100531ED

Page 2202

1 shot down; one after repeatedly calling out someone's name and the other

2 after pleading for water.

3 At a certain point the witness heard commands being given to:

4 "Park the loader, wash the asphalt, cover the dead with hay." The

5 soldiers came into the warehouse and threw hay all over the dead

6 prisoners and the witness who lay among them. The witness later saw this

7 loader parked in front of the warehouse when he escaped.

8 Sometime after midnight, that is, the early morning of 15 July,

9 the witness pulled himself from under the dead bodies. He encountered

10 two other survivors, the first of whom he asked to join in trying to

11 escape. The witness was refused and instead managed to leave the

12 warehouse with the second prisoner undetected. As he fled the witness

13 was spotted by soldiers who called for him to show himself. However, the

14 witness managed to elude capture and made it to a nearby river. From

15 there, together with the second survivor, the witness escaped through a

16 cornfield into the woods.

17 That concludes my summary, Mr. President, and I have a few

18 questions further to put to the witness and some documents -- some

19 exhibits to show him.

20 If I could please have in e-court 65 ter 999.

21 Q. Witness, do you recognise what's on the screen in front of you?

22 A. I recognise the warehouse well. I don't recognise it as looking

23 exactly in 1991 or 1992, but I know what it looked like in 1995 when I

24 got there. Now, how it looked like in 1996 and 1997, I don't know that

25 either because I don't know what changes they had made. Because various

Page 2203

1 people photographed it at various times. I don't know what it looked

2 like from the other side. I know what it looked like from the side of

3 the asphalt road by which I came. I passed through the buses -- between

4 the buses and the warehouse. I passed the first entrance door and got

5 into the second entrance door. Two Serb soldiers were standing at the

6 door. I got in and one of my acquaintances motioned me to sit down next

7 to him.

8 Q. Are you able to see the entrance door that you went in through in

9 this picture?

10 A. Here you see the first door. This could be the second door, but

11 that was not the end of the building. There was more of this warehouse

12 building. This big door is not the one I got inside through. All I know

13 is that I passed one door before I got into the next. This doesn't look

14 exactly like the door I got into, but from which side this picture was

15 taken I don't know.

16 Q. Okay. Let me show you 65 ter 1003 and then we'll come back to

17 this one in a moment.

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. If we could blow up more or less the

19 middle of the screen, just make it a little bit larger so he can see it

20 better. Okay.

21 Q. Are you able to -- are you able to recognise the door that you

22 came in through in this photograph?

23 A. This must be the second door. Now, what is this marked with

24 black? From this door on there are more warehouses. This is the first

25 door.

Page 2204

1 Q. All right. I'd like you to mark this photograph, if you could,

2 if we can have that done.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Court Officer will help you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first door, then this

5 must be the second one. I got in through the second door. But it

6 doesn't appear as it does when you look at it from the asphalt road. It

7 depends from which side this picture was taken. I don't know that. All

8 I know is I passed one door before I got in through the next. The

9 warehouse was packed. I had nowhere to sit down. I had to go into a

10 corner to sit down. There was no room close to the asphalt door. I went

11 to the other end. This could be the first and this could be the second

12 entrance door.

13 MR. VANDERPUYE:

14 Q. Could you mark the door that you think it might be.

15 A. Well, how is this picture taken? Was it taken from the asphalt

16 road or from the side? Then this must be the second entrance door. I

17 can mark it. There's something like a black blob here. I don't know

18 what it is. All I know is I passed one door and got in through the next.

19 Now, is it really that one? It doesn't look on the picture as I -- as it

20 looked when I went to Srebrenica to put in my application for return.

21 Now, from which side this picture was taken and how -- I mean, everyone

22 can see what these doors looked like. It's a fact.

23 Q. Can you just put a circle around the door that you think it might

24 be. That way we can see what you're pointing at, because nobody can see

25 what you're pointing at right now.

Page 2205

1 A. If this is one door, then this is the second door. I don't see

2 any more doors. This must be the door, but it doesn't look as it looked

3 when I came there.

4 Q. Are you able to mark it or do you need some time to look at it?

5 I can show you another exhibit if that will help you remember.

6 A. Let's see that other exhibit. Well, we shouldn't be wasting time

7 on this. Everyone can go there and see what it looks like, this

8 warehouse. I know what it looked like when I came there.

9 Q. All right. Let me show you 65 ter 1720. Now, this is a document

10 that you marked some time ago, and I just want to show it to you to see

11 if that helps refresh your recollection.

12 A. From the side of the asphalt road, the building runs parallel to

13 it, whereas here we have some corners.

14 Q. Let me ask you some questions about ...

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]

16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. If we can just blow it up on the right

17 side where you can see the markings.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There you have the first entrance

19 door. This is the first entrance door and this is the second.

20 MR. VANDERPUYE:

21 Q. Which is the second? Can you describe what you see?

22 A. This one here. I can see the first and the second doors. There

23 they are.

24 Q. Is the second door to the left or to the right in this

25 photograph?

Page 2206

1 A. Both doors face the asphalt road.

2 Q. Yes, Mr. Witness. Is the first door to the right of the picture

3 or to the left of the picture?

4 A. As we reached the building from Lolici, we were on the left-hand

5 side to the road, because to the right flows the river. If we were to

6 head towards Lolici, then it would be to the right of the asphalt road

7 and to the left of the river.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, perhaps it will help everybody if you

9 can make --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I reached the building, the

11 warehouse was to my right, so I passed by the first door and then got in

12 through the second door, and I was between the warehouse and the

13 parking-lot where the buses stood.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, I understand very well. But could you

15 please for our help put a cross at the first door you were pointing at,

16 just a cross at the first door. Which was it? The door you passed by

17 and headed to the second door, which was the first one?

18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

20 And then perhaps you can put a circle above the second door where

21 you entered the building.

22 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. I think that is now

24 understandable for everybody.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. President.

Page 2207

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would like actually to --

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you like to --

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: -- tender this document, and then I would like

5 to go back to the other ones and tender those as well because I think

6 it's apparent from those other photos what he's marked.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This marked photo will be received.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P266, Your Honours.

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think the first document I showed the witness

10 was 65 ter 999, and I would like to tender that document as well.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P267.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a request to make so that we

15 do not torment the witness. We can do it this way this once. However,

16 in the future, I think we should refrain from showing witnesses

17 photographs that had already been marked.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sometimes it's helpful to put a photo with

19 markings to a witness, or a map. In this case I think it was an

20 appropriate way to find out which door was the substance of the evidence.

21 Thank you.

22 Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 I think I had -- was about to refer to or had referred to

25 65 ter 1003. That was the second photograph I think I showed the

Page 2208

1 witness, and I would like to tender that witness [sic] --

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That is already an exhibit, P262.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE: P262.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was part of the four documents.

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. What I'd like to do is I'd like to have

6 it back on the screen. I'd like to show the witness and ask him some

7 questions about that for a moment.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are waiting for P262.

10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There are some technical problems, as I'm told,

12 but it comes up now.

13 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If we could just focus a little bit

14 on the right side of the photograph and blow that -- the left side, I'm

15 sorry, of the photograph and blow that up a little bit. Okay.

16 Q. Witness, what I wanted to do was draw your attention to the

17 bottom of this photograph. Do you see what appears to be a fence at the

18 bottom of this photograph?

19 A. Yes, I can see it here. At the time I did not see a fence,

20 however. Perhaps fences and walls were added afterwards, but when I got

21 there I didn't see a fence. I know what the warehouse looked like when I

22 got there. I don't know what it looked like later. I know what my house

23 looked like before I left and what it looked like when I got back.

24 Q. All right. I just wanted to clarify whether or not there was a

25 fence when you arrived there in July of 1995.

Page 2209

1 A. I didn't see it.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. Now, in a previous statement you

3 mentioned that inside the warehouse there was a small room. Do you

4 remember speaking about that back in 1996?

5 A. I remember. On the night of Thursday, they were beating us

6 inside. I thought I heard water running. I stood up and I had this

7 vision of some sort of a room, but a neighbour of mine stopped me from

8 going away. He told me, "Sit down, there is no water here." I don't

9 know what happened to me. Was I so frightened or deranged that I thought

10 I heard water running, though I never saw any water in the warehouse.

11 Q. What I'd like to do -- well, there's two things. In your answer

12 it's translated that you said: "On the night of Thursday, they were

13 beating us ..." I just want to make sure that's an accurate translation

14 of what you said. Were you being beaten on the night of the 13th?

15 A. They started beating us on Thursday between 4.00 and 5.00 in the

16 afternoon and continued until the night fell. Shots were heard. The

17 wounded who could help others did. We could hear them outside the

18 warehouse laughing throughout the night. In the morning, as it dawned, I

19 don't know what time of day it was, they called to us and said, "If

20 there's anyone alive, come out." Some of them -- some of them came out,

21 I don't know how many. I didn't look up to see. I heard a truck engine

22 start. I don't know where it went. Silence fell in the warehouse then.

23 At some point during the day, a voice could be heard shouting, "Salko."

24 Some 15 to 20 times this individual was calling out to Salko.

25 Q. I just want to know when you say "beating," you mean shooting or

Page 2210

1 you mean beating without -- without weapons?

2 A. Shooting. They were shooting.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. From automatic weapons, machine-guns, with hand-grenades,

5 rifle-launch grenades. When this person called out to Salko, we could

6 hear his Turkish mother being sworn at and a shot fired. Then silence

7 fell again. Then a voice could be heard shouting, "Adila, water, Adila,

8 water." Again oaths could be heard swearing his Turkish mother and shots

9 followed.

10 Q. Witness --

11 A. Those who were only wounded and got out to get on the truck, they

12 were killed in front of the warehouse.

13 Q. -- I want to focus you, if I could, just for a moment on this

14 small room. And I'd like to show you a photograph. It's 65 ter 1450 and

15 it's page 105. Just a moment.

16 A. You can show it to me.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's -- the exhibit number, I'm sorry, is P94,

18 and it will be page 105 of that.

19 Q. I just want to show you this photograph for a moment.

20 A. I don't recall this photograph at all.

21 Q. All right. What I want to ask you about - if we can just zoom

22 out a little bit, that's it - is if you can see on the left side of the

23 photograph there's an apparent entry. And in the photograph you can see

24 what appears to be the outline of a wall. Do you see that?

25 A. Yes, but I can't remember the photograph.

Page 2211

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. Is it outside?

3 Q. This is the inside of the warehouse and what you see there on the

4 left side is a doorway leading outside.

5 A. This wall -- I don't know the photograph at all.

6 Q. What I want to ask you is: The outline of this wall in relation

7 to the door, is that -- does that approximate the position of the small

8 room that you saw while you were in the warehouse relative to the door?

9 A. I don't remember the photograph at all.

10 Q. Was the room that you saw in the warehouse near the door?

11 A. I don't recall seeing it.

12 Q. I'm not asking about the photograph anymore. I just want to

13 know: Was the room that you saw inside the warehouse near the doorway?

14 A. I mentioned this room where I thought I heard water running, but

15 I never reached the water or this reception room I thought I saw because

16 the person next to me pulled me down and said that I should stay on the

17 ground.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, it would be perhaps helpful to

19 remove this photo from the screen because there is some confusion, and

20 the witness clearly indicated that he doesn't remember and recognise this

21 photo.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's fine.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's better not to have it on the screen --

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- and then you may continue with your

Page 2212

1 questioning.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Witness, do you remember having mentioned this small room to an

4 OTP investigator in 1996?

5 A. I remember mentioning this room and saying that I thought I heard

6 water running in that room when I was in the warehouse. I was close by

7 this room and I got up to reach it but was pulled back by the person who

8 was lying next to me who said, "There's no water around here." So I do

9 remember clearly thinking that I heard water. Was I so thirsty that I

10 conjured it up? I didn't see it.

11 Q. Do you remember telling the investigator that the room was on the

12 left side of the entrance to the warehouse?

13 A. I had this idea that it was to the left, to my left, but I never

14 reached it. It was night-time.

15 Q. All right. Thank you for that.

16 A. And in the course of the day I didn't move a finger. I stayed

17 put where I was. I don't know what happened. I know that throughout the

18 night when they were shooting at us they were outside the warehouse, and

19 then in the morning, they called out to the wounded to come out, that

20 they would board a bus. And then they shot them all, including the

21 person who called to Salko and the other one who was asking for water.

22 And then for the following 24 hours, not a soul could be heard in the

23 warehouse.

24 Q. Okay. Well, thank you very much, Witness. I don't have any

25 further questions for you.

Page 2213

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: That concludes my direct examination,

2 Mr. President. Thanks again.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Vanderpuye.

4 Sir, now the accused, Mr. Tolimir, has the right to put questions

5 to you.

6 And now, Mr. Tolimir, start your cross-examination.

7 But again, sir, if you need a break, just tell us.

8 Mr. Tolimir.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Greetings to all those present in the courtroom. Peace unto all

11 of them and unto this house and may this trial reflect God's will.

12 Greetings to the witness as well.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Let us clarify several points rather than go

15 through the entire statement. In the second sentence of the summary,

16 Prosecutor Vanderpuye said that the witness was captured and was with

17 1.200 Muslims who were killed in Kravica. Since I don't want to take you

18 through the entire statement and -- and you gave your statement in 2000.

19 So can you tell me what is the difference between what Mr. Vanderpuye

20 read out and what you said in your statement. Is there a difference? I

21 just want to know because I don't want your statement to have its value

22 detracted simply because one piece of information does not correspond.

23 A. I don't understand at all what you've just said.

24 Q. I'm asking you how many people were shot with you in this

25 warehouse that you didn't recognise here?

Page 2214

1 A. As I said, I didn't count them. I never tried to count them. I

2 know that we were seated in Lolici and that those who were in front of me

3 were saying that there were around 2.000 people there. All of them were

4 forced to the warehouse and none came out alive.

5 Q. Thank you. I've understood what you've said. In other words,

6 based on the assessment of those you spoke to, you drew your conclusion

7 as to how many there were?

8 A. Yes. I can't tell you whether there were a thousand more or

9 less. I heard their estimate that there were around 2.000 people there.

10 I don't want to go into whether this was correct or not. I only know

11 that all of those who were with me in the column, none survived.

12 Q. Thank you. I'm happy with your answer. I merely wanted to

13 clarify this at the outset.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 1D85. This is the

15 statement given by the witness to the Ministry of the Interior, the State

16 Security Service of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Thank you.

17 [Microphone not activated]

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I gave you a moment now to look at the statement that you gave.

21 When did you find out that you were supposed to go to the village of

22 Jaglici? Thank you.

23 A. Are you asking me?

24 Q. Yes. I'm asking you when did you find out, what was the date,

25 and if you can also tell me who it was you found it out from?

Page 2215

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment, please. It should not be broadcast

2 out of the courtroom.

3 So the accused asked you the following question: When did you

4 find out, what was the date, and if you can also tell him who was you

5 found it out from.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean that we were supposed to

7 leave Srebrenica and our home? It was on the 11th of July that I learned

8 this. I was on my estate gathering hay, and my daughter came to see me

9 and said, "What are you doing? People are leaving. Srebrenica has

10 fallen." I went home. I let the cattle out of the barn, and I met my

11 brother-in-law, whose house had been burnt in 1991, early on, and had

12 spent all this time in exile at my home. He asked me, "Where are you

13 going?" And I said, "I want to release the cattle." He said that he had

14 already done so. So I took a rucksack, collected some clothes and food,

15 as much as could fit the rucksack. And on the 11th of July I left my

16 home. It was in the early evening hours. It may have been 7.00 or 8.00.

17 They told us women, children, and the elderly were supposed to go

18 to the UN camp in Potocari, whereas those who were able-bodied were

19 supposed to toward Tuzla and the assembly point would be in Jaglici. I

20 said good-bye to my wife and the two daughters above Ravne Njive. They

21 set out towards Potocari and I set out towards Jaglici. I spent the

22 night there. In the morning --

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, may I interrupt you. Excuse me. The

24 answer -- the question of the accused was answered, I think, so that

25 Mr. Tolimir has perhaps another question for you.

Page 2216

1 Mr. Tolimir.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Can we call up 1D87 in e-court, page 2. Let's look at page 1

4 first.

5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

6 Q. This is the statement given to the ICTY. It's your statement.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And let's turn to page 2, line 8.

8 Thank you.

9 [Microphone not activated]

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12 Q. We will skip the first and second paragraphs and go to the eighth

13 line.

14 "A day or two before the fall of Srebrenica, I heard a rumour

15 that the enclave was about to fall. Our commander," and I will not read

16 his name, "informed us that we would have to break the corridor to

17 proceed towards Tuzla. The women, children, elderly, and the sick or

18 injured had to go to Potocari.

19 "My daughters and my wife went to Potocari the 11th of July."

20 Did I correctly quote your statement? Thank you.

21 A. Yes, but it's not true that I learnt two days earlier. I learned

22 on the 11th of July that Srebrenica had fallen. I was at my family farm.

23 I learned that the women, children, and the elderly should go to Potocari

24 and we should go to Tuzla. I would have gone to Potocari too, but my

25 rucksack and my food-supply had already been shipped out on horseback of

Page 2217

1 a friend, so I had to follow. I would have liked to go to Potocari too.

2 Q. Yes, but you say you found out on the 11th, but you also say:

3 "Our commander ... informed us that we would have to break the

4 corridor to proceed towards Tuzla."

5 Who is the commander, because his name is redacted, who told you

6 you needed to open up a corridor?

7 A. When we got to Jaglici, I don't know how many people had gathered

8 there already. It was an enumerable mass and they said, "Let's go to

9 Tuzla to break through, and then who passes, passes, and those who don't,

10 tough luck."

11 There were six -- Srebrenica was a protected area, but it had

12 better not had been because we would have fought and we would have fought

13 with tooth and nail to defend ourselves. But instead, we had relaxed

14 because we had been living in a protected area. Well, didn't they go

15 Srebrenica, Zepa, Zvornik, and other areas to be evacuated? How many

16 poor people remained fatherless? How many children don't know what they

17 fathers looked like?

18 Q. Please, for the record, tell us, who told you to break-through

19 towards Tuzla?

20 A. Zulfo Tursunovic told us to go into a break-through, to move

21 forward.

22 Q. What was Zulfo Tursunovic?

23 A. Commander, our commander.

24 Q. You mean of some kind of brigade of yours?

25 A. Well, of course. It certainly wasn't me.

Page 2218

1 Q. Can we go back to 1D --

2 A. Can we have a break now?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness wants a

4 break.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. Then in that case we should have a break

6 now and I think that should be the first break, a little bit earlier than

7 usual, and we resume quarter to 4.00.

8 The Court Officer will assist you during the break.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.17 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 3.49 p.m.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, I hope very much that you are now in a

12 better condition. I would like to remind you to tell us immediately if

13 there is another break needed for you.

14 Mr. Tolimir is continuing his questioning for you.

15 Mr. Tolimir.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17 May the witness be shown 1D87 in e-court, page 2, lines 21

18 through 25. And when the witness has read it I'll ask my question.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Court Officer told the relevant persons not to

20 broadcast it.

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Microphone not activated]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, in the third paragraph from the top you say:

25 "In Jaglici," that's line 21, "we arrived in Jaglici around

Page 2219

1 2200 hours."

2 A. I don't know what time it was when we arrived. It was night, but

3 I can't say whether it was 8.00 p.m. or 10.00 p.m. I know when we set

4 out from -- to Jaglici.

5 Q. I'm reading your statement. These are your words. You gave that

6 statement to the investigator. You said:

7 "We arrived at Jaglici around 2200 hours."

8 A. I don't remember. I know we arrived after nightfall, but I can't

9 tell you at what time. I know we set out to Jaglici on the 12th.

10 Q. I will just quote a passage and then I'll ask you a question, and

11 then you can answer whatever you like. Now, please wait for me to give

12 you the quotation. In line 21, I quote:

13 "We arrived at Jaglici at night around 2200 hours. People were

14 forming a column and started to move towards the woods.

15 "The first groups were supposed to clean the mines so we had to

16 wait. The soldiers were mixed with the civilians but the civilians were

17 concentrated in the middle of the column."

18 And my question is: Did you say this to the investigators of the

19 OTP?

20 A. I did give the statement, but I didn't have a watch then and I

21 don't know what time we arrived at Jaglici. I know what time we set out

22 from Jaglici because I knew a forester whom I knew. I ask him, "What

23 time is it?" He said, "It's 20 to 1.00."

24 Q. Thank you. It's not important. Just tell me, did you say this

25 to the investigators?

Page 2220

1 A. I did say this, but I didn't say the time when we arrived at

2 Jaglici. I said to them at what time we set out from Jaglici.

3 Q. Now, can you tell us something about the forming of this column

4 you mentioned in this sentence I just quoted. We started moving towards

5 the woods. The first groups were supposed to clean mines. Soldiers were

6 mixed with civilians. The civilians were in the middle.

7 Can you tell us more about how this column was formed.

8 I said can you tell us how this column was formed?

9 A. I know I set out from Jaglici in a column of people. It was not

10 all of 6 metres wide. We went three or four abreast up to a place called

11 Buljim. I didn't know that place. We went downhill to a macadam road.

12 On that road the column was already moving and there was a valley ahead

13 with people standing there. I don't know what they were waiting for.

14 When we got down to the road there was a man, perhaps he was the last man

15 from Jaglici with that group, and he was getting down to the macadam

16 road.

17 Q. Can I ask you a question and then you can go on? Please. Tell

18 me, since you were a soldier --

19 A. I was not a soldier. I was in civilian clothes. I had my

20 hunting rifle up to Jaglici, and at Jaglici my brother-in-law took it.

21 Q. But you were of the right age to be a military conscript because

22 it says here you were working in a depot.

23 A. What depot?

24 Q. Then I'll have to quote all of these statements where you said

25 you worked in the rear, in the logistics.

Page 2221

1 A. I was a member, but I was in the civilian protection. And when I

2 moved to Tuzla, I was at Stupari in the logistics. I chopped wood, I

3 brought food and water until 1996. In 1996, I was demobed.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show 1D87, page 2.

6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. It's the sentence below the first paragraph. It's a simple

8 sentence. You said:

9 "I joined the army on the 17th of April, 1992."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When were you demobilised?

12 A. In 1996. I said that.

13 Q. May I note for the record that from 1992 until 1996 you were a

14 member of the army?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us how you formed that column, how come civilians

17 and -- came and then soldiers came? Did somebody give you orders and

18 commands?

19 A. We were moving like cattle. Nobody was paying attention to

20 anyone up to that place, Buljim. And then we ran into an ambush, and

21 then people dispersed. Nobody took -- paid any attention to anyone else.

22 Q. All right.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness 1D85,

24 line 8, page 1 -- sorry, page 2. In fact, that's the first page of the

25 statement. Line 8 in 1D85.

Page 2222

1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You see the first paragraph on 11 July, then the second paragraph

3 starts with on 12 July, and then further down it says around --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused give us an exact reference.

5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

6 Q. It says:

7 "Until about 1200 hours the column was lining up and forming ..."

8 A. Yes, we would line up and then disperse and then line up again.

9 What exactly was going on, I don't know. They would line us up, but we

10 are not moving anywhere. We dispersed again and then finally we set out

11 towards Buljim.

12 Q. Before you moved to Buljim, tell us how long this lining up took

13 because you said you arrived around 2200 hours. Did it last until

14 midnight?

15 A. I did not say at what time we arrived at Jaglici. I didn't have

16 a watch. I didn't even know -- I mean, I wouldn't even have known when

17 we set out from Jaglici if I hadn't asked that forester for the time.

18 And he said 20 to 1.00, 20 to 1.00 in the afternoon.

19 Q. And when did you arrive at Jaglici?

20 A. It was after nightfall. I don't know when.

21 Q. Is it true what you said in the statement, that you arrived at

22 2200 hours?

23 A. When did I say it was 10.00 p.m., when? I know when -- I know

24 that we arrived at Jaglici after nightfall, but I never said to anyone at

25 what time.

Page 2223

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show 1D87, page 2.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, may I remind you not to overlap and

3 wait for the end of the translation. You can always see it on the

4 screen. It's very difficult for the recorder and the interpreters.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I asked

6 for 1D87, page 2, in the Serbian language to be shown, line 21. We just

7 had it on the screen a moment ago. And it's the same page number in

8 English. I will quote the sentence first.

9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10 Q. This is your statement. It says "Witness Statement" at the top.

11 And in line 21:

12 "We arrived at Jaglici at night around 2200 hours. People were

13 forming a column."

14 I'm not making this up. I'm just reading your statement and that

15 statement was given to the ICTY, this Tribunal here.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you have quoted this portion already

17 earlier, and the witness gave you an answer. It's not necessary to

18 repeat it. Please carry on.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

20 insisted, but the witness said that he never said it.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say at what time we

22 arrived at night at Jaglici.

23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24 Q. This is your statement.

25 A. You can write what you like. I know what I said. I know what

Page 2224

1 time I set out from Jaglici, but at what time I came, I don't know that.

2 Q. Thank you. This is your statement. I didn't make anything up.

3 A. I didn't make anything up either, sir.

4 Q. Witness, how long did it take to form this column, because you

5 don't remember when you arrived and you remember when you set out at a

6 quarter to 1.00.

7 A. We arrived at 20 to 1.00.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. Stop thanking me. You're asking me questions here. Whatever I

10 said, I stand by it.

11 Q. Thank you. I'm sorry that I keep saying "thank you," but I

12 always have to say "thank you" at the end of a question.

13 A. You don't need to.

14 Q. Never mind. Tell me how long did this column take to form,

15 because you know you set out at 20 to 1.00.

16 A. I wasn't at the head of the column or at the end of the column,

17 at the tail, I was somewhere in the middle. In that column, we went to

18 Buljim, and there was a delay when we arrived up to that point because

19 there was a crowd of people there. I don't know what they were waiting

20 for. We were standing on the macadam road outside Buljim, and then a man

21 came out and said, "What are we waiting for?" And somebody answered, "We

22 lost track of the column." The other man said, cursing everyone's mother

23 and children, saying, "Now I'll show you the track of the column." I

24 don't know who that man was. I asked my fellow standing next to me, "Who

25 is this?" And the man answered, "Golic." And that's when I saw this

Page 2225

1 Golic for the first and last time.

2 On the left side of the hill somebody started cursing, "What are

3 we waiting for?" And then shooting started. People immediately

4 dispersed. Nobody's looking at anyone else, nobody's looking for mines.

5 I ran down with my fellow down to a river. There were people lying dead

6 or wounded. Nobody was looking at them, paying the least attention.

7 Q. Can I just ask you a question relating to what you just said.

8 You just mentioned Golic. Do you mean Ejub Golic, commander of the

9 brigade?

10 A. I never heard of any other Golic and I didn't know that man until

11 then, until that other person told me, "This is Ejub Golic."

12 Q. Did Golic address you? Did he say anything to you?

13 A. No, he just addressed the person who told him that they had lost

14 track of the column, and that's all before the shooting started.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we are still waiting for the

16 translation of the answer. Please pause before you put the next

17 question. You are always overlapping. It is not appropriate behaviour.

18 Please pause. Now continue.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm trying to make a

20 pause to mark the end of my question, but the witness doesn't want me to

21 say thank you, he doesn't want to wait either, so please make the same

22 request to him and everything will be all right.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, it is not a question of the words

24 "thank you," but look at the screen. You see on the transcript when the

25 recording stopped. And then put the next question and not earlier. This

Page 2226

1 is very simple. It is very simple. Please do that.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, but I can't follow the

3 transcript because all the three screens in front of me are adjusted to

4 the documents. Not one of them is adjusted to show the transcript. I

5 tried to handle it myself. It's either the transcript or the documents.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you could press the button "LiveNote," you

7 will have the transcript.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but I'm currently dealing with

9 the document.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you have now the transcript in front of you?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. No, Mr. President. I can have

12 either the transcript or the documents. I can't have both. The Legal

13 Officer has just tried to help.

14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. -- I understand your difficulties,

16 Mr. Tolimir, but there is a way to solve this problem. If you just pause

17 a little bit more, you will perhaps realise that we are still receiving

18 the translation and then pause a little bit and not immediately put the

19 next question. Then I think everything will be fine. Please carry on

20 with your question.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Can you tell me, please, how much time do I have left, since time

23 has so far been spent in a manner that wasn't rational?

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think -- I didn't count it. You indicated two

25 and a half or three hours for the whole cross-examination. I think that

Page 2227

1 will be sufficient for you. Please continue.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, a moment ago you mentioned Zulfo Tursunovic and said

5 that he was your commander. Was he Naser Oric's deputy or not, can you

6 tell the Chamber? Thank you.

7 A. Well, I wasn't. I suppose he was.

8 Q. Thank you. And what was Ramiz Becirovic, can you tell the

9 Trial Chamber?

10 A. I can't tell you what role Ramiz Becirovic had. At any rate, he

11 was in Srebrenica. I don't know who he was. Was he in the staff or in

12 the command? I don't know. I wasn't interested.

13 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us who lined up the column? Was it

14 Zulfo Tursunovic? Was it Ramiz or another person?

15 A. I didn't see either Ramiz or Zulfo there.

16 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, do you know at all where the HQ of

17 the BH army in Srebrenica was before you left it?

18 A. Where the headquarters was?

19 Q. Yes, the headquarters of the 21st Division in Srebrenica.

20 A. Well, nowhere. Wherever somebody happened to be, that's where it

21 was. There were six municipalities there and nobody knew what was going

22 on. It was a protected enclave and the people let their guard down.

23 Q. Can you tell us where the command of the 28th Division was and

24 were you ever in the command?

25 A. I was never there. I didn't know exactly where the seat of the

Page 2230

1 At page 7138, lines 12 through 19 of the transcript in the

2 Popovic case, in answer to a question put by one of the Defence counsel,

3 and I'll quote the question:

4 "Is it fair to say that on the 11th of July, 1995, you received

5 information via courier that Srebrenica had fallen and that women,

6 children, and the elderly should go to Potocari and the others should

7 take to the woods?"

8 And you said, I'm quoting your answer:

9 "Yes, I think that I said that."

10 Question from the Defence counsel:

11 "You received this information from your commander,

12 Zulfo Tursunovic, who told you that you should open a corridor to Tuzla?"

13 Your answer to that was:

14 "Yes."

15 Did I accurately quote the exchange between you and one of the

16 Defence counsel in the Popovic case?

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you understand the question of Mr. Tolimir?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please answer the question.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood what he said.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And he wanted to know if he quoted your testimony

22 in the Popovic case correctly. Can you answer this question.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am supposed to answer?

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. Mr. Tolimir wanted to know from you if he

25 quoted your evidence, your testimony in the Popovic case correctly.

Page 2231

1 Could you answer that, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that I said

3 everything clearly.

4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us when and where did the courier let

6 you know that you should leave your village and set out to Tuzla?

7 A. I think that I said that I was on my farm hay-making when my

8 daughter came and said that people were leaving. I think that I've

9 repeated this countless times.

10 Q. Thank you. In the Popovic case you said that you received the

11 information from your commander, Zulfo Tursunovic, and that he told

12 you --

13 A. He sent a courier. I said that I was on my farm and my daughter

14 came and informed me that we should leave.

15 Q. Thank you. I understand what you're saying. Is the following

16 correct. Your daughter conveyed to you the order sent by Tursu through a

17 courier?

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is this understanding of Mr. Tolimir correct?

19 Are you able to answer, sir, or is it very difficult?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. Mr. Tolimir wanted to know if he understood

22 you correctly that your daughter conveyed the order of Mr. Tursunovic to

23 form a column was conveyed to you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through a courier. Not that a

25 column should be formed from the village, but that we should set out

Page 2232

1 towards Potocari and toward Jaglici. Please don't put one and the same

2 question to me five times. I said quite clearly that we set out,

3 including women, children, and the elderly, all the way through to

4 Ravne Njive. From Ravne Njive, women, children, and the elderly set out

5 to Potocari, and we set out to the woods. I think that that's the long

6 and the short of it.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. That helps Mr. Tolimir, I

8 think.

9 You should move to another topic, Mr. Tolimir.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You've mentioned Ravne Njive as the place where women and

13 children went their way to Potocari, including your daughter. Can you

14 tell us who did the separating and who told you to do so?

15 A. We received the order as soon as we set out from the village that

16 the elderly, women, and children should go to Potocari and that the rest

17 should go to Jaglici, where we would assemble. I think that I've

18 explained it quite clearly.

19 Q. But this was the first time you mentioned Ravne Njive?

20 A. No, I don't know how many times I've mentioned it as the place

21 where we separated.

22 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us something about the 28th Mountain

23 Battalion in Srebrenica commanded by Ejub Golic and where it was in the

24 column?

25 A. I said where I saw Ejub Golic for the first and last time, and I

Page 2233

1 said it quite clearly.

2 Q. Thank you. In the Popovic case at page 7133 of the transcript,

3 lines 3 to 4, you said, and I quote:

4 "As far as I was able to see, his group was the last to leave

5 Jaglici, I believe."

6 You were referring to Ejub Golic. Did Captain Ejub Golic with

7 the 28th Mountain Battalion form part of the column? Was he at the front

8 or at the rear end of the column?

9 A. Well, I can't tell you that because I didn't know Ejub and I said

10 so quite clearly. When he came to Buljim with a group of people, I don't

11 think anybody else was left behind at Jaglici, and then I explained what

12 happened afterwards. And that's the last time I'm going to talk about

13 it.

14 Q. Thank you, sir.

15 A. Thank you, too.

16 Q. In the Popovic case at 7109 page of the transcript, lines 19

17 through 25, and page 7110, lines 1 to 2, you said, and I quote:

18 "It was a long column. Ejub was the next person to arrive and I

19 think that he was the next to set out from Jaglici. As for Buljim, I

20 don't know if they stopped there. I continued roaming [as interpreted]

21 that day. When Ejub arrived he said, 'What are you waiting for?' We

22 told him that we lost track of the column. And he said, 'What are you

23 waiting for here?' And then he cursed our mothers. All at once shooting

24 started from the left and the right. People dispersed without paying

25 attention to one another, without paying attention to either the wounded

Page 2234

1 or the dead. Everybody tried to save their necks."

2 And I was quoting your words from the Popovic case. This is my

3 question: Why did Ejub Golic curse? Can you explain this to us?

4 A. Well, I suppose because we lost track of the column. We weren't

5 proceeding on our way.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. There is -- there was no other reason.

8 Q. Can we now look at transcript page 7114, lines 10 through 12.

9 Your testimony is recorded there which needs clarifying because it may

10 have been misinterpreted. You'll tell us that and I'll quote what you

11 said.

12 "As far as I know, we were the only ones in civilian uniform who

13 had formed the column."

14 A. I wasn't the only one. There was several of us in civilian

15 uniform rather than military uniform. There were more of us in civilian

16 rather than military uniforms.

17 Q. Thank you. You've said that there were more of you in civilian

18 clothes rather than uniforms. Does this mean that soldiers were also

19 dressed in civilian clothes?

20 A. Well, those who had them put them on; those who didn't, didn't

21 put them on. That's the short of it. Not everyone had them on.

22 Q. Thank you. On the issue of ambushes, in your statements you

23 mentioned two ambushes. At transcript page 7133, lines 9 through 11, in

24 the Popovic case, you said that:

25 "The first ambush took place close to the place called Buljim,

Page 2235

1 where I saw Golic. That was where the people dispersed. The second

2 ambush took place when we reached the river."

3 This is my question --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Can the accused switch his microphone on.

5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Do you recall where the first ambush took place and do you recall

7 what the landscape was like there?

8 A. Well, I told you that it was below Buljim, just outside Buljim.

9 There was a macadam road at the foot of the hill there, and that's where

10 the first ambush took place. The second ambush took place in the evening

11 hours above Kamenica. We were going downstream along the river. There

12 were a group of five or six persons. We stopped there as shooting

13 started from one of the hills. Fire was opened from a Praga. We set out

14 toward the place where we heard the shooting from and shouts. We were

15 maybe some 300 metres away from the place where shooting could be heard

16 as well as shouts.

17 We could not pass through there, so we returned. We heard

18 bullets whizzing past our heads. I came across a tree and hid behind it.

19 I could be hit only from the air and not from the side because I was

20 sheltered behind the tree. I thought that the others were around me as

21 well. I stood up and there were occasional bursts of fire to be heard,

22 and I realised that none of those who were there with me previously were

23 there any longer. I lost my cap. I didn't know how it happened. I

24 started walking toward the place where the shooting could be heard.

25 I had passed some 100 to 200 metres before I shouted, "Don't

Page 2236

1 shoot. I'm one of yours." I don't know who was on the other side, but

2 they were waiting for me to come. I -- as I came closer, I saw that

3 there was a young man. He said, "Old man, I see that you have something

4 in your rucksack. I'm hungry." I told him that I had some bread and

5 meat. He had something to eat and then we left the place. As we were

6 walking, we realised we were treading on dead bodies, and I recognised

7 one of those to be my neighbour. And I asked the young man who was with

8 me to give me a match or a lighter so that I could make some light to see

9 if this was indeed my neighbour, but the young man left. I no longer saw

10 him.

11 Then I heard shouts from a group down near the brook, shouting,

12 "Help." When it dawned, we were collecting wounded down there. We

13 realised that we were close to Kamenica, that's what they said. And I

14 saw that they were lining up there but I went past them to their right --

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, you gave a lengthy answer to the question of

16 the accused that was very helpful, but I think Mr. Tolimir has the right

17 to put another question to you.

18 Mr. Tolimir.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, I didn't want to interrupt you, but can you tell us how

22 many people got killed in the first ambush and how many in the second, do

23 you remember?

24 A. I didn't count them and I wouldn't be able to find an individual

25 who would be able to count the dead. It was night-time when the first

Page 2237

1 ambush took place. As for the second, there were dead and wounded, but I

2 can't tell you how many. Well, I could tell you there were 50 or a

3 hundred. I could tell you anything since I didn't count them, and I

4 can't tell you what I didn't see.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. Thank you, too.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 1D86, page 3 in

8 Serbian and English, line 22 from the top, line 22 and the following

9 lines.

10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11 Q. This is a statement given to the state commission of the BH on

12 the 22nd of September, 1995.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown the

14 document.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just wait a moment. It will come up on the

16 screen.

17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Microphone not activated]

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Let me quote your words.

21 "The second ambush took place above Buljim."

22 A. Above Buljim, out of the question. Above Kamenica.

23 Q. Thank you. You're right.

24 "The second ambush took place above Bratunacka Kamenica.

25 Shooting started from all sides and I found shelter in a ditch, waiting

Page 2238

1 for nightfall. I set out along ferns and came across a young man called

2 Fuad. I gave him some food and proceeded to join our own people. It

3 seemed to me that there were 500 dead bodies" --

4 A. No, I didn't say that there were 500 dead bodies. I only said

5 that it seemed that -- like you were treading on dead bodies.

6 Q. Is it possible that the typist added himself the number of 500?

7 A. Well, he could have put 1.000 and 5.000 there. I know that I

8 didn't say a number because I did not count them.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can document 1D086 be shown at

11 page 3, or rather, this page and this witness statement may be added in

12 the transcript that this isn't something that the witness said, that it

13 was entered into the statement against his will.

14 Can this document be admitted into evidence? Thank you.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, everything what the witness says is

16 on the transcript. This document will be received.

17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be admitted under seal.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D45, under seal,

20 Your Honour.

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Thank you, Witness.

23 A. Thank you.

24 Q. If I can quote what you just said, you said that there were a

25 great many dead but you did not count them.

Page 2239

1 A. I said that there were many dead bodies and that as I walked I

2 was treading on bodies; and I didn't count them, I was not able to.

3 Q. Thank you. We have your handwritten statement in e-court, that's

4 page 9 in Serbian.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be shown?

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is the number?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll give you the number.

8 1D86, page 3, sixth line.

9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10 Q. And I'm quoting what you wrote in your hand.

11 "It seems to me that there were 500 dead bodies."

12 A. I said that I didn't count them and that I didn't give a number,

13 but you can write whatever you want.

14 Q. I didn't write it. This is your handwriting. Look at it. You

15 have it in front of you on the screen. It's line 6.

16 "It seems to me that there were 500 dead bodies."

17 A. I don't recall saying this.

18 Q. But is this your handwriting, Witness?

19 A. Just like you say the second ambush was outside Buljim and it was

20 outside Kamenica.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, could you help us, please. On the right

22 side of the screen, there you can see a document in handwriting. Was

23 that done by you or by somebody else? Is that your handwriting?

24 I think you should look on the right screen. Is that your

25 handwriting?

Page 2240

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not my handwriting.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly not.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

6 I would like to tender this document into evidence for us to see

7 that this witness denied it was his statement. Thank you.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, he didn't deny that this is his statement.

9 He just said it is not his handwriting. And we have already received it

10 as D45, under seal.

11 Please carry on.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise to the

13 interpreters.

14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, can you tell us who wrote this statement?

16 A. This one here?

17 Q. The one on the right-hand side of the monitor, the manuscript,

18 who wrote it if it's not you?

19 A. I did not write it.

20 Q. Do you remember giving a statement and somebody writing your

21 words down?

22 A. I gave a statement that I saw dead bodies, but I didn't give a

23 figure. How could I have possibly counted the dead in pitch dark?

24 Q. I understand that, but you can answer my question with a yes or

25 no.

Page 2241

1 A. I said I did not count the bodies and I did not give a figure for

2 the dead.

3 Q. I'm just asking who wrote this statement?

4 A. I don't know who wrote it. I did not.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I know we've gone

8 around on this one for quite some time now, but if we go to page 7

9 there's a clear indication of who the statement was taken down by. It's

10 actually translated in English as well. If the exhibit is already in

11 evidence, I suppose it would be all right to read it and I'll tell you

12 what it says. It says: "Statement taken by Erna Lucic," and then

13 there's a clerk signature and then there's a statement given by the

14 witness. And if you look at the actual exhibit written in the B/C/S,

15 it's very clear. You can identify different handwriting on the document

16 itself. You can see the witness's name written down on the document.

17 You can see the person who took the statement's name written down on the

18 document as well.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It would be even easier to have page 7 on the

20 screen.

21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, it would be.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think this is the first page and not page 7.

23 Is that correct?

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's right. That's page 1. Page 7 is

25 ERN ending 2281. That's 6 -- page 6, I think, in e-court. If we just go

Page 2242

1 down to where the stamp is -- we're not broadcasting this, right? Right.

2 If we go down to the stamp and blow it up, you can see the witness's name

3 very clearly. And we can go to the translation.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which page?

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm very sorry. Mr. President?

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which page?

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Which page of the translation --

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the English.

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Ah, in the English.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have it as --

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is on the screen.

13 MR. VANDERPUYE: You can very clearly see the people who are

14 involved in the making and the taking of the statement, which frankly

15 corresponds to what the witness has testified to.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we have again on the screen that page

17 with -- to which Mr. Tolimir was referring about the 500 dead bodies, in

18 Serbian and in English. I don't know which page it was.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. The document is 1D086.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear the page

21 because Mr. Tolimir was speaking over the Judge.

22 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, it's

23 page 9 in e-court, if you mean the document which is a manuscript.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. On top of this page we have

25 now on the screen in English and in B/C/S the handwritten version.

Page 2243

1 Do you have any further questions related to this document,

2 Mr. Tolimir?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

4 no questions, but I would like the witness to confirm that he did not

5 give the number 500, that it's the commission who took the statement that

6 put in the number, which was a state commission. They wrote the number.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who wrote it. I

8 didn't write that figure. That's the most important thing. Because I

9 was not able to count. Let's get that clear.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we have the answer very clear on the

11 record.

12 Mr. Mindua has a question for the witness.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I would just like to

14 check something regarding the authenticity of this handwritten document.

15 Could I see the last page, please.

16 Madam Usher, could I see the last page with the signature on it.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In both languages, please.

18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, could you read the last

19 paragraph in your language, please. Are you able to do that? I can then

20 listen to the interpretation into French.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is written here I cannot make

22 out at all. I can't read it.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] It's a shame. Never mind. All

24 right.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But could you tell us if the signature on the

Page 2244

1 right side on the bottom, if you recognise this signature. Do you

2 recognise this signature?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can read it. I can read the

4 text, but I didn't write it, if I remember well.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You see a name there, a signature. Have you made

6 this signature or somebody else?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember writing that.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is this signature similar to your normal

9 signature as you use it if you sign a document?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I usually write block letters.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Even if you sign a document?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I usually sign in block letters.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. I think we can leave this

14 topic here and, Mr. Tolimir, you shall continue.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Can we

16 show 1D85 to the witness in e-court to see the signature of this witness,

17 where he uses block letters not italics, and that shows that this one is

18 a forgery.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, this is my signature in

20 block letters. Most of the time I write in block letters.

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. That I wrote something, I didn't write anything. I can recognise

24 this signature. Now, what's written on top, I don't care. I know what

25 I've seen, I know what I've survived.

Page 2245

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that.

2 Are you tendering this document, Mr. Tolimir?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D46, under seal.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please continue.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show document 1D085, page 3

8 in both Serbian and English, the last paragraph but one. It's a

9 statement given by this witness to the State Security Service of the

10 Ministry of the Interior in Tuzla on the 27 October 2010 [as

11 interpreted]. There it is on the screen but we need the next page in

12 English, not the one on the screen now.

13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. We're looking at the last paragraph but one. I'll quote the last

15 five lines, but I will not read out the place names. Although you can

16 see the place names on the screen, I will avoid identifying you. I

17 quote:

18 "In Jelah I found Sacir and Kasim whose last name I don't know.

19 Both of them from the village of ... Bratunac municipality and we went

20 off together towards ... and after that to ... on 29 July 1995 ... fell

21 and I returned to ... together with 14 other people where we stayed for

22 42 days. And after that. Ten of us went towards Kladanj and we arrived

23 there on 18 September 1995."

24 A. I did not mention Sacir and Kasim. I said Kasim and Sacir I

25 found in Jelah. Not Secan but Sacir and Kasim.

Page 2246

1 Q. Thank you for the correction. So it's Sacir and Kasim from

2 Bratunac municipality.

3 I want your answer to this question, though: How many of you in

4 total set out to that place in Zepa?

5 A. From Pobudje, only I, Sacir, and Kasim from Jelah. We spent the

6 night in Jelah. Somewhere above the village, on the hill above Jelah,

7 shooting started. I didn't know this place Pobudje. Ramiz took us

8 there, and there I parted ways with Sacir and Kasim. Sacir wanted to

9 stay on the asphalt roads to Cerska and Baljkovica, and when we set out

10 he asks me, "Do you know the road?" I said, "I don't know, I would need

11 to see where Rogac was to find my way."

12 However, we set out and we ran into a young man who was running

13 from the other direction. We asked, "Is there anyone left there?" He

14 answered, "No one. Everyone took to the woods. They lived on what they

15 could find in the woods, roasting snails and mushrooms." We asked him,

16 "Are you from Jagodnja? Do you know that forester Hasim?" He says,

17 "No." How many children does he have? Three. What's his wife's name?

18 We told him the wife's name. And he says, "I'll join you and go with

19 you."

20 We went on. We ran into some dead bodies on the road or along

21 the road, eight or nine bodies. Then we went up the hill. "Do you know

22 where Rahunici is?" And he says, "Rahunici is up there, where the mosque

23 used to be." So we went downhill towards Rahunici. There was a wire

24 fence with a berry field inside and we went on to Zepa.

25 Q. May I just stop you here. Where did you see those nine bodies?

Page 2247

1 A. In Pobudje, overlooking Jelah. I don't know what that hill

2 overlooking Jelah was. They were lying down. One of them had his legs

3 stuck on to sticks around the tree. Somebody said there were nine

4 bodies, but I saw eight.

5 Q. In this text that I just quoted, how did you find yourself with

6 14 other persons? Where did they come from?

7 A. There were no 14 people. There were three of us, and when we

8 walked along the fence around the berry field, we ran into one more

9 person. He said, "Where are you going?" He said we were going along

10 Sutjeska towards Zepa. He says, "There were many ambushes there. You

11 can't get through." I said, "I'm going to a place I know." He says,

12 "You're crazy." And I say, "If I'm crazy, you don't have to join me."

13 This young man went away and I never saw him again.

14 We spent the night at Rahunici and set out again in the morning.

15 Neither of us knew the road. We emerged at a road near the hill used for

16 transporting wood. I saw a cemetery and some bunkers, and on one aim

17 there was a name, Mehir or Menir. We went on top of the hill. I saw a

18 linden tree. I said Rogac must be there, and the other man said, "If

19 you're sure, let's go."

20 We came to a valley. There were eight heads of cattle there. We

21 did not dare go through the valley, fearing that we might run into a

22 shepherd or something. And just after the valley I told them, "Sit down

23 here, I'll climb atop a hill to see where we were." I realised that we

24 were close to a place called Sebiocina and I went down to join my fellows

25 and said, "I know where we are now." But we waited first for the dark

Page 2248

1 and headed out towards Rogac. We found the nearest road just near the

2 church via Vojvodici village, through a wood, and we passed the Ljubin

3 mill and we got to that linden tree. I said, "Janko Brezanici's house is

4 here. It's dangerous, he has dangerous dogs." We took a side road

5 towards Kostraca --

6 Q. Thank you. Just tell us, how many are you at this point?

7 A. Three of us. And there we heard a voice or perhaps it was the

8 sound of an animal, like a sheep or something. I said, "There must be a

9 pen or a barn here." I said, "Let's go around," and we found ourselves

10 in a meadow, the grass has not -- had not been mown yet. Perhaps ten

11 minutes later another two persons appeared at the spot where we were

12 standing. I kept my silence, but Sacir said, "Do you see anything?" I

13 said, "I do." And he asks, "What are we going to do?" I said, "Maybe

14 there are people." He said, "How would they be here?" I said, "The same

15 way we were." And we moved towards them, but they were still not seeing

16 us.

17 The last among us slipped and fell onto the ground. As they were

18 moving towards us, we realised they had rucksacks on their backs. When

19 they came close, we saw one of them had an automatic rifle trained at us.

20 They asked, "Who are you and where are you from?" Sacir said, "I'm from

21 Bratunac municipality." And when -- and the other person said then, "If

22 you are a Muslim, then you must know a Muslim prayer, tell it to me."

23 And the other one started telling. And then I recognised the voice and I

24 said, "Is it you Velja?" And he said, "Were you there when the shooting

25 started? Did you hear the shooting?" I said, "We did." They said,

Page 2249

1 "They were shooting at us."

2 Then we found ourselves in a meadow. They had come probably to

3 move the herd or something. They -- Ramiz was hurt. Apparently he was

4 shot in the back, so from that point on we were four.

5 Q. Who is Ramiz?

6 A. Ramiz Becirovic, a younger man. It's not the Ramiz Becirovic you

7 seem to be asking about.

8 Q. Thank you. And when did you come to the point when you were 14?

9 A. The four of us got to Zepa, and in Zepa we arrived on the 26th.

10 On the 29th, Zepa fell. I spent eight days in Zepa. And a group formed

11 there, including me, to go to Tuzla. We got to Zalisina. Three of our

12 men stayed there.

13 Q. These men who went with you, were they from Zepa or Srebrenica?

14 A. There were some from Bratunac municipality, from Srebrenica

15 municipality, and Vlasenica municipality.

16 Q. You said ten of you arrived to the territory controlled by the

17 BH army. What happened to the last four?

18 A. Three of us, three of that group with which we set out, they

19 remained in Zalisina. Two of us got killed in Stedric, they stepped on

20 mines.

21 Q. These who stayed behind, did they stay alone?

22 A. Yes, alone, but they crossed over. We did not have enough food.

23 We didn't have any food, so we first had to find food and then move on.

24 Q. You mean those two saved themselves?

25 A. They crossed over.

Page 2250

1 Q. Those three who got killed, how did they get killed?

2 A. They stepped on mines in Stedric.

3 Q. Do you know what their names are?

4 A. Abid from Piric, I don't know his last name; and from Mostahovina

5 village it's Samir or Amir, I couldn't tell you exactly. Salim, Salim,

6 those two stepped on the mine.

7 Q. Were these villages around Zepa or Srebrenica or Bratunac?

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 A. Mostahovina and the other one was from Piric village.

13 Q. So 12 of you got out. Is that true?

14 A. After those two got killed in Stedric. I think eight of us moved

15 on from there and then we were in Srebrenica. One group from Udric

16 returned and we were together with them from then on. We hid until the

17 9th of September. On the 9th of September towards -- we went towards

18 Tuzla and on the 18th I came to Kladanj.

19 Q. How large was that group?

20 A. Quite a few came from Udric, but four or five of them only joined

21 us.

22 Q. And how many in total returned from Udric?

23 A. I don't know. I just know how many joined us.

24 Q. Are they all from that column that started out from Jaglici?

25 A. Of course. They were not able to get through, so they came back.

Page 2256

1 your turn. Please continue.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

3 WITNESS: PW-032 [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]

6 Q. Good afternoon to you, Witness -- good evening, I should say.

7 When we left off last time, Friday, I was asking you about the

8 sharing of information in the northern facility between the army, the

9 MUP, and I think I mentioned the MUP and the 21st Division in particular.

10 And you indicated that in principle this information was shared amongst

11 you not very often, infrequently. Could you tell us how this information

12 was shared when it was shared.

13 A. When I assumed this duty, information was not being shared at

14 all. I don't know what the reasons for that were and I didn't inquire.

15 In the first several months of my work there, I felt the need to exchange

16 information. If we had information concerning political leaders which

17 had nothing to do with the army and combat activities, why not convey the

18 information to the persons who were working there. Similarly, if we had

19 information concerning combat activities of primarily the 21st Division,

20 I didn't see why this sort of information could not be shared right there

21 and then and forwarded to the commands concerned.

22 This sort of co-operation intensified in the spring of 1995 with,

23 of course, approval from the command concerned. Ever since that time

24 this exchange of information went smoothly. We provided information to

25 the CSB and vice versa. We also gave information to the 21st Division if

Page 2257

1 we had any, and they would in turn provide us with information.

2 Q. And was the information exchanged electronically? Was it

3 exchanged in hard copy? How was it physically done?

4 A. Every piece of information in its original form as noted and

5 typed would be conveyed to the CSB. We would merely give our heading and

6 time and say that the information was received from the state security

7 centre, and in this form it would be sent to the command concerned.

8 Q. All right. I'd like to show you P239. I don't think there's any

9 concern about broadcasting it.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 MR. VANDERPUYE:

12 Q. And what I'd like to do is I'd like to place side by side in

13 B/C/S -- you know what, I think we maybe shouldn't broadcast it because I

14 want to display also the 2nd Corps intercept, that's 2923A. And I want

15 to see if we can put those side by side without the translation and then

16 we can look at the translation afterwards.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Tolimir.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In my version the document cannot

19 be read at all because the copy I have on my screen is very poor. Thank

20 you.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are in the same position as you, Mr. Tolimir.

22 We are waiting that it comes up on the screen, the other document, and

23 then it should be enlarged, the relevant portion.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, the number is 2923A. All right, I think we

25 do have it on the screen, at least what I'd like to show.

Page 2258

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, could you indicate which portion

2 so that that can be enlarged.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes --

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If we can get it back on the screen.

5 A technical problem.

6 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right, if we could just focus in on the

7 headers, I think we can start from here.

8 Q. On the left side you can see that this is a print-out -- I'm

9 sorry, Mr. Gajic.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I can't

12 see a single thing. I can't read the text at all.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we have all the -- perhaps the Court

14 Officer can help to bring it up in a better way and to look at the screen

15 of Mr. Tolimir if that is different from ours.

16 Mr. Gajic.

17 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Apologies, Your Honour. The image

18 that Mr. Tolimir can see is much poorer than what the rest of us have

19 here. It must be the fault of the monitor or at any rate the technology

20 on his desk.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that. We will do our best to

22 resolve this problem, but I must confess our screen is not much better.

23 It's very poor quality as well.

24 Mr. Vanderpuye, have you a convenient, clear picture?

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Well, I have the advantage of knowing exactly

Page 2259

1 what it says, so to me it's quite clear. But we can take it in stages

2 and I think it will become clear as what I'm using it for, and it's not

3 necessarily for substantive purposes so I don't think there's that much

4 stock to be placed in it. It's only really to demonstrate or to

5 illustrate certain things relevant to the witness's evidence.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, were these intercepts part of

7 this binder we got in hard copy recently? I'm not sure about that.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think -- yes, I think the one on the right

9 most definitely was. That was, I think, admitted in the package relevant

10 to PW-024. The one on the left, however, was -- is not part of it and

11 that's the reason why it's on the screen, is I wanted to show you

12 something about it. But I think we can proceed. If you're able to blow

13 up any part of the screen, that's fine. If we can blow up just the top

14 part so we can see the caption on the left and on the right, that would

15 be a good start. Okay.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE:

18 Q. On the left side, Witness, you can see that it indicates this is

19 a print-out. It reads Army Republika of Bosnia-Herzegovina. You can see

20 that second -- from the 2nd Corps. Then it indicates the site and the

21 report number, 05/12795. Do you see that?

22 A. Well, I must say I can't see it that well, but I do see. I can

23 manage.

24 Q. All right. And is that a report that would be generated by your

25 unit, the one on the left?

Page 2260

1 A. Well, as far as this part above the dotted line is concerned,

2 it's the kind of report that we prepare for transmission, while the part

3 below the dotted line is the report taken over from the CSB SDB, meaning

4 State Security Service, of Tuzla.

5 Q. What I'd like to focus you on in particular in this document, if

6 we can go down to the bottom, is you'll see the number 557.

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could focus on that particular intercept

8 and maybe we can blow it up. All right. And if we could go and find the

9 match on the other side, the other document. Okay.

10 Q. Now, Witness, are you able to see both of these -- both of these

11 notations in these reports, the one on the left and the one on the right,

12 corresponding to report number 557?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And looking at them, can you tell if they're identical?

15 A. From what I can see, they're absolutely identical.

16 Q. And is this the nature or the way in which information was

17 exchanged between the MUP and your unit -- CSB, I should say, and your

18 unit?

19 A. In this case we're looking at a report that we got from the SDB,

20 the State Security Service, and sent to the relevant command. We can see

21 that the number of the route covered by them is 557, while this same

22 connecting route has a different reference number given by us. I also

23 see that this was monitored on the radio relay route Zvornik-Vlasenica on

24 the frequency 785.000 megahertz.

25 Since the people who were doing this had no particular military

Page 2261

1 experience, the route Zvornik-Vlasenica never existed as a route. There

2 was a connection from Zvornik to Gucevo in Serbia, or Cer, and then with

3 a different type of communication, SMC 132 Veliki Zep and from then on to

4 Vlasenica, the command of the Drina Corps.

5 Q. All right. I'd like to show you another document.

6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Before I do, Mr. President, I would like to

7 tender the document on the left, that's 65 ter 2923A. It does not have

8 an English translation. The translation for P239, however, to the extent

9 that it's identical, can serve as a translation for this document as

10 well. But if you'd prefer, I can have a translation made for 2923A

11 separately.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think that would be appreciated because we

13 are -- want to show that the -- there is an identical text, and in that

14 case it should be translated as well. That will be marked for

15 identification, but could you please indicate is there a handwritten

16 B/C/S original document?

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: For this document I believe there is. I'm not

18 tendering it at this point because to the extent that it's attached to a

19 witness that may be coming, I think it would be more appropriate to enter

20 it in that way.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received and marked for

22 identification, pending translation.

23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you tender this under seal?

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, it should be tendered under

Page 2262

1 seal. And Ms. Stewart has pointed out to me if it's possible to mark

2 this exhibit as P239A so that it's connected to the other exhibit that's

3 on the screen, if it's possible. I don't know whether we can do it that

4 way, but otherwise we can just make a record of it.

5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I received the information that the document P239

7 is not under seal. In this case I think it's not necessary to receive

8 this new exhibit under seal. Do we agree?

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, the problem is -- I'm sorry. The problem

10 is that with respect to this document it has certain information that is

11 protected in the record that the other document, which is identical in

12 substance to it, doesn't have. So I think you're right, it would be

13 difficult to connect them in any event because one would be under seal

14 and the other one wouldn't be, but it's okay. For the record then, we'll

15 just make a note of the exhibit number and I'll make a record that it's

16 specifically attached to the P239.

17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer].

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In this case, the Chamber would receive it as a

19 new document with a new number marked for identification under seal. I

20 think this is the most appropriate way to be able to identify and to

21 distinguish between both of them.

22 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 2923A will be Exhibit P268, under seal,

23 marked for identification.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

25 Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

Page 2263

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Could I have, please, 65 ter 3113 in e-court, please.

3 I will need 65 ter 311B -- 3113B and I will need also 3113C, and

4 just the B/C/S so that we can place them side by side.

5 Q. All right, Witness, I have in front of you now on the left-hand

6 side another document. It's headed Army of Republic of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina and it has also a report number of 06/21795. Below

8 the caption you can see that this is an intercept between -- it says

9 Puk Cerovich and a general. And you can see on the right-hand side a

10 document that is entitled "CSB SDB Tuzla," and that the caption of it,

11 we'll get a translation but it should read from the PEB

12 counter-electronic warfare of the 2nd Corps.

13 Do you see those documents in front of you now?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And if you look at the two intercepts in this case, you can see

16 that substantively they are identical. Can you confirm that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And is this the type of information that you would, that is, your

19 unit, would furnish to the CSB or SDB?

20 A. As far as I can see, this is the reverse case. This report

21 received -- was received by my unit. It was captured within the range of

22 the RRU-1 device. It's the usual report when there was no audibility of

23 the speaker at the other end of the line. This report was handed over to

24 the CSB and they sent it, as far as I can see, in its original form.

25 Q. All right. Thank you for that. Now, I'd like to show you --

Page 2264

1 well, first of all, I'd just like you to make a note of the location from

2 which the 2nd Corps document -- well, make a note of the location that

3 the 2nd Corps document indicates, okay, because I want to show you

4 another document and that is 65 ter --

5 A. If you mean the site --

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please turn off your microphone.

7 Please carry on, sir.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you mean the site where it was

9 recorded, it's the northern location, the northern site, where the State

10 Security Service had its listening unit too.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE:

12 Q. What I'd like to show you is 65 ter 311A [sic], and I'd like to

13 keep the CSB document also on the screen.

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: We can't do that?

15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you perhaps repeat the number to clarify.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. The number is 65 ter 3113A,

18 and I would like to keep on the screen, if we can, the one on the right,

19 which I believe is 65 ter 3113B. If we can. If not, it's no problem, we

20 can just go to the next document also. And it shouldn't be broadcast

21 also. If we could just blow up the part where you can see it says

22 "1305." All right. That's just -- that's fine.

23 Q. What I'm showing you, Witness, is a notebook entry of an operator

24 attached to the 21st Division. And if you look at the substance of

25 this - we don't have translations in front of us - but if you look at the

Page 2265

1 substance of this intercept, can you tell if it corresponds to the

2 intercept on the right which indicates a time of 1304. If you're not

3 able to see it, just let me know and I can blow it up and perhaps we can

4 even read them both into the record so that it's more clear.

5 A. I can see it and I think it's a report written down in a notebook

6 among the reports collected by my unit. It has an indication of

7 frequency, hour, participants in the conversation, and the signature of

8 the person who collected this information. The report is absolutely

9 identical to the one from SDB Tuzla.

10 Q. And is this the kind of information that was shared between the

11 SDB, the 21st Division, and your unit?

12 A. I've already said, since I had already had two years experience

13 in the intelligence-gathering section, it was obvious that the

14 information needed to be collated on the spot for transparency sake and

15 the relevant commander approved it. And it was quite normal to collate

16 information. Every piece of information collected at the level of the

17 division was always interesting to the corps, although the information

18 available to the corps was not always of interest to the division. The

19 information that was of interest was mainly the one that concerned the

20 area of responsibility of the division, namely, the Posavina and the

21 21st.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, these are completely

24 different telegrams and the contents are different. For instance, the

25 third sentence says in the manuscript:

Page 2266

1 "It concerns those Talic's men."

2 And in the other transcript it says:

3 "They will go with Talic's men."

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was my observation as well. Thank you.

5 That can't be absolutely identical. If you look at the second

6 line, after the capital letter C there is some difference to the text on

7 the left side. You should clarify that.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yeah, I was just about to. Thank you,

9 Mr. President. What I'd like to show is 65 ter 3113D, as in David, and

10 if we could put that -- it's a notebook entry, if we could place that

11 side by side to the notebook entry that's here.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means the handwritten notebook on the left

13 side should stay on the screen --

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- and the other -- the right document should be

16 replaced by the other one.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's right. Thank you, Mr. President.

18 If we're able to place the 1304 entry somewhere close to the

19 1305 entry so that we can compare them. All right, that's probably close

20 enough. What we have here are two notebook entries, as you can see, one

21 with a time of 1305, monitoring a frequency of 255.850, and another one

22 with a frequency of 1304 -- I mean, with a time of 1304, with a frequency

23 of 255 -- monitoring 255.850. Both of these intercepts concern a

24 Puk Cerovic and a general.

25 Now, Mr. Tolimir is correct that these intercepts are not

Page 2267

1 absolutely identical --

2 Q. But looking at the two intercepts, can you tell if they're

3 related to the same subject matter or concern the same event?

4 A. Although it's been 15 years now, I think that these two entries

5 are identical, that the report on the left was captured on the southern

6 location because the name in the signature belongs to a person who was

7 there. And I believe the report on the right was captured by the

8 northern location. It's one of those typical situations when they

9 covered the same frequency without knowing that they were doing the same

10 thing, monitoring the same frequency.

11 I also emphasised earlier that errors are quite possible in the

12 speed that we had to work with. One letter, one sound, can be missed and

13 the computers we had were old. And you can see that every letter that

14 normally should have a diacritic, for instance, C with a diacritic, was

15 typed as CH because that's the only thing we could do on that type of

16 computer.

17 Q. All right. Thank you for that.

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to tender both of

19 these documents. I would -- I think they may have to be marked for

20 identification and I will supply the Trial Chamber with the appropriate

21 English translations -- actually, I think they both have them and I'll

22 identify them for the record.

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: So it's 65 ter 3113A is the English translation

25 of -- okay, and it has an attached English translation, I understand.

Page 2268

1 Okay. So 65 ter 3113A. And I'd like to tender 65 ter 3113D, under seal.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have seen a written, a typed transcript of

3 this handwritten version. Do you tender that as well?

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay, and it's 3113B is the print-out of the

5 handwritten on the right.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Exactly.

7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I heard that we have -- they will all be received

9 under one exhibit number with A, B, C, D, but not all of them have an

10 English translation.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: C does not have an English translation, I

12 understand, but they also do have different times on them and I don't

13 know whether or not they should be tendered all together or they

14 should -- all right. I understand it's probably better to do it all

15 together, so that's what we'll do.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: A, B, and D will be received as one exhibit under

17 A, B, and D, but C as well received, marked for identification. And all

18 under seal?

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I understand there's one that doesn't need to be

20 under seal and that's B.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. A, C, and D under seal.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.

23 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 3113A will be Exhibit P269A, under seal.

24 65 ter 3113B will be Exhibit P269 [sic], 65 ter 3113C will be

25 Exhibit P269 [sic], under seal and marked for identification.

Page 2269

1 65 ter 3113D will be Exhibit P269D, under seal.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

3 Please carry on.

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Now, Witness, you have mentioned in terms of the organisation and

6 personnel of the northern and southern facilities that there was -- that

7 there were platoons that were assigned there, platoon commanders, squad

8 commanders, and so on. Did the platoon commanders supervise -- or squad

9 commanders, I should say, supervise the operators that were there on a

10 day-to-day basis?

11 A. Squad commanders not only supervised but actively worked on the

12 job for the simple reason that these platoons and squads were never

13 manned to full strength. Some of the personnel had to be dispatched to

14 the front line, and only a minimum number was assigned to such units.

15 Q. And did the platoon commanders also participate in the

16 interception process and supervise the operators?

17 A. Yes, absolutely. The commander was both the soldier, the

18 commander, controller, and everything else. He actively participated in

19 all these activities 24 hours a day.

20 Q. And were the squad commanders and platoon commanders, were they

21 responsible for the quality of the work that was done at the interception

22 sites?

23 A. As I said, people worked like slaves, as it were, in order that

24 they be kept there rather than sent to the areas of combat. That's why

25 for the duration of their stay at these sites while they were on duty,

Page 2270

1 they did the best to do the job as well as possible.

2 Q. Did there ever arise an occasion where an operator had to be

3 disciplined for poor conduct or for poor-quality work?

4 A. Well, cautions were always present in our work. As far as I

5 remember, a year before more than 50 per cent of the personnel who were

6 manning the unit were reassigned and sent to the front lines. I'm

7 referring to 1994.

8 Q. And was that a form of discipline or was that a matter of

9 necessity?

10 A. Well, it was more a matter of necessity, I'd say.

11 Q. In terms of the equipment that was made available to the

12 operators in order to do their work, you mentioned that there were

13 notebooks that were provided to them, there were tape recorders that were

14 provided to them. Can you tell us what other kinds of equipment was

15 available or made available to the operators?

16 A. Every operator tried to make their contribution by bringing in

17 their notebooks. As far as logistics is concerned, the only thing that

18 the command of the 2nd Corps provided in sufficient quantity was food.

19 The rest was down to our resourcefulness. We would be given a number of

20 notebooks, but that was never enough. So we had to resort to our own

21 devices, find all the notepads or notebooks that were used on one side of

22 a sheet. I know that a truck-load of such paper was brought to us.

23 Other stationery that was supposed to be destroyed was not, there were

24 delays, and we would be provided with that, as well as with cigarette

25 paper.

Page 2271

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: May I have 65 ter 01357 in e-court, please, to

2 show the witness.

3 Q. Do you recognise what's on the screen in front of you, Witness?

4 A. What I can see here is a radio amateur equipment --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and that's the set to the left.

7 Whereas the device to the right is ICER-100. I'm not sure, though, it's

8 been a long time. These devices were brought to us from radio clubs.

9 MR. VANDERPUYE:

10 Q. And the device to the right, can you tell us what that does, if

11 you know. What is its function?

12 A. The one on the right can play a dual role. It may be difficult

13 to explain to the Chamber. One of the options is that it can receive

14 short waves, and the second, to analyse signals from RRU-800 radio

15 lengths.

16 Q. And the device on the right, it says "Kenwood" on there, if you

17 can see that, what does that do?

18 A. For the most part, these devices were used to expand the range

19 and to receive signals emitted from RRU-800.

20 Q. And in their original form were they able to do that or did they

21 need to be modified by the operators or other people working in the unit?

22 A. To explain this I need to say a few technical things. This

23 device was possible to receive one -- to capture one channel or one

24 frequency, and that's one of the ways in which the signal from RRU-800

25 could be received. In order to improve the quality of the signal, an

Page 2272

1 attachment, that's to say an amplifier, was added to this device in order

2 to make the signal audible. There was another device that was also the

3 product of our mechanics, which is the converter - it was a makeshift

4 device - and its role was as follows. Since these were not military

5 devices and were not produced for professional use, whichever signal you

6 wanted to capture it didn't have a fixed frequency. And the converter

7 had the role of placing, fixing, the signal at 16 or 18 megahertz which

8 is where -- the fixed frequencies that we had. I don't know if I can

9 explain this. The device was not calibrated to receive military

10 frequencies. It was not fixed onto military frequencies.

11 Q. And did it have to be modified in order to do that?

12 A. Absolutely. The first task that we had was to expand the range.

13 Since these sets were mostly intended for ultra -- rather, for short-wave

14 ranges. Even though some may gainsay what I said just now, it is true

15 that these devices could be used to bridge this difficulty. There were

16 four ways of doing it. The first one was to use this device - and we did

17 this, as you will see in the reports - to cover one frequency and one

18 channel. One transmitting and one receiving frequency. If you have two

19 speakers, what is the receiving signal to one side will be the

20 transmitting signal to the other side. So this was a way of monitoring

21 both the receiving and the transmitting end at different channels, but it

22 was difficult to fit these conversations together. We didn't have the

23 technical options for that.

24 The second way that was also used frequently was to follow one

25 frequency, be it the transmitting or the receiving one, and because of

Page 2273

1 two anomalies or imperfections of the device itself, we would follow both

2 speakers. These anomalies consist of the following. The first one:

3 Because of the feedback, you see we have the telephone and, of course,

4 the role of the microphone and the role of the receiver is similar. So

5 the speaker speaking into the phone on the other end, his voice would be

6 transmitted through the receiver and that's how we would hear what the

7 other speaker at the other end was saying. That was one of the technical

8 possibilities we used.

9 The other anomaly is the following. Because it was impossible to

10 have differential sets in the devices at the terminal stations and

11 because we had to pass from four-wire systems to two-wire systems - and

12 this was a specific system used by the army - we got the maximum out of

13 what we had. The same applies to RRU-800 and to RRU-1.

14 A moment ago we were able to see the frequency from the RRU-1

15 range, where this return signal was quite audible. We had another

16 speaker speaking -- or rather, we had two speakers, speaker one and

17 speaker two, speaking on one frequency. This is a classic example of a

18 telephone situation, where the telephone doesn't work properly, and for

19 that very reason we were able to hear the other speaker. Although,

20 normally the voice of the other speaker should be carried either

21 10 megahertz higher or 10 megahertz lower than the frequency on which the

22 speaker at this end was speaking.

23 Q. All right. Thank you for that. I just want to ask you a little

24 bit about the antenna systems that you had available at the respective

25 northern and southern sites. Just generally and really in very -- the

Page 2274

1 most plain and basic terms, can you tell us what types of antennas you

2 had at your disposal?

3 A. To put it simply, 90 per cent of antennae were handmade,

4 makeshift antennae, done out of traffic signs, water pipelines, copper

5 wires with built-in amplifiers. I recall that we had one military

6 parabolic antenna as well. We used old television antennas, which proved

7 to work quite well on certain frequencies. In other words, we didn't

8 have specifically the antennae we needed. That's to say, we had this --

9 we had several of the military parabolic antenna and the rest were

10 makeshift antenna.

11 Q. All right. I'd just like to show you 65 ter 1632.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Before I do, Ms. Stewart has reminded me, I'd

13 like to offer into evidence 65 ter 1357.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P270.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE:

18 Q. Could you just briefly tell us -- first of all, are these the

19 kinds of antennas that you've described?

20 A. Yes, they are. But in 1995, the mast that we can see here did

21 not exist. The antennae were placed on roof-tops. To the left we can

22 see a parabolic antenna, which was the military antenna I was referring

23 to; the one in the middle is a helicoidal antenna; and the other two are

24 Yagi antennae. We also see a stick antenna, which is the rod in the

25 middle.

Page 2275

1 Q. All right. Thank you for that.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to offer these -- I'm

3 sorry, this photo into evidence. I have two others which also depict the

4 same or similar antennas. They are 1633 and 1634, respectively.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And do you want to have them as one exhibit, the

6 three photos? No, as separate exhibits.

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: They can go in together, I think.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm told it's better for clear identification to

9 have them separate. They will all three be received.

10 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's fine.

11 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1632 will be Exhibit P271. 65 ter 1633

12 will be Exhibit P272. 65 ter 1634 will be Exhibit P272 -- 73.

13 MR. VANDERPUYE:

14 Q. Witness, are you able to recognise the location where these

15 antennas are?

16 A. If you're referring to this photograph, it's at the northern

17 site.

18 Q. All right. I'd like to show you 65 ter 1635. Now, this appears

19 to be another parabolic antenna. Can you identify for us where -- the

20 location of this site?

21 A. Based on what I can see, I think the antenna was located at the

22 southern site, on the roof of the southern site.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to move this into evidence as well.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.

Page 2276

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: 65 ter 1635. There is also 65 ter 1636, 1637,

2 and 1638. I'd like to show the witness the last one, though.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They all four will be received.

4 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1635 will be Exhibit P274. 65 ter 1636

5 will be Exhibit P275. 65 ter 1637 will be Exhibit P276. 65 ter 1638

6 will be Exhibit P277.

7 MR. VANDERPUYE:

8 Q. I just wanted to show you this particular antenna and I wonder if

9 you could tell us a little bit about it.

10 A. This is a makeshift helicoidal antenna. Such antennae that we

11 made could not pick up all of the range used by RRU-800. So we had to

12 make several antennae which would cover 650 to 700 frequencies, or 750 to

13 800, or 850 to 900. What does it mean that it resonates at a certain

14 frequency? It means that it works best in terms of resonance activity

15 and capture. You can see that this was a makeshift antenna. The pipe

16 that you see is the sewage pipe. The antenna has a pre-amplifier and

17 twists of copper wire.

18 Q. Thank you for that. Now, you were asked a few questions, I

19 think, concerning how it was that VRS communications were able to be

20 intercepted given the fact that they knew or should have known they were

21 being listened to. I would like to show you 65 ter 2978 in relation to

22 that evidence that you gave.

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I understand it's 2978A.

24 Q. All right. I think we can all see it now.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Maybe we can blow up the translation a little

Page 2277

1 bit so that everybody can see that more clearly.

2 Q. This is an intercept that was taken by an operator in the

3 2nd Corps, and it concerns a conversation between Panorama 3 and a

4 Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic. And in that conversation you can see, as it

5 reads -- it starts off with C, who says:

6 "And who wants to know?"

7 Panorama 3 responds: "Panorama 3."

8 C says: "Panorama B?"

9 P says: "Panorama 3."

10 And C says: "Aha, you need Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic, right?"

11 And you can see the response where P calls him a stupid idiot.

12 And then if you look further down you can see that this happens again. I

13 think in the B/C/S you'll find that on the second page, and in the

14 English you'll find that just underneath where it says:

15 "All right, you're talking fast, man ..."

16 And if you read further down you see where it says:

17 "Slow down, slow down, don't talk too much. You should know

18 better and tell that idiot next time not to mention any names, ranks, or

19 last names."

20 And then if you look further down, you can see where P says:

21 "You're worse than the one who put me through to you. He says

22 the rank, the name, the last name ... the only thing missing was the date

23 of birth, the current location and what his intentions are. You read him

24 the riot act and teach him not to ask who's calling when a person gives

25 his code name. The name is Panorama. You don't ask any additional

Page 2278

1 questions."

2 And this, as you can see in this intercept, is this the kind of

3 thing that you would see when you reviewed the intercepts in terms of how

4 VRS officers, VRS personnel acted in relation to securing their radio

5 communications?

6 A. Well, I can mention some of the features of these report. There

7 are some characteristics in the way this conversation took place.

8 Initially they would ask for the call signal, they would ask to be

9 switched to someone else, and that's what I meant when I was referring to

10 them transferring from a four-wire communication to a two-wire

11 communication. We have a channel where both speakers participate. So

12 technically speaking, we can hear both interlocutors.

13 Now, as for the context of this conversation and failure to meet

14 the rules of confidentiality, all the units and armies had code-names.

15 If the code-name is Panorama, then the commander would be Panorama 1.

16 The commanding officers had tables of codes for identification. They

17 would say, "Can I speak to Panorama 325." Normally these codes would

18 change every ten days or so.

19 A third feature from this report is the failure to abide by these

20 rules, having a big mouth, talking -- saying too much. As we can see in

21 this case it was the operator, but sometimes it so happened that the

22 commanders would do that. It is beyond doubt that the VRS had protected

23 channels, ones that we could not intercept. These communication lines

24 went from the VRS Main Staff to Belgrade and to subordinate corps. We

25 could not intercept the communications taking place along SMC-130.

Page 2279

1 That's true as well. And of course what we saw before was the extent of

2 what we could intercept.

3 Q. Thank you for that, Witness.

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I see that it's time. I'd like

5 to tender this into evidence. I have --

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P278.

9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm asked if that have to be under seal.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, it don't have to be under seal.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

13 Mr. Vanderpuye, could you indicate how long your

14 examination-in-chief will last tomorrow?

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I have a signal here that I have

16 used up three hours and 20 minutes. I think I can wrap it up in about

17 the remaining time, which is another 40 minutes. The reason is I have

18 two areas, two significant areas I'd like to cover with the witness. One

19 has to do with chain of custody, which hopefully will go quickly; and

20 another one has to do with explaining a war-time map and the way the

21 radio communications were intercepted.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

23 I think especially for the accused for preparing the

24 cross-examination this information is important.

25 Witness, I have to remind you again not to contact the parties