1 Friday, 14 May 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning.
6 Could the witness be brought in, please.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC [Resumed]
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, Mr. Janc.
10 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I remind you again that the affirmation you
12 made at the beginning of your evidence still applies.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye has some more questions for you.
15 Mr. Vanderpuye.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you,
17 Your Honours. Good morning, everyone. Good morning, Mr. Janc.
18 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could have, please, in e-court 6268 --
20 65 ter 6268. And this should not be broadcast.
21 All right, I think we left off on the second page of this
22 document yesterday. If we could please go to the second page.
23 Okay. And just blow it up a little bit more, please. Yes.
24 Mr. President, could we go into private session for a moment,
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
2 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in public session, Your Honour.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think the full English translation of this
15 document is not available. However, the specific page that I'm looking
16 for is page 11 in the B/C/S. Okay, thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Janc, do you recognise the individual's name associated with
18 "Bisina 01SEK038B" listed as item number 3 in this document?
19 A. Yes, indeed. This is the individuals we have been talking about
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. If I could just go to page 41.
22 Q. Now, how did you connect Mr. Mujic in the intercept to the
23 Mr. Mujic that's referred to as body -- that we have been referring to?
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, was there a reason not to mention
25 this name?
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, it's not the name; it's the document that
2 I'm trying to avoid mentioning.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay, carry on.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed, there was a significant information
5 inside the intercept, itself. What it says, that this individual is
6 wounded in his leg. And, of course, upon reviewing all the documents we
7 received from the BiH authorities on the exhumation, I, indeed, noted for
8 individual under number 38, that around his leg there was a bandage. So
9 we can see this. It's not in English translation here, but in B/C/S we
10 can see "BIS
11 the right lower leg.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: And if we could just go to page 39 so we can
13 just identify the document for the Trial Chamber.
14 Maybe I've overshot -- no, I haven't overshot. Actually this is
15 the document.
16 Q. And could you read the title of the document, as indicated right
17 there in the middle of your screen? Does it refer to a record of
19 A. Yes. This is case file -- the Cantonal Court in Tuzla
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
21 Mr. President, I would like to tender this document, 65 ter 5749,
22 and --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it that there is no English translation of
24 the whole document.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: There is a partial --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Only the pages that we've seen?
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct. The pages we've seen, that's
3 right. There is a partial translation. There is, I think, a completed
4 English translation; it's just not in e-court for some reason. So I can
5 make that available -- I will make that available to the Trial Chamber.
6 We can mark it for identification, if need be.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This document will be marked, pending translation
8 or uploading the translation in e-court.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment, please.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P163, marked for identification.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: We can go into open session, Mr. President,
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are in open session.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. There are other documents I would like to
16 tender in respect of Mr. Janc's evidence concerning the Bisina
17 investigation. I don't -- there are quite a number of them. I don't
18 know if you'd prefer for me to go through each one of them and show him
19 each one of them, or to identify them for purposes of tendering now or
20 upon completion of his testimony. I do have them indicated, so I can
21 sort of run through them as we go, but it would be rather time-consuming,
22 I think, to present each one of them to ascertain whether Mr. Janc has
23 reviewed them, since he's essentially said that with respect to his
24 report already.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please describe the content or the
1 substance and the format of these documents.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. Shall I do that for each one that I've
3 tendered -- that I tender now, or --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First, in principle, give us the overview.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. In principle, these relate to the
6 Bisina-related exhumation documents that are received from the BiH
7 authorities, that are confirmed by NGOs, such as the ICMP, and also name
8 the individuals that were recovered during the course of the exhumation
9 and relate to their autopsies and things of that nature. And these are
10 all documents that the witness has already testified that he's considered
11 in relation to preparation of his report and in terms of counting the
12 victims of the Srebrenica and Zepa-related events.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It would be helpful if you could indicate, in
14 your Prosecution's exhibit list for this witness, so which 65 ter numbers
15 you are referring.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I can.
17 I'm referring to 65 ter number -- well, the one I've just
18 tendered, 5749 -- I'm not sure -- do you have a copy of the Prosecution's
19 list for tender? Okay. So it's 5749 that refers to Tuzla Cantonal Court
20 file relating to the Bisina-Sekovici exhumations. I would like to tender
21 5747, which is an autopsy report relating to Bisina-Sekovici body
22 number 038. 5790, which relates to a CD which concerns all of the
23 exhumations, and it's for Bisina and Sekovici. And then 5791, which is
24 also a CD of documents concerning the forensic reports, identification
25 reports, also related to that same exhumation.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it we received one, and now you are
2 tendering three additional documents.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received as three separate
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 05747 will be Exhibit P164. 65 ter 05790
8 will be Exhibit P165. 65 ter 05791 will be Exhibit P166.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could -- may I proceed, Mr. President?
10 If we could go back to 65 ter 6268 and have that on the screen
11 for the witness, please.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is it possible to broadcast that or --
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: This one shouldn't be broadcasted, it should not
14 be broadcast.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. If we could go to the next page, and you
17 can continue explaining your methodology, Mr. Janc. That would be
18 helpful. We were on page 2. I think we can go to page 3.
19 THE WITNESS: Shall I?
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, please.
21 Q. Mr. Janc, could you explain, first of all, what this document
23 And if we could make it a little bit smaller, because we need to
24 see the far right column, that would be helpful. Okay.
25 A. Yes. This is an extract of the ICMP data which relates to a
1 particular grave-site. So this is what I was talking about yesterday,
2 the actual spreadsheet which I was then referring to when counting the
3 actual number of identified individuals for a particular site. So this
4 one relates to Bisina site, and I took it as an example because this is
5 the mass grave which first appear, if you order it in alphabetical order,
6 by case ID. So that's why I have taken this example. And this is not
7 the final product yet in order to get the total number, because if you
8 can see from the last column, where it says "Type of Report," we have
9 main cases and reassociations included here. In order to get what I also
10 emphasised yesterday, the final number of the identified individual from
11 the particular grave-site, we have to make another step, which is filter
12 this "Type of Report" column by main case, and that's what we'll see if
13 you go to one page after this one.
14 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page, please.
15 A. So this is it. When I fill that the type of report by main case,
16 only main case is left there, and so this is now the final -- the final
17 table, spreadsheet, which shows how many individuals have been found in
18 this particular grave. They're not all included here, because in order
19 to make it an example, it was the best to fit 30 of them on one page, so
20 that's why not all of them are listed here, because, you know, for Bisina
21 site we have 39 individuals identified from that site.
22 Q. And is this information, as it's filtered, as you've shown us how
23 you've done that, is this represented somewhere in your report?
24 A. Yes, indeed. It is part of the confidential annex D. You will
25 find this spreadsheet in that -- inside that annex. And I have omitted
1 the last four columns of that spreadsheet in order to make it bigger, and
2 last four columns are not that important. It is an important type of the
3 report column, but there are main cases in confidential annex D, so you
4 don't need that column. And also the three before that, they are also
5 not that important for our -- my analysis. So the first seven, eight
6 columns are listed in confidential annex D.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, for the record, confidential
8 annex D is marked as 65 ter 5755A, which I would like to tender as well.
9 I don't know if you'd like me to show it to the witness, but it's
10 indicated, and that is part of his report.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For a better understanding of this evidence, it
12 would be helpful to see that on the record.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Thank you very much.
14 If we could show, then, briefly 65 ter 5755A in e-court. This
15 document also should not be broadcast. The reasons is, Your Honour, it
16 contains the names of certain individuals who may not have been -- whose
17 family members may not have been notified concerning their identification
18 as having been confirmed. So if we could just --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Registry took the necessary steps for that.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 If we could go to the next page, and you can describe what we
22 see. My mistake. The following page.
23 THE WITNESS: I think we have to go into another page.
24 So this is just the section -- the page where it says that now
25 it's coming -- the Cerska portion of the identified individuals.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay, that's it.
2 Q. If you could just describe that for the Trial Chamber, please.
3 A. Yes, that's exactly what I have been talking about just a few
4 minutes ago. So this is actual spreadsheet which was prepared in the way
5 I've testified about, so it's an actual copy of the ICMP spreadsheet.
6 What I have omitted, I already explained. The last -- I see three
7 columns, not four. Sorry for that. And I inserted the first column with
8 the significant numbers. And if you go a few more pages after that, you
9 will see the last number for this Cerska site will be 149, and this is --
10 these are the 149 [realtime transcript read in error "49"] individuals
11 which were identified so far from this particular site and which are part
12 of my report. This number we have seen yesterday at the beginning of my
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thanks. I believe it's page 11 in the e-court.
15 Q. Let me just ask, before that comes up: Did you indicate the
16 total numbers for each of the grave-sites, mass graves, primary graves,
17 secondary graves, and so on in this index?
18 A. Yes. So we see the last --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, we see 149 and not 49, as it is
20 recorded in line 8 of page 10. 149.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed, it is 149 individuals, and here we
22 have the last few columns. It says unique DNA profiles, which we will be
23 discussing, I think, soon, and I'll explain what those refers to.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. Janc.
25 Mr. President, I would like to tender this document at this time.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is this an annex to the whole report we saw
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Annex to the report, yes, that's right.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you going to tender that, the whole report?
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I am going to tender -- I can tender the
6 annex first, and then I'll tender the report once I'm through going --
7 once I'm through it.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps we can have it as one exhibit, or do you
9 want to have this annex as a separate exhibit?
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I believe we should have them separately,
11 Mr. President, because the other annexes and the other information are
12 not confidential. This one is, and we would like for it to be tendered
13 under seal.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 THE REGISTRAR: 5755A will be Exhibit P167, under seal.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If we could just return to 65 ter
18 6268 again, and we will need to go to page 5 of that document.
19 I just want to confirm that this isn't being broadcast as well.
21 Q. Mr. Janc, can you tell us what we have on the screen before us?
22 A. Yes. And before I explain in detail what this is, I would like
23 to -- just to clarify something from yesterday, when we have been talking
24 about the positive identification, when I said that positive
25 identification, it means that when the DNA profile is matched to a donor,
1 I actually meant when it is matched to a missing person through a donor.
2 So in order to identify someone who is on a missing person, you would
3 need blood sample of his relatives, and if this is matched, then it means
4 that the missing person is identified.
5 And what we have here in front of us are the cases where the DNA
6 profile -- the unique DNA
7 been matched to any of the donors, so the ICMP does not have any blood
8 samples of any relatives for these particular cases. So -- and every
9 time when we receive the ICMP update, we also ask them if the unique DNA
10 profiles which already have been established for the particular graves --
11 secondary and primary graves which are related to Srebrenica, if they can
12 provide us with those unique cases, and this is exactly what we have in
13 front of us. They have provided this information, and this is again only
14 a sample of one section of this table. It's not the complete one.
15 And we have the first column, where it says "Source Case Number,"
16 those in blue, and we can see from here certain site -- certain numbers
17 and letters, and they refer to case ID. So -- and all on the left-hand
18 side under "Source Case Number," these are main cases. It means these
19 are the unique main cases.
20 And then we have the second column next to it in red. This is
21 "Target Case Number," which are reassociations to the main cases on the
22 left. So if you go to the first one, where it says "Glogova 05," I don't
23 see the number. It's "059B," there was one body part which was
24 reassociated to that, so to that one, which is "Glogova 05059MXD1," which
25 we can see in red, so it means these two body parts are part of one
2 And for my analysis, I also used these individuals which we
3 say -- the unique ones which are not matched to a missing person, so
4 because simply they are coming from the mass graves for -- which most of
5 the individuals have been already identified as being Srebrenica victims.
6 And that's why, and we have 292 of them in total, I included into the
7 total number 5.777 also these unique individuals. Yeah, that's it.
8 So the last two columns are, I think, the probability of -- yeah,
9 I see probability of these match to be -- to be correct. It's a
10 statistical presentation from the ICMP.
11 Q. And the statistical presentation represents the degree of
12 certainty with respect to the match that's declared between the profile
13 that is recovered?
14 A. Yes, indeed, that is degree of certainty. So we see "DM Bosnia,"
15 so I think the degree of certainty against the Bosnian population. And
16 then we have the last column, degree of certainty against the
17 7.000 people.
18 Q. Okay. And do these relate to the sample and re-associations?
19 A. Yes, indeed, those relate to those.
20 Q. And do you have any explanation why, in this particular chart, we
21 have a source case number rather than a main -- rather than a main case
22 number, and we have a target case number rather than a re-association?
23 Can you explain why that designation is so?
24 A. No, I cannot say why is that so, but I think we would have to
25 consult the ICMP, why they have referred them as different markings.
1 But, you know, for me, for my purposes, they represent the case ID -- the
2 case IDs, and the ones on the left-hand side, they are the main cases.
3 Q. And if we go to the bottom of the screen, we see source case
4 numbers without any target case numbers listed in sequence. Can you
5 explain that for the Trial Chamber.
6 A. Yes. That basically means that only the main cases -- only one
7 part of the body, of the individual, have been found. There is no
8 re-association to that body, so the body was most probably complete.
9 Q. All right. And if we could go to the next page, please.
10 Does this represent essentially the same information?
11 A. Yes, this is essentially the same information. It is actually
12 the same table as the one before, but here I have made two entries in
13 black, as you can see, the second entry and down there. I wanted to
14 present, for the purposes of this testimony, how I counted and included
15 also these unique profiles into my DNA
16 left-hand side, the second entry for "Lazete 02C890B," I think, you can
17 see that the site code on the right-hand side is "Snagovo 03,"
18 "Zvornik 152D," and I can see from this data, based on this case ID, that
19 these are two different graves. The one on the left-hand side is primary
20 grave. And the one on right-hand side is secondary grave. I'll just
21 consult my -- secondary grave on Hodzici Road, and this is Hodzici Road
22 2. So it means that this particular individual was found in two
23 different graves. And the same case for the other one in black down
24 there, for Cancari 03 and Kozluk 03. So we have one DNA connection
25 between those two sites. So that's just in order to present you how I
1 made an analysis regarding the DNA
2 Q. And is this information also derived from the ICMP?
3 A. Yes, indeed.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask an additional question.
5 You told us that this body was found in two different graves.
6 Does it mean different parts of the body? Could you explain that.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, indeed, different parts of the
8 body were found in two different graves, so one individual found in two
9 different graves, because these are primary and the second one is
10 secondary grave to this primary one. So it's just another confirmation,
11 support, that, indeed, Hodzici Road graves are, indeed, related to
12 Lazete-Orahovac primary grave, and the same for Kozluk and Cancari
13 Road 3. And if we can go to another page, we'll see the same issue, the
14 same exercise I have been doing with the ICMP data, not with the unique
15 ones. I will present you how I have made the conclusions regarding these
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we move to the next page, Judge Nyambe has
18 a question.
19 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
20 JUDGE NYAMBE: Do I understand your explanation to
21 Judge Fluegge's question to mean that the body of one person was found in
22 a primary grave and a secondary grave?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's totally correct. That's exactly what I
24 meant, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE NYAMBE: How, then, were secondary graves created? My
1 understanding was that people were dug out from the primary grave and
2 reburied in a secondary grave. So in this case, you're implying that the
3 excavation of a primary grave was not complete?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, indeed. The excavation of the
5 primary graves, not a single one of these primary graves was a complete
6 one. There were a lot of bodies left there, and a lot of bodies were
7 only -- a lot of bodies were taken apart, so a lot of body parts were
8 found in these primary graves and also in the secondary graves. So
9 that's how it was done. None of these primary graves was exhumed --
10 re-exhumed in its entirety.
11 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you very much.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: With respect -- I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes.
15 Q. I was -- with respect to the primary -- the relationship of a
16 primary grave to a secondary grave, Mr. Janc, as is represented in the
18 profiles that are samples that are coming from these graves, or are we
19 talking about body parts, in terms of DNA analysis for the ICMP?
20 A. Here, we are talking about the DNA samples, but those refer to
21 particular body part which is found in this grave.
22 Q. And is it the body part that is the subject of the exhumation
23 data, or is it the body part that is the subject of the DNA examination
24 versus a sample?
25 A. It's a body part which is a subject of the DNA -- of the
1 exhumation record, body part, and then we have DNA sample, which is part
2 of this -- DNA
3 in this spreadsheet.
4 Q. With respect to the unique data -- the unique DNA data unmatched
5 profiles that is represented in what we have before us now in e-court, is
6 that derived from ICMP data concerning those unique, unmatched DNA
8 A. Yes, it is, it is derived from the ICMP data.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the record, Mr. President, the ICMP records
10 concerning unmatched unique DNA
11 would also like to tender that through Mr. Janc. I don't know if you
12 would like me to show it to him. I can, if need be, but I think he's
13 probably identified it sufficiently for the record.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It would be helpful just as an example.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.
16 If we could have in e-court, please, 65 ter 6270.
17 All right. I think we have it in e-court now.
18 Q. Do you recognise what this depicts, Mr. Janc, what this shows?
19 A. Yes, this is what we have been discussing. These are the unique
21 Q. Okay. And is this what you based your analysis on, in terms of
22 evaluating these unique unmatched DNA profiles?
23 A. Yes, indeed.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document
25 at this time, if I may.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is an annex to the overall report 65 ter
2 6268, isn't it?
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: It should be 65 ter 6270, which is actually the
4 ICMP data. It's not an annex to the report. It's the underlying basis
5 for the report.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That clarifies the situation.
7 This document will be received.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P168, Your Honour.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd also like to tender the
11 sample pages to which Mr. Janc has been referring to all of this time;
12 that is, 65 ter 6268, and that should also be tendered under seal for the
13 reasons that I gave before concerning relatives of certain individuals
14 that may not have been notified concerning confirmed deaths.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These pages will be received as well.
16 THE WITNESS: But can we go to the last page of these sample
17 pages, because I would like to explain a few things there.
18 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 6268 will be Exhibit P169, under seal.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we can go to the last page. Mr. Janc, the
20 last page of which document?
21 THE WITNESS: Sorry, yes, for that which was just received under
22 seal, these sample pages.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: 6268, he's referring to.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: As this is received under seal, it shouldn't be
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. Here we can see the actual -- again, the same
3 ICMP spreadsheet we have been discussing all the time. And in order to
4 present you how I have been doing the DNA connections between -- now we
5 have the identified individuals, I have taken one and prepared one sample
6 also for this purpose. And in order to find the connections between
7 these -- to find any connections between the different graves, primary
8 and secondary, I have first sorted this spreadsheet -- the ICMP
9 spreadsheet by protocol ID, and this is the third column on here. And
10 you can see the numbers are in sequence order.
11 And just to highlight, I think, three or four here -- at least
12 three individuals which were found in two different graves, the first one
13 is in the red at the top. So we have four entries -- actually, five
14 entries for this particular individual, and under "Case ID" you can see
15 that one body -- actually, two body parts of this particular individual
16 were found in Budak 1 grave, and the second -- the additional three body
17 parts were found in Zeleni Jadar. Here it says "08," but this is
18 Zeleni Jadar number 4 grave. So in this case, we have established a DNA
19 connection between these two secondary graves. These are both secondary
20 graves. And it means that body parts from -- of these particular
21 individuals were taken from primary grave and buried -- a few pieces of
22 this individual in one secondary grave and the additional three pieces in
23 another secondary grave. So -- and I counted in this case one DNA
24 connection for this particular individual between these two secondary
1 And below there, there you have the individual in green. There
2 is a connection between Bljeceva 1 and Bljeceva 2. And also the last
3 three entries here, we see the individual and the DNA connections between
4 Cancari Road
5 MR. VANDERPUYE:
6 Q. Does your report encompass any other evidence associating graves,
7 either mass -- either primary or secondary, or between secondary graves,
8 other than DNA
9 A. Actually, I present this DNA
10 connections in my charts, which we will be discussing soon, but -- and I
11 also presented, in my report, the new links -- connections which were
12 established recently, which are not related to DNA but other forensic
13 evidence. For example, I found the connections between Pilica execution
14 site and Cancari Road 4 secondary grave. There was ID found during the
15 crime scene investigation in 1996, and now the individual -- this
16 individual from this identification document was found in Cancari Road 4
17 grave, secondary grave. And the same it was for two identification
18 documents found in front of Kravica warehouse. The individuals for --
19 from these two identification documents were found in Ravnice grave-site.
20 So, yes, I have also used -- in order to present you how these primary
21 and secondary graves are related, I've used all the evidence we have so
22 far on these issues.
23 Q. And do you know if any of this forensic non-DNA forensic evidence
24 is discussed in relation to the association amongst graves in
25 Dean Manning's report?
1 A. Yes. Most of those are discussed in his report.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I think we can leave this document
3 now, and it has already been received in evidence under seal.
4 And I'd like to -- before we move on, I'd like to also tender
5 Mr. Janc's report, the main report, which is 65 ter 5754A.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. The report will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P170, Your Honour.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. And if we could have annex A of that
9 report brought up in e-court. I believe it's on page 7 in the English.
10 And I believe it's on page 8 in the B/C/S.
11 Q. And we'll go to a couple of the substantive pages in a moment,
12 but could you just briefly tell us how this annex is organised?
13 A. Yes. First part of the annex A refers to the mass graves known
14 to the ICTY before. Then is a section where we have the mass graves and
15 other graves which were not known to the ICTY. And the last part of it
16 are other graves, and also we have a table presenting how many particular
17 individuals -- how many individuals so far have been identified per
18 single primary grave which was disturbed and we have related secondary
19 graves. So we'll see that table at the end.
20 Q. And when you say "disturbed," just let us know what that means so
21 we can understand when we get there.
22 A. Yes, "disturbed," it means, actually, that the bodies were
23 reburied to another location. So it means primary grave was disturbed,
24 bodies were taken out and reburied somewhere else into a secondary grave.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. If we could go to page 2 of your annex,
1 and I'll tell you the page in e-court. I believe it's page 8 in e-court,
2 in the English, and page 10 in the B/C/S, I think. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. All right. Can you just tell us what we see here?
4 A. Yes. This is the beginning of my annex A, and it represents how
5 my report regarding the particular grave-site, it looks. So I've listed
6 the site, site name, site code, when it was exhumed, and then we have --
7 for each particular site, we have a table down there, so it is again a
8 presentation how many particular individuals have been identified from
9 this site.
10 And as you can see for Cerska, example, we have in table two
11 different -- two different grave names, so one it's "Cerska ICMP," which
12 means that I found 143 individuals on the ICMP update, what we have been
13 discussing. But then we have also "Cerska PHR/ICRC." These are six
14 individuals which were identified before the ICMP commenced its work. So
15 this is actually the broken-down table of the total number,
16 149 individuals, which were so far identified from this grave.
17 And we have the same issue, then, for the Nova Kasaba 1996 grave.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the Nova Kasaba grave, if we could please go
19 to page 9 in the B/C/S, and we stay on page 8 in the English, so that --
20 I'm sorry, page 11 in the B/C/S, and then we'll stay on page 8 in the
21 English. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. So could you briefly describe the table that we see here
23 concerning the Nova Kasaba --
24 A. Yes. Actually, it's the same like for Cerska. So 32 individuals
25 identified by the ICMP and one individual already before by PHR or ICRC.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. And if we could go a page down in
2 the B/C/S, and to the next page in the English. Okay.
3 Q. Now, on this page, we have "Nova Kasaba 1999,"
4 "Orahovac-Lazete 1," and there's no reference here to the ICMP or to PHR
5 A. Yes, so it means that all of them have been identified by the
6 ICMP. We have no identifications by the other -- other institutions
7 before the ICMP. So it means, basically, 51 individuals for Nova Kasaba
8 1999 have been identified by the ICMP.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. And if we could go, please, to
10 page 13 in the English, and I think we're going to have to straddle
11 page 16 and 17 in the B/C/S.
12 Q. And what this area particularly concerns are the graves Ravnice 1
13 and 2. If you could explain that. I think we may be on the wrong page
14 in the B/C/S. Let me see. Is that page 16 in the B/C/S? All right.
15 A. Yeah, this page explains -- it is a summary, actually, of the
16 forensic findings during the exhumations of the Ravnice grave-site. On
17 this page, you can see a summary of what kind of connections have been
18 established between execution point Kravica and this particular
19 grave-site which is linked to Kravica. So -- and as I was already
20 testifying about before, we have the third paragraph down there where it
21 says what kind of documents have been found in front of Kravica
22 warehouse, and that now those two individuals are found in the Ravnice 2
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: We'll need to go to the next page in the B/C/S
25 and stay on this page in English.
1 Q. You referred to the third paragraph down. Just tell us what
2 documents you found specifically in relation to this association between
3 Ravnice and Kravica.
4 A. These were identification documents, two identification documents
5 found in front of Kravica warehouse.
6 Q. Okay. And that's indicated in a separate report?
7 A. No, this is not indicated in a separate report. This is for it's
8 first time indicated in my report.
9 Q. Okay. And, by the way, is this -- is this connection discussed
10 in your previous report, or is this a new finding altogether?
11 A. This is a completely new finding right now, and those two
12 identification documents were collected by Investigator Jean-Rene Ruez on
13 12th of April, 1996.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Now, if we could go to page 16 in the
15 English, and we may have to straddle, again, page 22 and 23 in the B/C/S.
16 Q. And I want to refer you specifically, if I may, to Cancari
17 Road 4. All right. And, in particular, let me direct you to the last
18 paragraph in the English on that page. Can you explain to the
19 Trial Chamber a little bit about that.
20 A. Yes. It is --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you comment on that, if you're referring
22 to the last paragraph, it should be scrolled down, and we need the
23 corresponding B/C/S.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Then it's page 23 in the B/C/S.
25 Thank you, Mr. President.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's the same issue as before. The
2 identification documents were found by Jean-Rene Ruez on 23rd of August,
3 1996, in front of Pilica Dom, and the individual from these documents was
4 found in Cancari Road 4 grave.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE:
6 Q. And how was this individual found in Cancari Road grave; by DNA
7 or by some other means?
8 A. Yes, he was originally identified through DNA by the ICMP.
9 Q. Okay. And now with respect to the Cancari Road graves, is there
10 any new information in your report as concerns these graves, versus your
11 old report, or your more recent report, I should say?
12 A. Yes, indeed, there was a -- there was a change in relation to
13 which of the Cancari secondary graves are related to the primary graves
14 Kozluk and Branjevo. So from our previous investigations, we know that
15 bodies from primary graves Kozluk and Branjevo were reburied to along the
16 Cancari Road graves. These secondary graves were found by the ICTY, 12
17 of them, and additional one, the 13 one, by the BiH authorities. So we
18 have in total 13 secondary graves along this road. And in my previous
19 report, I linked Cancari Road 5 and 4, as well as 6. But at that time we
20 didn't have any identifications yet from this Cancari Road 6 secondary
21 grave. I linked these sites to Kozluk, and that was based on the green
22 glass which was found -- which was found inside these graves.
23 Previously, we referred as being green glass linked to Kozluk
24 grave, where a lot of green glass was found inside this primary grave,
25 and also in related Cancari Road 3 grave which was exhumed by the ICTY,
1 it was confirmed, but through forensic evidence, that this secondary
2 grave is related to Kozluk. So based on the green glass which was found
3 in the site Cancari Road 4, 5, and 6, we have linked -- I have linked
4 these secondary graves to Kozluk primary site.
5 But when we received the update of the ICMP data in February of
6 2010, there we have already new identifications -- or first
7 identifications and additional identifications from Cancari Road 4 and 6.
8 And based on the DNA
9 connected to Branjevo, but to -- are not connected to Kozluk primary
10 grave, but rather to Branjevo grave-site. So we'll see, when we will go
11 over the DNA
12 connections have been established between these graves, and you will see
13 on the charts why I considered these graves -- these secondary graves
14 being related to Branjevo grave and not to Kozluk.
15 Q. Let me just ask you a few questions about this.
16 You say that the attribution of these graves or the association
17 of these graves with Kozluk was based upon the finding of green glass?
18 A. Yes, indeed.
19 Q. And did you have any indication as to how much green glass was
20 found in these associated graves?
21 A. Yes. For Cancari Road 4 and 6, there are ICMP summary report
22 where it says a small amount of this green glass, and that's the only
23 information we have. For Cancari Road 5, we have just exhumation report
24 talking about the green glass, but it doesn't say how much of this green
25 glass was found there.
1 Q. And in relation to the other Cancari graves where green glass was
2 found, was there an indication as to how much green glass was found?
3 A. Yes. We have an example for Cancari Road 1, which was exhumed
4 last year, and I also attend this site for two days, and you can find in
5 the ICMP report that it -- a lot of green glass have been found, a huge
6 amount over all the deposits inside the grave. So they have made this
7 distinction between small amount and huge amount of green glass.
8 Q. And is there any indication in the ICMP summary reports that you
9 reviewed in relation to Cancari Road 4 and 6, whether that's the same
10 green glass that was found in the other Cancari graves, same type of
11 green glass?
12 A. No, there is no indication on that, if that is -- if that is the
13 same type, or any other evidence on it, nor we have any scientific report
14 about this types of the glass. It's just the matter that there is a
15 green glass. And besides that, it's not only green glass inside these
16 Cancari 4 and 6; it's also another type of -- types of glass have been
18 Q. How does this impact your prior and this new report concerning
19 the number of Kozluk-related graves -- or individuals, I should say, and
20 the Branjevo-related individuals?
21 A. Yes, indeed, it impacts on the total number of the individuals
22 found in -- or individuals which can be attributed to the particular
23 primary grave and subsequently to execution point. So the number for
24 Kozluk -- the total number for Kozluk-related victims is now
25 significantly lower; for, I think, more than 200 individuals. And for
1 Branjevo-related individuals, it's higher.
2 Q. Okay. And is it substantially higher or slightly higher? Do you
3 know? Can you recall?
4 A. It's the same -- the same number of individuals, which are less
5 for Kozluk site, are now added to Branjevo site --
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay, now we can move on.
7 Mr. President, there are some exhibits I would like to tender in
8 relation to this aspect of the testimony. These relate to the
9 exhumations that were carried out with concerning to Cancari Road
10 graves 4, 6, 8 and 9, and I can describe them more particularly with
11 respect to each.
12 The first is 65 ter 5757. That's the exhumation record for
13 Cancari Road
14 Cancari Road
15 relating to the exhumations for Kamenica 6, which is also Cancari 6.
16 5759, which is the exhumation record for Cancari Road 8. 5760, which is
17 the exhumation record for Cancari Road 9. 5779, which is the Tuzla
19 exhumations for Cancari Road 9. And then 5789, which is a CD which
20 contains the exhumation records concerning the Cancari graves.
21 Let me make sure I have it right. Yes, that's right.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These seven documents will be received.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 5757 will be Exhibit P171. 5758 will be
25 Exhibit P172. 5778 will be Exhibit P173. 5759 will be Exhibit P174.
1 5760 will be Exhibit P175. 5779 will be Exhibit P176. 5789 will be
2 Exhibit P177.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE:
4 Q. I would like to refer you to the Bljeceva and Budak mass graves
5 which are discussed in your report. That's page 28 of the English, and I
6 believe it's page 42 of the B/C/S.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the correct number.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I believe it is -- sorry. 28 of the English
9 and -- yes, I'm sorry. Do you need the exhibit number? Yeah, it's
10 5754A. I'm sorry, I didn't realise it wasn't on e-court.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think I may be a page off in the English, so
13 we'll go one page forward to ERN ending 6000. Okay.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Janc, what can you tell us about this Bljeceva 1 grave?
15 A. Bljeceva 1 grave is a significant one because it is a mixed
16 grave, and this is the only mixed grave related to the secondary and
17 primary graves which are discussed in my report. When I say "mixed
18 grave," I mean that inside this grave are the individuals which are
19 related to the Srebrenica events and also on the individuals which are
20 related to some other events; in particular, events in Bratunac in May of
21 1992. So inside this grave, there were individuals disposed from two
22 different events, and most of the individuals inside this grave is not
23 related to Srebrenica events. So far, we have 49 identifications related
24 to Srebrenica, and I think a little bit more than 90 individuals have
25 been identified in relation to other event.
1 Q. And in relation to the Bljeceva 1 grave, how did you count the
2 number of individuals, in terms of your report? Did you count all of the
3 individuals in the grave, or did you only count some of them?
4 A. I just counted the one which are -- which are related to
5 Srebrenica, which are victims of the Srebrenica -- on the missing list --
6 on the Srebrenica missing list. I just counted those individuals.
7 Q. How did you make the association between the people that were --
8 well, how did you make the connection between the people that were found
9 there that were associated with Srebrenica, versus the people that were
10 found there that were not associated with Srebrenica? How was that
12 A. The people who are related to Srebrenica, their names appear on
13 the ICMP missing list and also on the -- actually, not on the ICMP, but
14 the ICRC missing list. So they went missing after the fall of
16 Q. And how were you able to determine the individuals that weren't
17 from Srebrenica, what event, if any, they were related to?
18 A. We also received the ICMP data on the identified individuals
19 which are related to other events, and in the relation to that I
20 consulted our Demographic Unit, who prepared a list of the individuals
21 which are from the other events and found inside these graves.
22 Q. So for the people that are non-Srebrenica-related, was that
23 determined on the basis of their identity as is found in other records?
24 A. Yes, correct.
25 Q. And was that determined on the basis of DNA identification or
2 A. Yes, again correct.
3 Q. And does this mixing of individuals from separate events occur
4 with respect to the Bljeceva 2 grave?
5 A. No, it is only in respect to Bljeceva 1 grave.
6 Q. And in respect of your review of the individuals found in these
7 graves, did you review ICMP summary reports concerning them?
8 A. Yes, indeed, and the fact that they -- they found -- the
9 individuals from two different events was spotted during the exhumation
10 by them.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could -- I have a document that I'd like to
12 tender in relation to that. That is the ICMP summary report. If you'd
13 like me to show it to the witness, I could. All right. It's
14 65 ter 06266.
15 Q. Yes, Mr. Janc. I just want to show you this document for
16 identification purposes. Do you recognise it?
17 A. Yes. This is a summary report for Bljeceva 1 from -- ICMP
18 summary report which I have been referring to.
19 Q. Okay. And did you review it in connection with the preparation
20 of your report?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Mr. President, I'd like to tender this
23 one into evidence. I have another one I would like to show the witness
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P178.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. If I could have in e-court, please,
3 65 ter 6267.
4 Q. Mr. Janc, do you recognise what's on the screen now in e-court?
5 A. Yes. This is summary report for Bljeceva 2.
6 Q. And did you have an opportunity to review this document in
7 relation to the preparation of your report?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would offer this document as
10 well into evidence.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P179.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE:
14 Q. Now, Mr. Janc, can you -- first of all, do you know whether or
15 not there are any other graves that concern your analysis that are mixed,
16 besides the Bljeceva 1 grave?
17 A. No, there are no -- there is no such graves.
18 Q. And how can you rule out that possibility?
19 A. This is based on the findings during the exhumations, and
20 especially I reviewed all the summary reports for all the graves from the
21 ICMP, and they haven't spotted any such -- such instances with the other
22 graves. There was, I can mention, for example, for Zeleni Jadar 2, when
23 they exhumed that grave, it was already established before by the ICTY --
24 Professor Richard Wright was there, and he established that this
25 secondary grave was robbed. So some bodies were taken out of secondary
1 grave and buried somewhere else. We still don't know where. We don't
2 have -- this location of this tertiary grave which is related to the
3 Zeleni Jadar 2 is not known to the ICTY yet. And also during that
4 exhumation, because that grave was exhumed by the BiH authorities in
5 2008, I think, or 2007, they have spotted the same issue, the same fact,
6 that this grave was robbed. So -- and that's why I'm saying that the
7 ICMP archaeologists are very precise in their determination, if these
8 graves are mixed, robbed, and what was going on with the graves. And
9 when I -- when I don't see any indication in their reports that the
10 graves might be mixed, or any other indications, I can exclude the
11 possibility that these are mixed -- the other graves are also mixed
13 Q. With respect to the determination of the fact that the Bljeceva 1
14 grave is mixed, is that new to your report, or new in your report, I
15 should say?
16 A. No, it is not new. This fact was already known to the ICTY
17 before, and it was already in Dean Manning's report and also in my last
19 Q. And you're referring to Dean Manning's report in 2007?
20 A. Yes, indeed, Dean Manning's report from 2007.
21 Q. Okay. And it was discussed in your previous report, you've said?
22 A. Yes, also it was discussed in my previous report.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. I'd like to go to -- back, I should say,
24 to 5754A, which is annex A. And within annex A, I would like to go to --
25 I'd like to go to page 20 in the English, page -- and we'll have to
1 straddle page 38 and 39 in the B/C/S, please. Did I say "page 20"? I
2 meant 25 in the English. I'm sorry.
3 If we can just go to the next page in the English, so ERN
4 ending 997. Yes.
5 Q. At the bottom of that page, you can see we begin the discussion
6 of the Zeleni Jadar 2 grave that you've been talking about.
7 A. Yes, indeed, on the last paragraph -- actually, the last sentence
8 on this page, is talking about -- and we should go on to another page.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we need the next page in B/C/S.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. I think the B/C/S page is correct for the
12 Q. Now, with respect to this grave, you'd indicated that it had been
13 robbed. Can you tell us what that means.
14 A. I think I already explained that the bodies were taken out from
15 this secondary grave and buried -- reburied again into so far unknown
16 tertiary grave.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. If I could just have in e-court, please,
18 65 ter 6265.
19 THE WITNESS: But still I have to add, regardless of this fact,
20 still some of the bodies were found inside these graves, so not all of
21 the bodies were reburied. So if you can see here, 19 individuals so far
22 is identified inside this grave.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE:
24 Q. Okay. And what's that based on?
25 A. It's based on -- again, on the DNA identifications by the ICMP.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Now, if we could go to 65 ter 6265, please.
2 Q. All right. Do you recognise this document?
3 A. Yes. This is the ICMP summary report for Zeleni Jadar 2 grave.
4 Q. And is this the document that you refer to -- that you
5 referenced, I should say, concerning the movement of bodies out of the
6 Zeleni Jadar 2 grave to a tertiary grave?
7 A. Yes, this is the one I was referring to.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. And if we could just go to -- it should
9 be page 9 in this document.
10 I understand that this document is in the process of translation
11 in B/C/S. So I'm referring specifically to paragraph 40. I'll read it
12 into the record so it can be translated. It reads -- first, the heading
13 is "Conclusion," and it reads:
14 "Observations made during recovery suggest that one deposit of
15 human remains was observed deposited. It is suspected that the grave had
16 been tampered with after its initial creation and bodies and related
17 evidence moved to an unknown tertiary location."
18 Q. Is this what you were referring to during the course of --
19 rather, in your report?
20 A. Yes, exactly, this is the paragraph I have been referring to.
21 And also on the second page of this same report, you will find a brief
22 summary, and there will be also indication about this fact.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could go to the second page, that would be
24 fine, and I'll read that into the record as well. Page 2, please.
25 Q. You're referring to what's indicated under -- well, what's
1 enumerated A?
2 A. Yes, indeed, the last entry for site name under A, you will see
3 it says:
4 "Secondary mass grave is likely to have been re-excavated,
5 'robbed,' and the remains placed into a tertiary mass grave."
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Mr. President, I would tender this
7 into evidence at this time.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked for identification, pending
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 THE REGISTRAR: 06265 will be Exhibit P171, marked for
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'm about to go into a section --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment. I think there was a mistake.
15 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, Your Honour. The correct number is
16 Exhibit P180.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'm about to go into a section
20 that will take a little while, and I see that it's just moments from the
21 break. I wonder if we might stop now, and then I'll pick up.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think this is a convenient time.
23 We must have our first break now, and we'll resume five minutes
24 before 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I think we received two ICMP
3 reports, both without an English translation. The second one we marked
4 for identification. The first one was received. I think that should be
5 marked for identification as well. That should be P179.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, I believe you're right.
7 Thank you for that. I believe both of those documents are in translation
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We change it to marked for identification.
10 Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 If we could have back in e-court annex A, which I think is 5754A,
13 and the page I'll give you in just a moment. 34 in the English, and I
14 believe it's 52 in the B/C/S. All right.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not sure if these pages correspond.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: They don't; you're right. We should go two
17 pages up in the English to ERN ending 6007. Okay, I think we have it
19 Q. In the section of your report, Mr. Janc, dealing with smaller
20 graves, we have this grave you've indicated here as the Vragolovi grave.
21 Can you tell us a bit about that? At the bottom, you've indicated here
22 that the remains of Avdo Palic, Amir Imamovic, and Mehmed Hajric were
23 recovered from this grave. Can you tell us a little bit about the basis
24 of that conclusion and about the grave itself?
25 A. The Vragolovi grave is the only grave in my report which is
1 related to do Zepa victims, and as you can see here, I presented when it
2 was exhumed, by whom, and how many individuals from this grave have been
3 identified so far. We see eight individuals.
4 We know, from the exhumation records and based on the interview
5 we have conducted with Dr. Eva Klonowski, who participated at the
6 exhumation, at the site, who was there, that -- in total nine bodies were
7 recovered from this grave. And among these individuals which were found
8 inside these graves are also three Bosnian Muslim leaders from Zepa;
9 Mehmed Hajric, Amir Imamovic and Avdo Palic. So those were identified by
11 year. The other two individuals were already identified before. And
12 this grave is actually located, I would say, around four kilometres away
13 from the Rogatica centre town.
14 Q. And based on your investigation and your involvement in this
15 matter, can you tell us a little bit about who each of these individuals
16 are? Let's start with Avdo Palic.
17 A. Yes, Avdo Palic was the commander of the Zepa Brigade in
18 July 1995, when the Zepa fall, and he was captured -- arrested by the
19 members of the VRS. And we have some information and witness statement
20 of his movement after his capture on twenty - I think - seven of July,
21 1995. Later on, he was taken to the Borika Hotel, from there to --
22 somewhere to Rogatica, where he was kept in an apartment and interrogated
23 by the members of the security branch of the VRS Main Staff. And after
24 that, he was taken to Bijeljina, to Vaniko [phoen] Prison, where he was
25 kept by the members of the IBK Corps.
1 Q. When you say "IBK Corps," could you explain that, please.
2 A. Yes, this is East Bosnian Corps of the VRS Army. Until the 5th
3 of September -- okay. On the night from 4th to 5th of September, he was
4 taken out of this prison by Dragomir Pecanac. He was the Main Staff,
5 I think, security officer at that time. And from that moment on, we
6 don't have any indication where he ended up. So there is information
7 that he was taken back towards Han Pijesak at the same night, but after
8 that there is no information about him. And the only information we have
9 now, that he was found in the same grave as the other two Muslim leaders,
10 Mehmed Hajric and Amir Imamovic, and those two were civilian
11 representatives in Zepa. One of them was hodja, I think. The other one,
12 I cannot remember. But both of them were also arrested after the fall of
13 Zepa by the members of the VRS, and those two individuals were then kept
14 and imprisoned in Rasadnik prison in Rogatica for several days or several
15 weeks. And then, according to information to the witnesses which we
16 interviewed, they were taken out of the prison and never seen again. So
17 that was around middle of August, end of August, somewhere at that time.
18 And also these two individuals are found, as we can see, together with
19 Avdo Palic, in the same grave.
20 Q. Thank you for that explanation. And did you review any
21 particular records, ICMP records, such as autopsy reports, in relation to
22 the identification of these individuals in the Vragolovi grave?
23 A. Yes, I have. I did review -- reviewed those reports, autopsy
24 reports, exhumation reports, and I reviewed the photographs of the -- of
25 the exhumation, and all these documents regarding these graves -- this
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. I'd like to have in e-court, please,
3 65 ter 2645. I think this should not be broadcast, also.
4 Q. Do you recognise this document, Mr. Janc?
5 A. Yes, I recognise it.
6 Q. Okay. And this is a document that indicates a match for
7 Amir Imamovic?
8 A. Yes, correct. This is the ICMP report regarding the DNA match to
9 Imamovic, Amir. And you can see also the -- who are the donors for these
10 particular individuals. So based on the donors, Imamovic, Amir, as a
11 missing person at that time, was identified.
12 Q. And you see the designation at the top of the page "Case
13 number VRG-5"; is that right?
14 A. Yes, that's correct. So he -- his remains were found and
15 designated during the exhumation as Vragolovi number 5, body number 5.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Could we have 65 ter -- well, I'd
17 like to tender this into evidence, please, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is there an English translation of this document?
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think it's actually in both -- yeah, the first
20 and second paragraph, I think, are translated, and also the bottom is --
21 well, the whole thing is translated? The whole thing is translated.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was told the same. It will be received.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to tender
24 that under seal, please.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P181, under seal.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could have 65 ter 5776, please, shown to
4 the witness in e-court.
5 Q. While that's being up-loaded, Mr. Janc, did you include these
6 three individuals as victims, for numerical purposes, in your report?
7 Did you count them as such?
8 A. Yes, indeed, I counted them all.
9 Q. All right. What I'm showing you now is an autopsy report
10 associated with Vragolovi body number 5.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What I want to do is I want to direct your attention to the
13 bottom of the screen. First of all, have you reviewed this report?
14 A. Yes, certainly, I reviewed all of these reports.
15 Q. Okay. And I'd like to direct your attention to the body -- the
16 bottom of this, under letter D, "Injuries." Did you have an opportunity
17 to review that?
18 A. Yes, indeed.
19 Q. Okay. And what did you determine as a result of reviewing this
20 document concerning the circumstances of the death of VRG-5?
21 A. I concluded, based on these documents, and also based on the
22 other autopsy reports for all the other bodies find -- found in this
23 grave, it is my conclusion, and it is also written on this report, as
24 will you see, that the death for all of them was violent, and it was
25 caused directly due to the gun-shot wound into the head. So my
1 conclusion for -- not only for this particular individual, but for all of
2 them, for all nine, that they were -- they were executed.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If we could just go to the next
4 page, I think, in both documents.
5 Q. And this is the conclusion that you're referring to, that the
6 death was violent? This is written in this document?
7 A. Yes, that's it, what I was referring to, that the death was
8 violent, and, as it was written there, that it was caused directly due to
9 the head injury. And then below there is a description, what kind of
10 fractures have been identified during the autopsy.
11 Q. Okay. And in the case of Amir Imamovic, body number 5, it speaks
12 about multiple fractures of the occipital bone to the left side of the
13 head, parietal bone?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And fractures to the skull or the maxilla or the jaw?
16 A. Yes, indeed.
17 Q. And also a bullet fracture to the left -- to the seventh thoracic
18 vertebrae; right?
19 A. Correct.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would like to tender this document as well,
21 Mr. President.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P182, Your Honour.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to have the witness shown 65 ter 2692.
25 This is a document that shouldn't be broadcast also.
1 Q. Here we have an ICMP match report also, and this relates to
2 VRG-8, and the name indicated there is Mehmed Hajric; is that right?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. And did you review this document in relation to the preparation
5 of your report?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Mr. President, I'd like to have this
8 document also received in evidence under seal.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P183, under seal.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would like to have -- well, we have an
12 indication here that we have VRG-8. I would like to have the witness
13 shown 65 ter 2691, please.
14 Q. What I'm going to show you is the autopsy report for
15 Vragolovi-Rogatica body number 8, VRG-8, and I'd like to draw your
16 attention to the paragraph designated D, "Injuries." Did you review this
17 document in relation to preparing your report?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. And did you count this individual as a victim in your report?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And under D, it indicates here that for Mehmed Hajric, he
22 suffered shattered base and the top bones of the skull, facial bones and
23 maxilla by bullet, perforating wound through the stem of the sternum, and
24 also indicates that his death -- on the following page, if we go to
25 page 2 of both documents, under "Conclusion," it indicates that:
1 "The death was violent and caused directly due to shattering of
2 the top and base bones of the skull."
3 Did you consider that in preparing your report?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Mr. President, I'd like to tender this
6 document as well. It's 2691, 65 ter 2691.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. It will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P184, Your Honour.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Sorry. I would like to have the witness shown,
10 without broadcast, please, 65 ter 6255.
11 Q. This is a DNA
12 A. Yes, it is, in a different format, but it is a DNA match report
13 for Palic, Avdo.
14 Q. Okay. And for Avdo Palic, it's indicated the case number VRG-6;
16 A. Yes, his body was designated as body number 6 during the
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Just bear with me one moment.
19 I would like to have this tendered into evidence as well under
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is there a B/C/S translation?
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: I believe there -- I believe there is. If you
23 just bear with me one second, I think I can locate it.
24 Mr. President, I can't seem to locate it. There may not be one.
25 I don't see one here, so if we could have this marked for identification,
1 Mr. President, please.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, we will receive it and mark it for
4 THE REGISTRAR: 6255 will be P185, marked for identification, and
5 under seal, Your Honour.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Could I have the witness shown,
7 please, 65 ter 5775.
8 Q. And what I'm showing you here is the autopsy report for body
9 number 6, Vragolovi; Avdo Palic. And I would refer you to paragraph D
10 relating to injuries. Did you review this document in preparing your
12 A. Yes, I did, certainly.
13 Q. And did you consider the conclusions and the injuries in
14 determining whether to designate him as a victim that is counted for the
15 purposes of your report?
16 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And under D, we can see that it indicates the injuries suffered
18 were multiple bullet fractures to the temple bone from the left side;
19 bullet fractures of the upper mandible; bullet fractures of ribs 5, 6, 7,
20 lateral from the right side; and ribs 2, 3, 4, 6, 9 lateral from the left
21 side. And it also concludes, as with the others, that the death was
22 violent and caused directly by injury by -- caused directly to the head
23 injury, and also notes fractures of the temple bone from the left side,
24 the jaw, the ribs, and so on. Did you consider that in the preparation
25 of your report?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tenderer this
3 document as well into evidence.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P186.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, there are a number of other
7 documents related to the exhumation process concerning the Vragolovi
8 grave that is referred to -- the witness has referred to in his testimony
9 that I would like to tender as well, and I can describe them all for the
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'll make sure I'm not repeating myself.
13 6251 -- thank you. 6251, Mr. President, is a report from the Sarajevo
14 Canton Prosecution's Office concerning the re-exhumation of body number 6
15 that we've just seen now. 6252 -- wait a minute, I've got it backwards.
16 That's 6252, what I've just described. 6251 is the Sarajevo Cantonal
17 Prosecution court file concerning the exhumation of the Vragolovi
18 exhumation. Okay. 6253 is a document concerning the report on a DNA
19 sample taken for body number 6; again, Avdo Palic. 6254 are the
20 exhumation and photos of the Vragolovi grave that were taken during the
21 course of the exhumation, itself. 6256 - is that the one I just
22 tendered? - is the second report for Avdo Palic also from the ICMP. For
23 that one, I guess I will ask that it be received under seal. 6257 is the
24 University of Sarajevo
25 body number 1. 6258, also University of Sarajevo Institute for autopsy
1 report concerning body number 2. 6259, Sarajevo Institute autopsy report
2 concerning body number 3. 6260, Sarajevo Institute autopsy report
3 concerning body number 4. 6261, Sarajevo Institute autopsy report for
4 body number 7. 6262, Sarajevo Institute autopsy report for body
5 number 9. 6263 is a BiH Missing Persons Institute request concerning the
6 re-exhumation and taking of DNA
7 Avdo Palic.
8 May I proceed, Mr. President?
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These 12, if I'm not mistaken, exhibits will be
10 received, one under seal. This is 6256.
11 THE REGISTRAR: 6251 will be Exhibit P187. 6252 will be
12 Exhibit P188. 6253 will be Exhibit P189. 6258 [sic] will be
13 Exhibit P190. 6256 will be Exhibit P191, under seal. 6257 would be
14 Exhibit P192. 6258 will be Exhibit P193. 6259 will be Exhibit P194.
15 6260 will be Exhibit P195. 6261 will be Exhibit P196. 6262 will be
16 Exhibit P197. 6263 will be Exhibit P198.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thanks, Mr. President. In the record, it
20 appears that we have 6258 twice, as Exhibit 190 and as Exhibit 193, so I
21 just wanted to clarify that before we proceed.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P190 is 65 ter 6254. Exhibit P193 is
23 65 ter 6258.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Carry on, please.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE:
3 Q. Mr. Janc, in relation to some of the other smaller graves that
4 you considered in your report, did you review any documentation
5 concerning those graves?
6 A. Yes, I did, the same as for the other graves. I reviewed
7 documentation which we received by the BiH authorities on these graves,
9 Q. And would that include Brezljak?
10 A. Yes, also includes Brezljak grave, I also reviewed these
11 documents on this grave.
12 Q. Knezevici?
13 A. Yes, indeed, also for Knezevici.
14 Q. For Potocari?
15 A. Yes, for both Potocari ones, for 2006 and 2007 -- or we have two
16 graves in Potocari. One was exhumed in - just let me - 2006, yes. The
17 other in 2007.
18 Q. All right. I'd like to show you some documents just so that you
19 can identify them for the Court. One is 05794. If I could have that in
20 e-court, please.
21 I don't want to go all the way through the document, but do you
22 recognise what you see in front of you?
23 A. Yes. This is the photo documentation on the Brezljak grave.
24 Q. And did you review that material in relation to the preparation
25 of your report?
1 A. Yes, certainly.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: And if we could go to -- I think it should be
3 about page 4 in the English. Do we have an English version loaded in
4 e-court? No, okay. I think we can go to page 4 in the B/C/S.
5 Q. And I just want to ask you, are these some of the photos you
6 reviewed in relation to the preparation of your report concerning these
7 smaller graves?
8 A. Yes, indeed, and we can see here depicted on these pictures the
9 site of the grave, the grave-site.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Mr. President, I would offer this
11 document into evidence as well.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it there is no English translation of the
13 text yet.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: You know, I have one, but I don't think it's
15 been loaded into e-court. So if we can mark it for identification, and
16 I'll have the translation put in, please.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked.
18 THE REGISTRAR: 5794 will be Exhibit P199, marked for
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could I have 5780, please, shown to the witness.
21 Q. Do you recognise this document?
22 A. Yes, I recognise it. It is an autopsy -- autopsy report for the
23 Potocari 2006 grave of the individuals -- of the individual which was
24 found and designated as number -- body number 1.
25 Q. Okay. And the designation "POT," what does that relate to?
1 A. Yes. As I just explained, "POT02SRE," it relates to the Potocari
2 2006 exhumation which you can find in my report. The site code will be
3 listed under that grave.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to have this marked
5 for identification. I think we have the same issue with respect to the
6 English translation. And there are two other documents related to
7 this -- related to this exhumation, that I would like to tender as well.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This, what we have on the screen, will be marked.
9 THE REGISTRAR: 5780 will be P200, marked for identification.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: May I have on the screen, please, 5781.
11 Q. Do you recognise what you see on the screen, Mr. Janc?
12 A. Yes, indeed. This is exhumation report for the same -- for the
13 same exhumation of the Potocari 2006 grave. You see here it was done on
14 25th of April, 2006.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right, thank you for that.
16 Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document also into
17 evidence. It relates to the same exhumation at Potocari.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, it will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P201.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: May I have 65 ter 5782, please, shown to the
22 Q. All right. Do you recognise what you have on the screen in front
23 of you now?
24 A. Yes. It is a file cover for the same exhumation which we
25 received from the BiH authorities.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Mr. President, I'd like to have this
2 document also entered into evidence.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P202.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. If we could go now back to
6 65 ter 5754A, the annex to Mr. Janc's report, and then --
7 THE REGISTRAR: For the record, that is Exhibit P170.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. We need to go to page 35 in the
9 English, and we may need to straddle page 53 -- pages 53 and 54 in the
10 B/C/S. All right, I'm a little off, I think. We need to go to -- two
11 pages forward in the English. It should be ERN ending 6008.
12 Q. Okay. You have a reference here to individual graves in your
13 report, Mr. Janc. Could you tell us, basically, what this describes,
14 what this chart describes?
15 A. Yes. These are the graves which were also exhumed by the BiH
16 authorities and where only individuals bodies were found in it. So I
17 listed those 11 cases where the individual bodies were found inside these
18 graves, so -- and then I am referring them as individual graves. So you
19 will see in that table what site code was assigned to a particular grave
20 name, when they were exhumed. And then under the ERN column, the last
21 column, there is a reference to a documentation, where I got information
22 from on these graves.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. What I'd like to show you is 65 ter 5787.
24 Q. Do you recognise this document, Mr. Janc?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. And what does it concern?
2 A. This is a record of exhumation of one of those individual graves
3 which we have seen before. This one particularly refers to Krusev Do.
4 Q. And that's listed in your report?
5 A. Yes, indeed, it is there, yes.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Mr. President, I'd like to tender this
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P203.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would also like to show the witness
11 65 ter 5786.
12 Q. Do you recognise this document, Mr. Janc?
13 A. Yes. I've seen many of those documents, yeah --
14 Q. This document also relates to Krusev Do?
15 A. Just based on this document, I cannot say, because I don't see a
16 particular reference in this -- in this document. But I would need the
17 document before that, that I can check the reference number. If the
18 reference on the previous document is 16103, as we can see it here, then
19 it refers to that one, yes.
20 Q. Okay. And if you look on the second line in the English, you can
21 see the actual reference to exhumation of skeletal remains in Kr usev Do.
22 You see that there?
23 A. Yes, sorry, you are right. So, yes, I can confirm this one
24 relates to that particular grave.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document
1 as well.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P204.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: And I'd like to show the witness 5785, please.
5 Q. Do you recognise this document?
6 A. Yes. It is the same file cover we received from the BiH
7 authorities, and it refers to some of the graves I have been referring to
8 in my report.
9 Q. Okay. And can you just indicate for us, so that we know, what
10 they are. You see the designation "MOT," "RAL
11 A. Yes, "MOT
12 Brezljak, what we have been discussing before. "BALJ" would be
13 Baljkovica, and I think this one refers to surface remains. "MKOS," this
14 one is for Motovska Kosa. "MOT
15 all refer to particular grave-sites.
16 Q. And did you review those in this document, and specifically for
17 the locations that were indicated on the file cover, for the purposes of
18 your report?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Mr. President, I'd like to tender this
21 document as well into evidence.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P205.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could go back to P170, which I hope is
25 annex A to the witness's report. And we'll need to go to page 35 in
1 English, and straddle, again, pages 53 and 54 in B/C/S. The English may
2 be 37, as I think there was a mistake in the last time I showed it.
4 Q. Mr. Janc, you have a designation here "Others"?
5 A. Yes, indeed.
6 Q. Tell us about that, would you.
7 A. I briefly testified about it already yesterday. Those others are
8 designated for four different categories of the sites. The first one is
9 related to Serbia
11 next page, will be Kozluk surface remains. Then Godinjske Bare related.
12 And the last one, uncategorised sites.
13 Q. Let me ask you a little bit about the Serbia-related individuals.
14 Has your investigation -- can your investigation explain how that
15 came to be, that there were Srebrenica-related bodies recovered in
17 A. There can be several different reasons for that, but the closest
18 one will be because we know that Kozluk execution point was just next to
19 the Drina River
20 individuals and -- that there were cases where people fled from the
21 execution point and tried to cross the Drina River. So that would be one
22 reason why certain people were shot while trying to escape over the
23 Drina River
24 kilometres down in Serbia
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we can go to the following page in English,
1 ending ERN 6009, and I believe the following page in the B/C/S as well.
2 Q. And here you have a reference to surface remains, particularly in
3 Kozluk and Godinjske Bare. And I would ask you if you could explain to
4 the Trial Chamber why you've considered these surface remains separately
5 from the surface remains that are documented in annex B to your report.
6 Let's start with Kozluk.
7 A. Yes. Yesterday, I said that for Kozluk, it is difficult to
8 distinguish if those bodies were, indeed, just left on the surface or
9 they were initially buried. And after several years, when they were
10 exposed to different weather condition and due to natural causes, were
11 just found on the surface then, so that's why. And an additional reason
12 why I placed them here, they're out of the route where the column was
13 moving towards Nezuk, and they are very close to the execution point.
14 So, as such, it would be very unlikely that those bodies would be found
15 there and would be, I would say, combat casualties, so that's why I am
16 placing them here as "Others," because, indeed, I cannot clearly say if
17 they were part of this execution which was done at Kozluk site.
18 So next, the second one are Godinjske Bare individuals. Those
19 are related to the six individuals which were killed in Trnovo, and they
20 were -- this execution was actually filmed. And we know they are not
21 casualties of any combat, that they are casualties of the crime, and
22 that's why I place them here. Although found on the surface, we know
23 what was the fate of these individuals and how, actually, they were
25 Q. Are there any other -- any other surface remains that you
1 considered as victims of murder?
2 A. Yes, indeed, there is. There is one individual for which we know
3 was executed and is found on the surface, and, as such, is part of my
4 surface remains section. So there is an individual found in Tisova Kosa,
5 I think, and the individual was named by the Nezuk survivor who was
6 executed at that point at time -- in time together with him. So he
7 pointed at that individual, along with the others, and he was found on
8 the surface; not only him, but also the others, but we don't know the
9 other names which are around -- which were found around this individual
10 named by the Nezuk survivor, were not identified by this Nezuk survivor.
11 So it's only one individual who was there.
12 And also by this Nezuk survivor, there is another individual
13 mentioned who was then found in Brezljak grave, taken away from that spot
14 and mentioned -- and found in Brezljak grave.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the Court's -- for the record, the Nezuk
16 survivor that the witness is referring to is the subject of a pending
17 92 bis application as PW-0001 -- 009, 009.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: A question from Judge Mindua.
19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, while the Prosecutor is
20 putting his house in order, I have a short question for you.
21 I'm concerned about these surface remains. I had already put
22 this question to one of the witnesses that came before us. I wanted to
23 know what the cause for death would be in that instance, and the witness
24 had said that it was most probably due to combat, the person was killed
25 in combat, because the person would have -- the people who were executed
1 had actually been buried. But in light of the explanation you have
2 provided, you are saying that among the surface remains that you found,
3 there would probably be the remains of people who had been executed. My
4 question, therefore, is to know whether you conducted any analysis or
5 whether you used any methods to mark a distinction between those remains
6 you found on the surface and those people who had been executed, on the
7 one hand, and those persons who would have died in combat. Do you have a
8 way of establishing a difference between the two?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. It's -- it's not easy to
10 distinguish between the two, especially for those which are found on a
11 surface. The best way we have right now is to check the witness
12 statements, as it was with this one with the Nezuk survivor, where he
13 identified several other individuals being shot together with him and now
14 they are found on the surface. For such individuals, we can certainly
15 say, yes, they are not -- they are not -- they are not killed in combat,
16 but they are executed, they are part of the crime.
17 On the other hand, for -- for establishing, for example, the
18 cause of death and everything, we would need every -- for every single
19 person found on the surface, we would need the autopsy records and all
20 the other documentation. That one we don't have for every single
21 individual. And since the surface remains were never that -- part of
22 this Srebrenica investigation, we were always more interested in what is
23 found in the grave.
24 I can say that we don't have, for every single individual -- or
25 that we have for only a minority of these individuals found on the
1 surface, that we have documentation on them. But regardless of that, we
2 have witness statements and documents which are referring to combat
3 activities in the area of where the column was passing, and based on
4 those we can see -- we can say that most -- most probably most of those
5 found on the surface were casualties of the combats.
6 On the other hand, we also have instances where we have that some
7 of them committed suicides during this breakthrough, then some of them
8 were just casualties of the minefields, and, as we can see now, based on
9 the witness statements, some of them were executed.
10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. That is
11 extremely clear.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could go to P170, and I believe it's
13 page 37 in English -- no, 39 in English, and it should be page 55 --
14 yeah, it will be 55 and 56 in B/C/S.
15 Q. Now, in this part of your report, you've indicated "Uncategorised
16 Sites," and if you could just explain, very briefly, what that is.
17 I think you covered some of that your answer to Judge Mindua's question,
18 but if you could tell us basically what this chart shows and what it
20 A. These are 38 individuals which were found in different locations.
21 And while requesting for documentation on these particular sites, we
22 haven't received -- or the documentation we received was insufficient to
23 conclude if they were found on the surface or were found in graves. They
24 are Srebrenica-related victims, because they are on a missing list, but
25 we cannot say if they were found in the graves or on the surface. That's
1 why I separated them from other countings.
2 Q. And in relation to what you've related to us concerning the Nezuk
3 surface remains, can you tell us anything in relation to the Snagovo
5 A. Related to Snagovo, I actually don't -- Snagovo graves. I know
6 we have Snagovo. Snagovo is the area where we have Hodzici -- Hodzici
7 graves, secondary graves, but --
8 Q. I've misspoken about the graves. But concerning the Snagovo
9 incident, do you have any information concerning surface remains, related
10 to that?
11 A. I cannot remember it from the top of my head right now.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Can we go to P170, page 38 in English. It will
13 be 55 in B/C/S. All right, I've misspoken again. Not 38; it will be 40.
14 Okay. I think we have to go to the bottom of the page to find it in
15 B/C/S. It's 57 in B/C/S.
16 Q. Can you tell us what this chart shows, Mr. Janc?
17 A. This chart shows the number -- the total number of identified
18 individuals per certain execution site. So I've put together the numbers
19 we can see at the beginning of my report for particular execution site.
20 For example, here we can see, for Kravica and others, so we know that
21 execution site at Kravica, that the bodies were removed to Glogova
22 primary grave and Drnica [phoen] primary grave, and that at Glogova site
23 also the other bodies were buried. So the bodies which were picked up in
24 Bratunac, then along the Konjevic -- some of the bodies along the
25 Konjevic Polje road, and some of the individuals which were captured by
1 Serbian authorities and returned back to Bosnia authorities from 20th of
2 July onwards. So those bodies are also there. That's why we cannot
3 distinguish how many of them have been, indeed, taken from Kravica
4 execution point. But based on the information we have for the other
5 sites, based on the witness statements, witness testimony, we can
6 conclude that most of them are for sure taken from Kravica. So most of
7 the totals, 1.334 individuals which were found in Glogova and
8 Kravica-related primary and secondary graves must have been executed at
9 Kravica, because there is not many of the individuals -- I would say
10 around 300, maximum 400, which were taken from the other sites, Bratunac,
11 along the road, and from the other incidents.
12 Q. And do you have any forensic -- that is, non-DNA-related
13 information concerning establishing a connection between Kravica,
14 Glogova, and any associated graves?
15 A. Yes. Yes, we have also other evidence which links these
16 secondary and primary graves, and we'll see what kind of evidence we have
17 when we'll be going over my charts.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If we could just go to the next
19 page, I think, in both documents. Yes.
20 Q. Here we see, at the bottom, it says "All sites total," the number
21 is "5390." That's different than the number 5777 that you've indicated
22 in the main section of your report. Could you explain to the
23 Trial Chamber why that is different?
24 A. Yes, I include it here and counted only the numbers where we have
25 primary and related secondary graves, and these are the biggest execution
1 sites. And I did not count into these totals the sites where we have
2 primary undisturbed graves: For example, here we don't have the Cerska
3 execution -- Cerska mass grave, Bisina, Mrsici, and other graves. So
4 what I counted here, so what you can see here, all sites total, this is
5 related to the sites you can see in this table only. So -- and you can
6 see, for example, breaking down totals for particular execution sites, as
7 this Orahovac we have 830; Petkovci, 809; Kozluk, 761; and
8 Branjevo-Pilica, 1656, which in a way shows us a pattern that around
9 800 people have been executed at certain execution point, although we
10 have to be careful with that because we don't have -- not all the
11 individuals have been identified yet from these execution sites.
12 Especially, we are still waiting some identifications to be made from
13 Cancari 1 and Cancari 8, which were exhumed and not counted yet for this,
14 but we will have roughly these numbers as they are here. They will be
15 growing for each of these sites, but around 800 people per execution
17 Q. I just want to focus you, if I can, on the totals that you've
18 indicated here for Kozluk and for Branjevo in this report. It appears
19 you've indicated that the total Kozluk-related graves is 761. Is that
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. And then for Branjevo-Pilica-related graves, 1656?
23 A. Yes, indeed.
24 Q. And with respect to the Branjevo and Pilica graves, is that
25 number more or less consistent with the evidence that the investigation
1 has revealed?
2 A. Yes, I can say -- I can confirm that, because in Branjevo
3 Military Farm grave-site we have the bodies which were executed at
4 Branjevo and also the bodies which were taken from Pilica Cultural Dom
5 and taken to this primary grave. So -- and based on the investigation
6 and witness statements and everything, we can conclude that this is
7 quite -- quite exact number, yes.
8 Q. But, again, that's different than the number that you had
9 indicated in relation to your report from 2009, right, March 2009?
10 A. Yes, indeed, because, I mean, March 2009, Cancari Road 5 was --
11 Cancari Road 4 and 5, as well as 6, were attached to the Kozluk execution
13 Q. And so the totals that you had at that point in March 2009 were
14 960 for Branjevo -- is that right?
15 A. Yes, that must be right.
16 Q. And 1.040 for Kozluk?
17 A. Yes, indeed.
18 Q. I'd like to move into your section concerning the surface remains
19 as annex B to your report. It should be, really, just the next page.
20 Okay. And the following page, we can see the text. It should be the
21 same also in the B/C/S.
22 And we've talked a bit about surface remains. Can you just tell
23 us how this section of your report is organised, in brief terms. And, in
24 particular, if you could focus on these four categories that are
25 indicated in the fourth paragraph of the report. It will have to be the
1 next page for the B/C/S.
2 A. Yes. First we have a brief summary of how I -- how I have
3 analysed these data. Based on which information I have received from
4 different sources, I have came up with the total numbers of the
5 individuals found on the surface. Those individuals will all appear --
6 and all appears on the ICMP identification list, also, along with the
7 individuals which are found in the graves. So in order -- in order to
8 distinguish them, you have to know what particular site code has been
9 attached to these surface remains. And when you find that a particular
10 site code was attached to a certain site, and that surface remains were
11 collected, then you know that you can attach these individuals found on
12 the surface, and if they are Srebrenica-related victims, inside certain
14 And for Srebrenica, because I distinguished between
15 Srebrenica-related surface remains and then we have also Zepa-related
16 surface remains, which were not part of my previous report, we have
17 15 individuals from Zepa, but -- so the others -- the others, 688, are
18 related to Srebrenica. And I have categorised these surface remains into
19 four areas, as you can see here. The Pobudje area, which is stretching
20 south of the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road, then the Baljkovica area, the
21 Snagovo area, which are all the area which are on the route where the
22 column was passing in 1995 -- July 1995.
23 And then I have other areas here. These are the areas which are
24 outside of the above-mentioned area but are relatively close, still close
25 to these areas. We will have a map showing of where these surface
1 remains were actually found. And if you go to the next page, we'll see
2 how many of those individuals were found in certain areas.
3 Q. All right. Let's take a look at that.
4 A. Yeah, this is the one. And for Pobudje area, you can see here
5 that the most -- the most individuals have been found there, so along --
6 in the woods along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. So it is in the
7 area leading down from Buljim up to Konjevic Polje area. So in this
8 area, the most of them have been collected from the ground and so far
9 identified. We have almost -- it is 558 individuals so far identified in
10 that area.
11 Then next area would be Baljkovica, where we have 66 of them
12 identified. So this is the second-largest area, and we know that there
13 were -- there was fighting going on and a breakthrough of the Muslim
14 column, and this is not surprising me, that we have -- we have surface
15 remains there.
16 And also then we have a few of them -- I would say 16 of them in
17 Snagovo area, which is south of Zvornik, I would say between those two
18 areas we have been discussing before, between Pobudje and Baljkovica
19 area, so in the area between those two.
20 And then we have other -- other areas, where we have
21 48 individuals so far identified.
22 Q. All right. I just want to show you a map, and if you could
23 relate that to the areas that you've just indicated. It's 65 ter 5416.
24 And we'll have to go -- I'd like to go, actually, first to the last page.
25 I think it's page 23. Yes, that's right.
1 And I'd like to have the witness mark this map, please, just so
2 you can indicate for the Trial Chamber where the respective areas are
3 that you're referring to, Pobudje, Baljkovica, Snagovo, and the other
4 areas you've indicated.
5 A. Yes. First of all, I would like to say that we received this map
6 from the BiH Commission on Missing Persons, and based on their data they
7 provided on these surface remains, they have also created this map for us
8 in order to present geographically where these bodies are located. So --
9 and I can mark -- I can mark the areas which I am referring in my report.
10 And I have to emphasise, before I mark, that not all the individuals we
11 can see on this map have been identified already. So -- but the
12 concentration of these individuals would be -- would be the same,
13 regardless of if they were identified yet or not.
14 So I would first mark the area of Pobudje.
15 Q. And if you could designate that "P" so that we know how to find
17 A. [Marks] This is the area where we have the highest concentration
18 of the identifications and surface remains.
19 Then the second area is Snagovo area [marks]. I will mark it
20 as S. And then we have Baljkovica area. I'll mark it as B [marks]. And
21 then we have other areas, so I can just mark few of them that you can
22 have -- I will mark them as O [marks], and this O [marks], and this O
23 [marks], also this one down there, O [marks]. Yeah, and these are the
24 other areas. So they are -- if you can see here that the areas from
25 Pobudje up to the north, towards Baljkovica, is the area where the column
1 was passing. All the other areas are relatively close to these areas,
2 but not on the exact route. But we know that people were running
3 different directions, so the large quantity of people were moving towards
4 Nezuk, but some of them were just fleeing another direction. So it's not
5 surprising me to find some other individuals in the other areas also.
6 Q. All right. I just want to show you -- yes. I'd like to have
7 this admitted, Mr. President, please.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This map with the markings will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P206.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: And then I'd like to have the witness shown the
11 page just previous to this and have him mark that as well.
12 Q. And what I'd like you to indicate for the Trial Chamber is the
13 direction of the column as the investigation has revealed it to be.
14 A. Yes, no problem. So the direction of the column is going from
15 here [marks]. It crosses the road here [marks]. So then it goes up
16 towards the north and crosses the road again here [marks], and towards
17 Nezuk. So this is the route of the column.
18 Q. And if you would, could you write "Nezuk" at the top of your
19 arrow so we know what direction that's intended to point.
20 A. [Marks]
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right, thank you for that. I'd like to
22 tender this marked map as well.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received. And Judge Nyambe has a
24 question for the witness.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay, thank you.
1 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay, thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First the number, please, exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P207.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
5 Judge Nyambe.
6 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you. I just need your help to understand
7 your submission with regard to the Srebrenica surface remains.
8 On the previous document, you said something to the effect that
9 the locations where some correlated surface remains have been collected,
10 they were consistent with the route of the Muslim column; is that
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed.
13 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay. The surface remains, therefore, on this
14 route, can you tell or are you able to say how they died?
15 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I think that for most of them, as I
16 explained before, we can say they are combat casualties. But for some of
17 them, we know from witness statements and other information we have, that
18 they have died -- they committed suicide or died when passing the
19 minefields, and some of them were killed, executed. So in order to
20 confirm or to find more about how they died, we would need to look into
21 every single case, every single autopsy report, and to get -- to have
22 additional investigation on that, which would take a lot of time. And as
23 I also said, we don't have these autopsy reports, all of them, here in
24 house. Certainly, we can request them and try to find additional
25 indication of how they died, but I'm quite concerned that we'll get any
1 specific results on that.
2 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you. I have one other question.
3 Earlier on in your testimony, you said something about a
4 secondary grave being robbed. I don't know if you've got an answer, but
5 if you have, I would appreciate it. Do you have any idea what would have
6 been the intent or the motive to rob the secondary grave?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. Our assumption is, because this
8 secondary grave is just next to a river, I think it's Jadar River
9 that area, and, again, as it was the case most probably with Kozluk
10 surface remains, it was the case also here that the river actually opened
11 the grave and suddenly these surface remains appeared on -- these remains
12 inside the secondary grave appeared on the surface. And that's why,
13 according to our assumption, they were moved to another location.
14 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 I would like to tender the document, itself -- that is, the
18 unmarked version of the document 5416, into evidence.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is it the map we have before us on the screen?
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: It actually is a series of maps, that's correct,
21 that indicates the surface remains that were recovered -- or located, I
22 should say, by the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, and it goes back to,
23 I think, 1996, all the way up through 2008.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How many maps are there?
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: There are as many maps as there are pages, and I
1 believe there are 23.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Of course, a map can't be translated, but there
3 is a legend and some explanations seen only in B/C/S. Will there be a
4 translation of these portions?
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I suppose we'll have to translate them,
6 Mr. President. We'll do that. So I guess I will ask this to be marked
7 for identification, pending translation.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The maps will be marked for identification.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P208, marked for identification.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At this point in time, I should mention something
11 else related to translations.
12 At page 47, lines 1 to 6 of today's transcript, we have received
13 a large number of documents from P187 to P198. I was informed that
14 several of these documents are not attached by a translation. In detail,
15 P188, 189, and 190 have no English translation, and P191 has no B/C/S
16 translation. If you agree with me, then we should only mark them for
17 identification, pending translation.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: I do agree with you. Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These will be marked for identification, pending
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have a few other documents I'd just like to
22 show the witness in respect of these surface remains. One, I think, is
23 5 -- I'm sorry, it's 65 ter 5777.
24 Q. Do you recognise what you see there on the screen, Mr. Janc?
25 A. Yes, indeed. These are the tables -- data on the surface remains
1 we received from the BiH Institute on Missing Persons.
2 Q. And was this relied upon in preparing your report?
3 A. Yes, indeed, because these -- I've used this information when
4 analysing the data on surface remains.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document
6 as well.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P209.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to have the witness shown 65 ter 2625.
10 Q. Do you recognise this document, Mr. Janc?
11 A. Yes. It's an exhumation record on some -- on -- yeah, on some of
12 the exhumation sites I have been referring to.
13 Q. Okay. And it refers, in particular, to Staro Selo, Knezevici,
14 Seferovici, Zulici. Are those referred to in your report?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And did you rely on this document in preparing your report as
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document
20 as well.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P210.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE:
24 Q. Now if you could tell us, how many surface remains, in total, did
25 you calculate?
1 A. You mean identified individuals from the surface or surface
2 remains which were collected?
3 Q. Surface remains in total, yeah, that were collected.
4 A. It's around 950, something like that. I think 961, I've seen the
5 number on my report, surface remains cases.
6 Q. And how many did you -- how many did you determine were
7 identified, or were you able to identify in your report?
8 A. So we have 703 identified individuals out of these surface
9 remains cases.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Mr. President, I'm about to move to
11 another section. I see that it's time for the break, and I know that
12 I've estimated, well, I'd have to say, rather egregiously incorrectly the
13 amount of time it would take to lead this witness, so I apologise for
14 that. But I am moving into my last section, and depending on how things
15 go, I may actually fill up the whole session, but I'm hoping not to.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that. We were considering that as
17 well already. I think we've used double time now.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, double.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you should try to finish today.
20 We have to have our second break now, and we will resume at 1.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Mr. Janc, as I just indicated, we're about to move to a different
1 section. But before we do, I just wanted to ask you, very quickly: In
2 terms of the numbers of individuals you counted, did you take into
3 consideration individuals that are mentioned in the indictment, such as
4 those individuals concerning the Milici -- well, concerning the Milici
5 patients, for example? Did you take into consideration those individuals
6 in arriving at a total number of Srebrenica-related victims?
7 A. No, they are not included into my total numbers because of
8 the certain reason, because they were not found and identified yet. So
9 they are part of my report as mentioned being the ones who are still --
10 who still yet to be identified and are among those, I would say 1300,
11 which are still on the missing list which are not yet identified, and
12 they are on the missing list. So these are -- yes, they were not counted
13 in these total numbers, and I'm referring here to these Milici patients
14 and also the Branjevo Farm survivors.
15 Q. And with respect to the victims of the Trnovo executions, can you
16 tell us how -- well, first of all, did you count those individuals as
17 Srebrenica-related victims?
18 A. Yes, indeed, they are part of my report under Godinjske Bare
20 Q. And how did you connect them to the events in Srebrenica?
21 A. Because they were -- they appear -- their names appears on the
22 ICRC missing list, and, as such, they were identified through the DNA by
23 the ICMP.
24 Q. And has the investigation given you any indication as to how
25 these particular individuals basically got from Srebrenica to Trnovo, the
1 circumstances under which -- under which they got there? Do you have any
2 indication as to had?
3 A. As we can see from the video, they were -- they were there,
4 executed by the members of the Serb paramilitary forces, I think. So
5 that's how they have made it there. I cannot remember from the top of my
7 Q. Okay. And now I'd like to go to a different area of your
8 evidence, and that concerns annex C of your report. As you know, I've
9 gotten myself into a situation where I'm a little bit pressed for time,
10 so I'll try to go a little bit quickly through this.
11 Annex C is found -- it's P170. Annex C is page 64 in the B/C/S,
12 and in the English it should be page 45. All right, wrong again.
13 Page 47 in the English. All right. And we can go to the first page of
14 each of these, please.
15 All right. If you could briefly familiarise the Trial Chamber
16 with the purpose of this chart and what annex C generally shows.
17 A. Annex C is related to DNA
18 based on the ICMP data we have been provided with between the primary
19 graves -- primary/secondary graves and secondary graves, itself. So when
20 analysing the ICMP data, we have found several individuals which were
21 found in two different graves, some of them even in three different
22 graves. And in case -- to establish a DNA connection, what this term
23 actually means, it is one DNA
24 different graves. So if one -- if body parts of one individuals -- of
25 one individual were found in two different graves, that would mean one
2 And as you can see in my table, there are different numbers. And
3 when I say number of DNA
4 that one individual was found in two different graves.
5 And you can see different colours inside my table under "DNA
6 Connections," "Connection Between" column, and those relates -- when you
7 see in green, it means there is a DNA
8 primary and a secondary grave. And those in blue represent the DNA
9 connection between the secondary graves, itself. So then the number of
10 established connections, you can see under the last column. So we'll
11 have two different colours on the second page. One would be the
12 actual -- related to the connections between the disturbed primary
13 graves, itself, and the last one would be the connection established
14 between the execution point, in that case Kravica execution point, and
15 secondary mass grave.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could go briefly to page 50 in the
17 English, and I believe it will be -- it should be three pages up in the
18 B/C/S, and that should be 67 -- or 68, 68.
19 Q. Okay. Are you able to tell us -- well, we can see, actually, the
20 three different colours or so represented in certain totals here, and
21 you've indicated six primary-to-primary DNA connections; 265
22 primary-to-secondary DNA
23 connections; and 1, it says, total execution site secondary graves. For
24 a total of 679 DNA
25 A. Yes, that's right, I was able to establish 679 connections in
1 total when analysing the ICMP data. And we have been talking about the
2 methodology, how it was done, when I was testifying about the sample
3 page 7 and 6 before, so how it was done with the actual ICMP data that I
4 analysed in order to get to a conclusion of total cases.
5 Q. First, let me ask you -- if we can go to the following page for
6 both documents. This is an index part of annex C. And in terms of
7 counting these DNA
8 Trial Chamber how did you that. I'm going to refer to you a particular
9 line, if we can get it big enough to see, and it should be midway down --
10 midway down the page, it's "7322-06." You'll see that in the far left
11 column, "Protocol ID." It's right in the middle, and it indicates
12 Bljeceva 1, Bljeceva 2 - do you see that, Mr. Janc - and then there is a
13 series of entries under the case ID. There are one, two, three, four,
14 five, six entries.
15 A. Yes, I can explain. And before that I do that, I would like to
16 just explain one more thing.
17 When I said that certain individual -- body parts of certain
18 individuals were found in even three graves, those connections would be
19 counted as three connections, which is between grave-site A and B, B and
20 C, and A and C. So although they are related to only one individual
21 which was found in three different graves, there would be -- this
22 individual would be counted -- not individual, but rather the connection
23 would be counted three times, because we have -- actually, we have three
24 connections. So -- but I think I have -- we have around 30 or 40 of such
25 individuals, so the total number of 676 connections are related to
1 six hundred - I think - eighteen individuals.
2 And let me comment on this now. Yes, here we can see this is a
3 reorganised chart when we have made and concluded the analysis of the
4 chart of the ICMP data. So we have reorganised it in order to present it
5 to the Trial Chamber and to easier -- for easier understanding.
6 As you can see, the first column, there is a protocol ID, and
7 what I have been already discussing, the protocol ID is the most
8 important indicator or the most important information inside the ICMP
9 data about the unique DNA
10 that's what we have been looking for. And if we found this protocol ID
11 in two different graves, actually, that body -- body parts were found in
12 two different graves and then attached to the same protocol ID, it means
13 that one individual was found in two different graves.
14 And here we can see site number 1, it refers -- and site
15 number 2, it refers easily to the grave-sites, and we can see for this
16 particular individual that body parts were found in Bljeceva 1 and
17 Bljeceva 2 secondary graves.
18 And then if we move to the columns right, where it says at the
19 top "Case IDs of the same protocol ID," so we have been able to find, in
20 this ICMP data, that many case IDs for this particular protocol ID. So
21 it means here, for Bljeceva 1, one body part of this individual was found
22 in Bljeceva 1 secondary grave. The other five body parts were identified
23 in Bljeceva 2 graves -- secondary graves. And regardless of this fact
24 that we have so many body parts found, this individual would be counted
25 only as one connection.
1 Q. Thank you for that. Off the top of your head, what's the --
2 what's the largest number of graves that you've been able to match to any
3 one given individual?
4 A. I think there is one individual with four sites.
5 Q. And is that indicated in this index?
6 A. Yes. This is index -- beginning of the index, and it is in
7 alphabetical order. And, yeah, all the individuals and the connections I
8 have been referring in numbers before, what we have been reviewing
9 before, you will find all the information, who those are, within this --
10 within this index.
11 Q. And within this index, did you count every individual -- I should
12 say: Did you count every DNA
13 you found?
14 A. No. We found more connections, and some of them were not counted
15 for the purposes of this analysis. And regardless of that fact, I have
16 also included those found on the ICMP data but not counted into my
17 report, and those are the last two pages of this index. And when we go
18 there, I can explain why I haven't counted these particular individuals
19 for this -- for my report.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we can go to page 71 in the English, I think.
21 It's actually, I think, 72 in the English. And in the B/C/S, just bear
22 with me one second. 91? 91 in the B/C/S.
23 We're just going to locate it, but I think you can explain
24 briefly, while we do.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes. What we see on the screen, so this is the
1 page I was referring to. These are the cases I have not counted into
2 my -- into my final numbers. So -- and as you can see, the first column,
3 we inserted here the first column, wherever you see the not counted ones,
4 it means that they were not counted for the purposes of my report. And
5 if you go over them. So we have most of them on this not counted ones
6 refers to the Ravnice 1, Ravnice 2. And the reason why I haven't
7 included, although they are very significant ones, is that we consider
8 this grave as a 1, primary grave, but we know that those bodies were
9 exposed -- they were just dumped down the road and covered with some
10 soil, and over the years the bodies fell apart, and several bodies were
11 found in one place and several bodies, you know, a few metres apart from
12 these. So that's one part of them which I haven't counted, because these
13 are actually -- this is undisturbed mass primary grave, and I haven't
14 counted the undisturbed graves.
15 Q. Is there a similar explanation for the Glogova 2 graves?
16 A. Yes, indeed, because Glogova 2 consists of several sub-graves
17 which were numbered from Glogova 2 up to Glogova 9, and this is actually
18 one biggest -- big grave, consists of several smaller graves.
19 Q. All right. And so your total doesn't include every single DNA
20 connection that you've been able to find; is that --
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. Now, you've also dealt with somewhat unusual cases concerning
23 your DNA
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
1 A. Yes. These are, I think, five cases which you can find on this
2 spreadsheet. And if you take a look into the case under -- where we see
3 the protocol ID 2741-03, yes, this one, it says site 1 is Glogova 5; then
4 site 2 and site 3 are Kozluk 3 and Cancari 3. So this would mean that
5 there are -- there is a connection, DNA connection, that one
6 individual -- body parts of one individual were found in these two
7 secondary graves. And why it is unusual? Because Glogova 5 is in the
8 area south, and Kozluk and Cancari also are in the area north, and based
9 on the evidence we have so far about the connection between the graves,
10 it would be -- this connection would be very unusual, because we don't
11 have any confirmation that Glogova-related graves are connected somehow
12 to Cancari graves. So the same would be for several other cases.
13 We can see here, for example, the first entry, here we have a
14 different situation. The first entry, it is the connection, DNA
15 connection, established between Cerska and Hodzici 2 and 3. We know that
16 Cerska grave is a primary grave, not disturbed one, and it would be very
17 unusual that there would be a connection. And when I have been looking
18 into this particular case, I have found out that there have been twins
19 which were identified -- which one of them was identified under the same
20 protocol ID. And my conclusion would be that there is an actual problem,
21 because I know that when you have twins, the twins have the unique DNA
22 profile, and in that case I would say it's most probably that one of the
23 bodies was found in Cerska 2, the other brother was found in
24 Hodzici Road
25 samples, there is a match now in ICMP records. So -- and for these cases
1 which were unusual to us, we have sent -- and I also reviewed the autopsy
2 records, and for some of those cases I found that same pieces of bodies
3 were tested and found as being one -- part of one individual, which is
4 impossible, and that's why we have sent the information to the ICMP in
5 order to get the clarification from their side what would that -- what
6 would that be.
7 Q. Okay. I'd like to show you, if I could, 5763 in e-court. Do you
8 recognise what's on the screen in front of you?
9 A. Yes, I recognise it. That is their response in relation to these
10 unusual cases we have asked them for.
11 Q. Okay. And they've indicated some explanations for why this
12 phenomena could occur?
13 A. Yes, indeed.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to offer this into
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P211.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: And I would like to have P170 shown to the
19 witness again. And I think we were on page 91 in the B/C/S and page 76
20 in the English, but I'd like to go forward just a page or two. So it
21 should be 78, I think, in the English. It's a chart. And it should be
22 93 or 94 in the B/C/S.
23 All right. We're going to have to move back a little bit.
24 I think I've given you the wrong page in the English. 95 in B/C/S, and
25 then in English it should be 73, I think. 74.
1 Q. All right, Mr. Janc -- all right, if we could just focus in on
2 the left side of that chart. It's chart number 1 in your index. Yeah,
3 even more left, just the last -- the left-most sides, Branjevo and
5 And I'd like you to, just as briefly as possible, take us through
6 this and show what it represents, because I'm going to show a map which
7 will, I think, more clearly illustrate the connection that you found in
8 your chart. So if you could, just tell us, briefly, what this shows and
9 how to read it.
10 A. Yes, and I see here that the B/C/S version on the left-hand side
11 is better as regard to the colours, so I would rather refer to this one
12 as refers -- as it refers -- when in relation to the colours, when I will
13 be talking what a certain colour means, I will be referring to this one,
14 because the English version did not come out well when scanned.
15 And these charts represent the visualisation, what we have been
16 seeing before. Before, in front of us there was a table of the actual --
17 the number of different connections between these sites, and here we have
18 the visualisation that you can -- that you can have an idea how these
19 sites are related between each other. And I will start with the
20 rectangles or these, rather, squares, what different colours represent.
21 In brown -- brown squares represent the sites which were exhumed
22 by the ICTY. The green ones represent the sites which were exhumed by
23 the BiH authorities. And then we have -- far right, we do not see it
24 right now on this chart, but it is up there on the right, right upper
25 corner. It is the yellowish colour which represents the execution site
2 So then you can see here the certain lines going down to certain
3 clusters of the secondary graves. At the top, there are primary
4 grave-sites listed. And then at the bottom there are secondary graves
5 related to these sites. We'll see later on sub-charts that will have
6 deeper view of the particular grave-sites, but just as a general view of
7 how these graves sites are related to each other, based on the DNA
8 connections which represent the red lines going down from, example, from
9 Kozluk down to clusters of Cancari Road graves, we have 71 cases. It
10 means 71 DNA
11 Cancari secondary graves. Then the same is for Branjevo, and we have 37
12 of those cases. Then the blue lines represent the connections which have
13 been established based on the forensic findings. And, for example, we
14 can see here that Branjevo Military Farm, we have connection -- that
15 forensic corrections have been established through soil and pollen
16 samples, blindfolds and ligatures; and for Kozluk site we received even
17 more such forensic connections. And then below --
18 Q. I'm sorry. Is that indicated with references to bottles, labels,
19 glass, pollen samples, and so on?
20 A. Yes, indeed.
21 Q. And below that, we have the green boxes of the secondary graves
22 you've indicated. What are the pink lines between those?
23 A. Yes. Between the -- below them, we have the green boxes and also
24 the brown boxes, because they were exhumed either by ICTY or the BiH
25 authorities. The purple lines we can see inside here represent the
1 connections between the secondary graves, itself.
2 Q. And these are DNA
3 A. Yes, indeed, these are only DNA connections.
4 Q. All right. If we could just go to the far right of the screen.
5 Now, here you've indicated the Kravica warehouse. That's indicated in a
6 yellowish box.
7 A. Yes, the last -- it's the last box at the top right corner. It
8 is Kravica warehouse. And we have established the connection to DNA as
9 well as through forensic shell casings connections.
10 Q. Okay. And these are shell casing connections from the Kravica
11 warehouse linked to the Zeleni Jadar mass graves; is that how to read
13 A. Yes, to Zeleni -- exactly, to Zeleni Jadar mass graves. And
14 we'll see on our sub-charts to which exactly it is related.
15 Q. Well, I think you might want to tell us now, since we've only got
16 10 minutes left, or 15 minutes, if you can recall exactly, what the
17 nature is of those forensic connections are, because I'm going to need to
18 move to the map.
19 A. Yeah, but it will be -- if you just go to the first one after
20 this one, just to show and to present how to read the -- otherwise,
21 because the others are the same, similar.
22 Q. All right. Let's take a look at that.
23 A. Just one after this one, if we can move.
24 Q. Yeah, maybe you can start with the English.
25 A. Yes. Here we can see the actual DNA and forensic connections
1 between these sites. And as you can see, for the left part of it, these
2 are the -- at the top, we have again the primary grave-site, Branjevo and
3 Kozluk, and in the bottom -- at the bottom, then we can see how the
4 secondary graves and which of them are actually related -- connected to
5 this particular primary grave. So the red line which goes from Branjevo
6 down, the red lines, and written how many cases we have, this refers to
7 the DNA
8 between Branjevo and particular secondary Cancari Road graves. Then we
9 have certain lines between the secondary graves, itself. And you can see
10 how many cases have been connected to particular -- to other secondary
11 graves. And then we have the blue line going down, and it's the same.
12 It represents the forensic evidence. And here we can see exactly to
13 which secondary grave, in this case Cancari Road 12, Branjevo primary
14 grave was related.
15 Q. And you have a line here that says "ID" on that. Can you tell us
16 what that means.
17 A. Yes, indeed. For Cancari Road 8, we don't have any
18 identifications yet, but what I was able to identify was the ID number of
19 one individual found in the Cancari Road 8 secondary grave. The body
20 parts of this same individual were already before identified at
21 Branjevo -- at Branjevo primary grave, so that's why I can link this
22 Cancari Road 8 grave to a primary Branjevo grave.
23 So then at the bottom, far left at the bottom, you can see the
24 total number of the cases. So it means for Branjevo-related graves,
25 secondary and primary, there is 172 connections -- DNA connections on
1 this chart in total. So that's why I was telling that we can -- we can
2 say, with a great level of certainty, that these graves are, indeed,
3 connected to Branjevo Military Farm. The same is to Kozluk site. And at
4 the bottom, we can see one case which goes between Cancari Road 11 and
5 Cancari Road 7, so it means it goes to unrelated secondary graves. So it
6 is not that impossible that we have a connection -- one DNA connection
7 between these site, because we know that those sites were reburied at
8 rather same period of time. Most probably, the same transport means were
9 used, and it might be that there was a contamination case, so that some
10 body parts remained on the truck and then were just -- when they were
11 loaded with the bodies from another primary graves, were just disposed
12 into the -- into another secondary grave. So -- but if there is one case
13 only, that's not that strong connection. And it might be also that there
14 is a possible different -- there is a kind of different reason for that,
15 so --
16 Q. All right. I'd like to show you 65 ter 6271. It should be a
18 And while that's loading, I noticed you mentioned something about
19 possible contamination through the same -- through the use of the same
20 transportation methods in order to rebury, exhume -- exhume and rebury
21 these individuals from these graves. And I wonder if you might describe,
22 in as brief terms as possible, the types of vehicles, machines that were
23 involved in the exhumation and reburial of these bodies from mass
24 graves -- from primary graves to secondary graves. What kinds of
25 vehicles were involved in those?
1 A. Yes, I'm aware of there -- there were trucks and lorries involved
2 in the transportation of the bodies, and the front loaders, I think, for
3 the excavation of the actual bodies from the primary graves and also for
4 preparing the secondary graves.
5 Q. And do you have any information as to how extensive the -- how
6 extensive the damage was to the bodies done by the equipment that was
7 used to bury and rebury, from your review of the forensic information in
8 this case?
9 A. Yes. Because these heavy machines were used, so the bodies were
10 extremely damaged when taken from the primary graves and then transported
11 to the secondary graves. And also at the secondary graves, they were
12 dumped into the grave, and then again with heavy machine levelled back
13 and back-filled. So they were damaged, yeah, very damaged.
14 Q. And they were broken into pieces?
15 A. Yes. As we can see from all these data from -- forensic data and
17 re-associations in ICMP data.
18 Q. What I'd like to focus you on is the top part of this map. If we
19 could move -- maybe the part where it says "RS" to the bottom of the map,
20 as a beginning point, and then we can focus on the top half and then the
21 bottom half, so you can explain to the Trial Chamber what this
23 A. Yeah, this map represents -- I created and based -- and used the
24 base map number 8, what I have been testifying before. And then we
25 created the map in order to graphically represent where those primary and
1 all the secondary graves are. And the red dots -- the bigger red dots
2 represent the primary execution -- primary grave-sites. Then the black
3 dots represent the execution sites. Then we have the green dots, which
4 represent the secondary mass graves. And then we have some smaller red
5 dots, which also represent the graves. So here you can see the actual
6 position of all of the graves, except the individual ones are not on this
7 one. But all the others are here which are part of my report, so that
8 you have idea where those are in relation to the area.
9 So then we have certain arrows, and these arrows represent the
10 movement of the bodies. So based on the evidence I have been presenting
11 here today and we are referring to in our case, we are concluding to
12 which secondary graves bodies were taken from primary graves. And you
13 can see certain circles around the Cancari Road graves, the green ones,
14 so it is just to put them together, which are related to which, from
15 which primary grave to which secondary grave these bodies were taken.
16 So, for example, for the Kozluk site, we have number 1, 2, 3, 13,
17 and then number 7. All the others are related to Branjevo site.
18 Q. And is that similarly represented on the southern part of this
19 map, if we could go down and show that for a moment?
20 A. Yes, indeed, it is similar, and we can see the huge concentration
21 of the execution -- of primary graves in the Konjevic Polje area. Then
22 we have the Kravica warehouse execution point, and, of course, the arrows
23 which goes -- which goes down to secondary graves to represent the
24 movement of the bodies.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to tender this map
1 into evidence, please.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE:
4 Q. Now, Mr. Janc, I'd like to ask you --
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P212.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry.
7 Q. Mr. Janc, I'd like to ask you, in relation to the movement and
8 the relationship between the primary and secondary mass grave or graves
9 that you have examined in your report, have you had an opportunity to
10 review or examine some of the testimony of survivors in this case; in
11 particular, the Branjevo Farm survivor, the Petkovci Dam survivor, and
12 the Orahovac survivor?
13 A. Yes, indeed, I did; also their statements.
14 Q. And were you able to locate any of the individuals that they have
15 testified to as having been at these execution points in analysing the
17 A. Yes, indeed.
18 Q. Okay. And are those individuals represented in your report?
19 A. Yes, they are part of the confidential annex D.
20 Q. And how did you identify the individuals in your report?
21 A. Through -- I don't understand. How did I identify --
22 Q. Are they identified by case name; are they identified by name;
23 are they identified by ICMP ID number? That sort of thing.
24 A. No, they are identified by the name; first name, last name, and
25 the father's name.
1 Q. Now, you have mentioned that you considered certain forensic
2 evidence in terms of establishing what graves were associated with
3 Srebrenica. And I may have neglected to ask you about this, but in
4 respect of the Potocari graves, do you have any information concerning
5 the bodies that have been testified to or there is evidence of that
6 corroborate the account of DutchBat officers?
7 A. Yes. In Potocari, we have two graves which were exhumed in 2006
8 and 2007, and those individuals were found -- 11 of those individuals is
9 so far identified. So they are close to each other. Actually, one
10 individual is in both graves.
11 Q. All right. Now, let me ask you, in respect of your involvement
12 in determining the number of individuals associated with the Srebrenica
13 and Zepa events, and based on your review of the forensic and DNA data,
14 what do you reasonably expect in terms of the numbers you've established
15 now and what they might -- what they might be in the future?
16 A. I reasonably expect that the number will grow. So the total
17 number, which is now in relation to the Srebrenica and Zepa victims is
18 6556 individuals so far identified. And I'm sure this number will grow.
19 Since we don't have any identifications yet from the mass -- secondary
20 mass graves of Cancari 1 and Cancari 2 which have already been exhumed
21 and no individuals have yet been identified, and also since the work of
22 the BiH authorities is ongoing, I expect that this number will for sure
23 grow in the following years.
24 Q. And let me just ask you one other question in the 30 seconds I
25 have left.
1 In respect of your DNA
2 provided to you by the ICMP?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And for the most recent report that you have generated, about
5 when was that information received?
6 A. It was received in February this year.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, for the record, and I would like
8 to tender into evidence, it is 65 ter 6269, that is the ICMP information
9 showing the matches to Srebrenica events. If you'd like me to show the
10 witness part of it, I can do that as well, with your permission, since
11 I'm out of time.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is this chart with -- it's not under seal?
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would like for it to be under seal. It is all
14 the -- all of the actual data that was provided for Mr. Janc's
15 consideration, and it's essentially identical to the sample sheets that
16 we went through earlier in his testimony.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 And that concludes my direct examination. I appreciate your
21 THE REGISTRAR: 6269 will be Exhibit P213, under seal.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First of all, Mr. Janc, thank you for your
23 patience. We have to adjourn now, but this is not the end of your
24 examination. You will be recalled again for cross-examination by
25 Mr. Tolimir. He indicated earlier that this will last for three hours.
1 I'm not sure if that will be the right time, after the extensive
3 The Chamber has to thank you for your attendance, and you are now
4 free to go back to your normal activities. But bear in mind, please, no
5 contact with the parties about the content of your evidence. Thank you
6 very much again.
7 THE WITNESS: I understand. Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the Court Officer will show you out.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 I wanted to say that we will need at least six hours, at least,
13 in view of this long examination lasting over two days by the Prosecutor.
14 There are many things that are left unclear.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it would be appreciated if you or your
16 legal advisor would liaise with the Prosecution for the scheduling of the
17 cross-examination and re-examination. Thank you very much for that.
18 Before we adjourn, I would like to come back very shortly to the
19 question of the numbering of intercept documents we discussed yesterday
20 on page 1712 to 3 of the transcript of yesterday.
21 The Chamber is of the view that the best way to proceed is as
22 follows: The Registry will assign letters, suffixes, to different
23 versions of the same intercept. We have received the original
24 handwritten intercept as P162, and I think the best way to deal with
25 this, because we have different originals with attached different
1 translations, the best way to deal with this will be to have this already
2 exhibited document as P162A, with attached translation. And the other,
3 the transcript of this intercept, will then be P162B, with the attached
4 relevant translation. This ruling refers only to intercept documents,
5 because there are different originals, and so that they can be
7 Will the Registrar indicate that this will be received in that
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 03142A is now Exhibit P162A. 65 ter
11 03142C is now Exhibit P162B. 65 ter 03142E is now Exhibit P162C. 65 ter
12 03142F is now Exhibit P162D.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
14 I think there are no other procedural matters. I thank both
15 parties for their very effective work, especially Mr. Vanderpuye. You
16 see we are already on page 91. This is quite unusual. You made a good
18 We adjourn, and we resume next Monday.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.
20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of May,
21 2010, at 2.15 p.m.