Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1002

 1                           Tuesday, 30 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

 6     The witness should be brought in.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon.  Please sit down.  May I remind

 9     you the affirmation, the solemn declaration, you made yesterday still

10     applies.

11             THE WITNESS:  Absolutely, sir.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey has some more questions for you.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon

14     everyone.

15                           WITNESS:  JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]

16                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

17        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Ruez.  We should have 178 up on the screen.

18     I don't know if it's on your screen yet.  It's -- and you had just

19     described this orange water as the normal colour of this dam but you

20     hadn't gotten, I don't believe, any further.  You've got some blue arrows

21     on this.  What do those depict?

22        A.   These arrows depict the way the two survivors of the execution

23     that occurred on the dam -- depict the escape routes that UN later can

24     match with their testimony, so first crawling into this ditch, then

25     hitting the little wood which is on top of an elevation just in front,

Page 1003

 1     and then during the day of the 15th, they were crawling in order to hit a

 2     hill which is at the east of the dam.  East on this picture, being at the

 3     left.

 4        Q.   Let's go to the next -- your next photograph, 181.  Excuse me.

 5        A.   Yes, that's it.

 6        Q.   Yeah, 179.

 7        A.   So that's the same indication, but one cannot see any longer the

 8     little wood, but the blue line going to the left represents roughly the

 9     way they took, and then they continued on the line on top of this hill

10     until they could find their way, orienting themselves from the direction

11     of Zvornik, and then trying to go across the confrontation line.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 180.  We are now back to the water area.

13     What -- why have you put this photograph in?

14        A.   In fact, this one could have been erased from this presentation.

15     This one was used at a time of another trial in order to explain the

16     reason why some searchs, forensic searches that were done on this

17     peninsula were unsuccessful, because it was a dump of chemicals and the

18     forensic team had no means to continue to dig in such a chemical

19     environment.  But we will never know what is there or not.

20        Q.   Did you have some reason or any information from the

21     investigation that there may be bodies or evidence in that area?

22        A.   Yes, it could be, because during the day of the 15, the two

23     survivors could see that the loading of bodies that were scattering the

24     ground on the plateau of the dam were taken by a little wheeled platform

25     tracked by a tractor that could -- that took the direction that goes, in

Page 1004

 1     fact, up to the little dirt road that hits the peninsula.  They couldn't

 2     see where this little tractor was going, but the assumption therefore was

 3     that the initial burial place that had been selected was not on the dam,

 4     but elsewhere.

 5             So whatever the amount of bodies we would have found in a grave

 6     on that location would not account for the total of number killed.

 7     Therefore, we were looking for the very first burial spot used by the

 8     Bosnian Serb army in this location.  But again, because of this

 9     circumstances, this very first burial place was not found, but what we

10     know anyhow is that on the 15 and excavator came and opened a hole on the

11     plateau of this dam and buried the people who were still on the plateau.

12        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 181.  And do you remember who this is?

13        A.   Yes, for sure.  That was the first time we arrived on this dam.

14     So we did a very short collection on the surface, and among the items

15     which we could gather were all these bones.  And the person photographing

16     the bones is Professor Bill Haglund, Richard Haglund -- William Haglund,

17     sorry.  And he is the anthropologist who assessed what these bones were,

18     so human bones.

19        Q.   Now, you say your first short visit, can you explain very briefly

20     why you didn't stay longer?  Why it was a short visit?

21        A.   All the missions during 1996 were very short because the goal was

22     to go as soon as possible to locations that were already identified

23     between August 1995 and March 1996, and the goal was to hit as many of

24     them in a short period of time in order to have a first assessment of

25     these places without necessarily conducting a thorough search on all of

Page 1005

 1     them.

 2             As everyone knows, time runs against evidence.  And already a

 3     winter had passed.  We already had the, in bracket, "luck" to assess

 4     these crime scenes in such a time-frame, because the war was over.  And

 5     the goal was just to make sure that we were on the right place and then

 6     decide if we had to spark additional forensics and additional

 7     examinations on these sites.  It happened to be the case for all of them.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 182.  What is this?

 9        A.   So this is another short mission conducted in 1997, during summer

10     1997, or maybe April because we always started when -- as soon as April.

11     And this -- the goal of this mission was to check if there were some

12     human remains in the -- on this plateau of the dam, because technical

13     means, aerial means, did not implement the theory that there was a grave

14     there.  But on the surface, for example, this is a piece of a cloth

15     knotted looking like a ligature.

16        Q.   Let's go to 183.

17        A.   This is the same piece of cloth washed and put on concrete to

18     take a better picture of it.

19        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 184.

20        A.   So during that mission that I said, the goal was to check if on

21     the area that where we believed could be a grave was to dig.  The dig was

22     specifically difficult because it's very rocky terrain, but having dug a

23     hole approximately 1 metre of depth, we hit the first piece of evidence

24     which is marked by the yellow arrow.  It looks like a piece of a stone or

25     mud, but on the next picture it will be seen that it is, in fact, the top

Page 1006

 1     of a skull, a human skull.

 2        Q.   Okay.  185.

 3        A.   This is the same piece of evidence but washed at a water-pipe

 4     nearby.  And later on this photograph was shown to our anthropologist who

 5     asserts this is a human skull.

 6        Q.   Okay.  186.

 7        A.   This was also during the 1997 mission, another collection of

 8     pieces of bones on the surface of the dam where the anthropologist sorts

 9     out these bits and pieces into more anthropological data pieces coming

10     from various parts of human skulls.

11        Q.   Okay.  187.

12        A.   This is also part of a process we conducted on the plateau.  It

13     was to collect shell casings.  And this is the result of our three hour,

14     let's say, collection of shell casings on the plateau.  There are more

15     than 1.000 shell casings in these bags.  They are all in evidence.

16        Q.   Do you remember the calibre or calibres of the shell casings?

17        A.   Yes, 7.62 for, I think, more or less -- more or less all of them.

18        Q.   All right.  And 188.

19        A.   So this is a marking that I did on the plateau that indicates the

20     location where we found the shell casings.  And, I mean, the skull

21     fragments were in a more -- more restricted area -- the skull fragments

22     were in a more restricted area.  This is -- these are the limits where

23     most of the shell casings were found, and this is an indication of what

24     was the size of the terrain occupied by the dead bodies, the victims we

25     are talking about.

Page 1007

 1             The aspect of the skull fragments is of relevance because there

 2     is a statement saying that at one point soldiers complained against one

 3     of the shooters that he was aiming the victims at the head, and after a

 4     while, since it was spilling their brain, they were claiming that it was

 5     stinking, so they requested him to stop this.  So this is why the search

 6     for all these skull fragments was of interest also.  It was an

 7     implementation of what one of the survivors overheard.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now, I want to go back to your video collection, take

 9     us -- we'll go back to the school, the Grbavci school.  And the number

10     for that is 1138.  And, again, if need be, could you offer us any new

11     information or narrative.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can you turn off the sound.  I would just as soon

14     have Mr. Ruez be the narrator.  This sound is not relevant.

15             THE WITNESS:  It's what I tried to explain using pictures, but

16     now it's on videos.  So this is the entrance of the school that to the

17     right hand leads to the school building and to the left to the gym where

18     the prisoners, as far as we know about, were kept inside.  We don't know

19     if others were kept in the classrooms.  The survivors were all from the

20     gym.

21             So the right is the entrance towards the school building; the

22     left towards the gym.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   Do you recall when this video was shot?

25        A.   We did several in this location, so here I can recognise a

Page 1008

 1     colleague who was not with the first one, or maybe it was -- I don't

 2     remember, no.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4        A.   I think it was 1996.  I think it was the one of February 1996.

 5     But without the sound, I cannot say because the first one I remember

 6     because I was requesting my colleague to check if I was not hitting

 7     something dangerous, I mean, while I was filming.  And this one he is

 8     filming.  So this is either 1997 or 1998, I don't know.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10        A.   So that's -- at the left it's the entrance and here is the exit.

11     This is where the people were taken out after having been blindfolded and

12     had a sip of water.  And inside you can still find these pieces of cloth

13     that were not there the first -- the very first time, so I believe that

14     some children were playing with abandoned material around, like, also

15     there were a lot of shell casings and even live ammunition that I handed

16     over to the police at the time so that the children don't play with it

17     again.

18             So that's summer 1996.

19        Q.   Is there something that makes you now recollect that it's summer?

20        A.   Yes, because it's the day we went through this pile of rubbish.

21             Here we are starting to line up the material collected in this

22     little dump site, so shell casings.  But mainly the interesting material

23     in there is the blindfold, knowing that this school was used on a quite

24     regular basis by the army, so the shell casings are not necessarily

25     relevant to the events of that day, but the blindfolds, for sure they

Page 1009

 1     are.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now we have one other short.  We go out -- and that

 3     is number 1155.  And could you tell us, once you see this, where this is

 4     once we get going.

 5        A.   Grbavci school again.  So Orahovac area.  At the top of the

 6     picture, the direction to the execution site, one can clearly see the

 7     road line on it's elevation.  This is designed to show the distance

 8     between the sites, knowing that the prisoners inside the gym did not hear

 9     the shooting take place.  It's partially due to the distance, but mainly

10     because the elevation of the railroad makes a natural sound barrier.  So

11     that house did not exist at the -- in 1995.  It was starting to be built

12     in 1996.  So it's behind the road line.  And, again, we approach the

13     first execution site.

14             That's the terrain in the shape we found it when we arrived.

15     Very muddy.

16        Q.   So none of those ruts were done by any ICTY equipment?

17        A.   No, no.  These are the traces of the initial heavy equipment used

18     to create this site.  So the man with the yellow equipment is

19     Professor Bill Haglund, our anthropologist.  And this greenish mud is due

20     to the mixture of soil and human bodies that decomposed that created this

21     greenish mud.

22        Q.   What is this that they are digging around, if you recall or know?

23        A.   Probably a piece of a bone, the top of a bone that

24     Professor Haglund recognises as being a human bone.  The sound would tell

25     it because he probably explains.  That's a piece of cloth.  I don't know.

Page 1010

 1             That's the garbage dump site 200 metres away from the execution

 2     and burial site.  That's the asphalt road that can be seen behind the

 3     bushes.  The sound would be of interest because the person who is taking

 4     the video is counting the items and describing them.  Socks.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you tell us why there is no sound?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I just thought it would be easier because it's in

 7     English and it -- if the translators can translate it, sometimes they

 8     can, then it would be okay for the General, otherwise, it's -- there is,

 9     I believe, there's a transcript of this, but I'm not sure.  So let's --

10     why don't we try it with the sound, and if they can translate it, fine;

11     if they can't, we can either go with the sound or without the sound.

12             THE WITNESS:  It's a description of items and numbers.  So at

13     least for the blindfolds, it's of interest.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE WITNESS:  Now I am the one who is making the description.  I

16     recognise my accent.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   You haven't changed to a British accent now, have you?

19        A.   This is Peter Nicholson speaking.

20        Q.   All right.  Let's continue on in the presentation with page 189.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just to make the situation clear.  I think,

22     Mr. Tolimir, you received B/C/S translation of the sound, the words

23     spoken?  I could hear them in B/C/S, and it was translated also in

24     French, what we heard on the video.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge.

Page 1011

 1     I was able to hear the witness.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on, Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I perhaps should offer that video into

 4     evidence.  The two; one was 1138 and 1155 by our numbers.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Both will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  1138 will be Exhibit P86, and the next one will

 7     be Exhibit P87, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   So now we are at page 189, and you've got a yellow marking up by

11     the village of Rocevic.  And tell us about that.

12        A.   So that's the third identified detention centre used in the

13     so-called area north, a place called Rocevic.  It is again a school that

14     was used on 15 July and filled with another load of prisoners coming from

15     Bratunac that was still in the process of being emptied of all the

16     prisoners during the day of the 15.

17        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 190.

18        A.   That's a view of the school as it can be seen by zooming from the

19     asphalt road that leads from Zvornik towards, in fact, Banja Luka, I

20     mean, alongside of the Drina.

21        Q.   And 191.

22        A.   That's the same school, seen from the back.  So one can see that

23     it's a larger structure with classrooms and also a gym attending [sic] to

24     it.  We do not know what part of this building has been used to store the

25     prisoners.

Page 1012

 1        Q.   And let's -- Mr. Ruez, you are not familiar with all the various

 2     investigations that have occurred since 2001, are you?

 3        A.   No, I'm not, that's why I was cautious about my talking about

 4     only about my personal knowledge.

 5        Q.   All right.  Okay.  So let's go to 192 now.  And we have your map

 6     again, same yellow circle with Rocevic, and now a star near the

 7     Drina River.  What's this?

 8        A.   So the star marks the approximate placement of the execution site

 9     where these prisoners were taken to.  They had to be taken towards first

10     Kozluk and at Kozluk make a kind of U-turn in order to hit a little road

11     going alongside the Drina valley and reach a little remote location where

12     the execution site was located.

13        Q.   So you've talked about information received from a survivor of

14     the Luke school, the Kravica warehouse, the Orahovac and

15     Petkovci schools, and their associated execution sites.  Did you have a

16     survivor for this site that you are talking about near Kozluk?

17        A.   There is no survivor from this execution.  The information

18     related to this site, in fact, came from an information from a person who

19     was in a refugee centre in Germany and who was still in contact with some

20     relatives living in the area and who were able to provide enough

21     information in order for us to narrow down the place and finally find it.

22        Q.   Okay.  And let's go to 193 where you can explain what this is and

23     how you found it.  Just briefly.  Again, I don't want to put you through

24     the entire investigation.

25        A.   The main thing that enabled us, the final stage, to find it was

Page 1013

 1     to be able to narrow it down on a map and then to request through

 2     US State Department a survey of aerial imagery in order to even more

 3     narrow down the possibilities, and that's what led us to the site.

 4             This is seen from north to south; at the left is the

 5     Drina valley.  The school would be at the right-hand of the picture, but

 6     at a distance.  And Kozluk town is just in front.  So, in fact, one would

 7     first take the asphalt road, drive towards Kozluk, and then drive along a

 8     dirt road alongside of Drina River and hit this area of -- it was gravel

 9     pits.

10        Q.   When you were following up on this information you talked about

11     and you first arrived at this scene that you've marked execution site,

12     what did you find to indicate that it may have been an execution site?

13        A.   The following pictures should show what we found when we arrived

14     the first time.

15        Q.   Okay.  Well there is one; 194 is the next picture.

16        A.   Yeah.  So once in Kozluk and taking this little sharp turn in

17     order to hit the gravel road that leads towards the execution site, there

18     are two interesting structures.  The first one is a factory that

19     embottles bottles; it's the Vitinka factory.  This will be of interest

20     because as you will see on the site there are items that connect to this

21     factory.  And later on in secondary burial sites the same items will be

22     found and make the connection between the entire situation.  So that's

23     the first building one can hit is this Vitinka factory.

24        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 195.

25        A.   The second structure is a military compound.  It's the compound

Page 1014

 1     of the Drina Wolves.

 2        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 196.

 3        A.   So that's the imagery obtained by the US, from the US.  So at the

 4     left you can see the Drina River.  And on the picture dated 5 July, when

 5     compared with the one 17 July, it is obvious that on the 17 July there

 6     has been quite a dramatic change in the terrain in this area, with a lot

 7     of disturbed soil.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 197.

 9        A.   So seen from the ground on the area of the disturbance, one can

10     notice that there is quite a lot of amount of broken glass, bits and

11     pieces of broken glass, and also this part is a part of -- it's a shoe,

12     in fact, with a bone in it - another picture will show it

13     better - popping out of the ground.

14        Q.   Let's go to 198.

15        A.   So again, the shoe with a stocking and a bone inside.  And inside

16     the shovel is a shell casing and a sample of this broken glass that can

17     be found in many places in this area.

18        Q.   So was this what you found when you first arrived at the scene?

19        A.   Yes.  So the broken glass is in fact because these gravel pits

20     were also used as depots for broken bottles from the Vitinka factory, and

21     the same glass but also labels of bottles, labelled Vitinka, were later

22     on found in secondary mass graves.

23             In fact, the day before we went to this place, we were at a

24     secondary site where these labels were coming out, and this is what

25     sparked the decision to go as soon as possible to this last execution

Page 1015

 1     site that we had not processed yet, but it was at that point a certainty

 2     that this would be the spot.  And, indeed, all the forensics done after

 3     that confirmed the fact that the two sites were linked.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 199.

 5        A.   So here one can see a shell casing and broken glass.  The little

 6     yellow sticker is just there to mark the presence of the shell casing.

 7        Q.   And 200.

 8        A.   So, again, the green broken glass and also a piece of limb

 9     that -- one piece was sticking out of the ground so we just pulled a bit

10     on it and it appears to be human remains.  So we didn't continue further

11     excavation of this area.

12        Q.   Was this site later fully exhumed by the OTP?

13        A.   Yes, it was.

14        Q.   And was it found to be a disturbed or undisturbed site?

15        A.   It was an execution site on which many details are indeed

16     provided by the reports, and this site was then disturbed and more than

17     two-thirds of the bodies were removed from it and put in a place that we

18     named the Cancari valley.

19        Q.   All right.  And there will be others and more detailed evidence

20     on those matters.

21             So let's go to your next topic; it's at page 201.  And we see the

22     yellow mark over the village of -- well I can make out Branjevo.

23        A.   Pilica, Luke.  Luke school.

24        Q.   All right.  Then let's go to 202.  And where does this fit into

25     the story?

Page 1016

 1        A.   So, again, 15 July the evacuation of Bratunac was still not fully

 2     completed.  In fact, it completed that day.  Among the last ones to be

 3     shipped north was a large group of prisoners who were taken to this

 4     school, the school of a location named Kula close to Pilica and close to

 5     Branjevo.  So it's a quite large structure, two-storage [sic] building,

 6     and a big gym.

 7        Q.   Let's go to 203.

 8        A.   That's the view of -- one can see when he arrives at the school

 9     on the right side.

10        Q.   Do you recall any particular significance to that right side of

11     the school?

12        A.   Yes.  One prisoner who was inside and who the next day survived

13     the execution at the Branjevo farm was tasked to go and fetch some water

14     at the water-pipe, and it was night.  When he was on his way back, he saw

15     that one bus full of prisoners arrived at this location.  The people were

16     unloaded and shot on the spot at the -- just in front of this facade.  So

17     we, indeed, made also a few checks about this assertion.

18        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 204.

19        A.   That's the path that the prisoners took in order to then turn

20     right and enter the school and the gym.  The gym entrance.

21        Q.   And 205.

22        A.   So this is the entrance; it is also the exit of the school.  At

23     the exit, this is where the people were lined and for some of them

24     blindfolded before being taken on board of buses for alleged exchange of

25     prisoners and, in fact, brought to the Branjevo farm for execution.

Page 1017

 1        Q.   206.

 2        A.   So this overview shows the location of the water source where the

 3     survivor went in order to pick up water and bring back to the gym.

 4        Q.   207.

 5        A.   That's the water source.

 6        Q.   So did you yourself find these places after this person told you

 7     this story?

 8        A.   In fact, I used the indication of the testimony that we had of

 9     him in order to find the places and match them with the description we

10     had of it, and that's how we could find these locations --

11        Q.   Okay, 2 --

12        A.   -- following the path he had described when he gave his

13     testimony.

14        Q.   208.

15        A.   That's the angle of sight; the little arrow shows the angle of

16     sight from the exit point of, way back, of the water source and the

17     location he claimed having seen the people getting out of a bus and being

18     shot.  So, indeed, he had the possibility to have this angle of vision.

19        Q.   So we see the arrow-head on this arrow.  Is that where he is or

20     where the bus is or what?

21        A.   No, this is where -- the point of the arrow is on the gravel

22     road, and the rest of the arrow is his line of sight of people he said

23     had been shot were at the left of the trees, not the gravel road but at

24     the left of the trees on the grass, having the building at their back.

25        Q.   209.

Page 1018

 1        A.   And these are some traces that could still be seen on the facade

 2     and that could be connected with his testimony.

 3        Q.   210.

 4        A.   Holes on the facade of the school wall.

 5        Q.   211.

 6        A.   Holes that had been filled with concrete on the side of the wall.

 7        Q.   212.

 8        A.   Areas marked in red both on top of the picture and the picture at

 9     the bottom are the areas where we collected shell casings embedded in the

10     ground.  Which would match, indeed, the position of people who would

11     shoot on a group close to the facade; one on the front, one on the side.

12        Q.   All right.  Now, let's go to 213.

13        A.   Now, the red star is the approximate spot of the execution site

14     of the Branjevo farm which is the location from where the -- on 16 in the

15     morning before 10.00 the people who were inside the school of Luke were

16     taken on board of buses and taken to the Branjevo farm, which is a

17     military farm.

18        Q.   214.

19        A.   That's the aerial imagery of this farm, and it is dated

20     5th of July, so before the events.  At the top of the picture, the buses

21     were coming from the left and then entering the real estate of this farm.

22     I will be able to give more details.  It's a pigsty.  So the building top

23     right is a pigsty.  The long building just in front of the top right is

24     also a pigsty.  At the bottom left is the administration building.  And

25     completely at the left is a garage.  The garage was the site where the

Page 1019

 1     execution squad was waiting for the prisoners.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Why don't we, if we could, put this on e-court so

 3     that Mr. Ruez can mark this.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I think we have an aerial marked in yellow --

 5        Q.   Actually, the --

 6        A.   -- with all of it on it.

 7        Q.   That's absolutely correct.  So let's -- we'll just take advantage

 8     of that.  Let's go to the next one, 215.

 9        A.   That's a picture taken from the ground, which gives the angle of

10     site of someone arriving at the farm.  So that's the access path we saw

11     on the previous picture.  Now the pigsty is on the left; the admin

12     building is the one on the middle; the garage, a bit on the right; and a

13     very large field to the right, which is the execution field.  This is

14     where the Black Hawk helicopter has landed.  It's behind the helicopter.

15        Q.   And did you come in that Black Hawk?

16        A.   I went in by car, by helicopter; I went several times there to

17     the Branjevo farm.

18        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 216.

19        A.   That's a helicopter view of the farm.  That is a perfect

20     indication of the size of the terrain at the right.  One can perfectly

21     see the gravel road that, from the right, is coming, in fact, from the

22     direction of the school, then turning right towards the Branjevo farm was

23     the area where the bus were stopped, as witnesses will say, from the

24     windows they could see what was happening because it was not happening at

25     a very long distance since the people had to walk towards the garage,

Page 1020

 1     which is the little structure to the right, extreme right of the picture,

 2     right of the farm.  And then they started to shoot them from there.  And

 3     then the people had to continue to walk over the bodies until they could

 4     find the tree line.  And this was continuing like this towards the right

 5     side of the picture.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I think it would be helpful if we could put this one on

 7     e-court.  And if you could just mark this area where the survivors told

 8     you the executions were going on.

 9        A.   So the buses were coming like this.  Then they were parking here.

10     Sometimes there were several.  People then had to walk like this.  Here

11     was the location where the execution squad was having his, in brackets,

12     "rest place."  And then the people had to line up in rows.  It was -- the

13     process was continuing like this.

14        Q.   All right.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would offer this into evidence.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, that will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P88, Your Honour.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   And if we can go to 217 now.

20        A.   So this is the view one has when arriving at the garage I was

21     just describing.  And so that's the starting point of the execution site.

22        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 218.

23        A.   That's the -- that's the execution field as it was the first time

24     we approached it.  And we did a quick check on the site.  It was the

25     first approach; I think it was in March 1996.  And it was two hours on

Page 1021

 1     the spot and only with a drawing of an aerial imagery that was of

 2     assistance to find the place, so it took a little while.

 3        Q.   Now, can you tell from being there, was this churned up soil, did

 4     this appear to be from agricultural or from the kind of churned up soil

 5     you had seen at Orahovac?

 6        A.   It's hard to say because it's agricultural ground.  It had been

 7     moved upside-down when we really came to process the area.  But, indeed,

 8     yes, we know that the place had been also turned upside-down at the time

 9     on 17 July where the bodies were cleaned off the ground to be buried in a

10     mass grave just very close by of this picture.

11        Q.   So -- but was there a cornfield planted there at around the times

12     that you visited after, you know, after this incident, at various times?

13        A.   No, it stayed more or less after that abandoned terrain.  And now

14     it's a settlement of housing.  This place does not exist any longer.

15        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 26.

16        A.   So among the items we could see the first time we arrived was,

17     for example, a -- one shoe in the bushes.

18        Q.   220.

19        A.   Human bones, a piece of hip and a rib and another bone.

20        Q.   221.

21        A.   That was a human skull.

22        Q.   222.

23        A.   So this picture dated 17 July, the interest of it -- well, there

24     are two interests.  One is that we don't show it, maybe you will have to,

25     is the US markings that are on a similar picture with a closer shot, that

Page 1022

 1     indicates that many of the dots seen on the picture are labelled by the

 2     US as being bodies.

 3        Q.   When you say dots, where are the dots that you are talking about?

 4        A.   That's not the same one that I saw on the right screen.  Yeah,

 5     now it's this one.  In between the two lines, the two yellow lines on the

 6     right.  But the two yellow lines are there to show that when we came

 7     there in order to do a shell casing collection on the surface, that might

 8     have been in 1997, indeed the field had already been plundered.  So the

 9     number of shell casings on the surface we found was relatively limited.

10     I cannot remember exactly how many.  But what was interesting was the

11     repartition of them on the ground since, in fact, we started to find them

12     very shortly after the garage, so matching the beginning of the execution

13     field and all along -- all along this field on quite a long distance

14     close to 200 metres long.

15        Q.   I think when you said the field when you got there had already

16     been plundered, you may have meant ploughed?

17        A.   Ploughed, sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah.

18        Q.   Okay.  And this area where we see some sorts of dots or something

19     between the yellow lines, is this anywhere near the area that you just

20     marked on the map where the people told you the executions happened?

21        A.   It's both the location where the people said the execution

22     happened, but also it's the location where we found the items seen on the

23     previous pictures; the shoes, the skull, the bones.

24        Q.   And aside from the survivor evidence that you are talking about,

25     did you have any shooter evidence; anybody that took part in the shooting

Page 1023

 1     that corroborated that same information?

 2        A.   Sure.  All this is also part of the testimony of

 3     Drazden Erdemovic.  Most of it is part of the testimony of Erdemovic.

 4     The fact that the garage was the rest place for the execution squad of a

 5     10 Sabotage Detachment and their colleagues from the Bratunac Brigade is

 6     coming from Drazden Erdemovic.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  And that will be a witness you will hear

 8     from, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   And if we could go to 223.  I think this is what you referred --

10     reminded me of.

11        A.   Yes and no, because in yellow are my markings, but the fact is

12     that my markings on this one reproduce the US markings.  So maybe taking

13     the original US into evidence would be something to be done later.  But

14     when I write on the yellow -- orange line "bodies," the line with the

15     "bodies," this is what was written on the US imagery.  Also, the label

16     "piles of earth" is on the original US imagery.  The label "probable

17     bodies" put in a pile close to the location where an excavator is digging

18     and where we found the location of the primary mass grave, all this were

19     markings on the initial US imagery.

20        Q.   But just to reiterate, you are not certainly relying totally on

21     the US imagery for this information, but other parts of the investigation

22     and fieldwork?

23        A.   Absolutely.  The goal is also to check on the ground the

24     assertions put on official pictures.  And as you will see on another

25     picture, the location where the excavator is digging, so most probably

Page 1024

 1     creating a grave, there were even also surface remains at that location.

 2     And then for sure subsequently the exhumation, full exhumation, conducted

 3     on this spot fully confirms what can be seen on this aerial imagery.

 4        Q.   All right.  And that will be the subject of other witnesses,

 5     other reports.

 6             All right.  Let's go now to 224.  We have imagery dated

 7     21 September and 5 July.  What's the purpose of this?

 8        A.   So the purpose of this one is, if you check the ground at the

 9     beginning of the yellow arrow starting with the picture right-hand

10     5th July, terrain is undisturbed; and if you compare it with the one of

11     21 September, there is a clear disturbance.  And this is the spot where

12     we started to check both for surface evidence and then sparked an

13     exhumation process.

14        Q.   Was that -- was there a grave found to be there where that yellow

15     arrow-head is?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And was it determined to be disturbed or undisturbed?

18        A.   Following pictures will show it more clearly, but, yes, it was

19     disturbed.

20        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 225.

21        A.   This is a picture taken just at the edge of the area of disturbed

22     soil.  It's human remains.  One can see it's part of the bottom of a

23     spine on the picture.  That had been pushed just in the bushes by the

24     excavator who buried the people.

25        Q.   All right.  We now have your videos of first Kozluk and then

Page 1025

 1     Branjevo.

 2        A.   I know there are a few, two or three, I think, following this

 3     one.

 4        Q.   We get to -- we'll get to the Pilica Dom right after this.

 5        A.   Yeah.

 6        Q.   And Kozluk is 1195.  And we'll start with that short clip.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I guess we can have sound, if there is any.

 9     And thank you for trying to interpret.  We appreciate that.

10             THE WITNESS:  It's a video of the first arrival at the Kozluk

11     site.  So broken glass.  Human remains, bones.  In fact, it's a leg with

12     some cloth around it.  The shoe with the sock and a bone in it.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   There's no sound on this, so thank you for narrating.

15        A.   That's another shoe, I think.  It's fuzzy.  A big pile of broken

16     glass.  This is investigator Jan Kryszewski looking for shell casings

17     alongside of the dirt road that is just next to the area where the human

18     remains are popping out of the soil, so it's a shell casing found.

19     Another shell casing.  Shell casing again.  That's the shovel we saw, a

20     better quality picture we see it on video.

21             That's a very short excavation we started.  And we realised that

22     in fact it was a very, very shallow grave.  And just by pulling out some

23     elements, in fact, we are beginning an exhumation, so the place was worth

24     being fully exhumed.  Approximate number of people killed on this spot is

25     around 500.  And the location is on the spot of a former Muslim cemetery

Page 1026

 1     that has been destroyed.

 2             These are labels from the embottlement factory.  We found exactly

 3     the same labels in three secondary mass graves.  This is why we can know

 4     the precise number of people killed there by adding those who were found

 5     in the primary grave and adding the numbers of those found in the

 6     secondary ones.  That's why the total number reaches close to 500.

 7        Q.   And, at your time, you didn't -- all the graves had not been

 8     exhumed yet, so would you be open for the possibility of those numbers

 9     changing?

10        A.   Yes, though the three secondary graves for Kozluk, we already

11     know them.

12        Q.   Where is -- we've now switched from the grave to some place else.

13     Where is this still now?

14        A.   Yes, I think this is when we are driving back and passing by the

15     Drina Wolves barracks, if I'm not wrong.  Yes.  I got out of the car and

16     was filming the passing by.

17        Q.   Just to be clear, do you associate the Drina Wolves in any way

18     with any of these executions?

19        A.   No, I don't, because I can't.  I can only observe that their

20     barracks are extremely close by, but we have no -- as far as I know, no

21     admittance, no hard evidence, and nothing that connects them to the

22     killing on that spot.

23        Q.   That remains the case today.

24        A.   This is the embottlement factory.

25        Q.   What you have referred to as the Vitinka bottle factory?

Page 1027

 1        A.   Yes, and that's the patch of the Drina Wolves.  That's the

 2     exhumation -- the beginning of the exhumation at Kozluk, 1999.

 3        Q.   And done by who?

 4        A.   Richard Haglund was the head archaeologist on this.

 5        Q.   Richard ...

 6        A.   Richard Wright.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8        A.   Sorry.

 9        Q.   Now, I believe we have a video of Branjevo.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I'd offer that last one into evidence.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That was 1195, our number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P89, Your Honour.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And now we have our number 1232 of Branjevo and

15     related material.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17        Q.   Do you remember when you were flying over Branjevo, what year

18     that was?

19        A.   I flew twice, but this was probably again in the preparation of

20     the trial of General Krstic, so in 1998, I would think.  So, yeah, okay.

21     This was -- the goal of this one is to show the distance between the

22     Branjevo farm and the village of Pilica, that is along the asphalt road

23     going on this natural road from Zvornik towards Banja Luka and Janja and

24     going north toward Banja Luka.

25             Now, in fact, this one is first from the school to the farm, so

Page 1028

 1     that's the way from the school to the farm.

 2             That's the farm.  That's the large field.  Here at the angle is

 3     the mass grave.  That's the structure.  So the farm abandoned at that

 4     time.  The grave.

 5        Q.   I've just frozen it there.  Can you orient us to what you've

 6     previously described?  You can't mark on this, unfortunately, with a

 7     video, but I think that there's some things that we hopefully will

 8     remember.

 9        A.   Yes, we -- one can see the garage at the right of the picture,

10     the white rectangle, that is the garage.  So at the top of it is the

11     tree, and then if you take a straight line to the left, there is -- one

12     can see a separation.  So from the tree to the left it's the area of the

13     execution field.

14        Q.   Okay.  And there's something growing there now.  Do you remember

15     what?

16        A.   I remember something was growing, but I don't know what it was.

17     I'm not a botanist, I repeat.

18        Q.   All right, let's just continue then.

19        A.   Most probably corn.

20             So that's the access path to the farm with, again, at the right,

21     the two pigsties, at the bottom left the admin building, and above the

22     admin building one can see the garage.  Again here there is a lot of

23     things growing on the area, which again shows that time runs against

24     evidence.  Had we had to mow this huge field in order to find a few shell

25     casings, it would still be in process.

Page 1029

 1        Q.   And where did the buses bringing the prisoners park?

 2        A.   Just along this access path.  Sometimes there were a few buses

 3     jamming there, so the passengers in -- I mean, the witnesses will better

 4     talk about this than I would do, but it would see everything.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Let's continue then.

 6        A.   And that's the bottom.  One could see the asphalt road going

 7     to -- from Zvornik north to Janja.  So that was the second -- one was in

 8     March but very, very short, and this one was in April 1996.

 9     Peter Nicholson is talking and filming.  These are press people.  That's

10     the area where the mass grave was supposed to be and where we made the

11     first and the second quick observations on the ground.  That's the body

12     parts that was at the edge of this grave.

13             Third mission to the farm.  Oh, it was more than third.  So that

14     is the execution area.  That's where the people were arriving.  And

15     starting at the tree, execution field began.  That's the day we were

16     looking for the shell casings on the surface.

17        Q.   What are these things?

18        A.   Shell casings.

19        Q.   Okay.  Is that the field that's now full of houses?

20        A.   Absolutely.  The place would be unrecognisable.

21             We were looking for a bridge one of the survivors talked about.

22     It's a bridge after he crawled away from the crime scene.  He hid under a

23     bridge where there were destroyed vehicles.  So we were looking around

24     also to try to identify a location that could match his declarations, and

25     this is indeed the location he was hiding under, at least that perfectly

Page 1030

 1     matched his description.

 2        Q.   Any destroyed vehicle?

 3        A.   Yes, several.  And we brought him back, anyhow, to that site, and

 4     he recognised the locations.

 5        Q.   I don't see Humvees anymore.  Can you tell us what troops are

 6     providing the security for you now?

 7        A.   Russian troops were securing our missions at the north of this

 8     area.

 9        Q.   And who were driving the Humvees that we saw in the

10     Konjevic Polje area?

11        A.   American forces.  It's -- the multi-national division north had

12     control on the area that includes the crime scene, south being on the

13     American sector, and north being the Russian sector.

14        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Okay, let's go to the next chapter.  It's 226.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we'll offer that clip into evidence.  It's

16     1232, our number.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P90, Your Honour.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   So this time we see --

21        A.   Branjevo we already dealt with.  Next one will be Pilica.

22        Q.   Okay.  So let's go to 227.  What does this have to do with the

23     investigation?

24        A.   So following the events at the Branjevo farm that took place from

25     10.00 in the morning through approximately 3.00 in the afternoon, the

Page 1031

 1     order was given to the executioners of that place to move towards a

 2     location nearby where allegedly 500 people were stored into a Dom of

 3     culture, a cultural house, and had to be killed.  So the squads moved

 4     towards this location.

 5        Q.   And where did you get that information?

 6        A.   This information is coming purely from the Drazen Erdemovic.  We

 7     have no survivor of that spot.  Without his declarations on this crime

 8     scene, we would never had received any info about this location and the

 9     events that took place there.

10        Q.   Okay.  And so did you go there and check this out?

11        A.   Yes, we did.

12        Q.   And so what is this picture we are looking at?

13        A.   So on this picture, since according his declaration, the group he

14     was with, the 10 Sabotage Detachment guys did not take place in these

15     specific killings; they were in a cafe just in front of the Dom of

16     culture.  So, indeed, there is a cafe just in front, and the next arrow

17     shows the location of the Dom of culture.  He was witnessing the events

18     from the cafe across the road.

19        Q.   All right.  And let's go to 228.

20        A.   So that's a front view of this house of culture.  So, in fact,

21     this is the admin building; it's kind of a little town hall.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can I interrupt you shortly.  The Judge Nyambe

23     has a question.

24             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes, could you just go back to the previous

25     picture.  Yes.  I have a question for the witness.

Page 1032

 1             In this picture, you are showing the Dom Kulture as a place of

 2     execution; right?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE NYAMBE:  And what are those other houses around this place

 5     in this picture?

 6             THE WITNESS:  They took care selecting, going from south to

 7     north, locations which are at a distance of housings.  But since all the

 8     available facilities, the Grbavci school, the Rocevic School, the

 9     Luke school, all these places were full, the last prisoners that had to

10     be taken north were taken to this place which is at 100 metres away from

11     the border between the Drina Corps and the corps which was just north.

12     And they never did anything in the area of responsibility of anyone else.

13     So the last location was this one.  And all around, indeed, you are in

14     the middle of a village.

15             So the Grbavci school, there are also a few houses around.  It's

16     a very tiny village.  This one is a bigger village.  So all these places

17     were, indeed -- there were citizens there.

18             JUDGE NYAMBE:  At the time?

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

20             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   And this road we're looking at, how significant is this road as a

23     route from north to south or south to north?

24        A.   It's the only main route that leads from north to south of the

25     Republika Srpska along the Drina Valley.  It's the main road going north

Page 1033

 1     to south.

 2        Q.   All right.  Let's, okay then, go back to 228.  I think you may

 3     have been almost done.  Anything else?

 4        A.   It's the view from the front.  Seen from the road, this is the

 5     view of this Dom of culture.  At the time, because it's totally changed

 6     also since then.

 7        Q.   All right.  Let's go to one more picture before the break,

 8     it's 229.

 9        A.   That's a view of the cafe where the guys from the

10     10 Sabotage Detachment were looking at the events, meanwhile having

11     drinks.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  This may be a good time to take a break,

13     Mr. President.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Very well.  We'll have a break now for 30 minutes

15     and resume at a quarter past 4.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

20        Q.   We were at -- we had a picture of the cafe across the street from

21     the cultural centre.  Now, let's go to 230, your next series of shots.

22     There's the -- that was 229.  Let's -- now we are at 230.  What is this?

23        A.   This is a photograph taken from the inside of a cafe towards the

24     house of culture of Pilica.  So one can see that there is, in fact, a

25     little metal structure, little construction, that hides the view, the

Page 1034

 1     direct view, on the exit of the area that was used as the execution spot.

 2     But as the witness said, he could still see things that he will probably

 3     talk about, people managing to get out and being shot in the street, and

 4     so on.

 5        Q.   Indeed.  Okay.  Let's go to 231.

 6        A.   So this is a side view when approaching this Dom of culture.  The

 7     theatre part of it is on the right side of this building.  The entrance

 8     door being the blue one at the right of the building.

 9        Q.   Okay.  232.

10        A.   These are two access to the place.  The metal door at the right

11     is the entrance to this theatre area.  The blue door, wooden, at the left

12     gets to a staircase that accesses to the cabin of projector, the person

13     who was playing films, if this, in bracket, "theatre" was used as a movie

14     place.

15        Q.   Okay.  233.

16        A.   This picture is to show that when we arrived to this spot the

17     door had been closed with a "cadenas."  And obviously this "cadenas" had

18     not been removed since the cleanup of the place since there are spider

19     nests in between the two openings.

20        Q.   Do you recall when you first got there?

21        A.   This was in 1996, end of 1996.  I would think August maybe.

22     Mid -- I don't remember when.

23        Q.   Okay.

24        A.   We opened this "cadenas."

25        Q.   And that's with the padlock, in English.  I think you are talking

Page 1035

 1     about the lock?

 2        A.   Sorry, padlock.  The lock, yes.  Padlock.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 234.  What is this?

 4        A.   This is a view of an inside of a theatre seen from the location

 5     where there are little openings that enable the camera to project the

 6     film, and this was the -- most certainly the first area where the

 7     shooting started, since after the shooting had started from this

 8     location, only then did soldiers enter through the main door and continue

 9     the killing inside.

10        Q.   Let's go to 235.

11        A.   So indeed it's August 1996, so this is a sample collection, the

12     first sample collection that we did on the walls of the -- inside the

13     theatre.

14        Q.   236.

15        A.   This is an example of the type of the stains that were on the

16     walls.  In this specific case, it's human blood and hair and pieces of

17     skin.

18        Q.   237.

19        A.   Same type of picture, blood-stain and bullet-holes.

20        Q.   238.

21        A.   That's the back of the theatre when climbing on the stage, a very

22     characteristic blood-stain in that location.

23        Q.   239.

24        A.   So this is the wall totally at the back of the stage, since the

25     killers shooting from the top and also those entering the main door.  The

Page 1036

 1     people apparently took refuge in this last shelter area where grenades

 2     were thrown, even underneath the wooden structure, because people were

 3     probably hiding underneath, so these are traces that have been analysed

 4     as being explosive traces and also blood traces.

 5        Q.   When you say explosive traces, what colour are we looking at of

 6     those traces in this?

 7        A.   The black ones are explosive residues and the stains are

 8     blood-stains.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 240.  What's this?

10        A.   This is an aerial imagery where indeed originally my markings in

11     yellow where the truck was marked but the traces of the rear door; I

12     marked the rear door.  The 17 July is the day that followed this

13     execution and is the day of cleanup of this execution site.  At the

14     location of the truck which is right at the main entrance of the

15     building, we didn't collect them but there were a few remains, like

16     rubber gloves.  That's the cleanup.

17             One survivor, who -- the one who was hiding under the bridge,

18     also that day get out of this location and was along the asphalt road and

19     he saw a truck going direction south which is the direction of Branjevo

20     farm with a body full of remains with even some blood spilling out of it.

21     So that was probably a truck coming from the location of Pilica.

22             The bodies of those killed in Pilica have been transported for

23     burial, the 17 at the Branjevo farm.  So the burial at the Branjevo farm

24     is both the burial of the victims killed at the Branjevo farm and at the

25     Pilica Dom.

Page 1037

 1        Q.   Now, you mark in yellow, you say "traces;" what are you pointing

 2     at there?

 3        A.   Since these traces are going also to the back of the building,

 4     one can assume that the cleaning of the place was done by both sides, the

 5     main entrance and also the rear door.

 6        Q.   So, in your view, what were those traces made by?

 7        A.   By a truck.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 241.  What does this tell us?

 9        A.   This shows the direction that goes from the Dom towards the

10     Branjevo farm, which is very close by.

11        Q.   Okay.  Now you've -- we have another video of about 10 minutes of

12     this Dom of culture which we will play.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14        A.   This is our first arrival at the ...

15             The office of the mayor was at the first floor, and there was

16     also a civilian communication centre inside.

17        Q.   So is this your very first arrival?

18        A.   This is the very first one, because initially, according to the

19     first statement we had, but we didn't took by ourselves, of

20     Drazen Erdemovic, we were first looking for this location but in Janja,

21     so some 40 or 50 kilometres more north.  That was the cafe just across

22     the road.  The inside.  One wall had been sealed after the events.  There

23     was an access to the theatre that has been blocked.  But someone did an

24     opening top-right so one can peep into it.  That's the little

25     communication centre.  That's the sealed door, fresh concrete.  That's

Page 1038

 1     what one could see peering through this little hole.  And just in the

 2     vicinity, indeed housings.

 3             That's from the openings of the projectionist cabin.  Though the

 4     place had been cleaned, there were still a number of shell casings on the

 5     stairs going up to this location, this cabin.  The main door at the

 6     bottom right.  That's the projectionist cabin, and this is the stairs

 7     going down.  Here in the corner, the broomer forgot a shell casing.  Some

 8     more shell casings on the stairs.

 9             That's the environment of the place.  The Russian escort.  The

10     cafe.  A rubber glove just in front of the entrance.  Now we open the

11     door.  That's the holes from the projectionist cabin.

12        Q.   So is this still that first time when you -- this is the first

13     time you walked in there?

14        A.   This is the very first time, yeah.  I was on the left, John Gerns

15     is in front, and Peter Nicholson is filming.

16        Q.   Do you remember what month this was, what year?

17        A.   I think at the beginning of the tape it was August 1996.

18        Q.   How many people did Mr. Erdemovic estimate were in here?

19        A.   They were told by the lieutenant-colonel who ordered them to go

20     to this location, he said that there were 500 prisoners inside.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you stop at that point for a moment.  A

22     question from Judge Mindua.

23             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, just a question, Witness.

24     The film we've just seen, this is when you arrived in August 1996?

25             THE WITNESS:  That's correct.

Page 1039

 1             JUDGE MINDUA: [No interpretation]

 2             THE WITNESS:  Absolutely.  I even returned for, in bracket,

 3     "private means" in that location in, it was, I think, in 2003, and the

 4     place was in exactly in the same shape.  Any forensic expert could have

 5     returned there and collect hundreds of samples.

 6             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The question of Judge Mindua was not interpreted.

 8     Mr. Tolimir, did you receive interpretation of this question?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge.

10     The question was interpreted to me.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Another question by

12     Judge Nyambe.

13             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Actually, it's a follow-up question to --

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am advised that it needs to be repeated because

16     the question is not on the transcript because it was not translated into

17     English.  We were all on the French channel for that moment.  Could you

18     please repeat your question.

19             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I shall repeat my question.  The

20     witness said that he arrived at Pilica in August 1996 for the first time.

21     And my question was, therefore, to know whether at that time on the walls

22     of the Kulture Dom it was possible to see blood-stains, pieces of skin,

23     hair, and so on.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you want to add something?

25             THE WITNESS:  No.  My answer to that was that, yes, absolutely.

Page 1040

 1     As I had exposed also this place had been sealed off after the cleanup

 2     process of it, so then it was untouched.  Proof of it is the locker and

 3     the spider nests in between the doors.  And, in addition to that, these

 4     places have been untouched for years, and I did happen to return there, I

 5     think, in 2003, it might have been 2002, but the same -- exactly the same

 6     things were inside.  And they said any forensic expert who had gone there

 7     even in 2002 or 2003 would have collected hundreds of blood-stains.

 8             The situation is the same in the Kravica warehouse.  The place

 9     has never been fully cleaned.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Now we have the situation clear on

11     the record.

12             Judge Nyambe.

13             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes.  If you go back to page 35, line 16, you

14     state there that this is our first arrival at ... "The office of the

15     mayor was at the first floor."  Was the office of the mayor on the first

16     floor of this building in which the executions took place?

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  That's what we were told upon arrival when we

18     were asking, you know, what is this place.  First thing was, Oh, it's the

19     office of the mayor upstairs, and here it's telecommunication, civilian

20     telecommunication centre.  And do you know if anything happened there?

21     For sure the answer was, We don't understand why you are here; nothing

22     ever happened here.  And one hour later, everyone had vanished before we

23     opened the door.

24             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on, Mr. McCloskey, with the film.

Page 1041

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE WITNESS:  These are a few items we did find during this first

 3     check.  This was the cover of a licna karta, I think.  Brown.  The shell

 4     casing.  I mean, the shell casings were mainly to be found in the corners

 5     due to the brooming of the place, but it was done very roughly.  Some ID

 6     pieces with one with a legible name on it.  That person appeared on the

 7     missing list of the ICRC as missing from Srebrenica.  This one.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

 9        Q.   Let's go to your next chapter.  It starts at page 242.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  But let me offer that into evidence.  It's our

11     number 1256.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P91, Your Honour.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   Just -- we see this diagram, crime scenes area north, and you've

16     marked the places that we've just talked about.  What's the purpose of

17     this?

18        A.   So this is, in fact, a summary of the main spots of the so-called

19     area north, so in yellow the places that had been selected for the

20     detention of the prisoners, and the red stars spotting the execution

21     sites of these prisoners.  Knowing that this is not extremely accurate,

22     it's a graphic to indicate the main locations and how they fit together.

23        Q.   Okay.  243.

24        A.   Same type of map.  It's the situation at 17 July, so the day

25     where the exhumation process is finalised.  Executions being finished the

Page 1042

 1     16, burial totally finished the 17.  So on 17 July 1995, this is the

 2     status of the known situation regarding mass graves.  Those we went

 3     through, area north and also area south with one that we had not

 4     discussed yet, which is the main one in the area south, that is, Glogova.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 244.  Now we are getting into a series of

 6     these aerial imagery.  And what's the purposes of this section?

 7        A.   So as the exhumation process made us realise at the end of

 8     summer 1996, in the main places that we could exhume during that summer,

 9     we realised that indeed it was a massive burial places, but that these

10     mass graves had been emptied of part of their content and we didn't know

11     how much of their content.  Was it half?  Was it 80 per cent?  We had no

12     idea.

13             So checking the situation with aerial imagery, we could sort out

14     that indeed these places had been subject to a further disturbance.  So

15     this is Orahovac, the execution site close to Grbavci school.  On the

16     picture at the left, one can see the scale of the disturbance dated the

17     7 September, so after the primary burial.  And then one can see that on

18     27 September the situation is clearly very different.  So this place has

19     again been turned upside-down and looks differently now.

20        Q.   Okay.  That's one of the sites that you spoke of at the Orahovac.

21     Let's go to 245.  What's this?

22        A.   So, again, it's exactly the same.  This is the site LZ-1 where,

23     on 7 September, we can see the shape of the disturbance.  And on

24     27 September 1995, less than one month later, the disturbance has

25     completely changed.  So it has been redisturbed again.

Page 1043

 1        Q.   And are these disturbances the detailed subject of the forensic

 2     archaeologist and anthropology reports that go along with this

 3     investigation?

 4        A.   Sure.  Everything about it is in the reports of the specialists.

 5        Q.   All right.  So, again, you're not relying on these -- purely

 6     these aerial imageries for these conclusions?

 7        A.   No, not at all.  It's complementary.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 246.  We are now back to the Petkovci dam, I

 9     see.

10        A.   Yes.  So the disturbance, anyhow, was so small that it could not

11     be spotted before checking the disturbance.  This is why the primary

12     assumption was that there was no mass grave on this plateau because

13     aerial imagery could not show obvious disturbance.  But knowing that

14     indeed there was a mass grave there because we found the elements, then

15     by comparing the photograph dated 7 September with then and obvious

16     disturbance 27 September, we could also figure out that this location had

17     also been disturbed, which was then later on confirmed once the full

18     exhumation of this area took place.

19        Q.   Okay.  247, we go on to Kozluk.

20        A.   So, again, exactly the same situation.  The shape of the terrain,

21     7 September, after the burial of the victims had taken place there, and

22     on the 27 September, a much larger disturbance indicating that additional

23     work had been done between the 7 September and end of September 1995.

24        Q.   And 248.

25        A.   So this one is even more clear because this is an aerial from

Page 1044

 1     Branjevo farm dated 27 September where these markings are US markings.

 2     One can see, exactly at the location where the mass grave was located, a

 3     newly excavated trench that did not exist after the burial process, so

 4     after the 17 of July.  And imagery analysts would say that indeed inside

 5     the farm there is still a backhoe and a front loader.  By looking at the

 6     original picture, indeed one can see them.

 7        Q.   249.

 8        A.   So this is a picture that was taken at the end of the exhumation

 9     of Branjevo farm, so at the end of the summer 1996.  This is the full

10     size of the initial mass grave site.  And where the three persons are

11     standing, it's the only spot inside this grave where bodies could be

12     found.  All the rest had been taken out of this large hole.

13        Q.   And if we go back to the last photograph, 248.  Is this that hole

14     that we just saw anywhere near --

15        A.   This hole is at the location where it is now written "newly

16     excavated trench."

17        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 250.

18        A.   So this picture is the picture of the bodies that were found

19     during the exhumation of the Branjevo farm.  So the only bodies left in

20     the larger hole we saw previously is this stack of body.  I think the

21     total number in the exhumation report is something like 110.

22        Q.   All right.  Now, you mentioned the one grave that we hadn't spent

23     a chapter on was Glogova.  We're coming to some pictures.  Could you just

24     again, very briefly, tell us the story where Glogova is and how it fit

25     into the investigation?

Page 1045

 1        A.   Glogova is in a location in between Kravica and Bratunac, going

 2     from Kravica towards Bratunac.  And Glogova ended up to be -- I mean,

 3     after having started the cleaning process of Kravica warehouse, the first

 4     bodies were taken to a remote location not far away from the asphalt road

 5     on a -- and dumped alongside of a slope on a hill and covered with soil.

 6     But they only did that with a few trucks.  Later, the decision was made

 7     to open a disposal place at Glogova.  And Glogova became the spot where

 8     they dumped all the bodies of those killed at the Kravica warehouse.  But

 9     unfortunately not only that - and this is why we will never have a

10     hundred per cent certainty of the number of killed at Kravica by counting

11     these bodies - the fact is that Glogova was also used to bury in graves

12     all the bodies killed in Bratunac town, and there were a certain number

13     of them, but also the place where they did put the bodies of people

14     killed alongside of the asphalt road.  So the burial site of Glogova, the

15     bodies have multiple origins.  It's a mixture of several origins that

16     make it impossible to determine from where these people are coming from.

17        Q.   And you mention some bodies along the asphalt road.  Can you

18     exclude the possibility that some of those people were killed in combat

19     trying to cross the road?

20        A.   No one can ever exclude someone willing to commit suicide, but as

21     soon as someone reaches the asphalt road, he is there to surrender, as a

22     logical point.  So if he gets killed there, it means that something has

23     happened.  But I have no explanation about it.

24        Q.   Okay.  All right.  So let's go to our first photograph of

25     Glogova.  It's 251.  And this is dated well after the events of Kravica

Page 1046

 1     of 13 July.  It's dated October.  What's the purpose of this?

 2        A.   The purpose of this one is this is a shot that indeed indicates

 3     even the date during which this disturbance of Glogova takes place, since

 4     Glogova is split in two areas of graves.  It's not one mass grave; it's

 5     several graves at the right and a few others at the left.  And on

 6     30 October, there is a front loader busy exhuming one part of the Glogova

 7     graves.  It can be seen on the picture.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let's go now to 252.  What is this illustration?

 9        A.   This is also a visual of the sites area south, the red arrows are

10     the mass graves that have not been disturbed.  At the right of Kravica,

11     the little red star is the site along this edge of the little hill that

12     has not been disturbed.  But the two main sites of this area which are at

13     Glogova have been wiped out of most of their content.  And the bodies,

14     the yellow arrow shows the direction, in fact, they were transported at

15     the opposite side of the Srebrenica safe area, completely south of the

16     enclave.

17        Q.   Let's go to 253.

18        A.   So this picture is in the direction looking east, so the enclave

19     is at the left of the picture.  And this aerial photograph spots, in

20     fact, the location where the six secondary graves are located.

21        Q.   And how did you find those secondary graves?

22        A.   Initially we had a human source that enabled us to spot two of

23     these sites.  And subsequently having checked that indeed there were

24     multiple remains in them, we insisted on additional searches for aerial

25     imagery.  And this is how we came up with imagery analysis that enabled

Page 1047

 1     to find six of them.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 254.

 3        A.   This is, we call them Zeleni Jadar because it's the name of the

 4     area.  This is the secondary grave number 4, so ZJ-4.  And that was our

 5     first check of just underneath the surface.  And here appears a human

 6     body.

 7        Q.   255.  Another illustration?

 8        A.   Mm-hmm.  So we are now in the secondary phase of the burial

 9     process.  This is a group of graves, secondary graves, along the former

10     road that went from Zvornik to Tuzla which is now a totally more or less

11     abandoned road.  And this is a location close to Orahovac.  The result of

12     the exhumation of those sites, I mean, not all of them, but several of

13     them, indicates that the bodies were coming, indeed, from Orahovac.  This

14     was the secondary burial place for the bodies that had been taken away

15     from the two graves of Orahovac.

16        Q.   And how did -- how were those graves found?

17        A.   These ones, like all of the other ones we are talking about, were

18     found based on aerial imagery analysis.

19        Q.   All right.  256.

20        A.   This is, again, the so-called Hodzici Road with the aerial

21     photograph that shows the dispersion of these secondary sites all along

22     this stretch of dirt road.

23        Q.   And did you go yourself to any of these sites to determine if

24     there were any human remains there before the full exhumations?

25        A.   Absolutely, yes, I went to all of them.

Page 1048

 1        Q.   And what -- did you confirm anything?

 2        A.   On some, no confirmation; but on others, yes, there was

 3     confirmation.  But, nevertheless, all of them were put on the list for

 4     full exhumation.  I don't know if at this stage it's still done, because

 5     we abandoned this exhumation aspect in 2001 to the Bosniaks and it

 6     turned -- becoming an extremely slow process after 2001.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that will be the subject of an additional

 8     report, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   Now, let's go to 257.

10        A.   This is another cluster of graves in a -- secondary graves in the

11     area we name Liplje.  And, again, the Djakovica location indicated that,

12     yes, there were multiple remains, so potentially mass graves.  And after

13     exhumation, the connection was made by the analysts of the evidence found

14     inside as bodies coming from the dam, from Petkovci; Petkovci school,

15     exhumation of the dam.

16        Q.   Just for the Trial Chamber, do you recall any examples of how the

17     connections were made, what kind of materials were related to both

18     places?

19        A.   The main connection for all of them was shell casings analysis,

20     since the shell casings were scattered all over the dead bodies, all over

21     the crime scene.  Then these shell casings for many of them were buried

22     together with the bodies.  And when these shell casings -- when the

23     bodies were taken out of these graves to be put in secondary graves,

24     again the shell casings were found.  So there was a full analysis process

25     of all the shell casings to make matches between sites.

Page 1049

 1             But in addition to the shell casings, there were also additional

 2     elements: soil analysis; pollen analysis; green glass, for example, found

 3     in a place we have not hit yet but coming obviously from Kozluk, with the

 4     labels.  The piece of severed pipe that was torn apart at Orahovac was

 5     found in a grave at Hodzici.  Pieces of the concrete structure of the

 6     Kravica warehouse was found in one of the graves of Glogova.  So, I mean,

 7     there is full testimony getting into the detail of all the findings that

 8     connect the places each with another.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I think we now should go to 258.

10        A.   So this is the area of Liplje where these four graves, secondary

11     graves, of those executed at the plateau of the dam were then hidden.

12        Q.   All right.  259.

13        A.   This is what we name the Cancari Road, which is a dirt road in a

14     valley.  And these first nine spots indicate the location of secondary

15     graves which the forensic experts could connect with the bodies taken

16     away from the Branjevo farm.

17        Q.   Any Kozluk connection that you remember?

18        A.   It will come on the following slide where three more dots have to

19     be added on this valley.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let's keep going then.  We should be on 260.

21        A.   That's the view of the how looks the Cancari valley.  It's a

22     remote place that has been totally ravaged by -- during the war time.

23     All the houses are destroyed.  And makes a perfect hiding place for this

24     type of secondary graves.

25        Q.   And 261.

Page 1050

 1        A.   So this is a full view of aerial imagery showing the entire

 2     Cancari valley.  The nine sites connected with Branjevo farm are at the

 3     left of the pictures, so at the west.  And there are three more sites

 4     that appear in this red box.  So in total 12 sites in the valley.  The

 5     first three being, in fact, the bodies that have been taken out from the

 6     mass grave of Kozluk.  And it's in one of these that when we saw the

 7     labels Vitinka and the green glass we could instantly, indeed, make a

 8     connection.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 262.

10        A.   So this is a picture taken from the aerial imagery in order to

11     put it in a shape.  This is seen from far above.  And the next one will

12     be a view from a helicopter.

13        Q.   263.

14        A.   So this is how a secondary grave looks, and this is the set-up of

15     a -- for the exhumation team, which is going to go entirely through this

16     site which is the first one we processed in the valley, Cancari 12.

17        Q.   And did you make a video for courtroom presentation to show, give

18     the Trial Chamber some -- a more specific detailed idea of a secondary

19     grave exhumation?

20        A.   Yes, I did.  The purpose of that initially was not to be used in

21     the courtroom, but I did it in order to show for the newcomers of the

22     exhumation team who are archaeologists what it is to -- what they are

23     going to do, since these bones were not a few thousands years old, it was

24     a bit of a new business for them also.

25        Q.   Okay.  One more photograph, 264.  What's this?

Page 1051

 1        A.   This is the first layer after the start of the exhumation of

 2     Cancari 12.

 3        Q.   And can you just give us a brief explanation how they got to be

 4     in this sort of odd position like this with trenches on either side?

 5        A.   The experts will better talk about it than I would do, but the

 6     problem they face in these situations is that these bodies have been

 7     first buried with heavy equipment, after that they have been unburied

 8     with heavy equipment, put on board of trucks, then re-dumped in secondary

 9     graves; so many of them are body parts because they have been sliced by

10     the spoon of these heavy machines, and all the bodies are a bit more or

11     less intertwined.  So for the sake of their work to take the body parts

12     as undamaged as possible, it was a very, very difficult task for them to

13     work on these secondary sites.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we now have 19 minutes.  It's really the only

15     video evidence of this massive exhumation project.  So I would play this

16     19-minute tape.  It's our number 1306.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18        Q.   And if you can provide any necessary narrative.

19        A.   So that's the arrival on Cancari 12.  So from the ground it's

20     more or less impossible to see that something has been disturbed here.

21     When you are at the level of the ground, you don't see it.  You have to

22     look at it from above.  So that's a 360 of the area.  Only destroyed

23     houses.

24             The road that, to the left, goes to the Drina valley, about

25     8 kilometres from here.

Page 1052

 1        Q.   During the exhumation, do you recall any Dutch jeeps driving up

 2     and down the road?

 3        A.   It was not a Dutch jeep, it was a jeep from the police that had

 4     been stolen to the Dutch battalion during the take-over of Srebrenica.

 5             So here they are, in fact, mapping entirely the terrain.  Taking

 6     reference points.  Then the little backhoe will start to take action and

 7     scoop -- scoop a first layer of the terrain in order to determine what is

 8     the real surface of the grave.

 9        Q.   Who is the man in the hat?

10        A.   Richard -- Professor Richard Wright, who is overlooking the

11     operation.  Now he is marking the terrain due to, in fact, difference of

12     colours of the soil.  The earth turns green on such burial places because

13     of the melting of the bodies with the soil.  It becomes greenish.  By

14     putting these little markers, he is finding the limits of the grave.

15             So we were a little bit off limits because digging what was

16     supposed to be just after the limit, there were remains.

17        Q.   What do you mean by that?

18        A.   Flags were supposed to fix the limits of the grave so the

19     backhoe, after this limit, could dig.  But unfortunately the limit was a

20     bit too short apparently, and when the backhoe dug, he ended up hitting

21     human remains.

22        Q.   Is that the correct date of this?

23        A.   For sure, yes.

24        Q.   November 5th, 1998.  Excuse me, 11 May 1998.

25        A.   There is a trench dug alongside of the graves so that they can

Page 1053

 1     work through the grave.  But on this specific site we requested also that

 2     they work first the surface so we could visualise the surface.

 3        Q.   These people we see now, do you know -- were they professionals

 4     or are they just labourers?

 5        A.   No, they are all very highly qualified in their activity.  They

 6     are all archaeologists coming from various countries.  So this is a hand.

 7     When we first came on this site, the first dig revealed the presence of a

 8     human foot, and we will see this foot now fully exhumed soon.  There is

 9     also a search for shell casings on-going during the exhumation.

10        Q.   That's -- is that what the -- that's a metal detector?

11        A.   Absolutely, yes.  This is a skull.  That's the beep indicating

12     the metal detector had found a shell casing.  Here it is.

13        Q.   Do you recall this Cancari 12 particular -- do you know what site

14     you think this was connected to?

15        A.   Branjevo farm.  So you can see it's like an archeological dig.

16     This is why the process is so lengthy also, but very precise.

17        Q.   In your time, were they ever able to figure out how many people

18     this represents?

19        A.   What I recall is that most of these sites -- I know that one at

20     least is much larger but was exhumed after my departure.  Most of them

21     were between 80 and 180 people inside.  So every evening the team was

22     covering the site to protect it in case it will rain.  The place was

23     guarded day and night.

24        Q.   How about any de-mining?

25        A.   Yes, when the exhumation team arrived on the spot, there was

Page 1054

 1     previous de-mining.  What we did not do when we were doing the first

 2     assessment of it, it would have taken much too much time.  This is the

 3     foot that we found when we went to this place the first time, because

 4     there was a preliminary dig on all these sites prior deciding to start

 5     the exhumation.  So every one of them, remains, were found.

 6        Q.   Did you personally use a shovel to find many of these sites?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.  That's a view from above.

 8        Q.   Can you briefly tell us where they are taking these human

 9     remains?

10        A.   At this point, they are taken to a container.  And then later on

11     they are taken to the morgue.  And at the morgue every body or piece of

12     body is being autopsied.

13        Q.   And in your time was that done by an international team from the

14     OTP?

15        A.   Yes, absolutely.  Yes, yes.  It started in 1996 and it didn't

16     stop.  This is an example of the difficulties they face in order to get

17     out a body part intertwined with other body parts.  Sometimes to take

18     only one leg out of it can take a lot of time.  And I cannot avoid to

19     make always the same comment when we hit these pictures is that the thing

20     that is missing on them is the smell.

21        Q.   All right.  Mr. Ruez, just the last few photographs in your book.

22     I will go now to 268.  We've gone over these -- each of these graves, so

23     I'll go over to page 268 now.

24        A.   The map before would be worth returning to, the one just before

25     this one.

Page 1055

 1        Q.   All right, team leader, let's go back.  This is page 267.

 2        A.   Yes.  Now, this one is of interest because, again, it's just a

 3     graphic thing, but this marks all the most important crime scenes of this

 4     case.  The primary burial sites which are undisturbed, so just the few

 5     ones at the south.  All the main ones are totally disturbed.  And the

 6     locations of the secondary ones will be needed to have all the crime

 7     scenes, all the concentration sites of prisoners.  It will add too many

 8     items on the map, but this shows the scale of this operation, both in the

 9     distance but also in the number of sites involved.  And it's a crime

10     scene that is 70 kilometres north/south and 40 kilometres east/west.  So

11     it's not the usual scale of a traditional crime scene.

12        Q.   And the people that helped exhume that, Bill Haglund,

13     Richard Wright, where did they get their experience, just very briefly,

14     so we know.  Just -- Bill Haglund, for example?

15        A.   Bill Haglund, prior working for this case, did exhumations in

16     Rwanda.  Richard Wright did exhumation in Ukraine on war crimes from the

17     Second World War.

18        Q.   Okay.  All right.  I think we can now go to 268.

19        A.   So this is a picture that I could assemble thanks again to the

20     video of Zoran Petrovic when he went to Srebrenica town.  And this is the

21     last picture of the standing mosque in the centre of Srebrenica.

22        Q.   And do you remember what date Petrovic would have gone into

23     Srebrenica to take this photograph?

24        A.   Could be the 13.

25        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Let's go now to 269.

Page 1056

 1        A.   This is the same mosque but after the take-over of Srebrenica.

 2        Q.   And who took this picture?

 3        A.   I took this picture.

 4        Q.   Would you remember roughly when?

 5        A.   In 1996.  Probably around April, April or May.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 270.

 7        A.   That's at least one year later, as seen from above.  That was

 8     probably 1997.  You can still see it.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we put that on e-court so he can ... It's a

10     bit hard to make out, I think, where this is.

11        Q.   Could you just circle the area that you are talking about?

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd like to offer that into evidence as well.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 271.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P92, Your Honour.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   This is 271.

20        A.   That's a closer shot of the previous one.

21        Q.   Okay.  I think that's clear.  Now, let's go to --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, we saw a lengthy video of the

23     exhumation, do you want --

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I apologise.  Yes.  I now -- that is number 1306.

25     Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 1057

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P93, Your Honour.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

 4        Q.   So I think we see where you were talking about.  As you said,

 5     it's an enlargement.  So if we could go now to the next shot, which is

 6     272.  What's this?

 7        A.   So this is, again, one year later again, but this time there is

 8     nothing left to be seen because it has been levelled to the ground and

 9     now it's -- where the yellow arrow points, it's just part of the

10     parking-lot of this area.

11        Q.   Okay.  We also see a structure with a tower or steeple; what is

12     that?

13        A.   This is an Orthodox church that is still intact, at least the

14     outside, as one can see, at that date.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to 273.

16        A.   That's another mosque in Srebrenica.

17        Q.   And 274.

18        A.   That's another view of the minaret.

19        Q.   275.

20        A.   Same thing.

21        Q.   And what happened to that particular mosque?

22        A.   I didn't follow this one as closely as the other one, so I cannot

23     say.

24        Q.   All right.  And the last picture in your book.  This, again, we

25     see is a shot of what town?

Page 1058

 1        A.   Bratunac town.

 2        Q.   And this time we clearly see a picture of the -- down on the

 3     right-hand corner, of the Bratunac Brigade; is that correct?

 4        A.   That is correct.

 5        Q.   All right.  As well as the other things that you've mentioned

 6     before.

 7        A.   And this one should fit in the part that we dedicated to Bratunac

 8     being at the evening of 13 of July, the main assembling area for all of

 9     the prisoners taken during the operation, I mean, taken between the

10     12 and the 13 evening.

11        Q.   All right.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President --

13             Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

14             -- that brings this -- his testimony, from the Prosecution's

15     perspective, to a close.  I would offer this book into evidence, the

16     electronic version, as well as the hard copy, 1450.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This compilation of photos and the book will be

18     received.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we have hard copies of --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a moment.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P94, Your Honour.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We have hard copies of this, if the Court wishes

23     to have them.  Otherwise, I guess it's break time as well.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber will appreciate to receive that, the

25     hard copy.  And I think now we adjourn for the second break.  And then,

Page 1059

 1     Mr. Tolimir, you can start cross-examination.

 2             We adjourn and resume at 6.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please start your cross-examination.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             My greetings to all those present.  May peace be with you, and

 8     may this trial be completed in accordance with God's will.

 9             I would like to thank the Prosecution, specifically

10     Mr. McCloskey, for having presented some elements from the investigation

11     that may be helpful to the Defence, since the Defence did not have an

12     opportunity to conduct this sort of investigation out in the field and is

13     unable to hear out the eye-witnesses of these events as Mr. Ruez could

14     have for a period of time while he was the OTP investigator.

15             And I would like to thank Mr. Ruez for providing me with certain

16     elements in replying to the questions put by the Prosecution which will

17     help shed light on certain facts.  And I'm sure that through the

18     examination, Mr. Ruez will be able to provide certain helpful information

19     that will be of assistance to the Trial Chamber as well in establishing

20     matters related to had case.

21             I would like to commence my examination.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Depending on how cross-examination will develop,

24     we will be drawing upon some of the comments that you made which were

25     very extensive, and at some points you also drew certain conclusions.

Page 1060

 1     The Defence believes that based on the elements presented by you in the

 2     examination-in-chief will require ten hours to complete their

 3     examination, which is the amount of time used up by the Prosecution.

 4     And, at any rate, the Prosecution will have an opportunity to re-examine

 5     you.

 6             Before I proceed to ask you about your personal background, I

 7     would like to put to you several general questions related to the book

 8     that you presented over the two days now, and which was also presented in

 9     the Popovic et al. case.  And I hope we shall be able to complete these

10     questions today, otherwise it will take us to April.

11             It's, in fact, a series of photographs that I would like you to

12     answer certain questions about.  Based on which criteria did you select

13     the photographs that you included in your book?

14        A.   Indeed, these pictures are an extract of a much larger set of

15     pictures.  The selection is done in the purpose to be as short and

16     precise as possible for a short presentation of this long series of

17     events, and enable people who have no opportunity to go and see these

18     places by themselves to have a feeling of how they look like or how they

19     looked like.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us when the book was made.  Was it

21     during your term of office as the chief investigator of the ICTY for

22     Srebrenica, or thereafter?  Thank you.

23        A.   In fact, this book exists now in the format of a book, but for me

24     it was a bit like a PowerPoint presentation.  It was -- always was an

25     electronic version, and it improved, let's say, with time, because I used

Page 1061

 1     more or less the same exhibits for all the trials I testified for.  So

 2     this specific one was indeed done just -- finalised just before the trial

 3     you mentioned; Popovic, Beara, and others, the seven.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  We can, therefore, conclude that you did the work for

 5     the purposes of your testimony in that case?  Thank you.

 6        A.   Yes, absolutely.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Ruez, yesterday during your testimony at page 6

 8     of the transcript, you gave us comments on a map.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up

10     Prosecution 65 ter 01450, page 5.  Do we have it?  Thank you, we have it.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   You said that the grey line roughly depicted the boundaries of

13     Srebrenica, that's to say, the Srebrenica enclave, because, and I quote:

14             "There was no actual boundary, and that's the boundary of the

15     protected area."

16             What is it exactly that you meant, and what's the basis for your

17     conclusion as presented to the Trial Chamber?  Thank you.

18        A.   The reason why I didn't name the grey line boundary is because

19     according to what I heard both from the Bosniaks who were inside, from

20     people from the UN Battalion who was there, and also from Bosnian Serb

21     army personnel was that this could not be called boundaries.  It was --

22     it was lines which were, in fact, moving with the time.  When UN soldiers

23     were leaving an area, sometimes then it was chewed up by the Bosnian Serb

24     army.  So these lines, in fact, only exist through the position of the

25     observation posts.  It was not something frozen on a map.

Page 1062

 1        Q.   Thank you.  For Their Honours' benefit, can you tell us, since

 2     you were involved in the investigation concerning Srebrenica, do you know

 3     that the boundaries of the zone were established when the agreement for

 4     the demilitarisation of the zone was signed?  And that's important to

 5     establish for the purposes of this case.

 6        A.   It could very well be, but for the sake of a criminal

 7     investigation about the facts that happened after the take-over, fixing

 8     the limits of the enclave was very far away from what I thought my duty

 9     was.

10        Q.   Thank you for your answer.  Do you know that there existed a map

11     of the demilitarised zone, or was there not such a map?  Thank you.

12        A.   I have not a clue about this since this demilitarised zone was

13     created before the events I was tasked to investigate.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Since in your capacity as an investigator you

15     investigated everything, do you know that the agreement on the

16     demilitarised zone contained a map, and do you know where this map can be

17     found today, and have you seen the map at all?

18        A.   Again, I have to repeat that the investigation - and this is what

19     I always used to say - the investigation starts 11 July beginning of the

20     afternoon after an air-raid that made everyone realise that the enclave

21     would not be defended and people started to take to direction for

22     fleeing, and subsequently you saw the number that I unfolded during my

23     testimony happened.  The investigation is about these events.  I never

24     looked into what could have happened in this area since 1992 and

25     specially not into all the type of agreements that had been made

Page 1063

 1     regarding sharing of terrain or whatsoever.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, as an investigator, whether an ICTY

 3     investigator should keep in mind the agreement signed between two sides

 4     in an area that is the subject of a case before a court of law?

 5        A.   My answer is no.  The purpose of the investigation I was busy

 6     with was to identify what became the fate of both the civilians of that

 7     area and the military of that area once they ended up captured and in the

 8     custody of the Bosnian Serb army.  That was the sole purpose of this

 9     investigation.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Were you at all interested in what prompted the

11     conflict and the events discussed in this case?  Thank you.

12        A.   No.  My objective was not to try to explain why the perpetrators

13     committed their acts but to prove the facts of the acts that they have

14     committed.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Is it at all important for this case, in accordance

16     with the indictment which you should be aware of since you wrote it based

17     on the information from your investigation, to know the genesis of the

18     conflicts and problems that existed in Srebrenica?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection to a misstatement of the fact.  There's

20     no indication that Mr. Ruez wrote any indictment, and so he needs to be

21     careful not to misstate key facts.  I will try to remain quiet, but key

22     facts, like who wrote the indictment, I think I need to object to.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, watch the objection of

24     Mr. McCloskey.  I'm quite sure that this witness was not the author of

25     the indictment.  Please carry on, but bear that in mind.

Page 1064

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I am mindful of that,

 2     and I said in the latter part of my question that the indictment was

 3     written based on the information provided by Mr. Ruez as an investigator.

 4     I apologise if I erred or was -- went beyond the rules in my question.

 5             Thank you, Mr. President, I will bear that in mind.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Ruez, based on what information did you draw the limits or

 8     boundaries of the enclave, and why did you draw them if they are not

 9     important?  Or alternatively, what was the basis for the boundaries that

10     you drew if you did not have direct information about it available?

11     Thank you.

12        A.   It is of so little importance for this investigation that what I

13     drew on this map is the blue square that indicates the location of the

14     Srebrenica safe area.  This map is based on, if I remember well, a

15     Dutch map.  I don't exactly remember what we used as a background

16     picture, but, again, had this map no observation posts and no grey zone

17     as a boundary, my blue square would be far enough for the sake of what I

18     wanted to explain to this courtroom.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Can you mark for us on this map the urban

20     area of Srebrenica.  If you can, I would kindly ask you to mark it, if

21     you can use this map.  Otherwise we can call up a different map.

22        A.   I've left my glasses in the witness room, but I can succeed doing

23     it without it.  So roughly --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Court Officer will bring it.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 1065

 1             But, I mean, roughly, anyhow, it's rough, this will be more or

 2     less the urban area of Srebrenica town.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I kindly ask the Presiding Judge to

 5     admit this map into evidence.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D19, Your Honours.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Ruez, yesterday at page 6 of the transcript you mentioned the

10     gathering of the 28th Division in the area of the village of Susnjari.

11     You did not pronounce it that way, but that's what you meant.  Was it

12     known how -- what the strength of the column was?

13        A.   The total number of the column, the global assessment from

14     various sources, puts the figure up to approximately 15.000 people among

15     which, according to the information that I could receive from the

16     2nd Corps of the BiH Army, was that 6.000 men from the 28th Division

17     arrived safely on Muslim-held territory.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us more precisely what the strength of

19     the column was when it set out from Susnjari?  That's what I meant.  I

20     didn't want to know how many of them arrived in Zenica [as interpreted].

21     But do you know what Ramiz --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the last name.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   -- and other Muslim commanders said in terms of the column?  I

25     know that they mentioned women as well.

Page 1066

 1        A.   Again, I have to say that the military historical part of this

 2     case was not the topic of the investigation.  The investigation is about

 3     the fate of those who surrendered or were captured and ended up being

 4     prisoners of war in the hands of the Bosnian Serb army.  I had no

 5     interest into looking if these people were carrying handguns, hunting

 6     guns, or heavy machine-guns, or tanks, or whatsoever.  This was not the

 7     topic.

 8             The investigation is upon the fate of people who were -- ended up

 9     missing and who were captured prisoners.  This is the topic of the

10     investigation, not the military aspect of the surrounding battles or

11     military aspects.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  My question wasn't concerned with the

13     weapons that they had.  I only wanted to know the number of those who

14     left, the number of those who managed to get out.  So I was interested in

15     the number of people who left Susnjari in the column.  I suppose that you

16     gained that information through your investigation and through the

17     statements of individuals, some of whom appeared as witnesses here.

18     Thank you.

19        A.   Yes, I already have answered this question.  It was three

20     questions before.  You have the answer in the transcript.  15.000, among

21     which 6.000 from the BiH Army.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what of the remainder, if we subtract

23     6- from 15.000 we are left with a large number of people.  What became of

24     them?  Thank you.

25        A.   What became of them is exactly the topic of what my task was,

Page 1067

 1     since the number of the disappeared people was fixed by the ICRC at

 2     approximately 8.000.  So the purpose of all this investigation was to

 3     determine where did these 8.000 vanish and what happened to them.  This

 4     is exactly the heart of the investigation indeed.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  There is a difference of 9.000 individuals.  If

 6     15.000 set out and only 6.000 managed to get out, according to your

 7     calculation 9.000 are missing.  So the question remains what of these

 8     people, what happened to them?

 9        A.   You misunderstood and you misread my answer, General.  I said the

10     column was composed of 15.000 people, among which 6.000 declared as being

11     BiH Army personnel.  So you have a difference of 9.000.  Again, this

12     number is an approximate.  The number we rely on talking about missing

13     persons is ICRC, 8.000.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I do agree that you should correct me if I

15     misunderstand you.  Just answer this question for me, will you:  Do you

16     know how many people set out from Susnjari and how many got out and

17     reached Tuzla of the individuals belonging to that column?  Thank you.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  This has been asked and answered

19     several times now.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, but I

21     would really want those who understand how many got out.  If 15.000 set

22     out and 6.000 were members of the army, what of these remaining 9.000?

23     What are they?  Civilians.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can the witness answer that?  Thank you.

Page 1068

 1        A.   If I really want to please you, I will say that one could

 2     consider that none of them was a civilian except the women since a few

 3     days before the enclave was taken over, there was an order of general

 4     mobilisation of all the men within the enclave.  So, again, I have to

 5     insist that the sake of the investigation is to determine the fate of

 6     people who were prisoners, who ended up being prisoners.  Either they

 7     were military dressed in military or military dressed in civilian clothes

 8     or total civilians, doesn't matter once their status is the one of the

 9     status of prisoners.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now I understand.  So in addition to women, there

11     were 15.000 able-bodied men who set out, according to your investigation.

12     Is my understanding correct?

13        A.   We can say it like this.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did only 6.000 manage to get out or some of those who

15     had been mobilised before they set out with the column?  And I mean aside

16     the 6.000 who were registered as members of the army, were there others

17     who managed to get out?  Thank you.

18        A.   Again, the goal of the investigation was not to determine how

19     many people managed to get out alive of the Srebrenica safe area, but to

20     determine the fate of those who were declared missing.  So knowing how

21     many people ended up alive in the area of Tuzla was really not the

22     concern of this investigation.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Based on your answer you have just provided, may I

24     conclude that as a result of your investigation you basically did not

25     learn of the exact number of those out of the column who eventually

Page 1069

 1     reached Tuzla?  Thank you.

 2        A.   No, the precise number is not -- is not known to me.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  I'm content with this answer.

 4             Yesterday in your testimony at page 8 of the transcript, line 21,

 5     you discussed a number of people assembled in Potocari.  And without

 6     going into the figures, because I want you to share that information,

 7     what was the number of people who gathered there, in your view?

 8        A.   I have no precise figure.  There were -- there were approximately

 9     25.000 refugees coming from Srebrenica who arrived in Tuzla and the area

10     of Tuzla and were in refugee camps.  So to have a more precise figure of

11     this number, I think the Red Cross could be the good source of

12     information.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  I pointed it out because yesterday at

14     page 8, line 21, you stated that you tried to ascertain the number of

15     those assembled in Potocari; that is the way I understood it.  How did

16     you as the investigator decide on the figure?  Perhaps this may be of

17     interest to the Chamber as well.  And, please, bear with me for asking

18     questions about things I don't know.  I believe such pieces of

19     information may be useful for both me and the Chamber.

20        A.   Okay.  Again, I have to insist on the fact that for the sake of

21     the investigation the only number of importance is the number of people

22     missing, since we hope at the end of the entire exhumation process and

23     identification by DNA to have a very precise number of people that we can

24     prove had been executed as they were prisoners.  This is the important

25     figure.

Page 1070

 1             For the other figures, the estimates, the estimates that everyone

 2     was using at that time was indeed a column of a strength of approximately

 3     15.000 and a population of refugees of approximately 25.000.  So that

 4     puts the total of the population inside the enclave to approximately

 5     30.000, which was also an estimate of NGOs and UN and so on.  But all

 6     these figures are estimates anyhow.  I don't think anyone knows precisely

 7     what these numbers were.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Since you consulted various sources in your

 9     investigation as well as interviewed a number of witnesses who appeared

10     in this case, can you tell us where this Defence can find the exact

11     number of people who left Potocari and eventually set out for Tuzla?

12        A.   Maybe the intelligence service of former Bosnian Serb army, they

13     might have indications on this from their security offices and their

14     personal sources.

15        Q.   Thank you.  That was probably one of the channels you used

16     yourself in your investigation.  Since I have no means of contacting

17     them, I wanted to ask you this:  Do you know how many B&H soldiers set

18     out from Srebrenica to Zepa?

19        A.   No, I have to correct you.  My sources, unfortunately, were not

20     the security officers nor their commanders, talking about the

21     intelligence service of Bosnian Serb army.  I didn't say the BiH Army; I

22     said the Bosnian Serb army.

23             Regarding the second part of your question, indeed the number of

24     6.000 Bosnian -- BiH soldiers who reached safe territory, this figure was

25     given to me by officers from the 2nd Corps of the BiH Army.

Page 1071

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I am content with this answer.

 2             I noticed that you previously said that 6.000 soldiers arrived,

 3     but I was interested in the number of people who left Srebrenica and went

 4     towards Zepa.  Can you please answer that.

 5        A.   My task was the investigation on the events that follow the

 6     take-over of the Srebrenica safe area.  I was at no point involved in the

 7     investigation regarding what happened after the fall of Zepa nor the

 8     military situation in between the Srebrenica situation and the Zepa

 9     situation.  So I cannot answer your question, sorry.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I asked you this because the Prosecutor, when

11     they put you on their witness list, stated that you were to testify on

12     all relevant counts on the indictment.  My indictment, as you know,

13     includes Zepa.  So the way I understand your answer is that you did not

14     investigate Zepa as can be concluded based on your testimony.  Thank you.

15        A.   You are right.

16        Q.   As an investigator and a person who interviewed a number of

17     people appearing in this case, can you tell us how many people from

18     Srebrenica eventually arrived in Zepa?  Thank you.

19        A.   I know only about one, because he is a survivor from the Kravica

20     warehouse who then went to Zepa.  In Zepa he was captured.  He was put in

21     a prison camp.  And he was subsequently released, I think, among the last

22     ones around February/March 1996.  This is the only case of someone who

23     had a connection with Zepa.  I cannot say anything about Zepa.

24        Q.   If possible, could you tell us the name of that person so that

25     this Defence could rely on that source of information as well, or should

Page 1072

 1     we submit that request to the Prosecutor?

 2        A.   Yes, you will have to request the Prosecutor.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go into private session briefly.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in public session, Your Honour.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  We have

16     received his name.  We, nevertheless, wanted to ask the witness that,

17     although we received that information from you.  Among other things, we

18     believe it is important to know how many people actually went to Zepa.

19     Thank you.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Witness, can you tell us why your investigation did not encompass

22     Zepa and the events in that enclave, because it was included in both the

23     Popovic et al. indictment as well as in my indictment?  Thank you.

24        A.   The reason is simple.  First, I do not decide as an investigator

25     or even an investigation team leader what the topics of the investigation

Page 1073

 1     should be.  I was busy with the events following the take-over of

 2     Srebrenica safe area.  It was a task large enough, I think.  And I have

 3     never been tasked to investigate events in Zepa.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  First I'd like to clarify something before

 5     putting my question.  Concerning certain portions of the Petrovic

 6     footage, you say that you learned of some of it as late as 2001.  You

 7     said so yourself at page 10, lines 22 to 25.  If I'm not mistaken,

 8     between -- since April 2001, you were no longer and investigator on the

 9     Srebrenica team and you did not work for The Hague Tribunal.  How did you

10     learn of this video under such circumstances?  If you wish to refer to

11     the exact part of your testimony, I would direct you to page 10, lines 22

12     to 25.  How did you obtain that footage?

13        A.   Indeed, at that time, I was no longer a member of the OTP.  I was

14     on an island in the Caribs, and two journalists made the trip to show me

15     the footages at my house.  And that happened more or less in the same

16     time-frame these footages had reached this Tribunal also.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  After April 2001 after you stopped working

18     for the Prosecutor's Office, did you take any part in any further

19     Srebrenica investigations?  Can you explain to us what you did between

20     2001 and later on?  And in one of my following questions I will address

21     the earlier period between 1995 and 2000.

22        A.   After April 2001, I did not continue at all working on the

23     investigation, since I was no longer a member of this Tribunal.  But I

24     continued to be in contact with the Tribunal since I was supposed to

25     continue to testify for whatever coming trial connected with this

Page 1074

 1     Srebrenica case.

 2        Q.   That you, Mr. Ruez.  If this is so, after 2001 did you ever visit

 3     Srebrenica again?  And if so, when and why?

 4        A.   To Srebrenica as a precise location, yes.  One was for the sake

 5     of the outreach programme of the Tribunal to give a conference in

 6     Srebrenica itself.  And the other time was to accompany a journalist who

 7     wanted to do a report on the Srebrenica events.  So twice to Srebrenica

 8     town.

 9        Q.   If it is not a secret, could you tell us what were the years?

10     What was the year you went back for the first time and then the second?

11        A.   We reverse the thing, the first time was with the journalist; I

12     think it was in 2002.  I'm not a hundred per cent sure.  And for outreach

13     I'm not sure also; it might have been 2004, maybe 2005.  I'm not certain.

14        Q.   Thank you.  At the outreach conference, did any of the current

15     OTP employees take part who had worked with you while you were a member

16     of the Prosecution?

17        A.   Mark Harmon; senior trial attorney Mark Harmon was present in

18     Srebrenica.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  In the course of today and yesterday in

20     your testimony, you frequently mentioned witness statements.  Did you

21     have in mind the statements of witnesses given to you who -- or to the

22     ICTY, and were these people soldiers or ex-B&H policemen?  I am not sure

23     whether I understood your testimony properly.

24        A.   I always need to refer to witness statements because without

25     these witness -- most of the goal of such an investigation is -- once you

Page 1075

 1     have compiled witness testimonies, is to create a chronology of events

 2     that enables you to have a view of a situation; and since you cannot buy

 3     the information provided as being facts, you then need to go on the

 4     ground and check the elements that can either implement what you heard

 5     from these people or what you read from their testimonies, or maybe also

 6     find out that due to what you can see on the ground these people have no

 7     credibility.

 8             So I always refer to witness testimonies; either people I

 9     interviewed myself, or people who were interviewed by other

10     investigators.  But it's a constant reference, indeed, to witness

11     statements.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In order to have a complete answer, I would like to

13     ask you this as well:  Did you make use of the statements of those people

14     whom you chose to have appear as witnesses, and did you provide their

15     statements to B&H authorities and the MUP?

16        A.   It went the way reverse.  Once we had interviewed a witness, the

17     sole destination of the information is the Prosecutor of the ICTY, never

18     ever the local police or whoever in the area.  Nevertheless, the way it

19     worked the way around.  Most of these witnesses, we found out about their

20     existence by going through a huge number of statements that were

21     initially collected by the Bosniak war crime commission and also by the

22     MUP.

23             And we went through all these statements in order to sort out

24     among them those we believed were the most interesting.  And then we

25     systematically requested these people for an interview.  We didn't take

Page 1076

 1     the counts given to the local police or the war crime commission,

 2     especially at the moment the events were very hot.  So we re-interviewed,

 3     systematically, all those that we considered as being key information

 4     providers.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I asked you about this because there is a number of

 6     witnesses whose statements we received and were taken while you were the

 7     investigator, and there were also statements given to B&H authorities and

 8     the MUP.  Such statements given to the B&H Army and MUP is something that

 9     these witnesses deemed as unimportant.  That's why I wanted to ask you

10     something about the method of selection of those witnesses and if you

11     could please explain that.

12        A.   Yes.  As soon as July and August 1995, as we were in Tuzla during

13     that summer, we got access to several hundreds of statements from the war

14     crime commission that I already mentioned, from the MUP, from also --

15     some from UN civil affairs.  We also spread questionnaires in refugee

16     camps to NGOs in order for people who would have something of high

17     relevance to be able to contact us.

18             And based on all this, we made several packets, let's say.  One

19     packet was people who had information regarding the situation they

20     experienced in Potocari.  A second group was people who had things of

21     importance to say about the deportation route between Potocari and

22     Kladanj.  And the main statements, those of utmost importance, was the

23     last group of those who claimed having either witnessed executions or

24     survived executions.

25             And after that, the goal was to narrow down the information since

Page 1077

 1     for sure the survivors - there were not many - but interesting witnesses

 2     for all the rest, there were a lot, so we had to do a selection.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we are approaching the end of

 5     today's sitting.  It's 5 minutes to 7.00.  We learned that the

 6     Prosecution would like to raise some procedural matters.  You will have

 7     plenty of time for your cross-examination, but for today I think we

 8     should break and end the cross-examination.  I hope everybody can agree

 9     with that.

10             Mr. Ruez, I think for today this concludes your examination and

11     the cross-examination, but it's not the last day.  You should --

12             Mr. Tolimir, you want to raise something?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge.  I

14     just wanted to thank Mr. Ruez, especially because we don't know when

15     exactly he will continue his testimony.  He provided specific and

16     accurate answers to the questions I put.  I just wanted to wish him a

17     happy holidays when he rejoins his family.

18             I would like to thank you again, Mr. Presiding judge.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

20             Do you want to say something in the presence of the witness?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I think practically that would be a good

22     idea.  Mr. Ruez is used to being ordered not to speak to the Prosecution

23     during the breaks in testimony.  I've just realised I'm not aware of this

24     Trial Chamber's practice in that regard.  I don't think it's the law,

25     frankly, I think it's a practice.  So I would ask you that.

Page 1078

 1             But I would also -- there are two issues related to contacting

 2     him:  One being the scheduling.  Our next meetings are 14 and 15 April.

 3     We would like to get him in a two-day block which is as we all know we

 4     have, and we really need to be able to discuss with Mr. Ruez what days

 5     are the best for him.  And I certainly hope that the General will finish

 6     in two days because it would be very difficult to bring Mr. Ruez back

 7     again for a third time.

 8             So if I will have a chance to discuss his best days.  Ideally,

 9     the closer to now the better.  But, as you know, we were hoping that

10     without one of the witnesses we might be able to finish.  This time, we

11     didn't make it.  But if I could speak to Mr. Ruez on logistic grounds

12     and -- before he leaves, we should be able to get back to the Court the

13     best day.  So if it is, in fact, April 14th and 15th or perhaps the

14     following week or the week after.

15             So if I could have the ability to contact him on his schedule,

16     we, of course, notified him that there's a good chance that he was coming

17     back, so this is not a surprise, but we do need to connect with that so

18     we can get the information for him and to you.

19             The second is slightly less serious, but, nevertheless,

20     important.  We were hoping to be able to see Mr. Ruez tonight in a more

21     social setting where we would, of course, not speak to him about the case

22     at all but would - and I've informed Mr. Gajic of that fact - and would

23     ask your requested approval for that.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Taking into account that you indicated 11 hours

25     and 45 minutes for examination-in-chief and Mr. Tolimir indicated

Page 1079

 1     10 hours of cross-examination, I think we can be optimistic that two days

 2     are enough for cross-examination, perhaps re-examination, and some

 3     additional questions by the Chamber.

 4             Dealing with the first problem.  Mr. Ruez, could you indicate if

 5     you are available on the 14th and 15th of April?

 6             THE WITNESS:  It is a bit too early for me to make sure of this.

 7     I first have to go back to my office and check a few things, but I think

 8     we can bet that I can come back before the end of April.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Tolimir, you have heard about the wishes of the Prosecution

11     to have the leave of the Chamber to contact him about scheduling of the

12     continuing of your cross-examination.  Are you in agreement with that?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, the Defence

14     trusts that both Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Ruez are professionals, having

15     been in the trade for many years, and we do not want to pose any

16     problems.  We leave it in your hands to decide on the matter.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you have the same opinion for the second

18     request, that Mr. McCloskey and colleagues are allowed to socialise with

19     the witness for dinner or something like that if they promise not to

20     raise any question to this case?  Would you be in agreement with that?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We are

22     in agreement with that and do wish to enable them to meet and socialise

23     as old friends either on private or professional business.  We do not

24     mind.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that.

Page 1080

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, your request is granted.  You may

 3     contact the witness about the further appearance here in the Tribunal.

 4     And we wish you a wonderful Easter dinner together with the witness.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are there any other questions about scheduling?

 7             No.

 8             Thank you very much.  Mr. Ruez, for today you are free to return

 9     to your normal activities or for dinner, and we wish you and all others

10     present in the courtroom happy Easter, good holidays, and all the best

11     for you.

12             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We adjourn now, and resume on the 14th of April,

14     9.00, in this courtroom.

15             We adjourn.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day

18                           of April, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.