Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5301

 1                           Tuesday, 14 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom, and

 7     especially good morning, Ms. Frease, again.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I remind you that the affirmation to tell the

10     truth still applies.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, yesterday you finished your

13     cross-examination, but perhaps there are -- during night-time, you --

14     during night-time you had, like Mr. Vanderpuye indicated yesterday, that

15     there's some additional questions, or was that completed?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning to everybody.  May

17     God's peace reign in this house and may God's will be done and not

18     necessarily mine in these proceedings.

19             Your Honours, thank you for giving me the floor.  I would like to

20     inform you that my cross-examination is completed.  I would like to thank

21     you and everybody who has assisted me with the cross-examination of this

22     witness and also I would like to thank the witness, once again.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Vanderpuye, your cross-examination -- your re-examination.

25     I'm sorry.

Page 5302

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  Good

 2     morning to you, Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone.

 3                           WITNESS:  STEFANIE FREASE [Resumed]

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 5        Q.   Good morning to you, Ms. Frease.  I apologise for having you back

 6     here again today.  I have really just three areas that I wanted to cover

 7     on re-direct examination so I'll get right to it.

 8             What I wanted to have you look at is this binder here.  It

 9     contains within it P792, and this is the binder of intercepts which I

10     think you'd referred to before.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to have that shown to the witness, if I

12     could, please.  And then I'd also like to have it shown to the Court,

13     because I think it will be helpful to understand the context of the

14     witness's testimony.

15        Q.   Ms. Frease, could you basically just describe the binder and

16     could you confirm that it is the binder, in fact, that you've been

17     discussing during the course of your testimony?

18        A.   Yes.  It is the binder that I've been discussing.  And one of the

19     unusual features about it that I had forgotten until seeing it again is

20     that it was put together from left to right, so that the holes that were

21     made were made on the right-hand side of the column so that we would lose

22     as little text as possible.  If the holes were punched on the left-hand

23     side, we would have lost more text.  So we sort of worked from left to

24     right with the material.

25             Yes, I remember this binder well.

Page 5303

 1        Q.   You were asked yesterday, I think it was, some questions about

 2     whether or not it contained certain notes or -- or indications?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And I'd just ask to you flip through that and see if you see any

 5     such notes.  There may be some, but there might not be, but I'd just ask

 6     to you take a look.

 7        A.   In flipping through it, it doesn't appear that there are any

 8     notes on any of the conversations in this binder.

 9        Q.   And does it appear to be in relatively the same condition as it

10     was when it was received?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And does it contain the -- well, does it contain page numbers?

13        A.   It does.

14        Q.   And is there an indication in the binder itself?  It may be on

15     the last page although I'm not sure as to how many pages it actually

16     contains.

17        A.   The last page says 548 pages, and it runs through ERN number

18     00728099.  And these are handwritten page numbers on the top right corner

19     of each page.

20        Q.   Do you know if those numbers were placed there by members of the

21     Tribunal or members of the 2nd Corps?

22        A.   I believe when we received these, these were -- these numbers

23     were already here.

24        Q.   Okay.  And does it contain the same indications that you'd

25     mentioned during the course of your testimony with respect to the black

Page 5304

 1     marks at the bottom of the page, where certain illegible portions as a

 2     result of the photocopying?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And is that present intermittently or is it present throughout

 5     the binder?

 6        A.   It appears to be present throughout binder.

 7        Q.   Does that comport with your recollection?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   All right.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I don't have any more questions with respect to

11     this document.  I would, however, like to, as we say back home, publish

12     this, that is, to have the Court examine it should the Court desire to

13     see it.  I think it's -- it's a very probative of the witness's testimony

14     and I think it will help the Court understand the circumstances that the

15     witness was talking about in relation to the analysis of this material.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, Mr. Vanderpuye, the Chamber would like to

17     see it.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Very well, Mr. President.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the Defence should have the chance to look at

20     it as well.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.  I have already shown it to Mr. Gajic,

22     although I have not shown it yet to Mr. Tolimir.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I don't need to see it.

24     Mr. Gajic has seen it.  Thank you.  If Mr. Gajic has seen it.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, did you see it?  Have you had the

Page 5305

 1     chance to look at this binder?

 2             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just briefly for some

 3     15 seconds or so.  Therefore, I would really like to have a better look

 4     at it, if possible.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will give you the opportunity to do that.

 6             Just a moment.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber had, I think, 30 seconds to look at

 9     it, but it appears that the last page has the number 00728100.  The

10     witness saw the -- the second-last page as the last, but there's no other

11     difference.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct, Mr. President.  8100 is the last

13     page, and I believe that particular document indicates the number of

14     pages that are in the binder and is stamped as well.  It is very faint.

15     I think we saw it in e-court a couple of days ago.  But I believe

16     that's -- that's correct.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the first number appears to be 00727551.

18     Thank you.  The binder should be given to Mr. Gajic.

19             While Mr. Gajic is looking at it, I think you may proceed and

20     continue your examination.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr.  President.

22        Q.   Ms. Frease, I wanted to refer you to a memo.  That is P863.  That

23     is a memo from Peter Nicholson to Mr. Ruez.  I think you commented on it.

24     It's dated 18 -- oh, maybe I have the wrong number.  P811.  And that's

25     dated 18 December 1998, and it -- it is a memo from Peter Nicholson and

Page 5306

 1     Rick Butler to Mr. Ruez.

 2             Do you remember commenting about that?

 3        A.   I'd need you to refresh my recollection.  I do remember the memo.

 4        Q.   Okay.  In particular, you were asked about the circumstances

 5     under which the notebooks of the 2nd Corps intercepts or the intercepts

 6     taken by the 2nd Corps were found and in particular you remarked -- if I

 7     may refresh your recollection, on page 5254 of the transcript, you

 8     remarked as follows.  A question was put to you by Mr. Tolimir.

 9             "My question to you is:  Did you check these registration numbers

10     on the notebooks, because I've seen here that some of them do not have

11     numbers, and can you tell us what could be the reason why they would be

12     marked and treated as official documents and documentation and later

13     burned?"

14             And your answer was:

15             "The only thing I remember is that when the members of the

16     Office of the Prosecutor first found the notebooks at the northern site,

17     that the ABiH person with them was embarrassed that they were not kept in

18     an orderly manner and then he also said, Actually we shouldn't have these

19     anymore."

20             Do you remember that part of your testimony?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   All right.  And what I'd like to do is just to refer to you, if I

23     could, to page 2 of this document.  Okay.  And if you look to the -- I

24     guess it would be the fourth paragraph, fourth full paragraph anyway.

25     You can see it begins with:  "They were located in a locked wooden

Page 5307

 1     cabinet in the basement," referring to the notebooks.

 2             And then after you can see the next sentence, I guess it's the

 3     thirds sentence, it says:

 4             "In fact they were just haphazardly placed in the cabinet and did

 5     not look as if they had been touched in years.  And then an ABiH official

 6     explained in an embarrassed manner that the logs should not even be here

 7     at this stage."

 8             Is that your recollection?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And what I'd like to show you is, a couple of photographs that

11     were attended to this memo.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could show 65 ter 6539.

13        Q.   While that is loading, can I ask you, do you have a specific

14     recollection of how the notebooks were found or where they were found?

15        A.   Only from what I was told.

16        Q.   And if we could --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just for the record, the original binder was

18     given back to the Prosecution.

19             Please carry on.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Have you seen this photograph before, Ms. Frease?

22        A.   I don't remember having seen it.

23        Q.   Okay.  What it's described as in the memo --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it shouldn't be broadcast.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  You're right.  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 5308

 1        Q.   In the memo itself, in the last paragraph of the second page, it

 2     indicates -- it reads as follows:

 3             "Upon reaching the wooden locker, we observed that it was open

 4     and that all of the documents had been organised and bundled."

 5             And then it indicates a series of photos, 1, 2, and 3.

 6             Now, have you seen any photographs, I should say, of the locker

 7     in which these intercepts were found?

 8        A.   I don't think I have, no.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay, and if we could just blow this up a little

10     bit.  That would be in the right -- I'm sorry, the left quadrant of the

11     photograph, if could you blow that up a little bit.  I think it would

12     be ... the left top, I'm sorry.

13        Q.   Are you able to recognise any of the documents that you see there

14     in the left-hand side of that photograph, that pile of books?

15        A.   They look like A-5 size notebooks.

16        Q.   And they similar to the style, I should say, and quality --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.  Mr. Tolimir wants to raise

18     something.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20             To the Prosecutor's question, the witness said that she never saw

21     this photo, and then she stated that she only has second-hand knowledge

22     of the photo and now she is being asked questions based on the photo

23     having seen photos in the courtroom.

24             I don't think this should be done.

25             Secondly, the Prosecutor mentions intercepted conversations which

Page 5309

 1     means that the intercepted conversations were printed after the war,

 2     after the photos were seen.  These are just handwritten notes in the

 3     notebooks and only subsequently were those copied and made into printed

 4     intercepted conversations.

 5             Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             I do appreciate Mr. Tolimir's position.  It seems to me that that

 9     is his position as a matter of fact in this case.  The questions that are

10     put to the witness are completely appropriate since we have already

11     established that the witness has first-hand familiarity with the

12     notebooks themselves, and I'm asking her to identify, if she can, the

13     documents that are depicted in this photograph as distinguished from

14     identifying the photograph itself.  And so I think it is a perfectly

15     appropriate avenue of examination, and if the witness can identify them,

16     then she can.  If she can't, she can't.  I think it's a pretty

17     straightforward issue.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, if you use this photo for that

20     purpose, if the witness is recognising anything depicted in this

21     photograph, you should continue.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   Ms. Frease, are you able to make out -- I think I was asking

24     whether or not these apparent notebooks bear similarity to the notebooks

25     that you handled back in 1998 and 1999.

Page 5310

 1        A.   The stack on the left looks like a stack of A-5 size children's

 2     notebooks.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And does that fairly describe the materials that were

 4     handed over?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   All right.  I'd like to show you another photograph, if I could.

 7     And that's the second photograph.  I think it's page 2 here.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And if we could just zoom in a little bit on the

 9     light blue notebook you can see there in the left corner.  Maybe a little

10     bit more.  Okay.  That's not bad.

11        Q.   Are you able to recognise any of the items that you see in this

12     photograph?

13        A.   The -- yes.  I mean, some of them also appear to be these A-5

14     size children's notebooks.  The one in the foreground, next to the

15     ashtray, looks like one that was -- could have been used during that same

16     period and also the blueish one on the stack, to the left.

17        Q.   All right.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20             I believe that the Prosecutor should phrase his questions

21     differently.  He says, Do you recognise the -- this object?  And then she

22     says yes, and then she says, I think it's similar.

23             We can't see the contents.  We don't see the handwriting.  I

24     think that questions could be phrased differently without suggesting that

25     the notebook is indeed the one in question without inspecting its

Page 5311

 1     contents, without looking at the handwriting.

 2             Thank you.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, indeed, you should be careful by

 5     phrasing your questions.  They shouldn't occur as -- or appear as leading

 6     questions.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr.  President.  I would just -- I

 8     would just point out that my question was, are you able to recognise any

 9     of the items that you see in this photograph, which I don't think --

10     other than the fact that I'm referring to items, I don't think is leading

11     in any respect to what they are, where they are, or any specific item.

12     But I -- I do take your point and I will be attentive to that issue.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Connect your question with the request of the

14     Usher to focus on the light blue item on the left top side of the

15     photograph, then I think it's merely on the border.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, you're right.  Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   I'd like to show you -- well, let me ask you, do you recall how

18     these notebooks were actually transferred, in what condition notebooks

19     were transferred to the members of the Tribunal?

20        A.   They were put in a box and sealed until the Office of the

21     Prosecutor took possession of them, once they had been transported from

22     the site to 2 Corps down in Tuzla.

23        Q.   I'd like to show you page 5 -- I may be mistaken.  Page 8, I'm

24     sorry.

25             Do you recognise this?

Page 5312

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And what do you recognise it to be?

 3        A.   A box that Peter Nicholson and a member of the 2 Corps signed

 4     their names on after sealing it with the contents, and the contents being

 5     the notebooks.

 6             So on the subsequent mission in April of 1998, when I was in

 7     Tuzla, I was shown this box and saw this box and the notebooks were

 8     contained within it.

 9        Q.   And you can see on here on this photograph there's a date,

10     11 March 1998, on the box itself.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Is that of any particular significance?

13        A.   It was the day that the box was sealed.  There was also a sense,

14     or maybe a hope on the side of the Office of the Prosecutor, that the --

15     those documents would be handed over on that day.  We didn't find out

16     until the 12th of March that, in fact, the Office of the Prosecutor would

17     need to wait for approval from the Ministry of Defence, I believe it was,

18     from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19        Q.   I'd just like to show you one other photograph, and that's -- I

20     think it's page 9.

21             Do you recognise what's depicted here?

22        A.   Yes.  That's the same box.

23        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender these

25     photographs.  I suppose I should do it as we go.  They all fall under

Page 5313

 1     65 ter 6539.  There are ten of them in all, but I haven't shown the

 2     witness all of them.  They were all, however -- well, no, I'm sorry.

 3     1 through 6 of them are referred to specifically in P863 -- I'm sorry,

 4     P811.  That is the memo itself.  Photographs 1, 2, and 3 are referred to

 5     in this last paragraph -- and 4, I should say, are referred to in the

 6     last paragraph of page 2 of the document.  And photos 5 and 6 are

 7     referred to and indicate the box or refer to -- and the last page, the

 8     third page, of the -- of the exhibit.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They will be received.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P998.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I do realise that P811 as it is

13     in e-court has certain redactions and those redactions I think survived

14     the last trial so that the document could be made public.  We do have an

15     unredacted version which I would like to have the Court -- like to -- to

16     be before the Court in addition to the -- to the redacted version, which

17     I suppose we can upload, and perhaps we can designate it A or B of -- of

18     P811 so that's it clear and the Court has full information concerning the

19     participants in this -- in this mission and that are referred to

20     specifically in the -- in the -- in the memo.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This document should not be broadcast.  If you

22     are now calling it up in e-court.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's not actually in e-court yet, so ...

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Microphone not activated] ... see the purpose of

25     tendering that document if it is not in e-court yet.  We have the public

Page 5314

 1     redacted version.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this is sufficient.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.

 5             I will move to my next area and last area, actually.

 6        Q.   During the course of your cross-examination, it was suggested in

 7     a number of ways that the ABiH and Bosnian MUP fabricated the intercept

 8     evidence, the suggestion that they perhaps received this information from

 9     other sources, the Americans and other -- other countries operating in

10     the area during the war, was made.  And, in particular, you were asked a

11     number of questions, including -- and I would refer to page 5250,

12     3 through 12.  The question was put to as follows:

13             "Q.  Thank you.  What I'm asking you is this:  We have seen

14     quotes from the report on Srebrenica of the Dutch Institute for War

15     Documentation.  It's a very serious and voluminous analysis which you can

16     read and then make the conclusion that you just made, but my question is:

17     Did the OTP analyse at all how many people were needed on the southern

18     and northern location to be able to monitor the radio network of the

19     Army of Republika Srpska at the time the events in Srebrenica and Zepa --

20     of the events in Srebrenica and Zepa to intercept them, transcribe them

21     in realtime and put them into notebooks and on paper and pass this on to

22     their immediate superiors and up to the highest level of command?"

23             And your answer was:  "No."

24             You were also shown a document which was P -- I'm sorry, D48, and

25     you were read, in part, the following quote:

Page 5315

 1             "Nonetheless, an ABiH General claimed that the messages were

 2     actually intercepted and analysed in realtime and it was your

 3     understanding that they were," that is the ABiH was, "actually able to

 4     process intercepts in realtime."

 5             Do you recall those parts of your testimony?

 6        A.   I recall the first part.  I do not recall the second part which

 7     is quoted as:  "Nonetheless an ABiH General claimed that the messages

 8     were actually intercepted ..."

 9             I don't recall the part about an ABiH General claimed that the

10     messages were actually intercepted and analysed.

11        Q.   I'm sorry, that's not your statement.  That's a statement from

12     Exhibit D48, which was a document that was put to you by Mr. Tolimir.

13     That's just a quote from the book.

14        A.   That helps, thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, just for the sake of the record,

16     in page 13, line 21, I think it's the wrong reference recorded.  It

17     should read page 5250, lines 3 through 12; is that correct?

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That is correct, 5250, 3 through 12.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, but the 3 was connected to the page number.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:

23        Q.   First, is it your understanding, while the document that was

24     shown to you by Mr. Tolimir spoke about deficiencies in the ability of

25     the Bosnian army to intercept radio and radio relay communications, it

Page 5316

 1     did not refer to any specific weaknesses on the part of the VRS in terms

 2     of their ability to protect their radio communications?  Is it your

 3     understanding that the ABiH intercepted VRS communications in realtime,

 4     based upon your investigation and based upon the information that you've

 5     gotten from talking with operators and so on?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And do you know whether the VRS and in particular the security

 8     organ of the VRS was aware that the ABiH had the ability to actually

 9     intercept their radio communications?

10        A.   Yes, it appeared so.  It came through their responses at times,

11     amongst themselves, that they didn't want to discuss certain subjects

12     over the radio.

13        Q.   I'd like to show you a document.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It should be 65 ter 2600, 2-6-0-0.

15             While this is loading, Ms. Stewart has reminded me that P998,

16     those -- the set of photographs should be under seal, so I would ask for

17     them to be placed under seal, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Microphone not activated] ... one photo should

19     be under seal.  Why the whole set?

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  They all apparently indicate the location of the

21     site.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  More than the other photos than the first one.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I believe so.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They will be received under seal.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 5317

 1        Q.   Okay.  What I'm showing you here is a document, as can you see

 2     from the title of it, it's -- it indicates Military Post 7469, Zvornik.

 3     It says "Security organ."  If we go down to the bottom of the page we can

 4     see that it signed by chief of the security, chief of security,

 5     Lieutenant Drago Nikolic, is what it says; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And this is the Drago Nikolic you testified about before in your

 8     direct examination?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And I'd like to draw your attention specifically to the first

11     paragraph of this document.  You can see that it is dated

12     22nd April 1993, and it's directed to the intelligence organ.  The first

13     paragraph of it reads as follows:

14             "NATO planes conducted electronic jamming and reconnaissance a

15     few times as part of the padobran," indicating parachute, "and zabranjeni

16     letovi," no-fly operations.  "We have confirmation that the enemy is

17     intensively intercepting our radio and radio relay communications and

18     particularly active are their interception centres in Tuzla and at Trovrh

19     (Gorazde)."

20             Now, have you seen this document before?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   And the representations that are made here by Lieutenant Nikolic,

23     are they consistent with your understanding of the capabilities of the

24     ABiH in terms of intercepting VRS radio communications?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5318

 1        Q.   I'd like to show you another document.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the document

 4     itself it says that NATO is doing such and such things, NATO is

 5     reconnoitring and jamming, and now the question to the witness refers to

 6     the BH Army.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think Mr. Tolimir is referring to the first

 9     line of the document.  The second sentence of the document refers

10     specifically to radio and radio relay communications which are active at

11     interception centres in Tuzla and Trovrh.

12             I don't know if Mr. Tolimir is representing that NATO had

13     interception centres in Tuzla and in Trovrh, but if that is not the case,

14     then it seems to me that the only reasonable inference from this document

15     is that the enemy that's being spoken about in that sentence is the

16     enemy -- is the -- is the -- is the ABiH.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The first sentence says clearly

19     NATO and then it goes on to say that it is the enemy.  There's nothing to

20     say that NATO was not another enemy, because they acted against all Serb

21     positions.  And these locations referred to here, they are listening and

22     intercepting centres.  The text does not say who established them.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think there are many possibilities

24     to -- for interpretation of this sentence.  It is not the right time

25     to -- to continue this discussion about interpretation.  At the end of

Page 5319

 1     the day, the Court will have to give weight to that.

 2             Mr. Tolimir.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would offer this --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir --

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Sorry.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- wanted to say something.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             It is common knowledge that in the war in Bosnia, Tuzla was the

 9     centre of all NATO activities.  NATO had an air field there.  They even

10     set up their own centres on Mount Majevica.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Vanderpuye.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would like to tender this document into

14     evidence.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber will not receive this document as an

17     exhibit because this witness was not able to identify this document.  She

18     hasn't seen it before and can't comment the content of this document,

19     only her -- she was referring to her knowledge about some things also

20     mentioned in this document.  But the document is not -- will not be

21     received.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  May I have the

23     document at least marked for identification so that it's clear what the

24     witness was referring to when it is introduced through the proper

25     vehicle.

Page 5320

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be marked for identification, and you may

 2     use it with another witness, if there's an appropriate one.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much.  I have another such --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 2600 will be Exhibit P999 [Realtime

 6     transcript read in error "P99"], marked for identification.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have another such document which I'd like to

 8     show the witness.  Unfortunately, I don't think we have a translation of

 9     this one, so maybe you can -- oh, we do.  Okay.  We have a translation of

10     it.  That's 65 ter 5283, please.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Considering this document is going

13     to be marked for identification, I feel it is my duty to say that these

14     are not the northern and southern sites, and these facilities do not

15     belong to the northern and southern sites about which this witness is

16     testifying.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I understand you, but this document

18     is not in evidence and will not be in evidence.  It is just marked for

19     identification so that everybody knows what it -- what we were talking

20     about today.  Unless it will be received through another witness.

21             Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   This document you can see here is from the command of the

24     Drina Corps and it's dated 23 June 1995.  Have you seen this one before?

25        A.   No.

Page 5321

 1        Q.   Okay.  And you can see that it's signed by, at least type-signed

 2     by Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic.  Is that the same Vujadin Popovic

 3     that you spoke about during your direct examination?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And can you see here that it's addressed to the security chiefs

 6     of a number of VRS units --

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   -- the 1st -- 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, 5th Podrinje

 9     Light Infantry Brigade, the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, Birac Brigade,

10     Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade and so on?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And it is entitled "Discipline in radio communication followed by

13     observation"?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I would direct your attention to the first paragraph of this

16     document which reads that:

17             "Through reconnaissance on the enemy's radio communications and

18     information transmitted via radio, we have obtained information that our

19     units are extremely careless when using communications equipment and do

20     not verify the cryptographic data protection value of the communications

21     equipment."

22             It then goes on to say:

23             "Take all measures to ensure that these devices are not used to

24     send documents classed confidential and higher, for they offer

25     practically no protection of confidentiality.  They may be used solely

Page 5322

 1     for transmitting less important information of an urgent nature --"

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  "With mandatory use of general cryptographic

 4     data protection documents."

 5             The last paragraph reads:

 6             "We hereby call attention to the application of general

 7     cryptographic data protection documents and more frequent changes of

 8     working frequencies and call-signs, which would better ensure -- which

 9     would ensure better protection for the information transmitted."

10        Q.   In terms of the observation concerning the careless use of

11     communications equipment, does that correspond with your understanding

12     concerning VRS radio communications, how they were conducted?

13        A.   Yes.  And I can give a couple of examples from comments that

14     radio intercept operators made.  One of the comments was that the VRS

15     very rarely, if ever, changed their frequencies and call-signs and for

16     that reason it made it easy for them to intercept VRS communication.

17             Yesterday -- during yesterday's session I also mentioned an

18     incident, I believe it was in 1993, when BiH radio operators had

19     intercepted an important Serb communication and had broadcast it and

20     exposed at that point their ability to do so.  After that, they were --

21     the BiH was much more careful about protecting their ability to intercept

22     VRS communication.  But, as I mentioned, they did talk about their

23     ability to do so because the VRS very infrequently, if ever, changed the

24     frequencies on which they were communicating and the call-signs that they

25     were using.

Page 5323

 1        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Frease.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I have the same application as I

 3     did with the other document.  I think I would ask to move this into

 4     evidence but seeing it -- in view of the Court's position on that, I will

 5     ask to have it marked for identification, to be used with another

 6     witness.

 7             THE WITNESS:  I would also -- I don't know whether I have the

 8     right to note this or not, but during Friday's session when the defendant

 9     suggested that the MUP and the BiH fabricated this material, it was also

10     suggested and insinuated that I had had improper contact with either one

11     or both of these groups during that time and that I had possibly violated

12     terms of confidentiality of the Tribunal.  And I simply want to make

13     clear that none of that is true.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that statement.

15             The document on the screen will be marked for identification so

16     that everybody knows what we were talking about today.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1000.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have one last

19     document to show the witness and that's 65 ter 5703.  Thank you.

20        Q.   As can you see, this document is from the Main Staff of the Army

21     of Republika Srpska.  It is from the sector for intelligence and security

22     of the security administration, and it's dated 1st September 1995.  As

23     can you see in the -- in the first paragraph it is directed to the

24     security departments of the 1st Krajina Corps, the 2nd Krajina Corps,

25     East Bosnia Corps, and the Drina Corps, among others.  And it is -- I

Page 5324

 1     want to direct your attention to the second paragraph from the bottom of

 2     this document, and it reads that:

 3             "As everyone is aware of and since the Main Staff and lower

 4     command has called to your attention many times, the secret military

 5     information leak constantly via communication means (radio relay devices

 6     and radio stations)."

 7             If we go to the next page in English - same page in B/C/S - we

 8     can see at the -- in the -- well, the first complete paragraph on the

 9     page.  It says:

10             "Many times so far we learned through electronic reconnaissance

11     that the communication means are being used without caution and that

12     secret military information is leaking.  Every time we learned about

13     careless use of communication means we advised the units.  Keeping all of

14     this in mind, as you already know, the purpose of our radio

15     reconnaissance unit is not to monitor and spy on our communication but

16     only enemy communications and in the system of securing the intelligence

17     of combat operations [sic] so that we learn only by accident the

18     information about negligence in use of our communications.

19             "We are giving you the latest example of careless use of

20     communication means ..."

21             And it follows through with an intercepted communication.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we can go to the next page I think in both

23     documents, page 2 in B/C/S and page 3 in the English.

24        Q.   You see the full text of this intercept, or at least some text of

25     the intercept.  And it concludes that:

Page 5325

 1             "It is necessary to start again an initiative through corps

 2     commands and lower commands, down to the last user of the radio relay and

 3     radio communications to use protected lines and coded teletype

 4     communication to the maximum, and in case they use radio communications

 5     [sic] to do it carefully and with maximum usage of coded books or TUS,"

 6     it reads, "expansion unknown."

 7             On the right, you can see that this document was type-signed by

 8     Ljubisa Beara.  Is that the same Ljubisa Beara that you referred to your

 9     direct testimony?

10        A.   His title is different here, but to my knowledge, there is only

11     one Ljubisa Beara.

12        Q.   And --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, if you look at the B/C/S version

14     we only see "Ljubisa Bea," and there is a line going down --

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  You're right.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You don't see the name you were quoting.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  You're right.  I see it in the translation and I

18     apologise for that.  I hadn't noticed the -- the indication in the -- in

19     the B/C/S.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Correction for the record, you see only

21     "Ljubisa Bea."  B-e-a.  B-e-a, again.  The transcript is wrong.  We only

22     see "Ljubisa Bea," B-e-a, in the B/C/S version.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:

24        Q.   Do you know what position Ljubisa Beara held in the VRS?

25        A.   During the events in July of 1999 [sic], he was the chief of

Page 5326

 1     security for the Main Staff of the VRS.

 2        Q.   All right.  Just for the record, you -- the record records that

 3     said 1999?

 4        A.   Oh.  1995.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And in terms of the substance of this document, does this

 6     comport with your understanding of how VRS radio relay and radio

 7     communications were conducted during 1995 in particular?  The reference

 8     here is that --

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we can go to the first page in the English

10     and I think the first page in the B/C/S as well.

11        Q.   And I was just referring you specifically to Colonel Beara's

12     observation that everyone is aware - in the second paragraph - that

13     military information leaks constantly through a communication means,

14     radio relay devices and radio stations.

15             Does that correspond with your understanding of the way VRS

16     communications were conducted during that period of time?

17        A.   Yes.  In the intercepted communication, there were a number of

18     references to -- by VRS officials who said that they did not want to talk

19     about particular subjects over the radio.  And there were references, I

20     remember even later than 1995, July of 1995, where someone was being

21     reprimanded on the radio for the way that he was using it and the

22     information that he was conveying over it.

23             With respect to this document and the title of the person who

24     signed the document, I don't -- haven't seen the English translation of

25     the person who signed it but I think it said "chief" and then -- well,

Page 5327

 1     maybe we can just go to the last page and to the translation and how --

 2     what that person is called.

 3             So it's translated here as "Chief Naval Captain Ljubisa B-e-a."

 4     That's a -- strikes me as a slightly odd way for him to be referred to in

 5     September of 1995, but I am not a military expert.  However, I do know

 6     that Ljubisa Beara had been in the navy in the JNA, in the

 7     Yugoslav National Army.

 8        Q.   Thank you for that, Ms. Frease.

 9             In terms of the substance of the intercept that is recorded in

10     this particular document, the Prosecutor has a tape of this conversation

11     which, unfortunately, you've not had the benefit of hearing.  For the

12     record, the transcription of that tape is ERN 05440181 through 05440183,

13     obtained from the Tesanj State Security office.

14             But, that aside, having seen these documents, particularly

15     authored by members and chiefs of the security administration or organ of

16     the VRS from 1993 through 1995, can you tell us how these documents

17     relate to the conclusion that you've reached about the reliability and

18     authenticity of Bosnian intercepts and interceptors?

19        A.   Yes.  Just with respect to the first part of your statement, in

20     fact, I may have seen the transcript of this document, and it could be

21     the one that I was referring to up above, where I remembered that there

22     had been this fairly lengthy reprimand of the way that the radio

23     communication was being used and that it was after the events of

24     Srebrenica in July of 1995.  So, in fact, we could be talking about the

25     same thing.

Page 5328

 1             With respect to the second part of your statement, these

 2     documents are consistent with, and I would say support, the conclusions

 3     of authenticity and the reliability of the Bosnian intercepts.  I would

 4     say that they go more to the authenticity of the Bosnian intercepts,

 5     because I think of reliability more in terms of the internal procedures

 6     that were followed in the process of interception.

 7        Q.   Well, thank you very much for that, Ms. Frease.  That concludes

 8     my re-direct examination.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'm not sure if I've offered this

10     one for -- for admission.  I think I'll make the same application and

11     have it marked for identification.  It's 65 ter 5703.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be marked for identification.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Exhibit P1001, marked for

15     identification.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my learned friend

18     from the Prosecution, in his additional examination, raised some issues

19     that were not dealt with in the examination-in-chief, and in that sense,

20     I think I would -- I think I -- I would have a -- the right to pose some

21     additional questions to the witness to deal with the questions that

22     Mr. Vanderpuye has just asked.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, would you like to comment on the

Page 5329

 1     request of Mr. Tolimir?

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President, thank you.

 3             Mr. President, I have addressed specific areas of the

 4     cross-examination which I think I have prefaced with respect to every

 5     area that I went into.  I don't know that Mr. Tolimir has identified any

 6     specific area which was not responsive to the cross-examination and which

 7     fundamentally raised issues that are new altogether.  The documents that

 8     I presented the witness with go specifically to the issue that was raised

 9     by Mr. Tolimir or the assertion that Mr. Tolimir raised during his

10     cross-examination that the Bosnian authorities or the army and the MUP

11     did not have the capacity to intercept communications, VRS

12     communications.  It is our position that what the documents show is

13     precisely the opposite.  Not only the opposite but that that was

14     specifically known and acknowledged by members of the VRS and, in

15     particular, by members of the security organ over whom the accused had a

16     superior/subordinate relationship, and, therefore, it would have been

17     known to the accused.  At least arguably.

18             There's nothing new in that.  There's nothing new in the

19     documents that I have used in terms of their relationship to the points

20     that were raised by the accused.  If he is prepared to identify the

21     specific areas of re-direct examination which he thinks are new and

22     require him to address the witness and the Court, then I -- then I think

23     it could be appropriate.  But in -- I don't think it's appropriate in the

24     context of a blanket statement simply asserting that there's something

25     new in the record that he needs to address.  If can he particularise it,

Page 5330

 1     then I think it is something that we can more appropriately address and

 2     deal with.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, do you want to respond to that?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Yes, of

 5     course.

 6             For example, here, this is 65 ter 6539, Prosecutor's document,

 7     which was drafted on the 1st of September, 1995, after the events that

 8     we're talking about.  Could this document, 65 ter 6539, be displayed to

 9     display the date when it was drafted.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a moment, Mr. Tolimir.

11             My question was not -- it was if you want to comment on this

12     statement of Mr. Vanderpuye.  Otherwise, first, the Chamber would like to

13     issue a decision.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.  Yes, of course.

15             Mr. Vanderpuye was dealing with the issue of frequencies of the

16     Army of Republika Srpska which is something that he didn't do during his

17     main body of examination-in-chief.  If that's what you had in mind when

18     you asked me about my basis for additional questions that I wish to put

19     to the witness.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber is of the view that it would be in

22     the interests of a fair trial to give Mr. Tolimir the opportunity to put

23     some additional questions to the witness.  The Chamber has the discretion

24     to grant his request, and you should put some additional questions to the

25     witness.

Page 5331

 1             Mr. Tolimir, now please proceed.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Could

 3     the court please produce 65 ter 6539, a Prosecutor's document, which was

 4     displayed just a while ago.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This should not be broadcast; it's under seal.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, I'm -- asked for 6539.

 7     That's the document that I asked for.  The last document about Beara,

 8     where Beara's name is not complete, the one that the witness has just

 9     commented upon.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, that was 65 ter 5703.  I --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before it is displayed to avoid

13     wasting time, we were talking about frequencies.

14                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Could the witness please tell us whether, during

16     her investigation work, she checked the frequency of changes of the

17     frequencies of the Army of Republika Srpska, or whether she made her

18     inferences based on other people's comments.

19        A.   I based my statement on information obtained from the radio

20     intercept operators who were working at the two sites that we've been

21     discussing.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you check how often the frequencies changed,

23     based on the communications plan and the frequencies that the members of

24     the VRS used during combat around Zepa and Srebrenica?

25        A.   No.  As I stated, what I had heard from the radio intercept

Page 5332

 1     operators was that the VRS did not changed frequencies very frequently

 2     and, therefore, it made it easy for them to know which frequencies to pay

 3     attention to.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You said no and then you continued.  For the record,

 5     I asked you whether you checked the plan of frequencies used in the Zepa

 6     and Srebrenica operations, and you said yes.

 7             Please, do you know what a frequency plan is?  And while you were

 8     conducting your investigations, did you have that to your hand?  Did the

 9     VRS provide you with a frequency plan while you were carrying out your

10     investigations?

11        A.   No.  The VRS did not provide me with a frequency plan while we

12     were carrying out our investigations.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did the BiH Army have decoding equipment with which

14     it could deal with the encrypted messages that they intercepted from the

15     VRS Army?  Did they have such equipment at south and north sites?

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             First, this is an area that Mr. Tolimir already went over in

19     cross-examination, in terms of the equipment that the BiH Army had.  And,

20     secondly, it seems to me plainly beyond the scope of the re-direct

21     examination.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, take your account that our decision

25     to grant your request to continue your cross-examination, it was an

Page 5333

 1     exception, and, therefore, you should focus on the matters Mr. Vanderpuye

 2     has raised during his re-direct.  What you are now asking has nothing to

 3     do with this document you have called up on the screen again.  You should

 4     really refer to -- to that area Mr. Vanderpuye was discussing with the

 5     witness.  He did not -- he didn't discuss --

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- technical equipment or decoding or encryption

 8     of communication.  Please focus on that area.

 9             Carry on, please.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  In the

11     documents that Mr. Vanderpuye presented during his additional questions,

12     both Mr. Popovic and Mr. Beara indicate that encryption equipment was

13     used.  That was part of the additional examination.  And now, I would

14     like to present documents that were encrypted and here they are

15     represented as having been sent from the facilities that didn't have

16     encryption equipment.  So when I display these documents, maybe the Court

17     will be clearer on what I'm driving at.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Microphone not activated]

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could the witness just briefly say whether there were pieces of

21     equipment at northern or southern site which could decode encrypted

22     messages, yes or no.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I believe the

25     Trial Chamber has already ruled on this particular application, and

Page 5334

 1     this -- that's number one.

 2             Number two is, the specific area that I discussed with the

 3     witness had to do with radio relay and radio communications which I

 4     repeated on a number of occasions in prefacing my questions to the

 5     witness.

 6             What he's talking about now are encrypted documents which are not

 7     radio communications and they're not radio relay communications.  So,

 8     again, he is beyond the scope of the re-direct examination.  Moreover,

 9     the -- decrypting physical documents are not the subject of the intercept

10     material that we've been discussing, of which you've heard evidence, of

11     which Ms. Frease has testified about and a number of witnesses testified

12     about in this case.  The scope of Ms. Frease's testimony is about audio

13     radio intercept communications.  That's what it has been about.  It's

14     always been about that.  And that is what it was during course of

15     cross-examination and direct and re-direct examination, and so this is an

16     entirely new area that Mr. Tolimir failed to raise on cross-examination,

17     which did not see the light of day during the Prosecution's re-direct

18     examination, and shouldn't, at this point, given the exceptionality of

19     the Trial Chamber's decision and the specific parameters in which he has

20     been permitted to put questions to the witness, it shouldn't be allowed

21     to stand.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber has indeed ruled on that

23     and you should focus on those areas which were part of the re-direct,

24     especially frequencies but not technical equipment.  And your last

25     question put to the witness was not appropriate.

Page 5335

 1             Do you have other questions?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  But this was

 3     treated in all the three documents as protection measures, in Nikolic's

 4     document, in Popovic's document, as well as in Beara documents that were

 5     read for the witness.  I can quote from the documents if you wish me to.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, there was a reason why we didn't

 7     accept these documents and they were not received in evidence.  And

 8     Mr. Vanderpuye didn't ask questions related to these areas but only in

 9     relation to the possibility of the BiH Army to intercept communication of

10     the VRS.  Please focus on that.

11             The documents are not in evidence.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13             The Prosecutor's claim was that I had claimed that the

14     communications of the VRS could not be intercepted.  And in my additional

15     questions, I claim that under realistic circumstances, the Army of Bosnia

16     and Herzegovina could not intercept those communications, and that's why

17     this witness could not have any materials to process.  She only received

18     them in 2000 or 2001.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could the witness please now say whether I asked her about the

21     possibilities of interception or the realtime interception in which

22     certain information had to be obtained and conveyed to certain levels and

23     users.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you have dealt with that problem in

25     your cross-examination extensively.  This is not a new question about

Page 5336

 1     realtime intercepting and conveying messages to other institutions.  That

 2     is not a new part, and it's not related to the re-direct of the

 3     Prosecution.  And you are not giving evidence.

 4             Please, if you have an additional question in relation to the

 5     re-direct, you should put it to the witness.  Otherwise, you should stop

 6     your additional cross-examination.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I will

 8     finish with this, and I have no further questions, since you will give it

 9     a negative assessment anyway.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

11             Is there anything further, Mr. Vanderpuye?

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Frease, you will be pleased to here that this

15     concludes your examination.  The Chamber would like to thank you, that

16     you were able to stay with us for so many days.  Thank you for your

17     answers and your knowledge you were able to provide.  And now are you

18     free to return to your normal activities.

19             Thank you very much again.

20             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to make one correction on the

23     record.  One moment.  One document we received -- no, we didn't receive

24     but marked for identification was P999.  It is recorded on page 19,

25     line 8, as P99.

Page 5337

 1             With this correction, I think we must have our first break, and I

 2     suppose the next witness will be ready for examination.

 3             We have our break now and resume at 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The next witness should be brought in, please.

 7             And I would like to mention that the requests of the Defence not

 8     to sit on the 27th of September was granted.  The hearing of that day was

 9     cancelled because of a religious ceremony the accused wants to take part

10     in, and he receives family members [indiscernible].

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr.  President.  Thank

13     you for your approval.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir.  Would you please read aloud

15     the affirmation on the card that is shown to you now.

16             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

17     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

19             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, for the Prosecution, has some

21     questions for you.

22             Mr. Thayer.

23             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you and

24     to Your Honours.  Good morning, General Tolimir, to the Defence.  Good

25     morning, everyone.

Page 5338

 1                           WITNESS:  JOSEPH KINGORI

 2                           Examination by Mr. Thayer:

 3        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 4        A.   Good morning, sir.

 5        Q.   Would please state your name for the record.

 6        A.   My name is Colonel Joseph Gichuhi Kingori, and if you mind I can

 7     spell my last name.  That is Kingori, K-i-n-g-o-r-i.

 8        Q.   And if you would please, the middle name as well.  I think we

 9     could use the spelling for that too.

10        A.   I spell Gichuhi.  G-i-c-h-u-h-i.

11        Q.   Okay.  Sir, do you recall testifying in the Popovic case over I

12     think it was five days in this courtroom, in fact, in December 2007 and

13     January of 2008?

14        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

15        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to review that testimony

16     recently?

17        A.   Yes, I had, Your Honour.

18        Q.   And during the course of that review, were there four

19     typographical errors that you detected that you'd like to bring to the

20     Trial Chamber's attention?

21        A.   Yes, Your Honour, there were four.

22        Q.   Okay.  And to save a little bit of time, let me just put them to

23     you and see if you agree with them.

24             For the record, the first is at transcript page 19195, where the

25     word "steal" should be steal -- I'm sorry, I beg your pardon.  The word

Page 5339

 1     "steal" should be "still had," and that's at line 6 of that page.

 2             The second -- and I'd just ask to you confirm whether that's the

 3     case, sir?

 4        A.   Yes, that's the case, sir.

 5        Q.   The next correction was at transcript page 19442, line 1, where

 6     the word "exist" should be replaced with the word "exit?"

 7             Do you recall that, sir?

 8        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I recall that.

 9        Q.   At 19250, line 15, the word "fuming" should be replaced with the

10     word "filming."

11             Is that correct, sir?

12        A.   That's very correct.

13        Q.   And then, finally, at page 19542 of the transcript, and this is

14     line 5, the word "protected" should be replaced with the word

15     "protested."

16             Is that also a correction you wish to make, Colonel?

17        A.   Yes, sir.

18        Q.   Now bearing those four typographical corrections in mind, can you

19     attest that the testimony which you read accurately, that is, your

20     Popovic -- I beg your pardon, the testimony which you read recently, that

21     is your Popovic testimony, accurately reflects what you said in that

22     trial.

23             Can you attest that before this Trial Chamber?

24        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

25        Q.   And, finally, can you attest before this Trial Chamber that, were

Page 5340

 1     you asked the same questions today that you were asked back in the

 2     Popovic trial, that your answers would be the same?

 3        A.   Your Honour, I do.  Actually, all the questions, if asked the

 4     same way, I would answer them the same way.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender P950,

 6     the witness's testimony in the Popovic case, none of which is under seal.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 8             MR. THAYER:  And before I read the 92 ter summary -- I beg your

 9     pardon, the 92 bis with cross/92 ter summary, I would just tender P951 to

10     P997 with just a couple of notations with respect to a couple of the

11     exhibits.  First --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The documents P951 through P983 were used with

13     this witness and admitted into evidence with this witness in the Popovic

14     trial.  Is that correct?

15             MR. THAYER:  That is correct, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received with these P numbers.

17             And then the next, P984 through P991 have been admitted through

18     other witnesses in the Popovic case.

19             MR. THAYER:  That's correct, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They will be received as well with the given

21     numbers.  But I have to mention that P624 was only marked for

22     identification.

23             MR. THAYER:  That's correct, Mr. President.  That's actually one

24     of the items I wanted to note to the Trial Chamber.  That --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will -- therefore, we will deal with that

Page 5341

 1     later, as well as with the numbers P992 through P997.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Yes.  The first thing I wanted to note,

 3     Mr. President, is that and I will start with that last category first, if

 4     I could just address those.  Those documents, as the heading indicates,

 5     were used, that means they were shown to Colonel Kingori in the prior

 6     case but not admitted.  We are offering these to the Trial Chamber simply

 7     to assist the Trial Chamber in makes sense of the transcript.  There were

 8     some portions that were read from these documents.  The -- for example,

 9     the last item, also P997, were video stills which were shown by one of

10     the Defence teams to the Trial Chamber that they made on their own, but

11     were not eventually tendered by that Defence team.  But to help this

12     Trial Chamber make sense of the record, we thought it would be a good

13     idea simply to add those as well.

14             None of these documents I intend to show the Colonel during the

15     course of his -- what I hope to be a brief examination-in-chief this

16     morning, they're simply to assist the Trial Chamber in makes sense of the

17     Popovic record as the Trial Chamber reviews it, and that was the thinking

18     behind adding those to the list.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will receive P992.  This is the OTP's

20     statement of Witness Kingori in the -- to the Prosecution, and we will

21     deal with your motion in respect of the other numbers later.

22             But I have to indicate that there are some documents without a

23     translation yet.  These are P952, P953, P963, P964, P987.  They will be

24     marked for identification, pending translation.

25             And there are two others.  These are P995, P996.  They relate to

Page 5342

 1     a later decision of the Chamber.

 2             Please go ahead, Mr. Thayer.

 3             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just wanted to point

 4     out two other issues with respect to our tender list.  The first is, as

 5     we have noted for the Trial Chamber, there are a number of exhibits that

 6     were not part of the original 92 bis package, and again you've heard me

 7     hold fort on there before, those additional documents were added as a

 8     result of this ongoing process whereby we review the prior transcript and

 9     try to pick up any documents that either were actually introduced but

10     somehow didn't make it into the 92 bis package, shown and admitted or

11     shown but not admitted.  So that explains the exhibits with the asterisk

12     and some additional documents which were not in the 92 bis package.

13     That's the first thing I wanted to point out for the Trial Chamber.

14             The second is, as the Trial Chamber is, I'm sure, aware, those

15     documents as well as some other documents which were in the 92 bis

16     package, weren't included on the -- on the 65 ter list of exhibits that

17     we filed.  As the Chamber is aware, our practice going into this case,

18     the practice in the -- in the prior cases, was not to make all those

19     packages part of the 65 ter filings.  Those exhibits all tended to come

20     in at the time of the witness's testimony, and that explains why those

21     documents don't have 65 ter numbers, and I know the Trial Chamber has

22     directed us to apply to add those exhibits to the 65 ter list of

23     exhibits.

24             I think a common sense way to -- and a time-saving way, I hope,

25     to approach that is, if there are no objections to the exhibits on the

Page 5343

 1     Prosecution's tender list, and typically I wouldn't expect any since

 2     they're all solely based on the prior transcript, unless we have

 3     something brand new that we want to show the witness, and -- and here we

 4     do have some new video that we want to show the witness, but that's not

 5     what I'm talking about here.  I think if, in the absence of a -- an

 6     objection to the exhibits, I think -- I would submit, respectively an

 7     oral motion at this point to add those to the list would do the trick.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What -- would you please tell us which -- to

 9     which documents you are referring.

10             MR. THAYER:  I can.  I can read them.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many are they?

12             MR. THAYER:  They are numerous, Mr. President.  We can put them

13     in an e-mail and transmit them to the Trial Chamber or I can just recite

14     them now.  I do have them marked.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm -- I only saw four documents, P992, P995,

16     996, and 997, as not included in the 65 ter exhibit list.

17             MR. THAYER:  Well, that -- that's good news to us.  We are

18     working off of a magic number of --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, oh, sorry.  Yes, I see there are -- no, I was

20     mistaken.

21             MR. THAYER:  Okay.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But they are indicated with a star in the -- in

23     the memorandum of the Registry of the 13th -- or 10th September.

24             MR. THAYER:  The documents indicated with the asterisk,

25     Mr. President, are solely those that were not included in the 92 bis

Page 5344

 1     package.  However, in addition to those, there are others that also do

 2     not have the 65 ter number.  The ones that we've added in addition to --

 3     as I said, very many of the 92 bis package documents don't have 65 ter

 4     numbers because our prior practice when we filed the motion was not to

 5     throw all those onto the 65 ter list in advance of -- of the decision.

 6             So there are many documents in addition to those with asterisks

 7     which don't have 65 ter numbers.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To save court time it would be better to send an

 9     e-mail, and I would like to ask the Defence, are there any objections?

10     Are you aware of the numbers?

11             What is your position?  Mr. Gajic.

12             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we don't have any

13     objections to the Prosecutor's request.  However, I would like to point

14     to a -- something that I don't see as a problem but it is a situation

15     with a piece of evidence that was marked for identification, P987, and it

16     is identical to D21.  We're talking about the agreement on

17     demilitarisation of Srebrenica and Zepa.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this is a different matter, if I'm not

19     mistaken.  But we now have it on the record, and we will check that.

20             Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.

21             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just wanted to note two

22     things further for the Trial Chamber.

23             The first is with respect to P624, which, Mr. President, you

24     identified a few moments ago.  The -- just for the record, the relevant

25     page from that document that was shown to Colonel Kingori the prior trial

Page 5345

 1     is page 77 in e-court.  That is page 61 of the hard copy document itself,

 2     but it's page 77 in e-court.  Again, I don't intend to show that still to

 3     Colonel Kingori today, but that was the page from that document that was

 4     shown to him.  So we are not tendering that entire document at this time.

 5     We will have Investigator Erin Gallagher, hopefully in the not too

 6     distant future testify about how that book was put together, the basis

 7     for the identifications in the book and so forth.  So I just wanted to

 8     alert the Trial Chamber to that issue.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, why do you tender this document with

10     the present witness if you're not showing it to him?

11             MR. THAYER:  You're correct, Mr. President.  We're -- rather than

12     chopping up this document into its 150 different pages and giving each

13     one a separate P number, what we would like to do did MFI it, as we have,

14     for example, with the trial video, and as different parts of it are

15     authenticated as we have Investigator Gallagher come in and testify about

16     it, at a later date we will formally tender the whole thing into

17     evidence.  And that's what I wanted to point out to the Trial Chamber, is

18     we're not tendering the whole document.  For now we're just tendering

19     that page and identifying it by its page number in e-court for the future

20     reference of the Trial Chamber so that it is part of this witness's

21     package and it doesn't come into just as a slice because that whole

22     document that it is a part of, we hope will come in later in the trial.

23             So if we could MFI it for the time being, that -- that would be

24     how we would like to proceed with that document.  So, unfortunately, we

25     didn't indicate that in so many words, and I apologise for that, if that

Page 5346

 1     created unnecessary number for Registry.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But then we will have two MFI numbers, one for

 3     the whole book and one for this page.  Is that your intention?

 4             MR. THAYER:  Well, no.  We don't even -- Mr. President, we don't

 5     even need to MFI the page.  We can just MFI the document --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is MFI'd.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Okay, then --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  P624, MFI.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Then we're fine.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  Then carry on, Mr. Thayer.

11             MR. THAYER:  Okay, thank you.  And if I may, I would like to

12     proceed with the summary.

13             The witness is a retired Kenyan Air Force lieutenant-colonel.  He

14     was deployed as a United Nations Military Observer, UNMO, to the

15     Srebrenica enclave in April 1995.  As an UNMO, his responsibilities

16     included investigating shelling incidents and other violations of the

17     cease-fire agreement; meeting with representatives of the warring

18     parties; and assisting UNHCR food delivers and monitoring the food

19     situation.  Although the UNMOs were part of UNPROFOR, they were not armed

20     and had their own chain of command, so that as a member of the Srebrenica

21     UNMO team, he reported to the UNMO headquarters located at UNPROFOR

22     Sector North-East in Tuzla, which, in turn, reported to the UNMO

23     headquarters in Zagreb.  He and his colleagues submitted daily situation

24     reports, sitreps, to UNMO headquarters in Sector North-East.  Owing to

25     VRS restrictions on leave, only three UNMOs were in the enclave in

Page 5347

 1     July 1995.

 2             During his deployment, he investigated numerous complaints from

 3     Muslim civilians who had been shelled by VRS forces.  On the other side,

 4     complaints by the VRS about Muslim military activities were made to him,

 5     but relatively rarely, and no reports of attacks by Muslims causing heavy

 6     casualties among Serb civilians reached the UNMOs in Srebrenica.

 7             In meetings with the witness, VRS officers made it clear to him

 8     that they wanted the entire Muslim population of Srebrenica to leave

 9     because they believed that it belonged to the Serbs.

10             The witness reviewed and discussed numerous situation reports he

11     and his colleagues wrote and transmitted during the VRS attack on

12     Srebrenica from 6 through 11 July 1995, as well as during the removal of

13     the civilian population and its aftermath.  The reports describe, among

14     other things, the shelling of civilian targets and densely populated

15     areas; civilians killed and wounded by the VRS shelling; and VRS threats

16     to wipe out both the Muslims and peacekeepers if NATO air-strikes

17     continued.

18             The witness personally participated in and observed many of the

19     events described in these reports, such as counting the shells hitting

20     Srebrenica; transporting civilians wounded by the shelling to the

21     hospital; and seeing the separation of the Muslim men and boys from their

22     families, their detention in the white house and their removal on buses

23     which were separate from the convoys transporting the women and children.

24             On 13 July, he drove to the hospital in Srebrenica town with an

25     MSF representative to see if any patients remained in the hospital there.

Page 5348

 1     En route he saw the shell damage to the Bravo Company compound and

 2     blood-stains.  He also observed the fresh damage to the town caused by

 3     the shelling.  When they arrived in the hospital, they found six elderly

 4     Muslim women in the hospital and psychiatric ward.  VRS soldiers told

 5     them to take the patients away or the soldiers would kill them.

 6             Following the departure of the civilian population, one of the

 7     major issues was what to do with the wounded and civilian employees of

 8     DutchBat and the NGOs.  The witness assisted in efforts to transport a

 9     group of wounded from Potocari to Bratunac.  He and the UNMOs later left

10     the enclave with the rest of the DutchBat personnel.

11             Mr. President, I just have a few additional questions for the

12     witness.

13        Q.   Sir, can you tell Trial Chamber, just briefly, what you're doing

14     now?

15        A.   Sir, currently I'm working in Nairobi as the deputy director of

16     the National Disaster Operations Centre.  That was after I retired three

17     years ago and I was seconded there by the military.

18        Q.   Okay.  Now, the Trial Chamber has before it a pretty big packet

19     of your sitreps, situation reports, as we call them.  What I'd like to do

20     is just take a quick moment and look at just one of them and ask you some

21     questions to help explain how set they're up and certain of the

22     abbreviations and so forth.

23             MR. THAYER:  So if we could see P968 for a moment, please.

24        Q.   And do you see a document in front of you, sir?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 5349

 1        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this is.

 2        A.   This is an update to a situation report from UNMO headquarter BH

 3     command in Sarajevo -- to UNMO headquarter BH Command Sarajevo from UNMO

 4     headquarter BH Sector North-East.  If you can look at the DTG, that is

 5     the date time group, this was on 8th at 1430 hours in July 1995.

 6        Q.   And that B that follows the time of 1430, what does that stand

 7     for, Colonel?

 8        A.   B, that is Bravo, is a time zone and we have a several time zones

 9     in the world.  We have Zulu, Bravo, and all the others.

10        Q.   Okay.  And you said -- you referred to BH Sector North-East.

11     That was based in Tuzla, is that correct, just so there is no doubt about

12     what we are talking about?

13        A.   Correct, sir.

14        Q.   Now, if we look in paragraph 1, there's a reference to the

15     BiH Chief of Staff, and I think that's abbreviated as COS.  Do you see

16     where it says:

17             "The BiH COS has informed UNMOs that over 100 shells have

18     landed."

19             That's almost in the middle of paragraph 1.

20        A.   Let me look for it.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we move a little bit to the right side so

22     that we see the first letter of each line.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, can I see it.

24             MR. THAYER:

25        Q.   Okay.  So this report contains this line that the BiH Chief of

Page 5350

 1     Staff has informed UNMOs that over 100 shells have landed in the general

 2     area of Bleceva [phoen] and Cimzic [phoen].  But this is," and then's an

 3     abbreviation and this is what I wanted to ask you about.  It is written

 4     here:  "But this is NCBU."

 5             What does that mean, sir?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should be enlarged a little bit more, as we

 7     had it before.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, NCBU --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

10             THE WITNESS:  NCBU, to us, meant "not confirmed by UNMOs."  In

11     this case, what we mean is, as military observers, we were sending

12     reports indicating what we have observed, but something that comes to us

13     from another source, we had to indicate to the headquarter that we

14     personally have not confirmed it.  But in the process would go out there

15     and confirm and then report.

16             MR. THAYER:

17        Q.   Okay.  And if we go to the very end of the paragraph, it says

18     "Note," and this is at the end of paragraph 1:

19             "Note, use this as our DSR if we do not send it on time, as we

20     are now heading for the bunker."

21             Can you just tell us, please, what DSR means?

22        A.   Your Honour, DSR means "daily situation report."  This is what we

23     sent, you know, sending every day in the evening, but in the course of

24     the day, if something arises, we used to send updates like this one.  But

25     due to constraints, we had to indicate here that if we are unable to send

Page 5351

 1     a daily situation report, they can use the update that we have given as

 2     the normal DSR.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And if we look at the very bottom of the document, at the

 4     sign-off it says:

 5             "Regards Team Srebrenica (through HQ Sector North-East)."

 6             Can you just explain what that means, Colonel?

 7        A.   You can see up there, to --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Previous page in B/C/S.

 9             THE WITNESS:  If can you see the indication where we have a "To,"

10     is to UNMO headquarter BH Command Sarajevo and UNMO headquarter Zagreb.

11     That is where the destination of this update was.  But because of

12     communication problems, sometimes you cannot get through immediately, so

13     we had to go through headquarters Sector North-East so that they can

14     retransmit the same to these other destinations.

15        Q.   I think we're done with that exhibit.  Thank you very much.

16             I wanted to ask you about one topic you testified about, and this

17     was at transcript page 19441 to 19442 of your Popovic testimony, just for

18     the record.  There, you testified about the VRS shelling of the

19     Srebrenica town, and you used the word "crushed" to describe how they

20     were crushed into a particular area.

21             Can you just describe for the Trial Chamber in a little bit more

22     detail what you meant by that.  What were you explaining in Popovic when

23     you talked about the civilians being crushed into an area?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the record, this is P950.

25             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, what I mean -- what I meant by this

Page 5352

 1     was that these people were being forced into a certain direction, in that

 2     the shelling was sort of patterned to force the people to flee towards a

 3     certain direction, and what this means is that they had no choice other

 4     than to go directly to the direction that they're being forced to.  There

 5     were no alternatives.  So they had to go directly towards -- those from

 6     [indiscernible] and other outlying villages had to go towards Srebrenica

 7     itself.  And after that, they were forced now to flee towards a safer

 8     place which was the DutchBat compound.  So this what I meant by

 9     "crushing."  They were being forced into one direction.

10        Q.   And when you say "DutchBat compound," sir, where was that

11     compound located?

12        A.   Your Honour, DutchBat compound, this is the compound that

13     belonged to the battalion of Netherlands, and it was located in Potocari.

14        Q.   Okay.  Just for the next couple of minutes, I'd like to show you

15     some very brief video-clips and just ask you a couple of questions about

16     them.  This is from the Popovic trial video P991.  And it is subtitled,

17     so the interpreters can take a break and we can just watch the movie for

18     a couple of minutes.

19             MR. THAYER:  For the record, we're starting at 1 hour,

20     58 minutes, and 7 seconds.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. THAYER:

23        Q.   Sir, we've stopped the video at 1 hour, 58 minutes, 34.4 seconds.

24     First of all, can you identify yourself anywhere in this video.  And if

25     you could just briefly explain the location, and if you recall the date.

Page 5353

 1        A.   Sir, I can see myself behind there somewhere, but some of these

 2     person look slightly younger than I am now.  I'm the one behind there.

 3     And this happened outside the DutchBat compound but slightly towards

 4     Srebrenica village where the -- the IDPs or refugees, whatever you may

 5     call them, were located.

 6             I hope you still remember that we had two areas where these

 7     refugees were located.  One of them was inside the DutchBat compound,

 8     both inside the warehouses and outside, and also in a factory located

 9     just about 3, 3 or 400 metres from the DutchBat compound as you go

10     towards Srebrenica town.

11             So as can you see, here we have General Ratko Mladic and other

12     officers from the BSA side, and DutchBat officers.  We were trying to

13     discuss with them on what should be done now that the situation has

14     really changed.  But it was very difficult because of a communication

15     barrier, and for me, I had to look for officers who could be able to

16     interpret.

17        Q.   Okay.  And, again, just for the record, can you describe the

18     colour of the vest that you're wearing?

19        A.   The colour, Your Honours, as can you see, is blue, and the helmet

20     is also blue.

21        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at another clip very briefly, please.

22             MR. THAYER:  For the record, we're at 2 hours, 27 minutes of the

23     exhibit.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. THAYER:  We've stopped at 2 hours, 28 minutes, 45.7 seconds.

Page 5354

 1        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber, Colonel, please, what was going

 2     on in this footage that we just saw.  What are you talking, and what

 3     brought you to this location, and who are you speaking to?

 4        A.   Your Honour, this was one of the most trying moments in my stay

 5     in Srebrenica, in that we had no water and we had to request water to be

 6     brought, and luckily, the BSA agreed to bring water for the people.

 7     After that, I had to look for people who could be able to speak English

 8     because I had really noticed that men had been separated from women and

 9     children by the BSA and had been taken to -- had been taken to one of the

10     houses, specifically a white house, where, according to my assessment,

11     they were overcrowded.  They were sitting on each other.  There was no

12     proper aeration, no proper sanitation facilities.  And they were huddled

13     there, not being assisted, you know, in anything.

14             So this had really annoyed me a bit, in that I had to look for

15     BSA officer who could be able to go there and assist.  Unfortunately,

16     most of them could not speak English and I had to identify some who could

17     be able to convey the message to their senior officers.  That is,

18     including the colonels who were there.  We're talking about Colonel

19     Vukovic, Colonel Drcic, General Ratko Mladic, and all those senior

20     officers who there were, so that could be done about the civilian --

21     the -- the men who were huddled in one particular house.

22        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at one more clip.

23             MR. THAYER:  We are at 2 hours, 29 minutes, 20 seconds of the

24     video.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 5355

 1             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I don't know whether you will be would

 2     be able to go back a bit.  If you are able to go back a bit, where you

 3     have started, because there's some items which are located somewhere.

 4     And if you allow me, I can talk about it.

 5             MR. THAYER:

 6        Q.   Okay.  Can we --

 7        A.   Yes, there.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Again we're back at 2 hours, 29 minutes and

10     22.9 seconds.

11        Q.   Go ahead, Colonel.

12        A.   Your Honour, when the men were being separated from the women and

13     children, they were taken to a white house, as I have said earlier.  They

14     were forced to leave their belongings on the way, somewhere on the road

15     before they entered the house, and these are some of their belongings.

16     Here we are talking about -- they had luggage that they had or the

17     documents, including identification cards, wallets, that includes even

18     money.  Anything that they had, they had to drop it here before entering

19     the -- that white house.  So these are some of the belongings that

20     belonged to those people.

21        Q.   And you mentioned the documents that were among the items that

22     the men who were in the white house were forced to leave there in the

23     pile.  Did that cause any concern for you, Colonel, that documents were

24     being left in the pile, that these men were forced to leave their

25     documents outside this white house before going in?

Page 5356

 1        A.   Your Honour, to me it meant a lot, and I mentioned it somewhere

 2     during cross-examination here sometime back.  And it meant that these

 3     people, whatever is going to be done to them, it would be very difficult

 4     to identify them later, because all the identification documents have

 5     been left somewhere.  And if really you don't have any bad intention, you

 6     don't take documentation from people.  You let them have their

 7     documentation so that you can easily identify who this particular person

 8     is.  But this was an indicator that something bad was going to happen,

 9     and we mentioned in our reports to headquarters.

10             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Let's just continue the video for another

11     minute or so, please.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. THAYER:  And we've stopped at 2 hours, 30 minutes.

14        Q.   Colonel, please, tell the Trial Chamber what's going on here.

15        A.   Your Honour, here, we are discussing with BSA officers.  The one

16     in a blue flak-jacket is one of those I had identified that could speak

17     English and he was assisting us in translation, because I was talking to

18     that senior officer next there and I had to be -- let them know that what

19     they have done is really wrong.  This is in terms of putting people in

20     one place, removing their documentation, and also not being seen to mind

21     about their welfare, as earlier discussed.

22        Q.   Okay.  And for the record, this still has four men in it, two of

23     whom are wearing blue berets.  The senior officer that you were just

24     referring to, is that the third individual from the left who is wearing a

25     white T-shirt underneath his camouflage uniform?  Is that who you are

Page 5357

 1     talking about, sir?

 2        A.   Your Honour, it's true.  This is the one who is third from the

 3     left, my left, and wearing a white T-shirt inside.  The other officer

 4     that can you see on the extreme left is also a BSA officer but wearing a

 5     blue UN beret.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, let's continue rolling the video, please.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask a question.

 8             Did I understand you correctly, this is in -- an officer of the

 9     BSA wearing a blue beret of the UN forces.  Is that true?  And what might

10     be the explanation for that.

11             THE WITNESS:  That's true, sir.  Upon -- just before the fall of

12     the enclave, they had surrounded several observation posts, in short,

13     OPs, which were being manned by the Dutch battalion and they had taken

14     everything, including their clothing.  Some even came back naked.  They

15     also took even their armoured personnel carriers, and they wanted to sort

16     of disguise like they are UN personnel, whereas they were not, so that

17     they could be able to access without being known to be BSA officers.  So

18     this to us was -- at least we had seen that before.

19             And also the one who was to the right, the one who could speak

20     English, you can see he has a blue flak-jacket and this was actually

21     UN property stolen by these people.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Another question by Judge Mindua.

23             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, just to follow up on the

24     question from the Presiding Judge.  The blue beret from the UN that is

25     wearing the officer [as interpreted] in question, I was wondering whether

Page 5358

 1     it was bearing the insignia of the UN or whether it was just blue.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I can't remember whether it had that insignia.  But

 3     in most cases they were not removing it.  They were wearing it with the

 4     insignia on.

 5             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we could continue

 8     rolling the video for a moment, please.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. THAYER:  We've stopped at 2 hours, 30 minutes, 46.5 seconds.

11        Q.   Colonel, can you tell the Trial Chamber what's depicted in this

12     video still.  We see a balcony of a building with a number of men seated

13     close together on it.

14        A.   Your Honour, this is the balcony of the house -- of the

15     white house that I talked about.  This is where the -- the men who were

16     separated from their families were kept.  Some were up there in the

17     balcony, others were down there in the ground floor.  And these were very

18     many men in a very small area.  And that is why I really complained about

19     it.  There were very many -- as can you see, there's no breathing space.

20     And these ones are better because at least they are in the upper floor.

21     But the ones who are down there were really suffering.

22        Q.   Okay.  We're done with this exhibit.

23             Just a couple of more questions for you, Colonel.

24             I want to show you a very brief excerpt from some video footage

25     that we did not have in our possession at the time you testified in 2007

Page 5359

 1     and 2008.  This has, I believe, already been shown to the Trial Chamber,

 2     but I just want to show some excerpts from it and see if you can identify

 3     yourself and explain what's going on.

 4             MR. THAYER:  And this is from V000-8122, which is P236, P00236.

 5             We're starting at 2 hours, 18 minutes, 1.5 seconds of this

 6     exhibit.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. THAYER:

 9        Q.   Sir, we've stopped at 2 hours, 18 minutes and 21 seconds.  Please

10     tell the Trial Chamber what's going on here.  If you can remember what

11     day this was.  And do you see yourself anywhere in this frame.  If you

12     do, can you just describe what you're wearing?

13        A.   Your Honour, I can see myself there in a blue flak-jacket and a

14     blue helmet, and picking up bread from the lorry that had brought it.

15             What we're doing here is to distribute the bread which had been

16     brought by the BSA to the IDPs who were huddled outside the factory that

17     I alluded to earlier and who were very hungry and very thirsty at that

18     particular moment.  So the bread came straight away, after the water had

19     been brought, and we decided to assist in distributing the same.

20        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, we're done with this exhibit.

21             Now, finally, sir, I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions

22     that didn't come up in the Popovic trial.  It's in your OTP statement,

23     and you do talk about the general topic in the Popovic case.  At

24     transcript page, for the record, 19279, you testified that after the

25     civilian population had been removed from Potocari one of the major

Page 5360

 1     issues became what to do with the sick, injured and wounded who remained

 2     on the Potocari UN compound, as well as what to do with the Muslim

 3     civilian employees of DutchBat and the other NGOs.  And you then

 4     testified at transcript page 19824 to 19825 about efforts that were made

 5     to transport those sick and wounded from Potocari to Bratunac.

 6             In connection with those efforts, do you recall any lists being

 7     made, Colonel?

 8        A.   Your Honour, there was a list that was made, but this was to

 9     enable us know who the injured and the sick were.  The list was made by

10     both us and the MSF, mainly by the MSF, but we did it together because

11     they were the ones who knew those who were sick and what was ailing them.

12     If it was injuries, they could indicate what was actually wrong with

13     them.  But we did it together.

14             So this was to enable us evacuate the same people, that is, the

15     injured and the sick, so that they can get treatment, you know, better

16     treatment so that can get cured.  The other reason was to make sure that

17     at least we know who is where and especially concerning the -- the

18     injured.  We had Mr. -- Major Nikolic going around and checking those who

19     are in the hospital -- in the DutchBat compound, whether they -- they

20     were part of the -- the soldiers -- the Muslim soldiers, and so we wanted

21     to make sure that at least we have a proper list that we can use.

22             Now, on the interpreters.  I thought you asked about the

23     interpreters also.

24        Q.   Yes.  Were there any lists that you recall being made with

25     respect to the interpreters and the other civilian employees of the NGOs?

Page 5361

 1        A.   Your Honour, we had to make a list of interpreters and the other

 2     employees of NGOs because we wanted to make sure that they get a good

 3     exit out of the enclave in a safe way.  We wanted to make sure that we

 4     were given permission to leave the enclave together so that their lives

 5     are not endangered.  If they could have been left in the enclave,

 6     definitely something bad could have happened to them, and so we actually

 7     wanted to be evacuated together with all of them.

 8        Q.   And with respect to the list of the wounded, you referred to

 9     Major Nikolic going around and checking those people, can you first just

10     tell the Trial Chamber who -- who Major Nikolic was, to your knowledge?

11        A.   Your Honour, it was Major Nikolic was the main link between us

12     and the BSA.  To us, he was a local commander in that particular area,

13     and he could meet us once a week, or when situation required that we

14     meet.  We could request to meet him and he could also request to meet us

15     in case of anything.  This was being done through an interpreter who was

16     called Mr. Peter and who had our own UN communication equipment.  He had

17     a radio that we could be able to call him through and convey a message to

18     Major Nikolic and vice versa.  Some of these meetings were to convey some

19     messages and especially if something had happened from the BSA side that

20     Major Nikolic or the BSA wanted the Muslims to know about.  Or, serious

21     meetings like when Colonel Vukovic wanted to meet us, he conveyed the

22     message through Major Nikolic to us.

23        Q.   Okay.  And you mentioned safety concerns for the interpreters,

24     for example, and that was one of the reasons why you made the list of the

25     interpreters.  To what degree did similar concerns play in the decision

Page 5362

 1     to make the list of the wounded, which included possible military-aged

 2     men?  In other words, did you have the same concerns for some of the

 3     wounded that you listed that you had for the interpreters?

 4        A.   Your Honour, even in war, the injured are given a human face.

 5     They're supposed to be treated.  They're supposed to face the same

 6     situation as the friendly forces, not as enemy forces.  Because they are

 7     no longer active in war.  That is, even if they were fighting soldiers,

 8     they are no longer active.

 9             So according to the Geneva Convention, they're supposed to be

10     treated in a humane way.  And that is what caused concern to us, in that

11     even if they are injured, they've got to be evacuated and treated in a

12     good hospital so that they can recover.  So that is why we had to make

13     that list, to make sure that those are also evacuated from that

14     particular enclave.

15        Q.   And, to your knowledge, did everybody that were -- who was on

16     these two lists make it out safely in the end?

17        A.   Your Honours, as far as I'm concerned, I think those who were in

18     that list made it safely outside the enclave.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MR. THAYER:  The last thing I'd like to do is -- and this is with

21     the Court's permission.  There are two documents which I identified after

22     we had issued the list that hadn't been used in the Popovic case.  I

23     notified the Defence that if there were -- there was no objection and the

24     foundation were laid by Colonel Kingori, that we might seek to tender

25     these with the Court's permission.  They do not have 65 ter numbers.

Page 5363

 1     They were not part of the 92 bis package.  They were, however, part of

 2     the original OTP witness statement that everybody's had for years.  They

 3     were part of the same package that included all the sitreps, most of

 4     which the Trial Chamber has before it.

 5             What I'd like to do is be able to show these to the witness just

 6     to lay the foundation for their authenticity, and if the Court requires,

 7     I can make it part of a formal motion to add these two documents to the

 8     65 ter list later, or if there's no objection and the Court deems it

 9     appropriate, we can do that now and simply add them now.  I think they're

10     uploaded.  We have temporary -- or 65 ter numbers assigned to them and

11     it's just a matter of showing them to the witness so he can identify them

12     for the record.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, are there any objections?

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             We don't know which other document it concerns because we don't

17     have that document.  Maybe the Prosecution can indicate the number.

18             It's difficult to proceed with cross-examination today without

19     knowing which document is in question.  We know about one document; we

20     don't know about the other.

21             MR. THAYER:  I --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber is in the same position

23     as you.  Perhaps, Mr. Thayer, you can be a little bit more precise.

24             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  I made sure that the Defence

25     had hard copies of the documents.  Mr. Gajic has them.  I've identified

Page 5364

 1     them by ERN, and location and page, both in English and B/C/S for the

 2     Defence --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You might just give an indication of which

 4     documents you are referring.

 5             MR. THAYER:  We're referring to 65 ter 6540 and 6541.  There

 6     might be some confusion.  I think the packet I gave to the Defence may

 7     have been stapled as one document and that might be the confusion as to

 8     whether there's one document or two documents.  But it is in fact two

 9     lists that were part of the witness's OTP statement.  So we can put them

10     up on the ELMO.  They are uploaded.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

12             MR. THAYER:  So we'll see that -- if Mr. Gajic is looking at the

13     packet I gave him, the first document ends at 00527591, and then the

14     other one picks up at 7592.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, I saw you were on your feet.

16             Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             All the documents are put together in one file which bears one

19     number, and we will look into it before cross-examination.

20             But we would appreciate it if the Prosecution could separate

21     these documents because they are, by their nature, separate.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They are uploaded in e-court, both of them,

23     Mr. Thayer?

24             MR. THAYER:  They, are, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then we would like to see them.  You can clarify

Page 5365

 1     if it's one document or two.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Certainly.  May we see 6540, please.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm told, are they released to the Chamber -- to

 5     the Registry?

 6             MR. THAYER:  We thought so, Mr. President.  If -- I'm -- I'm

 7     getting confirmation that they are.  If they are slow to come up or if

 8     they are in the ether somewhere, I've got hard copies we can place on the

 9     ELMO without a problem.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have it on the screen.

11             MR. THAYER:  Oh, okay.  All right.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And on both sides, we see the same document.

13     Perhaps we need only one.  Could be enlarged a bit.  Thank you very much.

14             Please carry on.

15             MR. THAYER:  Okay.

16        Q.   Sir, do you recognise what this document is before you?

17        A.   Sir, this is the document that I talked about, that is, the list

18     of the injured who were in DutchBat compound.

19        Q.   Okay.  And in the upper left-hand corner, we see somebody has

20     written "Attachment number 20, page 1."  That was done by Mr. Ruez, the

21     OTP investigator who interviewed you in 1997; is that correct?

22        A.   That's correct, sir.

23        Q.   And over on the right there appears to be a signature.  Do you

24     know whose signature that is?

25        A.   Definitely sir.  This is my signature.

Page 5366

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2             MR. THAYER:  And if we can go to page 8 of this document, please.

 3     And just scroll down a little bit.

 4        Q.   We can see there were 60 names typed and then there are three

 5     additional names that were added by hand.  Who added those names, sir?

 6        A.   Sir, I'm the one who added these names for these three other

 7     people.  And, as you can see, what I've written down there, they are

 8     family members of some of the wounded persons that would have wanted to

 9     be evacuated together with the injured and the sick from the enclave.

10     This is my handwriting.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One observation, we see a typed list with

12     60 names.  Then the number 61 is missing, and then we have three numbers,

13     handwritten 61 -- sorry, 62, 63 and 64.

14             Please carry on.

15             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  May we see 65 ter 6541, please.

16        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this is, sir.

17        A.   Your Honour, this is the list of interpreters, that is, both for

18     DutchBat and slightly there you can see those for UNMO interpreters, and

19     below that, the refugee representatives in the enclave.  So this is the

20     list that we prepared together with the earlier list so that we could get

21     a safe exit from the enclave.

22        Q.   All right.

23             MR. THAYER:  And if we can just scroll to the top of the

24     document, please.

25        Q.   We can see in the upper left-hand corner what's written:

Page 5367

 1     "Attachment number 21, page 1."  And, again, on the right-hand corner,

 2     can you identify the signature there?

 3        A.   Your Honour, this is, too, my signature.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. THAYER:  And if we can scroll down to the bottom of the

 6     document.

 7        Q.   In addition to the refugee representatives you just spoke about

 8     there's also somebody who is listed as an MSF female personnel.  And if

 9     we can go to the next page, we can also see individuals who were being

10     identified from UNHCR and again from MSF.

11             Sir, did Mr. Ruez have these documents already when he met with

12     you, or did you have them with you and you gave them to him during your

13     interview?

14        A.   Your Honour, these are documents that I had with myself.

15        Q.   In other words, you brought them out of the enclave; is that

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes.  That is exactly what I'm saying, that these are some of the

18     documents I managed to get out of the enclave with and I went with them

19     to Kenya, including even some of the situation reports which were not

20     initially part of the UN system.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter

23     numbers 6540, 6541, unless there's an objection, or if the Defence needs

24     some time to review, I certainly will understand the -- a delay in doing

25     that.  But I would tender them at this point.

Page 5368

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE.  If I understood you correctly, you are moving for

 2     addition to the 65 ter exhibit list.

 3             MR. THAYER:  That is correct, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 5             Mr. Tolimir, what is your position?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             We do not object, but this should be admitted as one document,

 8     not two.  We don't want to speculate.  We never have, and we never will,

 9     until the end of these proceedings.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand the Prosecution that these are in

11     fact two documents.  That's two different 65 ter numbers.  And after

12     having heard the explanation of the witness, in fact, they are two

13     different lists.  One containing 63 names, and the other without any

14     numbering of the names.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, the -- your motion will be granted.

17     The documents will be entered to the 65 ter exhibit list and both

18     documents will be received as exhibits.  But, let me tell you the opinion

19     of the Trial Chamber.  It's really a last-moment application, and we

20     would be very glad if you could deal with these problems a little earlier

21     for the sake of the proceedings of the Chamber and for the preparation of

22     the Defence.

23             MR. THAYER:  It is, indeed, Mr. President.  I apologise again.  I

24     only realised this yesterday, unfortunately.  And as soon as I did, I

25     communicated all this information to the Defence.  And again, I

Page 5369

 1     apologise, and I thank the Court for its flexibility.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Microphone not activated]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 6540 will be Exhibit P1002.  65 ter 6541

 4     will be Exhibit P1003.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.  And I

 7     thank the witness.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, your cross-examination, please.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] I would like to welcome the witness and I wish

13     him a pleasant stay in our midst, and I would invite him to answer

14     according to his conscience.

15             Please, sir, Mr. Kingori, could you please tell us, before you

16     arrived in the territory of Yugoslavia, did you undergo a special

17     training, special education, to teach you about the history of the

18     conflict in the area where you were being sent as a -- an observer?

19     Thank you.

20        A.   Sir, maybe before I answer the question I will request that I see

21     what is being said on the -- because I cannot see it now.

22             MR. THAYER:  If we could have some help from the court assistants

23     with the LiveNote.  I think that's the problem.

24             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, thank you very much.  And I would like

25     to let you know that before any military observer or military officers

Page 5370

 1     who form the battalions to work for the UN leave their countries, it's

 2     the normal practice that they are taught issues to do with the country

 3     they're going to; the historical background of the conflict, the -- the

 4     ethnic groups who are in that area; their differences, if any; the socio-

 5     cultural and other economic issues; and also the political situation in

 6     that particular area.  So in this case there was no exception, and we

 7     were taught that in Nairobi before going to our area of responsibility.

 8             Secondly, as we arrived in Zagreb, we were briefed by the

 9     UNPROFOR officers on where we were going to be taken to, that is, where

10     we would be posted, and the situation in those particular areas.  We were

11     also briefed on the historical background of the war itself, from when it

12     started and even going back much, much earlier, into -- during the reign

13     of the late Josip Broz Tito, coming all the way up to the Cold War

14     period, and heading towards the period after the death of Josip Broz Tito

15     and immediately thereafter, how the governments were formed and all that.

16     So all that information we had.  And every time you are taken to a

17     different sector, you are also reminded about what is inherent in that

18     particular sector.  Like, my first posting was in Sector East, that was

19     in Erdut.  That is where I got posted for the first six months.  And I

20     was briefed about that particular area and the situation, because

21     different areas had different problems.  The issues which were inherent

22     in Erdut and the surrounding areas, all the way up to Vukovar, are

23     different from what we had in the Bosnian side.

24             So upon my finishing the -- my stay in Team Erdut, I was given a

25     proper brief.  First of all, we had to get a break of about six days, and

Page 5371

 1     then you are briefed on your next posting and the area you are going to,

 2     and what is inherent in that particular area.

 3             In Bosnia and Herzegovina, as you all know, the situation was

 4     very different from how it was in Croatia which was slightly more

 5     peaceful, also very different from what was happening in Slovenia which

 6     was actually a bit independent at that time, and also different from what

 7     was happening in Macedonia.  So we were briefed fully on what was

 8     happening in those areas.

 9             Maybe the last point on that particular section I can say, we

10     were also briefed on the weaponry systems, or the weaponry systems which

11     were used and available in those areas were shown to us through video and

12     also pictures.  And we were also taught how to identify those particular

13     weapons when we see them, because some of them had been put in safe

14     areas, that is, in some factories, to ensure that the warring factions do

15     not access these weapons.  This used to happen in areas where we could

16     call safe areas, were called safe areas or enclaves, whatever name you

17     may want to use.  These are areas which were protected, or UNPA,

18     UN Protected Areas, like Srebrenica, Zepa, and I think Sarajevo, and some

19     other areas.  Those were UN protected areas.  So where -- these are areas

20     where all the heavy weapons were put in particular places and we had to

21     go and inspect them to make sure they had not gotten out.  In any case

22     one of the weapons is seen outside, we could easily identify because we

23     had already been taught about them.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I did not want to interrupt you.  I wanted to allow

25     you to say everything you want.

Page 5372

 1             My next question is this:  Who was it who briefed you when you

 2     were transferred from Croatia to Bosnia and Herzegovina?  Who was it?

 3     That's my first question.  Thank you.

 4        A.   We were briefed by the staff officers in the UNMO headquarters in

 5     Zagreb.  Those are the ones who briefed us, the staff officers.  These

 6     were serving under the Chief of Staff.  But it was a regular brief, it

 7     was normal, and we got it from them.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Please --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, is that perhaps a convenient time

10     for our second break?  Thank you.

11             Sir, we must have our next break now, and we will resume in half

12     an hour at 1.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you continue your cross-examination,

16     Mr. Tolimir, I have to come back to some exhibits.

17             We had a discussion among the Judges about one decision I made,

18     and that is related to the documents P984 through P991.  These were not

19     used with this witness and not admitted during the Popovic case with this

20     witness, and, therefore, I would like to ask the Defence if they object

21     to admission of these documents we have already received, but otherwise

22     normally we would only mark them for identification and admit them only

23     if the -- there is a showing that there is a relation between these

24     documents and the accused.  But if there's no objection by the Defence,

25     we would leave it like it is.

Page 5373

 1                           [Defence counsel confer]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             The Defence does not have any objections to the admission of

 5     those documents and for the Prosecutor to express his opinion on what has

 6     just been said.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 8             Then we leave it like it is, and these documents are exhibits

 9     with the given numbers.

10             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just to leave no doubt on the record,

11     these documents were, in fact, used with the witness.  They just weren't

12     admitted -- the LiveNote indicates that they were not used and not

13     tendered but they were used and admitted through another witness.  I just

14     wanted to clarify that.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They were not used in our trial with this witness

16     but used in the other trial and admitted with another witness.  I hope

17     now it's clear for the record.  Thank you very much.

18             Mr. Tolimir, please continue your cross-examination.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Kingori, I did not interrupt you while you were talking about

22     Western Slavonia and Erdut, and you also mentioned Vukovar and so on and

23     so forth.

24             Could you now tell us whether you discharged the same duties

25     there.  Did you appear in the role as a military observer and what was

Page 5374

 1     your role there, actually?  What did you do?

 2        A.   Your Honour, I was a military observer in both Team Erdut and

 3     also in Team Srebrenica.  In Erdut, I was the team leader, and when I

 4     went to Srebrenica, I joined as any other UNMO.

 5             The -- the roles and responsibilities of UN Military Observers

 6     are many.  Some of them being to observe any violations to the cease-fire

 7     agreement and report on the same, to ensure that the -- the warring

 8     factions are brought together to a negotiation table so that they can

 9     discuss the problems they have.  And in these, I'm talking about holding

10     meetings with either side and conveying the grievances or feelings of one

11     side to the other so that we can bridge the gap between the two factions.

12             The other one was to ensure that the weapons which have been

13     surrendered in a safe area, or UNPA, are kept in that safe area and no

14     access to them by the faction that actually surrendered them.

15             Another role was to negotiate for permission to leave or even

16     enter the enclave on behalf of other UN agencies and NGOs.  Some

17     organisations, like UNHCR, IOM and all that, could not get access

18     sometimes unless there is an intervention by the UN Military Observers.

19             Also escort, give escort to some of these organisations so that

20     they're not harmed on the way.

21             One thing to note here is that military observers were never

22     armed and even the current officers who are serving as military observers

23     are not armed at all.  Reason being, they should be in a position to

24     access both sides without fear, without the other side fearing them, or

25     them fearing the other side.  If you're not armed, the other side will

Page 5375

 1     not fear you because can you cause no harm to them.  So you can easily

 2     access their side.  You can patrol the area without fear, because the

 3     only weapon that you have as a military observer is a pen and a book.

 4     That's -- those are the only weapons that you have.  And also

 5     communication equipment.

 6             So really, those were the roles that we performed as military

 7     observers, and I did the same roles in both Team Erdut in Eastern

 8     Slavonia and also in Srebrenica.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  When we're talking about that zone which

10     is part of Croatia and the former Republic of Serbian Krajina and when it

11     was demilitarised, were they -- were there volunteers who moved from that

12     zone and joined the warfare in Bosnia and Herzegovina?  Do you know that?

13        A.   I really do not understand which volunteers you are talking

14     about, unless maybe you explain further.  Are they volunteers to assist

15     in terms of what?

16        Q.   Thank you.  A lot of soldiers were disarmed in that zone in both

17     Eastern and Western Slavonia.  I'm sure that are you familiar with the

18     terms.  Would you say that some of those men that had been disarmed as

19     soldiers in those two areas, did they, later on, turn up in Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina to engage in combat there?  Did you hear of any such

21     instances?  Thank you.

22        A.   Your Honour, I did not hear of any instances whereby disarmed

23     members or people from Eastern or Western Slavonia crossed over to Bosnia

24     to fight.  I'm not aware of that.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In that zone, was there a group known under the name

Page 5376

 1     of Skorpions?  Does the name ring any bells?  Thank you.  People who

 2     called themselves Skorpions, a group of people.

 3        A.   Your Honour, I don't remember such a group.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember -- when you were in Srebrenica, do

 5     you remember how far Trnovo is from Srebrenica?  Do you know where Trnovo

 6     is and how far it is from Srebrenica?  Thank you.

 7        A.   Your Honour, there is written alternative -- I don't know --

 8        Q.   I repeat the name of the place.  Trnovo, T-r-n-o-v-o.  That's the

 9     name of the place which was not properly recorded.  Thank you.

10        A.   I can't remember how far it was.  It's a long time.  But if I'm

11     shown on the map I can easily identify it.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Was it close to Srebrenica or was it in the zone that

13     you controlled?  Did you hear of as a geographic term?

14        A.   Trnovo, unless the spelling mistake, really, I can't remember

15     knowing such a place.  But also there were so many places in that area

16     that I may not remember.  So that's why I was requesting if you show me

17     on the map, I can easily identify whether it was in our area of

18     responsibility or not.

19        Q.   Thank you.  That wasn't in your zone.  I asked you whether you

20     remember, and you don't, and I understand why, because the place is near

21     Sarajevo.  We don't need to look at a map.  A crime had taken place in

22     that place, committed by the alleged Skorpions.  And the Skorpion group

23     was composed of the people from the area where you had served in Western

24     and Eastern Slavonia.  They called themselves Skorpions.  They came to

25     this place Trnovo and committed a crime there.  Do you remember that?

Page 5377

 1        A.   Your Honour, maybe the people or the observers who can be able

 2     explain that are those who were serving in that particular area, because

 3     there must have been a team in that area.  So if you ask me something to

 4     do with Srebrenica, or Team Erdut, I may be able to explain.  But that

 5     was an area of responsibility of another team.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I just wanted you to confirm that it did not feature

 7     in your reports, that you did not report about that crime, and that it

 8     did not belong to the demilitarised zone of Srebrenica where you served

 9     as an observer.  Yes or no?  Do you remember reporting about a crime

10     committed by a group called Skorpions, originating from Western Slavonia?

11        A.   Your Honour, I never reported on anything from Western Slavonia,

12     at all, at all.

13        Q.   Thank you.  My next question.  Why were you transferred from

14     Eastern Slavonia to serve as a military observer in Srebrenica?

15        A.   Your Honour, the normal rotation of UN military observers is six

16     months you stay in one team, and then another six months, you're

17     transferred to another team.  That was the normal rotation.  But in case

18     other conditions arose, maybe you are appointed team leader or deputy

19     team leader in another team, you just transferred.  So that was the

20     normal UN system.  But, at the same time it is good to note that I stayed

21     there for only six months, which is normal, a normal rotation.  So after

22     six months I had to be transferred to another team.

23        Q.   Do you know what happened with this area of Western Slavonia that

24     was under the control of the United Nations after you left?  And

25     Eastern Slavonia as well.

Page 5378

 1        A.   I know Eastern Slavonia was taken by the Croats.  And Western

 2     Slavonia was also taken by the -- by the Croats.  I am aware of that.  I

 3     was there, I was still there.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Upon arriving at Srebrenica, were you aware that,

 5     apart from being a protected area, it was also a demilitarised area,

 6     according to the agreement on safe areas signed?

 7        A.   Yes, I'm aware.

 8        Q.   Was it then part of your mission to make sure that this area was

 9     demilitarised in keeping with the agreement and to check whether there

10     were any violations?

11        A.   Your Honour, it was our role to make sure that there are no

12     violations to the cease-fire agreement.  And that is why we had to ensure

13     that all the weapons which had been surrendered to the -- to the UN.  And

14     in this particular case, that is, the Srebrenica issue, it was -- they

15     were being kept at the Bravo Company of the DutchBat.  That is near our

16     PTT building, not very far from our PTT building.  So that is where they

17     were kept.  And the -- the DutchBat are the ones who were to ensure that

18     they're safe in that area and no one is allowed to take them from there.

19     So that is all we had to do.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Were you supposed to note the presence of any armed

21     persons within the borders of the demilitarised zone?

22        A.   Yes, we were.

23        Q.   Do you remember whether, in your daily situation reports, there

24     were any reports concerning the presence of armed persons in the

25     demilitarised area?

Page 5379

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  There is a time we noted some -- some --

 2     some -- some men who were armed with small arms and we put that in our

 3     report, and it is here somewhere with us, yeah.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you, as observers, receive information in any

 5     other way except by personal observation?  Did you receive information

 6     from civilians or from the UNPROFOR, and did you pass on such information

 7     to your command?  If so, please describe how.

 8        A.   Your Honour, we received information from all sources.  We had to

 9     make sure that we receive everything that is available to us.  And not

10     only what we see ourselves as military observers.  So, in the process,

11     when you are told something and you have not confirmed, you've got to

12     indicate that it is not confirmed by you.  So even in the situation

13     reports that we used to send, something that comes as a rumour, hearsay,

14     or whatever you may call it, we could put there NCBU, not confirmed by

15     UNMOs.

16             Secondly, we used to hold meetings with both factions and we

17     could be told by this faction about the other and we could convey the

18     same to the other, in terms of trying to ensure that no open hostilities

19     arise, trying to ensure that the place remains safe, and also trying to

20     make sure that these people are getting closer and closer to each other.

21     But, at the same time, we had to communicate the same that we have

22     received from those meetings to our higher echelons so that they know

23     what is going on there.  Some issues that -- that we conveyed to our

24     higher echelons, that is, the UNMO headquarters, was -- you know, were

25     meant to be discussed at other levels, not at our level.  But we had to

Page 5380

 1     inform them what is happening so that they can be aware so that they can

 2     be able to investigate, and in case they want us to further investigate

 3     from the ground, they would tell us to do the same.

 4             And if you check most of the sitreps that are here, you will see

 5     something to that effect.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  In your answer, you refer to some of the things that

 7     you mentioned in your statement on page 2.  For the record, I would like

 8     the Registry to show you your statement in e-court, and that's

 9     Exhibit P992.  I will be interested in paragraph 2, line 8, where you

10     speak about your mission and what it consisted of.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the first page.  Can we put

12     it on the left side, with the English version on the right, and display

13     the second page, second paragraph, line 8 of the statement in Serbian.

14     In English, it's on page 3 -- or, rather, the next page.  That is the

15     page in English.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You say in line 8 of the second paragraph, which is in fact the

18     third one, you say:

19             "The mission of the UNMO was mainly to observe and register

20     violations of the demilitarisation agreement and bring the sides together

21     and try to get them to come to a solution."

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter cannot find the passage.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it is perhaps on the next page but I'm

24     not sure about that.

25             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, it's actually, I think, the prior

Page 5381

 1     page, page 2 of the English.

 2             Yes, top paragraph, I think:  "The mission of the UNMO team was

 3     mainly to observe ..."

 4             Is that what General Tolimir was just reading?  I think that is

 5     what General Tolimir was reading from is that top portion there, where it

 6     says:  "The mission of the UNMO team ..."

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  It's line 1 of the second

 8     paragraph on that page.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you see now what I've been reading?  Do you remember your

11     statement?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do, I remember this very well.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   From what I've just read, do I understand correctly that your

16     main task was to observe violations of the demilitarisation agreement, as

17     you indicated in this passage?

18        A.   Your Honour, it is not written the main mission, as you're

19     putting it.  It's the mission and is just one of the roles, because even

20     later on you can see I've said we also served as an intermediary between

21     the factions.  And even below there you can see I have written we

22     reported activities to, you know, and all that.  So it's not the main

23     mission, as you've put it.  It's one of the missions.  Because, after

24     all, if I may continue, after all, it was not in all areas in the former

25     Yugoslavia where we had safe areas, not everywhere was a UN protected

Page 5382

 1     area.  Not everywhere.  The UN protected areas were just a few of them, I

 2     think there were five, that was Srebrenica, Zepa, Sarajevo, Bihac, and I

 3     think one other, to make five.  Those were the only UN protected areas.

 4        Q.   Thank you for this explanation.

 5             However, if an area has the status of a demilitarised area and

 6     this status is violated, does that change the entire status of the area?

 7     Does it change your mission?  And isn't it your primary task to make sure

 8     that the area remains demilitarised, in order to keep its status?

 9        A.   Your Honour, I -- I really cannot be able to get what are you

10     saying, because it's not us to demilitarise.  It's not for the UN

11     military observers to demilitarise an area.

12             I explained much earlier that we were unarmed.  The weapons we

13     had were just a pen and a book.  So our mission was not to demilitarise

14     an area.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I did not suggest that it was your task to

16     demilitarise.  I suggested that your task was to observe whether the area

17     was demilitarised or not and to report.  You could only send reports but

18     you could write in your report whether an area remained demilitarised or

19     not.

20             Let me ask you this:  Was Tuzla a demilitarised area?  Just yes

21     or no.

22        A.   Demilitarised, I don't understand what you mean.  But if you're

23     talking about a UN protected area, Tuzla was not.

24        Q.   So Tuzla was just a protected area but not demilitarised; is that

25     right?

Page 5383

 1        A.   What I mean is, a UN protected area had several designations.  I

 2     don't know whether you can call designations, but the -- the protected

 3     area had to be demilitarised.  So if Tuzla was not -- not a UN protected

 4     area, it didn't have to be demilitarised.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You said a moment ago that Tuzla, Bihac, Gorazde,

 6     Srebrenica, Zepa, and Sarajevo were all UN protected areas, under a UN

 7     resolution.  Whereas, for instance, Tuzla held a US -- sorry, a NATO

 8     military base called Eagle.  How was it then possible for Tuzla to be a

 9     protected area?  Do you see the difference between -- is there a

10     distinction, in fact, between protected and demilitarised?

11        A.   Your Honour, for sure.  Let me repeat that I did not mention

12     Tuzla.  When I was talking about the UN protected areas there is nowhere

13     that I mentioned Tuzla, and you can go back to the report here.  I never

14     mentioned Tuzla at all.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

16             THE WITNESS:  And I can repeat those areas.

17             MR. THAYER:  Unless General Tolimir has some other source for

18     this statement he has made, if we look at the LiveNote transcript at page

19     79, lines 7 and 8, Colonel Kingori specifically mentioned Srebrenica,

20     Zepa, Sarajevo and Bihac.  He never mentioned Tuzla as being a safe area

21     and he's made it clear in his answer how he viewed Tuzla.

22             So unless General Tolimir has another source for the basis of his

23     question that suggests that Colonel Kingori said Tuzla was a safe area,

24     then I think, at the very least, we're speaking at cross purposes,

25     because no such thing was said today in the testimony.

Page 5384

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I didn't

 3     say the witness said it.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I am asking him, did Srebrenica have the same status as Tuzla?

 6     And is there a great difference between a protected area and a

 7     demilitarised area.  Let's take Bihac, for example.  Was Bihac a

 8     demilitarised area or not?  Was it both demilitarised and protected?

 9        A.   For the record, let me say straight and maybe a second time that

10     Srebrenica was a UN protected area.  Tuzla was not.  So I don't know what

11     else you want me to -- to say about -- they're two areas.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Witness, could you perhaps clarify one point

13     to avoid further discussions on that.

14             What is the difference between a protected area and a

15     demilitarised area?

16             THE WITNESS:  A protected -- a UN protected area, sir, meant that

17     the UN comes in there.  The United Nations peacekeepers go in there to

18     ensure that the people who are in there are safe, because they cannot be

19     able to defend themselves.  And in the process, an agreement has to be

20     crafted to make sure that all the weapons held by these people who are

21     inside there, the ones who were fighting there before, are kept in a safe

22     place, and especially all the heavy weapons is -- this was mainly because

23     of the Dayton Accord.  It was agreed that all the weapons, all the heavy

24     weapons have to be put in a safe area.  And that is why the UN now came

25     in as a maybe a battalion or two, depending on the size of the enclave to

Page 5385

 1     make sure that there is no attack that can be carried out from outside to

 2     the people living therein.  So that is the demilitarisation bit and the

 3     protection.

 4             So you get demilitarised, then you get UN protection.

 5             On the other hand, the other parts of former Yugoslavia were just

 6     like that.  People could fight, but, of course, in some areas, like if I

 7     give an example of Erdut area, that is that the Eastern Slavonia, though

 8     they had their own small arms, all the heavy weapons were put in various

 9     designated areas where we, as military observers could go there and check

10     the weapons using a list that we had to ensure that no weapon has been

11     taken away from that -- that area.  But, at the same time, is good to

12     know that they -- that is now -- if there is Eastern Slavonia, it's

13     Croats themselves are the ones who are making sure that that the weapons

14     are there.

15             At times, we could go and find some of the weapons had been taken

16     out.  Or we could get reports that some of the weapons have been used

17     against the other people.  And so we could go there and investigate which

18     is this type of weapon, from which store was -- was it taken out from,

19     and then make our reports.  And our reports were very strong in that now

20     it would be dealt with at a higher level, to make sure that all those

21     weapons are returned to the safe area.  Safe area in this sense what I'm

22     talking about is the store.  So that they are not used against the other

23     people at any other time.

24             If we go back to Srebrenica itself, all the heavy weapons were

25     removed from the Muslims and they were taken to Bravo Company.  That is

Page 5386

 1     B Company of DutchBat.  That compound, that is where those weapons were

 2     kept.  And they were not removed from there at all.  So that is why

 3     Srebrenica remained a UN protected area and also a demilitarised area.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that clarification.

 5             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can you tell us, sir, what is the difference between a protected

 9     area and demilitarised area and is there any difference to the status of

10     that zone?  In a protected area, did even small arms have to be removed

11     and stored; whereas in a demilitarised area, both heavy weapons and other

12     weapons had to be removed?

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the witness just has explained that.

14     It was exactly the same question I put to the witness.  But if there's

15     any additional information you need, then carry on.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  But the

17     witness did not explain the difference between Zepa and Slavonia.  In

18     Slavonia, only the heavy weapons were removed.  The -- the light weapons

19     were kept by the soldiers; whereas, in Srebrenica, both heavy weapons and

20     light weapons were supposed to be removed, taken away from armed persons.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Is that so?

23        A.   Here we are talking about the -- the weapons being taken away

24     from the Muslims in Srebrenica.

25             And the heavy weapons, I just said, were kept in DutchBat,

Page 5387

 1     B Company.  For the weapons that you're calling light weapons, they were

 2     also supposed to be taken away from them.  And in fact they did not have

 3     those -- those weapons.  But then, small arms, it was very difficult to

 4     control, you know, small arms.  It is very difficult.  Small arms, we're

 5     talking about like an AK 47, like pistols.  Those are difficult to

 6     control in any situation, in any condition, and especially so during war

 7     it's very difficult to control, you know, small arms.  But small arms

 8     cause minimal damage, and unlike the heavy weapons that the Bosnian Serbs

 9     had, they cannot cause a lot of harm.

10             Contrary to maybe the line of thinking that we may take what

11     there is, the Bosnian Serbs had all the weapons.  They had the heavy

12     weapons, they had the tanks, they had the artillery, the heavy pieces.

13     We're talking about 155-millimetres howitzers.  We are talking about

14     mortars.  We're talking about all those heavy weapons, even rockets.

15             So these there's a difference between these two, if you compare

16     the small arms, that is the AK 47 and pistols that maybe were left with

17     the Muslims in the enclave and the heavy weapons surrounding them, really

18     you cannot compare, really you cannot, because the Serbs were heavily

19     armed and were not hiding it because with them, you know, that was

20     normal.  But those inside the enclave, the Muslims, all the heavy

21     weapons, the mortars and all that, as I said earlier, were kept

22     somewhere.  But with small arms you could not be able to monitor all

23     that.  But compare the weaponry system of both sides.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

25             Mr. Tolimir, we have reached the time for the break today.  We

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 1     have to continue the examination tomorrow at 9.00 in this courtroom.

 2             And, sir, please don't contact either party about the content of

 3     your testimony during the break.

 4             We adjourn, and we resume tomorrow at 9.00.

 5                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of

 7                           September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.