Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5255

1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T

2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER

4 Wednesday, 14th August 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 (Hearing in closed session) released by Trial Chamber II 30 August 1996

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

8 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you like to continue with witness L? We are

10 still in closed session.

11 WITNESS L, recalled

12 Examined by MR. NIEMANN, continued.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated.

14 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Thank you.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Witness L, you understand that you are still under

16 the oath that you took yesterday to tell the truth? You understand

17 that?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may proceed, Mr. Niemann.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. Witness, do you recall yesterday

21 afternoon just prior to the adjournment we were talking about events

22 that were happening on 5th November 1992?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recall in the early afternoon of that day three men being

25 taken out of the co-operative building?

Page 5256

1 A. I do.

2 MR. KAY: Again may I raise a matter here, your Honour, about the leading

3 of my learned friend in relation to this witness?

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, it is leading. Do you recall a matter relating

5 to the three men being taken out of the co-operative building? That

6 is a new issue. You are not talking about the same one?

7 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour. I have to take the witness to the

8 incident.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is this a new incident or is this the one, the

10 elderly men, I thought that was four men.

11 MR. NIEMANN: No, this is a new incident, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You do not think that is leading?

13 MR. NIEMANN: Not to introduce a new incident, your Honour. Once I have

14 identified the incident for the witness and the witness can come on,

15 certainly I accept that, but the witness ----

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. It is probably preliminary. I think it is

17 preliminary. Once he gets into it, he is introducing and it is

18 preliminary. So, I will not overrule. I will overrule the objection,

19 will not sustain the objection, but when you get beyond the

20 preliminary matters, then be careful not to lead the witness.

21 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you want to repeat that preliminary question?

23 MR. NIEMANN: No, the witness says he recalls it.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK.

25 MR. NIEMANN [To the witness]: Did you see who it was that was leading

Page 5257

1 these three men?

2 A. I remember there was Bosko Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica and Milan

3 Cavic.

4 Q. Where had they taken the men from, could you see that?

5 A. They took them out from dom, and took them towards the white house.

6 Q. Did anyone else then arrive on the scene?

7 A. Yes, there was Dragicevic, there was Dusko Tadic at the time. He

8 returned in his car.

9 Q. Did Dusko Tadic stay on the scene or did he leave?

10 A. He left.

11 Q. What did the men then do with the three prisoners that were being

12 taken out of the co-operative building?

13 A. They took them to the white house (redacted)

14 (redacted) and harassed them there, beat them, and then they were followed

15 by Bosko Dragicevic as Dusko Tadic went towards Kozarac in his car,

16 but Dragicevic came back and went to the white house and bid me --

17 sorry, came to me and then told me to come along, to come with him,

18 because there was a task I had to perform.

19 I asked him how could I leave (redacted), and he told me

20 that I could do that (redacted). As we

21 went out of the camp, he took my rifle away from me and we passed by

22 the command, by the headquarters, which is on the right side of the

23 road. We went past that and reached the white house. That white

24 house is on the -- to the right from the elementary school from the

25 camp.

Page 5258

1 Q. Did Dragicevic tell you what it was that he wanted you to do?

2 A. He told me that there was a task there, that there were some three

3 old men and that I was to fire several bullets into them. They were

4 quite old.

5 Q. What did you say to him when he told you this?

6 A. I said I did not want to do it and let them do it, and he threatened

7 that he would kill me unless I did it.

8 Q. When you arrived at the white house, can you describe the way the

9 three men prisoners were being retained at the white house?

10 A. When we reached that white house, there was a post -- there was a bar

11 next to the house and there were two posts about two, 2.5 metres

12 tall.

13 Q. Did you know what this bar and two posts had been used for prior to

14 this day?

15 A. Well, that bar served, it was an unfinished house, and it was used to

16 help put the building materials up in building.

17 Q. Was it a sort of scaffolding, was it?

18 A. I am sorry, I did not hear the question quite well.

19 Q. Was it some form of scaffolding for working on the building for

20 people to stand on when they work on the building?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was this post with the horizontal bar being used for when you

23 arrived at the white house?

24 A. You mean with that horizontal bar, sorry?

25 Q. Yes, what were they doing with it on that day, the day you got there,

Page 5259

1 on that day that the three men were taken there?

2 A. I was some 15 metres away from it. Those old men were beaten. They

3 were tied to that bar, that is, their hands, their hands were, and

4 with spread arms they were tied up to this horizontal bar, and after

5 sometime they move away and I was ordered to kill those old men.

6 Q. Who gave you that order?

7 A. Bosko Dragicevic.

8 Q. Did you immediately comply with the order or did you hesitate?

9 A. Well, I did comply with the orders immediately. I was standing and

10 asked him why was I to kill those people, what was the reason for it

11 because they had done no wrong to me, to kill anyone, it was the first

12 time I was to kill someone.

13 Q. What did Dragicevic then do?

14 A. They told me I had to or else he would kill me. I was under a

15 threat and after some time I had to fire into those inmates.

16 Q. What part of their bodies did you fire into?

17 A. The area of chest, head.

18 Q. About how many bullets did you fire into the three men?

19 A. I fired some 15 bullets.

20 Q. Can you describe the scene there when you had finished firing the 15

21 bullets at the three old men?

22 A. Excuse me, where was that house?

23 Q. No, no. What did you see after you had immediately fired the

24 bullets?

25 A. I am sorry, I did not quite understand the question.

Page 5260

1 Q. I will move on. What happened next? What was the next thing to

2 happen?

3 A. People were slain and meanwhile Zoran Karajica arrived with a small

4 TAM, blue, and those prisoners were taken off the bar and then we

5 loaded them on to that blue little TAM, and we started to a dump site,

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 there we came to a halt, parked, dragged those three corpses from the

11 truck and dumped them on to that dump site.

12 Q. As you were unloading these corpses, did you notice anything about

13 the dump site?

14 A. Yes, as I was standing on that dump site I saw human skulls, bones,

15 very many cadavers, human, and there was stench.

16 Q. You said a little while ago that it was a little blue TAM, you mean a

17 little blue TAM truck, is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. After you unloaded the corpses at this dump site, did you then return

20 to (redacted)

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What did you feel like when you returned to (redacted)

23 A. I felt sick. I was not feeling well. I threw up. I felt very sick.

24 Q. Did you then see Dragicevic shortly after this?

25 A. Dragicevic brought me a box of ammunition which I fired into those

Page 5261

1 three corpses. Those were about 15 bullets. I was at (redacted)

2 where there was this small structure. I was sitting. He gave me this

3 ammunition and he realised that I was feeling poor and asking for a

4 doctor.

5 Q. What happened then? What was the next thing to happen?

6 A. He summoned a doctor and after a while a Dr. Baja came and Dr.

7 Nevenka, and he called me (redacted) to come into the office

8 and there I was given an injection.

9 Q. What effect did this injection have upon you?

10 A. I felt very strong after some 10 minutes. I did not, I was not quite

11 conscious, not -- excuse me, not that I was totally unconscious, but I

12 did not feel, I began to feel very strong, very powerful and I felt

13 quite differently after that injection.

14 Q. Prior to this day, had you ever taken drugs, had you ever taken drugs

15 that made you feel this particular way?

16 A. Some pills and some syrup I would drink with those pills.

17 Q. But had you ever taken drugs that gave this sort of reaction to you

18 before?

19 A. You mean before?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. No.

22 Q. About dusk on the same day, that is, 5th November 1992, did you see

23 another girl led out of the camp?

24 A. Yes. A girl was taken out then.

25 Q. Did you see who it was that took her out?

Page 5262

1 A. I cannot remember, but there were Bosko Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica,

2 Milan Cavic and Dusko Tadic were there.

3 Q. Did you see where this girl was taken?

4 A. The girl was taken from the primary school and taken into the cellar

5 of the white house where they generally committed murders and rapes.

6 Q. Did you go with them on this occasion or did you stay behind?

7 A. We went with them. They called me to come along.

8 Q. When you went into the basement who did you see there in the

9 basement?

10 A. There was a girl, Zoran Karajica, Milan Cavic and there was Dusko

11 Tadic.

12 Q. Do you remember about how old this girl looked to be?

13 A. That girl was about 17 or 18.

14 Q. Do you remember whether she was a tall person or a short person?

15 A. She was rather tall, fair, thin.

16 Q. Do you remember any of the clothes that she had on?

17 A. As far as I can remember, she had trousers, black with a black belt,

18 and a sports jacket, black shoes and white stockings -- white socks,

19 as far as I can remember.

20 Q. When you went into the basement, when you first went into the

21 basement, what was the girl doing?

22 A. She was struggling. She was trying to defend herself.

23 Q. What were the men doing to the girl, could you see that?

24 A. They were dealing her blows, slapping her face, so that she would

25 stop wrestling away and there was Dusko Tadic who threatened that he

Page 5263

1 would kill her and slit her throat, and she heard that and she was

2 more pleading for help.

3 Q. What did they then do to the girl?

4 A. They stripped her naked and pushed her down on to the mattress. Her

5 eyes were blindfolded, but she was wrestling and then fighting, and

6 after a while Dusko Tadic took out a police baton. He was tapping it

7 on the palm of his hand and the girl was trying to wrestle away and

8 crying and begging, and then Dusko Tadic put the baton into her mouth.

9 Q. What did you do?

10 A. Then I was ordered to undress and then to perform rape.

11 Q. Did you do this?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you think this girl was a virgin or not?

14 A. She was, because as I was entering her I penetrated.

15 Q. Did anyone do anything to you while you were raping this girl?

16 A. Bosko Dragicevic was pushing me down, I cannot remember whether with

17 his foot or a baton, on my back and as I was penetrating the girl and

18 he did not allow me until I finished.

19 Q. After you had raped the girl, what did you then do?

20 A. I got off the girl and I put on my clothes and after that Dusko (sic)

21 Dragicevic took off his belt and he had a pistol and a baton on it,

22 and then he started. I wanted to take this pistol from him with the

23 belt, but he did not allow me to take it, and rather gave it to Dusko

24 Tadic.

25 Q. I just wish to mention something about the transcript. You say

Page 5264

1 "Dusko Dragicevic", did you understand his first name to be "Dusko"?

2 A. No, Bosko Dragicevic. I am sorry.

3 Q. Thank you. You say that Dragicevic then started, did he then start

4 to rape the girl?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When Dragicevic was raping the girl, what did you do?

7 A. I was holding one leg of this girl, as far as I remember, and after

8 that the girl was raped by Dragicevic and then he got off her and then

9 they ordered her to put her clothes on.

10 Q. You said a moment ago in your evidence that you went to take the

11 pistol of Dragicevic but you were not allowed to take it. Do you know

12 why this was, they did not let you take it?

13 A. I think that they thought that I would kill somebody there. When I

14 went (redacted) he took my rifle away from me, because I would

15 not allow somebody to do something. It was very difficult for me and

16 terrible to what he was making me do as well as others, but I was

17 under the orders to do something.

18 Q. On the way back to the camp did they speak to this girl?

19 A. No, I did not, but Dusko Tadic and the other policemen were

20 threatening her that she -- that nobody in the camp must know what

21 happened to her.

22 Q. On the next day, that is 6th November, did you go to work at the camp

23 on that day?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you ask Bosko Dragicevic if you could have the day off?

Page 5265

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Why did you ask for the day off?

3 A. (redacted)

4 Q. What did Dragicevic say to you when you asked him to take the day

5 off?

6 A. He told me that I could not get that day off, but I could get the

7 next day off because there was going to be a check up in the camp.

8 Q. When you say a "check up", do you mean medical check up?

9 A. Yes, a medical check up.

10 Q. Later on that day or that morning was there a medical check up

11 carried on of the guards of the camp?

12 A. Yes, there was a check up of all the guards and I also got an

13 injection, and after a while this Dr. Baja and the nurse, Nevenka,

14 were in the camp with all the inmates who were in the camp, in the

15 school and the co-operative, and after a while they came out and they

16 left towards Kozarac.

17 Q. Did you receive an injection this day similar to the one you had

18 received on the previous day?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did it have a similar effect upon you to the injection that you had

21 on the previous day?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Around noon on that day, did you see another girl being led out of

24 the camp?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 5266

1 Q. Do you know where she was being led from?

2 A. That girl was taken out of the school building and her hands were

3 tied behind her back. As far as I remember, there were Bosko

4 Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica and Cavic. They took the girl towards the

5 white house. After a while Dragicevic called me to come with him.

6 Q. Did you then go?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you got to the white house did you go into the basement again?

9 A. Yes, we did.

10 Q. What happened then when you went into the basement?

11 A. They were taking the clothes off of this girl and they stripped her

12 naked. Then they pushed her down on to the mattress.

13 Q. Can you recall, approximately, how old this girl was?

14 A. That girl had about 20 years.

15 Q. What happened next?

16 A. First, they pushed the girl down on to the mattress and then Zoran

17 Karajica took his clothes off, lay down on the girl to commit the rape

18 and then he performed the rape. After him, they forced me to perform

19 rape of this girl.

20 Q. Was this girl upset and crying when this was all happening?

21 A. Yes, she was trying to break away. She was trying to defend herself,

22 and she was looking for the worst.

23 Q. Do you know a person at the camp, a guard at the camp, by the name of

24 Baltic?

25 A. Dragan?

Page 5267

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. I know him.

3 Q. Was he at the camp?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. About how old was he?

6 A. He was about 40 to 45.

7 Q. Do you know where he came from, what area?

8 A. He was from Prijedor, towards Prijedor, but that was Trnopolje.

9 Q. On the day that this girl was raped, the one you just spoke of, did

10 you see Dragan Baltic?

11 A. He was also there.

12 Q. Did you see him do anything to the girl?

13 A. After my rape of this girl, he took off his clothes and straddled the

14 girl and then he came on her breasts.

15 Q. After this girl was raped where did you go then?

16 A. We returned to the camp. They returned the girl to the school.

17 Q. In the afternoon of the same day, 6th November 1992, did you again

18 see two elderly prisoners being led from the co-operative building?

19 A. I am sorry, the question was a little -- was asked a bit differently

20 with Mr. Niemann.

21 Q. I will ask the question again. In the afternoon of the same day, 6th

22 November 1992, did you see two elderly prisoners being led from the

23 co-operative building?

24 A. Yes, as they were being led from the co-operative building, yes.

25 Q. Did you see who it was that was leading these men?

Page 5268

1 A. I am not sure who took them out, but Zoran Karajica and Cavic and

2 Bosko Dragicevic were present there.

3 Q. Do you know in what direction they were leading these men?

4 A. Those people were taken out of the co-operative and they led them

5 past command. There was a building where it was the headquarters for

6 Dragicevic and Dusko Tadic. Then they led the men past that command

7 building headquarters and to the white house (redacted)

8 (redacted). They brought them to this white house and they were

9 being beaten with batons. They were being beaten. Dragicevic called

10 me to come with him, and in that -- at that time he also took the

11 rifle off my shoulder and he was carrying it. As we arrived to the

12 white house, the two prisoners were tied up to the pole and then I

13 received the order to kill those two old men.

14 Q. The pole they were tied up to, is this the same pole as the other men

15 had been tied up to?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you obey the order to kill these men?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you fire at these men?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What parts of their bodies did you strike with your bullets?

22 A. Well, I was about 15 metres away as Zoran Karajica came from behind

23 to me, and he took the rifle and folded the stock. It is a rifle. It

24 is an automatic rifle that has stock, that means to be folded. Then

25 he cocked it for me and he held my arm and leaned it against my

Page 5269

1 shoulder and ordered me, and he showed me to shoot in the region of

2 the head, of the forehead.

3 Q. Did you do this?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. After you had shot them in the region of the head, what did you then

6 do?

7 A. I killed those inmates, and after that we returned to the camp.

8 Those corpses remained on that pole. I do not know what happened to

9 them, where they were dragged or where they were dumped and who took

10 them off.

11 Q. On the next day, 7th November 1992, did you again go and see Dr.

12 Baja?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Why did you go and see him?

15 A. I was receiving injections. I needed the injections.

16 Q. Were you beginning to depend upon these injections?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did they help you cope with what you were doing at the camp?

19 A. Yes, quite a bit.

20 Q. Why did you have an injection first thing when you got to work on

21 that day? Why did you have the injection then?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Why did you feel that you needed the injection on that day when you

24 arrived at work?

25 A. I knew that there was going to be some -- either some murdering or

Page 5270

1 some taking out of girls to be raped.

2 Q. Shortly after (redacted), did you see

3 two girls being led out of the school building?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you see who it was that led the girls out of the school building?

6 A. Present were Zoran Karajica, Cavic Dragicevic. After a while Dusko

7 Tadic arrived.

8 Q. What happened then? What was the next thing to happen?

9 A. They took out two girls from the school, and then took them out of

10 the camp. They took them past the offices and they took them to the

11 white house. Dragicevic called me to come with him. We went past the

12 white house and we arrived to a shed which was not far from the white

13 house.

14 Q. Were you with them when they arrived at the shed, with these men?

15 A. Yes, with the girls. I am sorry.

16 Q. Yes. Can you describe the shed? What was it made of?

17 A. That shed was made of concrete blocks, called Siporeks.

18 Q. Did it have windows and doors?

19 A. No.

20 Q. What was inside the shed?

21 A. There was a mattress and some wood, some logs of wood.

22 Q. When you went into this shed, what did they do to the girls?

23 A. The girls were untied, their hands were untied, and Dusko Tadic

24 ordered them to undress, that we were not going to undress them

25 because they were dirty and they cried and they begged them not to do

Page 5271

1 this. They had to undress naked and the first girl was pushed down on

2 to the mattress and the second girl was ordered to sit on her face.

3 Q. What happened then?

4 A. When the first girl was lying down on the mattress and the other girl

5 was lying on her face, then Dusko Tadic undressed and lay down on the

6 girl and performed the rape.

7 Q. While Tadic was raping the girl, what were the other men doing?

8 A. They were holding the first girl who was raped by Tadic and the other

9 girl who was sitting on her face as well.

10 Q. After Tadic had raped the girl, what was the next thing to happen?

11 A. They lifted the girl, the first, the girl that was sitting on her

12 face, then they lifted the girl that was raped by Tadic, and then

13 there were two girls so it is more difficult to describe. They pushed

14 down the second girl and they ordered me to rape her.

15 Q. Did you comply with that order?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you ejaculate inside the girl?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. While you were raping this girl, what were the others doing?

20 A. They were holding that girl that was raped by Tadic and this girl

21 that I was raping, and they were laughing from what I was doing, what

22 I was doing with the girl.

23 Q. After the two girls had been raped, what was the next thing to

24 happen?

25 A. The girls, after they were raped, they were ordered to dress. Then

Page 5272

1 they got dressed and Tadic ordered them to beat each other because of

2 some gold, because the girls were threatened that they did, did not --

3 were told not to let anybody know in the camp and that they were also

4 beating each other over some gold for about some 10 minutes. Then

5 Tadic separated them and they were laughing and saying how Balinkas

6 are hating each other because they were beating each other.

7 Q. Tadic ordered them to fight?

8 A. Yes, Tadic.

9 Q. Was there any gold there at all or was this an imaginary fight about

10 gold?

11 A. It was not gold. That was imaginary. It is not imaginary -- that

12 is what they were ordered because they were raped, those girls, so

13 that the other inmates in the camp would not know what happened to

14 them.

15 Q. They were told not to mention the fact that they had been raped?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. After these girls had been raped and after the fight, what happened?

18 What was the next thing that happened?

19 A. They were returned to the camp, to the school building.

20 Q. (redacted)

21 A. (redacted).

22 Q. Later on on the same day, 7th November 1992, was another girl led out

23 of the school building?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember about what time of the day this was?

Page 5273

1 A. I cannot recall exactly, but it was after those girls.

2 Q. Could you see or did you see who it was that led these girls out of

3 the school building?

4 A. There were Zoran Karajica, Cavic Dragicevic and Baltic.

5 Q. Could you see about how old this girl was, were you able to estimate

6 that?

7 A. The girl was around 20.

8 Q. In which direction did they start to take the girl?

9 A. They took her out of the school and then they brought her to the

10 white house and they took her down to the basement of the white house.

11 Q. Were you with them on this occasion?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who told you to join them?

14 A. Dragicevic.

15 Q. What was the lighting like when you arrived at this place?

16 A. Well, as far as I recall, it was pretty dark in that basement,

17 otherwise they were bringing lights with them, so there was a lamp

18 that was lit there.

19 Q. The lamp that was lit, was this like a lantern, was it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What happened when you arrived at this place?

22 A. They stripped the girl completely naked, and they pushed her down on

23 to the mattress and she tried to break away and she tried to defend

24 herself. Bosko Dragicevic performed the rape of that girl.

25 Q. After Dragicevic had raped the girl, what was the next thing to

Page 5274

1 happen?

2 A. Dragicevic raped that girl and then stood up, and then I was ordered

3 to take my clothes off and also to perform the rape of that girl.

4 Q. Did you do that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. After the girl was raped, what happened next?

7 A. She was returned to the camp. She was also threatened that she would

8 be killed if people in the camp learned what had happened to her.

9 Q. Two or three days after this incident, on or about 9th or 10th

10 November 1992, did you see two men being taken from the co-operative

11 building?

12 A. Two prisoners were taken out.

13 Q. Do you remember who it was that took them out?

14 A. Bosko Dragicevic and Baltic.

15 Q. Were they being restrained in any way?

16 A. Their hands were tied on the back. They were led out of the

17 co-operative, taken to the white house and they were also beaten and

18 harassed. They reached that white house and then they were tied to

19 the bar and Dragicevic bid me to come along. So I walked to the white

20 house with him and then he ordered me to commit the murder of those

21 two prisoners, to kill them.

22 I did not want to do it, but I was under a threat that I had

23 to do it. I performed the murder of those two prisoners. Dragicevic

24 ordered me to untie them from the bar. I did. They fell down on the

25 ground (redacted)

Page 5275

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 As I reached that site, I saw very many bones and skulls and

8 human corpses. I realised that very many corpses had been thrown in

9 there. (redacted)

10 (redacted) Dragicevic had threatened me not to talk about what I had

11 seen at that dump site, what was there, and I was under a threat.

12 Q (redacted)

13 A. (redacted).

14 Q. Some days later, on about 15th November 1992, did you see seven

15 elderly men being taken out of the camp?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You have mentioned in evidence so far about Zoran Karajica. Do you

18 know whether or not he had a brother?

19 A. Yes, Zeljko.

20 Q. About how old was Zeljko, can you remember?

21 A. I cannot really remember but he was older than I.

22 Q. Do you think he was in his 20s, 30s or 40s? Can you assist us in

23 that way?

24 A. I cannot remember. He was young, slightly older than I.

25 Q. Who did you see lead the seven men out of the camp on this day?

Page 5276

1 A. Zoran Karajica, Cavic, Zeljko Karajica -- they are brothers -- Bosko

2 Dragicevic.

3 Q. In what direction were they leading these men?

4 A. They led those seven prisoners out of the co-operative, took them

5 towards the white house and they had their hands tied on their backs.

6 They were brought to that white house and they harassed them and beat

7 them, those prisoners. They brought them to that white house. I was

8 on duty (redacted) and was observing what was happening.

9 They brought them to the white house and there they tied them

10 up to that bar. In the meantime, Dragicevic returned, got a rifle

11 from the office and went to that white house and then they performed

12 murders. As far as I can remember, Dragicevic was the first one to

13 fire. Then he turned the rifle over to other policemen and then they

14 fired.

15 Q. After they fired on these seven elderly men, did you see what they

16 did with their bodies?

17 A. They took them off that bar. Zoran Karajica, the one who had the

18 small blue TAM, brought it along so they piled those corpses on to a

19 truck, (redacted)

20 (redacted).

21 Q. On the same day did you see another girl being led from the

22 elementary school?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you remember who it was that led this girl out of the school?

25 A. As far as I can remember, it was Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica and

Page 5277

1 Cavic.

2 Q. Was this girl being restrained or tied up in any way?

3 A. When they led her out of the school, they tied her hands at the back

4 and then they brought her out of the school and went past the

5 co-operative to the exit gate and took her past the office and they

6 took her to the cellar, to the basement, of the white house.

7 Dragicevic bid me to come along. I left (redacted) and I came

8 with him, but he took my rifle off my shoulder and left it in his

9 office.

10 Q. Were you able to estimate, approximately, how old this girl was?

11 A. That girl was about 17 or 18.

12 Q. Do you recall the colour and style, the way she had her hair made up?

13 A. She had long hair, plaited, as far as I can remember.

14 Q. When you got into the basement what did you see?

15 A. When we entered it, they were stripping the girl and they stripped

16 her naked, pushed her down on to the mattress and then ordered me to

17 perform the rape of this girl.

18 Q. Did you rape the girl?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was this girl distressed at the time this was all happening?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did they say anything to the girl?

23 A. They told her that no girl would leave the camp without and not be

24 pregnant.

25 Q. After this rape did you then go back (redacted)

Page 5278

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In the afternoon of the same day, did you see them take out another

3 girl from the elementary school building?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you see who it was that took this girl out?

6 A. There were also Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica, Cavic.

7 Q. Can you remember what the colour of the girl's hair was?

8 A. As far as I can remember from before, it is three years since, the

9 girl had fair hair, curly.

10 Q. Where did they take this girl to?

11 A. Also took her out of the school and they took her passed, took her

12 out from the camp grounds and took her to the cellar, to the basement.

13 Q. As they took the girl out of the school, were you spoken to?

14 A. Dragicevic told me to come with him. (redacted). I came

15 with him. We reached that white house. We entered the basement. The

16 girl was undressed, pushed down on to the mattress. The girl was

17 trying to break away from them and was crying and Dragicevic said he

18 would rape her first because she was fighting and crying. So

19 Dragicevic performed the rape of that girl. Then they forced me to

20 also perform the rape of that girl.

21 Q. Did you rape the girl?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did anyone other than you and Dragicevic rape this girl, that you can

24 remember?

25 A. I cannot remember.

Page 5279

1 Q. After the girl had been raped, was she then led back to the school?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you again return to (redacted)

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Several days later, on about 18th November 1992, did you see six

6 prisoners being taken out of the camp?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you remember about what time of the day this was when they were

9 taken out?

10 A. It was, perhaps, somewhere around noon or in the afternoon.

11 Q. Did you see who it was that led them out of the camp?

12 A. As far as I recall, it was Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica, Cavic and

13 after a certain time (redacted)

14 Q. Where did they take these six men to?

15 A. They took them out of the co-operative and to the white house where

16 they performed murders before.

17 Q. This person you have mentioned, (redacted), did you know of him

18 from the camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us, approximately, what age he was?

21 A. Roughly my age, (redacted)

22 Q. Do you know where he came from?

23 A. (redacted)

24 Q. What did they do with (redacted)

25 A. He went with those prisoners and, as far as I remember, he performed

Page 5280

1 the killing of those six prisoners.

2 Q. As he was being led towards the white house, did they do anything

3 with his rifle, can you recall?

4 A. I cannot.

5 Q. After these six men had been killed, did you see what they did to the

6 corpses?

7 A. They were taken away, that blue TAM which Zoran Karajica had. They

8 were taken to a dump site.

9 Q. Did you stay at (redacted) right throughout this incident?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you have a clear view of what you saw happen?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. One morning around 25th November 1992, do you recall seeing 10

14 elderly prisoners being led out of the camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When they took these men out of the camp, what did they then do to

17 them or with them?

18 A. Those people were taken out of the co-operative. Their hands were

19 tied at the back. Meanwhile, Dusko Tadic had arrived. They led those

20 prisoners out on to the asphalt. They were shoved on to a truck, on

21 to a van. We -- and they started towards the railway station,

22 Omarska, and they brought them to the white house and Dusko Tadic was

23 there too and Dragicevic bid me to come with him.

24 He took the rifle off my shoulder. We walked past the office

25 and reached that white house. Those prisoners had already been tied

Page 5281

1 to the bar and they were also harassed. Tadic then turned to me --

2 well, no, he did not address me. He said, "Guy, come here to perform

3 the killing of these 10 prisoners, to kill them", and I said, "Why me?

4 Why do I have to do it?" He said nothing in reply.

5 One of those prisoners heard him order me to kill them, heard

6 Tadic order me that. He then spoke to Tadic and said why is he

7 killing them since they had given him money and gold. Tadic said

8 nothing. He was watching me. Then he approached two of those two

9 prisoners, took out a pistol from the holster and killed those two

10 prisoners right into the head.

11 Then he came to me and ordered me to kill the remaining eight.

12 I was terrified because I knew that Dusko Tadic was the Commander of

13 the camp. I was standing and Zoran Karajica, Dragicevic and Cavic

14 approached, and Zoran Karajica came from behind and stole the rifle

15 off my back and they ordered me that I had to kill the remaining

16 eight. Then I complied with the order and I had to kill those eight.

17 I fired 10 bullets, and I was firing at those two whom Tadic

18 had held and I was ordered to fire off the remaining 20 bullets, that

19 is, to fire two more bullets at each of those bodies. I emptied the

20 cartridge and Zoran Karajica came with a little TAM and they took off

21 those corpses, those 10 from the bar, and shoved them on to the truck,

22 on to the TAM. They were covered with some kind of canvas.

23 Then Dusko Tadic went to the car and started for Kozarac and

24 left in the direction of Omarska. Then we -- I went with Zoran

25 Karajica and Cavic in that little TAM. (redacted)

Page 5282

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted), we arrived there and also awaited

3 Dusko Tadic who was not there. After some time Dusko Tadic drove in

4 with a man, I believe his name was "Dedo". That is how he addressed

5 him.

6 Q. (redacted), was that like a front end loader type

7 earth moving machine?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did the driver of that vehicle arrive in a car with Dusko Tadic

10 separately from yourselves?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What did the driver of this earth moving machine do once he arrived

13 at the scene?

14 A. He boarded it and then started digging a hole. As he started digging

15 the hole, and I was standing nearby, and I could see that he was

16 bringing out lots of bones, human bones, skulls.

17 Q. Can you describe the smell when this happened?

18 A. Yes, the stench was very, was very overwhelming. This earth mover,

19 then when after it completed this pit, it drew those bodies into that

20 pit and then started covering it up.

21 Q. So the bodies that you had brought there on the TAM truck were then

22 loaded into the hole that the earth moving machine had dug?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you then head back in the TAM truck to Trnopolje camp?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5283

1 Q. On the way back to the camp, did you ask someone about the grave that

2 you had seen?

3 A. I asked Zoran Karajica whence all those human bones, those skulls dug

4 there next to that dredger, and he told me that they were killed in

5 the area of Kozarac and Trnopolje, people, and that they had been

6 interred there, and that there were about 3,000 thrown into that pit

7 and buried.

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 Q. (redacted), around 6th December 1992, did you see

17 two old men being led out of the camp?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who led these men out of the camp?

20 A. They were Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica and Cavic, and Dusko Tadic

21 arrived. They led those two prisoners out of the school -- no,

22 excuse me, out of the co-operative -- I am slightly confused -- from

23 the co-operative. They took them along the road which leads towards

24 Kozarac. They tied those two old men. They took them -- they took

25 them (redacted) on the road and several buildings away from

Page 5284

1 the headquarters, they took them through an orchard, and brought them

2 next to this white house where there was a fruit orchard. Dragicevic

3 bid me to come with him. He took my rifle from me and I came with him

4 to the white house. We walked along the road towards Kozarac. Then

5 we turned right and reached that orchard.

6 Q. What state were these old men in? Can you describe their physical

7 appearance?

8 A. They were unkempt, they had long beards, long hair like old people,

9 white.

10 Q. When you arrived at the orchard what did you see?

11 A. When we arrived in the orchard, those two old men were tied to tree

12 trunks and both their legs and arms. Zoran Karajica and Cavic beat

13 them. They sat on them and beat them. Dusko Tadic was standing a

14 little way away. I and Dragicevic reached that orchard. I was

15 standing near Zoran Karajica as he was sitting on that old man and

16 hitting him with a knife. He was cutting his beard.

17 Q. Did you see blood on the faces of the old men?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were the old men making any noise at the time when you arrived?

20 A. No, because their mouths were tied.

21 Q. Did they have a cloth or something across their face?

22 A. Eyes, you mean?

23 Q. No, across their mouth?

24 A. They had some rags. They were gagged with some rags or some

25 handkerchiefs or something, and over that their mouths were tied so

Page 5285

1 that they would not scream out.

2 Q. What then happened to you?

3 A. I was standing next to Zoran Karajica next to that body -- next to

4 that man, I am sorry. I was standing and then Zoran Karajica caught

5 me by the arm and pulled me down on that man. I fell on him. As I was

6 starting to stand up, and then he ordered me not to stand up, to

7 straddle the man. I was sitting on that man and he offered me the

8 knife. Bosko Dragicevic approached me from behind with a rifle and

9 then he pointed the rifle at my back. Zoran Karajica was holding the

10 head and pressing it down to the ground below the chin, and I was

11 crying and I was trying to break away. I did not want to do it.

12 They ordered me to slit that man's throat. I was saying that

13 I could not do that. All that time Dragicevic was standing behind me

14 with a rifle. Tadic was nearby. I turned to the left and I saw I

15 could do nothing because otherwise I was threatened that I would be

16 killed. I turned left my head and I was looking at the other old man,

17 and Tadic was beating that other old man and turned his head so that

18 he could see how I was butchering that old man.

19 I drew the knife across his head. I discarded the knife and

20 the blood spurted on my uniform. I wanted to stand up from that old

21 man, but they did not allow me until he expired. When he expired, they

22 lifted me off that old man and put me on the other one. I was

23 struggling again, fighting and crying, saying I could not do that.

24 Zoran Karajica took the knife which I had thrown away, wiped it off

25 the beard of that old man, the knife which was bloody. I sat down on

Page 5286

1 the other. Dusko Tadic put his foot on his face, on his temple, and

2 pressed his head against the ground.

3 Q. This is the old man, put his foot on the temple of the old man?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The first old man that you cut with a knife, it says in the

6 translation you drew the knife across his head. Was it across his

7 head or across his throat?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Across his throat?

10 A. Across his throat.

11 Q. With the second old man, once Tadic had put his boot on the head of

12 the old man, what was the next thing to happen? What happened then?

13 A. Zoran Karajica gave me the knife, so as to butcher that old man too.

14 I could not. Dusko Tadic drew out a pistol, pointed it at my head.

15 It was a 7.62 pistol. He pointed it at my head, at my forehead, and

16 told me that I had to do it. Bosko Dragicevic pointed the rifle at my

17 back and then Bosko told him not to kill me, that I would do it at

18 least to prick the man's throat with the knife, and I could do nothing

19 but prick that man's throat with the knife, so I stabbed this knife

20 into his throat.

21 Q. You stabbed the knife rather than pricked the knife, is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. After this happened, what happened? What was the next thing to

24 happen?

25 A. I put the knife into that man's throat and then Cavic and Karajica

Page 5287

1 lifted me off that body and I went with Dragicevic to the

2 headquarters, and then he gave me a uniform. Tadic, Karajica and

3 Cavic stayed behind in that orchard and I do not know what happened to

4 those corpses then and what went on. I was given another uniform (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. After this incident were you feeling sick?

7 A. Yes, Dr. Baja came and I was given an injection.

8 Q. Several days later, around 9th or 10th ----

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Niemann, we will stand in recess for

10 20 minutes.

11 (11.35 a.m.)

12 (Short Adjournment)

13 (11.55 a.m.)

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, would you continue please, with witness

15 L?

16 MR. NIEMANN: I have asked the witness to be brought in, your Honour.

17 WITNESS L, recalled

18 Examined by MR. NIEMANN, continued.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated. Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

21 MR. NIEMANN: Witness, several days later after the last incident, around

22 about 9th or 10th December 1992, did you see 10 men being led out of

23 the co-operative building?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember about what time of day this was that they were

Page 5288

1 brought out?

2 A. Somewhere around noon.

3 Q. Did you see who it was that was leading them out of the building?

4 A. There was Zoran Karajica, Cavic, Bosko Dragicevic and then Dusko

5 Tadic arrived and Zeljko Karajica.

6 Q. Do you know, approximately, what age group these men were, the 10 men

7 that were taken out?

8 A. I cannot recall exactly.

9 Q. Were they elderly men or were they young men? Can you help us that

10 way?

11 A. They were sort of elderly, of 55 to 80 years. Those were the ones

12 that were in the camp.

13 Q. What did they do with these old men when they led them out of the

14 co-operative building?

15 A. They were taken out of the co-operative building and taken towards

16 the railway station. The police went along with them and Dusko Tadic

17 also. They came to the intersection that leads towards Prijedor,

18 Omarska and Kozarac. They started towards Omarska. On the asphalt,

19 Dragicevic called me to come along and I came along. He took the

20 rifle off my shoulder.

21 We followed these men, and they led the men by some houses and

22 they took -- (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted). Dragicevic and myself

25 arrived after him, (redacted)

Page 5289

1 (redacted), and I was there nearby, and Dusko Tadic ordered them to

2 start digging graves.

3 Q. When you say they took tools, were these shovels that they took?

4 A. Yes, shovels.

5 Q. Was it the old men, the 10 old men that took the shovels?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. (redacted)?

8 A. (redacted).

9 Q. When you arrived at this place, what happened after the order was

10 given for them to dig the graves?

11 A. I was standing guard, (redacted). I

12 separated from the group. That was my order, to be a guard. The

13 prisoners started digging their graves and after some time they dug

14 them out.

15 Q. After they dug out their graves, what was the next thing to happen?

16 A. Then Tadic came close to them and told them to put away the tools and

17 to stand by the graves, and they started tying their hands on their

18 backs. One of them, when he saw that the others were having their

19 hands tied, he dropped the tool and started running away. Then Zoran

20 Karajica saw this, him running away, and he killed him with a short

21 burst of bullets.

22 Q. When this prisoner ran away and was shot, did someone say something

23 to you?

24 A. Then Dusko Tadic approached and said that if that prisoner had run

25 away, who was prevented by Zoran Karajica, that I would have been

Page 5290

1 killed and I said that I did not see him, so I defended myself.

2 Q. Did one of the prisoners then speak?

3 A. Yes, he said, he asked Tadic why he was killing them, that he would

4 like to know about his son, then he would not regret dying. Tadic

5 replied that he would not find out about his son, that prisoner, that

6 he was going to be killed and that he would not know who killed him --

7 I am sorry, that refers to his son.

8 Q. That he would be killed and he would not know who had killed his

9 son?

10 A. That his son would not know who killed this prisoner.

11 Q. I see. What was the next thing that happened?

12 A. They tied -- by the way, Tadic hit that one with the rifle butt from

13 behind and the man fell down, and then I was ordered to kill the other

14 nine prisoners.

15 Q. Did Dragicevic then give you an order in relation to the killing?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did he say to you?

18 A. To approach the remaining prisoners and to shoot at them.

19 Q. Did he say where you should shoot at them?

20 A. He told me to shoot in their heads, and I was four to five metres

21 away from them. Those prisoners were spaced six to seven metres

22 apart.

23 Q. Did you then carry out the order?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After you had killed these prisoners, were you then told to do

Page 5291

1 something?

2 A. When I killed those prisoners, then after me, Zeljko Karajica was

3 shooting at those corpses and then Dragicevic ordered that those

4 corpses be buried there. As we were burying them, Tadic gave

5 Dragicevic an order to make the graves not visible where those people

6 were being buried.

7 Q. Did they tell you how you were to make the graves not visible?

8 A. To level them so that it is not seen as a grave and to bring the

9 undergrowth and the berries that were there.

10 Q. The berries that were there? Were you to cover them with bushes and

11 grass?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. After this happened, did you return to the camp?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Several days later, on 13th or 14th December 1992, did Dragicevic

16 call you into his office (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did he say to you (redacted)

20 A. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 Q. On the next day did you see two elderly men being taken out of the

24 camp?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5292

1 Q. About what time of the day was this that you saw this happen?

2 A. I cannot quite recall, but those two elderly prisoners were taken

3 out. They also took them to that white house. Dragicevic called me

4 and told me that those two prisoners, that their sons had escaped from

5 Kozarac (redacted)

6 (redacted). But I did not believe that.

7 Q. What happened then to the old men?

8 A. Then, under the orders of Dragicevic, I committed the murders of

9 those two prisoners. I returned (redacted) and I do not know

10 what happened to them afterwards. They remained on that pole.

11 Q. Towards the end of December, did you see another elderly man taken

12 out of the camp?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you see who it was that took this old man out?

15 A. It was Dusko Tadic and Bosko Dragicevic, and Dusko Tadic told me that

16 I was guilty because of that first man who started to run away and

17 Zoran Karajica then killed him, that I had to commit -- I had to kill

18 this man. That was the punishment.

19 Q. Did he say that for merely allowing the old man to escape from the

20 grave site when the 10 old men had dug their grave that you had to

21 carry out this killing as punishment for merely allowing that man to

22 escape?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you carry out the order to kill this man?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5293

1 Q. Where did you shoot this man?

2 A. I shot in the region of the legs. After about three minutes and then

3 Dragicevic ordered me to kill him, and then I shot in the region of

4 his chest.

5 Q. Were you ordered to shoot in the region of the legs?

6 A. Yes, in the calf.

7 Q. Who told you that?

8 A. Dragicevic.

9 Q. What did he say to you about that?

10 A. To stay on a few minutes after I shot him in the legs, and for about

11 three minutes I did not shoot this man and then he ordered me to shoot

12 him in the chest.

13 Q. Apart from the rapes that you had participated in outside the camp,

14 do you know whether anybody was raped inside the camp itself?

15 A. Yes. There were six girls.

16 Q. Where were these girls raped, these six girls?

17 A. There was a house -- there were several buildings on the grounds

18 that were about 100 metres away from the camp.

19 Q. Were these buildings occupied?

20 A. They were previously but they were destroyed.

21 Q. What sort of buildings were these, what building was this?

22 A. It was a house. It had a balcony. It was -- it had a top floor.

23 Q. Where was it in relation to the school? Was it in the front of the

24 school or behind the school?

25 A. Behind the school.

Page 5294

1 Q. Were these girls all raped together or were they raped separately?

2 A. They were taken out in twos, in three times.

3 Q. On three separate occasions did this happen?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you remember when it was that the first two girls were raped,

6 approximately?

7 A. Sometime in December.

8 Q. Do you remember what time of the day it was that this occurred?

9 A. In the afternoon, two girls were taken out, their hands tied behind

10 their backs and there was Zoran Karajica, Cavic, and Dragicevic and

11 there was also Dusko Tadic there. They brought the girls into the

12 house. They called me in. I entered the house, and I saw one girl

13 completely naked. There was a military type of bed in this house. I

14 do not know who brought this girl that was naked, who brought her to

15 the bed and who tied her hands, but I know that Dusko Tadic committed

16 the rape of that girl and then the order was that I rape this girl

17 that Dusan Tadic raped.

18 Q. How was she tied up? Can you explain to us how she was tied to the

19 bed?

20 A. Her hand -- her arms and her legs were tied to the bed posts.

21 Q. While this girl was raped, what happened to the other girl?

22 A. Her hands were tied and she was blindfolded and her mouth was gagged,

23 and she was by the bed post.

24 Q. Do you remember who it was that raped this girl?

25 A. The other girl?

Page 5295

1 Q. Yes, the other girl.

2 A. As far as I remember, it was Cavic and Zoran Karajica.

3 Q. Were there any instructions given about how people were to leave this

4 house after the rapes had occurred?

5 A. Everybody left one by one, and one by one girl was taken out of that

6 house and returned into the school building.

7 Q. Do you understand why it was that you left the building in this

8 manner or this way?

9 A. Because there were a lot of prisoners in that school and they could

10 see.

11 Q. The next day were two more girls taken out from the school?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who took the girls out on this occasion, do you remember?

14 A. I cannot quite say who took the girls out, but Tadic and myself were

15 raping.

16 Q. Did you see Tadic rape the girl, one of these girls?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you rape one of the girls?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Several days later, were two more girls taken out of the building and

21 brought to this house?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Did you see who was there on this occasion?

24 A. There was Dusko Tadic, Zoran Karajica, Zeljko, Cavic and Bosko

25 Dragicevic.

Page 5296

1 Q. Were these girls restrained or tied up in any way?

2 A. They were tied.

3 Q. Where were they tied?

4 A. They were tied to the bed.

5 Q. Were both these girls raped?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who raped the girls on this occasion?

8 A. Zeljko Karajica, Dusko Tadic and I was there.

9 Q. Did you participate in this rape?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were both these girls raped at the same time or at different times?

12 A. One was in the morning and the other one towards the evening.

13 Q. Did you rape both the girls on that day or only one of them?

14 A. One girl.

15 Q. Did you see whether Tadic raped both the girls on that day or only

16 one of them?

17 A. Both.

18 Q. By (redacted), had your psychological condition

19 deteriorated to the point that you felt it was necessary to leave the

20 camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you ask permission to leave the camp or did you just go?

23 A. I simply left. I escaped.

24 Q. When you escaped, did you leave the area of opstina Prijedor?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5297

1 Q. Did you find a place where you could hide?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How long did you stay in this place?

4 A. I was there about 10 days.

5 Q. During this time that you were there hiding, did you begin to suffer

6 the effects of not having the drugs that you had been given?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you eventually get over this, the effects of that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. After that where did you go? I am sorry, I will withdraw that

11 question, your Honour. After you had been hiding in this place, did

12 you return to the opstina Prijedor?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How long did you stay then in opstina Prijedor?

15 A. About a year and a half.

16 Q. During that period of year and a half did you obtain work?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you hear whether or not anyone had been searching for you since

19 you left the camp?

20 A. Yes, Bosko Dragicevic and some policemen were looking for me.

21 Q. Were they able to find you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. On (redacted), did you then join the army?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where did you do your military training?

Page 5298

1 A. (redacted).

2 Q. Can you just tell us, in very general terms, where that is?

3 A. (redacted)

4 (redacted).

5 Q. After you had finished your military training, did you then go to the

6 front?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where at the front were you stationed?

9 A. I was at (redacted)

10 Q. Can you remember what time this was (redacted)

11 A. It was around (redacted).

12 Q. When you were fighting at the front were you injured?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How were you injured?

15 A. I was wounded in my right side with a sniper.

16 Q. Were you shot?

17 A. Some Bosnian Army fired.

18 Q. When you were shot were you then captured?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you taken as prisoner?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who took you as prisoner?

23 A. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. Were you in the Army of the Republika Srpska?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5299

1 Q. Approximately, when were you captured, can you remember, or taken

2 prisoner, can you remember that?

3 A. (redacted)

4 Q. Once you were taken prisoner, where were you taken to?

5 A. I came to the detention (redacted) and that is where I was.

6 Q. What is at (redacted)? What is there? What is at this place?

7 A. There was army.

8 Q. Is this an army base of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How long did they keep you at (redacted) for, approximately?

11 A. About one month.

12 Q. From where did you go after you left (redacted)?

13 A. We came to (redacted).

14 Q. Were you still kept as a prisoner when you were brought to (redacted)?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where in (redacted) were you taken?

17 A. I came to the (redacted).

18 Q. Can you remember, approximately, what date you arrived at the

19 (redacted)?

20 A. I cannot remember exactly. It was in (redacted).

21 Q. Before you were captured in (redacted) and during the period you

22 were held prisoner up until (redacted), had you heard whether or not

23 Dusko Tadic -- what had happened to him?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever watch television while you were in Prijedor during '93,

Page 5300

1 '94 and when you were in the army camp?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you ever read anything in the newspaper during this time about

4 what had happened to Dusko Tadic?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When you were captured by the army, by the army of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, did they question you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did they ask you about?

10 A. They asked me about my arrival in the army, where was I, what army

11 did I belong in, where did I go to do my military service.

12 Q. Were you asked about the Trnopolje camp and what you had done there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who was it that asked you this? Was it the (redacted) people or

15 was it the military people at (redacted)?

16 A. They asked me at the (redacted) or the (redacted).

17 Q. When was the name Dusko Tadic first brought up in this interrogation,

18 in these interrogations?

19 A. Previously, they asked me if I knew Dusko Tadic, whether I had ever

20 seen him, and I told them that I had been receiving humanitarian aid

21 in Kozarac and that I knew Dusko Tadic and that I had seen him in

22 Kozarac.

23 Q. When you were in (redacted) were a number of statements taken from you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. (redacted)

Page 5301

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 Q. Has anyone offered you any inducements or promises or favours in

19 exchange for you giving evidence in these proceedings?

20 A. No.

21 Q. I would just like to take you back, if I may, to have a look at some

22 Exhibits for me and tell me whether or not you recognise the

23 photographs that I am showing. Might the witness be shown firstly

24 Exhibit 310? Witness, could you look at that photograph for me,

25 please, and tell me if you recognise the building that you see there?

Page 5302

1 A. I do.

2 Q. What is that building?

3 A. The school.

4 Q. Where is the school, do you remember?

5 A. Trnopolje.

6 Q. Did that school form part of the camp at Trnopolje?

7 A. This is the school which is in what was the camp ----

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. --- in Trnopolje.

10 Q. Perhaps they could just be put on to the screen so we can see? Thank

11 you. Might that be, that Exhibit be returned to the Registrar and

12 could the witness be please shown Exhibit 304? Just looking at Exhibit

13 304, witness, can you tell me what that is a photograph of?

14 A. The school.

15 Q. Again, what school is it?

16 A. This is the Trnopolje school from the -- which faces Kozarac.

17 Q. Perhaps that could be placed on the screen? Might the Exhibit be

18 returned to the Registrar? Would you look now for me, please, at

19 Exhibit 303? Do you recognise the building that is shown in that

20 photograph?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. What building is that?

23 A. The co-operative.

24 Q. Where is that building?

25 A. Trnopolje.

Page 5303

1 Q. Did that building form part of the camp at Trnopolje?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Might that photograph be returned to the Registrar and might the

4 witness be shown Exhibit 302? Witness, do you recognise that

5 photograph?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. What is it a photograph of?

8 A. It depicts the road from Kozarac to Trnopolje.

9 Q. I would ask you to put that on the screen and point to something for

10 me. Thank you. Just on the machine itself, not on the television

11 set, can you point to the direction of Kozarac on that photograph?

12 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph] This is the direction

13 towards Kozarac and then you come to this cross section -- sorry, do

14 you have to hear me?

15 Q. Yes. You need to try to point to it and then speak into the

16 microphone, if you can. So point to it, just hold the pointer there

17 and then tell us what you are talking about.

18 A. Here is the asphalt towards Kozarac, to the railway station. This

19 road is towards Prijedor. To the right is towards Omarska. What you

20 see here, this is the transformer substation and there is a shed. Not

21 far from the shed is dom, the co-operative, and from it you can see

22 part of the school, as you can see here.

23 Q. As you are coming down the road from Kozarac towards the railway

24 station in Trnopolje, is the co-operative building and the school on

25 your right-hand side or your left-hand side, as you come from Kozarac

Page 5304

1 down the road to Trnopolje?

2 A. Right.

3 JUDGE STEPHEN: You have just referred for the first time in the last few

4 minutes to the co-operative building which was much referred to in

5 evidence. Is that the same as the dom?

6 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

7 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

8 MR. NIEMANN: [To the witness]: The white house that you spoke of where

9 many of the prisoners were taken, as you come down the road from

10 Kozarac towards the railway station at Trnopolje, is that on the

11 right-hand side or on the left-hand side of the road as you come down

12 from Kozarac?

13 A. Left.

14 Q. Thank you. Might that photograph be returned. As far as you know,

15 what was the nationality or ethnic group of the prisoners and the

16 young girls that were taken out of the camp and either murdered or

17 raped?

18 A. They were of Muslim nationality.

19 Q. Earlier in your evidence, I think yesterday in your evidence, you

20 described a building as having one storey. By that description how

21 many floors do you mean by "one storey"?

22 A. The ground floor and one floor, upper floor.

23 Q. Also in your evidence yesterday you referred to sideburns being the

24 shape of someone's hair on their head. What is your understanding of

25 sideburns in your language?

Page 5305

1 A. It is a man whose hair is receding on the sides of his forehead.

2 Q. Witness, I now ask you, if you would please, to look around the

3 courtroom and tell me if you see the person that you know and

4 recognise as Dusko Tadic that you saw at this camp in Trnopolje and in

5 the building in Kozarac?

6 A. Dusko Tadic.

7 Q. The person you are pointing to, would you please describe where he

8 sits in the courtroom and the clothes that he has on, as best you can

9 see?

10 A. He is sitting on the left side.

11 Q. Can you describe the clothes that he has on?

12 A. He is wearing civilians clothes.

13 Q. What colour is his coat?

14 A. He has a blue coat, a jacket sorry. He has a shirt.

15 Q. Might the record reflect, your Honour?

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

17 identified the accused.

18 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination Mr. Kay?

20 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. Thank you.

21 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY.

22 Q. Witness, could you tell me if you have ever given any interviews to

23 the television?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Or to the newspapers?

Page 5306

1 A. No.

2 Q. Have you been interviewed by anyone other than those you have told us

3 about in (redacted) and elsewhere in Bosnia-Herzegovina concerning these

4 matters?

5 A. To be on television?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. No.

8 Q. You have told us about being interviewed by the (redacted) in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina and by (redacted). Have any other people

10 interviewed you about these matters?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You are quite sure you have not spoken to anyone from a newspaper, a

13 journalist?

14 A. I did not.

15 Q. When you were arrested by the troops of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you were

16 at that time wounded, is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What company of the army of the Republika Srpska were you serving

19 with at the time?

20 A. Excuse me, your Lordship, may I say it or do I not say it?

21 Q. I would like you to identify the unit you were in at the time that

22 you were taken prisoner?

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me. Mr. Niemann?

24 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, just excuse me a second. No, we consider the

25 witness ought to answer the question, your Honour. We do not wish to

Page 5307

1 make an objection. We do not wish to raise any objection to the

2 question.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Witness, you should respond to the question, please.

4 MR. KAY: Shall I repeat it, your Honour, as I might be able to express it

5 rather more clearly than I did before?

6 [To the witness]: Can you describe to me the name of the unit

7 you were serving in at the time that you were arrested by the troops

8 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. (redacted).

10 Q. Where is the base of the (redacted)

11 A. (redacted).

12 Q. Had you served (redacted) during your time of mobilization with

13 the Republika Srpska Army (redacted)

14 (redacted)?

15 A. (redacted).

16 Q. What was your rank (redacted) and what work were you involved in?

17 A. I had no rank. I was just a private (redacted).

18 Q. Were you in the infantry or in any other unit?

19 A. Infantry. Infantry.

20 Q. So you joined the infantry (redacted) on what date?

21 A. (redacted).

22 Q. When you joined (redacted) did you have your military book with

23 you?

24 A. Yes, I did, but I had left it (redacted) in the military barracks.

25 Q. Were the details of your service (redacted) entered in your

Page 5308

1 military book?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. (redacted)

4 A. (redacted).

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 5309

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Page 5312

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9 (redacted)

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11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (1.05 p.m.)

15 (Luncheon Adjournment)

16

17 (2.30 p.m.)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

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Page 5313

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Page 5318

1 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 WITNESS L, recalled.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, how long do you anticipate that you will

18 need to complete cross-examination?

19 MR. KAY: I think I will be the afternoon, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you think you will finish by 5.30?

21 MR. KAY: I am hopeful, I cannot promise it, but I know that the

22 proceedings are on course to finish by the end of this week.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are hoping to finish on Thursday actually.

24 MR. KAY: I think there is a good chance.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Good, thank you.

Page 5319

1 Cross-examined by MR. KAY, continued.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated and we are still in closed

3 session. Mr. Kay, you may continue with cross-examination. Please be

4 seated.

5 MR. KAY: I am much obliged, your Honour.

6

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

8 Q. (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. Thank you. You told the Court that after you left Trnopolje camp

14 you went into hiding for 10 days in opstina Prijedor, is that not

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I do not think that is a correct recital of the

18 evidence. He went into hiding outside of opstina Prijedor. I have

19 not checked the transcript. It may be that the transcript does not

20 read that way, but that was certainly my question.

21 MR. KAY: It is my note and I will be able to deal with this, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Outside of opstina?

23 MR. KAY: Yes, I was not really interested in this portion of the evidence

24 but .....

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, go ahead.

Page 5320

1 MR. KAY [To the witness]: After 10 days of being in hiding, did you

2 return to opstina Prijedor?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. There you told us that you remained for one and a half years before

5 joining the army?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you say you returned to opstina Prijedor, which part of opstina

8 Prijedor did you return to?

9 A. (redacted)

10 Q. You say that you were in hiding from Bosko Dragicevic and policemen

11 who were looking for you, yes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If you were in (redacted) for that length of time, did you not move

14 around, did you not walk around, did people not know that you were

15 there?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What about the people that were friends of yours, fellow refugees

18 that you have told us about, did they know you were there?

19 A. No.

20 Q. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour ----

23 MR. KAY: I am sorry.

24 MR. NIEMANN: --- I must object to questions about where the witness was

25 at these particular times in the particular towns. His evidence was

Page 5321

1 that he returned to the (redacted) area. The questioning

2 since that moment has been continually concentrating on (redacted). The

3 witness has not said he was at (redacted). I object to any question

4 which either suggests he was at (redacted)

5 (redacted).

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is the basis for the objection?

7 MR. NIEMANN: Because, your Honours, in my submission, it leads to ----

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you saying it is misleading or that that is not

9 what the witness testified, or are you saying that it would violate

10 the November order granting protective measures?

11 MR. NIEMANN: I am saying it violates the order granting protective

12 measures in that it provides information relating (redacted)

13 (redacted).

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 MR. NIEMANN: It could well do.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

18 MR. KAY: I do not mean to cause difficulties because, as the Court can

19 see, I am trying to cross-examine. I did have this information in a

20 statement which is how I was able to discount one place and put to him

21 that it was (redacted) .

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So you are saying that the Prosecutor waived?

23 MR. KAY: It was a statement disclosed to the Defence and it is an area of

24 evidence with which I am ----

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why do you not have the statement marked for

Page 5322

1 identification purposes and offer the statement? If you have been

2 given it, and we are now trying to get into areas which, at least, the

3 Prosecutor claims would be objectionable, if you have been given it,

4 it seems to me the argument may be that they have waived this request.

5 Of course, I do not know whether that will get past our order

6 granting their request, but if you have it in the statement, why do

7 you not offer the statement?

8 MR. KAY: Your Honours provided a solution there and if I mark it, it may

9 be of help.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Prosecutor may have an objection, but we will

11 hear it, but that is their problem. If they give you the information,

12 then they have given it to you.

13 MR. KAY: Yes, I am not meaning to cause them difficulties.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No. You are cross-examining. Please go ahead.

15 MR. KAY: Thank you.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you want that marked? Is that what you want to

17 do?

18 MR. KAY: I am just doing it now, your Honour, yes. The statement is in

19 English when I look at it and there is no Serbo-Croat of this

20 statement which was later disclosed to us. I will see what I can do.

21 Witness, I would like you to look at this statement which was,

22 apparently, a statement made by you which I tender as D33.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Get the witness to identify his signature on the

24 statement, that he can do, whether it is English or Serbo-Croat, and

25 then you read the statement and then we have the benefit of

Page 5323

1 interpretation and the witness can then hear your interpretation. The

2 Prosecutor can check the English version to make sure you are reading

3 it correctly. Do you want to do that?

4 MR. KAY: Everything has been crossed out on the statement, your Honour,

5 including his signature. It has just got "L" at the top of the page.

6 Unless someone on the other side of the courtroom has got an original

7 without these matters redacted, it is the statement dated (redacted)

8 (redacted).

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Maybe we can go to another area and then at the

10 recess we will see what we can do with the statement, if that will

11 help.

12 MR. KAY: Yes. [To the witness]: Perhaps if you would just look at that

13 page where there is a yellow highlight? Perhaps if the statement

14 would be handed back to me, I will provide the witness with the place.

15 Thank you. Witness, you will see highlighted in yellow with a blue

16 circle the name of a place in opstina Prijedor. Is that the place

17 where you stayed for one and a half years -- do not say the name of

18 the place, but just agree or disagree with me?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Could the statement be handed back to me, please?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Have you ever said that you stayed in that place before joining the

23 army (redacted)

24 A. No. I apologise, but can I ask the honourable Judges something about

25 (redacted)?

Page 5324

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you want to ask whether or not you should reveal

2 this -- we still have not resolved that problem yet.

3 MR. KAY: I know, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The order does say that even the Defence is not to

5 be provided with information that may result in (redacted)

6 (redacted). Is that the area that

7 we are getting into?

8 MR. KAY: It seems that we are, your Honours. I am interested in this one

9 and a half years that the witness spends in (redacted) opstina

10 Prijedor. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So what are you saying, Mr. Kay?

16 MR. KAY: That in me being restrained in being able to put in precise

17 terms the place name to this witness so that I can adequately develop

18 proper questions is probably an unnecessary restriction, given the

19 fact that this has been disclosed to the Defence in this statement.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, the reference to the place in the statement

22 that has been drawn to the attention of the witness, there has been

23 evidence that (redacted)

24 (redacted). It seems to me that if there are questions about,

25 (redacted), then we have no objection to that. We do have

Page 5325

1 objections if it goes beyond that (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The order would prevent the revelation of that

6 information to you.

7 MR. KAY: Yes.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So to the extent that we, as a Chamber, have an

9 obligation to enforce the order, then I would sustain the objection.

10 To the extent that the Prosecutor has already given you the

11 information outside of the Trial Chamber's involvement, that is a

12 matter, I suppose, between the two of you.

13 MR. KAY: Yes.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But if it goes beyond the name of the witness, the

15 time that it took for him to travel from his home to the camp, the

16 order just seems to be very clear on that. I do not know what to do,

17 Mr. Kay, other than to prohibit you from getting into that area.

18 MR. KAY: Yes. Your Honour, I am actually having a bit of difficulty here

19 trying to develop the cross-examination.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I mean the order is pretty clear.

21 MR. KAY: Yes.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know what to say.

23 MR. KAY: May the Defence confer, your Honour, to see?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sure. Mr. Kay?

25 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. My learned friend Mr. Wladimiroff has

Page 5326

1 referred me to the original order which was concerned with prejudice.

2 This information has been disclosed to us subsequently by the

3 Prosecution. The evidence that was given relating to these matters

4 after the witness had left the camp is new evidence to us and material

5 that we had no knowledge of before it was given before this Court. It

6 is an area with which we are concerned to question because this

7 evidence is challenged, and the credibility of the witness is

8 challenged.

9 So, we feel it is only right, given the fact that this is a

10 closed session, that there may be editing of the transcripts of these

11 proceedings before they are released to the general public, that no

12 prejudice is occasioned to the witness or the Prosecution if we do go

13 into these matters in more detail than we are permitted to at the

14 moment.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

16 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, it depends on just how far the Defence wish to

17 go into this line of questioning. We do not want to be seen or to be

18 unnecessarily restricting their cross-examination on these matters. I

19 do not understand fully what they mean by this being new information,

20 but it seems to me that with the opportunity to do redacting before it

21 is made public, a lot of our problems may be allayed. But we are

22 concerned, very concerned, about questioning which leads to or could

23 lead to (redacted).

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Judge Vohrah can speak for himself, but what he has

25 pointed out to me is that what is at issue here is really the

Page 5327

1 protection of the witness, not the Prosecutor. There has been a

2 promise made to the witness, and that the Prosecutor cannot waive that

3 right, and perhaps through inadvertence or mistake, or however it

4 occurred, they give information to the Defence that is contrary to

5 the order, then that should not enure to the detriment of the witness,

6 because that is what this order is all about really, is protecting the

7 witness, not the Prosecutor. The order really goes to withholding

8 information from the Defence regarding (redacted), not the public.

9 I looked at another decision of witness S that we were

10 focusing on, and then that was withholding only from the public, but

11 this is focusing on withholding from the Defence because of a fear of

12 retaliation -- pure and simple. So that does not solve it, the fact

13 that it may be redacted when it goes out to the public.

14 MR. KAY: Our difficulty here is in representing the defendant and

15 challenging the evidence in the interests ----

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The order, as you will have to look at the decision

17 itself, says that it was not objected to except certain matters, but

18 at this point ----

19 MR. KAY: My learned leader who dealt with these pleadings.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff?

21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, if your Honour pleases, in paragraph 15 of your

22 decision, your Chamber said: "In order to establish whether the

23 restriction on his right to examine or have examined a witness against

24 him is in accordance with the notion of a fair trial, this Trial

25 Chamber must balance the interests of the accused and those of witness

Page 5328

1 L". Then it goes on to explain why the balance struck, as it did,

2 your decision because you considered that no such prejudice has been

3 shown to exist in this case -- I may add "at that moment".

4 After this decision, we got three more statements from the

5 Prosecution and then the issue was raised. So what I am trying to say

6 here is that this problem has arisen, we feel that, indeed, we are

7 limited in the right to have the witness examined. Therefore, we

8 suggest that you reconsider on the basis of this new information

9 provided to the Defence that the balance may strike at another point.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

11 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, the provision of further information to the

12 Defence about the matters should not be, in my submission, used as a

13 basis upon which the Defence can seek to go around the Court's order.

14 The additional information given to the Defence is for the benefit of

15 the Defence, not for them to use it as a basis on which they can

16 undermine the Court's order. The Court's order has been made. The

17 Prosecution has certainly obligations that it has to fulfil and to

18 make certain judgments with respect to material that it is in

19 possession of.

20 It is also under certain obligations with respect to the Rules

21 of the Tribunal. When an assessment is made of all these matters, the

22 Prosecutor can and does reveal information to the Defence. In so

23 doing, it is not sought in any way to go behind an order of the court

24 or to undermine it. It is merely to provide the Defence with

25 information so as to assist them in their course.

Page 5329

1 It is not, in my submission, an appropriate or valid basis

2 upon which to argue that the order is no longer in place or that it

3 should be ignored. If the additional information does not assist the

4 Defence, then they may return it, keep it or do with it what they

5 like. But it was given to them for that purpose and for no other

6 purpose, in our submission.

7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: The problem though is, your Honour, that if the further

8 information reveals inconsistency and, therefore, founds a basis for

9 cross-examination dealing with reliability, we feel we should not be

10 restricted if, indeed, a fair trial is at stake here.

11 MR. NIEMANN: If that be the case, your Honour, perhaps we might be

12 assisted by the Defence telling us whether or not the inconsistencies

13 relate to matter which go to identify the witness (redacted)

14 (redacted). I mean, there may well be material there which they may argue

15 amounts to a basis upon which it can be argued that there are

16 inconsistencies.

17 If those inconsistencies go to the question of matters

18 pertaining to the identification of the witness (redacted)

19 (redacted) or whatever, then let us consider it on that

20 basis. But we have heard nothing of this sort. The questions of

21 inconsistencies may well relate to other matters entirely of which

22 there is no limitation whatsoever on the Defence in their

23 cross-examination.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, what are the areas of you wish to enquire?

25 Can you just for the record specify those areas without -- you are

Page 5330

1 not going to address the defendant (sic), but I would like you to make

2 an offer really, a proof, in a sense of what is it that you would want

3 to elicit? Do you want the witness to take his -- yes, please, would

4 you take your earphones off? Let me explain. Would you put your

5 earphones back on?

6 [To the witness]: Sir, it is not our intention to deny you

7 the full opportunity to be a part of this proceeding, but there are

8 certain matters that the lawyers wish to discuss that raise legal

9 issues. Those legal issues need to be resolved without your hearing

10 the underlying discussion, but we are not attempting to just keep you

11 uninformed. It is just that we are now discussing legal issues that

12 need to be resolved first before we continue with your testimony. So

13 that is why I am asking you to take off your earphones, please.

14 THE WITNESS: OK.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, what are the areas you would want to get

16 into?

17 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I am just looking at a statement here that reads:

18 "I performed the (redacted) in Trnopolje camp until (redacted)

19 when I left the place at my own request". Moving on: "I heard from

20 the aforementioned guards and military policemen that Tadic had gone

21 to his wife in Serbia and had not return to Kozarac". It seems to me

22 that the first statement contradicts the leaving of the place and

23 fleeing as described because it implies it was at his own request.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let me deal with that. Do you have an objection to

25 that, Mr. Niemann?

Page 5331

1 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, that is one, no objection to. What else?

3 MR. KAY: The second statement: "I heard from the aforementioned guards

4 and military policemen that Tadic had gone to his wife in Serbia and

5 had not returned to Kozarac" implies that this witness had association

6 with other people in the area and was able to talk to them about

7 matters, and rather contradicts him being in hiding or trying to

8 escape from the clutches of Bosko Dragicevic and the other policemen

9 which was his testimony this morning.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you ask him then what is the basis for that

11 belief as opposed to asking him, "Well, (redacted)?" because

12 if you ask him (redacted)

13 (redacted). Can you ask him what is the basis of it? Of

14 course, if he then answers, "(redacted) ", that does not help

15 you.

16 MR. KAY: One of the difficulties is developing it and then exploring

17 issues.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am not trying to run your case really, you are a

19 better lawyer than I am. I have the easier job, that is for sure. I

20 just sit up here and give you my opinion about things. But I am

21 trying to give you as to what you want, but keep in mind that we have

22 this order. So you are saying that you cannot assess the weight that

23 statement should be given unless you find out where he was?

24 MR. KAY: Yes, and the 18-month period that he is in the opstina Prijedor

25 region (redacted) and what he did with himself and whom he

Page 5332

1 associated with and how, would be of importance to assess -----

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is a statement, that may be new information. I

3 do not know whether that was in the first statement, or is that in a

4 statement that you received subsequent to the November order?

5 MR. KAY: It is a statement dated (redacted) that we received last

6 week.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. (redacted)

8 (redacted). That just goes to the information that is

9 in the statement.

10 MR. KAY: I think the names of the people and the particular identities

11 will inevitably focus on (redacted) and who he

12 associated with.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will sustain the Prosecution's objection as to

14 that second area, that is, if you are going to ask him with respect to

15 him having heard that Tadic had gone (redacted), if you are

16 going to attempt to ask him (redacted), then it seems to me that

17 you are then treading on the November order.

18 MR. KAY: You see, it is the particular guards and policemen who spoke to

19 him from whom he heard this information and how he came to talk to

20 them which would be of interest to us in relation to his credibility.

21 His evidence this morning was that he was in hiding and he was

22 escaping from Bosko Dragicevic and the military policemen because he

23 deserted from the camp.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you not elicit that information without asking

25 (redacted)

Page 5333

1 MR. KAY: I think it is virtually impossible, your Honour, to do justice

2 to the subject, if I can put it that way. I mean that in a different

3 sense than it might otherwise be construed.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. I am trying to give you something, at the same

5 time keep in mind the order.

6 MR. KAY: I understand.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you feel you cannot thread through the order and

8 (redacted) and at the same time determine what were

9 his sources for this information, then you say you cannot, (redacted)

10 (redacted).

11 MR. KAY: I think if I ask the sources, the witness will inevitably be

12 giving the information.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Because he could have talked to these people in

14 Banja Luka, it does not mean that he spoke to them (redacted)

15 (redacted).

16 MR. KAY: Yes.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know what to tell you other than we will

18 stand by paragraph 17 of the decision in November, and that is that

19 Defence counsel -- I do not need to repeat it and, particularly,

20 paragraph 8 of the disposition section. It is really focusing on the

21 (redacted). That is our only intent.

22 MR. KAY: There was another area I was going to go into which concerned

23 his job. He mentioned working and again ----

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is that area now, because Mr. Niemann did not

25 object to your first area so we may be able to resolve this if you

Page 5334

1 make your proffer.

2 MR. KAY: It is not an inconsistent statement but I was going to

3 cross-examine him in relation to where that work was and then, by

4 definition almost, seek to find out if that was an area where Bosko

5 Dragicevic and the others would have been.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

7 MR. NIEMANN: We do not have any objection with regards to that, your

8 Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No objection to that. You got two out of three. Do

10 you

11 have anything else?

12 MR. KAY: I am sort of launching the boat, your Honour, at the moment and

13 trying to get on it.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The order is here and the decision is here. I am

15 sure you have looked at it over the recess -- we did.

16 MR. KAY: Yes.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are those your only concerns now, the three areas

18 that you have raised?

19 MR. KAY: I will try to be very careful in how I question. I am very

20 mindful of the Court.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am trying to make you make your proffer, rule on

22 it, to protect the record. You have made a proffer of three points

23 and there has been no objection to two of them. It is only the

24 second one that I have granted Mr. Niemann's objection on. So you may

25 proceed. [To the witness]: Sir, would you put your earphones on?

Page 5335

1 MR. KAY [To the witness]: In the one and a half years that you were back

2 in the opstina Prijedor, you told the Court this morning that you were

3 working. Whereabouts was that work?

4 A. (redacted).

5 Q. Does that mean you were working on a farm in (redacted)?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was that work during the day?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How did you travel to that work? Did you walk or go on a bus or were

10 you driven in a car?

11 A. It varied.

12 Q. (redacted) is very close to (redacted), is it not? It is in between

13 (redacted) and (redacted)?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you travel openly to the farm in (redacted) where you were working?

16 A. Excuse me, what do you mean, "openly"?

17 Q. So that other people could see you?

18 A. Well, everybody passes by, everybody can be seen.

19 Q. So, (redacted) is a place, as you know, which has a checkpoint on the

20 (redacted), is that not right?

21 A. There was not one in my time.

22 Q. Did you pass through to (redacted)?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Can you tell me how long the journey was from your place where you

25 were living to the farm (redacted) where you were working?

Page 5336

1 A. I cannot be specific.

2 Q. How long would it take in a motor car?

3 A. I did not measure it. I did not look at a watch to see how long it

4 could take.

5 Q. No, but surely you have some idea of time. You are able to tell me

6 whether it took 10 minutes, 15 minutes or 20 minutes?

7 A. It depended. If I started early, I got there earlier. If I started

8 later, then I had to hurry.

9 Q. The farm that you worked at, was it on the north side of the

10 (redacted) or was it on the south side, (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 A. (redacted)

13 Q. Did you work in the fields there or did you work in a building?

14 A. In the field.

15 Q. So anyone who knew you, would they be able to see you there at work

16 in the field?

17 A. No.

18 Q. If the farm was on both sides of the (redacted), are

19 you sure that you did not travel along (redacted) to get to the

20 farm?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You did not pass through any checkpoint that the police had

23 (redacted)?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How did you know that Bosko Dragicevic and the police were looking

Page 5337

1 for you whilst you were in opstina Prijedor at this time?

2 A. (redacted).

3 Q. Did you speak to other people who had worked with you at Trnopolje,

4 other policemen, about this?

5 A. No.

6 Q. I mean, have you ever made a statement, for instance, saying -- I

7 will read out a passage to you now -- that you heard from the

8 aforementioned guards, who they are I do not know, and military

9 policemen that Tadic had gone to his wife in Serbia and had not

10 returned (redacted)? Had you talked to guards that you had previously

11 worked with about Dusko Tadic?

12 A. It is not true.

13 Q. Can you explain then why someone at (redacted) should take

14 a statement from you saying that?

15 A. I do not know about that, but it is not true.

16 Q. Did you talk to any of the guards? Did you associate with any of

17 those guards that you used to work at in Trnopolje during this one and

18 a half years that you were in opstina Prijedor?

19 A. No.

20 Q. If the police and Bosko Dragicevic were looking for you, did they

21 ever come close to catching you in that one and a half years?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever have to take action so as to avoid them if they were in

24 the area that you were in?

25 A. I merely tried to keep away so that they would not see me.

Page 5338

1 Q. But there you were working openly in the fields and travelling from

2 wherever you were to (redacted) to work? Did people not know you were

3 around?

4 A. People knew that they were all refugees in that area.

5 Q. You told us this morning that because of your work at Trnopolje you

6 had got to a psychological state that you wanted to leave the camp

7 and that you escaped from it and hid somewhere for 10 days, is that

8 right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have you ever told anyone (redacted)

11 (redacted) that you left the camp at your own request?

12 A. Excuse me, what do you mean?

13 Q. I am reading now from a statement provided for me by the Prosecution

14 and it says this: "I performed (redacted) in the Trnopolje camp

15 (redacted) when I left the place at my own request". You told

16 them you wanted to leave?

17 A. No, I left because I did not want to be in that camp any more. I

18 could not take it any more and I could not take those injections that

19 I was receiving any more, and to do what I was doing.

20 Q. Can you explain then in a statement signed by you, taken down by

21 (redacted), why they should

22 say something about you that was not true?

23 A. (redacted) I gave the statements, they took them in detail.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5339

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 Q. You even signed a certificate saying that everyone had treated you

4 properly during this interview and you dictated the statement to them

5 and that it contained everything that you said?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember saying that, that you left at your own request?

8 A. I left the camp by myself.

9 Q. You see, what I am suggesting to you is this, that you did not have

10 these problems that you told us about, and you just left that camp and

11 no one was bothered to hunt down or track you down so that you had to

12 live in hiding because you were living quite openly. Do you agree or

13 disagree with that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You said that you had not heard about Dusko Tadic on the television

16 or in the news in Prijedor when you were there until (redacted), is

17 that the truth?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Everyone in opstina Prijedor knew of Dusko Tadic's arrest in Germany

20 in 1994, did they not? Everyone was talking about it in opstina

21 Prijedor?

22 A. Where I was in that area, there was no electricity, I am sorry, and I

23 do not read (redacted). I do not read the newspaper.

24 Q. You see, if you had talked to guards and military policemen who

25 worked at Trnopolje with you, they would have known about that, would

Page 5340

1 they not?

2 A. With those policemen, I did not speak nor do I know whether they knew

3 anything.

4 Q. I mean, did you know that Dusko Tadic had gone to his wife in Serbia

5 and had left Kozarac?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You were talking to people in (redacted), were you not, (redacted)?

8 A. Not true.

9 Q. You do not remember telling them that (redacted)?

10 A. Not true.

11 Q. That you had heard from (redacted) about Dusko Tadic? You

12 do not remember saying that to them there (redacted)?

13 A. I did not say that (redacted).

14 Q. Or is that another thing that the clerk has made up? In (redacted)

15 you told us that you joined the army (redacted)

16 (redacted), is that not right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. To be mobilized in the army, did you report to barracks in Prijedor?

19 A. No, in the military office in Prijedor.

20 Q. Did you get a call-up notice telling you to report there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So, someone within the local administration for mobilization knew

23 where you were living?

24 A. They knew that I was a refugee and they knew the surrounding area

25 where I was.

Page 5341

1 Q. This notice came from Prijedor, did it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So you went to the Prijedor office. Did you already have a military

4 book?

5 A. I received a military book.

6 Q. When did you receive your military book?

7 A. When I joined the army (redacted).

8 Q. So you had not had a military book when you went to Prijedor (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 A. No.

11 Q. (redacted) when you went to those barracks in Prijedor, was that

12 again as the result of a call-up notice? (redacted)

13 (redacted).

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you served as a guard at Trnopolje camp, was that part of your

16 mobilization?

17 A. Yes, that was mobilization, that was to be on the frontline.

18 Q. When you served as a guard at Trnopolje camp as part of your

19 mobilization, was that entered into any book or record?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What book or record was that?

22 A. That was entered in the headquarters in Trnopolje where Dusko Tadic

23 and Bosko Dragicevic were.

24 Q. Yes, you have said that Dusko Tadic was the Commander of the camp at

25 Trnopolje, have you not?

Page 5342

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You were describing both him and Dragicevic yesterday as being a Camp

3 Commander instead of describing Tadic as the Camp Commander. Why was

4 that?

5 A. Because Dusko Tadic gave orders to do what should not have been done

6 against these people that were in the camp.

7 Q. But Bosko Dragicevic you have described as the deputy Camp Commander,

8 is that not right?

9 A. Yes, deputy to Dusko Tadic.

10 Q. Who was the Camp Commander at Trnopolje?

11 A. Dusko Tadic was the main one.

12 Q. You never saw a man called Slobodan Kuruzovic?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you remember when you gave your statement (redacted) describing

15 Dusko Tadic as being clean shaven and short grey-ish hair?

16 A. Sorry, he was not grey.

17 Q. Do you remember saying that though when you gave your statement

18 (redacted) in ----

19 A. Dusko Tadic was -- had curly hair and he had receding hair and he was

20 stock -- he was well built.

21 Q. So, you describe him as having receding hair, is that right?

22 A. Sorry, but those are the -- that is receding hair.

23 Q. I mean, was there any reason why you changed the colour of his hair

24 when you gave evidence yesterday?

25 A. Every person can change.

Page 5343

1 Q. No, but you were not describing someone changing in appearance. You

2 were describing who they were when you said that you had dealings with

3 them for three months in 1992. Did anyone tell you to give him a

4 different colour hair?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Because you said he had black hair that was curly with sideburns, did

7 you not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. To say he had short grey-ish hair would be wrong to describe Dusko

10 Tadic, would it not?

11 A. I know who Dusko Tadic is. I knew him a while ago when we worked in

12 the camp and I know that he is sitting at the table and I know that

13 that is Dusko Tadic.

14 Q. But you have seen him on television in Prijedor anyway, have you not,

15 in opstina Prijedor?

16 A. I did not.

17 Q. People knew you well enough to be able to give you a call up notice

18 to go to the military office in Prijedor?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you started work at the camp, you told us that you were to be

21 paid money. How much was that to be?

22 A. Around 300 deutschemarks.

23 Q. Were you ever paid that money?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Was that a reason for you leaving the camp, the fact that you needed

Page 5344

1 to support yourself and had to get a job somewhere?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You told the Court about Dusko Tadic's house. What town was that

4 house in?

5 A. It was in Kozarac.

6 Q. You said it was near a petrol station. Which petrol station was

7 that? Can you identify it at all for us?

8 A. His house is located near the petrol station.

9 Q. How would you get to the petrol station from his house?

10 A. It depends whether you are going down Mount Kozara on the asphalt,

11 then his -- you pass his house and then you reach the petrol station.

12 Q. Perhaps if we can put Exhibit 196 in front of you? This is a plan of

13 Kozarac that has been provided for the Court. If it could be put on

14 the overhead projector? Perhaps if you turned your chair and with the

15 telescopic marker if you could indicate for us the petrol station?

16 The big thick black mark running across the map diagonally is Marsala

17 Tita Street and also marked is the church with a cross, the mosque and

18 the school down near the triangle in the centre of Kozarac. Can you

19 mark the petrol station for us at all? If you do not recognise or you

20 cannot familiarise yourself with the map, please say so.

21 A. This map is not clear to me.

22 Q. Very well. Are you able in any way to indicate where Dusko Tadic's

23 house is on Marsala Tita Street?

24 A. I do not know which street is called Marsala Tita but I know where

25 -- I know where Kozarac is.

Page 5345

1 Q. Very well. In relation to the petrol station, are you able to

2 identify any other building nearby where we would be able to pinpoint

3 it?

4 A. There was a saw mill.

5 Q. That is down towards the Prijedor/Banja Luka road, is it not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You describe the house of Dusko Tadic as having a shop. Can you

8 remember what that shop sold?

9 A. That is where the international -- the humanitarian aid was

10 distributed. There was a cafe in my time while I was there.

11 Q. There was a cafe. So the shop, you say, is the Red Cross office or a

12 shop for the Red Cross?

13 A. That is where Dusko Tadic was distributing for the Red Cross.

14 Q. You have described this as being a white house, is that not right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did Dusko Tadic have a wife with him at this house?

17 A. I do not know Dusko Tadic's wife, but there was a lady. As far as I

18 know the name, it was Branka.

19 Q. Did you think that she was his wife?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Have you ever described in a statement again (redacted)

22 (redacted) that he had a wife called Branka?

23 A. It is not true.

24 Q. You have not made a mistake and told them something that is wrong,

25 have you?

Page 5346

1 A. No, it is not true that his name -- that her name was Branka. I did

2 not know his wife. I did not know that he had a wife.

3 Q. Just to ask you this again, was there any document that you kept that

4 recorded you working as a guard at Trnopolje?

5 A. It was registered in the headquarters.

6 Q. Which headquarters were they? Where were they? The headquarters at

7 Trnopolje?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you describe what that record was, what particular book or

10 document that was?

11 A. Book.

12 Q. It was a book. Did it contain names of other people within that

13 book?

14 A. Of all guards.

15 Q. Did you sign it?

16 A. No.

17 Q. But you saw your name inside that book?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. (redacted).

20 What I would like you to do now is to look at a map here which is

21 court Exhibit 309 and point out to us on this plan where (redacted)

22 was. What I was intending to do was -- yes -- if you call this

23 Defence 34, D34 and use Prosecution Exhibit 309 for the witness to

24 make a mark.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You want the witness to make a mark on D34 which

Page 5347

1 would be Prosecution 309 without the mark?

2 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. I am using the same material.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sure.

4 MR. KAY [To the witness]: That there, witness, is a plan of Trnopolje

5 drawn by a witness earlier in the proceedings. Can you recognise on

6 the right-hand side where it indicates the layout of the school in the

7 camp? If you could answer "yes" or "no"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you recognise ----

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. --- where it indicates the dom?

12 A. I can.

13 Q. And the road to Kozarac running along the side of the camp?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the road to Prijedor?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What I would like you to do for us is on that plan that you have

18 there is to mark (redacted). I will provide

19 a pen here.

20 A. I am sorry, I have got one.

21 Q. If you could also mark the place that you have called the white

22 house, where that would be found.

23 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].

24 Q. If you could indicate what you have described as the office of Dusko

25 Tadic and Bosko Dragicevic?

Page 5348

1 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].

2 Q. If you could put a (redacted) where you have marked that?

3 MR. BOS: He has already done that.

4 MR. KAY: Thank you very much. If that can be put on the overhead

5 projector so that we can see it? So in the right-hand corner is (redacted)

6 (redacted), is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Perhaps if you use the indicator to point where you have put that,

9 Mr. Wladimiroff tells me.

10 A. I am sorry, can I show you all three things?

11 Q. Yes, that is what I am going to ask you to do. Point to (redacted)

12 first.

13 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].

14 Q. Can you next point to the white house?

15 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].

16 Q. Can you point to the place where you said the office of Dusko Tadic

17 and Bosko Dragicevic was?

18 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].

19 Q. Beneath Z and A on the plan, is that right?

20 A. This pump, I do not know what these two squares are for.

21 Q. If you could just keep the pointer on where you say the office was?

22 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].

23 Q. Thank you. Is that clear to the Court?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, for the record, (redacted)

25 (redacted) and then the white house is marked with an X.

Page 5349

1 MR. KAY: Yes.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then the office, Dragicevic Bosko's office, is

3 marked with a square.

4 MR. KAY: Yes. Your Honour, that would be a convenient moment.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

6 We can continue tonight until 6 p.m. if we can move along and perhaps

7 finish with this witness, because we have one more witness, as I

8 understand it, who will take from three to five hours and we would

9 like to finish tomorrow, if at all possible. So we are going to check

10 with the persons who assist us to see if we can sit until 6.00

11 tonight. We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

12 (4.00 p.m.)

13 (Short Adjournment)

14 (4.20 p.m.)

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will continue until 6 p.m. today.

16 MR. KAY: I am much obliged, your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

18 MR. KAY: Witness, I would like you to look at this photograph which I

19 tender as D34 and perhaps if it could be shown to Mr. Niemann after it

20 has been given to Mr. Bos?

21 MR. BOS: D35.

22 MR. KAY: I am sorry. Witness, can you see that photograph and do you

23 recognise it as showing the school buildings at Trnopolje and the road

24 to Kozarac in the middle of the photograph?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5350

1 Q. Perhaps if the overhead projector could be turned round and the

2 photograph be put on that projector? Can you see a telegraph pole by

3 the pile of logs in front of the school?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would it be right to say (redacted) was at the other

6 side of that telegraph pole at the corner of the camp where the fence

7 separated the school from the other buildings?

8 A. No. (redacted) was above the school in the corner where you can

9 see this house. [The witness indicated on the photograph].

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We need the translation for that of the witness.

11 Would you repeat your response, sir?

12 THE WITNESS: (redacted) next to this house which you can see here,

13 in the corner. This is (redacted) next to this asphalt.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am sorry.

15 MR. KAY: Again using that pen you have on the desk, could you mark that

16 photograph with an X in the position (redacted) so that it is

17 clear?

18 A. Sorry, to take the photograph?

19 Q. Yes, and with the pen on your desk could you put an X or (redacted)?

20 (redacted) where (redacted) was.

21 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].

22 Q. I can see it. The indentation will be on the photograph, your

23 Honours.

24 A. Excuse me, I cannot determine it quite normally on this picture

25 otherwise ----

Page 5351

1 Q. Would it be right to say the logs were not there when (redacted)

2 (redacted).

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, I have offered that as D35 and I now produce

5 it to the Court as D35 Exhibit.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

7 MR. NIEMANN: No objection.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: D35 will be admitted.

9 MR. KAY [To the witness]: I would like you now to look at another

10 photograph which I tender as D36. If you could show it to Mr.

11 Niemann? Is that a photograph of the road in Trnopolje up to Kozarac?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Showing on the right-hand side the hedges and trees along the road?

14 A. I can see it.

15 Q. If you could put that on the overhead projector, please? What

16 distance was the white house in metres from (redacted)?

17 A. About 150, as the crow flies.

18 Q. Did the white house have a road that was a tarmac road leading to it

19 or was it a pathway that was just a dirt path?

20 A. This was a road which one could use with a slightly better, more

21 powerful vehicle.

22 Q. Was it a dirt road or a dirt path to the white house?

23 A. There was grass.

24 Q. All these houses along this road are white, are they not?

25 A. I could not say if they were all white.

Page 5352

1 Q. Where did you get this expression "the white house" from? Was that

2 what the other guards called it?

3 A. Yes, because that is where murders were being committed.

4 Q. This house then was 150 metres away from (redacted)

5 (redacted), yes?

6 A. Excuse me, according to this photograph, I cannot show you where the

7 house was because this is not the photograph from the time when I was

8 there, so I cannot show it.

9 Q. Can you show us where the white house is on this photograph? Is the

10 white house on this photograph?

11 A. No.

12 Q. No. But the houses along this road have gardens, is that right?

13 They are set back from the road?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. There are hedges along the road that border between the houses and

16 the road?

17 A. There is a ditch and there is water in it.

18 Q. There are hedges as well, are there not, witness?

19 A. But I now see the hedge otherwise .....

20 Q. There was a hedge (redacted) in 1992, was there

21 not, along this road in front of the houses?

22 A. I cannot recall if there was a wire.

23 Q. Do you think that the hedge has perhaps grown since (redacted)

24 (redacted).

25 A. I cannot tell you anything.

Page 5353

1 Q. There are trees in the gardens of the houses, is that right?

2 A. I see them.

3 Q. (redacted), what was between (redacted) the white

4 house? Were there any other buildings?

5 A. (redacted) to the white house, it was all clear and one could see

6 clearly.

7 Q. There was not anything obstructing (redacted) trees or

8 hedges or other buildings?

9 A. No.

10 Q. The pole that you described as being by this house where people were

11 tied against and shot, was that in front of the white house or at the

12 back or at the side?

13 A. It was next to the front of the house, in front of the house, and it

14 was facing, it was turned towards the road between Kozarac and

15 Trnopolje.

16 Q. So anyone in the school or in the other buildings such as the store

17 at the camp, would they be able to see this pole?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If you were looking out of the windows of the school, presumably, you

20 would be able to see people tied up and being shot in front of the

21 white house, if you were looking?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As you have told us, (redacted), you estimate some 1500 people

24 were in Trnopolje camp at this time?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5354

1 Q. Did you know one of the prisoners at the camp called Adil Jakupovic?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you know his wife Nasiha Jakupovic?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You say that (redacted) able to see

6 killings in daylight committed by some of the guards in front of that

7 white house, do you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you have (redacted)?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. (redacted)

12 A. (redacted)

13 Q. So you were on duty (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It is right, is it not, that there was no electricity at this time in

17 Trnopolje?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were the telephones working?

20 A. No.

21 Q. (redacted).

22 (redacted)

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, the witness appears to be reluctant to

24 respond to this question. I hear no objection. Sir, you should

25 respond to that question. What are the names of the other guards

Page 5355

1 (redacted).

2 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, Mr. Niemann, why don't you have an objection

3 (redacted)? I do

4 not want to say.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: There is no objection and the Chamber has entered an

6 order (redacted).

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, because the Defence can find those who worked in

12 the camp who are around (redacted), and through whom

13 one can prove.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You should respond to the question, please.

15 THE WITNESS: (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Your name has already been given to the Defence --

20 you realise that -- the name and the position that you held ----

21 THE WITNESS: Yes.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- in the camp? (redacted)

23 (redacted), that appears to be very proper

24 cross-examination (redacted), presumably,

25 to see whether, in fact, you were working there. You must respond to

Page 5356

1 the question. You must respond to the question.

2 THE WITNESS: (redacted).

3 Excuse me, your Honour. (redacted)

4 (redacted).

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you want the names?

6 MR. KAY: I do, your Honour, as it is an important part of

7 cross-examination.

8 (The learned Judges conferred)

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

10 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, in order to attempt to assist the Court, may

11 it help if a representative of the Prosecution team spoke to the

12 witness?

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is a good suggestion. Of course, this witness

14 has revealed the names of other guards at the camp, other guards who,

15 you have indicated, committed offences. So the names of other guards

16 with whom you had contact, you have already offered, you understand

17 that, and we have their names. The Defence has their names.

18 I would suggest that you do talk with the witness. I would ask

19 you to point out to the witness Rule 77(A) of the Rules which provides

20 that the Trial Chamber may hold a witness in contempt of court. If we

21 find that the witness refuses or fails contumaciously to answer a

22 question relevant to the issue before a Chamber, and if we do hold the

23 witness in contempt, the Chamber may impose a fine not exceeding

24 US$10,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months. It

25 appears that the questions are relevant and you should respond to that

Page 5357

1 question.

2 Keep in mind that these proceedings are closed. Before a

3 transcript of these proceedings is released to the public, the parties

4 will have an opportunity to read the transcript and excise any matter

5 they do not want to be revealed to the public. Also, the Victims and

6 Witnesses Unit may review the transcript for that purpose. But we

7 consider that

8 the question is relevant and you should respond to it.

9 We will stand in recess for five minutes for you to talk to

10 the witness.

11 (4.50 p.m.)

12 (Short Adjournment)

13 (5.15 p.m.)

14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I have spoken with the witness and gone over

15 the various aspects of the matter with him. He is still reluctant to

16 answer the question as such. I have drawn his attention to the

17 provisions of our Rules, Rule 77. What he has agreed to do (and I

18 raise it for consideration) is that if the names are given to him and

19 the Defence have them, he is prepared to indicate on the paper the

20 names of those guards that were at the camp and to put a number beside

21 each guard's name that appears there. But, so far I have been unable

22 to persuade him to answer the question.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you have a list of guards' names?

24 MR. KAY: No, I do not, your Honour. I am asking the question because I

25 want to find out the information. I am relying on the witness to

Page 5358

1 provide this information. There are certain names that are known

2 through the statements, but what I am asking for here (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

9 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, the Defence have been given a copy of a

10 statement (redacted).

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, there are some names in there, but Mr. Kay has

12 indicated that he is going to go further than that, so even that will

13 not be sufficient, and so we still have the other problem.

14 MR. NIEMANN: We still have a problem, your Honour. I might just say,

15 your Honour, the concern the witness has is (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: And that is not true with the names of the persons

20 he has mentioned already?

21 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, or that is what he informs, your Honour.

22 The names of the people he has mentioned so far do not fall into that

23 category.

24 (The learned Judges conferred)

25 JUDGE STEPHEN: I wonder if you can clarify something for us?

Page 5359

1 MR. KAY: Yes.

2 JUDGE STEPHEN: Is it the intention of the Defence, if you are supplied

3 with (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)? Would that be part of the intention?

6 MR. KAY: It would be, your Honour. We are mindful of paragraph 10 of the

7 order which we have been considering because we have our next trip to

8 Bosnia, as the Court knows, on Saturday. We do not want to go about

9 our business putting anyone at risk or anything like that, but we were

10 mindful for the purposes of investigating the witness adequately that

11 we were able to use information as part of our discovery. I will be

12 frank with the Court. That was very much in mind and what we would

13 set out to do next week.

14 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Paragraph 10 of the November decision, Mr. Kay,

16 says: "The accused, the defence counsel and their representatives who

17 are acting pursuant to their instructions or requests shall not

18 disclose the name of witness L, or any other identifying data they may

19 discover concerning L, to the public or to the media, except to the

20 limited extent such disclosure to members of the public is necessary

21 to investigate the witness adequately". So, Mr. Kay?

22 MR. KAY: Yes, I mean, (redacted) we

23 have been talking about this over the last week as we have made our

24 preparations. We considered this wording very carefully, but it was

25 something that we were mindful that we were able to do and we were

Page 5360

1 able to give the name to our interpreters who are acting as agents on

2 our behalf to enable the translations to be given to us. But it is

3 something we do not see that we can stop ourselves from doing in the

4 proper discharge of our duties. If it was not of great importance, I

5 would steer clear and avoid it, but ----

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I guess my specific question is that you would

7 interpret "except to the limited extent such disclosure to members of

8 the public is necessary to investigate the witness adequately", you

9 would interpret that last phrase as authorising you to disclose the

10 witness's name and the information that you have received from the

11 witness to the guards who he testifies, if he testifies, worked with

12 him.

13 MR. KAY: Exactly, to investigate his account.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, that is my question.

15 MR. KAY: The reason why most of it is being done at this stage is we were

16 conscious we had not got full information and details from this

17 witness.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We had indicated that we would go until 6 o'clock

19 tonight, but in light of the developments the Trial Chamber considers

20 it may be more appropriate to adjourn now to give you more time to

21 talk with witness L.

22 You can tell witness L that it is the decision of the Trial

23 Chamber that this is a question which should be responded to, that it

24 fits within the issues, that it is relevant to the issue before a

25 Chamber and that the Chamber is considering very seriously citing the

Page 5361

1 witness for contempt. Then, of course, we would set a hearing to

2 determine, I suppose, the appropriate penalty for the contempt

3 consistent with the Rule, but that there may be other ramifications

4 too in terms of the receipt of the testimony. So he needs to think

5 about it very carefully.

6 The Chamber would enter an order prohibiting the parties from

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted). That is an order that could be entered by the

9 Chamber which should give him some solace. Other than that, there is

10 nothing that we can do.

11 He needs to understand that when he gives testimony, the

12 Defence should have an opportunity to question his testimony and to

13 test it, and that he cannot simply come and give one side and then

14 expect that they should not have the opportunity to test the validity,

15 the credibility ----

16 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- the truthfulness of his testimony. So we will

18 adjourn until tomorrow at 10 a.m. and then we will see where we are

19 with this issue.

20 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases.

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5362

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13 pages 5362-5390 redacted closed session

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22

23 (6.25 p.m.)

24 (The Court adjourned until the following day at 10.00 a.m.)

25