1 Thursday, 2nd September, 1999
2 [Rule 77 Hearing]
3 [Open session]
4 [The appellant entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 10.18 a.m.
6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: This sitting is now
7 resumed. Mr. Registrar?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-94-1-A-R77, the
9 Prosecutor versus Dusko Tadic in a matter regarding
10 allegations with regard to the prior counsel.
11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. This morning we
12 shall be taking evidence by videolink.
13 Am I still in communication with everyone?
14 I was saying that this morning we shall be
15 taking evidence by videolink, coming from Banja Luka.
16 May I take it that the appearances are as before?
17 Then, Mr. Registrar, the next witness.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The next witness is
19 Milos Preradovic. He's now presently in Banja Luka,
20 and we should have a satellite link but apparently from
21 the noise I can hear on the line there are still some
22 problems going on.
23 [Technical difficulty]
24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Are we in
25 communication, Mr. Preradovic?
1 THE WITNESS: -- hear you very well.
2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, will the
3 representative of the Tribunal administer to you the
4 solemn declaration?
5 THE WITNESS: All right. I solemnly declare
6 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and
7 nothing but the truth.
8 THE WITNESS: Milos Preradovic
9 [Witness testimony via videolink]
10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, your name is Milos
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would you tell us your
14 date of birth?
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not
16 hear the answer, I'm sorry.
17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Will you tell us your
18 date of birth?
19 A. The 10th of October, 1948.
20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Preradovic, where
21 were you born?
22 A. In Prujanor or, rather, near Prujanor.
23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Where do you live now?
24 Mr. Preradovic, where do you live now?
25 A. Now I live in Prijedor.
1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: What work do you do?
2 A. Retired.
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: And before your
4 retirement, what work did you do?
5 A. Before I retired I worked in the civilian
6 police force.
7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Now, did you
8 give a statement to the Tribunal on 15th February,
10 A. The 15th of February? I do not recall.
11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Will a representative of
12 the Tribunal show you a statement dated 15 February,
14 THE REGISTRAR: For the transcript, this
15 statement of the 15th of February, 1999 will be marked
16 Exhibit 19. As to the other statement which was lodged
17 with the Registry, this will be Exhibit 18.
18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. I'm not
19 clear whether the witness recalls having given the
20 statement dated 15 February, 1999.
21 You have it now before you, Mr. Preradovic?
22 A. I do. I do. Let me just read it. I've read
23 the statement, but I didn't give it to you; I gave it
24 to Dusko's brother, (redacted), in Prijedor, in the
25 Balkan Hotel.
1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Your correction is
2 accepted. At the top I see the words "At the request
3 of The Hague Tribunal", but you explained that you gave
4 it to a certain person.
5 Now, that is --
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: That is the statement
8 which you gave?
9 A. I did not understand you well.
10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: That is the statement
11 which you gave?
12 A. Yes, that is the statement that I gave.
13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then unless there are
14 any objections, the statement is admitted. No
16 Mr. Registrar, you'll mark it 19; is that
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Absolutely, Your
19 Honour. This will be Exhibit 19.
20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: In that statement --
21 well, let me ask you this: Was this statement correct
22 and true when you gave it?
23 A. The one that I gave in Prijedor, are you
24 referring to that?
25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The statement which you
1 just saw.
2 A. I got a copy of the statement from (redacted)
3 (redacted). That statement --
4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. I'm referring to
5 the statement which is now on the ELMO and which you
6 saw and which you say you gave. Were the contents of
7 the statement true and correct when you gave that
9 A. Yes. Yes. That is correct, yes.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not
11 hear the rest of the answer.
12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Interpreter, can you
13 hear me now?
14 THE INTERPRETER: We can hear the proceedings
15 from the courtroom, but we didn't hear --
16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You did not hear the
18 THE INTERPRETER: -- we did not hear the end
19 of the witness's statement.
20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Witness, did I hear you
21 to say that the contents of that statement were true
22 and correct when you gave the statement?
23 A. The statement I gave to (redacted), yes.
24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, in that statement
25 you refer to another statement which is attached --
1 A. Before that, I signed a statement at the SUP
2 in Prijedor, at the Commander's office, Commander Bozo
4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, let me ask the
5 representative of the Tribunal to show you Exhibit 18.
6 A. I saw it. I saw it.
7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Did you make that
9 A. Well, let me tell you, the statement that
10 (redacted) gave me seemed different to me
11 from this statement, and I did not receive a copy from
12 (redacted) either.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Part of the answer could
14 not be heard by the interpreters. The last bit was
15 "... statement from the SUP."
16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Preradovic, the
17 interpreter did not hear the entirety of your answer.
18 Would you kindly repeat the whole answer for her?
19 A. The first statement that I gave at the SUP
20 was made in several copies.
21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: My question to you is
22 this: Will you kindly look again at Exhibit 18? Would
23 the representative of the Tribunal put it before you,
25 A. Well, I'm looking at it right now.
1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Is that your statement?
2 Did you make that statement?
3 A. I believe that this is the accurate
4 statement, the one I gave at the SUP, but I cannot say
5 100 per cent -- I cannot be 100 per cent sure because I
6 did not get a copy from the SUP.
7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would you look at the
8 very top of that statement and, in particular, at the
9 opening words "On the request of Mr. Milan Vujin ..."
10 Do you see those words?
11 A. I do.
12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Did your statement to
13 the SUP include those words?
14 A. Well, the contents of the statement did
15 include those words, but I'm so sorry that I didn't
16 take a copy of my own in the SUP.
17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Very good,
18 Mr. Preradovic. I would turn the matter over to
19 counsel, who would ask you a few questions. First,
20 some questions will be put to you by Mr. Abell, who is
21 counsel for Mr. Tadic.
22 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, before I actually
23 ask any questions of this witness, in view of what he's
24 just said, I'm going to ask if I can be given the
25 opportunity to obtain another statement that this
1 witness gave, which Mr. Livingston has just told me
2 about. I understand it is with the Court, and I hope
3 that we will be able to lay our hands on it very
4 quickly, but it may be important, given what this
5 witness has just said. I'm sorry for the hiatus.
6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Will this take some
7 time, Mr. Abell?
8 MR. ABELL: I hope it won't --
9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I have two statements to
10 which reference has been made. I don't know if my
11 colleagues have a third. I doubt it. They also are in
12 my position.
13 MR. ABELL: It is a statement that Your
14 Honours may have seen before, I'm told, in connection
15 with an additional evidence application. That's the
16 one that I haven't got but am anxious to see.
17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: It is not before us
18 today, I think.
19 The legal officer explains to me that you're
20 probably referring to a document filed, as you said, in
21 a previous matter. She doesn't have it here, we don't
22 have it here, but if you were to be so good as to give
23 her details of it, she would try to retrieve it as soon
24 as possible.
25 Meanwhile, what do you propose, Mr. Abell?
1 We have a videolink arrangement on --
2 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, I very much
3 appreciate it. It may be that -- I just thought that
4 it may be that my friends can perhaps --
5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Maybe Prosecuting
6 counsel can come to your assistance.
7 MR. KEEGAN: We can, Your Honour. We have
8 the statement.
9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would that help you?
10 MR. ABELL: It would.
11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: All right.
12 MR. ABELL: May I cast my eyes over it
14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Okay. Would you then be
15 in a position to proceed on receipt of that document
16 from Prosecution counsel?
17 MR. ABELL: May I just have five minutes to
18 read it, please?
19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I'm unaccustomed to the
20 workings of the videolink arrangement. I don't know
21 what the Registrar will advise.
22 THE REGISTRAR: There's no problem with
23 regard to the satellite link. We can remain in the
24 courtroom, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: All right.
1 Mr. Preradovic, Mr. Abell, counsel for
2 Mr. Tadic, has requested a few minutes -- I was saying
3 to Mr. Preradovic that Mr. Abell, counsel for
4 Mr. Tadic, has requested a few minutes to look at a
5 certain document, so do bear with us.
6 A. Yes. No problem.
7 MR. ABELL: I'm very grateful for Your
8 Honours' indulgence.
9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Abell is ready.
10 MR. ABELL: Thank you.
11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You have the floor,
12 Mr. Abell.
13 MR. ABELL: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Questioned by Mr. Abell:
15 Q. Mr. Preradovic, have you seen Mr. John
16 Livingston before?
17 A. Dusko Tadic's lawyer, you mean?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes. Is he the one who came to my apartment
20 in Prijedor?
21 Q. Yes. Did he come and see you and take a
22 statement from you on the 27th of December of 1998 in
24 A. Yes, he came and he wanted to take a
25 statement, but please don't ask me for dates. I'm very
1 bad at dates.
2 Q. I'm going to show you on the ELMO the
3 statement, and you can see the date, I hope, and your
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 20.
7 MR. ABELL:
8 Q. On the first page, can you see that it's
9 headed "Statement of Milos Preradovic"?
10 A. Yes. Yes, that's my statement.
11 Q. Does it start by saying: "I, Milos
12 Preradovic, born on the 10th of October, 1948, in
13 Prujanor, want to give a statement in the case of Dusko
15 A. Yes, that's the statement. That's it, and
16 that's the beginning and the content of the statement.
17 Q. It was a detailed statement, wasn't it, went
18 into quite a lot of detail?
19 A. Probably. Well, you have it right in front
20 of you.
21 Q. Yes. Let's just look at the last page of the
22 statement, just to see your signature and the date.
23 A. Could you raise it a bit more, please? To
24 the left, please. To the left.
25 Yes. Yes. That's my signature. I signed
2 Q. You made that statement voluntarily, of your
3 own free will?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. And you signed the bottom of each page of the
6 statement, didn't you, as well as the end?
7 A. Yes. Yes. Right.
8 Q. The statement was read to you before you
9 signed it to make sure that you agreed with the
10 contents of it?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. And the statement that you gave to
13 Mr. Livingston in December of '98 was true and accurate
14 when you made it, wasn't it?
15 A. Although I was in very poor shape and I was
16 receiving an infusion precisely when the lawyer came, I
17 think it's all right, that the statement was accurate,
18 and I signed it.
19 Q. You would not have signed it, I suggest, if
20 you had not been happy that it was accurate and true.
21 A. I probably wouldn't have been happy.
22 Q. If it had been wrong, you wouldn't have
23 signed it?
24 A. Wouldn't have. I wouldn't have.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know somebody called
1 Bogoljub Kos?
2 A. Repeat this, please.
3 Q. Do you know somebody named Bogoljub Kos?
4 A. I do. I do.
5 Q. Does he come from Prijedor as well?
6 A. He's the Commander of the police station in
8 Q. Did you go -- sorry. Did he come to you and
9 ask you to go to the police station at Prijedor to look
10 at a questionnaire?
11 A. Yes. He called me on the phone and asked me
12 to come to the SUP. He wanted me to have a look at
13 something. He said that the lawyer Vujin had left a
14 questionnaire, a statement, whatever. I cannot
15 remember now because I did not receive a single copy.
16 Q. It was, I suggest, a questionnaire.
17 A. A questionnaire or statement. I don't
18 remember because of the four or five copies; I did not
19 receive a single copy myself.
20 Q. Let me see if I can refresh your memory. On
21 the questionnaire, against your name, there was only
22 one question, which was: "Did you or did you not see
23 Mr. Dusko Tadic in Kozarac during the attack on
25 A. Well, I don't remember the statement or
1 questionnaire. I don't remember what it was called.
2 Yes, it did say "Yes" or "No", did I or I did not see
3 Dusko Tadic in Kozarac.
4 Yes, that is what it said in the contents,
5 and it coincides with the statements that I received
6 later on from this lawyer, Vujin. Perhaps there are
7 some --
8 Q. Let me please press on with my question. In
9 answer to that single question on the questionnaire:
10 "Did you or did you not see Dusko Tadic in Kozarac
11 during the attack on it?", you said, "No," and you
12 signed that questionnaire.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And Mr. Kos asked you no further questions,
15 no further details than that?
16 A. The statement was in four or five copies. I
17 don't remember exactly. The questionnaire or
18 statement, whatever it was; I don't know exactly.
19 Q. I think you've told us you have never had a
20 copy of that questionnaire.
21 A. No, I didn't.
22 Q. Mr. Vujin (sic), when did you first -- first
23 of all, when, if you can help me, did you go and see
24 Mr. Kos at the Prijedor police station and answer that
25 question "No"?
1 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
2 Q. Could you give us a date for when you went to
3 see Mr. Kos at Prijedor police station to answer "No"
4 in the questionnaire?
5 A. I don't remember the date.
6 Q. I'm going to suggest to you -- I can't put a
7 precise date to you -- that it might have been before
8 February of 1998.
9 A. I don't remember exactly the exact date. My
10 health situation was such that I forgot it. It was a
11 mistake of me not to take a copy.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Preradovic, did you see -- well, you
13 tell us. When was the first time you ever met
14 Mr. Milan Vujin?
15 A. The first time I met him -- I met him the
16 first time when he brought me this statement. I think
17 it was number 18. It was after the statement that I
18 had signed to (redacted) -- for (redacted),
20 Q. So you first met Mr. Vujin after the
21 statement that is our Exhibit 19.
22 MR. ABELL: Could he please be shown that?
23 He has one with him.
24 A. This is the statement that I gave Vujin when
25 I saw him.
1 Q. Which is? Let me see if I can help you, Mr.
2 Preradovic. You first saw Mr. Vujin -- you're showing
3 us, I think, the statement you made on the 15th of
4 February of 1999. That's the statement you gave to
5 (redacted), isn't it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you first met Mr. Vujin after you gave
8 (redacted) that statement on the 15th of February,
10 A. Yes, yes. Yes, yes.
11 Q. What did Mr. Vujin show you when he met you?
12 A. He showed me this statement, the one that I'm
13 showing you now, the one you're looking at now.
14 Q. He showed you (redacted) statement, did
15 he, the statement, that is, that you gave to (redacted)
17 A. We lost the first part of that sentence.
18 Q. Let me start --
19 A. The statement that Vujin, the lawyer, showed
20 me later on and the one I gave in the SUP are
21 practically the same in content. It only differs in
22 the "Yes" or "No". I can't remember that. Perhaps I
23 didn't get the first statement.
24 Q. The statement that Mr. Vujin showed you when
25 he saw you after the 15th of February of 1999, was the
1 statement he showed you the statement that you had
2 given to (redacted) on the 15th of February, 1999?
3 A. I think that those statements are similar,
4 with the exception of the fact that I thought when
5 (redacted) showed me, whether it was because of the
6 photocopy or anything else, they weren't exactly the
7 same. So --
8 Q. Did Mr. Vujin show you what is our Exhibit 18
9 when he came to see you? That is the statement --
10 MR. ABELL: Could you have it up, please, on
11 the screen?
12 Q. Is that the statement that Mr. Vujin showed
14 A. Yes, it is. Can you put it up a bit? Yes,
15 that's that statement that Vujin showed me.
16 Q. Could you tell us where this meeting was with
17 Mr. Vujin?
18 A. With Mr. Vujin and another man who he came
19 with from Prijedor. It was in front of my building;
20 that is to say, the entrance next door to my building,
21 in a cafe.
22 Q. Was the other man with him Mr. Saponja?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. The father of Dragomir Saponja?
25 A. Could you repeat that, please?
1 Q. The father of Dragomir Saponja?
2 A. I don't know what his son's name is. All I
3 know is that he does have a son. I think he was
4 Dragomir, but he played handball. I don't know his
5 name exactly. He was a youngster.
6 Q. The man with Mr. Vujin was an older man,
7 Mr. Saponja, the father of another Saponja.
8 A. Yes. There was Slavko Saponja. I know him
9 very well, but I don't know his son so well.
10 Q. Can you give us a date for that meeting, when
11 Mr. Vujin and Mr. Saponja came to see you in Prijedor?
12 A. I can't remember. I can't remember.
13 Q. Let me see if I can help you. Would it have
14 been about a month after you gave the statement to
15 (redacted); in other words, in mid-March of 1999?
16 A. It was several days after I gave the
17 statement to (redacted).
18 Q. I suggest a month later, just about a month
19 later. Does that sound about right, Mr. Preradovic?
20 A. I can't quite remember, but it was a few days
21 before I went. I think it was when I came to these
22 same premises with (redacted).
23 Q. This may help you: Not long before the
24 bombing began in 1999?
25 THE INTERPRETER: We've lost him, I'm
2 MR. ABELL:
3 Q. Not long --
4 A. I was to come with (redacted) here to see
5 (redacted). Well, a little before the bombing, yes.
6 Sometime before the bombing.
7 Q. Now, were you going with (redacted) to pick up a
8 witness summons to come to this court?
9 A. I was informed -- I think it was during those
10 couple of days, because that's when the lawyer Vujin
11 came. Maybe it was on that same day, that very day.
12 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Vujin, what was he
13 saying to you when he came to visit you with
14 Mr. Saponja?
15 A. He gave me this statement and asked me if it
16 corresponded to the statement that I made to Bozo Kos.
17 I think it is similar to the other statement, but the
18 contents weren't that familiar to me because I haven't
19 got the first statement.
20 Q. Is this right: That the statement that
21 you've seen in front of you today that says "On the
22 request of Milan Vujin ...", Exhibit 18, is not the
23 same piece of paper that you signed when you went into
24 Prijedor police station and spoke with Mr. Kos?
25 A. The contents of the statement are the same,
1 almost the same, more or less the same. I'm not quite
2 so sure, because I wasn't given a copy from the SUP in
3 Prijedor, but the contents are more or less the same.
4 Q. My question was that the statement that you
5 have in front of you, it's not the same piece of paper
6 as the document you signed at Prijedor police station.
7 Whether it's similar or not doesn't matter. It's not
8 the same actual statement, is it?
9 A. I think this statement has the same contents,
10 everything is the same. I can't exactly remember, but
11 I think that with Bozo there was something that said
12 "Yes" or "No," and this same time hasn't got that
13 "Yes" or "No." That's the only difference.
14 Q. If there's a difference between this
15 statement and what you gave to Mr. Kos, it must be a
16 different statement, it must be a different piece of
18 A. The paper's the same. It's the same format,
19 everything is the same, and the contents of the
20 statement, generally, it boils down to the fact of
21 whether I saw Dusko Tadic. But I wrote to Vujin that
22 the contents of the statement -- I noticed when Vujin
23 left that in the statement, there isn't the "Yes" or
24 "No" which did exist, I think, in the first
1 Q. So there is a difference between what you
2 have been shown today, the piece of paper you've been
3 shown today, and what you signed with Mr. Kos at
4 Prijedor police station?
5 A. Well, more or less, the statement is the
6 same. The only thing is that "Yes" or "No," that
7 worries me a little, just that.
8 Q. That worries you because you remember saying
9 that to Mr. Kos and it's not in the statement that
10 you've had put in front of you today.
11 A. Well, nonetheless, I made a mistake not to
12 take a copy from Bozo Kos, and that is why now I am
13 answering in this way.
14 Q. You rang up, didn't you, Mrs. Bogdanka
15 Livingston -- I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Let me change
16 that. You rang up, didn't you, (redacted) on the
17 same day or the day after Mr. Vujin had come to visit
18 you, in March of this year, to tell him about that
20 A. Could you repeat that, please?
21 Q. Yes. You spoke with (redacted), didn't you,
22 in March of this year, on the same day that Mr. Vujin
23 and Mr. Saponja came to visit you?
24 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we couldn't hear
25 the answer.
1 MR. ABELL:
2 Q. Let me ask the question again. You spoke to
3 (redacted), didn't you, on the same day in March
4 of this year when Mr. Vujin and Mr. Saponja came to
5 visit you in Prijedor?
6 A. I think that that's how it was, yes.
7 Q. You told (redacted) that Mr. Vujin had
8 shown you that statement, Exhibit 18, and was trying to
9 convince you that it didn't really matter that it
10 wasn't the same piece of paper because it was similar
11 to what you had written to Mr. Kos.
12 A. I'm sorry. Could you say that again?
13 Q. You told (redacted) about Mr. Vujin's
14 visit to you at Prijedor with Mr. Saponja, didn't you?
15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: There's a problem,
16 Mr. Registrar?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Obviously, the witness
18 couldn't hear or did not hear the question.
19 MR. ABELL: Let me put it again.
20 Q. You told (redacted) about Mr. Vujin and
21 Mr. Saponja's visit to you in Prijedor, didn't you?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. You told (redacted) on the same day that
24 Mr. Vujin and Mr. Saponja came to visit you.
25 A. Yes, I did. I did tell him, because I came
1 to Banja Luka with him.
2 Q. You told (redacted) that Mr. Vujin had tried
3 to convince you or persuade you that the statement that
4 you now have in front of you, Exhibit 18, was similar
5 to what you had signed at Prijedor police station with
6 Mr. Kos.
7 A. I told (redacted) that Vujin and Saponja
8 came to see me and that they gave me a statement ...
9 and he said Kos and that I signed for Vujin that that
10 could have been that statement. However, when they
11 left and when I talked to (redacted), in this statement, I
12 did not find a portion where it said "Yes" or "No,"
13 whereas the contents of the statement were more or less
14 the same that I gave to Bozo Kos.
15 Q. So when you looked at the statement with
16 (redacted), you realised there was a difference,
17 although they may have been broadly similar, that there
18 was a difference.
19 A. The statements, both (redacted) statement and
20 the one that I gave to Vujin and the one with Bozo Kos,
21 as I say, the contents are almost the same; however,
22 when I add all this up together, I feel -- I seem to
23 feel that in Bozo Kos's statement, it said, "Did you
24 see --"
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.
1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Preradovic, the
2 interpreter did not have the entirety of your last
3 answer. Could you repeat it for her, please?
4 A. All three statements -- the last statement I
5 gave to Vujin, they are almost the same in content,
6 except for the fact that (redacted) statement that I
7 signed there, it wasn't very legible, and that is why I
8 said that it didn't correspond exactly. Whether it was
9 the photocopy's fault or anything else, I don't know,
10 but they're all more or less of the same content.
11 MR. ABELL:
12 Q. We got cut off from you, Mr. Preradovic, in
13 the middle of an answer you were giving, and I'm going
14 to read it back to you because I want you to complete
15 the sentence, if you can. Let me do my best to read it
16 to you.
17 "The statements, both (redacted) statement and
18 the one that I gave to Vujin and the one with Bozo Kos,
19 as I say, the contents are almost the same; however,
20 when I add all this up together, I feel -- I seem to
21 feel that in Bozo Kos's statement, I said, 'Did you
22 see --'"
23 Please finish that sentence off.
24 A. Yes. Yes, I can.
25 Q. What was the difference you could remember?
1 A. I think that in the statement which is with
2 Bozo Kos, there was a word "Yes" or "No," whether I had
3 seen Tadic or not, and I answered --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.
5 MR. ABELL:
6 Q. Can you hear me again?
7 A. Yes, I can hear you.
8 Q. Again, unfortunately, there was an
9 interruption. Let me read your answer back. I asked
10 you what was the difference that you could remember
11 between what you said between Mr. Kos and Exhibit 18,
12 and you said: "I think that in the statement which is
13 with Bozo Kos, there was a word 'Yes' or 'No,' whether
14 I had seen Tadic or not, and I answered --"
15 Go on. Complete it. What did you answer to
16 Mr. Kos?
17 A. Hello? Hello? I think that it said "Yes" or
18 "No," and all the rest coincides with the last
19 statement given to me by Vujin.
20 Q. You spoke on the 16th of March on the
21 telephone, didn't you, with (redacted),
22 the 16th of March of this year?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You told her as well about the fact that
25 Mr. --
1 A. I don't remember --
2 Q. Just listen to the question. When you spoke
3 with her on the phone, you told her as well, didn't
4 you, that Mr. Vujin and Mr. Saponja had come to visit
5 you in Prijedor?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you told her that they had tried to
8 convince you that the statement, our Exhibit 18, was
9 similar to what you had written to Mr. Kos, what you
10 had answered to Mr. Kos at Prijedor.
11 A. I told the lady that the contents of the
12 statement given to me by the lawyer Vujin in the
13 presence of Saponja, that it was the same contents as
14 the Bozo Kos statement, except for that "Yes" or "No,"
15 but I can't remember anything now because I didn't get
16 the first statement.
17 Q. Let me suggest, and I put to you, that what
18 you told (redacted) was that when you saw Kos
19 at Prijedor police station, there was only one question
20 on the questionnaire, and all you had to do was say
21 "Yes" or "No" and that was it.
22 A. At the top, the title, the heading of the
23 statement, my own data about myself, Tadic's data --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.
25 A. -- only that "Yes" or "No." I can't quite
1 say because I did not get a single copy from Bozo Kos.
2 MR. ABELL:
3 Q. You told her, I suggest, that the two
4 documents were different.
5 A. Could you repeat, please? What two
7 Q. You told (redacted),
8 (redacted), that the statement, our Exhibit 18, the one
9 you have in front of you, and the questionnaire you'd
10 answered for Kos, were different.
11 A. Well, I don't remember exactly that I put it
12 that way, but I think that I said that I felt that just
13 because of that "Yes" or "No", because of that. Just
14 because of that "Yes" or "No", that there might have
15 been a mistake there.
16 Q. Now look, please, and you may need to look on
17 the ELMO, at the statement you gave to Mr. Livingston
18 in Prijedor on the 27th of December of '98.
19 A. I know. I've looked at that statement and
20 I've read it.
21 Q. I'm looking --
22 MR. ABELL: If it helps Your Honours -- I
23 think Your Honours now have copies -- I'm looking at
24 the second last page of the typed copy.
25 I'm going to take it from: "The reason that
1 I never gave my statement before..."
2 Q. Can you see it there, Mr. Preradovic?
3 A. Yes, I can see it. Yes.
4 Q. I'm going to read it in English and you can
5 hopefully follow it through as I read it:
6 "The reason I never gave my statement before
7 about those things is that I was absent due to my
8 obligations on the front line during '95 and '96. I am
9 sure if someone had tried to find me at that time, it
10 would have been very difficult because of the war. I
11 never met any of the lawyers of Dusko Tadic."
12 In fact, pausing, the first lawyer of
13 Mr. Dusko Tadic you actually met was (redacted),
14 wasn't it, on the 27th of December of 1998, when you
15 made this statement?
16 A. Yes. I made a statement on the 27th.
17 Q. And (redacted) was the first lawyer for
18 Dusko Tadic that you had ever met, and you met him on
19 that day?
20 A. Yes, the first lawyer of Dusko Tadic whom
21 I --
22 Q. And that obviously includes Mr. Milan Vujin,
23 doesn't it?
24 A. Milan Vujin. I met him after I had met this
25 other one, the first lawyer.
1 Q. After you had met Mr. Livingston?
2 A. Yes. Yes, after I met him.
3 Q. Thank you. I read on from the statement:
4 "I never met any of the lawyers of Dusko
5 Tadic. It is true that I received one telephone call
6 from Mr. Vujin. It was a very short conversation. He
7 only asked me if we could meet in connection with
8 Dusko's case and nothing more."
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. "Sometime after that, Commander Bogoljub
11 Kos, from the station in Prijedor, called me in to the
12 station because Mr. Vujin had left a questionnaire
13 there in connection with Dusko Tadic, and if I agreed
14 with the questions I should sign it.
15 "There were four or five copies of the same
16 questionnaire. Above my name there was only one
17 question: Did I or did I not see Dusko Tadic in
18 Kozarac during the attack on it? I answered "No," and
19 signed it. Nobody ever asked me what happened in
20 Kozarac on May 27th, 1992 or about the things I have
21 just stated about before."
22 That's what you said to Mr. Livingston, isn't
23 it, in your statement?
24 A. Yes, that's true, except for up there, the
25 heading. The heading. Everything else coincides.
1 This "Yes"/"No", that was, I think, in front of my
2 name, where I was supposed to sign my name, I think,
3 but I haven't got a copy so I can't guarantee anything.
4 Q. Last question before we take a break. My
5 question was that what I just read out to you and what
6 you've seen on the screen, that is what you told
7 Mr. Livingston in your statement in December of last
8 year, isn't it?
9 A. I don't see any difference, and everything
10 else -- what I said a moment ago. And this "Yes"/"No",
11 I think it was in front of my signature, but I can't
12 guarantee because I haven't got the copy. I haven't
13 received a copy. But the contents of the statement is
14 the same and it's just the heading, just the title. It
15 says my name and Tadic's.
16 MR. ABELL: Your Honours, would that be a
17 convenient moment? I have a few more questions after
18 the break, if I may.
19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Registrar, what will
20 happen with the technical arrangements?
21 THE REGISTRAR: There is no problem
22 whatsoever, Your Honour, and I do think that it is a
23 good thing to have a break for the good health of the
25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Then,
1 Mr. Preradovic, we will suspend the sitting for about
2 30 minutes.
3 --- Recess taken at 11.35 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.06 p.m.
5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The sitting is resumed.
6 Are we in communication with Mr. Preradovic?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Word has come that
9 Mr. Preradovic has a medical appointment at 2 p.m. this
10 afternoon. So it would be good if counsel, without
11 doing any offence to his case, could expedite matters
12 so that we finish with this witness in good time. I
13 have in mind 1 p.m..
14 MR. ABELL: I have nearly finished.
15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Very good.
16 MR. ABELL:
17 Q. I'm still asking you questions,
18 Mr. Preradovic. When you saw Mr. Kos at Prijedor
19 police station, the only question you were asked about
20 Mr. Tadic was whether you had seen him or not at the
22 A. Whether I had seen him? Where? In which
24 Q. On the questionnaire, Mr. Preradovic.
25 Kozarac, the Kozarac village, the town.
1 A. I saw Dusko Tadic only twice during the war
2 and both times in Prijedor.
3 Q. Yes. What I'm asking you about is when you
4 saw Mr. Kos, the only question you were asked about
5 Mr. Tadic, Dusko Tadic, was whether or not you had seen
6 him, "Yes" or "No", in Kozarac?
7 A. No. No.
8 Q. You weren't asked, I suggest, any details
9 about any other names.
10 A. No. I -- hello? Can you hear me? I made a
11 mistake. I didn't take this copy. I'm telling you
12 that in all honesty.
13 Q. The questionnaire, you signed it, didn't you,
14 the questionnaire, at Prijedor police station?
15 A. I'm so sorry that I didn't take a single
16 copy. Everything would be much clearer now. I don't
17 know why they didn't give me this copy.
18 Q. The question was very simple. Did you sign
19 the questionnaire at Prijedor police station?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What we have at Exhibit 18 is not a copy of
22 what you signed at Prijedor police station.
23 A. For the time being, I cannot remember that.
24 However, the content is the same. There was a major
25 difference in terms of years, but that's the content,
1 except for this "Yes"/"No" thing, and that is what
2 worries me now. I can't remember.
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Abell, the witness
4 has testified that the document which he signed at the
5 police station had a "Yes"/"No" legend, and he
6 recognises that that legend is not included in 18.
7 Could you not leave it to the Tribunal to draw an
8 inference as to whether the one document was the same
9 as the other?
10 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, indeed.
11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes.
12 MR. ABELL: I'm grateful.
13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes.
14 MR. ABELL:
15 Q. Let me deal with this, please: You made that
16 statement on the 15th of February of '99 to (redacted)
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you made that statement to (redacted),
20 didn't you, of your own free will?
21 A. Own free will.
22 Q. Would you have it in front of you, please,
23 Exhibit 19?
24 A. Yes. Yes. I have it in front of me.
25 Q. When you made that statement to (redacted),
1 you were doing your best, weren't you, to tell (redacted)
2 (redacted) the truth?
3 A. Yes. That's right.
4 Q. Well, look at that statement.
5 A. I'm looking at it, and I've already read it.
6 Q. You've read it. You make it clear in that
7 statement, don't you --
8 A. No.
9 Q. You make it clear in the statement, I
10 suggest, to (redacted), that our statement, Exhibit
11 18, is a clear fraud, a clear forgery.
12 A. I don't know whether there was a mistake in
13 the photocopy or in something, I don't know what, but
14 it seemed to me that it was not similar to this
15 statement. However, now --
16 THE INTERPRETER: There's been an
18 A. -- a mistake.
19 MR. ABELL:
20 Q. Of course, what happened between your making
21 that statement to (redacted) in February of '99 and
22 today, is your visit -- is the visit by Mr. Vujin and
23 Mr. Saponja to your home in Prijedor.
24 A. Before. Before.
25 Q. No, that's wrong. I'm not going to go back
1 over the evidence. We have already dealt with the
3 Let me put this to you: You remember I was
4 asking you about what you told (redacted) when
5 you spoke with her? You told her, didn't you, that
6 whilst you would be prepared to give evidence of the
7 truth in relation to Mr. Tadic, you did not want to get
8 involved in saying anything that might hurt Mr. Vujin,
9 the lawyer?
10 A. Can you hear me?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. I have already repeated what I had said. I
13 said twice already that there were three statements, at
14 Bozo Kos's, and at (redacted), and after that what
15 Vujin brought. They approximately have the same
16 content, except I haven't got the (redacted) statement or
17 the SUP statement here with me, Bozo Kos's either.
18 Q. My question was a very simple one. You told
19 (redacted), on the phone, that whilst you were
20 prepared to come to this court and tell the truth about
21 Mr. Tadic, you were not prepared to get involved in
22 giving evidence which might hurt the lawyer, Milan
24 A. No. I didn't understand this lady.
25 Q. You told her -- you told her as well, didn't
1 you, that you had enough problems with your health
2 without an extra problem of getting involved in giving
3 evidence that might hurt Mr. Vujin?
4 A. I don't know what you are referring to in
5 terms of harming Mr. Vujin. I have my own health
6 problems. What I'm doing now, testifying, is very hard
7 for me.
8 MR. ABELL: Thank you. That's all I ask.
9 A. Because I have to stand by everything I say.
10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Abell, you referred
11 to a statement made by the witness, dated 27 December,
12 1998, and I believe it was admitted as an exhibit.
13 Is that right, Mr. Registrar?
14 MR. ABELL: I would ask it to be if it hasn't
15 actually been given the exhibit number yet.
16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. You would wish it
17 to be given an exhibit number.
18 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, yes.
19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: And may I suggest,
20 having regard to the character of this statement, that
21 it be put under seal.
22 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, yes.
23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Then,
24 Mr. Prosecutor --
25 I better explain to Mr. Preradovic that now
1 some questions will be put to you by Mr. Keegan for the
3 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Questioned by Mr. Keegan:
5 Q. Mr. Preradovic, I'd like to go back to when
6 you were called to the police station in Prijedor to
7 look at this questionnaire. Prior to the time that you
8 were called by Bogoljub Kos to come to the station,
9 were you ever called by Mr. Vujin? Did you ever speak
10 with Mr. Vujin on the phone prior to going to the
11 Prijedor police station?
12 A. I did talk, but I do not remember when this
13 happened. I told Mr. Vujin that I was not capable of
14 testifying --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.
16 A. -- testifying. So that's why I did not meet
17 with him.
18 Q. Can you recall whether, when you had this
19 conversation with Mr. Vujin, it was before you went to
20 the Prijedor police station and signed the
21 questionnaire, or after?
22 A. I talked before I went to the police station,
23 and later this questionnaire, statement, whatever, came
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.
1 MR. KEEGAN:
2 Q. Can you remember what Mr. Vujin asked you
3 about on the telephone?
4 A. He asked me whether I could testify about
5 Dusko Tadic, because there were quite a few witnesses
6 who were willing to testify. I said to him that I saw
7 Dusko Tadic only twice during the war --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.
9 MR. KEEGAN:
10 Q. Mr. Preradovic, we lost the last part of your
11 answer, the part that came after you told Mr. Vujin
12 that you saw Dusko Tadic only twice during the war, and
13 we lost what came after that.
14 A. Dusko Tadic, I saw him only twice in
15 Prijedor. Where I live --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.
17 A. -- that's why I could not make any statement
18 to Mr. Vujin.
19 MR. KEEGAN:
20 Q. Did Mr. Vujin ask you to go to the police
21 station to sign the questionnaire or statement?
22 A. I cannot remember that he asked me to do so.
23 He gave Bogoljub Kos that questionnaire so that
24 Bogoljub Kos could call me in to sign this. I didn't
25 even know what it was about.
1 Q. Was it Bogoljub Kos who told you that
2 Mr. Vujin had given him the questionnaire?
3 A. I can't remember exactly, but I think that it
4 remained with him. This is quite a long period, so I
5 cannot remember everything.
6 Q. Mr. Preradovic, you stated earlier that there
7 were four or five copies of this questionnaire that you
8 saw at the Prijedor police station. Do you recall
9 whether all of the copies were the same; that is, were
10 they the exact same document?
11 A. Yes. Yes, the same content. All of it is
12 the same. I signed all of them, but unfortunately I
13 did not take any copies for myself, and that is,
14 unfortunately, why this happened.
15 Q. Is it your testimony, then, that you looked
16 at and read all four or five copies, however many there
17 were, before you signed them?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. To the best of your recollection, did all of
20 the copies contain that reference to the question with
21 the "Yes" or "No" answer block in it?
22 A. As far as I can remember, yes, because --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.
24 MR. KEEGAN:
25 Q. Mr. Preradovic, we lost your last answer.
1 Could you repeat it, please?
2 A. On all these questionnaires, or statements, I
3 mean, the content was the same, and above my signature
4 there was this "Yes"/"No" thing. I cannot guarantee it
5 because I haven't got a copy with me.
6 Q. Do you have a copy of what is marked as
7 Exhibit 18 in front of you that's in the Serbian
8 language; that is, the copy with your signature on it?
9 A. Yes, I've got it.
10 Q. Can you please confirm for the Court, is that
11 your signature that appears on that document below your
12 name or not?
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. When, to the best of your recollection, did
15 you sign this document?
16 A. I didn't understand you.
17 Q. When is it that you signed this document,
18 Exhibit 18?
19 A. I signed it when Slavko Saponja came with the
20 lawyer to Prijedor, the beginning of 1998. I can't
21 remember the date. It was mentioned at the beginning
22 of the statement.
23 Q. I'd like to refer to the meeting with (redacted)
24 (redacted). Is it your testimony that you
25 are not sure whether the statement which (redacted)
1 showed you was either the same statement you signed in
2 the Prijedor police station or the same as the
3 statement which you signed for Mr. Vujin?
4 A. I think that almost all of the statements are
5 identical, almost. Only in the case of the (redacted)
6 (redacted) statement, which I did not get, just like I
7 didn't get the one in the SUP, I don't know whether it
8 was a question of having it retyped or something, but
9 all the statements boil down to the same thought, all
10 three statements.
11 Q. Did (redacted) tell you where he obtained
12 or where he got the copy of the statement which he
13 showed to you on that day?
14 A. I cannot remember that case.
15 Q. You cannot remember if he told you?
16 A. I cannot. Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot
17 remember. I'm not feeling too good.
18 Q. I will try to be brief, Mr. Preradovic. In
19 this statement which you gave to (redacted) which
20 we have before us, that statement --
21 A. I've got it too.
22 Q. Fine. If you could look at that statement as
23 I ask you the following questions: In that statement,
24 it says that the statement that you're being shown by
25 (redacted) is not consistent with the statement
1 which you signed in Prijedor police station and in the
2 presence of the chief of police, Bozidar Kos,
3 presumably Bogoljub Kos. What did you mean by it's not
4 consistent with the statement that you signed in the
5 police station?
6 A. I think that perhaps there was a mistake in
7 the copying of the statement --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.
9 A. -- perhaps this condition of mine affected
10 me too. However, all three statements are similar, and
11 what I wrote for Tadic, I believe that perhaps in terms
12 of the copy or the format or whatever, you know, in
13 that sense, that's how I wrote it.
14 MR. KEEGAN:
15 Q. The penultimate sentence in that statement
16 you gave to (redacted) is quite declarative. It
17 says: "I am confirming that this statement," meaning
18 the one shown to you by (redacted), "is a clear
19 fraud and that I never gave such a statement." Did
20 you, in fact, say that to (redacted)?
21 A. Let me tell you, perhaps it's a mistake in
22 the copying of the statement that I had with me --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.
24 A. -- "Yes" or "No," perhaps in connection with
25 this "Yes" or "No." I can't remember whether it was
1 there, so that's why I stated that.
2 MR. KEEGAN:
3 Q. Mr. Preradovic, when Mr. Vujin came to see
4 you and he showed you Exhibit 18 and you signed that
5 document, did you tell Mr. Vujin that the statement he
6 was showing you was different from the one that you
7 signed in the police station?
8 A. I told Mr. Vujin in writing, and I signed
9 this, that the statements were identical
10 approximately. That's what I think. However, I forgot
11 to mention to Vujin as well that it seemed to me
12 that --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.
14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Vujin, please?
15 MR. VUJIN: Thank you. I apologise to my
16 learned friend, Mr. Keegan. I don't want to make any
17 suggestions, but I think that a small error has
18 occurred with regard to Mr. Keegan's question related
19 to Exhibit 18 today. Because in response to
20 Mr. Keegan's question, it was said that Mr. Preradovic
21 signed this document when I visited him in March this
22 year. So could you please clear up this matter?
23 I presented this document as a document that
24 was signed in the police station, at Kos's, and when I
25 showed this document to Preradovic, it had already been
1 signed by him, and Mr. Preradovic is talking about
2 another document that you don't know about yet;
3 however, during our examination, you're going to find
4 out. So could you please clarify this matter so that
5 there wouldn't be any confusion? Thank you.
6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Vujin, in addition
7 to an opportunity to examine the witness, you will have
8 an opportunity to present your own evidence on the
10 MR. VUJIN: Thank you.
11 MR. KEEGAN:
12 Q. Mr. Preradovic, let me first then return back
13 to Exhibit 18, and again I'd like you to look at the
14 copy you have before you, which is in your own language
15 and is signed by you. Once again, when is it that you
16 signed that document?
17 A. I can see it, yes.
18 Q. Can you please tell the Court when you signed
19 that document, the approximate date?
20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Keegan, what
21 document are you referring to?
22 MR. KEEGAN: Exhibit 18, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I have information,
24 Mr. Keegan, that the date at the top of the document
25 was inserted by an officer of the Tribunal --
1 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: -- and the document was
3 likely to be signed before that date.
4 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, but there is
5 no date on the actual Serbian version, and I'm trying
6 to see if the witness can tell us when he recalls
7 signing the document.
8 Q. Mr. Preradovic, do you recall my question and
9 can you answer it, please?
10 MR. KEEGAN: It appears we may have lost the
11 signal, Your Honour.
12 [Technical difficulty]
13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: This has happened
14 before. I do not surrender all hope.
15 What do you say, Mr. Registrar?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. I think that ideally we
17 should just be patient.
18 MR. KEEGAN:
19 Q. Mr. Preradovic, referring to --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- Exhibit 18, can you confirm for the Court
22 whether or not you signed this document in 1998?
23 A. Are you referring to the document --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.
25 MR. KEEGAN:
1 Q. I'm referring to the document marked Exhibit
2 18, which is the document that begins "On the request
3 of Mr. Milan Vujin, defence counsel of Dusko Tadic, I
4 give the following statement ..."
5 A. That statement? That statement was signed
6 by -- it was signed this year, it seems to me, when
7 Saponja came to see me in Prijedor.
8 Q. Mr. Preradovic, there are only three exhibits
9 that have been introduced this morning: Exhibits 18,
10 19, and 20. Exhibit 18 is the document we have been
11 referring to just now in my questions, Exhibit 19 is
12 the statement which you gave to (redacted), and
13 Exhibit 20 is the statement which you gave to
14 Mr. Livingston. We have reason to believe that Exhibit
15 18 was signed sometime prior to 5 February, 1998. Do
16 you have any recollection of signing such a document
17 prior to 5 February, 1998?
18 A. The evidence -- material evidence and the
19 statement by Mr. Vujin is this last one that I have in
20 front of me, and not the one from the SUP, which was
21 signed this year, but I don't remember exactly when.
22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I should explain that to
23 prevent the parties from being misled, I made the
24 statement which I did make about the insertion by an
25 officer of the Tribunal of that date. If the parties
1 are disagreed about that, then evidence could be led on
2 the point.
3 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't
4 have anything further, Your Honour. Thank you.
5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Abell?
6 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, just before there's
7 any further cross-examination, it may be sensible to
8 elicit in some way, shape, or form that the document
9 that the witness in Banja Luka has in front of him,
10 Exhibit 18, must be a photocopy and that he's not
11 looking at any original. I assume that to be the
12 case. It may be important.
13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The Tribunal gives you
14 leave to ask one question on that point.
15 MR. ABELL: Thank you.
16 Further questions by Mr. Abell:
17 Q. Mr. Preradovic, you've been asked some
18 questions about Exhibit 18. That's the statement which
19 begins "On the request of Mr. Milan Vujin ..." Do you
20 have that?
21 A. "At the request of the lawyer, the defence
22 counsel for Mr. Dusko Tadic," that is the statement I
23 have before me.
24 Q. No, no, no. On the request of Mr. Milan
25 Vujin, Exhibit 18.
1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, Mr. Domazet.
2 MR. DOMAZET: Your Honours, in the Serbian
3 language, this statement reads as it was read out by
4 the witness, Mr. Preradovic. Perhaps the translation
5 is a little different and that is why this has come
7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I thought as much,
8 Mr. Domazet.
9 Mr. Abell, I believe that the problem is that
10 we're dealing with different languages, but the
11 substance is the same.
12 MR. ABELL: I'm very grateful.
13 Q. You and I are looking at the same exhibit.
14 Do you still have it in front of you, Mr. Preradovic?
15 A. Yes, I have it. I do.
16 Q. That document that you have in front of you,
17 it is a photocopy, isn't it? It is not the original
18 document, is it?
19 A. Well, I don't know exactly.
20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Has it got your
21 signature on it, Mr. Preradovic?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Is that the original
24 signature or a copy of your signature?
25 A. My signature, the one I signed, but it's
1 probably a copy, but it is my signature.
2 MR. ABELL: That's all I wanted to
4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then Mr. Domazet?
5 MR. DOMAZET: Your Honours --
6 MR. VUJIN: I have several questions to ask
7 before Mr. Domazet.
8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You must elect whether
9 the questions will be put by you or Mr. Domazet. Which
10 will it be? You will put all the questions or will
11 Mr. Domazet put the questions?
12 MR. VUJIN: In this case, when it is a
13 question of this witness, I am going to ask the
14 questions because I have been given leave to head my
15 own defence.
16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: All that the Chamber
17 wanted to know is whether you would be asking the
18 questions or Mr. Domazet. Fine. Go ahead.
19 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, Your Honours. If you
20 wish, I can show you the original of the statement that
21 has been designated with the number 18, if anything is
22 being contested. If it isn't, then we can continue
23 immediately. So that you can compare it to the copy
24 which Mr. Preradovic himself has.
25 MR. ABELL: Your Honours, I don't want
1 Mr. Vujin to be under any misapprehension at all. On
2 behalf of Mr. Tadic, the authenticity of the document,
3 Exhibit 18, is very much in issue. In our submission,
4 it is a forgery.
5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Vujin is doing the
6 correct thing in making the original available to the
8 MR. ABELL: In case there is any question
9 about it. There is --
10 MR. VUJIN: Could I offer the Court another
11 statement by Mr. Preradovic?
12 THE REGISTRAR: If you so wish, Your Honour,
13 it might be good to give an exhibit number for the
14 original. The original would be 18C.
15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Very good. I take it
16 that the Registrar would make photocopies available to
17 the parties?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, but you
19 know that the copy of it has already been given to the
20 parties because this is Exhibit 18, and I can only show
21 you the original, because otherwise, if I make
22 photocopies, they will become copies.
23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: No. There is a question
24 as to whether those copies are the same as this
25 original. So would you kindly make copies of this
1 exhibit available to the parties?
2 MR. VUJIN: Your Honours, I have a copy of
3 that document, sufficient examples.
4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Perhaps, Mr. Vujin, on
5 this occasion we could relieve you of that
6 responsibility and ask the Registrar to make copies.
8 MR. VUJIN: Thank you.
9 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if I might. The
10 question is: Do those copies have original signatures
11 or are they photocopies of the signatures as well? In
12 other words, did he sign more than one copy, is what
13 I'm asking.
14 MR. VUJIN: No, he signed the original copy
15 of the original. The copy of the original has the
17 I would now like to offer, before I ask the
18 questions, because there has been -- I think the
19 mistake there is I have the original of the statement
20 by Mr. Preradovic, dated the 15th of March, 1999.
21 MR. ABELL: I mean no disrespect to
22 interrupt, but I must express considerable concern
23 about what is now taking place.
24 Mr. Vujin is the accused in relation to --
25 I'm sorry to be blunt about it, but he is -- in
1 relation to these contempt proceedings. He has elected
2 to have counsel appear with him, and as I understood
3 Your Honours' ruling right at the outset, Mr. Vujin was
4 allowed right of audience. I have no complaint as to
5 the court's decision in relation to that. Either he or
6 Mr. Domazet can elect, therefore, to cross-examine
7 witnesses. I don't object to that.
8 What I'm very concerned about, with the
9 greatest of respect, is it sounds as if what we are
10 getting is either a speech or evidence from Mr. Vujin,
11 and not only that, but evidence or a speech that this
12 witness is presumably listening to on the video, and I
13 would respectfully submit that if Mr. Vujin wants to,
14 in due course, give evidence, the appropriate time is
15 not now. If he wishes to ask questions, that's a
16 different matter.
17 Forgive me for interrupting but, in my
18 submission, we must be very careful here indeed.
19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: We'll explain to
20 Mr. Vujin that his function at this time is limited to
21 asking questions, but if he wants to put in material
22 through this witness in the normal way, I don't see any
23 objection to that course.
24 Yes, Mr. Vujin. Please limit your questions
25 to questions which could be answered by the witness.
1 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, Your Honours. Can I
2 now ask directly, ask Mr. Preradovic directly
3 something? Can Mr. Preradovic hear me?
4 Examined by Mr. Vujin:
5 Q. Can you hear me, Mr. Preradovic?
6 A. Yes, I can.
7 Q. Mr. Preradovic, when I visited you in
8 Prijedor with Mr. Saponja, that was on the 15th of
9 March, 1999, exactly on the day when you were to leave
10 for Banja Luka. Did I, on that occasion, ask you, when
11 I showed you the statement which you signed at
12 Bozo Kos's, to write several -- give us several
13 examples of your signature and to confirm that that is
14 your signature so as to be able to compare that
15 signature with the signature you placed on the
16 statement at Bozo Kos's?
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 Q. Did I leave you a copy of that statement?
19 A. Yes, that's true.
20 Q. Have you got a copy of that statement with
22 A. I haven't got it with me. I have it at
24 Q. Could we now show that statement to
25 Mr. Preradovic, dated the 15th of March? I have enough
1 copies here in English and Serbian, and the original as
3 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 21.
4 MR. VUJIN: I would like to have this shown
5 to witness Preradovic now, please.
6 Q. Can you see the document, Mr. Preradovic,
7 dated the 15th of March?
8 A. I have this one in front of me, but I can't
9 see yours.
10 Q. Can you see the text, the statement of the
11 15th of March?
12 A. Yes, I can see it now. I see it.
13 Q. On the text that you can see, in the upper
14 left-hand corner are there four signatures there?
15 A. Focus in, please, on the document, the upper
16 half. I can't see the upper half. I can see my
17 signature, but I want to see the upper part of the
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Yes, that's this.
21 Q. Are those your signatures?
22 A. Yes, they are.
23 Q. Can you read what it says underneath those
25 A. Could you put the document up a bit?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Thank you.
3 Q. Would you read it out aloud, please,
4 Mr. Preradovic?
5 A. Could you bring it up closer? Could I have a
6 close-up, please?
7 "For my signatures to be used for the
8 statement that I gave to a lawyer, Mr. Vujin, at
9 Bozo Kos's."
10 Then the date.
11 Q. And the signature on the right hand; is that
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Did you write this in your own hand, all of
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. When I requested you to write down your
18 signature several times and to confirm this, did I
19 exert any pressure on you?
20 A. No, you did not.
21 Q. Did I ask you to sign anything else apart
22 from that? Can you hear me, Mr. Preradovic?
23 A. Yes, I can.
24 Q. I'd like to ask you once again to confirm
25 whether the signatures, the four signatures in the
1 upper part of the document, are your own signatures and
2 whether the signature at the bottom of the document is
3 your signature as well.
4 A. Yes, Mr. Vujin, all of it.
5 Q. Did you, at any time, because you've said
6 that you didn't have any contact with the lawyers of
7 Dusko Tadic, did you at any time talk to Mr. Miodrag
8 Kostic sometime in February 1996, who was the
9 investigator of the Tribunal; that is to say, of the
10 former Defence counsel of Mr. Tadic? Did Mr. Kostic
11 have a talk with you?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. You don't remember. Thank you.
14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Vujin, may I ask you
15 to pause to inquire whether-- it's now a little after
16 1.00, and information has reached me as to the
17 necessity for Mr. Tadic to go somewhere for awhile, and
18 we have also on our hands the fact that Mr. Preradovic
19 has a medical appointment. So it's either we finish
20 within a few minutes or we go over to the afternoon,
21 and then I don't know how Mr. Preradovic will stand for
23 What's your position? Will you be much
25 MR. VUJIN: Your Honour, I have concluded the
1 questioning of Mr. Preradovic. I just need two minutes
2 to give the court two more exhibits.
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then may I ask --
4 MR. VUJIN: Just --
5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: -- if it is all right
6 for his client to leave the room now? I believe his
7 client wishes to leave the room now.
8 MR. ABELL: May I just take instructions if
9 that's correct?
10 [Appellant withdrew]
11 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, that's acceptable.
12 MR. VUJIN: Just one more question.
13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You accept the
14 proceedings go on in his absence?
15 MR. ABELL: Yes.
16 MR. VUJIN:
17 Q. Mr. Preradovic, can you hear me?
18 A. Yes, I can.
19 Q. On the day that I came to you and asked you
20 to sign me -- give me several examples of your
21 signature, did I give you, at your request, a photocopy
22 of your statement, the one you made at Bozo Kos's?
23 A. Well, let me tell you this way: Yes, you did
24 give me the statement, but I said to the lawyer
25 beforehand, Tadic's present lawyer, that I seem to feel
1 there was -- but the contents are the same.
2 THE INTERPRETER: There was an interruption,
3 we apologise.
4 MR. VUJIN:
5 Q. All I asked you was whether I left you with a
6 copy of that statement. Did the copy stay with you?
7 A. I received a copy of the statement, yes,
8 but -- that is to say, this one, but I think that they
9 are the copies that I signed at Bozo Kos's, but the
10 contents are there.
11 Q. So those are the copies at Bozo Kos's which I
13 A. I haven't got a copy.
14 Q. Yes. Just one more question for you, Mr.
15 Preradovic. When we spoke over the phone and when you
16 said that you wouldn't be able to testify, did you, at
17 that moment or a little beforehand, were you in
18 hospital, and was that the reason that you were not
19 able to come and testify, because of your illness?
20 A. On one occasion I was outside Prijedor. On
21 the second occasion I was in hospital, but I don't
22 quite remember, but I was absent for valid reasons both
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. Just this thing now. Vujin, can I go on a
2 Q. Yes.
3 MR. VUJIN: I have no further questions, Your
4 Honour, for this witness.
5 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, we'd like to ask
6 leave to ask one question about this document.
7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would you be long?
8 MR. KEEGAN: One question only, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You're aware of the
11 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I should perhaps inquire
13 from the interpreters whether they're agreeable to our
14 proceeding for another few minutes.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
16 THE INTERPRETER: No problem, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you.
18 Questioned by Mr. Keegan:
19 Q. Mr. Preradovic, I'd like to ask you one
20 further question about Exhibit 18, which is the
21 statement headed, "On the question of Mr. Vujin, the
22 Defence counsel of Dusko Tadic". You still have that
23 document in front of you, sir?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. Can you please tell us, do you recall ever
1 signing more than one copy of this particular
2 statement, this particular document?
3 A. The one I have before me here? Number 18 you
5 Q. Yes, when you signed that statement, on the
6 occasion that you signed it, do you remember if you
7 signed more than one copy?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. Well, I did at Bozo Kos's. I did sign
12 Q. Thank you, sir.
13 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, when Mr. Vujin was
14 cross-examining, the witness indicated -- was in the
15 middle of an answer, and I wrote this down: "I said to
16 Tadic's present lawyer that I can't," and then he was,
17 with respect to Mr. Vujin, interrupted, and we never
18 got the end of that answer. I'm afraid the LiveNote
19 transcript has moved up the page and I don't know how
20 to get it down again, but it may be of assistance to
21 the Tribunal to hear what that answer would have been
22 if Mr. Vujin hadn't cut it short.
23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would Mr. Preradovic
24 like to answer that question briefly?
25 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, just bear with me
1 whilst we try to get the LiveNote back to the relevant
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Vujin, the Chamber
4 will give you a chance in a moment.
5 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 MR. ABELL: Let me try without the aid of a
7 note. May I, Your Honour?
8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes.
9 Questioned by Mr. Abell:
10 Q. Mr. Preradovic -- Mr. Preradovic, can you
11 hear us?
12 A. Yes, I can. I hear you.
13 Q. Do you remember Mr. Vujin asking you some
14 questions a few moments ago?
15 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
16 Q. Do you remember Mr. Vujin asking you
17 questions a few moments ago?
18 A. I remember him asking me questions in
19 relation to what I signed at his place. I don't
20 remember the other questions. I remember as far as the
21 signatures go.
22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Abell, is it
23 possible to put to the witness --
24 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, it is. The LiveNote
25 is now coming and I'm trying to get the accurate
2 Q. You were asked this question by Mr. Vujin:
3 Q On the day that I came to you and asked
4 you to give me several examples of your
5 signature, did I give you, at your
6 request, a photocopy of your statement,
7 the one that you made at Bozo Kos's?
8 And your answer was:
9 A Well, let me tell you this way. Yes,
10 you did give me the statement, but I
11 said to the lawyer beforehand, Tadic's
12 present lawyer ...
13 Pause there, Mr. Preradovic. Do you mean
14 Mr. John Livingston?
15 A. I didn't understand you.
16 Q. Mr. Tadic's present lawyer. You said you
17 told Mr. Tadic's present lawyer something about the
18 statement. Did you mean by "present lawyer", John
20 A. I don't know, in concrete terms, what that
21 refers to.
22 Q. All right. You went on in your answer:
23 A I told -- I said to the lawyer
24 beforehand, Tadic's present lawyer, that
25 I seemed to feel that there was ...
1 You were referring to the statement. What
2 did you seem to feel? Seemed to feel that there was
3 what, and you were interrupted. Seemed to feel that
4 there was what?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 MR. ABELL: I'm not going to ask any more.
7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Mr. Abell, the
8 court has been very flexible with you. The court might
9 have taken the position that you ought, at the proper
10 time, to have intervened on that.
11 Now, Mr. Vujin.
12 MR. VUJIN: Your Honours, I am concluding, by
13 tendering another document, and that is an expert
14 opinion as to the identity of the signatures.
15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: May I ask you to reserve
16 that for the time when you're giving evidence, because
17 at this stage we're only concerned with questioning the
18 witness. But you will have a full opportunity --
19 MR. VUJIN: Yes, yes. Yes. Thank you.
20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, let me see if my
21 colleagues have any questions.
22 Only one little question, Mr. Preradovic, if
23 you're there.
24 A. Yes, I can hear you.
25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I gather from you that
1 there was no material inconsistency between the
2 statement which you made to Kos and this statement
3 which you gave to Mr. Vujin. Then can you tell us why
4 you troubled to make this statement to (redacted),
5 dated 15th February, 1999? Why did you feel it
6 necessary to make that statement to (redacted) if you
7 thought that there was no contradiction between the
8 statement which you gave to Mr. Kos and the statement
9 which you gave to Mr. Vujin?
10 A. Well, let me put it this way: The statement
11 I gave to (redacted), it is the same -- the contents are
12 the same as the other one, except that with (redacted)
13 statement, I seem to think that something was not very
14 clear, either in the copy or something else, and that
15 is why I gave this, and I don't know why I should have
16 given the statement at all.
17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, indeed. That's the
18 same question that I'm asking myself. Thank you very
20 Well, we're through with this witness, are
21 we? Then the witness is excused and we will suspend
22 the sitting until 3.00.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.18 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 3.03 p.m.
2 [Closed session]
13 pages 900 to 955 redacted - in closed session.
12 [Open session]
14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: May I take the
15 opportunity of announcing, for the convenience of all,
16 that tomorrow we shall work from 9.30 to 1 p.m. with
17 a coffee break. We will not be able to sit during the
18 remainder of the day. So 9.30 to 1.00.
19 Call in the next witness.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Can you hear me,
23 THE WITNESS: I can hear you, sir.
24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Your name is Sasa
1 THE WITNESS: That's right.
2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Will you kindly take the
3 solemn declaration?
4 THE WITNESS: I understand that. I solemnly
5 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
6 and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Do be seated.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
9 WITNESS: Witness B.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Witness B, will you tell
12 us where you were born and when?
13 A. I was born in Banja Luka on the 1st of
14 February, (redacted).
15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Where do you live now?
16 A. Banja Luka.
17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: What work do you do?
18 A. A waiter in Bosna.
19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Maric, did you make
20 a statement, a written statement, in this case? I will
21 ask the Registrar to show you.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This will
23 be Exhibit 24, which is filed with the Registry under
24 the number 5131.
25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Have a look at this
1 statement and see if that is the statement you made.
2 A. Very well. Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: When you made this
4 statement, the contents were true and correct?
5 A. The truth and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The signature at the
7 bottom is your signature?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The contents of the
10 statement are still true today?
11 A. Fully.
12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then I would ask you to
13 take some questions from Mr. Abell, counsel for
14 Mr. Tadic.
15 Questioned by Mr. Abell:
16 Q. You speak in your statement of an occasion at
17 the Bosna Hotel when you were joined by (redacted),
18 and a little later you were joined by the lawyer Milan
19 Vujin and another lawyer, Simo Tosic.
20 A. Mr. Tosic.
21 Q. And that there was a conversation involving
22 all of you, where you all sat together; is that right?
23 A. That's right. But I was only a guest there
24 with (redacted); I kept him company.
25 Q. And (redacted) was speaking to you about some
1 problems that he'd had?
2 A. Well, he said that he was being threatened,
3 that sort of thing.
4 Q. Mr. Vujin spoke, telling him not to worry
5 about it and that if need be, he, (redacted), could
6 come to Mr. Vujin; is that right?
7 A. Precisely.
8 Q. And (redacted) spoke then of John and Bogdanka
9 Livingston, saying that he had spoken to them about it;
10 is that right?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. Now, you say that Mr. Simo Tosic then said
13 something. Remind us. What did he say? What did
14 Mr. Tosic say about that, when John and Bogdanka
15 Livingston were mentioned?
16 A. To have as little contact as possible with
17 foreign lawyers. Because they were foreign lawyers, he
18 should have as little contact as possible with them.
19 Q. Where was Mr. Vujin when Mr. Tosic said that?
20 A. We were sitting at the same table.
21 Q. How close was he to Mr. Tosic when that was
22 said by Mr. Tosic?
23 A. Well, we were sitting at a round table -- a
24 square table, a round table.
25 Q. What was Mr. Vujin's reaction, if anything,
1 when Mr. Tosic said that?
2 A. A normal reaction.
3 Q. Did he in any way appear to disagree with
4 Mr. Tosic, with his saying that he should have as
5 little contact with John Livingston as possible because
6 he was a foreign lawyer?
7 A. There were no comments.
8 Q. To make sure that we've understood this
9 correctly, would that have been in the summer of 1998,
10 last summer?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you remember if it was early or late
14 A. Sometime in August.
15 Q. Yes. Thank you.
16 MR. ABELL: That's all I ask.
17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Before you begin,
18 Mr. Keegan, Mr. Registrar, did we give a number to this
20 MR. ABELL: Twenty-four.
21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Twenty-four. We
22 admitted it as an exhibit? There are no objections, I
23 take it? No objections. Fine. The record has been
24 straightened out. Thank you.
25 Mr. Keegan, yes?
1 MR. KEEGAN: We have no questions, Your
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Domazet?
4 MR. DOMAZET: Your Honours, we have no
6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: No questions. Well, I
7 will not say that the bench is disappointed. I think
8 we may excuse the witness.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 [Appeals Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Demand has outstripped
12 supply this afternoon. We don't have another witness.
13 So until tomorrow at 9.30, and we will then
14 adjourn until that moment. Thank you.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
16 5.38 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
17 the 3rd day of September, 1999, at
18 9.30 a.m.