1 Monday, 29 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom. We
6 are now sitting in Courtroom I; it's quite unusual, but it was because of
7 our time change, and I hope, Mr. Tolimir, that was a good day for you
8 this morning.
9 Is the next witness ready?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, I'm told that he is in the
11 waiting room, which I am not sure, I don't recall where it is here, but
12 hopefully close by.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are not used to sit in this courtroom, I
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's been a while. We have made a tour of all
16 the courtrooms, but having Ms. Stewart on my left is very strange, but
17 we'll get used to it.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir.
21 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Welcome to the Tribunal. Would you please read
23 aloud the solemn declaration which is shown to you on the card now.
24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Sit down, please.
2 Mr. McCloskey has some questions for you, I suppose.
3 WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ
4 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
5 Q. Thank you. Good afternoon, can you first tell us your name.
6 A. My name is Jean-Rene Ruez.
7 Q. And, Mr. Ruez, can you tell us, was there a time when you were
8 the lead -- the team leader for the Srebrenica team here at the ICTY?
9 A. I was a member of the Tribunal from April 1995 through
10 April 2001. I started to work on the Srebrenica investigation just after
11 events happened in July 1995. At that time I was an investigator within
12 the team investigating the seizure of Sarajevo, but after that, I did
13 only that, and I became investigation team leader at the beginning of
14 2007 when at last an investigation team was set up for this case.
15 Q. I think you said 2007 --
16 A. 1997, sorry.
17 Q. Right. Okay. And can you tell us, let's just go to the present,
18 what is your current position?
19 A. I'm chief superintendent in French National Police.
20 Q. And can you tell us anything about your current assignment?
21 A. Yes. I'm -- my previous assignments prior to joining the
22 Tribunal was adding services working in the field of judicial police, and
23 at this time I'm police attache in a French embassy abroad.
24 Q. And --
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask you to take short
1 pauses between question and answer. Thank you.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
3 Q. And of course, we all notice you are speaking English. Is that
4 your choice?
5 A. Yes, it is my choice indeed, yes.
6 Q. All right. Now, can you give us a bit about your educational
7 background and how it was that you ended up becoming a member of the
8 judicial police as a career. Just briefly.
9 A. After finalising my university studies I passed a contest that
10 allowed me to join the national police directly at the rank of
11 superintendent, and I chose the option to work in the field of judicial
13 Q. And does that involve a law degree in your educational
15 A. Yes, absolutely, yes.
16 Q. Okay. Now, you've spoken a little bit about your job from 1995
17 to 2006 --
18 A. 2001.
19 Q. Excuse me, 2001, we'll get our years right. Your six years as
20 the team leader for Srebrenica mostly. Can you tell us just a little bit
21 about your job there as an investigator and then we'll get right into the
22 details of your testimony.
23 A. To make it very short, this investigation could be sliced into
24 layers that happened when time was evolutioning. So at the beginning the
25 main task was to compile witness testimonies, then to interview these
1 witnesses, identify the locations where they were talking about. Once
2 the possibility was open go to the Republika Srpska area and find these
3 places, check what could match or not match in order to implement or not
4 to implement the witness testimonies. After that was the need to find
5 the bodies, so to identify, locate, and have primary mass graves exhumed.
6 Following this was the need to find documentation and various materials
7 that could help understand a broader picture of this case. And at the
8 final stage was the task to interview those we believed had things that
9 could enable to have the truth come out of it, so mainly the arrest army
10 personnel, but also police personnel, civilian personnel.
11 Q. All right. And you have testified the Krstic case, the
12 Blagojevic case and the Popovic case for the Prosecution in this regard,
13 have you not?
14 A. Among others, yes, those were on the list.
15 Q. All right. And have you assembled your own group of photographs
16 and videos and maps as part of that testimony?
17 A. I would assess that 80 per cent of what we present is my material
19 Q. All right. And did you make a book for the Popovic case that you
20 had a chance to review for this particular trial?
21 A. Yes, absolutely.
22 Q. All right. And can you just briefly tell us what that book
24 A. The book is designed to help those who have not been on the
25 ground to visualise the chronology of the events that unfolded from the
1 11 July through 17 July.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. 1995.
4 Q. All right. So I think as we have before, we'll go right to that
5 book, which is 65 ter 1450.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honours, this will be on e-court, of course,
7 page by page, and the general has a B/C/S version that we've given him in
8 hard copy. We also have hard copies for the Court, if you would like, we
9 can pass out at the break. But of course, everything is on the computer,
10 and we will just endeavour to go through that.
11 Q. All right. Mr. Ruez, let's start hopefully with page 1.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we move this over so Ms. Stewart can do it.
13 I think we are pretty well practiced at Sanction, so it might be a little
15 Q. I've got your outline in front of me, your -- basically your
16 table of contents which begins with a map of the general area, which is
17 actually page 5. And is this a map that you drew up?
18 A. There is maybe a switch somewhere to go from text to picture, if
19 I remember where now. Thanks.
20 Q. All right. And we -- do you see that -- that map, we see
21 Zeleni Jadar in the south and up to Kula Branjevo in the north?
22 A. This map is the global map of the entire crime scene area, so
23 from south, indeed, to Zeleni Jadar up to north which is the Branjevo
24 farm, Pilica village, and the blue box is roughly the Srebrenica safe
1 Q. All right. And Srebrenica was the first part of your chapter.
2 Let's go to page 6, the next page. What is this?
3 A. So this is a view of Srebrenica town as seen from the south. So
4 in order to see it's a town stretched in between two hills, and the area
5 south is the area from which VRS entered the town.
6 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, 7.
7 A. Same reason for this picture. In order to give a visual of how
8 this town is constructed, stretched in between two hills.
9 Q. We see what I believe is part of a helicopter. Did you take
10 these photographs?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Do you recall when you did?
13 A. That was probably in 1998. It was a helicopter mission in
14 preparation of visuals for the sake of the trial of General Krstic.
15 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot. What is this map graphic?
16 It's number 8.
17 A. So this one is to indicate that on 11 July the population within
18 the safe area took two directions of -- two courses of action. Via 28
19 division, so the army, the Bosnian army, as well as most of the able men
20 took the decision to gather at an area the north of the enclave named
21 Susnjari in order to abandon the -- the area.
22 Q. Can you tell us, we see kind of a grey outline with little yellow
23 letters, what is that?
24 A. The grey outline is the rough border, if one can say so, because
25 there was no border line, but it's the limits of the so-called safe area.
1 And the little dots with letters are the observation posts set up by the
2 UN force that was protecting the area.
3 Q. All right. And this green arrow, I think you've already said, is
4 -- what is that?
5 A. The direction of movement of those who decided to flee the
6 enclave in the 11 in the afternoon.
7 Q. Let's go to page 9. And we see about the same photograph but
8 with a blue arrow and a blue circle. What is the significance of this
10 A. This is the second movement, the population the safe haven took,
11 that is all the women, the elderly, the children, and an unknown number
12 of men who decided not to flee the enclave but to find refuge at the main
13 UN base that was in Potocari. So they had a stretch of road of a few
14 kilometres to walk in order to find shelter at the main UN base of
15 Srebrenica safe area.
16 Q. And we see the scale that this is 5 kilometres, so that puts --
17 each one of these squares is 1 kilometre; is that correct?
18 A. This is correct.
19 Q. And this map is to scale?
20 A. It is.
21 Q. So let's go to page 10. Now, this is a very particular-looking
22 black and white photograph. Can you explain what this product represent?
23 What is it and what does the material on it mean?
24 A. This picture is a picture taken by a US aerial reconnaissance
25 platform dated 13 July 1995
1 product provided by the US State Department, and all the indications in
2 yellow are markings that I added to the picture in order to pin-point
3 some locations in Potocari that have been of interest during the 12 and
4 the 13 July 1995
5 Q. All right. Now, as you may be aware, the Trial Chamber has heard
6 a few witnesses already. They heard some evidence about a house where
7 men were taken to. Was there such a house in your investigation that you
8 were able to identify?
9 A. Yes, indeed.
10 Q. Is that noted here?
11 A. Yes, it is. It is the circle of written "White House" knowing
12 prior to that, that most of the refugees were at the north of this
13 picture in mainly three places that were at the left: Express Bus
14 compound, on the right; Energoinvest factory, the so-called "11 of March
15 factory;" and also the zinc factory. These were the main spots the
16 refugees were trying to find shelter. These places were overcrowded, so
17 in fact there were refugees everywhere, except in the location labelled
18 "blue factory" that was used by Bosnian Serb army. But they were also in
19 the main base, in the UN base, approximately 5.000 refugees who were --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: The speakers are kindly
21 asked to slow down and pause between questions and answers. Thank you
22 very much.
23 THE WITNESS: So I repeat. In the UN base also were
24 approximately 5.000 refugees hiding inside. The relevance of the
25 "White House" is that just a bit above the "White House" was a line of
1 soldiers, first a line of UN soldiers and then a line of Bosnian Serb
2 soldiers, and at the time the refugees were supposed to get on board of
3 buses. This is where they were separated from their families, and these
4 prisoners were systematically taken to the so-called "White House."
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. Let's go to the next page, page 11. And is this another
7 photograph you took or someone else?
8 A. No, this is a photograph that I took. It's another view of the
9 previous photograph but seen from south to north. So opposite direction.
10 And in the blue circle is the UN base, and the "White House" is in the
11 white circle, so it shows the distance between the two locations, and the
12 road that goes from the bottom to the picture to the north of the picture
13 is the road that goes to Bratunac town. That was the destination of the
14 prisoners who were inside the "White House."
15 Q. And is this another photograph you took from a helicopter?
16 A. Yes, correct.
17 Q. All right. Let's go to page 12. Now, before we get into this
18 picture, can you tell us when the first time about that you were able to
19 go to this region after these crimes were reported in July of 1995?
20 A. The first time is the date of this picture, and that was January
21 or February, February, I think, 2006, is so this is why it's winter-time.
22 Q. Sorry, we are doing that again.
23 A. 1996.
24 Q. 1996, okay. It's getting to be awhile back.
25 A. But the reason why I used this one is because it is the freshest
1 in between July 1995 and the first time we approached this place, so for
2 sure there was no snow in summer 1995. It was a very warm summer.
3 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next shot. And we see the same
4 "White House." Can you tell us what the significance of this two-part
5 picture is?
6 A. Yes. The picture above is a still extracted from a videotape
7 taken by a Serb journalist, propagandist named Zoran Petrovic, who did
8 cut out from his original footage some pictures that could be
9 embarrassing for the Bosnian Serb army. And on the picture at the top,
10 which is an extract from his film, one can see a man sitting on a
11 balcony. And this balcony is the first floor of the "White House," the
12 house that all the witnesses say was the storage place for the prisoners
13 that were then -- when they are shipped to Bratunac. And it is also a
14 house that was visited by a Kenyan UN military observer who was present
15 in Potocari, Major Kingori, who could enter the place and witnessed that
16 it was packed with people.
17 Q. As I mentioned to you, we are not going to play the -- what we
18 call, the trial video for you. We've been able to, I think, save some
19 time. But can you explain to us a little bit more about the Petrovic
20 film and the two different versions of it. When -- let's start out, when
21 did Petrovic -- do you know what day it was that he actually did this
22 film or he filmed the people we are seeing right now?
23 A. I don't know for sure how many days he did spend in the area, but
24 we know for sure that some of his footages are dated 13 July, so this
25 one, if he was not there a day before, should be dated 13 July 1995.
1 Q. All right. And when did the -- as far as you know, well,
2 yourself first become aware of this footage that actually had men on the
3 balcony? Just roughly.
4 A. I think this was in 2001.
5 Q. All right. And the original Petrovic film that was obtained by
6 the Office of the Prosecutor, do you know when roughly when the in the
7 investigation that was obtained?
8 A. I think we obtained it from a different channel more or less at
9 the same time in 2001. I was no longer at the Tribunal, but someone came
10 to see me to show it to me.
11 Q. All right. And the video that had this material edited out of
12 it, had that been in the investigation for a long time prior to this?
13 A. Sure, because the public part of the film is something that we
14 worked on frame by frame, mainly in order to identify people, the arrest
15 personnel, but mainly men who appeared on the film and that we tried to
16 find and only to find out that they were missing.
17 Q. And can you tell us -- we see this little circle, and it's barely
18 readable up in the right-hand corner of the black and white picture. Can
19 you tell us what that is?
20 A. Yes, it is the Logo of Studio B, that is a Serbian dependant --
21 so-called independent TV station.
22 Q. And what does that have to do with this story? Do you recall how
23 it was that there was a Studio B logo on this other footage?
24 A. Because the journalist who shot this film was on the staff, and
25 he was working for this TV.
1 Q. All right, and we will get into some other photographs where we
2 see additional Studio B sections of this video a little bit later. All
3 right. Now, let's go to the next page which is page 14. We have a new
4 map. What does this symbolise? Where are we going now in your
6 A. Once the house, the "White House," was filled with prisoners, it
7 had to be emptied. The men on board -- in the house were taken on board
8 of buses, and driven towards the town nearby, that is Bratunac.
9 Q. All right. Now let's go to 15. Now, tell us what this is.
10 A. So again this is an aerial imagery of Bratunac town dated 12
11 July, and this picture shows the first location where a man who had been
12 previously taken to the "White House" were eventually transported to the
13 centre of this town at the location named "the hangar." And this hangar
14 is, in fact, just behind the main school of the town that is named
15 Vuk Karadzic school.
16 Q. All right. Let's go to page 17. And what is this?
17 A. This is a ground view of this hangar that was first a detention
18 place used in Bratunac town, aside another one that we learned later on
19 about, that was the soccer field.
20 Q. All right. Let's go to page 18. Now we have a new diagram and a
21 letter -- excuse me, an arrow going from Jaglici Susnjari area towards
22 Konjevic Polje and Cerska. What is this symbolising?
23 A. This second arrow symbolises the direction that all those who did
24 gather in the Susnjari area took during the night between the 11 and the
25 12 and during the day of the 12, so hitting the direction of north-west,
1 trying to reach this strategic intersection that is Konjevic Polje and
2 then move towards the north in order to try to reach the Bosnian lines in
3 the vicinity of Nezuk, in the north-west of this map.
4 Q. Just very roughly, what kind of terrain would they be covering as
5 they left the Jaglici Susnjari village area?
6 A. It is a hilly terrain that goes along asphalt road, and the
7 direction to be taken for those who were not at all from this area who
8 were refugees who had ended up at the early months of the war in this
9 Srebrenica area was to follow a line of pylons that were running on a
10 hill that is just above the asphalt road going from Bratunac towards
11 Konjevic Polje.
12 Q. Go to page 19. What does this photograph depict?
13 A. So at the bottom you can see the asphalt road I was just talking
14 about, then the hill. And, in fact, the column was walking like an ant
15 column just behind the top of this hill, so that they could not be seen
16 from the asphalt road. And that's the type of terrain they were walking
18 Q. All right. Let's go to page 20. What is this? This one
19 photograph put together, I guess, with two.
20 A. It's in fact three even. This is in order to indicate what was
21 the end point of this first part of the journey that was in fact a big
22 hill overlooking the Konjevic Polje intersection, going then -- in one
23 direction would go towards Nova Kasaba, a place we'll talk about later.
24 And so this is the area of intersection of Konjevic Polje. From the top
25 of this hill, those who intended to cross could have a good look on the
1 area, so to find the best moment they could try to cross, or also a place
2 from where they could see events, we will talk about also later.
3 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photograph, 21.
4 A. So this is another view of the direction they were willing to
5 take, and in order to take this direction, via the yellow arrow, there
6 was still the need to cross the asphalt road. At the end of 12 July, the
7 28 Division who was at the spear-head of this column of people succeeded
8 going through this place, but the following day all this area was
9 cordoned off by Bosnian Serb army and people -- very few people could
10 succeed crossing there.
11 Q. Now, this little cluster of buildings we see on the right side,
12 what is the name of that little area?
13 A. So this is the village of Konjevici
14 Konjevic Polje; it's the same thing. Konjevici and Konjevic Polje is
15 this intersection, in fact. Going north up to the picture towards
16 Zvornik and to the left towards Nova Kasaba, the asphalt road that would
17 hit to the right would be the direction of Bratunac.
18 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to page 22, and we have a section that
19 you've entitled "prisoners of war, regroupment sites, 13 July." What did
20 you mean by that?
21 A. After the night 12/13 July, all the people who were still in this
22 area and did not manage to cross the night before were trapped in this
23 place, and they were led to surrender by people on the asphalt road
24 wearing blue helmets and shouting them that they should surrender, that
25 the UN was there, that the HCR
1 soon with their families. So all this sparked a massive movement of
3 If we start with completely the left side, this surrender spot
4 which is close to -- it's not a surrender spot; in reality, it's a
5 separation spot. For those who had been -- who managed on the 12 to get
6 on board of buses, there was a second line of screening of people before
7 allowing them to cross the line to Kladanj, so they were separated at a
8 location named Luke where there is a little school where they would be
9 put in. And all the other spots, one we already talked about is the
10 "White House" in Potocari, Bratunac, also we talked about it. And then
11 there are the main spots in the middle of the map which are the spots
12 close to this end of the map at Konjevic Polje.
13 Q. And early on in the investigation as you learned about these
14 places, did you go to each one of them individually?
15 A. Yes, absolutely, yes. As soon as 1996.
16 Q. All right. And let's go to page 24, then, and can you -- do you
17 recognise what this photograph or series of photographs is?
18 A. So this is the elementary school of Luke
19 Bratunac were taking this road, and at approximately 500 metres away from
20 this school was a parking-lot, and then started the separation line with
21 -- between Republika Srpska and the Bosniak side of the territory. And
22 the men who were spotted on board of these buses were taken back along
23 this road and put in this elementary school.
24 Q. And how did you find that school?
25 A. It took a little while because initially we spotted Luke in a
1 place inside Vlasenica town, but then moving back and forth along this
2 stretch of road going to Kladanj, we spotted this school and ended up
3 realising this was the good one, and we later on brought on the spot one
4 man who had been kept prisoner inside this school.
5 Q. All right. Let's go to page 25. What is this?
6 A. So this is a photograph taken from the back of the school, and
7 the trees is the area where some of the prisoners were taken and sitting
8 there. This is a picture I took on the indication of the former prisoner
9 who explained the setup of how the prisoners were kept there. So in
10 between -- under these trees was a group, and then he was taken inside
11 the classroom.
12 Q. All right. Let's go to page 26. What is the significance of
14 A. So this is the classroom where this witness -- that this witness
15 recognised as being the one he had been kept inside and where he was
16 subsequently also beaten up.
17 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next segment. This is at page 27, again a
18 map we are familiar with. What is this signifying?
19 A. So this is again spots of concentration spots for prisoners in
20 the vicinity of Nova Kasaba and -- Nova Kasaba mainly for this one,
21 Nova Kasaba concentration spots. Two areas.
22 Q. All right. Let's go to page 28 for a better picture. Now, is
23 this one of these aerial images provided by the United States that you've
24 been talking about?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. And have you relied on this information in black or yellow or
2 both? Can you explain that again just briefly.
3 A. So this picture is US provided. The markings in yellow are the
4 ones that I have added. The building at the bottom of the picture is the
5 65th Protection Regiment designed for the protection of General Mladic,
6 and that is located here in Nova Kasaba. And in front of it one can see
7 three buses parked in front of this military facility.
8 Q. All right. Let's go to page 29. What is this?
9 A. So this is the same building but seen from the asphalt road that
10 goes from Nova Kasaba towards Konjevic Polje.
11 Q. All right. Let's go to page 30. Now, we see this is still
12 Nova Kasaba.
13 A. So this is an area a few k away at the north from the 65th
14 Protection Regiment. It's a soccer field of Nova Kasaba. And those who
15 were on this big hill we showed previously, this was their main spot for
16 surrendering. They went downhill, and they were regrouped on the soccer
17 field that is just underneath the white band marked "Bus Convoy." That's
18 the soccer field. The next photo will show my own markings of it.
19 Q. All right. Let's go to that photograph, then, 31.
20 A. So this indicates the soccer field and areas that show groups of
22 Q. Now, we noted -- how do you know that those are groups of
23 prisoners? Why do you conclude that? We obviously from this level can't
24 tell that.
25 A. We have another one with a closer shot, and we had one labelled
1 as such. And I also, I mean, we also talked with witnesses who were
2 driving towards the confrontation line on board of these buses who could
3 testify these were witnesses -- sorry, these were prisoners. And I also
4 talked about, off record, with someone who was on this soccer field
5 registering people in the early hours of this process, but then they
6 quickly stopped registering people.
7 Q. Okay. I failed to ask you, but on the last photograph which had
8 the same thing, it says "13 July 1995," and then a squiggly line,
9 "1400 hours." Now, as we've learned, this black and white information
10 was provided by the United States. What is that squiggly line,
11 "1400 hours" mean? Do you remember?
12 A. It means approximately 1400 hours, as far as I remember.
13 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photograph, 32. Is this what you
14 were talking about?
15 A. Yes, even in addition to what I said, it's the analysis of those
16 who did the imagery analysis to conclude that, indeed, we are talking
17 about people on this soccer field.
18 Q. When you say those that did it, are you talking about the
19 United States provider?
20 A. Yes, absolutely, yes.
21 Q. All right. Let's go to 33. What is the significance of this?
22 A. This is to give a feeling of the size of the area in order to
23 have a better estimate of a linkage between the area reconnaissance
24 imagery and the picture taken from a helicopter from above.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt you for a short moment.
1 Mr. Tolimir.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
3 object. For 20 minutes now we've been looking at photographs which have
4 been selected by an unknown person, one-sidedly, and all we see on them
5 are facts that would be in favour of the Prosecution. If the aerial
6 photographs were made, they would have been made, and they should have
7 depicted everything. We couldn't see that column of 10 kilometres long,
8 and it's not possible that such an aerial photo was taken and that you
9 wouldn't see such a column.
10 So we should see here photographs that would actually show us the
11 true events and how this column moved, where it went, and so on. So I
12 would really appreciate it if you could now seek answers to all these
13 questions and that these photos not be used until you get answers to
14 these questions so that whatever we learn here could be in the interest
15 of both the Prosecution and the Defence.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, your comment on that?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would briefly state that these -- yes, these
18 are materials chosen by Mr. Ruez, and of course, the General is free to
19 cross-examine Mr. Ruez on any such points, though, I can also say that I
20 did not believe that the numbers in the path of the column was an item
21 that was in dispute at all, but he is certainly open to cross-examine
22 Mr. Ruez and determine what other materials are available. We are, of
23 course, always ready to answer his questions should he want pictures of
24 individual items.
25 In fact, the United States remains open for his requests of this
1 kind of aerial imagery as they are to the -- both the Prosecution and the
2 Defence. So he is free to request to the United States any potential
3 imagery of the column. We are not free under our Rule 70 restrictions to
4 comment on what may or may not be out there in terms of United States
5 aerial imagery, unless it has been, in particularly, provided authority
6 to use, which many of these have been for years. But Mr. Ruez will not,
7 as he well knows, be able to answer questions about what else may be out
8 there. But the General is free to ask the United States, and he may not
9 know that, and so I -- in thinking about it, it's good that he knows
10 that, if that's something that he is interested in.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 Mr. Tolimir, I think it's very clear that you have the right
13 during your cross-examination, after the examination-in-chief, to raise
14 all your concerns and to put the relevant questions to this witness.
15 Thank you.
16 Please carry on, Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. So, Mr. Ruez, just to be clear, is that --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, I think Mr. Tolimir would like to
20 raise another problem.
21 Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
23 point out the problem of conducting investigations. This Prosecution was
24 supposed to investigate matters, and just as he showed the photos, the
25 aerial photos that we've seen here, they should also have shown the
1 photos depicting the Baljkovica, where the fighting was going on, where
2 the column was, and so on. Why should I seek those photos? This was
3 also mentioned earlier in other cases where the Defence could seek such
4 aerial photos from the United States, but this was suggested earlier,
5 and, actually, the Defence was never able to obtain any such documents
6 from the United States. So perhaps the Trial Chamber could seek to
7 obtain such documents, because this would be in the interests of justice
8 and determination of the truth.
9 You should establish the truth, whether this column was a
10 military column or a civilian column. Why don't we have this
11 information? Did the American intelligence service only provide the
12 imagery that would be in favour of one side in these proceedings? And I
13 would really appreciate getting answers to these photos. And pending
14 answers to all these questions, I would seek that these photos not be
15 used because they are -- this selection is only of photos that are in
16 favour of the Prosecution case. Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you got already the answer of the
18 Chamber. You may deal with these problems during your cross-examination.
19 The moment is the Prosecution who is putting questions to the witness
20 related to these photos the witness can give information about.
21 And for your question how to find out the truth, this is, at the
22 end, the task of the Chamber to find out and to give weight to the
24 Please carry on, Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. Mr. Ruez, just to be clear, do we see the soccer pitch on this
3 A. Yes, indeed. This is designed to show what is the real vision of
4 this field compared with this black and white seen-from-above aerial
5 imagery we've seen before.
6 Q. If we go towards the top of this picture, what direction are we
7 going in, just to try to orient ourselves?
8 A. Yes, the top is the direction of Nova Kasaba, and the bottom is
9 the direction of Konjevic Polje. And the hill the prisoners were
10 surrendering from is at the left side.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you move to the next picture, a question
12 from my colleague.
13 JUDGE MINDUA: I was waiting for the translation.
14 [Interpretation] Witness, this is the soccer pitch next to the
15 65 Protection Regiment of General Mladic. Now, I don't know whether in
16 line with the Prosecution's question you will come back to this
17 photograph that we saw earlier where there were people on the soccer
18 pitch, and you said that these people were prisoners. But it's quite
19 blurry, and for the moment we can't really tell whether these are people
20 or trucks or anything else. But more essentially, this group of people
21 or trucks was extremely well organised, you know, in the middle of the
22 soccer pitch, so it's a bit strange. I would like to know whether
23 Mr. McCloskey or yourself would like to comment on this.
24 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I do not make a direct connection at
25 all between the previous photograph showing the 65th Protection Regiment
1 with three buses inside this compound with this picture of a football
2 pitch of Nova Kasaba. The only goal at this stage is to show that at
3 Nova Kasaba there were two regroupment pools of prisoners, one being the
4 compound of the 65th Protection Regiment where the only thing the picture
5 shows is the presence of three buses. We do not know if they are empty;
6 we do not know if they are full. There are Dutch witnesses who were
7 inside this compound and who can testify about the fact that this was a
8 detention facility during these days. And the second separate situation
9 is this football pitch where there are no buses on it, the buses we can
10 see are the buses taking people from Potocari towards Kladanj, is the
11 second and last day of the deportation of the population, and the fact,
12 indeed, is that the people are well lined up. But as you will see in
13 terms of organising the prisoners, these prisoners are always well lined
14 up. We have other pictures show that this was an organised process.
15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Mr. Ruez, I know it's been a long time. Do you recall any
19 intercept from this time-period that has anything to do with this topic?
20 And if not, we'll go on.
21 A. I would prefer not.
22 Q. All right. And was there a military analyst in the team that
23 discusses military documents, military facilities, intercepts, things
24 like that?
25 A. Sure, we have Stefanie Frease who will give any useful detail
1 about the analysis of all what is intercepted communication, and
2 Richard Butler who did the analysis of all the documents that we captured
3 during the search of the Bratunac -- mainly the Bratunac and the
4 Zvornik Brigade.
5 Q. And these black and white conclusions on the United States aerial
6 images, this one, you know, on page, well, 32, the previous page - if we
7 could go back to that - how much faith did you have in the correctness of
8 those conclusions?
9 A. For me, it's a hundred per cent because I can even see the guards
10 on this picture. I see one group in the middle, one stretch on the left
11 and dots, which knowing the ground quite well, I spot them as being
12 individuals, these dots.
13 Q. All right. And I think you said it, but is there in fact, one
14 survivor witness that should be in evidence in this case to talk in more
15 detail about this soccer pitch?
16 A. I remember very well a young pregnant woman I talked with during
17 the summer 1995 and who was a prisoner on this field before being put on
18 board of a bus.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, may I interrupt very short. There
20 are two questions. My question is, if I understood it correctly what the
21 witness said, you asked the witness line 11, on page 23, "Do you recall
22 intercept?" And the witness answered, "I would prefer not." I would
23 kindly ask to clarify that. Do you recall or --
24 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall. I recall we have something in
25 connection with this location, but I don't remember precisely what, and
1 I'm not the one usually talking about the analysis of intercepts. This
2 is why I prefer to stick on my role. I was not the analyst of all these
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That clarifies the situation.
5 Judge Nyambe has a question to that photo.
6 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes, I think page 24, line 3 to 5, you have just
7 said, "I see one group in the middle, one stretch on the" -- I've lost
9 THE WITNESS: Left.
10 JUDGE NYAMBE: "I spot them as being individuals, these dots."
11 Can you please mark those individuals on the picture.
12 THE WITNESS: If I had an arrow, I could.
13 JUDGE NYAMBE: Is it possible?
14 THE WITNESS: If you see the big square, let's say, the rectangle
15 in the middle.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps we can have it on the screen with -- in
17 another format so that it could be marked.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I am sorry, if we
19 could flip into e-court, then he could mark it with the pen.
20 THE WITNESS: How does this work? Can one erase these markings
21 that were done not on purpose. Okay. Let's erase.
22 Okay, so this is one group of people; this is another group of
23 people. But here, it's one individual; here one individual, one
24 individual, one. And maybe one or two, I don't know because it's fuzzy.
25 But as you will see on another picture, there are no bushes on this
1 picture. And these individual dots - but we will have others on other
2 pictures - for me, I identify them as individuals. So, for me, these
3 dots here are guards, as well as this ones. These ones sitting
4 altogether are the prisoners. Sitting or standing, I don't know.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we would offer - we'll get a number for us -
6 this into evidence. And 1450, page 32, marked by Witness Ruez.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have on channel 4, the French translation.
8 I think Judge Nyambe didn't finish, and then after that
9 Mr. Tolimir.
10 JUDGE NYAMBE: Mr. Witness, do I understand you to say by looking
11 at this picture you are able to say there were people there? There are
12 people there?
13 THE WITNESS: For me, as long as this picture is labelled as a
14 representing people, the locations where these people are assembled when
15 I look at this picture is exactly the ones I just marked, a large group
16 in the middle, another group stretched on the side.
17 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honour, the
20 witness said that he thinks these are people. Did he hear this from
21 those who analysed these images, or does he see it and we do not? Anyone
22 can shadow in a certain surface and say that these are people. But if
23 you look at the bushes, the shadows look similar to this square marked by
24 the witness, so can he tell us whether that's his personal opinion? He
25 said he thought. Does he think that, or did he hear from someone, or was
1 he told by someone who was interpreting images for him? Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, this is not the right moment to put
3 questions to the witness from your side. At the moment we are in the
4 examination-in-chief. You should note that question and come back to
5 that during your cross-examination. And then you will have the chance to
6 see this photo again.
7 This photo with the markings, I hope we didn't lose them, will be
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P77, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. McCloskey, please carry on.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. Just so -- I want to be clear on Judge Nyambe's question. Is
13 there -- when you have -- are of the opinion that these are people, are
14 you using anything besides this photograph to come to that opinion, or
15 are you just using solely this photograph?
16 A. I use, in fact, and I will answer in advance to the question of
17 General Tolimir that he will put to me in cross, I also use the fact that
18 I have spent numerous and numerous hours analysing all these pictures and
19 identifying what reference they can have on the ground. So an example
20 you will see also another photograph of this football pitch, that one can
21 see there is no tree in the middle. It's a football field. There are no
22 bushes in the middle.
23 So these grey zones are not shadows. Though, indeed, a shadow
24 has the same pixel than a group of people on the picture, but if you
25 compare what is officially said on the photograph and the corroboration
1 you can make of what a man represents in terms of a pixel on such a
2 photo, this is why I allow myself to say that the dots that I have marked
3 previously are people. And since they are not within the group of
4 prisoners, my conclusion is that they are guards. Only the guards could
5 be out of the area where the prisoners were to be sitting.
6 Q. All right. Is it fair to say that there will be other evidence
7 in this case on this point that the Court will view that you are privy to
8 but we won't get into today?
9 A. Sure. You have in your back-pack many witnesses who can confirm
10 that that day there were people on the soccer field of Nova Kasaba. I
11 don't doubt.
12 Q. All right. Let's go to the next -- well, let's go to 34. What
13 is this?
14 A. This is a picture of the same soccer field dated April 1996, so a
15 bit less than the date -- less than a year than the aerial photograph
16 shows. And this gives an idea of the size of an individual on this
17 terrain, and you can also identify some of these structures, half
18 destroyed structures of the football field at the top of the picture on
19 the aerial one.
20 These people were dog handlers from the 65th Protection Regiment
21 who appeared at random to be on this field the first day of our first
22 real mission in the area.
23 Q. Perhaps let's go back to the 32 -- well, it's all right. Let's
24 keep going. Let's go on to the next chapter, I think we are okay, unless
25 there's any other questions.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Carry on, please.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thirty-five would be the next topic.
3 Q. And what is this about?
4 A. This is another spot in this area where we could identify it was
5 a location where prisoners were taken to, a collection point of
6 prisoners, just at the intersection of Konjevic Polje.
7 Q. All right. Let's go to 36. Here we have an aerial image marked
8 Konjevic Polje. What is this?
9 A. This is an aerial photograph of the facility of the 5th Engineer
10 unit. It's a building just very close by the intersection of
11 Konjevic Polje where one witness will most certainly come to testify at
12 one stage, declared he was initially taken to. He was also taken to a
13 little house which is in the box at the upper left of this picture which
14 was used by this unit as a little communication centre.
15 The picture shows that at that date there were trucks parked just
16 behind that. If fact, they were not trucks, they were bridge trucks
17 parked behind it. So this was a military facility that was the first
18 spot some prisoners were reaching this area at Konjevic Polje were taken
19 to before being taken to a hangar that is just at the intersection.
20 Q. Let's go to page 37. What is this?
21 A. So this is a view from the ground of a previous aerial imagery,
22 and that is the entrance of 5th Engineer Unit, and the little house guard
23 at the left is the first spot where that prisoner was initially taken to.
24 Q. All right. Let's go to 38.
25 A. The second destination after having hit this 5th Protection
1 Regiment -- no, engineer unit, sorry, facility was to be taken to a
2 hangar at the intersection. The only picture we have of this hangar is
3 this one. It was not taken for that sake, but this hangar was then
4 destroyed in 1997, so after that, we never could have any picture of this
5 place, and it is the only available picture of what the prisoner names a
6 hangar just at the intersection.
7 Q. Do you recall what is currently at that intersection where this
8 building used to be?
9 A. There was a gas station, brand new gas station constructed there
10 in -- it was in, I think, 1998.
11 Q. Just to orient us again, this blue arrow, what is in the
12 direction -- well, the opposite direction of the way that arrow is
14 A. At the right of this picture is the direction of Bratunac, but it
15 mainly points at -- the 5th Engineer Unit is just very nearby at the
16 right side of this arrow. So the prisoner and the others, they had to
17 walk and reach this hangar.
18 Q. And this road that winds up the valley going towards the top of
19 the picture, where is that road going again?
20 A. So that's the road entering the canyon of the Drinjaca, and
21 continuing in that direction is the direction of Zvornik.
22 Q. Okay, and then this -- the road going to the left is in what
24 A. To the left is the direction of the soccer field of Nova Kasaba
25 and Nova Kasaba.
1 Q. Okay, let's go to 39. Now, we see military vehicles here. What
2 is this of?
3 A. This is to have a closer shot of the hangar I was talking about.
4 This picture was taken, I took this picture in April 1996, but as I said,
5 one year later approximately, this construction was totally destroyed.
6 Q. And April of 1996, are you travelling with these military
8 A. It was our escort indeed, yes. Part of the escort.
9 Q. Why? Why did you have an escort?
10 A. Because all the crime scenes we were looking at were, what I
11 call, in the garden of the Drina Corps, and even the general commanding
12 the Drina Corps at the time was the same one there in July 1995. The
13 only change was it was no more the Drina Corps, it was the 5th Corps.
14 But all the individuals, all the police, all the army, whoever had had
15 his hands in the events of summer 1995 were still, more or less, all of
16 them in their positions in 1996 and in 1997 and the years after.
17 Q. All right. Let's now go to page 40. What is this?
18 A. This is also a main spot for surrendering, but not for those who
19 were completely at the west of the first part of the trip, so trapped on
20 this huge hill, but those who had been, in fact, stopped in the area
21 during the night between the 12 and the 13 and who decided to surrender
22 quite massively in the morning of the 13 of July.
23 Q. And what is the name of this area?
24 A. The main spot, there were a few others, but the main one is a
25 meadow at the location named Sandici.
1 Q. All right. Let's go to the next photograph. What does this
2 signify, number 41?
3 A. This picture is taken from the asphalt road going from Konjevic
4 Polje towards Bratunac. Behind this hill is, in fact, the approach of
5 Sandici. The interest of this picture is that this one appears in the
6 film of Zoran Petrovic where he is filming groups of people on top of a
7 hill who are in the surrendering process and where when a few minutes
8 later one of the soldiers is saying that since this morning 5.000 people
9 surrendered in this area.
10 So that's precisely the location. It can be compared with the
11 film of Zoran Petrovic, mainly with two elements, one is the electric
12 pylon, and also at the right it's a place where he films people who
13 appear one by one and who are in the surrender process there.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question to the witness.
15 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes. Earlier in your testimony, I think it's
16 page 7, lines 5 to 7, you referred to this same person Petrovic, Zoran's
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 JUDGE NYAMBE: Is this the same film you are talking about even
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's the same film, but this is a part that he
22 did not eliminate from his original film. I think you have seen the full
23 Zoran Petrovic video already, as far as I heard. So these pictures are,
24 in fact, to help you compare what you could see on his film and spot the
25 areas, identify where these areas are. And this one is just before
1 arriving at Sandici and in the chronology of his film, as you know, after
2 Sandici, he is arriving at Kravica, and all these places are
3 interconnected. It's the same stretch of road.
4 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour. Let me try to make this
6 a little clearer by skipping ahead with the trial video. We've left out
7 a little bit that you may need to.
8 Q. Mr. Ruez, can you tell us, Zoran Petrovic filmed basically, well,
9 two areas famous to this investigation on the 13th of July. What was the
10 first area that we see in filming?
11 A. The first area of interest that we can see on his film is indeed
12 Srebrenica and Potocari. The second of very high interest is this
13 stretch of road between Konjevic Polje and Sandici, but mainly Sandici in
15 Q. So could we go to page 40. And so can you just point out again,
16 well, you don't need to symbol it, but we see the area -- the other area
17 that you are talking about that he filmed that we have.
18 A. Potocari, inside the enclave. And also Srebrenica town, there
19 are a few footages of Srebrenica town which ended up being of interest.
20 Q. But the section of road that you were talking about, between
21 which areas?
22 A. It's the area of Sandici, Kravica.
23 Q. Okay. As we see on this map; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. At the right of the blue dot.
2 Q. All right. And just while we are on that point, there -- as
3 you've said there are two different versions of the film, one what you
4 call the public version and then this Studio B version. Can you tell us
5 again, so it's clear, why we have two. Or just identify that so this
6 makes sense, because you'll see photographs on this point.
7 A. The simple reason is that from his original film, Mr. Petrovic
8 eliminated three small parts which were hard evidence against the people
9 he was travelling with in this area. If I'm precise, there is the view
10 of the man sitting on the balcony, that implement the fact that, indeed,
11 the white -- so-called "White House" was used as a storage place for
12 prisoners who were then, bus after bus, taken to Bratunac. One other
13 thing he took out was 30 millimetre anti-aircraft guns shooting on people
14 in the forest. He had kept the previous images of these vehicles
15 shooting from the road, but he had taken away the impacts on the trees in
16 the forest.
17 And the main piece is the pictures we will see, the 3-second
18 footage at the Kravica warehouse where dead bodies can be seen at the
19 Kravica warehouse. So these three seconds are the only live pictures of
20 an execution in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps. So this
21 is the reason why he erased this evidence from his film.
22 Q. Okay. Now let's go to your next sequence in this, which is
23 page 42. What is this?
24 A. So this is a view of the hill from where the people who were
25 trying to flee the area started to move downhill along the path, that one
1 can see at the right, in order to join the asphalt road. And it's a bit
2 hard to recognise, but this is also the place where Zoran Petrovic was
3 filming when he is filming the people who arrive at Sandici and walk next
4 to a big two-storage house and then go to the meadow where they are kept
6 Q. Do you recall the person that he -- that Zoran Petrovic was with
7 mostly, the senior officer?
8 A. Yes, he was with Colonel Borovcanin that day.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: So obviously, Your Honours, that was from another
10 case, another trial, and we will be seeing more information on that, but
11 not, of course, as much detail as we may have seen in that other trial.
12 Q. Mr. Ruez, let's now go to page 43. What's this?
13 A. So this is a picture taken from the direction of the surrendering
14 prisoners were taken, and they were so going up towards this house. And
15 at the left of the house, that's where the film taken by Zoran Petrovic
16 shows the Serb soldiers giving orders to the prisoners in order -- then
17 behind this house is an asphalt road, and just after the asphalt road is
18 the Sandici meadow, so that's the way. And in 1996 there were still a
19 lot of abandon bags and so on at this location that were creating a trail
20 that was, in fact, the trail taken by the people who were surrendering.
21 Q. Let's go to page 44. Another American aerial image. What is
23 A. So this is, indeed, US
24 people will be visible on the next one because the next one has my
25 markings. But on this one, what you can see, middle left there are buses
1 on that location. One cannot see they are moving or not. And the trail
2 is at the left, the top left of the picture, you can see the trail going
3 down hitting the asphalt road, and more or less in the middle, but the
4 next picture will indicate where the group of people is.
5 Q. Okay. Let's go to 45 then, the next picture.
6 A. So the trail is the little line, the little line going from the
7 top of the picture then goes along the destroyed house. That's the
8 precise location where Zoran Petrovic was filming.
9 Q. Excuse me for interrupting. This destroyed house, does that have
10 any relationship to the partly destroyed house we just saw?
11 A. Yes, it's the one we saw on the previous two pictures before.
12 Q. Okay. Go ahead.
13 A. And the group of people is the one marked in a circle, group of
14 people. And at the right I mark the destroyed houses because one of the
15 -- one witness who was on this meadow said that the wounded were taken to
16 the right towards destroyed houses, so that's the location where the
17 destroyed houses are, but, I mean, we have no idea about the fate of
18 these wounded.
19 Q. All right. Let's --
20 A. One thing also, on this one it would be very hard to assess any
21 kind of numbers based on this picture and the location of the group of
22 prisoners because this picture is not straight from above. Is it taken
23 into an angle, and this is a slope, and we are viewing the slope from top
24 to bottom.
25 Q. All right. We'll get a little better picture. Let's go to 46.
1 Now, again here we see the United States says group of people,
2 Sandici, 13 July, approximately 1400 hours. Without going into your
3 investigation, do you -- what is your opinion that this depicts?
4 A. In my opinion it depicts what it says, what it says, what is
5 written on it. We will have the possibility to check that with
6 additional photos coming right after. But again, it's an interesting
7 thing because we have -- we can see that it is taken -- it's a side shot;
8 it's not a shot from above. One can see shadows of the buses, the roof
9 and the shadows, so it gives them some volume. Same thing for the
10 two-storage house; we can see it from the side.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry to interrupt. Can we just put this on
12 e-court again. And if we can go to that last image, if you can find it.
14 Q. And, Mr. Ruez, if you could take that pen again and mark what you
15 believe is the group of people.
16 A. So this is the group of people, but again, seen from a slope that
17 goes from top to bottom. So in fact, these ones are hiding those who are
18 in front of him, getting in a slope. So this is not the full length of
19 that group. This picture, as you can see, is not taken from the top to
20 bottom, but we can see the shadows of the buses here on the side. We can
21 see the facade of the house, of this one house. So we have it from an
23 Q. Now, you mentioned a witness told you that wounded were taken to
24 some house. Do you see the area that he would have been telling you?
25 A. There's one of these houses. Here is another one. There are
1 three houses like this on the side.
2 Q. Can you put a W by those houses that you think are the direction
3 that the witness was saying.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. All right. Let's go then to the next page, page 47.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the sake of the record, the witness didn't
7 put a W.
8 THE WITNESS: You want a W, sorry.
9 In fact, the wounded when they arrived, they were not taken --
10 where is the eraser? Okay.
11 In fact, because of the path they came from is this one -- now,
12 it's erased. They went like this, then they crossed. They arrived here.
13 And then that the ones were taken directly to the houses. They didn't
14 go -- they didn't join the main group of prisoners; they were taken
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President, for
17 catching that. And we would offer this into evidence.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This marked photo will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P78, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
21 And, Mr. McCloskey, do you think that this is a convenient time
22 for the break?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We must have our first break now for technical
25 reasons. We adjourn and resume quarter past 4.00.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. Mr. Ruez, I think we were still at Sandici meadow at the aerial
8 image of the people, that was 48. Excuse me, that was 46. Now, if we
9 could go to 47. Can you, first of all, tell us who took this photograph.
10 A. I took this photograph.
11 Q. And what does it depict?
12 A. This photograph depicts the meadow of Sandici where Humvees are
13 parked in an area that can also be seen very clearly in the video of
14 Mr. Petrovic. Then the little path going up on the left is the one
15 leading to the destroyed houses, the three destroyed houses. The big
16 house is just -- I'm taking this photograph from the two-storage house
17 across the road. And the area marked with yellow is, in fact, the area
18 where on the aerial reconnaissance imagery, we can see the people being
19 sitting. And at the top of it, as you can see, is a slope, and the
20 aerial imagery is taken from the opposite side of it, so this is why on
21 the aerial imagery, it's very difficult to have a real assessment of the
22 size of the terrain occupied by this group of prisoners. This one is a
23 better indication.
24 Q. So let's go back to 46 to see if we can get an idea. Can you
25 make out anything that looks like a slope in this picture?
1 A. Yes. The area --
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, could we just go back to e-court. And
3 this is page 46.
4 THE WITNESS: The area that is relatively flat is the area we
5 will mark as being area A. But the area that on the slope that we see in
6 the following picture is this one, B.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. So in reality, seen from the ground, the area B is close of being
10 the same size than area A, which is not at all obvious on the aerial
12 Q. Let's go to 48 --
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, let's admit that.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P79, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think that was -- are you sure? Yes. 79.
17 Thank you. Carry on, please.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
19 Q. Now, we see the same picture we saw on page 47 but with a little
20 insert picture up in the left corner. Can you tell us what this is?
21 A. Yes, the picture in the frame top left is a still extracted from
22 the video of Zoran Petrovic. One can see men sitting and soldiers
23 standing, and very precise location of this specific event is reproduced
24 on the picture that I took in the yellow box.
25 Q. How do you know that it's the yellow box where this picture --
1 that this picture depicts?
2 A. By viewing the film first, and also by identifying, in fact, the
3 -- just the top of the little path that leads, then, if you continue this
4 path, towards the three destroyed houses. The meadow stretching on the
5 right-hand of the photograph.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. So we really need to be playing the
7 video to get that full -- but for the purpose of this testimony, I don't
8 think we'll do that. We have more detail on another witness and another
9 study for Your Honours. Though, of course, we can do anything you choose
10 on that point.
11 Q. All right. Let's go to 49. Now, this is your map with a red dot
12 above Vlasenica and Luke school in blue, which you've talked about
13 before. What is the purpose of this map?
14 A. The purpose of this map is to indicate on map the location where
15 the witness was kept prisoner at the school of Luke
16 transported on board of a little truck that took him with a group of
17 others from the Luke school, they drove in the direction of Vlasenica,
18 arrived at the level of the soccer field in Vlasenica, they turned left
19 and then they drove for a certain time and distance that was unclear in
20 his testimony in a hilly area so north of Vlasenica that I have roughly
21 indicated on this map because we never found the precise spot, where then
22 he claims having been -- having escaped an execution of those who were
23 inside this little truck. So it's just an indication.
24 Q. So this red dot is just an approximation roughly describing his
1 A. His description that we could not implement with further evidence
2 because we did not find the precise location, though we returned with him
3 but the event for him happened during night-time, and he could be of
4 little assistance in an area where many things look the same. Little
5 hills, little valleys one after another.
6 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to page 50 in your book. And do you recall
7 what this photograph is meant to depict?
8 A. Yes. This photograph is in connection with the map that appeared
9 very shortly previously and that marked the location of one execution and
10 burial spot that is inside the valley of Cerska
11 when taken from the helicopter, the big hill where the men were trapped
12 and trying to cross in the direction of this black arrow, this hill is on
13 the right-hand, so the stretch of road at the right of the picture is at
14 the bottom right, the direction of Nova Kasaba. At the top of it going
15 towards the right around this hill is the direction of Konjevic Polje.
16 And from that point here where the arrow starts is a dirt road that leads
17 inside the so-called valley of Cerska
18 Q. Let me interrupt you there. Let's go back to 50 so we can get a
19 feel for this on the map. We see the red dot near the word
20 Konjevic Polje, and Cerska is a little bit farther down the road; is that
22 A. Konjevic Polje is not the red spot. Konjevic Polje is the little
23 dot that is on -- next to the C of Konjevic, so on the asphalt road. And
24 when we say Konjevic Polje, for the sake of this demonstration, we also
25 talk about the intersection of Konjevic Polje, so a little bit more south
1 than the dot that is on the map. The red dot is the approximate location
2 of the execution burial site we talk about.
3 Q. And that is one of the executions that are noted in the
4 indictment, Cerska valley; correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Okay. All right, then let's go now back to 50, page 51, and I
7 believe that makes a little bit more sense as we orient ourselves. And
8 now let's go to 52. What is this?
9 A. So this is a view from the opposite side of the hill. We are
10 always referring to as being the hill from where the people tried then to
11 cross to come towards the direction I'm taking this photograph. And this
12 is the little dirt road that goes to the left, to the inside the valley,
13 and from the hill in front, the search for the Cerska location started
14 with the testimony of a man who said that he saw three buses escorted by
15 APCs entering the valley, so taking this dirt road. And after some time
16 he heard intensive shooting coming from the valley. One excavator
17 entering again this -- now this valley, and then the buses leaving empty,
18 and crossed with another witness testimony of someone who crossed this
19 area by night and at one point shortly after having entered this valley,
20 he was bare foot and claimed having walked in a pool of blood. So this
21 is what sparked the search for possible execution spot in this valley.
22 Q. And just to orient ourselves, this roadway we can see going from
23 the right and going from the left, can you tell us the roadway at the
24 base of the hill going to the right, what direction that's going in?
25 A. Yes, at the bottom of the hill, this stretch of road goes right
1 towards Nova Kasaba and left towards Konjevic Polje.
2 Q. Okay. And then let's -- now I go to the next one, 53.
3 A. So this is the dirt road that will then enter the valley and at
4 one point indeed as the witness claimed, he could not see anymore the
5 buses and the APCs because indeed at one point entering this area, you
6 are completely hidden of sight from the opposite hill.
7 Q. Let's go to 54.
8 A. So that's to show that the valley becomes narrow and indeed from
9 the other side, though it's a big hill, it's impossible to see what is
10 going on then.
11 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next, 55. What is this?
12 A. So this is a suspect area that we ended up finding in this quite
13 long valley, and there are some features on it that I will have to detail
14 then on the following photographs, but this is the spot where the people
15 from the buses were unloaded.
16 Q. Do you remember why you, as you say, a long valley, why this was
17 a suspect spot?
18 A. In fact, we came to that valley two or three times. The first
19 time was unsuccessful search, so we ended up filming the entire valley.
20 And we had identified a group of three witnesses who didn't know anything
21 about a possible execution in that place, but who spent a week hiding in
22 a little location at Cerska who didn't know how to cross the lines and
23 decided to return towards Srebrenica. And on their way back they hit an
24 area with a very heavy stench that they thought was indeed coming from
25 dead bodies. And at one point of the film, there is a water source that
1 they identified as being close to the location we were looking for, so
2 based on their indications, we returned and found this suspect area. In
3 fact, it was suspect because of this missing soil that I will explain
4 later. And also because of branches that had been put on the side of the
5 road and that had no real reasons to be there.
6 Q. Those are the ones we can see on this photograph?
7 A. On the right. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photograph, 56.
9 A. So in this view the end of the valley is in front of us. So the
10 people were coming from the bottom left of the picture, and where the
11 person in blue is standing is the location where the men were lined to be
12 shot and the bodies fell on the slope that we will see -- it's not
13 obvious on this picture, but there is a slope just at the left of the
14 dirt road.
15 Q. Okay. As far as you know, were there any survivors to this
17 A. No known survivor on this one.
18 Q. Can you, in the next photographs, explain to us how you came to
19 the conclusion you just made. All right. So let's now go to 57.
20 A. So this is a view of the slope that is just next to the gravel
22 Q. And what did you do there once you saw this slope, this dirt?
23 A. We dug three holes alongside of this slope in order to check what
24 could be underneath.
25 Q. All right. Let's go to 58. And is that the process of digging
1 you talked about?
2 A. Yes, yes, yes. This is the digging process indeed.
3 Q. Okay. And 59.
4 A. So in one of these holes we uncovered a group of legs, human
5 legs. It can be seen at the bottom of the picture.
6 Q. Let's go to 60.
7 A. In the other hole, we uncovered the top of a skull. A human
9 Q. All right. And 61.
10 A. And in the third one, we can see also a skull and popping out of
11 civilian clothing.
12 Q. Can you tell us where this skull is, given that we are not
13 familiar with this sort of thing?
14 A. At the left of the picture.
15 Q. Right. All right. Now, let's go to 62. We now see a split
16 image screen from this -- again this is US aerial imagery. What is this?
17 A. So following the discovery of that location, in order to ensure
18 that the event was indeed connected with the July 1995 events and not
19 with anything else, we requested aerial imagery from that precise
20 location. So on the picture at the left dated 5 July 1995, I marked the
21 area where we did this search for a grave in yellow. So one can see
22 there is the gravel road but no additional disturbance. Then compared
23 with 27 July 1995 one can identify two areas of disturbance; one being
24 the left side of the road, so all along the slope we dug; and another one
25 on the right side of the gravel road that we will see on another picture
1 and that matches the soil that the excavator that entered the valley took
2 from the side of the road in order to put the soil on top of the bodies
3 that had been piled up along this edge.
4 Q. All right. Let's go to 63. What is this?
5 A. So on this one the markings in the middle show the line, in fact,
6 where the men had to stand. The left side of the picture we are in the
7 process of collecting shell casings. The shell casings were all to be
8 found at the left side of the road, so one can assume that the people
9 were shot at short range and then the bodies fell on the slope. An the
10 arrow on the left indicates the area where fresh soil was taken away to
11 be dumped then on top of the bodies that had fallen on the side of the
13 Q. All right. Do you remember at this point roughly how many bodies
14 were exhumed from this grave?
15 A. Initially the assumption was that we thought we had to count 50
16 people by bus, and I think that indeed at the end of the exhumation it
17 was more or less precisely that number that was found.
18 Q. This might be a good time to talk a little bit about primary and
19 secondary graves. And while you are not an archaeologist, can you
20 briefly tell us about this, how that fit into the investigation and where
21 this grave fit in particular.
22 A. We will talk about the primary and secondary at one point of all
23 this, but this one is a primary since it's the first location where the
24 bodies have been buried, if one can say so. And this one has been
25 untouched. It stayed like this until we finalised the exhumation. It
1 has not been the topic of any further disturbance. Most probably because
2 the number involved was not sufficient to spark a reburial process.
3 150 victims, unfortunately, in this case, is not a large number.
4 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page, 64. And what is this?
5 A. So this is -- the red dot marks another burial site near
6 Nova Kasaba, as well as an execution site.
7 Q. And were there any survivors of these executions?
8 A. Not as we know. Only one witness who described the scene and the
9 reason why we tried to find the location, the witness was on the hill,
10 the famous hill we always referred to. And in his line of site in
11 between one pylon and one destroyed house, he witnessed a group of
12 prisoners being taken to a meadow having to line up like for a football
13 match, and from APCs lined along the road, men fired at them. Some time
14 later, a second group came, had to do the same thing, and were shot also.
15 And this witness left the area after a third group suffered the same
16 fate. So we tried to find that spot during a long time.
17 Q. All right. Let's go to page 66. What is this?
18 A. So this is the field that we ended up finding. When I say ended
19 up is because we did all the stretch of roads systematically during all
20 the summers we were in the area, and the reason why it took us so long to
21 find is because of this reference, one pylon and one destroyed house.
22 The initial feeling was that they were to be seen in front. In fact, no,
23 they were to be seen from the side. And if I mark the exhibit again with
25 Q. You can't. This one is not in e-court. So I think we are okay.
1 A. But one can see at the left of the picture a pylon, and at the
2 bottom left a destroyed house. And in fact this was the angle of sight
3 the witness referred to. So the execution meadow is the one just in
4 front of us.
5 Q. You can mark that now, thank you very much. If you could mark
6 the execution.
7 A. The pylon. The house. The field.
8 Q. All right. Let's go to 67.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we should admit that.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P80, Your Honour.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. What is this?
14 A. So this is, unfortunately, a bad quality photograph of the same
15 location, and all the little yellow markings are the ones that were put
16 there by the team that went there with metal detectors in order to
17 pin-point bullets in the ground. So this is the area where these bullets
18 were found in the soil, and that gives an indication of the size, let's
19 say, of this execution field.
20 Q. Okay. Let's go to 68. And what is this in relation to what
21 we've been talking about?
22 A. So initially this photograph had only for purpose to show us
23 areas of disturbances in this Nova Kasaba area, so one can see that in
24 these triangles there are two areas of disturbed soil. But this one
25 points with the red rectangle that I have added on the picture the
1 location of this execution field in relation with the disturbances which
2 end up being mass graves.
3 Q. All right let's go to 69. What is this?
4 A. So this is the photograph of -- the top is showing, in fact,
5 where this area of disturbance shown on the aerial photograph is located.
6 So in a corner behind -- close to a tree line. Knowing that -- at the
7 left of the picture is the direction of Konjevic Polje. So it's the
8 direction from where the buses with the deported people were coming from.
9 So it's less chance to be seen also from in this hidden side.
10 Q. All right. Did you go to that area and dig?
11 A. Yes, indeed.
12 Q. Let's go to 70. Now, it looks like you on the right. Who is on
13 the left?
14 A. I'm, indeed, on the right. And the man on the left is
15 John Gerns.
16 Q. And what have you found there?
17 A. So this is a first short exhumation in order to check if there
18 are multiple bodies so that we could qualify the place as being a mass
19 grave. And on this picture, we revealed the presence of six individuals
20 that are, in fact, the first layer of this grave.
21 Q. Okay. Let's go to 71. What is this yellow arrow?
22 A. So this is a picture of a man lying with the head towards the
23 soil and with the two arms in his back, and the yellow arrow marks the
24 ligature, that is a rope attaching his wrists.
25 Q. Let's go to 72.
1 A. This one in the same grave, a man wearing a civilian jacket and
2 he also has his arms in the back, and this one is attached with a wire
4 Q. And can you make out that wire on the photo?
5 A. I think we'll have it clear on the next one.
6 Q. All right. Let's go to 73.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. This is related to the previous photograph?
9 A. It's the same -- more or less the same one, with two markings.
10 One is the marking of the wire ligature, and the other one is his wedding
11 ring. So it shows where the fingers were.
12 Q. Okay. Let's go to 74. We have another red dot. What is this?
13 A. So this is a dot to indicate the location of another execution
14 that occurred in this area, and that's the one we call the Jadar river,
15 which is the river that flows in this canyon, in between two steep hills.
16 Q. All right. And again, this is your same map that is at scale
17 with each of those squares, 1 kilometre; correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Let's go to your next photograph, 75.
20 A. On this one we go back to this hangar at Konjevic Polje which was
21 the end destination for the prisoners who did surrender in the vicinity
22 of 5th Engineer Unit. From this hangar, they were taken on board of a
23 bus. It happened that that day, a random situation there, there was a
24 bus just opposite side of the road. And the red arrow shows the
25 direction that this bus took with these prisoners.
1 Q. Let me try to make clear. When did you take this photograph or
3 A. This one is dated April 1997.
4 Q. So this bus has nothing to do with anything?
5 A. Nothing to do. It's random that a bus appears to be on the
7 Q. And you just used that for your picture, I take it. And the red
8 arrow is to depict what?
9 A. The direction the bus with the prisoners on board did take.
10 Along the Jadar river.
11 Q. And that is going in the direction of what major town?
12 A. Going -- if one continues this road for about 25, 30 k, it's in
13 the direction of Zvornik.
14 Q. All right. And let's go to 76.
15 A. So Konjevic Polje is at the top left of this picture. This
16 picture is taken from helicopter in order to show what type of terrain it
17 is. In the beginning it's flat, and then you enter really in between two
18 steep hills, and that marks kind of boundary between what we call the
19 area south and the area north. And the arrow points where this bus of
20 prisoners was taken to.
21 Q. Okay. Let's go to 77.
22 A. So this is very close to the spot where the bus made a stop and
23 unloaded the prisoners.
24 Q. And why are you going to these places?
25 A. Always for the same reason, to try to check all of the ground
1 elements that could either confirm the credibility of the witnesses,
2 either show elements that would make their testimony unreliable.
3 Q. Now, you've used the word "testimony." That's a word we usually
4 associate with people speaking in court under oath. Is that how you mean
6 A. No, I mean the initial declarations that they gave, first either
7 to the police or the war crime commission, but then that they gave to us
8 as ICTY investigators. And on this occasion, we also brought the witness
9 back to the place.
10 Q. And was this a person that said he was survivor?
11 A. Yes, he survived the execution. I think he was with a group of
12 16 people, and they were lined up alongside of the river and shot in the
14 Q. Let's go to 78.
15 A. So the witness talked about an area where the bus could park and
16 from where they were unloaded and had to walk a little path that led to
17 the river. I mean, not even a path, I mean, an access way to the river.
18 This is a scene from the helicopter, from above, the parking space he
19 referred to. And the arrow marks the direction they took to go towards
20 the river.
21 Q. Before picking this particular spot, did you go up and down the
22 road looking for anything else that might look similar to the
24 A. Yes, because he also in his testimony referred to the fact that
25 when he was floating on the water, he hit the opposite bank and arrived
1 at some barracks that he said were former territorial defence barracks.
2 And, indeed, these barracks exist not far away from, a few hundred metres
3 away from this area. And they became -- after that they became the
4 little bays for the Drina Wolf unit.
5 Q. Did you actually go down to this area and walk it?
6 A. Yes, the area where he claimed having been shot, we would have it
7 on the next picture, I would guess.
8 Q. And that's correct. Let's go to 79.
9 A. So it's not extremely precisely the place because he was a bit
10 uncertain, let's say, at 10, 20 whatever metres, but our goal was to try
11 to find shell casings in that -- in the place that he did spot, and
12 unfortunately we found nothing, absolutely nothing. But one reason of it
13 could be that the level of the water of this river varies quite
14 considerably, and on one picture we will see the kind of flow that this
15 river might have at spring or God knows when, and that washes things
16 away. That will be the next picture.
17 Q. Okay. That's 80.
18 A. Yes. So at this moment the river is shallow, but at some point
19 it can carry logs of that size and at that height. So that might be one
20 explanation why we didn't find any shell casing in that place.
21 Q. All right. Now, you have testified today about areas from
22 Srebrenica to Potocari, to Bratunac, up along the road, and did you
23 prepare for this presentation and in the investigation videotape of some
24 of these areas?
25 A. Yes, indeed. Yes.
1 Q. And I think now that we've had a pretty brief, but, picture of
2 the area that it would be a good time to play his -- these are videos
3 that you yourself took?
4 A. I don't know precisely the one that you intend to show, but most
5 probably yes.
6 Q. Okay. We'll start with the first one that is in the contents of
7 your book, and it's entitled: "Clip Video 1 South to Srebrenica Town
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: 65 ter number 948.
9 Q. And any questions, please interrupt us. And I probably will ask
10 you some questions. Or just, you can narrate this for us.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 A. So this one is again the area south of Srebrenica in order to
13 show the terrain. So the asphalt road here is the road that goes from
14 south to north, so that will at one point reach Srebrenica town.
15 Q. And to remind us the significance of this approach.
16 A. That's the area from where the Bosnian Serb army entered the
17 town, but just as kind of a reference because the investigation is not
18 about the military take-over of the enclave; it's about the fate of the
19 prisoners, either military or civilians.
20 So that's Srebrenica town stretched in between the hills. That's
21 the central part of the town where the main mosque used to be.
22 Transformed into a parking-lot.
23 Q. Can you see where the mosque used to be?
24 A. Yes, it's the yellowish area at the central of this place.
25 Q. And we've got some stills on that topic. So we can continue.
1 And what direction are we going now?
2 A. Now we are going towards still Srebrenica town, going towards
3 Potocari. And if it continues, then it's the direction of Bratunac. So
4 this is Potocari. These are the factories where the people were taking
5 refuge into, "11 of March" and Energoinvest factory.
6 Q. Let's take a little closer look at this, and --
7 A. Sorry, this is the former -- that's the company B, I think, but
8 still in Srebrenica.
9 Q. Tell us what that is.
10 A. Can you have it just a few pictures back. Yeah, okay. Yeah.
11 That was the Bravo company which was the bays of the UN battalion inside
12 Srebrenica town, the main bays being at Potocari, for the small bays.
13 Q. Okay. And --
14 A. One can still see the UN markings on the roof, on the left and on
15 the right.
16 Q. And do you remember when you shot this video?
17 A. I think 1998.
18 Q. All right. Let's continue.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 A. This is still Srebrenica town. And after this little stretch of
21 road, just behind this hill is Potocari.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. That's the Srebrenica segment. And if we
23 could go to the next segment, which is 984. Should be Potocari.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE WITNESS: So more or less in the middle at the left are the
1 factories I thought I did recognise, "11 of March" and Energoinvest. On
2 the opposite is the Express Bus compound, which was an area of
3 regroupment also of refugees. So the two are first factories, and at the
4 right is Express compound. So that was the main area of regroupment of
5 the refugees. One can already see also Express compound, this one close
6 up, "11 of March" and Energoinvest. That was more or less the area of
7 the separation line, here. And I assume I will zoom on the
8 "White House," yeah, in the middle on the left. Yes, the one it's
9 zooming on is the "White House." That is a where the prisoners were
10 taken, once the house was full, they were shipped away towards Bratunac
11 by bus and the process repeated.
12 And this large building is the former accumulator, a battery
13 factory that was, in fact, the main UN base in the safe area.
14 Q. Just to be clear, we see to the left a building with a white
15 roof, and then to the right a much bigger building with a partial
16 orange/red roof. Which is the UN? Or both?
17 A. The UN base is the one with the reddish roof. The white one was
18 not part, I think, of the UN compound.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. Okay. Now we are heading up towards
20 Bratunac, and so we'll get to 996 as we continue.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 THE WITNESS: So this is Bratunac.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's go to 01027. Skipping Kravica
24 section. That was done by someone else, which we'll come back to.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 THE WITNESS: It's something very different.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Okay. We've got the --
4 A. In fact, that's in connection with a big ambush that occurred on
5 the 12. There are still a lot of surface remains to be seen, but it's in
6 combat operation, but that led partially and also led to the surrender
7 process of the 13.
8 Q. Tell us about that. What were these just hill-side shots of --
9 why were you filming that? Based on what did you learn in the
11 A. In fact, it's an area that confirms, indeed, the fact that as we
12 knew there was a main ambush set up there on the 12th.
13 Q. Can you describe the area for the -- and --
14 A. It's on the -- it's the hills. It's along the -- it's on the
15 fleeing path of the column.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 81 just so that we can get that map
17 up there again to get an idea for the Court where we are talking about.
18 Q. We know now that the column left the area of Jaglici/Susnjari,
19 and headed where?
20 A. To the area of Konjevic Polje. So it's on the area we saw on the
21 film, is on the hills behind at the south, the south of Kravica.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we put this up on e-court.
23 Q. Just so you can make just a rough marking where that was,
25 A. It should be somewhere around here. On the precise map of the
1 area, it would be named Kamenica. Which is not to be confused which
2 another Kamenica which is in the Cancari valley.
3 Q. When you say Cancari valley, is that in which municipality, do
4 you recall?
5 A. It's in the broad area of Zvornik. It's the area of the crime
6 scenes north. This one we didn't mark?
7 But again, I mean, this area we did not investigate because this
8 was ambush was part of a military operation, so nothing to do with the
9 crimes we are talking about.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. So I should offer this into evidence,
11 this little blip that goes along with the video.
12 Q. And when you say --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a question, what does this indicate, this
15 THE WITNESS: This roughly indicates the location of the ambush
16 of Kamenica and is linked with the short film seen from the helicopter
17 that was spotting, in fact, surface remains. These surface remains are
18 not part of the case.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P81, Your Honour.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. Mr. Ruez, when you say not part of the case, when this column was
23 going through the woods, and you've already described it partially as an
24 armed head of the 28th Division, were the potential military clashes
25 between that armed column and the Serb forces something you looked into
2 A. The investigation was absolutely not on the fate of the column,
3 aside at the point where the members of this column surrendered or were
4 captured as prisoners. All the rest is linked with a military operation.
5 It was a mixture of armed and unarmed people. The spear-head was mainly
6 composed of the members of the 28th Division. Aside this main ambush
7 that was the legitimate combat operation targeting this column of armed
8 and unarmed people among it, the main military activity took place in the
9 Zvornik area around 15 and 16 when not only did the spear-head go through
10 the lines to try to hit -- to join Nezuk, but also one part of this
11 column did a diversion action, moving -- a large group of them moving
12 towards Zvornik in order to de-route the Bosnian Serb forces from the
13 main objective of the column. But these military aspects were, I mean,
14 useful to comprehend the global process, but they were not at all part of
15 the criminal investigation.
16 Q. All right. We should maybe finish up that video that we started
17 that was up in the woods along the path of the column that you were
18 talking about.
19 A. In fact, the aim of this one is then to show the surrender path
20 of those who were being trapped behind these hills, having also suffered
21 this ambush decide on the morning of the 13 to surrender, and then the
22 helicopter will film the way that they took in order reach the asphalt
23 road at the level of Sandici meadow.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you for that clarification. I apologise.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we can ...
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE WITNESS: That surface remains. So this is the way going
3 downhill towards the asphalt road, Bratunac Konjevic Polje. Now we take
4 this same road by -- on the ground, no more in helicopter. So that's
5 two-storage [sic] building. Just at the left of the this building is the
6 Sandici meadow, so that's the bottom of the valley where the asphalt road
7 is. And here is that building, so first the men had to go up this path
8 and then walk towards the house. This is the Sandici meadow seen from
9 that house. And on the film of Zoran Petrovic, there are some moments
10 where these angles are nearly exactly the same.
11 So that is the Sandici meadow in 1996. On the other photograph
12 you had cornfields, but at that time there was none. And at the time of
13 the events there were none. And indeed, the first time we went there --
14 this is a stretcher. We found various items, "licna kartas," clothing,
16 Q. Can you tell us what a "licna karta" is?
17 A. An identity card. Scattered a bit all over the area. This is
18 the area where the prisoners were sitting on. So that is the area of
19 arrival of the men who surrendered at the asphalt road, and this is all
20 the trail of abandoned items scattering the ground. That's the location
21 from where Zoran Petrovic were filming the people surrendering. That's
22 an example of an ID found on the ground. I don't know what type of ID
23 this was.
24 There's a shell casing. That's a skeleton.
25 Q. All right. And in your book from pages 77 through 85, you cover
1 some photographs of some individual graves of people near the area of
2 Konjevici. I will skip that, and this will be the subject of another
3 person's testimony.
4 But if we could go to page 86 and start with your discussion of
5 the Kravica warehouse. And can you tell us, give us the briefest
6 synopsis of what the investigation showed happened at the Kravica
7 warehouse on the 13th of July, just to put this in context.
8 A. Based on the testimonies of two survivors who had surrendered and
9 been taken to Sandici meadow, both of them were taken to the Kravica
10 warehouse, that is very nearby of Sandici. One by bus taken with a group
11 of others, in total three buses were put in the -- what we named the east
12 part of the warehouse. And another large group was taken by foot and
13 taken into the west part of the Kravica warehouse.
14 And both of them survived the execution that took place inside
15 the warehouse.
16 Q. Let's -- do you know about how many people were executed or were
17 reported executed? The Court will hear much more evidence on this, but
18 just roughly how many people at the warehouse?
19 A. No, I never wanted to make any rough assessment on this. I only
20 know that there are three buses in one part and that the other part was
21 full, but we do not know precisely how jammed the people were inside.
22 And, no, I would not do any assessment on the numbers, but it was a large
23 number. It is a large warehouse.
24 Q. Let's go to page 90 where you first start talking about that.
25 All right, and we have blue and red. Can you tell us what this
2 A. The blue dot is marking the concentration spot of prisoners, and
3 the red dot, the execution site connected with it.
4 Q. Let's go to 91. What is this?
5 A. This is a picture taken from the several-storage house just front
6 of the Sandici meadow, and the red arrow points the Kravica warehouse.
7 So it is to indicate that, indeed, it's a very short distance from one
8 place to the other.
9 Q. And what is beyond -- again to try to get us in tune to where we
10 are, what is beyond the warehouse in this picture? What is the next town
12 A. The next village is Kravica, and continuing in that direction
13 will be Bratunac.
14 Q. All right. Let's go to 92 then.
15 A. So this again is to show the distance, but this time seen from
16 the air and not the ground. The Sandici meadow is just out of the frame
17 at the bottom of this picture taken from helicopter, and inside the red
18 box is the Kravica warehouse.
19 Q. All right. Let's go to 93. What is this?
20 A. The blue arrow shows the direction from which the prisoners
21 arrived at the warehouse. And as one can see, this warehouse complex is
22 composed of four buildings, and the one we are interested in is the one
23 alongside of the road, that is in the red rectangle.
24 Q. Now can you tell us roughly what sort of warehouse this was in
25 July 1995?
1 A. In 1995 I would not think it was used for anything because the
2 area was much too dangerous. But in 1996 it was stored for agricultural
4 Q. All right. Let's go to 94. This is a combination shot of -- can
5 you tell us when this winter shot is?
6 A. So the picture at the top is the first picture that we could take
7 from the warehouse. It was in January 1996 from the ground. The other
8 one at the bottom is dated, I don't know precisely when, but I would
9 think 1998. But the one at the top is the most interesting one since it
10 is the closest in relation to the events. So it shows -- the one at the
11 top shows the entrance, one of the entrance of the building.
12 Q. Is there a significance in the investigation to this broken part?
13 A. Absolutely, yes. Since the witness who survived inside this west
14 part of the warehouse indicated that once the several waves of executions
15 took place in here, an excavator destroyed part of a wall and entered in
16 order to pick up the bodies.
17 Q. So you said that there were people in this west side of the
18 warehouse that were executed. And you mentioned there were two parts.
19 What was the other part?
20 A. This west part has two entrances, in fact. This one that is now
21 looking very large, but in fact that was the same size than the one on
22 the left initially. These two ones, they connect with what we call the
23 west part. And then the east part is more at the left of the picture
24 when there is an open space at the left.
25 Q. Let's go to --
1 A. And another survivor survived from the east part.
2 Q. Let's go to 95.
3 A. This is the east part of the warehouse.
4 Q. And did you speak to the survivor of the east part as well?
5 A. Yes, indeed.
6 Q. All right. And let's go to 96. What is the purpose of this?
7 A. So the picture bottom right is an area reconnaissance imagery
8 showing the Kravica warehouse 13 July, at 1400, approximately. The
9 interest of it is that the witness who survived the execution at the east
10 part of the warehouse said that they arrived by bus. One of the buses,
11 by the way, then did not move any longer because he had been shot in one
12 tire, and on this picture one can see that there are two buses right at
13 the -- one of them being very precisely right at the entrance of the east
14 part of the warehouse.
15 Q. And just to be clear on the chronology, the assemble of prisoners
16 on the Sandici field and them being taken to Kravica and shot happened on
17 what day?
18 A. 13 July.
19 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next picture, 98. Do you remember what
20 this is?
21 A. So these are pictures from the inside of the west part of the
22 warehouse. The arrows mark stains that after analysis appear to be human
24 Q. All right, 99.
25 A. Same thing. It's a close-up of one of the walls of the west part
1 with blood-stains, human hair, human skin, and explosive residues. But
2 this is inside the forensic report of the full analysis of the Kravica
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And that is the subject matter of another
5 witness, who has assembled those forensic reports, Your Honours.
6 Q. And now let's go to page 100. What is this? It's obvious, but
7 tell us what this is.
8 A. This is a hand-grenade. It was found, I mean, I found it, in
9 fact, in front of the warehouse, just at the edge of the road, so it's a
10 lost grenade. Reason why I nevertheless took the picture is that,
11 according to the survivors, the killing happened by opening fire with
12 automatic weapons from all the openings, but also by throwing grenades
13 inside the building, and aside the grenade handles that we could find
14 just at the bottom of some of these openings, I mean, this is the type of
15 grenade in fact that was thrown inside.
16 Q. Okay. Let's go to 101.
17 A. So that's one of the grenade handles that were found around the
19 Q. Okay. And 102.
20 A. So that's a hole that was most probably done by an RPG rocket
21 firing. An anti-tank rocket fired from one window through the warehouse
22 and exploded at the bottom of the one the walls.
23 Q. Why do you conclude that, or opine to that?
24 A. Nothing in reality, because aside from the witnesses -- it's easy
25 to connect the testimonies of the witnesses with the explosions, the
1 grenades since we have the evidence. No one ever talked about someone
2 firing and anti-tank rocket in the building, it's just there, so -- but
3 can I not concluded anything really about this. Knowing also that
4 Kravica village, not the warehouse that is a bit at a distance, but God
5 knows Kravica has been the target of a deadly attack from the 28 division
6 in 1993, and God knows, maybe this thing could be related with another
7 incident, but it's there. And we found also something connected with it
8 in a dump site, but I don't say that it is linked with the event. I
9 don't know.
10 Q. All right, 103.
11 A. That's the exit hole of the explosion, and that shows the
12 direction from where this rocket was fired inside the warehouse. So same
13 line of fire than the ones that were shooting from the windows, but
14 again, I cannot conclude for sure it is connected.
15 Q. All right. And 104.
16 A. So this is -- it's the west side, and this indicates the area
17 where one of -- the survivor of this execution managed to hide. He said
18 that inside this structure there was what he called a guard house that
19 was a more solid construction, and the first time we went we didn't find
20 it, but because we had only a few minutes for us in the place, but the
21 next picture will show that indeed he said the truth when he said that
22 there was a structure inside this thing.
23 Q. 105.
24 A. Because this is where we can see it -- something has been
25 destroyed in that location, and that's the destruction caused most
1 certainly by the excavator that came to collect the bodies. But the
2 marks are very clear, and also the little tiles at the bottom left show
3 that this was some kind of a storage room or whatsoever.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I think it's the break time we've
5 been scheduling.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We must have our second
7 break now. And we'll resume at 6.00.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.
11 [Witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. Mr. Ruez, we are still at the Kravica warehouse going over some
15 of your findings as you are at the warehouse. Let's go to 106 in your
16 book. Tell us what this is.
17 A. So the first time we could do a decent search of the place, so it
18 was in April 1996, just next to one of the site of the warehouse at the
19 west side in front was a dump site. Going through that dump site of
20 rubbish, soil, and things like this, we could find some samples being -
21 according to anthropologist who was with us, on right of this picture -
22 human bones, and also shell casings, cover of a "licna karta," identity
23 card, a few personal items, broken watch, fake teeth, also and a small
24 metal box for cigarettes.
25 Q. All right. Let's go to 107. What is this for?
1 A. So this -- this is showing the other side of the warehouse where
2 separate execution took place, and this is the location where the
3 survivor claimed that three buses full of prisoners were taken to this
4 part of the warehouse.
5 Q. Can we call this the east side?
6 A. Absolutely. This is the east side.
7 Q. Okay. Let's go to 108.
8 A. This is a photograph of the inside of the east part of the
10 Q. Now, could you make anything of any of the things we are seeing
11 on the wall?
12 A. Bullet-holes impacts.
13 Q. Okay. How about 109. Let's go to 109.
14 A. So 109 is a picture that I took because when the forensics were
15 done in the west part of the warehouse, unfortunately, the east part of
16 the warehouse was unprocessed. So I returned to that location and this
17 specific spot, which is enlarged on the following picture, was a stain,
18 so I collected a sample, and the Dutch lab concluded this was human
20 Q. Let's go to the next one, 110.
21 A. This is a closer shot of that sample. And it this was in 1997,
22 since I can read it at the bottom right of the picture. It was in 25th
23 October, 1997.
24 Q. Let's go to 111.
25 A. The surviving witness said that after when night fell, he jumped
1 off a window at the back of the warehouse. The yellow arrow is
2 pin-pointing the window he claims having jumped from.
3 Q. Okay. Let's go to 112.
4 A. That's a photograph from the back of this warehouse. Again one
5 can see at the right, the last window on the right, this is the one the
6 witness allegedly jumped off, arrived in an area just behind the
7 warehouse. At that time he said there was a cornfield. This picture is
8 dated January 1996, and there is no corn left in winter.
9 Q. But those things we see, the brown debris on the field, were
10 those corn-stalks?
11 A. I'm not a botanist, but, yes, they are.
12 Q. Let's go to 113.
13 A. So this one is a photograph of the window completely at the east
14 of the front of the warehouse, so it's not the window from where the
15 survivor jumped out, but the interesting point is to see that at just
16 underneath this window, the next shot will show it larger, there is a
17 shoe print, and it's a shoe print that is reversed. So it's not the shoe
18 print of someone who is climbing up this window, but it it's shoe print
19 of someone who came from opposite way, from the inside to the outside.
20 So he was not the only one trying to jump out of the window, that's my
22 Q. Let's go to 114.
23 A. This is the close shot of the shoe print.
24 Q. So I take it, then, the window is above this picture?
25 A. Just above this picture.
1 Q. All right, let's go to 115. What is this?
2 A. This is a still picture extracted from one of the missing parts
3 of the video that shot Zoran Petrovic when he arrived on the spot with
4 Colonel Borovcanin, the head of the Special Police brigade. If one goes
5 frame by frame through this little piece of a video, this is the door
6 that is at the extreme west of the warehouse from where, as the witness
7 survived inside the warehouse say, that when the fire started people
8 tried to rush out, and obviously they were mowed down at the exit.
9 Q. Well, can you make out what you think this is in front of this
10 door, these piles?
11 A. Yes. It's dead bodies.
12 Q. And were you able to review the video like you said over and over
13 again frame by frame to --
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And that will come later. That is in
16 evidence, this video.
17 Q. Let's go a little further, 116. Can you explain what you are
18 doing here.
19 A. So now the goal is to put in relation the pictures of the
20 Zoran Petrovic video and the existing pictures of the warehouse after the
21 events, mainly after this little excavator entered the warehouse,
22 destroying part of this entrance. So in the picture at the bottom left
23 is from January 1996, the destruction is still complete, and in August
24 1997, part of it has been reconstructed, the top of it. But in reality,
25 the way it has been reconstructed is not exactly the same than initially.
1 There is a distortion of the picture in the film of Zoran Petrovic that
2 makes it look very alike the picture bottom right. But in fact at the
3 time of the events, the door was smaller, because there is also one
4 missing part at the right of this door.
5 Q. Okay. Let's go to 117.
6 A. So again the picture at the top is an extract from the
7 Zoran Petrovic video, and at the bottom right a picture of the warehouse
8 after the events. And in order to see that indeed there is one missing
9 piece at the right, if you compare the three bullet-holes that are in a
10 row at the top and at the bottom of the picture, one can see that at the
11 bottom it is very close to the entrance. And at the top, it's -- there
12 is a missing piece of concrete.
13 Q. Okay. Let's continue to the next one. This is 118.
14 A. So this is to show how, in fact, these doors were initially in
15 the building, so comparing the lines of the top of the windows and the
16 top of the entrance.
17 Q. But this is of the --
18 A. It's the east door of the west part.
19 Q. Okay, so the broken door is to the right of this?
20 A. The broken door is to the right, yes.
21 Q. All right. Then let's go to the next shot, 119.
22 A. So this, in fact, now shows the missing parts of the west
23 entrance of the west part of the warehouse. The interest of this being
24 at the final stage to compare the bullet-holes on the walls in order to
25 check if at the time Zoran Petrovic filmed this little piece of footage,
1 the shooting was over or if more holes can be then seen on the facade of
2 the warehouse.
3 Q. And what conclusion did you make based on your analysis?
4 A. The collusions will come with the following picture.
5 Q. Okay. Let's go to 120.
6 A. No, the following one, because this one again is to show that on
7 the film, the picture of Zoran Petrovic, the part that is in brown at the
8 right is in fact missing on the pictures that we took from the warehouse.
9 Q. All right. The next one is -- this is 121.
10 A. Yes. So now we can compare the picture from the Petrovic video
11 with the pictures of the warehouse, such as it was after the events, at
12 least after January 1996, and the markings show, in fact, where the
13 bullet-holes are on the two pictures at two different dates. One being
14 13 July, and the one at the bottom being after early 1996.
15 Q. So those are -- are those matches?
16 A. One will show the difference, the next slide I think shows the
18 Q. Okay. Let's go to 122.
19 A. So further ones being at the right hand, the three in a row from
20 top to bottom are circled in yellow at the top and also yellow in the
21 picture at the bottom. But there is one additional bullet-hole at the
22 bottom left of these three holes. And even more obvious at the left
23 side, the markings in yellow are the markings that are visible on the two
24 pictures, but in addition to those, they are the bullet-holes marked in
25 red, so three more bullet-holes at the left side at the bottom of this
2 So my conclusion is that, except if one believes that someone
3 later on went and fired for whatever reason on this building, at the time
4 the picture at the top showing the dead bodies was taken, additional
5 shooting occurred after that moment. So the execution in my view, was
7 Q. Was there any evidence consistent with the shooting on-going
8 after this top video was shot?
9 A. At least it matches the declaration of the person who survived in
10 this part of the warehouse who claims that after the first wave of
11 shooting and grenade explosions, people were called to get out, that the
12 Red Cross was there, so some people got out, and then he heard subsequent
13 shots being fired. And this happened in several waves in fact; the
14 shooting did not occur in one instance, but in several waves.
15 Q. All right, and that ends the Kravica warehouse section. So now
16 let's go to page 123, to a new section of an aerial image of Bratunac of
17 12 July. And can you tell us, these are yellow markings, what does that
19 A. At the end of -- at the end of the day of 13 of July, the
20 prisoners that had been assembled at the soccer field, at Sandici meadow,
21 and various other spots along the road Bratunac-Konjevic Polje, all of
22 these people were taken on board of buses and trucks and transported
23 towards Bratunac, that at the day end of 13 became the main concentration
24 spot for all the prisoners captured during the 12 in Potocari and the 13
25 both in Potocari and all along the escape routes.
1 Q. Let's start just briefly with the right side where you've got the
2 football field. What is the significance of that?
3 A. So the football field, I already talked about it together with
4 the hangar behind the Vuk Karadzic school. These were the places where
5 the first prisoners were taken to. Those captured in Potocari, the 12.
6 And then during the day of the 14 other facilities were used, mainly the
7 Vuk Karadzic school, but also the so-called old school, which is more or
8 less in the same area than Vuk Karadzic school.
9 On another slide we will see that since most of these facilities
10 were probably full, the people had to stay on board of buses and trucks
11 that were parked in several lines in the town. The reference to
12 Hotel Fontana, SDS
13 the town is -- it's a small town. Not only the authorities, but all the
14 population, everyone knew that this place was at that moment totally
15 packed with prisoners.
16 Q. So the Hotel Fontana indicated here, is that the same place where
17 they had the meetings that's on the famous film?
18 A. Yes, this is the location where General Mladic called for a
19 meeting, both the head of UN battalion and Muslim representatives, so it
20 was the first meeting in the evening of the 12th with the UN military and
21 the next day with three Bosniak representatives.
22 Q. The SDS
23 get into the detail of it, but that was involved in these events?
24 A. This was the location of the office of the Miroslav Deronjic who
25 was the head of the SDS
1 take-over of the safe area designated by President Karadzic as his
2 special commissioner for Srebrenica.
3 Q. And lastly you note the Vihor company compound. Do you remember
4 that significance?
5 A. It's mainly due to the fact that just in front of the
6 Vihor compound was also a line of buses parked.
7 Q. Right. Let's go to the next one, 124. What are these?
8 A. These are to show, in fact, from the left to the right, from --
9 it's a panoramic photograph. It's right, it doesn't really look exactly
10 like this because it's close to 300 degree this one. The left is the
11 back of the Vuk Karadzic school, so it gives an indication that it's
12 quite a large building. Just next Vuk Karadzic school, the white wall is
13 in fact the gym, so we have no survivors talking about people being
14 inside the gym, but it would make sense that the gym was also used, since
15 it was in other instances. And in the middle, the hangar, which is the
16 location where the first prisoners were taken to. And totally at the
17 right, the technical school which was also used as a detention facility.
18 Q. All right. Let's go to 125. And this is another US aerial
19 image. And what have you marked there in red and yellow?
20 A. The red circle is again the Vuk Karadzic school, the hangar and
21 the old school. In front of the Vuk Karadzic school, the red line
22 represents the location where line of buses and trucks filled with
23 prisoners was parked. More at the bottom of the picture is another red
24 line representing the same thing, the location of the line of buses
25 filled with people. And totally at the top is also a factory which was
1 in fact the HQ of Bratunac Brigade. And in front of this location was
2 also a line of buses and trucks.
3 Q. All right. Now, you've already told us that the black and white
4 on these photographs was information provided by the US, the coloured
5 information that you put in. We notice that there's a little white box
6 below the bigger box that's blank. Do you recall what, if anything, you
7 did with that?
8 A. I blanked it because I used only the imagery support as showing
9 Bratunac town, not to make this picture say anything else than this is
10 Bratunac. The markings are done by myself.
11 Q. Okay. Let's go -- now we start to get into, I believe, what you
12 call executions area north. And this is your first map, so can you tell
13 us about what this depicts?
14 A. Starting in the night of 13 to 14, so in fact, the very early
15 hours of 14 of July, the evacuation of all the prisoners who were packed
16 in Bratunac town started. The first line of buses with prisoners took
17 the direction of the north towards Zvornik and brought the prisoners to a
18 school at the location named Orahovac.
19 Q. It's not real clear, but is that what is marked in yellow?
20 A. Let me see. Yes. But, in fact, the name of the school is -- I
21 have a memory hole.
22 Q. Let's go to 127 in your book.
23 A. Grbavci. The Grbavci school.
24 Q. So we have an aerial image. And can you tell us, what is this
25 information of these areas north basically based on? I don't want to
1 reconstruct the entire investigation in these matters, but let's say for
2 Orahovac, for example, how are you getting this information to go and
3 take pictures?
4 A. The identification of this precise location came during the
5 summer 1995 where according to the witness who was taken to -- we are
6 looking in an area close to Zvornik for a school that had a gym attached
7 to it and that was close to a railroad, since the execution spot is very
8 nearby and was just next to a railroad. So, in fact, we ended up finding
9 such a map, and apparently the only school with a gym close to a railroad
10 line was this one. So the intention was to go to the school, check if
11 the description of it matched the description of the witnesses, and then
12 also find the execution sites, and find the mass grave.
13 Q. All right. And let's go to 128. Split image, what is this?
14 A. So it's a split image that makes, in fact, one image. If someone
15 is just at the entrance that leads from the school which is at the right
16 to the gym. The witness said that they had to drop their bags in front
17 of it and then walk along a fence - the fence is the thing that you can
18 see in the middle of this path - that led to a door, and from that door
19 they could enter the gym, which is indeed the way one enters this place.
20 Q. Let's go to 129.
21 A. So the door in the middle is the door from where someone enters
22 this gym. The prisoners were sitting on the floor, and after some time
23 they were taken, in fact, one by one entering this little wardrobe, the
24 arrow exit, given a sip of water, being blindfolded and then getting on
25 board of a little TAM
1 Q. Do you know when this photo was taken? I think the last one had
3 A. This was taken later. This one was taken either 1997 or even
4 1998. In 1998. This one was taken in 1998.
5 Q. Let's go to 130.
6 A. That one was taken in 1996. According to those who were inside
7 this gym, from time to time when they were a bit talking too much,
8 bothering, making a bit of noise in the gym, the guards were shooting a
9 few rounds in the air. So this is a bullet-hole in ceiling of the gym.
10 Q. Let's go to 131.
11 A. That's another one.
12 Q. That's a different location.
13 A. Yes, that's a different location of the roof.
14 Q. And 132.
15 A. So these are pictures of the windows in order to check if they
16 match the description made by the people who were inside. So that's one
17 of the walls.
18 Q. Okay, 133.
19 A. These are also holes in the windows.
20 Q. Did these windows match anything that any of the witnesses said?
21 A. Yes. And we later on brought them also back to the place in
22 order to ensure and give -- and receive more details.
23 Q. Do you recall how many survivors you identified in the
24 investigation of the Orahovac case?
25 A. I think four.
1 Q. All right. Let's go to 134 now. Do you know roughly when this
2 photograph was shot?
3 A. Yes, that was April 1996. It's 11 April 1996. It's at the
4 bottom right of the picture.
5 Q. What is this?
6 A. So two things on this one, again one can see the fence at the
7 back of this playground which is the fence one of the survivor talked
8 about when he said, That's where we entered the gym. And on the left,
9 top left, it's the door from where the people were taken out. And the
11 of rubbish, of rubbish, and we went through a search of this pile of
13 Q. All right. Now, the door you are talking about the people went
14 out, can you describe so we can see it from -- just where is it in this
16 A. It's at the top left. It's the one that has a fence on it, but
17 the fence was -- I mean, can be open. And there is a destroyed blue half
18 door and the little few stairs.
19 Q. Do you recall that doorway changing at all as you visited this
20 place over the years?
21 A. After two years it was sealed.
22 Q. Let's go to 135. And what is this?
23 A. So these are the items that we discovered when we went through
24 the pile of rubbish. So mainly shell casings of various calibres, but
25 most important of it is the large number and the various types of blind
1 -- of pieces of cloth looking as blindfolds that we could take away from
2 there and later on compare with blindfolds that were found in the mass
4 Q. Okay. And was that comparison done?
5 A. Yes, it was.
6 Q. And that's subject to another expert report?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Let's go to 136.
9 A. So again it's photographed samples of pieces of cloth and also of
10 ligatures attached to a piece of a track, either a bulldozer or tank
12 Q. And let's go to 137.
13 A. So again these are pieces of cloth that we seised and brought
14 back as evidence.
15 Q. 138.
16 A. That's the exit door, but at the time it was later sealed.
17 Q. All right, 139.
18 A. So on this picture, well, two things, at the bottom left, bottom
19 left is the direction of Grbavci school. So continuing, in fact, north,
20 one path is the road, and at the left of the road is the railroad. And
21 where the arrow points, execution site 2, in fact, there is a path that
22 turns left, then there is a dirt road that goes through a very small
23 tunnel underneath the railroad line, and then it turns right and it hits
24 an area behind the railroad. So the first persons who were -- the first
25 trucks who were bringing the people to the execution site went through
1 the site once. They went first under the railroad line, and then behind
2 it was the first execution site.
3 Q. Let's look at another aerial image, 140. We see two different
4 dates on this. What is the significance? Can you try to orient us on
5 this. This seems a little strange.
6 A. So again, let's take first the picture dated 5 July. At the
7 left, the line is the asphalt road that at the top goes towards the
8 Grbavci school. So coming from the top of the picture, one should turn
9 first to the left where it is written "1995," continue a little bit, pass
10 under the straight line that is the railroad, then go under the railroad,
11 turn then towards the right, and at the bottom right of the picture is
12 the area of the execution field.
13 When compared with the picture dated 27 July 1995, one can notice
14 two areas of disturbance. One at the location that I just mentioned, the
15 bottom right of the picture where it's now visible, the large area, white
16 area which is disturbed soil, and that, in fact, corresponds to the area
17 of the mass grave. And once this execution site was totally covered with
18 bodies, one of the survivors recalls that the execution team leader said
19 take the ammunition box, and we go to the other side. And the other side
20 is, in fact, opposite of the railroad, very close to the asphalt road,
21 and this is the area of disturbance that you can see between the top of
22 the picture and where written 27 July. There's an area of disturbance
23 that you do not have on the picture dated 5 July, and where also we later
24 on found a mass grave.
25 Q. Those two mass graves you just have briefly referred to that we
1 can see on these two areas of disturbed earth, and just -- were they
2 determined to be primary graves or secondary graves?
3 A. These ones are primary graves. People were buried on the spot of
4 their execution. The burial of the people at the first site was even,
5 according to the survivors, on-going, meanwhile the execution was also
7 Q. Did the forensics reveal that these were undisturbed primary
8 graves like Cerska or something else?
9 A. These ones were later severely disturbed.
10 Q. All right, so we'll get into that a bit later. Let's go to 141.
11 A. So, in fact, this is the same picture than the previous one, but
12 I added the yellow markings on it.
13 Q. And now let's go to 142. What does the LZ-2 mean?
14 A. This is in fact -- this is a picture taken from the railroad that
15 is on quite high elevation, and that gives a view on the execution field,
16 with where the arrow points one can see an area of disturbance, which is
17 the same disturbance that one could see on the aerial imagery. And from
18 the little tree line at the right and where the plants are and the
19 forest, this was the total size of the execution spot. And at the left
20 side of the picture, at the left side of the yellow arrow, was the area
21 where, in fact, the executioners were staying. It was the so-called rest
23 Q. Let's go to 143.
24 A. So this is the terrain when we first arrived on it, and the
25 little markers, they spot various things that we could see on the surface
1 of the ground.
2 Q. That's too far from us for us to be able to see. We'll get into
3 that a little later.
4 A. There are close shots, a few samples of it later.
5 Q. Again, do you remember the month and year that this photo was
7 A. April 1996.
8 Q. Let's go to 144. What is this?
9 A. So label 25, human bone.
10 Q. And how do you know that was human?
11 A. Because it was the assessment of the anthropologist Bill Haglund
12 who was together with us on this mission.
13 Q. All right. And 145.
14 A. That's a jaw.
15 Q. Human jaw?
16 A. Human jaw.
17 Q. 146.
18 A. Shell casing.
19 Q. 147.
20 A. A piece of cloth and also a ligature. A piece of cloth with a
21 knot, and above it it's another piece of cloth, but it's still embedded
22 in the ground; it's a piece of clothing in fact.
23 Q. All right, 148. What is this?
24 A. Seventeen is the location of a shell casing, and 43 shows the
1 Q. Okay. And 149.
2 A. So this one is the so-called rest area on which we found no
3 bones, no clothing, nothing, but a few things that still connect to the
5 Q. Let's go to 150, then.
6 A. So these are pieces of boxes in which the ammunition is packed,
7 the cartridges are packed.
8 Q. Sorry, could we go back to 149. Just over the -- as we look at
9 this, the left side of this white vehicle, what is that? That structure.
10 A. That is the little bridge of the railroad under which one has to
11 pass in order to come from the Grbavci school to this precise location.
12 So it's hidden from road by the elevation of the railroad.
13 Q. Okay. Let's go to 151.
14 A. That's a metal box that was found in this position but that
15 appeared to be an ammunition box.
16 Q. Where in relation to this area is this?
17 A. If you take the picture before.
18 Q. Okay, let's do that.
19 A. No, the one before.
20 Q. Next one.
21 A. At the top, at the top of this little slope, just behind the
22 first bushes, was obviously thrown there.
23 Q. Let's go back to 151, then. And did that have anything do with
24 the investigation?
25 A. One could think so, since, as I said previously, one survivor
1 overheard the leader of this little squad saying, Take the ammunition box
2 and we move to the other side. This ammunition box was already empty.
3 We found this little subpackaging scattered on this so-called rest area,
4 so as we will see on the next picture, I think such a box contains
5 1.200 rounds, so at least one of these boxes was already used.
6 Q. Okay. Let's go to 152.
7 A. So this is what is written on the box. It's 7.62 calibre
8 ammunition, and, indeed, I think it's 1.280 rounds in it.
9 Q. That's the same box, you've just turned it around so you could
10 read it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay, 153.
13 A. So this photograph is only designed to show how the packaging of
14 ammunition is made. This box was discovered in a very different
15 location. We were looking, in fact, for bodies in a cave, and we found a
16 hiding place for ammunition. So it's in fact, a wooden box, and inside
17 this wooden box is a metal box of the same type that -- of the one we
18 found at that execution site. And inside of it are these little
19 subpackaging boxes that contain each of them, I don't know, maybe
20 10 cartridges.
21 Q. Okay. Let's go to 154.
22 A. So this is a view seen from this execution and burial site that
23 shows the direction then to go not only towards the Grbavci school but to
24 the next execution site which is Lazete 1. The reason why we labelled
25 LZ-1 and LZ-2 is, in fact, a mistake. Based on the assumption that the
1 first execution site, logically, was the one close to the road, and then
2 the second one, LZ-2, the one that we have here in front. But in reality
3 it was totally reversed, but we couldn't know that at the time. The
4 first execution site is this one, the LZ-2. LZ-1 is the last one, the
5 second one.
6 Q. Where did you come up with in word "Lazete"?
7 A. That was the name that was on the maps we used in 1995 and 1996,
8 but later on we had other maps naming this area Orahovac.
9 Q. All right. Let's go to 155.
10 A. So again now, picture taken from the railroad elevation but
11 looking to the opposite direction, so towards the asphalt road that, to
12 the right, leads to the Grbavci school. And the area that I circled in
13 yellow is the area of disturbance, so both execution and burial site.
14 Q. Okay. Let's go to 156.
15 A. So this is to put in relation these two sites. So again, the
16 arrow shows the direction of the trucks bringing the prisoners. Then
17 turning left, going under the railroad line, the triangle being the first
18 execution site, LZ-2, and burial site. And then the last site here was
20 Q. We don't see any crime scene photographs of LZ-1. Do you recall
21 if there was any indications of any execution going on there that you
22 found on the ground at the time?
23 A. It was a very, very difficult location to search because when
24 they opened the mass grave to create the mass grave, they severed a pipe,
25 and all this terrain was totally flushed with water, and so it was
1 extremely muddy and hard to try to find anything. We probed the place
2 with an auger also, that indeed revealed that there was dead bodies in
3 that place. I mean, the soil had been contaminated by human flesh, but
4 it's the exhumation then that brought out the evidence from this place,
5 not the surface.
6 Q. Let's go to 157. What is this?
7 A. This is a garbage place, very close by to the execution site.
8 The other photograph will show it. So we went again in detail through
9 this garbage and could find a number of items of interest.
10 Q. Let's go to 158.
11 A. So that's the beginning of the lineup of what we were finding.
12 In fact, we were finding hats, pieces of clothing, and again, a large
13 number of pieces of cloth, blindfold style.
14 Q. When you say hats, anything particular about the hats you found?
15 What kind of hats?
16 A. The type of hats that old men wear in Bosnia.
17 Q. All right. Let's go to 159. Just -- we see a big yellow "dump
19 A. Yes, so in fact that once under the railroad line turning right
20 it goes to the execution site. But if you continue going a little bit up
21 and then turning left, it's something like 100 metres, is the -- on the
22 site of the path is the dump site that we searched.
23 Q. All right. Let's now leave Orahovac and go to the next one, 160.
24 This -- we see that you have the yellow marking next to the village of
1 A. Mm-hmm.
3 can you tell us about this.
4 A. Yes. The same day, 14 July, another convoy of prisoners was
5 headed towards Zvornik, past Zvornik and were taken to a school named
7 Q. And we can see Orahovac below that, if we squint. So this --
8 A. It's more north than Orahovac.
9 Q. Okay. And do you recall, were there any survivors to Petkovci?
10 A. There were could survivors from the execution site connected with
11 the school.
12 Q. Okay. And can you describe your investigation, what it revealed?
13 Let's go by your photographs as we've been doing. 161.
14 A. So again this is a view of the school taken from helicopter. It
15 shows the distance from the road. It's a two-storage building.
16 Q. And was this consistent with any description you received?
17 A. Not this side, but the other side. Because this seems a high
18 construction and -- in fact, when you approach it. But from the back,
19 you have to go down then stairs in order to hit the entrance. The
20 photographs all, I mean, match the description of the approach, the
22 Q. Let's go to 162.
23 A. So that's a view from the front. The reason why it was taken is
24 that there were guards in front, and in the field, in front of the
25 school. And when some prisoners were trying to stand up in order to get
1 some fresh air at the windows, apparently what is said is that they were
2 shooting at them so that they stay sitting down.
3 Q. And when you say front, in which direction is this from the road
4 we just saw on the previous?
5 A. The road is in the back of the one who took the picture, and I
6 think I took this picture.
7 Q. Okay. Can you just -- so is the person -- where is -- from 162
8 where is the road?
9 A. The road is at the back of the person looking at this picture, in
10 the back. Just 10 metres behind.
11 Q. Okay. So the back of the person that took the picture?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay. Let's go to 163. Is this the same a place?
14 A. Yeah, this is the same place but seen from the back. The asphalt
15 road is bottom -- top right of the picture, goes on to the right towards
16 the -- I mean, goes to the left towards the dam.
17 Q. Okay. So is this the other side of the school --
18 A. The other side, yes.
19 Q. And let's go to 164.
20 A. This is the entrance with stairs going down, as described by the
21 survivors, they were walking in between two lines of soldiers.
22 Q. And what did they describe, when you say going down?
23 A. They describe the approach of the school. They described going
24 up -- the one I interviewed at least, because I didn't -- I interview
25 one, and another colleague interviewed the other one to make sure we were
1 not under the influence of one or the other. And the one I interviewed
2 then took a staircase inside, then a corridor, and was put in a
4 Q. Let's go to 165. What is this?
5 A. That shows the ground floor and the first floor, the staircase
6 being at the right of the picture.
7 Q. Okay, 166.
8 A. That's the staircase.
9 Q. 167.
10 A. That's the corridor, and he was at the last classroom at the
12 Q. 168.
13 A. So he described that there was a stove, a few details that match
14 what we could find inside, though at the time we went, part of it had
15 been renovated.
16 Q. Okay, 169. What is this?
17 A. So this is the blackboard of the classroom, and the markings on
18 the board are bullet-holes.
19 Q. Why did you note those?
20 A. In order to potentially, I say potentially, confirm the fact that
21 there was shooting coming from the outside to the inside, as described by
22 the witness.
23 Q. Okay, 170.
24 A. That is a closer shot of the board.
25 Q. And you've got 171.
1 A. That's the exit.
2 Q. And 172.
3 A. Again, yes.
4 Q. All right.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I've overlooked offering the
6 videos, short videos into evidence at the time, as I'm required to do so.
7 So perhaps I can do that now. They were 948, 984, 996, and 1027.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They all will be received as separate videos --
9 separate exhibits.
10 THE REGISTRAR: 948 will be Exhibit P82; 984 will be Exhibit P83;
11 996 will be Exhibit P84; 01027 will be Exhibit P85, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
13 Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Thank you. That finishes the school.
15 Q. Let's go to 173. We see you've got a mark that is still near
16 Petkovci. Where are we going now?
17 A. The prisoners who were inside the school of Petkovci
18 out, put on board of trucks, and driven to a nearby location, that is the
19 dam of Petkovci. The dam of Petkovci being, in fact, a reservoir of
20 liquid pumped from a nearby aluminum factory. So it's chemical waste
21 dam, in fact.
22 Q. Okay. Let's go to 174. What is this?
23 A. At the middle right, the path is the access path that leads to
24 this large area which is the plateau at the foot of the dam, and this is
25 the area where the trucks were ending, the people were unloaded, and this
1 is, in fact, the execution area.
2 Q. Okay. And let's go to 175. This is -- you've chosen to put this
3 here. Again we are at these US
5 A. I should have pointed on the previous picture an area of
6 disturbance where the people are. In fact, we make, more or less, the
7 tour of this area of disturbance, and this is the photo shown -- a
8 comparison shown on the next one, which indeed pin points the area of
9 disturbance, which will, in fact, be more relevant when we talk about the
10 disturbance of the graves because, in fact, the one of 7 September 1995,
11 the disturbance already exists, but at the time the belief was that this
12 place, based on the imagery, had not been disturbed, but we knew it was.
13 Q. Now, you said that there's this water dam. Is there any water on
14 this? And this is hard for anybody to make out, unless you've been
15 there. Can you tell us where this is in relation to the water that you
16 spoke of?
17 A. Yeah, this is in fact, the plateau of a dam, so the foot of the
18 dam, and then at the right side of the picture will be the wall of the
19 dam, and completely right would be the red lake of aluminum chemical
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. But we will see it on another picture.
23 Q. Let's go to 176.
24 A. So this is another view of the execution area, so the plateau of
25 the dam. The little picture on top of it is a picture that I took of one
1 of the two survivors, and he indicated me that day where he was standing
2 because when he arrived there, the executioners told him to find a free
3 spot. The place was covered with bodies. And the arrow marks the
4 location where he told me that he stand there.
5 In front is a little hill with a wood which will be of relevance,
6 because the escapeway for him and his companion who was very nearby him
7 also was first to crawl into some ditch, then hide into a small forest
8 from where they could see what was going on, on the dam. And then their
9 escape route was to go uphill towards the left of this picture.
10 Q. Let's go to 177. What is the significance here?
11 A. That is the ditch that was described by the survivors as the
12 ditch in which he first entered before hitting the little forest.
13 Q. All right, and 178.
14 A. So here you have the picture we were talking about. You
15 recognise the plateau, the execution area and burial area. Then more at
16 the bottom still in white, it's the wall of the dam. And in orange,
17 which is the natural colour of the water, is, in fact, the lake. And the
18 marking in blue is the escape route of the two survivors.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I can't see the clock from here,
20 but I'm told it's time to quit.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Absolutely correct. You are running out of time,
22 and we have to adjourn for the day.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can tell you that I should finish before the
24 end of tomorrow, so I would think there should be some time for
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
2 We have to adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow in
3 the afternoon in courtroom 3 at 2.15. I think you are fully aware of
4 your situation, you have to stay and come back to the court tomorrow.
5 Thank you very much.
6 We adjourn.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 30th day of March,
10 2010, at 2.15 p.m.