1 Thursday, 23 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody.
6 Before the witness is being brought in, the Registrar would like
7 to make a correction for the record.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning.
9 I would like to indicate that P1022, marked for identification
10 yesterday, is admitted under seal.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 Yesterday at the end of the -- the hearing, we had a discussion
13 about the videos, the admissibility of documents and about the question
14 if the witness Janc is the perfect witness to introduce these documents,
15 as Mr. McCloskey indicated yesterday. The Chamber has a different view.
16 I think it must be very clear that it is, firstly, not a question of if
17 there's an objection by the other party, but it's the Chamber who has to
18 decide about admissibility and to protect the rights of the parties.
19 The second question is that we still have no indication that this
20 witness can testify about the content of the videos but only about the
21 chain of custody, how the OTP received these documents, otherwise, the --
22 the content of the videos should be explained by other witnesses and
23 introduced by other witnesses.
24 And, on the other hand, the question if this witness, Mr. Janc,
25 is the perfect or correct or right witness should have been elaborated at
1 the beginning of his testimony so that the Chamber is in the position to
2 understand the background. It was a quite late stage of the testimony of
3 this witness who was, at the beginning, introduced as a witness about
4 exhumations but not about the videos. But, nevertheless, I just wanted
5 to clarify the situation, why we were not inclined to make decisions
6 about the admissibility of the videos yesterday and why we postponed our
7 decision thereon.
8 I just wanted to make the position of the Chamber clear in this
10 Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I think Mr. Janc is
12 principally chain of custody, how we got the videos, so that we can play
13 them. It -- we thought it would be convenient for him to identify a few
14 people. But that's obviously a problem. So we won't do that, and -- but
15 if -- if it's all right with you, we will continue to have him identify
16 how we got things so can you see how we got them and -- and a bit of --
17 there's some authentication material too that I think you will -- that
18 actually relate to his forensics ability in one of these videos.
19 If we could go on as we did, but I think we will pull the -- his
20 views on who people are and -- but just continue to provide you with the
21 information, where it came from, how we got it, so that you can see that
22 it just didn't come there here haphazardly. Though sometimes they do
23 come in haphazardly but he will explain that as well. If -- if that's
24 all right. And I -- the -- and if you could possibly give us some
25 indication of, for example, the video of -- of Salapura, Mladic, the guy
1 with the white T-shirt, who in your view would be better placed than a
2 knowledgeable investigator, or is it just a matter of we should tell you
3 beforehand which investigator and what he plans to say. Is there someone
4 besides Mr. Janc that you had in mind, or is it a matter of just more --
5 more foreknowledge as is appropriate in the normal situation?
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First of all, it's up to the Prosecution to
7 decide how to introduce a witness and their documents. On the other
8 hand, it is for the preparation of the Defence very important to know in
9 advance, and this is the reason why we have this rule about 65 ter
10 witness summaries, what a witness will testify about. And I think we can
11 proceed on that basis today, but we wanted to clarify our position, why
12 we are not in a position to decide about the admissibility of these
13 documents immediately.
14 So I think if there is no -- nothing else to add and to discuss,
15 we should --
16 Mr. Vanderpuye was the first.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you,
18 good morning, Your Honour. Good morning, everyone.
19 I did want to clarify one thing and that is with respect to
20 Mr. Janc's testimony, the scope of his testimony. We did make the
21 Defence aware that Mr. Janc would be testifying on this subject matter.
22 As I mentioned yesterday, part of the reason why Mr. Janc is testifying
23 on this specific topic at this time, as you recall he is in the middle of
24 cross-examination on a different issue, is a matter of convenience and
25 also a matter of opportunity as well, given the scheduling and the
1 tensions gap in the evidence that's been put before the Trial Chamber.
2 So I just want to make that clear, that the Defence was on notice
3 of the scope of -- of Mr. Janc's testimony with respect to this subject
5 The other thing I wanted to mention was that in respect of
6 Rule 89(C), in terms of the admissibility of evidence, it is incumbent
7 upon the Prosecution to at least demonstrate the prima facie relevance of
8 the material that you're viewing. And to the extent that Mr. Janc may
9 offer evidence that relates to the relevance of the material that you're
10 seeing is -- as distinct from the chain of chain of custody, I would
11 submit that that's an appropriate area for him to testify about, assuming
12 that it's within his knowledge, or within his -- within -- within the --
13 his experience in order to establish the necessary relevancy for
14 admissibility purposes under Rule 89. I understand that, and I agree
15 with Mr. McCloskey completely, that if the Trial Chamber wants us to
16 refrain from eliciting that material we will do that. But I think -- I
17 think there is some room there for it, because it's incumbent upon us to
18 demonstrate relevancy and probative value for the purposes of
19 admissibility and that may entail identifying an individual in the video
20 who is intimately involved in the subject matter of the case, such as
21 Petar Salapura, such as General Mladic, such as General Gvero. That's
22 the reason why that evidence is appropriate and relevant in the case.
23 But, obviously, we will abide by whatever the Trial Chamber's
24 ruling is with respect to this issue.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We understand very well the difficulties the OTP
1 have to deal with, especially scheduling, filling up the court time.
2 Indeed, this is a big problem. We know that. And we appreciate that
3 normally always a witness is available and we don't lose court time.
4 This is -- I think we have to appreciate that.
5 You know our position about admissibility. I think I -- it's no
6 need to repeat that again. You should proceed with this witness and I
7 think that -- you have shown good reasons why you think these -- the
8 videos have probative value. But I don't want to repeat what I have said
9 at the outset of today's hearing.
10 Mr. Gajic.
11 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, good morning to
13 I would just like to raise two matters very briefly. We have
14 been informed by the OTP that this witness will testify about these
15 videos and their authentication. I would like to make the position of
16 the Defence very clear. We have not objected but we haven't consented
17 either. We have left the matter in the hands of the Bench, and we are
18 very satisfied with your decision, Your Honour. That's what I said to
19 Mr. Vanderpuye or Mr. McCloskey, I'm not sure which, and we will refrain
20 from taking a position on this matter.
21 And as for the second thing, yesterday on page 57 of the
22 transcript, line 19, it reads:
23 "[In English] But with respect to Mr. Tieger's objection."
24 [Interpretation] Instead of that, I believe it should read:
25 "[In English] But with respect to Mr. Tolimir's objection."
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we had a -- not Mr. Tieger but
2 Mr. Tolimir. If I recall it correctly, Mr. Tieger was not in court
4 We have it on the screen -- on the record now, and the witness
5 should be brought in. Thank you very much.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I have just an announcement, I
7 guess, a notice, that we have translations uploaded for P584 and P588.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. That clarifies the
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And to make it clear, it is now admitted into
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, Mr. Janc. Welcome to the courtroom
16 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye has some more questions for you.
18 Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President.
20 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC [Resumed]
21 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
22 Q. Good morning to you, Mr. Janc.
23 A. Good morning.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry I have to remind you that the affirmation
25 to tell the truth you made months ago still applies.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand, Your Honour.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE:
3 Q. Mr. Janc, we're going to continue from yesterday. The next video
4 is a video that is not dated, which we believe is from July 1995.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the record, it is 65 ter 2436.
6 Q. Can you tell us, are you familiar with this video and the
7 circumstances under which the Office of the Prosecutor came into
8 possession of it.
9 A. Yes. As for the other videos I'm also very well aware of this
10 video, and it is so-called Skorpion video of the killing of six Muslim
11 men in the area of Trnovo in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which is area south of
14 Muslim men which are transported to a certain location by the members of
15 the Skorpion unit and are subsequently killed, executed nearby.
16 Q. Before we play it, could you just tell us roughly how far Trnovo
17 is from Srebrenica?
18 A. Trnovo is south of Sarajevo
19 50 kilometres from Sarajevo
20 about 150 kilometres in addition. So in total I would say, that's my
21 rough estimation of around 200 kilometres.
22 Q. And if you're able to, can you tell us a little bit about the
23 Skorpions unit?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the
25 microphone for the sake of interpreters. Thank you.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE:
2 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about the Skorpion unit.
3 A. Yes. The Skorpion unit was initially -- was actually established
4 in 1993. Before that, that was a group of individuals who were deployed
5 when the war broke out in Croatia
7 In 1993, they became a Skorpion unit, and as such, part of the
8 then-army of the Serbian Krajina in Croatia. The unit was disbanded in
9 1996, in May of 1996, and during this time, they were a kind of a special
10 unit of the army of the Serbian Krajina in Croatia.
11 During this time, they were deployed to Bosnia on three occasions
12 also. First time in 1994 into Bihac area. Then in April of 1995 in
13 Velika Kladusa, also in BiH. And then for the last time, in Trnovo area,
14 in June of 1995.
15 At that time, they were deployed as a members of the Ministry of
16 Interior of the Republic of Serbia
17 unit has a close relations with the State Security of the Republic of
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina, requested support from the Ministry of Interior
20 from Republic of Serbia
22 Trnovo battle-field.
23 Q. I'd like to show you 65 ter 5337.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 May there be peace in this house for all those present and may
3 God's will be done in these proceedings, and may the outcome be as God
4 wishes and not as I wish.
5 I'm a bit late with my objection because we have moved on to
6 another topic. But I believe the witness has not seen these Skorpions
7 and he is also speaking about persons from the MUP of Serbia whom he
8 hasn't seen either. And this does not correspond to what is captured on
9 the video recording.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber doesn't know anything about the video
12 yet. We will see that. And, of course, what we have heard from the
13 witness was second-hand knowledge. He was not present at that time. He
14 was not part of the Skorpions and had no direct contact. But this is, I
15 think, obvious, that this is the knowledge he was able to gain during his
16 investigation, and only in this respect, the Chamber will receive this
17 information by the witness.
18 Carry on please, Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President.
20 Q. Mr. Janc, can you see the document that's in e-court now?
21 A. Yes, I can.
22 Q. And do you recognise it?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Is this a document that you reviewed in the context of -- of your
25 statements concerning the Skorpions unit?
1 A. Yes, that's correct. I did review this document.
2 Q. And can you tell us what about this document in particular
3 relates to what you've just said about the Skorpion unit?
4 A. Yes. This is a report from Ljubisa Borovcanin who was deputy
5 commander of the special police forces of the Ministry of Interior of
6 Republika Srpska at that time, and he is reporting from the forward
7 command post in Trnovo to his -- to several units. You can see addresses
8 there. And in first paragraph of this report, he is talking -- talking
9 about the unit, the units which were active in this Trnovo battle-field,
10 and he lists several names of those units, which are Kajman detachment.
11 I'm reading from the third line of the first paragraph now. Then Plavi.
12 And Skorpion. And then we have in brackets (Serbian MUP). And as I just
13 testified just before, so those three units represented the Serbian MUP
14 at that time. And what is meant by Serbian MUP are the -- are those who
15 represented the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia
16 Later on, down, we can also see that he is reporting, so several
17 paragraph where it says:
18 "In yesterday's clashes four members of the SBP," which are
19 members of his units, "and three members of the Serbian MUP were lightly
21 So he is reporting also about the casualties of this unit.
22 Q. Thank you for that. Are you aware of any situations or
23 circumstances in which the Serbian MUP worked together with
24 Mr. Borovcanin's units and with the units of the VRS?
25 A. They were deployed -- actually, there was an order on 10 of
1 July of 1995 from then-deputy minister of interior, Tomo Kovac, deploying
2 these units to Srebrenica to help with the operation on Srebrenica
4 Q. All right. Thank you for that. I have --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we please see the second page of the
6 English to have a full picture of that.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Please carry on.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you for that. I think I'd like to play
10 the videotape at this point. So if we could. In a moment I'll give you
11 the reference. It's 65 ter 2436. And we can watch it straight through.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. VANDERPUYE:
14 Q. Mr. Janc, you've had an opportunity to see the sequence in this
15 video-tape. It's part of the video. Can you describe a little bit for
16 us what precedes this clip that we've just seen, since this isn't the
17 entirety of the video sequence.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you answer, Mr. Janc, I note that there
19 was no French translation on the French channel today. Yesterday we
20 received French translation of the spoken words in B/C/S. Today, not. I
21 don't know the reason for that, but I wanted to put it on the record.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'm afraid I don't
23 know the reason for it either.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you may proceed and we will
2 receive the -- the answer of the witness.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. I think I was asking if could you describe, briefly and
5 generally, the sequence of events that precedes the clip that we've seen.
6 A. Yes, it's only part of the video, an excerpt from the video we
7 received from this confidential source. It's quite a long video,
8 actually, which starts with the priest again blessing these Skorpion
9 units before they go to the battle-field in Trnovo. And I -- based on
10 the statements from -- from the members of this unit, this is happening
11 in Croatia
12 And then we have several footages already from Bosnia-Herzegovina
13 when the Skorpion unit arrives in the area. We have footages from
14 Jahorina training centre and later on from the woods when they are
15 preparing for the battle. And then this video-clip, this portion of --
16 of the video starts.
17 Q. I'm going ask you a little bit about the chain of custody with
18 respect to this video. Now you mentioned that you reviewed some
19 documentation concerning the source of this video. Can you tell us what
20 that was.
21 A. Yes, the main source was, of course, the declaration of the
22 investigator Tore Soldal from 2005 because he was the investigator from
23 the OTP who received, obtained this tape from the confidential source.
24 And in this declaration we have the detailed specific of events which
25 happened and clarification how the OTP obtained this videotape. And, of
1 course, I have reviewed the statements of this confidential source.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could I have 6574 in e-court, please.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question.
4 JUDGE NYAMBE: I have a question for Mr. Vanderpuye.
5 Is the confidential source on your list of witnesses to be
6 called, the confidential source of this video?
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: The confidential source of the video is not on
8 the list of witnesses to be called. However, the videographer, the
9 person who took the video, as I understand it, is.
10 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: We have 6574 in e-court yet? We do.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There must be a reason for confidentiality of
16 this source. Is it because it is a source pursuant to Rule 70 or could
17 it be explained further in the courtroom in private session?
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: We can explain it a little bit further in
19 private session. So if we can go into private session, I think I can
20 explain it.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We go into private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 5809-5820 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 MR. VANDERPUYE:
19 Q. In terms of the --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment please.
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Carry on, please.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE:
24 Q. If we go to paragraph 11 - that's on page 3 of this document -
25 you will see in paragraph 11, there's a reference to -- well, it reads:
1 "In early December 2004, other investigators took statements from
2 relatives of two of the victims whose bodies had been exhumed from the
3 site in Trnovo."
4 Do you see that in the document, Mr. Janc?
5 A. Yes, I can see that.
6 Q. And did have you an opportunity to review any statements of
7 relatives of victims who were exhumed from the site in Trnovo?
8 A. Yes, I did review four of them. Those two which are mentioned
9 here and an additional two which were taken from them earlier on in 2005.
10 Q. And is the date of the statements that you reviewed -- the date
11 indicated in the statements that you reviewed, is that consistent with
12 the information that's recorded in this declaration?
13 A. Yes, it is. It was in December of 2004.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, at this time I would offer this
15 declaration into evidence.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Surprisingly, we have now a B/C/S translation of
17 this page. I would like to know if there are -- the whole document has a
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: It does.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. This will be marked for
21 identification and we will decide later, if it will be admitted into
23 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 6574 will be Exhibit P1023, marked for
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
1 Please carry on.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I see that we've got about two or
3 three minutes before the break, and this might be a good opportunity to
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed. Mr. Gajic, I see you're on your feet.
7 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a question
8 which I would like to put to the Prosecutor, actually. I think it's
9 about a document -- about document 06573, that's the 65 ter number. The
10 English language version is redacted. Much information is redacted.
11 However, the -- what I can see in Serbian in e-court is not redacted.
12 Perhaps the link between the two documents is wrong or possibly
13 the original English document is missing, so I kindly ask for this to be
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: I appreciate the observation. I think that's
16 something that we've got to look into, obviously, given the
17 representations that I've made about the confidentiality of the material.
18 So I will look into that and I will get back to you and the Trial Chamber
19 about it.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We must have our first
21 break now, and we will resume at 11.00.
22 We adjourn.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Our apologies for the delay. We considered the
1 situation during the break, and we want to make clear for the parties the
2 position of the Chamber.
3 We will marked for identification the video we have just seen
4 before the break. The reason to -- only to mark it and not to admit it
5 into evidence now is that Mr. Janc is able to identify the ERN number, to
6 identify that this is in the custody of the OTP, that this was obtained
7 from a source which is protected, pursuant to Rule 70 of our Rules; but,
8 of course, he is not the right witness to identify what is depicted in
9 the video: When did this shooting take place, where did that take place,
10 what is the background and so on. I don't want to go into details.
11 We are convinced that this video has a probative value but we
12 need more information, and we realised that on the list to be called of
13 the Prosecution there is Slobodan Stojkovic, and he will be in the
14 position to explain what depicted in the video, when was the video shot,
15 and so on. And, therefore, we would like to invite the Prosecution to --
16 to give us by this witness or in another way, more information about
17 the -- what we have seen in the video, when it -- when this happened, and
18 where this killing took place.
19 This is, of course, very important for the whole case.
20 Therefore, this video will be marked for identification.
21 One moment, please.
22 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 2436 will be Exhibit P1024, marked for
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We will also mark for identification the
25 declaration of the interpreter -- of the investigator of the OTP. I
1 don't recall his name at the moment. It is on the screen now. That will
2 be marked for identification as well because Mr. Janc told us that he saw
3 it the first time before -- or during his preparation of his testimony
4 for today.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I did intend to lead
8 further evidence concerning the -- the content of the video, that is, the
9 location, and other, I think, important information concerning its
10 authenticity and reliability, and certainly its relationship to the
11 salient issues in this case, including the information concerning the
12 victims and the exhumation of the site which I think are clearly relevant
13 and probative of matters under the indictment. And I think Mr. Janc is
14 particularly acquainted with this information and -- and this would be
15 helpful to the Trial Chamber, certainly in consideration of this video.
16 So that was my plan and then I plan to proceed also with two
17 other videos, which I hope to get through as well.
18 I'm reminded by Ms. Stewart that I have not tendered 65 ter 5537.
19 This was a document that I did actually show Mr. Janc and this is the
20 document, I think it's dated 1st July, 1995, and referring to the
21 Skorpion unit and we had it up on the screen in the record.
22 So I would tender this document at this time as well.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we have that back on the screen, please. I
24 think it was the order of Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin; is that correct?
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: It is a report. I just want to make sure I have
1 the number right, though.
2 Yes, it's 5 -- I'm sorry, it is 5337.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think this is correct.
4 I would like to ask Mr. Janc from whom did the OTP obtain this
5 document? Can you tell us a little bit about that?
6 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, from the top of my head, I would not
7 be able to say right now. Based on the ERN number, I think it's part of
8 the Republika Srpska MUP collection, but I would rather check -- check it
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: When have -- do you recall when you have seen
11 this document first?
12 THE WITNESS: I've seen this document, I think, around three
13 times so far, and for first, I would say, few years ago already. But I
14 cannot say exactly when. And also when I have been preparing for this
15 testimony I reviewed it once more.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This document will be marked for identification.
18 Because of the content of the testimony of Mr. Janc, we're just not
19 precisely clear about the chain of custody of this document and from
20 where it was obtained, and -- in relation to the content of this
22 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 5337 would be Exhibit P1025, marked for
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please continue, Mr. Vanderpuye.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Mr. Janc, in respect of your review of this video that we've just
2 seen concerning the events in Trnovo and the execution, the executions
3 that we've seen, were you able to ascertain additional information
4 concerning the location at which this -- these events occurred?
5 A. Yes, I was able to ascertain this additional information
6 regarding the location.
7 Q. And what is the nature of the information that you ascertained?
8 A. I personally never was at this particular location, but several
9 other members of the OTP, including Investigator Soldal, were there at
10 that location in 2005. And in September of 2005, there was also an OTP
11 photo-visual technician, Mr. Zoran Lesic, who attended the site, and I
12 talked to him during the course of preparation for my testimony, and, of
13 course, I've read his statement he has given to Mr. Tore Soldal. In
14 relation to the presentation of the site and corroboration with the
15 videos we have just -- video we have just seen, I talked to him and,
16 yeah, I got aware of -- of the location and during the presentation will
17 go over what he made, I think, in 2005.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to have 65 ter 6576 shown to the
20 Q. Do you recognise what we have here in e-court now, Mr. Janc?
21 A. Yes. This is the beginning of the presentation and it is the
22 aerial image of the area where the shooting took place, the shooting from
23 the video we have just seen, and if you click on -- on this photo for
24 first time ...
25 Q. Okay. Tell us what we see here.
1 A. Yes, on the left-hand side, we can see we have an arrow which
2 says "arrival site." This is the place when we can see the truck has
3 parked, and then the Muslim men are taken off the truck and lie down
4 on -- on the ground. This is the place, the location from that video.
5 On the right-hand side of this photo, we see several buildings
6 there, and the arrows which -- the arrow which depicts the execution
7 site. So this is the location where we can see these men -- these four
8 of those Muslim men being executed.
9 To the right-hand side of this arrow, we can see a white
10 renovated building, and inside this building, the last two of those six
11 Muslim men from the video were executed.
12 Q. Let me ask you before we go on, did you put these arrows in this
13 particular exhibit?
14 A. No, I didn't. Everything what we can see on this presentation
15 was made by Zoran Lesic.
16 Q. And did you compare what is indicated in this exhibit to what you
17 observed in the video itself?
18 A. Yes, I did compare. I did review. This presentation did compare
19 to all the information we have here in relation to this execution. And I
20 have to also add that this presentation is compilation of the photographs
21 which were taken during Zoran's site visit in September of 2005, and then
22 we see some footages from -- some stills from the actual execution video
23 we have just seen, and also there will be one or two photos at the end
24 showing -- which were taken from the video of the exhumation of those six
25 individuals which was conducted by the BiH authorities in April of 1999.
1 Q. And with respect to the markings that we see here, arrival site
2 and execution site, on this -- in this frame of the exhibit, does that
3 conform accurately to what you personally observed in the video?
4 A. Yes, I can confirm that. And when we will be going to these
5 specific locations, we'll see -- because it's a 360-degrees presentation
6 we will see the actual footages from the site, and then in -- we'll
7 compare those to the stills from the -- from the execution video.
8 Q. All right. Let's move ahead then.
9 A. If we go to the site -- where it says "arrival sites," to that
10 part of the video, and we click on it.
11 Okay. Now we have here the actual bridge you can see, and if we
12 turn around, so this is 360 degrees so this is actually how it looks like
13 at the spot. Okay. So let's go around. Okay. Stop.
14 So here is a bridge and there is a river or stream which you can
15 also hear on the video itself. So if you -- if you listen carefully you
16 would see in the background a stream of water. So that's because they
17 are very close to this water. So, and the actual truck stops in front of
18 this bridge.
19 And if we go around a little bit.
20 Q. To the right or --
21 A. To the right, please, yes. So go to the right. Okay, stop it
23 So this is the location on the right-hand side where you can see
24 the Muslim men lying on the ground. And if we can click in the middle of
25 the picture here, yes. So now this is taken from the actual video we
1 have just seen.
2 And if you click it again. So this is another picture from this
3 same video.
4 And we can click it once more.
5 And now can you see the actual road, the -- the photo which was
6 taken in 2004.
7 And if we go around, move around for 180 degrees, so -- okay.
8 Stop here.
9 So the bridge and behind the bridge you can see a little hill
10 which is quite a significant one, and if we click in the middle or on
11 that hill, yes, this one, you can see the footage, the still from that
12 video and you can see in -- behind this same hill when these individuals,
13 Muslim men, are walking towards the execution site.
14 And we can click it again. And this is the portion of the video
15 where the other members of the Skorpion unit are coming from that
16 direction. And just below that, there is a -- there is a portion of the
17 bridge which was, at that time, I think, made -- it was a wooden bridge
18 at that time.
19 So yeah, this is the area from the arrival site and we can see
20 them walking up there. And then if can you go back to the main -- main
21 aerial, if you click it up there, yes.
22 Okay. So now we can see that they are walking up from the
23 arrival site on this road and they turn left to the execution -- to the
24 field where they were later on executed, just on the opposite side of the
25 house which we can see underneath the -- this picture.
1 So, and, yeah, I would just like to emphasise also, I also -- I
2 already talked about the renovated house in which the last two men were
3 executed, just a little bit down and right this -- this white house, you
4 can see the foundation of -- of the house. And at that time during the
5 execution there was still a house, but during our site visit it's not
6 there anymore but foundations are still there. And to the far right of
7 the picture, you can see another house which is also -- which can also be
8 seen on the video on the execution video, and we have some stills,
9 additional exhibits prepared later on where we will see both of those
10 houses. Actually, all those three.
11 And now we can move to the actual execution site, if you click it
12 there, on that picture.
13 Okay. Now this is the place where first four men were executed
14 and behind you see this white renovated house now where the last two men
15 were executed. So we can move around a little bit, 360 degrees, so that
16 we can see the area around.
17 Q. Was there anything particularly distinctive about this area which
18 allowed you to compare it to the footage in the video, in order to
19 determine if it is the correct location or the location depicted in the
21 A. Yes. On the video, you can see, for example, those two trees
22 which they have a white colour. I don't know what the word in English
23 is, but those two white trees you can -- I'm not sure if it's those
24 particular ones but such trees you can see also on the video itself. So
25 that's -- that's one indication.
1 Q. And is there anything distinctive about the building itself?
2 A. We'll go to the building, to the building right now. But the
3 building is, as it was renovated, still in a same shape as it was in
4 1995, but it is just renovated at the time when we -- we were there, the
5 OTP was there. So, and now we can perhaps click on this building. It
6 should be a little bit right. Right to it. More. More -- more right.
8 Okay. Now we are in front of the building. And if we can move a
9 little bit left to it. Or we -- we made a circle around, 360-degree
10 circle first to see the area. Stop it -- just a little bit. Okay. Stop
11 it here first.
12 So here on the left -- right-hand side we can see the foundation
13 of this building which was there before. It's in 1995 but during our
14 site visit, it's not -- it is only the foundation. And on the left-hand
15 side, you see another building which -- which is depicted on the video on
16 the execution itself also.
17 Q. Is that what appears to be in the centre of the -- of the screen
18 here, at this --
19 A. Yes. And we can click on it. I think we'll have a link to ...
20 no. It's the other side. No, no, no. Go -- go back to execution and go
21 back to that point on -- here.
22 Okay. Now, can we move left a little bit. Okay. Now are in
23 front of the house where those last two individuals were executed. On
24 the left-hand side, you can see the doors. And inside this room they
25 were executed. And on the right-hand side you also have additional
1 doors, and in the middle there is a window. And if you can click on the
2 right-hand side on the green doors now. So this is the -- the video
3 still from the execution and we can see the -- actually there are no
4 doors but the -- and no window but this is exactly the same door and the
5 shape of the door and the same door from that building.
6 Can you click it one more.
7 Q. You're referring to the frame, the empty frames here that we see?
8 A. Yes, you're right, to the empty frames on this -- on this still.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. If you click it once more. And now we have the video still from
11 the video of the exhumation conducted in 1999. So and we can see here
12 the actual room on the left-hand side where the last two individuals were
13 killed. And, yeah, the same -- the same shape of the building and this
14 is actually taken from the -- from the exhumation video.
15 Q. Who carried out the exhumation, if you know?
16 A. The exhumation was carried out by the BiH authorities, Federal
17 Commission on Missing Person.
18 Q. Have you reviewed documentation in relation to the exhumation?
19 A. Yes, I did. In relation to my exhumation report which I
20 testified about, I have reviewed this stuff, these documents, and I also
21 included -- included them into my report. And this particular site is
22 referred in my report in section of other graves as Godinjske Bare site.
23 Q. And I just wanted to ask, the position of the door frame,
24 window-frame on the first floor and what appears to be a larger frame on
25 the right of the photograph and the window-frame in the middle on the
1 second floor of this building, are they consistent with the position or
2 relative position of these -- of these openings in the renovated building
3 that we saw before?
4 A. Yes. They are consistent. They are the same -- the same -- the
5 same position, yes. We can click it, on it again.
6 So ... you can see here that it is the same position still of
7 these frames but now they're doors. If we can move to the left a little
8 bit. Yes, thank you. And now we can click it on those -- those doors.
9 Yes, these ones, on the left-hand side.
10 So this the actual still from the video itself, so the killing of
11 last two Muslim men. And we can see the door and these are the same door
12 [sic] as we have seen on the -- the -- the photo before. And we can
13 click it perhaps once more on this one. So it's a close-up of the
14 individual who is shot.
15 And once more. So, and this is the -- the still taken from the
16 exhumation video so that's how this -- the remains of these individuals
17 were found, so it was -- this is the footage from 1999.
18 Once more, if we click it. So that's it.
19 Q. Okay. I wanted to ask --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think before you continue, there are several
21 questions by all the three Judges, and Mr. Tolimir wanted to raise
23 May I start, who did this compilation we have seen here now,
24 parts of photo, parts of different videos? Who made this compilation?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. This was made by the OTP
1 photo-visual technician, Mr. Zoran Lesic.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what was your involvement in the preparation
3 of this compilation?
4 THE WITNESS: When this compilation was prepared, that was in
5 2005, I was not even the member of the Tribunal yet. So my involvement
6 was just to contact him, to ask him -- to get, if he can provide me with
7 this presentation, and he gave me a tour, like I gave you today.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is Mr. Zoran Lesic still in -- member of the OTP?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed, he is still the member of the OTP.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 You told us about exhumation in 1999, and you mentioned a video.
12 We have seen a still of it. Can you tell us something, how the OTP
13 obtained this video?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. The OTP requested this video and
15 also along with other exhumation records from the BiH Federal Commission
16 on Missing Persons.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said that the photos we have seen in this
18 compilation were taken in 2004. Who has taken these photos?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, the photos from the site visit,
20 the one is just in front of us, were taken in September of 2004 by
21 Zoran Lesic.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Except Mr. Lesic, who took part in this site
23 visit? If you know.
24 THE WITNESS: Not from the top of my head. But there is his
25 statement talking about that so I would need to consult that.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you personally have never been at this site?
2 THE WITNESS: No.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I have understood you correctly.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, you understood me correctly. No, I was never
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Mindua has a question.
7 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, I have a question that was
8 touched upon by the Presiding Judge.
9 I would like to know, Witness, you said that the renovated house
10 as we see it now, the renovated house dates back to 2004, and exhumations
11 took place in 1999, including the stills that we saw of the last two men
12 that were killed inside the house.
13 Do you know who took those pictures in 1999?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, there is actually a video which
15 was made during the exhumation by the BiH authorities, BiH Federal
16 Commission on Missing Persons, during the exhumation. And we obtained
17 this video, the OTP I mean, and we have taken stills from that video.
18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. This is what I thought
19 I had gathered from what you said, given that the facts have happened or
20 should have happened in 1995. So the OTP states that from 1995 to 1999,
21 this house would not have been tampered with.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, based on the -- on the information we have
23 received, yes, that's the case. Because at that time most probably some
24 attorney came back to this location, and they discovered these mortal
25 remains of the individuals and then that's why this exhumation was
1 conducted. That's my understanding.
2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe.
4 JUDGE NYAMBE: Could we go back to the very first still that was
5 shown, showing the execution site and the - right - arrival site.
6 Can you tell the distance from the arrival site to the execution
8 THE WITNESS: Not exact one but I can say a few hundred metres,
9 based on the map I think which we can also see from the bottom of this
10 page. Yes. I think it is 200 metres only.
11 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay.
12 Can we go back to it again.
13 THE WITNESS: And we can see the actual -- if the bridge
14 coordinates at the top in the red square and the house coordinates, and
15 one can easily measure how far away these sites are. So but -- I cannot
16 say from -- just based on this information. I would need some software
17 to do this measuring.
18 JUDGE NYAMBE: Can we go back to the still again.
19 Are you able to say whether the houses between the two arrows
20 existed at the time of the execution?
21 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not able to say -- to say that. So I would
22 speculate, if can I confirm. But most probably that one, first one, or
23 the second one, from the arrow execution site on the left-hand side site
24 which is still destroyed, this must have existed at the time.
25 JUDGE NYAMBE: What was this site? Was it ordinary residential
1 area or an army barracks or something? What was it?
2 THE WITNESS: It is the place called Godinjske Bare and it is
3 close to Trnovo, according to the statements I read. 2 to 3 kilometres
4 away from the base where the Skorpion unit has billeted at the time.
5 JUDGE NYAMBE: In relation to the summary of your evidence, you
6 are referred to as somebody who is going to give updates on results of
7 exhumations and collection of human remains found on the surface. Were
8 you personally involved in any of these two activities, exhumations and
9 collection of remains from the surface?
10 THE WITNESS: No, for most of -- yeah, for most of them, I was
11 not present, no.
12 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 I wanted a clarification about whether this gentleman,
16 Mr. Zoran Lesic, who reconstructed the site, had previously seen the
17 footage of the event, and I wanted to ask whether the accused was present
18 when this was done in 1995, but you have already said that he wasn't. So
19 I'm left with the first question only.
20 Did Zoran Lesic see the reconstruction or, rather, make the
21 reconstruction of the site after having seen the recording of the event.
22 And the second question refers to page 37, line 18, where the
23 witness said that the exhumation was in 1999. Whereas, on page 33,
24 line 9, he said that the exhumation was in 2004. So I'm -- I -- I don't
25 know now when it actually was. Could we compare pages -- page 33,
1 line 9, and page 37, line 18.
2 Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I see on page 37, line 21, 20 to 21:
4 "And now we have the video still from the video of the exhumation
5 conducted in 1999."
6 This is the reference to the year 1999. And that is what I
7 understood from the witness about the time that the exhumation was
9 Is that correct, Mr. Janc?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct. The exhumation
11 was conducted in April of 1999.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, does that clarify the situation?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, but it
14 doesn't. Because in the document that we saw, P1023, in paragraph 11, it
15 reads that in early December 2004, an exhumation was conducted at the
16 site in Trnovo. Now how can both sets of corpses be exhumed -- or,
17 rather, the same sets of corpses be exhumed at two different locations?
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In my understanding, this is a typical question
19 to put to a witness during cross-examination. But perhaps you can,
20 Mr. Vanderpuye, pick that question up and continue with Mr. Janc's
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. As you may recall,
23 Mr. Janc has testified about this particular exhumation site and it's
24 contained in his report which was admitted before this Trial Chamber
25 on -- as P16 -- 170 and Annex D of that report which was P167.
1 Q. Mr. Janc, could you perhaps elaborate on your familiarity and
2 information concerning the exhumation which was conducted at the site
3 that you have identified as Godinjske Bare?
4 A. Yes, I can. And the video from the exhumation part of which --
5 or stills of which we have seen during the presentation was conducted in
6 1999 and that was the main exhumation conducted in that area. But since
7 the -- the mortal remains, the bones, were scattered around the area, I
8 know that there were additional not exhumations but just picking of these
9 additional bones in later time. And you might be correct, Mr. --
10 General, when saying that there was additional in 2004, and I agree with
11 you that there were at least two visits of the BiH members of the -- for
12 missing persons at that location, but the main exhumation was conducted
13 in 1999.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could we just have 65 ter 6574 in e-court for a
15 moment. It's P1023. We'll refer to paragraph 11, which is what I think
16 Mr. Tolimir is referring to.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, on page 44, line 10, you are
18 recorded as having said the document is P16170. This can't be correct.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Indeed, it's not. The document is P170, that's
20 the report. And P167, is the Annex D to the report, both of which are
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: And with respect to -- I'd like to have -- I'm
24 sorry, P1023, paragraph 11, please, shown to the witness. It's on
25 page -- page 3 I think in both documents -- both versions.
1 Q. Now General Tolimir referred to paragraph 11 as indicating that
2 an exhumation was conducted in 2004 in this paragraph. The
3 paragraph itself reads that:
4 "In early December 2004, other investigators took statements from
5 relatives of two of the victims whose bodies had been exhumed from the
6 site in Trnovo."
7 2004, therefore, refers to statements. And it continues:
8 "That on 1 February 2005
9 a letter detailing the exhumation of the victims."
10 Having looked at that, Mr. Janc, can you state with any certainty
11 whether or not General Tolimir is correct that there were exhumations
12 that were conducted in 2004?
13 A. Regardless of this information what's written here, I can state
14 with my testimony that there were at least two exhumations there. The
15 one being the main one in 1999, and later on, they picked up additional
16 bones which were found in vicinity of these houses. For sure, they were
17 not -- there was not only one. I -- I do remember reading several
18 different records about that.
19 Q. And in preparing your report that I referred to just a moment
20 ago, P170, reviewing the information concerning Godinjske Bare, were you
21 able to determine if the location where the exhumations were conducted
22 correspond to the locations that are indicated in the videotape and in
23 the exhibit we just looked at?
24 A. Yes, it correspond. And Mr. Amir Masovic, who was at the time
25 the head of the Federal Commission on Missing Persons, attended the site
1 together with the OTP investigators in order to show them the exact place
2 where these exhumation took place.
3 And just, I have to also reply to -- to the question of
4 General Tolimir, when he asked about the knowledge of Mr. Lesic before
5 went to a site visit. Yes, I am sure he was aware of this footage and he
6 reviewed this information before he went on a mission.
7 Q. Based on your review of the exhumation materials for your report,
8 can you confirm that the locations that are indicated in the exhibit that
9 contains the photographs taken by Mr. Lesic accurately reflect the
10 location where the exhumations occurred and where the killings occurred
11 as depicted in the video?
12 A. Yes, I can confirm that, yes.
13 Q. Can you do that independently of your -- your conversation with
14 Mr. Lesic regarding this particular exhibit?
15 A. Yes, it's possible, because every exhumation record includes the
16 exact coordinates where this exhumation take place and based on these
17 coordinates, you can pin-point the exact location, and that's how it's
18 possible to be done. And I would -- it is easy to go, then, to that
19 location and to check everything what was done by Mr. Lesic, take a few
20 photographs and make a comparison of the site with the actual exhumation
21 and execution video.
22 Q. And are the exact -- is the exact location of the exhumations
23 that were carried out in Godinjske Bare contained in your report or
24 referred to in documents that are mentioned in your report?
25 A. Yes, Godinjske Bare exhumation site is part of my report. It is
1 under section of other graves and the -- I also listed the documents
2 regarding the exhumation of this location. In addition, in the
3 confidential part D of my report, you will find the name of the
4 identified individual -- individuals through DNA.
5 Q. And in terms of the exhumation material that you examined, can
6 you tell us how these remains were recovered? Were they recovered from
7 the surface or were they recovered -- were they dug out from under the
9 A. Yes, they were most -- most of them on -- on a surface. We can
10 see the footage from inside the house as they were collected from inside
11 the house. But some of them were over the time, because several years
12 elapsed before -- in between, and they were covered with a few
13 centimetres of the soil. And what is very important here is that they
14 were -- bones were scattered around the area and it was -- I can confirm,
15 yes, they were collected from this site.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to offer 6576 into evidence at this
17 time, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Once again, what is this document?
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: This document is the presentation that we just
20 showed, the one with the arrows and the locations and --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, the compilation of stills and videos.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yeah.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, the Chamber will decide on that
3 You should proceed.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 I'd like to --
6 Q. You've indicated, Mr. Janc, that the victims that are depicted or
7 shown, I should say, in this video that we've seen, have been identified.
8 Can you tell us what the source of your information is, what is the basis
9 of your knowledge?
10 A. Yes, they were all identified through DNA process by the ICMP,
11 International Commission on Missing Persons.
12 Q. I'd like to show you, if I may, 65 ter 2435A.
13 Do you recognise what is depicted here, Mr. Janc?
14 A. Yes. This is the video -- the still from the same video, from
15 this execution video.
16 Q. All right.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: And if we can zoom out just a little bit so we
18 can see the name.
19 Q. Do you see the name here, Safet Fejzic? Mr. Janc, were you able
20 to confirm the identity of this individual; and if you were, can you tell
21 us on what basis?
22 A. Yes. Apart from the DNA
23 individuals have also been identified by the -- their relatives. And
24 four of these relatives the OTP interviewed in 2004 and 2005, and one of
25 those being this individual who was identified by his sister.
1 Q. All right.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we can go to the next page, please.
3 Q. Can you tell us about this individual? Were you able to
4 identify -- were you able to identify this person, indicated here as
5 Juso Delic?
6 A. This individual was identified through DNA only. We don't have
7 the actual statement of the relatives.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we can go to the next page, please.
9 Q. You see here two individuals, Sidik Salkic and Azmir Alispahic.
10 Were you able to confirm their identity; and, if so, on what basis?
11 A. Yes. They were also both identified by -- identified by the
12 relatives. Sidik Salkic by his son; and Azmir Alispahic by his
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: And if we can go to -- I think it should be the
15 last page of this exhibit, ending 890.
16 Q. Here we see an individual identified as Smajil Ibrahimovic. Were
17 you able to confirm his identity; and if so, on what basis?
18 A. Yes, I can confirm. He was identified by his wife.
19 Q. Now, if we can just go one page back, ERN ending 889.
20 We have here a list of six individuals. Number 1 is indicated as
21 Safet Fejzic; number 2 is Dino Salihovic; 3, Juso Delic; 4,
22 Azmir Alispahic; 5, Sidik Salkic; and 6, Smajil Ibrahimovic, who we just
24 With respect to Dino Salihovic, can you confirm his identity and
25 on what basis, if you can?
1 A. Yes, the individuals under number 1, 4, 5, and 6, they were all
2 identified through their relatives. Individuals under 2 and 3, these are
3 the two you are asking me right now, were identified through DNA. And I
4 was able to conclude who is who based on their date of birth. We can see
5 that the individual under number 3 is older than the individual under
6 number 2. And one was born, based on their data we have in our records,
7 in -- I think in 1970, and the other one, 1979 or 1978. So the
8 individual under number 2 was 16 or 17 years old only at the time.
9 Q. Now with respect to all of these individuals were you able to
10 ascertain whether or not they are in any way connected to the events in
12 A. Yes. I can confirm they are all on the lists of the individuals
13 missing from Srebrenica, and they were reported as missing in 1995, after
14 the fall of Srebrenica. Not only that. Also, from the statements of
15 their relatives which recognised them from this video, it can be
16 concluded that they all departed Srebrenica after the fall together with
17 the column. The individual under number 4, which was identified by his
18 brother-in-law, he departed actually together with him. They were
19 together, part of the column heading towards Tuzla. And that at one
20 point in time when there was heavy shelling, they -- they lost each other
21 and this brother-in-law has never seen him again. So they are all the
22 victims from -- or actually, the individuals which are on Srebrenica
23 missing list.
24 Q. And the individual identified as Safet Fejzic, number 1 here, you
25 indicated he was identified by his sister?
1 A. Yes, that's correct, by his sister.
2 Q. And did you review her statement?
3 A. Yes, I also reviewed her statement.
4 Q. And based upon your review of that statement, can you say whether
5 or not her statement connects him to the events in Srebrenica?
6 A. Yes, also her statement connects him to the events in Srebrenica.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the record, and for Your Honours' benefit --
8 if we can just go into private session for a moment, please.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
10 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you move to another document I would like
2 to put one question to the witness.
3 You said some of these individuals were identified by their
4 relatives. Was there, in addition to that, a DNA analysis?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I can confirm for all of -- for
6 all of them, for all six of these individuals, there are DNA
7 confirmations of their identifications.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I remember correctly, at the beginning of your
9 testimony before the summer recess, you -- you were shown lists of DNA
10 analysis and the outcome of such an investigation, and you explained a
11 lot on that. Do you remember if these six individuals were contained in
12 this -- these lists we have seen earlier?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, these six individuals are
14 included into these lists and into my report.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
16 Mr. Vanderpuye.
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 I would like to tender 65 ter 2435A.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document will be received as an exhibit, the
22 set of photographs with the names we have seen.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I just wanted to
24 point out -- oh, I'm sorry, I'll wait.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1026.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 I just wanted to point out for the Court's benefit that with
4 respect to the DNA
5 director of forensic science from the ICMP will who come and testify
6 about the DNA
7 that, you have already Mr. Janc's report concerning this particular
8 exhumation site along with the underlying exhumation and reports and data
9 that support it, and they are referred to in the report itself, and I
10 believe most of them are actually in evidence alongside the report.
11 What I wanted to show the witness is 65 ter 6575.
12 Q. Mr. Janc, are you able to tell us what's on the screen right now?
13 We'll zoom in a little bit in just a moment so that you can see it more
15 A. Yes, I can. This is an exhibit regarding the comparison of the
16 two videos, the site comparison. On the left-hand side, we have the
17 photographs from the execution video we have seen today. And on the
18 right-hand side, we have the photographs from the exhumation video
19 conducted in 1999. And then inside each and every single picture we have
20 red circles which depict the same features on both videos.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. And again, I can tell that I haven't produced this exhibit. The
23 only thing which is mine is the heading line which says "From the
24 execution video" and "From the exhumation video." The rest was done by
25 the Case Manager for the then-Milosevic trial, Iain Reid.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If we could just go and blow up the
2 first row of pictures, just the first row. Make it a little bit bigger,
3 please. Keep going. I think that's all right.
4 Q. What we have are two circles in the photograph on the left, and
5 two circles in the photograph on the right. And can you tell us what
6 they represent? What do they show?
7 A. Yeah, they are showing the -- the same features on both -- on
8 both videos, on both stills. On the left-hand side from execution video
9 and on the right-hand side from the exhumation. So the doors, and the --
10 the window from the same building.
11 Q. And are these consistent with the building that we see in the
12 compilation exhibit that we looked at before, the renovated building,
13 that is, the position or relative location of the doors and windows?
14 A. Yes, this is the same building.
15 Q. Okay. And is this consistent with your own independent
16 observation in comparing these -- these two video footages?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we can go to the next -- next row down,
19 please. That's row number 2. That's pretty good.
20 Q. Can you tell us what we see here? What is being compared?
21 A. Yeah, from the right-hand side, we have two circles depicting the
22 same door and video -- and window, sorry. On the left-hand side, there
23 is a big red circle around the main doors from the room where the last
24 two Muslim men were executed. And there is then a little red circle
25 which -- which shows the damage on the house.
1 Q. All right. So we're going from left to right.
2 The next circle in the photograph on the left is around what
3 appears to be a window and somebody's head is in that circle. Do you see
5 A. You mean on the -- the man in green?
6 Q. I'm sorry, the photograph on the left.
7 A. Yes, there are -- these two members -- this is the member of the
8 Skorpion unit.
9 Q. Okay. And does that circle -- how does that circle relate to the
10 photograph on the right?
11 A. It's -- it depicts the window, the same -- the same window.
12 Q. Okay. And then the last circle in the photograph on the left,
13 can you tell us what that corresponds to in the photograph on the right?
14 A. These are the -- the -- the big doors, I think going to garage
15 from the right-hand side of the building.
16 Q. All right. Let's go down to the next row, please, row number 3.
17 Can you tell us what's depicted here?
18 A. Yeah, can you see the -- the features of the -- of the houses
19 behind -- behind this one where those two last men were executed. So on
20 the left-hand side we have a circle about the house which was still there
21 in 2004, and I emphasised that when we have been watching the
22 presentation that that house is still there. But that, on the right-hand
23 side, we have, I think, the circle around this part of the building, the
24 pole, I think, which was there in 1995 and still in 1999 during the
25 exhumation but not anymore in 2004. We have seen there are only
1 foundations of this house.
2 Q. Now, photograph on the left, the one with the -- the first
3 circle, that is, from the left side, what circle appears to be quite
4 blurry. Is there any distinctive in that photograph that allows you to
5 make a comparison with the photograph on the right?
6 A. We can see from the left-hand side, we can see the roof of the
7 house in white, so -- and also part of the roof is damaged, so we can see
8 this clearly on both pictures.
9 Q. All right.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Let's go to the next row, please.
11 Q. Can you tell us what we see in this row, 4?
12 A. Yeah, it's basically the same as before. Part of the house,
13 destroyed house, and this -- this pole -- of the second house.
14 Q. That's the same roof and post that are depicted in row 3?
15 A. Yeah, that's -- that's the same house. Both are the same houses.
16 Q. All right.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Let's go down to the last one.
18 Q. And can you tell us what we see here?
19 A. Yes, there is a small red circle around the hook of the doors of
20 the room where the last two men were executed. And down there, you can
21 see even the doors are the same, and we can even see that the -- the hook
22 is damaged. And on the biggest circle, red circle, it depicts this part
23 of the doors which are the same.
24 Q. All right. Thank you for that, Mr. Janc.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to tender this
1 exhibit as well.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc, can you tell us who made these markings
3 on the photos, the circles?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. These markings were done by
5 Case Manager for Milosevic trial, the OTP -- the member of the OTP,
6 Iain Reid.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And who decided about the location of these
8 circles? Was it technically made by the Case Manager or was he assisting
9 another person?
10 THE WITNESS: This exhibit has been prepared for Milosevic trial.
11 It meant to be used for that trial but it wasn't. So -- and he was
12 supporting on the investigative team with this exhibit.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
14 This set of photographs on this page will be marked for
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 6575 will be Exhibit P1027, marked for
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Let me just ask one other question before we
21 Q. Do the photographs that we've seen in P1027, do they conform to
22 your independent observations of the video footage that we've seen in
23 court today and that you've looked at in preparation for your testimony?
24 A. Yes, they do. And most probably I would do something similar and
25 just not to repeat the work once more. That's what I found on the OTP
1 system, and then I considered it as an important and very useful exhibit
2 for this trial, that's why I picked it up and wanted to present this one.
3 But I would be able to -- to do it the same.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I think it's the break time,
6 so ...
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, Mr. Vanderpuye, we have our second break
8 now, and we will resume at 1.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye, please go ahead.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Mr. Janc, I wanted to go through the last pair of videos that we
14 have. The first one, we have an indicated date of December 2nd,
15 2nd December 1995
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the record, it's 65 ter 5499.
17 Q. Do you have familiarity with this video footage?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about it by way of background what
20 it shows and the context in which it's shot.
21 A. It's a ceremony taking place at the stadium -- soccer field,
22 actually, in Vlasenica on 2nd December 1995, when the Drina Corps --
23 Drina Corps Manoeuvre Brigade has been established.
24 Q. And can you tell us just generally who is featured in this -- in
25 this video footage.
1 A. There are several VRS Main Staff officers present, including
2 General Ratko Mladic, Colonel Ljubisa Beara. Then the commander of the
4 Jolovic Milan. And also the others -- the other members of the VRS.
5 Q. And in terms of the chain of custody or the means by which the
6 Office of the Prosecutor acquired this particular video footage, can you
7 give us an idea of how that occurred?
8 A. This one was also obtained during the search of General Mladic's
9 son apartment in Belgrade
10 over to the OTP on -- in April 2009, along with other original stuff
11 which was seized, and it was marked by the authorities of the Republic of
13 Q. All right. Thank you for that.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: And just for Your Honours' information, that was
15 referred to -- I don't have the P number for it right now. 6578. This
16 was the exhibit, as you recall, with the missing page in it, P1017, and
17 it refers to item number 20 in that -- in that search inventory list.
18 What I'd like to do now is play the video.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
21 Q. Can you tell us just in this frame right now that we've frozen
22 continue at, who's depicted in it? I'm sorry, it's at 21 seconds in this
24 A. Yes, the first individual with his back to the camera and with a
25 black beret who is saluting to General Ratko Mladic is Legenda.
1 Jolovic -- his name is Jolovic Milan. He was the commander of the
2 Drina Wolves during the -- in July 1995, part of the Zvornik Brigade,
3 but, at this time, he is becoming the commander of this newly established
4 Manoeuvre Brigade of the Drina
5 The individual who Legenda is saluting to is General Ratko
6 Mladic. Behind Ratko Mladic is General Radoslav Krstic, at the time the
7 commander of the Drina Corps.
8 And we've seen just few seconds before, also there is additional
9 individual behind General Krstic. We don't see him right now, but that
10 one is Colonel Ljubisa Beara. He is the officer of the security
11 department -- actually, the chief of the security department of the
12 Main Staff.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: We can continue. We'll continue playing from
14 here forward.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. VANDERPUYE:
17 Q. Can you tell us who is in the frame now that we've stopped at
18 34 seconds in this video?
19 A. Yes, we have these same VRS members. In addition, we have the
20 man who is the last -- or the first from the left on this video, in
21 glasses with grey hair, this is Colonel Ljubisa Beara.
22 Q. And how do you recognise these individuals? What's your basis of
23 knowledge to be able to identify them here?
24 A. They were identified several times by different individuals whose
25 statement I've read. And also, in addition, for Legenda, for Jolovic,
1 he -- General Mladic is referring to him during the speech he will make
2 later on in this ceremony. For General Radoslav Krstic and
3 Ljubisa Beara, they were both indictees, accused in this Tribunal.
4 Ljubisa Beara for Popovic case, and General Krstic for its own case.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: And with respect to your identification of
6 Jolovic Milan, Legenda, so far we have only seen the back of his head.
7 Are you able to make that identification from other footage in this clip?
8 A. Yes, indeed. And I have to emphasis here that this is only an
9 excerpt of a long video, and I reviewed the entire video. What we have
10 here is just portion of it, and based on what we can see on the entire
11 video, yes, I was able to recognise him, and I can say I confirm that
12 this is the same person, that that's him.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Your Honours, I just wanted to point out to you
15 that it was our intention, in terms of all these video-clips, to tender
16 both the clip, that is, the excerpted part of the and the video as we
17 received it in its entirety, so that if it is admitted, you can review in
18 its full context. The reason we have it in clip form now is just for the
19 sake of brevity, ironically. But we can continue from here forward.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to tender this video
22 as well. I know that we have a standing ruling to have it marked for
23 identification, so I -- I guess I'll modify my application in that
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask the witness about the source from where
1 you or the OTP was able to obtain this video?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, it is part of the collection of
3 the material which was seized on 4 December 2004 during the search of
4 Ratko Mladic's son apartment.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. And, sorry, I repeated that -- that
6 you had to repeat that. You said it earlier.
7 Do you know if that was part of a public television service or
8 something like that? Or is it only a video it was found in the apartment
9 of General Mladic's son?
10 THE WITNESS: You can see from the video itself that there are at
11 this ceremony three cameras present, and one of those was being public TV
12 station, and the OTP has been, before that, already in possession of that
13 video from the public station, and this video is part of the VRS camera.
14 And it was even noted on the VHS tape itself that it is celebration in
15 Vlasenica on 2nd of December, 20 -- 1995.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. This video will be marked
17 for identification. I would like to add provisionally.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Let me just ask --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, please always wait.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Sorry.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If we want to have marked it, we need the number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 65 ter 5499 will be Exhibit P1028,
24 marked for identification.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE:
1 Q. Let me just ask you, Mr. Janc, have you had an opportunity to
2 view this other footage that you've referred to, of this same event?
3 A. Yes, I have had the opportunity to review also the other version
4 of it.
5 Q. And does it conform to the version of the events that we've just
6 seen now in court, or are there any differences in that footage?
7 A. There are some difference, because it's different camera and
8 certain events you can see from different angle. But all the rest is the
9 same. And this version we have just seen is much more extensive one than
10 what we have had before.
11 Q. All right. I'd like to ask you about the final video we have,
12 and that's, for the record, 65 ter 5498. And that relates to an event on
13 13 January 1996
14 Are you familiar with this video footage?
15 A. Yes, I am familiar also with this footage.
16 Q. Can you tell us briefly what the source of the footage was, or
17 is, with respect to its acquisition by the Office of the Prosecutor?
18 A. It is the same as for the previous one. It was seized during the
19 search on 4 December 2008
20 authorities of the Republic of Serbia
21 video was actually marked as a video with sequence number 52.
22 Q. That's -- that's item number 52 in the P1017. This is the
23 exhibit with the missing page that was fixed, for the record.
24 And can you tell us briefly who's depicted in this video, what
25 the context of it is.
1 A. Yes, it's actually the celebration of the Orthodox new year from
2 13 January to 14 January 1996
3 sorry, in Crna Rijeka, not in Han Pijesak, and it is a lot of general --
4 VRS Main Staff generals present celebrating this event, along with --
5 with -- with others here. I mean, General Mladic's wife is there also,
6 and also the other generals. We can see them from the video.
7 Q. All right. Before we get started with that, can you tell us, was
8 General Tolimir there?
9 A. No, he is not -- he was not there. And we cannot see him on a
10 video either. And from a speech which was made by General Mladic, he
11 refers to him, and he says that he is absent and he -- that is he in
13 Q. All right.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think we can start this one. We can play it
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. VANDERPUYE:
18 Q. Mr. Janc, are you able to identify or recognise anyone in this
19 frame? We've stopped at 3 minutes, it appears, in this clip.
20 A. Yes. First individual from the right-hand side, smoking a
21 cigarette, he is General Milan Gvero.
22 On his right-hand side, sitting next to it, is General
23 Manojlo Milovanovic, he was Chief of the Staff of the Main Staff,
24 VRS Main Staff.
25 Then we have one woman which I cannot recognise. Then next to
1 that woman we see on this video General Ratko Mladic.
2 Q. All right. Is there anybody else you are able to recognise or --
3 or is that it for now?
4 A. From this frame, I am -- I'm not sure, but I think that the
5 person with the grey hair towards the end of this footage on the
6 left-hand side, it's General Radivoje Miletic.
7 Q. And just so that the Trial Chamber is familiar with who that is,
8 can you tell us who General Radivoje Miletic is.
9 A. Yes, he was one of the accused in Popovic et al trial, and he was
10 the member of the Main Staff, the chief of operations, and he has been,
11 at the time, during Srebrenica events, replacing Chief of Staff,
12 General Milivoje Milovanovic.
13 Q. And what's your basis of knowledge with respect to the
14 identification of the individuals that you've made in this frame?
15 A. For General Milan Gvero and Radivoje Miletic, I can say that they
16 were both accused in Popovic and all case. For General Manojlo
17 Milovanovic, I met him personally here during the proofing session, so I
18 know him, and I -- I can confirm that's him sitting there. And also
19 from -- from the videos, especially for General Milan Gvero, I can say
20 that there is many, many videos which I have reviewed during my -- my
21 working here at the Tribunal where he was several times referred as
22 General Gvero and then he is making speeches, so it's not -- it's for
23 General Gvero, it is very easy to identify him.
24 Q. All right.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And for the sake of the record, I'm not sure if
1 that was recorded correctly in line 19 of page 65, you speak -- you are
2 recorded as having mentioned General Milovanovic. Were you referring to
3 him or to a different person?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm referring to General Manojlo Milovanovic.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE:
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. I think we can continue on from here.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this video as
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked for identification; and, again,
12 at -- provisionally marked.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1029, marked for identification.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE:
16 Q. During the course of the speech given by General Mladic,
17 Mr. Janc, he made reference to someone by the name of Furtula, someone by
18 the name of Trivic, and someone by the name of Kusic in relation to Zepa.
19 Can you just tell the Trial Chamber who these individuals are as the
20 investigations and your involvement in them have revealed?
21 A. Rajko Kusic, he was the commander of Rogatica Brigade at the
22 time, in July of 1995. Radomir Furtula, he was the commander of one of
23 the Podrinje Brigade from Visegrad at the time. So I cannot remember
24 the -- the number of the brigade, but that's him. And the third one was
25 Mirko Trivic. He was the commander of the 2nd Romanija Corps --
1 2nd Romanija Brigade, not corps, sorry.
2 Q. And as the investigation -- well, let me ask you, does the
3 investigation confirm what General Mladic was saying, concerning the
4 involvement of these units in the Zepa campaign?
5 A. Yes, it -- it confirms. Because all of those units were involved
6 in the Zepa operation. So it confirms, yes.
7 Q. Thank you very much for that, Mr. Janc. That concludes my direct
8 of you. I thank you very much for your participation and I thank you for
9 your indulgence.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Your Honours, there was one matter that was left
11 unattended and that was with respect to Mr. Janc's qualification of a
12 certain document. It was a MUP document dated 1 July 1995, and I think,
13 Mr. President, Your Honour asked for the source of that information and
14 Mr. Janc responded that he'd need to check it. And I would like to have
15 him do that so that we can provide that information to the Court, but we
16 need your leave in order to have him do that. So I would ask for that.
17 The document, more particularly, is P1025; it was marked for
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We talked about that earlier, the order or report
20 of Ljubisa Borovcanin; is that correct?
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, that's correct.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We would appreciate to receive this additional
23 information with the assistance of Mr. Janc.
24 I would like to know, do you intend further examination-in-chief
25 of Mr. Janc for another topic, or what is your position?
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 We don't have anything in mind at the moment. It -- the
3 circumstance may arise where we -- where we may have scheduling issues
4 which we may be able to introduce further evidence through Mr. Janc or
5 perhaps through another investigator. But, at the moment, we don't have
6 anything specifically planned for him.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
8 Mr. Tolimir, your cross-examination which started before the
9 summer recess was just interrupted, and I would like to ask you, are you
10 prepared to continue with your cross-examination today in the last
11 ten minutes of today's hearings, or would you like to do that at a later
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 If you want us to proceed, then I would like to deal with the
15 topic at hand; whereas, the other matters would be addressed at a later
16 stage as soon as the OTP calls the relevant witness. Or if you should so
17 decide, we can continue at a later stage.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, Mr. Tolimir, my question was the other way
19 around. It is up to you. You should decide. Because after this lengthy
20 examination-in-chief, perhaps you need more time for preparation of your
22 But if you are prepared, we can use the last ten minutes and you
23 should proceed. But it's up to you to decide.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 I don't believe that we can even have a look at the relevant
1 documents in e-court in the remaining ten minutes. I believe it would
2 only be a waste of time. We still need to upload some of the relevant
3 documents. We haven't had time to do that, and it would take too long to
4 do it now.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This was my expectation, and therefore, I think
7 it's better not to continue with your cross-examination today. We should
8 do that at a later stage and then you can prepare properly.
9 Mr. Vanderpuye, what is your plan for next week?
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think we have Mr. Clark coming on Tuesday.
11 Then we have ...
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I understand that we have several hours that
14 have been estimated for Mr. Clark. I think we have a cross-examination
15 or Defence estimate of three or four hours for him.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Then we have --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't need --
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think we have a second witness after that who
20 is --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. I just wanted to know in which way we will
22 proceed on Tuesday, because we are not sitting on Monday and only three
23 days next week.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: We do have a witness lined up for Tuesday for
25 sure and a following witness.
1 I also wanted to mention, since the cross-examination of Mr. Janc
2 will be put off but he obviously still works for the Office of the
3 Prosecutor and we do need to have contact with him in relation to other
4 matters concerning his responsibilities and also concerning the future
5 investigation and the course of the case, we do need the Court's leave to
6 have contact with him and so I'm asking for that as well. I don't
7 know -- and I don't know, I don't believe that the Defence has any
8 objection to that given the circumstances, but there it is.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think there's no problem, because we -- we are
10 in the same situation after the first part of the examination of this
11 witness. There's no concern. Otherwise, you wouldn't get a salary for
12 your work if you are not able to work.
13 Of course, but, on the other hand, you should restrict your
14 contact with the witness to additional information related to the
15 document we have mentioned earlier, P1025, MFI, and, otherwise, of
16 course, Mr. Janc should work in the normal way.
17 Are there any other matters to raise now?
18 I don't think so. So that we have to adjourn now. We will
19 resume on Tuesday next week in the morning at 9.00 in this courtroom.
20 And for Monday, we wish you, Mr. Tolimir, all the best.
21 Thank you very much. We adjourn.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m.
23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of
24 September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.