1 Tuesday, 17th September 1996.
2 (10.00 a.m.)
4 (pages 5795 to 5808: Hearing in closed session)
1 (Open Session)
2 (10.43 a.m.)
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, who will be responsible for bringing
4 in the witness?
5 MR. KAY: Your Honour, the witness is just outside in the corridor
6 and if the usher could bring in witness U, please, who is the
7 first Defence witness?
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you.
9 ^^ Witness U, called.
10 MR. KAY: This is a witness with facial distortion and open session
11 and the pseudonym of U.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I appreciate the listing. Perhaps we need to
13 talk with you about this in closed session. We are having some
14 difficulty following, and I just want to make sure that
15 I understand who will be the next witness and what type of
16 protective measures. But thank you for telling me. Let us see
17 if we can get some advance notice so that the Judges will at
18 know at least for the day what to expect.
19 MR. KAY: Yes.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is
21 being handed to you.
22 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
24 (The witness was sworn)
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.
26 Examined by MR. KAY
27 MR. KAY: Your Honour, as witness U is in open session as well, the
28 blinds on this side of the Court should now be raised.
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may proceed.
2 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.
3 Q. Witness, you will be known in Court as witness U as a pseudonym
4 for your name. Can you tell the Court that you have lived in
5 Kozarac before the conflict?
6 A. Yes, I lived there.
7 Q. Before the conflict, how long had you lived in Kozarac for?
8 A. Well, I lived there for 42 years.
9 Q. Did you have a job in Kozarac?
10 A. [redacted]
12 Q. [redacted]
13 A. [redacted]
14 Q. [redacted]
15 A. [redacted]
17 Q. If we could have a look at that on a map so we can put it in our
18 mind? D13, please, if that could be put before the witness?
19 I have additional copies of this for your Honours, and it might
20 be useful, as it is planned to be used by the Defence on many
21 occasions, if rather than seeing it on the monitor you have your
22 own copy of D13. (Handed).
23 There is a good suggestion here that if one goes on
24 the overhead projector as well.
25 Witness, if you could just look at that plan of the
26 Kozarac area that I have put before you, do you see [redacted] on
27 the plan?
28 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. If you just point to that plan on the overhead projector to your
2 right and mark there [redacted]
3 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].
4 Q. Did you live actually at that part of [redacted] or nearby?
5 A. Yes, in a part of [redacted]
7 Q. Thank you. Were you a married man in Kozarac before the
9 A. Yes. Yes, yes, I was.
10 Q. What nationality was your wife?
11 A. [redacted]
12 Q. Did you have children?
13 A. Yes, I have a son.
14 Q. Did he live with you or live away from home?
15 A. With me, with me, he lived and worked.
16 Q. Did you know the Tadic family in Kozarac?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Did you know Dusko Tadic?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. For how many years had you known Dusko Tadic?
21 A. Well, I would say 30 years at least.
22 Q. What other members of his family did you know?
23 A. Well, I know his whole family, his father, his mother,
24 brothers. I know all of them.
25 Q. [redacted]
27 A. [redacted]
1 Q. How often before the conflict did you see Dusko Tadic?
2 A. Why, I used to see him almost every day, because whenever I went
3 out into the field I would pass by his house, and then when he
4 opened his coffee bar I frequented it. I saw him every day.
5 Q. What sort of cafe bar did he open? What sort of people went
7 A. Well, it was frequented by all sorts of people, by people of all
8 origins, Croats and Muslims and Serbs. They all frequented his
9 coffee bar.
10 Q. Did it have any sort of reputation as being a Serb meeting
11 place, people from Serb background, whether they used that
12 instead of other coffee bars?
13 A. As far as I know, I never heard anything along those lines.
14 Q. Were you politically involved in any way before the conflict in
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you a member of any of the political parties?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you do your JNA service?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What years did you serve in the JNA?
22 A. '74, to '75.
23 Q. In what capacity?
24 A. I was in engineering service.
25 Q. The part of Kozarac where you lived [redacted], what was the
26 makeup of the families in your area in terms of ethnic
28 A. There were Serbs, Croats and two or three Muslim households.
1 Q. Do you recollect the time when Kozarac was shelled in 1992?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you remember what date that was?
4 A. The 24th May, around 5 past 2 or 10 past 2 in the afternoon.
5 Q. Whereabouts were you at that time when that shelling happened?
6 A. That day I was at home [redacted].
7 Q. In your home with you at that time was who?
8 A. There were my wife, my brother and my sister-in-law.
9 Q. Where was your son at this time?
10 A. My son was in Prijedor. He had gone there eight days before
12 Q. When this shelling happened, did you know it was going to
13 happen? Did you have any warning that anything like that would
14 take place?
15 A. No, I did not, and I was confident that there would be no
17 Q. Were you aware of an ultimatum that had been given by the
18 authorities in Prijedor to the police in Kozarac concerning the
19 handing up of weapons to the civil authorities?
20 A. Yes, I did. I heard about it.
21 Q. Did you have any involvement in matters relating to that
23 A. No, no, I did not.
24 Q. Did you know what the deadline was for the ultimatum?
25 A. I think it was Sunday, Sunday noon, I think that was the
27 Q. When the shelling of Kozarac took place, how did you react?
28 What did you do?
1 A. Well, I went up to shelter, to a stream called Hokovac, there
2 were some summer cottages, and so I went there with my wife and
3 other people.
4 Q. If we look at the map that is in front of you which shows
5 Kozarac [redacted], can you tell us roughly in which district
6 it was that you went to where these summer cottages were?
7 A. Here were these cottages, next to the bridge, to the right, some
8 150 metres from the bridge to the right, roughly here.
9 Q. Thank you. Did other people also go to that area where you
11 A. Yes, yes. They came from Kozarac, civilians, women and
12 children, they came up there to that shelter.
13 Q. About how many people, are you able to say if you can, came out
14 of Kozarac to that area where you were and took shelter?
15 A. There must have been not less than 2,000 to 3,000 inhabitants.
16 Q. How soon after the shelling started was it that you left your
18 A. May 27th it was when I left [redacted] in the
19 morning at 7 o'clock.
20 Q. If I can take you back to the start of the shelling on 24th May
21 and you told us about going to the area where the summer
22 cottages were, was it a few hours before you moved out of your
23 home or did you move out of your home straightaway?
24 A. Well, it could have been about one or two hours later that
25 I went up there to that shelter, rather, to those summer
27 Q. Where you took shelter, were there other families with you?
28 A. Yes, yes, there were Muslims and Serbs and Croats.
1 Q. Were you able to see what was happening down in Kozarac from
2 this place where you were taking shelter?
3 A. No, no, it was -- one could not see.
4 Q. Were you able to tell in any way where the shelling was coming
6 A. Well, it came from Prijedor, I think, according to what other
7 people said and, judging by shells, they must have been fired
8 from the direction of Prijedor.
9 Q. Having taken shelter in this area of the weekend cottages, did
10 you return to your home at all, or did you just stay there in
11 the shelter?
12 A. We stayed in the shelter. I did not go back home.
13 Q. Can you recollect how long the shelling continued for?
14 A. Well, it was Sunday, then Monday and Tuesday, three days. It
15 went on for three days.
16 Q. So would that be until 26th May?
17 A. Yes, until the 26th May, until the 27th May, I think it was
18 around 4 o'clock in the morning of 27th May that the shelling
20 Q. Can you tell us at all about the kind of shelling, the amount of
21 bombardment, that was taking place? How frequent were the guns
23 A. What type they were, I do not know, but it would go on for about
24 one hour or two, and then there would be a lull again of about
25 one hour or two and then would start again, but what type, what
26 calibres, I do not know that.
27 Q. At what stage did you leave that shelter where you had taken
1 A. I left it on 27th May '92 around 7 o'clock in the morning.
2 Q. Did others leave the area where you were in at that time as
4 A. Yes, yes, they did.
5 Q. Do you know if other people had left the area before you did on
6 27th May at 7 o'clock in the morning, had others moved out from
7 the area where you were taking refuge?
8 A. Yes, some left on 26th May towards half past 7, 8 o'clock in the
9 evening and they went in the -- towards Kozarac.
10 Q. Was there any information or message passed that let people know
11 about moving out of the region and moving down into Kozarac?
12 A. Yes, policemen, Muslims who came up there on 26th May, they came
13 up there, they told us to do withdraw towards Kozarac and some
14 people did. We did not.
15 Q. The area that you had taken shelter in near [redacted] and
16 [redacted] itself, was that affected by any shelling?
17 A. Three shells fell there and by accident, it was not shelled.
18 Q. So leaving the area where you had taken refuge on 27th May,
19 about how many other people left at the same time?
20 A. We started from [redacted], perhaps around 100, and as we went
21 towards Kozarac there must have been 200 or 300 people amassed
22 because as we were moving so we were being joined by women and
24 Q. Where were those other people joining you from, where had they
25 been taking refuge?
26 A. I do not know.
27 Q. This movement of people from [redacted], did it form a column
28 which people added to?
1 A. Yes, yes, a column.
2 Q. Whereabouts, as this column approached Kozarac, were you in the
3 column? Were you at the front, the back or in the middle?
4 A. Well, somewhere towards the front of the column.
5 Q. Were people taking any possessions with them?
6 A. Well, some bags perhaps, some clothes, things like that.
7 Q. Was there any transport in the column or were people just
9 A. Walking, on foot. There were no vehicles.
10 Q. Again, were there different nationalities in this column?
11 A. Yes, yes, there were.
12 Q. What nationalities were they?
13 A. There were Muslims, Croats and there were Serbs.
14 Q. What Serb people did you know in the column?
15 A. Well, I knew them. There was my neighbour, [redacted], her
16 mother, [redacted] and others. [redacted]
18 Q. When did you first see any military personnel in the Kozarac
19 area as you moved in this column from [redacted]?
20 A. Well, I saw at the entrance to Kozarac by the Mutnik Mosque
21 there were soldiers there, about two kilometres from [redacted].
22 Q. Can you recollect how many there were there?
23 A. I did not see very many of them, perhaps 20 or 30. They were
24 standing on the pavement.
25 Q. What type of soldiers were they? Were they regular army or
26 irregular troops?
27 A. That was the Yugoslav Army. I did not see any paramilitary
1 Q. Can you recollect how those troops were dressed?
2 A. There were all sorts of uniforms. Some were in camouflage
3 uniforms. Others were in those old SMB uniforms.
4 Q. When you saw those soldiers near Mutnik, how did they, as you
5 were able to see it, treat the people coming down in the column?
6 A. They behaved decently. They did not harass us, nobody beat us,
7 nobody touched us.
8 Q. Having arrived at Mutnik Mosque, whereabouts did your column go
9 in Kozarac? What route did it take?
10 A. We went down the Marsala Tita Street, the High Street, towards
11 the school.
12 Q. Which school is that in Kozarac?
13 A. Elementary school, Rade Kondic.
14 Q. Whereabouts is that in relation to the layout of Kozarac, the
16 A. Well, that is at the bottom, at the end of the street, as you
17 come out of Kozarac, at the very end, at the intersection for
18 the old route to Prijedor and Kamicani, the old road to Banja
19 Luka, at the crossroads itself.
20 Q. I would like you to look at a photograph and this I will offer
21 to the Court as D55, your Honour.
22 Witness, that is a photograph there, or a series of
23 photographs, that have been put together and do you recognise
24 what that photograph is showing?
25 A. Yes, I can see. It is the Marsala Tita Street. You can see the
26 school. You can see the fountain. You can see the house of
27 Bosko Dragicevic and his shop.
28 MR. KAY: Your Honour, this has been served on the Prosecution in
1 advance. It is something that is unsuitable to put on the
2 monitor because of its size. There is a copy for each of your
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?
5 MR. KEEGAN: No objection, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence Exhibit 55 will be admitted. Mr. Kay,
7 I do not have my microphone on. I want to ask you about a
8 reference to a neighbour. Is there a redaction needed?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, microphone, please.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not have my microphone on since the
11 Defence is dealing with this procedure. I am just enquiring.
12 MR. KAY: I do not think there is in relation to that name.
13 Mr. Wladimiroff will confirm that.
14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have made notes and afterwards I think I will
15 pass it because otherwise we will break each time again.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have a half hour, you know, to handle that.
17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, I know. So far, nothing has happened that we
18 are really worried.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good.
20 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence Exhibit 55 is admitted.
22 MR. KAY [To the witness]: I think you have just told us that that
23 is the photograph of the part of Kozarac where the school is,
24 the Rade Kondic school, is that right?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And the fountain in the middle and you refer to someone's shop
27 and house?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. You told us that your column came down into this part of
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where exactly did it go, having arrived down here?
5 A. We went towards the Banja Luka/Prijedor road or the intersection
6 on that road.
7 Q. Is that the new highway, as it is called?
8 A. Yes, Prijedor/Banja Luka.
9 Q. At this stage are you able to tell us how long this column of
10 people in which you were placed stretched? How long it was or
11 the number of people in that column?
12 A. According to my assessment, between 2 and a half and 3,000 men,
13 women and children moving along the road.
14 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can you just tell us in which direction in this
15 photograph is the Banja Luka/Prijedor road?
16 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I certainly will. If we look at the
17 photograph, witness, and we look at the left-hand side where you
18 refer to someone's shop and house ----
19 A. [Answer not translated].
20 Q. Yes, if we pass down that road, would that ----
21 A. My neighbour, Bosko Dragicevic.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We did not get the translation. I think the
23 concern is were they moving from left to right, in other words,
24 does the photo show the beginning and then going down, right to
26 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I will take it in stages and it is my mistake.
27 If we look at this photograph, witness, on the
28 right-hand side of the photograph we see behind some trees a
1 building, the right-hand side?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that the school, Rade Kondic school, in Kozarac?
4 A. No, the school is there. You can just see the monument in front
5 of the school next to the fountain.
6 Q. Yes. Perhaps if you could take us on this photograph then from
7 the right-hand side -- no, the right-hand side, perhaps move
8 your finger to the right-hand side of the photograph, yes, right
9 to the end of the photograph, please. Yes. That is the left,
10 to the other end of the photograph.
11 A. Here.
12 Q. Yes, thank you. If you look at the right-hand side of the
13 photograph and just tell us along this photograph, as we look at
14 it in sections, what parts of Kozarac are shown on the
15 photograph? Starting at the right-hand side, yes, there. What
16 building is behind those trees?
17 A. You can see some buildings. I think that is the old hospital
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Then up here, I think is the cake shop, and then Toma Dobric's
21 house, then the fountain, then the monument in front of the
22 school, of Rade Kondic school, and then the house of Bosko
23 Dragicevic and his shop can be seen on the ground floor.
24 Q. If we look at this photograph, which side of the photograph,
25 right or left, would it be that Marsala Tita Street comes down
26 into the triangle?
27 A. Here on the left.
28 Q. If we look at that, the middle of the photograph, looking across
1 the triangle, we see a road, can you see that?
2 A. That is the one here, to the right.
3 Q. Yes.
4 JUDGE VOHRAH: Is it not possible at all to have it on the Elmo? We
5 are having difficulty.
6 MR. KAY: We will try that. I understand, your Honour. Perhaps if
7 we could switch the Elmo on and the witness take a position
8 closer to the Elmo as, unfortunately, it is difficult to do.
9 Just leave the photograph there for the moment. Put
10 the pointer at the edge of the photograph on the right, there.
11 Is it right that there is a road that leads down into this area
12 of Kozarac from the right there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Which street is that that comes down from the right?
15 A. It is a bit unclear to me. I think it is the road leading to
16 Kalate, to the bridge.
17 MR. KAY: I think I will abandon this exercise, your Honour!
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We can come back to it, perhaps, after the
20 MR. KAY: I thought the witness had familiarised himself with the
21 photographs, but it does not matter. There we are.
22 If you switch the monitor off and let us go back to
23 the map, D13?
24 You have the map there in front of you, witness. We
25 have looked at [redacted]. You have the map in front of you and
26 we have looked at [redacted]. Can you see Mutnik on the map?
27 A. Yes, I can see it.
28 Q. If you can keep your finger on the map so it keeps still? Can
1 you just indicate by using that pointer the route that you took
2 from [redacted] down into the centre of Kozarac?
3 A. I went from [redacted] along this way, along Marsala Tita Road.
4 Q. Just stop there for a moment. Where you have kept your pointer
5 there, we can see a triangle on the map, is that right?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Those photographs that I just showed you, were they of that
8 place on the map, the triangle?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Yes. Just so that we have this in mind, about what time did you
11 arrive at this part of Kozarac, where the triangle is?
12 A. Somewhere around 8.15 or 8.30 in the morning.
13 Q. You told us about troops. You can take your pointer off the
14 triangle for the moment and I will deal with some other
15 matters. You told us about some troops that you had seen near
16 Mutnik. Did you see any other troops or military as you went
17 down Marsala Tita Street?
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. When you arrived at the triangle, did you see any military
20 presence there?
21 A. Yes, there was the army.
22 Q. What sort of military was there there? What sort of equipment
23 and men?
24 A. I saw people in uniform, camouflage uniform and in Yugoslav SMB
25 uniforms. They had automatic rifles.
26 Q. Did you see stay for any time down there at the triangle?
27 A. Yes, we stayed there for about one and a half or two hours
28 waiting for other people to join the column.
1 Q. At this stage are you able to tell us about how many people were
2 in this part of Kozarac in the triangle?
3 A. There were about 2 and a half to 3,000 people, men, women,
4 children, old people.
5 Q. How were you being controlled?
6 A. They did not control us. We were just waiting there so that we
7 could all gather together, that people from other villages could
9 Q. Was anyone giving orders to you?
10 A. Yes, there was an officer whom I do not know and we listened to
11 what he said.
12 Q. Had you recognised anyone at all within the military during your
13 progress down from [redacted] down to the triangle in Kozarac?
14 A. Yes, I did. I recognised two boys.
15 Q. Who did you recognise?
16 A. I recognised Goran Borovnica and Zoran Sumar from Donji Orlovci,
17 a neighbour of my wife's.
18 Q. In your movement through Kozarac, had you seen Dusko Tadic?
19 A. No, no, I did not see him.
20 Q. As you had passed through Kozarac, were you able to see what
21 damage had been done to the town caused by the shelling?
22 A. Yes, I was in a position to see it.
23 Q. Can you remember what that was, what the town looked like then?
24 A. It was not badly damaged. A couple of houses were just damaged.
25 Q. If we see photographs of Kozarac today, we see virtually every
26 house with holes for windows, no roof and enormous damage to the
27 buildings. Were the buildings like that then or did that happen
1 A. That happened later.
2 Q. At the triangle, you told us that there were this large number
3 of people. Did there come a time when you moved from there and
4 the convoy started off to go elsewhere?
5 A. No, the column stayed there for about one and a half to two
6 hours and then we moved towards the crossroads, Banja
8 Q. Right. If we return then back to our map, and again if the
9 overhead projector could be switched on? Put your pointer back
10 on the triangle and show us then the route that you took to the
11 intersection of the Banja Luka/Prijedor highway.
12 A. [The witness indicated on the model].
13 Q. Thank you. Does that route take you past the saw mill?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Then having got to the intersection, where did you go?
16 A. We went in the direction of Prijedor.
17 Q. If you can just move your pointer along that so we can see on
18 the map which particular road that is? Yes, if you just move it
19 along the Prijedor highway? Thank you.
20 A. [The witness indicated on the model].
21 Q. Thank you very much. Having then moved along the Prijedor
22 highway, did there come a time when the column stopped?
23 A. Yes, we were stopped at Susici.
24 Q. What happened at Susici when the column stopped?
25 A. We were attacked from the trees. Muslims shot at the column of
26 civilians from the woods.
27 Q. Which part of Susici did the column stop at?
28 A. Near the bus stop, just in front of the bridge, about 50 metres
1 away from the bridge.
2 Q. Did the column eventually move from there?
3 A. Yes, when this attack waned, we went on to towards Ziko's inn in
5 Q. About what time did you reach Ziko's inn in Kozarusa?
6 A. About 1 o'clock, 1.30. I cannot remember exactly.
7 Q. What happened there at Ziko's?
8 A. There were buses waiting for transport of civilians.
9 Q. What happened to you?
10 A. Nothing. I got on the bus. I did not know where I was going.
11 Q. Did you have to wait for any period of time at Ziko's before you
12 were put on the bus?
13 A. Yes, we waited maybe half an hour.
14 Q. So about what time was it that your bus left Ziko's?
15 A. I think it must have been about 2.30.
16 Q. Again, had more people joined that column, do you know, since it
17 had left the triangle in Kozarac and moved along the highway
18 towards Prijedor?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. You had moved in this column of people starting at [redacted]
21 down to this place, Ziko's tavern. Were the people within that
22 column frightened?
23 A. Yes, they were frightened.
24 Q. Did people know what was going to happen to them?
25 A. I think they did not know what was going to happen. I did not
27 Q. When you were put on the bus, did you know where you were going
28 to be taken to?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Where did that bus take you? Where did you end up?
3 A. Trnopolje, the collection point at Trnopolje.
4 Q. Your wife and other members of your family had been with you in
5 your house [redacted] when the shelling started. Had you
6 remained together as a group?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you all go as a group to Trnopolje or were you split up and
9 others taken to other places?
10 A. We all went Trnopolje, and then from Trnopolje we went to
11 Prijedor to stay with family.
12 Q. How long were you at Trnopolje camp for?
13 A. Maybe two or three hours I stayed there -- three hours.
14 Q. You said that you then stayed elsewhere, having been in
15 Trnopolje for that period of time. Whereabouts did you go and
17 A. I went to Donji Orlovci [redacted].
18 Q. At any stage during your movement and progress from [redacted] to
19 this time when you are in Trnopolje, did you see Dusko Tadic?
20 A. No, no, I did not see him.
21 Q. You mentioned seeing two young men in Kozarac whom you
22 recognised, Zoran Sumar and Goran Borovnica. Can you recollect
23 whereabouts in Kozarac you had seen either of them? First of
24 all, Sumar, can you recollect where you saw him?
25 A. I first saw Goran near the old school in Kozarac, that is, just
26 below the Mutnik Mosque and then I saw Zoran about 50 metres
27 later on the left-hand side at an intersection of roads.
28 Q. Which intersection of roads is that in Kozarac?
1 A. It is the road leading to Kula.
2 Q. If we can just have a look at Prosecution Exhibit which is
3 Exhibit 196? It may show up better on this plan that I am going
4 to put in front of you which is not a map in the same form that
5 we have been looking at, witness, but is a plan that someone has
6 drawn of Kozarac. (Handed). If we can have one put on the
7 monitor as well so that it can be shown? You can see there the
8 plan of Kozarac and can you see on the top right corner where
9 the motel is marked? If you just put your pointer where that
12 A. [redacted]
13 Q. Can you see where the mosque is, that is Mutnik Mosque, down
15 A. I think it must be this.
16 Q. When you indicated seeing Goran Borovnica near the school and
17 near that area, can you indicate where that would be on this
19 A. [The witness indicated on the plan] Here somewhere, about here.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will continue until quarter to 12, Mr. Kay.
22 MR. KAY: I am obliged, your Honour.
23 (To the witness): When you left Trnopolje and went to
24 live in Donji Orlovci, did you move out of the area at all of
25 Donji Orlovci? Were you able to travel around?
26 A. Yes, I went to Prijedor. I did move around.
27 Q. After the conflict, can you remember the first time you met
28 Dusko Tadic?
1 A. Before the conflict or after the conflict broke out? I did not
2 understand the question.
3 Q. After the conflict, can you remember the first time you met
4 Dusko Tadic?
5 A. Maybe about one and a half or two months. I cannot exactly
6 remember the date. It was about one and a half or two months
8 Q. Whereabouts was that?
9 A. We met in Prijedor in front of the Rudnik restaurant.
10 Q. Was that a meeting by accident or an arranged meeting?
11 A. No, by accident we met. It was a coincidence.
12 Q. Did you talk to him?
13 A. Yes, we had a drink and we talked about Kozarac and ----
14 Q. Did you talk with him about the future of Kozarac?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you make any plans with him about the future for Kozarac?
17 A. Yes, we spoke about returning to Kozarac, about living there and
18 building it up.
19 Q. Had anyone started to rebuild Kozarac, as far as you know, at
20 this time?
21 A. No.
22 Q. The discussion you had with him, was it a discussion as to what
23 you were going to do, how you were going to rebuild Kozarac, or
24 was it just dreams of rebuilding Kozarac?
25 A. We spoke about Kozarac and two or three days later we went to
26 the President of the Prijedor opstina to come to an agreement on
27 the return to Kozarac and on clearing it up.
28 Q. Did you go back to Kozarac yourself?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When was your first return?
3 A. I do not know. I think in the elementary school of Kozarac we
4 had a meeting with the President of the opstina and all the
5 citizens who had stayed behind in Kozarac. Whether it was the
6 end of August or the beginning of September, I cannot remember
8 Q. Was Dusko Tadic involved in that meeting?
9 A. Yes, he was there.
10 Q. What was his role?
11 A. He was elected at the meeting as Secretary of the local
12 community of Kozarac.
13 Q. Why was he elected as Secretary of the Local Commune?
14 A. Because he was the greatest supporter of returning to Kozarac,
15 of bringing it back to life, of us continuing life there.
16 Q. Who was the President of the Local Commune?
17 A. I am afraid I cannot -- I do not know.
18 Q. Had Dusko Tadic been involved in SDS politics, as far as you
19 were aware?
20 A. I do not know. I am not aware of it.
21 Q. Was his appointment as Secretary of the Local Commune in Kozarac
22 in any way to do because of political views or his political
23 knowledge or his political associations?
24 A. No, I think it was the people of Kozarac, the inhabitants of
25 Kozarac, who elected him because he was the man who most
26 championed our return to Kozarac.
27 Q. Was he made Secretary of the Local Commune because he had been
28 involved in fighting in Kozarac and because he had been involved
1 in activities involving the camps in opstina Prijedor? Was that
2 anything to do with his election?
3 A. As far as I know, he was the greatest supporter of returning to
4 Kozarac and living there and that is why the people elected
5 him. I know nothing about these other things.
6 Q. Did you eventually return to Kozarac yourself to live?
7 A. Yes, I and my wife, we returned.
8 Q. When was that?
9 A. About September we cleaned up our houses. Towards the end of
10 September already we started living there, end of September,
11 beginning of October.
12 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic in Kozarac during this time, from the
13 time of that meeting you referred to to the time afterwards?
14 A. Yes, I would see him in Kozarac, in the Local Commune premises.
15 We were cleaning up our homes and I would see him.
16 Q. How did he spend his time?
17 A. Mostly he was in the school working in the Local Commune and
18 assisting the people with their work. He would take people to
19 their houses and accommodate them there.
20 Q. There has been an assertion in evidence in this Court that later
21 on in the year, in November/December 1992, he was Commander of
22 Trnopolje camp. Could you see that? Were you aware of that?
23 A. No. No, I neither knew about it nor did I hear anything like
25 Q. I mean, did any of his business, as you could see it, cause his
26 involvement with Trnopolje camp?
27 A. As far as I know, it did not, as far as I know.
28 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that would be an appropriate moment. I am
1 grateful for the Court allowing me to continue.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.
3 (11.43 a.m.)
1 (The Court adjourned for a short time)
2 (12.08 p.m.)
3 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I have concluded my questioning.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Keegan?
5 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We thought, perhaps, Mr. Kay, that the witness
7 (as we have followed in other procedures) can identify that he
8 is the person, without revealing his name, of course, that he
9 purports to be. We forgot to do that. You tell me how you
10 would like to handle that.
11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I think it may be appropriate if we, perhaps,
12 did it on a piece of paper.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is how we have done it in the past. We
14 have put a piece of paper in front of the witness and then
15 confirmed that he is that person.
16 MR. KAY: Mr. Wladimiroff, attentive as ever, has already ----
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He is one step ahead of me, just waiting for
18 me, just in case, Mr. Wladimiroff, OK.
19 MR. KAY: Witness, could you confirm that that is your name?
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Without saying your name.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, it is.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then you will show that to the Prosecutor,
23 please. (Handed).
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan?
25 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour.
26 Cross-examined by MR. KEEGAN
27 Q. I would also like to start with a piece of paper. Witness U, if
28 you would, I would like to pass you a piece of paper with two
1 names on it and I would like you to indicate whether that is the
2 names of your wife and your son. I believe this will be
3 Prosecution Exhibit 347, your Honour. If that could be shown to
4 the Defence first, please?
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You can take a look at it. We have not been
6 offering the papers into evidence. If it does come into
7 evidence, of course, it would have to be sealed. Do you have
8 any objection?
9 MR. KAY: There would be no objection to that, your Honour.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 347 will be admitted.
12 MR. KEEGAN: Witness U, you testified that the shelling went on for
13 approximately three days in Kozarac?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That on that third day you then left with a column of people
16 from the area of [redacted] and headed into Kozarac?
17 A. On the fourth day, May 27th.
18 Q. You indicated that when you went through you noted that the
19 houses were not damaged very much, that the damage which is
20 obvious in that town today was caused at some later time. Is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You also testified that as you were moving through this column
24 there was no one controlling you, none of the soldiers were
25 controlling the column, but you indicated you were given some
26 orders by an officer at the triangle. What were those orders?
27 A. The orders were in what direction to move in the column and how
28 to move, that is, not to leave the column and to go altogether.
1 Q. What was the purpose of the column? What were you told?
2 A. I did not understand your question.
3 Q. Why were people forming a column and leaving the town? What was
4 the purpose of the column?
5 A. For safety sake, people were going to that collection centre, to
6 a safe place.
7 Q. You testified that the houses, the buildings themselves, were
8 not being destroyed by the shelling. So what was the safety
9 concern? Why did people not simply return to their homes if
10 they were not being destroyed?
11 A. Well, the shelling, most houses that were damaged were towards
12 the Prijedor/Banja Luka road. That is where most shells fell.
13 Q. Fine, and so in those areas that were away from the Banja
14 Luka/Prijedor road, why would those people have been compelled
15 to leave their homes?
16 A. Well, everybody was leaving and we had to leave.
17 Q. When did this damage to all of these homes take place, this
18 subsequent damage? When did that occur?
19 A. I do not know. I was not in Kozarac.
20 Q. You testified earlier you returned to Kozarac?
21 A. I returned, I returned in August, early September.
22 Q. At the time that you returned to Kozarac, had all the damage
23 been done?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When you were in this column you indicated that you saw Goran
26 Borovnica near the old school?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. In fact, is it not correct that when you saw Borovnica, you left
1 the column, went over to Goran Borovnica, greeted him, shook his
2 hand and had a conversation with him?
3 A. He came up to the column and shook hands with me.
4 Q. So he approached you, you did not approach him?
5 A. Yes, yes, he was the one who approached me.
6 Q. What kind of conversation did you have when he came up to the
7 column and greeted you?
8 A. Well, he asked me if my family was alive, where was my son, was
9 he safe, whether my wife was with me and who was left behind in
10 the village, some elderly women and people like that.
11 Q. Did you ask him why they were shelling the area around your
13 A. No.
14 Q. What about these other JNA soldiers that you said you saw, did
15 you ask any of them what the purpose of the shelling was?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did any of them tell you what the purpose of the shelling was?
18 A. No, they did not.
19 Q. You said that when the column moved out on to the Banja
20 Luka/Prijedor highway and headed towards Prijedor, there was an
21 ambush, an attack, in which the column was fired on. You said
22 that you were fired on by Muslims who fired on you from the
23 trees. If these people were in the trees, how did you know they
24 were Muslims who were doing the firing?
25 A. Well, because the Serbs soldiers who were escorting us, our
26 column, were responding to the attack and we simply all went
27 into ditches waiting for it.
28 Q. So how many Serb soldiers were with this column?
1 A. Well, the column was quite long. There could have been some 30
2 or 40 soldiers escorting the column.
3 Q. How many people were wounded in this attack?
4 A. Civilians, you mean?
5 Q. Anyone -- how many people in total were wounded?
6 A. Nobody was wounded there.
7 Q. Could we have Exhibit 280 shown to the witness, please? It
8 might speed things up, your Honour, I have a copy of it here.
9 (Handed). If that could be placed on the Elmo, please? If you
10 could zoom into the area that you see marked on there,
11 Mr. Usher, Kozarusa and Kozarac, if you could use the Elmo zoom
12 to move in? Witness U, if you could, please, indicate to us on
13 that map where approximately this ambush occurred?
14 A. [The witness indicated on the plan]. It was here, about a
15 kilometre, a kilometre, 500 metres towards Kozarusa at Susici.
16 Q. What side of the road did the firing come from?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. If you were heading towards Prijedor, OK?
19 A. Towards Prijedor, yes, on the right side.
20 Q. On the right side. So it would be between what is marked there
21 as that red road, just above the word "Kozarusa" and where that
22 yellow road is above it, the old Banja Luka/Prijedor road?
23 A. At Susici there was the bus stop, Susici, that is the place.
24 Q. Yes. So the firing was on that side of the road where the old
25 Banja Luka/Prijedor road is as well, as you can see it on that
27 A. Yes, yes.
28 Q. You have indicated that these forces were in the trees. How far
1 away were they from the column?
2 A. Well, about 100 metres, 150.
3 Q. Approximately, how many forces were there that attacked the
5 A. I do not know. I do not know. All we heard were shots and
6 bullets falling on the asphalt.
7 Q. Did the bullets fall in the part of the column that you were
8 actually in or in a different part of the column?
9 A. We hid in a ditch. There was a deep ditch and that is where we
10 hid and bullets flew over us to the other side.
11 Q. You just said that the bullets were hitting the road, so were
12 they hitting the road in the area where you were, where you had
13 just left, or did they hit in a different area of the column?
14 A. There in the column where I was and other -- and others.
15 Q. So how could you tell where the firing was coming from if you
16 were down in the ditch?
17 A. Well, from the right-hand side because the army, the soldiers,
18 went there and rejected the attack.
19 Q. How many soldiers were there that went and rejected this attack?
20 A. I do not know. About 20 or 30 soldiers went to the right
21 towards those woods, towards those ponds. It lasted for about
22 10 minutes and then we started off again.
23 Q. Did you hear any artillery firing in response to this attack or
24 any tank fire in response to this attack?
25 A. No.
26 Q. So in this attack of a column of civilians, no one was injured
27 and the Serb forces who had all of that military equipment at
28 their disposal responded only by a few of the men who were
1 escorting the column, is that correct?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. You said that when you went to Trnopolje you were only there for
4 two or three hours, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In fact, you were taken out by [redacted] a policeman,
7 is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You then said that you went to Prijedor and then on to Donji
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How long did you stay in Donji Orlovci?
13 A. About four months.
14 Q. Until you returned to Kozarac in August?
15 A. Yes, September, rather, it was the end of September when
16 I returned to Kozarac.
17 Q. You said that during that time you travelled to Prijedor,
18 correct, the time you lived in Donji Orlovci?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How did you get to Prijedor from Donji Orlovci?
21 A. By road, I walked on foot.
22 Q. How often did you go to Prijedor?
23 A. Two or three times a week. I went to report to my company.
24 Q. What company was that?
25 A. Sorry, I did not understand this.
26 Q. Which company were you reporting to?
27 A. [redacted]
28 Q. [redacted]
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you were still being paid?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What route would you take to get to Prijedor from Donji Orlovci?
5 A. Donji Orlovci, Orlovaca, Prijedor. There is an asphalt road
7 Q. If we could look at that map again, please, on the monitor? If
8 you could point out that map, that route, please?
9 A. [The witness indicated on the model].
10 Q. The area where you are pointing right now? Then you would
11 follow that road which is a yellow road on the map? Yes, thank
13 A. This would be this route to Trnopolje, Donji Orlovci, Prijedor.
14 Q. Yes, thank you. When you went to that meeting in Kozarac you
15 said that the meeting which you attended with Dusko Tadic, it
16 was also attended by the President of the opstina of Prijedor.
17 Who was that?
18 A. I believe it was Milomir Stakic who was the Mayor.
19 Q. At this meeting where Dusko Tadic was elected as Secretary of
20 the Local Commune, who attended this meeting? Who was present?
21 A. The local people from Kozarac, from Podgradje, Babici, and from
22 Kozarac, the people from Kozarac, the people who were there from
24 Q. Which people were those? Do you remember their names?
25 A. Yes, I remember, Bosko Dragicevic, Dane Basaraba, Gojko Baltic,
26 all of them were there. Drago, Coprka, Bosko Dragicevic.
27 Q. Those names you have just mentioned, they were all Serbs?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. In fact, the majority of the people at that meeting were Serbs?
2 A. Yes, Serbs, but there were also two or three Croat families.
3 Q. [redacted]
4 A. [redacted]
5 Q. Who arranged this meeting with the President of the opstina,
6 Milomir Stakic?
7 A. I think it was Dusko Tadic, Bosko Dragicevic, Dane Basaraba.
8 Q. Is that because they were all members of the local SDS Council?
9 A. I do not know about that. I am not familiar with that.
10 Q. You live in Kozarac now, correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The majority of the residents in Kozarac now are Serbs,
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. [redacted]
18 A. [redacted]
19 Q. During this time, after August/September '92, while you were
20 attempting to develop plans to rebuild Kozarac, did you visit
21 with and meet with Dusko Tadic in his coffee bar?
22 A. No, because the coffee bar was not working after the attack and
23 after the war.
24 Q. Where did you meet him then?
25 A. We would meet in the school, in the office of the Local Commune,
26 in the street.
27 Q. Where was Dusko Tadic living at that time?
28 A. He was living at the time in Kozarac. He was sleeping in the
1 school, in the Local Commune when the meetings were being held,
2 when we were discussing the return to Kozarac.
3 Q. Where were you living?
4 A. I was living in Kozarac.
5 Q. Where in Kozarac -- in your own house?
6 A. No.
7 Q. In whose house?
8 A. In the house of a Muslim.
9 Q. Prior to the war -- what about the Muslim who had previously
10 owned that house, do you know where he was?
11 A. Before the war?
12 Q. No, while you were living in that person's home, do you know
13 where that person was?
14 A. In Prijedor, the daughter of the owner was living in Prijedor.
15 Q. Why were they not living in their own home in Kozarac?
16 A. Because she got killed during the operations.
17 Q. Prior to the war you were a member of the Kozarac TO?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were you a member of any Defence organisation in the area of
21 A. No.
22 Q. You indicated that your son was not at home when Kozarac was
23 shelled when the attack started. Is that because two to three
24 weeks prior to the war he, in fact, joined Serb military forces?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Your son had not joined the military?
27 A. At the time, no.
28 Q. When did he join?
1 A. On July 2nd 1992.
2 Q. [redacted]
5 A. [redacted]
6 Q. [redacted]
8 A. [redacted]
9 Q. [redacted]
11 A. [redacted]
12 Q. [redacted]
15 A. [redacted]
16 Q. As a consequence, you owed a lot of people money before the war,
17 is that not correct?
18 A. Not many people.
19 Q. Prior to the attack, a number of those people were always
20 looking for you in order to get their money back, to be repaid,
21 is that not correct?
22 A. No, it is not correct.
23 Q. Is it not true that you saw this war and, more importantly,
24 being on the right side of this war as an opportunity to cancel
25 all of your debts?
26 A. I never thought about it like that.
27 Q. In fact, your thoughts went beyond that. Is it not correct that
28 you and your wife then looted and stole [redacted]
1 [redacted] including, for example, the property of Dzemal
3 A. No.
4 Q. Is it not true that your wife routinely accompanied the Serb
5 forces around Prijedor to loot property and, in fact, her
6 particular role was to search any women who were found in the
8 A. No.
9 MR. KEEGAN: Nothing further, your Honour.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
11 Re-examined by MR. KAY
12 Q. A few matters in re-examination: you have just been asked
13 questions about what you have described as the ambush on the
14 column as it was on the Banja Luka/Prijedor highway. Did you
15 actually see who was firing at the column? Did you see any of
16 the people who were firing in your direction?
17 A. No, I could not see anyone.
18 Q. You referred to them as being in the trees, but did you actually
19 know they were in the trees because that was something you were
20 able to see or were you told that?
21 A. We were told that the Muslims had attacked the column of
23 Q. The people who told you this, were who?
24 A. Soldiers.
25 Q. At about what time did this attack take place when you were on
26 the highway?
27 A. I do not know exactly, but about 11.30 or 12 o'clock.
28 Q. When the soldiers left to deal with the problem, as you told us,
1 did any soldiers remain guarding you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you jumped into the ditch, was that as a result of an order
4 from the soldiers or because there was firing towards the
6 A. The soldiers told us to lie down so that nobody would get
8 Q. So had the firing happened before you lay down and attempted to
9 conceal yourself?
10 A. No, while we were still in the column the firing started and
11 then the order came to lie down in the trenches, in the ditch.
12 Q. Did you see in which direction the soldiers went when you
13 describe 20 or 30 of them moving away to the right-hand side of
14 the road? Did you see where exactly they went?
15 A. They went in the direction of a thicket behind the column,
16 behind us.
17 Q. Was there any firing of weapons by those soldiers?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were you able to tell whether firing was being returned in any
20 way towards the soldiers?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were the soldiers taking, from what you could see, evasive
23 action? Were they trying to conceal themselves whilst they were
24 going towards this thicket?
25 A. The Serb soldiers went and repulsed the attack and then they
26 came back about 10 minutes later and joined the column.
27 Q. Thank you. You were also asked about Kozarac and meetings of
28 the Council. You were asked whether the coffee bar was a place
1 which Dule Tadic owned, whether that was used for meetings. You
2 said that it was not working. What had happened to Dusko
3 Tadic's coffee bar? How was it at this time in August or
4 September 1992?
5 A. It was all broken up, demolished.
6 Q. Was it a place that could be made to work as a coffee bar or was
7 the damage too great at this time?
8 A. The damage was too great. The windows were broken, the bar, the
9 water pipes. It required a great deal of investment to be
11 Q. You were also asked about the people who attended these meetings
12 at this time. You said that a man called Stakic who was from
13 Prijedor attended the first meeting. Did he attend other
14 meetings of the Local Commune or was it just the first one?
15 A. I do not know about the other meetings because I was not there
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. KAY: That is all I ask in re-examination. Does your Honour have
19 any questions?
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan?
21 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour, briefly.
22 Further cross-examined by MR. KEEGAN
23 Q. You indicated that the coffee bar was damaged during the attack
24 and that the comment was made it would require a great deal of
25 investment to fix it up, correct?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. In fact that coffee bar is now open and in fact it is one of the
28 few businesses that is open in Kozarac, is that not also true?
1 A. Dusko Tadic's coffee bar is not working.
2 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
4 MR. KAY: Yes.
5 Re-Examined by MR. KAY.
6 Q. Is it the case that the former site of the Nipon cafe bar at the
7 Tadic family home is, in fact, still closed?
8 A. The coffee bar of Dusko Tadic is closed.
9 Q. Yes. Is there a bar now open at the family home that is in fact
10 the other side of the building in a different position to the
11 place where Dusko Tadic's cafe was previously positioned in the
13 A. Dusko's brother Mladen Tadic has opened a coffee bar in the same
14 family home but on another side.
15 Q. Is that on the other side of the house?
16 A. It is in the same house. There is Dusko Tadic, then his brother
17 Ljubo and then Mladen Tadic, and there are business premises one
18 next to the other.
19 Q. And that is a new bar that has been opened by his brother
20 Mladen, is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask, your Honour.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan?
24 MR. KEEGAN: No, your Honour.
25 Examined by the Court.
26 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, I had two or three questions to ask you.
27 They all relate to the column and your movement down Marsala
28 Tita Street. First of all, do I understand that you were moving
1 with your wife, she was with you all the time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And any other members of your family?
4 A. My uncle, his wife, my brother, his wife and other neighbours.
5 Q. When you moved down through the town, did you hear any shooting?
6 A. Yes, I heard shooting above Kozarac, Brdjani, Arifagici, Besici,
7 two or three kilometres from Kozarac.
8 Q. But you heard no shooting just close to the column?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you hear or see anyone called out from the column, any of
11 the people who were moving in the column being told to leave the
13 A. No, I did not see that.
14 Q. You did not see any soldiers or anyone else pulling people out
15 of the column?
16 A. The column was long. It was a big one. I did not see anyone
17 doing that.
18 Q. Then when you got to the buses you had to wait for some time
19 before you got on to a bus and then before the bus moved off to
20 Trnopolje. That is right, is it not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you see any process of separation of men from women at that
24 A. Women were separated before, before Kozarusa, the women were
25 separated from the men.
26 Q. At what stage did that take place?
27 A. Immediately after this ambush, about 10 minutes later, the women
28 were separated from the men and taken away by buses.
1 Q. And that means that your wife was taken away from you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did she end up at Trnopolje where you were for some three or
4 four hours?
5 A. Yes, she arrived first at Trnopolje.
6 Q. You joined her there?
7 A. No, by the time I got there she had already left to stay with
8 [redacted] in Donji Orlovci.
9 Q. I see, and you followed on then, did you, from Trnopolje?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.
12 JUDGE VOHRAH: Witness, could you tell us how many of the people in
13 the column walking down Marsala Tita Street were Serbs and
15 A. A few were Serbs and Croats. The majority were Muslims.
16 Q. Did they represent a significant number of the population of
17 Serbs and Croatians in Kozarac?
18 A. No, the majority population of Kozarac were Muslims.
19 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Where did the Serbs go, if you know, before this
21 march began?
22 A. I do not know.
23 Q. Were they in town? Were they in Kozarac, as best as you can
25 A. As far as I know, they were not in Kozarac on May 27th when
26 I left.
27 Q. You do not know where they went?
28 A. No.
1 Q. They just left Kozarac?
2 A. No, some -- I do not know.
3 Q. Do you know when the Serbs left Kozarac?
4 A. I do not know.
5 Q. When you boarded the buses, Judge Stephen was asking you some
6 questions about the separating of men and women before you got
7 to that point, or you said it happened before you got to that
8 point. When you boarded the buses did you see Goran Borovnica?
9 A. No, I did not see him.
10 Q. You testified that as you were coming down the column when you
11 were in Kozarac there were Yugoslav soldiers controlling the
12 column, is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that you saw Goran Borovnica and another individual. What
15 was his name, Zoran -- what was his name, sir?
16 A. Zoran Sumar.
17 Q. Were they part of the Yugoslav Army?
18 A. At the time it was the JNA, the Yugoslav Army. Later on it was
19 transformed into the army of the Republika Srspka.
20 Q. Well, how would you characterise the army then when they were
21 escorting the column? What would you call them: JNA, Yugoslav
22 Army, Republika Srpska?
23 A. I would rather call them the Army of the Republika Srspka.
24 Q. Goran Borovnica and Zoran Sumar, the other gentleman, were they
25 part of the Republic Srpske's army?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Did you see any individuals then who were not part of the army
28 as you were coming down that column?
1 A. No, I only saw soldiers who were before JNA and then they were
2 transformed into the Army of the Republika Srpska.
3 Q. Was Goran Borovnica a part of the forces that were escorting the
5 A. No.
6 Q. What was he doing?
7 A. He was going towards the Mutnik Mosque. He stayed there and we
8 went on.
9 Q. That day did you see anyone as you were coming down the column,
10 other than Goran Borovnica and Zoran, who were not part of the
11 group of soldiers who were escorting the column, if you
12 understand my question?
13 A. I saw soldiers, but I did not know the names of those soldiers.
14 Q. So everyone you saw was a soldier except Goran Borovnica and
16 A. Goran and Zoran were also soldiers.
17 Q. OK. The house that you are living in now, in response to
18 questions I think from Mr. Keegan you said that the woman, the
19 daughter of the family, moved to Prijedor and then at some point
20 you said that she was killed. Were you talking about the same
21 person? Was it the daughter of the family who lived in the
22 house that you are in now? Is it the daughter who was killed?
23 A. No, no.
24 Q. How did you happen to come to live in that house? Did you buy
25 it from someone or how did you happen, you and your family, to
26 come to live in this house?
27 A. I did not buy it. I was given it by the Prijedor opstina.
28 Q. What happened to your house in [redacted]?
1 A. It was destroyed during the operations, war operations.
2 Q. Were many houses destroyed in [redacted]?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. By shells?
5 A. I do not know. After we left on May 27th I did not go back up
6 for four or five months.
7 Q. I thought you testified there was some shelling but very little
8 and it was accidental. That may not have been in [redacted];
9 that may have been somewhere else.
10 A. In [redacted] there was little shelling at the time until May
11 27th. I left and then I did not go back for four or five
13 Q. Then when you went back did you find that there had been
14 significant damage to the homes there?
15 A. Yes, it was destroyed.
16 Q. Most of the homes were destroyed?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you returned to Kozarac in September, I think you said
19 August -- no, you said the end of September of 1992, were there
20 any Muslims living in the town?
21 A. In Kozarac, no.
22 Q. Do you know where they were?
23 A. I do not know.
24 Q. Also you testified that Mr. Tadic was elected secretary to the
25 Local Council, and then at one point one of the lawyers used the
26 word "appointed". So it is not clear to me whether Mr. Tadic
27 was elected or appointed secretary of the Local Council. Was
28 there a vote taken or did someone appoint him to the position?
1 A. We citizens elected him as secretary of the Local Commune.
2 Q. What citizens? Was it a ballot taken for all of the citizens in
3 Kozarac or who was it who was voting?
4 A. The people who had returned to Kozarac and the people from the
5 surrounding villages, Babici, Balte, Yaruga, they were there.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have no further questions. Mr. Kay?
7 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, thank you, your Honour.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan?
9 MR. KEEGAN: Just one your Honour or it may be two.
10 Further Cross-Examined by MR. KEEGAN.
11 Q. What was the name of the person who owned this home that you now
12 live in?
13 A. Santa Nedzod.
14 Q. How was he killed and where?
15 A. I do not know. I did not hear that he was killed nor do I know
16 anything about it.
17 Q. You indicated that the person who had lived in the home had been
18 killed, and you said a woman earlier?
19 A. No. No.
20 Q. Who in the opstina Prijedor gave you this house?
21 A. The Prijedor opstina.
22 Q. Who did you have to go to to get permission to have this house?
23 A. There was a commission.
24 Q. And where was this commission? Did you have to go into Prijedor
25 or did you go through the Local Commune in Kozarac?
26 A. In the Assembly of the Prijedor opstina.
27 Q. Did you yourself go and ask permission for this particular
1 A. No, it went through the Local Commune, and the opstina issued
3 Q. So was that through Dusko Tadic that you went to get this house?
4 A. No, there was a commission with Dusko Tadic.
5 Q. He was a member of that commission as the secretary of the Local
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. KEEGAN: Nothing further, your Honour.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
10 MR. KAY: No thank you, your Honour.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to the witness being
12 permanently excused, Mr. Keegan?
13 MR. KEEGAN: No, your Honour.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Sir, you are permanently excused.
15 That means you are free to leave. Thank you very much for
16 coming. You should keep your seat for a moment and the Judges
17 will leave.
18 We will stand in recess for lunch until 2.35.
19 (1.05 p.m.).
20 (Luncheon Adjournment)
1 (2.35 p.m.)
13 (Pages 5855 to 5911 in Closed Session)
24 (5.30 p.m.).
25 (The court adjourned until the following day).