1 Thursday, 22 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, to everybody in the courtroom.
6 As you can see, we are still two judges. I just received a phone call
7 from Judge Mindua, he is still in Kinshasa, and can't make it to come
8 back because of the problems with the air traffic, and we are afraid it
9 will be not possible for him to come before Wednesday next week.
10 That means if we would be in the schedule of our hearings,
11 Tuesday would be the sixth day of his absence, and taking into account
12 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, Rule 15 bis, we should only sit in
13 the absence of one judge five days. And, therefore, we were thinking
14 about cancellation of one day of hearings this or next week.
15 I think there's another request by the accused, Mr. Tolimir, not
16 to sit on Monday morning. Putting together both arguments, we should, if
17 everybody agrees, counsel, the hearing of Monday morning next week so
18 that we may hope to be complete again the following week.
19 Is that in agreement with everybody or do you have problems with
21 Mr. Thayer.
22 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President. We have a witness
23 who needs to testify on Monday. Owing to work obligations, we had
24 arranged his schedule as far in advance as we could with that in mind so
25 we could start first thing on a Monday morning and be done. So that,
1 unfortunately, will cause an extreme hardship on that witness. He is
2 scheduled to travel this weekend to get here. It would work much better
3 for the purposes of our witness planning if we did not sit tomorrow. We
4 will have available Mr. Blaszczyk, the investigator, as a gap filler on
5 the Drina Corps collection which we were able to get together in time for
7 Our preference, Mr. President, obviously would be to stand down
8 tomorrow and be able to continue on Monday. We can, if there is a
9 courtroom available in the afternoon on Monday that may also suit the
10 witness, I expect the Chamber has already looked into that. But that's,
11 unfortunately, our position. We've been struggling very hard to get
12 these witnesses here, we've had to cancel them and move them around a
13 little bit, so any further disruptions really causes ripple effects down
14 the line as well, unfortunately.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Mr. Thayer, I was afraid just that
16 could happen. We are really in the hands of many things we can't
18 Mr. Tolimir.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A prayer follows, I could tell you
20 that we were notified by the Detention Unit that our priest won't be able
21 to come on Monday, hence I'm at your disposal for Monday morning in hope
22 that this resolves the issue that you have at hand.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that, Mr. Tolimir. I
24 think we should consider the situation again and we will tell the
25 Chamber's decision after the next break. I forgot to mention that the
1 remaining judges decided to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis today and the
2 next two hearing days. So that we now can start with the next witness.
3 Is the witness ready, Mr. Thayer?
4 MR. THAYER: He is, Mr. President. If I may just give one
5 sentence of background perhaps to help place this witness's testimony in
6 some context. He is a 92 ter witness. His testimony is really
7 intertwined with that of Witness 163 on the Prosecution's witness list.
8 Witness 163 is also known as PW-61. Their testimony is, as I said,
9 intertwined and really needs to be read together to get the full picture.
10 I just give that by way of background for this particularly short, short
11 witness, Mr. President, and he is ready to go.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just for clarification, Mr. Thayer, is that
13 witness PW-021?
14 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President -- today's witness, you mean?
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
16 MR. THAYER: Yes, today is Witness 81, also PW-021.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. Thank you. Could the witness be brought
18 in, please. As I understood you, Mr. Thayer, there are protective
19 measures in place for this witness.
20 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. They've been explained again to
21 the witness.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 [The witness entered court].
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Welcome to the Tribunal. I
25 think it's not the first time that you are here, and I hope you are quite
1 familiar with the procedure. Would you please read aloud the affirmation
2 on the card which is shown to you now.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: PW-021
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
8 There are still protective measures in place for you, that means
9 face and voice distortion so that nobody outside of this courtroom can
10 see you and hear your normal voice. We wait a moment so that Mr. Thayer
11 is able to start his examination without this noise.
12 Mr. Thayer from the Prosecution has some questions for you. If
13 you have the impression that you need a break, please let us know and we
14 will do our best.
15 Mr. Thayer.
16 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. With madam usher's
17 assistance, I'm going to hand the witness the pseudonym sheet.
18 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
19 Q. Good afternoon, witness. Sir, you are being shown a piece of
20 paper. Without reading anything out loud that's on that paper, I just
21 ask you to say yes or no whether you can see your name written on that
22 piece of paper, please?
23 A. Yes, I can.
24 MR. THAYER: If we may hand that up to the accused and the
25 Chamber, please. Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter 6210
1 into evidence, the pseudonym sheet at this time.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The pseudonym sheet will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P100 under seal, Your Honours.
4 MR. THAYER:
5 Q. Witness, in addition to not being shy if you need a break, as
6 Mr. President has told you, if you have a problem like you did last time
7 with your headphones, just let us know and we'll be able to adjust them,
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Witness, do you remember testifying about three years ago in this
11 same courtroom in another case?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And recently, did you read your testimony in that other case?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Did you listen to that testimony as well?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And, just to be clear for the record, when I say "read the
18 testimony," did someone, in fact, read the testimony to you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today that you were
21 asked in the other trial, would your answers be the same?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, at this time the Prosecution would
24 offer 65 ter numbers 6204, that is the transcript of the witness's prior
25 testimony under seal, and 6205, the public redacted version of his
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These are the transcripts of the Popovic case?
3 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, they will be received, the first one
5 under seal.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P101 under seal and Exhibit P102,
7 Your Honours.
8 MR. THAYER: And the Prosecution would additionally tender 65 ter
9 1730, a photograph identified by the witness in the Popovic case.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you going to use this photograph as well in
11 this trial?
12 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President, the intention was not to show it
13 again to the witness, but to introduce it as part of the prior testimony.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P103 under seal, Your Honours.
16 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I have a very brief 92 ter summary
17 which can be read in open session.
18 One night when the witness was a boy and living in Srebrenica,
19 Serbs in camouflage uniforms forced him and his father on to a green
20 truck with other people, blindfolded, and took them to a forest where
21 they were shot. He was later taken to the Zvornik hospital where he was
22 treated for wounds to his left knee and right bicep. And I have no
23 further examination-in-chief for the witness, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
25 Witness, you know that now the accused, Mr. Tolimir, has the
1 right to put some questions to you during the cross-examination.
2 Mr. Tolimir.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge. I
4 would like to wish good afternoon to the witness. I would like to thank
5 him for coming here on the invitation of the OTP. I will have no
6 questions of this witness, given that there will be other witnesses
7 testifying to the same subject matter. Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that, Mr. Tolimir.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No problem. We have a break of five minutes.
20 --- Break taken at 2.38 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 2.48 p.m.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, welcome. Before we start with the
23 next witness, let me mention two matters. The first is the Chamber
24 decided not to sit tomorrow, to cancel the hearing of tomorrow, but we
25 will sit on Monday morning. Thank you for your co-operation,
1 Mr. Tolimir. The second issue has something to do with exhibits again,
2 and because I think everybody would appreciate to have some guidance, I
3 would like to read out our procedural way to deal with it.
4 As the Chamber mentioned during the session on the 18th of March
5 this year, the Prosecution has submitted a number of exhibits associated
6 with witnesses' prior testimony as a part of its motion pursuant to
7 Rule 92 ter. Some of these exhibits were admitted through the witness in
8 prior proceedings. Others were simply used with the witness during the
9 prior testimony. Of this latter category, some were admitted through
10 other witnesses in the prior proceedings, while others were not admitted
11 at all.
12 In both, the Rule 92 ter decision of 3rd of November, 2009, and
13 during the session on 18th of March, 2010, the Chamber has repeatedly
14 drawn a distinction between these different categories of exhibits.
15 Accordingly, the Chamber requests that the Prosecution to communicate a
16 list of exhibits proposed for admission in association with the prior
17 testimony, clearly indicating to which category each exhibit belongs.
18 Following the procedure, this procedure enables the Chamber to be
19 in a position to admit the exhibits associated with the prior written
20 statement or transcript once the conditions of Rule 92 ter paragraph A
21 are met, that is the witness first is present in court; secondly, is
22 available for cross-examination and questioning by the Judges; and
23 thirdly, the tests that the written statement or transcript accurately
24 reflects his or her declaration and what he or she would say if examined.
25 The Chamber considers that those exhibits following within the
1 first category, that is those which were admitted through the witness in
2 prior proceedings are necessarily associated with the prior testimony
3 forming integral part thereof and will be admitted accordingly.
4 The Chamber otherwise, leaves it to the parties to explicitly
5 seek the admission of any other exhibits connected to such prior
6 testimony, such as those which were used with but not admitted through
7 the witness at the time the witness appears for cross-examination, should
8 they consider it necessary. However, the Chamber stresses that before
9 seeking admission of any exhibit not admitted through the witness during
10 his prior testimony, the parties should consider their relevance to the
11 instant case, and whether they are and inseparable and indispensable part
12 of the prior testimony, without which the prior testimony will lose
13 probative value or will become incomprehensible.
14 The Chamber will deal with any submissions in relation to this
15 issue as they arise. This Chamber further notes that since the start of
16 this case, there have been some exhibits which were submitted in
17 connection with some witnesses' prior testimony in the Prosecution's
18 92 ter motion, but which the Prosecution did not tender when the witness
19 appeared in court in this case. The Chamber wishes to clarify that it
20 does not consider that these exhibits have been properly tendered merely
21 by way of the inclusion in the 92 ter motion. Should the parties
22 consider it necessary, each remains free to move for the admission of any
23 exhibit which has not already been admitted in this case and which, in
24 the view of the moving party, is inseparable and indispensable from the
25 prior testimony of Rule 92 ter witnesses who have already appeared in
1 this case. In the future, however, each party should raise any concerns
2 regarding the inclusion of exhibits related to prior testimony at the
3 time the witness appears in court. This procedure will apply equally to
4 any exhibits accompanying Rule 92 ter testimony proffered by the Defence
5 during the presentation of its case.
6 I hope that clarifies the situation for all future witnesses and
7 exhibits. Thank you.
8 Now, it's up to you, Mr. McCloskey, to call the next witness.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. We are continuing with
10 investigator Janc and should finish up the map book evidence relatively
11 soon. I will go briefly into some of the maps that were the basis of the
12 map book so we get a fuller understanding of that. And so you know, we
13 have some good copies of some of those maps that are the basis for
14 Your Honours, so you'll be able to get a much better look at them then,
15 then the courtroom really allows, though, I'm hoping with audio visuals
16 help, they will be able to zero in the camera on these maps which are
17 both original maps as you see them.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Mr. Janc.
20 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Welcome to the Tribunal again and please be
22 reminded that the affirmation you made at the beginning of your testimony
23 still applies.
24 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC [Resumed]
25 THE WITNESS: I understand.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey is continuing his
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
4 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Janc.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. Now, I will be asking you questions, you may be a bit surprised,
8 but we are just trying to give the Court, as best we can, the
9 information. If we could start with the map book, which is 65 ter 06196,
10 on e-court page 6 and that's map book page 4, if you are going to look on
11 it on the actual map book, which I see you have in front of you.
12 And, Mr. Janc, this is the map, as you'll recognise it, that
13 has -- shows the outline of the Drina Corps that the Office of the
14 Prosecution constructed. And what I've done is I've gone to the numbered
15 map that you said was the basis of this, and taken the original out of
16 evidence and it is to your left at this point. And if we could now, for
17 Mr. Janc's benefit, bring up 65 ter 6215. This is this is a MIF
18 [Realtime transcript read in error "MFI"] form, and Mr. Janc will briefly
19 explain to us what a MIF form is.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Certainly not a MFI
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we've got to distinguish between MIF and MFI
23 or we are in big trouble. But I know that is well known to the
24 Court Reporter, so.
25 Q. Now, this, Mr. Janc, is the MIF form for what you had referenced
1 for this map in the index of your book. Can you tell us just briefly
2 what is a MIF form, for the Court?
3 A. Yes, again, MIF form, anyone create when submit the evidence into
4 the evidence unit, so whenever I get, for example, as an investigator
5 knew evidence, I create such form which basic data in it. And then I,
6 together with this form, submit this evidence into evidence unit when it
7 gets stamped and later on archived.
8 Q. Okay. Can you tell by looking at this form where this original
9 map to your left reflected in it, where it came from, where the OTP got
10 it from?
11 A. Yes, we have the evidence description, what it says this map is
12 part of the Drina Corps collection. As I was testifying about the other
13 day, so -- and this map was seised on 13 of December, 2004, and then we
14 have difference information by whom it was seised and from whom and is
15 such information. So evidence description would usually give you a
16 synopsis of what this evidence is and when and where it was seised and
17 from whom.
18 Q. Okay. So just in looking at this map to your left shoulder, is
19 that, as far as you know, from your knowledge and experience, an original
20 map from the Drina Corps collection?
21 A. Yes, I'm quite sure because I've seen a lot of those. I think,
22 if not all of them, at least two times I have reviewed all of them in our
23 archive, so I have unfolded those maps several times.
24 Q. Now, we can see that this map is not in what would be a
25 commercial shape, it's in sort of a funny shape, there's no legend at the
1 bottom of it, there's nothing on the top. Can you explain how a map like
2 this would be -- would have been created, if you know?
3 A. I think these maps were created by the VRS, and these are the
4 working maps and we can see they were stick together from many pieces.
5 Usually at the back you can see the stickers. Also so they were stick
6 together in order to get the area of their interest, so and then they
7 have made these markings on them according to their needs.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. If we could go back to e-court page 6 of
9 the map book. 6196.
10 Q. And I don't know if anyone recalls, but originally this
11 particular exhibit, I think I had some question because it shows that
12 Kladanj is part of the Drina Corps; yet, at the same time, the black line
13 that goes north and south, roughly, is clearly marked as the
14 confrontation line, and that is the Muslim or BiH side of the
15 confrontation line. So I offer you, could you take a look briefly at
16 that map which you have told us was the basis of this drawing and see if
17 that reflection of Kladanj being in the Drina Corps is actually noted on
18 that map as part of the outline. I think you can stand up briefly and
19 just take a look.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Perhaps audio-visual can zero in on the map with the other part
22 of the screen and so the Court can get a better idea of what this map
23 looks like, as it's just the practicality. They are going to have to
24 zero in. We should know where Kladanj is by this stage.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: But can you focus. That's great. And a little
1 more to give the Court a bit of an idea, and let's try to stay in Bosnia
2 if we can. Sorry, audio-visual for catching you like this off guard.
3 Q. Could you point to Kladanj on the map so audio-visual can find
4 your finger and blow it up even more.
5 A. It's here. This is Kladanj.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Audio, can you --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you move, perhaps, the camera should go --
8 another camera -- yes, that would be, yes, that is helpful.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Perfect. Keep going camera, please. If that's
10 all you can do.
11 Q. Could you outline with your finger the border that's outlined on
12 the map that shows the border of the Drina Corps?
13 A. This is the line and down south.
14 Q. And can you tell, was that line written in by somebody or was it
15 part of the commercial printing process, do you know what I mean?
16 A. It was done by the VRS, so it's not part of the commercial
18 Q. Okay. All right. Well --
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And please, Your Honours, if you have any
20 questions, I welcome them, we are just trying to go as we can here to
21 explain that. So now let's -- staying with the map book, could we go now
22 to e-court page 7.
23 Q. And I recall you have testified previously about one of the maps
24 that this was based upon, and we have gone to the evidence room, and this
25 map to your right is from the ERN that you referenced. So if I could
1 take you now to the MIF of that map, which is number 6211. And perhaps
2 you remember, I'll give you a bit of a test. Do you know what collection
3 or where this map was obtained from, or would you like to rely on the
5 A. I think it was seised during the Bratunac -- not Bratunac, but
6 Zvornik Brigade search in 1998.
7 Q. All right. Well, we can get that MIF up briefly so you can take
8 a look for the Court.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, perhaps you can help everybody who is
10 listening to us, what means the abbreviation MIF, M-I-F, these three
11 words. You are using this abbreviation, but I think for a better
12 understanding, it would be helpful to explain that.
13 THE WITNESS: I will try to because we are always using it as
14 MIF, but I think it stands for mini indexing form, something like that,
15 but I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I think that's what it stands for.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. All right. If you can take a look at this, the MIF for this map,
18 and does that tell you where this came from?
19 A. Yeah. That's what I was testifying about. So it was seised on
20 6th of March, 1998, during the Zvornik Brigade search.
21 Q. And just a little background, I -- I know you weren't around in
22 1998, but who searched the Zvornik Brigade and found this map?
23 A. The ICTY did it, I think, along with NATO troops.
24 Q. All right.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honours, at 65 ter 907 is a translation of
1 the big comments on the map, so you can get some idea of what this map is
2 about. That's 65 ter 907. So perhaps we could, yes, if we could
3 replace -- if we could get the English translation up on the screen so
4 the Court can just get a brief idea of what this map is.
5 Q. Can you tell us, just in your own -- as your memory -- this, was
6 it the Zvornik Brigade, what, in your view, was this, this map?
7 A. This is -- I think this one is -- let me. Yeah, it is. Krivaja
8 1995. I was looking for written text on it.
9 Q. First of all, what is Krivaja 1995, can you remind us of that?
10 A. Krivaja 1995 was operation to Srebrenica, so to liberate the
11 Srebrenica enclave, so it's the operation code-name for that operation
12 conducted in July 1995 then.
13 Q. All right. And could you, again, approach this map and point to
14 the area of Baljkovica so that we can -- and audio-visual can do the same
15 thing and to the area Baljkovica where the Muslim column broke through to
16 the Muslim lines. Okay. Can you see some blue arrows, can you show us
17 these blue arrows that are coming up from the south?
18 A. So these are the ones.
19 Q. And what are those arrows, in your mind, designed to depict?
20 A. This is the -- these arrows depict the movement of the Muslim
21 column out of Srebrenica up to the north.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Now, let's go back to e-court page 7, to
23 your map book. 6196. Could we blow that up one more time with those
24 three arrow-heads being in the centre.
25 Q. Now, we see on this map that we started with, that you have said
1 is based in part on Krivaja 1995 map, these arrows that are in red that
2 start off at Jaglici and Susnjari, what are they based upon? Where did
3 these arrows come were? Anything to do with this map with the blue
5 A. Yeah, I believe they are coming out from this map, from this blue
6 arrows, their meaning is the same. So this is the direction of the
7 movement of the column.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Now if we could go the same exhibit number
9 to e-court number 9.
10 Q. That's page 7 in your book, Mr. Janc, if you want to go to that.
11 All right. Now, here we see Nezuk and Baljkovica in red and those same
12 red arrows, but what I want to ask you about is: We have from the top of
13 the map indications of 5.pb, 2.pb, 3.pb, and so on, with red lines
14 indicating the separation.
15 First of all, tell us what do those things indicate, just
16 briefly, the 2.pb, 3.pb, and the red lines?
17 A. These are the Zvornik Brigade infantry battalions, so from 1 to
18 7, so seven of those infantry battalions was part of the Zvornik Brigade.
19 Q. And on the Krivaja 1995 map, are those same infantry battalion
20 indications noted on the map similarly as they are in the map book?
21 A. Yes, indeed.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now I would like to go to same -- the map book
24 page 11.
25 Q. Now, you've already talked about this map which has the overlays
1 of the English translation on it; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, correct.
3 Q. Now, just to remind us, those -- that English translation was not
4 on the originals, I take it?
5 A. No, they were not there.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honours, we have the original here, and we
7 have a very fine reproduction for you, but I can display it, if you'd
8 like so we can see that. It's ...
9 THE WITNESS: It is 0438-8415.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could just get a little help, we can
11 just put that under the clip so the -- so we can see it. That's great,
12 thank you. That's 65 ter 934.
13 Q. And that's an original, is it not, Mr. Janc?
14 A. Yes, indeed, it is the original.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And if we can do the same thing with
16 the map that is on e-court page 12, map book page 10. Thank you,
17 audio-visual for zeroing in on that. We have -- obviously that map has
18 the translation where you know, and Eva, we've got another map, 65 ter
19 933. All right, it's your turn to do it, good. Thank you for your help.
20 And the translation of this, we also have at 933, if we could get that up
21 on the screen briefly.
22 Q. Mr. Janc, do you recall where 933 came from, what collection?
23 A. It's the same collection, it's Drina Corps collection.
24 Q. And so the previous map, 934, what collection was that from?
25 A. Also Drina Corps collection.
1 Q. Okay.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: There should be an English translation associated
3 with this, just a -- at 65 ter 933. Once we get good at this, all the
4 rest of it will be downhill. You are looking for just an A-4 size sheet
5 with English on it.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, could you please repeat the number
7 of the map you are looking for. There's some problems to find the right
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Should be under associated documents with
10 65 ter 00933. Ms. Stewart has got it up and we are getting closer.
11 Okay. Thank you. That's it.
12 Q. And I'm just -- is there any date -- date on these maps, on this
13 map right here?
14 A. You mean this one? Yes, there is a date, 27 of July, 1995.
15 Q. And what is the date above that?
16 A. It is 12th of July, 1995.
17 Q. So can you just tell us what do you think this is, just briefly.
18 I don't want a big analysis, but, just, what do you think this map was
19 that was found in the Drina Corps? I mean, we see the dates, 12 July, is
20 it correct that the handwritten part next to that says, "Srebrenica was
21 Serbian and it is Serbian," and then at 27 July it says, "And Zepa is
22 Serbian." What does that tell you about this map?
23 A. That was map was created, obviously, after the attacks on
24 Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves and after their fall. So by the VRS again
25 because we see the handwritten text on the top and the bottom by
1 General Radislav Krstic.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, excuse me, we don't have the same
3 map on the screen as we see there and you commented there. It's a
4 different one.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise. I didn't notice that. We need to
6 go to 933 -- sorry, 934. That is my fault. This is 934.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is it part of the map book we received as hard
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. If you see e-court page 12 and e-court page
10 14, we've used pieces of that -- of that map but not the whole map, so
11 this is the whole map with the writings to give you context where it came
12 from. But we are not --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Isn't it page 10 of the map book?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, no. Actually, page 10 of the map book, yes,
15 correct. Page -- e-court page 12, but we still don't have the right map
16 up on the screen. We thought this one currently was 933. Can you read
17 the yellow sticky up in the corner?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, it says 933, so the ERN of this map should be
19 0438 -8412.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: We may have got it wrong in e-court. Give us a
21 minute, we'll sort it out. Perhaps audio-visual could get it up on the
22 screen, zero in on it a bit. I'm sure it's in there. We probably
23 misnumbered it. So we'll keep looking, thank you. It should be just a
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What we have on the screen now seems to be page
1 number 9 in the map book, but, if I understood you correctly, we need the
2 next page, number 10 of the map book.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct, that's what we have misnumbered,
4 Mr. President, because we've already gone over the one that's on the
5 screen now, but I think we are close to tracking it down, and I really
6 don't have anything else to say about it. It's the map on the board, if
7 audio-visual could zero in on it, I would, of course, like to find it in
8 e-court so that we know it's there for anyone that wants access to it.
9 That's why we print out these in actual size so that you can use them.
10 They are convenient in the computer to zero in on because they do
11 actually blow up, if you want to look on the computer in specific places.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This seems now to be part of the map we see in
13 the original behind the witness.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, we are getting closer. That's the one
15 we've already seen. That's page 10 -- or, yes, that's page 10 of the map
16 book, but the original that goes with it, the purpose of this testimony
17 this afternoon, it seems to be lost in e-court. We'll be able to get
18 that in e-court, Mr. President, it will take a few minutes. Otherwise,
19 if the map is here -- and I don't have any further questions except that
20 I can just wrap up.
21 Q. Mr. Janc, is this a good reflection, does this reflect the kind
22 of work you were doing in making this map book and going to these maps
23 and is this the kind of information this map book was based upon?
24 A. Yes, indeed. In this map number 10, which we can see on the
25 screen now, was created part out of this map which we can see on the
1 wall, and the other part are different two maps which were scanned and
2 then everything was electronically much together, and then we just cut
3 out the part of the map we have been interested in. So that's part of
4 that map, the right part of the map we see on the screen is, indeed, part
5 of this original map.
6 Q. All right.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: At this time then, Your Honours, I would offer
8 the map book into evidence, and that is 06196 and also the electronic
9 copies of the Krivaja 1995 map, which was 00907. The electronic copy of
10 the one we see there now with the handwriting on the side, which is the
11 one we've lost, 00933, currently, but we are going to have to get it a
12 better number than that. Sorry, it will be the same number, it will just
13 be identified. And map 934, which was the map with the deployment of the
14 forces that we had seen on page 10, and map 06214 was the map that -- or
15 the boundaries of the Drina Corps that included Kladanj, the Muslim town
16 of Kladanj in their border. And I think at this stage, I will leave it
17 at that. I don't think we need to see the MIF or any of that material.
18 That was just for information. Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, did I understand you correctly
20 that you are tendering them as five separate exhibits?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, those separate maps, yes. The map book and
22 all its contents, one exhibit.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They all will be received, and I think, because
24 of some confusion, is it perhaps appropriate to have the break now, and
25 during the break you could liaise with the Registry to have the right
1 numbers. And we can, after the break, receive the right exhibit numbers.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm told it's fixed, so 933 should come up as
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm told we can have the exhibit numbers now, all
6 five documents will be received as separate exhibits.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Those will be Exhibit P104 through P108,
8 Your Honours.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. And if -- I did see that it was fixed, we do have it on the
11 screen, if we could just, perhaps, get the witness to confirm that this
12 is the one we've been talking about that's over his left shoulder?
13 A. Yes, indeed, that's the same map.
14 Q. And so it is 933, we are back on track.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, everyone for your patience.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Excuse me. For me, it's not clear yet. You
17 tendered five different documents, that means one map book and four
18 documents. We have heard now that we have one number, P104, for all five
19 exhibits together. Sorry, I didn't realise that. P104 through P108.
20 Everything is fine now. We will have our first break now and resume at
22 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, did you finish your
25 examination-in-chief, it was not absolutely clear for me?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I did, Mr. President. And we do have
2 reproductions of those four maps, if the Court would like them at some
3 point. Ms. Stewart has them here.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
5 Mr. Tolimir, do you have cross-examination for this witness?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I do
7 have some 20 questions or so for this witness. Thank you, if you allow
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please go ahead.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
12 Q. [Interpretation] And once again, I would like to greet all those
13 present and also the witness, and I have a few questions for you,
14 witness. Mr. Janc, you were mentioned here as an investigator of the
15 Prosecution, that was on page 11224 of the transcript, and you were
16 appointed as a member of the investigating team for Srebrenica and the
17 Tolimir case.
18 My question for you: Could you please describe the structure of
19 your team and what is the role of that -- what is your role in that team?
20 A. Yes, I can. In our team, there are three investigators, and I
21 would say five lawyers, and then Case Manager and some language staff, so
22 that's part of the Tolimir trial team. So my role as an investigator is
23 a usual investigative role, so we are conducting interviews with
24 witnesses, victim, suspects, then we have a lot of analysing job. I'm
25 preparing the reports. Then we are collecting evidence, submitting them
1 to evidence unit so, and, this kind of stuff. So any
2 investigative-related tasks.
3 Q. Thank you. Please tell us what do you mean when you say the
4 evidence unit. What is that?
5 A. When I say the evidence unit, it means there is a unit within the
6 OTP which is in charge of dealing with all the evidence which came into
7 the ICTY and later presented in the courtroom. So they are in charge of
8 all the evidence, so when I got, for example, the evidence on the field,
9 I submit, together with the MIF form, this evidence into the unit, and
10 they are in charge of stamping it then and then putting this -- if it is
11 in written form on a system in electronic format, and then store it in
12 vault, so that's their role.
13 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, how many translators do you have
14 because you said there are three investigators, five lawyers, and a
15 number of language staff. So how many translators do you have? Thank
17 A. Directly on our team in Tolimir trial team, there is -- there are
18 two permanent, and then is a language pool which is in charge of the
19 numerous translations for the other teams also, so I think there are two
20 permanent translators -- language assistants to our team.
21 Q. Thank you. Could you tell the Trial Chamber, please, do you work
22 independently, or do you work according to somebody's instructions? In
23 other words, whom do you get your instructions from, and whom do you get
24 assignments from? Thank you.
25 A. Yes, we also get the assignments mainly from the senior trial
1 attorney and the other trial attorneys and the lawyers. So these are the
2 main people which we get these instructions from, but we also do some job
3 on our own initiatives and then we inform about our findings about our
4 new discoveries, the lawyers and the STA. And I apologise, I didn't
5 mention before in our team is also an analyst.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. Please tell me, is Mr. McCloskey the -- at
7 the head of your team? Thank you.
8 A. Yes, indeed, he is senior trial attorney, and he is the head.
9 You can say something like that, yes.
10 Q. Thank you. As a member of the Prosecution team in the Tolimir
11 case, are you obliged to abide by a duty to keep professional secrets
13 A. Yes, we are obliged.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you, for instance, speak in public independently
15 about issues that are relevant to the Prosecution case in this trial, in
16 the Tolimir case?
17 A. No, I cannot speak publicly without a certain permissions which
18 should be given to me.
19 Q. Thank you. Is it your duty, as a member of the investigating
20 team of the Prosecution, to protect the interests of the Prosecution and
21 to co-ordinate your actions and your positions with those of the
22 Prosecution? Thank you.
23 A. Yes, certainly.
24 Q. Thank you. Would you be allowed to speak in public and to
25 actually speak and take positions that differ from those from the
1 official position of the Prosecution of the Tribunal?
2 A. It's not easy comment on that because it's a combined question.
3 Yes, I would be allowed to speak in public, if I have certain permission,
4 so and in that permission is also a kind of instruction about what I'm
5 entitled to talk about, to speak about, and, basically, it wouldn't be
6 possible to talk about something which differ from the official position
7 of the Prosecution.
8 Q. Thank you. Sir, Mr. Janc, I apologise for erroneously addressing
9 you as Mr. Binc [phoen] since this is not going to be the last time that
10 you appear as a witness in this case, could you tell me, please, do you,
11 in any way, have any impact on the actual formation of the position of
12 the Prosecution? Thank you.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Object to vagueness. As the previous question,
14 official position or position, I don't -- how does the witness know what
15 that means. I think he is trying his hardest, but I have no idea -- if
16 he could explain what he means by that, he can --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you explain it a little bit
18 further. What are you asking?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. My question number 7 for Mr. Janc was the following: Would he be
22 allowed to speak in public by diverging from the official positions of
23 the Prosecutor, and he said yes, with permission and with instructions as
24 to what he could -- what issues he could address. And that is why now in
25 my next question I want to know if he is allowed to speak in public
1 independently, and as this is not going to be his last time that he is
2 appearing as a witness, my question now is: Would he actually, in any
3 way, have an impact on the way the Prosecution articulates it's position
4 in the Tolimir case? Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is, again, the same question and we heard
6 the objection of Mr. McCloskey to that.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Same objection. The Prosecution is not a
8 political party. The Prosecutor makes some positions diplomatically in
9 this institution. It may be a fine question, but what does he mean.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I am not sure, Mr. Tolimir, if this is the right
11 person, the witness, Mr. Janc, to explain how the Prosecution, as an
12 institution, articulates its position. He is an investigator employed by
13 the Prosecution of this Tribunal. He can't speak for the Prosecution of
14 the Tribunal. You should clarify, please, your question.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My
16 clarification is as follows: I see that the problem here is the word
17 that I used, "official position," but the Prosecutor actually has an
18 official position in this case, and my question is: Whether Mr. Janc
19 can, in any way, propose any -- anything to the Prosecutor in shaping
20 their position, for instance, Mr. McCloskey's, or does he actually abide
21 by the official position as presented here in this trial. Thank you.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Same objection. This is requiring Mr. Janc to
23 guess what he is talking about, position. Position on what? Position on
25 to a site visit? Position on evidence? What position?
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it could help if I rephrase your
3 question, Mr. Tolimir. Do you, Mr. Janc, have any influence on the way
4 the Prosecution in this case is dealing with this case? Have you a
5 certain influence on Mr. McCloskey and his team how to deal with this
7 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, no, no, I don't have any such
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Mr. Tolimir, please carry
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge.
12 Perhaps the following questions will make this clearer to the witness.
13 In any case, for the most part, I have received my answer, since the
14 answer was actually yes. Thank you. Perhaps the next clarifying
15 question may be this --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the answer was no, not yes.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm content with the
19 answer. I can't follow it on the transcript though because it's not in
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. My next question of the witness, as an OTP investigator, is he
23 obliged to also seek out any exculpatory evidence?
24 A. Yes, indeed, all the time.
25 Q. Thank you. Have you identified any such exculpatory evidence in
1 the Tolimir case?
2 A. I think I did several of them, and in case I came across such
3 evidence, I immediately forward the information to Janet Stewart, who
4 disclosed this information to you.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you recall a particular document and what it
6 referred to?
7 A. No, from the top of my head, I would not be able to recall such
8 document right now.
9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Janc, can you tell us what jobs do you have with
10 the Prosecution of this Tribunal in addition to the tasks you are
11 regularly assigned as part of a team in this case? We have also heard
12 something about your educational background. In any case, could you
13 please tell us anything more about your other duties?
14 A. There is no other duties. There are just these investigative
15 duties, tasks which I have been talking about before, and that's it.
16 Q. Thank you. Does this apply to the other members of the team
17 working on this case as well?
18 A. Yes, I would say so. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. When you testified last, you said you were a
20 Slovenian citizen. Were you, at some point in time, also an SFRY
22 A. Yes, indeed. When I was born, I was born as an SFRY citizen.
23 Q. Thank you. At page 26, lines 19 to 23, you explained that the
24 map collection was put together by the trial team, and you explained that
25 the geographical information system assisted in that process in the
1 selection and processing of maps. My question of you is this: Did you
2 personally participate in the creation of any point maps, when used as
3 part of the atlas that was presented on the 15th of April, 2010, for the
4 first time in this case?
5 A. So I haven't personally created that map, but I was present at
6 some points where some of those maps were created, but not for all of
8 Q. Mr. Janc, tell us this, please: A moment ago during
9 examination-in-chief, you said that the map behind you was seised during
10 a search carried out by the Tribunal alongside NATO; is that correct or
11 have I misunderstood you?
12 A. Yes, that's what I testified about. Yes, the map on my
13 right-hand side, the Krivaja 1995 map, that's one which was seised at
14 that time in 1998.
15 Q. Thank you. A moment ago you said that a map was seised from the
16 Zvornik Brigade. This makes it two. During the NATO operation, were any
17 other maps seised and, if so, could you tell us how many?
18 A. I know a lot of other stuff, documents were seised at that time.
19 Yes, and I am sure there were also other maps because I have such -- such
20 a table, I think, on my desk of the -- all the Zvornik Brigade seised
21 maps. So there is a number of them.
22 Q. Thank you. Is it customary for an army which fought the VRS to
23 take part in the process of collecting evidence for these Tribunals? I
24 have in mind NATO because they did so, and that was also confirmed by a
25 number of witnesses in this case.
1 A. I think it was nothing wrong with it.
2 Q. Thank you. I wasn't asking you whether there was anything wrong
3 with it, but whether it was customary for an armed force, which was the
4 opposing side to the VRS, to collect evidence used to be in a case such
5 as this one heard before this Tribunal?
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is well beyond the scope, into an area of
8 politics and geopolitics, and I would object.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If the witness can give the account of his
10 knowledge, then it could be appropriate, but Mr. Tolimir, you should be
11 focused on what this witness could give evidence about.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge. I
13 believe this is an important issue because it concerns the collection of
14 evidence, because a party to the conflict collects evidence against the
15 opposing party. I merely wanted to put this to the witness and get an
16 answer which would be either a yes or a no, and I think the witness can
17 answer that. I did not intend to go into the sphere of politics.
18 THE WITNESS: I'm afraid I cannot comment on that because it was
19 a long time ago in 1998, and so I cannot comment on that, so I was not
20 part of this institution at this time, so I don't want to go into this
21 decision, discussions about the decisions, so I cannot comment to that, I
22 am afraid.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we please have
24 map number 9. It is the map book 65 ter number 06196, indicating the
25 deployment of VRS forces as well as those of the 2nd Corps of the
1 Army of B&H.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think you are referring to page 9 of the map
3 book, e-court page 11.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. I wanted
5 to see the map number 9, if that could be shown. Thank you. This is
6 what I wanted. Thank you.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. We can see here that the positions of the VRS and of the
9 2nd Corps of the AB&H are approximately similar to those indicated on
10 maps 5 and 6. My question is this: When producing the map, did you take
11 into account the situation as it was on the ground, and did you take the
12 borders of the enclave to be as those outlining the territory controlled
13 by the AB&H or did you take the borders as agreed between the VRS, the
14 Army of B&H and UNPROFOR when the agreement on the demilitarised zone was
15 concluded? That would be my question.
16 A. We mostly relied on data which we found on the maps created by
17 the VRS, as you can see it here. So we have used, for example, the
18 borders, the red and the blue lines within the enclave to create our
19 maps. So we have used these sources which I explained in detail -- in
20 detail during my examination-in-chief.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
23 map number 6.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Should be e-court 8.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness also
1 be shown the Prosecutor 65 ter number 3. Thank you. I see one document
2 here. But these are actually two agreements signed by Ratko Mladic and
3 Sefer Halilovic on the 8th of May, 1993. I'm interested in Article 1 of
4 the agreement on the demilitarisation of Srebrenica and Zepa, concluded
5 between Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic and General Sefer Halilovic on
6 May 8, 1993
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, is there an English translation?
8 I'm told there's no English translation.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is 65 ter page 3 in English and
10 2 in the B/C/S. It is shown here. You can see what the number is on the
11 top of the page. I will read out for the transcript.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. This is my question: Article 1 of this agreement, at page 3 in
14 the English and 2 in the B/C/S, which is relevant to the production of
15 documents, of maps of Srebrenica and Zepa is --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There's no English translation. You are
17 referring to page 2 -- page 3 of the English translation. We don't have
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. It is Prosecutor 65 ter
20 page 1 in English. 65 ter number 3. Prosecution document. 65 ter
21 number 3, Prosecution document page 1 in the English version.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I am, again, told there is no English translation
23 under this number.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Defence received this
25 document in both English and B/C/S, and the number was 65 ter 3. Perhaps
1 Prosecution could assist us?
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the Prosecution is in deep deliberations.
3 Can you assist us, Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: We haven't heard of this document as used before,
5 so we haven't been able to double-check if it's got an English
6 translation. It does and we can eventually dig it up, and I'm not sure
7 how long it will take us, but we can find that.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But, Mr. Tolimir, not to lose time, you could
9 read out the specific portion and then we will have it -- the translation
10 on the record, and the witness can listen to it.
11 Please carry on.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused, however, please read slowly.
13 Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. It is Article 1 of the
15 agreement. I quote. Thank you:
16 "To demilitarise the areas of Srebrenica and Zepa. The
17 demilitarised areas will include the area inside the confrontation lines.
18 UNPROFOR commander shall, following consultations, mark exact boundaries
19 on the ground. At a later stage, the parties to this agreement can agree
20 orally or in writing to enlarge the area of the demilitarised zone."
21 That is Article 1 of the agreement.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. My question is this, you can see the text, and I'm certain that
24 both the Chamber and the Prosecutor are familiar with this document, and
25 I believe it will eventually be found in English. My question of the
1 witness is this: When determining the boundaries of the enclave, did you
2 have in mind the agreement on the demilitarisation and the lines of
3 confrontation between the VRS and Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina as they were
4 in May 1993? Thank you.
5 A. My answer would be that we relied upon the maps which were
6 created by the VRS mainly, and the area of the enclaves which was at the
7 time, which means in July 1995. So this document is from 1993, so I
8 think that we -- we have not considered this document, but we relied on
9 the maps which were the closest to the events of the fall of Srebrenica
10 and Zepa enclaves.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document and
13 I will have the next question of the witness.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I won't object, but if the General could make an
16 effort to have English, we'd appreciate it. Also, if he could follow the
17 rule in providing us materials he is going to use for cross-examination.
18 This would have avoided this particular problem.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This document will be marked for identification,
20 depending on receiving and up loading an English translation.
21 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D21 marked for
22 identification, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. On your
1 request, I read out Article 1 of the agreement. And we sent Article 1 of
2 the agreement to the Prosecution by e-mail, and I believe they already
3 have it.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. My exterior question is this: Was it important to have
6 information on the situation with the demilitarised zone, as it was in
7 May 1993 when the overall process with the maps was underway?
8 A. No, I think not. The important information was what it was on
9 the ground in 1995, in July of 1995. That was the most important in
10 creation of these maps.
11 Q. Thank you. Is this piece of information important to analyse the
12 cause of the conflict between the two parties and a possible solution
13 they have agreed upon?
14 A. Important for what? You mean for creation of these maps?
15 Q. Is it important, for example, for this Chamber which needs to
16 decide about the conflict and its causes between the two sides who were
17 parties to this agreement, was it important to have the boundaries of the
18 demilitarised zone known as they were at the time when it was actually
19 declared a demilitarised zone?
20 A. I am afraid I cannot answer this question, if it would be
21 important. You know, it's kind of -- everything might be important, but
22 so -- but for creation of other maps, we didn't seek these documents to
23 be of such important that we would use it.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. For the transcript, I'd like to state that
25 in 1993, the Srebrenica demilitarised zone encompassed an area of 5 and a
1 half square kilometres, as we will see a bit later on a map. It was 5.5
2 times 2.5 square kilometres. We will look at map number 5 and you will
3 see the difference in size. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is your question, Mr. Tolimir?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question is this, could we
6 please have map number 5 first, and then the witness can tell us whether
7 the demilitarised zone was enlarged in relation to the agreement.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Number 5 should be in e-court, page number 7.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We can see
10 the map now.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. I would kindly ask the witness to indicate the boundaries of the
13 zone, he needn't necessarily agree with the size I mentioned, and it is
14 up to you to decide upon, but I would just like him to indicate the zone
16 A. So it is on the bottom part of this map, if you scroll down. So
17 you can see the line which goes around Srebrenica and with the letters
18 from A up to M. These dots and the letters are the DutchBat
19 check-points, and this is the situation as it was on the ground in July
21 Q. Thank you. Let's stay with this map. In the left-hand side
22 corner at the bottom, we see a scale used to determine the distance of
23 any two points. Can you see that, Mr. Janc?
24 A. Yes, I can see that, yes.
25 Q. Based on that, can you tell us what was the width and length of
1 the Srebrenica enclave if we were to use this particular scale because a
2 red line -- sorry, please go ahead.
3 A red line on the scale is the size of 1 kilometre, you can see
4 what the ratio is. Since you are an expert in maps, can you tell us
5 approximately what was the length and width of the zone?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That is readily evident by the map
7 itself. I don't understand the utility of such a question. It's right
8 there in front of us. It's no test of credibility or anything else.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you want to have a comment on the map, then
10 you should put a question to that.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Since Mr. McCloskey
12 said that it was evident, could we just have the witness tell us the
13 evident part, what he can see.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we all can see the map, the lines on
15 the map, the dots, and the scale on the left-hand bottom corner. I think
16 this is really sufficient for your purposes. And now in connection to
17 that, put your question, please. The witness is not here for counting.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Janc, can you tell us, as an OTP investigator, whether you
21 know that the Srebrenica enclave, as of May 1993 up until June 1995, was
22 enlarged by some 150 square kilometres? Thank you.
23 A. No, I cannot comment on that. I'm not aware of the exact
24 enlargement. There might be some but I'm not sure about it, so I would
25 rather not comment on that. But I think the witnesses will come to
1 explain this in detail in this case because they were studying this issue
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness now please be
5 shown map number 11 from the map book that was proposed for admittance by
6 the Prosecution. Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It might be in e-court, page number 13.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. This is a map that the
9 witness said was a map of the western Balkans. Maybe that can be of
10 assistance, thank you. So map number 1 from the map book. Thank you.
11 This is for the transcript.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have one map on the screen before us. Is that
13 what you are asking for? No, it is not.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think he is looking for e-court number 3.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Thank
16 you, that is the map that we have before us now in e-court.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. I would like the witness to tell us why he used a New York Times
19 map of the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia? Thank you.
20 A. I think this map was obtained a long time ago by the Tribunal,
21 and it was used for most of the cases so far, and as well as for this
22 case. There is no particular reason why we have used this map, so it's
23 just the matter that this one was available and we have used that one.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I can't read New York Times. It's
1 written here "The Times" map of the western Balkans. "The Times". Just
2 for clarification.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. The witness can, perhaps, clarify and tell us whether this is a
6 map taken from the New York Times, or rather, I apologise, from
7 "The Times," and here we have a smaller version of that map. Thank you.
8 A. Yeah, that one, as I understand it, this map was produced by
9 "The Times," and then it was publicly available and someone bought it
10 here from the Tribunal and rescan it and now it's used.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us for the transcript, please, what year
12 this map was produced in? Thank you.
13 A. I will try to find this information from the map itself, but
14 there is no such information, so I am afraid I cannot produce this
15 information, but, as I was told by the one who bought this map, it was
16 bought in 1994, so it must be produced around that time or before that.
17 Q. Thank you. Perhaps I can be of assistance. You provided to my
18 legal advisor a copy of a map which reads, "Zagreb 1993." So would you
19 agree with me that this map was produced in Zagreb in 1993 and then
20 republished in "The Times"? Thank you.
21 A. So it's speculation, but I can agree if that's the same map and
22 everything there is the same, it can be, indeed, the case that it was
23 produced in 1993.
24 Q. Thank you. Can you just tell us for the transcript whether in
25 addition to the former republics, Yugoslav Republics, the map of the
1 western Balkans also includes some other states? And if so, what are
2 they? Thank you.
3 A. That's, I think, difficult to answer, which part of the western
4 Balkan. So I don't know the exact country which are part of it, because
5 I know even for my country, Slovenia
6 they say it's not. So I cannot say anything about it. So, but I think
7 most of the republics we can see on this map, they are part of it, yes.
8 Q. Thank you. We can see Slovenia
9 belong to this same region? Thank you.
10 A. I've just given the answer to that, that some people say yes, it
11 is part of it, some people say it's not, so it's somewhere there, yes.
12 Q. Thank you. So would this then be a political or geographic
13 issue, because we are discussing geography here? Thank you.
14 A. I would say, you know, the opinion in my country, so I think it
15 more relates to what the people would rather see than what is indeed the
16 case. So, but, yes, what we were -- what we have learned in our schools,
17 it is part of the western Balkan.
18 Q. Thank you. Because when I went to school and learned, the
19 Balkans is a mountain and that is how the Balkan peninsula actually got
20 it's name. Now that same mountain is called the Stara Planina, the old
21 mountain, and it is in Bulgaria
22 Black Sea
23 My question for you is: As an investigator for the OTP, did the
24 indication of the countries of Eastern Europe, which are not members of
25 the European Unions, and when you indicated those states that are members
1 of the European Union, did you actually adapt this map to reflect that?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Did the European
3 Union use those terms for non-European members, non-European Union
5 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that, so, sorry, I cannot answer
6 what these European Union used for their purposes.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Thank you. But my question is: Did you, as an OTP investigator,
9 refer to this area of the western Balkans as countries of the
10 south-eastern Europe
11 and is that a political rather than a geographic term to determine the
12 geographic position of those countries? Thank you.
13 A. It's rather the geographical position, geographical term of these
15 Q. Thank you. Did Slovenia
16 region of the Balkan states?
17 A. I think the country was always there at the same place.
18 Q. Thank you. Very well. We will now move on to this small map in
19 the lower left corner in order to see whether there are any other points
20 that we differ or can agree on. The Prosecutor's choice to use this map
21 as evidence in this case, we would like to try and use this map which
22 shows the ethnic composition. And I'm referring to the small map. I do
23 not expect you to give me specific answers, but just some general answers
24 which I'm sure you will be able to provide as an OTP investigator.
25 My first question is this: Could you please read for us from
1 this map the ethnic groups that are listed on the left-hand side of the
2 map, and if you can't see it clearly, perhaps we can zoom in on the
3 smaller map. Thank you.
4 A. Yeah, it's hard to see. I would rather see the zoom in, but I am
5 afraid it would be the same. I can try.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me. As I mentioned --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- this little corner of the map was never
9 something that the Prosecution intended. If General Tolimir -- we can
10 agree right now that this is not part of the evidence of the case and it
11 can be disregarded, if that's what he would prefer. It was never meant
12 to be part of the case. If he wants to use it as his part of the case,
13 that's, of course, his prerogative, but I can agree with him that it's
14 not part of the case, if he would like. It's really not readable in this
15 context, and I'm sure we could come up with one that is readable, but it
16 was never meant to be part of the Prosecution's case.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We heard your position, Mr. McCloskey, already
18 earlier, but on the other hand, you provided this map which was created
19 by "The Times" to the Chamber and the parties, and if the -- Mr. Tolimir
20 want to use it, I think, during cross-examination, he may put some
21 questions to that to the witness.
22 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Could
24 the witness please, Mr. Janc, answer the question, and if he cannot see
25 clearly, my legal assistant has a blown up copy of that map from which he
1 can read. Would you allow us to provide this to the witness so he can
2 answer my question.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please. But through the ...
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have it here now, and I see it's the same.
5 And I can read it from here. So from the left-hand side, I'll go from
6 the top to the bottom. The nations and national minorities. First one,
7 Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Muslims, Serbs, Slovenes, Albanians,
8 Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians, Italians, gypsies, Romanians, Ruthenians,
9 Slovaks, Turks, Vlachs, Yugoslavs and regional affiliation.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you. So you can read this, because at the time when this
12 map was tendered it was said that it cannot even be read. But my next
13 question to you is this: Mr. Janc, what is the difference between the
14 ethnic aspect and the religious affiliation on the other hand, if you can
15 answer that question, thank you; if not, thank you in any case.
16 A. I would rather not because I'm not an expert in that field. So I
17 would avoid these kind of questions. I mean answers.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what the difference is between the
19 groups under number 4 and 16? Under number 4 we have Muslims, and
20 under 16 we have Turks.
21 A. So the same as before, so I would not rather answer this question
22 because I'm, indeed, not expert in this field, especially not in other
23 part in Slovenia
24 [indiscernible] Italian and Hungarian, and that's all I would -- can
25 comment about it.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, please, as an OTP investigator,
2 where Muslims and how they happen to be in the Balkans? Where they came
3 from. Thank you.
4 A. It's a historical question, so and, again, I'm not an expert in
5 that field in history, so I would rather avoid it.
6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether the Muslims in this area that
7 we are talking about, and that is an issue here in this trial, as an
8 ethnic group actually came into existence after the Turks came to the
9 Balkans? Thank you.
10 A. The same as before, I cannot comment on this because simply I'm
11 not very well educated in this field.
12 Q. Thank you. Can you answer this question: Did the Islam faith,
13 as shown on this map, come to this area with the Turks, and did they
14 force the local population because they were the power, the -- they were
15 the occupying power, did they force the local population to take on that
16 new faith?
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think this is far beyond what you
18 can expect from this witness. Several times he explained he is not a
19 historical expert, not a religious expert, not a expert on ethnological
20 questions. You should really focus on his expertise and his evidence in
21 chief. Please carry on.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I only
23 asked about this exhibit which shows the ethnic composition, and I just
24 asked this witness because this exhibit was actually tendered through
25 this witness to try and answer this question. But I can move on to
1 another question. Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please do so.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is very important because we
4 will see documents here where we will find indication printed or
5 handwritten where the terms Muslims and Turks are used as synonymous, and
6 it is very important for us to hear from this witness, because it is
7 through this witness that this map is being tendered, to explain these
8 terms. And if you feel there is no need for that, that's all right, but
9 I'm just saying that there will be other documents where we will see
10 these terms used, and I believe this witness can or should explain it.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you going to put a question to the witness?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can the witness just
13 draw on this map the areas where these ethnic groups shown under the
14 legend, can he mark those ethnic groups on the map. Thank you. Can he
15 show where they were actually deployed. And if that's a problem, could
16 he just indicate where the Turks were, just this one ethnic group. Thank
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is no longer appropriate, Mr. Tolimir,
19 because it is very clear that this witness didn't produce this map. It
20 was received by the Prosecution from the magazine, "The Times", and it
21 was not used in any way by the Prosecution in examination-in-chief. The
22 witness could only do what everybody could do, and if you compare the
23 legend and the colours, I don't do that, then you can draw your
24 conclusion by yourself. The witness is not helpful in that way. Please
25 carry on. Your question.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. The map that we have
2 here, which was tendered as an exhibit, shows where these groups can be
3 found, and that is why I'm putting these questions about this exhibit;
4 and if you allow me, I feel that this is an issue that will be of
5 interest and that is at issue in this trial. Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please put a question to the witness.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Can you explain for this Chamber what the term "Yugoslav" refers
10 to. So we'll move on from the Turks and Muslims to Yugoslavs. Thank
12 A. No, the same as before, I'm not an expert in that field, so I
13 would avoid that answer.
14 Q. Thank you. That may be very relevant because they kept changing
15 sides in the conflict, including in this war and this will be relevant
16 when we discuss the groups in the course of this trial.
17 Thank you. Now, just can you answer this: Did the data provided
18 on this map, or actually, did you compare the data from this map to the
19 data as provided by the 1991 census? Thank you. And this census was
20 recognised by all the Yugoslav Republics.
21 A. If you mean this ethnic composition map, no, I didn't do that.
22 Q. Thank you. I did mean the ethnic composition. I would also like
23 to ask you whether the facts, as shown here about the ethnic groups, were
24 compared to the censuses that were conducted in the republics after 1995
25 after the war?
1 A. No, they were not.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness now please be
4 shown map number 9 entitled, "Deployment of Hours, Enemy as well as
5 UNPROFOR Forces." Thank you.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Is this a military map?
8 A. Yes, this is a military map. VRS military map.
9 Q. Thank you. Do commanders use military maps to provide reliable
10 information on the situation in the territory shown on that map?
11 A. No, we are again coming to the expertise. I'm not an expert on,
12 so I would rather avoid this question, and that you ask some military
13 expert about it because I'm more investigative expert than a military
15 Q. Thank you. Can you then, at least, tell us how you got this map?
16 A. This map was seised or obtained together with VRS Drina Corps
17 collection in 2004. And the original is on my left-hand side.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we next see map number 10,
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Should be e-court page number 12.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we please enlarge
23 the map so as to be able to see what is written on it.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Janc, have you ever seen the coat of arms of Republika Srpska
1 or the FRY or any state populated by Serbs, for that matter?
2 A. Yes, I think I did.
3 Q. Thank you. You said here that we see the four Ss on that map,
4 you stated that for the record; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct. That's what we can see on this map.
6 Q. Thank you. What do you base your conclusion on because there are
7 no four Ss here?
8 A. There is a cross and inside the cross there are four Ss, these
9 are Cyrillic letters. I am aware of that fact that this is written in
11 Q. Thank you. Can one write the letter S the other way around, as
12 is the case with the two left-hand side semicircles on this cross?
13 A. Yeah, you are right. I think I'm not. Only what is on the
14 right-hand side. This is S or Latin C, that is Cyrillic S; so on the
15 left-hand side, we have, you know, other way around, so again I would not
16 rather go into discussion about the Cyrillic language and script because
17 definitely I'm not an expert in that area.
18 Q. Thank you. I'd rather not have gone into this topic had you not
19 mentioned it, and I believe it is necessary to explain the four letters
20 that we can see here. As you have identified already, there are no four
21 Ss here, as a matter of fact there are only two; isn't that correct?
22 A. Yes, if you say so, that's your script, so I can agree with you,
24 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me this: Did you know that as of 1402,
25 each and every Serbian state in its coat of arms contained a similar
1 sign, a similar symbol, the symbol of the cross with the four "ocilos"?
2 THE INTERPRETER: O-c-i-l-o-s.
3 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not aware of that.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness
5 please be shown 1D80. Thank you.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Can you see the cross and four "ocilos" in front of you on the
9 A. Yes, I can see the cross and some letters in it, so which looks
10 like "E" to me, so.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you know that this was the coat of arm of the new
12 Byzantine empire as it appeared on their flag in the 14th century?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. This was the flag of the Byzantine empire. It meant,
15 [B/C/S spoken] meaning, translated, the emperor of emperors governs the
16 empires. Hence, it has nothing to do with the letter S or Serbs, it was
17 simply copied from the Byzantine flag dating back to the 14th century.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I would request the ability to
19 cross-examine Mr. Tolimir. If he is going to continue to testify, I
20 should have the right to cross-examine him or he should indicate that he
21 is providing statements pursuant to the Rule that allows him to do so;
22 but not in this manner, it's not relevant the way he is doing it now. If
23 he is continuing, I would like to cross-examine him on this issue.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please put questions to this
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked him whether he knew that
2 this was the new coat of arms of the Byzantine empire in the 14th
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And he answered this question. He didn't know.
5 Please carry on.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you know what, in Byzantine, it means [B/C/S spoken]?
9 A. No, not at all.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you know that these Byzantine words had nothing
11 to do with the Serbs?
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: He answered already that he didn't know. You
13 should leave this topic.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will move on to another topic,
15 but I merely wanted to point out that these words and these signs speak
16 for themselves, so as not to be misled about the symbol itself. This is
17 the sign of a cross --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, it's not necessary to explain
19 anything further. Just put questions to this witness which are relevant
20 for this witness and for you.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Witness, the marking on the map as it is, the sign of the cross
23 and the four "ocilos," could we deem it to be a symbol of the Serbs or
25 A. Yes, I think so. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. In military practice, is it customary to use
2 simplified symbols such as flags and coats of arms to mark territories
3 which a certain armed force controls?
4 A. I am afraid it's again a question for a military expert. I
5 cannot comment on it.
6 Q. Thank you. Can you comment this: Do you know or do you believe
7 that in any territory liberated in the course of an armed conflict is
8 marked by a symbol of the force taking control of that territory? If you
9 know an answer to the question.
10 A. No, I'm not aware of any, so I cannot help you.
11 Q. Thank you. In Slovenia
12 it change its flag and coat of arms?
13 A. Yes, I do remember that was the case, yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Does any armed force have the right to mark its
15 territory it had taken over?
16 A. So, again, regarding the arms forces, I am not an expert on, so I
17 cannot comment on this question again.
18 Q. Thank you. Perhaps this question will clarify it. Did
19 General Krstic write anything on the map?
20 A. Yes, on this one, yes, we can see his handwriting.
21 Q. Precisely. He also wrote a date, the 27th of July, 1995. He
22 signed it, stamped it with the stamp of the VRS. Can you see that?
23 A. Yes, that's correct. I can see that.
24 Q. Thank you. The drawing Krstic made, is it a simplified Serbian
25 coat of arms, indicating that on that day it became part of the territory
1 of Republika Srpska?
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We first clarify, which map you are referring to
3 in the moment, and could we have that on the screen again, please. Is it
4 that map on the left side of the screen?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. The map is on the
6 witness's left-hand side. He can see it.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you referring to the map now on the screen?
8 Have a look on the screen, please, Mr. Tolimir.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, I am referring to
10 the map on the screen. If we move slightly to the right --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think what we are looking for is the electronic
13 version of the map, not the map book reproduction. 933. Back to that
14 one again.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We still waiting for
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will appear on the screen. Judge Nyambe has a
18 question to that. Perhaps we can --
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, that is the map.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Remove the flag on the right-hand side so that we
21 have more -- yes, thank you. Now a question by Judge Nyambe.
22 JUDGE NYAMBE: Actually my question has been answered by the
23 enlargement of the map because I was looking for the signature made by
24 the General on the map. But, maybe, just for the avoidance of doubt, if
25 you can indicate on the map where you say the General signed?
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. I can make a circle around it. Just a
2 second. Okay. There are two signatures. The first one is up here and
3 the stamp underneath. And the second one is here. So these are his
5 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, for clarification should we receive
7 that as an exhibit? You are not tendering it?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have no objection to having this
9 admitted. I merely wanted to state -- well, I see Mr. McCloskey is on
10 his feet, and I will then state my argument.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: We agree with the General that this should be
13 admitted. I would also ask the General if he is agreeing that this is an
14 authentic VRS map signed, in fact, by General Krstic.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, Mr. McCloskey, the accused is not a
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: As a representative of himself, I'm asking for a
18 stipulation on a matter of evidence. Since he is offering it into
19 evidence, it's incumbent upon him to prove its authenticity. And I think
20 it's something we agree on, that is all I'm asking. He seems to be
21 implying that in his questions, so I'm taking this opportunity, because I
22 don't see him otherwise.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you like to comment on that, Mr. Tolimir?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly. I only wanted to ask
25 the witness about something that found its way into the transcript. I
1 wanted to ask those two questions, by your leave, which have to do with
2 this part of the map, in view of Judge Nyambe's question.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I believe it's incumbent upon
4 Mr. Tolimir, representing himself, to tell the Court, as he is offering
5 this into evidence, whether he believes it's authentic or not. That's
6 just a foundational issue. He should be able to tell you whether he
7 believes this to be authentic. If he thinks it's a falsehood or some
8 creation of the Prosecution, we should know that as well.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber states that no party tendered the
11 marking on the map as an exhibit, but we have the explanation of
12 everybody on the record, and I think, Mr. McCloskey, it is not
13 appropriate to ask questions to the accused about his opinion if he can
14 state something. Earlier today, you, yourself, indicated that the
15 accused is not a witness, he is not in the position to give a statement;
16 therefore, it's not appropriate to put this request to him by you.
17 That's the position of this Chamber, and I think we should carry on.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Then I must change my
19 position and object to his offering this into evidence, giving no
20 foundation whatsoever for it.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's also the position of the Chamber, the map
22 with the markings will not be received as an exhibit.
23 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have stated already
25 that I put these questions because of the transcript, not because of the
1 map itself. When the witness was questioned by the OTP, the transcript
2 reflected that he had stated that these were the four Ss; but if you ask
3 any Serb, he or she would never say that these were four Ss but only two,
4 on the left-hand side, there are two letters which are not part of our
5 alphabet --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are not interested in any discussion about
7 what happened in the court. I think we are running out of time. We must
8 have our second break now. And, please, then prepare further
9 cross-examination and put questions to this witness. We should have a
10 certain progress. Thank you very much.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I conclude this topic with
14 two brief questions which could be answered with a yes or no?
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we resume now and resume at ten
16 minutes past 6.00, and then you can put the relevant questions to the
18 --- Recess taken at 5.43 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 6.13 p.m.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please carry on with your questions
21 for the witness, but bear in mind, in fact you have 30 minutes left. You
22 indicated two hours and --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I would like to ask the witness, as I see and look at this map
1 and everything that is written on it, whether after everything that has
2 been said here, this still resembles the four Ss or, in fact, some other
3 symbol or mark?
4 A. It may also be some other mark because I'm not an expert in these
5 marks so it can be.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, the marking from topography where crosses are
7 used as well, actually, would it be of any assistance if you read what is
8 written to the right of this mark?
9 A. I can't read it from here, so I would rather get the translation,
10 so I cannot read the Cyrillic not very well, so I cannot read what is
11 written there.
12 Q. Thank you. Have you prepared the translation of these maps for
13 the Trial Chamber, the English translation? Thank you.
14 A. Yes, I think there it is one. It was on the screen before, so
15 there should be one, the translation of this map.
16 Q. Thank you. If the Trial Chamber needs it, can we have this
17 translation, although we've seen it before. If not, I can read what is
18 written there. It says, and there is a signature and stamp by
19 General-Major Krstic, "Srebrenica was Serbian and is Serbian now. The
20 12th of July, 1995."
21 And at the bottom it says, "Zepa too is Serbian, 27th of July,
22 1995." Major-General Radislav Krstic, who also affixed a stamp there.
23 And we see on the stamp, we also see the symbol that is now shown in its
24 graphic form on the map.
25 Is it correct that what I've read out is what is actually written
1 here on the map?
2 A. Yes, I agree with you, it's correct.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness now
4 please be shown 1D, pages 82 and 83. And 4, 84.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Here we see the fourth page. Can you see the cross on this coat
7 of arms?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is this the coat of arms of the Republika Srpska? Is this the
10 official coat of arms and have you seen it before?
11 A. I've seen it before, and I think it is.
12 Q. Thank you. Does this symbol on the map on the left-hand side
13 coincide, is it similar to the symbol that we see here on this coat arms?
14 A. Yeah, part of it. It's similar. It's a cross and these four
15 letters there. That's similar, yes.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see number 3
18 from document 1D80. And number 2.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. What can we see here, what can you tell us?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see the image that
22 we just saw before this one. Thank you. Thank you.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Now, what can you see here?
25 A. Actually, it should be a symbol from, I don't know, it's my pure
1 speculation now, but from the area of former Yugoslavia somewhere. I
2 don't know from. It's written there from 1804 up to 1941, so, I haven't
3 seen this symbol before.
4 Q. Thank you. This symbol actually represents the coat of arms of
5 the Socialist Republic of Serbia from 1963 when Serbia was part of the
6 same country that Slovenia
7 well. Thank you.
8 Now, can we see on this coat of arms a similar symbol as the one
9 that we see on the map?
10 A. Yes, the letters are similar. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 2 of
13 this document. Thank you. Thank you.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Can you tell us what we see before us now?
16 A. It's written down underneath, so it's coat of arms of Serbia
17 Q. Thank you. Is that the official coat of arms of the Republic of
19 A. Again, I'm not an expert in that, but I think it is, yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Do we see on it the same symbol as we see on the map?
21 Thank you.
22 A. Yes, indeed.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
25 document, 1D80 into evidence. Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D22, Your Honours.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness now
4 please be shown map number 11. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: E-court it should be page number 13 [Realtime
6 transcript read in error "30"].
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Can you show or indicate here where the hill, the highest
10 elevation point above Zepa is?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the name of the
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Could you now please mark it because we'll need this for the
16 witnesses that are yet to come. Thank you.
17 A. Yes, can you repeat which hill, the name of the hill?
18 Q. Zlovrh. Thank you.
19 A. Yes, I can. I'll mark it.
20 Q. Thank you. You said here --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, it's still not marked yet.
22 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'd just like to make a correction at line 16,
1 page 60, it's recorded page number 30, but it's page number 13. Just for
2 clarification. Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Janc, please tell us why did you measure the distance driving
6 a vehicle between places, and did this reflect the actual situation as it
7 was at the time of the conflicts in terms of the road conditions? Thank
9 A. Yeah, we measured these distances just to get a sense of it how
10 far these places are from each other; and, of course, we took into
11 considerations that the conditions are most probably not the same as they
12 were in 1995, so that's why I emphasised last time that these are rough
14 Q. Thank you. Did you measure the distance between Borik, Kravica
15 and Pilica? Thank you.
16 A. No, that distance was not measured. But I think that we
17 provide -- I'm not sure with this map, but I know we have distances
18 between these places which can be provided.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
21 map number 9. Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you tender this map marked by the
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D23, Your Honours.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now please see
3 map number 9. Enlarged.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Please mark on this map, if you can, Borik, Potocari, Kravica,
6 and Branjevo. Can you mark it in green ink, thank you.
7 A. Yes, I can, but I think -- just a second. I will start with
9 Q. Borik, that's in the Zepa area.
10 A. Yes, can we scroll down a little bit. Yes. I circled here, it's
11 a little bit more left, just a few centimetres.
12 Q. Thank you. Would you now, please, in the Srebrenica area mark
13 Kravica, Borik, Pilica, and Potocari. Kravica, Pilica, Potocari and
14 Branjevo. Not Borik, sorry. Thank you.
15 A. Just a second, I'll put Borik as B here, so that's Borik area.
16 And for the Srebrenica part, we would need to scroll up.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The problem, if you do that, you will lose the
18 markings. Mr. Tolimir, it would be helpful if we could receive this
19 marking as a separate exhibit and then carry on with the other markings
20 you wish to get.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. For us it would be
22 useful to have all these markings on one and the same map for the
23 witnesses that are yet to come, so if possible, could he please mark the
24 areas in Srebrenica and then we can deal with Borik later on more easily.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If we want to have everything on the same map, we
2 should start again from the beginning, scroll down a little bit and the
3 witness is asked to mark the location again.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, all these locations are not on
5 this map. There is one map in the book where all of the locations are
6 already listed, that may be more helpful. But it's clear no matter where
7 you scroll this map, you are not going to see some of these locations on
8 it. So perhaps if we -- if he looks at e-court map number 10, which is
9 page 8, all those locations he is interested are clearly there on that
10 map and a legend that shows how far they are.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would that be helpful for you, Mr. Tolimir?
12 Perhaps easier. Could we have that map on the screen.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I agree. So let the
14 witness be shown map number 10. Thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Page number 12 of this exhibit.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's actually page 8 of the exhibit, e-court
17 number 10. Sorry.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now it's clear.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: You had the green one, it's the light green one.
20 E-court number 10, you had it for awhile and you need to make it a little
21 bit smaller, a little bit smaller than that and you'll see the whole
22 region, Rogatica to Bijeljina and beyond.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But not all the locations Mr. Tolimir has
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sure Mr. Janc can help Mr. Tolimir with
1 anything that is not listed on the map. You got the major locations, but
2 Mr. Janc will, I'm sure, be able to help.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If that could be zoomed in a little bit and the
4 relevant area. Yes. Perhaps now the witness can mark the locations of
5 the different villages.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can mark almost all of them on this picture,
7 but Branjevo. I can see it's further north, but I can do for the others,
8 if that helps.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Thank you, that will be helpful for our upcoming witnesses.
11 Thank you.
12 A. I'll start with Borik. Down on the south.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should put a number 1.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes. Number 1 --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is Borik.
16 THE WITNESS: -- is for Borik. Then next one I requested was, I
17 think, Kravica. We can see Kravica here, it's written.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just encircle it, please.
19 THE WITNESS: And this is number 2. Then we have Potocari, I
20 think it was also the place. Potocari, number 3. And which else was
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you. Branjevo.
24 A. Yes, Branjevo is -- I cannot see it on this map, it's further
25 north, north of Zvornik, so we have to save this first and then try with
1 another one.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly lean back because
3 there's a feedback effect. Thank you.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Indicate with an arrow the direction where it is. Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please put the name of Branjevo somewhere on the
7 top of the map. Put a number 4 to that and perhaps an arrow in which
8 direction it should be. Is that sufficient, Mr. Tolimir?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, that is sufficient.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And I would just ask the witness to also indicate the axis of
12 movement from Srebrenica towards Tuzla
13 travelled along. Thank you.
14 A. So it's this direction to the north. It's number 5.
15 Q. Thank you. Could you please write in your own handwriting
17 can write Tuzla
18 this is in the direction of Tuzla
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this into
20 evidence for use with future witnesses.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This marked map will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D25, Your Honours.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Can you tell us how many people worked on preparing this
1 collection of maps?
2 A. I would say four or five, something like that. But some of them
3 were created already before, so at least five.
4 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, why is it that you did not produce a
5 map showing the BH Army column as an actual force that was on the ground
6 at the time?
7 A. But there is a map with arrows showing the BH Army column and
8 which is going from Srebrenica up to the north. There is a map number 5
9 and 6, I would say.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we then pull up that map,
12 please, where we can see the arrows indicating the movement of the
13 column. Thank you.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Map 5 is e-court 7.
15 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think the best map is number 5. And we can
16 see here red arrows, so that is the movement of the column.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you. If you can, could you please produce another map
19 where you would show the movement of the column, a geographic map, or if
20 not, could you please just indicate on this map column of the BH Army so
21 that we know what these red arrows actually stand for.
22 A. Yes, I can write if you want, but the other map is this map,
23 Krivaja 1995 map. So where you have the blue arrows going down from
24 Srebrenica up to Baljkovica, so the other reference would be that map.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's 65 ter 907.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Could you please mark on this map these arrows that represent the
4 column. Can you write on the right-hand side the column, and then above
5 that where the red arrows are, just can you write "BH Army," or "ABiH."
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: The legend of the map says direction of Muslim
7 column with a red arrow. So I don't think that's necessary.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But, Mr. McCloskey, it was asked for an
9 indication of the movement of the BiH army. That might be a different
10 wording, but why shouldn't the witness not mark it as requested by the
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can mark it, but it's Muslim column. It's
13 for both BH Army and the civilians, but I can do additional marking here
14 saying that's column. And what is -- something else was requested to be
15 put, let me check --
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Well, actually what I would like you to write is ABiH column, but
18 as you want to also add civilians, you can write the column ABiH, but I
19 don't know whether these were civilians or conscripts because all
20 conscripts, able-bodied men were called up to join that column and we've
21 heard witnesses testify about that. And this is really to assist future
22 witnesses because they can't really read maps very well. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This witness can only mark according to his
24 evidence. Mr. Janc, do you mean by column also the BiH army?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed both. BiH army and these civilians, so
1 that refers to both of them.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And then we have it on the record, and I think
3 that is sufficient. Do you tender this map with the marking column?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, yes, Mr. President.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, it will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D24, Your Honours.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused kindly lean back. He is
9 creating a feedback because he is too close to the microphone.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm having feedback whenever I turn
11 the mike on. Somebody has their microphone on?
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There was some confusion about the number, but
14 Mr. Tolimir, when you speak, please not too near to the microphone.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, it seems to be fine now.
16 Somebody's microphone was on. By your leave, I have two more questions
17 of the witness.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Were you in the area of Zepa, Witness?
20 A. Yes, indeed, several times.
21 Q. Did you travel from the area of Zepa towards Srebrenica?
22 A. Yes, but only, I took one direction through Rogatica.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you indicate that distance where you indicated
24 the others?
25 A. No, that distance is not indicated here in our -- in our chart,
1 but I measured that distance, and I think it's -- if you go over
2 Rogatica, I can tell you it's around 160 kilometres, something like that.
3 If you go different route up to the north towards Han Pijesak, not around
4 Rogatica, it's closer, around 130 kilometres.
5 Q. Thank you. Can the shorter route of 130 kilometres be used?
6 A. Yes, it can be used for sure. I was travelling down from --
7 Q. Is it a forest-path or a regular road that can be used for
9 A. It's an asphalt road now through forest and you can travel
10 easily. I was doing it even in winter conditions, so it's quite a decent
11 road now.
12 Q. Was there any asphalt there during the war?
13 A. That I don't know, but I assume not because now the road is -- it
14 looks very, very, fresh, it looks a new one, so it might be a renovated
15 one, or, you know, the asphalt might be just new. I cannot -- I don't
16 know what was there during the war. I don't have this information.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, since I've exhausted the
18 time allocated to me, I'd like to thank the witness for the production of
19 these maps and the assistance he provided and will be providing during
20 the proceedings. I would also like to thank the Chamber for their
21 understanding and patience. This closes my cross-examination. I would
22 also like to thank all those who assisted me in doing so.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
24 Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just very, very, briefly.
1 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
2 Q. Witness, have you heard of the Serbian phrase "Samo Sloga Srbina
4 A. Yes, I have.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And perhaps translations can help me and just
6 translate this "Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava"?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Only concord saves the Serb.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. What does that term mean to you in English? Just the meaning.
10 I'm not trying to get into the history or anything deeper, just what the
11 words translates to in English?
12 A. I know it refers to that symbol we have been talking about, so I
13 know that everybody refers to it as a phrase for the symbol; so, no, I
14 cannot explain the meaning of it.
15 Q. Have you heard "only unity can save the Serbs"?
16 A. Yes, that's also sometimes referred as for this symbol.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc, thank you very much. This concludes
20 your examination. The Chamber thanks you for your attendance two times
21 to the court and you are free now to return to your normal work with the
22 OTP. Thank you very much again.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, I think it's ten minutes before
1 7.00, only ten minutes left.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, we had a 15 minute video so
3 we don't have enough time, it's a 20 minute video, so we would suggest
4 that we be done.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, we have to adjourn for today and
6 resume on Monday at 9.00. We have no hearing tomorrow. We explained
7 that earlier. Thank you very much. We adjourn.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.53 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of April,
10 2010, at 9.00 a.m.