1 Thursday, 10 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.
6 May I ask this day for the appearances. I see a new face on the
7 bench for the Prosecution.
8 MS. CHITTENDEN: That's right.
9 Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
10 everyone in the courtroom.
11 My name is Caitlin Chittenden. I'll be questioning the first
12 witness in court today on behalf of the OTP.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
14 MS. CHITTENDEN: So the first witness we have today is
15 Witness 114, who will also be known as the pseudonym PW-047. And he'll
16 be testifying with face distortion, please.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
18 The witness may be brought in.
19 While the witness is being brought in, Madam Registrar could read
20 into the record information related to two exhibits received yesterday.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Exhibits P365B and Exhibit P368B, tendered through
23 Witness PW-048, are marked for identification, pending translation.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Please wait a moment so the
2 windows can be opened again.
3 Good afternoon again, sir.
4 Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is
5 shown to you now.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: PW-047
9 [The witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
11 As you know, there are protective measures in place for you, and
12 the Prosecution has some questions for you.
13 Examination by Ms. Chittenden:
14 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. We met on Tuesday. My name is Caitlin Chittenden, and I'll be
17 asking you some questions today on behalf of the Office of the
19 MS. CHITTENDEN: Please, could we have P405 in e-court.
20 Q. Witness, you'll see something coming up on the screen in front of
21 you now. Please, could you read it to yourself and confirm that your
22 name is written next to "PW-047."
23 A. Yes, the information is correct.
24 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, I would like to tender this into
25 evidence as an exhibit under seal.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
2 MS. CHITTENDEN:
3 Q. Witness, do you recall testifying in the case of Prosecutor
4 versus Popovic on 24 January 2007
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Was your testimony at that time truthful and accurate?
7 A. Yes, it was.
8 Q. Have you had the opportunity to listen to your Popovic testimony
9 again before coming here today?
10 A. Yes, I have, a few days ago.
11 Q. If you were asked the same questions again in court today, would
12 you answer in the same way?
13 A. Yes, in full.
14 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, at this time I would like to offer
15 into evidence the witness's testimony in the Popovic case. It is P403,
16 which should be admitted under seal. And we also have 404, which is the
17 public version.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received, the first under seal.
19 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, at this time I would also like to
20 offer into evidence the four exhibits admitted in conjunction with this
21 witness's testimony in the Popovic case. The first exhibit I would like
22 to offer is P399, under seal. This is the witness's statement to the OTP
23 on 24 January 2007
24 underlying Rule 92 ter statement.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
1 MS. CHITTENDEN: At this time, I would also like to offer into
2 evidence the three intercepts identified by the witness in his Popovic
3 testimony and which were admitted as exhibits through him in that case.
4 For each intercept, there's a handwritten version from the note-book and
5 a typewritten print-out version of the intercept. And if I may, I'll
6 just read out the P numbers for the following three intercepts. The
7 first one is P400A, which is the B/C/S note-book version and the
8 corresponding English translation. Do you want me to read them out in a
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, the whole list, please.
11 MS. CHITTENDEN: And P400B, which is the print-out version. Then
12 we have P401A, the note-book version; P401B, the print-out version;
13 P402A, the note-book version; and finally, P402B, the print-out version.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The exhibits will be received, the confidential
15 ones under seal.
16 MS. CHITTENDEN: That's correct. Thank you very much.
17 Your Honours, I would now like to read a short summary of the
18 witness's testimony in Popovic.
19 Witness, after I read out the summary, I'll just have a few
20 further questions for you.
21 Your Honours, if we may move into private session for a moment,
23 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
18 MS. CHITTENDEN: At the southern site, the witness worked
19 10-day shifts. He described the procedure he used to intercept, record,
20 and transcribe radio communications.
21 When transcribing an intercept, the witness would often consult
22 his colleagues if something on the tape was unclear. Another person
23 would then type out his handwritten transcription of the conversation,
24 after which the typed version of the intercept would be encrypted --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down for the
2 MS. CHITTENDEN: ... would be encrypted and sent out.
3 On a few occasions, the witness typed up his handwritten
4 transcriptions himself, but he did not transmit reports.
5 During his 2007 OTP interview, the witness reviewed photocopies
6 of three handwritten intercepts. For the record, these are the
7 intercepts we just tendered with the witness's statement as P400A, P401A,
8 and P402A. The witness confirmed that he was the operator who
9 intercepted, recorded, and transcribed those three intercepts.
10 The witness also reviewed three typewritten print-outs of the
11 intercepts. For the record, these are the intercepts we just tendered as
12 Exhibits 400B, 401B, and 402B. The witness confirmed that those
13 print-outs contained the same conversations as the three intercepts he
14 previously confirmed taking by hand.
15 The witness noted that in one of his intercepts, which is
16 Exhibit P401A, taken at 949 hours on 20 July 1995, he wrote in the
17 note-book that Cerovic, one of the speakers, was a colonel or
18 lieutenant-colonel, but in the print-out version of this intercept
19 Cerovic is identified as a colonel.
20 The witness does not specifically recall whether he made that
21 change in consultation with his colleagues or whether the typist made the
22 change alone.
23 The witness stated that while there are one or two other minor
24 differences between the handwritten and the typed versions, none of those
25 differences changes the meaning of the intercept.
1 That concludes my summary.
2 Your Honours, I now have a few questions to ask the witness, if I
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Go ahead, please.
5 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But please speak slowly.
7 MS. CHITTENDEN:
8 Q. Witness, I would like to show you a booklet of three intercepts
9 that we've compiled. For the record, these are P400A and B, P401A and B,
10 and P402A and B.
11 MS. CHITTENDEN: Please, could I ask for the assistance of the
12 Court Usher just to hand this book to the witness.
13 Q. Witness, can you take a moment to look through this booklet, and
14 let me know whether you recognise your handwriting on the handwritten
15 versions of these intercepts.
16 A. Yes, this is my handwriting.
17 Q. Witness, were you the operator who recorded and transcribed these
18 three intercepted conversations?
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. Did you review these three intercepts before you testified in the
21 Popovic case?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you review them again before your testimony today?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Have you also recently reviewed the original note-books
1 containing those three intercepts?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And do the copies of those three intercepts that you have in the
4 booklet conform to the original note-books that you reviewed?
5 A. Yes, they do.
6 Q. Witness, about how long after you intercepted and recorded a
7 conversation on the tape would you transcribe that conversation into the
9 A. We would take down shorter intercepts immediately and copied them
10 into note-books, unless there was another conversation on the same
11 frequency. If they followed each other closely, we would record both.
12 And once all activity ceased on that particular channel, we would then
13 note down both conversations into our note-books.
14 Q. Would you say that you recorded into the note-books the
15 conversation within 24 hours, say?
16 A. Yes. Some of them we even recorded in the note-books
17 immediately. Let me clarify. If there was no further activity on that
18 same frequency, we would take the tape, immediately listen to it, and
19 note it down into the note-books.
20 Q. So with respect to the three intercepts in the booklet in front
21 of you that you intercepted on 17, 20, and 22 July, can you attest to the
22 Trial Chamber that you transcribed these conversations into the
23 note-books within 24 hours of recording them?
24 A. Yes, I can.
25 Q. And were the original note-books that you inspected with me on
1 Tuesday the same original note-books that you recorded these
2 conversations in during July 1995?
3 A. Yes, they are.
4 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, I also have the three original
5 note-books available with me in the courtroom today, should Your Honours
6 or the accused wish to inspect them.
7 Q. Witness, can you please turn to tab 2 in the booklet in front of
9 MS. CHITTENDEN: And this is Exhibit P401A, if we can also have
10 that in e-court, please.
11 Q. Witness, if you can turn to the handwritten version, or you can
12 look on the screen in front of you, you will see underneath
13 "Colonel Cerovic" is written "Lieutenant-Colonel "in brackets. Can you
14 tell the Trial Chamber why you wrote this in brackets in this instance?
15 A. Because once listening to a tape, you write things down
16 immediately, but sometimes frequency modulations can slightly vary and it
17 can make you doubtful as to whether what was uttered was
18 "lieutenant-colonel" or "colonel," since the words are rather similar.
19 However, from our previous knowledge, we knew that this was
20 Colonel Cerovic, but we always left room for uncertainty. We usually did
21 not write things down unless we were certain.
22 Q. But, Witness, at the time that you were listening to the
23 recording and transcribing it, did you -- does this mean that you didn't
24 hear the rank of Cerovic clearly at the time you were transcribing?
25 A. One could say so. We couldn't hear the whole of the conversation
1 completely clearly. We listened to two interlocutors, and sometimes they
2 overlapped. And on occasion, you cannot hear things the best way
3 possible. They didn't necessarily communicate clearly. For example, in
4 this conversation, you can hear one of the people saying, Hello, sir, and
5 then it is immediately followed by something which resembled either,
6 Colonel, or, Lieutenant-colonel.
7 Q. But, Witness, did you ever write something down of which you were
8 uncertain without recording it in some way?
9 A. Well, we can't say that we weren't certain about this, but we did
10 have a slight reservation. The audiotape has to be reflected as
11 accurately as possible on paper, but still there is a small hedge that
12 you have to allow for, because it is then forwarded to other instances
13 and they can verify that. In this case, we did note down that it was
14 Colonel Cerovic, but just in case we put another thing in brackets.
15 However, we always wrote down only what we could hear, and the words on
16 paper reflect what we could hear on the tapes.
17 Q. And is this generally how you would denote something you were
18 uncertain of, by using brackets?
19 A. I don't understand. What do you mean when you say "generally"?
20 Q. If when you were listening to a recording of a conversation, if
21 you weren't certain of what you heard, would you put brackets around what
22 you think it was?
23 A. If we couldn't hear them, we would place three dots, for the most
24 part. If we were uncertain, then we inserted brackets.
25 Q. And if you're uncertain of something, did you also consult your
2 A. Yes, I did. All of the work was done in a single room, where we
3 worked jointly, more or less. We would work together while listening to
4 the tapes and noting down. We also always required assistance from
5 either our commander or another work-mate who happened to be there at the
7 Q. Witness, could you please now turn over a couple of pages in that
8 book, still behind tab 2.
9 MS. CHITTENDEN: In e-court, it's P401B, please.
10 Q. You can also look at it on the screen. So this is the print-out
11 version, 401B.
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. CHITTENDEN: If we can also have that in e-court, please.
14 Thank you. And it should have a corresponding English. Thank you.
15 Q. Witness, in your 2007 statement, you noted that in this printed
16 version of the intercept which we're looking at now, Cerovic is
17 identified as a colonel. But as we've just seen and talked about, in the
18 handwritten version Cerovic is identified as either a colonel or a
20 Witness, do you have any explanation as to why there is this
21 difference between the printed and the handwritten versions?
22 A. When transcription is being done of an audio-recording, you write
23 things down the way you hear them. However, in the next phase it had to
24 be typed up and sent following encryption. The principal operator or the
25 commander, whomever happened to be on duty that day, typed up the final
2 Colonel Cerovic was someone we had known from before, so the
3 commander or the operator inserted the word "Colonel." They were
4 familiar with it, and they knew whether a person was a colonel or a
5 lieutenant-colonel, and this is why in this report it is stated that he
6 was a colonel.
7 Q. But, Witness, did you engage in any analysis or interpretation of
8 intercepts yourself?
9 A. What do you mean, "analysis or interpretation"? We wrote them
10 down, and then we would read it out loud to the commander or the operator
11 while they were typing it up and encrypting it. We used Paket
12 communication to send it on to our command.
13 Q. So, Witness, you wrote down only what you heard?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
18 Witness, you know now Mr. Tolimir has the right to cross-examine
20 Mr. Tolimir.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 May God's peace be with this house.
23 I would like to greet the witness and everybody else in the
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, in your statement --
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the statement please be shown
3 on the screen. The number is P399.
4 Could we please see page 2. I'm interested in paragraph 4.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You see what you stated in item 4? In item 4, you stated that
7 with a group which is mentioned in here, from the beginning of 1995 to
8 October 1995, you left the unit for health reasons, but you did not state
9 whether before 1995 you worked with that group.
10 A. No, I didn't work with that group until 1995.
11 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you also stated that you were sent
12 to serve in the Unit for Anti-Electronic Activities?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who was it who sent you to serve in that unit? Thank you.
15 A. In the 1992, for health reasons I left the combat units of the
16 BiH Army. Towards the end of 1994 and the beginning of 1995, the
17 military structures engaged me. They asked me to join that unit; to be
18 more precise, to the element of that unit that was deployed on
20 Q. Thank you. Did you have the necessary qualifications to carry
21 out the tasks required from you in that unit? Thank you.
22 A. Those are --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you answer, Ms. Chittenden.
24 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 I'd just like to request a redaction at line 17, just a location
1 where the witness was.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be done.
3 MS. CHITTENDEN: And, sorry, I also have another request.
4 I think it's line 13. "1995" should be "1992." Sorry, page 13, lines 5
5 to 6. It should be -- sorry.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This should be perhaps -- this should be
7 clarified perhaps again during the re-examination. I don't know if that
8 was a mistake by translation or something else.
9 MS. CHITTENDEN: I beg your pardon, it's my mistake. It should
10 be 1995.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay, we leave it like this, and the other line
12 will be --
13 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you. Thanks.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Line 16 on page 13 will be redacted.
15 Sorry for interrupting you, sir. Do you recall the question, the
16 last question? Then please give an answer.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recall the question. When I
18 arrived at the southern site, I did not have the necessary
19 qualifications. However, what we did mostly boiled down to the recording
20 of conversations and their transcribing. I was not familiar with the
21 technical part of the job, but I had enough knowledge to be able to
22 record conversations and transcribe them.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. While you were waiting to be deployed in that unit, did you
25 undergo some intelligence and technical preparations which prepared you
1 for work in that unit?
2 A. No intelligence education, and security education, that was
3 required before you entered a unit of that kind.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and Mr. Tolimir not overlap,
5 please, and could Mr. Tolimir please repeat his last question.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Microphone.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Sir, in paragraph 5 of your statement, that you received the
9 necessary information from the previous shift and from your commander; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did that information concern what happened on the ground or did
13 it concern only the characteristics of the radio network that you worked
15 A. What do you mean by the events on the ground?
16 Q. You say:
17 "The commander of the previous shift provided us with the
18 necessary information; for example, the frequencies used by the VRS."
19 You mentioned only the frequencies. That's why I'm asking you
20 whether they only provided you with the information about the frequencies
21 on the radio frequencies, or did they provide you with the information
22 about the activities on the front-line?
23 A. They provided us with the information on the --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Tolimir please slow down.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please slow down and don't overlap. Just wait,
1 because the interpreters need a certain time to finish the translation.
2 Now, please, your answer.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most commonly, that was information
4 about the currently active frequencies, the persons who were intercepted
5 on those frequencies, the units working on those frequencies, and things
6 like that. We did not receive much information from the front-line
7 unless there were some activities going on. In that case, we would be
8 informed about such activities going on in certain areas, and the
9 frequencies that covered those areas had already been recorded and noted
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. Could you please tell us, how long did it take you to note a
13 conversation which lasted, for example, three or five minutes? Usually,
14 conversations take less than five minutes. Thank you.
15 A. Well, you're talking about longer conversations. Usually, the
16 conversations were short, if my memory serves me well. I can't tell you
17 how long it took me to transcribe, but let's say that a minute or
18 two-minute-long conversation, I'm not 100 per cent sure, but it took me
19 about 10 to 15 minutes, I would say.
20 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us whether in 10 or 15 minutes
21 everything was completed and whether the conversation, the transcribed
22 conversation, was ready to be sent off?
23 A. It depended on the characteristics of the conversation. There
24 were shorter conversations that lasted a minute or two. As for the
25 priority of sending the transcribed conversations, that was decided by
1 the unit commander. If the conversation that was recorded was very
2 important, it was urgently transcribed and sent off.
3 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, how long were your shifts
4 over one day, over 24 hours?
5 A. An active shift lasted 24 hours. You monitored frequencies over
6 24 hours, and then depending on the activities of that frequency, you
7 worked for 24 hours. There were also night shifts, because during the
8 day everybody was active, and during the night, there were people who
9 were on duty who monitored certain frequencies if there were activities
10 on such frequencies.
11 Q. Thank you. I asked you: How long were you actively engaged and
12 worked on the processing of conversations? I didn't ask you about duty
13 service. I asked you about your active service.
14 A. It depended on the activity on certain frequencies. That was
15 what dictated our shifts.
16 Q. Thank you. And in examination-in-chief, you said to the
17 Prosecutor that the conversations that are compiled in the file were
18 typed up over a period of 24 hours; is that correct?
19 A. As far as I understood the question, the question was whether a
20 conversation was usually typed up within the next 24 hours. We usually
21 typed them up immediately.
22 Q. So you typed them up immediately and handed them over to your
23 commander? Thank you.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. You said that you did not type and code the
2 A. Sometimes the operators did type the conversations up if they
3 were short. I did it also a couple of times. But we did not have access
4 to the code book. There were some cases when we typed up some shorter
5 conversations if the main operator or the commander were absent. In
6 their absence, we did it, but that wasn't a common occurrence.
7 Q. Thank you. Witness, you say when somebody else typed up your
8 handwritten notes, did you then collate what you wrote in your hand and
9 what somebody else subsequently typed up?
10 A. No, I don't think so.
11 Q. Did you have to sign it?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Thank you. Let us now look at paragraph 6. We see it now.
14 Under number 6 in your statement, you're talking about the procedures
15 that you used when intercepting. Do you see it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you read it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If something was not clear on the tape or if you became aware of
20 a mistake that you had made, would you then cross out that word, would
21 you replace it by a new word, or would you leave the word that you
22 originally noted?
23 A. We mostly used ballpoint pen, so we had to either cross the wrong
24 word or we did not even record it if we were not absolutely certain that
25 we had heard properly. If we were not certain that we heard properly,
1 then we put the relevant word in brackets or we would just put three dots
2 instead of any word that we were not sure of.
3 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you stated that you did not
4 remember whether you knew anything about coding; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. My question is this: Is it possible that you do not remember
7 that you had any necessary knowledge or that you coded anything, and
8 still that you do remember all the conversations that the Prosecutor
9 asked you about on examination-in-chief?
10 A. I did not have any knowledge that would allow me to code the
11 reports. I don't remember ever having sent a single report.
12 Q. This may be a mistake. In the statement, it says:
13 "I don't recall having knowledge required for coding."
14 A. I don't remember that I ever coded any document.
15 Q. Well, I will read your statement back to you:
16 "I don't remember whether I had any knowledge relative to
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So you do not remember that you had knowledge, not that you
21 A. Well, it may be down to the style. In any case, nobody but the
22 commander and the principal operator had access to the coding and the
23 code book.
24 Q. Thank you. Were you asked to subsequently collate your
25 transcripts with the coded text?
1 A. No. In the most number of cases, the author of the text actually
2 dictated his own text to the commander or to the main operator. We were
3 there. We had an opportunity to observe what was being typed up. We
4 were not asked to collate the two texts.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please see the third
6 page of the statement in the Serbian language, and the English page that
7 we see now can remain on the screen. We don't need to change that.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. In paragraph 10, in the last sentence, you say -- the following
10 page is also in the English language, lines 7, 8, and 10 in paragraph 10:
11 "While there are one or two other minor differences between the
12 handwritten and typed versions, none of those differences change the
13 meaning of the intercept."
14 My question: Could you explain to the Trial Chamber and leave it
15 to the Trial Chamber to decide whether there are differences and whether
16 they change anything?
17 A. As far as I can remember, in these two or three reports, the
18 information concerned Cerovic and whether he was colonel or
19 lieutenant-colonel. In the handwritten version, it says "Colonel" or
20 "Lieutenant-Colonel" in brackets. And as far as I can remember, in the
21 typed-up material, the word is "Colonel."
22 And I also noticed another discrepancy, if I may put it that way.
23 In the place where the report refers to Krstic, X, and commander, the
24 operator put a question mark next to the word "Mladic." In our report,
25 we put it in brackets because we were familiar with the voice modulation,
1 and from the context we could conclude that the person was, indeed,
2 Commander Mladic.
3 Q. And what is in the handwritten version? Thank you.
4 A. Only "Mladic" without any question marks.
5 Q. Thank you. What other discrepancies have you noticed? You're
6 talking about one or two minor differences?
7 A. In document 2, it says "Colonel Cerovic," and then in brackets
8 "Or Lieutenant-Colonel." In the printed version, it says
9 "Colonel Cerovic."
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we scroll up the
11 English version of the statement, and the Serbian version of the
12 statement as well. Thank you.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. On the screen, we now see that you signed only the English
15 version of the statement; is that correct?
16 A. I signed whatever they gave me to sign.
17 Q. Thank you. Was that statement typed up in your presence, while
18 you were being interviewed? Was the typist in the room or was it typed
19 up subsequently?
20 A. Are we talking about the 2007 case?
21 Q. Thank you. You provided a statement on the 21st --
22 A. 2007?
23 Q. Yes, 2007, and you can see it on the first page.
24 A. I can see that, but I can't remember.
25 Q. You provided it to Mr. Thayer and Elderkin, and the interpreter
1 was a woman, a Zlata?
2 A. As far as I can remember, I was given this statement to review it
3 and to sign it, and I did.
4 Q. Thank you. Can we see your signature on the Serbian version or
5 not, and whether you received it at the interview or not, and how long
6 did it take to interview you?
7 A. The January 2007 interview lasted for a single day before my
8 evidence in the Popovic case.
9 Q. Thank you. How many days did you spend at the Tribunal prior to
11 A. One day.
12 Q. Did anyone speak to you before that?
13 A. Before what?
14 Q. Before you arrived in The Hague. Did any Tribunal
15 representatives speak to you in the federation?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Please answer this: The statement you signed in English and in
18 Serbian, were they both typed by two typists in your presence, while you
19 were giving it, or was only the interpreter there?
20 A. I don't know whether they typed it up then. I only know I read
21 it and confirmed its contents, and then I signed it.
22 Q. Were you able to read it immediately following the interview or
23 did you wait for it to be typed up?
24 A. Well, after it was typed up.
25 Q. So it wasn't during the interview?
1 A. I don't remember. I can't recall whether it was during the
2 interview or immediately following it.
3 Q. Thank you. In what language was the version you signed read back
4 to you?
5 A. In Bosnian.
6 Q. So it was interpreted from English into Bosnian; correct?
7 A. It was translated into Bosnian, and as far as I recall, I signed
8 it in English and in Bosnian. It was read back to me.
9 Q. Since you signed it after it was read back to you, did you read
10 the text yourself or did you read the English version?
11 A. I don't speak English, and I signed the Bosnian version.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I have no
13 further questions of this witness.
14 I would like to thank the witness for having provided answers
15 here. I wish I was safe journey back, and God bless you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
17 Ms. Chittenden, do you have re-examination?
18 MS. CHITTENDEN: No, thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You will be pleased to hear that this concludes
20 your examination, the evidence for today. Thank you very much for your
21 attendance here in The Hague
22 your home, to your normal activities. And the Chamber would like to
23 thank you.
24 The Court Officer will assist you. First, we have to close the
25 screens again for your safety.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MS. CHITTENDEN: May I please be excused, Your Honours?
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. Have a nice day.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Mr. Vanderpuye.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is the next witness ready?
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: He's ready, yes.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then he should be brought in.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Could you please wait for a
14 moment and stand.
15 Good afternoon, sir, again.
16 Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is
17 shown to you now.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
19 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
20 and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: PW-041
22 [The witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You know protective measures are in place for you
1 again, and first Mr. Vanderpuye has some questions for you.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to
3 you, Your Honours.
4 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. As you know, my name is
6 Kweku Vanderpuye, and I'm going to ask you just a few questions in
7 relation to your evidence today.
8 I just want to remind you to try and keep your voice up, and
9 speak a little bit slowly, and allow some pause between questions and
10 answers, so that the interpreters have a chance to translate accurately
11 what you say, so that everyone can understand each other.
12 Witness, do you recall having testified in the case of Prosecutor
13 against Vujadin Popovic on 12 December 2006
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. And was your testimony truthful?
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review your testimony or listen to
18 your testimony before appearing in court today?
19 A. I have.
20 Q. Having done that, does your testimony fairly and accurately
21 reflect what you would say if you were to be examined here today in this
23 A. Yes, it does.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, let me just pause for a moment.
25 I forgot something. Could I have the witness please shown P393.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was waiting for this.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE:
3 Q. Please take a look at this sheet. See if you recognise your
4 name. And without telling us -- without saying your name, can you
5 confirm that you're the person named in relation to PW-041?
6 A. Yes, I can.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Having done that, Mr. President, I
8 would like to offer into evidence P393.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd also like to offer into evidence at this
11 time P391 and P392.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received as well, and the first
13 under seal.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Witness, do you recall having given a statement to the Office of
16 the Prosecutor that was dated 16 November 1999?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. And have you had an opportunity to review that statement before
19 testifying here today?
20 A. Yes, I have.
21 Q. And do you stand by that statement? Was it truthful and accurate
22 as you gave it?
23 A. Of course.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to offer into
25 evidence at this time the statement. It's P372.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: And I would also like to offer into evidence --
3 actually, I'll proceed and I'll make an application to offer into
4 evidence the intercepts in just a moment.
5 Mr. President, I have a very brief summary in relation to the
6 witness's evidence from the Popovic case that I'd like to read into the
8 The witness adopted his OTP statement of 16 November 1999, which
9 provided in substance as follows.
10 If we could go into private session, please.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
12 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
3 The witness worked at the northern facility throughout the rest
4 of the war, following the orders and protocols of his command in the
5 interception process. These procedures included scanning for and
6 listening to radio communications, taping them, and then transcribing
7 them manually into note-books. The transcription process sometimes
8 required repeatedly replaying recorded conversations. Once a
9 transcription was complete, the note-book entries were typed into a
10 computer and encrypted. On occasion, the witness dictated his note-book
11 entries to a typist, thus verifying its accuracy. The witness denoted
12 portions of conversations that were inaudible by inserting ellipses into
13 the relevant passages. In January 1996, the witness was demobilised.
14 Per his testimony, the witness confirmed having obtained and
15 transcribed 14 specific intercepts from July 1995.
16 The witness noted that while he did not receive formal training
17 as a member of the Interception Unit at the northern site, in addition to
18 his JNA training which preceded his assignment there, he also received a
19 Class B amateur radio certification in 1994.
20 The witness recalled that there were generally two note-books in
21 circulation during a shift, one used for current conversations and one to
22 be used as needed. In addition, at least four UHER tape machines were
23 available and in use in July 1995.
24 The witness confirmed that during the interception process,
25 transcribed conversations were reviewed as many as 20 times, if
1 necessary, and then taken to a typist, where they were typed up,
2 encrypted, and sent to the unit's command. He observed that generally
3 the participants in the intercepted conversations tended to introduce
4 themselves, almost as a standard practice. Sometimes their voices could
5 be recognised with certainty. However, where participants or passages in
6 the intercepted conversations could not be determined with 100 per cent
7 certainty, question marks or parentheses were used to reflect this. In
8 addition, where the participants could not be determined, an X or Y would
9 be used.
10 That concludes my summary, and I have just a few additional
12 I would like to have this booklet handed over to the witness so
13 he can take a look at it.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE:
16 Q. Witness, you have a booklet there of some 19 intercepts. Let me
17 ask you: Were you shown this booklet prior to having testified here
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review the handwritten note-book
21 transcriptions that are contained in it?
22 A. Yes, I have.
23 Q. And in addition to that, did you have an opportunity -- a
24 previous opportunity to review the original note-books from which those
25 photocopies of the handwritten transcriptions were taken?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Can you confirm that the 19 intercepts that are contained in the
3 booklet were written down by you?
4 A. Yes, I can.
5 Q. And were they transcribed by you during the course and scope of
6 your duties and responsibilities as an intercept operator on or about the
7 date that the conversations actually occurred?
8 A. Yes, they were.
9 Q. Have you had an opportunity to compare the handwritten
10 intercepts -- your handwritten transcriptions against certain print-out
11 or printed-out transcriptions?
12 A. Yes, I have.
13 Q. And can you confirm that the printed-out transcriptions in the
14 booklet that you have there of 19 intercepts correspond to the
15 handwritten entries that you made in the note-books?
16 A. Yes, I can.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: At this time, Mr. President, I would offer into
18 evidence all 19 intercepts, 14 of which came in through the witness's
19 prior testimony and 5 of which are new. I can give you the numbers of
20 them, if that would be helpful.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please indicate and, for the record,
22 tell the first and the last number of this package of transcripts.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, not transcripts, but exhibits.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. The exhibits are P373A and B through P385.
1 All right. And then I have -- no, through P386. I'm sorry. And then I
2 have P394 through P398.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received, but I would like to note
4 that P269D is already an exhibit admitted through another witness on the
5 31st of May.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, that's right, and I think also P386 seems
7 to have another number as well, as P0015.1 and .2. I think those came in
8 pursuant to a 92 quater application, but I see here it also has been
9 pre-marked as P386. So just so the record is clear that they're one and
10 the same, I think.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Please carry on.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Witness, do you have a present recollection of the 19 intercepts
14 that are contained in the booklet before you?
15 A. Well, not necessarily. It was a long time ago.
16 Q. What I'd like to ask you about is some of the -- a little bit
17 about the process of interception as occurred in the northern facility.
18 Now, per your prior statement, you indicated that part of the job
19 of interception required that you scan certain frequencies. Can you tell
20 us who determined what frequencies were scanned by the operators?
21 A. The operators searched by way of radio-relay equipment, the
22 800 sets. This is what we had. And we also had an FM 200.
23 Q. And were you told what specific range of frequencies or specific
24 frequencies to search for, or was it simply up to the operators to
25 determine what they would be searching for?
1 A. We received instructions about what directions to take, in terms
2 of turning our antennae in that direction, and then after that it was
3 easy to find a channel or a frequency.
4 Q. And without giving us any names, can you tell us whom you
5 received these instructions from? Would it be a squad commander or a
6 platoon commander or company commander?
7 A. We received instructions from our squad commander, who probably
8 received his commands from the command.
9 Q. In respect of the process of intercepting, was that overseen by
11 A. Of course it was. The squad commander was always with us. He
12 even assisted at times.
13 Q. And did the squad commander review entries that you made in the
14 note-books or that the operators made in the note-books?
15 A. He frequently did, but he wasn't physically present at all times
16 when we did so.
17 Q. As an intercept operator, from your statement, you didn't receive
18 any formal training on how to do your job, but did you receive any
19 training in general as to how to do it?
20 A. We all learned as we went. The only formal training was the
21 Ham Radio classification I received. As for the rest, we gained
22 experience under our commander as we went along.
23 Q. Do you know if any of the other operators that you worked with
24 also had earned Ham Radio certifications?
25 A. Yes, quite a few of them. At the beginning of the war, most of
1 my work-mates had been Ham Radio enthusiasts. We all worked together,
2 and we joined the unit to do our part.
3 Q. And in terms of the manual transcription, that is, the writing
4 down of these conversations into the note-book, once that was completed
5 you said that it was taken to a typist. Do you know what the typist did
6 with that material?
7 A. He would take our handwritten transcripts, and this person was a
8 communications person who would type things up and encrypt the
9 conversations. Then all that would be sent by way of Paket communication
10 to the command.
11 Q. Was anybody -- or, that is, any operator permitted to type and
12 encrypt intercepted communications and send them over to the command, or
13 was that limited in some way?
14 A. In my squad, we had a designated person who worked on that. He
15 had undergone special training for that. We weren't familiar with the
16 encryption systems.
17 Q. In the course of transcribing an intercept, did you on occasion
18 work with other members of your unit in order to determine what can be
19 heard on a tape?
20 A. Yes, I did. In situations in which, for example, I could not
21 make out a word in a sentence, then I asked for their assistance. I also
22 asked for their assistance in terms of deciding who the interlocutors
23 are, since by that time we were able to recognise most of them by the
24 tone of their voices.
25 Q. And were you permitted, as an operator, to write down a
1 participant or interlocutor's name into the intercept based solely upon
2 recognising that speaker's voice?
3 A. Could you please rephrase your question?
4 Q. Were you allowed to write down a person's name as a speaker in a
5 definitive sense based solely upon your recognition of the tone of their
6 voice or their manner of speaking?
7 A. Yes, but frequently they also introduced themselves at the
8 opening, which was further corroboration.
9 Q. And if you recognised a person's voice, would you denote that in
10 the intercept in some way, as distinguished from when a person is
11 introduced or when their name was actually mentioned in the recording?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So can you tell us how it's possible to tell the difference
14 between whether or not a person's name was spoken during an intercept,
15 intercepted communication, or whether or not you simply -- an intercept
16 operator simply recognised their name? Is there a way to tell the
17 difference in -- in what's written down in the note-book?
18 A. In some conversations, you can see for yourself that they
19 introduced themselves, and then in others it is absent. However, we
20 listened to them on a daily basis, and for the most part we didn't need
21 their introductions. We immediately knew who they were.
22 Q. And would you write that down in the print-out or you wouldn't
23 write that down at all?
24 A. As far as I know, we did not.
25 Q. Okay. Now, in some instances a name can appear as a speaker in a
1 print-out, although the person's name isn't mentioned in the text of the
2 conversation. Is that the case or would that be the case if a person's
3 name were spoken before the tape-recorder were turned on?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you explain that to the Trial Chamber, how that could occur?
6 A. At the beginning of a conversation, it could happen that those at
7 the switchboard who had to put people through would be contacted, and
8 people required them to be put through to a certain person, and at the
9 very outset such people would introduce themselves. This first, initial
10 part of the conversation usually did not have anything of particular
11 interest. We listened to the conversations, themselves. However, a
12 recording is made of the totality of a conversation, whereas I only noted
13 down those portions which I believed were interesting.
14 Q. And so would it be the case that in certain conversations that
15 you noted down, the speaker may not be referred to expressly in the
16 conversation, even if you noted down their name as being a participant?
17 A. It had to be introduced at the beginning of the conversation or I
18 had to recognise the voice. I didn't do it in any random way,
20 Q. And when that occurred, did you note down the person's name at
21 the time that you listened to the conversation on any piece of paper, or
22 in the note-book, or any place else before you actually later did the
23 transcription from the tape?
24 A. Well, you see, any conversation was recorded from the very
25 beginning, and then when we rewound the tape, we introduced the
1 participants as we recognised them.
2 Q. Perhaps my question was a little unclear. Let me try a different
4 When you had a conversation where the person's name isn't
5 mentioned and you don't recognise the voice, but the person was
6 introduced before you turned on the tape-recorder, did you note down that
7 name at the time that you heard it or did you note it down at some other
9 A. If I did not hear the name, I would use an X/Y designation. If I
10 didn't recognise the participant or if the participant wasn't introduced,
11 there was no place for speculation there. What you heard is what you
13 Q. All right. I'm going to try one more time. When you recorded a
14 conversation and the introduction was not recorded, did you write down
15 the person who was introduced at the time you turned on the recorder or
16 did you write it down at some point later?
17 A. Well, believe me, I'm not able to answer your question. I don't
18 know. There are very few and far between situations like that. I really
19 don't know.
20 Q. Well, when you listen to a tape-recorder and the person wasn't
21 introduced, how did you know who was speaking if they introduced
22 themselves and you didn't record it?
23 A. I apologise. I believe that -- I still don't understand your
24 question. I'm not sure what you're asking me.
25 Q. Did you sometimes not get the person's name on the tape-recorder
1 before you started taping? Let's start there.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And when you didn't get the person's name on the tape-recorder
4 and you later transcribed what was on the tape-recorder, did you make a
5 note at the time that you turn on the tape-recorder who was speaking so
6 that you can recall later who is on the recording?
7 A. Okay. When a conversation started and when we started recording,
8 at that same moment we were duty-bound to record the time, the frequency,
9 and the participants in the conversation, and the UHER equipments were
10 reset back to zero to indicate when the conversation started. That's
11 what we did.
12 Q. And did you write down the participants of the conversation at
13 that time?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is that how you were able to recall who the participants were for
16 a given conversation when you later transcribed it?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. From that piece of paper, is that what's transferred and written
19 into the note-books; frequency, date, time, participants, and so on?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. And that's what's -- is that what's also given over to the typist
22 and put in the typed-out version of those intercepts?
23 A. The typist received my note-book. When my shift was over, I
24 handed the note-book over to him, unless there was an urgency and
25 something needed to be typed before my shift was over.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is that perhaps a convenient time for the first
4 break? Then you have the opportunity to think about certain --
5 rephrasing of some questions to make something more clear.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: If there are some questions you'd like me to
7 ask. I really only have one more or two more questions that I think --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We can do it after the break.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to mention, very shortly, we have
11 received several documents you tendered, but three of them don't have an
12 English translation yet. These are P375B, P382B, and P398B. These three
13 will only be marked for identification, pending translation.
14 We must have the first break now, on technical reasons, and we
15 will adjourn until quarter past 4.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Witness, I was asking you about the piece of paper that you write
21 down certain information on before you actually transcribe a conversation
22 into your note-book. Once you've transcribed -- or once you've put the
23 information on the piece of paper into your note-book, what happens to
24 the piece of paper?
25 A. We would leave such papers aside. The commander was there. I
1 don't know what happened to them. But as far as I'm concerned, I would
2 usually note everything in my note-book immediately.
3 Q. Now, in your packet of 19 intercepts here, there are a couple of
4 instances in which a Tolimir is mentioned by name; not as a speaker,
5 per se, but is in the intercept, itself. Do you know whether or not or
6 can you recall whether or not those entries concerning Tolimir refer to
7 General Tolimir of the VRS?
8 A. [No interpretation]
9 Q. Sorry, the answer wasn't recorded on the record. Would you
10 repeat it, please?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show you --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Vanderpuye.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have a --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What about your microphone?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: It won't go on. It's flashing -- all right.
17 Thank you, Mr. President.
18 If I could have, please, in e-court -- I'd like to show the
19 witness P395. I believe it's tab 11 in the booklet. It will be 395A,
20 I think is the handwritten. This should be -- yes, this is an intercept
21 that is dated 18 July, and the time is 1831.
22 Q. In this particular conversation, you can see that there's a
23 reference to Tolimir, and it's probably about the fifth line down or the
24 fifth entry down, which reads that:
25 "He is the first on the list, that the approval came from Tolimir
1 and they will try tomorrow or most likely the day after tomorrow."
2 Do you see that in the handwritten version?
3 A. Yes, I can see it.
4 Q. And the reference to Tolimir in this case, would that be
5 something that you would have heard on the tape, as opposed to something
6 that you would have deduced from the nature of the conversation?
7 A. This was taken from the tape. I didn't deduce this. We never
8 deduced anything. What we heard on the tape was subsequently
10 Q. I'd like to show you P384, please, and that should be tab 14 in
11 this packet of 19 intercepts. And I'd like to show you A, P34A, that's
12 in the packet again -- P384A.
13 Okay, I think we have it up on the screen.
14 This is an intercept that's dated 21st July 1995. It's at 1030.
15 And in the English version, it looks about 10 lines from the bottom of
16 the screen, you can see it reads:
17 "But he has a meeting scheduled with our side and the military
18 side from that hole down there."
19 "D," Djurcic in this case, says: "Yes, yes.
20 "L," Lelek: "But General Tolimir told me this morning not to let
21 anyone go up there."
22 Further down you can see:
23 "And when did General Tolimir tell you this?" And repeats
24 General Tolimir's name one more time after that.
25 Would that be also something that you would have heard
1 definitively on the tape as opposed to something you might have or could
2 have deduced from the nature of the conversation?
3 Just so that you know, the references to Tolimir can be found at
4 the bottom of the page ending 1 -- 513 in B/C/S, and in the middle of --
5 the top and the middle of the page, of the following, of the following
6 page, 514.
7 A. Again, this is another conversation from a tape.
8 Q. I just want to refer you, if I can, to 513, which is still on the
9 screen here, where you have "Lelek," and then written in parentheses you
10 have what appears to be "Domar." And then following that you have
11 "Puk Djurcic." Can you tell us why you have "Domar" written in
13 A. The first participant, Lelek, and in brackets this is the name
14 for the switchboard.
15 Q. And was that something mentioned in the tape-recording or is that
16 some other information that you had?
17 A. There's no other source. The recording on the tape is the only
18 source we relied on.
19 Q. Now, in terms of performing your job as an intercept operator,
20 were certain aids made available to you, such as information from your
21 commanders, maps, code-names, things of that nature?
22 A. Yes, we had maps, our commander provided us with information, and
23 things like that.
24 Q. And were the maps pertinent to locations, people, frequencies,
25 things of that nature? Can you tell us what they were -- what they
1 concerned, if you can remember?
2 A. What I can remember is the fact that the maps depicted the names
3 of the switchboards.
4 Q. And were you able to use those or rely on those in transcribing
5 intercepts or writing down certain information concerning those
7 A. They didn't mean much to me, particularly. When I transcribed my
8 conversations, I just transcribed my conversations. Those maps were much
9 more important for my commander. In my case, I tried to make sure that I
10 transcribed the conversations that I heard as accurately as I heard them.
11 Q. How important was it that your transcriptions accurately
12 reflected what was on the tape?
13 A. That was the most important thing. We tried very hard to make
14 those transcripts as accurate as possible.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Witness.
16 Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
18 Mr. Tolimir, do you have questions for this witness?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 I would like to greet everybody once again, and I would like to
21 greet the witness.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, since we speak the same language, I would
24 kindly ask you to make a five-second pause after the end of my question
25 to avoid overlapping.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
2 Exhibit P372, P372. This is the statement provided by the witness to the
3 OTP on the 16th of November, 1999.
4 Q. My question is this: Before the 16th of November, were you in
5 touch with anybody from the OTP and from this Tribunal? Thank you.
6 A. Can I now start answering?
7 Q. Yes, thank you. After I say, Thank you, you can start answering.
8 A. Do you mean before I provided my statement, whether I had any
9 contacts with anybody from the Tribunal? Is that what you're asking me?
10 Q. Yes, exactly. Thank you.
11 A. I don't remember ever having been in touch with anybody before I
12 provided my statement.
13 Q. And what about after you provided the statement, did you have any
14 contacts with the personnel of the Tribunal?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber when and where? Thank you.
17 A. I don't know the date, but I know that we were invited to come to
18 the command of the 2nd Corps in Tuzla
19 Tribunal was there to talk to us.
20 Q. Could you please tell us who invited you and whether you were
21 there all together or just you, yourself? Thank you.
22 A. I can't tell you who invited me because I don't remember.
23 Several people had been invited, and while I provided my statement, I was
24 on my own in the room together with the official of the Tribunal.
25 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, when was that, what year
1 and what month? Thank you.
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. Thank you. So that was after the testimony provided on the
4 16th of November, 1999, and before your appearance in court today?
5 A. As far as I can remember, I did not testify in 1990.
6 Q. But you provided your statement on the 16th of November, 1999
7 Where was that, in the federation or here at the Tribunal?
8 A. In the federation.
9 Q. And after that, after you provided your statement, did you
10 testify in the Popovic case? Thank you.
11 A. I don't understand your question.
12 Q. I will repeat. You provided your statement to the OTP on the
13 16th of November, 1999, and that statement was used in the Popovic case;
14 is that the case, yes or no?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. And after that -- actually, how much time elapsed
17 between the time you provided your statement and your first testimony?
18 A. My first testimony happened in 2003, but not in the case that you
19 mentioned a minute ago.
20 Q. Was that here at the Tribunal or did you testify before a
21 national court? Thank you.
22 A. Here.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you provide any other statement before that or
24 did you testify about the same circumstances you are testifying about
25 today? Thank you.
1 A. The same.
2 Q. Thank you. In the meantime, between the 16 November 1999 and the
3 testimony in 2003, did you get in touch with any of those persons?
4 A. What persons?
5 Q. You now said that you do not remember when you got in touch with
6 the representatives of the Tribunal. Was that during the period between
7 1999 and 2003? Thank you.
8 A. As I told you, in 1999 I provided my statement. My first
9 testimony here at the Tribunal was in 2003. And after that, I testified
10 once again two and a half years ago here, again.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you provide another statement before the
12 testimony in 2003? Thank you.
13 A. I don't know what statement you're talking about. What are you
14 asking me?
15 Q. During that testimony, were you shown a statement? Had the
16 Trial Chamber been provided with a statement? Did the OTP have the
17 statement? Did the accused have a statement?
18 A. At all times, they used this statement.
19 Q. So what did you testify about in 2003, and what did you talk
20 about with the OTP between 1999 and 2003? What did you discuss and when?
21 A. In 2003, I testified here at this Tribunal, and that was that.
22 And you mean after the statement that I provided?
23 Q. No, no. Thank you, thank you. In which case did you testify in
24 2003? Thank you.
25 A. The Jokic and Blagojevic case.
1 Q. Thank you. And did you testify -- or did you base your testimony
2 on the same statement that we are discussing here today?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did you use the same transcripts that we're using here today?
5 Thank you.
6 A. I can't answer that, because in the previous cases we used some
7 conversations, but I don't remember which ones of those that we are
8 looking at here today.
9 Q. Thank you. And after 2003, did you have any more contacts with
10 the representatives of the OTP? Thank you.
11 A. The next time after that was when I came here two and a half
12 years ago.
13 Q. Thank you. Was that in the Popovic case? The Prosecutor
14 mentioned that on the examination-in-chief.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you confirm that in all the cases, the same statement was
17 used, the one that we are using here today?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you need to seek approval from the authorities in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina to appear at the Tribunal and to talk to the
21 representatives of the Tribunal? Thank you.
22 A. I just needed an approval for a leave of absence from work.
23 Q. Thank you. How many persons were present while you provided your
25 A. Two.
1 Q. Thank you. You said that there were two people present, just as
2 it is indicated on the first page; yes or no? Thank you.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Which of the two persons typed your statement?
5 A. Well, I did not pay any attention to that. I know both persons.
6 I remember when they visited me. Which one of them was typing, I don't
7 know. I wouldn't be able to tell you.
8 Q. Did they have a laptop or a typewriter on the desk while they
9 were talking to you?
10 A. Yes, they had a laptop and a printer.
11 Q. Thank you. Were you then given your statement to sign? Thank
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you sign a statement in your own language or in English?
15 Thank you.
16 A. I can't answer your question.
17 Q. Thank you. If you can't answer, could you please look at the
18 screen in front of you and tell us in which language is the statement
19 that you signed?
20 A. English.
21 Q. Thank you. How come you did not sign a statement in your own
22 mother tongue?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you speak English, since you signed the statement
25 in English? Thank you.
1 A. A little.
2 Q. And based on your knowledge of English, were you able to sign the
3 statement after having read it yourself or was it read to you?
4 A. The statement was read back to you 100 per cent accurately, loud
5 and clear, and I signed it.
6 Q. At that time, you were not given a version in your own mother
7 tongue, only in English? Thank you.
8 A. I don't know.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness
10 please be shown page 2 in the same document, and please zoom in on
11 paragraph 4. Thank you.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. We are looking at paragraph 4, where it says that:
14 "In April 1992, I, together with four or five other amateur radio
15 enthusiasts, linked together and joined the Territorial Defence Unit
16 (TDU) as radio interceptors. We initially used our own equipment. Some
17 time later we were given relatively modern equipment."
18 My question is this: How did you join the Territorial Defence
19 Unit? Was that after a conversation with somebody? Did somebody prepare
20 you for that? Thank you.
21 A. Yes, a former officer of the JNA talked to me.
22 Q. At that time, was he a member of the JNA or the BiH Army?
23 A. Before the war, he was a JNA officer. And when the war started,
24 he joined the BiH Army and worked for the BiH Army.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you then receive paperwork to regulate your
1 status with the Territorial Defence or the BiH Army? Thank you.
2 A. Yes, we received the paperwork. I can't tell you exactly what
3 that was, but at first we were given Territorial Defence booklets and
4 then they were BiH Army booklets.
5 Q. Does your military booklet reflect the date when you joined the
6 Territorial Defence, and was that later used towards your pensionable
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, what equipment did you
10 have, your own equipment, for interception?
11 A. We had Radio Ham stations, and as far as I can remember, we also
12 received -- is it really important for me to give you the names?
13 Q. It is important, because you stated that they were later on
14 transported to the northern site. I would be interested to know what you
15 used to intercept those conversations.
16 A. We had those -- I don't know where they came from, but they were
17 called RUP. And when we were transferred -- or, rather, that was at the
18 first location. And then the second group that came from Banovici, they
19 brought the receivers that we used. They were of a rather good quality.
20 Those were ICOM
21 hundreds, the broadband type of equipment for interception for a broad
22 range of frequencies that could be intercepted.
23 Q. Could you please explain for the Trial Chamber, when you say
24 "hundreds," what do you mean? What kind of equipment was that?
25 A. That was a radio receiver. I can't remember the frequencies that
1 it could intercept, but in any case we used them to -- for the
2 frequencies of 200 megahertz, and as well as radio-relay equipment that
3 we used the most, the radio-relay equipment 800.
4 Q. Thank you. When did you get this, as you call it, relatively
5 up-to-date equipment, that is, the last sentence of the fourth paragraph?
6 A. It was at the very beginning, in the summer, I think. The
7 equipment was brought by our Ham Radio operators from Banovici and Tuzla
8 I don't know where they got it, but it was a relatively new equipment.
9 Q. Can you tell us what type of equipment it was so that we would be
10 aware of what means you used to gather information?
11 A. These were radio receiver sets. They couldn't transmit. They
12 were specifically designed to receive.
13 Q. Thank you. Did you modify any of those radio receivers? Did you
14 work on them or did you use them in their original form as received,
15 since you cannot remember which ones those specifically are?
16 A. I think I told you which ones those are. The only modification
17 was with the RRU 800. We simply created converters, small pieces of
18 equipment which split the 24 channels to further sets from the original
20 Q. Well, there's no need to be upset. You only said "receivers,"
21 but you did not specifically name the type.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you also adapt the antennae you had for your receivers to
24 suit your needs better?
25 A. I didn't do that personally. I was an operator. But our
1 commanders were fully versed in that field, and they could place
2 well-directed antennae which fully met our needs.
3 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 5 in your statement - do you see
4 it? - in the Serbian it's page 2, you say:
5 "While we were at Lipik, on Mount Majevica ..."
6 And there is mention of the autumn of 1993. Did you find it?
7 A. Yes, Lipik.
8 Q. You say that until the fall of 1993, you noted conversations down
9 on pieces of paper available, and I quote:
10 "The majority of the conversations, however, were dictated
11 directly from the reel-to-reel tapes to the typist and then transmitted
12 to the 2nd Corps headquarters."
13 Did I accurately quote your statement?
14 A. You did.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you clarify for the Chamber what you say in
16 paragraph 5, something you describe as standard procedure, that it was
17 dictated directly from reel-to-reel tapes to the typists so that there
18 was no need for you to take handwritten notes? Why was it done this way?
19 A. I can explain that quite simply. It was 1993. This was at
20 Lipik, on Mount Majevica
21 isolated and we made do with what we had. We noted conversations down on
22 whatever paper was available. Quite a few of those conversations were
23 sent directly by phone, and later on received computers, and we used
24 Paket communication. (redacted), where we were
25 joined by the other group, and things were much better organised then,
1 making it far easier to work.
2 Q. Thank you. You say that it was dictated to the typist. Would
3 the typist type it into a computer or did they use typewriters?
4 A. They typed it into computers. Urgent conversations could also
5 have been transmitted by phone, before the use of Paket communication.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you continue, Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Vanderpuye,
7 I think everybody's noticed that there was a name mentioned which should
8 be redacted.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Page 51, line 18, especially. Thank you.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. In paragraph 6 of your statement you say as follows, and you can
15 check the accuracy:
16 "In October 1993, this radio-intercept operation was transferred
17 to" the northern site.
18 My question is this: Did you move all of the equipment from
19 Lipik to the northern site?
20 A. We did.
21 Q. Thank you. Did any units remain at Lipik or was the location
22 shut down?
23 A. I think only the sentry unit remained. They trained their young
24 recruits there. We left our facility, however, and that's it.
25 Q. Thank you. When you moved to the northern site, did you continue
1 with this practice of dictating directly from the tapes to the typist?
2 A. No. By that time, we had a person who encrypted the
3 conversations, and he was the only person with access to that computer.
4 It was our task to bring all our note-books, once our shift was finished,
5 to him, and then he sent it on to the command.
6 Q. Thank you. At the northern site, did you have an antenna system?
7 A. Yes, we did. We had antenna systems. Each set that needed its
8 own antenna had it.
9 Q. So there was no need for you to use the old antennae you had
10 brought from Lipik; correct?
11 A. Well, let me explain something. We did not use the radar systems
12 of the JNA because they took all of it away. In the meantime, our
13 commanders made some more equipment, and it was all enough for us to
15 Q. Thank you. I wanted to know this: Did you use the old antenna
16 systems you had at Lipik with your equipment or did you make use of any
17 other antennae?
18 A. Well, we had this new equipment. Some of it was from before, and
19 we also received new sets. They were new, in terms of production, and we
20 made our antennae.
21 Q. So you had sets without antennae; correct?
22 A. Without any antenna systems, we would not have been able to
24 Q. Thank you. But the new sets which you received, did they have
25 their own antenna systems or not?
1 A. They did, but these were our antenna systems. We did not receive
2 original antennae. It was our commanders who created these antenna
3 systems for us, and that is what we used.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you move those antennae, did you change their
5 positions or direction, depending on the participants and frequencies of
6 a particular conversation?
7 A. We turned our antennae in the direction it was ordered to us. If
8 the direction was the Drina Corps, that is the angle at which we would
9 place the antennae. You know very well that once radio-relay equipment
10 is mounted, it is stationary. You turn your antenna in a certain
11 direction where the signal is the strongest, and that's it.
12 Q. Yes, I knew that. But there was some mention made here of some
13 primitive means being used, but I don't think this is the way you had to
14 resort to.
15 A. No, we had a relatively new, modern equipment.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you also have an expert -- a technical expert who
17 was charged with mounting and maintaining those systems?
18 A. I think I said that at the beginning. All of us were
19 enthusiasts, radio amateurs with experience. There were technical
20 engineers among us, so we did not have any technical problems in that
21 sense. I remember very few problems, breakdowns, et cetera.
22 Q. Was there a single person, out of the number of experts you had
23 there, who was tasked with maintaining and setting up the antennae and
24 radio receivers, or was it done by several people?
25 A. Once those antenna systems are set up, they work, and there's
1 nothing there to be meddled with unless they had to be redirected. But
2 as far as I know, I can remember very few instances when something needed
3 to be repaired. In any case, these people were always available and
4 ready to assist, if necessary.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how far removed were the antennae
6 from the receivers, themselves?
7 A. Some antennae were up on the roof, so quite close; whereas some
8 antenna systems were on a nearby hill, close to the room where we worked
9 in the PPS
10 Q. Were you on duty 'round the clock for the 15 days referred to in
11 your statement?
12 A. No, not 'round the clock. That would have been impossible. Our
13 practice was to be on duty three to four hours, unless there was
14 significant activity, and then it would take us longer to rewind the
15 tapes and do everything that was necessary. But not 'round the clock.
16 That would not have been feasible. You cannot work for 24 hours like
17 that. We would do our shift, and then we're ready to assist, if
19 Q. On page 3 of your statement, in paragraph 1, you say that your
20 shift lasted 15 days, and then you would be on leave the next 15 days.
21 That is why I asked you whether you were on duty 'round the clock for the
22 15 days in question. How long did an operator sit to process the
23 conversations in his shift?
24 A. As I said a moment ago, three to four hours, unless we needed
25 more time. For the 15 days, we were there, and then we rotated.
1 However, the equipment was on non-stop.
2 Q. Thank you. This is why I'm asking you that. I asked you how
3 long you, as operators, worked in a period of 24 hours. Let's take you,
4 for example.
5 A. I cannot say precisely, but it would be three to four days --
6 three to four hours, unless there was more activity. In the evening,
7 there would be less activity, and only one person remained on duty.
8 There was no need for two or three of us to be awake throughout the
9 night. And, of course, in the morning, at around 5.00, we would wake up,
10 but the system was well worked out.
11 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 3, as you can see, on page 3, you say in
12 the first sentence:
13 "We used the scanning function on our equipment."
14 Does that mean that when a certain set has the scanning ability,
15 there was no need to do anything manually or to move the antennae?
16 A. You are quite right in that, but this has nothing to do with the
17 antennae. These were state-of-the-art sets. Once a conversation was on,
18 the scanning was stopped, the UHER recorder would turn on, and that was
20 Q. Thank you. Did you receive any special instruction on how to
21 work with the equipment or did you receive any instruction on the
22 activities of the units you monitored?
23 A. Any information and orders were conveyed to us by our commander.
24 We followed his instructions, and that is it.
25 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 4 - you can follow it there to see
1 whether I'm quoting accurately - it says:
2 "Everything was recorded, and we would only note down the
3 frequencies, dates, and names on a piece of paper."
4 My question is this: Did you also -- did you only note down the
5 frequencies, date, time, and names, whereas the rest was unimportant, or
6 was it? Thank you.
7 A. Well, I have just started to explain that. The set would
8 register a conversation. The scanning function would be stopped and the
9 UHER recorder turned on. As the recording went on, we noted down the
10 time, frequency, and the rest. Once the conversation was finished, the
11 recording would be stopped and the scanner turned on. If something was
12 urgent, in our assessment, we would start transcribing immediately, and
13 then a work-mate would sit down at the set and continue working. So,
14 things went smoothly.
15 Q. Was there any need to burn any documents or use them for other
16 purposes out of the transcripts you made by hand?
17 A. I never burned my transcripts, and I didn't see anyone else do
18 so. Once I used up a note-book, I would hand it over to the commander,
19 and he would be better placed to tell you what he did with those.
20 Q. Thank you. So this closes the topic of papers. You handed them
21 over to your commander.
22 What about the tapes; what was done with them by you, the
23 operators, once they were filled?
24 A. Once the tape reached its end, we did the same thing we used to
25 do with the note-books. I would hand it over, put in a fresh tape, and
1 the commander used the old ones.
2 Q. Did you ever re-record a single tape? Did you ever tape another
3 conversation over a previous one?
4 A. That is quite likely, because when the commander returned tapes
5 to us, I didn't know whether it was an old tape which was erased or not.
6 We seldom had fully new tapes.
7 Q. Did you have a set of equipment which could have been used solely
8 for erasing at that location?
9 A. I don't know that.
10 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 5 of your statement - it's the last
11 paragraph on page 3 - you say that you compared -- I quote:
12 "I did not have much contact with them, but from time to time
13 when I could hear a piece of conversation, I would compare that to the
14 material collected by the State Security Service. That way, occasionally
15 we managed to see both ends of the line."
16 Can you explain to the Chamber whether you could determine both
17 participants, based on that portion of the conversation, or were you able
18 to establish what both of the services gathering such information were
20 A. Well, this is a number of questions. It's confusing.
21 Q. You said that first you heard one participant, and then based on
22 what the State Security recorded, you made your comparisons and then you
23 could gain information about both participants. Are you referring to
24 both services that intercepted the conversations or both participants in
25 the conversation that you monitored?
1 A. Most probably, although as far as I can remember, of course, that
2 we shared the same facility for a while and we had some contacts, of
3 course, but I never followed -- we never knew what they were monitoring.
4 I believe -- after such a long time, I can't really remember, but I
5 believe that it did happen, that I could hear one participant in a
6 conversation and I couldn't hear the other at all. It didn't happen
7 often, but I can't exclude such a possibility. It was probably within
8 that context that I stated that. I did ask them whether they were
9 monitoring the same conversation, whether they recorded it, and whether
10 they could assist me with deciphering who the other participant was.
11 That would be my answer.
12 Q. Was that reliable? If you heard only one part of the
13 conversation, was that enough for you to compare what you had and what
14 the other service had, what they had recorded? Was that enough for you
15 to conclude who the second participant was, if you could not conclude
16 that based on your intercept alone? Thank you.
17 A. We cannot talk about any deductions or drawing conclusions. We
18 are talking about entire conversations when I could only hear one
19 participant in the conversation. At the same time, the identical -- the
20 same conversation was recorded by them. I don't know whether you have
21 had an occasion to hear any such intercepted conversations. There's no
22 place for deductions. The conversations recorded by one service and by
23 the other are absolutely identical, and there's no room for guessing.
24 Q. Thank you. I apologise to you. I'm only reading from your
25 statement. I'm quoting your words in the fifth paragraph, in the last
1 two sentences. You can check, if you want.
2 However, you just told us that it was very rarely that you could
3 hear only one participant. Did I understand you properly? Is that why
4 it wasn't necessary for you to ask for their assistance, because such
5 situations were few and far between? Thank you.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Does this mean that in the conversations that you
8 were listening to, you could hear the interlocutor in Sarajevo as well as
9 the one in Han Pijesak, for example? Thank you.
10 A. Yes.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness
12 please be shown page 4. Thank you.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. The first sentence on page 4, which you see already, reads:
15 "When we identified the frequencies, we used the working map on
16 the wall of the room where we worked."
17 My question is this: Was that map always the same or was it
18 changed? Was it changed often? How was it drawn, who drew it up? What
19 information it contained? Did it contain all the information that the
20 Ham operators needed or, rather, the intercept operators needed? Thank
22 A. It says here when we identified frequencies, that means that we
23 used that map, and what I meant by that was the fact that the map allowed
24 me to determine the direction from which the signal came. It was the
25 commander who used the map most often. He inserted the names of the
1 participants and so on and so forth.
2 Q. I know how the maps are drawn. Can you please tell me whether it
3 was often changed or not?
4 A. The map, as such, there was just one, as far as I can remember.
5 And as for what he drew on it, what he inserted on it, I don't know.
6 Q. In any case, you always saw just one map that you used to define
7 the elements that you could then use on your equipment. Thank you.
8 Could you please tell us whether you recorded only conversations
9 involving the VRS or whether you also recorded conversations of the units
10 for which you provided intelligence support, because that's why your unit
11 is called the Electronics Support Unit or the Unit for Electronic
12 Warfare? Thank you.
13 A. I personally monitored what was ordered to me by the commander.
14 Those were predominantly officers of the VRS.
15 Q. Thank you. Did you monitor anybody else or anything else but the
16 VRS officers? Thank you.
17 A. As far as I can remember, only them.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you remember any other conversation, save for the
19 19 that are before you in the file? Thank you.
20 A. Sir, there were so many conversations, I don't even know their
21 number. You're asking me to try and recall a conversation now. It's a
22 very tall order. It would be very difficult for me to remember any of
24 Q. Thank you very much. It would be difficult to remember even the
25 19 that are before us if you didn't have the transcript before you; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes, you're right.
3 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you stated that you had used a
4 BC 91 and 42; pages 35 and 36 and 91. Are those only the note-book pages
5 which contain the transcripts that are today before you?
6 A. Could you please assist me? Could you please help me? I didn't
7 understand you.
8 Q. Before you is a file with 19 conversations under 19 different
10 A. Yes.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask a question of the witness.
13 Do you have any problems and need a break? That was the
14 impression some people formed. If you need a break, just indicate it.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, we should have the second break
17 now, and we will --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, yes, I need a break.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. We will have the second break now, and we
20 will resume 10 minutes before 6.00.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are in a problematic situation because the
25 health condition of the witness is not the best and he can't continue the
1 hearing and giving evidence this afternoon, so that we are facing a
3 The next hearing will be next week, on Tuesday. The witness --
4 if we continue examining this witness, he has to stay over the weekend,
5 and we have to resume on Tuesday with this witness, if he is then able
6 and he is in a better health condition.
7 The other option could be to have an additional hearing tomorrow
8 just to finish this witness so that we could give him the opportunity to
9 travel back to his home, if his health condition is better tomorrow. We
10 have no indication for that, but we should think about that, if we could
11 be quite flexible.
12 Mr. Tolimir, could you give us an estimation, how much additional
13 time you need for your cross-examination?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 If the witness is sick and if he has to travel where he can be
16 treated, I agree that he should be sent straight away. And as for my
17 questioning, if I don't put all of my questions, it will not change my
18 destiny, I will not be acquitted or convicted.
19 May God be of assistance to this witness, and may he make him
20 feel better. We will pray for him.
21 As far as I'm concerned, I wish him the best of health, and you
22 do what is best for the witness. As far as I am concerned, you do
23 whatever you, as the Trial Chamber, deem to be the best for the witness.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These are very nice words. On the other hand,
1 Mr. Tolimir, to avoid any misunderstanding, you are not under time
2 pressure. You have the right to continue your cross-examination. It's
3 up to you to decide. If you have additional questions and if you want to
4 use the time perhaps in an additional hearing tomorrow or next week, or
5 if you say it is not so important, you have had the opportunity to
6 cross-examine the witness, this is only up to you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Let your decision be appropriate to the witness's health. I'm
9 sure that his sojourn here until next Tuesday would not be beneficial for
10 him. If you think that he should stay until Tuesday, then I'm prepared
11 to give up on all the questions that I may still have had for him. If
12 you think that he can appear tomorrow, then I am prepared to put a few
13 more questions to him.
14 Thank you very much. I appreciate your understanding. I know
15 that you want to do best by the witness, by myself, and by the OTP,
16 although I believe that the OTP does not have any additional questions
17 for the witness. Thank you very much.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for your position.
19 Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Mr. Tolimir is right. I don't have any additional questions for
22 this witness as a result of the examination so far. But I do want to
23 stress, because I think it's important, that we do not wish to put
24 Mr. Tolimir in a position where he is required to waive his right of
25 cross-examination of this witness, given the fact that we've presented
1 the evidence of this witness. And although he's willing and flexible, in
2 terms of the cross-examination or how much additional cross-examination
3 he may have, I just want the record to be clear that we're not requesting
4 that, and if he wants to do that, that's certainly his prerogative, but I
5 just want that to be clear.
6 We have two witnesses that we're able to go with, I think, today,
7 one of which I think can probably be finished today. It might be a good
8 idea to proceed with them, or at least the one, and then find out if it's
9 suitable for the witness, who has taken ill, if he's able or willing to
10 continue next week. And if that's possible, then I think that's probably
11 a pretty good solution. That way, Mr. Tolimir can reflect on whether he
12 wishes to further examine the witness, and hopefully the witness will be
13 in a good-enough shape at that time to proceed and complete, I think, a
14 relatively short portion or remaining examination.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this position. It's the position
16 of the Chamber as well. There should be no time restraint for
17 Mr. Tolimir.
18 Before we entered the court, I asked Madam Registrar to find out
19 the situation of the witness during the last hour of our hearing this
20 afternoon, and I hope we have some more additional information before we
21 adjourn this evening.
22 I think it's a good proposal to continue with the next witness.
23 And this one will be which one?
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's PW-038, Witness 105.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: May I be excused for the rest of the
2 proceedings, Mr. President?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think it is
4 inhumane to force the witness to stay here ill over the weekend because
5 of a few additional questions. I am ready to conclude my examination.
6 Mr. Vanderpuye is right in what he says, but I waive my right, and
7 there's nothing problematic about this particular witness. There is no
8 mention of my name or myself in these intercepts alone. Therefore, it is
9 not essential for me to continue. Given that he is ill, he should be
10 released to go home. Pressure is a very difficult thing for those who
11 are unaccustomed to it, especially when they are in completely new
12 circumstances such as these.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber appreciates your
14 position, and we should consider what you have said. We should make a
15 decision at the end of today's hearing.
16 Good afternoon, Mr. Elderkin.
17 The next witness should be brought in.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: Good afternoon, Mr. President and Your Honours.
19 I will be examining the next witness, and I'd like to state for
20 the record the witness has the protective measures of pseudonym and
21 facial distortion.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. You're welcome.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Welcome to the Tribunal.
25 Please wait a moment so that the screens are opened.
1 Again, good afternoon. Could you please read aloud the
2 affirmation on the card which is shown to you now.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: PW-038
6 [The witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, for the Prosecution, has some
10 questions for you.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Examination by Mr. Elderkin:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
14 As you know, my name is Rupert Elderkin. And just before I start
15 asking questions, I want to remind you to try to keep your voice up and
16 speak into the microphones, and to speak slowly enough for the
17 interpreters to translate between what we're saying. And if there's any
18 question that I ask you that is unclear, then please say so, and I will
19 do my best to rephrase the question.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: Please, could I ask for 65 ter 6297 to be shown,
21 and that's marked as P416.
22 Q. Sir, please, could you look at what's written on the screen, and
23 without reading it aloud, can you confirm if that is your name?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd ask for the pseudonym sheet to be admitted
1 under seal.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received, under seal, with the given
4 MR. ELDERKIN:
5 Q. Sir, do you recall testifying here in January of 2007?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. And did you have a chance to listen to that testimony in your
8 language yesterday?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Does your testimony from 2007 fairly, accurately, and truthfully
11 reflect what you would say if you were asked the same questions in court
13 A. In essence, yes.
14 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd move, Your Honours, to have the 2007 testimony
15 admitted. It's as P414, which is the confidential version under seal,
16 and the public version is P415.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd also request at this time, Your Honours, for
19 the admission of the witness's May 1999 witness statement, which was the
20 basis of his evidence in the Popovic case and an exhibit to his evidence
21 in that case, which is P406, also to be under seal.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That will be received as well.
23 MR. ELDERKIN: With your permission, I'd now like to read a very
24 short summary of the witness's evidence, and this can all be open
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Continue.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: The witness was a member of the BiH Army. In
3 July 1995, he was an intercept operator, based at the northern location.
4 His work practice followed the established procedure of scanning,
5 recording, and transcribing intercepts into note-books. Normal practice
6 was to work in six-hour shifts, followed by a six-hour break, depending
7 on how busy it was. During the fall of Srebrenica in July 1995, people
8 worked for 20 hours a day.
9 The intercept operators grew to know which channels to monitor on
10 particular frequencies, and became skilled at identifying many of the
11 voices they heard. The witness was able to recognise several VRS
12 officers' voices and knew several VRS code-names.
13 That concludes my summary, and I have, with the Court's
14 permission, a few additional questions for the witness.
15 I'd ask the Usher could pass up a packet of intercepts, please.
16 Q. Witness, yesterday did you have a chance to review this file
17 containing 11 intercepted conversations?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. And did you also see yesterday the original handwritten
20 note-books in which you originally recorded those conversations?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And do the intercepts in the blue file before you correspond with
23 those original note-books?
24 A. Please repeat your question.
25 Q. Are the intercepts in the file on your desk now the copies of
1 intercepts that you saw in the original note-books yesterday?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. And can you confirm that the intercepts at all 11 tabs in the
4 blue file are in your handwriting?
5 A. Yes, it is my handwriting.
6 Q. Did you listen to, record, and transcribe those intercepts in
7 July 1995?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Generally, how soon after intercepting a conversation did you
10 transcribe it into a note-book?
11 A. It all depended on the importance and urgency of a conversation.
12 It was done either immediately or 10 to 20 minutes later. In any case,
13 first it was all recorded and then subsequently noted down.
14 Q. And is that true specifically of these 11 intercepts?
15 A. I'm not certain for all of them, but most of it was taken down
16 and transcribed within such a period of time.
17 Q. And did you also look yesterday at printed versions of those
18 intercepts in the file?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. And do the handwritten intercepts correspond with the printed
21 versions that you saw?
22 A. Yes, they do.
23 MR. ELDERKIN: At this time, I'd ask to have the 11 intercepts
24 admitted as indicated on the tender list. And the first seven of the
25 intercepts in the packet, which are P407, 408, 409, 410, 411, 412, and
1 413, were all admitted through this witness in the Popovic trial, and
2 P417, 418, 419, and P420 were not used with or admitted through this
3 witness in the Popovic trial.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The first set of documents will be received, but
5 the Exhibit numbers P407B, C and D only marked for identification,
6 pending translation.
7 And could you please indicate if the second set of documents are
8 contained in the binder of 11 intercepts we have in front of us?
9 MR. ELDERKIN: Mr. President, yes, they are at tabs 8 through 11.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. These four intercepts will be
11 received as well.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
13 And, Witness, thank you. I have no further questions for you at
14 this time.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.
16 Witness, now the accused has the right to put questions to you in
17 his cross-examination.
18 Mr. Tolimir.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 I'd like to greet all those present yet again, including the
21 witness. I hope today's testimony will be concluded following God's will
22 and not my own.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, after my questions, please pause shortly so as not to
1 overlap. Otherwise, your answers will not make part of the transcript.
2 A. Very well.
3 Q. First, I'd like for your witness statement to be shown in
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: P406.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P406. Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will not be broadcast.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can see the cover page in
9 English. Could we have both cover pages on the screen at the same time.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. In what language did you sign your statement, what version?
12 A. The Bosnian one.
13 Q. Thank you. We can see the English version being signed, and your
14 mother-tongue version is not signed. Can you explain that?
15 A. I can, but I signed the English version which was read back to me
16 in Bosnian, although I don't know why there is no signature on the
17 Bosnian version.
18 Q. Save for those two persons whose names we can see on the cover
19 page, were there any other persons present? It seems that one of these
20 people interviewed you and the other one interpreted.
21 A. Yes, these were the two people present.
22 Q. Did they record your interview?
23 A. I'm not sure whether it was or not. It was a long time ago.
24 Q. Which one of these two typed up the conversation, and in what
1 A. Your Honours, I have a question to ask. Can I freely mention any
2 names? Can I mention the name of the person working on this?
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you referring to the names of the persons who
4 signed this document?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think there is no problem.
7 Mr. Elderkin.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Mr. President, the names of the language staff,
9 our practice is to request that it's in private session.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We go into private session for a moment.
11 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you tell us now?
3 A. I think it was in English and that it was interpreted to me into
5 Q. So it was interpreted to you orally, whereas she typed it up in
7 A. They showed me the Bosnian version as well, and they told me what
8 it was about.
9 Q. Could they have typed it up immediately in both languages?
10 A. I don't think it was done simultaneously. I think one version
11 preceded the other. Otherwise, I would not have signed the English
12 version, since I do not understand English.
13 Q. Thank you. We can see on the screen that you did sign the
14 English version, whereas you did not sign the version in your mother
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is your question?
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. My question is this: Which version did he sign, the English or
19 his mother-tongue version?
20 A. The statement before me has my signature in the English version.
21 I know what it's about because it was put to me in Bosnian as well, and I
22 do not have an explanation for why it was not signed in Bosnian too.
23 Q. Thank you. Let's move to another topic.
24 You provided this statement in 1999. Where was it?
25 A. In Tuzla
1 Q. Thank you. Before that, did anyone speak to you from the
2 Tribunal about any statements and material presented in proceedings?
3 A. Before that, I had had no contact with any Tribunal
5 Q. Did you have any following contacts with OTP representatives?
6 A. I did.
7 Q. When and where?
8 A. I think it was in 1999 onwards. It all took place in Tuzla
9 Q. Did it have to do with this particular statement or did it have
10 to do with something else?
11 A. It had to do with this statement as well as some other cases.
12 Q. Thank you. Did those cases have to do with Srebrenica?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you also provide certain statements concerning Srebrenica
16 A. Please repeat.
17 Q. Did you provide another statement, in addition to this one, that
18 would have to do with the events in Srebrenica?
19 A. This is the only statement I gave, and it had to do with the rest
20 of those events.
21 Q. Does it contain any descriptions of those events because of which
22 you were contacted by Tribunal representatives?
23 A. As far as I can see here before me, it does not, but --
24 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what the topic of that discussion was,
25 since it was not in the material forwarded to us?
1 A. When I gave the statement, all of this information, well, the
2 gist -- well, this is the statement, these were the questions they put,
3 and I answered.
4 Q. And you also signed the information you provided to them?
5 A. Yes, according to what I can see.
6 Q. Were any other people included in the process?
7 A. No, the same people.
8 Q. Could you please explain, in your own words, why did those
9 persons again contact you, and when was that, and was it in Bosnia
10 Thank you.
11 A. Your Honour, could I please not answer this question in open
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
14 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Carry on, please, Mr. Tolimir.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. I have just one more question about this topic. Could you please
15 tell the Trial Chamber, the part of the statement that you subsequently
16 signed and that was used in the previous cases, can that be considered a
17 secret agreement or can that part also be made public as well as this
18 one? Thank you.
19 A. I apologise, sir. Could you please repeat?
20 Q. You have just told us that in the repeated contacts with the same
21 persons, you provided several statements for the cases in which you
22 previously testified. Those statements are not here today. That's why
23 I'm asking you whether those statements contained some sort of agreement
24 between you and those persons that are not supposed to be made public,
25 which are secret.
1 A. No, sir, the same statement. Whenever I testified, we only used
2 one sentence -- one and only statement that I provided and that I used in
3 my testimonies.
4 Q. You just told us that you even signed something after those
5 repeated conversations and contacts. What was that?
6 A. Only an affidavit that there was, indeed, a conversation with me.
7 Q. Never mind, let's move on to another group of questions. I don't
8 want to waste any more time. Let's move on to something easier.
9 In the third paragraph of your statement --
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the
11 page where -- with the third paragraph? Now we have it.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] In the third paragraph, in the
13 first sentence, you said:
14 "I joined the BH Army in March 1993, and I was deployed to a unit
15 for radio surveillance"?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you please explain, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber
18 and for my own benefit, what does this mean? What is the meaning of
19 "electronic reconnaissance"? Did you perform electronic reconnaissance,
20 and what pieces of equipment did you use for electronic reconnaissance
21 and anti-electronic activities? Thank you.
22 A. I apologise. Could we again go into private session? I can't
23 provide my answers in open session.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 2690-2693 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. On page 3 of this document - could it be displayed, please - in
25 paragraph 3 you say, in the last sentence:
1 "I had the discretion to decide what was and what was not
3 And in the second line of the same paragraph, you say that you
4 made only brief summaries. Could you please explain what was entered in
5 those brief summaries and what did you mean when you say that you had the
6 discretion to decide?
7 A. As an operator, I had an approval to make an assessment and
8 selection between private conversations and conversations involving
9 military personnel that were of no consequence for my command. That's
10 the selection that I had the discretion to make.
11 Q. Did you also make a selection in terms of the brief summaries
12 that you made?
13 A. Could you please repeat your question?
14 Q. Thank you. In the second line of the third paragraph, you say:
15 "I would just make a brief summary in a note-book if a
16 conversation was not important."
17 That's the second sentence. Thank you.
18 A. Yes. If I thought that the conversation was not important, I
19 would just write a brief summary to summarise the contents if any of the
20 things were mentioned in any of the subsequent conversations.
21 Q. Thank you. You said that for a while you were without
22 note-books. During the Srebrenica period, did you have note-books?
23 A. We didn't have note-books. We transcribed conversations on all
24 sorts of things; on pieces of papers, in note-books, whatever we had.
25 Q. You also stated that there were tapes and that there were papers,
1 and that note-books were archived in the command, and that the tapes were
2 listened for important things?
3 A. The note-books that were filled up were archives -- archived, and
4 the tapes were given to the command, and the command decided what should
5 be left permanently recorded on the tapes. The rest was erased.
6 Q. Did you personally destroy your notes or did you give your notes
7 to the commanders to decide what to destroy if it was not important?
8 A. I don't think that the note-books were destroyed in my locations.
9 They were forwarded to another location and they were archived there.
10 Q. Do you remember that the note-books were burned in your location?
11 A. I don't remember the note-books being burnt by anybody.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at the 10th paragraph, the last
13 two sentences:
14 "I also recall a number of conversations relating to the fall of
16 And could you please tell us, when you say that people were
17 infiltrating from the city, that the Serbs were infiltrated into that
18 city, what do you mean?
19 A. This is not about the infiltration into the city. This is about
20 people who were fleeing Srebrenica, who joined the columns that were
21 passing through. Some of them were VRS members that were infiltrated
22 into those columns among those people.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 "There are also conversations regarding the placing of mines on
25 routes those fleeing were expected to take, and requests made for buses
1 to be provided."
2 Thank you, end of quote. Could you please tell us where those
3 mines were placed and whether we can find that information in the
4 transcripts that are before us?
5 A. The mines were placed at the places where the VRS assumed that
6 those columns would pass through. However, we heard in subsequent
7 conversations that the entire column was able to bypass those mines. And
8 as for the buses, I believe that there are conversations relative to the
9 buses which were requested for the evacuation.
10 Q. My question was whether these conversations are relative to those
11 who attempted to leave Potocari and go in the direction of Tuzla
12 whether this concerns the others, those who tried to break through with
13 the military column towards Tuzla
14 A. I don't know who this concerned, whether they were trying to
15 break through and go in from Potocari. In any case, they were trying to
16 reach free territory. These were the columns discussed here.
17 Q. Since you wrote the transcripts and you included this in the
18 statement, it would be important for us to know who this pertains to. Is
19 it the people who were evacuated aboard -- on board buses from Kladanj or
20 those people trying to break through, who went via Crni Vrh and
21 Baljkovica towards Tuzla
22 A. I think it had to do with those who were on foot. I don't think
23 they would drive buses through minefields.
24 Q. So why did you mention the buses, then?
25 A. The buses were used to deport those who had been caught.
1 Q. To where?
2 A. Well, I couldn't tell you that.
3 Q. Did all those buses go to Srebrenica, since you say that you knew
4 well the voice of the person requesting that the buses be provided? Did
5 he send buses to Srebrenica for all those who were at Crni Vrh and
7 A. I know the person well by the voice, the person requesting those
8 buses, and he probably needed them for certain parts around Srebrenica.
9 Q. Did it have to do with the women, children, and the elderly who
10 were taken on board -- aboard buses to Kladanj, or did it have to do with
11 those soldiers who were on foot, trying to reach Baljkovica?
12 A. It was for the women and children, but also able-bodied men were
13 referred to, as well as certain figures.
14 Q. And you're saying this because of some assessments of yours or
15 based on what you recorded and reflected in the transcripts?
16 A. This comes from the conversations I recorded and listened to.
17 Q. Out of these conversations, of which there are 11, can you
18 indicate a passage which would have to do with that, to be able to see it
19 for ourselves and see whether it concerns civilians or soldiers?
20 A. I didn't tell you precisely whom it concerned, but, yes, I can go
21 back to the conversations and see.
22 Q. Let me remind you. It is in that portion in which you speak of
23 the Laser Company in Brcko and the 30 buses going towards Srebrenica.
24 Perhaps you'll be able to find it now.
25 A. Please bear with me. I need to find it.
1 Q. If you find it, please read it out so as to avoid the need to put
2 any further questions about it. We only have five minutes left.
3 A. I found it. The participants were X and Y:
4 "Is there a possibility that we send some 10 buses?"
5 Q. Go on.
6 A. The other says:
7 "Call them immediately. Apparently, there is 6.000 of them up to
9 And the first one asked:
10 "Are they able-bodied men?"
11 The other says:
12 "Keep quiet about this. Do not repeat."
13 Q. Go on.
14 A. "All right, send them. I have three locations. It is where you
15 and I were, and then the one at the crossroads, and then halfway to
16 there. This is where they should be loaded, and at each of the locations
17 there is between 1.000 and 1500 of them, and there are women and children
18 being transported."
19 And the other one says:
20 "Yes, but there is more."
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please tell the Chamber which tab in
23 your binder you were reading from. Which document was it? Perhaps it is
24 tab number 7. Is that true?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, number 7.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you to all who helped us.
2 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Were the buses sent to collect those from Potocari or to collect
5 those you were referring to?
6 A. I don't know who they were supposed to collect. They were
7 requested, and I don't know who they transported.
8 Q. In the statement I quoted to you, you said that they
9 transported -- well, see for yourself:
10 "I don't know whether those buses were used, but I am familiar
11 with some subsequent conversations in which it was confirmed that the
12 buses took people to unknown destinations. I suppose it was also
14 Can you tell us what those locations or destinations were?
15 A. I can't tell you precisely, because I don't have those
16 conversations before me concerning that topic.
17 Q. Thank you. I can tell you that we have witnesses from all those
18 locations, and they speak of their manner -- means of transport. But
19 since you intercepted this, are you sure that those who went on foot were
20 then transferred onto buses?
21 A. Sir, I wasn't interested in how they moved about. I was
22 interested in what we heard and recorded. Whether they transported
23 able-bodied men, civilians, or women, later on in some other
24 conversations it turned out that the buses were used.
25 Q. Thank you. I'm running out of time. Can you tell us which
1 conversation it is, with what number, and then we'll check it ourselves,
2 and the Chamber can do the same, so as not to waste time.
3 A. It is 0320-5302.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And which tab in your binder in front of you, the
5 hard copy?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 7.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
8 Please carry on.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Witness, in the radio network you used concerning Srebrenica,
11 well, were you familiar with that and with its participants? Did you
12 have that on one of your working maps?
13 A. Well, we had most of them, 90 per cent of the participants'
14 code-names and frequencies.
15 Q. Did you have at least the main commanders of units engaged around
17 A. Yes, we did.
18 Q. As part of the network, did you also have my position and my
19 radio station frequency?
20 A. We did.
21 Q. What was it; can you tell the Chamber? Was it marked on your
22 working map?
23 A. Apologies. Do you mean the frequency of the network or the name,
24 the code-name?
25 Q. Either way.
1 A. I think it was Panorama.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Tolimir.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Was Panorama a combat unit, or was it a command post, a location,
5 a facility?
6 A. I think it was a command post.
7 Q. Was it an office or working area or a unit in the field?
8 A. I apologise. I don't know. What do you mean, "a working place"?
9 It was a command and the people who worked there.
10 Q. When intercepting conversations from there, were you able to
11 establish whether it was the main staff or an operational unit?
12 A. Yes, we were able to establish that.
13 Q. So what was your conclusion?
14 A. I think it was an army command.
15 Q. Among the conversations you intercepted, were there any
16 conversations where I was a participant?
17 A. I think so.
18 Q. Did it have to do with any combat operations or with some other
19 activities concerning UNPROFOR and other sides to the conflict, in terms
20 of negotiations?
21 A. I don't know. I didn't study this in detail. But you are right,
22 there are certain conversations concerning UNPROFOR and private
23 conversations. There's lots of it, but I didn't go into details.
24 Q. Is there a conversation which would have to do with the
25 engagement of units in combat activities?
1 A. I apologise, but first I would have to refer to the
2 conversations, themselves.
3 Q. There is no need. The four conversations that were admitted
4 here -- first, seven were admitted, and then another four which were used
5 only in this case and not the Popovic case, can you see those and do you
6 know what they refer to?
7 A. I see one of those now.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These are tabs 8, 9, 10, 11 in the binder. Thank
9 you, Mr. Elderkin.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Can you tell us whether they refer to combat or non-combat
13 A. Sir, I looked at two out of four, and so far I didn't notice any
14 combat activities. But these were regular activities in times of war.
15 Anything happening in a war has to do with combat.
16 Q. Well, what about humanitarian assistance; is that a combat
18 A. Well, it depends on the conditions in which it is forwarded. If
19 it is in grave condition, then --
20 Q. In the two intercepts you just saw, did you notice any direct
21 participation on my part or were there only go-betweens mentioning my
22 name? Am I one of the participants or are the participants only
23 referring to me?
24 A. In the first few I saw, you are one of the participants.
25 Q. And you say that I only spoke about the activities which did not
1 have to do with the front-line and Srebrenica. Am I discussing any
2 activities having to do with the front-lines and Srebrenica?
3 A. I apologise. I would have to refer to them first. I don't know
4 it by heart.
5 Q. Well, the first two you reviewed.
6 A. In the first conversation, it was a private matter you discussed
7 with this gentleman. He was asking something for you to do about his
8 relative. As for the other one --
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, following this
10 answer I will have no further questions. By your leave, I would kindly
11 ask that we wait for his reply. In case we're running too late, we can
12 go without it.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Well, we are waiting for the reply.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I need some time to
15 read all this and to see whether anything of that -- any of that is
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
18 interest in that.
19 I would like to thank you for testifying here. I wish you a safe
20 journey, and God bless. As far as I'm concerned, this closes my
22 I would like to thank the interpreters, on behalf of Defence, in
23 trying to catch up with me and the witness. I would also like to thank
24 all those who followed this testimony in these difficult conditions.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir, for your nice
3 Mr. Elderkin, do you have re-examination?
4 MR. ELDERKIN: May I have just less than two minutes,
5 Mr. President, to clear up one point?
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The interpreters and all the others, the court
7 recorder, are fine with it. Yes.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Elderkin:
10 Q. Witness, there was one reference in the English transcript. It
11 was page 82, and questions and answers at line 5 to 8. You were asked:
12 "You say that you joined the unit in 1995, and ... for how long
13 did you work without interruptions?"
14 And you answered:
15 "I believe that I worked up to sometime around the 8th or
16 9th June."
17 Could you clarify whether this answer is correctly interpreted?
18 A. It is not correct. I think it was July, rather than June.
19 Q. And did your shift-work continue throughout July, during the
20 period of the fall of Srebrenica and Zepa?
21 A. For as long as there was any activity and lots of work, this is
22 how we worked. On some days, the intensity was lower, requiring less
23 personnel because they were sufficient to have it all under control.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions.
25 And with thanks to the Court's indulgence and to all the staff.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, you will be pleased that this concludes
2 the questioning for you. You are now free to return to your home and to
3 your normal activities. And, again, thank you for your attendance here.
4 But please wait a moment before you leave the courtroom.
5 As all others, I would like to thank all who assisted us in the
6 quite difficult circumstances of today's hearing. It was, nevertheless,
7 a very effective hearing. And especially I would like to say my
8 gratitude to the interpreters and the court recorder. It was hard work
10 And I have to inform everybody that I got information about the
11 previous witness. We will not get any information about his possibility,
12 if he is able to testify tomorrow. He is now in the hospital. And in
13 these circumstances, we can't resume tomorrow.
14 I take it, Mr. Tolimir, with really high gratitude, that you have
15 contributed to the situation and that you indicated to agree that the
16 witness should be free to return if his health permits his return to his
17 home. Is that still your position?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 It is still my position. Both the previous witness and this one
20 can go home. It would really not be humane for us to keep him waiting
21 until Tuesday or recall him from the hospital. There is really no
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that, Mr. Tolimir. The
24 Chamber appreciates this position very much.
25 We are finished today's hearing. Thank you all, and we wish you
1 a good weekend. But we will resume next Tuesday, I think, at 9.00 in
2 Courtroom I.
3 We adjourn.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.11 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th of June,
7 2010, at 9.00 a.m.