Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8262

1 Thursday, 7th November 1996.

2 (Open session)


4 MR. NIEMANN: Good morning, your Honour. Your Honours, yesterday you

5 asked a question about the witness Klipic and whether she had

6 known or asked who had killed the eleven policemen at that

7 spot. We had checked her testimony and she had made no mention

8 of that in the course of her testimony. I do not know whether

9 your Honour still wants to pursue it; if you do, she is

10 available and can be recalled.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, I do not think so. I do not know. Let me

12 confer. No, I think we have decided not to take that road.

13 Thank you though. Would you bring in the witness, please?

14 FIKRET KADIRIC, recalled.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, while we are waiting for the witness,

16 there is another matter. The next witness to be called in order

17 would be the witness that we are seeking confidentiality for, so

18 if we could then go into closed session I will make the

19 application and we will proceed from there, if that is

20 convenient to the Court?

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. We will do that.

22 Mr. Kadiric, you understand that you are still under

23 the oath that you took yesterday to tell the truth?

24 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes, I understand that.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you. Mr. Kay?

26 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

27 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

28 Q. Mr. Kadiric, Zoran Cvijic who had already been employed in the

Page 8263

1 administration department of the Prijedor traffic police when

2 you became Commander of the traffic police, can you tell us for

3 how long he had held that position before you became Commander?

4 A. He was not employed there. He was temporarily appointed to that

5 particular duty, up until the moment when his final duty would

6 be decided on.

7 Q. Can you tell us then how long he had been temporarily appointed

8 to the administration department before you became Commander of

9 the traffic police?

10 A. I cannot remember exactly, but it could have been for some two

11 or three months.

12 Q. When you became Commander of the traffic police, you did not

13 remove him from that position?

14 A. No.

15 Q. He remained in that position until your work at the Prijedor

16 police station was no longer possible?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. During the time that you worked with him, you had no cause to

19 doubt his honesty?

20 A. No, because there was another employee who was helping, the one

21 who was in charge of all the administration.

22 Q. When you worked with him he carried out your commands?

23 A. I was rarely giving him direct orders because there was an

24 employee, administrative employee, who was helping him in case

25 he had too many things to do. Personally, I do not think he had

26 too many things to do and there was no real reason for him to do

27 so.

28 MR. KAY: Thank you very much. That is all I ask.

Page 8264


2 MR. TIEGER: No questions, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Kadiric being

4 permanently excused?

5 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kadiric, you are permanently excused. You

7 are free to leave. Thank you for coming.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

9 (The witness withdrew)


11 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. Can we go into closed session?

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, thank you for helping us. I forgot just

13 that quickly. We will need to stand in recess for five minutes

14 to go into closed session.

15 (10.10 a.m.)

16 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

17 (10.05 a.m.)












Page 8265

1 (Closed Session)












13 Pages 8265-8278 redacted in Closed Session
















Page 8279

1 (Open Session)

2 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I should have indicated earlier (and I

3 apologise for not doing so) that the witness Nasiha Jakupovic

4 will not be called to give evidence. Her testimony is going to

5 be covered by other witnesses. I had thought that the list we

6 filed with the Court did not have the name on it, but

7 I understand that it was on there and she will not be called as

8 a witness.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you. Mr. Tieger, would you

10 call your next witness?

11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. The next witness is Sofia

12 Tadic.

13 SOFIA TADIC, called.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please take the oath that is being

15 handed to you?

16 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18 (The witness was sworn)

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated. Thank you.

20 Examined by MR. TIEGER

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may begin.

22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

23 Q. Ma'am, what is your name?

24 A. Sofia Tadic.

25 Q. Where were you born?

26 A. On 1st November 1957.

27 Q. Where was that?

28 A. In Osijek.

Page 8280

1 Q. Is that in Croatia?

2 A. In Croatia, yes.

3 Q. How long did you live in Osijek?

4 A. 14 years.

5 Q. After that did you move with your family to Munich, Germany?

6 A. Yes, in '72.

7 Q. Three years later in 1975 did you meet Mladen Tadic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you and Mladen Tadic married in 1978?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where were you married?

12 A. In Kozarac.

13 Q. Where did you and Mladen live after your marriage?

14 A. In Munich.

15 Q. Did you and Mladen visit Kozarac while you were living in

16 Munich?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How often would you visit Kozarac?

19 A. Often, often for all holidays, often just for weekends.

20 Q. For approximately what period of time during the course of a

21 year might you be in Kozarac?

22 A. Sometimes, as I said, just for weekends, holidays, three or four

23 weeks during the summer.

24 Q. Would you be in Kozarac as much as two months in the course of

25 some years?

26 A. On average, yes.

27 Q. How long did you continue to do that? When was your last visit

28 to Kozarac?

Page 8281

1 A. In March of 1991.

2 Q. Were you eventually divorced from Mladen Tadic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When was that?

5 A. I could not hear you.

6 Q. When was that, ma'am?

7 A. We divorced in Prijedor in December of '91 and in Munich in '92.

8 Q. When you visited Kozarac where would you stay?

9 A. In the house of Mladen's parents.

10 Q. Did you come to know the members of Mladen's family and their

11 family members?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were there some members of the family whom you came to know

14 better?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Which members of the family were those?

17 A. Family members who lived in that house.

18 Q. Did that include Mladen's brother Dule and Dule's wife Mira?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. During the time that you knew them, did they always live in the

21 home of the parents of Mladen and Dule Tadic?

22 A. No, not the whole time.

23 Q. Where else did they live?

24 A. They lived for a few months, as far as I recall, for a few

25 months they were subletting a place a couple of streets down.

26 Q. Did they also spend any time outside of the country abroad

27 during the time that you were there?

28 A. Yes, yes, in Libya.

Page 8282

1 Q. Ma'am, when you first met and got to know the Tadic family in

2 the late 1970s, did they have any apparent interest in or

3 involvement in Serbian nationalist issues?

4 A. Not directly.

5 Q. Was there some indirect expression of that interest by family

6 members?

7 A. Indirect, yes, but not from there, from them personally, but

8 from the family that lived farther down.

9 Q. At some point did members of the Tadic family and, in

10 particular, Dule Tadic, begin to express some interest in or

11 involvement in Serbian nationalist issues?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. About when did that begin?

14 A. It began, as far as I could tell, at a time when Mira was

15 pregnant. They said if it would be a boy it would be called

16 "Slobodan" after Slobodan Milosevic.

17 Q. Was she pregnant with their first child or their second child at

18 that time?

19 A. The second.

20 Q. Did they express any other feelings about Slobodan Milosevic?

21 A. With expressions like Milosevic was the only real man, the only

22 real politician, in the former Yugoslavia.

23 Q. Did they talk about events in former Yugoslavia at that time?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did they say about certain events that were happening at

26 that period?

27 A. The conversations revolved around events that were going on in

28 Kosovo.

Page 8283

1 Q. What was said about Kosovo?

2 A. Comments like that Serbs should be brought to Kosovo so that the

3 Albanians would be repressed.

4 Q. Were these comments by Dule Tadic and other members of the

5 family?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was this new interest in things Serbian expressed in any other

8 ways that you noticed?

9 A. Towards the end of my coming, my visits to Kozarac, yes.

10 Q. First of all, may I ask you, had the family been religiously

11 oriented or involved in religion when you first met them?

12 A. No, no, they were not.

13 Q. Around the time that you mentioned in the late 80s, did the

14 family become involved in the Serbian Orthodox church?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was there an interest in, for example, particular expressions of

17 religion in baptisms or festivals, things like that?

18 A. Yes, they went to church for holidays and there was conversation

19 about having the children baptised finally.

20 Q. Kozarac was a predominantly Muslim community, is that correct?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. From what you observed, did Dule Tadic have many Muslim friends?

23 A. No.

24 Q. What about Emir Karabasic, did you know him?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. How close were Emir Karabasic and Dule Tadic?

27 A. Not close at all.

28 Q. Did they associate together?

Page 8284

1 A. Yes, they visited.

2 Q. From what you observed, did you see the kinds of intimate

3 exchanges and warmth that you normally associate with a close

4 friendship?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you become aware of Dule Tadic's attitude toward the Muslims

7 of Kozarac generally?

8 A. Well.

9 Q. And what sorts of things did he say or do that indicated to you

10 his view toward Muslims generally?

11 A. As an example, when we were standing in the yard and people were

12 going to the mosque, there were comments like, "The Balijas are

13 going to the mosque".

14 Q. The term "balija" is an offensive term for Muslims?

15 A. Yes, offensive.

16 Q. A term which is not used in polite company?

17 A. Not normally, no.

18 Q. Did you become aware or familiar with Dule Tadic's temperament?

19 Was he an even tempered man?

20 A. Yes, I did find out.

21 Q. What were you able to observe about his temperament or temper?

22 A. Rather violent, then peaceful.

23 Q. For example, did you have to watch yourself in any way around

24 the house not to trigger any kind of expressions of temper on

25 his part?

26 A. Personally, no, because I was there with my husband, but the

27 others, yes.

28 Q. Did you observe any incidents when, in fact, his temper was

Page 8285

1 triggered?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you describe any of those, please?

4 A. On one occasion we heard yelling and arguing from the next room

5 where Mira and Dule -- Mira and Dule lived, and Mira, I saw her

6 the next day and she had black and blue on her face, marks.

7 Q. Can you recall any other occasions where you became aware of

8 Dule Tadic's acts of temper and violence?

9 A. Another occasion also when we were giving a ride to Dule and

10 another man in our car, it came to blows in the car.

11 Q. First of all, where was that?

12 A. In Munich.

13 Q. Who was in the car?

14 A. My daughter, my then husband Mladen, Dule and that man.

15 Q. Did an argument begin between Dule and someone else in the car?

16 A. An argument started before we got into the car and it ended up

17 in the car.

18 Q. What was the argument about?

19 A. The argument started at a sports event and I do not know how it

20 started, but the argument broke out in front of the car and then

21 ended in the car.

22 Q. As the argument continued in the car, what happened?

23 A. The argument turned into a fight.

24 Q. Exactly what occurred?

25 A. As I turned around, I saw Dule hitting that man with his hand in

26 the face, and the second time I turned I saw him grabbing him by

27 the genitals and squeezing him.

28 Q. Where were all of you going in the car?

Page 8286

1 A. We were giving a ride to Dule and this man to where they were

2 staying the night.

3 Q. Why was Dule in Munich at that time?

4 A. He was working.

5 Q. When you arrived at the place where Dule Tadic and this man were

6 staying the night, what happened?

7 A. We all got out and then Dule jumped over a fence, went to this

8 house where they were staying. It was a prefabricated building,

9 and he took a canister with gasoline and started splashing it

10 around the house.

11 Q. He was still angry?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. After he started doing that, did someone intervene and stop him

14 from continuing?

15 A. Mladen got involved and he tried to calm him down, whereupon

16 Dule went out. There was some wood that was piled in front of

17 it and then he started hitting it with his hands, that pile of

18 wood.

19 Q. Why was he doing that?

20 A. Most probably out of anger.

21 Q. After your last visit to Kozarac in March 1991, did you see Dule

22 Tadic or Mira Tadic again?

23 A. Mira I did; Dule I did not.

24 Q. Where was it that you saw Mira?

25 A. I did not catch the beginning of the question.

26 Q. Where did you see Mira?

27 A. In Munich.

28 Q. Did she contact you about coming to Munich?

Page 8287

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Why did she do that?

3 A. She did that because she intended to leave Dule, as she told me.

4 Q. Did she tell you why?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was it she said?

7 A. She said that she caught Dule with a lover and that she had

8 enough and that she wanted to leave.

9 Q. Did she want you to sponsor her in Munich?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did that involve?

12 A. That involved a letter of guarantee so that she could come to

13 Germany and where I would vouch that I would cover all her

14 expenses that she might incur if she came to Germany.

15 Q. Did you do that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did she come to Munich?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When was that?

20 A. That was in August of '93.

21 Q. How long did she stay?

22 A. Fourteen days.

23 Q. At some point during her stay with you, did she indicate to you

24 that she intended to have Dule Tadic join her?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. After you learned that, did you ask her to leave and go to

27 Mladen's?

28 A. Yes.

Page 8288

1 Q. Did you later learn that Dule Tadic had arrived in Munich?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 MR. TIEGER: That is all I have, your Honour. Thank you.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

5 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

6 MR. KAY: Thank you.

7 Q. You have told the Court about your visits to Kozarac from

8 Munich, presumably you enjoyed visiting Kozarac?

9 A. Yes, very much.

10 Q. Presumably, you enjoyed staying in the house of the Tadic

11 family?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You found when you stayed in their family home that the way of

14 life in Kozarac was very different from that in Munich?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The pace of life and the people were entirely different?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Their lives were not dictated by the clock? There was less

19 stress?

20 A. Correct, correct.

21 Q. You enjoyed living that way with the Tadic family in Kozarac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. A powerful influence within the family was the father of the

24 brothers, Ostoja Tadic?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Who was a man known as a patriot?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. A firm believer in the Yugoslav way of life?

Page 8289

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. With a great commitment to the Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia?

3 A. Yes, in communism.

4 Q. His influence on his four sons was considerable?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. He was a strong personality?

7 A. Yes, you could say so.

8 Q. When he died it was a great sadness for the family and in the

9 town of Kozarac?

10 A. Whether there was great sadness, that I do not know, but a lot

11 of people, yes.

12 Q. Did you attend the funeral?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Many people in the village also attended that funeral?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Emir Karabasic was someone who carried the coffin of Ostoja

17 Tadic along with the other brothers?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Emir Karabasic did that because he was a close friend of Dusko

20 Tadic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Many Muslim people attended that funeral?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You agree that the vast majority of people living in the centre

25 of Kozarac were of Muslim background?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. You could not live in Kozarac without having relationships and

28 friendships if you were a Serb with people who were Muslims?

Page 8290

1 A. One could.

2 Q. But Muslim people used to come to Dusko Tadic's cafe?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. He used to go to the cafe that was owned by another Muslim who

5 lived nearby?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. His time was spent mixing and talking with these people daily?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you recollect when the second child of Mira and Dusko Tadic

10 was born, what year that was?

11 A. '89, '90, somewhere around there.

12 Q. You told us that your last visit was in March 1991, is that

13 right?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. When had you previously visited before that visit in March 1991?

16 A. I think that was New Year's '90 to '91.

17 Q. For how long did you stay on that occasion?

18 A. I think we were always there between Christmas and New Year or

19 maybe just for New Year. I do not recall exactly.

20 Q. Sometime perhaps amounting to about a week?

21 A. Sometimes, yes, sometimes even longer.

22 Q. In fact, did your visits to Kozarac become less frequent from

23 1988/1989 to what they had been in the past in the early days of

24 your marriage with Mladen?

25 A. No.

26 Q. They were not as frequent as they had been originally?

27 A. We went as often as we could.

28 Q. Did Mladen go without you on occasions?

Page 8291

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. He certainly went as often as he could, is that right?

3 A. He went more frequently because at that time he was not working,

4 so he had no obligations. It was not, he was not on vacation

5 time, so he was determining his own time for travel.

6 Q. In 1991 when you had that visit in the March, for how long did

7 you stay?

8 A. That was for Easter and I think it was about a week.

9 Q. We have heard the suggestion that you used to spend two months

10 of the year in Kozarac. It seems certainly ----

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. --- 1991 from the New Year to the March that you had only spent

13 two weeks for that part of the year?

14 A. That year, yes.

15 Q. The previous year you did not spend as long as two months in

16 Kozarac, did you?

17 A. It may be. I really do not remember.

18 Q. Yes, your visits at that time, 1990, were not for as long as two

19 months, were they?

20 A. Altogether throughout the whole year probably, yes.

21 Q. When the second child was born to Mira and Dusko Tadic, you said

22 there was discussion of calling him Slobodan after the President

23 Milosevic. Is there a female name for version of the name

24 Slobodan?

25 A. Slobodanka.

26 Q. Did they call their second child Slobodanka?

27 A. No.

28 Q. What is the name of President Milosevic's wife?

Page 8292

1 A. As far as I know Mira.

2 Q. Did they call the second child Mira?

3 A. No.

4 Q. What did they call the second child?

5 A. Alexandra.

6 Q. Have you given television interviews concerning your connection

7 with the Tadic family?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How many?

10 A. Television interviews?

11 Q. Yes?

12 A. Once.

13 Q. And when was that?

14 A. This year.

15 Q. Were you paid for that? Were you paid money?

16 A. No.

17 Q. How many newspaper interviews have you given?

18 A. For newspapers, none.

19 Q. Radio interviews?

20 A. No.

21 Q. It just seemed to me when I mentioned television interviews that

22 you just said, "television interviews?", perhaps implying there

23 may have been other interviews that you may have given to the

24 media, no?

25 A. No. No, just that one single interview.

26 Q. You are aware of allegations against Dusko Tadic concerning

27 violence, are you not, what has been alleged against him?

28 A. Yes.

Page 8293

1 Q. You are aware that he has been alleged to have caused the

2 genitals of a man to be castrated? You are aware of that?

3 A. I know.

4 Q. You are aware of an allegation concerning an attempt to set fire

5 to the church in Kozarac?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yes, and that is why you have told us about these incidents,

8 that did not happen, concerning the grabbing of a man's genitals

9 and attempting to set fire to a building?

10 A. I saw it with my own eyes.

11 Q. The Serbian Orthodox church in Kozarac, is that the only church

12 in Kozarac?

13 A. In Kozarac, yes.

14 Q. How many mosques were in Kozarac?

15 A. I really did not count them. I do not know, many in any event.

16 Q. There is no particular problem, is there, with any families

17 seeking to go to church to have their children baptised? You do

18 not find anything wrong with that?

19 A. No.

20 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.


22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

23 Re-Examined by MR. TIEGER.

24 Q. Ma'am, you mentioned in response to a question by Mr. Kay in

25 connection with the funeral of Ostoja Tadic that Emir Karabasic

26 was a close friend of Dule Tadic. You had said earlier in your

27 testimony that they did not seem to have a close relationship.

28 Can you explain that?

Page 8294

1 A. According to my personal experience and according to what I saw

2 there, is that Emir thought that Dule was his friend, but from

3 Dule's side I could not see any kind of feelings or what one

4 could see in a friendship when you feel that it works both

5 ways.

6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, ma'am.


8 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.

9 Examined by the Court.

10 JUDGE STEPHEN: Two questions. I hope the first one will not cause

11 you any difficulty, but can you tell me what this

12 expression "balija" in fact means?

13 A. It is an expression, an offensive expression used for Muslims,

14 an offensive description of a people.

15 Q. It does not have any other meaning? It is not used in any other

16 context except as an epithet which is sometimes applied to

17 Muslims, is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The other thing I wanted to ask you was about this house,

20 I think prefabricated you said, in Munich where you described

21 Tadic sprinkling petrol. Whose house was it?

22 A. That was a house that belonged to that man Dusan Gavric. For

23 him Dule used to work at the time.

24 Q. I see, Dule was living in that house with this man?

25 A. Yes.

26 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

27 JUDGE VOHRAH: Madam, you mentioned that you were born in Osijek in

28 Croatia. May I know what your nationality is, please?

Page 8295

1 A. I am a Croat.


3 MR. TIEGER: Nothing, your Honour. Thank you.


5 MR. KAY: No thank you, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to this witness being

7 permanently excused?

8 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Tadic, you are permanently excused. That

10 means you are free to leave. Thank you for coming.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

12 (The witness withdrew).

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, you have two additional witnesses

14 and you have listed them for an hour. Tell me where we are, is

15 that correct?

16 MR. NIEMANN: We do not think either of them will take an hour having

17 regard to the cross-examination so far. One of them, your

18 Honour, the witness Huebel, is still on his way from Germany.

19 I understand that also ----

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: When did he start! I hope some time ago.

21 MR. NIEMANN: We have had him coming for sometime, your Honour. We

22 understand there is a problem with the translation anyway. We

23 have to have special German translators and they will not be

24 available until lunch time, as far as we understand, but there

25 is one witness Reid who is ready to give evidence now.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We shall stand in recess for 15 minutes and

27 then we will return.

28 11.50 a.m.

Page 8296

1 (Luncheon Adjournment)




























Page 8297

1 (2.00 p.m.)


3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. Thank you. The next witness is

4 Mr. Robert Reid.

5 JUDGE STEPHEN: I wonder if, while we are waiting, you can remind me

6 of when it was that Mr. Tadic's father died, what month or what

7 year?

8 MR. TIEGER: Actually, if I remember the evidence correctly,

9 I believe there were a couple of references to 1989. I believe

10 there was also one reference to 1990 by one witness.

11 JUDGE STEPHEN: It may be that I am going to get the answer from the

12 other side.

13 MR. TIEGER: I believe it is 1989.

14 MR. KAY: It might be 21st April 1989.

15 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

16 MR. ROBERT REID, recalled.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Reid, you may be seated. You have

18 testified previously and I think when I had released you I did

19 not release you permanently.

20 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So you are still under oath. You understand

22 that?


24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you. You may be seated.

25 Examined by MR. TIEGER

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may begin.

27 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

28 Q. Mr. Reid, as the Court correctly noted, you have testified

Page 8298

1 previously and on those occasions indicated your role as the

2 chief investigator into the investigations concerning opstina

3 Prijedor and adjacent areas?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. I would like to begin by asking you some questions about the

6 photo book which was shown to witnesses in this case. First of

7 all, can you tell us how many photographs are contained in the

8 photo book?

9 A. There are 13 photographs in all.

10 Q. How many photographs in a photo book of that type are customary

11 in various jurisdictions?

12 A. It depends on the jurisdiction, but normally between six to

13 eight photographs. The jurisdiction I come from, we always use

14 eight.

15 Q. Why were 13 used in this case?

16 A. Through an abundance of caution.

17 Q. Where were the persons whose pictures appeared as the other 12

18 photographs from?

19 A. Nine of the other photographs, the persons were from or born in

20 the former Yugoslavia, one was from Rumania, one was from

21 Morocco and the twelfth photograph we are unable to determine as

22 the file on that person had been destroyed.

23 Q. How were those photographs obtained?

24 A. Through the Dutch police.

25 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about the procedure used

26 when the photo book was shown to identification witnesses in

27 this case, that is, witnesses who had not previously known the

28 accused before the war. Can you tell us, first, what the

Page 8299

1 procedure was when the photo book was shown to the four

2 identification witnesses in this case?

3 A. Yes. Two persons showed the book to the four witnesses. One

4 investigator showed it to three of the witnesses and another

5 person showed it on behalf of the ICTY. In relation to the

6 investigator from the ICTY who showed three of the witnesses, he

7 went to the witness and, during the course of a conversation, he

8 said to the witness that he would like to show them a book of

9 photographs containing photographs of 13 persons. He wanted

10 them to look carefully at each of the photographs and if they

11 were able to identify anybody, could they please indicate that.

12 He further said to the witness, "Could you look

13 through the entire book before you make a selection?"

14 Q. With respect to the other identification witness, what procedure

15 was employed in that case?

16 A. Yes, there was a procedure that I put in place and sent the

17 photo book to the person who carried it out on behalf of the

18 ICTY. He attended the ----

19 Q. Were there any ICTY investigators in the area where the witness

20 lived at the time the photo display was sought?

21 A. No, there were not. The person concerned met the witness at his

22 place of employment. They went to a private room where the

23 person said to the witness that he had a book of photographs

24 that he would like to show the witness. Then he asked the

25 witness to look through that book of photographs and if he could

26 identify any person, could he please indicate it to him.

27 At that particular time, it appeared to the person who

28 was conducting the identification that the witness knew that

Page 8300

1 there was a trial being carried out in The Hague, and he told

2 the witness that that person may not be in the photo book and in

3 any case the person carrying out the photo identification did

4 not know if the person on trial was, in fact, in that book.

5 He then handed the book to the witness who looked

6 through the book -- I am sorry, prior to giving it to him, he

7 asked him to look through the entire book first before he made

8 any identification if he could, in fact, make that

9 identification. It was then handed to the witness who looked

10 through the book and when he came to the photograph -- came to a

11 particular photograph, he said words to the effect, "That's him,

12 that is the man that beat me and stabbed me". The person

13 conducting the identification asked was the witness certain, and

14 he said, yes, he was.

15 Q. Was the person conducting the photo display himself a law

16 enforcement official?

17 A. Yes, he was.

18 Q. After the witness had an opportunity to review the photographs,

19 as you describe, and made a selection, what happened then?

20 A. The witness was then asked to sign and date the back of the

21 photograph that he had identified. The book was then handed

22 back to the law enforcement official. That also occurred with

23 the other three witnesses that the ICTY investigator carried

24 out.

25 Q. Did you determine whether or not upon completion of the photo

26 display process and the selection, the identification witnesses

27 in this case had expressed certainty or uncertainty about the

28 selection of the photo?

Page 8301

1 A. Yes, they were certain.

2 Q. Did you determine whether or not the selection of the photo was

3 made immediately or after a long period of deliberation?

4 A. No, it was made immediately. There was no deliberation at all

5 from what I have been informed.

6 Q. Did the identification witnesses in this case select any other

7 photographs in the book and advise that those were other people

8 they recognised?

9 A. In relation to the witness that the law enforcement officer

10 carried out, he said that two of the people were familiar, but

11 there was no recognition of those persons. In relation to the

12 three that the investigator carried out, there were no other

13 persons selected.

14 Q. Were the witnesses, the identification witnesses in this case,

15 asked whether they knew the accused from before the war or had

16 seen his photograph or televised image afterward?

17 A. Yes, they were. They stated that they did not know him prior to

18 the war, and that they had not seen any images within the media.

19 Q. Were any of the identification witnesses in this case subjected

20 to or did they participate in repeated testing?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were the identification witnesses in this case shown the photo

23 book together with other identification witnesses or other

24 witnesses?

25 A. No, they were alone.

26 Q. Were the identification witnesses from the same countries or

27 different countries?

28 A. No, each of the identification witnesses is from a different

Page 8302

1 country.

2 Q. Were any of them from [redacted]

3 A. One of them is from [redacted]

4 Q. Did you determine whether or not the photo of the accused was

5 displayed for a longer period of time by the investigator than

6 any other photos in the photo array to the identification

7 witnesses?

8 A. The investigator from the ICTY and the law enforcement officer

9 did not have control of the book. The witness had control of

10 the book while he was looking through the book, through the

11 photo book.

12 Q. Did you determine whether or not the person showing the photo

13 book indicated anything to the identification witnesses as they

14 were looking at any of the photographs and particularly when

15 they were looking at the photograph of the accused?

16 A. No, there was no indication in relation to any of the

17 photographs.

18 Q. Were any of the witnesses ever told to look at one photograph

19 more carefully than others?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you determine whether any of the identification witnesses

22 were given positive feedback after selecting the photo of the

23 accused?

24 A. Yes, that was established and there was no feedback given to any

25 of the witnesses.

26 Q. Did the order of the accused's photograph in the photo lineup

27 stay the same or did it change?

28 A. No, it changed. The accused's photograph was moved throughout

Page 8303

1 the book for each of the witnesses and there was a separate book

2 used for each witness.

3 Q. Were any of the identification witnesses shown a lineup of two

4 people, a photograph or a photograph with just two people in it,

5 for investigative purposes or for identification purposes?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Are you aware that Dr. Wagenaar referred to a photograph of two

8 persons in his report?

9 A. Yes, I am aware of that, and I believe that the photograph that

10 he is referring to there is a colour photograph, a single

11 photograph, depicting the accused with a beard with a person

12 known as Emir Karabasic.

13 Q. That was a photograph shown to people in Court?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. Did you determine whether or not the identification witnesses

16 were asked if they had discussed their individual case with

17 other witnesses?

18 A. That was established that they had not discussed this particular

19 case with any other witness.

20 Q. Other than the four identification witnesses discussed in

21 Dr. Wagenaar's report, which was the subject of earlier

22 testimony, was the photo book shown to any other identification

23 witnesses ----

24 A. Yes, it was.

25 Q. --- potential identification witnesses?

26 A. Yes, it was.

27 Q. To how many?

28 A. Could I refer to some notes that I have made in relation to

Page 8304

1 this, please?

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, you may.

3 THE WITNESS: Yes, there were five other identification witnesses

4 that it was shown to.

5 MR. TIEGER: Were recognition or identifications, rather, made in any

6 of those cases?

7 A. Yes, four out of the five.

8 Q. Of the fifth person, was that someone who was unable to

9 recognise anyone in the photo book?

10 A. That is correct, he could not identify anyone.

11 Q. If I may ask you one quick question about a witness named

12 Draguna Jaskic? She was a witness who knew Mr. Tadic before the

13 war, and was shown a photo book to which, as described in Court,

14 she had a physical reaction and then at the end of reviewing the

15 photo book advised that she did not recognise anyone?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. Was she ever shown any other photo book?

18 A. No, she was only ever shown one photo book and only on one

19 occasion.

20 Q. Mr. Reid, I would like to ask you some questions about the

21 interviews you conducted with Mr. Tadic.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was Mr. Tadic advised of his rights by you at the beginning of

24 the interviews?

25 A. Yes, there were two separate interviews. There was the first

26 interview on 9th and 10th May 1995 and a second interview on

27 21st and 22nd December 1995, and he was advised of his rights on

28 both of those occasions.

Page 8305

1 Q. Did he have counsel present?

2 A. Yes, he did.

3 Q. Was he permitted to take breaks to consult with his attorney or

4 for any other purpose he desired?

5 A. Yes, he was.

6 Q. Was it made clear that if he was not feeling well for any reason

7 that the interviews did not have to take place or could be

8 continued?

9 A. Yes, in fact, one interview was cancelled in October, I think it

10 was, of 1995 as Mr. Tadic was not feeling well.

11 Q. Was he permitted to use any notes or other material which he

12 might wish to during the course of interviews?

13 A. Yes, I told him, I think it was in the first interview, in the

14 very beginning, that he could use any notes to refresh his

15 memory or anything that he wished. In the December interview,

16 it was clear that he was using notes to refresh his memory as to

17 times and dates.

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may the witness be shown Exhibit 361A

19 through C? (Handed)

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recognise those documents, Mr. Reid?

22 A. Yes. A and C, I believe, are the documents that he was

23 referring to. I did not actually read them, but it is

24 consistent with the type of answers that he was giving. 361B,

25 I am just not sure. I do not know if he had that document or

26 not.

27 Q. During the course of the interview, was Mr. Tadic pressured by

28 you into providing particular pieces of information or

Page 8306

1 particular kinds of information?

2 A. No.

3 Q. In particular, was he pressured into providing dates?

4 A. No, the first interview was a very general interview where

5 I wanted to, as best that we could, chronologically go through

6 what occurred in opstina Prijedor in both the lead up to the

7 conflict, during the conflict and after. The second interview

8 in December of 1995 was very specific. I went immediately to

9 the allegations that were outlined in the amended indictment,

10 and I supplied him with dates and read to him individual

11 allegations that were being made against him and supplied him

12 with dates and then asked him for a response in relation to

13 those allegations. I think the general question that I would

14 ask at the end of an allegation, "Is there anything you wish to

15 say in relation to that allegation?" and then Mr. Tadic would

16 answer.

17 Q. In the course of explaining his whereabouts on particular dates,

18 did Mr. Tadic refer to the documents you just referenced?

19 A. Yes, in the May interview, I do not believe that he had those

20 documents. In the December interview, and particularly on 22nd

21 December, yes, he referred to those documents.

22 Q. Are there reflections of that in the record of interview?

23 A. Yes, there are.

24 Q. Did those indicate that Mr. Tadic in any part of the record of

25 interview he has indicated that on a particular date he was not

26 sure of his whereabouts, and then after reference to the

27 document thereafter indicated a specific time and place with

28 respect to his whereabouts at the checkpoint?

Page 8307

1 A. Yes, that is correct. He was reminded of the document and, as a

2 result of that reminder, he was able to go to the document and

3 give specifics in relation to that particular allegation on a

4 particular day.

5 Q. Was he reminded of the document by you or by his counsel?

6 A. No, by his counsel.

7 Q. Did Mr. Tadic appear to feel hurried or rushed to provide

8 answers to you?

9 A. No, not during the interview. He was very deliberate in his

10 answers. If he did not understand something, he would ask for

11 clarification. On some occasions he suggested another

12 question. But, no, he was very deliberate throughout the

13 interview -- through both the interviews.

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, we had previously indicated that we would

15 be tendering the record of interview and I imagine this would be

16 an appropriate time. That would be Exhibit 366.

17 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then 366 will be admitted. Mr. Tieger, that is

19 the record of interview. I guess the date is indicated -- is it

20 both interviews?

21 MR. TIEGER: It is. Miss Sutherland is now suggesting to me, I think

22 quite prudently, because it appears as two separate bundles, one

23 for May and one for December, that we might want to have it

24 marked as Exhibit 366A and B, A for the May interview and B for

25 December.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 366 then is admitted; A will be the May and B

27 will be the December interview.

28 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I am going to mark these next documents for

Page 8308

1 identification only. It is more difficult to explain why at the

2 moment, but I think we may want to change the number when these

3 documents are admitted. So if I may have these two documents

4 marked as 367A and B for identification only?

5 Mr. Reid, do you recognise these documents?

6 A. Yes, these are two decisions, No. 16 and No. 17, which appeared

7 in the Banja Luka Gazette. They are decisions No. 16 of

8 22nd May 1992 and it relates to apartments and tenancies within

9 opstina Prijedor. The second document, article No. 17, is dated

10 26th May 1992 and it is a conclusion of the regional Crisis

11 Staff of the Autonomous Region Krajina.

12 It outlines a number of things in relation to the

13 recommendation of judges and prosecutors for the basic courts.

14 It then outlines that leading posts in the social and public

15 organisations can be occupied only by the most professional

16 cadre that is absolutely loyal to the Serb people in the Serb

17 Republic Bosnia and Herzegovina. It then outlines about

18 management boards in stock companies, the control of people in

19 the communes, a committee to be formed for negotiations with

20 members of other nationalities, an agency that would work on the

21 problem of population immigration and a paragraph in relation to

22 sales tax -- two paragraphs actually in relation to sales tax.

23 Q. Mr. Reid, what is the Banja Luka Gazette?

24 A. The Banja Luka Gazette is the official organ, if I can put it

25 that way, of the Autonomous Region Krajina and it is usually for

26 decisions, conclusions, all the official communications of the

27 regional Crisis -- among other bodies, the regional Crisis Staff

28 for the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

Page 8309

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I wish to tender these documents, but

2 I should indicate (and that is why I made the point about

3 identification) that these are English translations of portions

4 of Exhibit 145. I did not know if the Court wanted to have them

5 marked accordingly as a portion of 145 or just proceed

6 chronologically. I am not sure there is a perfect solution, but

7 I wanted to leave that to the Court.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know. I do not have a preference.

9 145, we do not have it as an A or B. It is just 145. Do you

10 know, Mr. Bos?

11 MR. TIEGER: No, it is just one -- it is a bundle of papers marked as

12 one exhibit and not ----

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This would be then the English translation of

14 portions of decisions in there?

15 MR. TIEGER: Yes. If I remember correctly, there are English

16 translations which comprise part of Exhibit 145 already.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know. Why do we not leave it as it

18 is? This way we will know that they are English translations of

19 the decisions 16 and 17. I gather 16 and 17, the Serbo-Croat,

20 are in 145?

21 THE WITNESS: Cyrillic.


23 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honour, yes. It is in Cyrillic. The entire

24 Gazette that we have is in Cyrillic. There are a number of

25 individual English translations of those decisions.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let us leave it the way it is then. It will be

27 367A and B and we understand what it is, only because we do not

28 have 145 before us and we will have to look at that and see how

Page 8310

1 it might relate. Just leave it this way. Is there any

2 objection to 367A and B?

3 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They will be admitted.

5 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Reid, are you familiar with two witnesses who

6 testified in this case, Hakija Elezovic and Samir Hodzic?

7 A. Yes, I am.

8 Q. Do you know whether or not they lived in the same country at the

9 time they gave their initial statements?

10 A. No, they did not. They lived on separate continents.

11 Q. To your knowledge, did they continue to live on separate

12 continents thereafter as well?

13 A. No, they did not.

14 Q. Do you know the distance from Sisak to Kozarac?

15 JUDGE STEPHEN: I am sorry. I do not know if I followed that last

16 answer. They no longer live in separate continents?

17 A. They live in the same area currently, your Honour.

18 Q. You mean the same area as they previously did?

19 A. No, no, one -- they live together now.

20 JUDGE STEPHEN: Yes, thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, the distance from Sisak to Kozarac is

22 approximately 70 kilometres as the crow flies. It would

23 probably be at the very, very most an hour and a half, two hour,

24 drive between the two locations.

25 MR. TIEGER: Did you have an opportunity to examine the unredacted

26 traffic police rosters which were obtained during the course of

27 the video link testimony?

28 A. Yes, I did. I have not examined the entire roster, but I have

Page 8311

1 examined a couple of pages of it.

2 Q. In examining portions of that roster of traffic policemen, did

3 you find the names of any persons who were reported to have been

4 involved in the round-up or selection of Muslims to go to camps

5 or any other aspect of the ethnic cleansing?

6 A. Yes. Can I refer to the document that I have?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. The document that I was given, on the very first page, 16th June

9 1992, there are two names there, at No. 706 the Kozarac

10 checkpoint, Zeljko Maric. Statements have been taken from at

11 least three witnesses that implicate that person in the roundup

12 of people fleeing from Kozarac. The other person that is on

13 this roster is marked No. 3 under the heading "slobodni" which,

14 I believe, means "day off" or "rest day". It is No. 3, Bosko

15 Grabez.

16 We have a number of statements from witnesses who were

17 taken from the Omarska camp to Manjaca camp on 6th August 1992

18 where that person travelled on one of the buses as a guard on

19 the bus. There are further statements from witnesses that say

20 that that person was involved in the murder of a person at the

21 front of Manjaca camp on the night of 6th August/morning of

22 7th August, 1992.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Which Exhibit is that? Do you have an Exhibit

24 number on that roster?

25 MR. TIEGER: 66C, your Honour.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I missed it, sorry.

27 MR. TIEGER: D66C, I should add.

28 JUDGE STEPHEN: I am afraid I missed the second name, Grabez?

Page 8312

1 THE WITNESS: Grabez, your Honour, yes, spelt G-R-A-B-E-Z.

2 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

3 MR. KAY: I think there is an error on the transcript which had it

4 down as Bosko Dragicevic who is someone else entirely.

5 MR. TIEGER: Let me have a moment, your Honour. I apologise, your

6 Honour, I am sorry.

7 Your Honour, may I have these marked as 368A through

8 D? Mr. Reid, are these articles from Kosarksi Vjesnik in which

9 there are photographs depicting persons in various uniforms at

10 various times?

11 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I am going to tender those Exhibits. They

13 really speak for themselves and also I will be submitting some

14 colour photographs of uniforms as well in response to the

15 Court's request.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

17 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 368A and B will be admitted.

19 MR. TIEGER: Those will be A through D, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 368A through D then are admitted.

21 MR. TIEGER: I think this can be submitted as simply Exhibit 369.

22 The Defence may want to take a look at that. They are just

23 photographs of various uniforms.

24 Mr. Reid, in 369 do you see any photographs showing an

25 SMB uniform?

26 A. Yes, in the first five photographs they are SMB uniforms and the

27 one on top is the winter uniform.

28 Q. Can we have one of those placed on the overhead projector,

Page 8313

1 please?

2 A. This is the winter uniform.

3 MR. TIEGER: It looks like it is not going to happen, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: However you want to handle it; if you wish, you

5 can just hand them up to the Bench and we will take a look at

6 them.

7 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Reid, does 369 show the SMB uniform and various

8 camouflage uniforms?

9 A. Yes, the last two photographs in the pile are the camouflage

10 uniforms of the former JNA.

11 Q. The previous Exhibit, did the photographs in those Exhibits or

12 that Exhibit also depict soldiers in both SMB and camouflage

13 uniforms?

14 A. Yes. There is one there that I noticed where there is a unit

15 being inspected and there were soldiers within that unit wearing

16 civilian clothes as well.

17 MR. TIEGER: I imagine the Court will have time to review that at its

18 leisure.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is working, if you want to show us.

20 THE WITNESS: This is the winter uniform of the JNA.

21 MR. TIEGER: Does "SMB" refer to the particular style of uniform or

22 to the colour?

23 A. No, I think it is the colour. It is the particular colour that

24 they refer to. They never say an olive green or a green or a

25 black or a grey. It is always an SMB uniform and it always

26 refers to the JNA uniform.

27 Q. I understand there are also a couple of photographs showing one

28 or another type of camouflage uniform?

Page 8314

1 A. Yes, there are.

2 JUDGE STEPHEN: The witness mentioned that one photograph was the

3 winter uniform. This is the first I have heard of a winter

4 uniform. Is that a winter SMB or just ----

5 A. Yes, that is what I believe, your Honour.

6 Q. As distinct from a summer SMB?

7 A. Yes, your Honour. The summer is, I believe, something like this

8 photograph here and, additionally, this photograph here.

9 JUDGE VOHRAH: That is a different colour. How do you differentiate

10 this uniform from the previous ones?

11 A. I am sorry, your Honour?

12 Q. How do you differentiate this uniform from the previous one?

13 A. This is the previous uniform of the JNA. This is -- I believe

14 that this would be like equivalent to a dress uniform or a full

15 uniform, if you like. This -- I believe this type of uniform is

16 the battle uniform or one that would be used out in the field or

17 around the barracks.

18 Q. The colours are different?

19 A. Yes, sir, but they are still described by witnesses as "SMB".

20 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: The camouflage uniforms, and the .....

22 MR. TIEGER: Was that tendered, your Honour?

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It has not been admitted, I do not think, 369.

24 Is there any objection?

25 MR. KAY: No objection.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be admitted.

27 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Reid, did you review information or have access to

28 information which would indicate whether or not any prisoners

Page 8315

1 who were held in the large hangar building of the Omarska camp

2 were held in portions of the ground floor located to the left of

3 the entrance as one would enter?

4 A. Yes, I do not believe that there were prisoners held in those

5 rooms. The statements that I have looked at, which is every

6 statement that has been taken, no witness has actually said they

7 have been held in that -- in any of those rooms.

8 On the inspection that we did of the large hangar in

9 February and March of this year, it appeared as though a lot of

10 those rooms were where they stored tools, machinery and things

11 like that and they were still basically intact from when it was

12 no longer used as a mine but as a camp.

13 Q. Did the information indicate whether or not any prisoners were

14 held between the area of the entrance and the stairway room?

15 A. Again, there is a large room that has -- there was -- when you

16 go into that room which is pretty much in the middle of that

17 area you are describing, there was a large board with all the

18 names of the workers that either worked in the hangar or the

19 entire mine, I am not sure. That was also an area that housed

20 all the tools and different machines, lathes and things like

21 that, and it appeared as though it had not been used as a room

22 when Omarska was a camp. There were, in fact, people working in

23 that when we were doing our inspection.

24 MR. TIEGER: That is all I have, your Honour, thank you.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

26 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

27 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

28 Q. Just a few questions on the last matters you raised, Mr. Reid.

Page 8316

1 You are referring, presumably, to your observations during your

2 visit of February 1996 ----

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. --- which was obviously some considerable period of time since

5 the closure of Omarska as a detention camp?

6 A. Yes, it was closed somewhere around 21st/22nd August 1992.

7 There are a lot of things there though that appeared to be that

8 people had just up and left. There is an area upstairs, the

9 internal stairway, the offices above in that area, there were

10 still desk calendars within the last week of May 1992. There

11 were documents just spread out over desks and it appeared as

12 though that area had not been used either. So it was consistent

13 that there had not really been anybody up in that area as well.

14 Q. Perhaps people may not have been held in those rooms for any

15 significant period, but that is not to say that for periods of

16 time people may have been put in those rooms, perhaps not as

17 permanent places of detention, but they may have been put in

18 there for whatever reason?

19 A. That is correct, yes.

20 Q. The same goes for the ground floor as well?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. It does seem that on occasions the hangar building has been used

23 by various organisations or people since that period of August

24 1992?

25 A. That is correct. When I was there in February/March, there was

26 a clear line of demarkation, if you like. The bottom level and

27 the internal stairway and the rooms above the internal stairway

28 were being used by the Omarska mine ----

Page 8317

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. --- and the area from the external stairway that led up to the

3 first floor was being used by the army of Republika Srpska.

4 Q. They, in fact, were using the hangar building, as we are

5 familiar with it in this courtroom, as an ammunition store?

6 A. I believe that is what it may be now. There was ammunition

7 there.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. But the ammunition store, no, was in the administration

10 building, in the room that has become known as "Mujo's room".

11 That was where the ammunition store was.

12 Q. When you went there in February, were there vast boxes full of

13 weapons or ----

14 A. In Mujo's room there was, yes, which is in the administration

15 building or the restaurant building.

16 Q. So it seems that there has been certainly people entering this

17 particular camp and using it for other purposes since the days

18 of August 1992?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. I would like to ask you now a couple of other questions about

21 other matters. I think I will start with the photo procedures.

22 You have referred to an investigator, presumably, from the

23 Prosecution team and a separate investigator, as a law

24 enforcement officer, who undertook the identification procedures

25 in relation to the four witnesses who claimed not to have known

26 Dusko Tadic before the conflict?

27 A. Yes, that is correct.

28 Q. First of all, the name of the person from the Office of the

Page 8318

1 Prosecutor or the Prosecution team, who was that?

2 A. It is Mr. Thomas Ackheim.

3 Q. The name of the other person who was a law enforcement officer?

4 A. Is Mr. Ron Safer.

5 Q. Spelt?

6 A. S-A-F-E-R.

7 Q. Were there other law enforcement officers or investigators from

8 the Prosecution used in relation to these procedures?

9 A. Only from the Office of the Prosecutor. There was no other

10 outside law enforcement body used to show the photo spreads.

11 That was the only photospread.

12 Q. We heard evidence from a man called Jos Paepen ----

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. --- who was involved in one identification process. It seemed

15 to have been his only contact with this particular area. Was he

16 an outside law enforcement officer or did he work for the Office

17 of the Prosecutor?

18 A. No, he worked for the Office of the Prosecutor. He was an

19 investigator or was at that time an investigator with the Office

20 of the Prosecutor.

21 Q. How many such officers are we concerned with?

22 A. The other officer that showed photospreads was Mr. Grant

23 McIntosh who is the other investigator on the team.

24 Q. When these identification procedures were carried out -- we are

25 essentially considering the four that you have given evidence

26 about ----

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. --- were notes taken at the time of the procedures that were

Page 8319

1 followed?

2 A. I believe that Mr. Safer made notes and Mr. Ackheim, no, he did

3 not.

4 Q. When the identification procedures were carried out, was there

5 any filming of how they were gone about?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Was there any recording of the length of time for which the

8 witness was considering the pages of the photospread?

9 A. No.

10 Q. At what stage during the contact with the witness was the

11 identification book used to enable the procedure to take place?

12 A. Can I refer to my notes?

13 Q. Of course.

14 A. Thank you. In relation to three of the witnesses, a statement

15 was obtained and then the photo book was shown to them sometime

16 after. In relation to the fourth witness, the photo book was

17 shown during the interview of that witness.

18 Q. Are you able to help us with the stage of the interview at which

19 the book was shown?

20 A. I cannot say positively, but I believe that in relation to the

21 witness that was shown the photo book during the interview it

22 was at the end of the interview, the conclusion.

23 Q. The names of the four witnesses we are concerned with here, if

24 you can perhaps give them to us now so that we have them in our

25 minds?

26 A. Sure. The first witness that I speak of is Kasim Mesic, the

27 second one is Sejad Halvadzic, the third one is Senad Muslimovic

28 and the fourth one is Zemka Sahbaz.

Page 8320

1 Q. Of those the one handled by the independent law enforcement

2 officer was which?

3 A. Mr. Muslimovic.

4 Q. Did the officers of the investigation section of the Prosecution

5 team have any pre-written form of words that they had to use in

6 relation to these procedures? Is there a document that set out

7 the precise wording for them to use and the procedures to be

8 followed?

9 A. No, there is not. It is an experience thing. For instance, if

10 I was to show a photo book I really would not need anything

11 written down. It is the same as a record of interview, a

12 handwritten statement, anything like that. I have done it so

13 often. It is an experience thing that you can just go through

14 it.

15 Q. You are familiar, it seems, with procedures that are used in

16 different parts of the world. You told us about the six to

17 eight photographs that may be used by many different

18 jurisdictions as generally the normal spread?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Other jurisdictions have procedures that are set out, pro forma

21 documents, that investigating officers use and follow down the

22 page each instruction which is signed?

23 A. Yes. Each individual police force (and the police force I come

24 from) has a set of guidelines, and they are guidelines. You are

25 taught them from the day you join the police until the day you

26 retire, but on occasions the guidelines do vary depending on the

27 witness.

28 For instance, the guidelines for a lineup, they say

Page 8321

1 that the witness should go across, in a physical lineup, a live

2 lineup, the witness should go across to the accused person and

3 touch that person on the shoulder. Some witnesses, particularly

4 sexual assault victims, cannot do that, so they -- so you have

5 to vary the guidelines. It just -- it depends on each

6 individual witness how you do it.

7 Q. So in relation to the procedures we are concerned with for these

8 four witnesses, there was no protocol that was written out that

9 established the guidelines to be used by those two officers?

10 A. No. With Mr. Safer, I am sorry, there were, there were written

11 guidelines for him to follow, and they were sent to him with the

12 photo book as to how to run through it, and that was the sole

13 purpose of Mr. Safer seeing Mr. Muslimovic, was to show him the

14 photo book.

15 Q. What did the guides lines say?

16 A. Basically what I have outlined. If I could refer to another

17 document?

18 Q. Yes, of course. Is this a letter to him?

19 A. No, no, it is not a letter. It is a conversation that I had

20 with him, but he followed it basically to the letter of the

21 law. It is basically what I have outlined in my evidence

22 earlier, that he asked him to look through the book to see if he

23 recognised anyone. I also asked him that if he did recognise

24 anybody, to indicate how he knew that person. Mr. Safer said

25 that, and this is where it varies, the guidelines vary, it

26 appeared quite openly to Mr. Safer that Mr. Muslimovic knew

27 there was a trial going on, so he varied the guidelines that we

28 had given him in that case. He also told him, and we did not

Page 8322

1 tell Mr. Safer whether Mr. Tadic was in the book at all, and

2 then how to go through, handing the book, let him go through it

3 and not to let him spend a lot of time looking at it, and I mean

4 a lot of time to me is to a witness who is perhaps an eyewitness

5 10 minutes is a long time, from experience. Normally, a person

6 can identify a person fairly quickly, from experience, and that

7 was what -- the guidelines that we set for him. I asked him to

8 have him sign and date any photograph that he identified.

9 Q. So the period of time that seems to have been applied by your

10 investigation team is about 10 minutes for the photo book, is

11 it?

12 A. No, no, that is my own guideline. I would never or very, very

13 rarely let a witness go even that long looking at a photo book.

14 I think, having spoken to Mr. Ackheim, the entire procedure with

15 the three witnesses that he showed from the time that he handed

16 the witness the book to when they flick through it, looked at

17 each of the photographs, identified the photograph, signed and

18 dated it was somewhere in the vicinity of three minutes. That

19 was an average.

20 Q. The witness Muslimovic who was aware of the trial that was going

21 on, he was obviously aware that it was the trial of Dusko Tadic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At what stage then was he put through this procedure?

24 A. His photo board was on 9th May, yes, 9th May, 1996.

25 Q. So after the opening of the case, the trial starting on 7th May?

26 A. Yes. He was interviewed in March, I think, of 1996 -- yes,

27 March 1996 he was interviewed.

28 Q. The country that he was living in?

Page 8323

1 A. He is still living there, so I prefer not to.

2 Q. Which one is that?

3 A. [redacted].

4 Q. The other three witnesses that were dealt with by the

5 investigator, were they shown the photo book before the trial

6 had started or after the trial had started? Perhaps you can

7 give us the dates for each of those witnesses?

8 A. Yes, Mr. Mesic was shown the photo book on 12th June 1996,

9 Mr. Halvadzic was shown the photo book on 14th June 1996, and

10 Mrs. Sahbaz was shown the book on 31st May 1996. In relation

11 to Mr. Mesic and Mr. Halvadzic, they were shown the book when

12 they were actually here in The Hague.

13 Q. Presumably, when they were shown the book in The Hague, they

14 knew why they had come to The Hague, whose trial it was?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It was not a secret?

17 A. No.

18 Q. No. Mr. Sahbaz?

19 A. Mrs. Sahbaz.

20 Q. Mrs. Sahbaz, sorry. She was shown the photo book on 31st May

21 1996?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When had she given her statement?

24 A. She gave her statement on 31st May 1996 as well. We had only

25 just found her at that particular time and she was interviewed

26 immediately.

27 Q. So that was all done at the same time?

28 A. Yes.

Page 8324

1 Q. Draguna Jaskic, is there any indication that she has a

2 connection or association with any of the other witnesses in the

3 case of Mr. Tadic?

4 A. She is the sister -- in relation to these identification

5 witnesses?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. She lived in the same village, I believe, or in the close

8 proximity to Mrs. Sahbaz, but with the other witnesses, no, I do

9 not believe so.

10 Q. That is Mrs. Sahbaz who did the identification on 31st May ----

11 A. Yes, I am sorry.

12 Q. --- 1996.

13 A. I thought you were talking about the four identification

14 witnesses. Mrs. Sahbaz would be the only one that she would

15 have any knowledge of, I believe.

16 Q. She may have connections with other witnesses, but of this group

17 of four ----

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. --- it is the case that it is Mrs. Sahbaz with whom she also has

20 a connection?

21 A. Yes, and I do not know what the connection is today. I know

22 that they lived in the same village or they lived in either

23 Sivci or Jaskici which are in close proximity to each other, but

24 that is basically it.

25 Q. Could one be the sister of the other or sister-in-law?

26 A. No, I do not believe she is the sister-in-law. The sister of

27 Draguna Jaskic is Subha Mujic.

28 Q. Yes, there is one other matter. We have produced the interviews

Page 8325

1 of Mr. Tadic for May and December ----

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. --- of last year. I am just checking really that they are a

4 complete set because there was a defect in the camera?

5 A. Yes, on the first interview in May the main camera malfunctioned

6 but we had a backup camera, and I think you will find that as

7 tape 5A, I believe. That is complete -- I have checked -- and

8 the interview is complete.

9 Q. The copies their Lordships have been given is a complete

10 transcript?

11 A. Yes, of the entire ----

12 Q. Without missing pages?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Just one other matter as it occurs to me: Witness L, was he

15 taken out to Trnopolje to identify places or sites?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who took him out to the opstina Prijedor region?

18 A. I did, among other people.

19 Q. Was that part of a Prosecution visit to the area?

20 A. No. I took him out. It was arranged specifically to take him

21 to the area and I did that, I believe, on 2nd October of this

22 year.

23 Q. Of this year?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I am actually thinking of slightly before the time that we have

26 had the revelation of the issues.

27 A. No.

28 Q. Was he taken out before the trial started or before he gave

Page 8326

1 evidence?

2 A. No, no, not at all.

3 Q. You have been aware of his movements, have you, since he was

4 given to you by the Bosnian police?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. That satisfies me. There has been discussion, as

7 you are aware, between the Defence on the number of witnesses in

8 particular countries and I believe you have talked to

9 Mr. Wladimiroff about this?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I am wondering whether the list has been prepared to advise us

12 of the geographic distribution in relation to witnesses?

13 A. Yes, I can tell you the number of witnesses from each of the

14 countries.

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. If that is what you are looking for. I can tell you a breakdown

17 of those witnesses and I have only included fact witnesses, not

18 policy or expert witnesses. [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted].

24 I might add that they are the countries where the

25 people were interviewed and statements were taken from them.

26 They do not necessarily live in those countries now.

27 Q. At this particular time would they have been interviewed in the

28 countries in which they were living at that time?

Page 8327

1 A. Yes. That is the breakdown I have just given you.

2 Q. Yes. Thank you. That is all I ask.


4 Re-Examined by Mr. Tieger.

5 Q. First, your Honour, before I begin can I ask for a redaction at

6 15.05.26.

7 Mr. Reid, just one matter. You were asked about

8 Draguna Jaskic and Mrs. Sahbaz?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You indicated you thought they were from the same place, that is

11 Jaskici or Sivci?

12 A. Yes, in 1992.

13 Q. Yes. Do you know whether or not they were living in the same

14 country thereafter?

15 A. No, they do not live in the same country now.

16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. That is all.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have any objection to that redaction?

18 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be granted. Do you have additional

20 questions, Mr. Kay?

21 MR. KAY: No thank you, your Honour.

22 JUDGE STEPHEN: A couple of questions, Mr. Reid. The first one was

23 looking across the Court at the model of Omarska there, the

24 large apparently two-storey building at the far end of the

25 hangar we seem to have heard nothing at all about in evidence.

26 Was it entirely separate from the longitudinal part of the

27 hangar?

28 A. There is one door that connects the two buildings and there is

Page 8328

1 no information from any witness that I have seen that that was

2 ever used.

3 Q. Thank you. The other thing I wanted to ask was what you have

4 told us about the procedure with the photospread is entirely

5 what you have been informed by the two different officers who

6 conducted it? You were not present at any of these photospread

7 examinations, were you?

8 A. No, that is correct, sir.

9 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How many different officers conducted it? One

11 who was an independent law enforcement officer and then who

12 else?

13 A. With the four identification witnesses there were only two

14 people involved. One is Mr. Ackheim who showed three witnesses

15 and the other is Mr. Safer who showed Mr. Muslimovic.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, do you have additional questions?

17 MR. TIEGER: One moment, your Honour. No, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger did you have additional questions?

19 MR. TIEGER: No thank you, your Honour.


21 MR. KAY: No thank you, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Reid is permanently excused, I presume?

23 MR. KAY: Yes.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you for coming. You are excused from

25 coming.

26 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honour.

27 (The witness withdrew).

28 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Tieger, you have been good enough to give us

Page 8329

1 Exhibit 366A and B each of which is very lengthy. This is

2 really to help in view of the 6,000 plus pages of transcript

3 that we already have. Will you be drawing our attention to

4 particular passages in the final address of these or are we

5 expected to examine them and compare them with the evidence?

6 What is your intention in giving them to us now?

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, you may be sure that we will be drawing the

8 Court's attention to particular portions of that document. You

9 may recall that that was done during cross-examination as well,

10 and we will give the Court as much guidance as possible in

11 utilizing the evidence which has been presented in a most

12 efficient form.

13 JUDGE STEPHEN: We will look forward to that with interest. Thank

14 you.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you call your next witness or

16 Mr. Keegan?

17 MR. KEEGAN: I apologise for this late notice to the Court and also

18 to the Defence. Your Honour, I was literally just informed by

19 the witness who is a German police officer that he requests

20 facial distortion during his testimony.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We, you need to talk with opposing counsel about

22 that and we will stand in recess for five minutes and see if it

23 can be agreed upon.

24 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour.

25 3.15 p.m.

26 (The Court adjourned for a short time).

27 3.20 p.m.

28 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, for the record I should indicate that

Page 8330

1 during the recess we requested and were granted without

2 objection a redaction from 15.11.48 to 15.12.46.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That has been granted.

4 MR. KAY: Yes.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, would you call the next witness.

6 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour. I call Officer Huebel to the

7 stand, please.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: There is no objection to facial distortion?

9 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

10 ALFRED HUEBEL, called.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is

12 being handed to you.

13 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I shall tell

14 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

16 Examined by MR. KEEGAN.

17 MR. KEEGAN: Sir, would you please state your full name?

18 A. Alfred Huebel is my name.

19 Q. What position do you currently hold, sir?

20 A. I am Chief Investigator in Mecklenheim.

21 Q. How long have you held that position?

22 A. I have been with the federal investigation there since 1980.

23 Q. Sir, on 11 and 12 October of 1994 did you conduct an interview

24 of Dusko Tadic?

25 A. With my colleague Officer Balante and myself on that date, we

26 did question Mr. Tadic in Munich in the Stadelheim facility.

27 Q. Do you see the man that you interviewed on that day here in this

28 courtroom?

Page 8331

1 A. Yes, I see Mr. Tadic on my left, here in the middle between the

2 other two gentlemen.

3 Q. OK. I need you, if you would please, to point at him and if you

4 could just describe what he is wearing?

5 A. Yes, Mr. Tadic is wearing a grey suit. He is wearing a blue

6 shirt and a dark tie.

7 Q. Your Honour, if the record could reflect that the witness

8 identified the accused?

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will so reflect.

10 MR. KEEGAN: Could Prosecution Exhibit 321A be given to the witness,

11 please? (Handed). Sir, if you could look at the document that

12 has been handed to you and tell me if you recognise it, please?

13 A. This document here before me is the record of the interview that

14 was carried out by myself and by my colleague in the prison

15 facility in Munich at the time.

16 Q. Sir, if I could ask you to turn to page 18 of that document, it

17 is marked "18" in the bottom right-hand corner of your

18 document. If page 11 could be placed on the Elmo, please, of

19 the English version. Thank you. Sir, if you look at that page

20 18 in that record of interview. You asked the accused about a

21 document identified as Exhibit 1.12.87 which had been seized

22 from the apartment in Munich where the accused was staying.

23 That document refers to the issuance of an automatic weapon and

24 300 rounds of ammunition to the accused. When you were

25 referring to that document and your questions to the accused,

26 did you show that document to the accused?

27 A. We did show that document to Mr. Tadic. He did have an

28 opportunity to see it and become acquainted with it.

Page 8332

1 Q. Did you follow that practice for each of the documents which are

2 referred to in the questions in this record of interview?

3 A. Now the Exhibits which are referred to in this document were all

4 produced to Mr. Tadic.

5 Q. Is that a requirement of the operating procedures for the German

6 police authorities?

7 A. That is a procedure that is followed by the German police in

8 such cases.

9 Q. If Exhibit 148 could be shown to the witness, please,

10 Prosecution Exhibit 148. The plastic sleeve must also be shown

11 to the witness. Sir, do you recognise that Exhibit?

12 A. Now on the plastic cover there is a sticker that we put on

13 exhibits. It is my colleague that signed it here. The Exhibit

14 I have here was produced to Mr. Tadic at the time.

15 Q. Thank you. Nothing further, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, cross-examination?

17 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY.

18 Q. If you would like to look at the first page of the questioning

19 of the accused, which is page 3 in the bottom right-hand

20 corner ----

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This is 321A, is it or 321 I guess?

22 MR. KAY: 321.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In his language. OK, thank you.

24 MR. KAY: It is headed about "About the Individual". I think it is

25 page 2 of the German document. Can you see that, Officer?

26 A. I have page 2 open here, yes.

27 Q. It states as a comment there that Mr. Tadic was given an

28 opportunity to acquaint himself with the second letter he sent

Page 8333

1 from prison dated 6th March 1994, and agreed to those

2 handwritten 10 pages being included as attachment one. It says

3 that they are included as a seven-page translation by the

4 interpreter Mr. Kertes. Do you see that?

5 A. Yes, I do see it.

6 Q. That specifically refers to a document that was produced to

7 Mr. Tadic during the interview, does it not?

8 A. This was something that had been drafted by Mr. Tadic and that

9 was annexed to the record.

10 Q. But it says here he was given an opportunity to acquaint himself

11 with the second letter. Does that not mean he was given an

12 opportunity during the interview to look at that document and

13 that was recorded in the interview?

14 A. Well, I would point out that I am afraid I have not understood

15 your question as put.

16 Q. Well, what I am curious about is why you say this document was

17 produced during the interview and it does not say that it was

18 produced before him. On page 11 that we have been looking at

19 where you have been asked to consider this Exhibit, it does not

20 state that it was produced before him, does it?

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think he is still looking at page 3.

22 MR. KAY: Yes. If you would like to look at page 17 of the German

23 document.

24 A. Yes, I am looking at that now.

25 Q. It does not say it was actually produced for him to look at,

26 does it?

27 A. I can just repeat what I said earlier on, the document was

28 produced and Mr. Tadic did have an opportunity to acquaint

Page 8334

1 himself with that document.

2 Q. How many other documents were then produced during this

3 interview?

4 A. I already indicated that. All of the exhibits that have their

5 own reference number were produced in the course of the

6 interview.

7 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.


9 Re-Examined by MR. KEEGAN.

10 Q. Officer Huebel, the production of specific exhibits or documents

11 referred to, you testified earlier is the standard procedure for

12 German police authorities?

13 A. It is a standard procedure in Germany when reference is made to

14 exhibits, and when there is any need to mention exhibits those

15 exhibits are produced to the person involved and the person

16 involved is given a chance to look at them.

17 Q. The accused had a Defence counsel present during this interview,

18 correct?

19 A. During the three days of interviews, from the first to the last

20 minute the German Defence counsel of Mr. Tadic was

21 present throughout. He could follow the proceedings and he had

22 the opportunity to make any objections he might have cared to.

23 Q. This first document which the Defence counsel asked you about

24 which was attached as an annex, that was in fact separate, if

25 you will, from the actual interview itself?

26 A. That was a separate matter because in those handwritten notes

27 Mr. Tadic had made some statements about himself and about his

28 activities, and that is why that was referred to in the part

Page 8335

1 entitled "About the Individual".

2 Q. In the comment that follows there are additions or corrections,

3 if you will, that the accused himself wanted to make for the

4 record?

5 A. What was entered into further on is a fuller understanding of

6 the elements relating to the individual Mr. Tadic.

7 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you. Nothing further, your Honour.


9 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

10 Further Cross-Examined by MR. KAY.

11 Q. You have just told us that Mr. Tadic was interviewed over three

12 days, is that right?

13 A. That is right, Mr. Tadic was questioned over a three-day period.

14 Q. How many pages of interview do we have for that questioning

15 during the period of three days?

16 A. Now I have here the front page 1 to 31 and that is the full

17 record, the full transcript of the interview of Mr. Tadic.

18 Q. When you refer to this passage of the interview at page 11, page

19 17 of your document, it does not say that Mr. Tadic looked at

20 the document, does it?

21 A. I can just reiterate what I have already said and repeat that

22 Mr. Tadic did see that document. It was produced.

23 Q. Well, there is a difference between a document being produced

24 and a document being looked at. You understand that difference,

25 do you?

26 A. Mr. Tadic was shown this document and he had the opportunity to

27 examine it more closely and read what it said.

28 Q. So when you say he had the opportunity to examine it more

Page 8336

1 closely and see what it said, that does not mean that he did

2 look at it more closely?

3 A. We gave him the opportunity to look at the document, to read it,

4 and Mr. Tadic did see the document and Mr. Tadic could read the

5 document. He was granted the time and the possibility to do so.

6 Q. His reply was he knew nothing about it and he did not receive

7 any weapons or any ammunition from the staff of the Territorial

8 Defence, is that right?

9 A. That is also what we put in the record.

10 MR. KAY: Thank you very much.


12 MR. KEEGAN: No nothing, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you are permanently excused. You are free

14 to leave, but you need to remain where you are sitting. The

15 Judges will leave so that we can then go back into open

16 session. So you remain where you are sitting, but you are free

17 to go after we have left.

18 3.50 p.m.

19 (The Court adjourned for a short time).

20 3.55 p.m.

21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, the one thing remaining I think is that

22 there was a piece of paper shown, two pieces of paper shown to

23 Witness AA this morning and I tender those. Might they be given

24 collectively the number 370? They are just two pieces of paper

25 with names on them, your Honours. Might they be sealed?

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, they will be marked as Prosecution 370 and

27 371 or together?

28 MR. NIEMANN: 370A and B.

Page 8337

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

2 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They will be admitted and sealed.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there anything else, Mr. Niemann?

5 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honours, that concludes the evidence of the

6 Prosecution in rebuttal.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, your Honour. We will not call for

9 evidence in rejoinder, your Honours.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Chamber wants to thank counsel, of course,

11 for the very professional way that you presented the evidence.

12 We have scheduled closing arguments for November 25th at 10 a.m.

13 and have reserved two days, but we are willing to go to three

14 days to listen to you for as long as you wish. So we encourage

15 you to take your time and present the evidence fully. It has

16 been a long trial with a number of Exhibits and many thousands

17 of pages of testimony. We will adjourn then until November 25th

18 at 10 a.m.

19 (The Court adjourned)