think I would need to show the witness the photograph

12 first, your Honour. I think that might be best if I could do that.

13 JUDGE STEPHEN: Yes.

14 MR. NIEMANN: Because I will ask that.

15 JUDGE STEPHEN: He did describe those two rooms as "store rooms", I think.

16 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. I take it, Mr. Arifagic, that you have

17 not actually drawn this to scale?

18 A. No, I did not draw it to scale. It is quite possible that the

19 confusion arises here. In front was the store and behind it was a

20 rather small room which served as a storeroom, and behind it was the

21 surgery, the ambulanta, which comprised two rooms and then a corridor

22 here in front, and one corridor which led here to this exit.

23 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I will see if I can have the best photograph

24 located so I can take the witness back to it.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I ask just a few questions ----

Page 4957

1 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, please.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- about this particular plan, Exhibit 309,

3 understanding that you will show him the photograph and, perhaps,

4 clarify the placement of some of the buildings in terms of scale.

5 [To the witness]: Was there, sir, ever a fence around the camp

6 where it is indicated "road", put "za Kozarac", was there a fence on

7 that border ever?

8 A. Yes, here and here. Around this school there was a fence along the

9 road, but it had existed before, that is, while the times were still

10 normal.

11 Q. Did the fence remain up while you were at Trnopolje?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who manned the sentry post that you have indicated with a letter "P"?

14 Were they guards for the camp or were they soldiers, if you know?

15 A. They were soldiers. They were camp guards.

16 Q. Do you know whether or not those guards or soldiers checked persons

17 as they came into that road?

18 A. I am sorry, I did not understand the question. Which road do you

19 have in mind?

20 Q. The road to Kozarac or the road to Prijedor, you have three sentry

21 posts there. If persons were coming from Kozarac, they would have to

22 pass two sentry posts. Do you know whether or not persons were

23 required to give some sort of identification or otherwise indicate who

24 they were before they were allowed to come through that road past the

25 sentry post?

Page 4958

1 A. Here at this place people were controlled or, rather, women who from

2 the direction of Prijedor tried to visit prisoners, bring them some

3 food, now whether they directly checked their documents or what they

4 did they do, I do not know. Here at this sentry and this one here,

5 this one was of greatest interest to us because that is where we had

6 to report if we wanted to go out in search of food.

7 What happened to people who came from the direction of Kozarac,

8 at that time very few people moved around there, with the exception of

9 the police and army. So I do not know whether any controls were

10 carried out there and what kind of.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you.

12 JUDGE VOHRAH: Could you please clarify what that square represents with

13 the word "bunar" against it, please? Left bottom, near the railway

14 station, just above the first sentry post?

15 A. Yes, that is -- that was a place which we called a "well" ----

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. --- where you could draw water, but we used it very seldom because

18 the well was contaminated.

19 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

20 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It has been admitted already without objection.

22 Exhibit 309 is admitted.

23 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Arifagic, do you know the accused in these proceedings,

24 Dusko Tadic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4959

1 Q. For how long have you known him?

2 A. I think we have known each other since my birth. That means from the

3 time I started going to school and going out, I knew Dusan Tadic since

4 then.

5 Q. Was he at school the same time as you were at school?

6 A. He was older, but the period when I went to school we would meet at

7 school.

8 Q. I think that you had an interest in marshal arts as well, is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, in a period of time while Dusko Tadic headed the karate classes,

11 I was doing judo classes at the same school in Kozarac.

12 Q. You said you would see him when you were doing your judo and so forth

13 at the school?

14 A. Yes, I saw him, otherwise I met him often and we often sat together.

15 Q. You knew where his house was in Kozarac?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You visited his coffee bar from time to time?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. His coffee bar was called The Nipon, is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You also knew his wife?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And members of his family, his brothers, for example?

24 A. Yes, I knew his brothers, Ljubo and Mladen. I think that there was

25 another one, an older one, whom I never met.

Page 4960

1 Q. I think you said a moment ago that you used to go into his cafe bar

2 to drink from time to time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Before the war, if you can remember, what was the last time you went

5 in there, approximately how long before the commencement of the war in

6 May 1992 were you in his cafe bar?

7 A. I think it was sometime in early May, 7 to 15 days before the attack

8 -- I was not paying attention to that -- that I was at his cafe.

9 Q. When you were in his cafe bar did you speak to him?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were there other people in the bar at the same time?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you recall the nature of the conversation you had with him on

14 this last occasion before the war?

15 A. Yes, I entered the cafe then and I think that Dusko remembers it very

16 well too. I said, and he ordered a drink for me. There were some

17 other people there. I think they were from Omarska and we sat at one

18 table and a neighbour said, "Are we going to have some appetizers?"

19 and then he brought out bacon and he said, "I do not know if you eat

20 this", thinking maybe that I was a Muslim but I said, "No, there is no

21 problem" so we sat down and talked.

22 At one point a man walked by. We called him "Zule", a man who

23 was given to drinking, and Dusko said to us, and I will try to quote

24 him, "Look at him, fuck his mother. I often give him a drink and he

25 often comes into the cafe and he is calling us 'Chetniks'", or

Page 4961

1 something like that.

2 Q. Do you recall or remember the layout of how the cafe bar was set up?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was it a combination of tables and bar stalls inside the cafe bar?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was there a place where you could get food?

7 A. No, I think there was nothing for eating except if he was offering

8 some food. I think it was only for drinks and coffee, expresso as

9 such.

10 Q. When you were in the camp at Trnopolje, did you ever see Dule Tadic

11 when you were in the camp?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When was this?

14 A. This was when the camp Trnopolje was being dissolved, when I was

15 getting out. There was a small space where we used to get out towards

16 the buses that were parked on the road, to the right of me. Next to

17 the fence Dusko Tadic was leaning against the fence with his hands in

18 his pockets in a police uniform. He had a classic police uniform on

19 which had insignia militia of Yugoslavia, and he had a police overcoat

20 on over his left shoulder. That was the side farther away from me.

21 It was either an automatic rifle or a PM and we looked at each other.

22 I remember it very well.

23 I hurried to the bus and people from the Red Cross were waiting

24 for me there. They gave me food that I was to bring with me and I got

25 on to the bus and sat down.

Page 4962

1 Q. Do you remember the date this was?

2 A. It was 31st September or 1st October. I think it was 31st September.

3 Q. Were you evacuated on that date with a number of other people?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The people that were evacuated on that particular date, did they

6 belong to a group that had been given papers by the International Red

7 Cross?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were these people that had come from other camps such as Keraterm and

10 Omarska?

11 A. Yes, a smaller group of people came from the Omarska camp. I think

12 that even a small group from Manjaca came. In any event, they were

13 all people in very poor physical health, and a large number of the

14 evacuees were the people from Trnopolje and some who arrived from

15 Keraterm.

16 Q. What time of day was this that you saw him?

17 A. I think it was somewhere in -- sometime in the morning, I think 10.00

18 or 11 o'clock. I know that the loading went on for two or three hours

19 and only then the column started moving.

20 Q. How many people, approximately, were evacuated on this particular

21 occasion?

22 A. I do not know the exact number of people, but I know that it is 33 to

23 35 buses. That was the word.

24 Q. How far were you away from Dusko Tadic when you saw him there?

25 A. Maybe two or three metres. I cannot say exactly.

Page 4963

1 Q. Did your eyes meet? Did Dusko Tadic look at you and did you look at

2 him?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was he with anybody else at the time or was he on his own?

5 A. He was on his own.

6 Q. Would you, please, look around the courtroom for me and tell me if

7 you see the person that you know and recognise as Dule Tadic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you please point to the person, describe where he is and what

10 clothes he is wearing?

11 A. That is Dusko Tadic. He is in a blue suit with a tie. I think that

12 it is not necessary for us to get introductions. We know each other

13 well.

14 MR. NIEMANN: Might the record reflect, your Honour?

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

16 identified the accused.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I understand the best video to show is Exhibit

18 31 -- I am sorry, your Honour, I am just trying to locate it -- I

19 understand that the best photograph we have is on video and it is

20 Exhibit 296, it may possibly be 298 as well. Perhaps could they be set

21 up ready to be shown? Mr. Arifagic, I am going to ask you, please, to

22 look at the video and at any stage that you need to have it stopped,

23 say so, but in particular if you see parts of the video which are

24 represented on your plan and, in particular, those windows that His

25 Honour Judge Stephen was asking about, could you point them out to us

Page 4964

1 as we go through the video as it is played? Could the video be

2 played? Firstly, looking at this building that now appears, what is

3 this building?

4 A. This is the school building. This is the store and it was a general

5 merchandise type of store. This is the road to the railroad station

6 of Trnopolje. Again the school building. This is a house that is

7 adjacent to the school and the camp itself. The road to Kozarac. You

8 can see the electric substation in this frame which was down from the

9 building supplies store. This is the store, the building material

10 store, and behind it was a storage room or storage space. This is a

11 road from Trnopolje to Prijedor. This is the cultural centre.

12 In the lower part there was that coffee bar, Mocca. I do not

13 know what the upstairs were for. Behind these trees are the premises

14 of the Local Commune, and the ambulanta and then again the general

15 merchandise store. This is again the road to Prijedor and that road,

16 there were those checkpoints.

17 Q. Is this the field where the people had the makeshift tents?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were the toilets that you spoke of over there behind the school?

20 A. Here in the frame you can see the back of the school with a boiler

21 room and you could not see the toilets from here.

22 Q. Is this the picture theatre we are now looking at?

23 A. Yes, that is the cinema theatre and this is a small structure where

24 one of the toilets was.

25 Q. Thank you. Perhaps that is sufficient now. Just in order to see

Page 4965

1 those windows, I understand that the better video to look at might be

2 298. I would ask you to put it on fast forward and play it through

3 because we do not want to have to go through it all again. But, Mr.

4 Arifagic, when we get to the point which shows the windows to the

5 ambulanta, could we stop there? I know you have not seen this video

6 before, so if you miss it and we have to come back, there is no

7 difficulty with that. Would you look at it and if it could be played

8 fast forward? If you can see those windows, ask the video to stop.

9 Could it be played, Exhibit 298, on fast forward? I understand it is

10 fairly short.

11 A. This is still the entrance into the cafe to the right would be the

12 windows of the ambulanta.

13 Q. Could it be moved on, please?

14 A. This is where you can see the windows of the ambulanta and the

15 entrance door.

16 Q. Can you roll it back, please? Just go forward a little bit further

17 and stop when you see the next building. Stop there, please. [To the

18 witness]: Which ones are the windows to the ambulanta?

19 A. To the right, the first I was -- the window to the room where I was

20 going in and I think that the next window, I think it was also

21 ambulanta, but I was not going in there. Then on the left-hand side,

22 left to the door, I think it was the room where they tortured people.

23 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. I have no further questions your

24 Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, cross-examination?

Page 4966

1 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

2 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

3 Q. I have a few general questions, Mr. Arifagic. First of all, you told

4 us about helicopters being seen in the Kozarac region. How many

5 helicopters did you actually see?

6 A. I think I saw it on three or four occasions.

7 Q. Whereabouts did they land?

8 A. Those helicopters flew from the direction of Prijedor and Mount

9 Kozara, towards Balte and Banja Luka, but when they were landing, when

10 you could see their lights, it was in the area of the village of

11 Balte.

12 Q. Were you ever on duty at a checkpoint near Balte? I will repeat the

13 question, were you ever on duty at a checkpoint at Balte?

14 A. I was not at the checkpoint Balte. As I pointed out, I was in the

15 village of Javori.

16 Q. Before the conflict started, how many people were on duty at your

17 checkpoint?

18 A. Mostly, there were three or four people and those were not real

19 checkpoints. Those were patrols through the village observing,

20 seeing, whether somebody was going to do something harmful in the

21 village.

22 Q. Were these patrols armed?

23 A. Those patrols were armed, as I pointed out, with hunting weapons and

24 people who had their own personal pistols.

25 Q. You say hunting weapons. Do hunting weapons have telescopic sight?

Page 4967

1 A. No.

2 Q. You know what I am talking about, a sight on the rifle so that you

3 can identify what you are going to shoot at?

4 A. I know what you are talking about, but nobody had such arms. We had

5 regular hunting rifles.

6 Q. When the attack took place on Kozarac, was there any armed resistance

7 from the people who were under the command of Captain Cirkin?

8 A. First of all, I was not there with Captain Cirkin, so what really

9 happened, whether there was any resistance -- according to me, there

10 was none because there were not on the first lines.

11 Q. Were there any orders to you from Captain Cirkin that if tanks came

12 close or in the range of a bazooka they should be destroyed?

13 A. No, again I emphasise, at the point of Javori there was no attack of

14 any kind.

15 Q. Did you not join up with Captain Cirkin and Medunjanin who was the

16 SDA leader from Kozarac?

17 A. You think of Medunjanin, but he was not a leader of SDS.

18 Q. I did not say SDS -- SDA of Kozarac.

19 A. I do not know where the mistake is. I know what I heard. I never met

20 with Medunjanin. I only met once with, but the meeting ended up with

21 an agreement not to provoke, not to -- to try to resolve everything

22 with peaceful means.

23 Q. When you were making your plans, you told us, to cross to Croatia,

24 how many people were there as part of that discussion?

25 A. I think that it was a question of smaller groups of people. Where we

Page 4968

1 were, there were about 100 people. Whether there were other

2 discussions or addresses later, but where I was there were about 100

3 people.

4 Q. Not 750?

5 A. At that location where I was, I do not know about a wider region in

6 that forest, but with Captain Cirkin.

7 Q. Were you part of a group that attacked Kozarac as part of a

8 resistance from Brdjani?

9 A. Yes, we started from Brdjani but all this ended up near Kozarac, so

10 that the real serious attack never took place.

11 Q. But was there some form of resistance that you were involved in, in

12 those days after the attack on Kozarac?

13 A. All my resistance came to trying to survive and trying to protect my

14 own family.

15 Q. Yes, but were you involved with others in armed fighting, armed

16 resistance to those people who were attacking you?

17 A. I think there was no armed fighting. It was all about running away,

18 trying to protect the family. It was all very chaotic and people were

19 just going about.

20 MR. KAY: Very well. That is all I ask.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

22 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing on re-examination, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Arifagic, what is your religion?

24 A. I am a Muslim.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have no further questions. Mr. Kay?

Page 4969

1 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to the witness being permanently

3 excused?

4 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Sir, you are permanently excused. You are

6 free to leave. Thank you very much for coming.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you as well.

8 (The witness withdrew)

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the next witness is Mesud Arifagic.

11 MR. MESUD ARIFAGIC, called.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that has been

13 given to you?

14 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

15 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

16 (The witness was sworn)

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

18 Examined by MR. TIEGER

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may be proceed.

20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, what is your name?

22 A. Mesud Arifagic.

23 Q. Mr. Arifagic, how old are you?

24 A. I was born on 21st April 54.

25 Q. Where were you born?

Page 4970

1 A. In Kozarac.

2 Q. Is that where you were raised?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In what part of Kozarac did you grow up?

5 A. In Stari Grad, a street, Stari Grad street, No. 48.

6 Q. Is Stari Grad or the old section of Kozarac located just a few

7 hundred metres from the main street, Marsala Tita?

8 A. I had a house less than 1,000 metres from the high street in Stari

9 Grad.

10 Q. Where did you go to school?

11 A. In Kozarac.

12 Q. Did you serve in the JNA?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In what years?

15 A. '73 and '74.

16 Q. Sir, what were your duties in the JNA?

17 A. I served on Tito's guard in the battalion of honour and then I

18 attended a course for sergeants. I returned from the army and was

19 promoted to sergeant.

20 Q. Where did you serve as a member of Tito's honour guard?

21 A. In Belgrade, at Bijeli Dvor. That is also Serbia.

22 Q. After your service in the JNA, did you return to Kozarac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that where you lived until the outbreak of the conflict in 1992?

25 A. Until the war.

Page 4971

1 Q. What was your occupation, sir?

2 A. I had my own, self-employed, I had a kiln making lime which was used

3 in the construction of residential buildings. I dealt in wholesale

4 and retail and, additionally, I also farmed.

5 Q. In 1976 did you become a member of the reserve police?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I would like to ask you a few questions about how that came about.

8 First of all, before 1976 were there reserve police units in Kozarac?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did reserve police units exist in larger municipalities in Bosnia?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In 1976 was the reserve police system extended to the Local Commune

13 level?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How were people selected to become members of the reserve police

16 after the extension of this system to the local communes?

17 A. That is the municipality of Prijedor and it is SUP requests the

18 formation of units in local communes, that is, the reserve police.

19 Then from those local communes where this is -- which are requested

20 send their nominations to Prijedor as to who could that be, that is,

21 they elect themselves, as all the command, the authorities were in

22 Prijedor.

23 Q. So the SUP would ask the Local Commune to select nominees?

24 A. There was needed at the time, that is how it was done.

25 Q. By the way, let me ask you, is the sound coming through too loud? Do

Page 4972

1 you need assistance with that?

2 A. That is all right.

3 Q. Who would make the nominations at the Local Commune level? Would that

4 be the Secretary of the Local Commune?

5 A. Nominations came from the Secretary of the Local Commune, the

6 Assembly of the Local Commune, co-operation with police which acted in

7 those local communes.

8 Q. The nominees or the names of those nominees would be submitted to the

9 SUP and the SUP would make the final determination of who became a

10 reserve policeman?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were the nominations and the ultimate selections carefully screened?

13 Were people looked at carefully before they became reserve policemen?

14 A. At first, there was rigorous control of the origins of that man and

15 all the rest, from those places where they were looking for them.

16 Q. Would that include information based on one's general reputation,

17 information within one's police dossier and so on?

18 A. That was the crucial thing.

19 Q. After your nomination and selection as a reserve policeman, did you

20 attend some training or schooling?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was that and where was it?

23 A. That was training for which I went to Prijedor on Saturdays and

24 Sundays, sometimes several days. I think it took about six months,

25 and many, many went there for supplementary training.

Page 4973

1 Q. Between 1976 and 1991, did your involvement as a reserve policeman

2 occasion periodic duties as needed? In other words, did you perform

3 services for the police occasionally as a reserve policeman between

4 those years?

5 A. Yes, on several occasions in '84 during the Olympic games in

6 Sarajevo, many active duty policemen then went to Sarajevo to

7 provide for the security and then we filled up for them, for the

8 active duty policemen in Kozarac. After that, on many occasions and

9 in '91, from September, I worked as an active duty until the day of

10 war.

11 Q. So, in 1984, for example, you filled in on active duty when most of

12 the active policemen went to assist in Sarajevo, is that correct?

13 A. That was a proposal which came from the police station in Prijedor,

14 that we should fill up the vacant jobs in Kozarac because their active

15 duty policemen were going to Sarajevo. This was a proposal that came

16 from Prijedor to the Commander in Kozarac.

17 Q. When you did that, were you paid for that period of time as if you

18 were an active duty policeman?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On other occasions between 1976 and 1991, did you help out the

21 regular police by performing duties such as taking crime reports or

22 responding to citizen complaints?

23 A. Yes, several duties from being on duty at the station, that is, in

24 Kozarac, because there is a difference when one says the station in

25 Prijedor and there is a station in Kozarac. So that I emphasise, I

Page 4974

1 stress, the station in Kozarac. From, therefore, being on duty in the

2 station in Kozarac, patrols, public law and order and so on and so

3 forth.

4 Q. Actually, now that you raise the difference between the station in

5 Kozarac and the station in Prijedor, let me ask you just a couple of

6 additional questions. Who was the Commander of your local police

7 station in Kozarac when you became an active duty policeman in 1991?

8 A. Then it was Osme Didovic.

9 Q. Were there other local police stations in other parts of the

10 municipality like the one in Kozarac?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was there a Commander of the police who was located in Prijedor who

13 was Osme Didovic's boss?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was that person's name?

16 A. Fikret Kadiric.

17 Q. Was he the boss, not only of Osme Didovic, but also of the other

18 local police stations around the municipality?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In addition, in Prijedor were there also commanders of different

21 departments such as traffic or investigation or patrols?

22 A. At the Prijedor station, there were several commanders, several

23 chiefs, and that is one could call them units or sections. For

24 instance, the traffic unit had its chief, the criminal department had

25 its own, and that is how it remained, but there was one Commander for

Page 4975

1 all. There were only superior to this man, that is the centre, the

2 hub was in Prijedor, just as the police Commander from Kozarac, all

3 that is sent to Prijedor. You get your orders from Prijedor and there

4 is nothing that you do on your own.

5 Q. Finally, was the Secretariat of Internal Affairs for the SUP the

6 overall headquarters for this entire organisation?

7 A. The municipality of Prijedor, what belonged to the municipality of

8 Prijedor.

9 Q. Was the head of the SUP at the time you became an active policeman

10 Hasan Tulundzic?

11 A. It was Hasan Tulundzic, Fikret Kadiric.

12 Q. Do you know who took over as police Commander after the takeover of

13 Prijedor, who took over the position of Fikret Kadiric?

14 A. Fikret Kadiric was replaced by Dule Jankovic.

15 Q. Was the position of head of the SUP taken by Simo Drljaca and Hasan

16 Tulundzic replaced after the takeover?

17 A. Yes. Simo Drljaca succeeded Tulundzic.

18 Q. Mr. Arifagic, you indicated to us you were born and raised in

19 Kozarac. Do you know Dule Tadic?

20 A. More than well.

21 Q. How long have you known him?

22 A. For as long as I have known myself.

23 Q. Do you know whether or not the two of you are about the same age?

24 A. I would not say we were peers. He is slightly younger.

25 Q. About how much younger?

Page 4976

1 A. Well, could be two or three years now.

2 Q. Did the two of you know each other as children?

3 A. Not when we were small, very small children, but later on, yes.

4 Q. OK, as you were growing up?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you know his parents?

7 A. Yes, especially the father, Ostoja, because many years we were in the

8 Local Commune in Kozarac at meetings.

9 Q. Did you know other members of Dule Tadic's family? Did you know his

10 brothers?

11 A. I did.

12 Q. Having known each other in Kozarac during the time you were growing

13 up, when you were both adults would you greet each other and stop and

14 talk when you happened upon each other in the street?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was that a common occurrence, to meet Dule Tadic in Kozarac?

17 A. In passing, yes. When I went home to Stari Grad I had to take that

18 way by their house. There were occasions, there were cases in a pub

19 being there together and many other encounters and in the police in

20 Kozarac.

21 Q. Did you have any friends or acquaintances in common?

22 A. One might say that, that we also had some friends in common. For

23 instance, Vaso Crnogorac, he was my friend once, but he was a much

24 closer friend of Dule Tadic's, or policeman, Emir Karabasic, and so

25 many, many others.

Page 4977

1 Q. You mentioned Vaso Crnogorac, was "Crnogorac" his real last name?

2 A. No, no, his family name -- Vaso did not have a surname. We all knew

3 that Vaso, that is how he was introduced as being born in Montenegro,

4 and that was what he was called in Kozarac and what we all called him,

5 Vaso Crnogorac, Vaso Montenegrin, that is. He worked in the shoe

6 factory called Bosna as a secretary, not as a secretary -- his

7 surname, I would not care to invent it. I would not know the surname,

8 what was his family name.

9 Q. Do you know anybody by the name of Vaso Radonjic?

10 A. Ratkonjic, Vaso, yes.

11 Q. Did Dule Tadic have any acquaintances or friends at the police

12 station other than Emir Karabasic? Did you sometimes see him at the

13 police station?

14 A. The real name is Dusko Tadic, but we all called him "Dule", a few --

15 nobody said "Dusko", that was too much. Everybody called him "Dule",

16 but it could be "Dule" and "Dusko" and "Dusko" is the real name and

17 "Dule" is for short or a pet name, you know, "Dule".

18 Dule had a friend, Emir Karabasic, in Kozarac, a policeman in

19 the police station in Kozarac, a great, and I think that they could

20 not be greater friends than the two of them. Why, for a while Goran

21 Babic and before, if the Court allows me to say so, before Commander

22 Osme Didovic there was Milutin Vujic, the Commander, he was, and Milos

23 Preradovic worked, who was transferred to Prijedor, to the military

24 police, on the eve of the outbreak of the war, and many, many were

25 friends with Dule Tadic.

Page 4978

1 Q. You have indicated or you mentioned Dule Tadic's good relationship

2 with Emir Karabasic. Did that relationship continue or end in the

3 period of time immediately before the war?

4 A. Dule Tadic and Emir Karabasic, I said -- I repeat -- were great and

5 even greater friends, but one could sense perhaps one year before the

6 war, perhaps less, they had little contact.

7 Q. Who was Dule Tadic associating with primarily in the year or so

8 before the war?

9 A. Dule Tadic, before the war, socialised with Goran Babic, Milos

10 Radulovic, that is the teacher from Kozarac who worked in the primary

11 school in Kozarac, Rade Kondic, Dusko Kesic, Goran Borovnica, who on

12 one occasion had some, certain problems in Kozarac and so .....

13 Q. During the period of time you were an active policeman, was a report

14 made to the police of an attempt to burn the Serbian Orthodox church?

15 A. The time, the date, it is difficult to say, but there were reports by

16 citizens, and it was entered in the book of records in the police

17 station in Kozarac, the report that Dule Tadic and perhaps somebody

18 else, I do not know that, reported that the church would be destroyed.

19 Q. I am sorry, the interpretation we have indicates that Dule Tadic

20 reported that the church would be destroyed. First of all, did the

21 record indicate that someone attempted to destroy the church?

22 A. No, not like that. I do not know how it came that way, but it was,

23 as I have said, there was a report by citizens, you see, because the

24 book of complaints, there you entered there all the incidents from the

25 morning until the next morning, and it is reported, whether or

Page 4979

1 anonymously, sometimes publicly, whatever, that Dule Tadic wanted to

2 burn or do something else to the church.

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, this might be a good time. I am going to move

4 on to something else.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes, please.

6 (4.00 p.m.)

7 (Short Adjournment)

8 (4.20 p.m.)

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may continue.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Arifagic, I would like to direct

11 your attention now to the time of the takeover by Serbian authorities

12 of the Prijedor opstina. After the takeover, what happened with

13 Muslim policemen who had been working in Serb villages? Your Honour,

14 it appears there is no one in the booth.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have the French interpreters here! We will just

16 proceed in French! That shows you who is important here! OK. Now we

17 may proceed.

18 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Arifagic, just by way of explanation, what happened just

19 now is that we temporarily did not have the capacity to interpret.

20 So, I would like now to direct your attention to the time after the

21 Serbian takeover of power in opstina Prijedor. I would first like to

22 ask you what happened to the Muslim policemen of Kozarac who had been

23 working in Serb villages?

24 A. At the takeover by the Serb authorities in Prijedor, all policemen of

25 the Muslim nationality came to Kozarac and continued their work there.

Page 4980

1 Q. What did the policemen of Serbian nationality who had been working in

2 Kozarac do?

3 A. The policemen of the Serbian nationality, some of them who were from

4 Prijedor were leaving, going to Prijedor, and continuing to work

5 there, and some, until 22nd May of '92 two policemen who remained in

6 Kozarac and worked there.

7 Q. Do you remember any of the Serbian policemen who remained in Kozarac

8 until shortly before the attack on Kozarac?

9 A. In Kozarac, Babic Goran stayed, Babic Miroslav and the rest, as I

10 said before, left after the takeover of Prijedor.

11 Q. Was there a Serbian policeman by the name of Vinko Kusota?

12 A. Vinko Kusota and Marinko, that means the policemen who were from

13 Balte, two brothers-in-law of Milenko Zigic, worked until May 1st and

14 after that did not come to Kozarac, to the police station, any more.

15 Q. After the takeover, were there demands or ultimatums by Serbian

16 authorities in Prijedor to the Kozarac police?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What was the demand or ultimatum by the Serbian authorities?

19 A. There was to sign a document of loyalty to the Serbs and then to

20 continue to work under their command.

21 Q. Were the Muslim police required under that demand or ultimatum to

22 change their uniforms in any way?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In what way was that?

25 A. It was to put the insignia of the Serb Republic.

Page 4981

1 Q. Did the police hold a meeting and decide how they would respond to

2 the ultimatum?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was decided?

5 A. No.

6 Q. After the takeover of power, did you hear broadcasts on the police

7 radio coming from Serb policemen or from Serbs on the other end of a

8 police radio?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What sorts of things were being said by the Serbs on the police

11 radios in the period of time between the takeover and the attack on

12 Kozarac?

13 A. Before the attack one could hear a lot of provocations, calling out

14 of names. They often called on Osme Didovic. They were destroying

15 rockets that were pointing upwards which referred to the Muslim

16 mosques, since every mosque has a minaret which looks like a rocket

17 pointing upwards, and many, many other things.

18 Q. So there was constant talk of destroying the minarets of mosques?

19 A. More than many times, to destroy everything that belongs to balijas.

20 Q. Was there talk on these police radios about the destruction or

21 annihilation of Muslims?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How was that said, what kind of language was used?

24 A. With a regular language, as we speak.

25 Q. How did they refer to Muslims and what did they talk about doing to

Page 4982

1 them?

2 A. They were saying, "Balijas need to be destroyed", talked about the

3 mosques and also the Commander Osme, that he should have his throat

4 cut and many such things.

5 Q. During the period of time between the takeover and the attack on

6 Kozarac, did you continue to perform police duties?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you patrol various areas, including Rajkovici, Kamicani, Kozarusa

9 and so forth?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. During that period of time, did you observe Serbian troops and

12 equipment being transported to Benkovac?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Benkovac would be up the mountain, as one proceeds toward the

15 mountain on Marsala Tita?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you see any of these convoys?

18 A. Not only see them but I escorted them.

19 Q. When was the last time you saw or escorted a convoy of Serbian troops

20 or equipment to Benkovac?

21 A. The last time was 22nd May, but there were times before, but on May

22 22nd that was the largest column.

23 Q. How many trucks or vehicles were involved in that column?

24 A. In that column there were over 20 vehicles that I personally

25 escorted.

Page 4983

1 Q. Was there artillery or cannon ----

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. --- as part of that convoy. OK. What kind did you see?

4 A. Behind those trucks they had large calibre guns, those were 150

5 millimetre -- that is how they were called from the former JNA -- and

6 many others smaller, but those were the biggest ones, 150 millimetres

7 for those who know. The calibre, they can also know what size cannons

8 they were. That, more or less, every truck had one of those, and many

9 others.

10 Q. Did the trucks have registration or licence indicating who they

11 belonged to?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did they indicate?

14 A. Those were trucks of the Yugoslav People's Army, and on them it was

15 written "Wolves from Vukovar. God is Serb. Serbs are gods", and one

16 ugly thing remained because on the third or fourth truck, I do not

17 remember, in the front there was a big head of a cow which was cut off

18 and placed on the grill up front and that is how they were going up

19 towards Benkovac.

20 Q. Did you also see troops accompanying these vehicles?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How were they dressed?

23 A. They were in regular military clothes, some of them in

24 multi-coloured.

25 Q. Were they armed?

Page 4984

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you recall what kinds of arms the troops had?

3 A. The military had automatic weapons with them.

4 Q. From what direction did this convoy arrive?

5 A. This last column that went towards Mrakovica was a column coming from

6 Prijedor.

7 Q. Previous columns, had they also come from Prijedor or from another

8 direction?

9 A. They were from the direction of Prijedor and from Banja Luka.

10 Q. On May 24th, the day of the attack on Kozarac, were you at Rajkovici?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where in Rajkovici were you?

13 A. In Rajkovici, not Rajkovici.

14 Q. Were you at a particular location?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where was that?

17 A. That was in the village of Rajkovici which is on the road towards

18 Mrakovica from Kozarac. On the left at Risvo Hrmanovic(?) built a

19 hotel there and that is where we were.

20 Q. Were many of your police colleagues there as well as police chief

21 Osme Didovic and Becir Medunjanin, the Secretary of the National

22 Defence in Kozarac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did Becir Medunjanin speak on a radio to any Serb official?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4985

1 Q. Do you recall who he spoke to?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who was that?

4 A. Becir Medunjanin talked with Radmilo Zeljaja over the line from the

5 car in Rajkovici.

6 Q. What was Becir Medunjanin trying to tell Radmilo Zeljaja?

7 A. He tried to say what to do. He basically requested not to start,

8 because Becir knew what was going to happen and he was all but crying

9 over the line, but Radmilo Zeljaja said, "Becir, it is too late now".

10 Q. About what time of the day was that?

11 A. That was around 11.30 on Sunday.

12 Q. About what time did the shelling begin?

13 A. Sunday, the same day, 1.30, the first shells started falling.

14 Q. After the shells began to fall, did you and your colleague seek

15 shelter in the cellar?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Then that night did you go to a nearby village and spend the night?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The next morning did you come back to the same shelter for a period

20 of time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then did you go to your home in Kozarac to find your family and take

23 them to the forest?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. From the forest that afternoon did you again return to your home in

Page 4986

1 Kozarac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you were in Kozarac that afternoon did you have binoculars?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you able to see what was happening in the area of Kozarusa?

6 A. I could see it perfectly.

7 Q. What was happening in that area?

8 A. From Kozarusa, that means from Prijedor, all houses were burning, the

9 first tank that you could see in Susici near Limenka. That was the

10 name for the bus stop. It just remained that name.

11 Q. Did you see not only tanks but Serbian troops moving through the

12 area?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That same afternoon, Monday afternoon, were you in the centre part of

15 Kozarac and did you speak with police colleagues?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did they tell you that a plan had been reached or an agreement had

18 been reached to surrender?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was the understanding of what was to happen to the people who

21 surrendered under that agreement?

22 A. The agreement was, apparently, to go to Prijedor, to the sports

23 ground, for about three days. That was the information given us.

24 Q. After three days what was supposed to happen?

25 A. Who knew?

Page 4987

1 Q. Did you decide not to surrender, that you did not want to give

2 yourself up into Serb hands at that time?

3 A. In that event it was difficult to find a solution, what one should

4 do. The wife and children were at home and I was down there. Kozarac

5 is on fire. The shells are falling. I decided and Hamdija, we

6 started to go back to my place.

7 Q. Hamdija is your brother?

8 A. My cousin.

9 Q. As a police officer, had you been issued a weapon?

10 A. At that time we turned in our weapons in front of the police station

11 in Kozarac, the ones that we had taken from there.

12 Q. Then you went to back your home in Stari Grad with Hamdija?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was that the last you would see of your police colleagues until you

15 later arrived in Omarska where you would again see some of those who

16 survived?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The next day, the third day of the attack, did you change your mind

19 about surrendering?

20 A. There was no other reason. It was burning from all sides. That was

21 Tuesday in the evening. We had nothing, no other option, but to start

22 going towards the Serb Army.

23 Q. Did you and your family go into Kozarac to surrender in the early

24 evening on Tuesday?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4988

1 Q. Were there soldiers and military equipment in Kozarac?

2 A. There could have been more than what I saw.

3 Q. Were there tanks?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As you proceeded down Marsala Tita, at some point were the men in the

6 column that you were with ordered to walk in a different direction

7 from the women?

8 A. When we arrived to that column at the bottom of the Marsala Tita

9 Street, which is the main street to the sports ground, that is where

10 men were separated to the left and women and children to the right,

11 and right away it was there that it started, the beatings and the

12 abuse.

13 Q. So the men were supposed to walk in the direction of Banja Luka and

14 the women in the direction of Prijedor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How far did the men begin to proceed down the main road toward Banja

17 Luka before they were stopped?

18 A. We did not go far. As people were arriving they were lying down on

19 the ground, hands like this, and then as we were lining up, as we were

20 arriving.

21 Q. So you were told, you and others, to lie face down with your hands

22 behind your head on the ground?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What happened when you did?

25 A. Then right away the beatings started there. It was not allowed for

Page 4989

1 me to lie down in a normal way. As people were arriving, they were

2 being beaten as they were lying down.

3 Q. About what time of the day was this?

4 A. When we arrived to the asphalt it was dusk.

5 Q. How long did you and the others stay there?

6 A. We, men, were lying down there until 1.30, after midnight.

7 Q. At about 1.30 did buses arrive?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where did the buses take you?

10 A. They put us in the buses there, but that was abnormal. They were

11 pushing us, they were beating us and they started moving towards

12 Prijedor.

13 Q. Where did they stop?

14 A. We stopped in Keraterm.

15 Q. Did you ever get off the buses in Keraterm?

16 A. When we arrived in Keraterm, the buses turned around and parked and

17 we remained there until the next day in the evening, that was

18 Wednesday, until 9.30 Wednesday night, in the buses.

19 Q. Were you ever permitted to get off the buses?

20 A. You were not allowed to look out from the buses, let alone get off.

21 Q. After you had been there until about 9.30 in the evening, where did

22 the buses take you then?

23 A. At that time we did not know where we were going, but we started at

24 9.30. It was night. You could see a little bit through the window

25 into the night, they do not see if you look. But when we were leaving

Page 4990

1 Keraterm, we were not going either to Banja Luka, Bosanski Novi, we

2 were going in the direction of Tomasica, and arrived in Omarska and we

3 only found that out the next day.

4 Q. About what time did you arrive in Omarska? How long had that trip

5 taken?

6 A. According to me, that trip was supposed to take 40 minutes, but we

7 went from 9.30. Some buses arrived at 2.30, I think, and later. I

8 think it was 2.30 when we arrived in Omarska, we could have arrived.

9 Q. When your bus and the other buses arrived were guards waiting?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. As prisoners got off the buses, were the guards waiting in a

12 particular position?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you describe that, please, and tell us what happened as prisoners

15 left the buses?

16 A. When we were stepping off the bus, they put a cordon of Serbian

17 soldiers and we passed between them.

18 Q. As you passed between them, what happened?

19 A. The hands were over the head. If you could walk faster you got less,

20 those who walked slower got more.

21 Q. When you refer to "less" or "more", are you referring to blows and

22 kicks?

23 A. Beatings, yes, blows, yes.

24 Q. Where were you held when you first arrived in Omarska?

25 A. When I arrived in Omarska, I went upstairs, up the stairs, then to

Page 4991

1 the right. That is No. 15.

2 Q. You went up the stairs in which building? May I ask you this, there

3 was one building in which the kitchen was housed, is that right?

4 A. I was not there where the kitchen was.

5 Q. So you were in the other larger building, sometimes referred to as

6 the hangar?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you entered the hangar building, did you take the first stairway

9 to the left?

10 A. It was by the staircase and to the right. That is where I was in

11 that room until the interrogation, No. 15.

12 Q. So when you got to the top of the staircase you went right and that

13 is where No. 15 was?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was that a room that was partially separated by an area on one side

16 where there were showers and an area on the other side where there was

17 a wash room?

18 A. As you enter that room, to the left are showers and to the right a

19 wash basin or something, and it was connected. That was in the

20 middle.

21 Q. You said you remained there until you were interrogated. How long

22 were you in room 15?

23 A. Four or five days.

24 Q. Did you receive any food during that time from the camp guards or

25 officials?

Page 4992

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were there some prisoners who managed to purchase biscuits or small

3 amounts of food?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember what the price was for biscuits during that time?

6 A. More than excellent.

7 Q. How much did it cost to buy a pack of biscuits or cigarettes?

8 A. 100 marks, two biscuits and a box of cigarettes, or the other way

9 round, two boxes of cigarettes and one biscuit.

10 Q. After four or five days or so you indicated you were interrogated.

11 Before you entered the interrogation room, were you required to say

12 anything in particular?

13 A. Would you repeat it, please?

14 Q. Certainly. Were you required to say anything before you were

15 permitted actually to enter the interrogation, the room where the

16 interrogation was conducted?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What was that?

19 A. When I was entering the interrogation room the guard who escorted me

20 came up to the room. I knocked and I said, "Good day". I had to

21 return because I had not said it properly. I did not greet properly.

22 Q. Were you instructed with what the proper greeting was?

23 A. Yes, when the guard in the corridor told me what I was expected to

24 say.

25 Q. Did you say it and can you tell us what that was?

Page 4993

1 A. You had to say it. It is not whether I could say it. I had to say,

2 "God help you heroes", and not "hello" or "good day".

3 Q. During the course of your interrogation were you struck and kicked?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you kicked in a way which left a long-lasting injury to your

6 leg?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What kind of injury did you have?

9 A. It is an injury I have on my left leg. I had thrombosis of the left

10 leg when I arrived from Omarska to Trnopolje. I was given something

11 to put on it and I went for treatment. I still suffer the effects and

12 many, many others.

13 Q. After the interrogation what part of the camp were you held in?

14 A. We called it "hangar". I do not think that area has a number, a

15 garage, a hangar.

16 Q. Was it also upstairs in the hangar building?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. To get to this room did you use the same staircase you used to get to

19 room 15, or did you use another staircase?

20 A. I did not use the same staircase. I had to use another one.

21 Q. To get to this room that you were placed in after the interrogation,

22 did you go through the entrance and pass that first stairway and then

23 turn right walking by the toilet until you got to a room in which the

24 staircase was?

25 A. Yes, that is where I went. It is through the hangar and that is what

Page 4994

1 we called it, where the dump trucks were.

2 Q. OK. To get into the room where the staircase was, did you go through

3 a glass door?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were there prisoners in that room before you got to the staircase?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were there lockers on both sides of that small room?

8 A. That is what I remember well, where people were lying down, yes, a

9 small locker, working type.

10 Q. Were there also prisoners on top of the lockers?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were there prisoners on the staircase?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you got to the top of the staircase did you then go right to get

15 to the area where you were held after the interrogation?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You indicated that that particular room to the right of the

18 staircase, as far as you remember, did not have a number?

19 A. No, we called it garage, room, whatever you like.

20 Q. Did you consider your room just that particular area where those four

21 walls were?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What else did the area you considered your room consist of?

24 A. From the entrance on the staircase, the pedestal, other stairs, then

25 upstairs to the right, to the left, that room where I was and

Page 4995

1 downstairs, and there was yet another smaller piece where there were

2 and we called it all one.

3 Q. Did the prisoners in that area go to lunch 30 prisoners at a time,

4 basically one group after another from that area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Once you entered the glass doors and started up the stairs and went

7 upstairs, were there guards in that area?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Could prisoners move around from the upstairs to the downstairs and

10 talk to other prisoners, for example?

11 A. Only those two rooms which we considered to be one, not further.

12 Q. Depending on the shift, was it possible sometimes to go outside on to

13 the floor of the hangar?

14 A. No, it only depended on the shift. If a shift was a good one we

15 could go downstairs from that room there, that was one room adjacent

16 to the other. There was a long wooden bench and we could sit there

17 and talk, and we could go into that room. It all depended on the will

18 of the guards.

19 Q. Sir, can I ask you briefly to describe the general conditions in

20 Omarska during the period of time you were held there?

21 A. I only do not know if it bears description, the way it was. From

22 beatings, killing, hunger, water, living conditions, a bath after 53

23 days as if you washed the truck, that is how we washed and many, many,

24 but beating, typhoid and many, many other things. I came to Trnopolje

25 and I had lost 35 kilogrammes during the Omarska camp.

Page 4996

1 Q. Were you transferred to Trnopolje camp when the main group of

2 prisoners were transferred from Omarska to either Manjaca or

3 Trnopolje?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you remain in Trnopolje until October 1st?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where were you first held when you arrived in Trnopolje?

8 A. I was in the wire until I managed, that is one cannot say about lice,

9 filth, and after that I found a little room in the school, a little

10 room for me, a little space for me in the school.

11 Q. Was it in the school that you stayed until you were transferred from

12 Trnopolje?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were there guards in Trnopolje camp?

15 A. More than I thought.

16 Q. Were they stationed at various places and around the camp?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After you arrived at -- at the time you arrived at Trnopolje did you

19 have any idea what had happened to your family?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Were you primarily interested in finding out some information about

22 what happened to your family or determining whether somebody might be

23 in a position to give you information?

24 A. That was my only purpose to find that out.

25 Q. Did you try to make a point when you could of looking around to see

Page 4997

1 whether or not there were people you knew from before the war who

2 might be able to give you some information on your family?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During the course of looking around for people who might be able to

5 provide you with some scrap of information about your family, did you

6 see any Serbs you knew from before the war in Trnopolje camp?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who did you see?

9 A. Zdravko Torbica, Goran Babic, Dule Tadic, Milos Radulovic, and many,

10 many others. That is, the only reason was to look who had, that is

11 what interested me most, who was there, whom could I approach to

12 enquire about my family, and that is why I was curious who was there

13 so as to learn something.

14 Q. Previously you mentioned a Serb from Kozarac by the name of Goran

15 Borovnica. Did you ever see him in Trnopolje?

16 A. There was Goran Borovnica. There were very many others.

17 Q. Did you know a man named Tepo Vidovic before the war?

18 A. Tepo Vidovic, Goran Vidovic, I am telling you there were many, many.

19 I did not give you all the names.

20 Q. When you saw these men, were they dressed in military uniform?

21 A. All but one.

22 Q. And who was not in military uniform?

23 A. Goran Babic.

24 Q. What was he wearing?

25 A. Police clothes, that is he was a policeman in Kozarac.

Page 4998

1 Q. Were these men whom you mentioned armed?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Sir, do you recall the first time you saw Dule Tadic in Trnopolje

4 camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where were you that day?

7 A. In the school.

8 Q. Could I briefly have Exhibit 277A presented to the witness?

9 (Handed). Sir, do you recognise what is shown in that photograph?

10 A. Very well I recognise it, except there are some changes here compared

11 to when I was here last.

12 Q. May that be placed on the Elmo? First of all, Mr. Arifagic, what

13 does it show?

14 A. This the school at Trnopolje.

15 Q. What are the changes you noticed from the time you were there?

16 A. When I was there these here logs were not there. This addition here,

17 this part here, did not exist. This was added subsequently. When, I

18 would not know that, but it was not there then.

19 Q. Your Honour, may this photograph be marked as Exhibit 310 for

20 identification, please. There is a copy for the Court. Sir, does this

21 photograph show the school from a different angle?

22 A. Yes, that is the self-same school, but not from the same side. The

23 entrance into the school.

24 Q. Your Honour, I would tender 310 for admission.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

Page 4999

1 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 310 will be admitted.

3 MR. TIEGER: May that be placed briefly on the Elmo. Sir, can we see in

4 this photograph the approximate position where you were on the first

5 occasion you saw Dule Tadic in Trnopolje?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you show us where that would be?

8 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].

9 Q. So, you were -- is that upstairs?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were you watching out of that window?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recall about what time of the day it was?

14 A. Afternoon it was. The time exactly I did not look.

15 Q. Do you remember approximately what period of time during your

16 confinement in Trnopolje that occurred?

17 A. When I came from Omarska I was weak. I was lying upstairs, but

18 afterwards, after some 15, 13 days must have been.

19 Q. When you first saw Dule Tadic where was he?

20 A. I said I was most trying to see somebody I knew whom I could tell

21 that I was there, so as to learn something about the family. I could

22 walk a little better then, so I walked up and down the school and it

23 was by chance that I reached that window and when I was there I saw

24 Dusko. He was moving towards this, in this direction, that is behind

25 the school. That was all very brief.

Page 5000

1 Q. So when you first saw him he was inside the fenced area we see in the

2 photograph, somewhere near the sidewalk and moving toward the school

3 but at an angle toward the left side of the school as we look at it,

4 is that correct?

5 A. Yes. Yes, to the left. Yes, he was moving there, towards that

6 corner there.

7 Q. Was he with anyone else or was he by himself?

8 A. He was alone.

9 Q. Do you remember what he was wearing on that occasion?

10 A. Whenever I saw him he was in clothes with weapons and that is with

11 automatic short weapons that we called an automatic rifle.

12 Q. The answer we received indicated simply that he was "in clothes with

13 weapons". Do you recall what kind of clothes?

14 A. Camouflage clothes, those multi-coloured camouflage.

15 Q. Let me ask you then about the next occasion on which you saw Dusko

16 Tadic. Where were you on that occasion?

17 A. Then I was in front of the school downstairs.

18 Q. Again, do you happen to remember what time of the day it was?

19 A. That was also afternoon 2 or 3.

20 Q. Let me ask to have Exhibit 277 placed on the Elmo, 277A, which shows

21 a slightly wider section of the area. Can we see in this photograph

22 the approximate position you were in on that occasion?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you point that out for us, please?

25 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph]. Here in front of the

Page 5001

1 school there was a kind of a pedestal where one could sit down and

2 have a smoke.

3 Q. That would be in the approximate position of the figures or people we

4 see in the photograph?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where was Dule Tadic when you saw him?

7 A. Here on the inside, here, here.

8 Q. You are indicating on the inside of that fenced area some metres away

9 from the corner which we see at the bottom left of the picture. On

10 that occasion was he by himself or was he with anyone?

11 A. No. No, he was with Goran Babic.

12 Q. When you saw Goran Babic and Dule Tadic what were they doing?

13 A. Standing.

14 Q. In what direction or directions were they facing?

15 A. They were facing one another.

16 Q. Relative to your position or relative to where you were, how were

17 they positioned?

18 A. One had his back to this side, and that is he was facing the asphalt

19 here and the other one was looking in that direction.

20 Q. So one was positioned basically with his back to the street and the

21 other with his back to the field or school?

22 A. Facing the field, not the school.

23 Q. What were Goran Babic and Dule Tadic doing? Were they just standing

24 there? Were they talking? Could you tell what they were doing?

25 A. They were only talking, but I did not want to see them, so I turned

Page 5002

1 my back and went upstairs.

2 Q. Why did you not want to stay in the position where you were?

3 A. Because we knew each other too well.

4 Q. Were you concerned about what might happen to you if either one of

5 them saw you?

6 A. That was the first thing.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I guess this would be an appropriate time.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

9 (5.30 p.m.).

10 (The court adjourned until the following day).

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25