Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7337

1 Tuesday, 22nd October 1996.

2 (10.00 a.m.)

3 (Open session)

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

5 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, at some time

6 convenient to the Chamber today, I would like to raise a matter

7 with the Chamber in closed session in relation to Witness L in

8 which an order applies relating to that. It is a matter for the

9 convenience to the Chamber at some appropriate stage, but

10 preferably as soon as possible.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Bos raised that with us and we can meet in

12 closed session after our morning recess, if that is soon enough,

13 is it?

14 MR. NIEMANN: That is convenient, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness,

16 please?

17 MR. KAY: I call Jozo Popovic, your Honour.

18 JOZO POPOVIC, called.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is

20 being handed to you?

21 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will tell

22 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

23 (The witness was sworn)

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated. Thank you.

25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

26 Examined by MR. KAY

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may begin.

28 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

Page 7338

1 Q. Is your name Jozo Popovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What is your job, Mr. Popovic?

4 A. I am a teacher, a teacher.

5 Q. Are you currently a teacher?

6 A. No.

7 Q. When did you stop teaching?

8 A. In'69.

9 Q. Whereabouts do you live?

10 A. I currently live in Kozarac.

11 Q. For how long have you lived in Kozarac?

12 A. Since 1992.

13 Q. Where did you live before then?

14 A. I lived in the village of Bosanska Bojna in the municipality of

15 Velika Kladusa.

16 Q. When did you leave Velika Kladusa to come to the Kozarac region,

17 if you can remember the date?

18 A. Finally, September 15th 1992.

19 Q. I would like you now to look at a map so that we can have these

20 places in mind. Prosecution Exhibit 78, please. If you could

21 just take a few moments, Mr. Popovic, by looking at that map,

22 perhaps locating where Prijedor, Banja Luka and Velika Kladusa

23 are? Then if it could be put on the monitor beside you so that

24 we can point these things out and see them on the screen? There

25 should be a pointer, a steel pointer, on the desk in front of

26 you, Mr. Popovic. If that could be extended and perhaps the map

27 laid flat? If you turn to your right and point on there,

28 first of all, where Banja Luka is. Perhaps if we could come in

Page 7339

1 closer on the map? That is fine. If you could point, first of

2 all, where Banja Luka is?

3 A. Here. [The witness indicated].

4 Q. And where Prijedor is?

5 A. [The witness indicated] Here.

6 Q. And where Velika Kladusa is?

7 A. [The witness indicated] Here.

8 Q. Could the map be moved down the screen a little bit more? Much

9 more than that, so that Velika Kladusa is -- that is fine. Can

10 we go a little bit further into the map? Can we go a little bit

11 further into the map, please? Stop there. Just keep the

12 pointer on Velika Kladusa. Can you tell us where Bosanska Bojna

13 is which is the village you come from?

14 A. It is a bit north of Velika Kladusa, here.

15 Q. Is it between Glina and Velika Kladusa?

16 A. Yes, exactly halfway between.

17 Q. If we can move the map down the screen a little bit more? We

18 can see Glina there. If you just put your pointer on Glina?

19 Thank you. For how many years had you lived in Velika Kladusa?

20 A. I lived in Velika Kladusa since 1964.

21 Q. Were you born in that region?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Which region do you originate from?

24 A. I was born in the village of Otok, the municipality of Ogulin,

25 the Republic of Croatia.

26 Q. What is your date of birth?

27 A. August 10th, 1941.

28 Q. Are you a married man?

Page 7340

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us what your family consists of?

3 A. The members of my family are my wife, Petra, son Sasa, and son

4 Sinisa.

5 Q. Was your wife a teacher as well?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When did she stop teaching?

8 A. She virtually has not stopped except for a brief period during

9 -- between June, that is June or July of '92 until August, that

10 is September 1992, when she started working as an educator in

11 Hrnici.

12 Q. When we heard your evidence a moment ago, you said that you

13 stopped teaching in 1969, is that right?

14 A. That is right.

15 Q. What did you do from 1969 onwards?

16 A. For three and a half years I worked temporarily in the Federal

17 Republic of Germany. After 1974 I moved back to Velika Kladusa

18 where I worked in Kladusnica which is a company that provides

19 services.

20 Q. What work were you doing there?

21 A. At the beginning I worked as a receptionist in the Hotel Konak

22 for four months. Then I was a chief receptionist for two

23 months. After that I started working in the personnel

24 department and I was the head of the personnel until 1992.

25 Q. Your son Sasa, how old is he? What is his date of birth?

26 A. Sasa was born on December 5th 1972.

27 Q. Your son Sinisa, what is his date of birth?

28 A. He was born in August 1974.

Page 7341

1 Q. What was the reason for you leaving Bosanska Bojna?

2 A. I left because of the war, because of the war activities.

3 Q. At that time did you leave on your own or with other people?

4 A. With other people.

5 Q. You said that the starting date for your living in Kozarac was

6 September 15th 1992. Had you actually visited Kozarac before

7 that date?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When was that?

10 A. I was there twice, several hours each time; the first time in

11 July 1992.

12 Q. When was the second time?

13 A. I do not recall exactly the date.

14 Q. When you came to settle on September 15th 1992, was that when

15 your wife moved to also live in Kozarac?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did your son Sasa move at that time to live with you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What about your son Sinisa?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Has he ever lived with you in Kozarac?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Has he visited you in Kozarac?

24 A. Once.

25 Q. Where did your son Sinisa go when you left Bosanska Bojna?

26 A. He went to Topusko.

27 Q. Where is Topusko?

28 A. Topusko is to the south of Glina, about 30 kilometres from

Page 7342

1 Bosanska Bojna.

2 Q. Is that due south of Glina?

3 A. I could not tell you exactly -- I assume, yes.

4 Q. If we were to put that map in front of you again, although

5 Topusko is not marked, would you be able to show us the general

6 place where it would be found?

7 A. Yes, I could.

8 Q. Perhaps if Exhibit 78 could be put back on the monitor again?

9 If we can focus in on that left-hand corner of Bosnia where

10 Velika Kladusa is found?

11 A. Right here.

12 Q. If the map could be brought down the monitor quite a bit? If

13 the map could be brought right down on the monitor so that

14 Velika Kladusa is in the middle? Thank you. Could you point

15 out where Topusko is to be found on the map? Keep your pointer

16 on it for about five seconds.

17 A. [The witness indicated].

18 Q. Thank you very much. So that is to the west of Bosanska Bojna,

19 is that right?

20 A. It is possible. I said it was south of Glina by my assessment.

21 Q. Thank you. Can you recollect when your son Sinisa has visited

22 you at Kozarac, when that was?

23 A. I cannot recall exactly the date, but I know it was a weekend.

24 It was a Saturday and a Sunday.

25 Q. Whereabouts is your son Sinisa at the present?

26 A. In Belgrade.

27 Q. What was the reason for him not coming to Kozarac with you when

28 you moved there in 1992?

Page 7343

1 A. He was a student in the high school specialising in mathematics

2 in Velika Kladusa and since the war operations started right

3 after the end of that school year, after he finished a third

4 year in the school in Velika Kladusa, he moved to Topusko to the

5 same school because there were no war operations going on

6 there. So then he finished the fourth year. After that he

7 entered into the university and school of forestry in Banja

8 Luka, and he lived there. Before the last exodus, before

9 September 1, 1995, he went to do his regular national duty,

10 military duty, in Petrinja, and with the fall of Krajina he

11 withdrew with the relatives, the kin that we had there, to

12 Belgrade and he continues to live there to date.

13 Q. In 1992 when he was at the school in Topusko, who was he staying

14 with?

15 A. He lived with his uncle, my wife's brother, and his family.

16 Q. Did your son Sinisa ever work as a guard at Trnopolje camp?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I would like to ask you now some other questions about after you

19 moved to Kozarac. Which particular part of Kozarac do you live

20 in today?

21 A. In an area that is called Suhi Brod.

22 Q. Is that south of what is called the new Prijedor/Banja Luka

23 highway?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The house that you live in today, was that the first house you

26 moved in to when you arrived in the area from Velika Kladusa?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Was that house empty when you moved into it?

Page 7344

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know who owned it previously?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who was that?

5 A. Ibrahim Nukic.

6 Q. At that time did you have anywhere else to live yourself?

7 A. I did not.

8 Q. What had happened to your former home in Bosanska Bojna?

9 A. The house remained. However, after -- because of the war

10 operation the windows and doors were broken and the floor had

11 been ripped up and for a while there was only the roof. After

12 that I do not know what happened to the house.

13 Q. When did you last see it?

14 A. In May 1993.

15 Q. You described the final exodus from Velika Kladusa as being

16 September 1st 1995, is that right?

17 A. I did not understand the question.

18 Q. Were there a series of movements of people from the Velika

19 Kladusa area from 1992 onwards?

20 A. Yes, people were moving for two months.

21 Q. When you arrived in Kozarac did you meet a man called Dusko

22 Tadic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Had you known him before you arrived in the area?

25 A. No, I did not.

26 Q. Can you tell us what dealings you had with Dusko Tadic?

27 A. The first contact we had when he arrived with some other people

28 to my home, and Bozo Dragicevic was there with him, Goran Babic,

Page 7345

1 Milenko Zigic and another man, and I do not know his name. They

2 came to talk to me about the organisation of life of the new

3 people who arrived in this area.

4 Q. Why did they come to see you?

5 A. They came to me because I came with these other people from

6 Bosanska Bojna and those people needed to be included into the

7 life to organise the survival there. Since I was the President

8 of the Local Commune there, the people who they got in touch

9 with referred them to me so they came to me to discuss what we

10 should do next.

11 Q. Did you get involved with the Local Commune in Kozarac at this

12 time?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. What work were you involved with in relation to the Commune?

15 A. First of all, I joined in the activities of the political party

16 there, the Serbian Democratic Party. I was also a member of the

17 Executive Committee of the Local Commune in Kozarac and I was a

18 member of some temporary provisional commissions at the time.

19 Q. What temporary commissions were you involved with at that time?

20 A. First of all, I was a member of the commission for agriculture,

21 because we needed to organise the fall sowing, and it was a task

22 of the commission to organise that.

23 Q. Other than the agricultural commission?

24 A. There were other commissions for reconstruction of the economy.

25 We needed to reopen the mill where we would deal with the

26 crops. Then the commission for water works, and so on.

27 Q. At this time in autumn of 1992 were there many refugees that had

28 come to the Kozarac area?

Page 7346

1 A. From the territory of Velika Kladusa there were 150 households

2 who moved to this area, and we also found other people from

3 other regions of Bosnia and Herzegovina, from Jajce, Livno,

4 Travnik -- maybe some others, I do not know.

5 Q. Are you able to put a figure for us on the number of people at

6 this time that had moved into the Kozarac area?

7 A. It was roughly about 500 people, to the Local Commune of Kozarac

8 and the Local Commune of Trnopolje, there were also people who

9 had come to settle. I do not know the exact figure because

10 I did not keep any records there.

11 Q. Was Trnopolje run as a separate commune from Kozarac?

12 A. We came as part of the organisation of Trnopolje, but the

13 settlement in this Local Commune, the commune of Kozarac, the

14 two separated. The affairs of one Local Commune from the others

15 were separated.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Kay, would you ask the witness

17 whether there were 500 people or 500 households.

18 MR. KAY: Your Honour, yes. [To the witness]: The number you gave

19 us of people coming to the area in autumn of 1992, you gave the

20 figure of 500. Was that 500 people or 500 households?

21 A. 500 people and I said about 150 households.

22 Q. Was that from Velika Kladusa at this time or from the other

23 areas that you told also had refugees moving into Kozarac?

24 A. Only from Velika Kladusa.

25 Q. The figure I was actually seeing if you could help us with was

26 the total number of people, not only Velika Kladusa but those

27 from the other regions as well in the autumn of 1992?

28 A. Yes, there were more than that, but I do not know the exact

Page 7347

1 number.

2 Q. Subsequently in 1993 were these numbers added to by more people

3 coming into the region?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You told us that you joined the Executive Board of the Local

6 Commune. Did you also join the SDS Party in Kozarac?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Had you previously been a member of the SDS?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When had you joined that Party?

11 A. I joined in 1990 when it was founded in Velika Kladusa.

12 Q. The area that you came from in Velika Kladusa, were you a

13 minority ethnic group in that area?

14 A. Yes. We constituted less than one per cent of the total

15 population.

16 Q. What is your ethnic group?

17 A. Serbs.

18 Q. When you joined the SDS Party in Kozarac, did Dusko Tadic have a

19 position in the Party at that time?

20 A. Yes, he was President of the local committee of the Serbian

21 Democratic Party in Kozarac.

22 Q. In the autumn of 1992 can you tell us how many members of the

23 SDS there were in Kozarac?

24 A. According to the records he had, there were over 100 members.

25 I took over these records from him, and I looked through them

26 and brought them up-to-date. The number was reduced because

27 some people had moved.

28 Q. Did you actually yourself have a position in the Party at a

Page 7348

1 later stage?

2 A. I was the Vice President of the Party, of the local committee of

3 the Party.

4 Q. When did you get that position of Vice President?

5 A. Somewhere around October 1992, if I remember well.

6 Q. Did you ever obtain a position higher than Vice President?

7 A. Yes, I was President of the municipal board of the Serbian

8 Democratic Party of Velika Kladusa before moving.

9 Q. Did you remain as Vice President of the Party in Kozarac?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. Did Dusko Tadic remain as President of the local party?

12 A. He did.

13 Q. Did there come a time when he left Kozarac?

14 A. I do not know what you have in mind. For a short period or for

15 a longer period?

16 Q. For a long period, left Kozarac permanently?

17 A. Somewhere in August 1993.

18 Q. Did someone else become President after him?

19 A. Yes, after some time.

20 Q. Who was that?

21 A. It was me.

22 Q. Thank you. I would like to look at some documents now. The first

23 one is Prosecution Exhibit 155. If that could be put on the

24 monitor? Put it on the monitor in English and put the

25 Serbo-Croat in front of the witness and that will be easier.

26 Thank you.

27 This is a document, Mr. Popovic, that has been

28 introduced in evidence in this case. Can you see your name on

Page 7349

1 it as No. 2?

2 A. I do. I can.

3 Q. Can you tell us what the referendum on 15th and 16th May

4 concerned?

5 A. I do not remember.

6 Q. At this stage were you an ordinary member or were you Vice

7 President or some other position?

8 A. Yes, I was Vice President.

9 Q. Thank you. Perhaps if you could look at another document which

10 is No. 156? If the English could be put on the monitor and the

11 Serbo-Croat in front of the witness? This is dated 20th May

12 1993. We can see it is recorded there that you are Vice

13 President, is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. We can see from the information on this piece of paper that it

16 is an extract from "Election report on staffing of the local

17 committee of the Kozarac SDS. After a visit and check on the

18 work of the Kozarac local committee members, the local committee

19 was reelected and members from Jaruge, Kozarusa, Podgradje,

20 Hrnici and Kozarac town centre were elected". Then it is

21 signed on the right-hand side. Can you tell us, first of all,

22 as to the scale of the Party, the SDS in Kozarac, at this time?

23 A. I said that there were around 80 members.

24 Q. From your evidence we can determine that far more people lived

25 in the area than were members of the Party?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. You worked with Dusko Tadic who was President of the SDS in

28 Kozarac at this time. What was the main object of the Party's

Page 7350

1 work in Kozarac from the fall of 1992 until August 1993?

2 A. Well, the Serbian Democratic Party is a political party which

3 means that it engaged in political activity. Within that scope,

4 it proposed certain personnel solutions for the Local Commune.

5 It assessed the political situation, and through its

6 representatives in the executive bodies of the Local Commune it

7 would implement that policy.

8 Q. The Local Commune that you have referred to, did Dusko Tadic

9 also have a position in that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was his position?

12 A. He was Secretary of the Local Commune.

13 Q. Did you undertake any work for the Local Commune as well? You

14 have told us about the commissions you were involved in, but did

15 you work on behalf of the Local Commune in any other way?

16 A. I said already that I was a member of the Executive Board, which

17 at the time had 12 members.

18 Q. What were the concerns of the Local Commune at this time from

19 the autumn of 1992 till August 1993?

20 A. Would you please repeat the question?

21 Q. With what was the Local Commune involved in that period from

22 autumn of 1992 until August 1993?

23 A. I already said that in view of the fact that we had only just

24 come to these parts it was necessary to first accommodate

25 people. That was our task No. 1. Then we had to revive the

26 work of the elementary school so the children should continue

27 their regular education up to 4th grade of elementary school.

28 Then we needed to organise the health service to provide space,

Page 7351

1 facilities, a doctor; then enable the functioning of the

2 veterinary service, for the local people to have regular

3 supplies of electricity, water; then we had to distribute

4 relief, humanitarian aid, to refugees and people in need; to

5 maintain contact with higher level bodies in the municipality,

6 both at the Party level and at the administrative level in the

7 municipality; also to keep in touch with humanitarian

8 organisations in Prijedor and so on.

9 Q. Did you ever take over Dusko Tadic's role in the Local Commune

10 after he left Kozarac?

11 A. Yes, I took over the position of Secretary in October 1993.

12 Q. During this period from autumn of 1992 and August 1993, but

13 particularly during 1992, did you see Dusko Tadic regularly?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. About how frequently?

16 A. Almost every day, except for the weekend, and some days when

17 Dusko attended meetings in Prijedor.

18 Q. Could you see how he spent his time then at this stage from

19 autumn of 1992 until the end of the year of 1992?

20 A. In Kozarac.

21 Q. What was he doing?

22 A. Most frequently he was in the premises of the former elementary

23 school where both the Party and the Local Commune were based,

24 that is, where he held meetings, received people or he was on

25 location within the territory of the Local Commune touring the

26 remaining economic facilities, visiting and so on, working on

27 the ground, so to speak.

28 Q. Was he Commander of the collection centre at Trnopolje at this

Page 7352

1 time in 1992?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Were you aware of the fact that there was a collection centre at

4 Trnopolje during this period?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You have described Dusko Tadic's work in the commune of Kozarac

7 and in relation to the SDS. Did he work hard at these two

8 jobs? Did they occupy his time, so far as you could see?

9 A. Yes, it was hard work. It required work, so to speak, around

10 the clock, from morning till night, and it was the time of war.

11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, at this stage because of other matters that

12 I want to deal with in relation to this witness's evidence, we

13 should go into closed session.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for five minutes to go

15 into closed session. Then we will discuss the matter that you

16 wanted to discuss as well, Mr. Niemann.

17 (10.55 a.m.)

18 (The Court adjourned for a short time).

19 (11.00 a.m.)

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Page 7353

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Page 7370

1 (Open Session)

2 MR. KAY: Your Honour, whilst the witness is being fetched, may

3 I deal with a couple of housekeeping matters which concern

4 amendments to the transcript that the Registry have been good

5 enough to provide? There were some translations during the

6 video link that the parties agree were mistranscribed. If

7 I could just indicate them to the Court? The first concerns

8 page 5400 of the transcript during the evidence of

9 Mr. Samardija, line 13. His evidence was recorded as

10 being, "I think when the war began here in these parts in '42",

11 the correction I have been given is of "'92". The next page

12 concerns page 5406, line 26, which read, "They knew me and Tadic

13 but, believe me, I did not know them and I do not know them

14 until the present day" should read "They knew me and my

15 sister". I believe those have been served on the Prosecution as

16 well and all parties are agreed in those matters.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is correct, Mr. Keegan?

18 MR. KEEGAN: That is correct, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you, Mr. Kay. Mr. Keegan,

20 you may begin cross-examination.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour.

22 JOZO POPOVIC, continued.

23 Cross-examined by MR. KEEGAN.

24 Q. Mr. Popovic, I take it "Jozo" is your given name and not a

25 nickname, is that correct?

26 A. No, it is not "Jozo", it is "Jozo".

27 Q. Did you have a nickname?

28 A. No.

Page 7371

1 Q. Your wife's maiden name, the last name, the family name, is that

2 "Grmusa"?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. If could I have the usher -- if you would show this document

5 first to the Defence and then to the witness? Mr. Popovic, I am

6 going to show you a piece of paper with a name on it. What

7 I would like you to do is indicate to me whether or not that

8 name is a relative of your wife -- the name of a relative of

9 your wife, but do not say the name out loud, please?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. Could you please just tell us what the nature of the relation is

12 -- brother, cousin, uncle?

13 A. My wife's brother.

14 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if we could have that marked as the next

15 Prosecution Exhibit, please? That would be ----

16 MR. KAY: No objection.

17 MR. KEEGAN: That will be 358.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 358 will be admitted and sealed. The

19 transcript says, nature of the relation, brother, cousin, uncle

20 and you say "wife's brother". OK. Thank you, sorry.

21 MR. KEEGAN: Mr. Popovic, you indicated that you were the President

22 of the Local Commune in Bosanska Bojna prior to the war?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And that you had joined the SDS upon its founding?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Do you remember approximately when it is you became a member of

27 the Party?

28 A. Somewhere in August 1990.

Page 7372

1 Q. You have continued to be a member since that date, is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During that time you have advocated and supported the policies

5 and positions of the SDS, is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You indicated that your final move to the Kozarac area was in

8 September, September 15th, I believe, 1992, but that you had

9 visited the area on two occasions before that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you remember the date of your very first visit?

12 A. I cannot remember the date, but it was in July 1992.

13 Q. Did you move your group of 150 families to the Kozarac area as a

14 result of a meeting that you had in June 1992 in Bosanska Bojna

15 with leaders from the SDS of Prijedor as well as Simo Drljaca?

16 A. No.

17 Q. There was no meeting in June 1992 in Bosanska Bojna with members

18 of ----

19 A. There was a meeting,. There was a meeting, but not only with

20 representatives of SDS, but with Presidents of the municipality

21 of Prijedor, Bosanski Novi, Bosanska Krupa.

22 Q. Who was the President of the Prijedor municipality who attended

23 that meeting in June '92?

24 A. It was Dr. Milomir Stakic.

25 Q. He was also a member of the SDS, correct?

26 A. I do not know.

27 Q. Did a man named Simo Drljaca also attend that meeting in

28 June '92?

Page 7373

1 A. He did.

2 Q. What was the purpose of this meeting?

3 A. It was an information meeting.

4 Q. This meeting took place at the beginning of June '92?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. After this meeting did you continue to have contacts with the

7 SDS officials from Prijedor?

8 A. No, neither before nor after, not until we moved to Prijedor.

9 Q. Your visit in July, what was the purpose of your visit in

10 July '92 to that area?

11 A. To see the areas to which we planned to move.

12 Q. When was it that you started planning to move to that area?

13 A. That was left up to every family to decide individually.

14 Q. Again what was the impetus, what was the reason, why you chose

15 to move to the Kozarac area as opposed to any other area?

16 A. Because there were seven of us members of the commission

17 assigned to see what the conditions of life were in this part,

18 in this region, and to convey our impressions to the people

19 living in Bosanska Bojna. We said what the area was like

20 geographically, what the quality of the soil was, what the

21 infrastructure was and other conditions, and families decided

22 themselves whether they wanted to come there or to two other

23 municipalities that were offered to them for resettlement or

24 even to stay where they were living. It depended on their own

25 decision.

26 Q. The other two municipalities were the other two that you

27 mentioned that came to that June meeting?

28 A. Bosanski Novi and Bosanska Krupa. Those were their names at the

Page 7374

1 time.

2 Q. This whole issue of resettlement was organised by the SDS?

3 A. Not the SDS, but by the bodies of the Municipal Assembly of

4 Prijedor and at the time the command of the locality of Bosanska

5 Bojna. It had no direct connection with the SDS.

6 Q. You indicated that you sent your son Sinisa to Topusko to

7 continue to go to school?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The reason that you sent him there in part was because there

10 were no war operations going on there, correct?

11 A. In Topusko there were none, yes.

12 Q. You indicated you had family there as well?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You testified later on in your direct when discussing the

15 conditions in Kozarac and the responsibilities for the Secretary

16 of the Commune that, in part, it was difficult because the area

17 was in war conditions at that time. My question is why would

18 you choose to move to Kozarac which was in the midst of war

19 conditions if, in fact, you could have gone to Topusko where

20 there was none and you also had family? What was offered to you

21 in order to convince you to move to the Kozarac area?

22 A. In the first place, I did not go to Topusko because this

23 brother-in-law of mine, my wife's brother, was living in an

24 apartment with one room with his wife, his daughter, then his

25 wife's brother's son was also there going to school and my son.

26 So really there was no room there. In view of the fact that

27 most people opted for resettling in Kozarac, I decided to move

28 there with my family primarily because we would be provided

Page 7375

1 accommodation and there were other farm buildings that were

2 available to move the cattle that we had, the livestock, and we

3 were told that we would temporarily be able to till the deserted

4 field, that we could invest in them.

5 Q. Your son Sasa who moved with you to the Kozarac area, was he

6 employed in Kozarac?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did he ever work at the Trnopolje camp?

9 A. He did.

10 Q. When was that?

11 A. I do not know exactly, because he was a conscript and it was the

12 army that made the assignments.

13 Q. On how many occasions did you visit Trnopolje camp?

14 A. The camp itself, not once, but near the camp, yes.

15 Q. When you say "near the camp", what do you mean by that?

16 A. I said before that we came within the framework of the

17 organisation of the Local Community of Trnopolje, and I had to

18 contact with the staff that was based in, headquartered in,

19 Trnopolje, and that distributed the houses we were moving into.

20 So that I would just pass by the camp because from Suho Polje to

21 the staff headquarters I had to pass by the camp and that was

22 the only contact I had with the camp.

23 Q. As to your son Sasa, can you tell us what year or month he began

24 working at the camp?

25 A. It was not work. It was his military duty. I do not know the

26 date, but he knows exactly, because he did not just go there to

27 guard the camp; he was a member of a Unit, of a military Unit.

28 Q. What Unit was he a member of, if you recall?

Page 7376

1 A. At first, the 43rd motorized, and later it became the 5th Kozara

2 Brigade.

3 Q. Where was the military Unit's base or headquarters in the area

4 of the camp?

5 A. I do not know.

6 Q. You did not go visit your son when he was on duty there?

7 A. Which son?

8 Q. Which of your sons were assigned there in addition to Sasa?

9 A. Not one of them.

10 Q. So, obviously then it must be Sasa. Did you not go visit him

11 when he was assigned to duty there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You have indicated that you were a resident of, assigned to, the

14 Mjesna Zajednica of Trnopolje, the Local Commune of Trnopolje.

15 How was it that you were then invited to become an official of

16 the Kozarac Local Commune?

17 A. We came within the organisation of the Local Commune of

18 Trnopolje, but we were not members. We were not residents of

19 that Local Commune, but we in a sense seceded from it when we

20 arrived, and a member of the Executive Board -- I became a

21 member of the Executive Board by election. An Assembly Meeting

22 of citizens elects members of the Executive Board. I was

23 proposed and I was elected.

24 Q. If Prosecution Exhibit 156 could be shown to the witness again,

25 please? (Handed). If you could put the English copy on the

26 Elmo, please, so that the Court can see it? Mr. Popovic, this

27 is the document which you were shown earlier. If you could move

28 it so that that top paragraph is on the screen? If it could be

Page 7377

1 focused down a little so the whole paragraph can be seen? Thank

2 you. Mr. Popovic, I would like to direct your attention to the

3 paragraph that is above the list of names. The language

4 indicates that after a visit and check on the work of the

5 Kozarac local committee members, the local committee was

6 reelected, etc. My question is, who was it that came to visit

7 you and check on your work?

8 A. I do not understand the question.

9 Q. OK. Does that paragraph which is just above the list of names

10 begin with the phrase "After a visit and check on the work of

11 the Kozarac local committee members"?

12 A. No, I have a different text before me.

13 Q. OK. What does your text say?

14 A. "In accordance with the initiative on visiting and checking the

15 work of the members of the SDS local committee, the reelection

16 and filling in of vacancies of members of the local committee

17 was carried out with members from Jaruge, Kozarusa, Podgradje

18 Hrnici and Kozarac".

19 Q. OK. So my question is, who was visiting and checking on the

20 work of the members of the SDS local committee?

21 A. The work of members of the local committee is controlled or,

22 rather, it reports to the Assembly of the Serbian Democratic

23 Party and the Assembly consists of all members of the local

24 committee and they do the checking and the reelection.

25 Q. So the members of the local committee visit and check their own

26 work and then reelect themselves? Am I understanding you

27 correctly?

28 A. You did not understand me correctly. The Assembly of the

Page 7378

1 Serbian Democratic Party consists of all members of that Party,

2 and they propose and elect from within their ranks the members

3 of local committees. So it is not the local committee that

4 reelects itself; it is elected by the Assembly which consists of

5 all members of the Party.

6 Q. Approximately, how many members of the SDS were there in the

7 Kozarac area at this time?

8 A. At that time when these other hamlets were covered by the Local

9 Commune, these that are listed here, Jaruga, Kozarusa,

10 Podgradje, it had more members. Later, these localities, Jaruga

11 and Kozarusa, were separated and they formed their own Local

12 Commune, and so that members of the Serbian Democratic Party

13 then their number was reduced. But at the time of these

14 reelections, as far as I can remember, there were over 100

15 members of the SDS Party and that number was later reduced with

16 the separation of these localities.

17 Q. At the bottom of the page on the right is a signature block.

18 Whose signature is there?

19 A. I do not know.

20 Q. You do not recognise that signature?

21 A. I can see that it says "Tadic" and, as he was President at the

22 time, I assume that it is his signature, but I cannot claim with

23 certainty.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. You are welcome.

26 Q. If I could just go back for a moment to the issue of Trnopolje?

27 You indicated that with respect to being a part of that Local

28 Commune you had contact with the staff that was based in the

Page 7379

1 headquarters in Trnopolje, and that in going to that location

2 you would pass by the camp. Can you tell me where that staff

3 headquarters was located?

4 A. It was located on the road from Trnopolje to Prijedor, about one

5 kilometre away in a house, a private house.

6 Q. Was that house on the left or the right-hand side of the road as

7 you were going towards Prijedor?

8 A. On the left, on the left-hand side, yes.

9 Q. What was the colour of that house?

10 A. I think that the facade was white. I know there was a kind of a

11 verandah in front.

12 Q. Where were the offices of the local staff, what part of the

13 house?

14 A. On the ground floor, to the right.

15 Q. How many floors were there in that house, do you recall?

16 A. I think there was a ground floor, and maybe just a loft but

17 I cannot remember exactly. There was an auxiliary building

18 attached where meetings were sometimes held.

19 Q. With respect to the duties of the Secretary of the Local

20 Commune, you discussed the responsibilities and the nature of

21 those duties to some degree. Is it also true that the Secretary

22 of the Local Commune worked in close co-operation with the local

23 authorities in Prijedor itself?

24 A. With the bodies of the Municipal Assembly, yes, because he is

25 actually an employee of the Assembly.

26 Q. With the President of the opstina Prijedor?

27 A. When necessary.

28 Q. When you took over those duties, did you, in fact, have meetings

Page 7380

1 with Milomir Stakic about Kozarac and Prijedor?

2 A. No, only as a deputy at meetings of the Municipal Assembly.

3 When Dr. Milomir Stakic chaired the Assembly meeting, I attended

4 it as a deputy, but personally I did not have any contacts with

5 him.

6 Q. You talked about seeing the accused Dusko Tadic frequently in

7 the fall of '92, that most frequently it was in the local

8 school, but that he would have to travel throughout the area

9 visiting economic facilities, visiting refugees, etc.,

10 frequently, day and night, is that correct?

11 A. I did not say at night, but he did during the day.

12 Q. Did you have a vehicle of your own, a personal vehicle?

13 A. I did.

14 Q. Was that a white Golf?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you ever loan that vehicle to Dusko Tadic so that he could

17 conduct his responsibilities as a Secretary of the Commune?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. Did you travel around in your white Golf when you were

20 conducting your duties?

21 A. Yes.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, would you ask the witness if the

23 Golf belonged to him personally or the municipality?

24 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. [To the witness]: I asked you

25 earlier if you had a personal vehicle and asked if that was a

26 white Golf. Did you, in fact, own that car yourself?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. You indicated that the inhabitants of Kozarac still receive

Page 7381

1 humanitarian aid, is that so?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who directs that aid to those people?

4 A. A Commission for Humanitarian Aid which has four members, of

5 which one represents the Local Commune, one represents the

6 refugees and misplaced persons, one is a member of a family of

7 killed veterans and disabled from first to fifth category.

8 Q. Who are those people, can you give us their names, please?

9 A. Just now this duty is being performed by Mr. Marcetic Zoran, as

10 Chairman of the Commission, Zoran Marcetic, Zeljko Grmusa,

11 member, Dragomir Crnogorac, member, and Branko Mitrovic, member.

12 Q. In the homes which the people from Bosanska Bojna and yourself

13 live in in the Trnopolje area, if, in fact, the original owners

14 of those homes returned to the Trnopolje area, is it your

15 understanding that you would have to move out of those homes and

16 find a new place to live?

17 A. Of course we will.

18 MR. KEEGAN: Just a moment, please, your Honour. Nothing further,

19 your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

21 Re-Examined by MR. KAY

22 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

23 Q. You were questioned about the meeting in June 1992 of the

24 municipalities of Prijedor, Bosanski Novi and Bosanska Krupa.

25 Was Dusko Tadic present at that meeting?

26 A. No.

27 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask. Mr. Keegan, do you have

28 additional questions?

Page 7382

1 MR. KEEGAN: No, your Honour, I do not.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to this witness being

3 permanently excused?

4 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour, there is.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Pursuant to our earlier discussion, then

6 Mr. Popovic you are free to leave. However, you may be recalled

7 as a witness perhaps this week. So you should keep in touch

8 with Mr. Kay and make yourself available but you are free to

9 leave now. Thank you for coming.

10 THE WITNESS: All right, thank you.

11 (The witness withdrew)

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano, would you call your next

13 witness?

14 MISS DE BERTODANO: Yes, your Honour. The next witness is Sinisa

15 Popovic.

16 SINISA POPOVIC, called.

17 Examined by MISS DE BERTODANO

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that has

19 been handed to you?

20 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will tell

21 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

22 (The witness was sworn)

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

24 MISS DE BERTODANO: Witness, is your name Sinisa Popovic?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Where do you live?

27 A. In Belgrade.

28 Q. How long have you lived there?

Page 7383

1 A. One year.

2 Q. What is your ethnic group?

3 A. Serb.

4 Q. What is your date of birth?

5 A. August 18th 1974.

6 MISS DE BERTODANO: If this document could be marked as Exhibit 81

7 and given to the witness?

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Does the Prosecutor have a copy of that

9 Exhibit?

10 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, yes, and I have copies for the Bench

11 and copies also of a translation. Perhaps if the Exhibit could

12 be marked as A and the translation as B?

13 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, could we possibly be told what marking is

14 on that Exhibit?

15 MISS DE BERTODANO: 81 -- it is No. 1A and B. 1A will be 81A and 1B,

16 81B.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Usher, would you show it to the

18 Prosecution? Then please show it to the Prosecution and then we

19 will have it marked.

20 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, they have a copy, I believe, that

21 they have identified it.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Do you have a copy now?

23 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour, we have what was marked as 1A and 1B.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is what is 1A and 1B?

25 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, yes.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, good.

27 MISS DE BERTODANO: Mr. Popovic, is that your birth certificate?

28 A. Yes.

Page 7384

1 Q. Does it have on it your father's name?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What is your father's name?

4 A. Jozo.

5 Q. You have told us that you live in Belgrade. What is your

6 occupation in Belgrade?

7 A. I work with a private entrepreneur.

8 Q. What sorts of job do you do?

9 A. Those are carpentry, woodwork, works.

10 Q. Have you studied carpentry and woodwork?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Before you lived in Belgrade, where did you live?

13 A. Topusko.

14 Q. When did you complete your education?

15 A. I completed in June 1993, that was the high school. Then

16 I started -- enrolled in Banja Luka at the university in the

17 fall of 1993, and I still have the status of a student to date.

18 Q. Did you study in Banja Luka?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did you study?

21 A. A school of forestry.

22 Q. If I could have this Exhibit, which is for the Prosecution

23 No. 2A and B, marked as 81A and B.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 81A and B, that was

25 the previous one, the birth certificate?

26 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 81A and B will be admitted. This will be

28 82A and B.

Page 7385

1 MISS DE BERTODANO: One again, there are copies for the Bench.

2 Witness, do you recognise this document?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What is this document?

5 A. That is a certificate that I was enrolled in the first semester

6 of the school year, the academic year 1993/94 as a full-time

7 student.

8 Q. You told us that before you went to study in Banja Luka you were

9 studying in Topusko, is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When did you graduate from the school in Topusko?

12 A. In June 1993, I think. I do not know the exact date.

13 Q. If I could have this document marked as 83A and B and that is 3A

14 and B for the Prosecution. If 83A could be put in front of the

15 witness. Mr. Popovic, do you recognise that document?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us what it is?

18 A. That is the certificate of the completed fourth grade of the

19 elementary school in Topusko, the natural science and

20 mathematics department.

21 Q. Does it give a list of your grades and then an overall mark?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was the overall mark?

24 A. 4.53.

25 Q. Could I have this document marked as 84A and B, and that is 4A

26 and B for the Prosecution. If 84A could be put in front of the

27 witness. Do you recognise that document?

28 A. Yes.

Page 7386

1 Q. What is it?

2 A. That is a certificate about the exams that were the balance.

3 That is the exams, the additional exams I had to pass in order

4 to get my certificate, my diploma.

5 Q. What is the date on that certificate?

6 A. March 11th 1993.

7 Q. When did you take those exams?

8 A. Several days before the certificate was issued.

9 Q. For how long were you at the school in Topusko?

10 A. One school year, 1992 to '93.

11 Q. Where had you been at school previous to that?

12 A. Before that I went first, the first year of the secondary school

13 in Bihac and then the second and third in Velika Kladusa.

14 Q. If these documents could be marked 85A and B, and that is 5A and

15 B on the Prosecution list. Mr. Popovic, do you recognise that

16 document?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What is it?

19 A. It is a certificate about the completed third year of the

20 secondary school in Kladusa.

21 Q. What year is it dated?

22 A. 1991 and '92.

23 Q. You finished school in Kladusa in 1992, is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where were you living at that time?

26 A. In Bosanska Bojna.

27 Q. Did you continue to live in Bosanska Bojna during the summer of

28 1992?

Page 7387

1 A. Up until August, end of August 1992.

2 Q. What happened at the end of August 1992?

3 A. Because of the war operations I had to take refuge from there.

4 Q. Where did you take refuge?

5 A. I went to Topusko.

6 Q. Where did you go to live in Topusko?

7 A. In March Eighth Street with my uncle.

8 Q. Is your uncle your mother's brother or your father's brother?

9 A. He is my mother's brother.

10 Q. Where did the rest of your family live at this time?

11 A. In Prijedor, more precisely in Kozarac.

12 Q. When did they move to Prijedor?

13 A. I think it was at the end of August or beginning of September.

14 Q. What does the rest of your family consist of?

15 A. I have a brother Sasa and a father and a mother.

16 Q. Did they all go to live in Kozarac at this time?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did they all go there together?

19 A. I think they did.

20 Q. When you were in Topusko living with your uncle, did you go and

21 visit your family in Kozarac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When did you first go to visit them?

24 A. The first time I visited them in February '93.

25 Q. Had you visited them at all in the area of Prijedor before that

26 date?

27 A. Before that I visited them in August '92, but I was not in the

28 home. But we saw each other in Prijedor, in the city.

Page 7388

1 Q. How long had they been in the area of Prijedor at that time?

2 A. Maybe several days.

3 Q. Had they yet settled in the home that they found near Kozarac?

4 A. I think that they did, but I am not 100 per cent sure.

5 Q. Which members of your family did you see in Prijedor?

6 A. My brother.

7 Q. How did you travel from Topusko to Prijedor?

8 A. A tractor.

9 Q. Was anyone travelling with you?

10 A. My brother and two friends or three.

11 Q. Is that your brother Sasa?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How long did you stay in Prijedor?

14 A. Several hours.

15 Q. Did you see your father in Prijedor?

16 A. No, I did not see him.

17 Q. Did you return on the same day to Topusko?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How did you travel back?

20 A. Again with my brother Sasa.

21 Q. Did your brother Sasa then stay in Topusko with you or did he

22 return to the Prijedor area?

23 A. He then went to Bojna, you could still go there at that time,

24 and then after that he went back to Prijedor.

25 Q. Do you know when it was that he went back to Prijedor?

26 A. I do not know exactly.

27 Q. When you visited Prijedor did you visit any other villages in

28 the area?

Page 7389

1 A. No.

2 Q. When did you start your school year from 1992 to '93?

3 A. September 2nd.

4 Q. At what school was that?

5 A. That was the secondary school Bogdan Orescanin.

6 Q. Who was the head teacher at that school?

7 A. Vojo Pavlovic.

8 Q. Did you have a class teacher in addition to the head teacher?

9 A. Yes, there was Milica Paic.

10 Q. Did Milica Paic teach you any individual lessons in addition to

11 being your class teacher?

12 A. Yes, she did physical education.

13 Q. Was a register taken of your attendance at the school in

14 Topusko?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How often was it taken?

17 A. Every day at class.

18 Q. Were you ever absent during the year of 1992 after September 2nd

19 from the school in Topusko?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What days of the week were you in the school?

22 A. Monday through Friday.

23 Q. At weekends did you stay in Topusko or did you travel elsewhere?

24 A. Mostly I was in Topusko.

25 Q. Did you ever travel out of the area of Topusko during 1992?

26 A. I do not know. Maybe I would go to another part of Krajina or

27 Glina Petrinja.

28 Q. Did you ever travel to Prijedor after the visit you told us

Page 7390

1 about in August 1992 and before the end of 1992?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you see your family at all during that time?

4 A. Yes, they were coming to visit me.

5 Q. Did you know where they had settled?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And where had they settled?

8 A. In Kozarac, near Prijedor.

9 Q. Was that in the town of Kozarac itself or in a neighbouring

10 village?

11 A. I think it is a village. I think that Kozarac itself is a

12 village.

13 Q. Did your family live in Kozarac or in a village outside Kozarac?

14 A. I cannot tell you exactly the demarcation between Trnopolje and

15 Kozarac. I think the hamlet was called Hrnici.

16 Q. Did you visit your family in Hrnici at any time during 1993?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When was it that you first visited them in 1993?

19 A. I think it was February 16, '93.

20 Q. For Prosecution purposes this is No. 8 of the bundle. There are

21 three copies for your Honours. If that could be marked as

22 Exhibit 86. Your Honours, there is presently no translation of

23 that. What I intend to do is to get the witness to read out the

24 document so that it can be translated onto the record. Then we

25 will get a translation of the document at a later date.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you wish to offer Defence Exhibits 82A and

27 B, 83A and B, 84A and B and 85A and B?

28 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, yes.

Page 7391

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

2 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They will be admitted. Is there any objection

4 to 86? The witness is going to read it.

5 MISS HOLLIS: I do not know yet, your Honour. I do not know what

6 this is.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Of course. We will have read it. It will go

8 into the record and then we will rule on any objection. OK.

9 MISS DE BERTODANO: Mr. Popovic, do you recognise that document?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What is it?

12 A. A certificate.

13 Q. Because we do not have a translation of it I would like you to

14 read the document from the top to the bottom so that it can be

15 translated in court for the record. So if you could start from

16 the word "Srednja skola" at the top and read right through to

17 the bottom.

18 A. "At the secondary school Bogdan Orescanin in Topusko the

19 certificate. Hereby, it is certified that Sinisa Popovic, son

20 of Jozo, born August 18, 1974 in Bihac, municipality of Bihac,

21 state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the full-time student of the

22 school Bogdan Orescanin in Topusko in the school year 1992/93,

23 that he is enrolled in the fourth year. This certificate is

24 issued in order to allow free movement from Topusko to Prijedor

25 and cannot be used for any other purposes." Then a date 1993

26 and a secretary of the school, Milica Paic.

27 Q. What was that date in 1993?

28 A. February 16, 1993.

Page 7392

1 Q. If you turn that document over there are some markings on the

2 back of it. Can you tell us what those markings are?

3 A. Those are some numbers which I took down while I was playing

4 cards.

5 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, I offer that document as No. 86.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

7 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence 86 will be admitted. We will stand in

9 recess until 2.30.

10 1.05 p.m.

11 (Luncheon Adjournment)

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

Page 7393

1 (2.30 p.m.)

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff and Mr. Keegan, are you

3 delighted to be back in this courtroom?

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, Your Honour, as a matter of fact, I felt like

5 Mr. Bean being in Banja Luka.

6 MR. KEEGAN: It was an interesting perspective on that side of it,

7 your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We feel like we are enclosed sometimes and in a

9 fish bowl, but we learn to appreciate it, I guess, when we

10 encounter other circumstances.

11 SINISA POPOVIC, continued.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may begin, Miss de Bertodano.

13 MISS DE BERTODANO: Thank you, your Honour.

14 Examined by MISS DE BERTODANO, continued.

15 Q. Your Honour, I would ask that Defence Exhibit 86 be placed in

16 front of the witness again? Mr. Popovic, before the luncheon

17 adjournment you read out that document to us. I would like you

18 to tell us now what was the purpose of that document?

19 A. At that time I could not leave Krajina when I wanted to go and

20 visit my parents because of certain circumstances, and with this

21 pass I had no problems. It was easier to pass.

22 Q. Did you have to show this pass anywhere?

23 A. Yes, at the crossing between the Republic of Serbian Krajina and

24 the Republika Srspka at Dvor Na Uni.

25 Q. During that school year, was this the only pass that you got of

26 this nature?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Was this the only time that you visited the area of Trnopolje

Page 7394

1 during this year?

2 A. No.

3 Q. On what other occasions did you visit the area of Trnopolje?

4 A. After February. I think it was in June, end of June, in '93.

5 Q. Was that after you had completed your school year?

6 A. No, just before.

7 Q. When you went to see your family on this occasion on

8 16th February 1993, how long did you spend with them?

9 A. A few days.

10 Q. Where did you go to after you had seen them?

11 A. Back to Topusko.

12 Q. Were you aware that at any time there was a collection centre in

13 Trnopolje near to where your family lived?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How were you made aware of that?

16 A. I did not know directly, but from hearsay.

17 Q. When did you hear about it?

18 A. Well, shall we say, in January '93.

19 Q. Who did you hear about it from?

20 A. From friends of, I do not know exactly who, the rumour was,

21 whether it was true, I did not know.

22 Q. Did you ever visit that collection centre?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you ever work as a guard at that collection centre?

25 A. No.

26 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, at this point I would ask that we go

27 into closed session.

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let us see. Cross-examination is not going to

Page 7395

1 be conducted on that matter that we go into closed session for?

2 I was thinking that, perhaps, we might go into cross-examination

3 and then go into closed session and hear both sides.

4 MISS DE BERTODANO: I have no objection to that, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not think that will work. Then we will

6 stand in recess for five minutes to go into closed session.

7 (2.40 p.m.)

8 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

9 (2.45 p.m.)

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Page 7396

1 (Closed Session)

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13 pages 7396-7402 redacted closed session

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Page 7403

1 (Open Session)

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis?

3 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

4 SINISA POPOVIC, continued

5 Cross-examined by MISS HOLLIS, continued.

6 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, one other matter concerning Prosecution

7 Exhibit 359, we would ask that that be under seal.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. It will be under seal 359.

9 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. [To the witness]:

10 Mr. Popovic, you indicated that you moved to Belgrade about a

11 year ago, is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where did you live before you lived in Belgrade?

14 A. Topusko.

15 Q. During the time you went to school in Banja Luka where did you

16 live?

17 A. Also in Topusko.

18 Q. So you commuted back and forth each day?

19 A. No, I had a flat in Banja Luka.

20 Q. So, how many days of the week would you remain in Banja Luka?

21 A. Depending, sometimes five, sometimes over the weekend, so that

22 would mean 14.

23 Q. I am sorry. You said sometimes five days a week and sometimes

24 you would also remain there over the weekend, is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. What was the period of time that you went to school in Banja

27 Luka, from what month and year until what month and year?

28 A. '93, early September, is when I left for Banja Luka to start,

Page 7404

1 and then the academic year ended June '94. So then there was a

2 summer vacation until September of '94, that means -- which

3 means that is where the academic year resumes.

4 Q. You spoke about a trip that you took to Prijedor in August 1992,

5 a trip that you took on a tractor. Do you recall when it was in

6 August 1992 that you made that trip?

7 A. I am not sure. I think it was somewhere around 20th August.

8 I am not sure.

9 Q. Why did you go to Prijedor on that occasion?

10 A. I wanted to buy some clothing, some personal clothing, for

11 myself.

12 Q. Who went with you on that occasion?

13 A. My brother Sasa and some friends. I think there were two or

14 three that went along.

15 Q. At this time was your brother Sasa living with you in Topusko?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Where did you go to meet with your brother Sasa before you

18 continued on to Prijedor?

19 A. To Glina.

20 Q. Then from Glina you went to Prijedor?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you actually go to the town of Prijedor or to some area

23 around the town of Prijedor?

24 A. I stayed in the town looking for what I wanted to buy while the

25 brother went to Kozarac, to that house where my family moved to.

26 Q. Do you know how your brother went from Prijedor to your family's

27 house in Kozarac?

28 A. With that tractor which we took to come to Prijedor.

Page 7405

1 Q. Do you recall the names of any of your friends who went with you

2 on this trip to Prijedor?

3 A. I think it was Slobodan and Stanko.

4 Q. Slobodan's last name is what?

5 A. I do not remember.

6 Q. Stanko's last name, do you remember that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How long did this trip take you to go from Glina to Prijedor by

9 tractor?

10 A. About four maybe even five hours.

11 Q. The return trip from Prijedor back home, how long did that take

12 you?

13 A. About the same.

14 Q. You were shown an Exhibit, Defence Exhibit 86, which you

15 indicated was a certificate which allowed you to travel in

16 February 1993. Do you recall that certificate?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is it correct that when you made your travel to see your family

19 there was only one instance when you had to show that

20 certificate?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That was when you crossed from the Republic of the Serbian

23 Krajina into Republika Srpska?

24 A. Yes.

25 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, no other questions at this time. We would

26 reserve further cross-examination.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano?

28 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing arising, your Honour.

Page 7406

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you are excused at this time and you are

2 free to leave. However, you are subject to being recalled so

3 you should make yourself available. Please keep in touch with

4 Miss de Bertodano. She will notify you whether it is necessary

5 to return, probably this week -- is that correct -- or early

6 part of next week?

7 MISS HOLLIS: That is correct, your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You are now free to leave. Thank

9 you very much for coming.

10 (The witness withdrew)

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay or Miss de Bertodano, call your next

12 witness, please.

13 MISS DE BERTODANO: Yes, your Honour. The next witness is Milica

14 Paic.

15 MILICA PAIC, called.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please take the oath that is being

17 handed to you?

18 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare to speak the truth,

19 the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

20 (The witness was sworn)

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

22 Examined by MISS DE BERTODANO

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano?

24 MISS DE BERTODANO: Thank you, your Honour.

25 Q. Witness, is your name Milica Paic?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. What is your ethnic group?

28 A. Serbian.

Page 7407

1 Q. Where do you live?

2 A. I now live in Serbia, Pozarevac.

3 Q. What is your occupation?

4 A. A professor of physical education.

5 Q. Are you teaching at present?

6 A. I started two weeks ago.

7 Q. How long have you lived in Pozarevac?

8 A. Fourteen days.

9 Q. Where were you living before that?

10 A. From '95, August of '95, until fourteen days ago, I lived in

11 Belgrade.

12 Q. Did you teach when you lived in Belgrade?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Where did you live before you lived in Belgrade?

15 A. Before Belgrade I lived in Krajina, in Topusko.

16 Q. Were you teaching when you were living in Topusko?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How long had you lived in Topusko?

19 A. 26 years.

20 Q. How long had you been teaching there for?

21 A. 25 years.

22 Q. What school did you teach in in Topusko?

23 A. In a secondary school, high school, technical school.

24 Q. Did that school have a name?

25 A. Yes, the secondary school Bogdan Orescanin, Topusko.

26 Q. Were you teaching in that school in the school year of 1992 to

27 1993?

28 A. Yes, up until 1995.

Page 7408

1 Q. What was your position within the school?

2 A. I was again a professor. My class was physical education. That

3 is what I did.

4 Q. Did you have any other duties in relation to the students beyond

5 teaching physical education?

6 A. Yes, I was always a class teacher and then I had other duties

7 relating to athletic activities in certain clubs and such.

8 Q. Was a young man called Sinisa Popovic ever in your class?

9 A. Yes, he was. He was a student in my class.

10 Q. Can you remember what year that was?

11 A. He came to Topusko in '92, in the fall, so that was the school

12 year of '92/93, and he was enrolled in the final fourth year of

13 the school.

14 Q. Was that the only year that he spent in your school?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you were teaching during 1992 and 1993 did you take a

17 regular record of your students' attendance?

18 A. Yes, that was one of my duties as a class teacher and of the

19 other colleagues who taught there. They were there to -- they

20 had to record the attendance of the students but it was my

21 particular duty to so.

22 Q. How often would you do that?

23 A. Twice a week, and then at the end of the week we had summaries

24 of the entire attendance of all students throughout the week.

25 Q. Would you notice if a student was absent for any period of time?

26 A. Of course, my colleagues, other teachers, would also note that

27 during their classes.

28 Q. When you were teaching Sinisa Popovic, do you recall whether he

Page 7409

1 was a student who was absent for periods of time or whether he

2 was a student who attended classes regularly?

3 A. Sinisa Popovic was a full-time student. That was his status,

4 but not only his status, but also he was present there at all

5 times. He was one of the -- one with the -- one of the best

6 attendances.

7 Q. How often would you see him during the school week?

8 A. Every day because he lived in the same block, apartment block,

9 where I lived and then I would also see him in the school daily.

10 Q. Would you see him outside school hours?

11 A. Yes. He was also active in sports. The club that I led, he was

12 playing soccer and then, as I said, he lived in the same

13 apartment block. It was a different entrance. He was living

14 with his relatives so I could see him on a daily basis.

15 Q. Did you see him at weekends?

16 A. Sometimes, because we lived close to one another, but I mostly

17 spent my weekends either on the sport fields or fishing, not

18 every weekend, I cannot claim that I have seen him every

19 weekend, but I have.

20 Q. Could Defence Exhibit D84A be put in front of the witness?

21 (Handed). Mrs. Paic, do you recognise that document?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What is it?

24 A. It is a certificate that Sinisa had to pass the balance of exams

25 because the programme of the school in Kladusa where he was

26 enrolled beforehand was different from the one that he attended

27 in Topusko. So he had to pass a balance of exams, and this is

28 the certificate about him having passed those exams.

Page 7410

1 Q. When would he have taken those exams?

2 A. He had a deadline to take those exams. I think it was about

3 four or five months within which they had to do it, but I think

4 it was February or March and that is what it says here too.

5 Q. Of 1993?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Who is that document signed by?

8 A. This document was signed by the school master at the time, Vojo

9 Pavlovic, the principal.

10 Q. Thank you. If that document could be given back to the Registry

11 and if D83A could be put in front of the witness? (Handed).

12 Mrs. Paic, do you recognise that document?

13 A. Yes, this is a certificate about completed fourth, final year

14 and I actually wrote this one up and I signed it as class

15 teacher.

16 Q. Is that your signature on the bottom left-hand side of the

17 document?

18 A. Yes, yes, this is my signature.

19 Q. When was that document created?

20 A. This document was created at the end of June of 1993.

21 Q. That was the end of the fourth, final year of school for Sinisa

22 Popovic?

23 A. Yes, after that he had his final exam.

24 Q. Were there any school holidays, regular school holidays, between

25 the start of the school year in 1992 and the end of December

26 1992?

27 A. Yes, there were some regular school holidays. There was a

28 holiday for St. Nicholas which is 19th December and some others

Page 7411

1 I cannot recall.

2 Q. Were these long holidays or holidays for a single day?

3 A. It is one working day.

4 Q. Were there any holidays during that period for more than one

5 working day?

6 A. As far as I recall, no, but maybe they were linked to a weekend,

7 that one day would be linked to a weekend.

8 Q. If a student of yours wished to have time away from school,

9 whose permission would he have needed to get?

10 A. According to the rules and law of the secondary education, it

11 was me as a class teacher, any leave for up to three days. Up

12 to five days, it would be incumbent on the principal, and then

13 over that it would be the teachers' council. So that was in the

14 law.

15 Q. Do you recall Sinisa Popovic asking for such time off during

16 1992?

17 A. I recall that he once asked for an absence, leave of absence, to

18 go and visit his parents, but I cannot say whether it was '92

19 or '93.

20 Q. Could document D86 be put in front of the witness, please?

21 (Handed). Mrs. Paic, do you recognise that document?

22 A. Yes. I also signed this document.

23 Q. What is the document?

24 A. This is a certificate that Sinisa was given permission to travel

25 from Topusko to Prijedor.

26 Q. Does this relate to the occasion which you recall that he asked

27 for leave of absence to go and see his parents?

28 A. I am not sure if that is because to any student I could give him

Page 7412

1 permission to leave for a day or two, so he would not need this

2 certificate. He needed this, a certificate, so I did not need

3 it, but he needed it so that he could move from Srpska Krajina

4 to Republika Srpska, but when I was giving them permission I did

5 not need any certificates.

6 Q. As far as you recall, is this the only certificate that you gave

7 him of this nature?

8 A. Yes.

9 MISS DE BERTODANO: Thank you. I have nothing further.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Miss Hollis?

11 Cross-examined by MISS HOLLIS

12 Q. Ma'am, during the school year 1992 and 1993, were there

13 Christmas holidays that would have lasted more than a day?

14 A. No, because Christmas was celebrated on January 7th, and that

15 was anyway winter holiday time from December 31st until February

16 1st, the students had a holiday.

17 Q. So between the time 31 December and 1 February, the students

18 were not in class, is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that was the regular holiday.

20 Q. Were there any other times during the school year where they had

21 a similar break?

22 A. No, there were not any holidays but there were breaks in the

23 teaching process. As a result of assessments of the security

24 situation or perhaps due to lack of heating in the winter

25 months, then school would be interrupted for two or three days

26 but these were not holidays, except for the holiday I mentioned,

27 St. Nicholas, and maybe some others I cannot remember.

28 Q. So then, if I understand correctly, there was this break between

Page 7413

1 31st December and 1st February, and there may have been other

2 breaks depending upon the security situation, the weather, such

3 things?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. You mentioned attendance records. Where were those attendance

6 records kept?

7 A. The records of all full time students were kept in a registry

8 which I am sure still exists in Topusko and they can always be

9 looked at. They are kept in safe keeping.

10 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, no further questions at this time. We

11 would ask to reserve cross-examination, if necessary.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Additional questions?

13 MISS DE BERTODANO: No, thank you, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Paic, you are excused now. However, you

15 are subject to being recalled as a witness before the Tribunal.

16 Therefore, you should make yourself available if you are asked

17 to return to give testimony. So keep in touch with

18 Miss de Bertodano and she will tell you whether it is necessary

19 for you to return, but you are now excused. Thank you for

20 coming.

21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

22 (The witness withdrew)

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness,

24 please?

25 MR. KAY: The usher has just gone out of Court, but it is Dragoje

26 Jankovic who will be in open session.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I thought maybe he knew the order. He does not

28 know about the next witness -- he should. He is doing a pretty

Page 7414

1 good job. We will wait a moment.

2 DRAGOJE JANKOVIC, called.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is

4 being handed to you?

5 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

7 (The witness was sworn)

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

9 Examined by MR. KAY

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may begin.

11 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

12 Q. Is your name Dragoje Jankovic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you live in Gornji Orlovci near Prijedor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What is your occupation, Mr. Jankovic?

17 A. My occupation is a technician and I am now working in a

18 firm ----

19 Q. Is that firm in Prijedor?

20 A. --- for administrative affairs, yes.

21 Q. How old are you?

22 A. I am 35.

23 Q. Is your ethnic background that of Serbian?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you related to Dusko Tadic?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. What is that relationship?

28 A. I am his sister's son.

Page 7415

1 Q. I will ask that question again. What is your relationship to

2 Dusko Tadic?

3 A. Cousin, a cousin.

4 Q. Thank you. How long have you known him for?

5 A. In time, you mean?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. We have known each other for a long time.

8 Q. Thank you. Were you close to him in the family?

9 A. No, we were not close, but like normal relatives.

10 Q. Have you ever been mobilized for the JNA or the army of

11 Republika Srpska?

12 A. By the army of Republika Srpska.

13 Q. When was that?

14 A. At the beginning of 1992.

15 Q. Have you done your military service in the JNA?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When was that?

18 A. I cannot remember the year. Just a moment, please. It was in

19 1980, '81.

20 Q. Where were you when Kozarac was attacked in May 1992?

21 A. I was mobilized defending Serb villages, surrounding Kozarac.

22 Q. Whereabouts were you stationed?

23 A. In Gornji Garevci.

24 Q. Are you familiar with maps of the area?

25 A. I am.

26 Q. Perhaps if you would like to look at Exhibit 79? I will change

27 that -- sorry to do this -- to Exhibit 280 which is clearer.

28 Can you see this map which contains Kozarac and Prijedor?

Page 7416

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Are you able to see whereabouts you live on the map in Gornji

3 Orlovci?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Would you be able to indicate that to us if the map is placed on

6 the overhead projector to your right? You will see the steel

7 rod, if you could point on the map whereabouts it is. Hold your

8 pointer on there for a few seconds. Can we have the camera

9 back, please? Are you pointing there to the place where your

10 house would be found?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If again the camera can come back to show more of the map? Can

13 you indicate with that pointer whereabouts you were at Gornji

14 Garevci whilst the attack on Kozarac was taking place?

15 A. [The witness indicated].

16 Q. Thank you. If I can ask the question this way: when were you

17 first stationed at Gornji Garevci?

18 A. I cannot remember the date exactly, but it was during the time

19 of the beginning of the conflict around Kozarac.

20 Q. For how long did you remain stationed at Gornji Garevci?

21 A. Until we were carrying out the assignment entrusted to us, until

22 the Unit was not -- was transferred elsewhere.

23 Q. How long then did this take?

24 A. Until August.

25 Q. From August where did you then go?

26 A. Our Unit was transferred to the region of Gradacac.

27 Q. When were you discharged from your mobilization with the army?

28 A. After the signing of the Dayton Treaty. I do not remember the

Page 7417

1 exact date, but that was at the end of '95 and the beginning

2 of '96.

3 Q. Whilst you were on duty in Gornji Garevci during the conflict in

4 Kozarac, did you come across or see Dusko Tadic at all?

5 A. I saw Dusko Tadic for the first time when I was on leave, then

6 he came to my house.

7 Q. Can you recollect when that was?

8 A. I do not remember the exact date, but it was in May.

9 Q. Can you recollect what the purpose was of him coming to your

10 house?

11 A. Dusko came to see us to leave some of his things which he had

12 saved from his house in Kozarac.

13 Q. At that time where were you stationed precisely?

14 A. The same place that I indicated to you, Gornji Garevci.

15 Q. Were you at home for a period of time?

16 A. That was a short leave and that is when I saw him.

17 Q. At this time when you saw him and you were at home for a short

18 leave, for how long had you been at Gornji Garevci doing your

19 duty there?

20 A. I cannot say exactly, but I said that it was in May. I do not

21 remember how long for.

22 Q. Can you remember when the conflict in Kozarac was?

23 A. Not the date.

24 Q. Was it before the conflict in Kozarac or after the conflict in

25 Kozarac that you saw Dusko Tadic on this occasion?

26 A. This was while the conflict was still ongoing.

27 Q. What do you mean by that? Can you explain that to us?

28 A. This was a time when we were protecting the Serb people and

Page 7418

1 protecting civilians, Muslims who were there, to save people

2 from the conflict and to ensure for them free passage and simply

3 to save the lives of civilians.

4 Q. Was there shelling of Kozarac at this time?

5 A. Yes, a little, for a short time.

6 Q. Can you recollect when there was a great deal of shelling and

7 Kozarac was shelled for some three days?

8 A. For three days -- I do not remember that it lasted for three

9 days. It was brief at the beginning of the conflict itself and

10 it lasted a short while.

11 Q. Thank you. I would like you now to look at three photographs.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I ask the witness, was the visit by

13 Mr. Tadic then after this shelling, this short period of

14 shelling, or before the shelling, in May?

15 A. This was, as I said, while the conflict was still going on and

16 when the Serb people and army was doing its job, that is, to

17 save civilians and their property, because Dusko managed to

18 salvage some of the things from his home just then.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So it was while the shelling was going on, is

20 that what you recall?

21 A. No, no, no, not while the shelling was going on.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will leave it to you lawyers to see if you

23 can come up with a better date and, if not, I will try again at

24 the end.

25 MR. KAY: I will try again, your Honour, thank you. (To the

26 witness): The shelling was not going on at that time then?

27 A. No, it was not going -- when he came to see me there was no

28 shelling.

Page 7419

1 Q. What did he bring when he came to see you?

2 A. He brought some of his things from the house.

3 Q. Can you tell us what they are?

4 A. A refrigerator, some dishes and other things, basic

5 householdware.

6 Q. Did he come on his own or was he with anyone?

7 A. At the time he was with another man.

8 Q. Do you know who that other man was?

9 A. Brane Koncar.

10 Q. Do you know how they travelled to your place with these goods?

11 A. They came in a small vehicle, type Tam, TAM.

12 Q. Do you know whose vehicle it was?

13 A. No, I do not.

14 Q. Do you know who was driving the vehicle?

15 A. I do not know the driver.

16 Q. Were the goods on the vehicle that were left at your place just

17 the property of Dusko Tadic or did the other man leave any goods

18 at your place?

19 A. Just Dusko Tadic.

20 Q. How long were they at your place for?

21 A. They stayed there for sometime, so that later Dusko would come

22 and take what he needed when he found temporary accommodation in

23 Prijedor.

24 Q. Were these goods ever collected?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Were you there when they were collected?

27 A. I was not there then, because he would take them at -- some

28 things at a time when he got his flat in Prijedor.

Page 7420

1 Q. Were you where when he collected any of these things?

2 A. I was on duty.

3 Q. Where on duty?

4 A. On duty, as I said, defending villages by the army, as part of

5 the army.

6 Q. But where were you?

7 A. The place, you mean?

8 Q. Yes, please.

9 A. Gornji Garevci.

10 Q. How long did these goods remain at your place for?

11 A. You mean, in time?

12 Q. Yes, please.

13 A. I cannot remember the date, but anyway the things were taken

14 away and I cannot remember exactly because I was not at home

15 when they were taken away.

16 Q. So when the goods were left at your place by Dusko Tadic, the

17 shelling was not happening in Kozarac at that time?

18 A. No, not at that time.

19 Q. Can you recollect how long after the shelling of Kozarac it was

20 that he came to your place to store these goods?

21 A. A few days afterwards when things settled down a bit.

22 Q. Thank you. I would like you now to look at some photographs --

23 these have been supplied to the Prosecution in advance, your

24 Honour -- and tell me if you recognise the general location

25 where the photographs are taken. I tender them to the Court as

26 D87A, B and C. Do you recognise the place that these

27 photographs show?

28 A. This is Gornji Orlovci and it is the place where Dusko worked at

Page 7421

1 the police checkpoint.

2 MR. KAY: Your Honour, there are three copies here for the Bench.

3 I offer the Court these photographs as Exhibits.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 87A, B and C?

5 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They will be admitted.

7 MR. KAY: Thank you. Your Honour, it is really for illustrative

8 purposes. As we have heard so much about checkpoint Orlovci, it

9 is a way of showing the Court finally photographs of what we

10 have heard so much about.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: At what point in time were these taken?

12 MR. KAY: Very recently, within the last ----

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am sure you will ask the witness -- I mean,

14 you will ask him what it looked like then?

15 MR. KAY: Your Honour, yes. [To the witness]: These photographs show

16 the place where that checkpoint was at Orlovci today, is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes, that is right.

19 Q. Are you able to describe how the checkpoint looked in the times

20 of 1992 during this period of the conflict?

21 A. You want it short or long?

22 Q. Heads or tails!

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: There is a man standing here. Maybe when we

24 come back from the recess he can, kind of, tell us where at

25 least on these photos were the items that we have heard about

26 it.

27 MR. KAY: Your Honour, yes.

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. So we will stand in recess for 20

Page 7422

1 minutes.

2 (4.00 p.m.)

3 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

4 (4.20 p.m.)

5 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Kay, do you happen to know what "Gornji" means?

6 MR. KAY: No, your Honour -- "upper" I am told by those more learned

7 in these matters.

8 JUDGE STEPHEN: Then "Dornji" means lower?

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may continue.

10 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Jankovic, looking at those

11 photographs now that are in front of you, do you see the first

12 one which has a man standing in the middle of the

13 photograph ----

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. --- beside a large tree?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In relation to that photograph, can you tell us where the

18 checkpoint was placed in 1992 after the conflict in Kozarac?

19 A. The checkpoint was placed immediately to the left of this man.

20 Q. So that is slightly further up the road?

21 A. No, it is to the left of the man, towards Prijedor.

22 Q. Thank you. How was the checkpoint structured? What did it

23 consist of?

24 A. It consisted of several, two actually, containers that were

25 protected by sand bags.

26 Q. Were those containers on both sides of the road?

27 A. No, only on this side where this man is.

28 Q. In relation to the large tree we see behind the man, were the

Page 7423

1 containers off the road or on the green verge or on the brown

2 bit which looks like a lay-by?

3 A. They were next to the road in this -- on this brown part which

4 means outside of the main roadway, off the main roadway, where

5 the vehicles are moving.

6 Q. In the second photograph, photograph D87B, again we see the

7 tree, we see a puddle and we see a tractor?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were the two containers side by side running along the road?

10 A. Yes, alongside.

11 Q. Were they in that general area between the tractor we see and

12 the tree or were they somewhere else, if you could tell us from

13 photograph B?

14 A. Yes, in the vicinity of the tractor, next to the tractor.

15 Q. Was there any kind of obstruction in the road to cause vehicles

16 to slow down?

17 A. At that time there were obstacles, the so-called serpentines.

18 Q. Were they some kind of obstacles that traffic had to slow down

19 to get through and pass the checkpoint?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you say "serpentine", do you mean that the traffic had to

22 go through a bending section of obstacles rather than just

23 driving straight along the tarmac?

24 A. You had to avoid them and before that you had signs for speed

25 reduction.

26 Q. Thank you. The third photograph, D87C, is a photograph of the

27 lane that we just see a part of opposite the "no overtaking"

28 sign in photograph A.

Page 7424

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know Slavica Lukic at all?

3 A. Slavica Lukic, no -- maybe Radoslavka Lukic.

4 Q. Yes, Radoslavka Lukic being her full name, do you know her?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us if she lives up that lane we see in

7 photograph C?

8 A. Yes, that is a local village road leading towards her house.

9 Q. How far up that lane in photograph C would you say that she

10 lived?

11 A. I do not know exactly, but, say, up to 250 metres to the right

12 of this road.

13 Q. We can see some buildings in the background of the photograph.

14 Do you know if any of those are her house -- if not, say so?

15 A. Yes, right. Her house is towards the end of this development.

16 That means it is in the middle of it but to the right.

17 Q. We see some roofs there in the background. Do you know if any

18 of those roofs would belong to her house?

19 A. It is not visible from here, but I think the last photograph ---

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. --- on the right-hand side.

22 Q. Is that on the right-hand side of the lane we see?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is her house close to the lane? Does her garden come up to the

25 lane?

26 A. Her house is immediately adjacent to the road.

27 Q. Thank you. Did you used to travel through checkpoint Orlovci

28 during this period after the conflict in Kozarac?

Page 7425

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How often would that be?

3 A. I passed when I was free, when I had leave to go from my Unit.

4 That means that would be the time when we were moved to the new

5 post in Gradacac.

6 Q. Did you pass by through that checkpoint on more than one

7 occasion?

8 A. Yes, multiple times.

9 Q. Before your Unit went to Gradacac, did you ever see Dusko Tadic

10 there at that checkpoint at Orlovci?

11 A. Can you please repeat the question?

12 Q. Before your Unit and you went to Gradacac, did you ever see

13 Dusko Tadic at that checkpoint at Orlovci?

14 A. I did see him.

15 Q. Do you know how many times?

16 A. Several times.

17 Q. Do you know what his job was at that checkpoint, who he was

18 working for?

19 A. I knew that he was controlling traffic.

20 Q. Was that for the military or the police?

21 A. At that time he was with the police.

22 Q. Was this before or after he had delivered those goods to your

23 place in Gornji Orlovci?

24 A. Well, that was before because the point had existed there

25 before, and so when he came to my house he was in a police

26 uniform.

27 Q. Do you know what he was doing then at that time when he came to

28 your house?

Page 7426

1 A. I do not know, but I know that he was with the police.

2 Q. When you say in a police uniform, what do you mean by that? Can

3 you describe it to us?

4 A. That police uniform was blue.

5 Q. Do you know how long he had been working in the police when he

6 came to your house at that time?

7 A. I do not know how much time he had been with them.

8 Q. Do you know at that time that he came to your house at Gornji

9 Orlovci to leave his things whether that was a period when he

10 was working at checkpoint Orlovci?

11 A. Yes, that was the period when he worked at Orlovci.

12 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.

13 Cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, cross-examination?

15 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

16 Q. What is your father's name?

17 A. Mirko.

18 Q. Is that his name or his nickname?

19 A. His name is Mirko and they call him "Miro".

20 Q. Your mother's name?

21 A. Gina.

22 Q. Do you have any brothers and sisters?

23 A. I have a sister.

24 Q. What is her name?

25 A. Milena Jankovic and her married name, Basic.

26 Q. Do you have a brother?

27 A. No.

28 Q. When were you mobilized in 1992? You said in your evidence the

Page 7427

1 partly part, can you tell us when that was?

2 A. I cannot remember the exact date.

3 Q. Are you able to remember the month?

4 A. April.

5 Q. Was this before the takeover of Prijedor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you were first mobilized where were you stationed?

8 A. I was first stationed in Garevci.

9 Q. What were your duties there?

10 A. I was on assignment in an infantry unit.

11 Q. Were you patrolling any area or did you control traffic or can

12 you tell us what you were doing?

13 A. We were on the assignment of protecting the people and

14 preventing conflict.

15 Q. At this stage was there any conflict going on in the opstina of

16 Prijedor?

17 A. At that time there was no conflict. I was mobilized.

18 Q. What was the name of your Unit?

19 A. 5th Light.

20 Q. Who was your Commander?

21 A. I cannot answer that question.

22 Q. Why can you not answer that question?

23 A. I have not been authorised to do so.

24 Q. Who has not authorised you to do so?

25 A. I think that is something I cannot say.

26 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I ask that the witness be directed to

27 answer the question.

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

Page 7428

1 MR. KAY: There is no objection, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you need to answer that question. It

3 relates to the issues in this case and so you should respond to

4 the question, and you are directed to respond to the question.

5 THE WITNESS: You are thinking of the Commander of the battalion?

6 MR. NIEMANN: I am thinking of the Commander of your Unit.

7 A. Krsic Slobodan.

8 Q. Can you tell us some of the names of the people that were in

9 your Unit?

10 A. Huskic, Dragan.

11 Q. Can you remember any other people that were in your Unit at any

12 time during 1992?

13 A. Dusko Matijas.

14 Q. Any others?

15 A. Slobodan Huskic.

16 Q. How many men were in your Unit?

17 A. I do not know.

18 Q. Can you give us a rough idea of how many people were in the

19 Unit?

20 A. Up to 100, 110, but I do not know the exact figure.

21 Q. What is the rank of Slobodan Krsic, your Commander?

22 A. He was Captain.

23 Q. Where was he from?

24 A. I do not know.

25 Q. Do you know what nationality or ethnic group he was?

26 A. I do not know.

27 Q. Was he a Muslim, do you think?

28 A. I do not think so.

Page 7429

1 Q. Do you think he might have been Croatian?

2 A. I said I do not know what nationality he was.

3 Q. At the commencement of the attack on Kozarac, the shelling of

4 Kozarac, where was it precisely that your Unit was located?

5 A. In Gornji Garevci.

6 Q. What part of Gornji Garevci?

7 A. The road that passes through the village of Garevci.

8 Q. Which road is that?

9 A. It is the road separating Garevci from Kozarusa.

10 Q. How far was it from the main Banja Luka road, Banja Luka to

11 Prijedor road?

12 A. Gornji Garevci?

13 Q. No, the place where you were stationed at the time of the attack

14 on Kozarac.

15 A. I do not know exactly. I did not measure it.

16 Q. Can you assist us by giving us some idea?

17 A. Five or six kilometres from Prijedor.

18 Q. Did you stay in that place all the time during the attack on

19 Kozarac or did you move about, did your Unit move about?

20 A. It did not move away from that place until our transfer.

21 Q. So you stayed in exactly the same spot, did you, on the road?

22 A. Not on the road. I said the road separating Kozarusa from

23 Gornji Garevci.

24 Q. What I am trying to find out is what were you doing during the

25 attack on Kozarac precisely? What were you doing?

26 A. When the conflict broke out, our task was to protect the Serb

27 people and to pull out the Muslims from the conflict because

28 there were many civilians, women and children.

Page 7430

1 Q. These are Muslim women and children?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Pulling them out from the conflict, what does that entail?

4 A. It meant saving them from getting killed.

5 Q. Did it mean removing them from the area, by any chance?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You tell us what you were doing, especially to the Muslim women

8 and children?

9 A. Nothing, we were just saving them.

10 Q. Saving them -- how were you doing that?

11 A. Simply, our task was at that time to provide safe passage for

12 people who were in vehicles and otherwise heading for Prijedor.

13 Q. But the area was being attacked by the Serb forces, was it not?

14 A. No. We were defending ourselves then, but we had to save the

15 civilians so that they would not get killed.

16 Q. But were not their Serb forces dropping shells on Kozarac and

17 the surrounding area?

18 A. That is true, but our task was to save the civilians.

19 Q. But would not the best way to save the civilians have been to

20 stop the shelling?

21 A. That is not in my power.

22 Q. So you were protecting these people from the shelling, were you?

23 A. Not from the shelling. We were protecting them in that conflict

24 so that they would not get killed, children and the civilians.

25 Q. What were you doing with the men, the Muslim men?

26 A. Those who were armed were given over to the authorities in

27 Prijedor.

28 Q. What happened to them when they were handed over to the

Page 7431

1 authorities in Prijedor?

2 A. Afterwards they were interrogated and then what happened next, I

3 do not know.

4 Q. But these men were not armed, were they?

5 A. There were those who were armed.

6 Q. I see. Now tell us what you did with the men that were not

7 armed, the Muslim men that were not armed?

8 A. We also -- we acted towards them in the same way that we treated

9 the women and children.

10 Q. That was to direct their traffic towards Prijedor, if I heard

11 you correctly?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it not a fact that the women, children and men were put on

14 buses?

15 A. It is true, they went on buses.

16 Q. They were taken to a number of centres, were they not, one in

17 Prijedor at a place called Keraterm, one at Omarska and one in

18 Trnopolje, were they not?

19 A. I am aware only that they were driven to Prijedor.

20 Q. Do you know a person called Rade Strika?

21 A. I do not.

22 Q. Tomislav Stojakovic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Brane Balte?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Goran Grabic?

27 A. No.

28 Q. Do you know a place, a coffee shop, called "Kod Zike"?

Page 7432

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know the area called Velika Kladusa?

3 A. No.

4 Q. When you say that Dule Tadic brought the goods, refrigerator and

5 so forth, to your house, he came with a Tam truck, did he?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How long did he stay there?

8 A. Briefly, to unload the things.

9 Q. You said that the shelling of Kozarac only lasted a very short

10 time, was that about a day, was it, or less?

11 A. It was in one day but it did not last long.

12 Q. Can you help us a bit in terms of time? Was it half a day,

13 three-quarters of a day?

14 A. Maybe three-quarters of a day, but with gaps and for a short

15 time.

16 Q. When Dule Tadic collected the goods from your house, I think you

17 said you were not there at the time, is that correct, or were

18 you there?

19 A. I said I was not there because he would take what he needed to

20 his temporary accommodation in Prijedor.

21 Q. He may have taken it there, but you do not know yourself exactly

22 where he took it? He could have taken it somewhere else in

23 Prijedor?

24 A. No, he just needed it for the apartment that he got in Prijedor

25 on a temporary basis.

26 Q. But you are assuming that is what he did with it, are you not,

27 because you do not know?

28 A. My mother and my father can confirm this.

Page 7433

1 Q. But I am asking you what you can confirm.

2 A. I can just say that he took those things for himself personally,

3 for his own needs.

4 Q. You would not argue with me, would you, if I said to you it is

5 possible that some of the goods were taken to some place in

6 Prijedor and others were taken to another place? You do not

7 know, do you? He could have taken them to two places?

8 A. It is possible, because I did not participate in the

9 transportation of the goods.

10 Q. I should have asked you, do you know a place called Velika

11 Kladusa?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know a place called Kozarusa?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where is that in relation to where you lived?

16 A. I lived in Gornji Orlovci. Then comes the village of Garevci

17 and then Kozarusa.

18 Q. How far would that be in terms of kilometres, approximately?

19 A. From my place of residence?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. About two, two and a half kilometres.

22 Q. Are you related to Dusan Jankovic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know Dusan Jankovic?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. What was he doing during 1992, do you know?

27 A. I just know that he was in the police, but I do not know what

28 his post was.

Page 7434

1 Q. How well do you know him?

2 A. Little.

3 Q. Have you seen any of these proceedings on television, the

4 proceedings of this Court?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Have you discussed the evidence that you are going to give with

7 any of the witnesses to this case?

8 A. No.

9 Q. With any members of the family?

10 A. No, I have not.

11 Q. You said that Brane Koncar attended your house with Dule Tadic,

12 is that right? Do you remember saying that?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. How was he dressed on the day?

15 A. Brane Koncar?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. He was in civilian clothes at the time.

18 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

20 Re-Examined by MR. KAY

21 Q. The name "Jankovic", is that a common name, do you know?

22 A. It is a surname.

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Jankovic is a surname.

25 Q. Are there many people called ----

26 A. It is frequent, quite frequent.

27 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

Page 7435

1 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to the witness being

3 permanently excused?

4 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, there is.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you are free to leave at this time.

6 However, you may be recalled to give testimony before the

7 Tribunal, so you should make yourself available. Keep in touch

8 with Mr. Kay and, if it is necessary for you to return to give

9 additional testimony, then he will be contacted. Will you do

10 that?

11 THE WITNESS: Certainly I will. Yes.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You are now excused. You are free

13 to leave. Thank you for coming.

14 (The witness withdrew)

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness?

16 MR. KAY: The next witness is Ljubomir Tadic, your Honour.

17 ^^ LJUBOMIR TADIC, called.

18 Examined by MR. KAY

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is

20 being given to you?

21 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

23 (The witness was sworn)

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated. Mr. Kay,

25 you may begin.

26 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

27 Q. Is your name Ljubomir Tadic?

28 A. Yes, I am Ljubomir Tadic.

Page 7436

1 Q. Is your name abbreviated often to "Ljubo"?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Whereabouts do you live, Mr. Tadic?

4 A. Since 1973 I live in Banja Luka.

5 Q. Whereabouts in Banja Luka, if you could give us the full

6 address?

7 A. Josif Pancic Street, No. 6.

8 Q. How old are you, Mr. Tadic?

9 A. 43.

10 Q. Born on 4th February 1953, is that right?

11 A. Yes, in Kozarac.

12 Q. You have no need to lean forward to the microphone. You can

13 stay where you are and it will pick up the sound.

14 A. All right.

15 Q. You are the brother of Dusko Tadic, is that right?

16 A. Yes, older brother.

17 Q. The other brothers are Mladen and Stojan, is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You are also the son of Ostoja Tadic and Staka Tadic who are the

20 names of your parents?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are you a married man?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you have children?

25 A. Three sons.

26 Q. Their ages are what?

27 A. The oldest, Nenad, was born in '79, Vladimir in 1980 and

28 Aleksandar in '92.

Page 7437

1 Q. Have you done any service in the former JNA?

2 A. Yes, but not a complete term of duty.

3 Q. Can you tell us the period of service?

4 A. 1971.

5 Q. What was the reason for not completing the service?

6 A. I had some health problems.

7 Q. What were they?

8 A. Kidneys and some other things, but at the time -- there was an

9 image that you could avoid service if you had connections like

10 father or something, so I was released before my time was up.

11 Q. What age did you leave school?

12 A. I did not understand the question.

13 Q. What age did you leave your education, your schooling education?

14 A. I left school for apprentice as a welder.

15 Q. What age were you when you finished that?

16 A. 18 or 19.

17 Q. Can you tell us the history of your jobs? First of all, you

18 have told us about being a welder, but was that your first job

19 when you finished your education?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What was your first job?

22 A. My first job was a professional karate between '73 and '77.

23 Q. Was this before or after you had been invalided from the JNA?

24 A. I was doing karate before and after, and I started in '66, '67

25 as a very young man and I continued to do it to date.

26 Q. Is it correct that your brother Mladen is also a karate expert?

27 A. We all inherited it, so to speak, from him because he was an

28 athlete. In '65, '66, he did it in Belgrade and then he moved

Page 7438

1 to Banja Luka. So that we took it over from him. He left to

2 Germany in '73 and I took over the club and that is how I got

3 into it.

4 Q. Your brother Dusko was also a karate expert, is that right?

5 A. He was not doing it as much until he went to Belgrade and then

6 he joined a karate club at a friend of mine's, Zika Vukojevic.

7 Q. But the other brother, Stojan, is it right that he is not a

8 karate expert?

9 A. He is not but in '69 he did train a little in Belgrade while he

10 was studying.

11 Q. You have told us that you were a karate coach from 1973 to

12 1977. What was your employment afterwards in 1977?

13 A. In '77 my wife was pregnant and so I had to take a more serious

14 approach to things and then got employed at Cajevic.

15 Q. Is that a TV factory in Banja Luka?

16 A. Yes, but I did not work on television, I worked as a welder.

17 There was -- I had gone through a special training for welding

18 with aluminium. That was something special.

19 Q. For how long did you work then as a welder there?

20 A. I worked for two years, but I remained at the company.

21 I changed my job. They needed a person who could work on

22 supplies, a unit, and they needed somebody who was very active

23 and who could move fast.

24 Q. So did you work as a welder then in that factory until 1980?

25 A. Yes, yes.

26 Q. Then from 1980 did you work as a buyer for the same factory?

27 A. Yes, I went and did -- went through school and I got

28 qualifications as a salesman, and I passed all the exams for all

Page 7439

1 the driving licences so that I could drive different types of

2 vehicles.

3 Q. For what period then did you work as a buyer for that factory in

4 Banja Luka?

5 A. From 1980 until 1990. I am sorry, from -- yes, from 1980 to

6 1990.

7 Q. What happened then in 1990 in relation to your employment?

8 A. Rudi Cajavec was declining as a company and then there was an

9 offer, there was surplus, whoever wanted to go into private

10 business would get 24 months worth of salary. Then I talked to

11 my wife and we decided to do that.

12 Q. So during this period that you were working at Rudi Cajavec, is

13 it right that your wife was also employed by the same company?

14 A. Yes, in the same company but it was a different department of

15 the same company, Cajavec.

16 Q. Did she also take redundancy as you did with two years salary?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. With that two years salary did you open a general store in Banja

19 Luka?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Just so that we know what that means, what kind of store was

22 that, the size of it and what sorts of products were sold?

23 A. There were food products and non-food products, so it was mixed

24 goods.

25 Q. Did you have a shop?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Did both you and your wife work there?

28 A. Yes.

Page 7440

1 Q. Does that business still trade today?

2 A. No.

3 Q. When did it cease trading?

4 A. In '92.

5 Q. Do you have work today?

6 A. No.

7 Q. During the period that you have spoken of after you finished

8 your job as a karate coach in 1977, did you continue coaching

9 karate on an amateur basis?

10 A. Yes, I trained at Karate Club Borac. I continued to do that.

11 Q. Did you have a part-time job during various periods working as a

12 karate coach in those last 20 years?

13 A. Yes, I was paid in the evening hours for conducting training.

14 I had a licence so I could do exams all the way up until the

15 black belt, and when some other clubs called me I would go there

16 and I would be paid for that.

17 Q. So the level that you reached within karate was that as a black

18 belt?

19 A. Yes, Fourth Dan which was the highest at that time in Bosnia and

20 it is also the highest one in the Republika Srpska.

21 Q. So that we also understand this, your brother Mladen, what level

22 did he reach in karate?

23 A. He had a club in Germany in Munich and he had Fifth Dan, that is

24 a step above.

25 Q. Your other brother Dusko, what level did he reach?

26 A. Third Dan.

27 Q. Of the black belt?

28 A. Yes. He was a master.

Page 7441

1 Q. Were you brought up as a child in Kozarac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was your brother Dusko also brought up there in the family home

4 in Kozarac?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did there come a time, however, when you left Kozarac to live in

7 Banja Luka?

8 A. Yes, in 1973. I already said that.

9 Q. Since then, 1973, have you ever returned to live in Kozarac, and

10 by that I mean live with your own property, your own house?

11 A. No, but I would come often with my family.

12 Q. So the place where you have lived ever since has been in Banja

13 Luka, is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How frequently have you visited Kozarac in that 25 years or so

16 or 23 years since you moved to live in Banja Luka?

17 A. In the first three or four years when I moved to Banja Luka

18 I could not adjust very well to that life. I liked Kozarac and

19 I would come every weekend to Kozarac. I would return.

20 Q. Your family home in Kozarac has been always in Marsala Tita

21 Street, is that right?

22 A. Yes, No. 36.

23 Q. That house was of a fairly small size originally. Is it right

24 that it has been extended over the years?

25 A. Yes, our father was extending it and he was building -- by

26 extending it he was building a bigger one.

27 Q. I would like you to look at Prosecution Exhibit 300. (Handed).

28 Do you recognise this as being a picture of the family home in

Page 7442

1 Kozarac taken in February of this year?

2 A. Yes, but this house, the upper part was built '70 something --

3 no, I am sorry, before our father died in '89.

4 Q. Perhaps if ----

5 A. He did all this himself, except for the business down here, the

6 business, except for Dusan's business premises.

7 Q. Perhaps if that could be put on the monitor to your side so that

8 we can see it. If you would like to turn to your right,

9 Mr. Tadic, and indicate certain parts of the house to us with

10 that steel pointer. Originally the house was the section from

11 the left to the middle, is that right? If you could just

12 indicate the original house that you spoke of.

13 A. [The witness indicated]. This part existed only. Afterwards

14 this part was built on, but it was not completed and at first

15 the house did not have an upper floor.

16 Q. When was the upper floor built?

17 A. Our father did that. He did it with his own savings. He was a

18 retired officer. He had one of the highest pensions on the

19 territory of the municipality of Prijedor, and he also raised

20 certain loans. As a veteran he could get these loans and he

21 himself built it, not with the resources of us children, but

22 with his own resources.

23 Q. The section on the right-hand side, if you could just put the

24 pointer on that, when was that section built?

25 A. This was built, completed in 1990 and the shop was opened, but

26 material began to be collected in '88, '89. Dusko was

27 collecting the bricks, the tiles, the wood.

28 Q. Is there a section of this house which is today a part of the

Page 7443

1 house that is in your name, that is known to belong to you?

2 A. After our father's death or actually before he died he told us

3 which part belonged to whom and told us not to quarrel over it;

4 when he died that we should state clearly what belonged to whom,

5 as he said it, before the lawyer, and that if you are good

6 children that is what you will do, he said. He said the central

7 part of the building should belong to me. This front part was

8 not like this. There was just a window. It was a dwelling

9 place. This part belonged to Stojan and this left incomplete

10 part was given to Mladen, because he was in Germany and we

11 thought that he would find it easier to complete it while those

12 of us who were left in Bosnia had less resources. The upper

13 part which was completed before his death, he said that it

14 should belong to Dusko as he was the youngest and he would stay

15 on to live with our mother in Kozarac, but that a part of this

16 should definitely belong to our mother just in case. Simply

17 that was the kind of man he was. He wanted everyone to know

18 what belonged to him. Each of these parts of buildings has a

19 separate entrance from the other side.

20 Q. What year did your father die?

21 A. April 23rd 1989.

22 Q. The section we see on the right-hand side, can you tell us when

23 that started to be built?

24 A. After our father's death, but Dusko already had the material

25 ready and he asked our father whether he could build it and our

26 father said to me: "Ljubo, do you agree that we give this part

27 of the land to Dusko because he wants to start a business?" and

28 I said I personally have nothing against, let him build three

Page 7444

1 floors if he likes, if he has the money to do it.

2 Q. First of all, that section on the right-hand side, if we can

3 talk about the ground floor, can you tell us when work started

4 to build that section?

5 A. On the ground floor, this part?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. The second half of '79, after the death of our father.

8 Q. Is that '79 or '89?

9 A. I am sorry, '89.

10 Q. The upper part that we see in red brick, can you tell us when

11 that was started to be built?

12 A. When he completed the lower part -- I remember it was customary

13 for this part which had a concrete slab and it was customary for

14 all the people, all the neighbours, to join in and give a hand

15 to complete it. Then we would roast a pig or a lamb on the

16 spit, people would bring drinks and the people participating

17 would not charge anything. They were hosted by the family, and

18 the same would happen when the roof was being put up.

19 Q. The bit on the ground floor, was it always intended that that

20 would be a cafe?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was that to be a business run by your brother Dusko Tadic?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. The upper section on the first floor, was that to be living

25 accommodation?

26 A. For a time he wanted it for living there, and then once he said

27 he perhaps might open a discotheque there. Anyway, the inside

28 was never completed. To this day it has not been completed of

Page 7445

1 the upper part.

2 Q. Your brother Stojan who has been mentioned and has that section

3 with the small window we see in the middle, did he live in

4 Kozarac?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What has been his work over the years of the 1980s until, let us

7 say, 1992?

8 A. He worked in Veletekstil, a large firm, and he was a salesman

9 for that firm. Afterwards he joined a firm from Srenjanin also

10 as a travelling salesman, but he lived in Banja Luka.

11 Q. When did he stop that work as a salesman?

12 A. When the war started in the former Bosnia-Herzegovina some of

13 his goods were in Bosanski Samac with Mirza, a friend of his who

14 was also a salesman and who had a shop there. So that all those

15 goods were there and when his goods were robbed so was Stojan's.

16 Q. Does he work as a painter, an artist today presently?

17 A. He always engaged in painting, and now his daughter has

18 graduated in Belgrade. She probably got it from her father.

19 She graduated from the school of applied arts, and she is going

20 to go on to the art academy now.

21 Q. By the time we get to 1992 is the section on the right-hand side

22 of the photograph, which was where Dusko had his cafe, that was

23 working as a business, is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On the left-hand side, the part that was unfinished that was

26 given to brother Mladen, was that working as a bar in 1992?

27 A. No.

28 Q. Has that bar, which is today a bar, been opened by your brother

Page 7446

1 Mladen after 1992 at a much later date?

2 A. He opened it in '90 -- he worked on it in '94. After Dusko's

3 arrest, after some time he too had to leave Germany and he came

4 to Kozarac.

5 Q. The middle section which you said was yours and originally had a

6 small window, had that been converted into shop premises before

7 or after the conflict?

8 A. I worked on it for several months because I did not have that

9 much money. I worked on it slowly. I was working in Banja

10 Luka. I had a shop there. Then I would come on Saturdays and

11 Sundays, on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, to finish these premises

12 and I opened it maybe 15 days before the outbreak of the

13 conflict in Kozarac.

14 Q. What did you open that central section which we see in our

15 photograph as in 1992?

16 A. I signed a contract with the Banja Luka brewery and I opened a

17 beer discount shop.

18 MR. KAY: Thank you. Your Honour, that is probably a convenient

19 moment.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10.00 a.m.

21 (5.30 p.m.)

22 (The court adjourned until the following day).

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