Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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 1                           Thursday, 25 June, 2009

 2                           [Status Conference]

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.29 p.m.

 6             JUDGE PROST:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 7             Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Good afternoon

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-05-88/2-I,

10     the Prosecutor versus Zdravko Tolimir.

11             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much.

12             Mr. Tolimir, are you hearing the interpretation in a language to

13     which you understand?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone please.

15             JUDGE PROST:  Are you hearing me now, Mr. Tolimir?  Thank you.

16     If you have any difficulties in hearing at any point in time, please let

17     me know.

18             All right.  For the appearances I note Mr. McCloskey and

19     Ms. Stewart for the Prosecution.  Mr. Tolimir is self-represented, but I

20     note that Mr. Gajic is present in the courtroom who is one of his legal

21     advisors.  Welcome to everyone.

22             This is the 8th Status Conference in this case.  The last being

23     held -- I note the arrival of Mr. Thayer and Mr. Vanderpuye for the

24     Prosecution.

25             This is the 8th Status Conference.  And, obviously, I think we

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 1     are all well aware of the purposes of the conference as a result, which

 2     basically to have exchanges on trial preparation and to review any issues

 3     regarding conditions for the accused.

 4             I think the focus of discussion this afternoon is really on the

 5     final trial preparations.  I do not intend today to set any date for the

 6     pretrial conference, but I do hope to hear from the parties on that issue

 7     in just a moment, but first, I think logically we should discuss some of

 8     the outstanding filings because that will ultimately impact on trial

 9     schedule.

10             Before I hear from the parties on the scheduling of the --

11     essentially the last filings which are the Defence pre-trial brief and

12     any notices of special defences, I should note, because I was curious as

13     to why I had not received this and perhaps the Prosecution is as well,

14     but on the 18th of March, the Prosecution filed a motion under Rule 92

15     quater for the admission of three statements, and there has been no

16     response filed to that motion by Mr. Tolimir.  But I now understand

17     that's because he has not received a translated version of the 92 quater

18     motion.  I've been advised that that was simply due to a technical error,

19     and we are anticipating you will receive that translation mid-week next

20     week by the 1st of July, or in that time-period.

21             So you'll have to keep that in mind.  I'm sure you are aware of

22     the motion, but the filing dead-lines will run from when you receive,

23     Mr. Tolimir, the translated version of that motion.

24             So with that having been said, Mr. Tolimir, I have certainly

25     reviewed the notification which you filed regarding your views on the

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 1     trial scheduling, and I certainly have that in mind, but with regard to

 2     the -- specifically the filing of the pre-trial brief and any notices of

 3     special defence, is there anything else that you wanted to bring to my

 4     attention regarding that dead-line?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, I'd like to greet

 6     everybody here.  God bless you all.  I want to say that I presented all

 7     my views in the -- in my notifications.  I don't think that we should

 8     lose time discussing that at the status conference.  I think that these

 9     are the minimum dead-lines that we should like to see go through, so

10     thank you.

11             JUDGE PROST:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  Appreciate that.

12             Mr. McCloskey, do you have any comments regarding, just this

13     point in time, specifically the question of the filing dead-lines for the

14     pre-trial brief and any pretrial defence brief and any special notices of

15     defences?

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, no comments on that.  I think we are fine.

17             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.

18             Well, Mr. Tolimir, I think what I will do for the moment is I'm

19     going to take into consideration the submissions that you have made, and

20     I will proceed with a Scheduling Order shortly after the conference that

21     will set down those dead-lines, but I should make clear to you that I

22     understand the position you have advanced as to the timing of matters,

23     and the multitude of material and the complexity of the case.

24             I'm still of the view, however, that this case should be ready

25     for trial sometime in September.  I'm not in a position to set any

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 1     pre-trial conference date as I indicated, nor am I going to set the

 2     specific timings at the moment.  But you should be aware that that

 3     continues to be my view, and the dead-lines will be set according to that

 4     goal.

 5             Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, Madam President.  If I could, my

 7     response to your question was in particularly to the basic filing

 8     dead-lines of pre-trial brief.  I would like to make just a brief

 9     submission on the -- Mr. Tolimir's suggestion about November as a date

10     for pre-trial, if I could.

11             JUDGE PROST:  Yes, go ahead.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We have reviewed that.  We've read it.  It

13     appears to us that a fair amount of thought went into it, and we agree

14     that we have given him quite a bit of material and that appears to be

15     fair to us, given that he is represented by himself.  But I also tell

16     that you I have more selfish motives in mind as well.  And that is that,

17     as you know, we are in the midst of the -- well, we are hoping the end of

18     the Popovic et al trial.  And as we have been trying to work on our trial

19     brief, it's just -- it's become clear to the Prosecution we are not

20     getting where we need to get in the trial brief.  We are being distracted

21     on things that are clearly important.  Witnesses coming, other items, and

22     we are just -- we know that the Trial Chamber has expected us to provide

23     a certain kind of product.  We expect ourselves to be able to provide you

24     with a certain kind of product, and we are not going to be able to

25     provide you with a kind of product we want to in that other case.

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 1             So we are going to be filing a motion in that other case.  And as

 2     you also know, the current dead-lines for closing arguments are September

 3     in that other case.  And we would like to have some ability to not only

 4     rest but then get ready for a trial, and it turns out that

 5     General Tolimir's views on that matter actually correspond to our views

 6     for all the reasons I've said.  But I think that is it in a nutshell, and

 7     we'll be filing something in the other case.

 8             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  I'll be sure to pass

 9     that message along to the other Trial Chamber, which in this instance

10     happens to be the same Trial Chamber.

11             Mr. Tolimir, in light of Mr. McCloskey's comments and in

12     fairness, I did sort of somewhat jump the gun so that I would appreciate

13     hearing your comments on the trial scheduling as well and any response

14     you have in relation to Mr. McCloskey's submissions.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank Mr. McCloskey for

16     his understanding.  And I'd like to say that we, too, will be able at the

17     end of September to file our pre-trial brief because the Prosecution

18     pre-trial brief was over 130 pages, so please bear that in mind.  And

19     also I think one has to show understanding towards him because he is

20     working in a -- on a case that is more extensive than this particular

21     case, so I'm sure he does need more time.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  And thank you both.  As I

23     said, I remain -- I have, as you are aware, and the Trial Chamber has a

24     number of factors that we have to balance here in considering the timing

25     of the start of the trial in this case, and as well the last filing.  But

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 1     I do appreciate the submissions.  I appreciate the fact, particularly,

 2     Mr. Tolimir, that you took the time to set out clearly in writing your

 3     considerations on this point, and I've now heard from the Prosecution as

 4     well.

 5             So I think it is -- it would be wiser for me to take all of those

 6     submissions back, and the Trial Chamber will have a discussion on the

 7     issue more fully.  And I will revert or we will revert with a

 8     Scheduling Order that will cover the relevant matters in due course.

 9             So we will leave the actual timing, and I will reflect on the

10     submissions that have been made along with the other factors, of course,

11     that have to be considered.

12             Moving then to a couple of other matters.  I wondered, following

13     up from our last discussion, if we've had any further progress, I know

14     there has been a lot of work on the table on both sides since the

15     conference in February regarding the various motions.  But has there been

16     any progress on the question of agreed facts?  Perhaps I could hear from

17     you first, Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, there hasn't.  And having reviewed briefly

19     the 92 bis and the 94 bis filings where General is virtually challenging

20     everything and has not provided any specific response to us about our

21     offer of agreed facts, we have not endeavoured to go further.  Though, of

22     course, Mr. Gajic is here, and we will be able to talk about it.  We are

23     always ready to meet the General, if he would so agree.  He has not

24     agreed to meet with us yet, but we are always open to that either here or

25     at the Detention Centre.

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 1             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

 2             Mr. Tolimir, do you have any comments on the question of agreed

 3     facts?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We tried to respond to

 5     the Prosecution's request, and I think that you also know the response we

 6     gave.  We presented all the views and all the elements which are relevant

 7     and necessary for this to be adjust and fair trial.

 8             You will, of course, take the final decision and make the ruling.

 9     I don't want either party to do that, whether it be the Prosecution or

10     us.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE PROST:  Well, thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  I'm perhaps an

12     endless optimist, but I'm not yet prepared to give up the subject matter.

13     The last time we discussed this, there was at least discussion of the

14     fact that the question of agreed facts is probably best dealt with once

15     there was a better understanding of the case and the material.  And

16     Mr. Tolimir, you are still working on responses to the Prosecution's

17     motions and still reviewing material.  So I'm going to continue to invite

18     you to consider, as part of the exercise, those facts which really are

19     not matters that need to be litigated in this particular trial.  Those

20     facts which the two parties are in agreement on, I'm going to encourage

21     you to once again think about discussing those.  I appreciate the point

22     you have made, Mr. Tolimir.  Of course there is a trial process, of

23     course it must adjudicate on the key issues in this case, but that does

24     not require that every single fact, in particular matters on which the

25     two parties are in agreement.  And of course the Trial Chamber always has

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 1     discretion as to what it will accept in terms of any agreed facts.  So

 2     I'm going to once again encourage you to have a discussion about any

 3     potential areas where we can try and resolve some facts and avoid the

 4     necessity of calling evidence when in fact the parties are in agreement.

 5     Again, the Trial Chamber having the ultimate discretion, but it would be

 6     certainly helpful to try and focus the proceedings.

 7             So again, if you can pursue that discussion, and we will see if

 8     we can make at least some progress on some facts in that regard.  And

 9     we'll see if that is at all possible.

10             Okay.  Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just as I have the General here, I would invite

12     him to consider the facts specifically related to the 28th Division and

13     their policies and objects, their attacks on the Serbian population, the

14     Serbian army positions, their policies, to tie down Serbian troops.  We

15     agree with much of that, and it would save quite a bit of court time if

16     we can agree to some of those issues.  There are some agreed facts in the

17     Popovic case regarding the 28th Division that I would call your attention

18     to, and I would very much like to agree on those facts in particular

19     because that would save a lot of trial time, and you will find you are

20     not going to have major disagreements with us on much of that.

21             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  That, I think, is a

22     helpful example, Mr. Tolimir, that there may well be facts, as I say, in

23     which you and the Prosecution are simply in agreement.  And if those can

24     be agreed to, it will be of advantage to everyone, yourself, the

25     Prosecution, and the Trial Chamber.  So I'm not asking for any views or

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 1     opinions on particular facts today.  But simply again I'm inviting you to

 2     consider those aspects of the case where both the Prosecution and you are

 3     in agreement and consider discussing those at least with the Prosecution.

 4     All right.  I'll leave that matter with you, Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President.  I'd

 6     just like to state my views without going into arguments.  The facts that

 7     Mr. McCloskey has referred to about the 28th Division in fact, they were

 8     adjudicated in the case of Naser Oric.  He was freed, so the Tribunal

 9     said everything it had to say about those facts.  And I would like you to

10     take into consideration what I set out in my written filing.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  And, yes, you can be

12     assured that the Trial Chamber has regard to the points that you are

13     making in your filings, but again, just bear in mind that there is still

14     scope here in my view, for agreement that could speed along in a fair way

15     these proceedings and trial preparations.

16             I'm going to move then, I'm not going to deal with any of the

17     pending motions, but I am aware that there are certain motions pending

18     for access to evidence and as well as other matters, and the Trial

19     Chamber will be issuing decisions in due course on those.  And obviously

20     once we have all the filings with respect to the applications under

21     92 bis, 92 ter, 92 quater, and adjudicated facts, we will be rendering

22     decisions on those motions as well.

23             I'm going to move, then, really to for my agenda which is the

24     last item, is simply to inquire with you, Mr. Tolimir, about any health

25     issues or conditions of detention issues.  As is normal, Mr. Tolimir, you

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 1     generally don't wish to discuss these in private session.  But, as

 2     normal, I offer to you if you do wish to -- for us to go into private

 3     session to discuss anything relating to your personal matters, I will

 4     certainly do that.  But if your preference is to remain in public

 5     session, that is what we will do.  And I'm taking it that you would

 6     prefer to remain in public session; is that correct?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, that is correct.

 8     I wish to state everything publicly in open session.  I don't wish to say

 9     anything in private session, and I wish everything to move ahead

10     smoothly.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  Then is there any issue

12     you wish to raise with me?  I do have a filing -- well, perhaps I'll just

13     leave it at the question of, Do you have anything you wish to raise

14     regarding your conditions of detention or regarding your health?  Any

15     matters you want to bring to my attention.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President.  I wish

17     to state, first of all, or rather to thank you and to ask you that as

18     the Pre-Trial Judge, you look into how I'm being deprived of sleep for

19     the past two years.  And I've been deprived of sleep every half-hour.  In

20     48 hours I'm being woken up because the security guards look into my

21     cell, and I have to show a reaction to show that I am alive.  So they

22     keep waking me up and then leave my cell.  I think that that is totally

23     unacceptable, so I'd like to have a written ruling from you as the

24     Pre-Trial Judge whether that is permitted or not, to apply these kinds --

25     the methods and deprive me of sleep, or whether this was a decision made

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 1     by the president of this Tribunal, or perhaps the Registrar, or the head

 2     of the Detention Unit or the United Nations.  I want to know who made

 3     that decision because I can't come into trial if I haven't had some

 4     proper sleep.  Everybody knows that.  Everybody knows that you need to

 5     have a certain amount of sleep.  If your body is going to function

 6     properly.  So I can't go ahead with the trial unless I'm allowed to

 7     sleep, and I should be given a little time to rest, as well as

 8     Mr. McCloskey just said he needs time -- or he said that I need time to

 9     rest, because it's human physiology.  It's what the body needs, and I

10     have been deprived of all that.

11             And also I represent myself.  So these kinds of methods were not

12     even applied in concentration camps towards prisoners who didn't have to

13     defend themselves at trial, so I should like to ask you to take this into

14     serious consideration to investigate the matter.  And I raise this issue

15     at every status conference that we've had, this deprivation of sleep.

16     Nobody wants to respond and ask why, but my soul is suffering, not only

17     my body, it is my soul is suffering too.  It is a victim, because I'm

18     being woken up every half an hour.  When they knock, they want me to

19     react so that they know whether I am alive or not.  So I think that I

20     should be given a minimum time for my body to be able to rest up before I

21     can come into the courtroom.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  Now, I have received

23     information on this issue which was filed, however, by the Registry

24     confidentially and ex parte, however, I'm determining that it was done so

25     because it contains and relates to personal information regarding your

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 1     health and monitoring measures in place related thereto.  And given that

 2     you have expressly indicated you wish those matters discussed publicly,

 3     I'm going to discuss the information in public session because of your

 4     specific waiver of the right to have it in private session because

 5     there's no other reason for that.

 6             So basically, Mr. Tolimir, after the last Status Conference where

 7     we previously discussed the issue of your being interrupted during the

 8     night and the effect you felt that was having on your condition, I

 9     certainly took that matter seriously and raised it with the Registry and

10     the officials at the Detention Unit.  I'm advised that the medical

11     officer has determined that for your health and for your own protection,

12     there does need to be monitoring of you.  And this Trial Chamber is

13     certainly not going to begin to second guess the medical opinions being

14     provided at the UNDU.  We accept that the medical officer is certainly

15     far more knowledgeable and in a better position to assess those

16     requirements.

17             However, I did seek from them to pursue any possible means for

18     this monitoring to be carried out without disruption, and I'm advised

19     that they have proposed to you an alternative to the manual viewing,

20     which is the use of medical monitoring by way of a device that can do so

21     in a technical way which will not require the interruptions.  However, it

22     appears that you may have some difficulty with that particular proposal.

23             I'm happy to hear from you on the point, but at the end of the

24     day, Mr. Tolimir, I'm satisfied, particularly with the option that's been

25     provided to you that the UNDU is giving you the opportunity by way of the

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 1     device to have your health monitored over the evening hours, and at the

 2     same time to do so with minimum of disruption, and in fact no disruption.

 3     And then it falls to you to decide which of those options you want to

 4     pursue.

 5             But do you have any comments on that, Mr. Tolimir?  Because I do

 6     understand the point you raised last time about the interruptions, but

 7     there is this additional development.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President.  I'll

 9     just say a sentence or two about what you said in the first part of what

10     you were saying, that the doctor said that I should be monitored.

11     There's no need for that decision because he never actually examined me,

12     nor do I have any health problems, that's the first point.  And when I

13     talked to the doctor, he says the Registrar wants to know when you are

14     going to die, and I said that at the previous status conference.  And

15     that is morbid; I'll die when God so declares, as will we all.  So I

16     don't think that's a reason the doctor can tell you anything he likes,

17     but that is what he told me.  I haven't been using any medicines for two

18     years now; I'm living quite normally; I have no health problems; I don't

19     see why I should be monitored in that way.  They are taking sleep away

20     from me, not depriving me, they are just seizing it and taking it away

21     from me.  Waking me up every half-hour, so please bear that in mind.

22             Secondly, the doctor did offer they attach a low-frequency device

23     which emits low-frequency signals, so that he should know at all times

24     where I am and so that he should have all the parameters which that

25     device provides about my body and its functions.  However, when I asked

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 1     him about his experience about this device, he says that he has had no

 2     experience with it and that it is only Vietnamese veterans of war who had

 3     this device attached to them so that their bosses can know where they

 4     are.  And I know that that device is called by those veterans, the

 5     black box or Satan's device.  And I said that with the New Testament and

 6     with the Bible and Article 13 or Chapter 13, it says that people will be

 7     stamped somewhere on their bodies or on their arms.

 8             I said that the New Testament Jesus Christ, the Bible forbids me

 9     under Chapter 14 to be stamped in this way.  It say that Christians

10     should not bear any stamps on their bodies or on their foreheads or on

11     their arms.  And I said that to them, and I'm telling you now, perhaps

12     somebody would want to stamp you.  But God has told us how we should live

13     and that no stamps should be placed on our bodies, and this is to be

14     found in Chapter 13.  And then in Chapter 14, he says that Christians

15     should not bear this stamp.  And I think that you should respect that.

16     If you look at the Bible and if you look at the New Testament and when we

17     are hear and speak on oath, we take an oath on the Bible, so that is the

18     basis for all laws, both in domestic courts and international courts.  So

19     if that is applied everywhere in the world, why is the exception made, as

20     far as I'm concerned?  So I don't want to wear this Satanic necklace or

21     the black box, as they call it, when I have no medical problems.  And in

22     fact they have made my health worse by depriving me of sleep and waking

23     me up every half-hour.  You try and be subjected to that kind of regime

24     for two years to be woken up every 30 minutes.  I don't know, I really

25     don't know.  All I can say is please come up with a reasonable solution,

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 1     if you can, as the Judge.

 2             Now, as far as the doctor is concerned, why don't other doctors

 3     test his opinions and test the measures that he has proposed that be

 4     applied to me.  I don't know why he is making that proposal, he just said

 5     well, the Registrar wants to know when you are going to die.  Well, I'm

 6     going to die when God decides that I shall die.  Who whose decision is

 7     it?  It's not up to the doctor to impose these Draconian measures.  Worse

 8     measures or measures like that have not even be been applied in

 9     concentration camps, so please bear that in mind.  This is international

10     Tribunal in the 21st century after all.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE PROST:  Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't want to complicate this issue,

13     Madam President, though this is a problem that the Prosecution has had to

14     deal with actually several times with witnesses.  We have -- it has been

15     offered to us informally that, perhaps, a video monitor could be put in.

16     So I don't know what the General thinks of that, but we have had

17     witnesses that the identical thing happens to them.  Every 30 minutes,

18     they are woken up with the banging of the window opening, and it's

19     extremely difficult on them physically.  And we've seen them over the

20     days actually become more and more tired.  But they have offered us the

21     video for the next witness that is going to be here for another case, so

22     I don't know if that's something the General would consider.  Of course

23     it was an informal offer, but it's something else.

24             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.

25             Well, I can assure you, both of you, that these various options

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 1     and considerations are matters that I have raised with the Registry.  As

 2     I said initially, the Trial Chamber is not going to replace or put itself

 3     in the place of the medical officials who are dealing with the issue

 4     knowledgeable about the medical side of the issue, and who are making the

 5     decisions as to what is necessary or not.  What we are prepared to do is

 6     to encourage options which are the least invasive and of least

 7     disturbance to you, Mr. Tolimir.

 8             I will again ask the UNDU medical officer and the authorities

 9     there to discuss this matter with you.  If what you are saying,

10     Mr. Tolimir, is that you'd like a second opinion regarding the medical

11     views, you can certainly discuss and raise that with the medical officer

12     at the UNDU.  I'm not ordering that, but I'm simply saying that it would

13     be helpful if again the medical authorities could discuss the matter with

14     you.

15             I believe I understand what you've said and the concerns you have

16     about the particular proposal that has been made for use of the device,

17     and you will again have to discuss that with the medical authorities.

18     That is an option that has been given to you.  You don't wish to pursue

19     that option, then we would have to look again at alternatives, if they

20     are possible.  But for the moment, I'm satisfied that the UNDU has done

21     the best they can to try and approach this issue in the least disruptive

22     manner that they can.

23             So essentially I will refer it back to UNDU to discuss perhaps

24     the alternative raised by Mr. McCloskey, although, I believe that they

25     have some concerns about that approach in this particular instance, but

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 1     certainly they can consider that and as well speak to you again,

 2     Mr. Tolimir.  They have your views as to your opinion on your medical

 3     state, but they will be the ones who will have to determine what's

 4     appropriate medically for you in terms of your treatment.  So I will ask

 5     that once again the matter be discussed with you, and the Registrar

 6     continue as he and the staff at the UNDU have done so far to try and find

 7     a solution to the problem.

 8             But I believe that's as far as we can go with the issue today.  I

 9     trust that the Registry will continue to keep me updated on the issue as

10     it is something the Trial Chamber and I take very seriously, Mr. Tolimir.

11             There were no other issue that I wanted to raise particularly

12     this afternoon.  But are there any other issues that the parties wish to

13     bring to my attention?  Mr. Tolimir?  Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President.  You

15     said that I am reluctant to have this device on me.  I'm reluctant to

16     have any device emitting signals into my brain, and that is what this

17     device does to the victim wearing it.  And through these waves you can

18     effect neurolinguistic programming of a person.  With these signals you

19     can provoke any reaction from your victim that you wish to achieve.  I

20     asked the medical officer to explain to me how this device works.  He

21     said he didn't know, he had to ask a technician to come over and explain

22     it.  What kind of a medical officer is he, if he doesn't know how this

23     device operates?  So I am not refusing this; I'm only rejecting the

24     possibility to have any signals that will affect my psychological

25     condition.

Page 267

 1             As for the cameras in my cells, there have always been cameras in

 2     my cells.  I don't know why they put it there in the first place, and

 3     this decision was taken by a GP.  It is possible that a GP can dictate to

 4     you or the president of the Tribunal what you should do?  My desire is to

 5     live as long as I wish.  I've been living for the last two years without

 6     this medical officer who has imposed such a Draconian punishment on me,

 7     unheard of even during the Second World War.  He is depriving me totally

 8     of sleep, and he has no right to do that.  I hope you agree with that,

 9     and I would kindly ask you to consider this issue from both the

10     humanitarian aspect and from the possibility of a person to stand trial

11     and participate in a trial without sleep.

12             As I told you, I have been woken up every half an hour, 24 hours

13     a day.  This is unheard of.  This has never been applied anywhere in any

14     prison.

15             Now, you are trying to justify this practice that is being

16     exercised by the medical officer, maybe you didn't understand me

17     properly.  Maybe my statements were not translated properly, but I'm

18     really surprised at your response.

19             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  Be assured, as I said at

20     the beginning, that we take the issue very seriously, and it's not that I

21     don't understand at all the gravity of what you are raising.  And it was

22     in fact because of your comments at the last Status Conference that I

23     have in fact had several discussions with the Registrar and the UNDU

24     about this issue.  So it is not certainly that I don't understand the

25     point which you are making.

Page 268

 1             At the same time, you must appreciate that the Trial Chamber is

 2     not in a position to replace its opinion for the opinion of medical

 3     authorities on medical issues, and I'm sure you can understand that.

 4             So as I indicated, I would like there again to be a dialogue.

 5     The point you made initially that you would like a more detailed

 6     explanation regarding the operation of the device is certainly a

 7     reasonable request, and I'm sure that the UNDU officials can do that for

 8     you.  It doesn't particularly surprise me that the medical officer

 9     himself might not know the details of the operation.  But certainly you

10     are entitled to have that information, and I'm sure it can be provided to

11     you.

12             So as I say, I'm not in a position to impose a particular course

13     of action at this time, but I am asking that again the matter be

14     discussed and that I be kept apprised as to the developments.  So be

15     assured that it is not that I don't appreciate the problem and the

16     difficulties that you are facing with respect to the monitoring that's

17     being done at the moment, and I will continue to discuss the matter with

18     the Registry.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  But I have to point out

20     and I have to ask what kind of concern there is about me if I am being

21     deprived of some basic rights like rest and sleep?  By waking me up every

22     30 minutes, they are simply destroying my health.  Only people who are

23     not normal can think about this kind of measures.

24             Mr. McCloskey mentioned today what effects this has on witnesses

25     after seven days only, so this measure has been imposed on me for the

Page 269

 1     last two years, so please bear that in mind.  What kind of a doctor gives

 2     you a poison in order to keep you alive?  He is destroying me by

 3     depriving me of sleep, just to find out the moment when I'm going to die.

 4     I would personally like to know when I'm going to die, but it is up to

 5     God to decide on that, not me.  So please bear that in mind and have some

 6     understanding for me.

 7             You may have endless trust in the medical officer, but you have

 8     to think about whether this is feasible and reasonable to apply just to

 9     find out when the person is going to die.  And I'm repeating again what

10     he said that he knows nothing about this device and that he asked a

11     computer expert to come and explain it to me.  And he even translated the

12     operation manual to me for this device, and I know that this kind of

13     device has been used for inhumane purposes.  Please bear in mind that I

14     will never accept anything that is inhumane, and it is an inhumane

15     approach to affect somebody's body by having them exposed to certain

16     waves.  So please bear that in mind, thank you.

17             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  I have fully understood

18     your submissions on this.  And as indicated, I will raise it again with

19     the UNDU and the Registrar.

20             All right.  Is there any other matter that either of the parties

21     wish to raise?

22             Mr. Tolimir, I don't see any indication that you have any -- any

23     other additional matters you wanted to raise with me this afternoon?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, I don't.  I don't know

25     if you notice that we would need until the end of September in order to

Page 270

 1     submit the pre-trial brief in view of the Prosecution pretrial brief, and

 2     I assume that we can be granted the same volume of 130 pages, but new

 3     material keeps coming all the time.  I have nothing against it, but I

 4     really need time at least to read them.  We may not conduct an

 5     investigation, but at least what we can do is to read the material.

 6             JUDGE PROST:  Yes, on the issue as indicated, I will reflect on

 7     the submission that you made in writing and the submissions made here

 8     today by both parties.  And we'll be issuing a Scheduling Order shortly,

 9     particularly with respect to the filings as to the pre-trial brief and

10     the -- any special defences, so I have your submissions on that.  I

11     haven't reached a conclusion on that, I will as I indicate, reflect on

12     the positions that have been advanced by both sides.

13             Mr. McCloskey, anything further from the Prosecution?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Madam President.

15             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.  Well, then I believe that this

16     completes the matters to be discussed today.  And I thank all of you and

17     wish you a pleasant rest of the afternoon, and we are adjourned.

18                           --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at

19                               3.14 p.m.