Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8908

1 Monday, 30th June 1997

2 (2.30 pm)

3 THE CLERK OF THE COURT: Case number IT-94-1-T, the

4 Prosecutor v Dusko Tadic.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. May I have appearances for

6 counsel, please?

7 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, my name is Niemann and

8 I appear for the Prosecution. Mr. Keegan will shortly

9 join us, and I am assisted at the bar table by Miss

10 Sutherland, your Honour.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. May I have appearances for the

12 defence, please?

13 MR. VUJIN: Milan Vujin, lead defence counsel. Today I am

14 assisted by Mr. Nikola Kostic, and Mr. John Livingston as

15 a law adviser, and Ms. Jelena Lopicic is also a law

16 adviser.

17 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you, Mr. Vujin. Are you ready to

18 proceed, Mr. Vujin? Mr. Vujin, are you ready to proceed?

19 MR. VUJIN: Your Honour, the Defence believed that we would

20 follow the order as we have been doing in the

21 presentation of evidence, which means that the

22 Prosecutor will present his evidence, or rather his

23 position, and that after that the Defence would speak.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann, do you have any objection to

25 proceeding in that way?

Page 8909

1 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, in terms of presenting the

2 material that we wish to present, we have presented

3 certain material which has been served upon the Defence

4 in relation to written submissions, in the form of

5 written submissions and in addition to that certain

6 supporting material, including two declarations. That

7 is our position. We wish to make oral submissions. We

8 ask the court for an opportunity to do that, but we

9 don't seek to do that until after we have heard the

10 evidence of the defence.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin, there is outstanding a request

12 for postponement of sentence that you filed on

13 June 26th, and actually I wanted you to speak to that.

14 You were asking that the sentencing be postponed. You

15 wished to call in person an expert witness. We have

16 received his report, and we have read his report, but

17 you may proceed with respect to that motion, unless you

18 wish to withdraw it at this time.

19 MR. VUJIN: Your Honours, at this moment we would not like

20 to withdraw the proposal to invite as an expert witness

21 Professor Nedopil. However, as you have been able to

22 see, we have had problems in communications with

23 Professor Nedopil who was at a conference in Canada. I

24 spoke to him on the phone today and he is ready to come

25 to The Hague but not before Friday, because he is

Page 8910

1 prevented by other obligations. In the meantime I wish

2 to inform the court of another difficulty that has

3 arisen. My office informed me half an hour ago that it

4 had also contacted Professor Nedopil and that

5 Professor Nedopil is asking payment not only of

6 travelling expenses and accommodation but also 1,000

7 German marks per hour for every hour of his absence from

8 Munich.

9 JUDGE McDONALD: Does that include travel time? I suppose

10 it does.

11 MR. VUJIN: Yes, travel too from 6.00 am in the morning

12 until he completes his sojourn in The Hague. The

13 presentation of a psychiatrist and especially

14 Professor Nedopil, we chose him because he had occasion

15 to examine the personality of the accused Tadic for some

16 time during his stay in Munich, but if you, as the Trial

17 Chamber, are unable to accommodate this request in the

18 name of a fair trial, we would be prepared to accept the

19 expert testimony of an expert who is here in The Hague

20 and who carried out some psychological examinations of

21 the accused, Tadic, here in The Hague. I do not have

22 his name at this moment, but I have asked Mr. Stuart to

23 provide me with the names, and if there is such a

24 possibility, the Defence would be ready to accept it.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: How much will he or she charge per hour in

Page 8911

1 guilders, I suppose?

2 MR. VUJIN: I am afraid I don't know that because this is

3 the first time that I am encountering Dutch experts.

4 JUDGE McDONALD: The situation with respect to Dr. Nedopil,

5 as I understand it, he examined Mr. Tadic two and a half,

6 three years ago, was it, when he was in custody in

7 Germany. You have provided the Trial Chamber with a

8 copy of the report and, as I indicated, we have read

9 that report. I have discussed this matter with my

10 colleagues, and we feel that the report is sufficient.

11 There's no need for him to attend in person and read his

12 report for us. So I don't really consider that it's

13 necessary. When you filed your request for an

14 extension, the Trial Chamber had previously entered an

15 order stating that if you were able to obtain the

16 presence of Dr. Nedopil by July 4th, then we would hear

17 from him, because at that time you did not know when he

18 was returning, and so you really could not give us a

19 date, but now you are saying that he could be here on

20 July 4th?

21 MR. VUJIN: Yes, that is correct, on 4th.

22 JUDGE McDONALD: In the Order that the Trial Chamber

23 entered on July 12th, the Trial Chamber indicated that

24 we preferred written statements. This is not a trial.

25 This is a sentencing hearing and we are of course

Page 8912

1 interested in receiving information that will help us in

2 the process, but it need not be presented orally. So

3 with the benefit of his report I don't believe there is

4 any reason to have him here.

5 With respect to the other psychiatrist who is

6 here, would he be ready to testify this week? He, I

7 gather, would have to examine Mr. Tadic at some point

8 this week.

9 MR. VUJIN: Your Honours, I really do not know, because I

10 have not had any chance to communicate with the local

11 expert, but from the information from Mr. Tadic, the

12 psychologist who did the tests does not require

13 additional time for observation of Mr. Tadic. She has

14 her findings ready and she is able to present those

15 findings. We just appeal to the court to enable us to

16 get in touch with her so that we can agree on when she

17 could present her findings.

18 JUDGE McDONALD: In the Order of June 12th the Trial

19 Chamber had indicated that we wished to receive any

20 reports you intended on offering three days, I think is

21 what was said in the Order, prior to the commencement of

22 the hearing but when could you have that report to us?

23 When could we receive it?

24 MR. VUJIN: I'm afraid we do not have that report in

25 writing, because Mr. Tadic never received that report in

Page 8913

1 writing, the view of the expert who tested him. If we

2 receive the name of that lady, because Mr. Dusko Tadic

3 does not know her name either, we could then provide you

4 with an answer to your question, and I hope that this

5 could be on the same day as soon as we get in touch with

6 her.

7 JUDGE McDONALD: I suppose you need then to speak with the

8 Registry to obtain the name of the psychologist. You

9 may do that. We will take a recess this afternoon, so

10 you may do that at the recess and perhaps even you will

11 be able to determine over the evening, when we adjourn

12 tonight, whether the psychologist has a report, when the

13 report would be available to be provided to the Trial

14 Chamber. Then we will make a determination tomorrow as

15 to whether we will hear this psychologist. You have

16 listed a Professor Dr. Aleksic.

17 MR. VUJIN: Aleksic Zivojin is here present and he is

18 ready to present his views on the circumstances that we

19 explained in our motion.

20 JUDGE McDONALD: We have not received a report from

21 Professor Aleksic.

22 MR. VUJIC: No, you have not received a report from

23 Professor Aleksic. If you feel that is necessary in

24 writing, you can have it tomorrow, but we wanted to take

25 advantage of Professor Aleksic for him to explain orally

Page 8914

1 the situation with regard to Yugoslav criminal law

2 provisions regarding the circumstances that are relevant

3 for this case: Professor Aleksic is a world renowned

4 figure and expert for criminal law and criminology. He

5 has some 26 books to his credit and I am sure that he

6 would be very useful to the Trial Chamber and all of us

7 here to hear him.

8 JUDGE McDONALD: The June 12th order directed the parties

9 to provide a written report. That's why I was asking

10 whether you had one available. When did you intend on

11 calling him in the Order of witnesses you have listed.

12 MR. VUJIN: Professor Aleksic would come at the end.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Is he here in The Hague?

14 MR. VUJIN: Yes, he is in The Hague.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: Confer with him and determine whether he

16 has a report and advise the Trial Chamber tomorrow

17 afternoon when we continue, and then we will make a

18 determination as to whether we will hear him if he does

19 not have a report in light of our June 12th order

20 directing a written report. Are there any other matters

21 preliminarily, Mr. Vujin?

22 MR. VUJIN: I should just like to inform you, your Honours,

23 that we have proposed the testimony of two witnesses,

24 Radomir Slobodan and Javic Milan, but coming from Banja

25 Luka to Belgrade they had a traffic accident and were

Page 8915

1 therefore unable to come, so that in the course of these

2 proceedings we hope to be able to submit the written

3 statement by Mr. Javic.

4 JUDGE McDONALD: You may be seated. Thank you. On May 7th

5 the Trial Chamber rendered an Opinion and Judgment

6 finding Dusko Tadic guilty of certain crimes charged in

7 the indictment. This is a pre-sentencing hearing

8 pursuant to Rule 100 of the Rules of Procedure and

9 Evidence of the Tribunal, and pursuant to that rule the

10 Prosecutor and the Defence may submit any relevant

11 information that may assist the Trial Chamber in

12 determining an appropriate sentence.

13 As I have indicated on that same day, the May 7th,

14 the Trial Chamber directed the parties to provide the

15 Trial Chamber with an indication of the submissions that

16 each wished to make today, and the Defence has filed a

17 sentencing notice listing the persons it intends to call

18 and, Mr. Vujin, you have indicated that you would require

19 45 minutes to one hour for each person. The Prosecutor

20 has filed a brief and material regarding the sentencing

21 policies in the former Yugoslavia as well as two

22 declarations from investigators and an affidavit from

23 Hakija Elezovic. The Prosecution has also filed a

24 request for leave to make an oral submission regarding

25 the sentencing, and that has been granted.

Page 8916

1 The Defence also filed a letter requesting the

2 protection of certain witnesses, stating that they

3 feared that they would be arrested while they were in

4 The Hague. That request was opposed by the

5 Prosecution. The Trial Chamber, however, granted that

6 request, treating it as a motion, even though the

7 precise requirements for those protective measures had

8 not been established. Finally, as I have indicated in

9 the Order of June 12th, the Trial Chamber directed the

10 parties to coordinate immediately with the Victims and

11 Witnesses Unit if assistance is needed for the transport

12 of witnesses and decided that the parties may offer

13 written statements or reports, as well as oral

14 statements during the pre-sentence hearing, and directed

15 the parties to submit written statements in lieu of oral

16 statements whenever possible.

17 The Trial Chamber also decided that any written

18 statements or reports offered by the parties will be

19 received and considered by the Trial Chamber in a manner

20 equivalent to oral statements. The Prosecution has

21 submitted two declarations by investigators and the

22 affidavit that I referred to, and in those declarations

23 there is information regarding the impact of Dusko

24 Tadic's crimes. These impact statements shall be

25 considered by the Trial Chamber to the extent that it

Page 8917

1 will assist the Trial Chamber in determining the

2 specific harm caused to the victims or to their families

3 by the crimes of Dusko Tadic. Some of the claims of the

4 victims as contained in those declarations relate to

5 monetary and other losses, which cannot be verified with

6 any certainty. The Trial Chamber, however, is not

7 concerned with the monetary value of the loss, but only

8 with the fact of loss, which, of course, varies with the

9 victim's economic status.

10 Now, during this hearing, the pre-sentencing

11 hearing, the Trial Chamber will be concerned only with

12 receiving submissions as to the character of the accused

13 and other matters that may assist it in determining the

14 appropriate sentence. We have had a lengthy trial and

15 we have afforded the parties an ample opportunity to

16 offer evidence as to the guilt or innocence of

17 Mr. Tadic. Thus, we will not hear statements regarding

18 culpability and we ask the parties to restrict their

19 submission to matters of character and other submissions

20 that bear on the sentencing process.

21 Mr. Vujin, you have indicated that you wish the

22 Prosecution to proceed first. The Prosecution has

23 indicated that it has no objection to proceeding that

24 way and has indicated that it would offer the

25 declarations I gather of the investigators as well as

Page 8918

1 the affidavit. Would you want to offer those into

2 evidence, Mr. Niemann?

3 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. I just want to clarify that

4 we didn't wish to proceed with our oral submission now.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: I understand that.

6 MR. NIEMANN: Certainly yes, your Honour, we wish to tender

7 the declarations and the affidavit into evidence.

8 JUDGE McDONALD: Have those been provided to counsel for

9 the Defence?

10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: Very good. They will be admitted if you

12 do not have an extra copy at this time -- they have been

13 filed.

14 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: They will be admitted and given an

16 appropriate exhibit number. Is there anything else you

17 have at this time by way of written statements?

18 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

19 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin, could you please at this time

20 give me a list of the -- either a list or at least the

21 names of the persons who you will be calling to give

22 oral statements, and if there are any written statements

23 that you wish to offer at this time also give me the

24 author of those.

25 MR. VUJIN: Yes, your Honours. We will be inviting

Page 8919

1 Mr. Ljubomir Tadic; (redacted); Mr. Nikola Petrovic;

2 Miss Valentina Tadic; Ms. Mira Tadic; and, as we have

3 already said, Professor Zivojin Aleksic, as an expert

4 witness.

5 As far as written statements are concerned, at

6 this point in time, if the Trial Chamber is inclined to

7 accept it, I can submit two statements, one by witness

8 Jovan Vukoje, and another from Mile Cavic, regarding

9 the character of the accused, Dusko Tadic. Cavic,

10 because of the traffic accident, as I said, was unable

11 to come in person, and Mr. Vukoje because of other

12 obligations. I apologise for omitting to mention that

13 we also have invited Ms. Ljubica Metselaar to testify

14 orally. She has been proposed before. She is listed

15 under number 12 of our submission.

16 JUDGE McDONALD: How many copies of the written statements

17 do you have?

18 MR. VUJIN: We have two copies.

19 JUDGE McDONALD: Have you provided counsel for the

20 Prosecution with a copy? Mr. Niemann?

21 MR. NIEMANN: No.

22 MR. VUJIN: We have a copy for the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE McDONALD: Very good. These will be marked how,

24 Mr. Bos? The first one, Mr. javic, will that be Defence

25 Exhibit 1? The second statement, is that from -- is

Page 8920

1 that Mr. or Ms. Jovan?

2 MR. VUJIN: Mr. Jovan Vukoje.

3 JUDGE McDONALD: Is this a psychiatrist or psychologist?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. The microphone is

5 not switched on. Excuse me.

6 MR. VUJIN: Mr. Vukoje is director of the centre

7 for social work in Prijedor. He is a graduate of

8 history, geography and defectology.

9 JUDGE McDONALD: They will then be admitted as Defence

10 Exhibit 1 for Mr. javic and 2 for Mr. Jovan, and a copy

11 has been provided to the prosecution.

12 As far as scheduling is concerned, as I am sure

13 everyone understands, at this point we have only one

14 courtroom and we have a number of matters that are being

15 handled in this one courtroom. So we have reserved only

16 the afternoons for today through Thursday from 2.30

17 until 5.30. If necessary, if we have not completed the

18 submissions at that time on Thursday, we are available

19 on Friday, July 4th, beginning at 10.00 am. At some

20 point there will also be a need to use this courtroom

21 for an initial appearance, and I will advise the parties

22 whether that will be held in the afternoon and cut into

23 our time. Hopefully it will be in the morning and so we

24 will be able to use completely the 2.30-5.30 through

25 Thursday and then perhaps all of Friday. Okay. If

Page 8921

1 there's nothing else, Mr. Vujin, you may proceed and

2 offer your first witness.

3 MR. VUJIN: We would like to call Mr. Ljubomir Tadic.

4 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Livingston, welcome. This is your

5 first appearance here.

6 MR. LIVINGSTON: Thank you very much, your Honour.

7 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. Thank you for being here.

8 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Ljubomir Tadic is coming. You have

9 additional witnesses, Mr. Vujin, , but they are not in

10 the building. They need to be brought here. So I have

11 asked Mr. Bos to tell the Victims and Witnesses Unit to

12 bring them to the building so that when Mr. Tadic

13 completes his statement we can then proceed with them.

14 MR. VUJIN: Your Honour, when we spoke to the Witness and

15 Victims Unit we thought that the Prosecutor would start

16 and present his positions, as is customary, so we

17 thought we would be inviting only one witness, because

18 the Prosecutor told us that he would need two hours, so

19 that there would not be time for more of our witnesses.

20 That is why we are ready today only for the testimony of

21 Mr. Ljubomir Tadic.

22 JUDGE McDONALD: We will arrange to bring over whatever or

23 whoever else is needed this afternoon. The Prosecution

24 filed its submission and indicated in the submission

25 that it would be in writing only and then filed a

Page 8922

1 request for leave to make a statement as to the

2 appropriate sentence, and, as I have indicated, I will

3 hear from counsel, after though, we hear from the

4 witnesses, either orally or from their written

5 statements. So we will hear Mr. Tadic and another

6 witness or another two witnesses should be brought over

7 so we can proceed. When we complete all of the

8 witnesses, we will hear from counsel, first from the

9 Prosecution and then from the Defence.

10 MR. VUJIN: Very well, your Honour. In that case we would

11 like to call (redacted) and Nikola Petrovic as the

12 next witnesses.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Together?

14 MR. VUJIN: I'm sorry. I thought you suggested we hear

15 Mr. Tadic and two more witnesses.

16 JUDGE McDONALD: Ljubomir Tadic, and then who will be the

17 next witness?

18 MR. VUJIN: (redacted).

19 JUDGE McDONALD: And the next witness after that?

20 MR. VUJIN: It will be Petrovic.

21 JUDGE McDONALD: Make sure we have enough witnesses to

22 carry on until 5.30. Then please bring in Mr. Ljubomir

23 Tadic.

24 (Witness enters court)

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Tadic, would you take the oath that's

Page 8923

1 in front of you, please?

2 Mr. Ljubomir Tadic (sworn)

3 Examined by Mr. Vujin

4 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you, Mr. Tadic. Mr. Vujin, you may

5 proceed.

6 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, your Honours. Mr. Tadic, you are

7 appearing before this Tribunal for the second time; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You have already testified in this case?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. We would now like to discuss some of the circumstances

13 which were not discussed when you first appeared before

14 this Tribunal, and those are circumstances and facts

15 linked to your family conditions and the personality and

16 character of your brother, Dusko Tadic. Are you ready

17 to answer questions on these matters?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Before the conflict and the events which led to the war

20 and armed conflict, where was your family living? When

21 I say family, I am thinking of your father and mother

22 and those living with him.

23 A. My family was living in Kozarac, my late father, my

24 mother, Dusko my brother, his wife and two children.

25 Q. How many children do your parents have?

Page 8924

1 A. My parents have four sons, four sons.

2 Q. You said that your father was deceased?

3 A. Yes, he passed away in 1989.

4 Q. And your mother is alive. How is she?

5 A. She's in very poor health.

6 Q. The house in which your father and mother lived and your

7 brother's family, is that house a family house?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you all live there in your youth in that house?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell me what were the relationships within the

12 family, how you were brought up?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Will you please describe the family relationships and

15 your relations with your brothers when you were young?

16 A. First of all, I have to say that our father was an

17 officer. He was a strict man, but extremely

18 honourable. He brought us up in the socialist communist

19 spirit, which at that time, as you know, was widespread

20 in Yugoslavia, that existed at the time. He never

21 taught us any kind of nationalism. On the contrary, he

22 would not allow us even to mention religion, because he

23 was a communist by conviction, and communists are

24 atheists and that is the spirit in which we were brought

25 up, in the socialist spirit. We were members of the

Page 8925

1 party while it existed. It all collapsed, of course.

2 Q. Mr. Tadic, let us go back for a moment to your relations

3 with your brothers. I'm interested in your neighbours.

4 A. Our neighbours were mostly Muslims. They were very good

5 neighbours. We were good friends. We grew up together

6 with them. I can only give you one example that I

7 remember very well, though I was small. Our father was

8 on duty. He was away and our mother was sick, and our

9 closest neighbours, Salik Hanjic, that is our

10 next-door-neighbour to the left, and his wife Mohiba

11 took care of us because our mother was sick. Their

12 house was small, as was ours in those days. We were

13 there for seven or eight days. We slept there because

14 our mother was in the hospital, but there weren't enough

15 beds, so all of us lay down one next to the other, their

16 son and us. There was never any distinction made

17 between us.

18 Q. Do you know a name called (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 A. Yes. He's a year older than me. He lives four or five

21 houses away.

22 Q. Is he older than Dusko Tadic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was he friends with Dusko Tadic?

25 A. No, it's not the same generation. He's older than me

Page 8926

1 but we all know him, and while Dusko was building his

2 cafe, he was one of the group of young men and

3 neighbours who were helping in building the cafe.

4 Q. Is there any reason why Dusko was not close with him?

5 A. No. I'm a bit embarrassed to say it, but this boy was

6 ill. Everyone called him "niho kuja". "Kuja" means a

7 bitch, I'm afraid. It was generally known that he had

8 intercourse with animals.

9 Q. That's enough. That's enough. I would like to hear

10 about your relations with the other neighbours. Did

11 families help each other where necessary and so on?

12 A. Yes. I must tell you that in those days when we were

13 boys we had a small house. The house that stands there

14 now was built much later. Our father started to build

15 it and all our neighbours helped us. In this small

16 place and even when one doesn't have much money, one can

17 build a house like this, because everyone will help.

18 Q. Talking about that house, were there any disputes before

19 your father's death linked to property rights amongst

20 your brothers?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were there any disputes after your father's death?

23 A. Well, some slight differences, but it is well-known that

24 after death the proceedings take some time, but in our

25 case it didn't take very long. Our older brother may

Page 8927

1 have been under somebody's influence, probably under the

2 influence of his wife, because she was in a court

3 proceedings in Croatia with her brother over some

4 property, but we overcame that.

5 Q. Was that the former wife?

6 A. Yes, Sofija.

7 Q. Could you tell me whether as a boy or later Dusko had a

8 hobby?

9 A. As far as I know, and I know quite well, Dusko as a

10 little boy -- you know, all of us were talented

11 painters. I'm also pretty talented for painting but

12 Dusko had the greatest talent of all. Also Stojan, our

13 oldest brother also used to paint, but Dusko was the

14 youngest. I remember as a little boy he would often

15 come in all muddy, you know, and he would make little

16 figures, little sculptures of sorts. I remember when he

17 was a biggish boy, when he was in 7th grade, I think,

18 then his competence in painting and sculpture was fully

19 expressed, and I remember that he made a bust of

20 President Tito, and we kept it in the house for quite

21 some time. It was made of clay. I mean, that's the

22 only material they could use at that time.

23 Q. Can we show this photocopy so that all could see it?

24 Could you please show it on the monitor?

25 JUDGE McDONALD: We will mark that as Exhibit 3.

Page 8928

1 MR. VUJIN: Do you recognise the person in this picture?

2 A. Of course I do. This is our late father. I am not

3 surprised at all he did such a good job. If he could do

4 an identical image of Tito, why couldn't he do our

5 father.

6 Q. This portrait that Dusko did in jail, is it quite

7 realistic?

8 A. It is incredible. It is identical really. I have his

9 picture. He sent me a copy.

10 Q. While you were younger, what was the character of Dusko

11 Tadic? Did he like to fight? Did he like to quarrel?

12 Could you say something about that?

13 A. Let me tell you that Dusko was the youngest of our

14 brothers. He was the pet in our family. You know what

15 it's like when somebody is the youngest and he was

16 everybody's pet. He was a quiet boy. He played with

17 everybody. When I was a child I was fond of soccer

18 football and I played football, but he didn't like that

19 very much. He liked to paint, as I said, and this

20 talent of his was expressed then and even after that he

21 went to that kind of school.

22 Q. You said in addition to painting you also played

23 football. Did Dusko Tadic have another hobby like

24 bicycles, motorbikes?

25 A. No, football, he played a very little football. He

Page 8929

1 played with us but he was not a very good player. I

2 personally never saw him ride on a bicycle because I

3 think he doesn't even know how to ride a bicycle.

4 Q. What about a motorbike?

5 A. I don't think he can drive a motorbike either. I think

6 in 1985 or something like that he received his driver's

7 licence, passed his driver's test for driving a car but

8 not a motorbike. I'm sure he doesn't know how to drive

9 one.

10 Q. It is well-known that in your family you were all in

11 karate?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When did Dusko start with karate?

14 A. Dusko started with karate just before he went to school

15 to Belgrade.

16 Q. That's where he started doing that?

17 A. A bit.

18 Q. Did he continue after Belgrade?

19 A. Yes, for some time. He didn't have much time for

20 sports. Although he registered at a club in Kozarac and

21 he led it for some time, but this was a smallish club,

22 mostly children, girls.

23 Q. Let us talk about the club a bit. I'm interested in the

24 organisation of the club, who participated. Was it

25 younger categories of people, older, the ethnic

Page 8930

1 composition? How much do you know about this?

2 A. As you know, the club is a legal person, that is to say

3 that it has to be registered and it has to have

4 leadership, a management board. So most of the -- all

5 the people there were local people, and you know that

6 over 90 per cent of the population of Kozarac were

7 Muslims. So it was only natural that most of them would

8 be in the leadership of the club, because it was the

9 children of people from Kozarac who were training there.

10 Q. The children who were training there, were they Serbs,

11 Muslims and Croats?

12 A. I remember that I would come and hold a seminar there

13 and help Dule a bit in the club and most of the children

14 there, boys and girls -- there were less adults. Most

15 of the members were children, boys and girls. As you

16 know, in karate boys focus on techniques and so-called

17 kati techniques. Dusko taught them that and children do

18 not really fight. They compete in kati. So this was

19 accentuated.

20 Q. Did Dusko understand his activity in karate as an

21 activity that would develop the spirit or rather

22 fighting skills?

23 A. The kind of spirit that we had, because we trained with

24 these people from Belgrade, this is Yazarau karate,

25 Badaru. That means the path of friendship. Of over 100

Page 8931

1 styles that exist in the world, we adopted this style,

2 and this is less dominant in Yugoslavia than Shotic and

3 other styles that are more aggressive, and the symbol of

4 this style is a pigeon, that is to say friendship and

5 peace, and we liked that style, because that is how we

6 fostered friendship, fraternity, unity, camaraderie.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tadic. I'm interested because you

8 mentioned a few minutes ago when you were talking about

9 your father and how he brought you up, and he was a

10 partisan and he raised you in that spirit in the former

11 Yugoslavia, I'm interested in the attitude of your

12 family. When I say your family, I mean your family,

13 you, Dusko Tadic, particularly Dusko Tadic, in relation

14 to the Chetnik movement, towards the Chetnik movement.

15 A. Let me tell you. I already said my father was a

16 partisan. He was one of the people who organised the

17 uprising in Kozarac. It is quite illogical that we

18 could think of Chetniks, and we know that it was only by

19 chance that our father survived the slaughter in Josici,

20 because this is a Chetnik region. Our father was in the

21 First Proletarian Brigade. He was heavily wounded. He

22 was transferred to Josin near Celinsi. This is a

23 Chetnik area. It wasn't that Chetniks were all over

24 there. There were partisans there in part too. They

25 had secured that hospital. When Dr. Mladen Stojanovic

Page 8932

1 was killed, the well-known partisan commander, one

2 night, over 50 partisans were killed that night,

3 patients from that hospital. Our father was also a

4 patient in that hospital, and he just happened to

5 survive by chance, because he was lying behind the door

6 and the knife with which they tried to kill him went

7 through his cheek and he had a scar on his face and over

8 here too. So he pretended to be dead.

9 Q. Can we say that generally in your family and in the case

10 of Dusko Tadic there was a revulsion towards Chetniks?

11 A. Oh, yes, of course. Perhaps people could even have

12 problems because of that, but I am never going to wear a

13 Chetnik symbol, and not a single person from my family

14 would ever do that ever.

15 Q. I am asking you this because during the trial we had the

16 opportunity of seeing that in one period, according to

17 the testimonies of witnesses, your brother wore a

18 beard. Did he wear it because of his affiliation to the

19 Chetnik movement or was there another reason?

20 A. Well, I also wore a beard when I was young for some time

21 and then I shaved it. Dusko didn't wear a beard. He

22 just wore a beard at one point in time. He was ill.

23 Something was wrong, I think, on his right-hand side.

24 He had some kind of tissue that started growing out

25 there. This was very ugly to see. I told our mother:

Page 8933

1 "Talk him into operating on that. I'll try to find a

2 surgeon in Banja Luka so that he would handle that".

3 She said he was afraid.

4 Q. Connected to this beard also we had heard that there was

5 an exchange of personalities?

6 A. Yes, I remember Mr. Wladimiroff was the first lawyer, and

7 I was convinced that Dusko did not take part in any of

8 this and I came to the conclusion and I will always say

9 that, that he was replaced --

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Excuse me, Mr. Tadic. Yes.

11 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we object to this line of

12 questioning. It is attempting to traverse issues that

13 were raised and dealt with at length in the trial. If

14 it is any assistance to my friend, the Prosecution makes

15 no issue about Mr. Tadic's character and the fact that he

16 had a beard.

17 JUDGE McDONALD: Well, Mr. Vujin, tell me where you are

18 going with this line of testimony. I was concerned that

19 there was statements that were going to be offered

20 regarding Mr. Wladimiroff's involvement as prior counsel,

21 and I thought that perhaps that was not necessary. That

22 was really my concern, but tell me where you are going

23 with this?

24 MR. VUJIN: The only direction that the Defence wishes to

25 move into is to depict the possibility of Dusko Tadic

Page 8934

1 before this court, because when you decide on the

2 punishment, you have to know everything about his

3 personality from his youth until these events and

4 certainly the best information of this sort can be

5 provided by his family and the people who knew him

6 best. So we read all the statements carefully and we

7 discussed this with our colleague, Mr. Wladimiroff, and

8 there was no questioning of that sort, that is to show

9 the personality of Dusko Tadic. So all of this is aimed

10 at showing the personality of Dusko Tadic, his

11 character, because we believe that this is very

12 important for your decision, because we expect that

13 decision to be passed by taking into consideration all

14 the circumstances which are taken into account in all

15 well-known legal systems.

16 The level of culpability, criminal liability,

17 according to our system is also important, and that

18 level cannot be determined without fully looking into

19 the personality and character of the person concerned,

20 everything that can portray his character. So I don't

21 think that the objection of the Prosecutor is

22 well-founded.

23 JUDGE McDONALD: What does the beard have to do with that?

24 I think you have covered that, that he typically didn't

25 wear a beard but wore one because of a growth on his

Page 8935

1 neck. I think that is even in the report of the

2 psychiatrist in Germany. I think you can move on to

3 another area. I heard Mr. Tadic make the reference to --

4 MR. VUJIN: Absolutely. I will move on.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: I heard Mr. Tadic make the reference to

6 Mr. Nihad Seferovic [TO BE REDACTED] as well as Sofjia

7 Tadic. I hope you would confine the statement you

8 elicit from Mr. Tadic to the character of the accused or

9 the convicted person in this instance. Thank you.

10 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, your Honour. We shall proceed and

11 you can reject our questions, of course, and we will

12 accept that.

13 Do you know about the activities of your brother,

14 Dusko Tadic, in the humanitarian field?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you explain these activities and what he did?

17 A. During the previous system as a boy he was a member of

18 the youth organisation like all of us. He collected aid

19 according to instructions received from adults, from the

20 party organisation, and afterwards, as far as I know,

21 during the conflicts. After the conflict in Kozarac,

22 when Dusko came there to his home town, and after having

23 worked in the Reserve Militia, then he worked in the Red

24 Cross, Prijedor, too. He helped many people on many

25 occasions especially to refugees, Serbs who came from

Page 8936

1 Sasinska Krinanj who moved in there, but I must say that

2 he particularly cared about a Croat family that came to

3 stay right next door to us, the house of Salih Hantic.

4 They are Croats. Dusko accommodated them there. He

5 helped them. He brought them food every day. It was

6 very difficult then and it was dangerous to help people

7 of a different nationality, different ethnic

8 background. Dusko didn't want to do them any harm. He

9 wanted to help them. They are still living in Kozarac.

10 They are leading a normal life. If somebody would come

11 and ask about Dusko, ask them, you would see what they

12 thought of Dusko.

13 Q. And, finally, Mr. Tadic, do you know whether any criminal

14 proceedings are being carried out today against your

15 brother in Banja Luka?

16 A. Yes. I was in the command of the 5th Kozarac bringing

17 aid in Omarska perhaps half a year ago or a year ago,

18 and there is -- criminal proceedings were instituted

19 against him then, because he didn't want to go to fight

20 in the war. He didn't want to wear a uniform because

21 not at a single point in time did Dusko want to wage

22 war, did he want to go to the war. He thought it was a

23 stupid, pointless war. It was the worst thing that

24 could happen to people, and I think that he was afraid

25 also, just like all of us. I tell you, I wasn't in the

Page 8937

1 war but I was afraid whenever a grenade fell. There was

2 not a single man who was not afraid. He was afraid of

3 the war. He was terribly frightened of the war, and he

4 said that as much as he could and in every way he could,

5 he would try to avoid participating in the war, and that

6 when he couldn't he would probably go as far away as

7 possible and that is what he did.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tadic. I'm just interested in a few more

9 things or rather one more thing.

10 JUDGE STEPHEN: I wonder if I can interrupt to ask you. I

11 didn't understand that last piece of evidence. You

12 asked about criminal proceedings being brought and I

13 thought you were referring to criminal proceedings a

14 year or so ago. That seemed to be the evidence. Is

15 that what you are involved with?

16 MR. VUJIN: Yes.

17 JUDGE STEPHEN: Proceedings against Mr. Tadic instituted a

18 year or so ago?

19 MR. VUJIN: Yes.

20 JUDGE STEPHEN: The evidence did not clarify what they

21 were, and before you leave the topic, you might clarify

22 it.

23 MR. VUJIN: I can try to clarify it with the witness. Thank

24 you very much.

25 You said that criminal proceedings were instituted

Page 8938

1 because he ran away from his unit and because he didn't

2 respond to the call that came from the military unit.

3 Did you hear of Mile Cavic?

4 A. Yes, I think that was the commander of that unit and

5 they wanted to mobilise Dusko into that unit.

6 Q. Do you have any information as to how many times they

7 came to call for your brother and how many times they

8 came to bring him to that unit?

9 A. Several times in Prijedor and Banja Luka they looked for

10 him and found him and brought him in twice, I think.

11 Q. In the written submission we submitted today you have a

12 statement by Mile Cavic, the commander of that company,

13 concerning that event, and during this hearing we are

14 going to give you all the court materials on that?

15 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you. So none of this was a year or

16 year and a half ago. It was some 3 or 4 years ago that

17 the witness is speaking of; is that right?

18 MR. VUJIN: No. The event itself took place three or four

19 years ago, specifically in 1993, but criminal

20 proceedings were instituted in 1996, while they managed

21 to gather all the data and they were looking for Dusko

22 Tadic, and when they definitely realised that he went

23 away, that he left the country. There are many such

24 cases -- there were many such cases and the Prosecutor

25 would initiate proceedings as sufficient information

Page 8939

1 came in.

2 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

3 MR. VUJIN: Thank you. Mr. Tadic, did your brother drink

4 alcohol or was he inclined to do so?

5 A. No. No. He didn't drink at all. He would drink fruit

6 juice and sometimes with a group of friends he would

7 perhaps have a glass of wine, but these were exceptional

8 situations, when we had parties with our friends. We

9 would visit one another. So these would be exceptional

10 occasions. Perhaps he would have a glass or two of

11 wine, nothing more than that.

12 Q. And the final question, Mr. Tadic. Before these events

13 and apart from the proceedings that we mentioned, did

14 Dusko Tadic have any problems with the authorities and

15 were any kind of proceedings ever instituted against

16 him?

17 A. You mean the previous authorities before these events?

18 Q. Was he ever brought before a court of law or anything

19 like that?

20 A. No. No. I don't think that the authorities knew them.

21 The commune was Prijedor and the local community was

22 Kozarac. The authorities didn't really know him. He

23 didn't make any kind of problem, because he went to

24 school in Belgrade and then he went to school in Zagreb,

25 the Applied Arts School. Our father couldn't afford to

Page 8940

1 send all of us to school. There were four of us. He

2 came back from Belgrade from school. Then he set up

3 this karate club. Then he went to Ljubjana, Zagreb,

4 Sisak, Belgrade. He had a private company, a firm of

5 his own, and when he came back, yes, before our father

6 died he came back, and then he opened a cafe. He earned

7 some money and then also before they went to Libya and

8 then a war broke out there. Then they had to go back.

9 He really wanted to support his family, his two young

10 children. If a person doesn't work, he can't survive,

11 and it's very difficult to be the breadwinner,

12 especially in our situation back there now.

13 Q. Mr. Tadic, to the best of your knowledge what was the

14 relationship within the family of Dusko Tadic between

15 him and his wife, etc?

16 A. Very good.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann?

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Niemann

20 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Tadic, you confirmed in your

21 evidence-in-chief that you came before this Chamber last

22 year and gave evidence in the course of the trial. Do

23 you remember saying that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On that occasion you gave your evidence publicly?

Page 8941

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And, as I understand, there was no measures for

3 protection or anything offered in favour of you on that

4 occasion?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On this occasion are you aware of the fact that there

7 has been an order made for your safe conduct to the

8 Hague, that you won't be arrested while you are here?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Has anything changed since the last occasion that you

11 were here to make you want to make such a request?

12 A. Probably they have. That is why I made such a request.

13 Q. Would you mind telling us what they are?

14 A. What has changed is that I know that Dusko Tadic did not

15 participate in any sense in those conflicts. He has

16 been in prison for three years and four months, and I

17 know who fixed it, and I made my own investigation, and

18 I am convinced that he has been substituted for somebody

19 else, and if Dusko Tadic were to grow a beard for ten or

20 fifteen days and have a haircut like that man, as that

21 man did when Dusko Tadic was in the area of the Prijedor

22 municipality, you would see that they were identical.

23 If you took Dusko Tadic outside this courtroom, you

24 wouldn't be able to recognise them one from the other.

25 Q. I'm asking about yourself. What have you done to make

Page 8942

1 you request a safe conduct order?

2 A. I asked protection because I was a soldier in the army

3 of Republika Srpska. If I know and I am 100 per cent

4 sure that that man did nothing and this other man is

5 driving the latest Mercedes and is enjoying luxury in

6 life, then of course I will ask for protection.

7 Q. I will interrupt you again. I'm asking what you have

8 done. What have you personally done between last year

9 and now to make you want to make this request for safe

10 conduct?

11 A. I have been watching and listening to this trial, and I

12 told Mr. Wladimiroff about this man, and you did nothing

13 about him.

14 Q. I am not asking you about this other man. I am asking

15 you about what you have done.

16 A. I apologise.

17 MR. VUJIN: I beg your pardon. Maybe I could be of some

18 assistance. Have you received any threats in the

19 meantime?

20 A. I will probably have problems when I go back home, you

21 see. That is what the situation is like over there. I

22 have not received any threats from you personally, but

23 for months I was called up at home. I was threatened,

24 two women's voices and two men's voices. I had a

25 recording. I gave that to Mr. Wladimiroff. I was

Page 8943

1 threatened recently when Dusko was found guilty. These

2 may be Serbs. They may be anyone. I don't know. But

3 it is a fact that I have been placed in such a situation

4 that I don't trust anyone any more. I have apologised,

5 but I asked for protection so as to be sure that I could

6 return to my family safely, because if I would have to

7 prove my innocence like my brother has done, maybe I

8 would suffer the same fate.

9 MR. VUJIN: I apologise. Maybe this is outside the subject

10 matter of this pre-sentencing proceedings to talk about

11 the character of the witness at this stage.

12 JUDGE McDONALD: The question was asked some time ago why

13 the witness had asked for freedom from being arrested

14 and whether he had done anything that would cause him to

15 fear that he would be arrested and, as I understand your

16 answer, it is that you have not done anything -- correct

17 me if I am wrong -- but you have received threats, and

18 you did not know what might happen to you if you came to

19 the Hague. I have omitted a lot. That's for sure.

20 A. Threats, you mean? I just told you that I was

21 threatened on the phone several times, so I asked for

22 protection simply.

23 MR. NIEMANN: Just confining yourself to that specific

24 issue, the threats that you received on the phone, are

25 you suggesting that that came from somebody in the

Page 8944

1 Tribunal. Is that what you are suggesting?

2 A. No, no.

3 Q. So you are not suggesting that you are fearful of anyone

4 in the Tribunal causing you any harm or difficulty while

5 you are in The Hague?

6 A. No.

7 Q. No further questions.

8 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin, do you have additional

9 questions?

10 MR. VUJIN: No, thank you.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: We have no questions. Thank you,

12 Mr. Tadic, for coming again to the Tribunal. You are now

13 excused.

14 A. Thank you.

15 (Witness withdraws from court)

16 JUDGE McDONALD: We will stand in recess until 4 o'clock.

17 Hopefully your other witnesses will be here by then,

18 Mr. Vujin.

19 (3.40 pm)

20 (Short break)

21 (4.10 pm)

22 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann?

23 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. There was a matter

24 that I was wondering if I might raise at the moment.

25 There is a name mentioned in the testimony which I have

Page 8945

1 written on this piece of yellow paper, which I would ask

2 to be shown to the Defence and your Honours.

3 JUDGE McDONALD: You wish a redaction?

4 MR. NIEMANN: I understand I am too late, your Honour, for

5 the redaction. It will appear in the transcript unless

6 your Honours make an order to the contrary. It appears

7 at page 19, line 16. I simply ask that that name be

8 redacted from the transcript. It was a witness, your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: I know that it was mentioned twice.

11 MR. NIEMANN: I will find out the reference.

12 JUDGE McDONALD: Both references.

13 MR. NIEMANN: Both references I would ask to be redacted.

14 JUDGE McDONALD: Is there any objection, Mr. Vujin?

15 MR. VUJIN: We understand the submission of the Prosecutor,

16 but I was saying at the beginning in connection with

17 other persons it is very difficult to ask the witness:

18 "Who is so and so?" You know that was a problem we had

19 at the beginning. I believe that there is no reason to

20 have this name redacted from the transcript.

21 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann?

22 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I think I will have to go into

23 closed session or into private session if --

24 JUDGE McDONALD: I remember the witness. The witness was

25 not a protected witness.

Page 8946

1 MR. NIEMANN: No, that's right, your Honour.

2 JUDGE McDONALD: Why don't we do that at the close. Is

3 Mr. Ljubomir -- I understand he is to be recalled. Is he

4 available now? Can we hear Mr. Ljubomir and another

5 witness and then do this at the end, since we do not

6 have enough time to redact it?

7 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

8 MR. VUJIN: Mr. Ljubomir.

9 MR. NIEMANN: Is this witness being recalled?

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Yes. I was advised that Mr. Ljubomir Tadic

11 is to be recalled. Do you have any objection,

12 Mr. Niemann? I had assumed you had been told of this.

13 MR. NIEMANN: I have heard of it but I was not aware whether

14 he was to be recalled.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: We will hear further from Mr. Tadic.

16 (Witness re-enters court)

17 Mr. Ljubomir Tadic (recalled).

18 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Tadic, you had been excused. I thought

19 that your testimony -- you had completed your

20 testimony. You had previously taken an oath to tell the

21 truth. I will ask that you confirm that you still

22 accept that oath and the testimony that you will be

23 giving will be under oath, the same oath that you took

24 before. Do you agree to that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8947

1 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin?

2 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, your Honour.

3 Further Examined by Mr. Vujin

4 MR. VUJIN: After the examination, during the break, we came

5 to the conclusion that we have not fully clarified the

6 circumstances recording a part of your testimony when

7 you said, and I think that is quite clear, that your

8 brother has been persecuted by the bodies of the

9 Republika Srpska?

10 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

11 Q. We would like to clarify a little the circumstances that

12 led up to this persecution, aside from his failing to

13 respond to the call-up. You are aware that upon the

14 issuance of the mobilisation he tried and managed to be

15 engaged as a reserve traffic policeman. Did you

16 participate in this? In what way? Will you explain

17 please?

18 A. At that time Dusko was with me. Rather, he was in Banja

19 Luka. He spent most of his time in my house. The house

20 that he was staying in is not far from my flat, where I

21 live. He used my telephone and on several occasions I

22 tried to get in touch with Mr. Dusan Jankovic, Deputy

23 Chief of the Interior in Prijedor. He is a close family

24 friend, and I tried to intervene so that he may join up

25 with the traffic, reserve traffic police and avoid the

Page 8948

1 military call-up. We got into touch. I said traffic

2 policeman, yes. We got in touch and we also called

3 Radovan Vokic, who was an active policeman, and Dusan

4 Jankovic was chief of the traffic police, and that is

5 why we called him, and he promised to admit Dusko as a

6 member of the reserve traffic police. As I said when I

7 was here the last time, the general mobilisation was on

8 16th June 1992.

9 Q. Mr. Tadic, after all that, when your brother was arrested

10 and virtually kidnapped, did you know where he was? Was

11 the family aware of his whereabouts?

12 A. I knew he was having problems, since he was working in

13 Kozarac in the local commune.

14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I would ask that my friend use

15 terminology other than "kidnapped" or if he wants to use

16 that terminology, to explain in what context he uses it.

17 JUDGE McDONALD: I will overrule your objection. You may

18 proceed, Mr. Vujin.

19 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, your Honour. For my learned friend

20 to hear and understand why we use this term, it is

21 because our client, Mr. Dusko Tadic, was taken away in a

22 manner that corresponds to the term used, and that is

23 why I use the term. Therefore, Mr. Ljubomir Tadic, were

24 you aware where your brother was? Did you look for

25 him? How did you look for him?

Page 8949

1 A. Yes, I did. I looked for him. I reacted immediately

2 when I learned what had happened. I called Prijedor

3 several times. Nobody wanted to answer. Then I went

4 there myself. I found a couple of people. Nobody knew

5 anything or didn't want to say anything. I came across

6 the former President of SDS in Prijedor, Simo Miskovic.

7 I asked him and he said: "I know nothing but I'll try to

8 find out ". Then I learned that he was in Gradacac. I

9 assumed that was where he could be, because that unit

10 was in Gradacac. Through a colleague of mine, a lawyer

11 in the company, Ludi Jariz, that I worked in, he was

12 also with a unit there. Then I asked him to go and

13 check and find out where my brother is. He was arrested

14 and taken away and I don't know what happened to him.

15 It was very difficult. For a moment I thought he had

16 even been killed.

17 Q. Did he manage to get away?

18 A. Yes, he did. He got away, but then he was arrested once

19 again and taken to the front. Afterwards he didn't want

20 to go anywhere. I know exactly the policeman who

21 arrested him. I think his name was Desimir. After his

22 arrest in Germany I found Desimir and he said at one

23 point that he would testify to that effect, but he was

24 probably not allowed to.

25 Q. Who didn't permit him?

Page 8950

1 A. The people in Prijedor.

2 Q. After July 1st, 1993, when he left the unit for the last

3 time, was he in hiding?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where?

6 A. He hid in my apartment until he left for Belgrade.

7 Q. And from Belgrade?

8 A. And from Belgrade to Germany and then I learned through

9 the media that he had been arrested.

10 Q. Do you know -- you probably do -- that he had problems

11 with his apartment in Prijedor, that he was evicted from

12 his flat? Can you tell us anything about that?

13 A. Yes. He was given an apartment for temporary use in

14 Pecani. He was there with his family for a time. When

15 these arrests occurred, as he didn't have permanent

16 tenancy over this flat, he was evicted, and I think a

17 colleague of his wife gave them a small apartment as you

18 enter Prijedor, a building on the left-hand side with

19 four or five stories -- there's a bank downstairs -- and

20 he used this flat temporarily. I know he didn't dare to

21 go and pick up his things so he asked me to do it. I

22 found a colleague. I gave him 50 Deutschemarks for the

23 fuel to take his truck, and I went to him and my oldest

24 son Nenad; a man called Slobodan, the owner of this

25 truck; Saca Maric, a young man who was on leave at the

Page 8951

1 time, a man from Banja Luka, who knew Dusko well, and

2 before Dusko's departure I think they kept company in

3 Banja Luka. We went to Prijedor and very quickly

4 secretly we collected his things -- there were very few

5 -- because he didn't dare go himself.

6 Q. Did your brother ever get anything from the state

7 authorities in the sense of an apartment or any other

8 property or anything in the sense of a reward?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Let us go back to the causes of the persecution. Do you

11 know that before the conflict broke out in Kozarac were

12 there any attempts to clear up certain things that

13 occurred as a dispute between the municipality and the

14 citizens of Kozarac?

15 A. Yes, I know quite a bit about those events and I can

16 provide documents as evidence. Quite recently I was

17 looking for some documents and I found a document. I

18 can give it to you tomorrow. When I was in Kozarac I

19 said that I had a beer discount store, and I have a

20 document when that beer was being delivered on the 21st

21 for the last time. So I spent quite a bit of time

22 there. I know what was happening. I know that Dusko

23 was a member of the civic forum.

24 Q. Now what is that?

25 A. Well, it's a kind of a non-party organisation, an

Page 8952

1 organisation which rallied Serbs, Muslims and all

2 others, people who -- I knew who led this organisation.

3 Q. At whose request did he join?

4 A. At the request of Kemal Susic, a teacher of physical

5 education and a neighbour of ours, who actually formed

6 this civil alliance, and I was present when he asked

7 Dusko to join him so that they should form a delegation

8 and go to Prijedor. The atmosphere was highly tense at

9 the time and everybody was afraid, including Dusko, and

10 of course the Muslims in Kozarac, too, that a conflict

11 could break out. There were lots of people, as anywhere

12 else. I do not claim that only the Muslims were

13 extremists. There were extremists on all sides, the

14 Serbs, the Muslims and Croats. In Kozarac that were

15 extremists from among the members of the SDA that would

16 not allow this civil forum to function. There were many

17 provocations. I remember Kemal Susic took his pupils

18 and led them along the Main Street of Kozarac bearing

19 placards. They were all there together.

20 Q. Did your brother participate in those talks with

21 representatives of the Prijedor municipality?

22 A. Yes. I was there. There was Dusko -- maybe I won't

23 remember all the names -- there was Dusko, Kemal Susic,

24 Hamdija Kahrimanovic -- I think he was the school

25 principal at the time -- Fazic. He was director of the

Page 8953

1 sawmill.

2 Q. Do you consider this to have been one of the reasons --

3 JUDGE McDONALD: Excuse me. You have an objection.

4 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. I don't know why we are

5 traversing all of this evidence which we went through at

6 great length at trial. I don't see how anyway it

7 assists your Honour in assessing the character of

8 Mr. Tadic, so I object to it, because I don't see where

9 it is leading us.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin, we did hear testimony about

11 Mr. Tadic's involvement with the group of Muslims and

12 Serbs, as I recall, meeting with mostly Muslims, and

13 Mr. Tadic was representative because he was Serb, meeting

14 with authorities in Prijedor. We heard a lot of

15 testimony about that and we heard regarding Kemal

16 Susic. We don't need to hear about Mr. Kemal Susic,

17 that's for sure. So I think as far as his involvement

18 and Mr. Tadic's involvement in this effort, we've heard

19 it. If you want to highlight something, then you may.

20 MR. VUJIN: Yes. We don't insist on the name of these

21 witnesses. We are just trying to convey to you, as the

22 Trial Chamber, the facts which will serve as a basis for

23 you to be able to draw conclusions on the character of

24 Dusko Tadic as well as the fact that he was persecuted

25 by Republika Srpska, and this persecution started when

Page 8954

1 he joined this Civil Forum and when he refused to be

2 mobilised, and he sought connections and friends to join

3 the reserve traffic police, refusing to bear arms and

4 wear a uniform, and we feel this is important for his

5 characterisation.

6 One further question for Mr. Tadic.

7 JUDGE McDONALD: As long as we are focussing on his

8 character and not the character of witnesses who have

9 come to testify, because this may be kind of a way to

10 challenge the evidence that has already been received

11 and accepted, and it has happened twice. I'm afraid

12 that we are now getting close to a third incident. If

13 that's not where you are going, fine, but we are aware

14 of this. So one further question on this.

15 MR. VUJIN: Mr. Tadic, do you believe that your brother,

16 Dusko Tadic, could return safely to the Republika

17 Srpska?

18 A. I wouldn't advise it since the people in power, who came

19 into power in 1992 are still in power. The same people

20 are in power, so I would not advise him to go back.

21 Q. Do you feel that he would be persecuted?

22 A. He wouldn't be safe and his very life may be in danger.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann?

25 Just one question, Mr. Tadic. You testified a few

Page 8955

1 moments ago about your calling in an effort to obtain a

2 position for Mr. Tadic as a traffic policeman. Do you

3 recall that?

4 A. Yes, I think so.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: You mentioned a number of names of people

6 whom you called. Did you also call Mr. Vokic? Do you

7 remember your testimony when you were here and you

8 testified you called Mr. Vokic and he is related, a

9 distant relative?

10 A. Radovan Vokic.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: You did?

12 A. Radovan Vokic among others. He was already an active

13 policeman, traffic policeman. He was already employed

14 full-time, so he could help to persuade our friend to

15 admit Dusko as a reserve traffic policeman.

16 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin, do you have additional

17 questions?

18 MR. VUJIN: None. Thank you.

19 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann?

20 MR. NIEMANN: No.

21 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Tadic, you are excused once again.

22 Thank you very much for coming. I think you are

23 permanently excused. Mr. Vujin, would you call your

24 next witness, please?

25 A. Thank you.

Page 8956

1 (Witness withdraws from court)

2 (Witness enters court)

3 Witness sworn

4 Examined by Mr. Vujin

5 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. Mr. Vujin, you may proceed.

6 MR. VUJIN: Thank you. Madam, you are a friend of the Tadic

7 family. You and your husband were friends with some of

8 the Tadic family members?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. With whom?

11 A. With all of them.

12 Q. Do you know the family circumstances involved?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was the life of the Tadic family like and where did

15 they live?

16 A. They lived in Kozarac and they lived the life of an

17 ordinary family.

18 Q. Who lived in their family home?

19 A. Dusko and his family, the mother and the father.

20 Q. Are his parents still alive?

21 A. The father died. The mother is still alive.

22 Q. Do you know what the mother's health is like now?

23 A. She's very ill.

24 Q. So you were friends practically?

25 A. With the family of Dusko Tadic.

Page 8957

1 Q. Do you know the other brothers of Dusko Tadic?

2 A. Yes, I know them very well.

3 Q. Did you meet them also?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where usually?

6 A. In Kozarac.

7 Q. In which situations?

8 A. Usually on 1st May, when they slaughtered animals, also

9 sometimes for the New Year.

10 Q. You mentioned the slaughter of animals. You mean pigs,

11 swine, as customary?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did Dusko Tadic take part in these rituals?

14 A. No, he usually did housework.

15 Q. Did he avoid that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Why?

18 A. Because he couldn't stand the sight of blood. He

19 couldn't stand it.

20 Q. Could you tell us when would you see each other, would

21 Dusko drink alcoholic beverages?

22 A. No, very rarely, only wine, a glass or two.

23 Q. Did you ever see him drunk?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Would you say whether Dusko was inclined to quarrel,

Page 8958

1 fight?

2 A. No. No. He was a very good man and a good friend.

3 Q. What does that mean, being a good friend, in your

4 opinion?

5 A. I consider him to be a good friend and I think that it

6 is sufficient to say that this is my second time that I

7 have appeared before this court.

8 Q. Tell me when you would see each other and sit together,

9 did you talk about every day matters, for example

10 whether somebody had a hobby or whether he had a hobby?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know whether Dusko had a hobby?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What?

15 A. He was fond of painting.

16 Q. Could you tell me how come you know? What did you

17 receive?

18 A. That is because I had a painting made by him in my

19 apartment. It's a present.

20 Q. He gave it to you as a present?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So you would sit together and talk?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. If you don't mind, can I ask you what are you by

25 nationality in terms of ethnic background?

Page 8959

1 A. I'm a Croat.

2 Q. Your husband?

3 A. He is a Croat.

4 Q. When you would sit together and talk, did Dusko Tadic or

5 any member of his family ever bring up that question of

6 Croats or Muslims?

7 A. No, no.

8 Q. Did they divide people according to ethnic background?

9 A. No, we also had Muslim friends too.

10 Q. Do you know what their relationship was with their

11 neighbours and whether they had Muslims who were

12 neighbours?

13 A. Yes, and they had very good relationships with them. I

14 know very well the next-door-neighbour of Dusko Tadic.

15 Kiba was her name.

16 Q. And the relations were very good?

17 A. Very good.

18 Q. Do you know about Dusko Tadic's activity in the sports

19 field?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was he involved in?

22 A. I think that he trained karate. I don't know if I'm

23 using the right terminology.

24 Q. Do you know anything more about that, whether he was a

25 coach? Who did he coach?

Page 8960

1 A. Young people.

2 Q. Where?

3 A. In Kozarac.

4 Q. And these young people, of what ethnic background were

5 there?

6 A. Most of them Muslims.

7 Q. After being friends with Dusko Tadic and before these

8 actual events in the territory of Opstina Prijedor took

9 place, did you know anything about the political

10 activities of Dusko Tadic and whether he had any?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know that Dusko was persecuted by the authorities

13 of Republika Srpska?

14 A. At that time he stayed with me. I knew that something

15 was happening but I didn't know about anything in

16 detail.

17 Q. Did you know that he was evicted from his apartment?

18 A. Yes, I know that but I don't know how and why.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you know that Dusko was arrested and

20 brought in by the military police?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Why?

23 A. I can't really tell you exactly. I can't respond to

24 that exactly.

25 Q. Can you explain to us -- I'll show you a photograph

Page 8961

1 here, with your permission. I just want to ask you

2 whether you can recognise what you see in this

3 photograph. (Handed)

4 A. Yes. This is Dusko Tadic's house in Kozarac.

5 Q. So that is the apartment of Dusko Tadic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On the right-hand side on the wall there is a tapestry.

8 Do you remember that?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Can you describe it to us because we cannot see in the

11 photograph here what it actually depicts?

12 A. That is the portrait of Comrade Tito.

13 Q. The family of Dusko Tadic, was it brought up in that

14 spirit, in the partisan spirit?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. His father, although he was a partisan, did he enjoy a

17 high reputation in Kozarac?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you attend his father's funeral?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you describe that funeral to me in the sense of the

22 number of people who attended and who bathed the father

23 ritually?

24 A. My husband was the one who bathed his father's body and

25 there were very many people. It was a huge funeral. I

Page 8962

1 think I had never seen such a big funeral.

2 Q. Who was present, citizens of what ethnic background?

3 A. Everybody from Kozarac was there. Everybody was there.

4 Q. Do you know the extent to which his cafe was damaged?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. How did it happen?

7 A. I couldn't explain that to you.

8 Q. Was your house damaged?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know how?

11 A. I know. A grenade was shot at it.

12 Q. Who shot?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Finally, what could you say about Dusko, a person who

15 you were friends with? What kind of a person is he?

16 What kind of character?

17 A. He's a very good friend, careful, generous.

18 Q. What about his relationship with his wife?

19 A. He had a wonderful relationship as husband and wife.

20 They were truly in love.

21 Q. Did Dusko love children, especially his own children?

22 A. Yes, Valentina in particular.

23 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. Mr. Niemann?

24 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Excuse me just one moment. (Pause.)

Page 8963

1 Witness, by the agreement of counsel, the Trial

2 Chamber will refer to you as witness BB. We do not want

3 your name to be made a matter of public record, but

4 Mr. Vujin is writing what he considers to be your name on

5 a piece of paper. It will be shown to the Prosecutor,

6 and then it will be shown to you and then you will have

7 to confirm that that is your name. So if you will just

8 wait a few moments, please.

9 A. Yes, that is it.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you very much. You have no

11 additional questions, Mr. Vujin? And you have no

12 questions, Mr. Niemann?

13 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

14 JUDGE McDONALD: Then that is it. Thank you very much for

15 coming. You are free to leave now.

16 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin, your next witness.

17 MR. VUJIN: Valentina Tadic.

18 Valentina Tadic (sworn).

19 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you, Miss Tadic. You may be

20 seated. Mr. Vujin, you may proceed.

21 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, your Honour. Miss Valentina, you are

22 the daughter of Dusko Tadic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I know that it's very difficult for you at this moment,

25 but I kindly ask you and we're not going to question you

Page 8964

1 for long. We just want to put a few questions to you to

2 the extent to which you can answer about your

3 relationship with your father and perhaps a few words

4 about your family. How old are you?

5 A. 17.

6 Q. 17. Do you have vivid memories of your father while you

7 were together?

8 A. Oh, yes, I remember that well.

9 Q. So let us break your stage fright. I want to show you a

10 picture done by your father. Do you recognise yourself?

11 A. Yes, yes, I do.

12 Q. So we submit this to the Chamber as evidence. This will

13 be for you. (Handed) Do you know about the fact that

14 your father painted?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did he do that often? Did he like doing that?

17 A. Yes, he always liked doing that. He always liked to do

18 that.

19 Q. This was by way of introduction and also to break your

20 stage fright. Miss Valentina, can you remember that far

21 back, when you were a young girl, a little girl? Can

22 you tell us about the relationship between your father

23 and your mother?

24 A. The relationship between my mother and father were

25 good. They loved each other. They always agreed on

Page 8965

1 everything.

2 Q. Did they quarrel?

3 A. No, they never quarrelled. Perhaps -- I was an only

4 child and my father paid a lot of attention to me.

5 Q. When was your sister born later?

6 A. Nine years later. For nine years I was an only child.

7 Q. During those years were you the apple of your father's

8 eye?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How did your father express his love for you?

11 A. We would always walk together. He would take me to the

12 cinema. I also trained karate with him, since I was a

13 very young girl.

14 Q. So you trained karate. How many of you trained karate?

15 A. I don't understand your question.

16 Q. Were there a lot of boys and girls who trained karate?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Did you have good friends, boys and girls amongst them?

19 A. Yes, yes. Most of my friends trained karate with me,

20 yes.

21 Q. Who was your best friend?

22 A. Sinita Siviz was my best friend.

23 Q. Sinita Siviz?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was she by ethnic background?

Page 8966

1 A. A Muslim, yes.

2 Q. Where did she live?

3 A. She was my neighbour. She lived nearby.

4 Q. You played together. You were inseparable?

5 A. Yes, we also went to school together, to the same class.

6 Q. Let's go back to your father. Was he strict or was he

7 lenient?

8 A. He was never strict.

9 Q. When you would do something wrong as a child, who was

10 the person who would talk to you, perhaps punish you?

11 It was your father?

12 A. No, no. My mother most occasions, yes.

13 Q. Did your father play with you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What were the situations like and how often was this?

16 A. Yes, often, whenever he would have enough time. He paid

17 a lot of attention to me.

18 Q. Did you also play with boys and girls, your neighbours?

19 A. Yes, yes, with all of them.

20 Q. What were the games involved?

21 A. The games ... we would ride bicycles. We would play

22 different ball games.

23 Q. Who taught you how to ride a bicycle?

24 A. My friends. Together we would ride a bicycle.

25 Q. Did your father teach you how to ride a bicycle?

Page 8967

1 A. No. No. I never saw my father ride a bicycle. I don't

2 think he knows how to ride a bicycle.

3 Q. You think he doesn't know how to ride a bicycle?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How old were you when mummy went to Libya?

6 A. How old? I think I was six.

7 Q. Yes. Do you remember that period? Who took care of

8 you?

9 A. Yes, I remember very well. Daddy and I lived together

10 and he took care of me and mummy went there to earn a

11 living and to make enough money for our future life.

12 Q. Did you know whether mummy and daddy tried to go abroad

13 elsewhere?

14 A. Yes. I remember. They always wanted to go abroad,

15 Australia, Canada.

16 Q. Why didn't they actually do this?

17 A. I'm not sure. The South African Republic, I think.

18 Q. While your father took care of you, while he was with

19 you, were there any problems in terms of preparing the

20 food, your clothing, etc?

21 A. No, no. He would prepare breakfast and lunch and

22 whatever was needed, everything I needed, and we agreed

23 with each other invariably.

24 Q. Do you love your father?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 8968

1 Q. Do you think he loves you?

2 A. Yes, he does.

3 Q. Does he love your mother?

4 A. Uh-huh.

5 Q. Your younger sister?

6 A. He loves her but I think that I'm his pet.

7 Q. Could you say something else about your father, what he

8 was like?

9 A. Well, I could say that --

10 Q. Was he gentle? Was he strict?

11 A. No, he was always gentle towards me. I always had

12 whatever I wished for and my great wish was to have a

13 motorbike, and he said that he would never buy a

14 motorbike for me because it was dangerous.

15 Q. Did he drive a motorbike?

16 A. No, he never did.

17 Q. Did you ever see your father drunk?

18 A. Drunk? No. No. He would never drink.

19 Q. He led the life of a sportsman?

20 A. Yes, he was always the sports type, and he raised me in

21 the same way.

22 Q. In a sports spirit?

23 A. Yes, in a sports spirit.

24 Q. Did he tell you about the values a person should have?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8969

1 Q. What did he tell you? What was the most valuable thing?

2 A. Well, he would always tell me that I should be involved

3 in sports, that I should lead a healthy life.

4 Q. Did he raise you to become a good person?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. To be a sincere person?

7 A. Yes, and to work with others.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann?

10 MR. NIEMANN: I have no questions, your Honour.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: Miss Tadic, thank you very much for

12 coming. You are excused. Thank you.

13 A. Thank you.

14 (Witness withdraws from court)

15 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin, would you call your next

16 witness, please?

17 MR. VUJIN: Your Honour, the next witness would be Mira

18 Tadic, but her questioning would probably take a bit

19 longer. At this point in time the defence is not

20 prepared to start with that, so I kindly request that we

21 continue with that tomorrow and we start questioning her

22 tomorrow, bearing in mind our obligation with the

23 psychologist so that we had to look into.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: Do you have another witness to call

25 instead of Mira Tadic at this time?

Page 8970

1 MR. VUJIN: No. Mr. Petrovic was not brought in.

2 JUDGE McDONALD: The Registry advises that Mr. Petrovic was

3 not there at the hotel. That's why they were not able

4 to bring him over.

5 MR. VUJIN: Yes, I know that. Yes, I am familiar with

6 that. Since it's 5 o'clock, I think --

7 JUDGE McDONALD: We had planned on proceeding until 5.30

8 every day this week, except for Friday, if we have not

9 completed. We will begin at 2.30 and adjourn at 5.00

10 pm. The reason is we have to expeditiously use our time

11 in the courtroom. You can speak with the Registry

12 representative about the report from the psychologist

13 who examined Mr. Tadic and if the report is to be

14 submitted, it would be requested that you provide it to

15 the Trial Chamber this evening, if you can, and if

16 there's nothing else, then we will adjourn until -- yes,

17 Mr. Niemann?

18 MR. NIEMANN: There was that matter I raised earlier, your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE McDONALD: Yes, I'm sorry. In closed session. Let's

21 resolve it now.

22 MR. NIEMANN: I don't think it has to be closed. I think

23 they just turn off the outside --

24 JUDGE McDONALD: That is true. We decided we would do

25 that. We will just turn off the microphones going

Page 8971

1 outside.

2 (In private session)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8972

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13 Page redacted - in private session

14

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Page 8973

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13 Page redacted - in private session

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Page 8974

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 So we will adjourn until tomorrow at 2.30.

9 (5.10 pm)

10 (Hearing adjourned until tomorrow at 2.30 pm)

11 --ooOoo--

12

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