Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6473

 1                           Tuesday, 19 October 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody.  First of all, I

 6     would like to make a correction for the transcript.  We have noted that

 7     on the transcript of the 5th of October, page 6095, line 10, there's

 8     mentioning of the P number 824.  This is a wrong number.  It should be

 9     P848.  This was related to a document which has now a translation.

10             I was informed, Mr. Vanderpuye, that you want to raise a

11     procedural matter.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And good afternoon to

13     you and Your Honours.  Welcome back.  I do have a preliminary issue with

14     respect to the next witness, Your Honours.  This witness -- if we can go

15     into private session for one moment, please.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We go into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6474











11 Pages 6474-6475 redacted. Private session.















Page 6476

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Just the other

 6     matter, just as a point of information for the Court, is that we do have

 7     investigator Erin Gallagher?  Scheduled to follow this witness tomorrow

 8     should there be a necessity for that.  I'm not sure if the Trial Chamber

 9     was aware of that, but we of course have communicated that to Mr. Gajic

10     and through him to Mr. Tolimir.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  The Chamber has received

12     this proposal as well.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And we are prepared to proceed with the next

14     witness at this point.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should go into private session.  No,

16     Mr. Gajic, sorry.

17             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] I would like to greet all, Your

18     Honours.  During the cross-examination of the witness, the Defence used

19     1D243; however, we omitted to tender it into evidence.  So we would like

20     to ask that it be admitted now.  This is the statement of the witness who

21     had testified yesterday.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed that was the OTP statement of the witness

23     of yesterday.  This will -- the Prosecution is in agreement with that or

24     not?

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If you could just bear with me for one moment,

Page 6477

 1     Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No problem.  Mr. Gajic.

 3             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] While the Prosecutors are

 4     consulting, Mr. Tolimir would also like to raise a question that doesn't

 5     have to do with the proceedings directly, but some other matters.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should wait for the Prosecution to finish

 7     their conference.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President, we appreciate your

 9     patience.  Mr. President, we don't think that it's always appropriate to

10     put in an entire witness statement in order to address issues raised by

11     the witness, but in this case we don't have an objection to the

12     admissibility of the statement.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Especially in this case, many parts of this OTP

14     statement were used and put to the witness during the testimony of

15     yesterday.  This document will be received as an exhibit.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Defence documents 1D00243 will become Defence

17     Exhibit D00125.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  And now, Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  It is my

20     duty to inform the Trial Chamber about the renewed attempt to establish

21     these checks over me every half-hour in the cell.  Last night when we

22     completed the trial, when we adjourned, since I was waiting for

23     transportation in the cell for half an hour, I dozed off and I got into

24     the vehicle and usually the guards help me because the seats are high up

25     and I am a short man, and my hands are tied.  I usually sleep during that

Page 6478

 1     vehicle.  However, this new driver, or rather co-driver, said this to the

 2     guards, the doctor who usually doesn't wait for us there, ran up to me

 3     immediately to take my blood pressure, et cetera, et cetera, he said,

 4     awe, the blood pressure is not good because it's 160 by 105, and I said

 5     if I can fall asleep, if I can doze off, there's no big difference

 6     involved.  It's 40 millimetres, so why not?  It's a good blood pressure.

 7     There's no threat involved.  And he said I'm going to be checking on you.

 8     And I said, I have the agreement of the Trial Chamber for you not to

 9     check me and if you are insisting, I mean, I'm still telling you would

10     you please let me sleep because I cannot sleep because of your checks.

11             This disturbs me because I sleep only four hours.  I usually go

12     to bed around 11.00 and I get up at 0400 hours.  It's easier for me that

13     way.  I use the morning hours because I'm not being disturbed by anyone.

14     And he said then I'm going to check on you until 11.00, that's what he

15     did.  However, today he came and he said that I should sign a document

16     with which he would like to familiarise you with my health condition.  So

17     on the basis of what I told you about now, he said that he wanted to

18     submit a report to you.  Then I realised that it was not exactly well

19     intentioned and that it's only purported concern for my health.

20             This is yet another attempt to introduce these measures because

21     he said if circumstances change, we have the right to do that.  Why did

22     he not change the circumstance of my hands being tied?  Many prisoners do

23     not have their hands tied when they go to trial.  I have a 70 per cent

24     disability.  I walk the way I always walked though.  I would like to say

25     that it would not be right to impose such measures upon me because the

Page 6479

 1     work that we do here is very intensive so I have to use only four or five

 2     hours for sleep and I have to work all the rest of the time because we

 3     work four days a week.  Please bear that in mind when you communicate

 4     with the doctors.  Please make sure that they do not disturb me yet again

 5     with these regular checks.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, thank you very much for this

 7     information.  Can you tell the Chamber what happened after 11.00

 8     yesterday evening?  Were you checked every half an hour again during

 9     night-time or was it just a proposal?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that they were not checking

11     after that because I would have felt it.  At 4.00 when I got up, I get up

12     at 4.00 sharp, I did not notice any checks and I did not hear anything.

13     I hear everything because there are no sounds to be heard during the

14     night, so I would hear the door.  It's certain that they did not check on

15     me after 11.00.  They saw that I turned off the light because I said I'm

16     going to get up early at 4.00 in the morning because I'm going to work,

17     and you can do whatever you want until I go to bed at 11.00 because I

18     cannot forbid them to do that.  What can I say?  I'm telling you about

19     this because perhaps the doctor's intentions were good but if he does

20     have a good intention then he should free me of other things rather than

21     have some other kind of check imposed on me because I'm not willing to

22     take any other kind of medication.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir, you know the

24     clear position of the Chamber which was supported by the Prosecution, and

25     I think is it very helpful that you let us know if anything like that

Page 6480

 1     happens and we can then take it into account.  But at the moment I think

 2     we wait, if there will be a report by the Registry, by the medical doctor

 3     of the UNDU, then we have to deal with that and you can be sure that this

 4     will be dealt with by the contributions of both parties.  Thank you very

 5     much again.

 6             I think we have to go into private session to enable the witness

 7     to come into the courtroom.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Just one clarification on the record, the Defence

 9     Exhibit D00125 should be under seal.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please bear with us for a moment, sir.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Would you please read aloud

20     the affirmation on the card which is shown to you now.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  Yes.  I solemnly

22     declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

23     truth.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

25             The Prosecutor, Mr. Vanderpuye, has some questions for you.

Page 6481

 1     Mr. Vanderpuye.

 2                           WITNESS:  PW-063

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Again good afternoon.

 5     Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon everyone.

 6                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 7        Q.   And good afternoon to you, witness.  We met a little bit earlier

 8     today.  Yesterday, as you know, my name is Kweku Vanderpuye and on behalf

 9     of the Prosecution I'm going to put just a few questions to you with

10     respect to your evidence in this case.  First I'd like to show you 65 ter

11     6762, please.

12             Witness, if you could just take a look at the screen in front of

13     you, and can you confirm that you are the person that is named in this

14     document.  Don't read it out loud, though.

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  If we can just go into private

17     session for a moment, please.  I'd like to tender this document into

18     evidence.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received and after that we go into

20     private session.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Rule 65 ter 06762 will become Prosecution

22     Exhibit P01195.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Under seal.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  The document will be kept under seal.

25                           [Private session]

Page 6482











11 Pages 6482-6483 redacted. Private session.















Page 6484

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The witness was present in Bratunac throughout

 4     the events surrounding the fall of the Srebrenica enclave.  On 9 July,

 5     1995 at around noon, the witness visited the 3rd Battalion logistics base

 6     located in Pribicevac accompanied by the Bratunac Brigade's assistant

 7     commander for logistics, Dragoslav Trisic.  There the witness encountered

 8     the assistant commander for religious, moral, and legal affairs of the

 9     VRS Main Staff, General Milan Gvero.  General Radislav Krstic, then the

10     Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps, was also present that afternoon and

11     discussed the operation of -- discussed the operation of the separate --

12     operation to separate the Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves with

13     General Gvero.  Also present was whom the witness referred to as

14     Colonel Vukota, presumably Colonel Vukota Vukovic, commander of the

15     Skelani Brigade.

16             On 11 July, 1995, the witness returned to the 3rd Battalion

17     logistics base.  On this occasion he briefly encountered General Ratko

18     Mladic, later near the base's command post, he met among others,

19     Miroslav Deronjic, president of the Municipal Board of the SDS, and

20     Miodrag Josipovic, the Bratunac chief of police.  That evening, the

21     witness received a call from Deronjic who told him to attend a meeting at

22     the Bratunac Brigade command at 8.00 am on the following morning,

23     12th July.  That morning the witness went to the Bratunac Brigade

24     command, he was the first to arrive and recalled that General Mladic

25     asked him what he thought should be done with the Muslims in Srebrenica.

Page 6485

 1             The witness testified that knowing that in 1992, the Muslims had

 2     gone to Tuzla and Kladanj, he said to General Mladic, "We should see what

 3     these people wanted at the moment."  Mladic put the same question to Aco

 4     Tesic, head of the secretariat for national Defence, who later arrived,

 5     as well as to Ljubisav Simic, president of Bratunac municipality, when he

 6     arrived.  The meeting lasted approximately 30 minutes and upon its

 7     conclusion, General Mladic asked the witness and Simic to attend the

 8     meeting at the Hotel Fontana at 10.00 a.m.

 9             The witness recalled that present at the meeting were

10     General Mladic, General Krstic, the UNPROFOR commander and his deputy,

11     Ibro Nuhanovic, whom the witness knew well, Nesib Mandzic,

12     Camila Purkovic, Ljubisav Simic, Dragomir Vasic, and Miroslav Deronjic.

13     He testified that it was his understanding that the Muslim population had

14     decided to leave the region.

15             Following the meeting, General Mladic asked the witness and Simic

16     were providing for the population gathered in Potocari.  The witness

17     returned to his offices to co-ordinate the effort.  He testified that he

18     secured two water cisterns, contacted a bakery to send its produce to

19     Potocari, and tried to secure other supplies from Zvornik.  Efforts were

20     made -- also made to obtain supplies from Serbian municipalities,

21     including Ljubovija.

22             On 12 July, the witness was present in Potocari for about two

23     hours, during which he stated he helped to distribute bread, biscuits,

24     and water.  Among the refugees, the witness recognised several people

25     whom he knew.  He was able to assist two or three of them.  The witness

Page 6486

 1     claimed that he did not see any Muslim men being separated from their

 2     family, but noted that the population "all wanted to get on the buses out

 3     of turn just so they he could leave Potocari as soon as possible."

 4             The witness left Potocari and returned to Bratunac, returning to

 5     his office later that afternoon.  At around 8.00 p.m. the director of the

 6     utilities enterprise, Dragan Mirkovic, visited the witness.  Later at

 7     about 9.00 p.m. the witness noticed three buses parked near the town's

 8     municipal building guarded by civilian police.  Together with Mirkovic

 9     the witness went to observe the situation more closely and eventually

10     noticed three other buses nearby.  Each was filled with Muslim men.  The

11     witness recognised some of the prisoners aboard the bus, one of whom

12     asked him for water.  The witness complied passing out jerrycans of water

13     to prisoners aboard two buses.

14             The witness eventually learned that some 20 to 25 buses had come

15     to Bratunac and was told that the Muslim men were to be exchanged.  That

16     night, the witness ran into Miroslav Deronjic in town.  Discussing the

17     unfolding situation with him, Deronjic told the witness that the

18     situation had been influenced by Rajko Dukic, a powerful politico and

19     director of the bauxite mine in Milici.

20             The witness testified that in addition to the local police

21     guarding bus throughout the town, other security measures were taken.

22     Because most fighting-aged men in Bratunac were manning the lines, older

23     town residents and younger people were quickly rounded up to assist in

24     guarding the prisoners.  At a concern point, either that evening or the

25     following morning, the witness learned that Muslim men had also been

Page 6487

 1     detained at the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac.

 2             On 13 July, the witness went to see Dragoslav Trisic, who told

 3     the witness that Resid Sinanovic, the former chief of police in Bratunac,

 4     had been captured.  The witness learned that Sinanovic was in the custody

 5     of Zlatan Celanovic, who was a Legal Officer in the Bratunac Brigade and

 6     conducted investigations.  The witness contacted Celanovic and arranged

 7     to see Sinanovic.  He later met with Sinanovic in Celanovic's office for

 8     about an hour.  The witness learned that Sinanovic was to be taken to the

 9     Vuk Karadzic school.

10             At about 7.00 a.m. on 14 July, the witness learned about mass

11     killings at the Kravica warehouse which occurred in the afternoon of 13

12     July, he learned this from Jovan Nikolic and Dragan Nikolic, both

13     directors of the co-operative in Kravica.  Later that morning at about

14     9.30 a.m. the witness was called to the SDS party offices.  When he

15     arrived he met a VRS officer in uniform who introduced himself as Beara.

16     After exchange of pleasantries, Beara invited the witness to a

17     neighbouring office to talk to two other VRS officers.  The witness

18     recalled only that these officers were a lieutenant-colonel and colonel

19     respectively.

20             The two officers questioned the witness about the obtaining

21     construction equipment, and the witness told them about a SKIP, which is

22     a digging machine located a utilities company, and an ULT, U-L-T, which

23     is a loader located at a Brickworks factory.  The witness further

24     contacted the director of the of the Brickworks factory Nedzo Nikolic.

25     Although the officers did not tell the witness what they sought the

Page 6488

 1     equipment for, the witness assumed in the circumstance that the equipment

 2     was needed to bury people.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Your Honours, that concludes my summary of the

 4     witness's testimony and I have a few additional questions for him.

 5     Mr. President, I'd like to show the witness some photographs from P00624

 6     which is the stills book from the trial video.  I'm going to show them to

 7     him in sanction because the book, as you know, contains marked

 8     photographs with attendant identifications, and I'd just like to have the

 9     witness identify the individuals depicted in these photos independently.

10        Q.   All right, we have the first one on the screen now, this is

11     ERN 029-6185 [sic], and it corresponds to page 25 of the stills book.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the number, you left out

13     one part of it.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I am sure I did I am sorry.  It's 0291-6185.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would like the witness to mark the photo so

17     maybe -- he can't mark it?  He cannot mark it.  All right.  Well then

18     we'll just go around and we'll describe it for the record.  Thank you

19     very much.

20        Q.   Witness, do you see the photograph now on the screen in front of

21     you?

22        A.   I do.

23        Q.   Do you recognise anyone in this particular photograph?

24        A.   I do.  Slijvan [phoen] to the right, this I think is the deputy

25     commander of the Dutch Battalion.  Then this woman is Camila Purkovic,

Page 6489

 1     next to her is Ibro Nuhanovic, and next to him Nesib Mandzic.

 2        Q.   What I'd like you to do just so that we can make it very clear

 3     for record, is you can describe an article of clothing or some

 4     distinctive feature of the person that you are identifying so that we can

 5     see very clearly from the written transcript who it is you are describing

 6     in these photos.  So the Dutch -- the deputy commander of the Dutch

 7     Battalion you've indicated, can you describe what he's wearing in this

 8     photograph?

 9        A.   He has a T-shirt and he is wearing glasses.  On his left-hand

10     side is Camila Purkovic in a black sweater and she is the only female

11     there.  On her left is Ibro Nuhanovic, in a light coloured shirt.  I

12     think it's either short sleeves or his sleeves are rolled up.  On

13     Nuhanovic's left side is Nesib Nuhanovic [as interpreted].  He is wearing

14     something like a black sweater.

15        Q.   I think for the record we have an indication that you said the

16     name Nesib Nuhanovic, previously you mentioned Nesib Mandzic.  Is that

17     who you've referred to again?

18        A.   Ibro is Nuhanovic.  And Nesib is Mandzic.

19        Q.   Right.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I clarify something.  At the beginning in

21     page 16, line 22 you started with the words to the right, what do you

22     mean by "to the right"?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From left to right, starting from

24     the left and going right.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That clarifies the situation.  Thank you very

Page 6490

 1     much.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   All right.  If I can show you the next photograph, which is ERN

 4     291-6186 [sic].

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we can just go into private session for a

 6     moment, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Your Honour, I understand this corresponds to

 9     e-court page 39.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6491

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honour.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 6        Q.   Proceeding with this photograph, can you tell us who the officer

 7     is to the far right of the photograph?

 8        A.   General Mladic.

 9        Q.   And can you tell us from this photograph, you can only see really

10     the back of the hair or the back of the head, I should say, of this

11     person, who that person is seated next to General Mladic on his left?

12        A.   I think that that is Petar, the interpreter.

13        Q.   All right.  I'd like to show you another photograph.  This should

14     correspond to page 40 of the -- in e-court of P624.  And its ERN is

15     0291-6187.  Do you recognise anybody depicted in this photograph,

16     witness?

17        A.   The first on the right is Dragomir Masic the chief of the public

18     security centre in Zvornik, he is wearing a camouflage uniform.  Next to

19     him is Miroslav Deronjic, in a white shirt, and a black jacket.  Next to

20     Miroslav Deronjic is Colonel Popovic, I believe.  He is drinking, he is

21     drinking water from a glass.  And then the two officers on the right side

22     of Colonel Popovic, I don't know them.  They are wearing uniforms, that's

23     why I'm saying they are officers.  I assume they are, but I don't know

24     their names.

25        Q.   The last name of the first person you identified isn't clear in

Page 6492

 1     the transcript, can you please repeat the last name of the first

 2     individual you?

 3        A.   Vasic.  Vasic.

 4        Q.   And you mentioned Colonel Popovic.  Did you know Colonel Popovic

 5     at the time?

 6        A.   No, I didn't.  But I believe that I recognise his face.

 7        Q.   All right.  And -- all right.  I think we are clear.  Thank you

 8     very much.  I think we are done with these photographs and there are just

 9     a couple of questions I'd like to ask you.

10             Earlier just a few moments ago while I was reading a summary, I

11     mentioned the name Rajko Dukic.  His name was mentioned in a conversation

12     with Miroslav Deronjic on 12 July, 1995.  Can you tell us, first, who

13     Rajko Dukic was at the time.

14        A.   Rajko Dukic was a man who hailed from Milici.  That's where he

15     was born.  He was the director of the bauxite mine in Milici.

16        Q.   And as concerns a conversation with Miroslav Deronjic concerning

17     Rajko Dukic, can you tell us generally what that conversation was about?

18        A.   On the 12th in the evening, I saw Miroslav Deronjic in town on

19     the street.  I asked him, "What is this, Deronjic?  How come these buses

20     with Muslims are in Bratunac?"  And Miroslav answered, and I will quote

21     him, "Rajko Dukic has arranged that.  He has planted that upon us."

22        Q.   What did you understand Mr. Deronjic to mean by that?

23        A.   What he meant was that Rajko had done that in order to avoid

24     crowds and such large presence of Muslims in Milici.  He used his

25     authority to turn the buses and the whole transport towards Bratunac.

Page 6493

 1     That's what Deronjic meant.  And based on what he said and how he saw the

 2     situation, I also realised that that must have been the reason why the

 3     buses had arrived in Bratunac.

 4        Q.   And was Rajko Dukic at the time a politically influential person?

 5        A.   Yes.  He was the highest authority in the Birac region.  In 1992

 6     he was the president of the Serbian Democratic Party, I think, in Bosnia

 7     and later on in Republika Srpska.  And he was also as I've already stated

 8     the highest authority in the Birac region.  He was a well known

 9     businessman and he had a lot of influence, a very big say in the region.

10        Q.   I'd like to ask you about your meeting with Colonel Beara on the

11     14th of July, 1995 in the morning.  First, can you tell us how long you

12     met with him?

13        A.   My meeting with Colonel Beara was only about 10 minutes long.

14     That's how long I stayed in the office where we met.

15        Q.   Had you seen him in Bratunac prior to that meeting?

16        A.   No.  I didn't know Colonel Beara.  That was the first time I met

17     him in person.  I had heard about him earlier, but I had not had an

18     occasion to meet him.  That was my first meeting with him.

19        Q.   And having heard about him prior to meeting him, what did you

20     know about him?

21        A.   I knew that he was a colonel by rank and that he was the chief of

22     security in Main Staff.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I thank you very much, witness, I have no

24     further questions for you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Vanderpuye.

Page 6494

 1             Mr. Tolimir, your cross-examination, please.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

 4        Q.   I would like to say good afternoon to the witness, and may these

 5     proceedings end in keeping with God's will and not necessarily the way I

 6     want them to finish.

 7             I'm first going to ask you based on what Mr. Vanderpuye asked you

 8     and what you stated in your statement --

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you referring to the Popovic

19     transcript?  You didn't mention that.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

21     having corrected me and, yes, I did mean the Popovic case transcript.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is P866 and P867 respectively.

23     Mr. Vanderpuye.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We are in open

25     session.  Can we go into private session for a moment, please.

Page 6495

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6496

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I do not object to this

 6     redaction.  This is in keeping with protective measures.  I don't want to

 7     create any problems for the witness.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   I can't ask him questions without asking him to give me

10     time-frame, I can only ask him then -- I can only ask him what duties he

11     discharged in 1994 and 1995.  Maybe he can tell us spontaneously bearing

12     in mind his protective measures.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's more helpful for everybody that we

14     move into private session and then the witness can provide you with

15     details.  We go into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6497

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 6498

 1        Q.   Witness, I am restricted in the scope of questions I can put to

 2     you with regard to your position and duties.  Why don't you tell the

 3     Trial Chamber yourself whether you encountered any problems with regard

 4     to the supply of food and providing food to the population procurement in

 5     the -- in your capacity as you performed your duties?

 6        A.   Of course we had problems, but our problems were of financial

 7     nature.  There was no money, there was not enough money and you needed

 8     money for everything.  Very few companies worked.  We felt an acute

 9     shortage of money and that was our major logistical problem.  I don't

10     know whether you had that in mind.

11        Q.   Yes, that's what I had in mind.  Did you have any problem with

12     the shortage of fuel or electricity and other resources pertaining to

13     that sector?

14        A.   To a great fortune we did not have any problems with electricity,

15     owing to the fact that we are close to Serbia.  We got our electricity

16     supplies from Serbia.  That meant that Bratunac had electric energy

17     throughout the war without any interruptions.  We had problems with fuel,

18     with oil, and oil derivatives, petrol.  We had some problems with

19     utilities, with water, for example, only for a couple of months when the

20     well had fallen into the Muslim hands and that's where Bratunac gets its

21     water-supply and that was only for two months and that's when we are

22     talking about water.

23        Q.   Thank you.  How did you get water at the time?  Did you request

24     from the Muslims to allow you to get your water-supply?

25        A.   We had an old waterworks in town that had not functioned for

Page 6499

 1     awhile so we brought it into function but that wasn't enough.  People

 2     used water-pumps and they also got water from streams, brooks, and from

 3     the Drina River depending on how far they lived from the water.  We never

 4     asked the Muslims anything nor did they ever allow us to use the new

 5     waterworks, the new well.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us whether you were familiar with

 7     the situation in the enclave of Srebrenica from 1993 when Srebrenica had

 8     become a demilitarised zone until the year 1995 while the population was

 9     still there, and I particularly mean the humanitarian situation?

10        A.   Yes, I knew the situation partially.  I knew that the

11     humanitarian situation over there was quite critical.  The UNHCR convoys

12     that supplied Srebrenica with certain necessities such as food and other

13     such things did pass through Bratunac, but I know that the situation was

14     quite difficult over there.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us what the military situation was like in that

16     enclave after the demilitarisation?  Do you have any information about

17     that?  Thank you.

18        A.   Well, the military situation hadn't changed a great deal after a

19     demilitarisation.  The Muslims continued to attack our lines, our

20     villages, so what happened very often were incursions in these villages

21     with very tragic consequences.  Practically the demilitarisation wasn't

22     felt at all.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber of a particular case

24     that you are aware of because that was the territory of your municipality

25     in respect of these tragic situations that you had just referred to at

Page 6500

 1     the time?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Well, we had this tragic situation in Bjelovac when during one

 3     day 109 persons were killed.  Out of them, 90 per cent were civilians.

 4     In the month of January on Christmas day in Kravica, 60 persons were

 5     killed.  There was another situation in Bjelovac when 30-something people

 6     were killed, then in Pakovici [as interpreted] 25, in the territory of

 7     Srebrenica those were the most serious mass killings that took place.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   I do apologise because I will have to go back to this for the

11     transcript.  Can you tell us when these 109 persons were killed in

12     Bjelovac, 90 per cent of who were civilians?  In which period this

13     happened?

14        A.   I think it was December 1992.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And when did this happen in Kravica when 60 civilians

16     were killed?

17        A.   January 1993.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And when were these other 30 persons killed in

19     Bjelovac again?

20        A.   That was in 1992, before the 109.

21        Q.   What about Fakovici, those 25?  Are you referring to all the --

22     to all the casualties in the village of Ratkovici or are you just

23     referring to the hamlet of Fakovici?

24        A.   Only Fakovici.

25        Q.   Can you tell us when this happened?

Page 6501

 1        A.   I think it was the beginning of 1993.

 2        Q.   You mentioned Kravica now and you also speak of Kravica in your

 3     statement, on page 14, lines 18 through 25 in Serbian and in English it

 4     is also page 14, lines 10 through 19 of the transcript.  That is when you

 5     had this conversation with Jean-Rene Ruez an investigator.  So I'm going

 6     to quote that, P868, that is the exhibit number.  Thank you, Aleksandar.

 7     So that is the exhibit number.  I'm going to read it out so that --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, this statement is under seal.  If

 9     you want to read out a portion of that, we have to go into private

10     session.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  In that case, I'm not

12     going to read it out, I'm just going to ask the witness a question.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This shouldn't be broadcast.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You said --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not going to ask

17     anything that is going to reveal the witness's identity.  I'm asking

18     about what had happened.  I think --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You said that the village of Kravica had been destroyed and

22     torched and you mentioned how many persons were killed and so on, I'm not

23     going to quote your statement now.  This is what my question would be:

24     Are you referring to the attack that took place on the 6th of January,

25     1993?  Thank you.

Page 6502

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us who carried out this attack against

 3     the village of Kravica?  Which forces did that?  Could you say who they

 4     belonged to?  Thank you.

 5        A.   This was done by the Muslim forces under the command of

 6     Naser Oric from Srebrenica.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Was the village totally destroyed and was it never

 8     used for living until the end of the war?  Was that the consequence of

 9     that?

10        A.   It was a catastrophe, it had been destroyed, torched.

11        Q.   Can you describe it from your point of view?  What it was that

12     happened in Kravica, without revealing your own identity?  Thank you.

13        A.   I don't know how much I can describe because I was not in Kravica

14     then but I do know that the Muslim forces at day break on the 6th of

15     January, 1993, attacked Kravica with major forces and that they did what

16     they did, namely that they killed around 60 people, that they destroyed

17     and burned the village down.  That happened on Christmas day, the

18     greatest holiday of the Serbs.  They were probably counting on that, when

19     people are less vigilant, when they are celebrating or trying to

20     celebrate, the Muslims did what they did.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what the

22     importance is amongst the Serbs of a patron saints day and does one do

23     anything on that day?  And we are talking about Christmas there actually,

24     sorry, it was Christmas.

25        A.   I already said that Christmas is the greatest Serb holiday when

Page 6503

 1     people do not work, when they only celebrate Christmas.  That would be it

 2     briefly.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether on the territory of the

 4     municipality where you were, was it the practice of Muslims to burn every

 5     hamlet and village that they entered and to kill the population

 6     regardless of whether they were civilians or not?

 7        A.   All Serb villages in the territory of the Bratunac municipality

 8     were destroyed and torched.  All of them.  It was only the town that

 9     remained whereas all the villages were destroyed except for this very

10     small area down by the Drina where the Muslims could not -- that the

11     Muslims could not get to because they would have to go through town in

12     order to reach that area, but all the other Serb villages were torched

13     and destroyed.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us where the remaining surviving

15     population went and stayed because the villages had been burned down?

16     Thank you.

17        A.   Since the Serb villages in the territory of the municipality of

18     Srebrenica were burned down 100 per cent, all the Serb population from

19     Srebrenica was in Bratunac and all the Serb population from the

20     municipality of Bratunac from the burned down villages were staying in

21     the town of Bratunac.  So the town which before the war had a population

22     of about 7.000 must have had about 12.000 at that point.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Will you tell us what the population was before that?

24     You've just referred to 12.000, can you give us more information so that

25     we can compare?

Page 6504

 1        A.   The population before the war was 7.000.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you include the Muslim and the Serb population in

 3     this pre-war figure?

 4        A.   Yes.  I forgot to say that.  That was both the Muslim and the

 5     Serb population.  And in town the population was half-half roughly, so

 6     perhaps there were about 3.500 Serbs in town and 3.500 Muslims who had

 7     left Bratunac.

 8        Q.   So the number of refugees, if I can put it that way, that had

 9     arrived from the areas that were destroyed and burned down by the Muslims

10     in the Bratunac and Srebrenica municipalities had grown to 12.000, did I

11     understand that correctly?

12        A.   Approximately.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether that was the reason why

14     General Mladic in respect of the persons who were helping with the

15     evacuation from Potocari -- I mean what the Prosecutor asked you here in

16     line 14 -- no, no, not line 14.  I'm going to find it now.  The

17     Prosecutor asked you during that summary, he asked you whether Mladic

18     asked you what you thought should be done with these Muslims and he asked

19     other interlocutors that.  Was that the reason, did he want to hear the

20     reaction of those who were victims of the Muslims or why do you think he

21     put that question?  Thank you.

22        A.   I cannot say why the general had asked that.  Whether he wanted

23     to have several opinions on that.  I mean, I don't understand why he

24     asked.  Maybe that what you stated just now was the reason, but I really

25     wouldn't want to guess what the general meant by that and why he asked

Page 6505

 1     that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  That's what the Prosecutor asked you, today's

 3     transcript, page 12, line 23, and then he says, Mladic asked you what you

 4     thought should be done with the Muslims, if I understood that correctly.

 5     My question on that basis is as follows:  This is my question to you, did

 6     General Mladic treat the Muslim population that had come to Potocari the

 7     way you had suggested?  Let me not repeat everything that you had

 8     suggested.

 9        A.   I think that this agreement was there at the Fontana Hotel.  That

10     that was the conclusion.  And that in a way the general acted the way we

11     had suggested, namely that the Muslims should be asked what it was that

12     they wanted and if they wished to leave, that they should be enabled to

13     do so.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   I'm going to quote what it was that you said, I'll be careful not

17     to reveal your identity.  "I knew that in 1992 they left for Tuzla.  I

18     said that we should see what it was that these people wished."  Was that

19     actually done without revealing your identity yet again?

20        A.   Well, knowing that in 1992 when they were leaving the area of

21     Bratunac they mostly went in the direction of Tuzla and in the direction

22     of Kladanj our suggestion was, the suggestion of the few of us who were

23     there around the general, was as it was for that reason, that if the

24     Muslims wanted that, that they should be enabled to do so, if that is

25     their wish.  We did not know then what the course would be.

Page 6506

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Before we move on to the discussion of the evacuation

 2     and the wishes of the Muslims, what they did wish and what they did not

 3     wish, let us try to get an answer to the following question:  On page 20

 4     of today's transcript, line 16 and 21 -- page 21 and one onwards, you

 5     said Rajko Dukic took care of this, and you meant the buses for Bratunac.

 6     This is what my question would be:  Did I understand you correctly when

 7     you were providing an answer to the Prosecutor a few moments ago because

 8     that was the question that he had put to you?

 9        A.   Yes, that was his answer to my question.

10        Q.   Thank you.  My question for you is, should all the refugees from

11     Potocari then go to Milici if the buses were in Milici?  Thank you.

12        A.   I really don't understand this question, General.

13        Q.   It was said here that had he put the buses there.  Was it logical

14     for the buses to come to the closest possible location, to the location

15     where those who had requested evacuation were?  Thank you.

16        A.   I don't see why these buses were supposed to come to Bratunac,

17     because there was no such agreement.  The agreement was that buses should

18     leave from Potocari, pass through Bratunac, and go in the direction of

19     Tuzla or the direction of Kladanj without staying in Bratunac at all.

20        Q.   Thank you.  So you meant the buses after they left Potocari?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23        A.   At that moment it wasn't clear to us where these buses had come

24     from and why they were in Bratunac, why they entered Bratunac and why

25     they were there.

Page 6507

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Does the road from Potocari lead through Bratunac or

 2     could they have taken a different road, a direct one or in a round-about

 3     way?  Thank you.  I mean to the territory that was under the control of

 4     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5        A.   There was another road too that was up there via Jadar and

 6     Milici, but I think that that road is worse and I think that it wasn't

 7     safe at the time anyway.  That is why the road via Bratunac was taken.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Is it logical then that vehicles went via Bratunac

 9     and Rajko Dukic could not have influenced that because I'm not that

10     familiar with your relations, I have no reason to defend anyone, you

11     included, you just said what he had said?

12        A.   I think that these buses were not from the Potocari actually.  I

13     think that these buses had come from the direction of Milici.  They had

14     to turn here towards Bratunac and then pass through Kravica or, rather,

15     go towards Srebrenica, I mean Bratunac and Srebrenica from Milici.  They

16     did not take the road towards Tuzla and Kladanj at all, rather they went

17     in the opposite way towards Bratunac and Srebrenica because these buses

18     were not from Potocari.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I know that, but I'm asking you, was it not logical

20     for them to get as close as possible to the people who were being

21     evacuated, and they could not pass from Milici via Zeleni Jadar and so on

22     because it was uncertain as to where the Muslim forces were there and

23     there were minefields there as well and the Muslims most probably did not

24     want to go back.  Thank you.

25        A.   You are not right, General.  From Milici they could take a

Page 6508

 1     different route Tuzla and Kladanj via Vlasenica and via Zvornik.  They

 2     didn't have to come to Bratunac at all.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  But just awhile ago you said that it was much better

 4     to go from Potocari to Bratunac the way they did rather than taking the

 5     route which was not safe via Milici.  Did you say that?

 6        A.   Yes, I did say that.  Conditionally, if they went from Srebrenica

 7     via Jadar, but their buses had come from Milici.  They had not been in

 8     Jadar.  They took the road in the direction of Zvornik and Konjevic Polje

 9     they took a turn towards Bratunac.

10        Q.   Thank you.  We will not waste time on that.  I don't understand

11     it, let alone the Trial Chamber.  In any case there was no safer road, we

12     are talking been an area struck by war activities and there was just one

13     road that could have been controlled by the army and the police, was that

14     the reason why they took that road?

15        A.   I don't think that there was any reason whatsoever for those

16     buses to turn up in Bratunac, from Milici to Bratunac.

17        Q.   Was it logical for the buses to go through the territory of your

18     municipality and for the evacuation of the civilian population to take

19     place via the territory of your municipality, although you had attended

20     this meeting regarding the evacuation?

21        A.   Yes, from Potocari.  Potocari and Bratunac, they are 5 kilometres

22     apart.  And in Bratunac they could turn and they could go towards Kravica

23     and Konjevic Polje, and there they would join the highway leading from

24     Zvornik to Vlasenica, to the left Vlasenica and Kladanj, to the right

25     Zvornik.

Page 6509

 1        Q.   Thank you.  We are not going to go into speculation, we are not

 2     going to say what would have happened if other things had happened.  I'm

 3     just going to talk about the security situation and who could guarantee

 4     their safety.  Were you abreast of the talks that had taken place at the

 5     first and the second meeting before you attended the meeting that was

 6     depicted in the two photos, the meeting that involve the representatives

 7     of Muslims from Srebrenica?  Thank you.

 8        A.   I attended just one meeting at 10.00.  And I realised at that

 9     meeting that there had been a previous meeting and I was not aware of

10     that meeting.  I was not familiar with what had been said at that

11     meeting.  I realised that at the meeting that I attended, and I also

12     realised that the Muslims, the delegation were supposed to state at that

13     meeting what they wanted, or rather, only Mandzic, the president of the

14     municipality attended the first meeting; whereas, the second meeting was

15     attended by a larger delegation involving Camila and Nuhanovic, and then

16     I realised that there had been a previous meeting and that that second

17     meeting they are supposed to say what the decision was, or, rather, what

18     the decision was that was taken up there in Srebrenica.  Was I clear,

19     General?

20        Q.   Thank you.  You were clear.  On page 37, line 7, you said that

21     Mandzic attended the meeting alone and you said that he was the president

22     of the municipality.  Was he the president of the municipality at the

23     time or did he introduce himself to you as a representative of the

24     municipality or some such thing?

25        A.   Well, I thought that he was the president of the municipality.

Page 6510

 1     That's what I understood.  Not that that's -- that that's what I

 2     understood, he was the president of the municipality.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And was he the main negotiator on behalf of the

 4     Muslim delegation in his capacity as the president of the municipality?

 5        A.   At the meeting itself I believe that Camila spoke much more than

 6     he did.  He was outspoken by her.  Now, in terms of hierarchy, he was in

 7     a higher position, but I would say that all three of them spoke, but

 8     Camila was the loudest.  She said the most.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us now since you have just said what you

10     did, can you then tell us whether the meeting started by General Mladic

11     or General Karremans briefed you about the previous meeting or was the

12     outset more spontaneous, did they start right into the heart of the

13     matter because that's what had been agreed?

14        A.   Nobody briefed us about the previous meeting.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think we must have our first break

17     now, but before we break, I would like to, for the record, to note the

18     following:  On page 25 of today's transcript, line 21, you said, and I

19     quote:

20             "I'm restricted in the scope of questions I can put to you with

21     regard to your position and duties."

22             I just want to let you know this is not true.  You are not

23     restricted at all, but some questions should be put in private session if

24     they are -- could reveal the identity of the witness.  Others in open

25     session, but you are not restricted at all.  I just wanted to clarify

Page 6511

 1     that.  We adjourn now and resume quarter past 4.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 5             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a small

 6     correction for the transcript.  On page 29, line 1, it says P86 and it

 7     should be P868.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  You are perfectly right.  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on your cross-examination.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Sir, we left it off with me asking you whether General Mladic or

13     somebody else debriefed you about the previous meeting, or, rather, the

14     two previous meetings and what they discussed with Mandzic and you said

15     no.  Let's continue talking about that third meeting.  How did the

16     meeting start?  Who were the speakers?  What did they say?  How did

17     people behave?  What were your impressions?

18        A.   General Mladic was the first speaker.  He called the meeting to

19     order and he was the one chairing the meeting.  He spoke -- well, you

20     know, it was a long time ago.  Can you give me some pointers perhaps?

21        Q.   Thank you.  Let me just jog your memory.  In the statement that

22     you provided, the first statement that you provided, which is P867, P867,

23     P867, my legal assistant is -- does not hear me.  P867.  But I don't want

24     the Court to produce it, I'm just going to remind you with a few words

25     which will not disclose your identity.

Page 6512

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is the public redacted version so that

 2     there's no problem with using this.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

 4     you.  Can we look at P868, pages 4 to 17.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   And let me jog the witness's memory by quoting from lines 7, 8,

 7     9, 10 and 11 and then he can go on talking and describing things in his

 8     own words.  This what you stated and I quote you:

 9             "The central issue was the --"

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Stop, stop, stop.  You said pages 4 to 17, what

11     does that mean?  Which page do you want to have displayed on the screen?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 4, the mark is 4 to 17 and I

13     read the whole number.  Can we please see page 4.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just for the record, this is a document under

15     seal.  It will not be broadcast outside the courtroom.  Please carry on,

16     Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   To remind you, you said:

20             "The central and the main subject of the meeting was discussions

21     with the Muslims about their wishes.  General Mladic was presiding over

22     the meeting and the Dutch commander too, and General Mladic asked those

23     Muslims what they wished -- whether they wished to stay in the area and

24     if so, where they wanted to go.  He suggested that if they wished to

25     remain in the area, he would guarantee full freedom for them."  That was

Page 6513

 1     line 12.

 2             Does this refresh your memory about the beginning of the meeting

 3     which followed immediately the events in question?  I wanted to ask you

 4     this specifically:  Did the general ask the Muslims what they wanted or

 5     did someone else ask them that question at the beginning of the meeting

 6     and didn't they state at the beginning of the meeting what they wanted?

 7        A.   It was only then that I realised that there had been another

 8     meeting prior to this one.  I don't know when it was held, whether it was

 9     in the morning of that day or the evening before.  I couldn't conclude

10     that.  In any case, I concluded that there had been a meeting at which it

11     was told -- Nesib was told to see what the Muslims there wanted, and when

12     the delegation comprising the three of them arrived, they had to say what

13     the answer received by the Muslims was.  That's why General Mladic asked

14     them whether they wanted to stay or to go.

15             If they wanted to stay, the general would guarantee them full

16     freedom of movement and those who were found to have participated in

17     certain crimes, that those people would eventually be prosecuted.  I see

18     that this is the transcript of my interview.

19        Q.   Yes.  You spoke to Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez.  You mentioned that at the

20     meeting the only issue was what the Muslims wanted.  Can you tell the

21     Chamber who expressed the wishes of the Muslim side at the meeting?  What

22     was that person's name?

23        A.   Out of the three?  All three stated they wished to leave.  They

24     said only let us go.  That was the wish of the people who came from

25     Srebrenica to Potocari.  Their sole wish was to leave the area.  On

Page 6514

 1     several occasions, the general repeated that there was no need for them

 2     to leave, that they wouldn't be forced to, and that if they so wished,

 3     they were free to stay, to enjoy all freedom enjoyed by other residents

 4     of the municipalities of Bratunac and Srebrenica.  However, they were

 5     quite decisive in saying that they only wanted to leave and nothing else.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did I understand you correctly that you said that no

 7     Muslims -- well, let me put it this way, did any of the Muslims present

 8     ask the general whether anyone was allowed to stay, in particular?

 9        A.   No.  Even Camila Purkovic asked the general, because she had two

10     daughters, to assist them in leaving in the first part of the transport,

11     whereas she wished to stay until the end.  It's not in the transcript, I

12     believe, but he said that if she wished so, he was willing to provide

13     accommodation for his [as interpreted] daughters in the hotel and that

14     they could leave together with her later on, but she thanked him for it

15     and she said that she wanted her daughters to leave first.  This was just

16     a small digression which I omitted to mention previously.

17        Q.   Now that you mention it, was it made possible for her daughters

18     to leave as she had requested?

19        A.   I think so.  I have no information about what they did.  That

20     delegation did not await us in Potocari as had been agreed.  It was

21     agreed that they would wait for us in Potocari, but we'll probably get to

22     that when we discuss the humanitarian issues.

23        Q.   Now that you mention it, it doesn't matter when I'll get to that,

24     but you can freely tell us what the arrangement was?

25        A.   When we realised that the Muslims wished to leave the area,

Page 6515

 1     general said the new [as interpreted] from the municipality should strive

 2     to provide for the population in terms of their humanitarian needs.  We

 3     understood it to be our only task at the time which we attempted to

 4     pursue as best we could.  They were supposed to wait -- the delegation to

 5     wait for us there to engage in these humanitarian issues with us together

 6     so that they would be there to distribute the aid provided to the

 7     population.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   However, they did not meet us there, that is why I don't know

10     whether Camila's daughters had left.  In any case they are safe and sound

11     and I'm sure they left the area.

12        Q.   Do you have any knowledge of the whereabouts of the Muslim

13     delegation that was supposed to wait for you in Potocari at the moment

14     you arrived with the humanitarian aid such as food and drinks?

15        A.   When we arrived in Potocari, they were nowhere to be found.  We

16     had no information of their whereabouts.  After awhile, I learned where

17     they were, but they did not wait for us then.  The humanitarian aid that

18     we brought with us had to be distributed by ourselves and it wasn't

19     organised well.  There was no order or plan.  There was a large crowd,

20     people wanted to get water and bread as well as juice and whatever we had

21     for them.

22        Q.   Before I ask you who distributed it, can you tell us who urgently

23     required that the humanitarian situation be resolved, was that initiated

24     by the Muslims or by UNPROFOR representatives or the representatives of

25     the VRS?

Page 6516

 1        A.   The general demanded it personally.  He said you from the

 2     municipality should work on that.  To the extent of your ability, assist

 3     the population up there with food, water, medication.  It was an

 4     extremely hot day and large crowds of people, I believe there were some

 5     20.000 of them.

 6        Q.   For the record, can you tell us whether you understood it to be

 7     your task when you say in the statement "I received the task of"?

 8        A.   Yes, we understood it as such and that's how we implemented it,

 9     even the Municipal Assembly speaker Mr. Simic contacted the UNHCR which

10     later also took part in providing assistance.

11        Q.   Thank you.  On page 5 of this document, and you are free to

12     refresh your memory, in lines 6 and 7 you say, I'll read it out for your

13     sake, you say:

14             "We sent it there to Potocari in addition to some juice and water

15     and that lasted as long as the transportation means, the vehicles

16     arrived."

17             My question is this:  Under whose military control was Potocari

18     at that point in time?  Who had control of the situation in Potocari?

19        A.   In Potocari there were the soldiers of the DutchBat as well as

20     the VRS and the police.  There were all sorts of armies around there.

21        Q.   Were all those present tasked with providing humanitarian

22     assistance and to aid the evacuation in keeping with the arrangement that

23     had been reached with the Muslims, or were they there for a different

24     reason?

25        A.   No, the humanitarian part was only tackled by myself and

Page 6517

 1     President Simic as well as those who brought the supplies.  There was a

 2     water tank truck, there was a driver and a co-driver, and they

 3     distributed the water.  There was a bakery lorry with bread, also with

 4     two people who distributed bread.  The same goes for juice.  The three

 5     from Srebrenica, however, did not make good on their promise because they

 6     were supposed to assist in the distribution of the humanitarian aid,

 7     therefore, that distribution process went on in a rather chaotic way.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   As for the soldiers, they were there as well as UNPROFOR

10     soldiers.  I believe they all had weapons and uniforms in DutchBat and

11     they created a buffer area, a corridor between the mass of people and the

12     road.  They were trying to prevent the people from getting on to the

13     road.  They spread along the road to keep the people back.

14        Q.   Does that mean that there was no contact between those who

15     arrived there and the civilian population controlled by UNPROFOR?

16        A.   The soldiers of UNPROFOR created that zone and along the road

17     there were soldiers of the VRS as well as the police.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did any of those present exhibit or display

19     aggressive behaviour towards the Muslims or did they mistreat them that

20     you knew of?

21        A.   I didn't see anything of that kind.  I don't think there was

22     anything like that.  I did notice that there was a lot of chaos but no

23     one was mistreating the population.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any journalists present?  Were they taping

25     the whole thing?  Were they granted access?  And did the VRS try to hide

Page 6518

 1     anything concerning the situation in the UNPROFOR base in Potocari?

 2        A.   Well, there were people with cameras crossing the road.  I don't

 3     know station they belonged to, but there were people taping the whole

 4     thing.  I did see people with cameras.

 5        Q.   For the record, can you also answer the last part of my question,

 6     were there any attempts to cover things up, to hide anything from the

 7     public about the arrival of the Muslim population in the Potocari base?

 8        A.   There were no attempts to hide anything and I don't think anyone

 9     could have.  Nothing was hidden.  Everything was public and whoever

10     wanted to get there to watch could.  It was a large area and there were

11     journalists about.

12        Q.   Thank you.  You said that they did not wait for you there and

13     that they had not organised the distribution of humanitarian aid.  How

14     did you manage the situation then?  How did you distribute it?  Did you

15     improvise it on the spot?

16        A.   Well, there was no order to it.  We just wanted to give it away

17     because there were crowds of people who were thirsty and hungry.  There

18     was no order.

19        Q.   Did you satisfy all those hungry and thirsty people in Potocari?

20     Did anyone come back to you later saying they were thirsty or hungry?

21     How did you provide that food?

22        A.   No, we didn't even come close to satisfying everyone.  Our

23     ability was limited and small.  As I said, I believe there may have been

24     up to 20.000 people there.  With the best of our intentions even if we

25     had that much aid it would have been difficult to make everyone happy.

Page 6519

 1     It was an enormous effort on our part which amounted to very little for

 2     them, I am afraid.  The capacity of our bakery was 3.000 loaves of bread

 3     per day so it must have been less than a quarter of a loaf of bread per

 4     person and of course it wasn't distributed evenly.  People were simply

 5     reaching out, taking all they could.  It all had to be done very quickly.

 6     There was no time to make lists and distribute things orderly.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, your microphone is off.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   In your statement, you said that you invested a lot of effort,

11     that you used your ability to the fullest even getting food and drink

12     from Serbia?

13        A.   Yes, we invested a lot of effort, but for them, I believe, it was

14     far too little.  It wasn't easy for us to provide all that because we

15     were short of those things too.  Our abilities were limited and that is

16     why we asked the people of the adjacent municipality of Ljubovija to

17     intervene and help as well, and they did, as did those from Zvornik.  But

18     it was still only in symbolic terms.  In any case, for us it was a great

19     effort because we were short of those items as well.

20        Q.   Thank you.  At page 17, which you can see on the screen, lines 14

21     to 20 you say as follows, and I believe you've referred to it already:

22             "I can say one thing and that is that the job that was confined

23     to me and to the local government was done with maximum correctness.  And

24     I think we even surpassed our material resources and capacities."

25             And then you go on to say what you have already said about asking

Page 6520

 1     for assistance from Serbia.  In the penultimate sentence you say:

 2             "We tried to do our best."

 3             Did I quote you correctly?

 4        A.   Yes, you did.  That is why I said that our abilities were

 5     limited.  The capacity of our bakery was 3.000 loaves of bread and we

 6     also had our own population to feed.  We had between 10- and 12.000

 7     people in town who needed to be fed.  Part of our production was also

 8     used for Potocari then, but we were very limited in our ability to

 9     satisfy such great numbers of people.  However, we did so as best we

10     could and in a responsible way.  We took it seriously.

11        Q.   In addition to the things discussed so far, such as food and

12     water, can you tell us whether you approached the whole issue selflessly

13     within the boundaries or limits of your ability and capacity?

14        A.   Of course we did.  We're all human and we sympathised with the

15     misfortune of those people, with their plight.

16        Q.   In trying to alleviate the situation, did you also bring in some

17     medical personnel such as doctors and others who could assist the

18     wounded?

19        A.   Yes, our medical team from the local health clinic was also

20     present in Potocari.  In the health centre, we organised an outpatient

21     unit with some 20 beds where we could briefly accommodate those who were

22     more seriously ill in Potocari.  We also approached that aspect.

23        Q.   In your statement you mentioned the request of a person to board

24     his family on one of the buses quickly because one of them was

25     handicapped.  Can you also describe that for us?

Page 6521

 1        A.   That person recognised me, his name is Hamed.  Before the war he

 2     had worked in the Municipal Assembly building as a courier.  He asked me

 3     if I could take on board his uncle because he was in a wheelchair.  I

 4     asked him where he was and he said that he was some 40 or 50 metres away

 5     under some trees.  Then some hundred metres down the road, I spotted

 6     General Mladic.  I went to see where the uncle was and then I realised

 7     that there were about 30 people in wheelchairs, or actually, not

 8     wheelchairs, but wheelbarrows.  They put them in wheelbarrows to move

 9     them about because they couldn't move by themselves.

10             When I saw the general, I realised that these people should all

11     be put together on a bus, the handicapped ones, and I wanted to inform

12     the general of that.  I said to Hamed, wait for me here, I'll be back

13     soon.  I spoke to the general and asked him if we could put them on a bus

14     among the first people to be transported because they are handicapped and

15     he said no problem.  Then I returned to Hamed and told him bring all of

16     them along.  However, we needed someone to push the wheelbarrows so it

17     took about 10 minutes for them to organise themselves and we took them to

18     one of the buses.  They were put on that bus and evacuated.

19        Q.   Do you know whether everyone was evacuated from the territory

20     controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21        A.   Do you mean the handicapped people?

22        Q.   Yes?

23        A.   Yes, definitely.  I have no contrary information.

24        Q.   Who brought them to Potocari from their homes?

25        A.   I suppose their family members.

Page 6522

 1        Q.   Did you bring anyone in to Potocari from the area of Srebrenica?

 2     Did you gather the population in Potocari?

 3        A.   No, they all arrived there on their own initiative, and by

 4     whatever means they could muster.  Mostly on foot.  The handicapped

 5     people had probably been brought in the wheelbarrows.

 6        Q.   Did any members of the VRS in the territory of your municipality

 7     go to the area controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in order to

 8     gather the population eventually down in Potocari?

 9        A.   No, no one did that.  They came there of their own accord.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know if any of the inhabitants from the

11     territory of Srebrenica municipality which was under the control of the

12     BiH Army in contacts with either you or your personnel from the

13     municipality or at any of the meetings had expressed a desire to stay in

14     Srebrenica, that they didn't want to join the others and go to either

15     Kladanj or to the territory under the control of Muslims?  Thank you.

16        A.   Nobody asked that from me.  I never heard of any case of anybody

17     who had expressed a desire to stay in the area, either in Srebrenica or

18     in Bratunac.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did any of the Muslim representatives, the three that

20     attended the meeting with you, demanded that any of the Muslims should

21     stay or perhaps that they should stay, that they didn't want to leave

22     Srebrenica since you said it yourself that Mr. Mandzic promised the

23     freedom of movement?

24        A.   Well, I mentioned the case of Milo Savovic, this Lajdic [phoen]

25     and Camila, she only was interested in her young daughters to leave on

Page 6523

 1     the first bus and she was prepared to leave on the last bus.  Although

 2     the general offered her and her daughters to be accommodated in the

 3     hotel, to stay there until they could be evacuated.  She turned that

 4     proposal down and the only thing that she asked for was what I mentioned,

 5     and that's all that she wanted.

 6        Q.   Since we are talking about the meeting at her request, can you

 7     tell me whether General Mladic put pressure on any of them, either

 8     verbally or in any other way?  Did they -- insisted on them stating a

 9     wish contrary to what they actually wanted?

10        A.   I even had the impression that the general suggested that they

11     should all stay.  On several occasions he suggested that, he offered them

12     the full freedom of movement, just like to all the other population of

13     the Bratunac and Srebrenica municipalities, on condition that people's

14     whose hands were bloodied should be prosecuted and that militarily

15     able-bodied men should surrender their weapons.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did you people from Bratunac, and I don't mean you

17     personally, but you from the authorities, did you know how much weapons

18     were there -- was there in Srebrenica, because the general insisted on

19     them surrendering their weapons?

20        A.   Well, let me tell you, there were different estimates.  Nobody

21     could say with any certainty how many people were armed and how much

22     weaponry they had, but we are certainly talking thousands.  I don't know.

23     I'm sure that we are talking about 5- or 6.000 in total.  I'm talking

24     about able-bodied men who carried arms.

25        Q.   Thank you.  On page 7 of your statement in lines -- or rather in

Page 6524

 1     line 9, you stated that you had spoken with some people and asked them

 2     where men were, and as you say in line 9, they tried to hide it from you

 3     and they said inevitably they were somewhere around, and finally turned

 4     out that they had gone into the forest, that they took to the forest to

 5     join the army.  Can you tell us, and I'm talking about lines 9, 10, and

 6     11, you have just been able to see them.  Can you tell us something more

 7     about that situation, why did they hide the fact where the men were, the

 8     men that you have just mentioned, the men who were armed, some 5- to

 9     6.000 of them in total?

10        A.   Well, I realised that there was something missing, people that I

11     saw were either very young or old, and there was a gap.  I didn't see any

12     of the people that I was supposed to know, that I knew.  And then I

13     approached a person, I believe, that I inquired about Sinanovic and some

14     others.  I inquired about their whereabouts and they sounded confused and

15     the answer was inevitably, well, here they are somewhere around here,

16     hanging around, and then I realised that they were hiding somewhere

17     because I simply realised that people were missing, the younger men were

18     missing.  And it turned out only later that those people had took to the

19     woods and that they went in the direction of Tuzla.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether those people had left

21     fighting or without any fighting, that they had to struggle to get to the

22     area under the control of the BiH Army?  Did they leave peacefully,

23     openly?

24        A.   The area of Srebrenica is very large, mostly covered with a

25     forest, and they walked through the woods, not along any of the roads.

Page 6525

 1     They were armed and they fought to break through to Tuzla.  They didn't

 2     take any of the roads to get there.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Just for the transcripts, tell us, please, whether

 4     they took secret roads to prevent anybody from stopping them?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  They travelled through the forest.  They shied away

 6     from roads and they mostly stuck to the woods, to the well-hidden areas.

 7     They didn't go along any of the roads.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Did you later hear from others from the

 9     representatives of the other municipalities through whose territories

10     they passed, or did you hear from the media whether there was any

11     fighting, was there any invadement [as interpreted] whether the

12     [indiscernible] information that travelled through the woods?

13        A.   When they got in the contact with the Army of Republika Srpska,

14     there was fighting, of course, but they mostly chose hidden trails, and I

15     believe that there was a lot more infighting than engagement with the

16     Army of Republika Srpska.  And when I say that there was more infighting

17     than anything else, what I'm saying is that they themselves were not

18     united, there were different streams.  Some of them advocated surrender,

19     they wanted to go back and surrender.  The others wanted to try and break

20     through, so there were conflicts among them.  There were different

21     situations.  There were killings, there were suicides.  I learned all

22     that only later.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] Witness, while we're on the same

Page 6526

 1     topic put by Mr. Tolimir, while we're on the same topic of the question

 2     put by Mr. Tolimir, please correct me if I'm wrong, if I understand

 3     correctly, you were trying to distribute food, water, so you were in

 4     charge of the humanitarian needs of the population that was in your

 5     municipality.  You were therefore in town.

 6             However, on page 52, line 15 of today's transcript, you say that

 7     in Srebrenica, in the greater area of Srebrenica, that area was covered

 8     by a forest.  There's a great deal of forest there, and that you said

 9     that the people who you noticed were missing were most likely in the

10     forest.  They were armed and they were fighting as they were trying to

11     reach Tuzla.

12             My question is the following:  You were in town and you were

13     distributing humanitarian help or aid.  How do you know then what was

14     happening within the forest if indeed there were armed people and they

15     were fighting?  Is this something that you had seen or is this something

16     that you heard of later on?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, Potocari itself is

18     located between Bratunac and Srebrenica at an accurate distance.

19     Potocari is 5 kilometres from Srebrenica as well as from Bratunac.

20     Srebrenica is a town in a mountainous area, in a hilly area, and the 5

21     kilometre road leading to Potocari goes towards Bratunac and that's where

22     it enters a low-lying area.  The refugees were in Potocari in the

23     low-lying area, not in the hilly area.  They had already descended into

24     the low-lying area.

25             Those that had taken to the woods, they went there from

Page 6527

 1     Srebrenica from the forested area, and they went in the direction of

 2     Tuzla.  They had never descended into Potocari before that.  Those

 3     militarily able-bodied men had immediately took to the woods from

 4     Srebrenica and why they did that, I suppose they were afraid because

 5     they -- their hands were covered in the Serbian blood and they were

 6     afraid to surrender to the Serbian army because they would have been

 7     prosecuted.  And that's exactly what the general had stated at the

 8     meeting.  I believe that it was their own decision to start working

 9     through the forest in the direction of Tuzla.  I don't know if my answer

10     was clear.

11             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  You indeed

12     answered to many elements of my question, but there is one aspect that's

13     missing.  You had also said that those people were armed and that they

14     were fighting, so from where you were located, was it possible for you to

15     realise, to notice that the missing population which you noticed was

16     armed and was actually fighting?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that from my acquaintances

18     or even friends and comrades from the Army of Republika Srpska who served

19     in the army.  I also heard that from Resid Sinanovic who had surrendered

20     and was detained in the command of the Bratunac Brigade.  He was the one

21     who told me how it was when they tried to break through to -- through the

22     forest from Srebrenica.  Resid Sinanovic is a Muslim.

23             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.

24     Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

Page 6528

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   In order to make things clear and show that you are not saying

 4     anything that is not a fact, could you please tell us here, primarily to

 5     the Trial Chamber, what is it that you learned from Resid Sinanovic, who

 6     was either an officer or a soldier of the BiH Army?  He didn't want to

 7     flee, he surrendered, he didn't want to join the break-through?  Thank

 8     you.

 9        A.   When I visited Resid Sinanovic at the command of the Bratunac

10     Brigade, he told me that he had set out with a group with an intention to

11     break through to Tuzla.  Together with him was his brother Muriz and his

12     relative Medo Suljagic.  The group was rather large, I can't give you any

13     numbers.  He actually didn't tell me how many there were, but the group

14     was large and there was a conflict among them.  Some of them were in

15     favour of surrendering and the other group wanted to continue to break

16     through.  Resid Sinanovic himself wanted them to surrender, and that

17     group chose him to lead them, or rather, to go down to the road to

18     surrender and to negotiate with the Army of Republika Srpska about the

19     rest of the group who had opted for surrender.  And he literally told me

20     that at that moment were chased away by your artillery, a shell fell

21     amongst us, and from that moment on, I didn't know what had happened to

22     my brother or to my relative or to any of the others.  I started walking

23     towards the road and the road was the one leading from Bratunac to

24     Konjevic Polje and further on to Vlasenica.  When he reached Sandici, he

25     came to the road and that's when he came by a policeman whose name is

Page 6529

 1     Mirko Peric and he surrendered to him.  And that police officer escorted

 2     him to the command of the Bratunac Brigade.

 3             So when I visited him we spent about an hour talking.  We had

 4     been associates from 1981 to 1984.  He was my chief and I was his deputy

 5     and besides our business co-operation, we were also good friends.  We

 6     visited each other.  We socialised.  He didn't survive.  I'm sincerely

 7     sorry about that.

 8             I tried, and I don't know whether you would be interested in

 9     hearing that, I tried to help him in 1992 at the very beginning of the

10     war.  I remember the date very well.  It was on the 5th of May.  On the

11     6th of May was my patron saint's day, St. George's day.  He called me by

12     phone and he told me, shall I come to your place or are you coming to my

13     place?  I need to talk to you.  I need to see you.

14             To be honest with you, the problems had already started around

15     the town.  And he lived in an apartment block whereas I lived in a family

16     house, I thought maybe it would be easier to me to go to his building

17     because it would be less conspicuous.  Nobody would see me talking to a

18     Muslim.  I'm being honest here.  Whereas that would have been a bit more

19     conspicuous if he had come to my place.

20             I came to his place and there he was with his wife and his two

21     sons.  Fortunately enough they are alive.  They are good lads.  They

22     reside in America.  They are healthy.  And he says, there's something I

23     would like to ask you.  Can you talk to Deronjic and ask him to issue a

24     pass to me.  I want to visit my brother in Skopje.  He had a brother in

25     Skopje who was an active officer of the JNA, Captain Morris Sinanovic.

Page 6530

 1     And he says, I see that things are not good in Bratunac so I want to go

 2     down there to Skopje until things calm down.

 3             At the time Miroslav Deronjic and the SDS issued those famous

 4     passes to people who wanted to leave Bratunac.  I said okay, I think I

 5     can do it.  I'll go and see if I can find Deronjic and I'll let you know.

 6     Deronjic is my neighbour, or was my neighbour, and that was around 1700

 7     hours.  I didn't find Deronjic at home.  His father told that he wasn't

 8     at home, and he said that he was somewhere around town.  I went looking

 9     for him and sometime around 8.00 somebody told me that he was in the

10     municipality building attending a Crisis Staff meeting.

11             I was not working at the municipality then.  How should I put

12     this, I was not involved in political structures then because I was not a

13     member of the SDS.  I was a member of the SDP.  So we did not see eye to

14     eye politically.  I went to the municipality and there there was a

15     courier who was sitting in that first office and I asked whether Deronjic

16     was there, and he said yes, he's in a meetings, and I said call him, I

17     need to see him.  And he said, I don't dare go tell him to come out

18     because he said that no one should disturb him.  And I said you go and

19     tell him that I'm looking for him.  Deronjic did come out after he called

20     him, and I said to him in the hall, Deronjic, what you would do for me,

21     do for this man, and he said what is necessary, and I said give him a

22     pass so that he can go to Skopje.  He said can it be done tomorrow?  I

23     mean, I said yes because it was already 8.00 in the evening.  And he said

24     all right, I'll give him one tomorrow morning.  I went back to Resid's

25     home and I said, Resid, you will get one in the morning.

Page 6531

 1             The morning of St. George's day broke out.  I said it was my

 2     patron saint's day and Deronjic's house is close to mine, and I asked

 3     where Miroslav was and they said he is asleep.  And I said I would need

 4     him, and they said he came only at 5.00 this morning.  All right.  An

 5     hour later he was still asleep.  And the meantime Resid phoned me and

 6     said what's going on, and I said I'll go there now.  And I went there and

 7     I woke Deronjic up, and he said let's go to the municipality and then he

 8     gave me four blank passes.  I took the passes, that was 11.00 already.

 9             I went to Resid's home and we filled them out together for the

10     four of them.  Every one of them got an individual pass.  And he said

11     well, let's say good-bye now.  He hails from Bjelovac which is a village

12     5 kilometres away from Bratunac.  And he said since Skopje is far away,

13     perhaps it's a bit late for me to leave.  He also had a car that was

14     nothing to write home about.  It was a small Fiat.  So then he said I'll

15     leave tomorrow.  He went home to spend the night there.  I think that was

16     his mistake.

17             The next day his mother-in-law came to see me, she came to my

18     home and said Resid and Beba, his wife, were returned by the police from

19     Ljubovija.  Well, how was that possible since they had passes, that's

20     what I said, because I made sure that Deronjic gave them passes.  And she

21     said yes, but they went to Srebrenica.  On the 12th Resid was taken

22     prisoner at the command.

23             Now, he said what had happened, he crossed the bridge on the

24     Drina between Bratunac and Ljubovija, and from there Ljubovija is 3

25     kilometres into Serbia.  When he was in Ljubovija, he was stopped by a

Page 6532

 1     patrol of the Ljubovija police and they returned him to Bratunac, to his

 2     misfortune.  Then he returned and went to Bjelovac and from Bjelovac

 3     through the forest he went with his wife and children to Srebrenica.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I don't want to interrupt you because I thought that

 5     you felt the need to tell us all of that.  Tell us one thing, do you know

 6     how Resid was killed and where he was killed?  Because here you said

 7     unfortunately he had not survived.

 8        A.   I don't know where he ended up.  I just know that he is not among

 9     the living anymore.  Where his life ended, I don't know.  At this burial

10     in Potocari now on the 11th of July, his remains were found by way of a

11     DNA analysis and he was buried in July of this year.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put an additional question to the witness,

14     please.  You told us quite a long story where he went with his wife, you

15     mentioned different locations.  How did you learn about that?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned about that from him

17     personally.  On the 12th of July when I visited him while he was detained

18     at the command of the Bratunac Brigade.  Or rather, on the 13th, I'm

19     sorry.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He personally told me all of this.

22     Have I made things clearer to you now?

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, indeed.  Judge Mindua has a question.

24             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] In fact, I wanted to put a

25     question but I think that Mr. Tolimir may have asked a same question

Page 6533

 1     already.  But just to be absolutely clear on this, witness, Mr. Resid

 2     Sinanovic you said unfortunately he did not survive, so are you

 3     confirming that you don't know under which circumstances he died?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I just know that

 5     from the command where he had been detained and where I had visited him

 6     on that day, he was transferred to the school in Bratunac, the Vuk

 7     Karadzic school.  What happened to him after that, I don't know.

 8             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] But you do remember the date, you

 9     remember the date of his transfer?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 13th of July.  On that day

11     when he surrendered.  On that same day he was transferred to the school.

12     Now, was it the 12th?

13             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] Of which year?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1995.  1995.  I mean, I'm not sure

15     now whether it's the 12th or the 13th of July, but the year is 1995.

16             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] Thank you very much, witness.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Please, you started talking about Resid when you said that he had

21     been delegated by part of the Muslims to negotiate their surrender.  Did

22     he ever carry this through, because you had described that he was hit by

23     an artillery shell and later on he was walking on his own, choosing his

24     own route, or did something else happen?  Can you give me an answer to

25     that?

Page 6534

 1        A.   That is literally what he said to me.  When the shell fell, they

 2     all started running away and then he went down the road to surrender.

 3     Perhaps it was 300 or 400 metres away from the road.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you just clarify something else.  You said that

 5     there were conflicts among them, the Muslims.  Did he mean verbal

 6     conflicts, physical conflicts, armed conflicts, what did he tell you?

 7        A.   Verbal conflicts, unpleasant ones.  He did not tell me about

 8     details, whether there was anything physical involved too.  At any rate,

 9     was it a quarrel or whatever, I don't know, but there were clashes.  He

10     said that one stream was in a favour of a break-through, another stream

11     was in favour of surrender.

12        Q.   Thank you.  When he said that one stream was in favour of a

13     break-through, did he say anything else about a break-through, because

14     Judge Mindua also asked you about the number of people who were in favour

15     of the break-through?

16        A.   No, he just told me a group.  He did not give me any numbers.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Later on did you find out how big that group was,

18     that group of Muslims who wanted to break through to Tuzla?

19        A.   I don't think it was one group.  I think it was say, tens of

20     people, probably those thousands they did not move in one group.  It was

21     tens of groups, I'm sure.  Now, I don't know how big his group was, but

22     it's certain that there were such groups, tens of them.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Since certain families were trying to hide from you

24     where it was that their men were hiding and they knew you because you

25     were together in Srebrenica, can you tell us now whether the families,

Page 6535

 1     the Muslim families amongst themselves and their armed soldiers who opted

 2     for a break-through, did they know or did they agree that one group

 3     should go to Potocari and the others should try to go through the forest?

 4        A.   Well, they knew that no one would carry out any kind of

 5     repression against women and the elderly.  Of course they were afraid for

 6     themselves and they probably didn't want to surrender their weapons, and

 7     others were afraid because their hands had been bloodied, so they knew

 8     that women and children would not be harmed in any way and the elderly

 9     wouldn't either.  That was probably their logic.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that in London in March 1992 when

11     Lord Carrington was handing over his duty to Owen, the health ministers

12     of the warring parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina signed a document according

13     to which everyone one of the parties was duty-bound to give free movement

14     to all of those who report as civilians and to pass through territory in

15     order to get to a locality where they wanted to stay during the war?

16     Were you aware of that since you were in government?

17        A.   I was not aware of that.

18        Q.   Thank.  Did you have an agreement with the Muslims about their

19     evacuation?  Was it on the basis of some document or agreement that they

20     left Srebrenica and went to Tuzla?  Thank you.

21        A.   Deronjic did that and he had that agreement.  He had a signed

22     agreement to the effect that the evacuation had been carried out

23     properly.

24        Q.   Thank you.  What was Deronjic's role at the time because he had

25     signed that?

Page 6536

 1        A.   He was the commissioner of president Radovan Karadzic for the

 2     municipalities of Bratunac and Srebrenica.

 3        Q.   Thank you are.  For the transcript, so he was the commissioner of

 4     the president of Republika Srpska yes or no?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, he was the commissioner for the president of Republika

 6     Srpska, Radovan Karadzic.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Was it not logical, then, that he would be involved

 8     in this?

 9        A.   Absolutely.  And he had that paper where there was the signature

10     of the commander of the Dutch Battalion too, and I saw that paper that

11     the evacuation of the civilian population had been carried out properly.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since you mentioned this, can we

13     have in e-court P682, or rather 628 so that we'd see whether this is the

14     document that the witness is speaking about.  He said that he had seen

15     it.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

17             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] I do apologise, it is P628.  That is

18     what the transcript is supposed to reflect.  There was a mistake.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was already corrected by Mr. Tolimir.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can you please show

21     page 2.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And we need the B/C/S version.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told that we still have not a B/C/S

25     translation, but we have two different English versions, one with the

Page 6537

 1     signature and the other one without.  Mr. Gajic.

 2             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] Mr. President, earlier on this

 3     document was shown in court and I think that in the original version it

 4     is page 2 and 3.  I mean, that's the Serbian version because the original

 5     version consists of an English original and an original in the Serbian

 6     language.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now the witness can

 8     read this.  There's no need for me to read it because this document has

 9     already been shown here.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Can you read the document to yourself, witness, and can you tell

12     us whether that's the document that you've been speaking about during

13     your testimony?  Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Trial Chamber please be

15     in a position to follow this in English on the other side of the screen,

16     so could the English version please be displayed for the Trial Chamber.

17     Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will have that on the screen quite soon.  We

19     need the first page.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read the first page.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could the witness

22     please see page 2 of the Serbian version and can the other participants

23     see this in English.  Thank you.  It's page 3, the original version in

24     e-court.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now the English version is missing.  We have the

Page 6538

 1     same in B/C/S on both sides.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you produce the English

 3     version on the right side, the first page, and can the second page in

 4     Serbian remain as it is now.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now everything is on the screen according to your

 6     request.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Witness, have you read this?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Is that a document that you saw?

12        A.   Yes, I believe so.  This document speaks about the evacuation

13     which had been completed.

14        Q.   Would you say that everything that is stated here, everything

15     that was done was exactly what had been promised to the civilian

16     population, the Muslim civilian population?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Was this document also signed by Mr. Nesib Mandzic as

19     the representative of the civilian authorities in the Srebrenica enclave?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Is that what the description under his signature says, that he is

22     the representative of the civilian authorities?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever understand his position to be anything

25     else but the representative of the civilian authorities of the Srebrenica

Page 6539

 1     enclave?  Thank you.

 2        A.   I believe that he was the president of the municipality, and here

 3     it says the representative of the civilian authorities.  I don't know

 4     whether that is one in the same thing, but I believe that at the time he

 5     was the president of the municipality.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you for your testimony.  Thank you for having

 7     had to repeat certain things.  I would like to thank you.  On behalf of

 8     the Defence, I would like to wish you a happy journey back home and God

 9     bless you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this completes the

11     cross-examination of this witness.  I've completed the part that the

12     Defence wanted to do in this part of the proceedings.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, General.  I wish you all

14     the best and thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

16             Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have re-examination?

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I do, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please go ahead.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

21        Q.   Witness, you testified quite a lot about the information that you

22     had concerning what was going on in Potocari with respect to the Muslim

23     population and the involvement of the Serb authorities including VRS in

24     that operation.  Now, it is correct, though, that you were in Potocari on

25     the 12th of July, 1995; right.

Page 6540

 1        A.   Right.

 2        Q.   You were only there for a couple of hours; is that right?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   You weren't there at all on the 13th of July, 1995; is that

 5     right?

 6        A.   I wasn't there.

 7        Q.   So with respect to the conduct of the VRS and other Serb

 8     authorities in relation to the Muslim population on the 13th of July, you

 9     don't have any firsthand information about what actually transpired, do

10     you?

11        A.   That's correct.  I wasn't there.

12        Q.   And, sir, with respect to the representations that are made in

13     the document that Mr. Tolimir just showed you, I don't know if we still

14     have it on the -- in e-court?  We do.  It's P2628 [sic].

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we can go to the second page in English.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think I have to correct that.  It is P628.  You

17     misspoke.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I did.  Thank you again, Mr. President.  P628.

19        Q.   With respect to this document where it indicates that there were

20     no incidents -- it says:

21             "No incidents were provoked by any side during the evacuation,

22     and the Serbian side observed all the regulations of the Geneva

23     Conventions and the International Law of War ..."

24             With respect to that representation as concerns the conduct of

25     the VRS on the 13th, you don't have any firsthand knowledge that that's

Page 6541

 1     actually true, do you?

 2        A.   I don't know what you mean when you say "firsthand."  I discussed

 3     that with Deronjic and if that's firsthand then I do have information,

 4     but I wasn't there, I wasn't present.

 5        Q.   Well, did Deronjic mention to you that he had specific

 6     information that there were killings and liquidations that were going on?

 7        A.   No, he didn't mention that.

 8        Q.   You never discussed that with him at all?

 9        A.   No, he never mentioned that.

10        Q.   All right.  You said that, and I apologise, because I don't have

11     the exact reference in the transcript, but I believe you said in response

12     to a question put to you by the Honourable Judge Mindua that you had --

13     it had struck you or you noted that in the population of Muslims gathered

14     in Potocari, there was a component missing, and I think you mentioned

15     that in the context of the men who took to the forest.  Do you remember

16     that part of your testimony?

17        A.   I do.

18        Q.   And it struck you at the time that there were some people that

19     were missing and so you spoke to, I assume, people in the crowd in

20     Potocari about that, or people that you knew; is that right?

21        A.   I saw that middle-aged men were missing.  That that part of the

22     population was missing.  I asked where they were and the answer I

23     inevitably heard were they were somewhere around, but I didn't see them

24     which means that they were hiding.

25        Q.   Well, nobody told you where they were, is that fair to say?

Page 6542

 1        A.   No, no, they just said, well, they are somewhere around here in

 2     Potocari, somewhere around here.

 3        Q.   On the night of the 12th in Bratunac you said you had on the

 4     occasion to see a number buses with Muslim men on it, on them, do you

 5     remember that?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   And you saw three and then you saw another set of three buses; is

 8     that right?

 9        A.   Right.

10        Q.   And on those buses were there Muslim men?

11        A.   Right.

12        Q.   Exclusively Muslim men; is that right?

13        A.   Only Muslim men.

14        Q.   Those Muslim men that you saw on the buses would have fallen into

15     about the age of the men that you think would have taken to the forest;

16     is that right?  That is, military aged roughly?

17        A.   No, I believe that even that population was older.  As old as me

18     or older than me.

19        Q.   As old as you or older than you.  All right.

20        A.   Older, well, that was 15 years ago, men between 50 and 60 years

21     of age or even over 60 or thereabouts.  It's an older part of the

22     population but not the oldest men.  55, 60.  Between 50 and 60 years of

23     age.  That would be my estimate based on what I remember.  For example,

24     there were no 30-year-old or 40-year-old men.

25        Q.   All right.  Now, those men, do you know where they came from?

Page 6543

 1     Did they come from Potocari?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   Do you recognise any of the men on any of the buses?

 4        A.   I recognised a man who called my name.  His name was Omer Jahic.

 5     He was seated in one of the buses around the middle of the bus and he

 6     knocked on a window.  I saw him, I recognised him.  And he told me, or

 7     rather, invited me to get on the bus.  He wanted to tell me something.

 8     The front door was open and a police officer was standing at that door.

 9     I didn't know that man.  I told him there is a man in the bus who wants

10     to ask me something, can I get on, and he says sure, go on.  And so I

11     climbed the stairs to the driver.  I asked him what he wanted, and he

12     says can you fetch me some water, and I said sure, of course.

13             And then I said to the police officer that man asked me water,

14     and he says well, give him if you have some.  And I pointed to a 5 litre

15     jerrycan and he was in the middle of the bus, and when I said, well, can

16     he come closer to me, well, I asked him to send me that jerrycan, but it

17     turns out that everybody in the bus had a jerrycan and that bus was

18     parked right in front of the entrance to the municipality building and on

19     the ground floor is the bathroom in the municipality building, and then

20     we poured water into all those jerrycans, the ones that came from that

21     bus and from the next bus behind, and I'm sure that we poured water into

22     at least 50 jerrycans.

23        Q.   Did he tell you where he was from, this person that you spoke to

24     on the bus?

25        A.   I knew him well.  He was a native of the village of Bljeceva and

Page 6544

 1     before the war he was a miner in Sase in the lead and zinc mine, and he

 2     was also a deputy in the municipal council.  I knew him well.  He asked

 3     me, what do you think will happen to us.  I asked the policeman about

 4     that and the police officer told me that they were being transferred to

 5     Batkovica and further on to Bijeljina to the collection centre down

 6     there.  That's what he told me.  They will be exchanged, he said.  They

 7     will be exchanged for the services from Tuzla.  And then I told my

 8     acquaintance don't worry, you will be exchanged, I got off the bus after

 9     that.

10        Q.   All right.  Was he staying in Srebrenica in July of 1995?

11        A.   I don't know, but I'm sure that he was.  He was in the enclave in

12     Srebrenica or in the territory of the municipality of Srebrenica.

13        Q.   Did he tell you where he got put on that bus?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Now, while you were in Potocari on the 12th for the couple of

16     hours that you were there, you said that you didn't see any men being

17     separated from any of the women and children; is that right?

18        A.   That's right.

19        Q.   And so in your estimation based upon what you observed that night

20     on the 12th, seeing the men on the buses, where do you suppose these men

21     came from?

22        A.   That's when I saw Deronjic, on that night, and when I asked

23     Deronjic about the buses in Bratunac and where they had come from because

24     it -- it was not just the six buses by the municipality buildings, there

25     were another three on one street and then there was another street behind

Page 6545

 1     the municipality building and there were another three there, and there

 2     were some 20 buses on the football pitch.  And when I asked Deronjic

 3     about where the buses had come from, that's when he told me that that's

 4     what Rajko Dukic had planted for us, that we owed Dukic that.

 5        Q.   I understand that, but being familiar with the lay of the land

 6     were you aware that there were that many Muslim men, for example, living

 7     in Milici at the time?  Or were these men from the enclave?

 8        A.   There were no Muslims in Milici.  All those were people from the

 9     enclave.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I see that it's time for the break,

11     Mr. President, I'll have a few more questions when we return.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, indeed, it is the appropriate time.  We must

13     have the second break now and we resume quarter past 6.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Welcome back, witness.  I'd asked you, or rather, you'd said that

19     you didn't see any men being separated while you were in Potocari.  You

20     may know that this Trial Chamber has received evidence in this case that

21     there were numerous hundreds of Muslim men separated from their families

22     right there in front of the UN compound while they were being removed

23     over the 12th and 13th of July, 1995.  There's two parts to my question,

24     first is, can you explain that?  And second, did you hear about this?

25        A.   As for the time I spent in Potocari, it was about two hours.

Page 6546

 1     During that time, I did not notice any separation.  Viewed from this

 2     distance and having read all sorts of things in the media, I can just say

 3     that on that a day when I was there, I didn't see that.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.  I don't

 6     wish to put any questions because the witness has already responded.

 7     Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Now, in respect of the treatment of the Muslim population in

11     Potocari, you've indicated, or at least suggested in your testimony, that

12     you didn't see any improper treatment of that population, and of course,

13     you may know that the Trial Chamber has also received evidence that

14     people were in fact being shoved and kicked and being pushed on to the

15     buses during the -- during the operation to remove them.  Can you explain

16     your observations, that's part one?  And part two is, did you hear

17     anything about that?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I think

20     that it would be better if the witness were asked a question first and to

21     have him answer and then further questions can be asked rather than

22     suggest to him through the question what he had heard.  That would be

23     better.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think Mr. Tolimir

Page 6547

 1     may be overlooking the fact that -- are we in open session?  May we go

 2     into private session for a moment?

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6548

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honour.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:

10        Q.   The question was, did you hear anything about the Muslim

11     population in Potocari being abused in any way; that is, kicked, struck,

12     pushed on to the buses during the operation to remove them?

13        A.   I really had not seen that.  I was far away from the buses,

14     perhaps 200 metres away.  I just brought Nijazija to the bus and I

15     brought the disabled people.  I think that all of that was done

16     correctly, properly.  I really did not see that.  This is the first time

17     I hear that there was that kind of thing, kicking, striking people,

18     pushing them on to buses.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21     Mr. Vanderpuye asked the witness about the removal of the population from

22     Potocari and the witness testified a few moments ago that they had all

23     asked to leave, so can he ask the witness directly whether the population

24     was being removed or whether they were leaving on the basis of an

25     agreement.  This way the content of the witness is not being looked at,

Page 6549

 1     only Mr. Vanderpuye's assumptions.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the answer of the witness is quite clear.

 3     He didn't see it and he didn't -- and he heard the first time of such an

 4     allegation today.

 5             Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Did you hear, witness, about the murder of a Muslim man who was

 8     shot by VRS soldiers against a house in Potocari before today?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Did you hear that there were bodies that were found by Bratunac

11     municipal workers in the Vuk Karadzic school after the Muslim men had

12     been held there and detained there on the 12th and 13th of July, 1995?

13     Did you hear that before today?

14        A.   I did hear that.

15        Q.   And did you hear that 40 to 50 bodies were recovered from that

16     school?

17        A.   I hadn't heard of a number that big.  I know that some have been

18     found but I wouldn't be able to go into actual figures.

19        Q.   And did you hear that at the time or did you hear that some time

20     after that?

21        A.   Later, during the course of those days.  Now, was it two or five

22     or seven or ten days later, I'd just have to guess.  But during those

23     days I did hear that there had been something like that.

24        Q.   Now, you've read this, the text of this declaration that is dated

25     the 17 July 1995, which talks about the evacuation being done correctly.

Page 6550

 1     Can you explain how that fits with your information concerning the bodies

 2     that were recovered of Muslim men from the Vuk Karadzic school in those

 3     days?

 4        A.   I think the text of the declaration pertains to the evacuation

 5     from Potocari, and these signatures testified to that.  Not the school

 6     from Bratunac because the signature of the commander of the Dutch

 7     Battalion and Nesib's indicate that it is an evacuation from Potocari,

 8     not from the school of Vuk Karadzic where a few killings had taken place.

 9     They had not had insight into that, either the commander of UNPROFOR or

10     Mandzic.  And that's what the declaration speaks of, evacuation from

11     Potocari.

12        Q.   You have heard, haven't you, that a number of the men in the

13     schools in Bratunac were brought there from Potocari, haven't you?

14        A.   I heard that they were brought not from Potocari but that they

15     were gathered from the road or perhaps some had lost their way from

16     Potocari.  At first sight the school looked to me like a collection

17     centre.  People who had simply lost their way, who were wandering about.

18     That was what I felt at first sight, and later on I had heard that there

19     had been killings as well and -- well, I don't know about people being

20     brought from Potocari, rather, that they were found in forests, on roads,

21     and some at their wit's end had lost their way.

22        Q.   Would it have been appropriate even if this were a collection

23     centre for those 40 or 50 people that you heard about to have been killed

24     in those schools?

25        A.   How would that be appropriate?  It's not appropriate to have a

Page 6551

 1     single person killed, how would that be appropriate?  Why kill people?

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I don't

 4     know whether this question is being put by the Prosecutor in order to

 5     establish the credibility of this witness of his or whether there is

 6     another basis for putting this kind of question.  The man testified here

 7     about how he had openly helped the Muslims even at the time when this

 8     situation was evolving, that he went to the municipality, to the buses,

 9     et cetera, that he actually brought his own life in danger by helping

10     others.  Thank you.

11             I think that the question is inappropriate in view of what we had

12     heard during the testimony of this witness.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, what is your position?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  First, I don't think

15     that the objection really has any basis given the question that I've put

16     to the witness.  I've asked him simply about information that he had

17     relative to the people that he says he observed on buses and in Bratunac

18     while he was there.  That's number one.  Number two is, that the nature

19     of these acts is something I want to raise with the witness as concerns

20     his knowledge about them, which I think is an entirely appropriate avenue

21     to elicit information from him on.

22             The second thing is, that if it is necessary to challenge the

23     witness's credibility on particular issues, I think that is entirely

24     appropriate to do so, particularly if the witness provides adverse

25     testimony to the party that's calling him.  I don't know that we've

Page 6552

 1     reached that per se in this circumstance, but if we get there, I'll be

 2     more than happy to let Mr. Tolimir know that's where I'm going and I will

 3     alert the Trial Chamber to that as well in accordance with the

 4     established procedure and jurisprudence, but I don't think we are there

 5     yet, and so I think that's an appropriate avenue -- appropriate way to

 6     dispose of the objection.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber has considered the position of both

 9     parties.  We see that you were referring to the document we have still on

10     the screen and the additional questions of Mr. Tolimir during his

11     cross-examination.  You should carry on and take into account that not

12     only you but also Mr. Tolimir and the Chamber will have at a later stage

13     to see and to weigh the account of this witness and his credibility.

14     Judge Nyambe has a question for the witness.

15             JUDGE NYAMBE:  No, actually, I just want a clarification from

16     Mr. Vanderpuye, that in your last submission, you are saying on certain

17     issues you might, I don't know how to put it, declare your own witness

18     hostile with the attendant consequences; right?

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, you are right.  You are right.

20             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Carry on, please, Mr. Vanderpuye.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   I think I was asking you about the information you had concerning

24     the bodies that were recovered from the Vuk Karadzic school in those

25     days, and I asked you if you had heard about that, you indicated that you

Page 6553

 1     did.  My next question to you was whether or not it would be appropriate,

 2     even if you thought it was a collection centre, for those killings to

 3     have occurred and you indicated that that would not be appropriate.

 4             So my question to you is, isn't that something, that is the

 5     killing of these men in the school, isn't that something that should have

 6     been brought to your attention?  Now, if you need to explain your

 7     position, I think it would be appropriate to go into private session, but

 8     if you think you can otherwise answer the question without doing that, go

 9     ahead.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But perhaps before the witness answers, I think

11     at this point in time I should make the witness aware of the Rule 90(E)

12     of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

13             Witness, I would like to read this paragraph to you.  I quote:

14             "The witness may object to making any statement which might tend

15     to incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness

16     to answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way, shall not be

17     used as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

18     offence other than false testimony."

19             Did you understand this provision?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes and no.  Well, yes.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There's a right not to answer a question if would

22     you incriminate yourself.  This is the most important point of this rule.

23     Mr. Vanderpuye, perhaps you'll help the witness with the question again.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:

25        Q.   What I was asking you was, isn't the fact that Muslim men were

Page 6554

 1     killed in the schools in Bratunac something that should have been brought

 2     to your attention?

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Maybe we should go into private session,

 4     Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6555











11 Pages 6555-6556 redacted. Private session.















Page 6557

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 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:

24        Q.   Where is Banja Koviljaca?

25        A.   Banja Koviljaca is in the Republic of Serbia.  It's a town some

Page 6558

 1     15 kilometres away from Zvornik, also on the banks of the Drina River.

 2     Perhaps 500 to 1.000 metres away from the Drina River, so one can easily

 3     say that it is actually on the Drina River.  In Bosnia, across the river

 4     Drina is a place called Kozluk.  Kozluk is across the river Drina in

 5     Bosnia, maybe that can help you get your bearings.

 6        Q.   Yes, that's very helpful.  Did you hear about executions that

 7     took place in Kozluk?

 8        A.   I did.  As well as in many different other locations in the

 9     territory of Zvornik municipality.  I read it in the press.  Now, after

10     so much time we've heard a lot of things, everything, things that we

11     never heard before.

12        Q.   You mentioned that Resid Sinanovic referred to -- rather you

13     referred to his brother Muriz and you also refer today a relative of his

14     named Medo Suljagic.  You remember?

15        A.   Yes, I remember.

16        Q.   Medo Suljagic, can you tell us what village he is from?

17        A.   Medo Suljagic was from the village of Voljevica.  That's about 4

18     kilometres away from Bratunac.  He had a degree in technological science.

19     Before the war, he had been an employee of the Kaolin factory in

20     Bratunac.

21        Q.   Now, with respect to -- sorry.  With respect to Muriz Sinanovic,

22     do you know what became of him?

23        A.   Muriz Sinanovic was Resid's younger brother.  He was a locksmith

24     or a machine fitter, and he also worked at the Kaolin factory.  Nothing

25     is known about their lot.  When I met Resid, he told me that after the

Page 6559

 1     shell had fallen among them, from that moment on he didn't know what had

 2     become of his brother, Muriz, or his relative Medo, but I know that Muriz

 3     did not survive.  He is nowhere to be found.

 4        Q.   Did you hear that his remains were found in a Zeleni Jadar grave

 5     that's associated with the Kravica killings?

 6        A.   I didn't hear that.  No, I didn't hear that.  I heard of Resid

 7     that he was buried last July, that the remains were found and identified

 8     and that he was buried at the graveyard in Potocari on the 11th of July.

 9        Q.   I'm asking you, I'm sorry about Muriz --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.  Mr. Gajic.

11             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one thing.  I

12     believe that every time the person's name has been mentioned, the name

13     has been erroneously recorded.  We have Muriz and all the other different

14     variations, just for the transcript, could we know exactly what that

15     person's first and last names are.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to say that?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be helpful.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think it would probably be best, yes, thank

19     you Mr. President.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person's name is Muriz,

21     M-u-r-i-z Sinanovic.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You see the name now on the transcript in front

23     of you, is that written in the right way?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that on the screen.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The court usher will help you.

Page 6560

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Muriz Sinanovic, yes, good.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 3             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   So my question related to Muriz Sinanovic, did you hear that his

 6     remains were recovered from the Zeleni Jadar grave associated with the

 7     Kravica warehouse killings?

 8        A.   I don't know where Muriz's remains were found.  I didn't hear

 9     that.

10        Q.   And Medo Suljagic?

11        A.   I didn't hear anything about Medo either.

12        Q.   Now, you said that you've heard, or rather, you said that Resid's

13     remains were placed in Potocari; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And are you aware or did you hear that his remains were recovered

16     from Cancari -- a grave on Cancari road in the Zvornik which is

17     associated with the executions that occurred in Branjevo on the 16th of

18     July, 1995?

19        A.   I've never heard of the village Cancarjevo and I don't know, I

20     never heard about the -- Resid's remains and where they were found.  On

21     the 11th, his wife arrived and the rest of his family when the burial

22     took place, on the 11th of July this year.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, you should clarify that.  I think

24     that was a misunderstanding.  You put to him Cancari Road and he

25     understood it as Cancarjevo.  Perhaps you should clarify that.

Page 6561

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Yes.  What I'd asked you was if you'd heard that his remains were

 3     recovered from a grave on the Cancari Road in the Zvornik area which is a

 4     grave-site that is associated with executions that occurred at the

 5     Branjevo military farm on 16 July, 1995?  Did you hear about where his

 6     remains were recovered?

 7        A.   No, I didn't hear where they had been recovered.

 8        Q.   You testified, I think relatively early in your cross-examination

 9     about the killings that occurred on Orthodox Christmas in Kravica in

10     1993.  Do you remember being questioned about that by General Tolimir?

11        A.   Yes, I do remember.

12        Q.   And you indicated, I think, that those killings occurred on the

13     6th of January, 1993?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Is that your recollection of when the Orthodox Christmas fell

16     that year?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we had a problem with a microphone of the

18     interpreters.  Perhaps you can put the question again.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, I think I can.

20        Q.   Is that your recollection of when the Orthodox Christmas fell

21     that year, 1993?

22        A.   I remember, it's always on that date.

23        Q.   Now, given your knowledge of the circumstances surrounding that

24     event, is it fair to say that that attack involved military combat action

25     against VRS forces?

Page 6562

 1        A.   Well, the Army of Republika Srpska may have been involved, a

 2     village may have been involved.  Kravica was inhabited by the civilian

 3     population and the troops were on the lines.

 4        Q.   All right.  Just bear with me for one moment.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Bear with me for one moment, please,

 6     Mr. President.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 9        Q.   I'd just like to briefly show you --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, it is two minutes before 7.00.

11     Mr. Thayer entered the courtroom, I'm sure that he intends to update the

12     Chamber with some problems related to the 92 bis decision.  Is it perhaps

13     appropriate to continue your re-examination tomorrow?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That would be best --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- before you move to another topic.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And I'm sure Mr. Thayer is dying to address the

17     Trial Chamber, so I'll cede the floor to him.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Witness, we have to

19     adjourn your examination for today and continue tomorrow in the afternoon

20     2.15 in this courtroom, but I think Mr. Thayer will address the Chamber

21     very briefly so that there's no need now to go into private session to

22     enable the witness to leave the courtroom.

23             What is your estimation, Mr. Thayer?

24             MR. THAYER:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  It should only take

25     me a minute or so, I think, to address the Court.  Shall I -- I can

Page 6563

 1     switch with Mr. Vanderpuye if we have a moment, thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That would be fine.  Good evening and welcome,

 3     Mr. Thayer.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  It's good to see you and

 5     Your Honours back again and in one piece.

 6             Here is the bottom line with respect to the 92 bis compliance:

 7     As to the witness's for whom cross-examination has been ordered, which we

 8     are treating as 92 ter witnesses in effect, all but four of those

 9     packages have been completed and sent to the Registry and, as you've

10     probably seen, those lists are being produced and the P numbers assigned

11     and so forth.  The remaining four are -- include two very lengthy

12     witnesses with days and days and days of testimony.  It's just

13     particularly time consuming witnesses, but we should have those completed

14     in the very near future.  So that whole category of witnesses will be

15     completed.

16             I understand that the Trial Chamber has particular concerns about

17     the other category, those for whom cross-examination has not been

18     required, and the Court naturally is curious as to why it's taking so

19     long when, from your perspective, all you are asking for is a list of

20     those 65 ter numbers to simply be provided.  The answer is, in those 92

21     bis packages, there were not only documents that were introduced,

22     tendered through those witnesses, but documents that fell into the other

23     categories as well, documents that were shown to the witness but admitted

24     through another witness, documents which were shown to the witness but

25     never admitted at all.  So we have the same issues with respect to those

Page 6564

 1     witnesses that we are dealing with.  In addition to what we think is the

 2     best practice for all concerned, if at the end of the day what we want

 3     are lists that everybody, all the parties can rely on in terms of

 4     locating exhibits and knowing where they have come from and how they were

 5     used, what we would like to do and what we are now in a position to do

 6     with our resources is put those 92 bis without cross witnesses exhibits

 7     in those categories because they are spread out among those categories.

 8             The other issues, as the Trial Chamber has seen, much like with

 9     what we have already seen in the 92 bis with cross witnesses there are

10     errors, there are errors, there are also documents which as the Trial

11     Chamber has noted are not in the 92 bis packages.  It would save a lot of

12     time if we could do this process once as we review all these transcripts

13     page by page to identify making sure all the correct exhibits are cited,

14     that the exhibit lists are complete, and that we have an accurate idea of

15     how they were used.  That we apply that same methodology to this other

16     category.  I think in the end of the day it will be a much more

17     productive project.

18             The good news is, of the, as I count them, 55 92 bis without

19     cross witnesses, 18 of those witnesses are victim impact witnesses who

20     did not have any prior testimony, so that should go very quickly.

21     Another 8 are intercept operator witnesses who I don't think will be

22     particularly complicated, and we - I think as you've seen - we've been

23     able to crank through I think in somewhat in excess of my original

24     estimate of five a week, I think we've been able to crank out a few more.

25     So I think we'll be able to come in sooner than the four months that I'd

Page 6565

 1     anticipated previously.  I can't give the Trial Chamber a harder figure

 2     than that, but I don't think it's going to be four months, I think it's

 3     going to be closer to another 60 days.  It might even be much faster than

 4     that.  We'll just have to see once we sit down and start knocking out

 5     some of these other witnesses but that's where we stand now.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this update.  I realise

 7     that you said around 60 days, that means instead of four months two

 8     months if I count correctly.  And this is a quite clear estimation, but

 9     referring to the first category, 92 ter, you said in the very near

10     future, can you specify that a little bit further.

11             MR. THAYER:  I think by the end of the week we'll be able to have

12     at least two of those four remaining witnesses completed.  I have to

13     check with Ms. Chittenden with respect to one of them.  With respect to

14     the other, and that I don't know his PW number off the top of my head, I

15     know it from Popovic, it's Popovic PW-168, that is an extremely extensive

16     testimony, so that, I am afraid, I cannot help the Trial Chamber right

17     now with the estimate.  It is volumes and volumes of testimony, days and

18     days and days of testimony.

19             So I think alone that will probably take two weeks to organise

20     those exhibits.  That will take one person two weeks because it literally

21     requires reading every page of the transcript and that's what this whole

22     process has required.  Ms. Stewart is advising me it's witness number 142

23     in this case.  Thank you, Ms. Stewart.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I hope you have taken into account the e-mail we

25     have sent from the Chamber to the parties how we understand the

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 1     procedure.  I think there's no need to discuss it any further.  Thank you

 2     for this update.  I think we come back to this topic in due course.

 3             We have to adjourn now and first we have to go into private

 4     session to enable the witness to leave the courtroom.  Private.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  I would like to express my

18     gratitude for the whole staff helping us, the court recorder, the

19     interpreters, the technical staff, and our apologies that we are again

20     running out of time.  Thank you very much.

21             We adjourn and resume tomorrow in the afternoon in this

22     courtroom.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.

24                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th of

25                           October, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.