Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5120

1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T

2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER

4 Tuesday, 13th August 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

7 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, before I call the next

8 witness, there are two photographs taken in relation to the witness

9 Hodzic on Friday when it was shown on the screen here with the video

10 camera. These have now been produced and I tender them. Might they

11 be marked 313A and 313B? They were taken off the video.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection from the Defence?

13 MR. KAY: No objection.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibits 313A and 313B will be admitted. We orally

16 granted the motion of the Prosecutor for protective measures for

17 witness S ----

18 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- who we will be hearing from next. There was no

20 objection on the part of Defence so we will proceed with witness S

21 with image distortion otherwise we will be in closed -- open session.

22 MR. NIEMANN: Open session, yes.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Open session. So the usher will have to lower the

24 shades for the witness to come in, please.

25 MR. NIEMANN: I call witness S, your Honour.

Page 5121

1 WITNESS S, called.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: There will be no recording, of course, when witness

3 S comes in.

4 Sir, would you please take the oath that has been handed to

5 you?

6 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

7 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

8 (The witness was sworn)

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

11 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

12 MR. NIEMANN: Could I ask the usher to show this piece of paper to the

13 Defence and then to give it to the witness, please?

14 Q. Witness, would you please look at the piece of paper you now see and

15 tell me if your name appears on that paper?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Sir, were you born on 24th March 1940?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where were you born?

20 A. In Kozarac, settlement Mutnik, and I grew up in Krkici at the

21 crossroads of Kozarac/Banja Luka/Prijedor road.

22 Q. Did you go to primary school, do your primary school, in Kozarac?

23 A. Primary school I completed in Kozarac, in the old school building.

24 To clarify that, in the old school building in Kozarac.

25 Q. Did you attend your secondary school also in Kozarac?

Page 5122

1 A. The high school, or that was the training as a baker, I completed

2 with my father Kulasic also at the crossroads across from the school

3 in Kozarac.

4 Q. Your father was the baker in Kozarac and did you follow him as being

5 the baker of Kozarac as well?

6 A. I finished the school for baker and my father was a baker and up

7 until this war he kept a bakery, and it was inherited by Meho, my

8 younger brother, and most recently it was his bakery in Kozarac and my

9 father was retired.

10 Q. In what part of Kozarac was the bakery that your family operated and

11 ran?

12 A. My family kept the bakery somewhere around 50 metres from the

13 crossroads of the old road, Prijedor/Banja Luka, and about 500 metres

14 from the new asphalt towards Mrakovica going from the new asphalt

15 towards the national park, Kozara, Mrakovica, about 500 metres away to

16 the old intersection. The bakery was across the street from the new

17 primary school in Kozarac and in that bakery most recently there was

18 [redacted] Mehmed, baker. That is my brother, my father's son.

19 Q. Perhaps you should not mention names other than the first names

20 perhaps. Would you tell me when you did your military service?

21 A. Yes. My military service, I served from 18 August '58 to the 1st

22 August 1960.

23 Q. Did you do that, firstly, in Sarajevo and then in Montenegro?

24 A. First, I was in Sarajevo, in Butile, in the military bakery, and then

25 I was transferred to Niksic in Montenegro.

Page 5123

1 Q. Are you by religion a Muslim?

2 A. Both my father and mother are Muslims, so I am a Muslim too and that

3 is why I am guilty.

4 Q. At the beginning of 1992 had you retired?

5 A. At the beginning of 1992 I retired as a -- but I worked in the

6 biscuit factory and then before that I was handicapped and then I was

7 on disability, and then after 1992 I was fully retired.

8 Q. Did you live about one and a half kilometres down the old Prijedor

9 road from the centre of the town of Kozarac?

10 A. Yes, I lived 1.5 kilometres away from -- kilometre towards Prijedor

11 on the old asphalt road.

12 Q. Were you in Kozarac on the day it was attacked on 24th May 1992?

13 A. In my own house I found myself there on the day of the attack and I

14 was taken prisoner in that same house.

15 Q. Did you stay in the house because of the state of your health?

16 A. I stayed in the house because of my health conditions, and in the

17 other shelters where I had information that I could go, there were a

18 lot of children and I was -- and I have asthma as my condition.

19 Q. Did one of your sons stay with you in your house?

20 A. My older son Adem stayed with me because of my health. He was under

21 my staircase in my own house.

22 Q. At one point did a tank come up to your house and put the gun turret

23 through the window of the house?

24 A. At one point we heard, that is, my son and I, that something was

25 approaching that looked like a tank. We could not see it until the

Page 5124

1 barrel came through and then a shot, a shell, and I heard that

2 something was broken, and then when I -- later when I got out, I saw

3 that it went over my son's car, Yugo, that it went over it and that it

4 broke through the window and that it -- as if people were acting out.

5 I do not know why they did it.

6 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, at this stage might I request a redaction at

7 10.17, page 4, line 5? Your Honour, it is the word which -----

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, I see it. Is there any objection? It would be

9 the sixth word and then -----

10 MR. NIEMANN: It is 5 and 6, your Honour.

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just the name? Do you want anything else? The last

13 word or -- OK. It is up to you to tell me and then I will get a

14 response.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, we would be happy if the sixth word stayed in

16 but the fifth word, even though it is not spelt correctly here in the

17 transcript, when it is corrected it would not be a problem ----

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK.

19 MR. NIEMANN: --- so if the fifth word could go and the sixth word could

20 stay.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Any objection?

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be granted.

24 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Niemann, I do not know if the tank incident is of any

25 significance, but if it is I do not think it is at all clear.

Page 5125

1 MR. NIEMANN: It is not of great significance, your Honour. I think I will

2 move on.

3 [To the witness]: Were you then taken as prisoner? Were you

4 then captured?

5 A. The tank was in front of the house and it fired a shell, two unknown

6 young men came and ran up and on the way back, because I responded,

7 they captured me and they asked for the arms and I gave them a pistol

8 I had and they took myself and my son out of the house.

9 Q. Did they take your son at that stage or just you?

10 A. My son was taken away somewhere, I do not know where, in what

11 direction, but only I stayed in front of the house and from across the

12 road.

13 Q. Were you then loaded on to a bus?

14 A. After that there was a lot of mistreatment on the part of this person

15 from the tank who got out and mistreated me. For a while he walked me

16 up and down the asphalt, and told me that somebody from his family had

17 died, that his uncle or something, that I would be his uncle, and that

18 I would look like him if I was, I was to be beheaded, and that was a

19 lot of chicanery and it went on for about half an hour.

20 Then the young man who had taken my pistol away from me came

21 back and grabbed me by the scruff of my neck and pushed me into the

22 bus, and I came in. I was afraid of him, so I sort of crouched. Then

23 he came looking for me and he found a person who looked like me. He

24 slapped him twice and somebody said, "No, that is not the one" and

25 then he got the other slap and the bus started, and I considered

Page 5126

1 myself lucky to have been on that bus, and I went to Prijedor. If I

2 need to go on, I will go on.

3 Q. No. When you got on the bus, the person who was driving the tank,

4 the man that abused you, came on the bus looking for you but could not

5 find you. He mistook you for somebody else, is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. He then got off the bus and the bus went off to Prijedor?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When you went to Prijedor you went to a place near the SUP?

10 A. The bus stopped between the SUP and the municipality building, and

11 the men were taken off the bus. We went through the cordon of the

12 military. I do not know if they were the police or the military

13 because they were wearing the uniforms of the reserve military. So we

14 went through this cordon. Everybody got something, either with a rifle

15 butt or a baton, until we went into the SUP and went into the back

16 building. So it was, it was the building in the back, in the

17 courtyard, in the back.

18 Q. When you say "everybody got something", you mean everybody got hit?

19 A. Yes. That is what I meant.

20 Q. When you finally had gone through the cordon, did you then empty

21 everything out of your pockets on to the ground?

22 A. When we went past through the cordon, then we went through into the

23 cordon and we had to put up our hands up like this and then they said,

24 "Take the right arm and empty everything from the right pocket, and

25 then the same from, take down the left hand and empty the left

Page 5127

1 pockets". After that we could not see what was going on behind us

2 because whoever budged, even a millimetre, they would be beaten.

3 During that I heard the conversation and a man walked in from

4 somewhere, I do not know who he was, but he was whimpering. Then we

5 were told to pick up everything that was there, either the wallets or

6 the personal identity card, whatever we had thrown out of our pockets

7 and whatever they wanted they had picked up as evidence or something.

8 In that moment nothing was taken away from me, neither my personal ID

9 card or my military veteran book, nothing, not even money at that

10 time.

11 Q. After all this had happened and sometime later, were you loaded back

12 on to the bus or the mini van and were you taken to the Keraterm camp?

13 A. After all that a van arrived, I think it was Zastava make, and we

14 were loaded in the back, and we started in what to me was then an

15 unknown direction. Then we came to a railroad overpass. I had a

16 sense that that was what was happening and so I thought that we were

17 going towards Banja Luka. After that short time, I found myself in

18 front of Keraterm and the van turned around and we got off into that

19 building, and I called this "boxes". Those were rooms in Keraterm

20 where they were drying, I do not know what they had, tiles or

21 something. So we called them box 1, box 2, box 3, box 4. So, in

22 Keraterm there were those boxes. That is how I was calling them and

23 also the ones who were with me. I was in box 3.

24 Q. These boxes were part of the process of making the tiles, were they?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5128

1 Q. They were large enough to hold quite a number of people?

2 A. They were very large, but all that number of people who were there at

3 that point was not really sufficient, that is, it was so crowded one

4 could not sit down. If one did sit down, you could not stand up, that

5 is, everybody had to move to one side and pack into one side so that

6 somebody could make a move. We were totally packed there, and they

7 were pushing us in so that they could close the door. The door was

8 metal and it was closed, then pushing us in. But they were very

9 large, I mean, those boxes. They were not small.

10 Q. Then were people taken out in groups and interrogated?

11 A. On 26th, when I was taken out, a group of people were taken out for

12 interrogation, but not all were taken for interrogation. They were

13 taken out of these boxes. They were people of elder generation who

14 went for interrogation, either they first or what, I was not really

15 abreast of what was happening, but there were not, at any rate, any

16 young people who went for interrogation. Whether anybody went before

17 that, I could not see.

18 But young people were passing by, one by one, next to my box

19 and where did they go, whether for interrogation or something else, I

20 could not see at the time. The examination was for us elderly. There

21 were 52, I think, 50 people were interrogated during that first go in

22 Keraterm -- not there, they would call you out and then take you for

23 interrogation.

24 Q. At your interrogation did you produce your military booklet which had

25 a special stamp on it and did they consider that you had been disabled

Page 5129

1 or were disabled?

2 A. At the exit from the building for interrogation, there could go a man

3 who was 60 or, perhaps, 65 and invalids who were -- who could not

4 move, and I had this booklet showing that I was a wartime military

5 invalid. I showed them my booklet and that guard told

6 me, excuse me, that that man who had captured me was nuts, crazier

7 than I was, and told me "Go out". Perhaps this young man really

8 thought that I was a wartime invalid because I had this acronym RMI

9 which, in our language, would mean a wartime military invalid, but it

10 was not that. I was invalided when I served the army, not in wartime.

11 So, of course, all the invalids, they were financed from one

12 and the same till. Our fringe benefits were paid out from one and the

13 same place, both for us who were wartime invalids and those who were

14 invalided in peace time but in the army. Whether he knew what that

15 booklet was, whether he did not, whether he had ever seen it before or

16 not, I do not know, but that is how I got out. That is how I was

17 fortunate enough to get out and very many of my colleagues were not as

18 fortunate and did not get out.

19 Q. But were you then later interrogated, a few hours later, two hours

20 later?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On this occasion did they beat you?

23 A. Not the first time, the second time.

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. That is another question.

Page 5130

1 Q. The second time I am asking you about. On the second occasion were

2 you beaten?

3 A. About the second interrogation, the second interrogation I was

4 called. I do not know who was on the interrogation commission, but

5 there were several pictures, there were several photographs they had

6 showing my family house. On the ground floor was a shop and a coffee

7 bar, and I could notice a soldier coming out wearing a uniform. I

8 could not see

9 it because it was taken from a great distance. I could not recognise

10 the soldier but I recognised my house. I recognised the shop and I

11 saw that it was a soldier or something, and the first question was,

12 how much money had I donated to the Ustasha. The second question, how

13 much bread had I given to the Ustasha. The third question, at least

14 while I was still conscious and the beating had started because they

15 were beating me then, but the third question I really was aware of

16 was, how long was I going to feed the extremists?

17 After that I knew nothing because then my jaw was broken. I

18 wore prosthesis. All this was broken. On the prosthesis there is a

19 steel wire and all the teeth fell out and the wire, I guess, stretched

20 or changed, so it pricked me. I lost consciousness. I was taken out.

21 What happened next, whether they went on beating me, how much they

22 beat me, I simply do not know. I woke up on the lower floor next to a

23 wash basin. Two soldiers were holding me there and one was pouring

24 water on my neck and that is when I regain consciousness.

25 Q. Do you know the accused in these proceedings, Dusko Tadic?

Page 5131

1 A. Dusko Tadic, his family, I have known since, that is, his father I

2 have known since '47, '48, he was my next door neighbour until the

3 restaurant was built, and a man called Salih Hamic built a house

4 between our two houses. So, my father's house and Ostoja Tadic's

5 house, the late Ostoja Tadic's, were one next to the other

6 practically. There was nothing between them. It was an empty space

7 there. Nothing existed there for a long time, so that we were next

8 door neighbours, that is, our fathers, my father and Mr. Ostoja,

9 Dule's father, were neighbours. So Mr. Ostoja was my first neighbour

10 until Salih Hamic built his house in between.

11 Q. During the time that you lived in Kozarac leading up to the war in

12 1992, did you often see Dule Tadic around the town of Kozarac?

13 A. Dule, Dusan Tadic, Dule, I saw him often because he had some contacts

14 with my elder son who kept a shop, his own, in my house and his

15 brother's, Mirsad's. So he had a shop and they had some contact, I do

16 not know whether it was a business or what before the war. Right

17 before the war I saw him on the pavement not far from his house, about

18 100 metres, next to a grill or restaurant, a small grill place, where

19 one could eat, perhaps have a juice or a beer. It was called "Mega".

20 We were passing. He was coming up Kozarac and I was going down

21 Kozarac. I was on the right and he was on the left-hand side. As the

22 houses were, he was going up Kozarac. That was the last time I saw

23 him before the war break out.

24 Q. Do you refer to the accused as "Dule" Tadic, "Dusan" Tadic or

25 "Dusko" Tadic?

Page 5132

1 A. I know Dusan as "Dusan", Ostoja Tadic's Dusan, and the nickname was

2 given to him by his colleagues and there is a pet name or something,

3 but I heard him being called "Dule" Tadic, and I always address people

4 in their right name, regardless of whether anyone had a nickname or

5 not. Nicknames are quite a sinful thing sometimes and they can be

6 offensive so I did not want -- I never wanted to do that.

7 Q. Did you know Dusan Tadic's brothers?

8 A. Mladen and Stojan very well, I knew Ljubo less.

9 Q. Do you know whether or not Dusan Tadic was involved in sporting

10 activities when he was living in Kozarac?

11 A. Mr. Tadic, Mr. Tadic was active in karate. I could see that before

12 he had his coffee bar in his yard behind his own house he had the

13 equipment, karate equipment, and he played with that. I even heard --

14 I did not see that -- that he had formed a club and that he trained

15 those younger boys, like a karate club or something, and that that was

16 a room or something. I did not see that, but I have heard from some

17 of his relatively close friends that he was a karateist and I saw him

18 in that uniform, in a white, what shall I put it, a white karate

19 uniform behind his house in their yard. Whether he was practising

20 there, training or running up and down, but I saw him practising that.

21 That was a long time ago, 10 years ago or five, six or 10 years ago,

22 rather.

23 Q. Witness, when you were in the Keraterm camp, did you see Dusan Tadic?

24 A. Keraterm?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 5133

1 A. While I was at the camp, then when I went out for the first

2 examination, I saw Dule Tadic at Keraterm gate next to that, to that

3 small house at the entrance into Keraterm next to that gate where

4 trucks -- next to the scales where trucks are weighed and things, and

5 next to that was a structure, a glass one, from which one could judge

6 how heavy was the freight, the commodity that was weighed there, and

7 he was next to that at the gate in Keraterm. I was some 30 metres

8 away from Mr. Tadic.

9 Q. Do you remember what date this was?

10 A. That was on 26th May '92.

11 Q. What time of the day was it, do you recall?

12 A. It must have been morning, but more specifically, I do not know if it

13 is very important or not, I could not ascertain that.

14 Q. Where were you when you first saw him?

15 A. I was with several people down Keraterm towards the asphalt road,

16 Prijedor/Banja Luka, somewhere from those scales, about 30 metres

17 away.

18 Q. Did you have a good, unobstructed view of him when you saw him?

19 A. I could see the gentleman very well, because, let me tell you, it

20 scared me out of my wits. Why do I say that? I felt when I saw a

21 neighbour wearing a uniform, I knew Dule, that is, his family, and I

22 was afraid. Fear seized me because many people who met at that time,

23 I, let me tell you, avoided contact with anyone I had known because

24 they also had known me. They knew me quite well and I avoided

25 contact, and there were also other reasons why I feared that man.

Page 5134

1 Q. The uniform that he wore, did you recognise that uniform?

2 A. The upper, at the top part was a police uniform, and he had a single

3 colour trousers, and he had something up here behind the lapel, behind

4 the collar. Whether it was a beret or something else, I do not know.

5 It looked like a cap, but it also could have been some insignia. It

6 looked rather stiff. It was that wide and it was in his collar.

7 Q. So you think he may have had his hat tucked into the lapel of his

8 coat?

9 A. Yes, you know how you have this thing on shirts, and I thought it was

10 a cap, but those soldiers, rather, soldiers, soldiers that I used to

11 see, would wear it there, and also around the sleeve some people had

12 bands, white or blue or red, that I used to see before. So that could

13 also have been some marking, but I still think it was a cap.

14 Q. On this occasion when you saw him, did he have a beard or was he

15 clean shaven?

16 A. He was shaven. He did not have a beard, but whether he was clean

17 shaven or not, do not really ask me that. 30 metres away one can

18 recognise an individual, but to see a beard, no, I am not really sure

19 whether he shaved that day, the day before or two days before or a

20 couple of hours before. I could not say that. But a person I know,

21 and of a slightly dark complexion, when they are some way away that

22 you cannot really recognise whether they are so dark, whether it was

23 simply that the person had not shaved, whether it was just stubble or

24 whether he was really shaven, one could not tell.

25 Q. When you knew and saw Dule Tadic in around the town of Kozarac before

Page 5135

1 the war, did you know him as a person who wore a beard or not?

2 A. The gentleman had a beard, but not for long periods of time.

3 Sometime he had a beard -- I did meet him with a beard -- but more

4 often did I see him without a beard.

5 Q. When was the next time you saw him in the Keraterm camp?

6 A. The next time I saw him in the Keraterm camp when I went for my

7 second examination. At that time he had his foot on a car -- that was

8 a police car -- and then I had time as I was waiting and I heard more

9 time to observe. With him was, believe it or not, because I know the

10 man, I know he is a taxi driver in Prijedor, and until that time I

11 knew only the surname of that person as a taxi driver. He was -- it

12 was Zigic and they called him "Ziga" but I did not know his first

13 name. He was a taxi driver in Prijedor and his name was Zigic.

14 Q. This is who ----

15 A. Other particulars, I do not know.

16 Q. --- you saw Tadic with on this second occasion?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know what date this was?

19 A. The 27th, 27th May '92.

20 Q. Do you know what time of the day it was? Was it morning or

21 afternoon?

22 A. Afternoon. It was in the afternoon.

23 Q. About how far were you from Dusan Tadic on this occasion?

24 A. On that occasion I could have been some 20 metres away, less than 30,

25 maybe 20 metres, but I passed by those people and then I got to a

Page 5136

1 distance of about 30 metres again where we were waiting for some

2 people to be taken out. Some buses were to enter Keraterm and unload,

3 and other guys were boarding some buses going in an unknown direction,

4 and that is when I looked at Tadic and thinking about my two sons who

5 were in Keraterm and those two were there.

6 Q. How far was Tadic away from the buses that were arriving and being

7 loaded and unloaded in Keraterm?

8 A. The buses passed not more than five metres from Mr. Tadic, less than

9 five metres, as one came in and one went out.

10 Q. From what you were able to observe, was Dusan Tadic doing anything

11 with the people who were getting on or off the buses?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What about the person he was with, did you see what he was doing,

14 Zigic?

15 A. That person was seen in our camp during my first and during my second

16 interrogation as the boss of the camp -- no, I cannot say boss. I do

17 not know what he was, but the person who could issue orders to one of

18 their policeman to bring out such and such a person by name, whether

19 he was the chief or something or a commanding person of some kind,

20 whether he had a position of some authority, I really cannot say, but

21 he evidently had powers to order and pass on a piece of paper.

22 He was not the one who was calling out. He would bid somebody

23 else to give him this and tell him call out this or that. Whether he

24 was their boss or their superior, whether he was what, I do not really

25 know.

Page 5137

1 Q. Did you see Tadic and Zigic do anything together when they were there

2 on this occasion when you were looking at them?

3 A. They were talking, the two of them, but I could not hear what. I

4 could see they were talking, and I could see their mouths opening and

5 closing, but what they talked about, what kind of a conversation they

6 had, that I could not say. I cannot tell you that I heard something

7 when I heard nothing.

8 Q. Did you see them do anything, Tadic and Zigic?

9 A. I only saw a conversation and some explanation with hands and what

10 were they explaining to each other, I would not know.

11 Q. How was Tadic dressed on this occasion?

12 A. He had a police uniform, like that day he was dressed the same way,

13 except that I saw him different because one of his feet was on the car

14 and his colleague was standing next to him. I saw him a little way

15 away from the scales, from the weighing station, and he was within the

16 grounds. That was the only difference.

17 Q. Did you notice whether or not he had any arms on him, any weapons?

18 A. No, no, I did not see.

19 Q. Did you see whether or not on this occasion he had any head wear on

20 his person?

21 A. I also saw then he was bare headed, and I also saw something under

22 his collar, but what was that, whether it was a cap or what, I do not

23 know.

24 Q. Did you see Tadic give Zigic anything?

25 A. In explaining things by hands, that conversation of theirs, I could

Page 5138

1 not really see that. It was not really a friendly conversation. I

2 could realise there was some kind of altercation between them, but

3 what they were talking about, I do not know. Mr. Tadic was facing in

4 my direction and that taxi driver whose name was Zigic, he was a

5 little bit sideways turned and they were explaining something to each

6 other, but I told you already the last time, I do not know what it

7 was, whether they were explaining something to one another, whether

8 they were looking for something, explaining certain things, what they

9 were doing, I did not hear so I cannot tell you I heard Tadic saying

10 that and that because I did not.

11 Q. After your stay in Keraterm camp, did you go to the Trnopolje camp?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were you in Trnopolje camp from between 17 to 19 days?

14 A. 18 full days. On the 19th I was discharged. I was given a discharge

15 list. Major Kuruzovic or Kuruzovic or something, I think, gave me

16 this discharge letter allowing me to leave the camp and I still have

17 that document with me.

18 Q. During the time that you were in Trnopolje camp, did you see Dusan

19 Tadic?

20 A. I saw Dusan Tadic in Trnopolje, but let me tell you first, the road

21 Trnopolje, that is, railway station Kozarac, on that segment there is

22 also the primary school in Trnopolje where we were in the camp. On

23 the opposite side from the school was once, there used to be a

24 restaurant. It used to belong when I was younger to Husko Elezovic,

25 but when I came to the camp that building was used as the SDS or Serb

Page 5139

1 Army or something headquarters. I do not know what they call it.

2 But, in any event, that was the headquarters on that other side

3 opposite from the school in Trnopolje.

4 Q. Is this where the camp Commander and the soldiers used to congregate

5 and stay, at this restaurant that you are describing?

6 A. That is where the camp Commander stayed of Trnopolje camp, Commander

7 Mr. Kuruzovic, and his immediate subordinates. Their soldier could,

8 perhaps, go into that structure for orders or for whatever. On the

9 other side was the surgery, rather, ambulanta, the first aid surgery,

10 and there was the Red Cross where subsequently we had to go to apply

11 and ask for permission to go out, and a pub where the soldiers of the

12 Serb Army go to have a juice or a beer, refreshment, get some

13 refreshment, and proceed.

14 There in front of the school, older people and women and

15 personnel looking for some permit to go out or certificate, that is,

16 only those in need of some kind of a document, could cross the road,

17 otherwise it was prohibited to unofficially walk in front of our camp.

18 Q. Where were you when you saw Dusan Tadic at Trnopolje camp?

19 A. I was in front of the Local Commune building in Trnopolje which is

20 next to the school building, and that was also where the Red Cross was

21 when Mr. Tadic arrived there on the asphalt road from Kozarac. Before

22 him, several minutes ahead of him, maybe 20 minutes ahead of him, from

23 that same direction came some kind of a track vehicle with a machine

24 gun on top of it arrived. Then I found myself there in the vicinity

25 where the road -- six to eight metres from the road and I saw Mr.

Page 5140

1 Tadic in Trnopolje there.

2 Q. Where was Mr. Tadic? Was he on the road, was he?

3 A. The first time when I first -- when I first saw him I saw him on the

4 road. He was going down the road to the entrance of that restaurant,

5 but he was not going in there, but at the gate he saw the officers, he

6 saw those officers, and together with them he got again not among the

7 prisoners but in that part of the perimeter of the camp where not

8 everybody was allowed to be, only those who were coming in who had

9 some requests. There were women there. There were women and children

10 who were taking children along with them so that they would be, sort

11 of, protected more, and that is where Tadic came in and that is where

12 the restaurant was where you could consume alcohol or anything else.

13 That was a club at one point of this Local Commune and then it turned

14 into a restaurant.

15 That is where I saw Tadic when he entered, but I was looking

16 at him -- it was for a while -- until he got in. When he already got

17 into the perimeter, then I saw some people in front of me, some

18 movements, so that I could not see his lower part of the body. I

19 only saw the part up, and down the road I saw him completely. When he

20 was going down the roadway, as he was coming inside, then I could see

21 all, the whole person.

22 Q. So at first you saw all of him, then he became mixed with a group of

23 people ----

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- who were standing waiting to be issued with documents from the

Page 5141

1 restaurant, and at that stage your view of him was at least partially

2 obstructed so you could only see his head or the top half of his body?

3 A. Yes. Then later between people I saw the upper part.

4 Q. Did you see him with anyone? Did he appear to be talking to anyone

5 when you saw him on this occasion?

6 A. Mr. Tadic at that time spoke to Mr. Major Kuruzovic and two young men

7 were also there, the escorts, bodyguards or escorts, or they were

8 drivers. Believe me, I do not know, but there were two of them, two

9 good looking, strong young men who were always with Mr. Major. Now,

10 what they were talking, I could not tell you. I was scared because

11 when somebody comes from the direction of Kozarac to Trnopolje, then

12 they were coming for something. That is how we saw it; that he was

13 either going to interrogate somebody or to finish off some business

14 which meant the death penalty.

15 Q. The person you saw him with was the Commander of the camp and two

16 police officers or two guards were with the Commander?

17 A. Two guards or two bodyguards or two drivers, a driver and an escort,

18 I do not know. One was on the other side of the Major and the other

19 one was on this side. Whether the Major had gone into that restaurant

20 or not, there were always two, on rare occasions three, but always two

21 with this Commander.

22 Q. Did you see how Dusan Tadic arrived there at Trnopolje on that day?

23 A. He came, Tadic, with a car that I saw him in the other day in

24 Keraterm. That was the police car, the blue police squad car, darker

25 like behind the Honourable Judges, the background, like this.

Page 5142

1 Q. On this occasion when you saw Dusan Tadic in Trnopolje camp, how was

2 he dressed?

3 A. Mr. Tadic even then had, the top was the multicoloured uniform like a

4 shirt or a blouse. I cannot tell you how it was styled. It was open

5 up here. It was a solid colour, pants, and so he was moving around

6 like some kind of a half civilian or a man who had a top of the

7 camouflage -- of the multi-coloured uniform. I cannot tell you that

8 he had a multi-coloured uniform down -- I do not know. It was not a

9 uniform. It was just a solid coloured pants.

10 Q. The multi-coloured uniform top, the multi-coloured top, that he had

11 on, that was the police camouflage uniform, was it?

12 A. The policeman, the special, some of them wore those special

13 multi-colour uniforms, the regular policemen who were -- that we had

14 had the regular police uniform or the winter uniform, and the special

15 police wore those multi-colour with, I do not know, something like

16 leaves, something that would be like a camouflage. Those people were

17 working as interrogators, as lawyers. Those were the ones who were

18 interrogating me and those had those uniforms, some of them. Then

19 others had completely civilian clothes, the ones of those who

20 interrogated. Whether they were using it because the intellectuals

21 wore them among them, I did not -- I had no knowledge of that. It was

22 summer so it was a light, but it was like a shirt or a blouse like

23 camouflage, and the others wore complete police uniforms, the

24 policemen. They wore complete police uniforms that used to exist in

25 Yugoslavia at the time. This between, among soldiers, soldiers wore

Page 5143

1 SMB uniforms and the reservists wore the SMB with some insignia over

2 here, on the sleeve or up on the epaulette. Now, what this meant to

3 them, the top multi-coloured and the bottom solid, I do not know what

4 it meant to them, I cannot explain this, what that fact meant. One

5 should ask the gentleman or some other people who -- he would ----

6 Q. OK.

7 A. -- he would not know that.

8 Q. Would you, please, look around the courtroom and tell me if you see

9 the person that you know and recognise as Dusan Tadic?

10 A. The young man between the two policemen, that is Mr. Tadic, and he

11 knows me very well. I think that we, as neighbours, know each other

12 very well. Look at me, I am ----

13 Q. Can you tell me what colour clothes he has on?

14 A. He has a jacket, a multi-coloured tie, a white shirt and then his

15 hair is pushed back. Do not ask me too much. We know each other very

16 well. He knows me and I know him. Just be sure that I did not make a

17 mistake.

18 MR. NIEMANN: Might the record reflect, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

20 identified the accused.

21 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

23 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

24 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

25 Q. Witness, you described being at Keraterm on 26th May 1992, and on

Page 5144

1 this occasion you told us that you saw Dusko Tadic, is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This was in the morning. I wonder if you could help us with the time

4 in the morning that that would have been? Early hours of the morning,

5 mid morning or late hours of the morning?

6 A. I can tell you that this was after 10 o'clock, and what time, that is

7 very difficult, the exact time. At that time my hands were shaking

8 and my eyes were darting around. I was looking for people.

9 Q. You at this stage were to be interrogated, is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic that morning in Keraterm camp on 26th May,

12 were you on your way to be interrogated?

13 A. After seeing him I went to the interrogation. To clarify, it was the

14 first interrogation, so that I emphasise the first interrogation.

15 Q. So at the time of seeing him were you inside the box where you were

16 kept or were you outside the box?

17 A. At that time I was outside the box, not far from the gentleman, about

18 30 metres, I already said that, and I was moving. We were standing,

19 because I was not the only one called out to be interrogated. There

20 were more of us. Five by five we went up the stairs to the top floor

21 of Keraterm, five rooms, everybody separated from one another.

22 Q. So you were in a group of five prisoners who that morning and at that

23 time were being taken to be questioned in another part of the

24 building?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5145

1 Q. You described him as wearing at least at the top part a police

2 uniform and having single coloured trousers? The top part, the police

3 uniform, can you describe that for me?

4 A. I can only say that the top part of the police uniform are similar to

5 the camouflage uniform -- the JNA special units used to wear them. To

6 clarify this, the people who had special tasks in the JNA, in the

7 woods, in the grass, outdoors, had those uniforms to be similar to the

8 ground, and for us those were the camouflage uniforms, to us. That is

9 a part of the uniform that looks like the ground where they are

10 supposed to execute their duties.

11 At that time they were wearing those uniforms and we in

12 Keraterm, we called them the special police. If you see such a person

13 with such a uniform, he had a special task. Those people, we paid

14 more attention to those people. If you understand me, if you do not

15 understand, I do not know how to explain in another way. That is my

16 ability to explain to you as a Defence counsel how these uniforms,

17 speaking expertly, because I was in the army, I had a lot of contacts

18 with the army and I was a reserve officer. So from based my own

19 professional experience, that is my explanation.

20 Q. When you said it is a police uniform, do you mean that the basic

21 colour is one of blue?

22 A. The police of Yugoslavia, that is, the Yugoslav police had

23 traditionally -- wore traditionally blue uniforms, but SDS took over

24 the power and they had traditional powers and traditional uniforms and

25 traditional authorities and traditionally wanted to kill us all. That

Page 5146

1 is the tradition.

2 Q. But on this occasion that you say you saw him, you are clear that he

3 was not wearing a hat on his head, is that right?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Meaning he did not have a hat on his head?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you. As far as you are aware, there was no beard being worn on

8 his face?

9 A. When I saw him he did not have a beard, not a pronounced beard. I do

10 not know what you understand as a beard. We, in Bosnia, when you have

11 hair that you can pull it with your hand, that is a beard, but this is

12 a beard, and to have hair, to have facial hair, is to have on that

13 part of the body.

14 Q. When you saw him on this occasion, was your view obstructed in any

15 way?

16 A. The first time, I am sorry, the first time?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. No.

19 Q. The distance he was from you was how far?

20 A. He was up to 30 metres away from me. The first time I saw him he was

21 up to 30 metres away from me.

22 Q. On this occasion was he on his own or with anyone?

23 A. In Keraterm at the gate there was no single person. There was, to

24 make it clear, a person who was communicating with somebody. There

25 were guards that were security that -- the bird could not pass. I

Page 5147

1 know it is foolish to say that, but that is how it was. They had

2 bunkers, they had machine guns -- that you have photographs, you have

3 pictures, what Keraterm was like and what the security was like.

4 Q. The next time you saw him you say was the next day in the afternoon,

5 so that would be 27th May?

6 A. Yes, 27th, 27th May in the afternoon I was called out for

7 interrogation for the second time and I also had to wait. Probably

8 maybe the gentleman may remember that. I was called out to

9 interrogation and before me the person who went to interrogation was

10 that, no, Baltic Hamdija, and a salesman of construction supply, Sahib

11 Kahrimanovic. So I was there outside for a while and I had a good

12 view and I could see very well Mr. Tadic and his, I do not know if he

13 was his colleagues or -- the taxi driver, Mr. -- his name was Zigic,

14 the taxi driver from Prijedor.

15 Q. When you say the afternoon, was that early afternoon, mid afternoon

16 or late afternoon? Can you help us with the timing?

17 A. It was between 12.00 and 2.30. After 12.00, we have noon at 12.00,

18 and then between 12.00 and 2.30 is the time period when I could see

19 Mr. Tadic.

20 Q. Thank you. You next tell us that you saw him in Trnopolje and you

21 refer to the building opposite the camp that had been a restaurant but

22 was used as an office for the camp Commander as well as a place where

23 soldiers had drinks and met. If internees in the camp had to see the

24 camp Commander to obtain release documents or any other official

25 papers, is that where they would go?

Page 5148

1 A. No, the person who was issuing the documents in the Red Cross, there

2 were girls who worked as nurses or the officials of the Local Commune,

3 and they were filling out those documents and in a folder, taking it

4 over for it to be certified. What he wanted to see himself, he would

5 cross over to the Red Cross office and he would verify for himself

6 whether a person was disabled or handicapped or something. Those were

7 exceptional cases when he would come into the camp to verify something

8 and often those check-ups, he would just walk up and down the camp and

9 check something, I do not know what.

10 Q. By that you mean Major Kuruzovic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. He was the man who signed your release documents after 18 days?

13 A. He is the person who signed my release document after 18 days which I

14 can provide as evidence.

15 Q. In Trnopolje at this time as you were released yourself because of

16 health reasons, is it right that other people were being released at

17 this time as well?

18 A. At that time a bus was -- a bus load was released and there were

19 three men among us and the rest were women who were going to go to

20 Donja Puharska.

21 MR. KAY: I have no further questions, thank you.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

23 Re-examined by MR. NIEMANN

24 Q. Witness, the Red Cross that was at Trnopolje camp that you just

25 mentioned, was that the local Red Cross or was it the International

Page 5149

1 Red Cross or do you not know?

2 A. Excuse me for having to laugh! During my stay in the camp there was

3 no presence of the International Red Cross. We had to call it the Red

4 Cross because they wore, the people who, the personnel there wore the

5 Red Cross. I do not know if it was blood or help, I could not tell

6 you that.

7 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Nothing further, your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

9 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.

10 Examined by the Court

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just one question, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Regarding your testimony about Trnopolje camp, you said that there

14 was an area where persons could not enter without special permission.

15 You said, as I recall, that was the area near the cafe and the first

16 aid, I think you identified it as, that would be the ambulanta, I

17 guess. Why is that so, and what do you mean by special permission?

18 A. I can tell you that you needed special permission because there that

19 part was used, this ambulanta -- just not to be misunderstood, it was

20 just a cover for some help, because I was looking for medication but

21 Pasic worked there, and this is what he told me, "I know that you are

22 sick but I cannot give you, there is nothing that I can give you. I

23 have a pill that I can give you just to soothe your pain, nothing

24 else". This ambulanta existed so that when a person was well beaten

25 up, that somebody would bandage him and so that he would not die that

Page 5150

1 moment or some died, I do not know. So they were bandaged people --

2 they were bandaging people there when they were beaten that day.

3 Q. My question was really trying to focus on how you got into the area.

4 We have seen photos of Trnopolje and we have a diagram that someone

5 prepared, another witness. It is my understanding, at least, that you

6 would have to pass a sentry post as you came into the road to

7 Trnopolje, but that there was a fence around the environs of the camp

8 itself. I would define "camp" as being that area where you had the

9 commune. For example, there was a theatre there, formerly it was a

10 theatre, a school, where the inmates were kept. There was, as I

11 understand, a fence around that area, that the fence had been there

12 before and it remained for a certain point in time. There were fences

13 in certain other areas. But I am really focusing on the other side of

14 the fence where there was a road that comes through and you come in,

15 as I understand it, past a sentry post and across the road there is a

16 bar, for example, and some other places that you described. You said

17 that you needed special permission to be in that area. My question

18 is, what do you mean by "special permission" and how do you know that?

19 A. An inmate who was across the gymnasium, there was an open space where

20 it was not covered and down from there there was construction supplies

21 store and warehouse and then that was enclosed, before the war where

22 those construction supplies were sold, and that was separated from the

23 Local Commune and the school house.

24 Where you went upstairs to the Local Commune down off the dom

25 Trnopolje, not the school house, of the dom building, in Trnopolje,

Page 5151

1 where you went upstairs, up the stairs, an inmate who was above that

2 line in the ground had to pass along that wall, one by one, so that he

3 would be visible, so there would not be a crowd. Maybe they were

4 afraid of crowds.

5 So that path you could go to the ambulanta or the Red Cross

6 and you go, 15, 20, 30 of you, and they say, "Stop, no more until

7 these are done with their business", the business, what are you

8 looking for? You are looking for a pass to go somewhere. You wanted

9 medical aid, you want something from the Red Cross or you were looking

10 for somebody. They were looking for a person they knew either in the

11 Serb military or in Trnopolje or down in Babici or Kararici or

12 whatever village, who were looking for their neighbours or whoever.

13 At that time, during that period of time when I was there, it

14 was still -- Trnopolje was still not fully cleansed of Muslims. Still

15 in the area of Trnopolje around the camp there were civilians in their

16 own houses. Kozarac had not been cleansed completely down Trnopolje.

17 They were going village by village, hamlet by hamlet, and they were

18 cleansing down towards Trnopolje. When they came to Kamicani, they

19 went down and they went village by village, hamlet by hamlet. Maybe

20 they could not get to it, I do not know what the plan was, I do not

21 know, but there were still the Trnopolje people in their own houses,

22 that mixture. Somebody may have been afraid, but this is my personal

23 view.

24 So 15, 20 or 30 of us had to go to this open space where I

25 told you that you needed a special permission. You could not go

Page 5152

1 whenever you wanted and in whichever way you wanted. You had to

2 report and then, let us say, five of us and that is the special

3 permission, so -----

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, I understand. Did you need special permission

5 to get past the sentry post on that road, or there were two roads, I

6 guess, that you could take to leave this area. Did you need special

7 permission? Would one need special permission to pass the sentry

8 post?

9 A. Where we were and where I told you that I was, for that part of the

10 camp you did not need a special permission, but outside of the gate,

11 outside of the iron gate, for that you needed special permission.

12 That means to get out on the road. For that you needed special

13 permission, whereas within the perimeter you just need permission of

14 the guards, so that you would not have 50, 100 people going. Only

15 five, 10 were allowed to get in, so that they would finish their

16 business. Sometimes they were just forbidden completely. You know,

17 for instance, nobody was there in those offices so you could not go

18 there or it was lunch time, so simply ----

19 Q. Really, we are talking about inmates when you said "special

20 permission", is that not so?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When did you arrive at Trnopolje?

23 A. I arrived in the Trnopolje camp nine days after which I spent in

24 Keraterm.

25 Q. You were in Keraterm nine or 10 days?

Page 5153

1 A. Nine days.

2 Q. Nine days?

3 A. Tenth day, on the tenth day, yes, on the tenth day, I was already in

4 Trnopolje.

5 Q. Then you stayed at Trnopolje 17 to 19 days?

6 A. I stayed in Trnopolje 18 to 19 days and I got a pass to go to Donja

7 Puharska.

8 Q. You testified you saw Mr. Tadic at Trnopolje but when was that? How

9 long after you had arrived at Trnopolje?

10 A. I do not know. The data, the date I do not know. It is my opinion

11 that it was the morning, that it was a Wednesday, but dates are so

12 confused that I did not know who I was. I knew Dusan as a neighbour

13 and I did not know many younger people, but I remember him as the

14 first door neighbour, and maybe also he is in my memory also because,

15 not Mr. Tadic, but his father, I remember him well.

16 Q. OK, thank you.

17 A. So through him I knew him as well.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, do you have additional questions?

19 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

21 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to the witness being

23 permanently excused?

24 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you are permanently excused. That means that

Page 5154

1 you may leave. You, however, should remain in your seat until the

2 Judges leave and then we will make the necessary arrangements so that

3 you may leave. Thank you so much for coming.

4 We will stand in recess for ----

5 THE WITNESS: A question, I am sorry, a request? Since you thanked me, I

6 also want to thank the entire Tribunal, and I wish that the Tribunal

7 fulfils everything that it has set out to do. I do not want to give

8 pain to anybody, including this Dule, so I think that I have spoken

9 the truth.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you so. We will stand in recess for 20

11 minutes.

12 (11.35 a.m.)

13 (Short Adjournment)

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, will you call the next witness?

15 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, thank you. Before I call the next witness,

16 I wanted to advise the Court (and also before the Court puts on its

17 earphones) that the next speaker, although a native speaker of the

18 Bosnian language, will be testifying in English, so his comprehension

19 and speaking skills, although not flawless, are certainly sufficiently

20 to permit him and probably enhance communication and, more

21 importantly, I think, the effect of getting information simultaneously

22 or in staggered form in two languages one understands is very, very

23 difficult. So this is a preferable approach, I believe. The next

24 witness is Emsud Velic.

25 EMSUD VELIC, called.

Page 5155

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take the oath that is being handed to

2 you?

3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

4 truth and nothing but the truth.

5 (The witness was sworn)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You will put your, turn on the microphone there,

7 please. You may be seated. Thank you, sir. We heard you.

8 Examined by MR. TIEGER

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

11 Q. Sir, what is your name?

12 A. Emsud Velic.

13 Q. How old are you?

14 A. 24 years old.

15 Q. Were you born in?

16 A. In a village called Kevljani.

17 Q. Where is Kevljani located relative to the town of Kozarac?

18 A. About six kilometres.

19 Q. Were you raised in Kevljani?

20 A. Yes, I was.

21 Q. Are you a Bosnian Muslim?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. Where did you go to school?

24 A. First four years I went to the local school in Kevljani, next four

25 years in Omarska and the last three years in Prijedor.

Page 5156

1 Q. In March 1991, did you begin your basic military service with the

2 JNA?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Mr. Velic, during the time you were growing up, how did the young

5 men of the area, Muslims, Serbs and Croats, feel about the prospect of

6 military service?

7 A. They felt very good. I mean, to be in the army at that time before

8 the war, you know, it was like feeling you are very proud to go into

9 the army. It is, you know, when you go to the army and you have your

10 duty and everything, you felt when you came back you felt as you are,

11 you know, grown up and that you are really a man afterwards. A lot of

12 people, I mean, which could not go because either they were disabled

13 or sick, you know, sometimes they felt lesser men than they are

14 supposed to be.

15 Q. When you began your military service, where were you sent? Where did

16 you serve?

17 A. They sent me in Slovenia in a town called Crnomelj.

18 Q. Around the beginning of June were you assigned to guard an ammunition

19 depot?

20 A. Yes, I was.

21 Q. Was that right around the time of the beginning of the war in

22 Slovenia?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. After the conflict began, was your unit cut off by Slovenian troops?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5157

1 Q. How long was your unit cut off in this fashion?

2 A. About five days or a week, something like that.

3 Q. Did your unit finally surrender?

4 A. Yes, we did.

5 Q. When you surrendered, how were you and the others treated by

6 Slovenian troops?

7 A. We were treated very well. I mean, really, we did not know what to

8 expect when we were going down to the road to meet them, but really

9 they were friendly to all of us. They did not do any harm to us,

10 nothing. They gave us food, drinks, everything. Then they took us to

11 the town, gave us the phone to call the family and relatives that we

12 are OK, you know, that they can come to pick us up, to go home and,

13 you know, we were really treated very well.

14 Q. Did they make any distinction between which soldiers were Muslim,

15 Serb, Croat?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did the Red Cross assist in arranging for members of your unit to

18 return home?

19 A. Yes, they did.

20 Q. After you returned home were you then ordered to report to the

21 military barracks in Prijedor?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. What assignment did you later receive?

24 A. Later on, maybe 20, 25 days after spending in Prijedor, they assigned

25 me to the ammunition depot in a town called Ustikolina near Foca.

Page 5158

1 Q. When was your basic military service due to be completed?

2 A. In March 1992.

3 Q. Did you leave the army before the completion of your basic service?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. When did you leave?

6 A. On December 21st 1991.

7 Q. Mr. Velic, why did you leave the service before the completion of

8 your military obligation?

9 A. Well, while I was there in Ustikolina a lot of things were going on.

10 I mean, the war was already starting in Croatia. Then I was guarding

11 the ammunition depot in that town. So almost every night we, you

12 know, between eight or 10 trailers coming every night and we were

13 loading them with the munition, grenades and all kinds of firearms,

14 you know. When we were loading those trucks, I mean, the drivers or

15 whoever told me that goes, it goes to Dubrovnik, at that time,

16 Vukovar, and I really did not feel good being part of that, you know,

17 because I know every case that I put in that truck is going either

18 kill someone or destroy something. I really did not want to be any

19 part of that.

20 Q. Was there any expression of nationalistic sentiment in the army at

21 that time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who did you hear that from and what sorts of things were expressed?

24 A. I heard most from reservists from Serbia and Montenegro who were

25 coming to that base. It was just tough for them before they go to

Page 5159

1 either Vukovar or Dubrovnik or wherever they are assigned to go and,

2 you know, when they were coming, they were acting like they own

3 everything there, you know. So they were starting telling, you know,

4 how they, where they go, what they are going to do to destroy, to

5 kill, to burn, to liberate Croatia and, you know, to make it part of

6 Serbia.

7 Q. Was that sentiment and those expressions hidden or open?

8 A. Open. They felt very strong about it. I mean, they were not afraid

9 of anything at that time because it was too many of them, you know,

10 and its army, and they really felt army is there, so .....

11 Q. Were soldiers allowed to dress or wear their hair in different ways

12 from the traditional army in order to express nationalistic

13 identification?

14 A. Yes, especially when the war started and especially somewhere around

15 one month before I left the army.

16 Q. How was that? In what ways did they dress or look different from the

17 typical army?

18 A. I mean, when you are in a typical army, you always have to be clean

19 shaved every morning, hair cut, you know, like in the army, short,

20 dress properly, you know, not to get loose, to put your shirt, you

21 know, to put on your pants or something like that. No, you really

22 have to be clean and tidy, like you have to give the example to other

23 people how to be. At that time really they really did not care about

24 that any more. They were just -- I mean, especially the Serbian

25 soldiers, they really felt very, very free and very strong, especially

Page 5160

1 when those reservists came, you know. So, really, they act like one

2 of them. They wanted to be one of them.

3 Q. Was there any particular look that some people adopted?

4 A. Excuse me?

5 Q. Any particular style or look that some people adopted?

6 A. I mean, you know, sometimes when those reservists come there, either

7 they are drunk, you know, and they would start singing those songs.

8 They joined them in singing with them, you know, and then they would

9 totally isolate us. You know, we were just separate from them. We

10 did not -- we were allowed to go, you know, to be with them when you

11 wanted to go there, but, you know, we were just isolated, you know,

12 and keep quiet because you are afraid to say something if they, you

13 know, even though at that time the war was not in Bosnia at that time,

14 but still we were afraid, you know, to say who we were.

15 Q. When you say singing those songs, do you mean Serbian nationalist

16 songs?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After you left the army did you return to Kevljani?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Were you living at home with your family?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Were you doing work around the village?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you also going out a lot?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 5161

1 Q. Where were you spending most of your time when you went out?

2 A. In Kozarac.

3 Q. Mr. Velic, in the time before you went to the army did you know Dule

4 Tadic?

5 A. Yes, not personally but just by seeing him and knowing who he is.

6 Q. Even before you knew who he was, had you heard of him?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Why had you heard of him?

9 A. Because he was in -- he was in some kind of martial art competition,

10 and you could hear of other people talking about him, specially when

11 you go in Kozarac, even though at the time I did not met him

12 personally. I mean, I did not know his face, but I could hear the

13 stories he was good at those -- in those competition, you know, doing

14 well and, sort of, he was some kind of local celebrity.

15 Q. How did you come to learn who he was and become familiar with his

16 face?

17 A. When he opened a bar in Kozarac.

18 Q. After that bar was opened did you go there?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Any particular reason?

21 A. Well, first, the first time just, you know, when something new

22 opened, just you go there to check it out because it is new. You are

23 interested. You want to see what is going on there, how is it, who is

24 down there, you know.

25 Q. After you went there, did you become interested in meeting the owner

Page 5162

1 or seeing the owner?

2 A. Not really meeting him, but just to see who he is, you know, because

3 I heard of him before. I never see him, you know, face to face.

4 Q. After you went to the bar did it increase your interest in seeing him

5 face to face?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Why was that?

8 A. I mean, because now he owns the bar so the bar, there is more chance

9 for me to see him personally because I assumed -- I mean, he was the

10 owner so he is going to be there, so that is the chance. I went in

11 there. You know, there were some of my friends, and first time when I

12 see him, I mean, I asked my friends whether they knew him, how he

13 looked. You know, "Is that him?" or "Is that him?" until he did not

14 show up and they told me, "That is him".

15 Q. Did you see anything in the bar which had anything to do with his

16 martial arts success or that let people know who the owner of the bar

17 was?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. What was that or what sorts of things were those?

20 A. On the walls, on the shelves, there were trophies, medals, some kind

21 of, you know, pictures of him fighting with someone in competition and

22 some from newspapers, some articles.

23 Q. So did that increase the impression that he was a local celebrity

24 whom you were interested in?

25 A. For me, yes, I mean, not many people around there were, you know,

Page 5163

1 known in other communities than their own, you know.

2 Q. All right. After the first time that you saw him in the bar, did you

3 continue to see him in the bar on more occasions until the time you

4 went to the army?

5 A. Yes, almost every time when I went there before I went to the army, I

6 saw him, you know, sometimes but I mean not all the time. You know,

7 either he is going to be at the bar or walk out from the kitchen or

8 when I was coming in, I always check everything who is in there

9 because that is the kind of normal day, when you go into the

10 restaurant or the bar, you first go through the restaurant or bar to

11 check who is there, you know, because most of the time either of your

12 friends, someone whom you knew. So if there is there someone, you

13 will sit with them. Then I saw him in that small, separate portion of

14 the bar sitting there with someone.

15 Q. So the bar had a small separated portion?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. By the time you left to do your military service, were you familiar

18 with who Dule Tadic was?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. When you returned to the area after leaving the army and were going

21 out to Kozarac a lot, did you continue to go to the bar?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. What was the name of that bar?

24 A. "Nipon".

25 Q. Did you go there as often as you had before, less often or more often

Page 5164

1 than in the past?

2 A. More often than in the past.

3 Q. How often were you in the Nipon from the time you returned to

4 Kevljani and the Kozarac area until the war broke out?

5 A. In the Nipon I was on Saturdays, almost every Saturday there,

6 spending there between an hour and two hours, sometimes two hours,

7 sometimes one hour. But Saturdays almost every night, or on

8 Wednesdays and Fridays, not exactly every Wednesday or Friday, but

9 sometimes between half an hour and an hour.

10 Q. Did Mr. Tadic continue to be around the bar doing the things that you

11 described him doing before?

12 A. Yes, he did.

13 Q. Mr. Velic, let me direct your attention now to the beginning of the

14 attack on the Kozarac area on May 24th. Where were you when the

15 attack began?

16 A. In my village, that is my home.

17 Q. What was the reaction in Kevljani when the shelling began?

18 A. Chaos, panic, people running through the village. You know, women

19 trying to find their children because, like in every village, they

20 were playing that day, you know. We really did not expect that is

21 going to happen. So, I mean, just total panic in the village.

22 Q. Did you make any efforts to contact anyone outside the area?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. What did you try to do?

25 A. I was trying to reach one man in Prijedor, to ask him, you know,

Page 5165

1 what is going on. Maybe they know better than us. But soon I pick up

2 the phone. I could just hear the people talking on the phone. I do

3 not know how, but when I pick up the phone and before I start dialling

4 the numbers, I hear someone on the phone talking already. I do not

5 know somehow but I get the conversation between two people, you know,

6 and toward them, you know, one man was saying, you know, "What are you

7 doing? I mean, you are shelling them but you are also shelling us".

8 The other man told him, "Do not worry, everything is under control. We

9 are going to, you know, do this fast and very quick. Everything is

10 going to be OK". Then I tried again to contact someone but I could

11 not.

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, perhaps it would be useful if we asked for

13 Exhibit 79 and have the witness point out exactly where his village

14 is? 79.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Where his village is?

16 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, that would be helpful. Tell us how far. I

18 gather it is very, very, very close to Kozarac.

19 MR. TIEGER: I think the witness indicated six kilometres but I will ask

20 him again.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Six kilometres? Good.

22 MR. TIEGER: Sir, if you could take a moment and orient yourself with that

23 map and then we will -----

24 A. Here.

25 Q. If that could be placed on the overhead projector and perhaps you

Page 5166

1 could indicate with the pointer?

2 A. (The witness indicated).

3 Q. That is the village of Kevljani?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If we could move back a bit, perhaps could you also indicate where

6 Kozarac is?

7 A. (The witness indicated).

8 Q. Just for general orientation purposes, does this map show us where

9 Prijedor is?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you point that out?

12 A. [The witness indicated].

13 Q. Thank you, sir. After the initial chaos and panic, was a decision

14 made by the people in the village about what to do or where to go?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was decided?

17 A. We decided to go in nearby river and hide.

18 Q. Did most of the villagers do so?

19 A. Yes, most of them, the majority of people did but some people left in

20 the village -- stayed in the village.

21 Q. Did the people stay give any reasons for staying?

22 A. I know only for three people, myself, who stayed, maybe more stayed,

23 but for one of them, it was my relative and my first neighbour was

24 World War II veteran, and he just told us, you know, he is not going.

25 He wants, if something happen, he wants to die in front of his house

Page 5167

1 because he has already been through that once, and for him going

2 somewhere to hide, it does not make any difference.

3 Q. You say the villagers decided to go to the river. How high was the

4 river at this time?

5 A. You mean the water?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. It was not much water. In fact, it was a very small river and, you

8 know, when it is spring or summer sometimes almost there is none of

9 it, but just a little, not much.

10 Q. Had there been some talk about the possibility of going to the nearby

11 woods?

12 A. Yes, there was.

13 Q. Was that one of the logical possibilities for shelter?

14 A. Yes. It was, but someone figured out that the river was a better

15 place to hide than those woods, and in the end it really was a better

16 place than those woods.

17 Q. How long did the shelling last after you and the other villagers fled

18 to the river?

19 A. All day and all night, but not constantly. You know, they would

20 shell us for 15 and 20 minutes and then they will stop, and then will,

21 you know, they start firing bullets from all different kind of

22 calibres, calibres of weapons. You know, you see through the air

23 those trace of bullets. You could see them, you know, going through

24 the leaves or the trees. Then they will stop shelling and again start

25 shelling and on and on.

Page 5168

1 Q. You had mentioned that the possibility of going to the forest for

2 shelter was considered but rejected. In the morning, were you able to

3 see what would have happened to the villagers if they had, in fact,

4 sought shelter in the woods?

5 A. Yes, most of us would be killed if we were there.

6 Q. Why was that?

7 A. Because most of the shells fell in that forest.

8 Q. Was there any reason, as far as you know, to shell the forest other

9 than the possibility that the villagers might be there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. That next morning, did you and the other villagers of Kevljani

12 receive information about what to do?

13 A. Yes, we did. One of my friends, he had a small radio, and he heard

14 on the radio station from Prijedor that we are supposed to surrender

15 by 10 o'clock or they are going to come to the village and, you know,

16 destroy everything and kill everyone in sight.

17 Q. Did the villagers then decide to surrender?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How did you and the others indicate that you were surrendering?

20 A. Well, first some put their white flag on the mosque, and then two men

21 which I know, they also took a white flag and from the place where we

22 were, they were going to the school where the Serbian Army or whoever

23 was there.

24 Q. Did these people who went to meet with representatives of the Serb

25 army return to where the villagers were and tell you what the

Page 5169

1 villagers were supposed to do?

2 A. Yes, they did. They returned and told us that we are supposed to go,

3 all of us, to that place, where it was that primary school, and they

4 are going to meet us there, I mean, they are going to wait up there

5 for us.

6 Q. When you and the other villagers arrived at the school, the area of

7 the school in the village, what did you see?

8 A. When we arrived at that area, I mean, the school, it was partially

9 destroyed by shell, you know, from tank grenade, they are firing that.

10 The house on the right side was also destroyed, and around us, around

11 that area, was Serbian soldiers and the road we were going to that

12 school was also, you know, surrounded by the Serbian soldiers.

13 Q. What were the Serbian soldiers wearing?

14 A. Some of them were wearing those regular SMB uniforms. Some of them

15 were wearing those camouflage uniforms.

16 Q. Did you recognise any of the Serbian soldiers who were there, either

17 by name or by face?

18 A. I recognised two because I know them before, they were going with me

19 in school, and around 10 or 12 of them I recognised just by their

20 face, I had seen before.

21 Q. Were there some soldiers whom you did not recognise?

22 A. Yes, there were. When we were taken to the field and we sat down,

23 you know, they were going through where we were sitting, you know, and

24 we could hear them talking and some of them were talking with a

25 Serbian dialect which was really unusual for -- and I did not know and

Page 5170

1 I never saw him before that, and with that dialect which is fairly

2 unusual in that area, because even Serbs they are talking the same way

3 I did.

4 Q. Did you recognise the leader of this group of Serbian soldiers?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Who was that and where was he from?

7 A. I did not know his full name. I just know him by his nickname Cigo

8 and he is either from Omarska or surrounding village around Omarska.

9 I do not know really.

10 Q. Did the villagers of Kevljani surrender any weapons as they went to

11 the school?

12 A. Yes, they did.

13 Q. As far as you know, did every villager who had a weapon surrender it?

14 A. Yes, they did.

15 Q. About how many weapons were collected and what kind of weapons were

16 they?

17 A. It was maybe around 40 weapons, a few of them, those automatic guns,

18 a few of them also semi-automatic, long, you know, yes,

19 semi-automatic, and most of the weapons were some kind of home-made, I

20 mean, the villagers made themselves which was very dangerous even to

21 use because you never know if you fired that if you are going to blow

22 up your hand or it is really going to work.

23 Q. Were the Serb forces looking for particular people?

24 A. Yes, they did.

25 Q. How did they go about calling for particular people?

Page 5171

1 A. Well, Cigo, he came in front of all of us, and he had a list in front

2 of him and he was reading the names. For most of those people at that

3 time, they worked in Croatia. You know, they were working there. So,

4 around nine or 10 of them were there at that time and they took them.

5 Q. Where did they take them and could you tell what happened to them

6 after they were taken there?

7 A. They took them inside the school, and when they got in you could just

8 hear screaming and yelling died away. So, I do not know if they

9 scream for fun or they were beaten.

10 Q. Was it your impression, based on what you were hearing at the time,

11 that these people were being beaten?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was the Serbian media present?

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. What were they doing? Were they filming?

16 A. Yes, they were filming us sitting there in that field and, you know,

17 they were just saying another religious liberator from Muslim

18 extremists.

19 Q. So far as you knew, were there were any Muslim extremists in your

20 village?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were some of the villagers of Kevljani taken by Serbian forces to the

23 houses of the village?

24 A. Yes, they were. They told us, Cigo told us because he was in charge

25 so he was saying everything what to do, they are going to take some of

Page 5172

1 the people with their patrol and they are going to go inside the

2 village and check out the house and everything, are there any more

3 weapons or anyone else in there.

4 Q. After that process was completed what did Cigo tell the villagers of

5 Kevljani?

6 A. He told us that everything is OK, that we can go home now, that

7 nothing is going to happen to us, we are free and that is it, and we

8 went home.

9 Q. About what time of the day was that that you returned home?

10 A. Around 6 o'clock in the afternoon.

11 Q. Did the villagers go back to their homes?

12 A. Yes, they did.

13 Q. Did they stay in their individual homes?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Where did people gather?

16 A. In all sorts of different parts of the village. You know, for

17 example, five or six family will gather in one house, one really

18 strong house, you know, which had a basement or something, because

19 people did not believe, they were still afraid that it can happen

20 again.

21 Q. Despite the fact that Cigo had said you could go home and you were

22 free and everything would be OK?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When darkness fell, did anything happen?

25 A. Yes, shelling started again.

Page 5173

1 Q. Where as the shelling directed?

2 A. To the village.

3 Q. Did the villagers attempt to flee this time?

4 A. No, because, I mean, if you tried to do that, I mean, you do not know

5 if you are going to get killed because there was no time to flee to

6 that river again, because it just started immediately, they did not

7 stop. So it was really, I mean, it was really risky to go outside and

8 try to reach to that nearby river.

9 Q. In large part, had the villagers selected, successfully selected

10 strong homes to seek shelter and the homes in which the villagers were

11 gathered, did they withstand the shelling?

12 A. Yes, they did.

13 Q. The next morning were there more instructions from the Serb forces

14 about what the villagers should do?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What were you told?

17 A. They told us to gather our small basic things to take with us and

18 that we are supposed to go to the same place as day before to that

19 school, that buses were going to come and take us to Prijedor/Banja

20 Luka or whatever, if we had relatives that we can stay there for a

21 couple of days until they again clean the village from Muslim

22 extremists.

23 Q. Did all the villagers gather to await the arrival of the buses and

24 board the buses?

25 A. Yes, almost all, but I know two or three people left in the village,

Page 5174

1 but those people were sort of ensured from Serbian, you know, people

2 that nothing is going to happen to them.

3 Q. Was there anyone who had experience in a previous war who responded

4 in a different way?

5 A. Yes. The morning, that morning when they shelled the village, in the

6 early morning of that day, also one of the World War II veterans, he

7 hanged himself in front of his house because he told his sons that,

8 you know, even though this is happening and even though they are

9 saying we should go there, I mean, I know what is going to happen, I

10 have been there once and I do not want to go through that same thing

11 one more time. He just hung himself.

12 Q. How many buses came to take the villagers?

13 A. They were coming in three or four buses, you know, some people, then

14 coming back again or others.

15 Q. So three to four buses would come, load up people, bring them to

16 Prijedor and then return to pick up others?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you boarded one of the buses, where did it take you and the

19 people you were with?

20 A. They took us first to Prijedor but they did not take the highway,

21 they took the old road. I know just one village, Tomasica, and all

22 the rest of them. We came to Prijedor in the front of the sports

23 hall.

24 Q. When you went through the old road on the way to Prijedor did you

25 pass Serb villages?

Page 5175

1 A. Yes, we did and the people were standing outside, you know, cursing

2 at us, throwing some stuff at us.

3 Q. After you arrived at the sports hall in Prijedor, were men separated

4 from women and children?

5 A. Yes, they were.

6 Q. What ages of males were separated?

7 A. From 15 to 60, male, were separated from other people.

8 Q. Where were you and the other men who were separated from the women

9 and children then taken?

10 A. To Brezicani.

11 Q. Is that Brezicani?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I am not sure if the same map we referred to earlier will show us

14 where Brezicani is, but if we can look at it. Let me ask you, first,

15 generally if Brezicani is located in the general area of Hambarine, so

16 that one would starting from the Kozarac area or Kevljani area go past

17 Prijedor to get to Brezicani?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE VOHRAH: It is north-west on the map.

20 MR. TIEGER: I think that would be right. Miss Sutherland who has looked

21 at this particular Exhibit advises me that she is not sure it is on

22 that map and thinks it might be 280.

23 JUDGE VOHRAH: B-R-E-Z-I-C-A-N-I.

24 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is north-west 79.

Page 5176

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have found it. The Judges have found it. Thank

2 you. We have been looking at these maps for several months now, not

3 all of them, so we are familiar with the Exhibits. Thank you.

4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. [To the witness]: About what time

5 did your group arrive at Brezicani?

6 A. It was already dark, but the beginning of the dark or night fall.

7 Q. Where in Brezicani were you taken?

8 A. To one of those probably sports hall again.

9 Q. Where guards or soldiers waiting when you arrived?

10 A. Yes, they were.

11 Q. How were they positioned as you and the others left the bus?

12 A. When we were leaving the bus towards the corridor, you know, from

13 both sides and in front of the entrance of the hall were two small

14 flash lights, I mean big flash lights, you know, and they were just

15 towards us, to our faces. When we were leaving they were on both

16 sides, when we leave the bus we were supposed to put our hands behind

17 the head and run to the entrance into the hall. You know, they were

18 just showing us the way, you know, beating, kicking, whatever they had

19 in their hands, with the boots or with the hands, but, you know, to

20 the hall.

21 Q. Were men from the villages around Kevljani already in the hall?

22 A. Yes, they were.

23 Q. What was the nationality of those men?

24 A. Muslims.

25 Q. When you entered were those men in a particular position?

Page 5177

1 A. Yes, they were. They were facing to the back wall on their knees,

2 like sort of in our religion when you are praying, but only with the

3 hands also behind their head.

4 Q. Were you and the others who had just arrived also ordered to take

5 that position?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did people continue to arrive during the night?

8 A. Yes, they did.

9 Q. How long did you stay in that hall?

10 A. In that hall?

11 Q. Or in Brezicani?

12 A. That night and the following day and again until the midnight next

13 day.

14 Q. At or around midnight were you again ordered to board buses?

15 A. Yes, we were.

16 Q. What was the procedure for boarding the buses?

17 A. The same way as getting in that hall, the same procedure, hurried

18 out, beating until you get in the bus.

19 Q. After you boarded the buses where were you taken?

20 A. They took us in front of Keraterm in Prijedor, and at that time there

21 were already, I do not know how many, a lot of buses were already

22 there filled with people. We just joined them and we started moving.

23 At that time I did not know where we were going.

24 Q. Eventually where did you end up?

25 A. In mine in Omarska.

Page 5178

1 Q. Did you arrive there at night?

2 A. Yes, we did.

3 Q. What was happening as you arrived in Omarska?

4 A. When my bus arrived, when we arrived we stopped and we did not leave

5 the bus right away. From outside you could hear screaming, yelling,

6 some occasionally shots, firing, I do not know to where or to whom.

7 Then they told us to leave the buses.

8 Q. Were Serb forces waiting when you got off the bus?

9 A. Yes, they were.

10 Q. Did you recognise any of those Serb forces?

11 A. I recognised again Cigo was there and his army, I mean, the people

12 who were with him in Kevljani when we were captured.

13 Q. Were those soldiers positioned in any particular way as you and

14 others got off bus?

15 A. Of course. I mean they were also in the same way, in the corridor,

16 just to the entrance to the building and all the way to my room.

17 Q. Into what building were you taken?

18 A. Into the big building, this one here.

19 Q. If I can ask you to get up and use the pointer which is immediately

20 to your right and show us the part of the building into which you were

21 taken after you arrived?

22 A. OK. OK this is the main entrance. I turned left to upstairs through

23 the hall into this ----

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He needs to speak into that microphone so that the

25 interpreters can hear. They are translating for Mr. Tadic.

Page 5179

1 THE WITNESS: I entered through this door here. Then turned left upstairs

2 through the hall into the last room in the back, the big one on the

3 end.

4 MR. TIEGER: So you enter that main entrance and then take the first

5 stairway immediately to the left, and then once upstairs turn left in

6 the hallway and down to the last room at the end?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you see a number written on the floor of that room?

9 A. B1.

10 Q. Thank you. As long as you are up, if we could get some assistance in

11 removing the upper level of the model. Sir, would you later be held

12 in another room in the hangar building?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. OK. Can you show us where that room was located?

15 A. [The witness indicated on the model]. Again through the main

16 entrance, the second door, then turned right here and all the way

17 until the room which is numbered A17.

18 Q. OK. Thank you very much. You can take your seat again. How many

19 people were collected in the room at the far left end of the upstairs,

20 in the far left end of the hangar building?

21 A. Someone was trying to count the people, and I really do not remember

22 the exact number, but I think somewhere 400 to 500 people.

23 Q. What nationality were those people?

24 A. Muslims the majority of them. I do not know if there were some

25 Croats or other people, but the majority of the people were Muslims.

Page 5180

1 Q. Did you receive any food from camp authorities after your arrival?

2 A. Not for first three days.

3 Q. Did interrogations of prisoners begin?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you ultimately called for interrogation?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. Do you know how long after you arrived in camp that was?

8 A. Maybe 15 or 20 days.

9 Q. After your interrogation where were you then held?

10 A. Then they took me to that room I already showed, downstairs to A17 if

11 I remember.

12 Q. Is that the last room in the hangar in which prisoners were held?

13 A. Yes. It is not the last room but the last room where prisoners were.

14 Q. Before you get to that room is there a room with a glass door which

15 you can enter to get to another stairway?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you remain in Omarska until the main prisoner population was

18 transferred to Manjaca or Trnopolje?

19 A. Yes, I remained there.

20 Q. Shortly before the main group of prisoners was transferred to Manjaca

21 in Trnopolje, were you moved from room A17?

22 A. Yes, I was. Five days before the majority of people left they sent

23 me on the same ground floor in that hangar area. You do not exit the

24 building from the ground floor. You just move more you up and that

25 was the area where people were in.

Page 5181

1 Q. On the floor of the ----

2 A. On the floor of the hangar area.

3 Q. --- of the hangar building itself. Can you show us generally where

4 that area was, please? Again if you are going to speak you will have

5 to remember to talk in the area of the microphone.

6 A. The area was around here, A1. I was sleeping, you know, facing the

7 wall, this wall here, with everyone.

8 Q. OK. That was an area that had been wired in to accommodate

9 prisoners?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. After that when the main group of prisoners left, were you

12 transferred for a brief time to another room?

13 A. Yes. That day when they when the majority of people left that day,

14 they took us, 173 people, and put us in what we called the garage and

15 that is the room. We have to -- this is the room.

16 Q. Is that a small garage area ----

17 A. Yes, very, very small.

18 Q. --- in the restaurant building. How many prisoners were held in that

19 room when you were there?

20 A. 173.

21 Q. Was that the group of people who remained in camp after the main

22 prisoner population left?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you then moved from that room?

25 A. Yes, I was.

Page 5182

1 Q. Where were you held thereafter until you left the camp?

2 A. In this room here just inside the garage, the big room, which is A5

3 or A4. A big room with wash rooms and the one hall down there.

4 Q. I notice you are trying to read the numbers by looking through the

5 model before its top portion is removed. Perhaps it would be easier

6 if we took the top portion off so you can see the room in which you

7 were held, and also the upper floor too, please.

8 A. This was the main area where we were staying.

9 Q. Is there a number in that main area?

10 A. A9.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you talk into the microphone?

12 THE WITNESS: A9.

13 MR. TIEGER: I am sorry, they may not have picked up what you just said.

14 That was the main area where you were staying?

15 A. Yes, that part.

16 Q. You can resume your seat. Thank you. Were you and the other

17 prisoners who were kept behind in Omarska after the main group of

18 prisoners had been transferred, told that journalists would be coming

19 to camp?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did the camp authorities instruct you what to say to those

22 journalists?

23 A. Yes, they did.

24 Q. What did they tell you to say in response to what kinds of

25 questions?

Page 5183

1 A. Well, they asked you, for example, how long are you here, you are

2 supposed to say, "not more than 15 days". They asked you how you have

3 been fed, say, "four times a week". Is there any beating? "No." How

4 do they treat you? "Very good." The reason why you are here? I do

5 not remember that, either because of Muslim extremists or because I am

6 a Muslim extremist.

7 Q. You knew at the time but you are not sure what the correct answer you

8 were instructed to give by the camp authorities is now?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were your rations of food increased?

11 A. Yes, much, much better.

12 Q. Were you and the other prisoners who remained behind ordered to clean

13 up the camp?

14 A. Yes, we did.

15 Q. What areas were cleaned up?

16 A. Almost all areas where the prisoners were kept.

17 Q. During that process did you have an opportunity to go into the white

18 house?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you went into the white house what did you see? What was its

21 condition?

22 A. We were ordered to put the lockers inside the white house. So when we

23 were taking them inside near to the floor in the corners on the walls

24 you could see, you could see the piece of the skin, the hairs, you

25 know, all blood somewhere just on the doors, and it was very hard to

Page 5184

1 clean or to reach that or the first time a good job of cleaning it.

2 Q. Had the white house already been partially cleaned by that time?

3 A. Yes, partially it was cleaned.

4 Q. Those were parts of the white house that had not been completely

5 cleaned in the attempt to do so?

6 A. Yes, and in that area we were putting those lockers.

7 Q. Mr. Velic, you indicated to us what the -- incidentally, do you

8 recall which camp authorities instructed you and the others what to

9 say to the journalists?

10 A. I do not remember which one of them were.

11 Q. Do you recall ----

12 A. Probably, you know, Zeljko Meakic the nearest charge there, but

13 really I do not recall who said that.

14 Q. What was Zeljko Meakic's position in the camp?

15 A. For my knowing, he was sort of commandant of that camp.

16 Q. Do you know what he did before the war?

17 A. Yes, he was a policeman in Omarska.

18 Q. You indicated to us what the camp authorities instructed you to say

19 to journalists about conditions in the camp. Can you describe for us

20 what in fact conditions were like in Omarska while you were there?

21 A. I mean, I cannot say terrible. You cannot really find a word for it,

22 for those conditions. You know, every day, every night in that camp

23 it was constantly beating, beating, killing. You could always hear the

24 screaming, the beating. Wherever you go they beat. Even if you go,

25 if you are lucky to get some meal that day, they were taking the

Page 5185

1 people always out, taking them out, they would never come back. They

2 would take the people from the room for the beating, then put him back

3 in and tell him, for example, if he does not collect between us five

4 or one thousand deutschemarks, that they are going to kill him, you

5 know. They were doing that for a long time until the people ran out

6 of the money. So then they started asking for the watches, for the,

7 you know, if someone had a good jacket or something good. Constantly,

8 every specially nights, nights were the worst when they were coming in

9 and just open the door and you were just praying that they do not call

10 your name out because if they call someone at night no one of those

11 people ever came back.

12 Q. What were hygiene conditions like?

13 A. Well, I mean, I can tell just for that time I never had a shower,

14 brush my teeth or nothing. You had those lice, lice all over you.

15 Q. Did the camp officials ever wash the prisoners?

16 A. Yes, they did. They probably, but most for the fun, they took us,

17 you know, group by group outside. We had to take our clothes off to

18 be naked, and then they would take big hoses with a very, very high

19 pressure of water and pointing to us, and when that water hit you, I

20 mean, you immediately fell, you could not get up. It was like someone

21 really beating you very hard with that water, because at that time

22 myself, I was really very weak. I lost weight. I did not have any

23 movement, that much movement, you know, and my physical condition was

24 terrible.

25 Q. When you say they probably did it for fun, was that amusement for the

Page 5186

1 guards?

2 A. Yes, they were just laughing because you cannot clean with that.

3 They were just pointing those hoses in a group of 20 people, and, you

4 know, they do not really -- you do not have time nothing to do. You

5 just put your head in front of that water just kind of to save

6 yourself from the hit.

7 Q. Were particular groups or categories of prisoners at Omarska targeted

8 for beating or murder?

9 A. Yes, all those intellectuals or doctors, engineers, what we called at

10 that time smart people. You know, people known for what they were

11 before the war, had degrees or teachers, professors, they were

12 targeted the most.

13 Q. Did you ever learn, for example, what happened to the head of the SDA

14 in Prijedor?

15 A. Yes, I did. The time when I was in the room upstairs, in the last

16 room upstairs, somewhere in the middle of the night I really had to go

17 to the wash room. So I started knocking to the door and begging and

18 begging them to open the door. I really wanted to. I was waiting

19 there. I really had to go. So I was knocking on the door and begging

20 and begging them for half an hour until they let me go. They let me

21 go and then I went there and after that they told me I have to clean

22 that whole wash room afterwards. So I did that and on my way back to

23 the room one of the guards, they took me inside one of their rooms

24 where they were stationed in that area upstairs.

25 Q. That is in the hallway to the left of the first stairway?

Page 5187

1 A. Yes. There they started asking me the questions, what is my name,

2 where I am from, and all that kind of thing. Then suddenly someone

3 mentioned of them that Major Cehajic. I do not know for what reason.

4 I just asked him, you know, is he here, you know. One of them told

5 me: "Don't worry, we take care of him and he is gone." Nothing else.

6 So that can mean a lot, but at that time it did not mean any good

7 when they say that.

8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, this might be an appropriate time.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30.

10 (1.00 p.m.)

11 (Luncheon Adjournment).

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, do you need Miss Sutherland? PRIVATE

13 MR. TIEGER: I believe I will. We can function without her, but if I

14 might just have a moment to locate her?

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: While Mr. Niemann has gone (but you can pass on),

16 the Defence has filed a motion for protective measures, a recent

17 motion for protective measures, and the Prosecutor has responded. The

18 Trial Chamber considers that it would be important if we had a

19 discussion regarding the Defence's motion and the Prosecutor's

20 response. What we are proposing is that we do that after we finish

21 with witness L. Since witness L will be in closed session, then we

22 will just continue. Maybe we will begin with witness L, you think,

23 this afternoon?

24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then finish up tomorrow morning. But, in any case,

Page 5188

1 when we finish with witness L, then we will hear arguments from

2 counsel and comments regarding the motion for protective measures and

3 the response of the Prosecutor.

4 Now we are ready. We said that we were waiting for you, Mr.

5 Niemann. Would you call Mr. Velic?

6 MR. VELIC, recalled.

7 Examined by MR. TIEGER, continued.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Velic, when we broke for the

10 luncheon adjournment you had just described some of the general

11 conditions in Omarska camp during the period of time you were there.

12 While you were in Omarska camp, did you ever see Dule Tadic in camp?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. In what part of Omarska were you when you saw him?

15 A. In the room on the ground floor hangar area, the last room where the

16 people were.

17 Q. About how long after you were transferred to that room was it when

18 you saw Dule Tadic?

19 A. I do not really remember how many days, but it was not that many.

20 Q. Do you remember what time of day it was that you saw him?

21 A. It was afternoon, maybe just shortly afternoon.

22 Q. Before you saw him had you heard anything happening outside your

23 room?

24 A. Yes, I heard some, you know, some kind of a noise like calling the

25 names and something like that, but I did not pay too much attention to

Page 5189

1 that because it was usual stuff there.

2 Q. Do you recall whether or not the door to your room was open or closed

3 at the time those names were being called or that noise was happening

4 from outside?

5 A. They were closed.

6 Q. Do you recall any of the names you heard being called from outside?

7 A. I recall some, I am really not sure, but I think I heard something

8 like some name "Alic" or something like that, but really I am not 100

9 per cent sure that that is exactly the one.

10 Q. Where in your room were you?

11 A. In the back, just beside the wall.

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, might the witness be shown Exhibit 256? Sir,

13 do you recognise that photograph as showing the room you were in?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. May that be placed on the overhead projector, please? Using the

16 pointer, can you show us where you were in the room?

17 A. Right here. [The witness indicated on the photograph].

18 Q. OK. So somewhat toward the right of centre as one looks toward the

19 back of the room from the doorway area?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. OK. As shown in this particular photograph, just to the right of

22 that table or bench shown in the middle of the wall?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In what position were you at that point?

25 A. At that point I was leaning to the wall with my left shoulders or

Page 5190

1 turned -- my face was turned to the wall, to the right.

2 Q. OK. So you were standing up leaning against the wall?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. At some point after you had heard the sounds from outside, did the

5 door to your room open up?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did you do as the door was opening up?

8 A. While the door was opening up, I just turned, turned, you know,

9 straightforward to the door.

10 Q. OK. So with your back to the wall?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. As you did that what did you see?

13 A. While the door was opening and there was one of the guards opening

14 the door, and while he was opening the door he was going with the

15 door, so that he just leaned on the end of the door, and after that

16 Dusko showed up in the front of the door.

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this photograph marked next in order

18 for identification, please? That would be 314. There are copies for

19 the Court.

20 JUDGE STEPHEN: You are going to ask how the door opened, inwards or

21 outwards, are you?

22 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour.

23 [To the witness]: Sir, do you recognise this photograph as

24 depicting your room shown from the inside looking toward the doorway?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 5191

1 MR. TIEGER: I would tender this for admission.

2 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No objection. 314 will be admitted without

4 objection.

5 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Velic, in which direction did the door to this room open?

6 A. Well, the door was opening from outside and to the -- when I am

7 looking to the door from inside, it is going to my right outside.

8 Q. So as we are looking at the door now, the door would open out and

9 toward the right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You saw the guard opening the door and then standing at the end of

12 the door?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Which would be to the right side?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then Dusko Tadic in the doorway?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE VOHRAH: We are not very clear which is the door. There are three

19 partitions there.

20 MR. TIEGER: OK. It may be clearer in the shot which is in the photograph

21 itself which is now on the screen. But, sir, in what portion of that

22 big door area was the actual door which opened? Can you point it out,

23 please?

24 A. Where there is the open space here. [The witness indicated on the

25 photograph].

Page 5192

1 Q. In this photograph can you make out the garage door on the other side

2 of the hangar?

3 A. Yes, from my -- from inside to the left.

4 Q. Yes, as you look through the doorway here, can you see through the

5 open doorway and see the garage door on the other side?

6 A. Yes -- not all but part of it.

7 Q. Can you point to the portion where you see the garage door on the

8 other side?

9 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph] Here.

10 Q. Thank you. The other portion, was that the only portion of the door

11 which opened? Did any other portion of this large rectangular figure,

12 dark rectangular figure, shown in the photograph open up?

13 A. No, for the while I was there, no.

14 Q. So that portion which is opened in this photograph was the doorway

15 through which people entered and exited?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was Dusko Tadic doing in the doorway?

18 A. He shows in the doorway. He, sort of, looked, you know, look all

19 over us and people inside. Then he was looking all over us and, I

20 mean, I did not look at him all the time, you know, and because, you

21 know, I was exposed at that time, because I was standing in the back

22 and I was really exposed because the rest of the people in the back,

23 you know, in the middle, were all sitting. So I was the only one in

24 the back standing so I was really exposed.

25 Q. So when you thought he might be looking at you, you looked down?

Page 5193

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were any names called out?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What name was called out?

5 A. "Jasko". Jasko's name, I do not know. I heard just "Jasko". I do

6 not remember. I do not recall. I do not remember hearing a full

7 name, first name or last name.

8 Q. OK. Were you looking at who called the name or were you looking down

9 at that point?

10 A. I was looking down at that moment and I do not really know who called

11 the name.

12 Q. Did you know where Jasko's position in the room was?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Where was that?

15 A. Well, it was -- I mean, you can really see on this picture the wall

16 and you entered from this extension of the wall. It was somewhere

17 around here. Just there was one table beside the -- beside the wall

18 and he was lying on that table.

19 Q. OK. Can we have Exhibit 257 for a moment, please? [To the

20 witness]: Does Exhibit 257, the photograph you now have, show the

21 portion of the room where the recess was?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would that help you better indicate where Jasko's position in the

24 room was?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5194

1 Q. Can you show us by pointing or explain using the photograph where

2 Jasko was?

3 A. Well, just on the end of the picture here was the beginning of that

4 table and, you know, going all the way. I do not know how long that

5 table was, but maybe one metre or something like that long. So from

6 here up to, you know, I do not know how long was the table, but from

7 here to end of the table ----

8 Q. OK.

9 A. --- beside the wall.

10 Q. When Jasko's name was called, did he respond?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You indicated to us that, as far as you knew, you were the only

13 person standing at the back of the room. Do you know if people were

14 standing in any other part of the room?

15 A. Yes, they were.

16 Q. In what part of the room was that?

17 A. I can show you on just the picture that I saw before.

18 Q. OK, if you would, please?

19 A. A couple of people were standing here, in this area.

20 Q. Were there people sitting in the area near the door as well?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where were they sitting?

23 A. From all over, from the beginning when you enter the door on both

24 sides and everywhere, from here, from here. Everything else was full.

25 Q. But, as far as you knew, you were the only person standing from,

Page 5195

1 basically, the beginning of the room back?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you feel at that time conspicuous and exposed because of that

4 position?

5 A. Of course I did. I mean, because whoever entered, you know, whoever

6 comes to the door and looked inside the room, I would be the most

7 exposed person in that room.

8 Q. How long did it feel like you were standing there?

9 A. Well, it felt really like eternity for me.

10 Q. Did you say to a Tribunal investigator that while you were standing

11 there Dusko Tadic looked at the prisoners for two or three minutes?

12 A. Yes, I remember saying that.

13 Q. Do you think that estimate was right?

14 A. Well, I do not think so. Because, like I said before, I mean, the

15 place where I was and because I was exposed, for me, it really --

16 timing, I really could not time anything because, you know, I was just

17 wondering about myself. For me, maybe it could be 15, 20 seconds but,

18 like I said, it felt like eternity, but the two or three minutes, when

19 I think a little bit more, it is not the right time.

20 Q. As you remained standing back there and continued and looked up and

21 down or looked up now and then, did you continue to see Dusko Tadic in

22 the doorway?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was it risky or dangerous to look up?

25 A. Well, of course it was, but I do not know, maybe the camp make me

Page 5196

1 that, or I do not know what has happened in my head. Even though I

2 know I am exposed and it is very dangerous to watch and, you know, my

3 brain telling me, do not look, some part still -- still part of me

4 still wants to see. You know, even though you are exposed and

5 dangerous, still some part of me still wants to look. So, you know, I

6 was always tried to put my, you know, my eyes down, but always I would

7 just look, put, then look.

8 Q. What would happen next?

9 A. Well, at that time when his name was called and even he did not

10 answer, like I said, I do not know really time. I do not know timing,

11 how much time he spent in the doorway. The door closed but not

12 completely because, I mean, if you close the door completely and it

13 was total silence inside the room, if you close the door completely,

14 you could hear them, you know, shut. But the door was closed

15 partially, I do not know how much, but it was closed partially, not

16 all the way.

17 Q. Could you see Dusko Tadic or the guard at that point?

18 A. Excuse me, I did not hear.

19 Q. Could you hear and see Dusko Tadic and the guard at that point?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you take that opportunity to do anything?

22 A. Yes, I took that opportunity just to slide down, to sit. You know,

23 the same, where I was standing, I just, I would just slide down.

24 Q. So you would blend in with the other prisoners?

25 A. Excuse me?

Page 5197

1 Q. So that you would blend in with the other prisoners?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After you were on the ground, was there calling out again? Was Jasko

4 called out again?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know how long after you slid to the ground it was that he was

7 called out again?

8 A. I do not know the exact time, but not more than a minute or two.

9 Q. Previously, you had been when you were standing, I take it you had an

10 unobstructed view of the doorway?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now as you were seated at the rear of the room, you were behind many

13 other prisoners, is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you still concerned about looking at what was happening?

16 A. Yes, I was but not the same way when I was standing. I mean, first of

17 all, you know, I heard the name, it was not me, so, you know, I felt a

18 little bit more comfortable, then plus I was sitting. So, you know, I

19 was blocked. You know, they could not really see me that much while I

20 was sitting. I was not exposed that much.

21 Q. Was what you were able to see from that position partially dependent

22 on where people were in front of you and what kind of angle you had?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you look intermittently or look now and then after Jasko was

25 called out the second time?

Page 5198

1 A. Yes I did.

2 Q. Did you look to Jasko to see if he was responding this time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did he respond?

5 A. Yes, he did.

6 Q. What did he do?

7 A. Well, he was lying on that table. He just get up and sit on the

8 table. Then he, you know, stand completely. Then he put his jacket

9 on, and then he starts making, you know, his way out through all the

10 maze of people who were sitting down.

11 Q. Do you know why he put his jacket on?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Why?

14 A. Well, I mean, it was summer, so, you know, why? But probably just,

15 you know, he thought that is going to help him if he was beaten again,

16 you know, just not to hurt that much, you know, to have some kind of

17 protection.

18 Q. Had he been beaten before?

19 A. Yes, he was.

20 Q. Is that why he was on table?

21 A. Yes, he was recovering. He was almost recovering because when I got

22 in that room, he was -- when they send me in that room after

23 investigation, he was laying. He could not get up. He was beaten.

24 Q. Did Jasko leave the room?

25 A. Yes, he did.

Page 5199

1 Q. During this time was your attention focused mainly on Jasko?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you able to see or do you recall whether or not the door had

4 been opened all the way again ----

5 A. Well .....

6 Q. -- before Jasko got to the door?

7 A. Yes, before he got to the door, yes.

8 Q. Do you know who opened it?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you first notice the door before he got there or just about the

11 point he was getting there?

12 A. Just about the point he was getting there because, you know, my eyes

13 were going with him, you know. So while he was moving from his table,

14 from his place, to the entrance, you know, I was just following him.

15 Q. Were you staring at him or just looking at him now and then?

16 A. Looking at him, I mean.

17 Q. At some point during this time that Jasko was called out and actually

18 went out of the room, did you see Dusko Tadic again?

19 A. I think I saw him, but I cannot say 100 per cent it was him, because

20 the place where I was, you know, but, you know, I cannot say 100 per

21 cent, but I think I saw him.

22 Q. You did not have the same unobstructed view that you had had when you

23 were standing up?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. As you have indicated, during most of this time you were looking at

Page 5200

1 Jasko rather than the doorway?

2 A. [Witness nods in assent].

3 Q. So the view you caught of the person you thought was Dusko Tadic on

4 this occasion was brief?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Momentary? You were not 100 per cent sure as you were on the

7 previous time that it was him?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recall at what point in the process of Jasko getting out you

10 saw the person you thought was Dusko Tadic? Was it just before Jasko

11 left, as he was leaving the room or after he left the room?

12 A. As he was leaving the room, maybe one, one and a half metre before

13 the door, because in front of him there was people all over the place

14 here and here, you know. So before you enter the door, everyone is

15 sitting here, you have to, sort of, you know, not go straight but,

16 you know, side way to get out.

17 Q. At some point after Jasko left the room was the door then again

18 closed?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After he left the room could you hear sounds coming from outside?

21 A. Not immediately, maybe two minutes afterwards.

22 Q. Then what sorts of sounds did you hear?

23 A. First, the music was put on. Then you could hear the screams and

24 unbelievable screams.

25 Q. Was that the sounds of people being beaten or tortured?

Page 5201

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How long did that go on for?

3 A. The time, I mean, also got really -- I mean it was, I never heard in

4 my life before that kind of screams, especially mixed with that kind

5 of music. For me, it felt, felt, very, very, you know, long, long.

6 So, for me to say timing, how much, I mean, I can say maybe 15, 20

7 minutes, but I am not pretty sure.

8 Q. You say there was music played. Do you recall what kind of music?

9 A. Yes, it was one of, you know, from back from former Yugoslavia, one

10 of the singers, like you call country music but, you know, local

11 music, and song it was called "Let me live".

12 Q. What was Dusko Tadic wearing on this occasion when you saw him?

13 A. He was the wearing the uniform.

14 Q. What kind of uniform, if you recall?

15 A. Those camouflage ones.

16 Q. Do you remember whether or not he had any facial hair?

17 A. I remember, yes, he had some.

18 Q. How much? I mean, can you indicate about how much or could you tell?

19 A. I mean, he had facial hair, full, but I do not mean completely full.

20 I do not how old was that hair, but he had completely from here to

21 all over the face.

22 Q. OK. Any idea how long was it?

23 A. It is very hard to say. I mean, I do not know the people, how much

24 time they need to grow the facial hair. Every person is different.

25 So, by my estimation, it could be two weeks old.

Page 5202

1 Q. Mr. Velic, can you tell us if you see Dusko Tadic here in court

2 today?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Can you point him out, please, and tell us what he is wearing?

5 A. That is the gentleman in the middle with the blue suit, the white

6 t-shirt and the tie.

7 MR. TIEGER: Can the record reflect the identification of the accused,

8 please?

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

10 identified the accused.

11 MR. TIEGER: Nothing further, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

13 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

14 Q. Mr. Velic, the man you say was Dusko Tadic on this day in Omarska,

15 did he look different from the Dusko Tadic that you had seen before

16 the war?

17 A. Not really that I could not recognise him.

18 Q. Had you ever seen him with a beard before?

19 A. I do not recall. I do not remember if I see him or not.

20 Q. If you can think back to when you say you knew him in Kozarac, had

21 you seen him with that same kind of beard that you have described as

22 being worn that afternoon?

23 A. I mean, I tried, I mean, I tried to remember but really I could not,

24 I could not remember, so.

25 Q. You were in this room with how many other prisoners?

Page 5203

1 A. The number, really, I do not know but the room was crowded.

2 Q. Yes. Was it a full room so that people were cramped for space?

3 A. Yes, especially at that time and afterwards, it was starting to

4 become, it started to empty.

5 Q. As you have described the room, were most people sitting down?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said there was a group of prisoners near the door who were

8 standing up?

9 A. A couple of people maybe.

10 Q. Was anyone standing up on the other side of the door? If we look at

11 Exhibit 314, the photograph of the door end of the room, you have it

12 on the projector there?

13 A. You mean to the left or to the right?

14 Q. Looking at the photograph, you describe people standing to the left,

15 is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On the other wall where the hinge of the door would be, were there

18 any people standing there?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So the people in front of the door were sitting down?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In that area did the people in the room go up to the foot of the

23 door, to the actual door frame?

24 A. Yes. The first man was right here. [The witness indicated on the

25 photograph].

Page 5204

1 Q. As we see that big metal sheet which spans across the wall from the

2 side to about two-thirds of the way along the front of the room, were

3 people up against that metal sheet that we see in the photograph?

4 A. You mean this part here?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Yes, there were.

7 Q. That door that we see in the photograph opens outwards into the

8 hangar itself?

9 A. Yes, I mean, it opens to -- yes, to outside.

10 Q. The hinges, as we look at the photograph, would be on the right-hand

11 side on the wall side of the door, is that right?

12 A. Can you repeat that again?

13 Q. As we look at this photograph ----

14 A. From inside?

15 Q. --- yes, the hinges would be on the right-hand side of the door by

16 the wall?

17 A. You mean this small part here?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The lighting in this room only came from some windows against the

21 back wall?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Yes? Is that right?

24 A. During the day and at night we had -- we had sometimes the power on.

25 Q. At this time in Omarska there was no light, was there, in this room,

Page 5205

1 no electric light?

2 A. Sometimes we had, yes, we had.

3 Q. Thinking about this afternoon, in particular, was there an electric

4 light or not in this room?

5 A. I do not think so.

6 Q. If we can look at that photograph that showed the back of the room

7 again, Exhibit 256, we see there the source of natural light into the

8 room, do we not?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That glass for the most part is a kind of opaque glass, is that not

11 right?

12 A. Yes, it looks like it.

13 Q. It is not a clear glass through which you can clearly see outside, it

14 is a kind of thick cloudy glass?

15 A. I would not say cloudy but thick, yes.

16 Q. It is not what we are used to looking out through our ----

17 A. Of course not.

18 Q. --- house windows.

19 A. Of course not. It depends if you have them or not.

20 Q. Yes, it conceals a view outside if you attempted to look through that

21 window?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You, presumably, had occasion when you went into the main hangar, the

24 main garage, which exists outside this room, is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5206

1 Q. I do not know if you can remember what date or month or in relation

2 to your period of time at Omarska when it was that this afternoon took

3 place?

4 A. No, I really could not tell any exact day or date.

5 Q. Right. Outside this room and in the main hangar, again that was an

6 area that was not lit by electric light?

7 A. During the day, no, I do not think so, but they occasionally opened

8 those big garage doors in the back ----

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. -- so you had lights, daylight inside.

11 Q. Yes. But this is a particular room that is further down the

12 building, is it not? It is towards the end of the building and the

13 shutters, as we can see from the model, how many shutters left before

14 you get to the end of the building? You can see better than me from

15 where you are.

16 A. I think you have the one room after that and that big part.

17 Q. Yes, so there is one shutter, is there not, opposite this door?

18 A. I really do not ----

19 Q. OK. Those shutters were occasionally opened by the guards to allow

20 natural light into the garage?

21 A. Yes, you mean in the hangar itself -- yes.

22 Q. Yes. But this hangar was filled with all sorts of equipment that

23 were connected with the mine, for instance, dumper trucks?

24 A. Yes, but as I recall, I saw only one.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 5207

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Opposite your door to that particular room, can you remember what was

3 at the back of the hangar there towards the shutters?

4 A. I could saw some things there, but not that -- I mean, some sort of

5 metal things but not that high, you know, some -- whatever they used

6 in the mine ----

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. --- at that time and I could see the part of that door, garage door,

9 which was opening.

10 Q. Are you saying then that the garage door opposite this door was open

11 on this occasion?

12 A. No, no, on that occasion, no.

13 Q. No. Did you have occasion yourself to go out of the room during that

14 afternoon?

15 A. No, because we were not allowed to go without first getting

16 permission from them to go.

17 Q. In the course of that morning did you go out of that room, perhaps,

18 to go to the toilets which were nearby?

19 A. I went to the lunch.

20 Q. At lunch time?

21 A. Well, lunch time was, you know, you can go at 8 o'clock if you are

22 first or you can go at 6 o'clock if you are last.

23 Q. Can you remember when you had been out of that room or if you had

24 been out of that room earlier in the day?

25 A. Yes, I have been.

Page 5208

1 Q. What time would that have been?

2 A. Maybe around 10.00, 11.00. It was before afternoon.

3 Q. Before the afternoon. Were there any guards in the hangar at that

4 time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On that afternoon, were you aware of what guards were on duty and, if

7 so, to whose shift they belonged?

8 A. I do not know to whose shift. I mean, I forgot. Before I knew. I

9 mean, it was a very, very long time since that happened. I knew

10 almost every shift, who was their leader. But that day I really do

11 not know what shift was and who was the head of that shift. I do not

12 remember.

13 Q. From that position where you were at the back of the room, did you

14 recognise the guard who came to the door, first of all?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Had you seen him before?

17 A. Maybe I saw him, but I really did not pay too much attention to him

18 because he was just one of the guards, especially if he does not do --

19 you know, have those guards who were doing a lot of bad things, so you

20 paid a little bit more attention to them than to those who did not.

21 Q. You told us that it was the guard who opened the door, first of all?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did the guard come into the room?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How far did the guard open the door?

Page 5209

1 A. All the way, I mean, all the way until -- the door was open, if I can

2 show the just picture before, if you want me?

3 Q. Exhibit 314, please?

4 A. I do not know if the door can go all the way to the -- when you open

5 it all the way to the back hall and outside, but the door was open

6 just for the doorway. [The witness indicated on the photograph]. You

7 could see somewhere here, you know, him leaning on the end of that

8 when you open the door and then you have that part of the door. You

9 could see him leaning on that part of the door. I mean, half part of

10 his body.

11 Q. Yes. So the guard was leaning against the door and, as we saw on the

12 photograph, with his back near the part where the hinge would be, is

13 that what you were indicating?

14 A. I just see half of his body leaning, I mean, and looking at us, you

15 know, just with, you know, occasional looks, looks, you know, facing

16 behind Tadic.

17 Q. When the guard opened the door, did he say anything to the room?

18 A. No, not, not -- he did not say anything when he opened the door.

19 Q. Was there just the one name called out, "Jasko"?

20 A. That is what I remember. Maybe they called some more, but I am

21 really not sure.

22 Q. Who called out the name "Jasko"?

23 A. I do not know. I was not looking at that time to them, you know, who

24 opened their mouth or what, I do not know.

25 Q. So it seems when you were leaning against the wall and, as you said,

Page 5210

1 you were at risk, you were exposed, that you were conscious that you

2 did not want to expose yourself to the attention of that guard?

3 A. Yes, of that guard and Tadic.

4 Q. Yes, and so what you were doing against that wall was glancing up for

5 short moments, to risk viewing what was happening by the door?

6 A. Yes, I mean, I was just, you know, look, then put my eyes down and

7 then I again look and put it down. So, I do not know if that is

8 glancing or short looks, but something like that.

9 Q. What you are talking about there is movements that last for a second?

10 A. Yes, but for me that second really did not felt a second, for me at

11 that time.

12 Q. But that is all it was as you were showing us then, just casting your

13 eyes up and then down to the ground?

14 A. Not completely down, I mean, put my head down, I just put my eyes.

15 Q. Yes, but ----

16 A. But yes.

17 Q. --- when you are looking down at the ground you are not looking at

18 the door?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You spent longer looking at the ground ----

21 A. I do not think so.

22 Q. --- than you did the door?

23 A. I do not think so.

24 Q. You do not think so?

25 A. I did not, no. I did not. I spend much time looking at the door

Page 5211

1 than to the ground.

2 Q. I mean, are you just saying that because you want to try to accuse

3 Dusko Tadic in relation to this incident that happened in Omarska?

4 A. No, I am not saying that. I am here just to say what I know.

5 Q. Have you picked up a story here that you have heard from other

6 prisoners in Omarska and in Manjaca where you went as a prisoner later

7 on?

8 A. Did I pick up the story?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. No, no. I just came here with my knowledge of that day, what I saw

11 personally, without any other people telling me what happened.

12 Q. You have been asked by Mr. Tieger about the statement you made to the

13 Tribunal's investigators on 22nd March this year?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that right?

16 A. My first statement?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Maybe it was. I do not know what date.

19 Q. If you would like to have a look at it, we can show you the date. I

20 tender here D32, your Honour. Yes. This is your statement in English

21 that was signed by you and dated, as you will see on page 4, 22nd

22 March of this year.

23 A. Well, then probably it was.

24 Q. You have signed it just above there ----

25 A. Yes, if I signed it ----

Page 5212

1 Q. Mr. Velic.

2 A. --- if I signed this statement -- I mean, I do not really now recall

3 the date when Mr. Tieger was with him. But if this is my signature

4 and it was given on 22nd March, then it is.

5 Q. 1996?

6 A. 6, yes.

7 Q. I mean, if you would you like to look at every page, you will see

8 that every page is signed by you.

9 A. Yes, I know. I remember that.

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Not also me, the interpreter and Mr. Tieger and .....

12 Q. You were spoken to with a police officer present at the time, is that

13 right?

14 A. I was -- on the same day?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. A police officer?

17 Q. If you look at the foot of the statement there on the front page --

18 we do not need the name mentioned now as we have tried to avoid

19 identifying people -- you will see someone with initials?

20 A. Excuse me, but this was not my interview with Mr. Tieger, as you

21 said. This is with Thomas, Mr. Thomas. So that happened before,

22 before I spoke with Mr. Tieger.

23 Q. Yes. You spoke on 22nd March of this year?

24 A. But not with Mr. Tieger, Mr. Thomas.

25 Q. Yes?

Page 5213

1 A. (Indecipherable).

2 Q. Let us look then at what you said ----

3 A. OK.

4 Q. --- because it was only a few months ago, was it not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But almost four years after these events that you have told us about?

7 A. [The witness nods in assent].

8 Q. Had you given anyone a statement before 22nd March of this year?

9 A. I remember giving one when they came to the country I am stationed

10 now, but that was just some kind of brief ----

11 Q. Right.

12 A. --- a brief statement.

13 Q. Right. Did it deal with the events that you have described here?

14 A. Not in details, no, just globally what happened back ----

15 Q. Right.

16 A. --- in Bosnia.

17 Q. Was it a description of what had happened to you in Bosnia and

18 conditions in Omarska, was it, just a general ----

19 A. Just general things.

20 Q. Yes. So would it be right to say the first time you were asked to

21 specifically recall these events was in March of this year?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you were thinking back nearly four years later, did you have

24 difficulty remembering who you had seen and what had happened?

25 A. I did not have problem with who I had seen. I had problem only with

Page 5214

1 dates and dates most of the time and timing.

2 Q. You might like to turn to page 3 then of that statement ----

3 A. OK.

4 Q. -- because you speak English very well and, obviously, can you read

5 English?

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. Yes. You will see in that statement in the third paragraph of page 3

8 that you recall, "I know for sure that he called out 'Jasmin' nickname

9 'Jasko' and 'Alic', first name unknown"?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You seem to have recalled then that when Dusko Tadic came into the

12 room he called out two names?

13 A. Yes, at that time I said that, but the problem was that the day

14 before Mr. Thomas came I was working night shift, 12 hours. I did not

15 get any sleep. My head was not really clear and that was, as you

16 said, after four years and I had to give in short time, you know, a

17 statement. So I really, afterwards when they left and after I was

18 thinking more about, I said some -- I said some things, I mean, like I

19 said about the second name, which I ----

20 Q. Alic?

21 A. --- which I was not sure afterwards.

22 Q. Or is it the case that you have heard evidence that has been given

23 during this trial, that you know what other witnesses have said?

24 A. No, because the country I am stationed really did not pay too much

25 attention to this trial.

Page 5215

1 Q. Or has anyone told you what other witnesses have said?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Because Eno Alic was in the room upstairs above yours?

4 A. Probably he was, I do not know. You told me that. No, I did not

5 even know where he was. So that is the first time I hear where he

6 was.

7 Q. But you said then, in March 1996, that he was called out with Jasko

8 from your room?

9 A. Like I said, after thinking afterwards, you know, after my statement,

10 after, you know, little bit more of thinking and trying to remember,

11 you know, what has happened, I really -- I really was not sure that

12 was true what I said about Alic. Like I said now to Mr. Tieger, you

13 know, I am not sure. I did not want to say that he called "Alic" also

14 because I cannot say really he called him that day, because I am not

15 sure any more.

16 Q. So do you think that your memory concerning this incident that

17 afternoon in Omarska is faulty, that you have made mistakes?

18 A. On the part of the -- which concerned the Jasko and seeing Dusko

19 Tadic that day, it is not faulty. I know that for sure.

20 Q. Have you discussed this incident with anyone else, any other witness?

21 A. You mean during this trial now?

22 Q. Not during this trial but after it took place, did you discuss this

23 incident with anyone else who claimed to have been there?

24 A. Yes, I mean, I was -- it was, you know, stories around. I was trying

25 to ask the specific, the specific man, witness G.

Page 5216

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. And I tried, you know, to ask him some specific details, but he, like

3 I said, he just told me which I already knew, that was Mr. Tadic there

4 and he did not want to go in any detail, so .....

5 Q. Did not witness G claim that Tadic had killed them?

6 A. That is what he told me.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. And I did not see that, so I cannot tell Mr. Tadic killed him or not.

9 Q. Is that why you indicated the name of Enver Alic ----

10 A. No.

11 Q. -- or Alic, and why you are claiming that Dusko Tadic was there when

12 Jasko was called out of that room?

13 A. Because that day I saw Dusko Tadic at that door. That is what I know

14 for fact.

15 Q. Another thing, why in March 1996 did you say in that statement that

16 he, meaning Dusko Tadic, then called out the names of the two

17 prisoners?

18 A. I have already told you that my circumstances before that statement,

19 I had no time to prepare myself for that statement. I was tired, and I

20 had to give that statement in a very short period of time. Maybe I

21 put some things I did not mean to say, but just went out.

22 Q. Do you often do that, say things you do not mean to say?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Say things that are totally different from what they were?

25 A. No.

Page 5217

1 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

3 Re-examined by MR. TIEGER

4 Q. Mr. Velic, let me just to try to clarify something that Mr. Kay asked

5 you about. I think he said that you said in your statement that Enver

6 Alic was called out of your room. If you look at your statement, is

7 it not true that you told the investigator that you had heard the name

8 "Alic" being called as you remembered on that particular day when you

9 were interviewed, but that you did not remember him leaving with Jasko

10 and he could have been in another room?

11 A. Yes, I mean, as I told you when you asked me a question about hearing

12 any noise before the door opened, I told you that I might have heard

13 the name "Alic", so on that day when I gave this statement, maybe I

14 did not really think that clearly like now about this. Maybe on that

15 day, you know, I said instead of I heard that name or something like

16 that before the door opened outside, I just put it that I heard here

17 inside.

18 Q. There was also a suggestion that you mentioned the name "Alic"

19 because G told you that Dule Tadic had killed Mr. Alic. Does your

20 statement not indicate that G told you that Tadic had killed "Jasko"

21 and "Karaba" but did not specifically mention Enver Alic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Just very quickly with respect to the position of the guard who

24 opened the door: as you indicated on the photograph when the door was

25 open, it was roughly parallel to the right wall?

Page 5218

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. OK. If I understood your gesture correctly, was the guard leaning

3 against the edge of the open door with half his body out of view and

4 the other half of the body -- so his front was leaning against it

5 ----

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. --- and half his body out of view and half his body in view? Thank

8 you.

9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that is all I have. Thank you.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, nothing arises. I have tendered D32 which I offer

12 as an Exhibit.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

14 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: D32 will be admitted.

16 MR. KAY: Thank you.

17 Examined by the Court

18 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, you spoke at the beginning of your evidence about

19 leaving the army, the JNA, before your time was up. This seems to

20 have been something that happened a good deal with non-Serb members.

21 Were you in danger after that of being arrested as a deserter or were

22 they glad to see non-Serbs go?

23 A. No, not really. I spent three months after that at home. Really no

24 one did not even, even my Serbian neighbour, they knew I escaped from

25 army, you know, so I mean no one really bothered me. No one really

Page 5219

1 asked me why. No one really gave me any hard time or trying to catch

2 me or put me somewhere. So my feeling was that they were really glad

3 we left.

4 Q. To your own knowledge, this happened a great deal with non-Serb

5 members of the JNA?

6 A. Of course, yes.

7 Q. The only other question I wanted to ask you, your ID that you had in

8 common with everyone else's ID would show your nationality, would it?

9 A. My ID?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. I mean -- you mean the army?

12 Q. No, as a civilian, Yugoslav citizen.

13 A. Yes, I mean, not -- when I was in the primary school, I mean, I

14 never, or in the high school, I never said when I was signing the

15 paper or something like that, and it is the question of nationality, I

16 was always write down Yugoslavian and that is Muslim.

17 Q. But on your ID what would it show?

18 A. Now?

19 Q. No, then just before the war?

20 A. "Yugoslavian" because, I mean, most of the Muslim people at that

21 time, they were all expressing themselves as a Yugoslavian.

22 Q. Not Bosniak?

23 A. Not that I remember, no.

24 Q. Thank you. One question just perhaps following from that: do you

25 know whether most Muslim people's IDs would show that they were Muslim

Page 5220

1 or would most of them just say "Yugoslav"?

2 A. I do not really know for all the people.

3 Q. You do not know?

4 A. No.

5 Q. People that you know?

6 A. I mean, I know for ordinary people that were writing down that they

7 were Yugoslavian all the time. I mean, from my father, from my mother

8 and all my relatives (and I have a great deal of relatives around),

9 they were all writing down as Yugoslavian.

10 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Velic what was the size of Kevljani -- is that

12 the way you pronounce it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. What was the population about of Kevljani at the time of

15 the attack in May 1992?

16 A. The population of the people?

17 Q. How large was it?

18 A. Well, the village was very spread, you know. I mean, it was not

19 really -- you know, it was almost house by the house. But some, you

20 know, you had a house and you had some people were, you know, in their

21 fields, owning the fields, or some kind of property, then another

22 house. Actually, the village was divided in three parts. The village

23 we called Kevljani, you have also after that a town called Hadzici

24 which was belonging to us as a community, but, you know, it is just a

25 different name.

Page 5221

1 Q. So the community of Kevljani would be, you cannot give me an

2 approximation of the size?

3 A. I mean, the community of Kevljani includes Kevljani, Hadzici,

4 Jakupovici, upper and lower, and it is very hard -- it was big, big

5 area. It was big area.

6 Q. What was the predominant religion of the community, if you know?

7 A. Religion?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Islam.

10 Q. Muslim?

11 A. Yes, Muslim.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger? Mr. Kay?

13 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour. Mr. Tieger, do you have any

14 questions? I am sorry.

15 Further re-examined by MR. TIEGER.

16 Q. What was the date on which you left the army and returned to

17 Kevljani, the approximate date?

18 A. The date? When I left the army?

19 Q. Yes, and returned to Kevljani?

20 A. December 31st 1991.

21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

23 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Mr. Velic being permanently

25 excused?

Page 5222

1 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Velic, you are permanently excused. You are free

3 to leave. Thank you for coming

4 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

5 (The witness withdrew)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, who is your next witness?

7 MR. NIEMANN: The next witness is L, your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. We will stand in recess then until 4 o'clock.

9 (3.40 p.m.)

10 (Short Adjournment)

11 (4.00 p.m.)

12

13

14 (Closed session) - released by Trial Chamber II - 30 August 1996

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are in closed session now. Good. Mr. Niemann?

16 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. I call witness L. Before I do so, your

17 Honour, I notice there are some people in the booth up there. I do

18 not know whether they are connected with the Tribunal in any way?

19 MISS FEATHERSTONE: In the French booth?

20 MR. NIEMANN: No, in the technical booth.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. They are not connected with the Tribunal

22 but -----

23 A TECHNICIAN: It is Dutch security.

24 MR. NIEMANN: They probably know the witness anyway, if that is the case.

25 OK, your Honour. I call witness L.

Page 5223

1 WITNESS L, called.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take the oath, please, that is being

3 handed to you?

4 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you read that oath, please?

6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

7 truth and nothing but the truth.

8 (The witness was sworn)

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

10 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me just one minute. Mr. Niemann, you may

12 continue. Thank you.

13 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

14 Q. Witness, I can ask you to look at this piece of paper and if you can

15 tell me whether your name appears on the paper. Might the paper be

16 shown to the Defence before showing it to the witness?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. (redacted)

19 A. (redacted).

20 Q. Did you (redacted) live in (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you subsequently (redacted) move (redacted) to an

24 area (redacted) in the opstina of Prijedor?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5224

1 Q. Are you by nationality a Serb?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. (redacted)

4 A. (redacted).

5 Q. Why did you (redacted) move to the opstina of Prijedor (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 A. Because of the war.

8 Q. What particular aspect of the war caused you to move?

9 A. We could not be in that area because there were Serbs of ethnic

10 descent, and Muslims were all attacked from the Bosnian side (redacted)

11 (redacted).

12 Q. Were you called up into the army (redacted)

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you respond to the call-up notice?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you join the army?

17 A. No, I was not in the army.

18 Q. (redacted)

19 A. (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 Q. (redacted), did your (redacted) obtain accommodation in a town

22 (redacted) in the opstina of Prijedor?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Had you ever been to this place before this date?

25 A. No.

Page 5225

1 Q. When you arrived at this place had the original occupants left? Had

2 they left by this stage?

3 A. Excuse me. I did not quite hear the question.

4 Q. When you arrived at this place where (redacted) obtained

5 accommodation, had a large number of the original occupants left the

6 place?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did (redacted) Serb refugees (redacted) also come to this

9 place where (redacted) obtained accommodation about the same time as

10 (redacted) came there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know some of the people that came to this place as refugees?

13 Do you know the names of some of the people?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Are you able to name some of them?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you do it now?

18 A. (redacted)

19 (redacted) Serbs from (redacted) who had moved (redacted)

20 Q. Were there (redacted)Serb refugees at this place already there when you

21 arrived?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were these refugees receiving humanitarian aid?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know where humanitarian aid was being distributed from?

Page 5226

1 A. It was distributed in Kozarac.

2 Q. Do you know who was responsible or in charge of distributing the

3 humanitarian aid in Kozarac?

4 A. From what we knew, it was Dusko Tadic.

5 Q. Do you know where the supplies of humanitarian aid were coming from

6 that were being distributed?

7 A. As far as I knew, it was brought over from Prijedor, but it was

8 brought in by the United Nations.

9 Q. How did you know that it was coming in from the United Nations?

10 A. They otherwise brought this aid, because they were in that area of

11 Yugoslavia, of Kozarac.

12 Q. Did you see the United Nations operating in this area delivering

13 supplies and humanitarian aid?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In Kozarac, do you know where this humanitarian aid was being

16 distributed, what part of Kozarac?

17 A. It was distributed not far from the petrol station in Dusko Tadic's

18 house.

19 Q. Can you describe the property, the house from which it was being

20 distributed from?

21 A. That house had was a one storey building. There was a shop and a

22 coffee bar of the white colour.

23 Q. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 A. (redacted).

Page 5227

1 Q. Did you go to get humanitarian aid (redacted)

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Approximately, when was it that you went to get this aid?

4 A. That humanitarian aid was distributed around the (redacted)

5 Q. Who did you go with when you went to get humanitarian aid (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 A. (redacted)

8 Q. You knew this person prior to coming to the opstina of Prijedor?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you went to get humanitarian aid, who did you see at this place?

11 A. I saw Dusko Tadic who was sitting at a table and receiving the cards

12 from the International Red Cross with our names on them, with the

13 names of refugees, and all the families and all the members of those

14 families were written down so that they would be entitled to receive

15 the humanitarian aid.

16 Q. Were you introduced to Dusko Tadic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who introduced you?

19 A. (redacted).

20 Q. Other than just being introduced, did you have a conversation with

21 Dusko Tadic?

22 A. Sorry -- no.

23 Q. For how long were you at the premises on this day, do you remember,

24 approximately?

25 A. Sorry, you were in the house -- we were receiving the humanitarian

Page 5228

1 aid.

2 Q. Yes, how long were you there?

3 A. About 15 minutes.

4 Q. During this period of 15 minutes, did you see Dusko Tadic at the

5 house?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you describe what you remember of his physical appearance on that

8 day?

9 A. He was clean shaven, clean, big. He had civilian clothes.

10 Q. Can you remember the colour of his hair?

11 A. He had black hair, curly with sideburns.

12 Q. Did you notice whether or not he was armed or carried any weapons?

13 A. He was not armed.

14 Q. Did you see him there with anyone else?

15 A. There was an unknown woman whose family name was not known to me, but

16 there was a female whose first name was "Branka".

17 Q. Did someone tell you what position Dusko Tadic held in the town of

18 Kozarac at that time?

19 A. Sorry, I do not quite understand this word "position". Excuse me.

20 What position? I do not quite understand.

21 Q. Did someone tell you what job Dusko Tadic held in the town of Kozarac

22 at this time?

23 A. Well, he distributed the humanitarian aid, seemed to be responsible

24 for the International Red Cross, and he was one of the armed who was a

25 Commander in the camp at Trnopolje.

Page 5229

1 Q. Who told you this?

2 A. That he was a Commander in the camp?

3 Q. Yes, who told you this, gave you this information?

4 A. It was given me by Bosko Dragicevic.

5 Q. After you collected the humanitarian supplies, where did you and

6 (redacted) go?

7 A. We were in the restaurant in the same house. It was in the same

8 house but elsewhere, in other part.

9 Q. What did you do in this other part?

10 A. We sat down there. There were people gathering there where drinks

11 would be taken out, where Bosko Dragicevic was there and a policeman

12 by the name of Ljuban.

13 Q. Did you know Bosko Dragicevic?

14 A. You mean before?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. No.

17 Q. So is this the first time that you met him?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell me how old he was, approximately?

20 A. Who, sorry?

21 Q. Bosko Dragicevic.

22 A. He was about 40.

23 Q. Did you from the conversation find out where he came from?

24 A. Bosko Dragicevic?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 5230

1 A. From what I learned in the talk with me and (redacted), he was

2 from the area of Kozarac (redacted)

3 (redacted).

4 Q. Did you also find out what his job was?

5 A. That he was also a policeman -- sorry, a civilian policeman, but

6 otherwise he was a policeman who worked at the Trnopolje camp.

7 Q. At that time were you interested in getting a job?

8 A. Yes, because the mobilization of Serbs was underway of those who had

9 crossed into the territory of the municipality of Prijedor.

10 Q. Did (redacted) know that you wanted a job, that you needed a job?

11 A. Did -- excuse me, I could not hear it very well.

12 Q. Did (redacted) know at the time that you wanted to obtain a job?

13 A. He was -- he knew already that I needed a job because of the

14 mobilization. Otherwise, in his conversation he asked Bosko

15 Dragicevic (redacted) whether there was a

16 possibility for me, whether there was a vacancy where I could be

17 employed.

18 Q. Where was this vacancy at? Where was the job to be at?

19 A. You mean where I got a job?

20 Q. Yes, where were you to work? What was the discussion about in terms

21 of where you would work?

22 A. During that discussion it was said that I could get a job at the

23 Trnopolje camp as a guard.

24 Q. Did they discuss the income you would earn?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5231

1 Q. Did you also find out (redacted) Serb refugees (redacted)

2 (redacted) were (redacted) working at this camp?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did they tell you to whom you were to report for this job when you

5 started?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who did they say you should see?

8 A. I went first to (redacted) and then with him I went to Trnopolje,

9 to the camp, where Bosko Dragicevic was at the command.

10 Q. When did you go to the camp, to the Trnopolje camp? How long after

11 this meeting (redacted) did you then go for the first time

12 to Trnopolje camp?

13 A. Excuse me. I did not hear it very well.

14 Q. When did you go first, when was your first day, can you remember the

15 date, the first day you went to the Trnopolje camp?

16 A. (redacted)

17 Q. Did you go there on that day with (redacted), as was originally

18 planned?

19 A. Before that I went with (redacted). Excuse me. (redacted)

20 (redacted), I went (redacted) to Bosko Dragicevic's office

21 which was next to the Trnopolje camp. Then there I was issued a

22 uniform and Dragicevic took me out from that office and then went to

23 show me various facilities, the sentry posts which were in the

24 Trnopolje camp.

25 Q. Where in relation to the camp was the office of Bosko Dragicevic?

Page 5232

1 A. Excuse me, if -- let me explain. If you come from the direction of

2 Kozarac to Trnopolje, it is on the left-hand side.

3 Q. Perhaps you could assist us more. What side of the road was the main

4 part of the camp, as you came from Kozarac towards Trnopolje?

5 A. On the right-hand side.

6 Q. When you arrived at the camp and you were being shown around by Bosko

7 Dragicevic, did you recognise any of the camp guards that you saw

8 there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Are you able to give the names of any of those camp guards that you

11 recognised?

12 A. Well, as far as I can recall, there was (redacted)

13 (redacted) and some other policemen who worked there. They

14 were all in the police.

15 Q. Did you recognise these guards (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were these (redacted) young men (redacted), these men that you have just

19 named?

20 A. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 Q. What were the conditions in the camp like when you first saw it?

23 A. When I arrived, when I walked around with Bosko Dragicevic, they were

24 very terrible.

25 Q. When you say "terrible" are you talking about the condition of the

Page 5233

1 hygiene of the camp or the accommodation or what, can you tell us?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Approximately, how many prisoners were there at that time, were you

4 told that?

5 A. There were about 1500, in my estimate, who were within the camp, who

6 were in the dom and the school building.

7 Q. What was the prison population of the camp made up of mostly?

8 A. You mean who were, what sort of -- I apologise, you mean the hygiene

9 of the people?

10 Q. No, no. Can you tell us, was the camp population women and children

11 and old men?

12 A. Women and children and elderly people, they were there.

13 Q. Did you see many men of military age? By "military age", I mean from

14 17 through to 50?

15 A. They were not 17 to 50. They were 55 to 80, more.

16 Q. Do you know the religion or nationality of the people that were in

17 the camp?

18 A. Nationality?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Muslims.

21 Q. Did Dragicevic tell you when you could commence work?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When did he say you would start work?

24 A. He told me that I could start the next day, that was (redacted)

25 (redacted).

Page 5234

1 Q. I think you said a moment earlier that you were issued with a

2 uniform?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you describe the uniform that you were issued with?

5 A. The uniform was SMB in colour, which is the shirt and trousers and a

6 pullover and there was a multi-colour police uniform.

7 Q. Did you report for duty the next day, that is, (redacted)

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What time did you get to work?

10 A. I arrived (redacted)

11 Q. Did you again meet with Dragicevic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did he introduce you to the guard that you were to relieve?

14 A. I knew that guard myself, (redacted) and

15 he gave me his rifle.

16 Q. What was that guard's name? Do you remember?

17 A. I cannot quite remember.

18 Q. (redacted)

19 A. (redacted)

20 (redacted).

21 Q. When you say (redacted), what part of the camp

22 was it? Can you tell us a little bit more about where it was located?

23 A. It is in (redacted) which is where (redacted)

24 (redacted).

25 Q. Were you told what your duties would be as a guard at the camp with

Page 5235

1 respect to handling the prisoners?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was your job? What were your duties?

4 A. My job was not to allow the civilians from the other side to go and

5 mingle with the people and the other military which is moving towards

6 the positions, and not to approach these inmates and also the inmates

7 not to climb the fence, so that they could not get out.

8 Q. Is there a railway station near Trnopolje?

9 A. Yes, it does.

10 Q. How far from the camp is the railway station, roughly, approximately?

11 A. Well, it is -- you mean the way the crow flies? I do not know.

12 Q. If you had to walk there, how far you would have to walk,

13 approximately, from the camp itself to the railway station?

14 A. About 60 to 70 metres from the camp to the railway station.

15 Q. Can you tell me what buildings went to make up the camp?

16 A. Yes, I can. There was a school building, a store, the dom, one large

17 shed and there was also an electric substation and, I am sorry, there

18 was also a built latrine, an outhouse.

19 Q. Was there open ground around the camp itself?

20 A. I am sorry. I did not hear the question very well.

21 Q. Was there a field around the camp, around the buildings, an open area

22 of land?

23 A. It was fenced.

24 Q. (redacted). How many guards posts were

25 there?

Page 5236

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How many were there altogether, in total?

3 A. Four.

4 Q. Where were they positioned, can you tell us? Where were the four

5 guard posts positioned?

6 A. They were at the corners of the objects of the school building,

7 between the store and towards the railway station, and there were two

8 on the road that led from Kozarac to Trnopolje. There were two behind

9 that leading towards the soccer field, towards Prijedor.

10 Q. From what you could see, where for the most part were the prisoners

11 kept?

12 A. The women and children were kept in the primary school building, and

13 the elderly were in the dom.

14 Q. Where were the prisoners' toilets?

15 A. They were between the school building and the dom, towards the road

16 that leads to Prijedor.

17 Q. Were they enclosed in a building or were they out in the open?

18 A. They were open.

19 Q. Was there running water supplied to the prisoners at the camp?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did they have beds to sleep on?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What was the cleanliness of the camp? Was it cleaned up on a regular

24 basis or was it left dirty?

25 A. It was all dirty.

Page 5237

1 Q. Did you know a guard at the camp by the name of Zoran Karajica?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Do you know, approximately, how old he was?

4 A. He was 20 to 25 years old, 25.

5 Q. Do you know whether or not he was Serb, or was he some other

6 nationality?

7 A. As far as I knew, he was Catholic, of catholic faith, Catholic faith.

8 Q. Do you know where he came from?

9 A. Zoran Karajica?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. From Trnopolje. His house was not far from the camp.

12 Q. When you were at the camp, did you also know a guard by the name of

13 Milan Cavic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Again, approximately, how old was Cavic?

16 A. Somewhere 30, between 35 and 40 years.

17 Q. Do you know where he came from?

18 A. From the part of -- from around Omarska, Trnopolje.

19 Q. Do you know what nationality he was?

20 A. A Catholic.

21 Q. (redacted), around the end of

22 October 1992, did you see Zoran Karajica and Milan Cavic go into the

23 office of Bosko Dragicevic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you remember about what time of the day this was?

Page 5238

1 A. When they came to the office of Dragicevic?

2 Q. Yes, roughly, if you can remember. You may not remember.

3 A. Somewhere around 11.00, maybe noon. I could not tell you exactly,

4 but it was around noon.

5 Q. Did you then see these men go into one of the buildings in the camp?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Shortly after that, did you see them leading out four elderly

8 prisoners?

9 MR. KAY: I wonder if my learned friend would refrain in leading in

10 relation to evidence we are about to deal with?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will sustain your objection.

12 MR. KAY: Thank you.

13 MR. NIEMANN: Shortly after, what happened then?

14 A. They entered the camp and after some time they went into the dom from

15 where they took out four elderly men.

16 Q. When they brought out these elderly men, were these men tied up in

17 any way or were they just walking freely with the guards?

18 A. Their hands were tied behind their backs.

19 Q. Approximately, how old were these prisoners?

20 A. I cannot recall exactly.

21 Q. Were they men in their middle age, I am talking men in their 50s, or

22 were they older than that?

23 A. As far as I remember, all were between 55 and 80. I do not know

24 exactly how old those were that were taken out had.

25 Q. How were they being led out of the building?

Page 5239

1 A. They were holding them under their arms. They were tied behind their

2 backs, but they were holding them under their arms. They took them

3 out of the dom, out of the school building -- no, out of the dom and

4 walked them across the street and took them to a white house.

5 Q. When you say "they", who was it that was holding and leading these

6 men?

7 A. Zoran Karajica and Cavic, Milan Cavic, and Bosko Dragicevic followed

8 them.

9 Q. Did you see whether or not Bosko Dragicevic was carrying any weapons

10 or arms?

11 A. Yes, he had an automatic rifle with him.

12 Q. I think you said a moment ago they took them in the direction of a

13 white house. Where was this house located (redacted)

14 A. That house was to the right across from the road in the direction of

15 Omarska.

16 Q. From what you could see of it, did you know whether or not the house

17 was occupied?

18 A. In the white house?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Had somebody lived there previously?

21 Q. No. I am asking you was somebody living in the house at the time

22 when you were in the camp?

23 A. No, nobody lived in that house.

24 Q. Do you recall what date this was that you saw these men being led out

25 of the co-operative building?

Page 5240

1 A. I do not remember. Sorry, do I?

2 Q. Do you recall the date, do you remember what date, it was when you

3 saw these four men being led out of the co-operative building?

4 A. That was (redacted), October 26th, (redacted)

5 Q. You saw them take these men towards that building that you said was a

6 white house. Where did they take them to, could you see?

7 A. I am sorry, I do not know that my sound system -- I understand Mr.

8 Niemann, but on listening there is a bit of a problem.

9 Q. Did you see where they took these men to?

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you hear me?

11 THE WITNESS: Yes. I am sorry. OK.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Did you see ----

13 A. Yes, could you?

14 Q. Did you see where they took these men to?

15 A. They took them in the direction of the white house, of that white

16 house.

17 Q. Did you see what they did with the men?

18 A. (redacted), I watched and they took

19 these men to the white house and there was a pole there.

20 Q. What did they do then?

21 A. They tied them up to that pole and after a while Bosko Dragicevic

22 shot at those old men and, as far as I could tell and from my point of

23 view, those old men were all killed.

24 Q. After they were shot at, what did they do then, did you see?

25 A. They left them on that pole. They returned to the office, the

Page 5241

1 command.

2 Q. While this happened, did you have an uninterrupted clear view of the

3 event and what occurred, or were there obstructions that were in your

4 road?

5 A. I could see a lot of what was going on because my view was clear all

6 the way to the house.

7 Q. After these men had been shot, did Karajica, Cavic and then

8 Dragicevic come back?

9 A. To the command?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Later on in that day did you see Dusko Tadic?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. About what time of the day was it when you saw him?

15 A. That was part of the day before the evening, (redacted).

16 Q. Where did you see him?

17 A. He arrived in his Golf to Trnopolje where the house was that was the

18 command, and he came to Bosko Dragicevic.

19 Q. Did he go into Bosko Dragicevic's office?

20 A. He walked inside, but I did not know where he was in the office, was

21 he in Dragicevic's or his own.

22 Q. Did he arrive with anyone else or was he by himself?

23 A. He arrived with (redacted)

24 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic again later that day or was that the only

25 time you saw him?

Page 5242

1 A. It was the only time I saw him there.

2 Q. Some days later, did you again see Dusko Tadic at the camp?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you remember when it was, the next time you saw him,

5 approximately, the date?

6 A. I cannot quite recall the date, but he came the next day also in his

7 Golf to the command and met with Bosko Dragicevic and a couple of

8 policemen where Zoran Karajica and Milan Cavic were, and then after a

9 while they went into the dom in the camp, and then in the meantime

10 Dusko Tadic was in that camp and then came out of the camp and they

11 brought out 10 inmates from the camp.

12 Q. Do you remember what time of the day this was? Was it in the morning

13 or in the afternoon?

14 A. Well, in the morning, somewhere around, I cannot say exactly, but in

15 the morning (redacted).

16 Q. Did Dusko Tadic himself enter the camp compound when they collected

17 these 10 men?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Once they collected the 10 men, these 10 men were prisoners, were

20 they?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Once they collected these 10 men, what did they then do with them?

23 A. Tadic went in his Golf towards Kozarac and Bosko Dragicevic, Zoran

24 Karajica and Cavic and some policemen remained.

25 Q. Did they do anything with the 10 men that they had gathered up from

Page 5243

1 the camp?

2 A. They took them towards the white house and after half an hour they

3 came back. I did not hear any shots. I did not see those 10

4 prisoners who had been taken out to return, and I assumed that those

5 people had their throats slashed behind that house where there was a

6 garden.

7 Q. When you said "they returned", do you mean that the guards returned?

8 A. Yes, the guards.

9 Q. From what you could see Dusko Tadic merely got in the vehicle and

10 drove away?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic again that day at the camp?

13 A. That day?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you recall the 5th November 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you working at the camp on that day?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What time did you arrive at the camp to start your work on that day?

21 A. We came (redacted)

22 Q. Shortly after you arrived at work on that day, did you see Milan

23 Cavic and Zoran Karajica go into the office of Bosko Dragicevic?

24 MR. KAY: Again I would ask my learned friend not to lead on these

25 matters, your Honour.

Page 5244

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will sustain your objection. Mr. Niemann, please

2 rephrase your question without leading. "Did you see anyone go into

3 his office and, if so, whom?"

4 MR. NIEMANN: At about (redacted) that day did you see someone go into the

5 office of Bosko Dragicevic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who did you see go into the office of Bosko Dragicevic?

8 A. There were Zoran Karajica, Milan Cavic and after a while Dusko Tadic

9 arrived with his car.

10 Q. What did Dusko Tadic do when he arrived at the camp?

11 A. He was in his office, came out with that Bosko Dragicevic, Zoran

12 Karajica, Cavic. They entered the dom. Sorry, excuse me, they

13 entered the camp and they reached the school and after some short

14 time they took out a girl whose hands were tied behind her back.

15 Q. What was Dusko Tadic doing while this was happening?

16 A. He was at the entrance to the elementary school.

17 Q. What did Dragicevic do?

18 A. You mean Bosko?

19 Q. Yes, Bosko Dragicevic.

20 A. They were inside the school and then they brought out the girl.

21 Q. After they brought out the girl, what did Bosko Dragicevic do?

22 A. They brought out a girl and took her between dom and the shop and

23 started with her, to take her out on to the asphalt. Dusko Tadic

24 followed Cavic and Zoran Karajica. Bosko Dragicevic came to me and

25 told me to follow him, to go with him, that he needed me. He took my

Page 5245

1 rifle off my shoulder and started and I asked him how could I

2 (redacted)

3 Q. When you asked him that, what did he say?

4 A. He told me that I could feel free to leave, (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. What happened then?

7 A. So I left with him. He took my rifle. We went out of the camp. I

8 did not know what it was all about. Dusko Tadic was following Zoran

9 Karajica and Cavic alongside that girl, behind that girl, behind those

10 who were taking that girl along. They brought her to the white house.

11 Bosko Dragicevic asked me if I had ever had any sexual intercourse

12 with a female person, with a girl, how shall I say it. I said no and

13 that I would not like ever to have it.

14 Q. What did he then say to you?

15 A. He told me not to worry about that, that he would make it possible

16 for me even if by rape.

17 Q. When he said "even if by rape", what did you say to him about that?

18 A. I told him that I would not like to do that because (redacted)

19 (redacted).

20 Q. What did he do then? What did he say then?

21 A. He did not say anything to me. He said to follow him. He took me by

22 my shoulder and then we started off. We reached a house with a

23 cellar. We entered that cellar in which there were Dusko Tadic, Zoran

24 Karajica and Milan Cavic with the girl.

25 Q. Did you go down into the basement?

Page 5246

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Approximately how large was this basement?

3 A. Well, it was about 3 by 2, two and a half, the length and the width

4 of the cellar.

5 Q. What was the floor of the cellar made of?

6 A. Earthen.

7 Q. How was the cellar lit up? How could you see when you were there?

8 A. There was a window which was to the right and there was a door, one

9 entered through a door.

10 Q. Did the window and the door allow light to come into the cellar?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you got into the basement what did you see?

13 A. There was a mattress.

14 Q. What else did you see?

15 A. A mattress and there was some wood there.

16 Q. Did you see the girl there?

17 A. Yes, there was a girl.

18 Q. Can you describe the clothes that she had on at that time when you

19 saw her?

20 A. I can describe it but I do not remember very, very well, I am sorry.

21 I know that she was dark, that she had black short hair, and it was

22 combed, parted in the middle. She was about 165, 170 metres tall.

23 She was about 17 or 18 of age.

24 Q. What was this girl doing when you entered the room?

25 A. Standing and Zoran Karajica and Cavic were holding her.

Page 5247

1 Q. What happened next with the girl?

2 A. After a while they began undressing her. They undressed her and

3 shoved her down to the mattress and, as far as I can remember, she had

4 a red bra of a bathing suit and white panties.

5 Q. When they pushed her down on to the mattress, did someone hold her

6 down?

7 A. She was pushed down on to the mattress and Zoran Karajica and Cavic

8 helped her. After some time Bosko Dragicevic told me to start

9 undressing, and that is to commit the rape of that girl. I was

10 otherwise standing. I looked at Dusko Tadic, what he would tell me,

11 but he did not tell me anything. So I took off my trousers only, and

12 then Dragicevic pushed me on to the girl. I fell across the girl and

13 then after some time I came off on her body, not in.

14 Q. Did you ejaculate outside of her body?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When the girl was being held down, was she making any noise or saying

17 anything?

18 A. Yes, she was struggling, wrestling, crying, begging not to kill her.

19 She thought, she believed she would be killed.

20 Q. Was she able to see what was happening or was she blindfolded?

21 A. She was blindfolded. Her eyes were tied.

22 Q. Did she at any stage make an attempt to break away?

23 A. Yes, she was struggling and she was trying everything, but she could

24 not because they held on to her arms and her legs.

25 Q. When you ejaculated on the outside of her body what did the other men

Page 5248

1 do?

2 A. They were holding her and Dusko Tadic was standing aside. They were

3 laughing.

4 Q. What was the next thing that happened after that?

5 A. After that I stood up from the girl and I dressed. After me then

6 Zoran Karajica took his clothes off and lied down on the girl and then

7 he began to commit rape.

8 Q. Did the girl make a noise when Karajica did this?

9 A. She was wrestling and crying, and I could see that that girl was a

10 virgin and that he penetrated her.

11 Q. How was it that you were able to see she was a virgin?

12 A. Well, there was blood her thighs and in between the legs. I am sorry,

13 I do apologise, there was blood there.

14 Q. After Karajica had raped the girl, did he say something to you?

15 A. They told me that they would bring another girl and that I would have

16 to ejaculate in her, not over her body.

17 Q. Who said this to you?

18 A. They would bring another girl?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Dragicevic.

21 Q. Was this the first time that you had ever had sexual relations with

22 a girl?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you remember whether Dusko Tadic said anything to the girl at the

25 time?

Page 5249

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you hear?

2 MR. NIEMANN: Could you hear the question?

3 THE WITNESS: No.

4 Q. Do you remember whether Dusko Tadic said anything to the girl at the

5 time?

6 A. He threatened her, that he would kill her, that he would slit her

7 throat if anybody in the camp ever learned if she, that is, said to

8 anyone what had happened to her.

9 Q. Did the girl say anything to Dusko Tadic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did Dusko Tadic say anything to her other than that he would kill her

12 if anyone learned what had happened to her?

13 A. Did he say that previously?

14 Q. No. Did he say anything else to the girl that you can remember? You

15 may not remember.

16 A. No.

17 Q. When Dragicevic told you that they would choose another girl and that

18 on this occasion you must ejaculate inside her, who was present during

19 this conversation, can you remember? Who of the guards was present?

20 A. Nobody was present. Only the two of us.

21 Q. After this incident where did you go?

22 A. I went back (redacted)

23 Q. Several hours later on the same day did you see another girl being

24 led out?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5250

1 Q. Who was leading the girl out on this occasion?

2 A. There was also Zoran Karajica, Cavic and Dragicevic.

3 Q. Where did they take the girl?

4 A. To that white house. To the cellar again.

5 Q. What happened then?

6 A. Dragicevic called me, bid me to come with him, and I came with him.

7 Then he threatened me that I had to come on to that girl and Dusko

8 Tadic was there too.

9 Q. Where did you go?

10 A. We went to the cellar of the house where Karajica, Zoran Karajica,

11 Cavic, Dusko Tadic were also there and where Dragicevic arrived.

12 Q. Can you recall how Dusko Tadic was dressed on this occasion?

13 A. He had a camouflage uniform on, a multi-coloured uniform, and he had

14 a pistol on him and a baton and a belt. Bosko Dragicevic was also in

15 uniform.

16 Q. The camouflage uniform that he had on, what was the main colour of

17 the camouflage uniform?

18 A. Multi-coloured police.

19 Q. What was the main colour, can you remember?

20 A. Blue and white. Blue and white, multi-coloured blue and white.

21 Q. Where did you go with this girl and the other men?

22 A. We went to the cellar.

23 Q. When you got to the basement what did you see?

24 A. We saw the girl, Zoran Karajica and Cavic.

25 Q. Did you see Tadic at this stage?

Page 5251

1 A. Tadic was there too.

2 Q. Can you recall whether the girl was still dressed when you went into

3 the basement?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. About how old was this girl, do you know?

6 A. She was around 17 or 18, something around. She was about 160, 165

7 tall.

8 Q. Do you know what her nationality or religion was?

9 A. Muslim, that was her nationality.

10 Q. Was she able to see or was she blindfolded?

11 A. She was blindfolded.

12 Q. Can you remember and can you describe the clothes that she had on?

13 A. She was wearing a sports suit, that is a sports jacket and trousers.

14 It had red stripes on the side. She had slightly longer hair. She

15 had a pony tail.

16 Q. Can you remember what colour her hair was?

17 A. Black.

18 Q. Were you told to do something with this girl that was standing there?

19 A. Yes, to take her jacket off, to strip her naked, but I took off her

20 jacket and I could not take off anything else because she was

21 wrestling, she was struggling. Zoran Karajica and Cavic undressed

22 her, took her clothes off.

23 Q. Did they strip her naked?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After they stripped her naked, what did they then do with the girl?

Page 5252

1 A. Pushed her down on to the mattress.

2 Q. When she was pushed on to the mattress, was anyone holding her?

3 A. Yes, they held her.

4 Q. How did they hold her, can you describe that?

5 A. Well, they held her hands above her head and they held her feet, her

6 legs.

7 Q. Can you remember who it was that was holding her?

8 A. No, I cannot quite remember, but those who were there, I cannot

9 remember who that was specifically, who held on to her arms and who

10 held her legs, but -- I am sorry, I cannot remember who was, who was

11 holding her legs and who was holding her arms, but Milan Cavic and

12 Zoran Karajica held her because they were there.

13 Q. When the girl was being held in this position were you told to do

14 something?

15 A. Yes, they told me to undress and to lie down on the girl and to

16 perform rape.

17 Q. What did you do?

18 A. I undressed. I lay down on the girl and after some time, I am sorry,

19 as I entered the girl I realised she was a virgin, but Dragicevic

20 pressed me with his foot on my back so that I penetrated the girl.

21 Then after that penetration Dusko Tadic told Dragicevic not to let me

22 off the girl until I came off, until I ejaculated.

23 Q. When you penetrated the girl did she make a sound or make any noise?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you make this girl bleed?

Page 5253

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. After you had finished raping the girl, did Tadic say anything to

3 you?

4 A. He told me that I would do what I was told to.

5 Q. Were you upset and confused when this happened?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you attempt to leave the basement ahead of ----

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you attempting to leave the basement ahead of the other men?

10 A. After I performed the rape?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Yes, I performed the rape and then I started, I dressed and then I

13 started from the cellar to go back (redacted) and Dusko Tadic

14 caught me by the arm and told me I could not go back (redacted)

15 until we all left.

16 Q. What happened next?

17 A. After me Cavic took off his clothes and he lay down on the girl and

18 he performed the rape of the girl.

19 Q. After Cavic had raped the girl, what did they do with her?

20 A. With the girl?

21 Q. Yes, what happened next? What was the next thing?

22 A. After Cavic raped her?

23 Q. Yes, after Cavic had finished raping the girl, what was the next

24 thing that happened?

25 A. Then they lifted her off the mattress and removed the blindfold.

Page 5254

1 Then she wiped herself and was ordered to dress. She was also

2 threatened that she would be killed or her throat would be slit, that

3 she was not to talk in the camp about what had happened to her.

4 Q. Who told her this, that her throat would be slit if she said what had

5 happened to her?

6 A. Tadic.

7 Q. Did you then all go back to the camp?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where did you go?

10 A. I went to the office until Bosko Dragicevic returned my rifle from

11 the headquarters, because he had left my rifle in the command in the

12 headquarters, and I took my rifle and I went (redacted).

13 Q. Did you see where the other men went?

14 A. They took the girl to the school.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I am about to move on to another incident.

16 Would that be a convenient time?

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

18 (5.30 p.m.).

19 (The court adjourned until the following day).

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