1 Friday, 20th September 1996.
2 (Hearing in open session)
3 (10.25 a.m.)
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are in open session and we had requested
5 from counsel authorities regarding the issue that was raised
6 yesterday afternoon that had to do with the availability to the
7 Prosecutor for use as impeachment purposes a prior statement of
8 the witness. We asked that counsel provide us authorities and
9 indicated that we would hear oral argument this morning.
10 Mr. Tieger, you were the moving party, I suppose, on that
11 issue. Have you presented us with any authorities?
12 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please ----
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
14 MR. NIEMANN: --- if I might argue that matter on behalf of the
16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: May I raise a question, your Honour?
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
18 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I think, your Honour, that the matter that has been
19 raised by the Prosecution yesterday is a matter that really
20 attacks the conduct of the Defence in its heart, the way we have
21 dealt with our business so far. We are not ready to argue the
22 matter today. It needs more time for us to prepare for a proper
23 argument in this case. It is a case of principle and we do not
24 feel prepared just one overnight looking into the matter,
25 because there are so many consequences we have to deal with that
26 we cannot argue the matter tomorrow.
27 If I may explain that to you? We have to consider
28 several consequences. First of all, we have to research, not
1 only as we did the English system and the Dutch system, we have
2 to research other systems too. I have a very good feeling that
3 what is in the Dutch system will also be in the other
4 continental systems, but I have not been able to have any
5 confirmation on that. Comparative law is not simply reading the
6 text, one should understand it.
7 The second consequence we want to research is that
8 I want to take advice from the advisory panel which is in the
9 directive on the assignment of the counsel, because I am not
10 convinced that a ruling of your Chamber as you did yesterday
11 will be a matter I can deal with. So I want to take advice on
12 my professional duties in this case, what should I do, according
13 to that panel, because we have to consider our position then.
14 We also have to confer with our client. So far we
15 have had no time to see him. We cannot see him in the evening
16 and yesterday afternoon we had been working on this case. We
17 conferred with the Prosecution. I think we should confer with
18 him. It is an essential issue in this case. We should also
19 confer with him to discuss the ins and outs of a possible
20 interlocutory appeal. That would take time too. In the
21 meantime, he is in custody. We further have to consider very
22 carefully the consequences for our witnesses.
23 There is an enormous impact of any decision on your
24 part for a disclosure by the Defence on our future witnesses,
25 and we cannot simply overnight decide these matters.
26 Under these conditions, we feel we need more time, as
27 we are entitled to under Article 21 of the Statute, to prepare
28 for a proper argument. It is not a simple matter. It is really
1 the heart of the matter. If we step over that line, we have to
2 consider our position.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How much time do you need, Mr. Wladimiroff?
4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We need working days. The weekend is for
5 ourselves, we cannot consult others. We would like to argue the
6 matter on Tuesday.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
8 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, in view of the matters raised by
9 Mr. Wladimiroff, we do not oppose his application, but we would
10 also like to take advantage of the time if he is going to have
11 it, so that we will make our presentation at the same time if
12 that was possible.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Tuesday morning at 10 o'clock,
14 Mr. Wladimiroff, is that acceptable with you?
15 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I guess so, yes. I am very careful here because we
16 are dependent on people helping us out, providing with what is
17 in the other system. On Monday, I think, we are able to tell
18 you whether we have been able to do this, if not we will tell
19 you. But we think it is a very essential issue we cannot rush.
20 The advisory panel are three persons. They live in separate
21 countries, so I will try to contact them as quick as I can, but
22 they may confer with each other too because we should really
23 take advice here.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You probably intend on submitting written
25 materials, I am sure?
26 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, we have translation problems.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will schedule it for Tuesday at 10.00. Will
28 you know Monday? I am really concerned about your witnesses.
1 We are in the middle of one witness now whom we are hearing in
2 closed session. Of course, this issue relates to that witness.
3 If we are going to reserve arguments and reserve a ruling, then
4 that witness will have to continue. That witness will have to
5 be available for continuing cross-examination. We, I imagine,
6 will finish with that witness, although I am not involved, maybe
7 before lunch, certainly by lunch. Then we will go back into
8 closed session, as I understand, to hear another witness, is
9 that not so, following this witness?
10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I think so, your Honour, we will not call any
11 witness further until this matter has been resolved.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I thought that we would be hearing from witness
13 L ---
14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is right. That is another matter.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- next, and that is another witness.
16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But that is not a witness from whom you have
18 taken a statement?
19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So I do not think that that impacts, so we can
21 go forward with L and that will be in closed. How long do you
22 anticipate that you would need for L?
23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Mr. Kay is right. We did not prepare for L because
24 we tried to prepare this, so we need one hour preparation for L
25 and then the cross-examination will take about, let us say, one
26 and a half hour. So we need one hour to prepare and one and a
27 half for cross-examination itself, because we intended to
28 prepare this last night which we could not because we were
1 trying to prepare this argument.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But you determined that you could not prepare
3 and so you did not go forward to prepare for L, I gather? By
4 then it was probably too late?
5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We tried to, that is right.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So now you need additional time to prepare for
7 L who will be your next witness after this and he is in closed
9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. What we will do, we will just continue
11 with this witness in closed session, W. We will then, depending
12 upon the time, it may fall naturally so that you will have the
13 hour that you need to prepare for L, and then continue with L
14 when you have had the hour. Do you need additional time to
15 prepare for cross-examination of L? Were you working on this
16 motion last night?
17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I have no idea what the cross-examination
18 will be about. I think I can only deal with it when we hear the
19 questions that are coming from the Defence.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are anxious, obviously, as we keep saying to
21 move the trial forward, particularly now you have witnesses
22 here, Mr. Wladimiroff, and I know you do not want them just
23 waiting, but we will give you that time. We will set it for
24 Tuesday at 10.00. If you can advise us on Monday whether you
25 need additional time, then we can set it at Wednesday at 10.00,
26 but keep it in mind that we too are anxious to proceed with the
27 witness. We will hear W and then we will hear L. Then I am
28 concerned, though, about the next witness because the next
1 witness may very well relate to the issue that we are dealing
2 with or, at least, it might arise.
3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Your Honour, we do not think it is good to continue
4 with W unless the matter has been resolved. We are not going to
5 call anyone further until the matter has been resolved. It is a
6 basic matter here and we cannot just go on blind, so we will not
7 agree with any further cross-examination on W.
8 (The learned Judges conferred)
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, may we not continue with W and
10 your other witnesses -- I understand you need additional time
11 for L -- if we reserve this issue of whether or not the
12 Prosecutor is entitled to receive the statement and use it for
13 impeachment purposes of W and any other witnesses? L, we are
14 not going to have that issue, but whoever is the witness
15 following L, and I do not have the list before me, we may have
16 the same issue as we did with W. But if we reserve this issue
17 of whether the Prosecutor is entitled to receive the statement
18 of the witness and use it for impeachment purposes, if we
19 reserve that, then are you ready to go forward with W and, of
20 course, L and then whoever would follow L?
21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I want to confer on that, your Honour.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff?
23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour. We may continue under that
24 reservation with W, but we cannot go on with the others because
25 even though under that reservation it will affect our position
26 and we have to know where we stand before we call people that
27 afterwards may be confronted with ----
28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So you can proceed with W with the
1 understanding that we will rule after we hear the arguments,
2 after we receive all of your authorities, as to whether or not
3 that statement may be used for impeachment purposes. Of course,
4 then you will keep W available for cross-examination.
5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then you can go forward with L because that is
7 not impacted, assuming you have your hour to prepare that you
8 need for L, but the next witness?
9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We will call no one further until the matter has
10 been resolved, your Honour, so we may continue on W and we shall
11 continue on L.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let us continue with W and see how much time
13 and when it falls in terms of what you will need for L, then we
14 will advise you regarding the position of the Chamber with
15 respect to the other witnesses. I hear what you say.
16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Your Honour, just for very formal reasons, we
17 cannot make any mistake here, you overruled yesterday twice, is
18 that overruling still standing?
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: With respect to the witness statement?
20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: You overruled questions put to the witness relating
21 to issues we have claimed are privileged. You have overruled
22 our objections relating to the production of any material.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That ruling will not stand until we hear oral
24 argument, so we will withdraw that ruling. As I indicated,
25 I conferred with my fellow Judges and then issued that ruling,
26 but we will withdraw it pending receipt of arguments and the
27 authorities that you will give us.
28 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Does it also relate to the questions put to the
1 witness related to issues we have claimed to be privileged?
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know what questions you are talking
4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: It is on page 4132.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is like we have all been looking at
6 authorities and not had an opportunity to look at the
8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have it here so I can just show it through the
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Since it was in closed, let me take a look at
12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: It is on two pages.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Tell me what page.
14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Page 4131, line 5, 4131, line 5, then line 6 and 7,
15 and then some discussion arose and then on the next page, line
16 10, you ruled on that.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I see another one, Mr. Wladimiroff. Look on
18 page 4136, line 28. That may be another concern you want to
20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is the one I referred to.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 4136.
22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Line 28.
24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You also referred to 4131 and page 4132, OK,
26 and then page 4136.
27 MR. WLADIMIROFF: As a matter of fact, it relates to the same
28 matter. Two principles here, where your ruling on 4132 dealing
1 with questions and your ruling you repeated that to handing out
2 material. These rulings, if they stand, we have a problem with
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I wanted to make sure, as I say, I did not hear
5 you say 4136, but if you said it, I missed you, but I do see the
6 ruling on 4131, 4132 and 4136, but they do relate to the same
8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So that is the issue that we have asked for a
10 briefing on and oral arguments. This morning you have indicated
11 you are not ready to go forward. We will consider it Tuesday.
12 That ruling will be withdrawn pending receipt of the material
13 and oral argument and then a ruling after we have the benefit of
14 all of those authorities. Does that satisfy you?
15 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. You can go forward with W then?
17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Indeed we can.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
19 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. I am not sure, my understanding was
20 that the Court was to sit on Monday, and I am not sure that
21 was ----
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, we had planned on meeting next week
23 Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and the following week, Wednesday,
24 Thursday and Friday. We have one courtroom and we are just
25 using it to our fullest. Thank you for cooperating but, yes, we
26 did plan on meeting on Monday. Will you, lawyers, be able to or
27 will you need the time for research?
28 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I am afraid not, we need that working day.
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine, Mr. Wladimiroff. We have been trying to
2 move along and I understand the problems you have had with your
3 witnesses. I am trying to now help you, but since this issue
4 has arisen, if you need the time, we will not receive any
5 evidence on Monday. However that impacts on the witnesses, you
6 will have to resolve. So Tuesday morning at 10 o'clock on that
8 Mr. Wladimiroff, the Prosecutor has provided a list of
9 authorities and they have also provided us with a copy of the
10 authorities. We will ask that you do the same for the Chamber.
11 Would you do that, please?
12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, we received that copy five minutes before we
13 arrived here.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The authorities that you file in support of
15 your position, provide us with a copy of the authorities as
16 well. Would you do that?
17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I will, your Honour, but we may have problems
18 having all materials translated. For example, the Dutch
19 material, I gather, is all in Dutch, you see.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand.
21 JUDGE STEPHEN: That is understandable.
22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I can understand, I hope you can through assistance
23 of others, but I am not able to have it translated in due time.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. Would you provide us with a copy of the
25 materials? If you are having problems with the translation of
26 materials, let us know, but please make your best effort to
27 provide us because we can only read it, obviously, if it is in
28 our language. I understand the problem you have. Do the best
1 you can.
2 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We will give you what we may gather. If we are
3 able to have it translated, we will do, otherwise we will give
4 it to you in the original language.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. You may do that, but please provide
6 us copies of the supporting material. That is what we wanted.
7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, we will, we certainly will. Your Honour, when
8 we continue after this argument, I will leave the room because
9 I have to take steps to provide for a change of our witnesses
10 because we have to tell the Witness Unit that things might
11 change next week.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. I want you to do that so we will
13 not have any problems. That is very helpful. Is there anything
14 else because then we will have to stand in recess for five
15 minutes so we can go back into closed session. Is there
16 anything else, Mr. Niemann, Mr. Wladimiroff? No? Very good.
17 We will stand in recess for five minutes and then return to
18 closed session and the following witness will be in closed as
20 (10.45 a.m.)
21 (The Court adjourned for a short time)
1 (Closed session)
13 pages 6049-6092 redacted – closed session
8 (Hearing in closed session – released by Trial Chamber II on 18 August 1997)
9 Witness L, recalled.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. L, you understand that you are still under
11 the oath that you took a few weeks ago to tell the truth, do you
12 understand that?
13 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
15 Further cross-examined by MR. KAY
16 Q. Witness L, you remember when you last attended this courtroom
17 you drew on a plan indicating various places around Trnopolje
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you remember indicating on that document where a place was
21 that you called the white house?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I have noticed from the list of exhibits, in
24 fact, that it is not on the official list that I have here.
25 I wonder if anyone can help us with this matter, to know whether
26 it has just been missed out in relation to a number or whether
27 there has been an error of some sort?
28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Judge Vohrah said it was marked as D34.
1 MR. KAY: Thank you.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have it?
3 MR. KAY: Perhaps if we can call for that? I am grateful to Judge
4 Vohrah for helping us on that matter. Can we have D34 and put
5 that on the overhead projector? No, that is the wrong file. It
6 should be Defence Exhibit file 34 and D38. Mr. Usher, if you
7 would put No. 34 on the overhead projector and let the witness
8 see it? Perhaps if we could have the picture back a bit, so
9 that we get all of the picture on? That is fine, thank you.
10 [To the witness]: Do you recollect telling us,
11 Witness L, that the place where you marked an X in a circle was
12 where you told us the white house in Trnopolje was situated?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This was a house that you told us was the scene of a number of
15 rapes committed by you and others, is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And where killings took place?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I would like to now show a video film of the road between the
20 camp and those houses at Trnopolje. I would like you to
21 identify as the camera goes up the road which of those houses
22 you say was the white house. Do you understand?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. KAY: If the technical booth could put on the first part of D61?
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This is in evidence, I presume, Mr. Kay? What
26 is the number?
27 MR. KAY: This is D61 which the Defence have just taken.
28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: D61?
1 MR. KAY: Yes. If you could look at this film, Witness L, and as it
2 moves up the road indicate to us which building is the white
4 A. This road is leading to Kozarac.
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. And the building is on the right-hand side.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. And, according to this video tape, as far as I can see, you can
9 only see the cultural centre.
10 Q. Yes. You will see more of the film, Witness L.
11 (The video tape was played)
12 A. You see the store. This is the dom or cultural centre, the
13 white building. This is the store where the two cars are. This
14 is the school.
15 Q. If you could stop the video machine there? Which of those
16 buildings shown on that film were or which building was the
17 white house?
18 A. You cannot see it on this video tape. It is not recorded. It
19 is not taped.
20 Q. Right. If it is not on that video tape, in relation to those
21 buildings that were photographed, whereabouts would that house
22 have been?
23 A. On the right-hand side, in relation to the school.
24 Q. Yes. You have marked it on your map, on the plan, and would you
25 like to see the film again and indicate to us whereabouts in
26 relation to the buildings of the camp the film should stop
27 because at that point at some distance, no matter how far from
28 the road, you would find the white house?
1 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I had not seen this video before, so it
2 was difficult for me to know what to expect, but I really am
3 having some difficulty in understanding why this is new and why
4 it is something that could not have been foreseen. I mean, the
5 Defence have been in possession of the statement of the
6 witness. The mention of the white house arises in that
7 statement on numerous occasions.
8 We know that the Defence have been to the scene.
9 I would have expected that it would not have been too difficult
10 to foresee, that a video taken of this scene by the Defence
11 before the commencement of the trial would not have been
13 MR. KAY: Would the Court like to hear me on this matter?
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
15 MR. KAY: Because in fact there was no -- could the witness take his
16 earphones off, please?
17 (The witness removed his earphones)
18 MR. KAY: If the witness could put his headphones back on? Witness,
19 what I want you to do is to call for the film to be stopped in
20 the location off the road opposite that camp at Trnopolje where
21 you say this building can be found.
22 (The video tape was played again)
23 You drew a map and made your mark on a map. I want you to stop
24 the film when the camera gets to the point on the right where
25 this building can be found.
26 A. Could you stop there?
27 Q. Just stop here.
28 A. Or turn it back a little bit, back to the road. That is it.
1 This is the road that you can see here, if you can zoom on it,
2 just to see this like a small bridge, a path.
3 Q. If you could just hold the camera for the moment? We see the
4 road in our picture on the right-hand side of the screen, is
5 that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The small path you are indicating, is that on the left-hand side
8 of the screen?
9 A. No, on the right when you are going from the school.
10 Q. Perhaps if you could just indicate on your screen and if two of
11 the lawyers -- is the magic pencil working -- can go and see
12 where you are indicating, with your Honours' leave, so that we
13 may identify this?
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. You want to go, Mr. Kay and Mr. Niemann?
15 MR. KAY: Yes.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good.
17 THE WITNESS: Here is the road towards the white house, the school
18 cannot be seen otherwise it can normally, but now you cannot see
19 it. This is the main road going to the white house.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The two of you will now have to agree on what
21 you saw and tell us for the record.
22 MR. KAY: The witness indicated on the right-hand side of the
23 screen. Your Honour will see on the road what appears to be a
24 change in colour. It goes from pinkish to brownish. If one
25 moves one's finger to the right where there are some greenery in
26 the general area of there, I wonder if Mr. Niemann would agree
27 with that?
28 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. It is not easy to describe, but the
1 thing is that it is not right in the foreground. It is, in
2 fact, looking at the film, about what seems to be between 10 and
3 15 metres down there is a change in colour of the road. So you
4 have the road there, about 10 or 15 metres down there is a
5 change in colour in the road. Where that change in colour of
6 the road is, there is, in fact, on the screen a white spot in
7 the greenery. It is about at that point.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: On the right-hand side here?
9 MR. NIEMANN: On the right-hand side.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are we all pointing? Yes, I see.
11 MR. NIEMANN: I do not think the white spot indicates the white house
12 or anything. That is just an indication of the spot where
13 the ----
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is a lighter spot than the greenery around
15 it. I cannot tell and, of course, he cannot zoom in on it. He
16 can only show what is photographed.
17 MR. KAY: I think the rest of the film may take us to the place.
18 Witness L, as the camera proceeds, can you tell us
19 when we get to the location? If the technical booth could now
20 play the film, perhaps slowly? (Video tape continued to be
22 A. Would you stop the picture? Stop the picture? [No translation]
23 You see the bridge, and along that path you reach the white
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are saying, the Judges are saying, we do not
26 see a bridge. I see what looks like a discoloration on the
27 right, a lighter colour, but I have no idea. If we go down
28 further with the film, will we see anything?
1 MR. KAY: Yes, we will. Perhaps if the film now can be played in
2 slow motion?
3 THE WITNESS: There is a pillar. This is the fence. This is in the
4 direction of the school which is behind. This is the school.
5 This part that you can see now -- stop the film.
6 MR. KAY: Stop the film, please.
7 A. So there is a big electric pylon. This used to be where the
8 guardpost was. You can see No. 4 and across the road there is a
9 little bridge and across that little bridge is the path leading
10 to the white house.
11 Q. Could it be played again in slow motion continuing up the road,
12 perhaps a little bit faster than that, if it is possible?
13 A. Here you can see the school.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is this going forward?
15 JUDGE STEPHEN: Did you mean play again?
16 MR. KAY: No, I meant go up the road. In fact, it is the camera
17 moving to the left, your Honour. It is not going backwards. It
18 is the movement of the camera.
19 THE WITNESS: Stop.
20 JUDGE STEPHEN: That is where we stopped before.
21 MR. KAY: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: You can see the little bridge here, not far -- as this
23 film was taken you come out of the school ----
24 MR. KAY: Just stop the camera there, please.
25 A. --- and move.
26 Q. Just stop the film there.
27 A. The white house is in this direction.
28 Q. Continue with the film, please, at ordinary speed.
1 A. Also, here is this path that you can see branching off the
2 road. Here, this last house that is here, below it to the left
3 was the school. This is as you look from the right-hand side.
4 Q. Stop there. Can you take the film back a bit, please? Just
5 stop there.
6 A. It is difficult with this camera in the way this was shot. It
7 is difficult to show it, to explain it. As for my showing it,
8 I can show it, no problem about that, but on the basis of this
9 footage it is a little bit difficult to understand, to
10 understand where the white house was precisely.
11 Q. The bridge that you indicated, if you cross that bridge, that is
12 the view that you would see, is that right?
13 A. You cross the bridge and then you see a road, a path, which
14 leads to the white house and you can see the white house.
15 Q. Can you help me with this? On the plans that you drew on when
16 you gave evidence -- just look at D34.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Look to your right, please, Witness L. It is on the screen for
19 you. Perhaps it can be put properly on the screen?
20 JUDGE STEPHEN: It needs to move up.
21 MR. KAY: Yes. Thank you. [To the witness]: You see where that X is
22 with a circle, just stop there.
23 A. I do.
24 Q. You placed the white house opposite at the end of the school
25 building, did you not?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. The little bridge you have indicated to us is, in fact, a little
28 bridge opposite where your guardpost would have been?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If we can have more of the map now shown on the screen because
3 you put a No. 4 where your guardpost was.
4 A. I see it.
5 Q. You did not mark opposite your guardpost, did you, Witness L?
6 A. The guardpost No. 4 is this, and you can see the white house
7 here. This, here is the office. Here is a small bridge which
8 passes over and which we used to reach the white house.
9 Q. The little bridge you have indicated, Witness L, was opposite
10 your guardpost at the end of the camp? Perhaps you would like
11 to look at another map that you drew on, D38, please? If that
12 could be put on the screen? If that can be taken back a little
13 bit, please -- move the map up the screen a bit -- so we can see
14 the bottom of the map? Just stop there. You wrote on this plan
15 in red biro. This time you did a square and you did a track in
16 red, did you not?
17 A. This is the white house. This here is where the command was,
18 and this is the path leading to the white house. There is this
19 little bridge which one otherwise used to come out of the camp,
20 that is, this is the road for Kozarac.
21 Q. When you drew on this plan you put that square indicating the
22 white house again opposite the end of the school, did you not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. We have just moved up that lane and passed the school and you
25 did not indicate a white house opposite the school?
26 A. Excuse me, your cassette, the one that you shot, it is very
27 difficult to show it to you, and mine -- had I drawn it with my
28 own hand and brought it here to the Court during those two
1 months that I was in the camp, then I would have indicated where
2 the white house was, where the road was and all. This was a map
3 that was brought here, put before me. I did not draw it. But,
4 otherwise I can also see on this map where the school is, where
5 the dom is, where the shop is and the road leading to Kozarac
6 and everything else.
7 Q. I would like you to see another section of film which was taken
8 from where your guardpost was where you marked 4 on that map.
9 If the second part of D61 could now be shown? If you could
10 switch on to the video monitor? This is your guardpost, is that
12 A. Excuse me. I do not see any picture here.
13 Q. I think you did see a picture before that. Is that where your
14 guardpost was?
15 A. No picture here, sorry. You can show me the school.
16 Q. Yes, the school is on the left.
17 A. To the left. Yes.
18 Q. Is that where your guardpost No. 4 was at the corner of the
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Can we show the rest of the second section then of
22 tape two?
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think that is the second part of the first
24 tape, 61. Do you have another Exhibit?
25 MR. KAY: Your Honour, we will just sort the matter out. Whilst we
26 are waiting, that house opposite your guardpost was a red house,
27 was it not?
28 A. The house that you could see across the road.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. That is where the command was. This house here that you see, it
3 belongs to a man who lives there.
4 Q. Just stop it there, please. Just stop it and back a bit, thank
5 you. If we could move it back a bit, a couple of frames -- on a
6 little bit. Thank you. You just hold it there.
7 [To the witness]: That is the place then opposite guardpost 4
8 with the little bridge across the ditch that you indicated from
9 that first film we showed you going up the road outside
10 Trnopolje, is that right?
11 A. Towards Kozarac, yes.
12 Q. Where would the white house be?
13 A. Behind these houses here, a little further away.
14 Q. This is a red house that we can see part of in this picture.
15 A. It is where the command headquarters were.
16 Q. What do you mean by "command headquarters"?
17 A. Well, "command" to me, it means the one who is the main, the
18 chief Commander of the camp and who came to guardposts. That
19 was the headquarters of the Commander who was the principal for
20 this job of the police, of the army.
21 Q. That was in the actual camp itself, was it not, Witness L, in an
22 office in the dom?
23 A. No, it was in this building. It is outside the camp. This
24 command headquarters was outside.
25 Q. In relation to this red building, where would we find the white
26 house? Come on. You can tell us.
27 A. It was not very far away from this house.
28 Q. Can you help me a little bit more as to how far away from this
1 house, if I was to walk behind this house where I would find it?
2 A. Towards Omarska about 250 metres or, as the crow flies, about
3 150 metres.
4 Q. If we could let this film continue then?
5 JUDGE STEPHEN: Could I just ask a question?
6 MR. KAY: Yes.
7 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, are you saying -- stop the film -- that this
8 is the path that leads to the white house, and do I understand
9 you as saying it is 100 or 150 metres up this path and I think
10 from your diagram to the left, is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. KAY: So perhaps then before the film starts again, if we were to
13 walk over this bridge and walk beside the red house, where would
14 we go to find the white house, and how far?
15 A. You go in the direction and in that direction is the white
16 house. You move towards Omarska and you go for about 250
17 metres. Naturally, as you come -- as you move along that road
18 you begin to see the white house.
19 Q. I do not want to begin to see the white house, I wanted to know
20 where the white house was. You have told us it was 150 metres
21 away. Now you are saying when we pass this red building, you
22 walk ----
23 A. But as the crow flies.
24 Q. --- towards Omarska and then you walk for 250 metres?
25 A. Yes, if you come out of the school from the main -- so you pass
26 by the school, you come out, you walk past the office, and you
27 start walking towards Omarska, in the direction of Omarska, to
28 this white house and it is then on the right-hand side but in
1 the direction of Omarska.
2 JUDGE VOHRAH: Can you reorientate our minds, where would Omarska be?
3 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, microphone, please.
4 MR. KAY: I will ask the witness, your Honour. If we could have the
5 film back on? Where would Omarska be if we cross this bridge
6 and walked beside the red house in the photograph? In which
7 direction would we be walking to get to Omarska, as you describe
9 A. Well, on the right-hand side you walk one or, perhaps, two
10 kilometres to Omarska. You can also go through the railway
11 station, turn towards Kozarac and then use the main road, Banja
12 Luka/Prijedor, that is, and you reach Omarska.
13 Q. No, we are not going through the railway station. We are going
14 across this small ditch, across the bridge and we are walking
15 past that red house. Do we keep walking in a straight line or
16 do we turn in any other direction?
17 A. You go straight ahead and you come to the white house. There is
18 no way to divert.
19 Q. Right. So we do not turn to the left and we do not turn to the
20 right. We just keep walking straight across that ditch and we
21 get to the white house, is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. For how far would we walk from that bridge to get to that
25 A. I told you, from the school, as far as I could judge, when
26 I walked it would be about 250 metres normally, as you walk
27 normally, and as the crow flies it is less. Of course, if a
28 crow flies then, of course, it is one thing, and if you walk on
1 the ground then it is a little longer.
2 Q. If we could continue with the film then in relation to what can
3 be seen around this area? If the booth could play the film at a
4 normal speed? Actually just stop the film here. Why can we not
5 see the white house from your guardpost? Can you take the film
6 back, please? If we can move the film back to the previous
7 shot? Why can we not see the white house from your guardpost?
8 Just hold it there.
9 A. Well, from what I can see, there are trees here. Then there is
10 this building and this foliage.
11 Q. But you told us that you could see it from your guardpost and it
12 is across this bridge?
13 A. Sorry, it has been four years and more since I worked at the
14 camp, but when I was there you could see the white house from my
15 guardpost. I am telling the truth that that building was
16 visible from my guardpost, and my guardpost can also be seen
17 from the white house. This here that was filmed, I do not know
18 when it was, what month it was, when this film was made.
19 Q. If we could continue with the film then? That is a scene of the
20 road that ran alongside the Trnopolje camp, is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. This is again the position of your guardpost with the school
23 some distance to your right?
24 A. This road that we now see was not there. Many things were not
25 there when I was there, from what I can see on the film.
26 Q. This road has always been there, has it not? It is the road to
27 Kozarac railway station?
28 A. It could be that road, yes.
1 Q. If we just stop the camera here? Here is a white house quite
2 near the water pump. Can you see that water pump?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you mean this house as the white house?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Let the camera continue. If we can just stop the film here,
7 thank you, and switch the television monitor off? Your Honour,
8 it might be an appropriate moment to take a break at this time
9 now for the Defence to look at some material which might help us
10 to develop this matter in cross-examination.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.
12 MR. KAY: Thank you.
13 (3.50 p.m.)
14 (The Court adjourned for a short time)
15 (4.15 p.m.)
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
17 MR. KAY: I am much obliged, your Honour.
18 Q. Witness L, I would like you to watch a third section of film now
19 and if the technical booth could play the third section of this
20 Exhibit 61? So, video monitors on.
21 (The video was played).
22 This is the rear of that building that was a white
23 house opposite the school. Indicate to us, whilst the camera
24 moves around to the rear countryside, if you can tell us where
25 the white house is?
26 A. I do not know this house.
27 Q. It is the one opposite the school that we were looking at the
28 front of it before the break. This is the area directly behind
1 that red house and that white house opposite the school. Can
2 you tell us where this white house is, if we can see it?
3 A. This does not look familiar. I do not know this. I can just
4 show where the school is and in relation to the school where the
5 building was, but this does not look familiar.
6 Q. This is the whole area behind that white house and red house
7 situated by the road. You see now we travel down the side of
8 this building, come out opposite the school, and there is the
9 water pump, the front of this house, there is the school, there
10 are the trees, there is the road.
11 A. Could you stop there?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. This is the school over there, and up here is the red house and
14 behind that red house there is a path leading to the white
16 Q. Let the film continue and we will play it again from the
17 beginning. All the camera has done has been in a circle around
18 this white house.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, pretty soon I am going to ask you to
20 take the oath, but it has been in a circle.
21 MR. KAY: Sorry, your Honour. Yes. I do not mean to state the
22 obvious to the Court. I am sorry about that.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, actually it was not obvious to me.
24 MR. KAY: If we stop there as this is the interior of that white
25 house? If we can go back to the beginning again to give you
26 another chance to look at it. Just so it is clear, just stop
27 there -- no, back a bit please. If you take it a few frames
28 back? Stop there.
1 A. Where this electric post is, that was my guardpost, where this
2 electric pillar is.
3 Q. Right. Let us play the film again and you tell us, as the
4 camera takes us around the area, where the white house would be
5 found and tell the camera to stop, the film to stop. So if you
6 could play it again, please?
7 A. This is the red house.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. That is where the command was. This building was not there.
10 Would you go back a little, please?
11 Q. If you could go back a bit?
12 A. Behind this red house is the path leading to the white house,
13 towards the white house.
14 Q. Let us continue to play it.
15 A. This is the red house. Behind the red house, you pass there and
16 you go in the direction of Omarska and straight ahead is the
17 white house. This is not it.
18 Q. There is the red house on the right. This is the area behind
19 the red house.
20 A. I am sorry, but on this video film I cannot show you where the
21 house is. I was there in the winter, so everything was ----
22 Q. Stop there, please. It seems, does it not, that we cannot see
23 this white house, certainly from the back of the white house and
24 red house that we have been looking at, is that not right?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. You told us this was a building you could see from your
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. From that position you said that you could see things happening
2 there, such as the killing of men?
3 A. Yes, you could see the pole. You could see the people. You
4 could see the white house normally, but I was there in winter
6 Q. Thank you. I do not require the use of the video monitor any
8 When you worked as a guard at Trnopolje, you told us
9 that you were promised 300 marks a month as your wages for
10 working at the camp, do you remember that?
11 MR. NIEMANN: Again, your Honour, I object to this question ----
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
13 MR. NIEMANN: --- due to the fact that it is not a new matter. It
14 was a matter that was raised in the course of the
15 evidence-in-chief of this witness.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This may be a preliminary question. Let us see
17 where we go.
18 MR. KAY: Your Honour, if I could be allowed to ----
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, I will overrule the objection.
20 MR. KAY: Thank you. [To the witness]: You told us that you were
21 not paid that money, is that right?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So how were you surviving, how was your family getting money?
24 A. My mother was working in a company and my father was called up
25 and he had a military pay.
26 Q. I think you told us that your father died and that you attended
27 his funeral?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. Presumably, after your father died there was no money coming
2 from him, is that right?
3 A. No, but there is my mother.
4 Q. Was there anyone else at home who was working?
5 A. No, I was working. After '93 I was working in agriculture.
6 Q. No, I am talking about in 1992 whilst you are at Trnopolje. You
7 told us your mother was working for a company. Was that whilst
8 you were working at Trnopolje?
9 A. No, afterwards, after that.
10 Q. But during this time that you are a guard at Trnopolje, from the
11 end of October to the end of December, was your mother working
13 A. No, but my father was on the front. Then he got killed. I was
14 in the camp working, but I never got any money and I was a guard
15 there and I was supposed to get compensation. I did not get
16 compensation, and then I ran away from that camp, not to work
17 there any more, because I could not stand it and they gave me
19 Q. Was there anyone else at home who was able to work?
20 A. No, I only had a mother and a sister.
21 Q. So it was just your mother, your sister and you at home, was it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would you just like to look at this photograph and tell me if
24 you recognise this man? (Handed). Do you recognise that man?
25 A. No. No.
26 Q. It is not your father?
27 A. No.
28 Q. What was your father's name?
1 A. [redacted].
2 Q. Is your father not alive today ----
3 MR. NIEMANN: I object, your Honour, to questions that may lead to
4 the identification of the family based on the order that the
5 Court made in this regard and matters which may tend to
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
8 MR. KAY: Your Honour, the particular person of the family is,
9 apparently, dead and the witness has given the name of that
10 person, so there does not appear to be any harm that could
11 occasion in relation to this questioning. When the court made
12 this particular order -- I refer to paragraph 15 of the Court's
13 judgment -- can the witness take his headphones off, please, and
14 perhaps the witness withdraw from court?
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take your headphones off -- put
16 your headphones back on. Do you speak English?
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you understand English?
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there an indication otherwise?
21 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I would feel much happier if the witness was
22 not in court. I am sorry about that.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand -- OK. I will ask the witness to
24 go out. Remember now, we are trying to proceed as expeditiously
25 as possible and not be too technical. Take your earphones off,
26 sir. Take your earphones off. We agreed that the process would
27 be that the witnesses would take their earphones off. Now you
28 are telling me you want him to go out of court.
1 MR. KAY: Your Honour, in most circumstances, I would approach the
2 Court on that basis as I have done, but here I am dealing
3 particularly with sensitive matters and the Defence have good
4 reason here in the questioning that is being undertaken.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Mr. Usher, would you take the witness
7 (The witness withdrew)
13 pages 6116-6136 redacted – closed session
27 (The court adjourned until Tuesday, 27th September 1996)