Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5391

1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T

2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER

4 Thursday, 15th August 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 (Closed session) released by Trial Chamber II 30 August 1996

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

8 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We continue to be in closed session, the technicians

10 tell me, yes. Mr. Niemann?

11 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I have spoken to the witness over the course of

12 the night and I have reminded him of the contempt provisions of these

13 Rules. (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 But, having discussed it with him, he is prepared, your

22 Honour, to return to the box and to resume his testimony and to answer

23 Mr. Kay's questions. For my part, I have promised him that I will be

24 objecting to each and every question which is arguably in breach of

25 the order. With respect to that, your Honour, and in relation to the

Page 5392

1 matters raised by the Defence, it is our submission that anything that

2 we may have discovered to the Defence in no way gives them licence to

3 breach the order of the Court. That will be our position on that.

4 Finally, your Honour, the witness has asked me to ask the

5 Court for their indulgence to permit him to explain his position. He

6 has promised me that he will be short in doing so, he will be

7 respectful and polite to the Court, but he wants to explain why it is

8 that he has taken this position, but he is prepared to return to the

9 box and to answer the questions, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

11 MR. KAY: Yes. Mr. Niemann indicated these matters to me earlier and I

12 guess we see how we proceed, your Honour. I am mindful of the Court's

13 order.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Then call the witness in and we will

15 continue. He may explain. We have already advised him of the

16 possibility of his being cited for contempt, considering that

17 admonition, then he may respond if he wishes by way of an explanation,

18 a brief explanation.

19 WITNESS L, recalled.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you understand that you are still under the

21 oath that you gave yesterday to tell the truth, do you not?

22 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I do.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand that, from Mr. Niemann, you wish to

24 respond to the position taken by the Trial Chamber yesterday, that

25 questions that had been directed to you by Mr. Kay were in issue in

Page 5393

1 this case and that you should respond to those questions subject to

2 the possibility of being held in contempt. You may respond, if you

3 wish.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes. I apologise for yesterday's reasons which I have not

5 given to the Court the names and I apologise to the Defence.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 because I worked at the camp, and I repent for everything that I

10 have done in that camp that I should not have done, and I admit to

11 having done it. Otherwise, I did not want to go on television or some

12 camera or to the newspapers to give any evidence against Tadic

13 (redacted)

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Kay, would you like to continue with

15 cross-examination?

16 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

17 Cross-examined by MR. KAY, continued.

18 Q. Witness, yesterday you told the Court that your (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What I would like you to tell me is the names of the other guards

23 (redacted), and if you could give the

24 names slowly so that we can hear them clearly?

25 A. Yes. (redacted)

Page 5394

1 Bosko Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica, Zeljko Karajica, Dragan Baltic,

2 Dusko Tadic, Milan Cavic. Those are the ones that I can remember.

3 Q. (redacted). How many guard posts

4 were there around the camp at this time?

5 A. Four.

6 Q. (redacted)

7 A. (redacted).

8 Q. The (redacted) guard posts, did they have single guards?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The duties of the (redacted) were what?

11 A. As far as (redacted) duties are concerned, they were only that the

12 civilians would not come out of the camp and that the military and

13 other civilians, the locals, do not approach the camp and do not do to

14 the people what they should not.

15 Q. Was there a fence around the camp at this time?

16 A. There was a mesh wire and then there was barbed wire which was about

17 2 to 2.5 metres high.

18 Q. If we can look at that plan that you drew upon yesterday, D34,

19 please, and if the overhead projector could be switched on and D34

20 placed on there? What I would like you to do is to indicate with the

21 pointer where the fence that you have described extended around the

22 camp?

23 A. (redacted)

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. The (redacted) was behind the school.

Page 5395

1 Q. Just keep the pointer there on the map so that we can see where the

2 (redacted) guard post was. (redacted). The (redacted) guard

3 post, you were just telling us, was where?

4 A. [The witness indicated].

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. The (redacted) guard post was, sorry, here where you see -- that was the

7 fence, that line. Then there was a guard post (redacted) which was near

8 the substation.

9 Q. Thank you. Was that clear to the Court, the markings?

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Clear. Do you want him to mark on your 34?

11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I would, if possible.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK.

13 MR. KAY: Thank you, witness. If you could just mark then those (redacted)

14 positions of guard posts on that plan that is on the overhead

15 projector? Take it off the overhead projector and put the plan in

16 front of you now.

17 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].

18 Q. Whilst you have the plan there in front of you, you put it back on

19 the projector, if you could just indicate with the marker where the

20 two metre, two and a half metre fence stretched around the camp?

21 A. The fence ran from the road going to the store, from (redacted) up

22 to guard post (redacted),from guard post (redacted) to straight to the road

23leading to Prijedor,to the guard post (redacted).From the guard post(redacted)

24 along the road leading to Prijedor down to guard post (redacted), the

25 electric substation. Then from the substation to the entrance to the

Page 5396

1 dom and the store, that was the gate.

2 Q. If you could put the plan back in front of you now and with that red

3 biro you have on your desk, if you could just draw around the map that

4 route of the fence around the camp? Thank you.

5 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].

6 Q. Thank you, witness. If you could just put it back on the overhead

7 projector and leave it there so that we can see it? Yes. Was this

8 fence the same height all the way round the camp of two metres or two

9 and a half metres?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was the barbed wired on the top section of the fence or the bottom

12 section?

13 A. On top of the fence.

14 Q. The wire below was what sort of wire, are you able to describe it?

15 A. It was like a mesh.

16 Q. (redacted) inside the wire fence or on the outside of the

17 wire fence?

18 A. Inside.

19 Q. So when (redacted)

20 (redacted) coming from within the camp, would it?

21 A.(redacted).

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5397

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 Q. Can you give me the names then of those guards who were (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 A. I cannot remember exactly, who were coming, but they were coming, the

11 guards, from the environs of Omarska and Prijedor, some locals whom I

12 did not know.

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5398

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 Q. You told us yesterday when you gave us names of the other guards of

18 Zoran Karajica and Milan Cavic that they were Catholics. Can you tell

19 me how you knew that?

20 A. They went to the Catholic church.

21 Q. The Catholic church where?

22 A. Towards Kozarac, and the Catholic church is on the right-hand side.

23 Q. You also told us that Dusko Tadic visited the camp in a Golf motor

24 car. What I would like you to help me with is whether you can

25 describe anything about that car, what it looked like, its condition.

Page 5399

1 Are you able to help us with that?

2 A. When he came in a car, it was -- then Dusko Tadic drove a white Golf,

3 white but a Golf.

4 Q. Can you remember whether it was a new car or an old car?

5 A. Not brand new.

6 Q. Any features about that car that you can remember?

7 A. All I remember is that it was white, that it was a white Golf and

8 that he came in it.

9 Q. You told us yesterday that the day after 26th October, (redacted)

10 (redacted), you saw 10 men being led

11 out of the dom building by Bosko Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica, Milan

12 Cavic and you told us that Dusko Tadic was there as well. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you looking down then towards the dom building?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us where you saw Dragicevic, Karajica and Cavic, where

18 they came from before they went to the dom?

19 A. They were in the office which is next to the asphalt. They were

20 there and they came out of the office and crossed the road and entered

21 the camp grounds and then went into the dom.

22 Q. The office that you describe, was that also the Red Cross building?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So this was a separate place that was known as the office, is that

25 right?

Page 5400

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you see them actually enter the dom building (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. To enter the dom building, you go under some arches which were at the

6 front of the building, is that right?

7 A. You mean in front of the shop?

8 Q. Yes, perhaps if you could see a photograph that we have of the front

9 of this building? I tender this now as D37, your Honour. Perhaps it

10 could be shown to Mr. Niemann as well? There is a Prosecution Exhibit

11 that I know is a head-on photograph, but I cannot remember the number.

12 JUDGE VOHRAH: Mr. Kay, are you now talking about the first occasion when

13 the detainees were taken out from the dom on 26th October?

14 MR. KAY: I am talking about the second occasion ----

15 JUDGE VOHRAH: Second occasion.

16 MR. KAY: --- your Honour, which you may recollect the witness referred to

17 as being the next day when 10 men are concerned.

18 [To the witness]: Do you recognise that photograph there as a photograph

19 of the dom building?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, I have tendered it. I offer that now as

22 Exhibit D37.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

24 MR. NIEMANN: No objection, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: D37 will be admitted.

Page 5401

1 MR. KAY [To the witness]: If you could just put it on the screen on the

2 overhead projector? This is a photograph taken from the other end of

3 the road, is it not, of the dom building?

4 A. This photograph had to be taken from the road leading to Kozarac from

5 Trnopolje, and this is the front of dom that we can see here.

6 Q. Were women and children or men held in that building or was it a mix

7 of both of them?

8 A. Only men were kept in the dom and women and children were kept in the

9 school.

10 Q. Could you see the people walk into that building (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So, what you told the Court was that the three of them, Dragicevic,

14 Karajica and Cavic, walked into that building. Was Dusko Tadic with

15 them at that time?

16 A. Dusko Tadic arrived.

17 Q. But did he go into that building with them?

18 A. No.

19 Q. When you say he "arrived", what do you mean by that? Where did he

20 go?

21 A. Well, we say "arrived" which means that he came in that car and

22 reached his headquarters, the office.

23 Q. So he was not down at that part of the camp where the dom building

24 was, he was at his office which you have marked for us on the plan?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5402

1 Q. You told us that he eventually went to Kozarac in his Golf. So how

2 long did he stay at the camp for?

3 A. I cannot remember how long he was in the camp exactly, but then he

4 turned and went in his car towards Kozarac.

5 Q. So when Bosko Dragicevic and the others went into that building, how

6 long did they stay in the dom for?

7 A. About 15, 10, 15 minutes.

8 Q. You also told us yesterday that along with the three named, Cavic,

9 Karajica, Dragicevic, were also policemen. What were the other

10 policemen called, what were their names?

11 A. They are police, civilian police.

12 Q. Did you know any of them?

13 A. Dragicevic, Zoran Karajica, Cavic.

14 Q. But were there any other policemen there other than those three?

15 A. Yes, there were policemen who worked in the camp and I was there,

16 Zoran Karajica, (redacted).

17 Q. I think you misunderstood me. I am talking about this occasion when

18 you describe the 10 men being taken from the dom. Other than the three

19 names that you have given, I wanted to know the names of the other

20 policemen whom you have not told us about who were also with them.

21 A. I cannot remember a policeman. I do not know. I did not really know

22 them.

23 Q. How did you know they were policemen?

24 A. Well, they used to come in police uniforms and they frequently came,

25 but I did not know their names.

Page 5403

1 Q. Were any of those with Dragicevic, Karajica and Cavic on this

2 occasion when the 10 men were taken from the dom?

3 A. Likewise, it was this police but I do not know what their names are.

4 I am sorry.

5 Q. When the group of policemen took the 10 men from the dom, can you

6 recollect where they took them to, what route they took?

7 A. They crossed the road leading to Kozarac.

8 Q. Then they went where?

9 A. Then they took them to the white house.

10 Q. So if we put that plan, D34, back on the overhead projector, could

11 you just trace with that pointer the route they would have taken to

12 get to the white house? Thank you very much, Mr. Bos.

13 A. Excuse me, your Honour, may I say something? This map here, it is an

14 excellent job, but as regards the white house, it is slightly

15 different in my time. I can draw the plan and the map and show where

16 the white house is and where they were taken. Perhaps the explanation

17 will be easier then.

18 Q. Yes, I will give you a fresh plan here which I tender as D38, your

19 Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that ----

21 MR. KAY: I am using again the Prosecution Exhibit.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think what the witness is saying is that he cannot

23 use that plan even if it is fresh to show where the white house is.

24 That is my understanding. Are you saying, sir, that you cannot use

25 that Exhibit that is before you to point out where the white house is?

Page 5404

1 A. Yes.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So a fresh one I do not think will help him.

3 MR. KAY: Yes. If I can ask the witness this question? [To the witness]:

4 I thought you indicated with an X that we see on the plan where the

5 white house was yesterday?

6 A. Well, it is here, but I could explain it more clearly and draw it

7 more clearly, because I did not draw this map.

8 Q. Is the position that you have indicated with that X the approximate

9 site of the white house?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If that is the case, can you not then trace the route from the dom

12 that they would have led these 10 prisoners upon to take them to the

13 white house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That is all I am asking you to do, sir, using the plan which is a

16 fresh plan which I am asking to be put in front of you. If you could

17 just indicate, again with the use of an X, where the white house is on

18 this plan and draw the route from the dom to the white house that

19 these 10 prisoners would have walked to get to the white house, using

20 your red biro which is on the desk in front of you.

21 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].

22 Q. If you can indicate again with the use of a square the office?

23 A. No problem.

24 Q. If you could put that on the screen by your side? So what you have

25 indicated then is the path from the Kozarac road up to the white

Page 5405

1 house, is that right?

2 A. This is when you come out of the dom, you get to the office and it is

3 the road leading towards Kozarac. Then you pass behind the office and

4 then you follow this road and reach the white house.

5 Q. Was Dusko Tadic at the camp when those three men and the other

6 policemen went into the dom as you saw them?

7 A. No.

8 Q. When they left the dom with the 10 men, was Dusko Tadic in the camp?

9 A. No.

10 Q. When they moved from the dom and arrived at the white house, how

11 long did that take?

12 A. I cannot say exactly, but from the white house to the dom it was

13 about 350 metres.

14 Q. Were they walking at ordinary walking pace?

15 A. Normal.

16 Q. Did Dusko Tadic arrive at the camp after they had been to the white

17 house?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did Dusko Tadic arrive at the camp before they arrived at the white

20 house?

21 A. Dusko Tadic came and then -- and then they took out 10 prisoners and

22 Dusko Tadic left off in his car. He turned and went off towards

23 Kozarac and those 10 prisoners were then taken to this white house.

24 Q. So you are saying before they went into the dom Dusko Tadic had

25 arrived at the camp?

Page 5406

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As far as what happened in the white house on that occasion is

3 concerned, you did not hear any gun shots, is that right?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What were the ages of this group of 10 men?

6 A. I cannot remember exactly.

7 Q. Had you ever been into the dom yourself where the prisoners were

8 held?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Had you ever been into those other buildings in front of the dom

11 where there is an office and other rooms?

12 A. I was not there.

13 Q. The next matter you told us about concerned 5th November 1992, is

14 that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. By this stage you had been working at the camp for (redacted), is

17 that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were there any new guards (redacted) during that

20 time?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were the guards (redacted) the same guards at 5th November as they

23 had been in the previous week or so?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Again on this occasion you describe Dragicevic, Karajica, Cavic and

Page 5407

1 Tadic. (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did that mean that he was going (redacted)

5 A. No. (redacted)

6 Q. Did you speak to (redacted) at all before you went with Bosko

7 Dragicevic to the white house?

8 A. No, Bosko Dragicevic talked to him, not I.

9 Q. You have described over the course of the next two months your

10 involvement in a number of rapes and killings at the white house and

11 elsewhere. Did you talk about these things with the other guards

12 (redacted)

13 A. No.

14 Q. Presumably, when people were shot against the post at the white

15 house, those shots could be heard in other parts of the camp?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Silencers were not being used on pistols or anything like that, were

18 they?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Those other guards (redacted), did they not say,

21 "Well, what was that firing about?"

22 A. Well, if they saw that prisoners were being taken, then they knew

23 that it was to kill the prisoners.

24 Q. You did not then talk with them about any of these things?

25 A. No.

Page 5408

1 Q. You have described yourself being involved (redacted). He was

2 a guard who was (redacted)

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You described him being present at one of these occasions. Were any

5 of the other guards also present at other occasions? By "other guards"

6 I do not mean Karajica, Cavic, Dragicevic or Tadic. I mean any of the

7 other guards who were guards like yourself. Do you know if they were

8 also involved in the same kinds of incidents that you were?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What about (redacted)

11 A. I cannot remember, I cannot exactly remember, but they were working

12 before me, before my time, whether they participated with those other

13 guards whom I do not know.

14 Q. (redacted), to my recollection, you described as being involved on

15 one occasion. Was he involved on other occasions, do you know?

16 A. I do not know, but I know that he was -- he started working there

17 before me.

18 Q. (redacted), do you know if he was involved in similar incidents to those

19 that you have described?

20 A. I am sorry, I cannot remember whether they did anything because they

21 never told me anything.

22 Q. No, (redacted) at the camp did you see others

23 of them going off with the Dragicevic group to the white house or

24 elsewhere with girls or male prisoners?

25 A. No, as far as I know, the ones that I knew, those were with

Page 5409

1 Dragicevic.

2 Q. Do you know why Dragicevic selected you to take part in killings and

3 rapes?

4 A. Maybe because he got an order from Tadic and because (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. Anything else, anything else that was said to you or gave you any

7 better indication than that?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Because the first way you are involved is Dragicevic coming up to you

10 and saying had you ever had sex before, was that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And telling him (sic) you could by raping a girl, is that right?

13 A. I said that I did not want to do it, that I was not going to obey the

14 order, but I was under threat that I was going to be killed, that I

15 had to do it.

16 Q. The idea from what you have told us is that these girls would be

17 impregnated by Serb men, the idea was to get them pregnant, is that

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Given the conditions at this camp, were these girls in poor physical

21 condition?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. They were girls who did not receive much food?

24 A. They were bringing it from their own homes.

25 Q. Presumably, at this time, in November and December 1992, there was

Page 5410

1 not much food for these people to have other than humanitarian aid?

2 A. The humanitarian aid was not given them. What they had for food they

3 were bringing from their houses so that they kept it, so that they

4 could have something to subsist on.

5 Q. Presumably, many of them were very thin and under-nourished?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And with illnesses?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You were involved in, first of all, an attempted rape of one girl

10 where you did not penetrate her and that was the first occasion that

11 you were involved in a sexual offence during this period, is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Again, can you help me that after that first occasion when you are

15 asked to be involved why you were selected later on in the day to be

16 involved in a rape?

17 A. Because I did not penetrate that girl.

18 Q. These girls came from where in the camp?

19 A. I am sorry, where did they come from?

20 Q. Yes, I mean, when they were brought and taken to the white house,

21 where had they come from?

22 A. From the school.

23 Q. What route did they take to the white house?

24 A. They were crossing the road past the office and that they were coming

25 to the white house.

Page 5411

1 Q. Again, this is in daylight, is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When the girls were taken from the school, the men taking them had

4 walked into the school, would that be right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are you able to tell us how many female prisoners were in the school

7 during this period, November/December?

8 A. I could not tell exactly, but I know that there were about 1500 of

9 them detained there in the camp.

10 Q. From what you could see, was the school crowded with these prisoners?

11 A. I was not inside the school.

12 Q. From what you could see, were there any male prisoners inside the

13 school building as well?

14 A. No.

15 Q. During these rapes that took place, you said that the girls were

16 blindfolded?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were they blindfolded when they left the school?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you went to the white house and saw the girls, were their

21 blindfolds still on?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you ever not go into the building yourself and take a girl from

24 the building?

25 A. No.

Page 5412

1 Q. Do you know why that was not the case, why the other guards, Cavic,

2 Karajica, Dragicevic, did not order you to go into the building with

3 them?

4 A. Because I did not want to go and they did not allow me to go inside.

5 Q. But what would have been the problem here? If you are threatened by

6 them to commit the rape, as you say threatened with guns, there would

7 have been no problem in them just at the end of a barrel of a gun

8 sending you into the school with them to fetch out a girl?

9 A. Because they knew that there were many prisoners who were watching

10 who was taking them out and who was doing what, and that they could

11 recognise faces.

12 Q. (redacted)

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. These (redacted) Muslim people and Croat people kept in this place

15 (redacted), they would have known (redacted), Cavic,

16 Karajica, Dragicevic, Tadic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So if they walked into this school building and these were (redacted)

19 prisoners from Prijedor, Kozarac, the surrounding villages, all the

20 women in those rooms would have known who they were?

21 A. Well, they knew because they were (redacted), because they know

22 Dragicevic and Zoran Karajica and Dusko Tadic, (redacted)

23 Q. They did not go in wearing masks covering their faces, did they?

24 A. No.

25 Q. (redacted)

Page 5413

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 A. Well, they would not because (redacted)

4 Q. Or, witness, was this the case that you and your friends (redacted)

5 (redacted) were going into those rooms and taking girls

6 out for yourself?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What you are doing here is blaming others in the area, other (redacted)

9 people, Tadic, Dragicevic, Cavic?

10 A. I do not blame them. It is the truth that Dusko Tadic and Dragicevic

11 and Zoran Karajica did go into the school, were taking out girls and

12 were going into the dom and were taking out the elderly men and

13 others, were watching, and Dusko Tadic was giving orders that this had

14 to happen, that these people have to be destroyed, and like those

15 girls who were raped, I also was in fear and fear that I could have

16 been killed if I did not obey what he ordered.

17 That people -- those people are not guilty for having been

18 forced out of their house, houses, and taken into the camp, that those

19 people also want to live. I did not want to do anything against

20 anybody and just wanted to protect myself from not going to the

21 frontlines and getting killed there. Those people have done nothing

22 to me, the people who were in that camp. I came to protect them from

23 others, but Dragicevic and Dusko Tadic and Zoran Karajica forced me to

24 do what I should not have done, that I had to kill, that I had to rape

25 girls. I do not know what reasons. (redacted). I feel

Page 5414

1 bad. I know that I am guilty. (redacted)

2 Q. You say you volunteered to protect them. You volunteered for work at

3 that camp because you thought you would get paid 300 deutschemarks a

4 month, did you not?

5 A. That was a promise, 300 marks, that would have been the salary but

6 that salary did not happen, but it would protect me from not going to

7 the frontline, but I was not interested in the salary or in doing what

8 I should not have done.

9 Q. No one came up to and asked you if you wanted a job at a camp. It

10 was one of your friends who took you so that you could get some work?

11 A. It is not it. I came so that I would have a job, that I would not go

12 to the frontline, (redacted), to work as in the camp, not to

13 touch anybody, not to hurt anybody, and I know that these people have

14 done nothing to me and I had no reason to do something against them.

15 What Dusko Tadic ordered, that these people had to be killed, that the

16 girls had to be raped, that is something else.

17 Q. That is what you are saying now, but Bosko Dragicevic did a lot of

18 ordering to you, did he not, not Dusko Tadic who is on trial here but

19 Bosko Dragicevic?

20 A. And he was ordering Bosko Dragicevic.

21 Q. How do you know that? You do not know that at all. It was Bosko

22 Dragicevic who offered you a job at this camp?

23 A. Because he asked Dusko Tadic.

24 Q. Let us go back to see how you got this job then. Was it one of your

25 friends who was already working at the camp?

Page 5415

1 A. No, but he knew them.

2 Q. Who gave you the introduction to Bosko Dragicevic to work at this

3 camp?

4 A. (redacted).

5 Q. Had you spoken to anyone else who was working at the camp before you

6 spoke to Bosko Dragicevic?

7 A. I only talked to this (redacted).

8 Q. Was he working at the camp as well?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Why did you talk to (redacted) then?

11 A. Because he knew Dragicevic and he knew Dusko Tadic.

12 Q. So (redacted) introduced you to Dusko Tadic or Bosko Dragicevic so

13 that you could get this job?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. But you knew already some of the guards who were working there, is

16 that not right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know how long they had been working at Trnopolje for?

22 A. I cannot recall but they came before me.

23 Q. You had spoken to them about their work at Trnopolje, how they were

24 spending their time?

25 A. No.

Page 5416

1 Q. So did you know what Trnopolje was?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Or had they spoken to you about Trnopolje and told you that there

4 were easy pickings, getting money off the inmates and also available

5 girls, is that what they told you?

6 A. No, as far as I know, it was only said that there were prisoners

7 there who are Muslims who are interred in the camp and that the guards

8 were needed.

9 Q. But these other people (redacted) who were working as guards at

10 Trnopolje, were they (redacted) young men (redacted)

11 A. There were some younger ones, but the most were older (redacted)

12 Q. Under 25?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As you have told us about these rapes taking place, it seems that the

15 blindfold is taken off in respect of all those girls after they have

16 been raped, is that right?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Let us just look at an example you gave us yesterday of the first

19 time you raped a girl successfully.

20 A. I am sorry, when they were taken back to the camp their blindfold was

21 taken off.

22 Q. Yes. You described yesterday that after you had raped her and you

23 started to leave, Milan Cavic also raped her. She was lifted off the

24 mattress and her blindfold removed, and that Dusko Tadic threatened

25 her saying her throat would be slit if she said what happened. You

Page 5417

1 see, when that happens, that blindfold is taken off, she sees Dusko

2 Tadic, does she not? Is that not right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Before that blindfold is taken off she has not seen Dusko Tadic at

5 all?

6 A. I am sorry, what blind -- the girls who were raped in the basement,

7 their eyes were blindfolded up going to the basement. They were

8 stripped and after the rapes the blindfold would be taken off the

9 girls so they could wipe themselves off. After the rape, she was

10 facing the wall and she dressed and then they took her out of the

11 basement and led her towards the school, to the camp.

12 Q. Let us just look then at this blindfold which is to prevent her

13 seeing probably where she is going, would you agree, or who she is

14 with, would you agree?

15 A. The girl, her blindfold would be taken off and she would be held

16 under her arms.

17 Q. Yes, and what risk would that give those people who have taken her in

18 a blindfold from the school to that building?

19 A. When she is taken out of the basement, the girl would be, taken the

20 blindfold off, but during the rape she would not know who raped her.

21 Q. Yes. As you have told us on all the occasions, as I remember it,

22 that after the rape the blindfold was removed. I think you know what I

23 am getting at, do you not, witness, that there is a risk here that she

24 is going to see those men with that blindfold off?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5418

1 Q. (redacted), she is going to know Dusko Tadic, Milan

2 Cavic, Bosko Dragicevic (redacted), would you agree?

3 A. It depends whether she is from the part of Kozarac that she could

4 know Dusan Tadic and the others, then she could recognise his name.

5 If she does not know his name Dusko Tadic, then she can only recognise

6 him by the face of the person who did this to her.

7 Q. Let us say that she does not know him then and he is the Camp

8 Commander, as you have told us, she is going to see him around and

9 recognise him at some later stage as being down there when she was

10 raped?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Yet this blindfold is taken off?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You see, what I will put to you again is this. I suggest to you

15 that, in fact, you and your other friends were using these girls for

16 your own purposes, you were not being forced by other people. This

17 is something that you and your friends were up to down in that camp?

18 A. I worked at the camp and I know that Dusko Tadic was in the camp and

19 was the Commander of the camp, and I know that he forced me (redacted)

20 to do what I should not, and that what Dusko Tadic also did, raped

21 girls and killed people and gave orders to do that.

22 Q. You described the occasion when two girls were involved and they were

23 asked to fight each other. Did you find that amusing? Were you

24 laughing at that with the other guards?

25 A. It was not amusing, because I was being forced do what I should not.

Page 5419

1 Q. So, in your statement that you gave (redacted)

2 that said, "We were all laughing", is that someone writing it down

3 incorrectly, not something you were actually doing?

4 A. I know that I was not laughing, that it was hard and it was terrible

5 for me do something (redacted) to someone.

6 Q. You have told us about having injections.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know what those injections were for?

9 A. Like drugs.

10 Q. Were you not ever told what they were for, why you were taking

11 injections?

12 A. No, I was -- I was feeling weak and sick and when I got my first

13 injection I did not know what it was and later I was feeling

14 different.

15 Q. Did you have these injections virtually every day when you worked at

16 Trnopolje?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did other guards have the same injections?

19 A. I did not see that. I cannot remember.

20 Q. It seems from what you tell us that it was the nurse who was giving

21 you the injection on most occasions, is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Nurse Nevenka?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did Dr. Baja give you injections on fewer occasions?

Page 5420

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Has anyone ever given you any sort of drug test at any stage to find

3 out what you were being given?

4 A. No until -- no.

5 Q. No. Where were these injections being put in your body?

6 A. The right arm.

7 Q. In the arm?

8 A. In the vein.

9 Q. When you had these injections, what sort of effect did they have on

10 you?

11 A. I felt strong. I had no fear. I had no stage fright.

12 Q. Did you not talk about it with your other friends at the camp, as to

13 the fact that you were getting injections every day?

14 A. No, every day when I was coming to work I was getting those

15 injections.

16 Q. Did you get them (redacted)

17 (redacted)?

18 A. It depended when the doctor came.

19 Q. What, you would be called away (redacted), would you, down to

20 the ambulanta to be told that your treatment was waiting for you, or

21 would they just go up and give you your injection (redacted)

22 A. No, I needed those injections. When I received the first one, I

23 continued to receive them and I felt that these injections I needed

24 and the doctor would come into the office.

25 Q. So you were hooked after the first injection, were you?

Page 5421

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What I suggest to you is this, again that you have made this up as

3 part of your excuse for what you were doing?

4 A. Not true.

5 Q. (redacted), you are also using drugs as an excuse?

6 A. Not true. I was receiving drugs and a psychiatrist (redacted)

7 (redacted) had checked that, that I was getting drugs.

8 Q. (redacted), but it is also a convenient moment, your

9 Honour, for a break.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: (redacted)

11 (redacted), but we will keep that in mind. We will stand

12 in recess for 20 minutes.

13 (11.30 a.m.)

14 (Short Adjournment)

15 (11.50 a.m.)

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

17 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. Witness, I would like you to look at

18 this photograph here which I tender as D39, and if you could show it

19 to Mr. Niemann? Do you recognise that photograph, witness, as being

20 taken from the approximate position of guard post 3 that you have

21 identified on the plan for us?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, I now offer that to the Court as D39.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

25 MR. NIEMANN: No objection.

Page 5422

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 39 will be admitted.

2 MR. KAY: So the Court can see it, can you put it on the overhead

3 projector? You have referred to there being four guard posts. Were

4 there tents in the camp in November and December when you were working

5 there?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were all the people then held within the buildings of the camp?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. During the daytime were the prisoners allowed out of those buildings

10 and allowed within the camp grounds that you have marked on our plan?

11 A. They only came out to bring some water because they had none in the

12 camp.

13 Q. But were they allowed to sit on the steps of the school for instance,

14 to -----

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. --- sit outside?

17 A. Outside they were on the stairs, they came out and got water from

18 other houses.

19 Q. When you refer to the "other houses", do you mean the houses that

20 were outside the camp in Trnopolje?

21 A. Across the road.

22 Q. I would like you to look at this photograph as well which I tender as

23 D40. If you could show it to Mr. Niemann after it has been marked?

24 Do you identify that as being a photograph taken in the road that

25 leads to the railway station and showing the electrical substation

Page 5423

1 which is the area that guard post 1 was positioned?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. If that could be put on the monitor so that the Court

4 could see it? The electrical substation is the building in the

5 furthest section of the camp that we see in that photograph, the

6 tower, is that right?

7 A. This is the substation.

8 Q. Thank you very much indeed. Again, at guard post 1 there, was there

9 only one guard standing in that position?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. I have tendered that as D40. I now offer it to the Court

12 as D40, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

14 MR. NIEMANN: No objection, your Honours.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence 40 will be admitted.

16 MR. KAY: That photograph is taken about halfway along the camp perimeter,

17 perhaps even just in front of the dom building. Would you recognise

18 that, the position of where that photograph has been taken?

19 A. This is the photograph which could have been taken from the road.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. So that it showed the substation and this large shed.

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. And dom is not far from there.

24 Q. That is right. I would like to ask you some questions now about your

25 routine (redacted) as a guard. Other than these incidents that you

Page 5424

1 have told us about being involved in killings and rapes, did you just

2 remain (redacted) or did you walk around the camp at all during

3 your duties?

4 A. We moved around about -- to about midway between guard posts.

5 Q. Was that just marching along the fence or did you move into the camp

6 nearer to the buildings and see what was happening?

7 A. We would walk near the buildings.

8 Q. Were you ever on duty (redacted)

9 A. No.

10 Q. When you walked around the camp in that manner, did you see any other

11 guards other than those positioned at, say, (redacted)

12 (redacted), who were perhaps working at the camp?

13 A. No.

14 Q. For instance, were there any guards near the school or near the

15 ambulanta or the store?

16 A. Guard posts, there were only four standing aside and those four

17 guards moved in the direction of one another, close to about halfway.

18 Q. You had a rifle, did you, that was part of your duty to carry when

19 you were on duty?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did that rifle remain with you? Did you take it home when you had

22 finished your duty?

23 A. No.

24 Q. What happened to that rifle when you finished your duty?

25 A. (redacted) I would turn it over (redacted)

Page 5425

1 (redacted)

2 Q. Who would that (redacted) be who received your rifle?

3 A. When I also took over that rifle and the one that I turned it over to

4 was (redacted)

5 Q. Did you have any days off at all from your duty or did you have to

6 work seven days of each week?

7 A. We worked nonstop around the clock and we worked for seven days.

8 Q. Because you referred to asking for a day off from Bosko Dragicevic

9 when you gave evidence yesterday. Do you remember?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you take that day off?

12 A. No.

13 Q. It seemed that he was not refusing you your day off, is that right?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you come into work the next day?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you ask him if you could have a day off on the day after that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. When you were working here at the camp during October/November and

20 December, did any of the people leave the camp?

21 A. Excuse me, the prisoners?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were any of the prisoners taken away from the camp in buses?

25 A. I cannot remember, it did not happen.

Page 5426

1 Q. You have told us about receiving these injections during the time

2 that you were on duty. Did you receive those injections in the

3 ambulanta or in the camp office?

4 A. Outside the camp, in the office.

5 Q. So, did Dr. Baja and nurse Nevenka work from the office or from the

6 ambulanta inside the camp?

7 A. They were in the office.

8 Q. Did you ever see them working from the ambulanta?

9 A. No.

10 Q. On your duty, did you ever have any breaks for lunch or for coffee?

11 Did you ever have any meal breaks?

12 A. We had our lunches (redacted)

13 Q. How were you fed there? Where did the food come from?

14 A. We brought it from home.

15 Q. You told us that you were not paid any money, in fact, for working at

16 Trnopolje, so how were you surviving? What did you do for money to

17 buy food?

18 A. We had our food which we brought ourselves from home.

19 Q. So where did your food come from home?

20 A. Well, we were receiving the first aid from the Red Cross and we had

21 our food which we had brought along.

22 Q. By that you mean from the place where you came from before you

23 arrived in opstina Prijedor?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. For a number of these rapes and killings that you took part in from

Page 5427

1 6th November until 25th November, you told the Court that Dusko Tadic

2 was not present, save for the two girls who were concerned with 7th

3 November, is that right?

4 A. Tadic was -- raped two girls. He was there, and after that in

5 December he raped within the perimeter of the camp when six girls were

6 raped.

7 Q. But it is right to say that you have told us that he was not there at

8 the time of killings and rapes that took place involving you, and you

9 gave us the dates of 9th or 10th November, 15th November, 18th

10 November, that he was not present when those took place?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You have told us of being involved in the removal of bodies from the

13 area of Trnopolje camp and that they being taken to places (redacted)

14 (redacted). That is right, is it not, you have been involved in

15 that, you told us, on a number of occasions?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I would like you to look (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted).

23 A. (redacted).

24 Q. (redacted)

25 (redacted).

Page 5428

1 A. (redacted)

2 Q. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 A. (redacted)

5 Q. Yes. You told us that on 5th November you were involved in a killing

6 in Trnopolje camp?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You have told us that you went to a dump site and these bodies were

9 placed there. What I would like you to do is, (redacted)

10 (redacted), indicate for us on the overhead projector where that dump site

11 would have been where you say those bodies were placed. So, if you

12 could put (redacted) on the overhead projector? Are you able to identify

13 where that dump site for those bodies would have been? Perhaps take

14 the projector off a bit, or move the (redacted)

15 (redacted). Thank you. Are you able to do that?

16 There is (redacted)

17 (redacted). Are you able to indicate to us -- (redacted)

18 (redacted)-- where the dump site would have been, (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 A. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted).

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. (redacted).

25 Q. Are you able to remember (redacted)

Page 5429

1 on this occasion when you were involved in the killing of these people

2 on 5th November?

3 A. It was also on the 10th. Excuse me, you think this place which was

4 like a dump site, the earth mover was?

5 Q. I am asking you where you took the three bodies on 5th November which

6 you described as going to a dump site, (redacted)

7 (redacted).

8 A. (redacted).

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted).

11 Q. (redacted).

12 A. (redacted)

13 (redacted).

14 Q. Can you identify rather more particularly where it was that you

15 described going to where there was a dump site (redacted)

16 (redacted)?

17 A. Excuse me, where they were digging, where 10 people were killed

18 (redacted) -- perhaps that is what you have in mind?

19 Q. I am asking you about the place you said was a dump site and you

20 described there being skulls, if you can point to us the places, it

21 does not matter on which occasion, where you went where the bodies

22 were buried.

23 A. Excuse me, I do not know, (redacted)

24 (redacted).

25 Q. (redacted)

Page 5430

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted).

3 A. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted), we reached the dump site.

6 Q. Right. If you can just keep your pointer there, where it would be?

7 (redacted)?

8 A. Which was?

9 Q. (redacted)

10 A. (redacted)

11 (redacted).

12 Q. (redacted)

13 (redacted)?

14 A. (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted), where the earth mover was.

17 Q. Did you go to any other site where bodies were also buried and, if

18 so, can you indicate (redacted)

19 A. Yes. This is here, (redacted)

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. --- (redacted). This

22 is where people were buried. (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted) and that is where these people were buried, those 10 people who

25 had been killed.

Page 5431

1 Q. Any other sites that you can indicate to us?

2 A. One of the sites is (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 Q. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 A. (redacted).

7 Q. (redacted)

8 A. (redacted).

9 Q. Thank you. When you went to those sites can you remember the names

10 of the guards that you were with?

11 A. There were Zoran Karajica, Cavic, Baltic, Dragicevic and Dusko Tadic.

12 Q. Any other guards that you can name who were with you?

13 A. There was (redacted) who also knew about this dump site. I am

14 sorry.

15 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is all I ask.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: One matter, Mr. Kay, you had tendered Defence

17 Exhibits 33, 34 and 36 and they have not been admitted. Do you wish to

18 offer them into evidence at this time?

19 MR. KAY: If I could just remind myself?

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will go through my notes, but I think the

21 Registrar ----

22 MR. BOS: 38.

23 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. I tendered all of them and offer all of them

24 to the Court.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have them listed, Mr. Bos, as to what they

Page 5432

1 were? 33 was identified as the English statement of the witness.

2 MR. KAY: Yes, and he did not adopt it. I cannot offer that actually,

3 your Honour. I do not offer that.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, then that will not be offered.

5 MR. KAY: Yes.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 34?

7 MR. KAY: Is a map, the plan, yes.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That was the one that was modified by the witness?

9 MR. KAY: Yes, I offer that.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 34 -- any objection, Mr. Niemann?

11 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 34 will be admitted. 36?

13 MR. KAY: Is a photograph, I offer that.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, that is the photograph.

15 MR. NIEMANN: No objection.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No objection. 36 will be admitted. 38 is also a

17 modification of the plan by the witness.

18 MR. KAY: Yes, I offer that, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 38, Mr. Niemann?

20 MR. NIEMANN: No objection.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 38 then will be admitted. Mr. Niemann, is there any

22 redirect?

23 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

24 Re-examined by MR. NIEMANN

25 Q. Witness, you were asked some questions about descriptions you had

Page 5433

1 given of Dusko Tadic and especially with respect to the colour of his

2 hair. I ask you to look at this statement (redacted) which

3 is in your own language and a part of the statement where it is marked

4 with a yellow marker. Can you read it to yourself and then read the

5 section where you have described the colour of the hair of Dusko

6 Tadic? Perhaps this might be shown to the Defence?

7 Witness, if you just look -- I am not tendering this, I do not

8 want to give it a number -- at that section which is marked with the

9 yellow marker and read it, firstly, to yourself? Can you just read

10 out that portion where you describe the colour of the hair of Dusko

11 Tadic, where there is a yellow sticker on the statement? Perhaps

12 before you do that, does your signature appear at the bottom of the

13 statement?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recognise that as a statement that you gave (redacted)

16 A. I recognise it.

17 Q. Could you just read out that part where the hair colour is described,

18 please? Take your time.

19 A. I am sorry, should I look at all of it or should I describe him or

20 just the colour of his hair?

21 Q. Just read out the section which makes reference to Dusko Tadic and

22 then lead on to the colour of his hair, the whole sentence. Can you

23 read it?

24 A. "Dusko Tadic, around 40 years of age, born in Kozarac, married, wife"

25 -- here it says "Branka". That is a bit of a problem because I do not

Page 5434

1 know what his wife's name is.

2 Q. Keep reading on.

3 A. " ... left Kozarac at the end of 1992, has thick dark hair with some

4 grey, combed upwards and black eyebrows" ----

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. --- "with some receding hair".

7 Q. Might that be returned, please? Witness, you were asked some

8 questions about the girls being blindfolded and then the blindfolds

9 being taken off. You also gave in your evidence-in-chief evidence

10 about the girls being warned not to tell anybody about what had

11 happened?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were they given this warning before their blindfolds were taken off

14 or after?

15 A. After.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

19 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour, please.

20 Further cross-examined by MR. KAY

21 Q. Might I have that statement, please, that Mr. Niemann just used?

22 MR. NIEMANN: If it is going to be tendered, your Honour, I have a

23 redacted version for that purpose.

24 MR. KAY: I will not tender it. We do not have that version of the

25 statement.

Page 5435

1 Q. Witness, could you look at this statement and look at page 2 and read

2 out the second to last sentence on page 2 where that mark is with the

3 sticky? So if you turn over the page to page 2, the second to last

4 sentence of that paragraph which gives a description, does it not, of

5 Dusko Tadic? Does it say: "Dusko Tadic was sitting at a table"?

6 A. When (redacted) receiving the aid from the International Red Cross"?

7 Q. Could you just read out that sentence? Does it say: "Dusko Tadic

8 was sitting at a table. I noticed he was thick set, clean shaven and

9 had short grey-ish hair"?

10 A. It was not grey.

11 Q. Does the statement say it?

12 A. Maybe they typed it wrong.

13 Q. Does the statement say it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Can I have that statement back as well, please? Do you

16 remember a list of names at the back of this statement of people who

17 worked at Trnopolje?

18 A. I remember.

19 Q. (redacted), is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. (redacted)?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. (redacted)

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. (redacted)

Page 5436

1 A. I am sorry, (redacted)

2 Q. (redacted), which one would sound right to you?

3 A. (redacted)

4 Q. Did he work at Trnopolje?

5 A. I cannot say but I know him.

6 Q. Were you listing him as working in Trnopolje, 25 years old?

7 A. He is an acquaintance.

8 Q. (redacted)

9 A. I am sorry, I am sorry, that one -- they are known to me, but I -- I

10 did not see them and I did not know they worked at the camp, (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. Did you say in the statement that you met him at the camp? If you

14 want to see the words, have a look at this page here, that you met him

15 at the camp.

16 A. I remember.

17 Q. Just read the passage about (redacted)

18 A. "(redacted), 25 years old, born in (redacted), resident of

19 (redacted), worked as a farmer on his father's farm before the war".

20 Describe him?

21 Q. No. Do you just say that you met him at the camp in this statement

22 and that he was in the (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 A. I do not remember. I do not remember that he was at the camp, but I

25 know that he was in (redacted)

Page 5437

1 Q. (redacted), was he at the camp?

2 A. I only knew him like this.

3 Q. (redacted), was he at the camp?

4 A. Yes. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. (redacted), was he at the camp?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. (redacted), was he at the camp?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. (redacted) was he at the camp?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. (redacted)

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. (redacted)

15 A. I am sorry ----

16 Q. Was he at the camp?

17 A. --- I know all these names, but I cannot recall whether they all

18 worked at the camp.

19 Q. Here it is in your own language.

20 A. I am sorry, your Honours, I was only asked whether I knew people,

21 whom I knew and where I knew them from.

22 Q. In this statement here in your own language you will see the

23 paragraph beginning (redacted) , does it not say that you met him at

24 the camp?

25 A. (redacted).

Page 5438

1 Q. And (redacted)?

2 A. I cannot remember.

3 Q. Does it say: "(redacted), about 20 years old"?

4 MR. NIEMANN: I will object to any further reading of that statement, your

5 Honour.

6 MR. KAY: OK. But does it say in the last sentence, if you look at the

7 last -- I accept that, your Honour -- sentence: "I met him at the

8 camp"? You can see it in your own language there?

9 A. No, it does not say that I met him at the camp. Maybe it says that I

10 found him in the camp.

11 Q. Thank you. (redacted), does the last sentence say that you met him

12 at the camp?

13 A. (redacted) was with me in (redacted) and he (redacted)

14 (redacted).

15 Q. Does it not say ----

16 A. I know that it says that I found him in Trnopolje camp.

17 Q. Does it not say: "I met him at Trnopolje camp" in your own language,

18 this statement that you signed?

19 A. That was a mistake for (redacted). He was in (redacted).

20 Q. Can you explain why you said you met him at Trnopolje camp?

21 A. Maybe they typed it wrong.

22 Q. I see. (redacted), can you see the paragraph dealing with him? It

23 is the last sentence I am interested in. Can you see it in your own

24 language on that page signed by you, that you met him at Trnopolje

25 camp?

Page 5439

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is that true?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. (redacted)?

5 A. "(redacted) ".

6 Q. Did you meet him at the camp?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. (redacted), did you meet him at the camp?

9 A. No, (redacted)

10 Q. (redacted), did you meet him in the camp?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Zoran Karajica you have told us about. Zeljko Karajica you have told

13 us about. Bosko Dragicevic you have told us about. (redacted), did

14 you meet him in the camp?

15 A. That man (redacted).

16 Q. Can you see in this statement that you said that you met him at the

17 camp? Have a look. It is in your own language. I have actually got

18 it here.

19 A. I do not have it here.

20 Q. You see the paragraph of (redacted) in your own language?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you see the last sentence, that you met him at the camp?

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5440

1 Q. (redacted)

2 A. (redacted)

3 Q. Did you meet him at the camp?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. (redacted)

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you meet him at the camp?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. (redacted), did you meet him at the camp? (redacted)? If

10 you would like to look at this? Did you meet him at the camp?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Does the last sentence say you did?

13 A. It says that (redacted)

14 (redacted) -- I am sorry, it is where it

15 says the camp, that is maybe they added while typing.

16 Q. It does say, does it not, that you met him at the camp?

17 A. "I found him in the camp", yes, it says.

18 Q. Have you been making up people that you have met at this camp?

19 A. No, these people, these are the people whom I knew, and I am sorry if

20 they added things while typing that they were in the camp, but those

21 people were (redacted). I knew all

22 these people.

23 Q. Who would have been making up things in your statement whilst typing?

24 A. Maybe they changed while they were typing, the Bosnian side, maybe

25 they said that they were in the camp (redacted)

Page 5441

1 (redacted).

2 Q. Were you being told to provide names of people in the camp?

3 A. Whom I knew?

4 Q. Yes. Were you being told to give any names?

5 A. They said to give the names of people whom I knew and where I knew

6 them from.

7 Q. The next name, (redacted), did you meet him in the camp?

8 A. I knew him. It says that I met him at the camp.

9 Q. Yes, had you met him at the camp?

10 A. No, with these -- if I met them in the camp, I only knew them.

11 Q. But how does it come to be in this statement that you were saying

12 that you met this person at the camp when you are telling us you did

13 not?

14 A. I am sorry, maybe they -- they made a mistake in typing on the

15 Bosnian side.

16 Q. The next name, (redacted)

17 A. I know him. He did not work at the camp. He was with me in the

18 International Red Cross where it was distributed. I knew him, I know

19 him very well. He also knows Dusko Tadic. He was not at the camp.

20 Q. Just look at what you have signed to here. It says, does it not, in

21 the last sentence that you met him at the camp?

22 A. "I found him at the camp".

23 Q. Doing what at the camp?

24 A. I did not find him at the camp and nor was he at the camp, this man,

25 but he was where the aid of the International Red Cross was

Page 5442

1 distributed, where he introduced me to Bosko Dragicevic and Dusko

2 Tadic.

3 Q. You had this statement read back to you, did you not, (redacted)

4 (redacted) and you signed each and every page?

5 A. I signed the pages that, where I gave the names of people that I

6 knew.

7 Q. Just have a look at the pages. Every single page of that document

8 from page 1 contains your signature at the bottom.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This was an interview conducted in your own language?

11 A. It was typed in my own language and then they were typing it.

12 Q. Yes, and you were just making up names of people whom you had seen at

13 Trnopolje, were you not? You have put down people here saying they

14 were at Trnopolje who were not there at all?

15 A. I know the people who were not in the Trnopolje camp, and people who

16 -- I also know the people who worked at the Trnopolje camp.

17 Q. Here you are saying now that you did not find these people at the

18 camp or you did not meet them at the camp, and you have given all

19 their names?

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, I do not want to cut you have off, but you

21 have asked and it has been answered several times.

22 MR. KAY: I am conscious of that.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The witness says, at least, that he was asked to

24 give the names of people he knows.

25 MR. KAY: Yes.

Page 5443

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He gave them. On the statement, for some of them,

2 it says they were found in the camp and he disputes that.

3 MR. KAY: Yes.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand your point, but I think you need to

5 move on to another area.

6 MR. KAY: I am much obliged. [To the witness]: Let us look at that name

7 after (redacted)? Do you say you met him

8 at the camp?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you meet him at the camp? Did you meet (redacted) at the

11 camp?

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You need to answer. Did you meet him at the camp?

13 THE WITNESS: I only know him, no.

14 MR. KAY: So, what has happened here in this statement? Has someone made

15 it up for you saying that you met him there?

16 A. I tell you, maybe the Bosnian side typed it wrongly. I apologise. I

17 know people who were not there. (redacted)

18 (redacted) and

19 some were in the camp as I gave that earlier who was in the camp

20 working.

21 Q. Well, the next name, (redacted), did you meet him in the camp?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Right. Well, perhaps you would like to look at the second to last

24 sentence. Does it say: "I heard from (redacted) and (redacted)

25 that (redacted) committed many rapes and murders. He used to arrive at

Page 5444

1 the camp drunk, take people out to rape them and kill them in the

2 white house. I met him at the camp"? Can you see those sentences

3 dealing with (redacted)?

4 A. "(redacted), I heard that (redacted) had committed a

5 large number of murders and rapes, that he used to come to the camp at

6 night and drank."

7 Q. And the rest.

8 A. "He took out women and girls so as to rape them and kill them in the

9 white house. He is at (redacted). I found him in the

10 camp." After midnight that (redacted),

11 I do not know whether he came to the camp at night time. (redacted)

12 (redacted) nor do I know that he did all this.

13 Q. Well, did you just say that you found him in the camp at night time?

14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I object to that. He did not say that at all.

15 MR. KAY: Quite right.

16 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, (redacted)

17 MR. KAY: You found him at the camp ----

18 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, this (redacted) I know him,but I did not find him at

19 night in the camp because (redacted).

20 MR. KAY: Does the last sentence of that statement about (redacted) say that

21 you met him at the camp?

22 A. It does.

23 Q. You have said in this statement that you did discuss with (redacted)

24 (redacted) then what this man was doing?

25 A. (redacted)?

Page 5445

1 Q. Did you find him at the camp, (redacted)?

2 A. (redacted)?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. That one was not in the camp.

5 Q. Did you hear from (redacted) that he had committed many

6 rapes and murders?

7 A. They talked about that man, but I do not know whether he did that and

8 whether that was true. I did not see him with my own eyes.

9 Q. Did they talk about him committing murders and rapes?

10 A. They talked about it.

11 Q. Yes. I thought you did not discuss with (redacted)and the other guards

12 you knew what had been happening?

13 A. In my time.

14 Q. If you go on, (redacted) who is on this page. (Handed) (redacted)

15 (redacted), did you meet him at the camp?

16 A. Excuse me, your Honour, I know it says that all of them were in the

17 camp, (redacted)

18 (redacted). Perhaps this was in typing that the Bosnian side put it

19 wrongly and perhaps they added they were at the camp. I only know

20 these people.

21 Q. Well, this list gives Bosko Dragicevic, Milan Cavic, (redacted)

22 (redacted), were they?

23 A. They were not. They were in the camp.

24 Q. Zeljko Karajica was (redacted) or Zoran Karajica?

25 A. They were in the camp. (redacted)

Page 5446

1 (redacted). They were in the camp who committed

2 and performed murders and rapes.

3 Q. In fact this document, which is in your own language, says before

4 this list that: "Among the policemen and guards who were there at the

5 time I know the following ... " If you go back to the beginning of the

6 list, if you look at page 23 here. (Handed). I have put a sticker at

7 the start of the sentence. What does that sentence say?

8 A. It says: "Apart from me, there were about 20 guards working at the

9 Trnopolje camp, 15 military police."

10 Q. What does the rest of the paragraph say?

11 A. That: "The others were civilian policemen who came from the village

12 of Petrov Gaj and Omarska."

13 Q. And the next sentence?

14 A. "These civilian police used to come to the camp at night together

15 with guards, with guard, and a smaller number of military police and

16 among the guards" [INTERPRETER: We are very sorry, but those cases are

17 all wrong. It is simply incomprehensible].

18 Q. I think it is not being read properly by you, Witness. Are you

19 changing the language in the statement in any way?

20 A. "Among the guards there were also military police. I know the

21 following ... "

22 Q. Then you go on to give the list, do you not, of names?

23 A. They were taking the names of people I knew and people who worked in

24 the camp.

25 Q. Right. So that it is clearly put I will say this to you. Have you

Page 5447

1 just given those names of people that you have made up allegations

2 about them in Trnopolje camp?

3 A. People I do know and some who worked in the camp and people who were

4 (redacted), this is what the Bosnian

5 side requested, what people I knew and what people worked at the camp.

6 Q. On the next page do you say, "(redacted) committed a number of

7 murders and rapes before I arrived at the camp"? Do you see the

8 paragraph beginning, "(redacted) ", the last sentence? "(redacted)

9 told me that (redacted) had committed a number of murders and rapes

10 before I had arrived at the camp"?

11 A. Because he worked at the camp.

12 Q. Was that true, that (redacted) told you that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. (redacted), did you say you heard from (redacted) that (redacted)

15 committed a number of rapes and murders in Trnopolje camp before I

16 arrived"?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was that true?

19 A. I do not know.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I object. Could we be told what is true,

21 whether the rapes were committed or whether the question was asked?

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will overrule your objection. Was it true?

23 MR. KAY: Was it true?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you had objected, Mr. Niemann, that this whole

25 line of testimony was beyond redirect we would have recessed 25

Page 5448

1 minutes ago, because you only asked him in the statement what was the

2 colour of his hair. Go ahead, Mr. Kay.

3 MR. KAY: Was it true?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. KAY: Your Honour that is all I ask. May I say I had not seen this

6 document before, we do not have it, which is why it came in.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Well, it was clearly beyond redirect but that

8 is OK. We have very liberal rules. Mr. Niemann, is there any

9 re-redirect?

10 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, but I ask that the statement be returned.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. I just have one question while the statement is

12 being returned. Mr. Usher, would you get the statement so we can just

13 move along.

14 Examined by the Court.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you worked (redacted), as I understand it,

16 is that correct, while you were at Trnopolje?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. There were four guard posts as you have described them, is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5449

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. (redacted)

7 (redacted) there were more (redacted) guards, were there not?

8 A. There were more, but I did not know them.

9 Q. These other guards who you did not know, they were performing other

10 duties, I gather, (redacted)

11 A. No.

12 Q. What were they doing or do you not know?

13 A. I do not know what they did.

14 Q. So, you did not have any meetings with the other guards, any kind of

15 regular meetings with guards, (redacted)

16 A. No.

17 Q. Who would you take your orders from on a daily basis?

18 A. To commit murders and rape?

19 Q. No, to perform your duties (redacted)? Did you have ----

20 A. Bosko Dragicevic.

21 Q. That is the person whom you testified got you the job, is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You have testified that you believe Mr. Tadic was the Commander of

25 Trnopolje camp. Why do you believe that?

Page 5450

1 A. He was the Commander because he issued orders to kill the people and

2 to rape girls.

3 Q. But he never gave you any orders on a daily basis, did he, tell you

4 (redacted), that kind of thing, did he?

5 A. Yes, Bosko Dragicevic was his deputy. Tadic was only asked whether

6 something could be done to an inmate or a girl and that that people

7 were not to be let free.

8 Q. That is why you believe that he was Bosko's superior?

9 A. Yes.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, do you have additional questions?

11 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you have additional questions?

13 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

14 JUDGE STEPHEN: Just arising out of what you have been saying, Zoran

15 Karajica and Cavic, they were not one of the (redacted) guards, were they,

16 in the guard post?

17 A. No, they would come to the camp. With Bosko Dragicevic they came and

18 did those things, committed those killings and rapes and be present.

19 Q. They were not working full time in the camp then?

20 A. No.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, do you have additional questions?

22 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

24 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Regarding the transcript for L, since this is in

Page 5451

1 closed session, we have asked as our usual procedure that the

2 transcripts be reviewed and any corrections you may have you get those

3 to us as quickly as possible. If you can get the corrections to us by

4 Friday at 5 p.m. -- I understand you are leaving, Mr. Wladimiroff --

5 that would be helpful, and then they can be gotten to the Witnesses

6 Unit for their review before we release the transcript.

7 Is there any objection to this witness being permanently

8 excused?

9 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I would like to keep him still under command of the

10 Court, so to speak, not to release him.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

12 MR. NIEMANN: I have no objection, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you are free to leave. You are still under the

14 control of this Tribunal, in that you may be recalled as a witness.

15 So you should make yourself available.

16 We will stand in recess for an hour and a half for lunch.

17 (1.24 p.m.)

18 (Luncheon Adjournment)

19

20 (2.55 p.m.)

21 (Open session)

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are now in open session continuing. Mr. Niemann,

23 would you call your next witness or is it Mr. Tieger?

24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. Thank you. The next witness will be very

25 brief and will be in English. The next witness is Grant McIntosh

Page 5452

1 junior.

2 MR. GRANT THOMAS McINTOSH JUNIOR, called.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that has been

4 handed to you?

5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare I will speak the truth, the whole truth

6 and nothing but the truth.

7 (The witness was sworn)

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

9 Examined by MR. TIEGER

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Can you state your full name,

12 please?

13 A. Grant Thomas McIntosh, junior.

14 Q. Mr. McIntosh, you are presently an investigator for the Office of the

15 Prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal?

16 A. That is correct, sir.

17 Q. How long have you worked in that position?

18 A. I am seconded from my government to the Tribunal. I have been here

19 since June 1994.

20 Q. Have you previously worked as a criminal investigator?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. For how many years?

23 A. The 28th of this month, I will be starting my 19th year.

24 Q. With what agency were you previously working?

25 A. The United States Naval, Criminal Investigative Service.

Page 5453

1 Q. In that capacity, were you a sworn law enforcement officer?

2 A. Yes, sir, a civilian special agent.

3 Q. Mr. McIntosh, did you recently complete an investigative mission to

4 Bosnia and elsewhere?

5 A. Yes, sir, I did.

6 Q. What were the dates of that mission?

7 A. 4th August through 11th August.

8 Q. During the course of that mission were you in opstina Prijedor?

9 A. Yes, I was.

10 Q. While in Prijedor, did you visit and photograph part of the site

11 which was the former detention camp at Trnopolje?

12 A. Yes, sir, I did.

13 Q. Specifically, did you photograph the area of the dom or hall in a

14 building housing a store and a medical facility?

15 A. Yes, sir, I did.

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this photograph marked as Exhibit 315

17 for identification, please? Mr. McIntosh, do you recognise this

18 photo?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What it depicts?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What is that?

23 A. That is a photograph of a part of the structure of the dom that

24 housed the store and the medical facilities.

25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender this photograph for admission and

Page 5454

1 ask that it be placed on the overhead projector.

2 MR. KAY: No, objection your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 315 will be admitted.

4 MR. TIEGER: First of all, Mr. McIntosh, how do you know that there was a

5 store and a medical facility there?

6 A. Upon arrival at the front of the building on the street side, which

7 is located right here, there was a store that was opening and

8 functioning as a store at that time.

9 Q. How were you able to determine there was a medical facility of some

10 sort in that area?

11 A. By looking through this middle window, I could see that there was

12 some sort of a medical office with medical supplies.

13 Q. You took this picture from the parking lot of the dom?

14 A. That is correct, sir.

15 Q. From what part of the parking lot, where would you be?

16 A. Approximately in front of the main entrances to the dom with the

17 large hall area.

18 Q. What date was this photograph taken?

19 A. On 9 August at about 4.30 in the afternoon.

20 Q. This photograph, as we are looking at this photograph, we are looking

21 in what direction?

22 A. Towards the town of Kozarac.

23 Q. Would your back at the time this photograph was taken, therefore, be

24 to the Trnopolje railroad station?

25 A. That is correct, sir.

Page 5455

1 Q. Did you also take photographs from the position of the two windows to

2 the left side of the building?

3 A. That is correct, sir.

4 Q. Do those photographs also depict this parking lot?

5 A. Yes, sir, they do.

6 Q. Are there landmarks or identifying features in this photograph,

7 Exhibit 315, which would help us identify portions of the parking lot

8 in the other photograph?

9 A. Yes, sir, there are several marks, what I would call divots in the

10 asphalt parking lot, one here, one here, and there is like an oil mark

11 here. There is also a basketball backboard that is depicted in the

12 photograph.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this composite photograph, montage

14 photograph, marked as Exhibit 316 for identification? Mr. McIntosh, do

15 you recognise this montage of photographs?

16 A. Yes, sir, it is a bracketed photograph, a series of three

17 photographs that are put together.

18 Q. Do they depict the area of the dom parking lot and the surrounding

19 area, including a portion of the hall building itself?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 MR. TIEGER: I tender 316 for admission, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

23 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 316 will be admitted.

25 MR. TIEGER: May that be placed on the overhead projector as well? First

Page 5456

1 of all, Mr. McIntosh, can you point out, identify, those points of

2 reference or identifying features in the parking lot which you

3 indicated earlier?

4 A. Yes, sir. The first one would be this divot here in the asphalt

5 parking lot that I mentioned. This would be the second one. This

6 would be the oil that is on the ground and here is the basketball hoop

7 with backboard.

8 Q. How was this photograph or bracketed photographs taken? Where were

9 you standing?

10 A. I went to the first window that was shown on the first photograph to

11 the left and put my back to the window as if I was, like, looking out

12 the window, and would take a series of photographs starting from the

13 left to the right with my shoulder, bracket the photograph, second

14 photograph to third photograph.

15 Q. Were you able to get inside the building?

16 A. No, sir, we were not.

17 Q. Can you point out for us the dom or hall building?

18 A. That would be -- the entrance to the dom hall building would be here,

19 sir.

20 Q. OK. Your Honour, may I have this next series of bracketed

21 photographs marked as 317 for identification? Mr. McIntosh, do you

22 recognise these photographs, Exhibit 317, as being a set of four

23 bracketed photographs that you took with your back to the second

24 window?

25 A. Yes, sir. I recognise them and I believe actually there are five.

Page 5457

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 317 for admission.

2 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 317 will be admitted.

4 MR. TIEGER: Once again, Mr. McIntosh, can you point out the points of

5 reference in the parking lot which indicate where we are relative to

6 the picture that shows the medical supply and store building?

7 A. Again, the first two in would be the divot in the asphalt here, No.

8 1, No. 2 would be here, the oil spot, and again the basketball

9 backboard.

10 Q. If I could have 315 placed briefly on the Elmo? Just to clarify,

11 sir, 317, the series of five photographs, was taken with your back to

12 which window? Can you point it out?

13 A. The centre window here, sir.

14 Q. The previous series of bracketed photographers was taken from where?

15 A. This window here, sir.

16 Q. Could we have 317 back on the Elmo? I am sorry. Mr. McIntosh, during

17 your approximately 20 years of investigative experience, have you had

18 many occasions to take photographs of various scenes?

19 A. Yes, sir, I have.

20 Q. Although the camera, obviously, captures the details of objects seen,

21 does it sometimes fail to accurately reflect the dimensions and

22 distances as perceived by the human eye?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. In your experience, what kind of effect can be seen?

25 A. The type and size of the lenses that you might utilise, maybe the

Page 5458

1 angles from which a photograph is shot, can make the image or the

2 objects in a photograph appear either closer or further away than what

3 they actually are.

4 Q. Did that effect occur here?

5 A. Yes, sir, it did.

6 Q. In what way?

7 A. The objects, everything here, appears to be further in distance then

8 when you are actually standing there.

9 Q. You were at the scene, at this area, last week, is that right?

10 A. That is correct, sir.

11 Q. Can you estimate for us the distance from the wall at which you were

12 standing, the window at which you were standing, to the end of the

13 parking lot?

14 A. I would estimate approximately 60 feet or so which I understand is

15 about 18.5 metres.

16 Q. In terms of this courtroom, what would a rough approximation be, if

17 you can make it, of the distance of that parking lot?

18 A. Probably from inside this doorway over here to my right to probably

19 inside the other doorway over here to my left. Approximately the same,

20 maybe a little bit further.

21 Q. If one were to be at approximately the area of the entrance to the

22 dom and then move perhaps three or four metres in the direction of the

23 corner of the parking lot seen at the left of the picture,

24 approximately how far would that be from the hall at which you were

25 standing where the window was?

Page 5459

1 A. I would have to say approximately 45, 40 to 45 feet.

2 Q. Mr. McIntosh, during your time in Prijedor did you also visit the

3 Omarska mine, the former site of the camp?

4 A. Yes, sir, I did.

5 Q. Did you take photographs there?

6 A. Yes, sir, I did.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have these two photographs marked as

8 Exhibits 318A and B?

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I ask one question, Mr. McIntosh, to understand

10 your testimony? Regarding then Exhibit 317, if one were to move how

11 many feet from the front of the dom over to the left towards the

12 basketball court, and then how many feet would it then be from the

13 wall of the medical centre to that place? Tell me that again, please?

14 A. If I understand the original question, if you -- approximately nine

15 feet or so from where the start of the dom, at the entrance to the

16 dom, out into the parking lot towards ----

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am sorry, you say nine feet what?

18 A. If one was to move approximately nine feet or so, nine to 10 feet,

19 from the entrance towards this far corner, it is what -- and then I

20 would say it was approximately 40 to 45 feet, without knowing exactly

21 where someone was standing.

22 Q. Then 40 to 45 feet from where?

23 A. From the wall, ma'am.

24 Q. From the wall of the medical centre?

25 A. Right where I am standing taking the photograph.

Page 5460

1 Q. That is where you were. You were taking the photograph from the wall

2 of the medical centre, were you not?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 Q. So if you move nine feet or so from the entrance of the dom going

5 towards the basketball, you then become 40 to 45 feet from the wall?

6 I do not understand how that is possible. Maybe I am missing ----

7 MR. TIEGER: If I could really clarify that, your Honour?

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- because I thought it was 60 feet normally from

9 the wall to the entrance to the dom.

10 MR. TIEGER: To the end of the parking lot, I think the question was.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Tell me again because I do not have the dimensions

12 correctly. Speak more loudly for me. I guess, we have been in closed

13 session and I think maybe I am used to it being closer.

14 MR. TIEGER: I apologise for the confusion, your Honour. First of all,

15 Mr. McIntosh, understanding that these are approximations, standing

16 from the wall of the medical facility to the end of the parking lot,

17 is that a distance that you approximated as about 60 feet?

18 A. I would say approximately 60 feet, sir.

19 Q. Then the second question was -- we can also see the entrance to the

20 dom in this picture?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Then again the question was, if one were to move approximately three

23 to four metres, and again roughly approximating the distance, in the

24 direction of the corner of the parking lot, as you pointed out before,

25 then you would estimate that distance, based on your presence there

Page 5461

1 last week, as being approximately 40 to 45 feet?

2 A. That is correct, sir, recognising that the parking lot went a little

3 bit further beyond than the doors, about 15 feet.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Where is the entrance to the parking lot?

5 A. The entrance would be right through here, ma'am, right through here.

6 But the parking lot would extend to the other side of these columns.

7 Q. I see.

8 MR. TIEGER: Mr. McIntosh, do you have those photographs from Omarska?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Can you tell us what 318A and B depict?

11 A. The photographs were taken outside of the large hangar, demper garage

12 area, at the entrance to the garage doors.

13 Q. These are the series of large garage doors on the other side of the

14 entrance to the hangar building?

15 A. That is correct, sir.

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 318A and B for admission.

17 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 318A and B will be admitted.

19 MR. TIEGER: If B may be placed by its side? Mr. McIntosh, does the

20 grate shown in 318A extend for the full length of that side of the

21 hangar building, as far as you recall?

22 A. As far as I could see, yes, sir.

23 Q. 318B just shows a close up of that grate?

24 A. Yes, sir, the photograph downward.

25 Q. Incidentally, Mr. McIntosh, when you visited the Omarska camp, before

Page 5462

1 you visited the Omarska camp, had you seen photographs and videos of

2 camp?

3 A. Yes, sir, I had.

4 Q. When you actually visited the camp, did you notice anything about the

5 distorting effect you spoke of earlier?

6 A. The first thing, I was really surprised to see that the white house

7 was as close to the back of the demper garage area as it actually was.

8 From the photographs that I had seen before, I had always envisioned

9 it to be much further away.

10 Q. Was there any other portion of the camp which struck you in the same

11 way?

12 A. The pista between the cafeteria of the building and the demper

13 building, to me, in photographs it looked much larger than when I was

14 standing there and observing it.

15 Q. If we could return just a moment to 316, please? Just to clarify,

16 Mr. McIntosh, we see the columns that indicate from where we see the

17 portion of the entry area to the dom, is that right?

18 A. Yes, sir, right here.

19 Q. The parking lot extends a little bit further than the entrance?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Then when you add the nine or so feet, I guess nine to 12 feet,

22 whatever, would be, in the question I asked you, you would estimate

23 the distance then would be approximately 45 feet from the wall of the

24 medical building?

25 A. Coming out from the doors to the distance that you asked, I would say

Page 5463

1 then about 40 to 45 feet, depending upon where the individual or the

2 person would be standing.

3 Q. That is all I have, your Honour. Thank you.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

5 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

6 MR. KAY: Just to assist me, did you use a 35 millimetre lens on your

7 camera?

8 A. Yes, sir, I did -- excuse me, a 35 millimetre camera. It was a 35 to

9 80 zoom lens.

10 Q. Did you use the zoom lens on any of these photographs you have shown

11 us of the parking lot (as it has been described) in front of the dom

12 building at Trnopolje?

13 A. Yes, sir, but I could not tell you the exact -- what exactly it was,

14 what measurement it would have been, from the 50 -- between the 35 to

15 80. I was just framing the picture.

16 Q. I understand. So you moved it up from 35 millimetres to somewhere in

17 between 35 to 80?

18 A. It was somewhere in between, sir.

19 Q. Thank you very much. In relation to these distances from the wall of

20 the ambulanta building, did you measure those?

21 A. No, sir, I did not.

22 Q. So these are sites that you are giving by eye and judgment?

23 A. In this particular case, I did not measure because I was not tasked

24 to, sir. I was just tasked to take a photograph.

25 Q. I understand.

Page 5464

1 MR. KAY: Thank you. No further questions.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

3 MR. TIEGER: Nothing further.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to this witness being -- you have a

5 question?

6 Examined by the Court

7 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, you have talked about distortion that photography

8 can produce. Would you have a look at the model in front of you of

9 Omarska? Perhaps you can stand up?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Have a good look at it. Does it accurately represent, for instance,

12 the position of the white house and also the size of the pista?

13 A. I would say that it accurately represents that. Again, it just

14 appears to me that the white house seems a little further back.

15 Q. Does that mean that you think it does accurately represent?

16 A. Yes, sir, it does accurately represent. I am trying to look over it.

17 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

19 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour, nothing further.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

21 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. McIntosh being

23 permanently excused?

24 MR. KAY: No, there is not, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you are permanently excused. You are free to

Page 5465

1 leave. Thank you very much for coming.

2 (The witness withdrew)

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis?

4 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you. The Prosecution calls Mr. Robert Reid.

5 MR. ROBERT REID, called.

6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

7 truth and nothing but the truth.

8 (The witness was sworn)

9 Examined by MISS HOLLIS

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

12 MISS HOLLIS: Would you please state your full name?

13 A. My full name is Robert William Reid, spelt R-E-I-D.

14 Q. What is your current position?

15 A. I am an investigative team leader at the Office of the Prosecutor,

16 the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

17 Q. How long have you held this position?

18 A. Since 6th June 1994.

19 Q. What are your duties in that position?

20 A. My principal duties are to lead direct and co-ordinate all

21 investigations which are allocated to the team by the chief of

22 investigations.

23 Q. For what organisation did you work before taking your current

24 position?

25 A. I was with the New South Wales police service in Australia and I am

Page 5466

1 currently on leave without pay.

2 Q. How long did you work for that organisation?

3 A. In December of this year it will be 21 years.

4 Q. What types of investigative work have you been involved in in the

5 past?

6 A. Since about 1978, I have been involved in criminal investigation and

7 that covers the whole sphere of criminal investigation from murder,

8 sexual assaults down to simple stealings.

9 Q. What prior experience have you had with war crimes investigations?

10 A. In July of 1987, I was seconded from the New South Wales police to

11 the Federal Attorney General's office where I was attached to the

12 special investigations unit which was investigating allegations that

13 persons had entered Australia at the conclusion of World War II, who

14 had committed serious crimes during the conflict of World War II in

15 the period 1941 to 1945. I remained in that position until 1991 when I

16 returned back to the New South Wales police. There was a period,

17 however, between 1991 and 1992 where I worked at the committal

18 proceedings and trial of a person who had been charged.

19 Q. Mr. Reid, what duties have you performed in relation to the Office of

20 the Prosecutor investigation of the accused in this case, Dusko Tadic?

21 A. I have been the lead investigator in relation to the investigation of

22 the accused. In addition to that, I am the investigator in relation

23 to the investigations relating to opstina Prijedor and Bosanska

24 Krajina, the area of Bosanska Krajina in the former Yugoslavia.

25 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, Mr. Reid has asked to be able to use a short

Page 5467

1 aide memoire during his testimony. I have provided that to the

2 Defence and asked them if they have any objection to that. I would

3 ask that he be allowed to use the aide memoire.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No objection, Mr. Wladimiroff?

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may use it, Mr. Reid.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honour.

8 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Reid, in your capacity as lead investigator for this

9 case, were you the team leader of a mission that went to opstina

10 Prijedor in February/March 1996?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. Were other OTP personnel part of that mission as well as other

13 investigative personnel?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did personnel from the team visit various locations in opstina

16 Prijedor, including the sites of the former detention camps at

17 Omarska, Keraterm and Trnopolje?

18 A. Yes, we did.

19 Q. During that mission did the team photograph and video tape various

20 locations in opstina Prijedor, including the former detention camps?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did the team also seize evidence from various locations in opstina

23 Prijedor, including from the former detention camps?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Reid, I would first like to ask you some questions about evidence

Page 5468

1 that has already been admitted in this case. At my request, did you

2 review Prosecution Exhibits 232, 239A and B, 240, 248, 250A, 251, 256,

3 257, 258, 259, 260, 261, 262, 263, 266, 267, 270, 272A and B, 273A,

4 279, 312 and 314 which were photographs of various locations at the

5 former Omarska camp?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. When were those photographs taken?

8 A. They were taken on the mission to opstina Prijedor between 19th

9 February and 4th March 1996.

10 Q. At my request, did you review Prosecution Exhibit 229 which is a

11 video of various locations at the former Omarska camp?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When was that video taken?

14 A. That was taken on the mission again between 19th February and 4th

15 March 1996.

16 Q. At my request, did you review Prosecution Exhibit 130A, floor plans

17 of the large hangar building at Ormaska camp?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Who prepared that Exhibit?

20 A. That Exhibit was prepared by Miss Kate Pearce, the analyst on the

21 team.

22 Q. From what source or sources was that Exhibit prepared?

23 A. They were taken from a set of plans that were seized at the former

24 Omarska mine.

25 Q. These were seized during your team's mission to opstina Prijedor?

Page 5469

1 A. Yes, between 19th February and 4th March 1996.

2 Q. While you were at the Ormaska camp, did you enter the buildings

3 there?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. In this large hangar building on the model before you, were you able

6 to determine how well sound carries in that building?

7 A. Yes. Sound travelled quite easily within that large hangar building.

8 In fact, we carried out a number of tests while we were in there,

9 where I went to particular rooms and areas of that large hangar

10 building and another member of the team simulated the calling of

11 names. The room, one particular room that I went to was room 15 which

12 was on the first level. I also did it from the internal stairway. I

13 also did it from a room which has been called the electrical workshop

14 which is on the ground floor. The noise travelled quite easily and I

15 could hear quite distinctly what was being said.

16 In addition to that, while I was working in the area upstairs

17 I could often hear people talking, laughing. I could hear noises and

18 doors closing.

19 Q. While you were at the camp, did you take measurements at various

20 locations in the camp?

21 A. Yes, I took two particular sets of measurements. I measured the pista

22 area, or what has been referred to as the pista area, which is the

23 area between the large hangar building and the administration

24 building, and I took a measurement from the corner of the hangar

25 building closest to the pista across to the front door of the white

Page 5470

1 house.

2 Q. The measurements that you took on the pista, what were the

3 measurements?

4 A. From the wall of the administration building -- perhaps I can

5 indicate where I took it?

6 Q. If you would, please?

7 A. From approximately this point here on the model across to this wall

8 of the large hangar building was 32 metres and 37 centimetres.

9 Q. While you were at the camp, were there concrete flower pots of a sort

10 in that pista area?

11 A. There were. There was a set of concrete flower boxes which ran along

12 the pista in this direction and ran along in this direction. I

13 measured between those two points and the distance was 28 metres and

14 78 centimetres.

15 Q. So you measured from the inside of the flower pots on one side to the

16 inside of the pots across the pista?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. What other measurements did you take?

19 A. Yes, I took one other measurement. Perhaps I could walk around to

20 indicate that? I took a measurement from this corner across to the

21 front door of the white house, and that distance was 37 centimetres --

22 36 metres, I am sorry, and 75 centimetres.

23 Q. You pointed, I believe, to the corner of the hangar building that is

24 closest to the

25 restaurant?

Page 5471

1 A. Yes, that is correct, across to the front door of the white house.

2 Q. Mr. Reid, if you could come around again, please? You have mentioned

3 some room numbers, and if you could show us what room numbers you are

4 talking about?

5 A. Yes, if I can remove the .....

6 Q. Please. First of all, Mr. Reid, you mentioned a room 15. Was that a

7 room number that was marked on the door?

8 A. Yes, in the camp there were two room 15s. Room 15, if I can

9 distinguish as B14, and there was also another room 15 which was

10 marked in texta colour on the door which was B7, which also

11 incorporated B8, B23 and B7 and a corridor B7 as well. That was marked

12 in texta colour, and that room was at the top of the external

13 staircase. Stencilled on that door in white was the room 7.

14 The room that I did the test in relation to the noise within

15 the hangar was at B14 -- if I can just take the top here off -- the

16 internal stairwell which is marked A15 on this model and the room, the

17 electrical workshop, which is marked A17 on this model.

18 Q. Thank you Mr. Reid. At my request, did you also review Prosecution

19 Exhibits 201, 227 and 228 which are photographs of various locations

20 at the former Keraterm detention camp?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. When were those photographs taken?

23 A. They were taken on the mission to Prijedor between 19th February and

24 4th March 1996.

25 Q. At my request, did you review Prosecution Exhibits 204, 205, 277A,

Page 5472

1 301, 302, 303, 304, 308 and 310 which are photographs of various

2 locations at Trnopolje?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. When were those photographs taken?

5 A. They were taken on the mission as well between 19th February and 4th

6 March 1996.

7 Q. At my request, did you review Prosecution Exhibits 203, 296 and 307

8 which are video tapes of various locations at Trnopolje?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. When were those video tapes taken?

11 A. They were again taken between 19th February and 4th March 1996 on the

12 mission to Prijedor.

13 Q. While you were at Trnopolje or while you were in opstina Prijedor,

14 did you measure the distance from Kozarac to the entry of what was the

15 former Trnopolje detention camp?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. What was that distance?

18 A. The distance from the main Prijedor/Banja Luka highway to the

19 entrance of what was in the summer of 1992 the entrance to the

20 Trnopolje camp was 5.2 kilometres.

21 Q. If we could have Prosecution Exhibit 280, please, provided to the

22 witness? Mr. Reid, if you could take a moment to orient yourself on

23 that plan and then if it could be placed on the overhead projector?

24 A. Yes. The road that I took the measurement from is this road

25 Prijedor/Banja Luka which is depicted in the red colour, along here,

Page 5473

1 Kozarusa, and then down and I came along this yellow road leading

2 from Kozarac, down to approximately this area here where the entrance

3 to the camp is. That is the Trnopolje/Kozarac road. That was 5.2

4 kilometre distance.

5 Q. So the 5.2 kilometres was from the intersection of the Prijedor/Banja

6 Luka road following this yellow route down to the entry to the camp?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. At my request, did you also review Prosecution Exhibits 197, 198,

9 199, 200, 202, 204, 205, 210, 212, 222A, B and C, 224, 237A, 299 and

10 300 which are photographs of various locations in the town of Kozarac?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. When were those photographs taken?

13 A. They were taken on the mission to opstina Prijedor between 19th

14 February and 4th March 1996.

15 Q. At my request, did you review Prosecution Exhibits 107 and 195, video

16 tapes of various locations in the town of Kozarac?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. When were those video tapes taken?

19 A. Again on the mission to opstina Prijedor, between 19th February and

20 4th March 1996.

21 Q. At my request, did you review Prosecution Exhibit 238A and B,

22 photographs of Benkovac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When were those photographs taken?

25 A. Between 19th February and 4th March 1996 on the mission to opstina

Page 5474

1 Prijedor.

2 Q. At my request, did you also review Prosecution Exhibit 284A through E

3 which are photographs of a location in the village of Sivci?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. When were those photographers taken?

6 A. Again they were taken on the mission to opstina Prijedor between 19th

7 February and 4th March 1996.

8 Q. At my request, did you also review Prosecution Exhibit 283, a video

9 tape of various locations at the village of Sivci?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. When was that video tape taken?

12 A. They were taken between 19th -- it was taken between 19th February

13 and 4th March 1996.

14 Q. At my request, did you review the photographs contained on

15 Prosecution Exhibit 287 as well as Prosecution Exhibits 288, 289, 290,

16 291, 293 and 295 which are photographs of various location in the

17 hamlet of Jaskici?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. When were those photographs taken?

20 A. Between 19th February and 4th March 1996.

21 Q. Were those taken by members of your team during your mission into the

22 opstina Prijedor?

23 A. Yes, they were.

24 Q. In regard to seized documents, I would like you to review the

25 following documents. If this document could be marked the next

Page 5475

1 Prosecution Exhibit which will be 319A and B? If I could have copies,

2 please? The original will be in the Serbo-Croatian language and B

3 will be an English translation.

4 If that could be provided to the witness, please? Mr. Reid,

5 what is that document?

6 A. This is a document that was seized in the Omarska iron ore mine

7 between 19th February and 4th March, and it is entitled "A break-down

8 of diesel consumption from 23 May 1992 until 20 October 1992".

9 Q. If you could put the English translation on the overhead projector,

10 please? What organisations does this document show as receiving fuel

11 from the Omarska mine during the period in question?

12 A. There are a number of organisations that are receiving diesel fuel

13 but, in particular, the Territorial Defence in Omarska, the JNA, the

14 police and the municipal Crisis Staff.

15 Q. On the document in the Serbo-Croatian is that how the JNA is

16 annotated as "JNA"?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 319A and B.

19 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 319A and B will be admitted.

21 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, this next Exhibit is a composite Exhibit which

22 will be 320A through L.

23 JUDGE STEPHEN: Before you leave this 319B, can the witness explain what

24 the matter is in the bottom half, I suppose, of the plan, the KSs and

25 what follows below them?

Page 5476

1 A. The KS, I take to mean Krizni Stab which is Crisis Staff. As to the

2 figures below that and the reason for it being there, I am unable to

3 explain, your Honour.

4 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Reid, what are these documents?

5 A. These are documents that were seized again at the Omarska iron ore

6 mine between 19th February and 4th March 1996, and they are reports on

7 the quantity of fuel received by individual vehicles.

8 Q. If you would start with A, please, and tell us the dates on each of

9 those documents?

10 A. Yes, the date on document A is 2nd June 1992. Document B is 4th June

11 1992. Document C is 6th June 1992. Document D is 7th June 1992.

12 Document E is 9th June 1992. Document F is 10th June 1992. Document

13 G is 11th June 1992. Document H is 12th June 1992. Document I is

14 15th June 1992. Document J is 16th June 1992. Document K is 18th

15 July 1992. Document L, it is 19 and 20 July 1992.

16 Q. 19 and 20 July?

17 A. I am sorry?

18 Q. 19 and 20 July?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. Each of those documents, A through L, is there a Serbo-Croatian and

21 then an English translation for each of those?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. Is there one vehicle that appears on all of those reports?

24 A. Yes, there is.

25 Q. What vehicle is that?

Page 5477

1 A. It is a TAM truck registered No. PD54546.

2 Q. Do those documents also appear to list the driver or the person who

3 is putting fuel into those documents (sic) ----

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. --- or into those vehicles?

6 A. Those vehicles, yes.

7 Q. Do the reports show tanks receiving fuel at Ormaska camp?

8 A. Yes, they do.

9 MISS HOLLIS: I would tender Prosecution Exhibit 320A through L.

10 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 320A through L will be admitted.

12 MISS HOLLIS: While you were on your mission in opstina Prijedor, did you

13 also request materials and documents from the Chief of Police of

14 opstina Prijedor?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Was this request pursuant to an order from a Judge of this Tribunal?

17 A. Yes, it was.

18 Q. Did the Chief of Police give you any of the requested materials or

19 documents?

20 A. No, he did not.

21 Q. Did the chief of Police allow any team members to review the

22 materials or documents?

23 A. No, he did not.

24 Q. What was the name of the Chief of Police with whom you were dealing?

25 A. Simo Drljaca.

Page 5478

1 Q. As part of your duties in relation to this case, were you provided

2 with documents sent to the Office of the Prosecutor by Germany

3 authorities?

4 A. Yes, I was.

5 Q. What documents did you receive?

6 A. On 29th December 1994 I received 10 volumes of folders, and they

7 contained the, if you like, German investigation in relation to the

8 accused. On 26th January 1995, I received volumes 11 through to 14 of

9 what I referred to as "seized" documents which were documents taken

10 from the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.

11 Q. You indicated that you received binders 1 through 10. Did you

12 receive a record of interview of the accused that was done by German

13 authorities?

14 A. Yes, I did. That was contained within volume 5.

15 Q. At the time that the Office of the Prosecutor received these

16 materials, how were they provided to the Office of the Prosecutor?

17 A. They were provided through the Embassy of the Federal Republic of

18 Germany here in The Hague.

19 Q. Once the Office of the Prosecutor received the seized documents, what

20 was done with those documents?

21 A. The documents or the binders 11 through to 14 were registered in the

22 normal fashion. They were photocopied and the originals of the seized

23 documents were placed in the vault.

24 Q. The German record of interview that you received, was it the original

25 record ----

Page 5479

1 A. No.

2 Q. --- of interview?

3 A. No, it is a copy of the record of interview.

4 Q. If I could have this Exhibit marked as Prosecution Exhibit 321A and

5 B, 321A being the German version and 321B being the English

6 translation. What is this document?

7 A. Yes, the first document that I am looking at, 321A, is the German

8 record of interview in the German language that was conducted between

9 German authorities and the accused on 11th, 12th and 13th October 1994

10 in Munich.

11 Q. As you look at that Exhibit, is there a gap in the page numbering in

12 that Exhibit?

13 A. Yes, there is. The page numbering commences (and I am speaking about

14 the paginated numbers in the top right hand corner) at 3 and it goes

15 through to the number 12, I think it is, it is number 12, and then it

16 begins again at paginated page 30.

17 The reason for this was that at the conclusion of the first

18 day of the interview, 11th October 1994, an annexure was placed at the

19 back of that day's interview which became paginated pages in these

20 volumes, 13 to 29. The next day's interview, 12th October, commences

21 at paginated page 30 and goes through to the conclusion of the

22 interview at page 51.

23 MISS HOLLIS: I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 321A and B.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

25 MR. KAY: Your Honour, there is no objection. We just need to check the

Page 5480

1 translation from the German and if we could hold that as a proviso?

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Subject to that opportunity, Exhibit 321A and B will

3 be admitted.

4 MR. KAY: Thank you.

5 MISS HOLLIS: If I could have this, please, marked Prosecution Exhibit

6 322A and B? Mr. Reid, if you will look at this document and on A

7 there are numbers 13 through 22?

8 A. Yes, this is the document that was inserted as an annexure at the end

9 of the first day when Mr. Tadic was interviewed in Munich, and it is a

10 letter addressed to the Consulate of the Federal Republic of

11 Yugoslavia in Munich. From 23, paginated page 23, to paginated page

12 29 was the German translation of this document.

13 MISS HOLLIS: The Prosecution offers Exhibit 322A and B.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

15 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 322A and B will be admitted.

17 MISS HOLLIS: If we could have this Exhibit marked as Prosecution Exhibit

18 323A and B? This has a Dutch or, excuse me, a German stamp of

19 1.12.24, for the Defence's assistance.

20 Mr. Reid, what is this document?

21 A. This is a blank form from Republika Srpska, Prijedor municipality,

22 Municipal Secretariat for Town Planning, Housing and Public Utility

23 Services and Property Law, and it is a blank form of a decision. But

24 there is nothing filled in in the areas where there should be.

25 Q. We received this Exhibit from whom?

Page 5481

1 A. This was received from the German authorities on 26th January 1995.

2 Q. From where was this Exhibit obtained?

3 A. This document was taken from the home of the accused when it was

4 searched on his arrest in Munich on 12th February 1994.

5 MISS HOLLIS: The Prosecution offers Exhibit 323A and B.

6 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 323A and B will be admitted.

8 MISS HOLLIS: If this Exhibit could please be marked Prosecution Exhibit

9 324? For the Defence's purposes, this is 1.12.47. Mr. Reid, what is

10 this document?

11 A. This is again a document that was found at the home of the accused on

12 the day that he was arrested in Munich. It is a piece of blank paper

13 and it is a round seal with the inscription "Republika Srpska, local

14 commune, Srpski, Kozarac, Prijedor municipality".

15 Q. From whom did we receive this Exhibit?

16 A. From the German authorities on 26th January 1995.

17 Q. Where did they obtain this Exhibit?

18 A. At the home of the accused on the day of his arrest when the house

19 was searched.

20 MISS HOLLIS: We offer Prosecution Exhibit 324.

21 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 324 will be admitted.

23 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 325 for

24 identification? This is 1.12.34. Mr. Reid, what are these documents?

25 A. This is a document, a number of pieces of paper, with the heading

Page 5482

1 "Serb Democratic Party", underneath that "Prijedor", underneath that

2 "No." On the bottom right-hand corner is the seal of the Serb

3 Democratic Party.

4 Q. Does that Exhibit include an English translation?

5 A. Yes, it does.

6 Q. From whom did we receive that Exhibit?

7 A. The German authorities on 26th January 1995.

8 Q. Where did they obtain that Exhibit?

9 A. At the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.

10 MISS HOLLIS: I tender Prosecution Exhibit 325 for identification.

11 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 325 will be admitted.

13 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 326 for

14 identification? This is 1.12.68. [To the witness]: What is this

15 Exhibit?

16 A. This is a number of blank pieces of paper and in the bottom

17 right-hand corner of each of these pieces of paper is the round seal

18 "Republika Srpska, Local Commune, Srpski, Kozarac, Prijedor

19 municipality". On a number of these pages there is also what appears

20 to be an initial within that seal.

21 Q. From whom was this Exhibit received by the Office of the Prosecutor?

22 A. We received this from the German authorities on 26th January 1995.

23 Q. From where did they obtain the Exhibit?

24 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.

25 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 326 for identification.

Page 5483

1 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 326 will be admitted.

3 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 327 for

4 identification? This is 1.12.69. [To the witness]: What is this

5 Exhibit?

6 A. This is a document which is Municipal Secretariat for Town Planning,

7 Public Utilities, Property Law, Prijedor. It is a certificate and

8 again it is blank where there should be words or figures filled in.

9 Q. From whom did the Office of the Prosecutor receive this Exhibit?

10 A. I am sorry, just before I answer that, there is also a seal in the

11 right-hand corner. We received that from the German authorities on

12 26th January 1995.

13 Q. Where did they obtain that?

14 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich on

15 12th February 1994.

16 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 327 for identification.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

18 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 327 will be admitted.

20 MISS HOLLIS: May I ask that this Exhibit be marked Prosecution Exhibit

21 328 for identification? [To the witness]: What is this Exhibit?

22 A. This Exhibit is a sheet of paper, top left-hand corner "Republika

23 Srpska, Prijedor municipality, Local Commune, Serbian Kozarac", under

24 that is the word "Number" with a space, under that is the "Date" with

25 a space, and it is a certificate and in the bottom right-hand corner

Page 5484

1 is a seal "Republika Srpska, local commune, Serbian Kozarac, Prijedor

2 municipality".

3 Q. Is there an English translation for this document as well?

4 A. Yes, there is.

5 MISS HOLLIS: I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 328 for identification.

6 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that one document or is there an A or B?

8 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I just had it as Prosecution Exhibit 328.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is fine. 328 will be admitted.

10 MISS HOLLIS: If I could have this Exhibit marked, please, Prosecution

11 Exhibit 329A and B for identification, B being the English

12 translation? This is document 1.7.2.

13 [To the witness]: What is this Exhibit?

14 A. This document is the employment book of the accused Dusko Tadic.

15 Q. Does that employment book indicate that it is a duplicate book?

16 A. Yes. In the English translation the word "duplicate" is there, but

17 on the first page you can see quite clearly at the top of the page

18 "duplicate".

19 Q. In that book that you have before you, 329A, is the word "duplicate"

20 written in ink on that book?

21 A. Yes, it is in blue ink.

22 Q. According to that book, by whom was the accused employed in October

23 1992?

24 A. October of?

25 Q. 1992.

Page 5485

1 A. By the Republika Srpska, municipality Prijedor, Local Commune, Srpski

2 Kozarac.

3 Q. From whom did the Office of the Prosecutor receive that Exhibit?

4 A. From the German authorities.

5 Q. Where did they obtain that Exhibit?

6 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich on

7 12th February 1994.

8 MISS HOLLIS: I tender Prosecution Exhibit 329A and B.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

10 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 329A and B will be admitted.

12 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 330A and B, B

13 being the English translation? This is document 1.12.73. Mr. Reid,

14 what is this document?

15 A. This document is dated 30th December 1980 and it is the registration

16 of a karate club in Kozarac by the name of "Borac", B-O-R-A-C.

17 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive this document?

18 A. From the German authorities.

19 Q. Where did they obtain the document?

20 A. At the home of the accused on the day of his arrest on 12th February

21 1994.

22 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 330A and B.

23 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 330A and B will be admitted.

25 MISS HOLLIS: If this document, this Exhibit, could be marked Prosecution

Page 5486

1 Exhibit 331A and B? [To the witness]: What is that document?

2 A. Yes, this document is a confirmation that Dusko Tadic is a coach in

3 the karate club, Borac, in Kozarac and the confirmation is issued on

4 his request for enrollment to the senior coaching school in Zagreb.

5 It is dated 15th March 1981.

6 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive that document?

7 A. From the German authorities on 26th January 1995.

8 Q. Where did they obtain that document?

9 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.

10 MISS HOLLIS: I tender Prosecution Exhibit 331A and B.

11 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 331A and B will be admitted.

13 MISS HOLLIS: If I could have this Exhibit marked Prosecution Exhibit 332A

14 and B? This is document 1.12.71. [To the witness]: What is that

15 document?

16 A. This is a certificate which is issued by the Serbian Republic of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry of the Interior, Security Services

18 Centre, Banja Luka, Public Security Station, Prijedor, and it is

19 signed by Simo Drljaca.

20 Q. Does the date appear on that document?

21 A. Yes, it is June 1992. The first numeral is 1, but one digit is

22 illegible to give the full date.

23 Q. From whom did the Office of the Prosecutor receive that document?

24 A. From the German authorities.

25 Q. Where did they obtain that document?

Page 5487

1 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.

2 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 332A and B.

3 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 332A and B will be admitted.

5 MISS HOLLIS: If this can be marked Prosecution Exhibit 333A and B? This

6 is document 1.12.67. [To the witness]: What is this document?

7 A. This is a document relating to the decision on the constitution of

8 the Kozarac branch of the SDS and it is dated 15th August 1992, and it

9 is signed by the acting President, Goran Borovnica.

10 Q. Does that document basically set out the framework of the organs of

11 the SDS as it operates in Kozarac?

12 A. Yes, it does.

13 MISS HOLLIS: I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 333A and B.

14 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 333A and B will be admitted.

16 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 334A and B.

17 Pertaining to Prosecution Exhibit 333, Mr. Reid, from whom did we

18 receive that document?

19 A. Yes, we received 333A and B from the German authorities.

20 Q. Where did they obtain the document?

21 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.

22 Q. 334A and B for identification is 1.12.65. What is this document, Mr.

23 Reid?

24 A. This document is a decision on the resumption of work of the Kozarac

25 Local Commune. It is dated 22 August 1992, and it is signed by the

Page 5488

1 Chairman of the Citizens' Assembly, Bosko Dragicevic.

2 Q. Is B an English translation of that?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. In this document, according to the document, what two organs does it

5 indicate as the working organs of the commune?

6 A. The Citizens' and Working People's Assembly, and the local board of

7 the Kozarac SDS.

8 Q. We received that document from whom?

9 A. From the German authorities.

10 Q. Where did they obtain the document?

11 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.

12 MISS HOLLIS: I tender Prosecution Exhibit 334A and B.

13 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 334A and B will be admitted.

15 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 335A and B?

16 This is document 1.12.64. What is this document?

17 A. This document is a decision on the relocation of residents of the

18 Local Commune, it is dated 31 August 1992, and it is signed by the

19 President of the local board of the SDS Kozarac, Dusko Tadic.

20 Q. The Prosecution received that document from whom?

21 A. From the German authorities.

22 Q. Where did they obtain the document?

23 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.

24 Q. Part B of that is an English translation?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 5489

1 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 335A and B.

2 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 335A and B will be admitted.

4 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 336A and B.

5 This is document 1.12.32. What is this document?

6 A. This is a decision that was taken at the meeting of the local board

7 of the Kozarac SDS appointing Dusko (Ostoja) Tadic as the Party

8 representative for the Kozarac area.

9 Q. What is the date of that document?

10 A. 21 March 1993.

11 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive that document?

12 A. From the German authorities.

13 Q. Where did they obtain the document?

14 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.

15 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 336A and B for identification.

16 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 336 will be admitted.

18 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 337A and B.

19 This is document 1.12.60. What is this document?

20 A. This is a document which was sent to the SDS Municipal Committee in

21 Prijedor and its suggestions re. the names -- the change of names of

22 institutions, streets and squares in the area of the Serb Kozarac

23 Local Commune. It is dated 21 March 1993.

24 Q. It is sent from whom?

25 A. From the Republika Srspka, Prijedor municipality, Local Commune, Serb

Page 5490

1 Kozarac.

2 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive this document?

3 A. From the German authorities.

4 Q. Where did they obtain the document?

5 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest in Munich.

6 Q. Is part B of that Exhibit the English translation?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 337A and B.

9 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 337A and B will be admitted.

11 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 338A and B.

12 This is 1.12.23. Mr. Reid, what is this document?

13 A. This is a document sent by Dusko Tadic, son of Ostoja, Kozarac, to

14 the Municipal Secretariat for City Planning, Housing, Utilities and

15 Real Estate in Prijedor, and the subject is the change of location of

16 business premises. It is dated Prijedor, 5.8.1992, and it is signed

17 "Dusko Tadic".

18 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive this exhibit?

19 A. From the German authorities.

20 Q. Where did they obtain the Exhibit?

21 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.

22 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 338 A and B.

23 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 338A and B will be admitted.

25 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 339A and B?

Page 5491

1 This is document 1.12.41. Part B of that Exhibit is the English

2 translation. What is this document?

3 A. This is a document which lists seven business premises with their

4 address, the previous owner and the floor space. It is date 29th

5 December 1992, Prijedor. It appears to be a surveyor's report as it

6 is an on site investigation conducted by a surveyor, but the name is

7 unclear.

8 Q. Are one of the premises listed there the Okej cafe?

9 A. Yes, No. 2, there is the Okej cafe bar at Ulica Edvarda Kardelja

10 Street, previously owned by Sead Dracic, floor space approximately 50

11 square metres.

12 Q. Where did the Prosecution obtain this document?

13 A. From the German authorities.

14 Q. Where did they obtain it?

15 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.

16 MISS HOLLIS: I tender Prosecution Exhibit 339A and B.

17 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 339A and B will be admitted.

19 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, do you intend to take a break or do you want to

20 continue through?

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, we will take a recess. I was just looking. We

22 started at 10 to 3. We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

23 (4.30 p.m.)

24 (Short Adjournment)

25 (4.50 p.m.)

Page 5492

1 MISS HOLLIS: If I could please have this document marked as Prosecution

2 Exhibit 340A and B for identification? This is document 1.12.14. B

3 is the English translation. Mr. Reid, what is that document?

4 A. This is a decision of the Republika Srpska, Prijedor Municipality

5 Executive Committee, dated 22 January 1993, authorising three persons

6 the leasing of premises for a one year period.

7 Q. Does Mr. Tadic's name appear on that listing?

8 A. Yes, at No. 2 is the name Dusko Tadic, Cafe Okej in Ulica, E.

9 Kardelja Street, 50 square metres, previously owned by Sead Dracic.

10 It is signed by the President of the Executive Council, Dr. Milan

11 Kovacevic.

12 MISS HOLLIS: I offer Prosecution Exhibit 340A and B for identification.

13 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 340A and B will be admitted.

15 MISS HOLLIS: If this document could be marked Exhibit 341A and B, B is

16 the English translation. What is this document?

17 A. This is a document on agreement on lease of business premises entered

18 into in Prijedor on 26th January 1993 between Prijedor Public Utility

19 Service, represented by the Director, and Tadic (Ostoja) Dusko from

20 Prijedor, Pecani B2/6, lessee.

21 Q. What are the premises that are being leased?

22 A. The premises are in Prijedor, Edvarda Kardelja Street, consisting of

23 50 square metres, consisting of one room.

24 Q. Does the agreement indicate the rent amount per square metre for

25 those premises?

Page 5493

1 A. Yes, it does. It is 20 Deutsche Marks per square metre.

2 Q. Mr. Reid, both Prosecution Exhibit 340 and 341 for identification,

3 from whom did the Prosecution receive those documents?

4 A. From the German authorities.

5 Q. Where did they obtain the documents?

6 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.

7 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I tender Prosecution Exhibit 341A and B.

8 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 341A and B will be admitted.

10 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 342A and B, B is

11 the English translation. What is this document?

12 A. This is a document that is dated 8 April 1993. It is an annex to the

13 tenancy agreement, and the tenant is Talundzic, Hasan, and the address

14 is Dure Pucara, B2, Pecani, Lamela II.

15 Q. From whom did the Prosecution obtain this document?

16 A. From the German authorities.

17 Q. Where did the German authorities obtain this document?

18 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.

19 MISS HOLLIS: I tender Prosecution Exhibit 342 for identification.

20 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 342A and B will be admitted.

22 MISS HOLLIS: If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 343 for

23 identification, A and B, B is the English translation. This is

24 document No. 1.12.13.

25 What is this document?

Page 5494

1 A. This is a decision which is dated 1 June 1993. It is issued by

2 Republika Srpska, Prijedor municipality, Municipal Secretariat for

3 Town Planning, Housing and Utility Services and Property Law Prijedor

4 and, in short, it is an eviction notice.

5 Q. To whom?

6 A. To the accused Dusan Tadic.

7 Q. To be evicted from what premises?

8 A. From the Pecani estate, B2, apartment building 2, entrance 4 --

9 sorry, third floor.

10 Q. From whom did the Prosecution obtain this document?

11 A. From the German authorities.

12 Q. Where did they obtain the document?

13 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.

14 Q. I offer Prosecution Exhibit 343A and B.

15 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 343A and B will be admitted.

17 MISS HOLLIS: If this document could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 344A

18 and B for identification? B will be the English translation. What is

19 this document?

20 A. This is a document that is dated 8.8.1993 entitled "My Work Report

21 in 1990-1993".

22 Q. From whom is this or by whom is this document written or prepared?

23 A. By the accused.

24 Q. From who did the Prosecution receive this document?

25 A. From the German authorities.

Page 5495

1 Q. Where did the German authorities obtain this document?

2 A. At the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.

3 Q. I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 344A and B for identification.

4 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 344A and B will be admitted.

6 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Reid, at my request did you review Defence Exhibit 8

7 which is the military record book of the accused?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive that military record book?

10 A. From the German authorities.

11 Q. Where did they obtain that book?

12 A. From the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.

13 Q. Your Honour, at the time the record book was offered into evidence

14 and admitted we did not have a complete translation of all of the

15 portions of the book. The Prosecution has now prepared such a

16 complete translation and I have it here available to assist the Court,

17 if you wish it.

18 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So we will have 345 and then 340A and B?

20 MISS HOLLIS: If you want to make it a separate Exhibit or if it would

21 assist you as part of the Defence Exhibit, however you want to handle

22 it.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You can make it Exhibit ----

24 MISS HOLLIS: Defence D8.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I recall that the Defence offered it to Colonel ----

Page 5496

1 MR. KAY: Yes, we did.

2 MISS HOLLIS: This is simply to assist the Court.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Good. Thank you.

4 MISS HOLLIS: Do you wish me to mark it as a separate Exhibit?

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: However you wish.

6 MISS HOLLIS: Right, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are doing well with this stack here! Just keep

8 going.

9 MISS HOLLIS: If the Defence has no objection, perhaps we can make it

10 Defence Exhibit 8A so that we keep it together.

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: A good idea. We tender that!

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It will be a joint Exhibit -- well, it will be 8A,

13 is that it, Defence 8A?

14 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. We have one to be marked as 8A and we

15 have three copies. We have previously provided the Defence with a

16 copy.

17 Mr. Reid, at my request did you also review the following

18 Exhibits: Prosecution Exhibit 146, Prosecution Exhibit 147, 148, 149,

19 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, and 156?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. From whom did the Prosecution receive those Exhibits?

22 A. From the German authorities.

23 Q. Where did the German authorities obtain those Exhibits?

24 A. At the home of the accused on the day of his arrest.

25 Q. Mr. Reid, in the course of your investigation into the events that

Page 5497

1 occurred in opstina Prijedor, did you determine that the word "pista"

2 was often used as a reference for a concrete area?

3 A. Yes, that is correct. In fact, some witnesses who were detained in

4 Keraterm camp referred to a concrete area within that camp as a

5 "pista" as well.

6 Q. Mr. Reid, you had mentioned earlier that when you were at the former

7 Omarska detention centre you went into the buildings there including

8 the large hangar. When you were in the large hangar did you see any

9 types of hooks or pulleys hanging from the ceiling of that building?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. If I could have these two photographs marked as Prosecution Exhibits

12 345 and 346, and if a copy could be given to the Defence. There are

13 three additional copies. It does not matter which is which.

14 Sir, do you recognise what is depicted on those photographs?

15 A. Yes, this is within the large hangar building, the ground floor

16 workshop area. In Exhibit 345 in the top centre is the type of pulley

17 that I have described, that is being described, and in Exhibit 346 in

18 the top centre is a similar pulley.

19 Q. If these could be put on the overhead projector, please.

20 A. 345.

21 Q. Could you point to the pulley that you were talking about?

22 A. Yes, this is the pulley here.

23 Q. That pulley, where does it descend from?

24 A. I am not sure if it descends completely from the roof or from a bar

25 or from a rafter, iron girder from the ceiling.

Page 5498

1 Q. Was this photograph taken during the mission, the OTP mission to

2 opstina Prijedor in the spring of this year?

3 A. Yes, it was.

4 Q. If you could put Prosecution Exhibit 346 on the overhead. If you

5 could point to the ----

6 A. The pulley is this area here [The witness indicated].

7 Q. Again where does that descend from?

8 A. From the ceiling or an iron girder.

9 Q. These are two of the pulley-type structures you found in that

10 building?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. I offer Prosecution Exhibits 345 and 346 for identification.

13 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 345 and 346 will be admitted.

15 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Reid, I have asked you questions about documents that

16 were seized from various locations in opstina Prijedor, including the

17 former detention camps. Were all of these documents seized pursuant

18 to the Court order that you took with you on this mission?

19 A. Yes, they were.

20 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions of this witness, your Honour.

21 MR. KAY: I have no cross-examination, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Reid being permanently

23 excused?

24 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour -- no, your Honour. I had in mind he would be

25 around.

Page 5499

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I know what you mean. Mr. Reid, you are ----

2 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we do request he be subject to recall.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Reid, you are excused. However, you should

4 continue to make yourself available for you may be recalled.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you for coming.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

8 (The witness withdrew)

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours, that is the evidence of the Prosecution.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay or Mr. Wladimiroff?

12 MR. KAY: Your Honour, the Defence, as you know, will be filing a motion

13 which the Court will receive on Wednesday of next week concerning

14 submissions of no case to answer in relation to certain of the

15 charges. The Court is to go into recess now until 10th September, as

16 we understand it, and the Defence are to visit the area that we are

17 concerned with in this court next week. We will be returning in

18 various stages after that visit.

19 The Defence case, as we see it, will probably be opening then

20 on 10th September after the Court has made observations or rulings in

21 relation to the submissions. We will be inviting the Court to receive

22 oral argument, such as the Court requires it, in relation to those

23 motions of no case.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You then expect you will be filing the

25 written motion to dismiss some or all of the counts by August 21st, is

Page 5500

1 that Wednesday of next week?

2 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Prosecution then will have 14 days to respond to

4 that motion. Then we would like to hear oral arguments on the motion

5 on September 10th at 10 a.m. That was the date we were to return from

6 the three-week recess that has been requested.

7 MR. KAY: Yes.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. That resolves that matter. A few other

9 matters we would like to discuss. Yesterday afternoon we discussed

10 the Defence's motion for protective measures, and heard argument in

11 closed session. We expect that we will issue the decision with

12 respect to that motion by tomorrow at 5 p.m., so that you will have

13 that to take with you.

14 Earlier I mentioned that the parties should endeavour to

15 submit their comments on the transcript of witness L by 5 p.m.

16 tomorrow. Once again, if we have the comments from the parties by 5

17 p.m. tomorrow, then the Witness Unit will be able fully to look at it

18 and the transcript, perhaps, will be released then by Tuesday of next

19 week.

20 Mr. Wladimiroff, you agreed that you will notify the Trial

21 Chamber by August 28th regarding the two-week period that you would

22 need for video conferencing.

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, I will, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think that is all that we have regarding

25 preliminary matters. The Trial Chamber wants the parties to know that

Page 5501

1 we will be available, the Judges will be available during this recess

2 here in The Hague. Should you need to communicate with the Trial

3 Chamber, contact the Registry and the Registry will be in touch with

4 us.

5 Are there other matters we need to consider at this time, Mr.

6 Niemann?

7 MR. NIEMANN: There is one matter I wish to enquire of the Defence through

8 your Honours, and that is whether the Defence will be providing the

9 Prosecution and the Court, or the Prosecution, with a prior list of

10 witnesses indicating the intended order of witnesses as they propose

11 to call them.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

13 MR. KAY: We had not intended doing that. We have supplied the names of

14 the alibi witnesses and expert witnesses that we intended to call. We

15 had not intended to supply a list of names of all our witnesses. It

16 does not seem to be something within the Rules.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, are you referring to the expert

18 witnesses and the alibi witnesses? Are you asking for an order, an

19 order in which the Defence would call the witnesses, or are you asking

20 for a list of all of the witnesses?

21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, what we are asking is whether or not a list of

22 the witnesses that the Defence intend to call, whether or not they

23 will be supplied in advance of them calling the witnesses. So, yes, I

24 am referring to all of the witnesses, but whether we will be provided

25 with that.

Page 5502

1 If I might just go on, your Honour, it does touch upon

2 important matters because we have issues such as video conferencing.

3 We do not know when those witnesses will be called. We have been

4 given no indication for it. Particularly with respect to the

5 placement of expert witnesses, we do not know where they are going to

6 be placed. In our submission, it would considerably assist the smooth

7 running of the proceedings if we were to be provided with these in

8 advance of them being called.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

10 MR. KAY: Yes, we will be as helpful as possible. May I say we do not

11 know our own order yet because we do not know when the video link is

12 going to be in operation. We are hopeful that the live witnesses can

13 be dealt with first, but they are still ongoing discussions between

14 the Defence and Witness Unit as to how precisely that is to take

15 place, whether the witnesses are to be brought over in dribs and

16 drabs, batches or as a job lot. So we do not know our order yet, but

17 we will certainly advise the Prosecution when we are to call our

18 expert witnesses, because they will obviously want to have their own

19 experts present and available to listen to the testimony.

20 We are still working on this, your Honour, and we are unable

21 to provide them any indication at this stage, not least because we do

22 not yet know when the availability of certain witnesses is going to be

23 possible.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is why I was trying to ask the Prosecution

25 whether he was focusing on expert witnesses or alibi witnesses or both

Page 5503

1 of them, plus all of the other witnesses. It seems to me that he is

2 requesting a list of the order for all witnesses. With respect to the

3 alibi and the expert witnesses, it seems to me you can give, certainly

4 as to expert witnesses, the order in which you intend to call them.

5 As to the alibi witnesses, you should be able to give them an order at

6 some point. The question is when. When you return back from visiting

7 the Former Yugoslavia it seems to me you will then be in a good

8 position to know what your order will be.

9 As far as the video conferencing is concerned, I thought you

10 had indicated that you would be calling your live witnesses first when

11 we returned in September?

12 MR. KAY: Yes.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The persons, that is, who will come to The Hague.

14 Are you in a position at this time to give the order of those

15 witnesses and then perhaps in the next week or two weeks you will know

16 better about the remaining alibi witnesses?

17 MR. KAY: We will certainly know better after our visit that is pending.

18 The only reason why I hesitate over the video conferencing is I know

19 the Court advised us it was only for a two-week period. It is going a

20 fixed two-week period.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.

22 MR. KAY: That may fall into the middle of live witness time.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why do you not provide the list to the Prosecutor of

24 the order of the expert witnesses and alibi witnesses whom you intend

25 to call. As the Prosecution has changed their order, you may change

Page 5504

1 your order.

2 MR. KAY: Yes.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have received five, six different Prosecution

4 lists, and they have worked with you and changed the order. So we are

5 certainly willing to handle your list in the same manner.

6 MR. KAY: I am obliged.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So if you can provide them with an order, a list of

8 expert witnesses and alibi witnesses and the order in which you intend

9 to call them as best you can estimate at this time, understanding that

10 there will be a change, by the Friday before -- when would you want

11 them Mr. Niemann?

12 MR. NIEMANN: The Friday before the commencement of the case.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Friday then before we commence. That would then

14 be September 6th.

15 MR. KAY: Yes.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Also by then we will be in touch, the Registry will

17 be in touch with you and I am sure we will have the video

18 conferencing, still keeping our fingers crossed that we will have that

19 in place. I am sure that by the Friday before we will have

20 established the two-week period. Things should be working pretty

21 smoothly by then. But then I am optimistic by nature!

22 MR. KAY: I think one has to be given the problems we have faced over the

23 last few months. We are aiming to start with policy witnesses, your

24 Honour, and I am sure that will assist the Prosecution rather in the

25 same way that they did.

Page 5505

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are these expert witnesses?

2 MR. KAY: Yes.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. So then you will provide them with that

4 list by the Friday before, but just of expert and alibi witnesses. We

5 will consider a request that you may wish to make for all witnesses at

6 a later time.

7 Are there other matters that we need to consider at this time?

8 MR. KAY: Nothing, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Then we will adjourn until Tuesday,

10 September 10th at 10 a.m.

11 (5.20 p.m.)

12 (The court adjourned until Tuesday, 10th September 1996)

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25