Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7447

1 Wednesday, 23rd October, 1996.

2 (10.00 a.m.)

3 (Open session)

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Before you bring in the witness, we thought

5 that we would talk with counsel about final submissions. We are

6 getting close to the end of the trial. Hopefully, the Defence

7 will be finished this week, if not next week; probably it will

8 carry over to next week. Then we will recess for a week and

9 then the Prosecution will present its rebuttal. What the Judges

10 wanted were written submissions, if you can submit them, but

11 certainly oral closing arguments. We were trying to come up

12 with possible dates.

13 I would like you to just think about what we are

14 thinking about, and then discuss it with each other and tell us

15 either at the end of today or tomorrow. The courtroom will be

16 in use by the other Trial Chamber on 19th and 20th November. So

17 there is a possibility for us to begin closing arguments on

18 Thursday, November 21st, or if counsel would not be ready by

19 that date, we could begin the following week, either on Monday,

20 25th or Tuesday, 26th.

21 I do not know how much time you think that you would

22 need for your closing arguments. We want to encourage you to

23 make them as full as possible, that is for sure, but that is

24 just what we were thinking. The Prosecution had said you

25 thought you would need a week for your rebuttal. So if we

26 finish up with the Defence case by 30th of this month, that

27 would be two days next week, then we would be in recess until 6th

28 or so November, is that right? Then if the Prosecution was to

Page 7448

1 begin that week, on Thursday, it may be a little difficult, only

2 because it is towards the end of the week, but if you began that

3 Thursday and finished up by 15th -- I have a calendar before me,

4 so if you do not have a calendar, just kind of think about it --

5 if you could give your submissions beginning November 21st, that

6 would be good. If not, it would be the following week, but we

7 certainly need to finish submissions -- the absolute latest --

8 would be November 29th, but it would be our desire to finish up on

9 28th November.

10 So think about how you think you could proceed, and

11 let us know this evening or tomorrow. It depends upon how much

12 time the Prosecution needs but, as I say, if we spent two days

13 of next week on the Defence case and finish on 30th, then we

14 could begin with the Prosecution's case either on November 7th

15 or the following week, but the only problem with beginning the

16 following week is -- that is the week of 11th -- that the Trial

17 Chamber 1 needs the courtroom on 19th and 20th.

18 So, let us know and we will see if we can schedule

19 something. OK. Miss Hollis?

20 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. One other issue about closing

21 argument: will the Judges allow the Prosecution and the Defence

22 to have the option of having more than one person argue for

23 closing argument?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not have a problem. No.

25 MISS HOLLIS: So that would be an option we would have?

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. We want the fullest closing arguments as

27 possible. However it is done is up to you, but it has been a

28 long trial and there is a lot of evidence that we have received

Page 7449

1 but, yes, you may do. So more than one counsel for each side

2 may give closing arguments.

3 Would you bring in the witness, please?

4 LJUBOMIR TADIC, recalled

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Judge Stephen is reminding me to encourage you

6 to give us as much analysis or schedules or outlines that you

7 wish. Make it easy!

8 Mr. Tadic, you understand that you are still under the

9 oath that you took yesterday to tell the truth?

10 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you. Mr. Kay, you may begin.

12 Examined by MR. KAY, continued.

13 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Tadic, yesterday at the end of the day you told us about

15 opening your business in part of the family home in Kozarac.

16 What exactly was your business?

17 A. It was the sale of alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages on a

18 wholesale basis.

19 Q. When did you open that business?

20 A. I opened it -- I remember very well -- 15 days, roughly, ahead

21 of the outbreak of the conflict in Kozarac.

22 Q. When you opened your business had you stocked it with beverages?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In those 15 days that it was open, was it trading every day?

25 A. Almost every day. I sold very quickly my stocks that I had

26 brought in by truck.

27 Q. Who was working in the shop doing the selling to customers?

28 A. I would come, and the goods were brought in by truck from the

Page 7450

1 brewery because I had a contract with the Banja Luka brewery and

2 it was their duty to supply me with beer, and the other

3 beverages I purchased myself in Banja Luka, and I transported

4 them by van.

5 Q. When was the last day that that business traded in Kozarac?

6 A. The last day I was on Wednesday 20th in Banja Luka, and my wife

7 called the brewery up and they told me that beer would be

8 delivered the next day on 21st May.

9 Q. Did you go to the shop on 21st May?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. Did you receive a delivery on that day?

12 A. I came roughly an hour and a half ahead of the arrival of the

13 truck. I came by bus.

14 Q. On that day how much was delivered by the brewery to the shop?

15 A. 300 crates.

16 Q. Was that of beer or beer and soft drinks or just soft drinks?

17 A. Only beer, 300 crates.

18 Q. Did you trade after 21st May?

19 A. Before that I had received three truck loads of beer from the

20 Banja Luka brewery and, for instance, I would get one or two

21 truck loads in a week and it would sell in two or three days,

22 because the local people, there were many cafes in Kozarac, and

23 it suited their interests to buy from me, simply because the

24 price of the beer was far lower than if they went to Banja Luka

25 or Prijedor. Then they would have additional transportation

26 costs, and they were able to purchase from me at a slightly

27 higher price than the factory price in the brewery.

28 Q. Did you go into the shop on 22nd May?

Page 7451

1 A. No.

2 Q. Why not?

3 A. On 21st May with the truck of the Banja Luka brewery I went to

4 Banja Luka about 3.00, 3.30, and I carried with me my TV, a

5 colour TV, belonging to Dusko Tadic and a small, dark terrier --

6 he was in a box -- and I put all that on the truck and with the

7 driver I went to Banja Luka.

8 Q. Why were you taking the television and the small terrier?

9 A. It was Dusko's, both the terrier and the TV set, and the family

10 was in Banja Luka.

11 Q. So it was for the family in Banja Luka that you were taking the

12 terrier and the ----

13 A. Yes, for Dusko's wife and mother and children.

14 Q. Why could you not return to the shop on 22nd May?

15 A. On 21st, when I left for Banja Luka, I gave Dusko the key of my

16 business premises, and I told him if he needed anything, some

17 beer for his cafe, be free to take it and if somebody would come

18 -- I did not have people to work there on a regular basis;

19 I had a boy to help me unload -- but I said if anyone comes to

20 buy some drinks, sell it to them. He knew the price and so on.

21 On 22nd, and I told him I would come on the 22nd, for us to sell

22 all that over the weekend.

23 However, the next day when I got up I heard that

24 everything was blocked, that it was not possible to head in the

25 direction of Kozarac or Prijedor, nor was it possible to go from

26 Prijedor to Banja Luka, that Kozarac was under blockade, a

27 conflict had still not broken out, but that there was a

28 possibility of a conflict.

Page 7452

1 Q. The premises next door to you were Dusko Tadic's cafe, when did

2 that start trading as a cafe, can you remember?

3 A. It started trading, I think, at the end of 1990.

4 Q. In that period from 1990 to ----

5 A. Or '91.

6 Q. In that period until 1992, were all ethnic groups in Kozarac

7 welcome to go into that cafe?

8 A. Yes, they would come to the cafe. I would come often because

9 before I opened my shop I had to transfer the living space into

10 business premises, so I had to have the plans, I had to get

11 authorisation, so that I would come often. I had to go to the

12 Prijedor municipality, to the authorities, to get permission for

13 this. When the cafe started working many people would come,

14 local people, people of Kozarac, many whom I knew.

15 Q. Was it a cafe where only Serbs were welcome?

16 A. No, there were very few Serbs in Kozarac, maybe 10 families in

17 the centre of Kozarac. So that 95 per cent of the population of

18 Kozarac were Muslims. There were a few Croats also.

19 Q. Were there any Muslim employees who worked at your brother's

20 cafe?

21 A. There were several waiters. I think the son of Adil Jakupovic

22 was working there, the son of Kahrimanovic, the former director

23 of the elementary school in Kozarac and the last waiter working

24 there was a fair boy. He was a Muslim too. Also in the

25 meantime there was a Serb working too.

26 Q. What was Dusko Tadic's relationship like with the other people

27 in Kozarac in this period from 1991/92?

28 A. Dusko had continued to have good relations with a large number

Page 7453

1 of local people, and especially with the younger people who

2 would come to his cafe. The older people were not such frequent

3 visitors. It was not a restaurant. It was a nice, modern cafe

4 that young people came to, and with most people he had very good

5 relations, with the older ones too because he had a coffee

6 making machine for espresso coffee so that older people would

7 like to have a cup of coffee outside or inside in the morning --

8 a machine that others did not have at the time.

9 Q. During this same period, were you regularly visiting Kozarac?

10 A. Yes, I said that I went to Kozarac in the period 1991 and '92.

11 I went in '89 and before as well, but because of this business

12 I had, I had to go frequently. I would take Friday off,

13 Saturday, Sunday, when I was working on my business premises.

14 When I completed building works, then I would come on Thursday,

15 Friday, or on some other days, depending on when deliveries were

16 due.

17 Q. In the period of '91 to '92 was Kozarac the same in its

18 atmosphere as it had been in former years that we have heard

19 about in Court as being a happy place?

20 A. Well you see, Kozarac is a nice place. I love it. I grew up

21 there. I live there. I spent my childhood there. I like to go

22 there now. My children like to go there. Something draws us to

23 go there and I will always be going there, regardless who will

24 be living there. My mother is still alive and my brother comes,

25 and even when they are gone I will go on going there because it

26 was really a nice place to live in.

27 Q. But did that atmosphere change in 1991/1992?

28 A. Well, after the death of our father in '89, soon after that, one

Page 7454

1 could feel certain changes, especially in 1991 it was quite

2 pronounced. Simply some of those people -- I personally was not

3 insulted by anyone, but one could feel a distance. Some of them

4 would not answer when we bid them "good day". I was surprised.

5 How come? We had never had any disputes or quarrels. But one

6 could live there still in that period, but Dusko -- I was not

7 familiarised with that immediately, Dusko did not tell me

8 straightaway, but he told me later, two months later after this

9 letter, he got a threatening letter. He did not tell anyone

10 straightaway. Afterwards he said he did not know what to do,

11 whether he should tell someone or not. He did not know what to

12 do, but he told me about this letter which he had received.

13 I may be wrong in the exact date. I think it was on 5th

14 September 1990. I remember the text of the letter. I saw the

15 letter. It was on an ordinary piece of paper, and it said:

16 "The holy war, a brother for the jihad, the holy war", and

17 underneath: "We cannot wait any longer, you must move out

18 within three months otherwise we will kill your family, your children,

19 both children and you. There is not a chance for you to

20 survive", something to that effect. It said: "Your wife has

21 proven to be one of us", something to that effect and signed,

22 "Young Muslims, SDA, Kozarac", and there was something in

23 Arabic.

24 Q. Had you ever had any experience of anything like this before,

25 any previous threats in such a way?

26 A. No.

27 Q. What effect did this have on your brother, this letter?

28 A. Probably he was afraid. He was wondering what to do. You know

Page 7455

1 how it is, the Serbs were a minority in Kozarac. I think the

2 ratio was 95 per cent Muslims and five per cent Serbs and others

3 -- of course there was fear.

4 Q. Have you been a member of any political parties?

5 A. I was a member of the Communist Party.

6 Q. But were many people members of the Communist Party?

7 A. I was a member of the Communist Party from 1978 and this was a

8 mass movement because there was no other party. More or less in

9 all work organisations it was required that we join and those

10 who did not, they were looked upon as being ethnically coloured.

11 Q. In relation to other political parties, have you ever been a

12 member of the SDS?

13 A. When the Communist Party collapsed or, rather, when Yugoslavia

14 fell apart, I cannot remember exactly but I think at the end of

15 1991 I joined the SDS in Banja Luka. I do not just know the

16 date exactly. I think it was 1991.

17 Q. To join the SDS in Banja Luka did you have to pay a membership

18 fee?

19 A. You would have to fill in a form with your data and a very

20 insignificant amount as a fee, but, yes, you did have to pay a

21 membership fee.

22 Q. Was that an annual fee that had to be paid?

23 A. Yes, an annual fee.

24 Q. Did you ever repay your fee after the first time of joining?

25 A. I joined the SDS simply because the former party had been

26 disbanded. The first to be formed was SDA, then HDZ and then

27 when the Serbian Democratic Party was formed Serbs normally

28 joined en masse, but afterwards I was never politically

Page 7456

1 committed. I truly was not interested in politics because

2 I thought politics was dangerous, and one can suffer through

3 politics. So I was not one that was engaged in politics at all.

4 Q. Did you ever go to any meetings?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Or read any literature about the SDS?

7 A. No, nothing.

8 Q. Did you ever have political discussions with your brother Dusko

9 about the SDS?

10 A. No, but I told him once on one occasion: "Dusko, take care,

11 think how our father fared even though he was a member of the

12 Communist Party".

13 Q. What did you mean by that?

14 A. What I meant was the following: our father was a combatant from

15 1941. He was an officer. He was wounded several times. He was

16 a partisan, of course, and in the former Yugoslavia during the

17 time of the war, as you probably know, there were Ustashas,

18 there were Chetniks, there were partisans. Our father was

19 arrested twice in 1941 in Kozarac as a communist, as a

20 partisan. In '92, upon the formation of the first proletarian

21 battalion. They were meant to go to Eastern Bosnia, a selected

22 group of them, some 10 or so of them, and when they were to join

23 this Unit they were first near Kotor Varos and he was heavily

24 wounded by a grenade. He was transferred to a hospital in

25 Josani near Celinac. He was lying in hospital. There were 70

26 or so wounded partisans. They were guarded by a unit from

27 Celinac.

28 In the night, I do not know the date, anyway around

Page 7457

1 midnight -- my father told me this -- a group of Chetniks broke

2 in and slaughtered these wounded men. My father survived by

3 chance because he was lying behind the door which was -- when

4 they opened that door they fired machine gunfire. Some were

5 killed, others jumped out of the window, and he crept under the

6 bed and he dragged the body of one of the killed patients on top

7 of him. Then he took out their bayonets and they went from one

8 to another piercing them and, having pierced this dead man, they

9 also injured our father under the chin and here at the waist.

10 He pretended to be dead.

11 Some had jumped out of the window but they were

12 caught, and in the morning when it dawned, the survivors were

13 lined up in front of the hospital. There was some exchange of

14 fire, then other partisans who had not been wounded carried out

15 an attack. The Chetniks fled, and our father managed to save

16 his life.

17 As for the counsel I gave him, these were the

18 reasons. Because after the war our father who had these great

19 merits, he was wounded five or six times in the war, he did not

20 have much in the sense of rewards. There were medals awarded.

21 There were many that he did not get. Among the privileges he

22 had were simply that nobody interfered with him, but he would

23 not go into politics, whereas many others would appropriate

24 other people's merits. So he paid dearly for his political

25 commitment because, though he was an officer in the war, he

26 ended up as a watchman at the factory in Kozarac.

27 Q. The translation we had on the transcript said '92, do you mean

28 1942?

Page 7458

1 A. Yes, yes. Of course. All this was happening in 1942 when our

2 father had these problems.

3 Q. In November of 1991 there was a plebiscite in Kozarac organised

4 by the SDS for the Serbian people, and your brother Dusko was

5 the organiser of it within Kozarac. Were you involved in that

6 in any way?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know if in 1991 the SDS had any sizeable body of people

9 in support of it in Kozarac?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Was it visible as a political party? Was it a party within that

12 town that had a great voice, that promoted its views amongst

13 people?

14 A. No. It played no role in Kozarac because Kozarac, as far as

15 I know, it was -- it had about 25, 26,000 inhabitants and it was

16 predominantly Muslim.

17 Q. What about the SDA, the other political party that was a

18 dominant force in the region, can you tell us about what sort of

19 voice and presence that had in Kozarac?

20 A. Well, all functions in the Local Commune, in the local

21 government, had SDA. It was a strong party with a large number

22 of members. There were a lot of members. Not everybody, but a

23 lot of them were members of SDA, and they were putting out large

24 placards at the entrance of Kozarac with pictures of

25 Izetbegovic.

26 Q. Did this have any effect upon the minority Serb population

27 within that town?

28 A. Probably it caused some fear in 1991. One could sense that

Page 7459

1 everybody is closing in to be with their own, but let me make it

2 clear. In Kozarac, the Muslims, even though the Muslims were

3 members of SDA, they were not all extreme in their views. They

4 were nice people, honest people, but they just joined their own

5 people and their party.

6 Q. Did there come a stage in 1992 before the conflict in Kozarac

7 that certain families started leaving the town to move

8 elsewhere?

9 A. That was a period, the period in 1992 and late 1991 less, but it

10 was more in 1992. There were moving families, those who had

11 somebody elsewhere, somebody abroad, and many were abroad.

12 Almost every household had a member abroad and, more or less,

13 they all were well to do. So, one could notice, and our house

14 was in the centre, on the main street, so you could notice these

15 departures; mostly it was women and children and some of the

16 elderly.

17 Q. Were these Serb families as well as Muslim families who were

18 leaving the region in 1992?

19 A. Well, seeing that Muslims were leaving, probably fearing the

20 war, also the Serb families took their children away from

21 Kozarac.

22 Q. At this time there was a war going on in Croatia and the forces

23 of the former Yugoslavia were involved in fighting troops in

24 Croatia. Was this a matter that was in the minds of the people

25 in Kozarac during this period of 1992?

26 A. Well, yes.

27 Q. Did there come a time when Dusko Tadic's family also left

28 Kozarac for a period of time?

Page 7460

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us when that was?

3 A. I think it was at the beginning of April.

4 Q. Which members of the family left Kozarac at that time?

5 A. All members left.

6 Q. Did that include Dusko Tadic?

7 A. Yes, but together with Dusko there was an Orthodox priest with

8 his family who left in the same car.

9 Q. Do you know where they went, the Tadic family, when they left

10 Kozarac?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where did they go to?

13 A. They came to me in Banja Luka, both the priest with his family

14 and Dusko with his own.

15 Q. Dusko's family, did that include his wife Mira, the two children

16 and your mother?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did Dusko Tadic stay in Banja Luka or did he return to Kozarac,

19 having left with his family?

20 A. Dusko returned the next day, back to Kozarac, and the priest,

21 Mladen Majkic, in his car went to Sanski Most in the -- to

22 Kozice is the name of the settlement.

23 Q. Dusko Tadic's wife, Mira, the children and your mother, did they

24 remain in Banja Luka or go elsewhere?

25 A. When they arrived they stayed the night with me, all of them,

26 the priest and his family and Dusko and the mother and

27 children. The apartment was very small, only 34 square metres,

28 so that we did not have much room, but we sort of laid down

Page 7461

1 mattresses and so they somehow spent the night. The priest left

2 in his own car and Dusko left not that very moment but later to

3 Kozarac, and I, I cannot say exactly whether it was that day or

4 the next day, in my white van, it was a Volkswagen, a bit older,

5 because the Orthodox priest told them, "Come to me, there is a

6 house there so you can be there, to that place Kozice", so

7 I took them there.

8 Q. Is that Mira, the children and your mother that you took to

9 Kozice in the combi?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What vehicles did you own at this time, Mr. Tadic?

12 A. I had a van, a Volkswagen, an older type, I think it was May --

13 the make was 79 or '80. I had a motorcycle -- Ford Escort,

14 sorry, that I bought in Germany and I brought it to Banja Luka

15 with me, but there was something wrong with the carburettor and

16 I could not find a part.

17 Q. I have on the transcript here: "I had a motorcycle, Ford

18 Escort, sorry", did you have a motorcycle, a motor bike?

19 A. No, no, no. It was a Ford Escort 1300 cubic, and red in colour.

20 Q. Thank you. I think there may have been a translation problem

21 there. Having taken the family of Dusko to Kozice, did they

22 return to Kozarac at any stage?

23 A. They returned somewhere. They were there for quite a while,

24 I think about on 29th of April.

25 Q. How long did they stay in Kozarac?

26 A. I came to Kozarac, I think, on the 1st. I know that Dusko told

27 me, "Here, we got here, and here we go again, there is a

28 problem", because I think at that time I heard that at that time

Page 7462

1 the power was taken over by the Serb police in Prijedor, and

2 there was a panic in Kozarac because Kozarac was part of the

3 Prijedor municipality, and in the past it used to be its own

4 municipality and then later it was joined.

5 Q. Having said to you about the trouble that had occurred by the

6 takeover, did the family of Dusko Tadic remain in Kozarac long

7 or did they move?

8 A. No, in the meantime Dusko and I, since he was coming on several

9 occasions still, he told me -- in fact, I told him that there

10 was a possibility that I find temporary lodging for him, that a

11 friend of mine who worked with me at one time in Cajavec -- his

12 name was Nihad Alic -- that his brother has the keys to a house

13 near his own house, and he was watching the house because

14 I think the woman who was an Ukrainian went to Germany and was

15 not planning on coming back any time soon, and that house had

16 been robbed several times, he said.

17 So, he would like -- he asked, called the woman on the

18 phone and he said that he had a friend who, that he would bring

19 him there temporarily, that there is nothing to worry, that

20 everything would be all right, that he was honest, that nothing

21 would be missing; and she agreed that he give him the key --

22 that he gives the key to Dusko Tadic. When I told him that, he

23 said: "Well, let's then do that, see what the situation is

24 like. They are leaving, so who knows what can happen?" So then

25 from the moment of arrival in Kozarac they were there for three

26 days and then they came.

27 Q. So the house you are talking about that your friend Alic was

28 aware of, was that in Banja Luka?

Page 7463

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. So what happened then? Did the Tadic family after a few days in

3 Kozarac leave Kozarac and go to Banja Luka?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us whenabouts this was?

6 A. Three days, somewhere between 1st -- no, it was not the 1st.

7 They came on 29th April. I think around 3rd May or 4th May. I

8 do not know exactly, but in that period.

9 Q. The family that left Kozarac at that time, was that the wife

10 Mira, the children and your mother?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did Dusko Tadic go with them?

13 A. I think that he brought them.

14 Q. Did you see them when they arrived in Banja Luka having left

15 Kozarac then in early May?

16 A. Yes. They came to me.

17 Q. So did they go to your house first before going to the house

18 elsewhere in Banja Luka that the man Alic had made available?

19 A. They came to my house and then immediately we went to see that

20 house, and that house was not finished. It was a huge house,

21 had a top floor, but nothing was finished on the top floor.

22 There was only raw space. It was not ready to be inhabited, but

23 the bottom of the house, like the basement, there was -- it was

24 furnished, there was one large room and there was a kitchen.

25 Q. To get to the part of the house then, the basement, how would

26 you get to that part of the house?

27 A. I think it was the Koste Jarica Street where that house was.

28 You could get there by car all the way up to the entrance.

Page 7464

1 There was a fence and when you walk in from the facade it was --

2 it was blocked and so you had to go around, so you had to go all

3 the way around, and then come from the other side.

4 Q. Is that at the back of the house?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I would like you now to look at some photographs, D62A, please,

7 and D62B. If they could be put on the monitor straightaway

8 beside the witness? Thank you very much. Do you recognise the

9 photograph on the left?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that the house you have been telling us about?

12 A. Yes, you could park the car and that was the entrance and this

13 is the front of the house. There was nothing finished. None of

14 this was finished.

15 Q. The photograph on the right, what does that show?

16 A. It shows the back of the house. You had to go around this way

17 and down and then you go around and come -- there were some

18 vines there and I think there was some water there, maybe it was

19 a pipe, and then there was the entrance to the house.

20 Q. How close to where you lived was this house in Koste Jarica

21 Street?

22 A. One could say maybe a kilometre, approximately.

23 Q. The man Alic who told you of this house and made it available,

24 where did he live?

25 A. He lived, you see from here, this house, you continue on this

26 side there is another one and then across from that house to the

27 left was Alic's house.

28 Q. Do you know a man called Dragoje Balte?

Page 7465

1 A. Dragoje Balte.

2 Q. I am sorry. But do you know who I am speaking of when I mention

3 that name?

4 A. I know.

5 Q. Yes, and where does he live?

6 A. He lived -- it is like this, the next house over was a smaller

7 house and it was a back house, and next one over was Dragoje

8 Balte's house, but both those were the property of Dragoje

9 Balte.

10 Q. Perhaps if you could look at photograph 62C and if that could be

11 put on the monitor straightaway? That third photograph, do you

12 recognise where that photograph has been taken?

13 A. This is the house of Dragoje Balte, but from the other side,

14 this is the balcony, the one on the back of the house.

15 Q. Can we see there the house that Dusko Tadic and his family moved

16 into in Banja Luka? If so, can you put the pointer on the spot

17 and hold it there for about five seconds?

18 A. This is the house and you can only see the roof.

19 Q. Thank you. Did you know Dragoje Balte before they moved into

20 that house in Banja Luka?

21 A. No.

22 Q. How long did the family stay in that house?

23 A. From the date of their move in they stayed maybe a month.

24 Q. Did Dusko Tadic remain at the house living with the family

25 there?

26 A. No.

27 Q. What happened to him?

28 A. We spent a lot of time together at that time -- that was the

Page 7466

1 period between 3rd May and May 16th -- and we saw each other a

2 lot. We would sit together, have a drink. He would bring the

3 mother and the children to my place and to my wife's mother.

4 One was in the street of Koste Jarica and behind it was the

5 street of Milosa Duica, and then he was bringing the mother,

6 especially the mother, to Jovo Samardzija. That is an elderly

7 man, a veteran, and his wife is related to our mother.

8 Q. You said in answer to the question, did Dusko Tadic remain at

9 the house living with the family there, no; so where was he

10 after the family moved in on 3rd May? You have told us how he

11 spent his time, but did he return to Kozarac to continue with

12 the cafe?

13 A. No.

14 Q. We are talking now about 3rd May. You told us that you had

15 opened your cafe at the beginning of May and that you were

16 trading ----

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. --- from your cafe until 21st May. In that period that you were

19 trading at your cafe, was Dusko Tadic still working at his cafe

20 in Kozarac?

21 A. I made a mistake. Dusko Tadic, when he brought the family, he

22 went back to Kozarac, and his cafe work was open all the way up

23 until May 22nd, 23rd, up until the eve of the conflict.

24 Q. So in that period from 3rd May until 23rd May, did he also

25 return to Banja Luka?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Did he visit his family that remained in that house that you

28 have shown us in Koste Jarica?

Page 7467

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The conflict in Kozarac started on 24th May. Do you know where

3 Dusko Tadic was on that day?

4 A. On 24th May Dusko was in Banja Luka and on 23rd May he was in

5 Banja Luka.

6 Q. How do you know he was in Banja Luka on 23rd May?

7 A. I already said that from May 22nd, a Friday, I remember that

8 because I remember it, but I also have a document saying when a

9 delivery arrived from the Banja Luka brewery, that was the 21st,

10 and I went to Banja Luka. I was to go back the next day.

11 Everything was blocked and it was not possible to go in or out

12 of Kozarac. I was worried. I wanted to go but I did not know

13 how to get there. I knew he had -- he was there alone and I was

14 afraid for him, but there was no way for me to go there.

15 However, he appeared on 23rd of May in Banja Luka.

16 Q. Where did you see him?

17 A. He came to my place briefly, and he told me: "I only just

18 managed to escape alive. Here I am. I came by train". He said

19 he came by train from Prijedor in the afternoon, this was, and

20 he even said that some Muslims living in Prijedor had come to

21 Banja Luka, among others, my school friend and a childhood

22 friend, Tadic Esad.

23 Q. So having left Kozarac, as you say, on 23rd May, were you aware

24 in Banja Luka of the conflict that started in Kozarac on the

25 afternoon of 24th May?

26 A. I did not understand the question.

27 Q. So, having left Kozarac on 23rd May, as you have told us your

28 brother did, were you aware of the conflict that broke out in

Page 7468

1 that town of Kozarac in the afternoon of 24th May?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How did you know about that?

4 A. Kozarac is 45 kilometres from Banja Luka and news would spread

5 quickly, and there were reports on the media, on the radio.

6 What was said was that Kozarac was under blockade, that Muslim

7 authorities or, rather, units would not surrender their weapons

8 and a conflict had broken out.

9 Q. Did you take part in any of the fighting or attack on Kozarac in

10 that period from 24th May onwards?

11 A. No. If I wanted to, I could have joined in a unit.

12 Q. On 24th May onwards, during the period of the conflict of about

13 five days, something like that, do you know where your brother

14 Dusko Tadic was?

15 A. From 23rd May Dusko was all the time in Banja Luka.

16 Q. How do you know that?

17 A. My flat and the house in which Dusko was staying is removed one

18 kilometre away on the outside. In between is the family home of

19 my wife. There were several cafes in between, and who was

20 closer to him than me, he would come often. I would pass by

21 too. We would sit down in one of those cafes or a pizzeria.

22 For instance, there was a pizzeria, another one called "Bel Ami"

23 and several such places and particularly in the evenings we

24 would go out to have a drink.

25 Q. Having arrived in Banja Luka for this period then, from 23rd

26 May, how long did Dusko Tadic remain living in Banja Luka?

27 A. Sorry, I did not understand.

28 Q. Having arrived in Banja Luka on 23rd May, for how long did Dusko

Page 7469

1 Tadic remain living in Banja Luka?

2 A. Until June 16th.

3 Q. Why do you say until June 16th?

4 A. In the area of Prijedor there were the war operations, and if he

5 were to go there he would be snatched up by our military police

6 and taken to one of the units. In Banja Luka he was safe and he

7 could stay there.

8 Q. Were you mobilized on any particular date?

9 A. I was in the reserves of -- that was the Territorial Defence,

10 like the Muslims in Kozarac, they had Territorial Defence units,

11 and so there was a Serbian Territorial Defence too. I was a

12 reserve from April 5th until June 16th.

13 Q. When you say that you were a reserve, was that within Banja

14 Luka?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What were your duties then from April until June 16th as a

17 reserve in Banja Luka, what did you do?

18 A. Nothing really, because it is a Territorial Defence unit, not a

19 war unit.

20 Q. It is all right. I am just asking -- you are facing to me --

21 that the microphone that is closest to me is switched on.

22 A. Nothing in particular. I did not have any special duties. It

23 is a Territorial Defence unit that I was in. Our duty, because

24 we were on the territory of the Local Commune of Starcevici, we

25 had to provide security for the most important edifices in that

26 part of Banja Luka. Such units existed in the part of Banja

27 Luka called Mejdan, another district called Laus, another one

28 called Centar and so on.

Page 7470

1 Q. So what did you do in relation to these edifices?

2 A. There were quite a number of us mobilized, so that I had to

3 protect, watch over, the elementary school, to be on guard in

4 front of the school. Then there was a bridge at Rebrovci, then

5 there was the Orthodox church, buildings like that.

6 Q. How often would you report for these duties?

7 A. One day I would perhaps have four hours on duty. Then I would

8 be free for 24 hours or 48 hours. It depended really, because

9 there was no war. The situation was not a dangerous one at the

10 time that you would have to be present all the time.

11 Q. Doing these duties were they voluntary work by you or were you

12 required to join the reserve at this time with other people and

13 guard these edifices?

14 A. While I was working in Cajavec I was a member of the civil

15 defence. That existed at the level of work organisations. When

16 I left Cajavec, I had to belong somewhere, so that I had to

17 report to the Local Commune, and then they assigned us to

18 Territorial Defence units.

19 Q. 16th June was a date that you said you were mobilized. Was that

20 a general mobilization for everyone or a particular date upon

21 which you were mobilized?

22 A. June 16th was the date of a general mobilization called in the

23 territory of what was then the Autonomous Region of Krajina or,

24 in fact, Banja Luka, the whole region of Krajina.

25 Q. So was that a general mobilization that applied to most people

26 or only some people?

27 A. Most people, almost all.

28 Q. Your mobilization took what form? Did you join the military or

Page 7471

1 the police or any other organisation?

2 A. The Territorial Defence Unit existed in the territory of

3 Starcevici, the Local Commune of Starcevici, was automatically

4 transferred to a wartime unit. Territorial Defence units were

5 abolished and a 2nd Light Infantry Brigade was formed which

6 included those territorial units.

7 Q. Your brother Dusko, do you know where he was mobilized to, what

8 duties he had to do? Where did he go?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. Where?

11 A. We knew about 10 days in advance that there would be a general

12 mobilization. In view of the fact that he was in the Prijedor

13 records, his place of mobilization was Prijedor. So he had to

14 report in Prijedor. There already existed war units that had

15 waged war in Slavonia, the 5th Kozara, the 43rd Kozara brigades,

16 and he had to report to the military staff and then he got a

17 wartime assignment. He told me that he did not want to join a

18 military unit. He had no experience. He had no will and

19 I think he was afraid to go to the front.

20 Q. So do you know how he was mobilized?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What did he join?

23 A. He came to my apartment and he said he would like best to join

24 the traffic police, if possible. Then we called up Radovan

25 Vokic, our uncle's son, who was an active duty policeman,

26 I called him up and then he spoke to him. He said, he asked him

27 whether he could fix it through our godfather, Jankovic Dusan,

28 so that he would be positioned in the traffic police. Then

Page 7472

1 I took the earphone and I said: "Please help, help us, if not

2 he will have to go to a combat unit. He would go to Slavonia.

3 Who knows what would happen?". Then he promised to do what he

4 could.

5 After that, we called several more times and he said

6 he had spoken to Jankovic and this was by then the day before

7 the official mobilization. He told him: "Come immediately and

8 you will get a position in the traffic police".

9 Q. So that would have been 15th June?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. During this period then from 23rd May until the mobilization on

12 16th June, did you visit Kozarac?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On how many occasions?

15 A. Twice.

16 Q. Did you visit Kozarac with your brother Dusko Tadic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was it on those two occasions?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. First of all, can you tell us about the first time of a visit to

21 Kozarac?

22 A. I would first like to say that I had heard that Kozarac had been

23 destroyed and I wanted to see what had happened to our family

24 home. Of course, a truck load of goods was there. There was

25 Dusko's cafe and all the facilities inside. So we talked about

26 it and said: "Shall we go?" and we decided to go.

27 Q. Can you tell me when you first visited Kozarac after the

28 conflict had happened?

Page 7473

1 A. We went, it was 1st or 2nd May -- no, sorry, 1st or 2nd June.

2 Q. How long did you leave Banja Luka for?

3 A. We went that day to Omarska, the railway station. We went by

4 train and from there we walked to Lamovita. It is a village on

5 the road, on the highway, Prijedor to Banja Luka.

6 Q. What time did you leave Banja Luka on the train?

7 A. In the morning.

8 Q. Can you tell me the time?

9 A. No, I do not know. It was early, 9.00, 10.00, 8.00 maybe.

10 Q. You mentioned Omarska railway station. How close to the camp

11 that was sited at Omarska is that railway station?

12 A. I did not know at the time, because I had never been there. But

13 afterwards, after the conflict, after all this, after Dusko's

14 arrest, I went there, but then there was no camp. I had no idea

15 what it was like and that was the first time I saw it. But

16 I think the distance is up to three kilometres, the last

17 building, the restaurant, the big hall, and so on.

18 Q. Is that on the Kozarac side of the railway line or the other

19 side?

20 A. The other side, and from the train you could see some of the

21 buildings that also belonged to the mine, and you could read

22 "Iron ore mine Ljubija". It was on the left-hand side moving

23 from Banja Luka to Prijedor, on the left-hand side.

24 Q. Was there any indication to you at Omarska railway station that

25 there was this camp in the former Ljubija mine site?

26 A. At the station, no.

27 Q. You told us that you walked to Lamovita. What happened at

28 Lamovita?

Page 7474

1 A. We reached the crossroads. Then we went on. This is the

2 crossroads of the Prijedor to Banja Luka and Lamovita/Omarska

3 roads. Then we went to one of Dusko's former waiters. His name

4 was Timarac. They called him "Pile". His nickname was "Pile".

5 Q. How good are you with maps, Mr. Tadic?

6 A. [Answer not translated].

7 Q. Let us try then. Prosecution Exhibit 280, please. If this

8 could be placed in front of you so that you can familiarise

9 yourself with it? Can you see in the middle of this map we have

10 the big lake called Sanicani?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you see on the right-hand side of the map we have the

13 village of Omarska?

14 A. Yes, I see it.

15 Q. Can you see further up the map where Kozarac is?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are you able to indicate to us where on this map Lamovita is

18 that you spoke of? See if you can, and if you cannot then we

19 will not show it on the screen, but if you can, please do so.

20 A. Just a moment, please.

21 Q. It is not written on this map as a village or place.

22 A. It is not written, I think.

23 Q. No, it is not written, but would you be able to point where it

24 would be found?

25 A. I can. I can.

26 Q. Thank you. If that could be put on the screen to your right?

27 With that steel indicator, can you point to us where Lamovita

28 would be found? Can the map be put so that it is right over?

Page 7475

1 Yes. Move it more to your right, my left. I wish I could

2 control this myself.

3 JUDGE VOHRAH: I think the map D79 will help a great deal. It is

4 marked there, Lamovita.

5 MR. KAY: I am grateful to your Honour. If we can see if the witness

6 can point out? Can you move the map further across, please?

7 Can you point to where Lamovita would be found? There.

8 A. [The witness indicated] This is the junction.

9 Q. Thank you very much. That is the crossroads there. Is that

10 road that comes from Omarska ----

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. --- meeting there what is known as the new Banja Luka/Prijedor

13 highway?

14 A. Left is to Prijedor, right to Banja Luka, up there is Lamovita.

15 There is a little bit more road and then there is a small petrol

16 pump there. Here, Lamovita is here somewhere.

17 Q. Yes. Is there a district known as Lamovita in addition to the

18 village?

19 A. It is a village.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: I do not know if we have ever actually had the camp

22 site of Omarska pointed out to us. We have heard that it is

23 some, perhaps, three kilometres from the village. If the

24 witness still has 280 in front of him?

25 MR. KAY: Yes, I think we did many, many weeks ago, your Honour.

26 JUDGE STEPHEN: Yes, maybe.

27 MR. KAY: Perhaps it is good to have our memories refreshed. If 280

28 could be put back in front of the witness? Mr. Tadic, it would

Page 7476

1 be right to say that since all these matters you visited the

2 site of where the camp was at Omarska on several occasions, is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes, but in 1994.

5 Q. Yes, and after 1994, I suspect?

6 A. Yes, after.

7 Q. Are you able to point out to us where that site is on this map

8 in front of you? Omarska is on the right-hand side.

9 A. Let us see. You see, there was an overhead, then you go to the

10 left and there was a big red building with the words inscribed

11 on it.

12 Q. Can I stop you there? Can you point to it on the map for us?

13 That is what we want. We know where it is and what it looks

14 like, but we want to identify it on the map if you can do that.

15 A. Somewhere here, I think.

16 Q. If we can just try that and see where it is. Perhaps, usher, if

17 you can put it back on the monitor?

18 A. Here it is. Here, somewhere here.

19 Q. Keep your eye on that and if you could put the steel pointer on

20 the place, and if you could have the bottom half of the map

21 right up on the monitor and if you could put Omarska in the

22 middle?

23 A. I think it is somewhere here, the first part. Then it goes on

24 here. [The witness indicated] There is this large complex. I

25 do not know exactly, but from the railroad in this direction

26 three kilometres.

27 Q. You see the yellow road that runs south of Omarska through

28 Reljici, yes? If you went down that road, where would you find

Page 7477

1 the camp of Omarska?

2 A. Here somewhere.

3 Q. Can you just keep the pointer on for five seconds?

4 A. Somewhere there. [The witness indicated]. I am simply not very

5 good with maps.

6 Q. You have answered one question anyway. Your Honour, I think

7 that is an appropriate moment looking at the clock.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

9 (11.30 a.m.)

10 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

11 (11.50 a.m.)


13 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

14 Q. You have told us that having arrived at Omarska railway station

15 you then went to Lamovita. What was the reason for going to

16 Lamovita?

17 A. We went to a friend of ours, actually a former waiter of

18 Dusko's, who was living there. We did not have transportation,

19 and that part of the road towards Kozarac was not very

20 recommendable and so there was not much traffic going on it. So

21 we went to this Timarac and asked him to give us a ride to

22 Kozarac in his vehicle.

23 Q. Did you then go with him to the town of Kozarac?

24 A. He told us that he did not have enough fuel to take us there,

25 but that he would otherwise. So we went to Lamovita, but let me

26 tell you right away, Lamovita, there was a gas station and there

27 were some structures there, and there was a military unit that

28 was stationed there. The house belonging to Timarac was towards

Page 7478

1 Kozarac, maybe a kilometre or something like that.

2 Q. Did you get fuel for the car?

3 A. They gave us a certificate. I think we got 10 litres. Then we

4 tanked fuel and returned to Timarac's house and then we went in

5 his car by the old road, not the asphalt road, to Kozarac, to

6 our family house.

7 Q. By the "old road" do you mean the old road that would take you

8 from Kozarac to Banja Luka ----

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. --- which runs for large sections almost parallel to the new

11 highway?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. At what time did you arrive in Kozarac?

14 A. Sometime in the afternoon around -- it was the afternoon.

15 I remember that that day there was a funeral in the village, a

16 man died or was killed, I do not know, so we waited for that to

17 finish.

18 Q. Did you go to the family home in Marsala Tita Street?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was the state of the home when you visited it?

21 A. Dusko's cafe was -- all the windows were smashed, the house, the

22 front of it. My section of it was hit by a shell where I had

23 made the store front and so part of the wall was hit and that

24 store front, that window.

25 Q. You have told us about the delivery you had had on 21st May.

26 Were those goods still in your store?

27 A. For the most part, yes.

28 Q. Had anything been taken from the store?

Page 7479

1 A. Maybe several crates of beer.

2 Q. What about from your brother's cafe, had anything, so far as

3 both of you could tell, been taken from there?

4 A. At that moment, no. Maybe some of the supplies like glasses,

5 but the first time we arrived there the coffee machine was there

6 and it was there on top of the bar where it used to be

7 originally.

8 Q. How long did you stay at the house on this occasion?

9 A. An hour and a half, approximately, between an hour and hour and

10 a half.

11 Q. Did the man Timarac remain with you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So what did you do at the house at this time?

14 A. I entered into my part and Dusko went upstairs and looked around

15 his property. As the shell fell, a portion of those crates were

16 broken and then there were pot marks in the wall, and I had also

17 a number of empty crates because the Banja Luka brewery did not

18 allow me to get a large shipment of, let us say, 1,000 crates at

19 a time. So I could only get 300 or 400 at a time. So I was

20 saving the empty crates. So all this was moved, so from the

21 outside you could see that there was beer in there.

22 I took down the sign where it said "Banja Luka

23 brewery". Then I moved the full crates with beer, because my

24 premises had -- are two parts so there is a partition wall

25 between them. So I moved it to the side so that it would not be

26 seen, and around it I put all those empty crates so that if

27 somebody entered that they would think that it is all empty and

28 they would not take anything.

Page 7480

1 After that I came out and a soldier came, and he got

2 into Pile's car and maybe he wanted to get something out of it

3 or something and Pile ran over and said: "This is mine", and so

4 he got out. Then another one came and he was a tank driver.

5 Then I met him. Dusko was there and Pile.

6 Q. Who is Pile?

7 A. Timarac, Timarac.

8 Q. That is his nickname, "Pile"?

9 A. Yes, that is his nickname; even now everybody calls him "Pile".

10 So I re-entered my premises. I got out four bottles of beer and

11 we came to Dusko's place, stood at the bar. We drank the beer.

12 We asked him to watch, keep an eye on this, because his unit was

13 stationed there. We got into Pile's car and started back to his

14 village.

15 Q. During this time had your brother Dusko, like you, remained in

16 the house?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You returned to Lamovita where Timarac lived. Can you tell us

19 what time you arrived there on this day?

20 A. I will tell you, but I just want to add something that

21 I omitted. Before this soldier arrived when we drank the beer,

22 for a while we stood in front of the house for a while. You

23 could not believe that everything was so destroyed, so we were

24 standing around, and a large truck appeared -- a Barava make --

25 and it came to a stop down from our house.

26 There was a house of Ankic Salih and then there was a

27 building, and so there this truck came and came to a stop when

28 they saw us. There was a kind of a stocky man -- I think he was

Page 7481

1 a sergeant -- and when he got out of the car he pulled out a

2 handgun -- it was a Magnum 357 -- and he pointed it at me. We

3 were all in civilian clothes. He asked us who we were, and

4 I said that I was the owner of the house there, and he looked at

5 us kind of strangely. Then I told him that we were Serbs,

6 because people outside of Kozarac, many people outside of

7 Kozarac, thought that in Kozarac -- maybe somebody did not even

8 know that there were any Serbs living in Kozarac.

9 So he asked us for our IDs. I showed him my personal

10 ID. He told me that we must not move around there in civilian

11 clothes because we could be harmed because people may not know

12 who we were. Then I said that we were going. Then he went into

13 that building, and we got into the car and went to the village

14 of Timarac, to his house.

15 Q. What time, if you can tell us, was it that you got back to

16 Lamovita?

17 A. It was 5.00 or 6 o'clock maybe.

18 Q. At Lamovita, what did you do then?

19 A. We came to Pile's house. Before that, Pile -- Dusko got from

20 the attic of our house a hunting gun which belonged to Mladen

21 Tadic and he left it there before the war in the house, and he

22 also took with him an automatic rifle which we brought along

23 together with this hunting rifle.

24 Q. You have told us about the hunting rifle, but the automatic

25 rifle, do you know how your brother got that?

26 A. I know because he got that automatic rifle even before, before

27 the conflict. I cannot say exactly when, the date, I do not

28 know the date, but I used to see it when I would come to

Page 7482

1 Kozarac. That is, I knew that Dusko at night is keeping watch

2 on the balcony in front of the house or in the cafe during that

3 period of time of the conflict and before the conflict.

4 Q. Do you know where he got that automatic rifle from?

5 A. He got it from a young man who was in the war in Slavonia and

6 who deserted the unit. He was married to a Muslim woman and a

7 man who did not want to be involved in the war. He did not know

8 how to get rid of the weapon. If he took the weapon to

9 Prijedor, the military police would arrest him because he left

10 his unit. Then he asked Dusko if he could leave the rifle with

11 him and that maybe he could return it somehow, I do not know.

12 He himself did not dare do it, and return it. I think his name

13 was Kusuta.

14 Q. Did he live near Kozarac?

15 A. He lived in a village of Balte, that is, in the vicinity of

16 Kozarac, a few kilometres.

17 Q. Those two weapons then were taken by your brother from the

18 house?

19 A. From the attic.

20 Q. Yes. Did he take them then away from the house and did you take

21 them with you to Lamovita?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You referred to your brother keeping watch. Had there been any

24 trouble or incidents of trouble at his cafe before the conflict?

25 A. Well, yes. I cannot exactly say the date, one cannot remember

26 everything, but in that period of time when he opened the cafe

27 it was a nice -- very nicely appointed inside. There was a

28 video recorder there. I think there was, I do not know which

Page 7483

1 make, Fisher or Teac. But on one occasion somebody smashed the

2 windows and they took the TV and nobody ever found out who it

3 was, when it was. It was in the early morning hours.

4 Q. From Lamovita did you take those weapons with you and return to

5 Banja Luka?

6 A. The hunting gun we left. It could not be used. I had not seen

7 such a hunting rifle before. The mechanism was that you had to

8 pull out a pin before you fired. I had never seen it. That

9 hunting gun, when he kept it in the house, he would leave it.

10 He would pull out that part and he would keep it separate in the

11 armoire. When he hid it there, apparently, that trigger

12 mechanism was left in the armoire, so when the conflict in

13 Kozarac came somebody stole that because many things were also

14 stolen. So that at that point it was like nothing, like a

15 stick. We did not take it, so we only brought the automatic

16 rifle with us.

17 Q. So was the hunting rifle left with Timarac?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. From Lamovita how did you return to Banja Luka?

20 A. We got down to the crossroads of the Prijedor/Banja

21 Luka/Lamovita/Omarska road and there were some police there,

22 there were military. So we hitchhiked and we got a ride on a

23 truck to Banja Luka.

24 Q. What time did you return to Banja Luka?

25 A. Well, it was already towards dusk.

26 Q. That automatic rifle was taken by your brother back to Banja

27 Luka with him, is that right?

28 A. I was carrying it because he did not have a permit for it and I

Page 7484

1 had -- I have a blank document and I entered the number of the

2 rifle because I had a permit to carry automatic weapons from

3 that Territorial Defence Unit of mine.

4 Q. You told us that there was a second visit to Kozarac in this

5 period of time. When did that take place?

6 A. Yes. I think -- actually I know for sure that Dusko went there

7 on another occasion, but not to Kozarac. He went to -- he came

8 to our house, in fact, to the house of my mother-in-law of Jovo

9 Samardzija and at that time Dusko and myself and our mother were

10 at my relatives' there, and I remember him asking if he could --

11 if somebody or someone of us could go with him to Trnopolje

12 because he found out that his own sister together with the

13 Muslims from Jakupovici, which is where her house was, and

14 Jovo's summer house, that she went together with her neighbours

15 from there to this collection centre in Trnopolje, because there

16 was a possibility that she could be attacked. So, she went

17 alongside with them.

18 Q. Did you go to Trnopolje with Samardzija and your brother?

19 A. No, I had some obligations so I could not go but also, let me

20 tell you, I heard that there were all people from Kozarac there

21 so I was not feeling comfortable going there because they were

22 all my neighbours, our neighbours.

23 Q. Did you have many Muslim friends, Mr. Tadic?

24 A. Very many before the war, during the war. In the Unit where

25 I was there were over 100 Muslims, however improbable that may

26 sound. In a Unit where I was there were a lot of Muslims and

27 Croats.

28 Q. What I asked you about was the second visit to Kozarac. Can you

Page 7485

1 tell me when that took place?

2 A. The exact date I cannot say, but it was after Dusko's and Jovo's

3 departure for Trnopolje.

4 Q. You were mobilized on 16th June, as you have told us. Can you

5 tell us what sort of time period before that date this visit

6 would have happened?

7 A. To Kozarac, the second visit to Kozarac?

8 Q. Yes, that is the one I am asking about.

9 A. 12 -- 11, 12 days.

10 Q. On this occasion how did you travel to Kozarac?

11 A. We went by train to Omarska.

12 Q. Who went?

13 A. Myself and Dusko.

14 Q. Again can you tell us what time you would have left Banja Luka?

15 A. We left in the afternoon by train. I do not know exactly the

16 time.

17 Q. How did you get from Omarska to Kozarac?

18 A. We first arrived also by foot from Omarska to Timarac, to his

19 house.

20 Q. Did you have a ride with him again to Kozarac?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So how did you get from Lamovita to Kozarac?

23 A. That day we spent at Timarac because it was already late. We

24 spent the night there. Then we asked him to take us to Omarska

25 so that we could find a truck so that I could take my beer to

26 Banja Luka, and Dusko, some of his effects from the cafe.

27 Q. What was the reason for this second visit that you were now

28 engaged upon?

Page 7486

1 A. When I saw that everything was being taken away, that it was

2 being robbed and plundered, then I thought that our house would

3 not be spared either. So, I simply wanted to evacuate

4 everything, to rescue what I could. It did not matter whether

5 it was a Serb house or a Muslim house, people were just taking

6 and pillaging.

7 Q. So how many days after the first visit was this second visit?

8 A. Seven or eight days.

9 Q. Having seen Timarac and planned to go to Omarska to get a truck,

10 did Timarac take you to Omarska?

11 A. Yes, to the centre of Omarska. We found a man, a truck, and a

12 young man -- I do not know him, he knew him -- blond, tall. He

13 did not say right away how much he was going to charge us for

14 transportation, but he agreed to bring us some things. He did

15 not know what it was but he said that he would.

16 Q. Was this man your contact, Dusko's contact or a contact of the

17 man Timarac?

18 A. I do not think that he knew him very well in particular, but

19 there were a number of men with the trucks and he was in

20 uniforms and he said: "Would you take us there? We will pay

21 you", and he said he would.

22 Q. Was this a civilian truck or a military truck?

23 A. Civilian.

24 Q. Whereabouts in Omarska did you find this man with the truck?

25 A. In the centre. I do not know Omarska very well. So to the left

26 there was a road and there, there was a truck there. I think it

27 was a Zastava make.

28 Q. Is this near the marketplace?

Page 7487

1 A. Somewhere around there.

2 Q. Did he agree to take you to Kozarac?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you and your brother go with him back to the family home in

5 Marsala Tita Street?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What time on that day would you have returned back to the family

8 home?

9 A. Could have been between 11.00 and 12.00, something like that.

10 Q. This was a few days after your first visit. Had any more

11 possessions from the house been taken during the intervening

12 period?

13 A. Until then I did not know, but when I got there there was not a

14 single crate of beer there. The empty crates had been

15 overturned. The partition that I put in front, that was torn

16 and lying on the floor. From Dusko's cafe they were missing the

17 coffee-making machine and the contraption for tap beer.

18 There was nothing of all the glassware, bottles, the glasses

19 where you poured. It was an empty bar.

20 Q. What about in the family home in the rooms where family members

21 used to live?

22 A. There were some things at that time. It had not been taken

23 away, all of it.

24 Q. But had some things been taken away?

25 A. I was not living up there so that I could observe that if

26 something had been taken, maybe a refrigerator or something, but

27 as far as the sofa and the armoires, that was there, but things

28 were .....

Page 7488

1 Q. So what did you do when you arrived there at the home?

2 A. We loaded those, some of those empty crates. We took down the

3 top of the bar. It was an aluminium construction, that is how

4 it was made, so we took that whole thing down. That was just

5 above the bar, and we took down -- it was on hooks. They were

6 light and they were part of the decorations, so we took that

7 down as well. So that was it. I think we also brought -- there

8 was a heavy marble table top. We loaded that in and after that

9 we went back to Banja Luka.

10 Q. So you loaded these things into the truck. Did you have a full

11 load or a part load?

12 A. So-so. There were more empty crates than things really.

13 Q. What time did you leave Kozarac on this visit?

14 A. About 4 o'clock, 3 o'clock.

15 Q. Did the man who owned the lorry drive you and your brother back

16 to Banja Luka?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What happened then when you arrived at Banja Luka with the

19 lorry, where did you go?

20 A. He drove those things to Koste Jarica Street, the house that

21 Dusko and his children were living in and his mother.

22 Q. Were they off loaded there?

23 A. Yes, and we put those things -- Dusko was living in the basement

24 and when you enter the yard there was a wooden door and we

25 opened it from the inside, so we put those things upstairs.

26 Q. How long did ----

27 A. But not all of them. I am sorry, not all of them, just Dusko's

28 things. My things were unloaded at my mother-in-law's because

Page 7489

1 I had a shop there before.

2 Q. How long did those things remain at that house in Koste Jarica

3 Street?

4 A. Dusko's things remained a month maybe, maybe even two months,

5 after Dusko's departure from Banja Luka or, rather, from

6 Prijedor and Banja Luka.

7 Q. You have told us that your brother was mobilized on 16th June.

8 Where was he working from 16th June?

9 A. Dusko, as I said, was assigned to the traffic police and he

10 worked at a checkpoint at Orlovci which is a few kilometres from

11 Prijedor in the direction of Kozarac.

12 Q. So was that with the Prijedor police?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When he went to work for the Prijedor police, did his family

15 remain in Banja Luka?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did they ever move to Prijedor?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us if you know when that would have been?

20 A. I do not know exactly, but roughly it was 15 or 20 days when

21 they moved out completely, 15 or 20 days after Dusko started

22 working, maybe 15 days, after Dusko started working in the

23 police.

24 Q. You told us that you were mobilized on 16th June. Where were

25 you stationed initially from that date of 16th June?

26 A. After June 16th nothing changed in my unit. Actually, the

27 Territorial Defence Unit was transformed into the 2nd Light

28 Infantry Brigade of Banja Luka. There were several such Light

Page 7490

1 Infantry Brigades formed in the territory of Starcevici, Mejdan

2 and Ada -- these are districts of the town -- and from then the

3 2nd Light Infantry Brigade was formed.

4 Q. So did you remain then in Banja Luka?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How long did you remain in Banja Luka during your period of

7 mobilization?

8 A. Until 6th or 7th July.

9 Q. In that period that your brother started his mobilization in

10 Prijedor from 16th June until the family left for Prijedor some

11 20 days later, did you see your brother in Banja Luka? Did he

12 return to visit the family?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us on how many occasions, if you know, that would

15 have been?

16 A. Several times and he would come and visit me too, because we

17 were all close.

18 Q. Your mobilization in Banja Luka at that time, did that mean that

19 you lived in the barracks or did you live in your usual house or

20 apartment?

21 A. The command headquarters was in Kastel. This is a part of town

22 in the centre. There was a building there. There were two

23 restaurants and one of the buildings in which the command was

24 based, half of it was the command and the other half was a

25 carpet shop, a wholesale store.

26 Q. But did you sleep there or did you sleep back at your home? Did

27 you have a pass or a discharge that enabled you to be elsewhere

28 than in the base of the Unit?

Page 7491

1 A. I was not assigned to the Kastel, the barracks. I continued to

2 be performing the same duty as before when I was part of the

3 Territorial Defence and I slept at home.

4 Q. During this period until that date in July when you moved from

5 Banja Luka, did you ever visit your brother in Prijedor or the

6 family in Prijedor?

7 A. I did not move anywhere.

8 Q. No, I was asking whether you visited your brother in Prijedor?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Your Unit being based in Banja Luka, did it remain in Banja

11 Luka?

12 A. Yes, not all the time. A part of the Unit, about 20 men from

13 our Unit and 20 men from the 2nd Light, the 4th Light, roughly,

14 more than 20, maybe 40 to 50 people from my Unit, were sent to

15 Vlasic.

16 Q. When was that?

17 A. About the 6th or 7th July.

18 Q. Did you go to Vlasic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So was that on 6th or 7th July that you went to Vlasic?

21 A. 6th or 7th, yes.

22 Q. In that period from when your brother moved to Prijedor to work

23 from 16th June until you yourself went to Vlasic on 6th or 7th

24 July, on how many occasions did you visit him or the family in

25 Prijedor?

26 A. Maybe three times.

27 Q. Were they just day visits or did you stay for any period

28 overnight?

Page 7492

1 A. Once I spent the night.

2 Q. You have told us that you were mobilized within the 2nd Light

3 Infantry and that you, amongst others, went to Vlasic. How long

4 did you serve at Vlasic?

5 A. I do not know exactly the date, but I know that I returned for

6 maybe five days before the 26th of -- just a moment

7 please -- I went on 6th or 7th July and I was there

8 until -- I am sorry, I must try and remember.

9 Q. Did you have a younger son born at this time?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what was the date of his birth?

12 A. He was born on 26th August.

13 Q. Of 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So, did you come back for his birth?

16 A. Yes, I returned before he was born.

17 Q. Can you tell us about how many days or the exact number of days,

18 if you can, before he was born?

19 A. Four or five days.

20 Q. So what were you doing at Vlasic?

21 A. My Unit was located at Vitovlje, a part of Vlasic, there was a

22 school there, and I was stationed at a part called Kajin Kamen.

23 It is a left of a unit from Celinac which was stationed just

24 across Dobrotici, a village which was mostly inhabited by

25 Croats.

26 Q. If you can give us an indication, about how far from Travnik was

27 the place that you were based?

28 A. It could have been six to 10 kilometres.

Page 7493

1 Q. What was ----

2 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can you give us any indication of where in Yugoslavia

3 Vlasic is?

4 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I have actually asked for a map that shows

5 this area. Unfortunately, I have been unsuccessful. Maybe over

6 the luncheon adjournment the Prosecution, who I am sure would

7 probably have a map of this particular area, could help us.

8 Thank you.

9 [To the witness]: At this time what was your Unit

10 concerned with? What were you doing there at Vlasic?

11 A. I know for sure at that time operations had started in the city

12 of Jajce, and our assignment or the assignment of a part of our

13 Unit and these other units was to prevent the breakthrough of

14 those units towards Vitovlje towards the relay station to

15 prevent its capture.

16 Q. These were your orders, were they, as part of your mobilization

17 that you had to spend this period at Vlasic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You served there for this period of time. After the birth of

20 your son did you return to Vlasic?

21 A. No.

22 Q. During this time that you served at Vlasic did you ever see any

23 convoys of refugees travelling to Travnik?

24 A. I had no personal contact with them, but I saw them in passing.

25 Q. Did you see or come across any attacks or did you take part in

26 yourself any attacks on those convoys involving refugees?

27 A. No, I did not.

28 Q. Did you see any attacks on those convoys?

Page 7494

1 A. No.

2 Q. Having served there during this period of time and returning to

3 Banja Luka, did you return to your Unit or were you given leave

4 of absence for a period of time from the Unit?

5 A. I returned to Banja Luka. I was given about 15 days leave of

6 absence because of the birth of my son and I was in Banja Luka.

7 Q. Can you tell us when it was that you rejoined your Unit?

8 A. Around the second half of September.

9 Q. In that period of 15 days did you visit your brother or see your

10 brother during this time?

11 A. Of course, yes.

12 Q. Where was that?

13 A. I first went to Prijedor to visit them and to inform them of the

14 happy news that I had a third son.

15 Q. Did your brother Dusko visit you in Banja Luka at all?

16 A. Yes, my mother came, his wife and Dusko. They came during the

17 day and went back.

18 Q. Was that to see the new baby?

19 A. It was.

20 Q. When you returned to your Unit after this 15 days of absence,

21 did you resume duties in Banja Luka?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Where did you go?

24 A. For a few days, yes, and then I was told in the headquarters

25 that they wanted to fill in a military police squad belonging to

26 the 2nd Infantry Brigade, and they asked me whether I wanted to

27 be transferred to them.

28 Q. Were you transferred?

Page 7495

1 A. Yes, it was not a transfer really. It was the same Unit, only

2 I was no longer in the Starcevica Detachment, as it was called

3 in that part of town, but I was in the military police of the

4 2nd Light Infantry Brigade and the same military postal code.

5 Q. Did your duties keep you within Banja Luka or did you have to

6 serve elsewhere?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Can you tell us what happened then?

9 A. The duties of the military police, these were Brigade Military

10 Police because the Corps Military Police had much higher

11 authorizations. The Brigade Police only had authority over its

12 Unit if something were to happen within our Unit. If somebody

13 was to desert or something it was our duty to catch him and

14 bring him back. That was all.

15 Q. Was this in Banja Luka or somewhere else?

16 A. In Banja Luka.

17 Q. So this period of service, did that require you to live in

18 barracks in Banja Luka or were you able to live at your usual

19 home?

20 A. Well, it is nearby. It was in the centre of the city. It was

21 not a barracks. It was a building, as part of Kastel, a part of

22 the old city where there was a building, a shed, and inside were

23 the offices of the Police Commander, the person on duty and a

24 large room with about 10 beds.

25 Q. How long did you remain within the military police of your Unit,

26 the Brigade Military Police, in Banja Luka?

27 A. I stayed throughout until I was transferred to a completely

28 different unit until '94, but our Unit afterwards was relocated

Page 7496

1 to another location. The whole Unit went to Donji Svilaj. It

2 is somewhere near Bosanski Brod.

3 Q. When were you finally demobilized from the army?

4 A. On Women's Day, March 8th 1996.

5 Q. So in the period from 1994 when you were transferred yet again

6 to 1996 where did you serve?

7 A. I spent a part of the time -- I must tell you that in September

8 I was in Banja Luka. Then in October I was also there. At the

9 end of October my Unit went to Donji Svilaj and the Commander

10 went with them, but because the administration stayed behind in

11 Banja Luka then they needed to select four policemen who would

12 stay in Banja Luka to provide security for the people who had

13 stayed behind, and also if somebody were to desert they would

14 let us know and we would have to bring them back to Svilaj.

15 Q. Are you talking about 1992?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What I asked about was 1994.

18 A. In January of 1994, or to be more precise in November, I had

19 some problems with my wife. She fell ill. These were the

20 consequences of her delivery, two months after the delivery, and

21 she lost a great deal of weight. From 70 something her weight

22 dropped to 45. So she had serious health problems. So I was

23 among one of those people who stayed on in Banja Luka. They

24 showed understanding for me and I stayed on. In the meantime

25 I met several colleagues who offered the possibility for me to

26 join another unit in Banja Luka. It was not so easy in those

27 days to move from one unit to another. So I did not. I went to

28 Svilaj for two shifts of 10 days each. The Commander, I told

Page 7497

1 him about my problems and then I stayed. After, when she

2 recovered, after the New Year, I went for these two shifts. In

3 the meantime my Unit, there was talk of it entering the Doboj

4 zone of responsibility. I was in Doboj until the beginning

5 of '94. So I am giving you the whole account of where I was.

6 In December of '93 I was offered the possibility, some friends

7 of mine who had trained with me were accompanying the Lieutenant

8 Colonel Borivoje Pavlovic in TG1 Jasenovac. This belonged to

9 Jas Krajina, but some Units from the Banja Luka Corps were

10 located there.

11 Q. Going back to 1992, in that period from September until the end

12 of the year did you ever return to visit Kozarac?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. About what sort of frequency would that have been during that

15 period from September until the end of the year?

16 A. To Kozarac?

17 Q. Kozarac.

18 A. Maybe four or five times.

19 Q. Did you meet your brother in Kozarac on those occasions when you

20 visited?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know what he was doing in Kozarac at that time when you

23 visited him?

24 A. Then the police station had been formed in Kozarac, the Local

25 Commune, and he was there in the police, he and Bosko

26 Dragicevic, Zivco, I forget the surname, an older man, I will

27 remember probably, and some others. He worked in the Local

28 Commune. These were activities regarding resettlement of

Page 7498

1 people, the revival of life in Kozarac. He was active in the

2 Red Cross. I saw him distributing relief, he and Branka

3 Jasikovic, Danijela and so on.

4 Q. During this period during your visits, were they short visits or

5 did you spend some time in Kozarac?

6 A. Several hours at a time.

7 Q. What were you doing there? Why had you visited the place at

8 this time?

9 A. Simply because I wanted to see the place and my brother. That

10 is why.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, we will stand in recess for lunch

12 until 2.30.

13 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

14 (1.00 p.m.)

15 (Luncheon Adjournment)














Page 7499

1 (2.30 p.m.)

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may continue.

3 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. Over the luncheon adjournment we

4 had some maps provided to us by the Prosecution and I tender

5 these before the Court as Exhibit D81, I think it is -- 88, is

6 it? There are three copies for the Court and I understand there

7 is no objection. If one could be put in front of the witness?

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection, Miss Hollis?

9 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: D88 will be admitted.

11 MR. KAY: If we call that D88A, in fact, it might assist because

12 there is one copy of a full scale map which shows the general

13 area which might assist the Court. We have both agreed that it

14 would be helpful if you had this full scale map for yourselves.

15 So if I submit that now as 88B and it is in colour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 88B?

17 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence 88A -- we will mark it -- and 88B

19 then are admitted.

20 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

21 Mr. Tadic, we have here a map showing the Vlasic

22 region which is to the south of the map. Can you see Travnik at

23 the bottom?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it correct that highlighted in yellow is Paljenik?

26 A. It says "Paljenik".

27 Q. "Paljenik". That, apparently, is the top of the mountain, is

28 that right?

Page 7500

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. We can see Banja Luka in the middle of this map?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. There is a road that goes down from Banja Luka near Radici

5 through Skender Vakuf, Donji Karicani, Vitovlje, joining the

6 main road fairly close to Travnik at a place called Turbe, is

7 that right, leaving the Banja Luka road at Jagare?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If you can perhaps identify for us again where it was that you

10 were stationed when you were on Vlasic Mountain?

11 A. We came to Vitovlje.

12 Q. Yes. Vitovlje?

13 A. From the direction of Skender Vakuf towards Vitovlje. That is

14 where we went.

15 Q. Was your Unit stationed at any particular base near Vitovlje?

16 A. It was in the settlement of Vitovlje. We were there for several

17 days in the school building.

18 Q. Thank you. Was that the only place where you were stationed or

19 did you also move from there elsewhere on Vlasic mountain?

20 A. They directed us to Kajin Kamen. That is what that part of it

21 was called.

22 Q. Kajin Kamen, can you tell us where that is in relation to

23 Vitovlje and Paljenik?

24 A. The line here, there is a point and then Vitovlje towards

25 Paljenic, but still more towards No. 13.

26 Q. I see. We can see just above Kosici, the figure 13.

27 A. Yes, in that area, just above Vitovlje, that is also where the

28 village Dobrotici is, but it is not on the map. It is not

Page 7501

1 written.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not think this is terribly important, is

3 it? We did have testimony weeks ago about Travnik, but unless

4 it relates to that, I do not -- we are now in 1994, are you?

5 MR. KAY: No, 1992, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 1992, excuse me. I am sorry.

7 MR. KAY: Anyway, that is all I ask. I have concluded my direct

8 examination.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Miss Hollis?

10 Cross-Examined by MISS HOLLIS

11 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

12 Q. Mr. Tadic, your father was a well-known and respected man in

13 Kozarac, was he not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In fact, when your father died everyone in Kozarac came to the

16 funeral?

17 A. Indeed, a lot of people were at the funeral, and I think that

18 about 99 per cent of all people of Kozarac did show up at the

19 funeral.

20 Q. Your mother was also a well-known and respected woman in the

21 community, was she not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Your house was on the main street, the main business street, of

24 Kozarac?

25 A. Marsala Tita Street, No. 36.

26 Q. Because of your mother and father, in large part, the Tadic

27 family was very well known in Kozarac, were you not?

28 A. Yes.

Page 7502

1 Q. Your brother Dusko Tadic was well known in Kozarac because of

2 his karate activities, is that correct?

3 A. Not only because of that.

4 Q. For what other things was he well known in Kozarac?

5 A. He had a cafe and he also lived in Kozarac.

6 Q. He was very well known as a very accomplished sportsman, is that

7 correct?

8 A. You could say so.

9 Q. He had a karate club or class and often had, perhaps, even 90

10 students at a time, is that right?

11 A. He had classes of karate and also he had registered a club which

12 was called Borac in Kozarac, but it was a chain. I also had one

13 by the same name but in Banja Luka.

14 Q. Many of his students in these karate classes were Muslim men, is

15 that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I believe you testified that your brother opened his cafe in

18 Kozarac at the end of 1990 or perhaps the beginning of 1991?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. His cafe in Kozarac was a very popular place, I believe you

21 testified?

22 A. For the younger people mostly.

23 Q. After your brother supposedly received this threatening letter,

24 your brother and his family did not leave Kozarac, did they?

25 A. No.

26 Q. They were not killed?

27 A. No.

28 Q. Instead, some short time later he opened this popular cafe of

Page 7503

1 his, is that right?

2 A. Yes, he had already been preparing these materials to open it

3 up.

4 Q. You testified that you yourself were not interested in politics

5 and you thought politics could even be dangerous, is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The SDS was a political party, was it not?

9 A. It was a movement and then it turned into a party. That is how

10 I see it.

11 Q. It was a party that advocated Serb unity and a common state?

12 A. Probably, but I was not taking part in the activities of that

13 party.

14 Q. You were not aware that the SDS advocated Serb unity and a

15 common state?

16 A. Yes, I knew that, but I did not participate in the activities of

17 the party.

18 Q. Do you recall the time period when these parties were being

19 established and when Milosevic became a very popular person, a

20 very popular politician?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall during that time period that pictures of him could

23 be seen all over Bosnia?

24 A. Yes, everywhere.

25 Q. Mr. Milosevic was perceived as someone who stood up for the

26 desire of Serbs to be united, is that not correct?

27 A. You could say so.

28 Q. Mr. Milosevic also made it clear that Serbs were really one

Page 7504

1 people and that national or republic borders could not separate

2 them, is that not correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During this time period many Serbs were naming their newly born

5 sons after Milosevic, were they not?

6 A. It is possible, but I do not know that.

7 Q. Did you or your brother Dusko consider naming any of your

8 children after Milosevic?

9 A. It never crossed my mind.

10 Q. During this same time period Serbs began to wear what could be

11 considered nationalist symbols such as two headed eagles, did

12 they not?

13 A. What period of time?

14 Q. During this period of time when nationalism was becoming more of

15 an issue, Mr. Milosevic was becoming more popular?

16 A. Yes, many of them did.

17 Q. Many of them to show their Serb identity also began to wear

18 symbols of the Orthodox church, did they not?

19 A. Yes, the same as Muslims wore symbols of Islam and Croats Croat

20 symbols. So certain Serbs who were more nationalist and

21 orientation, they wore Serbian insignia.

22 Q. During your testimony you have talked about certain dates and

23 times in 1992. I would like to go back to some of those. In

24 April 1992 did your brother Dusko accompany you when you took

25 Mira Tadic and the family to the village of Kozice?

26 A. No.

27 Q. On 29th April did you drive to Kozice to pick up Mira Tadic and

28 the family?

Page 7505

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of how Mira Tadic and the

3 family made their way from Kozice back to Kozarac?

4 A. I do not remember.

5 Q. Did Mira Tadic and the family go with you when you went to

6 Kozarac on 1st May?

7 A. No.

8 Q. I believe you testified that, to your recollection, your brother

9 Dusko and his family came to your home on 3rd or 4th May 1992,

10 is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did your brother and his family remain in your home on 3rd, 4th,

13 5th and 6th May?

14 A. I did not understand.

15 Q. To your recollection, did Dusko and his family remain with you

16 in your home in Banja Luka on 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th May 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It was after that that they moved to this house on Koste Jarica

19 Street?

20 A. That was near my apartment, and during those days they were

21 going there to prepare the house so that they could move in

22 there. All the works around the renovations were done by a

23 friend of mine, Hamdija Besirevic. He is a Muslim and he is a

24 house painter and so he did that.

25 Q. This is the house on Koste Jarica Street that we are talking

26 about?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. You said that they lived in the basement of that house. When

Page 7506

1 you say the "basement" do you mean that they lived in the ground

2 floor area or did they live in rooms that were actually below

3 ground?

4 A. Below the ground, looking from the front of the building, of the

5 house, from the street.

6 Q. As you came around to the back to enter into the area where they

7 lived, was that level with the ground at that point or did you

8 actually have to go down below the ground?

9 A. You turn around the house, there is a concrete and then you

10 enter into those rooms there.

11 Q. So those are on the ground level in the back of the house?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You spoke of the blockade of Kozarac beginning, I believe you

14 said, on 22nd May. Is that your memory of when that began?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You were not in Kozarac on 23rd May, were you?

17 A. I was on 21st.

18 Q. Right. You were not there on 22nd May, correct?

19 A. I could not go into Kozarac.

20 Q. You were not in Kozarac on 23rd, is that correct?

21 A. No, on 22nd nobody could enter Kozarac and it was difficult to

22 get out too because on the one side it was blocked by the

23 Serbian military and the police and on the inside by the Muslim

24 units, by the Muslims.

25 Q. You heard that from whom?

26 A. I was seeing those checkpoints even earlier when I was coming

27 there, they existed, from the direction of Prijedor at the

28 entrance of Kozarac, also when you leave, where Mrakovica and

Page 7507

1 towards Kozarusa and towards Banja Luka by the old road in

2 Kamicani.

3 Q. These various checkpoints that you are talking about, who were

4 manning these checkpoints?

5 A. The Muslim young men who were the members of the Territorial

6 Defence of BH, they had insignia with the army BH on it.

7 Q. Where were the Serb checkpoints located?

8 A. The Serbian checkpoint was in Orlovci, but the point from Banja

9 Luka was still not there at the time. It was only around the

10 22nd.

11 Q. So, prior to 22nd when you were travelling to Kozarac you also

12 travelled to Prijedor?

13 A. On the 21st it was the last time that I was in Kozarac, but

14 I did not go to Prijedor.

15 Q. On prior visits to Kozarac in April and May 1992, did you go to

16 Prijedor on any of those visits?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On 23rd May you did not travel with your brother from Kozarac to

19 Banja Luka, is that correct?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You did not meet him upon his arrival in Banja Luka?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. You met him when he first arrived or he came to your house?

24 A. When he arrived he stopped over at my place, and then went up to

25 his family, because as you come into Banja Luka first you come

26 to my apartment and then Milosa Duica Street, Koste Jarica

27 Street, where he was.

28 Q. So he came to your house at some point after his arrival ----

Page 7508

1 A. To my apartment.

2 Q. --- in Banja Luka?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall what time it was that he came to your house on

5 23rd May?

6 A. Sometime in the afternoon.

7 Q. Do you recall how long he stayed with you?

8 A. A very short period of time.

9 Q. When you began performing your TO duties, I believe you said it

10 was in April 1992, is that correct?

11 A. 5th April.

12 Q. Who was it who contacted you and told you that you were

13 obligated to perform these duties?

14 A. I worked in Cajavec before that and I was in the civilian

15 defence. When I stopped working I could not be attached to the

16 Cajavec any more. I had to report to one of those Local

17 Communes, because there was a person in charge of the military

18 affairs within every company.

19 Q. So who was it who actually informed you that you had to report

20 for TO duties in April?

21 A. Well, the one person in charge in the Cajavec, he told me that

22 when you leave the company you had to turn in everything. There

23 was a uniform with a hat and a jacket, and you had to turn it

24 in. When I turned it in he said: "You have to report to the

25 civilian defence, not to the Local Commune, and you will belong

26 to the Territorial Defence", which is also the civilian defence.

27 Q. So you turned your uniform and all of your equipment in to your

28 company?

Page 7509

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What uniform and equipment did you have?

3 A. Where?

4 Q. For your company?

5 A. A blue uniform, which insignia, it is the civilian defence and a

6 blue jacket and shoes.

7 Q. When you reported to the Local Commune, do you remember the

8 position of the person to whom you reported?

9 A. He was in charge of the Territorial Defence of the Local Commune

10 Starcevici. His name was Vaso Grozdanic.

11 Q. At that time you were now again issued a uniform and equipment?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you at any time during your TO service issued a uniform and

14 equipment?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you were issued this uniform, what kind of uniform were you

17 issued?

18 A. A camouflage uniform, it was.

19 Q. When you say a "camouflage uniform", what colours were in this

20 camouflage?

21 A. Similar to like NATO is wearing, but they were multi-coloured.

22 They were camouflage uniforms, and that uniform I did not get

23 from the TO Unit, but myself and this Vaso Grozdanic went to the

24 director of the company called Vitaminka, because there was a

25 problem with uniforms. Not all soldiers had uniforms. They

26 were old JNA uniforms.

27 Q. But this company had these camouflage uniforms?

28 A. No, they invoiced 10 uniforms through this company that was

Page 7510

1 making military uniforms. So I got one, he got another one and

2 others got others.

3 Q. Again this camouflage uniform would have been one that had

4 browns, blacks and greens in it, are they the colours that we

5 are talking about?

6 A. I would not say there were black, they were greens, there were

7 all kinds of colours, but less of the black.

8 Q. Did you also get a hat with this uniform?

9 A. Yes, you get all with the uniform, a hat also.

10 Q. The hat was also camouflage?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. What kind of weapon were you issued for your duties with the TO?

13 A. Automatic rifle.

14 Q. Did you receive ammunition as well?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How much ammunition?

17 A. A complete charge of four and the fifth cartridge was in the

18 rifle itself with also the cleaning supplies.

19 Q. I am not quite sure I understand. How many bullets did you

20 actually receive?

21 A. Four cartridges by 30 bullets, so that is 120, and fifth was

22 another 30, so in total 150 bullets.

23 Q. Your job while you were in the TO was to protect certain

24 buildings in Banja Luka, is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Those buildings included Orthodox church, is that correct?

27 A. Yes, in Banja Luka.

28 Q. Did those buildings also include the mosques that were in Banja

Page 7511

1 Luka?

2 A. In the part where I was, where my Unit was stationed, there were

3 no mosques.

4 Q. Do you know if other TO units in Banja Luka had the job of

5 protecting the mosques there?

6 A. I do not know, probably, but I think that they did not preserve

7 them very well. If they did, they did not protect them very

8 well.

9 Q. They were all destroyed, were they not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When was it, do you recall the date, that you were actually

12 issued with your weapon?

13 A. I signed for the weapon several days after I joined the

14 Territorial Defence Unit, so it could have been 7th or 10th

15 April.

16 Q. How much later did you actually get your uniform?

17 A. Maybe it was about 10 days, approximately.

18 Q. On the 23rd May did you meet with any of the Muslims who

19 supposedly left Kozarac and came to Banja Luka on that date?

20 A. Not on the 23rd, but it could have been 25th, 6th, something

21 like that.

22 Q. Can you tell us the names of those people that you met with,

23 those Muslims?

24 A. Yes, I can.

25 Q. Please.

26 A. Adem Kahrimanovic, I saw him personally and I sat down with him

27 and drank coffee. We talked, so .....

28 Q. Do you know where Mr. Kahrimanovic is today?

Page 7512

1 A. I heard that he is in Austria.

2 Q. Thank you. From 23rd May onwards, while the attack continued in

3 Kozarac, were you with your brother Dusko every hour of every

4 day that he was in Banja Luka?

5 A. On 23rd, it was not the date of the attack on Kozarac; it was

6 24th, it was a Sunday.

7 Q. During the days, the several days, that this attack on Kozarac

8 lasted were you with your brother every hour of every one of

9 those days?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Were you with your brother every hour of every evening during

12 those days?

13 A. Not all the time.

14 Q. Did you actually spend the night with him every night when he

15 slept?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You talked about a first visit that you made to Kozarac.

18 I believe you indicated that on that visit you and your brother

19 walked on the road from the Omarska train station to Lamovita,

20 is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What would be the distance that you would have walked from the

23 train station to Lamovita?

24 A. Approximately three kilometres, four.

25 Q. During that walk from the train station to Lamovita, did you

26 ever have to show your papers to any police or military along

27 that route?

28 A. No.

Page 7513

1 Q. I believe you indicated that there were soldiers in Lamovita?

2 A. They were everywhere. It was in Omarska, in the town and also

3 in Lamovita -- I mean, in the town of Omarska and also a unit

4 was also located in Lamovita.

5 Q. What unit was it that was located in Lamovita, if you know?

6 A. I do not know which unit it was, but it was a unit from that

7 area.

8 Q. These soldiers that you saw all over in Omarska and in Lamovita,

9 what kind of uniforms were they wearing?

10 A. Some had camouflage, some had old Yugoslav, some had none and

11 had weapons. So that is how it was.

12 Q. When you say the "old Yugoslav" uniform, you are talking about

13 what is referred to as the SMB uniform?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What kind of weapons did these people that you saw in uniform

16 have?

17 A. Some had PAP rifle, semi-automatic, some automatic with wooden

18 butt, some with the ones that can be disassembled, so different

19 ones.

20 Q. When you say a "PAP rifle", do you mean PAP?

21 A. A semi-automatic, polu automatska puska, PAP.

22 Q. When you were in Lamovita, did you or your brother have to show

23 your papers to any of the soldiers in Lamovita?

24 A. We did not right away. We did not go to that unit in Lamovita

25 right away. We went to a young man who worked at Dusko's as a

26 waiter. We went to his house.

27 Q. When you went to get the gas certificate, is that when you went

28 to the soldiers?

Page 7514

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who was it who actually gave you this gas certificate?

3 A. It was not issued for me, but somebody gave it to Dusko. He was

4 probably a uniformed officer, the responsible person who was

5 there. I did not know him personally.

6 Q. When this person gave the gas certificate to Dusko, during this

7 transaction were either you or your brother required to show

8 your papers?

9 A. He said that he would have to go to see his family there and he

10 was approved 10 litres of petrol for that purpose.

11 Q. Who said he would have to go see his family? Are you talking

12 about your brother Dusko said that?

13 A. Yes, not his family, his family home.

14 Q. When you were in Kozarac that day you talked about seeing a tank

15 driver there and having a beer with that tank driver?

16 A. No, I said I saw a tank at the entrance to Kozarac. I saw a

17 tank driver, a blond man called -- his name was Milan Vlacina.

18 I did not know his name at the time, but we were introduced. He

19 actually came up to our family home when we passed, when we

20 reached the house, and then he came up to us.

21 Q. Who introduced him to you?

22 A. He came alone. I think that Dusko did not know him either.

23 I am not sure that this man knew him either, but he was a

24 soldier of the Republika Srpska. One could see immediately that

25 he was a soldier and he stated his name. So we exchanged a few

26 words. I went into my part of the house, my business premises.

27 Before he came, I saw that a shell had fallen on my

28 part of this premise, of the business, and part of the packaging

Page 7515

1 and the crates. So a lot of them were thrown around in front,

2 some were mine, some belonging to other people probably. There

3 were these crates. So I moved them to the left, so as to cover

4 them. When he came I brought four beers and we had them in

5 Dusko's cafe at the bar.

6 Q. What kind of a uniform was this man Vlacina wearing?

7 A. I think it was the old Yugoslav uniform.

8 Q. Do you know a woman named Nada Vlacina, a friend of your brother

9 Dusko?

10 A. I met them when Dusko was moving to Prijedor. When I came to

11 visit Dusko in his flat I met her then.

12 Q. Did you ever meet her husband?

13 A. That man was her husband.

14 Q. The man in Kozarac was her husband?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On this first visit to Kozarac when you left Lamovita that day,

17 I believe you said that you went to the crossroads for Lamovita

18 and the Prijedor/Banja Luka road and there were some police at

19 that crossroads?

20 A. There were army people, there was the police, there were both

21 military men and policemen at the crossroads there.

22 Q. Did these policemen, whether they were military or civilian

23 police, ask to see your papers or Dusko's papers?

24 A. No, because this man called Pile Timarac was with us. He drove

25 us to this crossroads. They probably knew him and probably

26 those people came from that same unit. When we were looking for

27 the fuel, they knew us, simply nobody asked for anything, and so

28 we stopped a lorry and we went to Banja Luka with it.

Page 7516

1 Q. So at that time Pile Timarac was also in the military?

2 A. I think he came from Sisak or somewhere like that. I do not

3 know whether he was a soldier before that, but then he had not

4 been mobilized either because he was not wearing a uniform.

5 Q. On this first occasion when you and your brother went to

6 Kozarac, what were you and your brother wearing?

7 A. Civilian clothes, jeans and a jacket, the first time I went.

8 Q. Your brother was not wearing a uniform on that occasion?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You have mentioned Pile Timarac several times. What is his

11 proper first name?

12 A. Timarac -- I knew, but I have forgotten it -- Milenko, I think

13 it was, Milenko Timarac, but we had a problem that day in

14 Kozarac when we got there. Before this Milan Vlacina came up, a

15 large truck appeared and stopped there; and as we were standing

16 in front of the house, a little lower down near the barber's

17 shop, maybe five, 10 metres lower down, a soldier, a heavily

18 built man -- I think he had a sergeant insignia -- and he

19 pointed a rifle at me and he asked who we were and what we were

20 looking for. I said that this was our house, our family house.

21 He looked at us strangely and then I said: "We are Serbs". He

22 wanted our papers. I showed him my ID card and he said: "What

23 are you looking for here? Get away. You must not roam around

24 in civilian clothes. You could get killed". So I said: "All

25 right", and we got into the car and left.

26 Q. So you got into the car and you went back then to Lamovita? So

27 it was after this first visit in Kozarac that you then went back

28 to Lamovita and from there then you returned to Banja Luka?

Page 7517

1 A. Yes, to Banja Luka.

2 Q. You did this all in the same day?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. To your knowledge, during the time period of May, June and July

5 1992, how many different kinds of uniforms did your brother

6 Dusko have?

7 A. Could you please repeat the question?

8 Q. Certainly. To your knowledge, during the time period of May,

9 June and July 1992, how many different kinds of uniforms did

10 your brother Dusko have?

11 A. Two.

12 Q. Can you tell us what those uniforms looked like?

13 A. The first uniform was when we went to Kozarac the second time

14 I was wearing my uniform, and Dusko was wearing a camouflage

15 uniform, a summer camouflage uniform. It was not a real uniform

16 actually, but camouflage clothes that are worn over uniforms

17 which I had given him. It could not be used as a uniform. You

18 could wear it on top of your uniform. It had a hood. It was

19 brown, spotted, with spots.

20 Q. You had given him this uniform?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall when it was that you gave him this uniform?

23 A. Before leaving for Kozarac.

24 Q. Can you tell us what year or what month that was?

25 A. The second time we went to Kozarac.

26 Q. So it was in what month of 1992?

27 A. June, the month of June.

28 Q. So you gave him that uniform at that time?

Page 7518

1 A. In Banja Luka.

2 Q. What was the other kind of uniform that your brother had?

3 A. Another time I saw him wearing a uniform, it was a policeman's

4 uniform. That was when he was mobilized for the reserve police

5 force of Prijedor. It was a classical uniform of the traffic

6 police.

7 Q. You said on your second visit to Kozarac that you and your

8 brother were both wearing a uniform; your brother wearing this

9 uniform you had given him. What kind of uniform were you

10 wearing on that occasion?

11 A. I had, I think it was, some kind of a camouflage uniform. It

12 was a camouflage uniform. The camouflage uniform I received, as

13 I said, from the company. Do you understand?

14 Q. Yes, I do. Thank you. Now on the first time that you went to Kozarac,

15 were you carrying any weapons with you?

16 A. I had a personal pistol, my own personal property. It was left

17 by my father, 765, as a token of remembrance.

18 Q. What kind of weapon did your brother take with him?

19 A. He did not have any weapon.

20 Q. On this second visit to Kozarac, what kind of weapon did you

21 take with you?

22 A. I took an automatic rifle.

23 Q. What kind of weapon did your brother take with him?

24 A. He had an automatic rifle.

25 Q. I believe you said it was the second occasion when you loaded up

26 some things in a truck and then actually drove in the truck back

27 from Kozarac to Banja Luka, is that correct?

28 A. I omitted to mention that the first time we were there Dusko

Page 7519

1 from the loft of our family house took down a hunting rifle and

2 an automatic rifle, and we took that to Lamovita. We left the

3 hunting rifle with Pile and we took with us the automatic

4 rifle. That was the first time. The second time we went with

5 weapons. We got to Omarska and we looked for a lorry for me and

6 him to transport our things to Banja Luka.

7 Q. You went back from Kozarac to Banja Luka in this truck, is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. On your return trip from Kozarac to Banja Luka, were you stopped

11 anywhere along the road to be checked?

12 A. No, no one stopped us because the driver was wearing a uniform.

13 He was from Omarska. People knew him and we too were wearing

14 uniforms, so no one stopped us.

15 Q. You have talked about how your brother acquired this automatic

16 weapon. Is it your testimony that you were present when this

17 young man supposedly gave the weapon to your brother?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So you were not present when that event supposedly ----

20 A. No, I was not present, but I gave him a licence for that rifle

21 so that nobody would take it away from him.

22 Q. Did you see your brother Dusko Tadic the day that he went to

23 Trnopolje with Jovo Samardzija?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. On the day that he went to Trnopolje with Jovo Samardzija what

26 was your brother wearing?

27 A. Civilian clothes.

28 Q. On that date did he have a weapon with him?

Page 7520

1 A. I saw him and I cannot say whether he had a weapon because I do

2 not know. They did not go that very moment because Jovo

3 Samardzija's house and the house of my wife's parents is about 50

4 or 80 metres away from one another, and that is where I saw them

5 because I saw Jovo. Dusko was with me. Jovo came to ask

6 whether one of us would go with him to Trnopolje. I could not.

7 I had other obligations and he asked Dusko. Dusko said: "All

8 right, I will go" and they went. I did not go with them so I do

9 not know.

10 Q. So was it your understanding that they were going to leave

11 directly from where you were and go to the train station to go

12 to Trnopolje?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You have talked about the time period when you were mobilized.

15 At that time were you given additional uniforms?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you given an additional weapon?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you given any additional cartridges of ammunition?

20 A. No, except what I already said.

21 Q. You testified that your brother went to Prijedor on 15th June

22 1992. On that occasion you did not go to Prijedor with him, is

23 that correct?

24 A. I said that he went on 16th June.

25 Q. So he did not go on 15th, he went on 16th?

26 A. Me? Dusko went on 16th of June to Prijedor. That was the day

27 of the general mobilization for all people in the Autonomous

28 Region of Krajina; that was what it was proclaimed as.

Page 7521

1 Q. On that date, on 16th, when he went to Prijedor, did you

2 accompany him when he went to Prijedor?

3 A. No, but before that he called from my flat, he called a man

4 asking him to fix it so that he could join up with the reserve

5 traffic police, because he feared that if he went to Prijedor

6 and the place he lived in belonged to Prijedor, so he feared

7 that he would have to join up the 5th Kozara Brigade, which was

8 located in Slavonia. It was a combat unit which was on the

9 front already.

10 Q. After 16th June you continued to live in Banja Luka, is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You never moved to Prijedor, did you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. In 1992 did you keep any kind of daily calendar?

16 A. Sorry, I did not understand you.

17 Q. Let us try this again. In 1992 did you keep any type of daily

18 calendar?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you keep any type of daily diary?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Since these events occurred, have you spoken with anyone to

23 refresh your memory about the dates you have testified to?

24 A. No, I remember these things by certain events that are linked to

25 those days. For example, on 29th April everybody knew the Serb

26 militia took over authority in Prijedor. Everyone knew that.

27 So in relation to that date I could remember when I went to

28 Kozarac and things like that, when my son was born. So I knew

Page 7522

1 when I came from Vlasic, I cannot say exactly the day and hour,

2 but in that period these are the events that serve as

3 guidelines.

4 Q. So, have you spoken with anyone to help refresh your memory

5 about these dates and times you have testified to?

6 A. Several times I was interviewed by certain TV stations, but they

7 did not ask me ----

8 Q. Do you recall ----

9 A. --- about those dates, dates.

10 Q. So you did not discuss those dates with them?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why do you not repeat the question so that we

12 can make sure Mr. Tadic heard you?

13 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. You are not hearing anything that is

14 being said, Mr. Tadic?

15 A. No translation. I am hearing French.

16 Q. Are you getting a translation now?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So, you did not speak with any of these television journalists

19 about these dates?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you recall from what television stations these television

22 journalists were from?

23 A. I could try to remember. The first TV station was Spiegel from

24 Germany.

25 Q. Do you recall when it was that you spoke with them?

26 A. A little after Dusko's arrest, when they came to Banja Luka,

27 they looked me up.

28 Q. Do you remember what month and year it was that they came to

Page 7523

1 Banja Luka and looked you up?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. When was that?

4 A. It was February, end of February.

5 Q. That was what year?

6 A. '94.

7 Q. When your brother was arrested in Germany, did you talk to

8 anyone at that time about the dates that you have testified to?

9 A. No, but I learnt about his arrest from a friend, a Muslim, who

10 was with me in the unit. He was a Muslim and he was mobilized

11 into the Serb Army. He saw it on television and told me, asking

12 me: "What is this Tadic to you?" I said: "Whom?" and then

13 I said: "He is my brother".

14 Q. Did you talk with your brother about these dates after he was

15 arrested in Germany?

16 A. Not the dates, but his arrest, yes, and about how it could have

17 happened so. More recently, while he was in prison in Germany

18 I had no contact with him. I could not contact him until he was

19 transferred to The Hague when we were allowed to communicate on

20 the phone. We spoke generally about everything, but not about

21 dates in particular.

22 Q. So you spoke about the events in the opstina but not about

23 particular dates?

24 A. I may have said something, but I cannot remember. Maybe we did

25 mention something, but I cannot recollect.

26 Q. Can you tell us how many times you may have spoken with your

27 brother since he has been here in the prison in The Hague?

28 A. Maybe 10, 20 times.

Page 7524

1 Q. Have you spoken with Mira Tadic?

2 A. On Mondays when I had a connection, usually it was Mondays.

3 Q. Have you spoken with Mira Tadic to help refresh your memory as

4 to these dates you have testified about?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Have you spoken to any other Defence witnesses to help refresh

7 yourself about the dates you have testified about?

8 A. No, I do not know many of those people in person. Many people

9 that testified in the case of Dusko Tadic I do not know.

10 Q. You have from time to time been involved with transporting those

11 witnesses to and from various locations in the Banja Luka area,

12 have you not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On how many occasions would you say you have done that?

15 A. Many, on many occasions.

16 Q. Do you remember the names of any of those Defence witnesses that

17 you have transported back and forth?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us some of those names, please?

20 A. When (redacted) returned from

21 The Hague and Mrs. Zorica was with us, so I drove him to

22 Kozarac, because the drivers who had brought them from Belgrade

23 were tired. So I drove them there together with Zorica and then

24 we immediately came back.

25 Q. Do you recall any other names of Defence witnesses that you have

26 transported?

27 A. I did not transport the witnesses when they came to The Hague.

28 This was done by Dragan and Mr. Pietro mostly, in most cases.

Page 7525

1 Q. Have you read any documents concerning this case to help refresh

2 your memory about dates?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Have you read any witness statements?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Have you been told about the contents of any witness statements?

7 A. No, I did not have the chance to attend the hearing of witnesses

8 that Mr. Wladimiroff conducted, the investigations.

9 I frequently drove them and each time when they spoke to the

10 witnesses they asked me several times actually to move away, not

11 to listen to the investigation. Then I realised that that was

12 the rule, so I would go back to my car and wait.

13 Q. Have you watched any of the television proceedings of this case?

14 A. In Banja Luka one cannot watch the Bosnia-Herzegovina television

15 station. The part of the city that I live in is under a hill,

16 and I think us and our signal, our relay station at Kozara was

17 destroyed by NATO pact raids by Tomahawk rockets so that we can

18 only watch the S channel, that is, the Serb channel in the

19 Republika Srspka. We can watch Zagreb, the first programme some

20 people, second programme as well. At times, in the evenings,

21 when they had a programme, "Slika Na Slika" (Picture Against

22 Picture), these were not telecasts of the trial but just reports

23 that the trial had begun and things like that, but nobody could

24 really tell me precisely what was happening.

25 Q. Did these reports ever summarise any of the testimony that had

26 been given?

27 A. No, and I was disappointed that no one from the Serb television

28 or the media did not want to report anything in connection with

Page 7526

1 Dusko.

2 Q. Were you ever told not to watch any of these proceedings on

3 television?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You ----

6 A. Sorry, I did not know I would be a witness until recently.

7 Q. You have testified that while you served in the Vlasic Mountain

8 area that you did not take part in any attacks on convoys of

9 civilians that were going through that area, is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. You have testified that you never saw any attacks take place on

12 convoys of civilians that were going through that area, is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes, but I heard when I was on leave, when I was resting, so

15 there was one day on duty, one day there, so they said that a

16 Commander of one of those units ordered some to turn

17 around. There was a luxury car and people were passing through

18 Mount Vlasic.

19 Q. So you heard that some vehicles were turned around?

20 A. It was a luxury car. It was a passenger vehicle.

21 Q. That is the only thing you ever heard?

22 A. Not the only thing.

23 Q. Were you aware that on 17th August a very large convoy came

24 through that area, perhaps 55 cars, maybe as many as 15 trucks,

25 six to eight buses?

26 A. It is possible that it was then when they said that it happened

27 that some vehicles were kidnapped, but people were released and

28 sent to Travnik, but I was in Vlasic until 23rd August.

Page 7527

1 Q. On 17th August you are not aware that this large convoy

2 containing Muslims and Croats from Sanski Most was stopped and

3 women were taken off the convoy?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You never heard of that?

6 A. I did not hear that, but after I went back to Banja Luka I heard

7 that people were taken from Prijedor towards Travnik.

8 Q. So you are not aware that on this date, on 17th August, it was

9 in the Vitovlje area that these women were taken off the bus by

10 Serb soldiers and local Serb men?

11 A. I do not know. Again I repeat, I heard that some luxury cars

12 had been taken and then there were -- it was ordered they be

13 returned, but I said about Kajin Kamen and near Dobrotici, it is

14 a few kilometres from Vitovlje.

15 Q. You are not aware of the massacre of Muslim men that occurred on

16 the Vlasic Mountain area on 21st August?

17 A. When I was up there I did not know, but when I came to Banja

18 Luka I heard about something, but I did not know.

19 Q. You heard about the massacre on 21st August?

20 A. They were talking about that there was something, but I did not

21 know what, apparently, that there was something there and that

22 some young man survived and so he reported on that.

23 Q. You were aware, were you not, during the time you were in the

24 Vlasic Mountain area that convoys routinely went through with

25 Muslims and Croats who were being expelled?

26 A. I heard that for the first time when those cars, apparently, had

27 been taken, and after that I heard more when I came back from

28 Banja Luka to my unit.

Page 7528

1 Q. While you were in place you had no idea that civilians, Muslims

2 and Serb civilians, were being forced to leave buses and walk

3 across the confrontation line to freedom? You had no awareness

4 of that?

5 A. I did not because there was shelling from both sides so there

6 was great fear. There was a shift before me. A young man was

7 slaughtered on the part of Croats and then four young men from

8 Dobrotici had their heads cut off, and then they were calling

9 from the other side: "Send us the others because we can play

10 soccer with their heads. They do not go straight". So we had

11 no experience in combat.

12 Q. So you knew about this event, but you did not know anything

13 about the civilians who were being forced to cross the

14 confrontation lines?

15 A. No. I knew about this event in Dobrotici because the unit in

16 which these men were had left their positions and then they were

17 ordered back to those positions.

18 Q. You have indicated that you have spoken to several TV

19 journalists and you mentioned Spiegel TV as one of those

20 television stations. Do you recall any of the other television

21 stations that you have spoken to?

22 A. Yes. I do not know whether it was the BBC, but it is a Madam

23 Pauletta. She was working on a film so she did an interview

24 with all of us, the whole family.

25 Q. When was that?

26 A. Let me try to recall. It could have been maybe four or five

27 months ago.

28 Q. So that would have been late spring or summer of this year?

Page 7529

1 A. It was this year.

2 Q. What other television stations journalists have you spoken with?

3 A. Just before the opening of the trial there was terrible pressure

4 brought to bear on us. Many TV stations would come and through

5 the press centre they asked to talk to members of the family.

6 We tried to avoid many of them. We did not want to talk about

7 it, knowing what journalists are like, but then we had to talk

8 to some. There was no way of avoiding them. They would come to

9 our house.

10 Q. Do you ever go to the Hotel Bosna in Banja Luka and watch

11 television there?

12 A. No, I am not working anywhere. I do not -- I really cannot

13 afford to go and have a drink in a restaurant. I am a married

14 man. I have three children. There are five of us and I really

15 cannot afford much entertainment. I went to the Bosna Hotel

16 only when Mr. Wladimiroff and Miss Sylvia came to Banja Luka, to

17 be there, to drive them some place, if necessary, and to give

18 them a hand.

19 Q. While you were waiting for them there, did you ever watch

20 television there?

21 A. No, in that part, in the lobby, there was no TV set, and in the

22 piano bar there were mostly spots were being shown via

23 satellite. There was a TV set, but mostly foreign programmes

24 were being screened because they probably had a satellite dish.

25 Q. Do you visit your brother Mladen in Kozarac?

26 A. I go to Kozarac, but the last three or four months I went when

27 the Defence team would come and I went with them. I would go

28 there. We would say "Hello". I would visit my mother. She

Page 7530

1 does not have a TV set upstairs. Mladen does have one in his

2 business premises. I watched just once briefly the trial.

3 There was a man from Prijedor. I did not know him and he was

4 not talking about Dusko but about some quite different things,

5 and we had to go because we were busy.

6 Q. You have indicated that you yourself were not interested in

7 politics, but that was not true of your brother, is that not

8 correct?

9 MR. KAY: I do not think he indicated that. I do not think he said

10 it even in those terms, your Honour.

11 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I believe he indicated: "I am not

12 interested in politics. I find them dangerous".

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He indicated that he cautioned his brother

14 about it because of the experience with his father. I think the

15 objection really goes to the way that you have characterised his

16 testimony suggesting that those words were used.

17 MISS HOLLIS: I simply asked him -- let me try it again, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Rephrase it. I remember.

19 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): You have indicated that you are not

20 interested in politics. However, that is not true of your

21 brother, is it?

22 A. Dusko Tadic was no politician of any kind. He was a man who at

23 the time sought to assist the Serb people who had come from the

24 Cazin Krajina, who had fled from Bugojno, Jajce and many other

25 places, to settle down, to provide some kind of food for them

26 via the Red Cross. As far as I heard, he was a member of the

27 SDS but he held no position in it. Afterwards, he participated

28 in the revival effort in Kozarac, in the accommodation of these

Page 7531

1 people, in assisting the refugees from Cazin Krajina to survive.

2 Q. But is it not true that your brother himself says that he was

3 one of the first members of the SDS in opstina Prijedor?

4 A. To be a member of SDS does not mean to say that one is a

5 politician.

6 Q. Is it not true that he characterises himself as an earnest

7 member of the SDS?

8 A. It is possible because he joined the SDS, I think, his wife and

9 Mladen -- I do not know exactly the date -- simply out of some

10 kind of fear, probably, because there were three parties at the

11 time. The first in the territory of Prijedor or, rather, the

12 former Bosnia-Herzegovina, first to be registered were SDA,

13 HDZ. These were nationalist parties and afterwards the SDS was

14 formed and it was logical that he would side with that party.

15 Simply, probably, I cannot claim what his thoughts were, but

16 I assume that he joined for the simple reason to protect himself

17 against threats, possible problems that he might have in

18 connection with his family, because he was living in an

19 environment in which 95 per cent of the inhabitants were Muslims

20 and they were all members of the SDA, with the exception of a

21 small number who were members of the civilian forum.

22 Q. He was entrusted with organising the SDS plebiscite in Kozarac,

23 is that not correct?

24 A. I was not present, but I heard that that was so, that they

25 organised a plebiscite.

26 Q. Your brother was entrusted with organising that plebiscite -- is

27 that not what you testified to earlier?

28 A. Probably he was given such an assignment. I do not know who

Page 7532

1 gave him this assignment because, as I said, I was not living on

2 the territory of Prijedor and I was not a member of the SDS in

3 Prijedor. I heard that they had organised this plebiscite in

4 the Orthodox church in Kozarac.

5 Q. So you are saying that you did not have personal knowledge of a

6 great deal of what was going on in the opstina Prijedor?

7 A. I cannot know everything. I do not know about this thing.

8 I was not following everything that was happening. I was not a

9 politician or anyone with any kind of a duty to follow

10 developments. I attended -- I went to Kozarac prior to the war

11 for one simple reason, to see my mother, my family, to build

12 these business premises. I wanted to earn a living, to go into

13 business. That is all. Everything that I heard in the process

14 I have told you.

15 Q. In addition to organising this plebiscite, your brother also

16 held a series of political positions in Kozarac, did he not?

17 A. I think he was Secretary of the local office, the Local Commune.

18 Q. He was also President of the party in Kozarac?

19 A. That is not a political function.

20 Q. He was also President of the party in Kozarac, was he not?

21 A. I do not know how somebody can be the President of a party when

22 there are not enough inhabitants for membership. At the time in

23 Kozarac there were not so many inhabitants. This is the first

24 time for me to hear that he was President of the party. I know

25 that he was Secretary of the Local Commune, that he worked in

26 the Red Cross, that he was in the Kozarac police when the police

27 station was formed in Kozarac. That is all.

28 Q. He was also a representative to the Prijedor Municipal Assembly,

Page 7533

1 was he not?

2 A. On behalf of the Local Commune, yes.

3 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, this may be a convenient time.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

5 (4.00 p.m.)

6 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

7 (4.20 p.m.)

8 MR. KAY: Your Honour, before the witness is brought in, there is a

9 redaction that is required at 15.40.20 which I believe your

10 Honour already knows about.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, is that the one you gave me?


13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, that has been signed.

14 MR. KAY: I am grateful.

15 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Kay, while we are waiting, this mountain over

16 which the unfortunate people were taken and then the incident

17 occurred, does that appear on this map that you have given us?

18 MR. KAY: Yes.

19 JUDGE STEPHEN: I see Travnik.

20 MR. KAY: Can your Honour see Paljenik? I apologise.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: It is your pronunciation that misleads me.

22 MR. KAY: Paljenik, I am told.

23 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, it is the very light, the white, area that

24 you see to the -----

25 JUDGE STEPHEN: The radio towers?

26 MR. KEEGAN: Exactly. Right there. That is the top of the

27 mountain. Yes, sir. The whole region is known as Vlasic. That

28 is the particular mountain to which it refers

Page 7534

1 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

2 MR. KAY: We agree.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: While you were gone, Mr. Wladimiroff, Mr. Kay

4 was taking us through all of these names here and he was

5 pronouncing them so well.

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I missed a lot of fun!

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. Miss Hollis, you may continue.

8 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Tadic, before the break we were discussing the political

10 activities in which your brother Dusko was involved. In fact,

11 your brother Dusko was more involved in the Serb efforts in

12 opstina Prijedor than merely belonging to the SDS, is that not

13 correct?

14 A. What efforts?

15 Q. The Serb efforts to consolidate themselves and to prepare for

16 the actions that were to occur beginning in April 1992.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did your brother Dusko not discourage other Serbs in the Kozarac

19 area from co-operating with Muslims at sentry points in the

20 town?

21 A. What town?

22 Q. Kozarac.

23 A. Serbs did not have checkpoints in Kozarac, as far as I know.

24 Q. Did your brother not attempt to discourage Serbs from

25 co-operating with non-Serbs at these sentry points in Kozarac?

26 A. My brother -- Serbs in Kozarac were not minors so that they had

27 to be instructed what to do.

28 Q. Did your brother Dusko not try to organise assignments for the

Page 7535

1 Serbs for when fighting broke out in the area?

2 A. What assignments?

3 Q. Assignments that Serbs would carry out when fighting began in

4 Kozarac?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did your brother Dusko not attempt to acquire weapons for

7 himself and other Serbs in the Kozarac area?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So if your brother was involved in any of these efforts, you

10 were not aware of them, is that correct?

11 A. I was not aware of that, but many Serbs in Kozarac were -- had

12 good relations with Muslims in Kozarac. I doubt whether anybody

13 attempted, offered the Serbs in Kozarac, I mean, in the centre

14 of Kozarac to take that.

15 Q. So if your brother were involved in these efforts you did not

16 assist him in any of these efforts, is that correct?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Though you say you were not aware of these efforts, you were

19 aware, were you not, that your brother fully supported the

20 creation of Republika Srpska?

21 A. He was a member of SDS, nothing special, like everybody else.

22 Q. You are aware, are you not, that he fully supported the idea of

23 a Serb state for Serbs?

24 A. He was a member of SDS.

25 Q. That is what the SDS wanted, was it not?

26 A. Of course it wanted that all Serbs live in the same country, but

27 the Serbs wanted to live in Yugoslavia.

28 Q. That Serb country would have included the opstina of Prijedor as

Page 7536

1 well as Banja Luka, would it not?

2 A. Yes, but also Belgrade, and all parts, not only for Serbs, not a

3 life only for Serbs. We, Serbs, in the Republic Srpska wanted

4 to live in Yugoslavia, and under the constitution of Yugoslavia

5 we had a right to stay in that Yugoslavia, as far as I could

6 understand, as a constituted people in the former Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina, because everybody knows that in Bosnia-Herzegovina

8 Muslims and Serbs and Croats all live together and all had the

9 same rights and if anybody wanted to separate out from

10 Yugoslavia, then everybody else should have been given the same

11 right. The Serbs did not want to be alone. They wanted to be

12 in Yugoslavia and whether it would be Bosnia-Herzegovina or if

13 it is going to be Republika Srpska within Yugoslavia, they

14 wanted to be in Yugoslavia.

15 Q. You yourself supported that same idea, did you not, of the

16 creation of a Serbian state, a common state, for Serbs?

17 A. I would not say that. I wanted to be a Serb in Yugoslavia.

18 Q. You supported what was done to the Muslims in Kozarac, did you

19 not?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You justified what was done to the Muslims in Kozarac by the

22 Serbs, did you not?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Is it true that there are Serbs who today remember World War II

25 and the crimes that were committed against Serbs in World War

26 II?

27 A. Yes, there are.

28 Q. There are Serbs who believe that the Muslims were fascists

Page 7537

1 during World War II and were involved in the massacre of Serbs,

2 is that not correct?

3 A. Muslims did take part on the side of the fascists, but not all.

4 Q. There are Serbs who believe that the attacks on Muslims in

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992 was all about not letting the Serbs

6 be massacred again, is that not correct?

7 A. Probably, I think there are those.

8 Q. That is what you believe, is it not?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Your explanation of the destruction of Kozarac and the

11 surrounding area was that Kozarac was a hot bed of Muslim

12 fundamentalists, was it not?

13 A. One small group of Muslims were nationalists, but the majority

14 was not.

15 Q. It is your assertion that the Muslims in the Kozarac area

16 started a holy war, a jihad, against Christians, is that not

17 true?

18 A. I do not know, but they wrote that in that threatening letter to

19 Dusko.

20 Q. You charged these Muslims of Kozarac with a holy war, not only

21 against orthodox Christians, but against all Christians, is that

22 not true?

23 A. I do not charge them.

24 Q. You believe that the Serb attacks in Prijedor and elsewhere were

25 justified by past actions taken against Serbs, is that not true?

26 A. What happened in Kozarac cannot be justified by anybody on any

27 grounds, but also nobody can justify the massacre of Serbian

28 population around Konjic in the villages, so nobody can justify

Page 7538

1 a crime upon anybody else. I never advocated, neither my family

2 did, of killing, revenge and such.

3 Q. You did justify what was done to the Muslims in Kozarac because

4 you say the Muslims there started a jihad, is that not correct?

5 A. That is what they said, that they have started a jihad.

6 Q. You recall ----

7 A. I am sorry. It says in the letter that, "We are proclaiming the

8 holy jihad to the Tadic family".

9 Q. To the Tadic family?

10 A. Yes, and perhaps the other Serbs.

11 Q. The same family that was not killed after this supposed

12 threatening letter?

13 A. It was not.

14 Q. The same family that opened the popular cafe after the

15 threatening letter?

16 A. Everybody had a right to open a business ----

17 Q. The same ----

18 A. --- to start something.

19 Q. --- family that had the popular cafe that many young Muslims

20 went to in Kozarac?

21 A. I do not know if they would have done that, but probably they

22 were led by the fact that Kozarac was a town which was

23 surrounded by Serbian population, Serbian towns. It was not

24 only regarding the Tadic family what would have happened later.

25 Q. Mr. Tadic, you talked earlier about giving an interview to

26 journalists from Spiegel TV after the arrest of your brother in

27 Germany. When you gave that interview you showed the

28 journalists around the Kozarac area, did you not ----

Page 7539

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. --- and to explain to them the destruction in Kozarac you told

3 them, while waving your arms around, that there had been a holy

4 war, a jihad, by the Muslims in Kozarac, did you not?

5 A. Not then, but in '41, and it was not a holy war, jihad, as at

6 that time I was not even born, but on the monument there it says

7 clearly, "The place of the massacre over the Serb population".

8 There were 400 killed the first time and some more of Serbs.

9 They were all -- these were all Serbs from Kozarac and the

10 surrounding areas.

11 Q. You told these journalists that the holy war was against not

12 only Orthodox Christians but also a holy war against all

13 Christians, is that not correct?

14 A. I do not remember saying that.

15 Q. You told them that the centre of Muslim fundamentalism was in

16 Kozarac?

17 A. Probably, the region.

18 Q. You indicated, I believe, that perhaps the rest of the world

19 would not understand why that destruction was necessary but that

20 Serbs would?

21 A. I do not think I said that.

22 Q. Because their eyes had been opened by history?

23 A. That is the text from the monument, so that it would never be

24 that, the dead opened the eyes of the living to repeat what had

25 happened, but the same type of monument exists in several other

26 places with the same text, in Jasenovac and elsewhere.

27 Q. You took them to the monument and showed them the monument and

28 read out the insignia, is that right?

Page 7540

1 A. Yes, because that is what they wanted.

2 Q. That is how you justified what happened in Kozarac?

3 A. No.

4 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, at this time I would ask that a portion of

5 a video programme be designated Prosecution Exhibit next in line

6 which, I believe, is 360 for identification. It is a clip

7 showing a portion of what we just talked about. It is dubbed

8 over in German and we have English translations that have been

9 prepared by the Translation Department.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not remember any testimony, although there

11 may have been, about the monument there in Kozarac. Is that

12 discussed in the film?

13 MISS HOLLIS: He is going to go to a monument and I will ask him what

14 monument.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Have you shown the Prosecution 360?

16 MISS HOLLIS: We have not shown that to the Defence.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Kay.

18 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. I have not been shown it, but

19 I understand why it is being used in cross-examination. We can

20 check the translation that is provided either as we go along or

21 at a subsequent stage and raise any necessary matter.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then 360 will be admitted and played

23 subject ----

24 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour -- excuse me -- I have not offered it

25 yet, your Honour. I simply ask that it be marked 360 for

26 identification.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. It will be marked somewhere. It is

28 marked.

Page 7541

1 MISS HOLLIS: In that technical booth, I guess, it is marked. If

2 that could be played at this time? Mr. Tadic, please, if the

3 Bailiff could change and we will hand out the translations. We

4 have three copies for the Judges, a copy for the Defence, a copy

5 for the Registrar.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It may just be very technical, but once

7 something comes in, although our Rules are very liberal, it is

8 in. So if we are going to see it and we are going to get

9 translations, it is hard for me to assume that the evidence is

10 has not been admitted. However you lawyers want to do it, it is

11 fine with me. It is 360 for identification purposes.

12 MISS HOLLIS: Perhaps translation could be 360A?


14 MISS HOLLIS: Has Mr. Tadic's screen been changed for the video? If

15 we could, please, play that film clip?

16 (The video clip was played).

17 Thank you.

18 JUDGE STEPHEN: Which bit is the translated bit that we have here?

19 MISS HOLLIS: His comments only, your Honour.

20 JUDGE STEPHEN: While he is walking in the outside?

21 MISS HOLLIS: While he was parking in the cafe area.

22 JUDGE STEPHEN: He said much more than these two sentences, surely,

23 from what we heard but did not understand in German?

24 MISS HOLLIS: Our understanding from the Translation Unit is that his

25 words are only these. If there was other commentary by the

26 Germans, that was not included. We can certainly have them

27 check that again, your Honour.

28 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have great difficulty, your Honours, with these

Page 7542

1 excerpts. First of all, these translations are made from

2 German. As far as I can follow it, the German is not a

3 translation of what Ljubomir says. It is a summary of what he

4 is supposed to have said. Secondly, I have a great problem with

5 just these quotes without the context. For example, the last

6 quote, the reading in the German of what is written on the

7 monument is utterly relevant for the comment that is supposed to

8 be said by Dusko Tadic, sorry, Ljubomir Tadic. So I oppose this

9 excerpt; it is certainly not the true representation of what has

10 been said by the witness.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can we arrange to have the entire video

12 interpreted? It would be very helpful to me personally. As

13 I said, I am not familiar with the monument, what is written.

14 For completeness sake -- I think we had that objection raised at

15 one point and it went the other way. I think it was the

16 Prosecution that was objecting for completeness sake -- if you

17 intend on offering it, I think it would be helpful to us to have

18 the entire video translated.

19 MISS HOLLIS: Certainly, your Honour. We believe, again we have been

20 told, completeness relating to this witness ----


22 MISS HOLLIS: --- is complete. We did not put the other commentary

23 in because we did not want to present material that, perhaps,

24 the Court did not want, but certainly we can have that all

25 translated.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think it is only fair for the Defence if you

27 wish to offer 360, and at the present time we have now seen it

28 and we have a translation of what you say are the words of

Page 7543

1 Mr. Tadic, but for us to get a clear picture, I think it would

2 be very helpful and interesting to see how it all is developed.

3 MISS HOLLIS: Certainly, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So if you intend on offering 360 and 360A, it

5 will be subject to the entire interpretation being provided.

6 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You can confer with the Defence and make sure

8 you agree on the interpretation.

9 JUDGE STEPHEN: One thing I would like to understand: I take it that

10 Ljubomir Tadic was speaking in his own language.

11 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

12 JUDGE STEPHEN: That what was then, what we heard ----

13 MISS HOLLIS: Dubbed over.

14 JUDGE STEPHEN: --- was his voice? We did not hear his voice at

15 all?

16 MISS HOLLIS: I think, your Honour, you did hear his voice and you

17 heard some Serbo-Croatian.


19 MISS HOLLIS: My understanding is what happens with many of the

20 programmes in Germany is that they dub them in German but they

21 do not cut out the original sound.

22 JUDGE STEPHEN: What I would like is not a translation of the German,

23 but a translation into English of what the witness is said to

24 have said in Serbo-Croatian.

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is the point I was making.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think it should be done. I think it is only

27 fair. So 360 and 360A will be admitted, subject to all of it

28 being interpreted.

Page 7544

1 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think it is important for us to see it in the

3 full context. OK.

4 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Tadic, that was you who appeared in that video, was

5 it not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That monument that you went to, what monument is that?

8 A. It is a monument to victims of fascist terror in 1941 in Kozarac

9 in a locality called Zajednice, from Kozarac in the direction of

10 Trnopolje, three to four kilometres.

11 MISS HOLLIS: Does that answer your question about the monument?


13 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Tadic, because of the beliefs that you had, you

14 supported what was done to the Muslims in opstina Prijedor, did

15 you not?

16 A. No.

17 Q. In addition to supporting what was done, you also took an active

18 role in preparing the Serbs to commit those acts, did you not?

19 A. I had no participation.

20 Q. In addition to the JNA arming Serbs in that area, you also

21 assisted your brother Dusko in his attempts to gather arms for

22 the local Serbs, did you not?

23 A. I never participated in that, nor was I aware at the time that

24 the Serbs were being armed.

25 Q. It was true, was it not, that under the Territorial Defence

26 structure firms sometimes provided persons, equipment and

27 weapons to the Territorial Defence?

28 A. The Territorial Defence was an official formation. The

Page 7545

1 Territorial Defence units at the time existed among Serbs and

2 Muslims. The Muslims from Kozarac within the framework of

3 Territorial Defence units took the weapons and armed themselves,

4 as far as I heard.

5 Q. Perhaps you did not understand the question. Let me ask you

6 again. Is it not true that under the structure of the

7 Territorial Defence, companies provided people, equipment and

8 weapons for the Territorial Defence?

9 A. I do not know. In enterprises there was only civil defence and

10 those people were not armed, nor did they own weapons.

11 Q. Is it not true that firms would pay for the weapons for their

12 employees for the Territorial Defence weapons?

13 A. I did not have a position of authority to know who paid for what

14 and gave weapons to whom.

15 Q. Is it not true that weapons were stored in companies up to a

16 certain point, to a certain time, in Yugoslavia?

17 A. It is possible.

18 Q. Is it not true that by 1992 those weapons from those companies

19 had been removed and in the Prijedor area were now stored in the

20 Prijedor barracks?

21 A. I know nothing about that. I was not living in Prijedor or

22 Kozarac.

23 Q. Was there not a shoe factory in Kozarac that was one of the

24 companies that stored these weapons?

25 A. There was a shoe factory or one basic organisation of associated

26 labour, as it was called, of the Banja Luka factory operating in

27 Kozarac. But, regarding storage, I was not living or working in

28 Kozarac, so I was not aware of any such thing.

Page 7546

1 Q. A friend of your brothers and yours was the secretary or former

2 secretary of that firm, is that not correct?

3 A. I do not know who you have in mind.

4 Q. Vaso Radonjic?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. A few months before the attacks began on Kozarac, your brother

7 and Vaso had documents drafted to allow them to be allocated the

8 weapons that had been in that firm, is that not correct?

9 A. I know nothing about that.

10 Q. When the weapons were about to be loaded on to the van, a JNA

11 officer came along and said "Stop" and prevented loading those

12 weapons on to the van?

13 MR. KAY: I think he said he knew nothing about it, your Honour, so

14 he has answered the question.

15 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we do not have to accept his "no".

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will overrule the objection. Did you know

17 about the JNA officer coming along and stopping?

18 THE WITNESS: No, I did not participate in that.

19 MISS HOLLIS: In fact, Mr. Tadic, you did participate in that, did

20 you not? Did you not drive your van from Banja Luka?

21 A. I travelled several times with the van to Kozarac, but as

22 regards having anything to do with weapons, I have no idea about

23 it.

24 Q. You were the one who started to load the weapons on to your van,

25 were you not?

26 A. No.

27 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions, your Honour.


Page 7547

1 Re-examined by MR. KAY

2 Q. Mr. Tadic, if you had loaded weapons on your van, what type of

3 van are we talking about? What is the size of it?

4 A. It is an old Volkswagen. I do not know whether you are familiar

5 with what it looks like? It was manufactured in 1974/75 with a

6 smaller door on the side, lateral door.

7 Q. What is that van generally used for?

8 A. I used it for my needs and I bought it mainly for my business.

9 Q. Did your brother ever tell you not to open a store in Kozarac a

10 couple of weeks before Kozarac was attacked? Had he said:

11 "Your store might get damaged in a few weeks time"?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did your brother tell you not to order 300 crates of beer from

14 the Banja Luka brewery three days before the attack on Kozarac

15 because your stock might be smashed?

16 A. No, on the contrary, he was glad that I would be working because

17 if I supply beverages, alcoholic and non-alcoholic, for his

18 cafe, he would not have to travel anywhere to purchase these

19 beverages for his cafe, but he would have them next door.

20 Q. Were you organised for any fighting assignments in Kozarac in

21 that period from 24th to 30th May?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You were asked a lot of questions about the media, television

24 and newspapers. When your brother was arrested in the months

25 and years that followed afterwards, did you see a lot of

26 programmes depicting your brother and making allegations against

27 him in TV programmes that you were able to see broadcast?

28 A. It was difficult to watch any such programmes for the simple

Page 7548

1 reason that the region of Banja Luka and generally the Republika

2 Srspka was deprived of electricity most of the time. There were

3 great shortages, so you could not really watch anything. I did

4 not have the opportunity to watch any particular programmes.

5 Also, I was in units for certain shifts, so there was no

6 television there.

7 Q. You mentioned newspaper interviews and a press centre. What

8 press centre was that?

9 A. In Banja Luka there is a military press centre and all TV

10 stations that came to the region of Krajina and Banja Luka came

11 to those press centres. They probably -- I remember when those

12 first teams came, they would give them approval, sometimes an

13 escort, frequently an escort, a man, to accompany them. They

14 would advise them where they should go. Quite a number were

15 sent to me because they wanted to interview me and a large

16 number of TV stations came. As far as I could, I really tried

17 to avoid them.

18 Q. Did you find that difficult, however, trying to avoid the

19 attention of the media?

20 A. Yes, but somebody would give them the information where I lived,

21 where the family home was. So sometimes they would wait for me

22 in front of -- outside my front door.

23 Q. Before your brother's arrest, had you ever handled the media,

24 meaning newspapers and television, before? Had they ever

25 entered your life in such a way?

26 A. No.

27 Q. Did you receive from people videos and press cuttings about the

28 allegations that were being made against your brother Dusko?

Page 7549

1 A. Rarely.

2 Q. But did you understand what people were saying about him?

3 A. At the time I really was having a hard time when this happened.

4 Simply, people -- I cannot say they avoided talking to me about

5 it, but they simply were embarrassed, just as I was embarrassed

6 to talk about it with them.

7 Q. You were asked questions about transporting witnesses. Were you

8 requested to undertake such tasks by other people connected with

9 this trial?

10 A. I transported only when anyone among the authorised people

11 requested that I transport one of the witnesses.

12 Q. I would like to now ask you some dates. When you gave evidence,

13 in answer to questions from me you originally said that your

14 brother went to Prijedor on 15th June, which would be the day

15 before his mobilization, but that both of you were mobilized on

16 16th June. However, in answer to questions from the Prosecution

17 this afternoon, you said that your brother went to Prijedor on

18 16th June which would have been the first day of his

19 mobilization. What was it? Did he go to Prijedor the day

20 before his mobilization or on the day of his mobilization or can

21 you not remember?

22 A. It is possible that he went a day before, but the mobilization

23 was precisely on 16th June.

24 Q. You were also asked about Muslims whom you had met in Kozarac

25 during the period of the conflict, and you mentioned a man

26 called Adem Kahrimanovic. When you met this person, were you on

27 your own or were you with anyone?

28 A. I was with several friends from Banja Luka, but they did not

Page 7550

1 know him. We hugged each other. We kissed each other. He

2 almost started crying, and I said: "Let's go and have a cup of

3 coffee", and so we went to a cafe nearby. I forget its

4 name -- "Sladana" is the name of the cafe. I just remembered.

5 We had a coffee. We had an earnest conversation and that is how

6 it was.

7 Q. Can you remember any of those people who were with you at that

8 meeting?

9 A. The two of us were sitting alone, but I could try to remember.

10 I can remember. Also present, I think, Zlatko Bajic was there,

11 then also Maric Sasa, Sasa Maric, and this was in front of the

12 cafe called -- pizzeria called "Maggio" where we met because he

13 had some relatives nearby.

14 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.


16 MISS HOLLIS: Nothing, your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have one question, Mr. Tadic: you testified

18 that you went to Lamovita with your brother. I looked at the

19 map and there is a region called Lamovita. Did you go to the

20 region or did you go to a particular town and, if so, which

21 town?

22 A. This whole region is known as Lamovita and I went to the house

23 of Milenko Timarac, known as "Pile".

24 Q. Where does he live, in what town?

25 A. All this is called Lamovita, but it is a part.

26 Q. Do you know the name of the town or hamlet that he lives in?

27 A. I beg your pardon?

28 Q. Do you know the name of the town or the hamlet that he lives in?

Page 7551

1 A. I do not know, but the family Timarac were living there.


3 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.


5 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Tadic being

7 permanently excused?

8 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you are free to leave. However, you are

10 subject to being recalled to testify before the Tribunal. So

11 you should make yourself available. Keep in touch with Mr. Kay,

12 and he will advise you if it is necessary for you to return to

13 give additional testimony. Will you do that?

14 THE WITNESS: With pleasure.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much for coming. You are now

16 excused.

17 (The witness withdrew).

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness?

19 MR. KAY: Your Honour, the next batch are actually landing at Schipol

20 at 5 o'clock I have been told.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They are not here yet?

22 MR. KAY: No -- well ----

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Will we begin tomorrow in closed or open

24 session?

25 MR. KAY: We will begin tomorrow in closed.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there anything else we need to discuss? We

27 can adjourn if there is nothing else?

28 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour, perhaps one matter. You may recall

Page 7552

1 that when a certain witness testified earlier there was a

2 request that that witness provide a military book to the people

3 who went to Banja Luka. If you will give me a moment ----


5 MISS HOLLIS: --- I will tell you the letter.


7 MISS HOLLIS: Yes. It is our understanding that during the recent

8 video link testimony there people were unable to locate this

9 witness.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You might check to see if it is W. I think

11 it is W.

12 MISS HOLLIS: I am assured by our Case Manager it is so I feel

13 confident it is. We have been told by the Defence they will

14 continue their efforts to find this witness so that we can get

15 this military book. I would simply note for the record that he

16 has not provided it, and we would ask that perhaps the Defence

17 let us know every couple of days perhaps what the progress is

18 since we are winding down on the case.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I recall his testimony that he works for Mladen

20 I thought.

21 MISS HOLLIS: I think you are right, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Or it might have been Ljubo. I do not

23 remember. I thought he worked at the cafe.

24 MISS HOLLIS: Mladen, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is Mladen. Mr. Kay or Mr. Wladimiroff?

26 MR. WLADIMIROFF: As a matter of fact we have passed a message, your

27 Honour, and as soon as we will be in touch with the man we will

28 pass the message to him personally.

Page 7553

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The reason I was asking whether I was correct

2 that he works for Mladen is that that might be a way for you to

3 get in touch with him if he is still working there.


5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That was his testimony.

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We have passed a message on in any place in cafes

7 where we would presume we would meet him, at least our

8 representatives in the field.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I was just saying if Mladen, because you would

10 have a closer relationship with Mladen that might be a way to

11 get in touch with him, but you have been unable to locate W, is

12 that what you are saying?

13 MR. WLADIMIROFF: The message is certainly around.

14 MISS HOLLIS: I would assume the message does include that it is a

15 court order that he is being asked to obey. So we would hope it

16 is worded that way.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, is that the way that it is

18 worded?

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We have passed a message we want to talk to the

20 person to pass to him the request of the order to produce his

21 military book. That is exactly what we have passed.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think I had suggested that a summons or a

23 subpoena be prepared if you wished the Trial Chamber to issue

24 one, as I recall. It may have been for another witness.

25 MISS HOLLIS: I do not recall exactly, your Honour, but we will check

26 that.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But it was certain I do recall telling Mr. W that he

28 should look for and produce the book. There is nothing we can

Page 7554

1 do at this point. Mr. Wladimiroff, I accept what you say, that

2 you are making a genuine effort to locate him. If you wish any

3 document to be prepared by the Trial Chamber, Miss Hollis, then

4 you can get us a document.

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: May I recall, your Honour, the Prosecution of the

6 other letters that apparently have been in the German file that

7 would be produced or at least shown to the Defence.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What I had suggested when that issue came up

9 was that the two of you get together and that the Prosecution

10 have their file, and then you would have what the lawyer gave

11 you to make sure that you have all of the letters.

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have shown to the Prosecution that we did not

13 have these letters.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are there some letters that you do not have in

15 your file that they had in their file and you now want copies?

16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is exactly what I recall.

17 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, our understanding was that unless of

18 course this falls under some exculpatory or impeachment

19 provision, then we would provide them with letters when we

20 intended to use them with witnesses, we would provide them

21 copies of those letters ahead of that.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would they not be statements of the accused?

23 Are you talking about letters from Mr. Tadic? That is what we

24 were talking about. That is the way the issue came up with

25 Mrs. Tadic.

26 MR. WLADIMIROFF: These were letters of Mr. Tadic and we feel if they

27 are exculpatory they should be produced whatsoever.

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If they are exculpatory they certainly should

Page 7555

1 be, but the question is even if they are not exculpatory should

2 they be interpreted as statements of Mr. Tadic?

3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: If those letters exist -- we are not aware of those

4 letters -- if those letters exist why not show them to the

5 Defence. I do not see why the Prosecution is hiding this away.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What I am asking you Mr. Wladimiroff under Rule

7 66A the Prosecutor is required to provide all prior statements

8 from the accused. I am asking you whether you feel that this

9 fits within that Rule?

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: It is a written statement, your Honour, and it

11 might be exculpatory because we apparently differ on the

12 character of those letters. Therefore, we want to check on

13 that.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you are limiting your request to exculpatory

15 material ----

16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We are not, your Honour. You may remember the

17 motion I filed in the very beginning. There I already took the

18 position that these are statements.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is what I am suggesting that you take and

20 every time you say that you then go back to exculpatory.

21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That was given. That is already there, that

22 position, and on top of that ----

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Are they not statements of the accused?

24 MISS HOLLIS: We do not believe they are, your Honour, because we do

25 not believe that a letter is a statement and that a statement is

26 a formal declaration typically given under oath or at least

27 signed and acknowledged as a true and accurate rendition. So we

28 would not automatically accept that these are statements. That

Page 7556

1 is, of course, a separate matter we have not litigated to this

2 point.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You have letters that you feel are not

4 exculpatory, so you are not giving them because they are not

5 exculpatory?

6 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. It is our position that under

7 disclosure rules, aside from this issue of whether it would be a

8 statement, that the letters do not create any disclosure

9 obligation to us, unless the Court were to determine that these

10 were statements of the accused.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In another case, in the Delalic matter, this

12 Chamber has issued a decision trying to determine how and to

13 what extent the Trial Chamber should get involved in what is in

14 the Prosecutor's file there to determine whether they had

15 evidence that was material to the Defence. The position that we

16 took is that the Trial Chamber certainly does not want to take

17 it upon themselves to go through the file and make this

18 decision.

19 We are almost like that. In other words, they have

20 information that is pretrial discovery and that is left up to

21 the Prosecutor, subject to the perils that if they do not turn

22 over exculpatory material then they would be subject to severe

23 sanctions. But let us discuss it over the evening recess and

24 see how we can resolve it.

25 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour ----

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Your position is what?

27 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I may simply add as well that it was

28 certainly our understanding after discussions with the Defence

Page 7557

1 that unless there was some other disclosure requirements, such

2 as exculpatory material, that what we would do is if we intended

3 to use a letter then we would provide a copy of that to the

4 Defence in advance. That was our understanding of what the

5 procedure would be. I understand that in the heat of advocacy

6 you can say things, but the Prosecution is not hiding anything

7 from the Defence that it has an obligation to give it.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will provide you with a copy of the Delalic

9 decision that may relate a little bit to this issue. Is there

10 anything you would like to add regarding your position?

11 MR. NIEMANN: There is something I would like to add, your Honour.

12 I had a meeting with Mr. Wladimiroff and it was agreed that any

13 of these letters that we were going to use we would make

14 available to them in advance. There was never any discussion

15 about general disclosure of them at all. Now if this is an

16 issue we will look at and examine it, but it was never, your

17 Honour, and it has been misrepresented here, because that is not

18 the basis upon which we discussed it. I discussed it clearly

19 with Mr. Wladimiroff and it was agreed that if we were going to

20 tender any of these letters in advance they would be provided.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think what Mr. Wladimiroff is saying is that

22 this issue came up when a letter was attempted to be offered

23 through Mrs. Tadic, and she had not received it. At that time

24 the Defence said, well, we do not have it in our file. In

25 attempting to resolve that particular issue with respect to that

26 one letter, I suggested that the two of you get together and

27 make sure that you had the same file. I did not intend to be

28 ruling on anything that may have gone beyond that particular

Page 7558

1 letter. That is how it came up and that is what I think you are

2 saying, Mr. Wladimiroff, but there is another issue now that Mr.

3 Niemann is referring to.

4 MR. NIEMANN: We had the meeting, your Honour. We had the meeting.

5 I know where it took place and what time it took place and we

6 discussed it, and that was the agreement.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not think he is saying that -- you tell

8 me, what about the meeting?

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: There may be a misunderstanding on my part. As far

10 as I recall, if they will use those letters they will tender

11 them. That is correct, but again we may have a different

12 understanding of what is the meaning of those letters. So my

13 understanding was that we should see those letters to judge

14 whether they are exculpatory or not.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, Mr. Wladimiroff says that the

16 meeting that you had he understood that setting aside whether

17 you would use the letters, that he understood that he would have

18 an opportunity to see all the letters to determine whether they

19 exculpatory or not.

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, that is not the position.

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, that is not true. In that meeting we had we

23 only discussed the matter of tendering it. That is fine, if you

24 are going to use it, they will tender it. If they tender it we

25 will have a copy whatsoever, but apart from that, and that was

26 not discussed on that occasion, at the court we raised the issue

27 of would that letter be exculpatory or not. You noticed that we

28 had a different view on that letter. For that reason you raised

Page 7559

1 the issue of comparing the files. So the only thing what I did

2 is to show to the Prosecution what I had in my file and they

3 promised to us that if they were going to tender it we will have

4 a copy. The other issue was left unsettled, that is, what do

5 that have? Is that exculpatory or not?

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, I did not mention the word "exculpatory"

7 when that issue arose.

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: It was in the context of that.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is how you may have viewed it after seeing

10 the letter and why you probably agreed to the letter coming in.


12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I can agree that after reading it I can

13 understand, but I never used that word "exculpatory". The real

14 issue was whether or not it was admissible when the witness had

15 not seen it and had not received it. All I was trying to do was

16 to resolve that issue because you said you had not seen it.

17 I did not know that there was an agreement between the two of

18 you that letters would not be given until they planned on using

19 them. That was when I made that suggestion. Then when we came

20 back from the recess you had withdrawn your objection because,

21 having looked at the letter, you said you had no objection.

22 Once again you did not use the word "exculpatory" but after

23 I read it, sure.

24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Then I take the blame, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do not think I have done anything now to get in

26 between this agreement. I want to stay out of pretrial

27 matters. That is between the two of you.

28 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Mr. Niemann is giving a correct representation of

Page 7560

1 what we discussed, but I was under the impression, and that is

2 perhaps my perception of what was the issue raised in court, the

3 type of letter, that is exculpatory, and if that is was a wrong

4 impression, that was the context of the other issue, I take the

5 blame of not understanding that.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: All I am saying is I certainly do not want to

7 rule on more than what is before us, and that was not my

8 intention, for sure, to open a whole discussion of letters. It

9 was to deal with this one exhibit. I intend it to be that way.

10 That is, let us see if he can work just this one problem out and

11 not deal with the whole issue.

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Then I made a mistake by misunderstanding and I

13 take the blame for that, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Where are we though? Are we back now to this

15 agreement?

16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, I would say if they tender it and then we have

17 a copy, that is what we discussed.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are they abiding by that agreement or is there

19 a problem with it?

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We still have the issue open.

21 MISS HOLLIS: We have not tendered any letter since then.

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We have still the issue open, that is, are these

23 statements of Dusko Tadic. If they are they have to produce

24 them.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The definition of a statement in Rule 26 of the

26 Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure was just recited by Miss

27 Hollis, but we will talk about that. You are now raising a new

28 issue notwithstanding the agreement that you had with counsel.

Page 7561


2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If that is what you are doing, then say it.


4 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, it appears two new issues. The second

5 issue the Defence is raising is that we may not -- under the

6 Rules we have an independent obligation to review our files and

7 determine what we believe may be exculpatory or may intend to

8 impeach. The Defence I believe has raised an issue that, well,

9 what if our determinations were to differ. Your Honour, the

10 Rules provide for that because under Rule 66B if the Defence is

11 concerned that that may be the case, they may ask to review all

12 of our books, documents, photographs and tangible objects,

13 material to the present preparation of the Defence.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That then kicks in the reciprocal ----

15 MISS HOLLIS: Every decision has as consequence, your Honour. I am

16 saying there is a remedy for their concerns in the record.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Notwithstanding the agreement, Mr. Wladimiroff

18 now when we are almost near the end of the trial says he should

19 get them because they are statements. We will rule on that

20 tomorrow. Did I gloss over another issue?

21 MR. KAY: There was one other issue which I was going to raise now.

22 During the video link your Honour may remember ordering the

23 production of unredacted documents by the witness Prpos.


25 MR. KAY: Those were provided to the Prosecution as well as the

26 Defence during the course of that hearing. We have both had the

27 opportunity of seeing them. It seems to me that it is now

28 desirable that they formally enter the Court record so that you

Page 7562

1 can have the unredacted copies as well. It may be appropriate

2 at this stage that a bundle be provided for you and the Registry

3 and we call them the next Defence Exhibit number.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Did you ever determine whether the patrol

5 reports for the Orlovci checkpoint were available?

6 MR. KAY: I do not think that was in your Honour's order. I think

7 your Honour's order was for those exhibits.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It was not for that. No, it was not. OK.

9 Mr. Niemann or whomever will respond with respect to that?

10 MISS HOLLIS: We have no objection if they are offering those as the

11 next Defence Exhibit in line.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. You get together the stack and then it

13 can be marked and admitted tomorrow.

14 MR. KAY: Yes.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there another issue?

16 JUDGE STEPHEN: I lack the Presiding Judge's memory for names of

17 witnesses, but there was the elderly witness who was the leader

18 of a commission which examined a whole lot of houses in the area

19 and he gave somewhat sweeping but very imprecise evidence on the

20 dates when he was engaged together with others on that work. He

21 said he had a diary but he had mislaid it. Has anything

22 happened about the search for that diary?

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Before he was called as a witness -- you are

24 referring to Mr. Dasic?


26 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We asked him over and over again and he could not

27 produce it. Being in the area I used the opportunity to ask him

28 again, and he could not find it either. I think he was a little

Page 7563

1 bit boasting there by saying that he may find it because he

2 could not before and he could not after.

3 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there anything else? Then we will adjourn

5 until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

6 (5.30 p.m.)

7 (The Court adjourned until the following day)