1 Thursday, 4 November 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon. At the outset of today's
6 hearing, the Chamber would like to raise two procedural matters.
7 First, the Chamber notes that we are not scheduled to sit on
8 Monday, the 15th of November 2010. Taking into account the length of the
9 Prosecution case and the necessity of an expeditious trial, the Chamber
10 would like to sit on that day because at least two judges are available.
11 Yesterday, the Chamber has contacted the parties and communicated its
12 intention. Now, the Chamber would like to hear from the parties if they
13 are prepared to sit on the 15th of November and whether the OTP is able
14 to call a witness for that day.
15 Mr. Thayer.
16 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President, and good afternoon to
17 Your Honours, good afternoon to the Defence, and good afternoon,
19 Mr. President, we have thus far been able to accommodate some of
20 the last-minute scheduling changes and alterations. Unfortunately, in
21 this case we are unable to fill that day with a witness primarily for the
22 following two reasons: One is the testimony of the witness for whom the
23 Trial Chamber issued a Rule 54 subpoena, the videographer does not appear
24 to be co-operative at the moment. We have been in contact with him and
25 so far the indications are that he is being non-compliant with the Trial
1 Chamber's subpoena. We intend to re-establish contact to find out just
2 how firm that non-compliance will be. The bottom line is that we don't
3 think we can count on him being here next week, so it is difficult enough
4 as it is to try to then -- now we are in the position of pulling other
5 available witnesses to fill gaps, and we will be lucky if we can fill
6 next week, so with respect to Monday, the 15th, that will not be
8 The second reason that is preventing us from having additional
9 gap fillers is we are having and encountering difficulties with a number
10 of our witnesses who just cannot make it any more. They just don't have
11 the emotional and psychic and wherewithal to endure testifying for the
12 third or fourth time, and I'm speaking primarily of survivors who we have
13 placed on the witness list and, in a couple of cases, who have been the
14 subject of motions to convert their testimony to Rule 92 bis witnesses.
15 And we are finding that more and more witnesses are in the same position,
16 that they simply cannot take it any more. And we also have the same
17 situation with some non-survivor witnesses as well.
18 So right now, the confluence of those two factors places us in
19 the position where we don't have, I don't think, anybody to fill that day
20 on the 15th. Were Mr. Stojkovic to be available it would be a different
21 story, but we are now in the position of having to fill possibly three
22 days next week, and I can tell you what we have in mind for you for that
24 The first is we have Mr. Blasczyk, ever our gap filler, available
25 to testify concerning what we refer to as the road book. In the Popovic
1 case, Mr. Blaszczyk testified for a couple of days concerning the Zoran
2 Petrovic video. Mr. Petrovic was a Belgrade-based journalist who during
3 a trip to Srebrenica on the 13th and afterwards videotaped events, and
4 the Trial Chamber is no doubt familiar with portions of that video which
5 have been shown recently. Given particularly that the Trial Chamber has
6 recently been on the site visit and has a better idea now of where some
7 of these locations are, it's as good a time as any to present this
8 testimony during which we have a full colour book of video stills from
9 that video. Mr. Blasczyk explains exactly what's going on in these
10 stills and where, more importantly, along that video and along the road
11 from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje in particular certain events are taking
12 place. We think that that testimony is very helpful for understanding
13 better the context and the location.
14 So I am working to get him ready and myself ready to put him on
15 next week. I can tell you that the two most relevant exhibits are P1251,
16 which has been marked for identification in connection with
17 Mr. Petrovic's proposed Rule 92 -- I can't remember whether it was ter or
18 bis but it's been accepted under one of those rules by the Trial Chamber
19 and it's been provisionally admitted and that is in e-court, but again we
20 will have the actual full colour versions for the Trial Chamber to look
21 at during the course of Mr. Blasczyk's testimony so we don't have to rely
22 on necessarily e-court which is a little bit smaller.
23 The second exhibit in connection with Mr. Blasczyk's proposed
24 testimony is 65 ter 2178 which is an interactive CD containing the --
25 much of the same information and video footage but allows the user to
1 rotate the images in a 360 degree manner so that you truly feel like and
2 can orient oneself on the spot and that incorporates latter day filming
3 of these same positions where Your Honours recently visited. Again, we
4 think that that's helpful for really getting a feel of how things were
5 happening during these events on the road. So that's the first gap
6 filler we have.
7 The second gap filler -- oh, I beg your pardon, actually the
8 first gap filler that we are trying to obtain is the return of
9 Colonel Egbers. He has indicated that he is available for Tuesday, the
10 9th. We are in the process of seeing whether there are Dutch
11 interpreters available for that day. If he's not or if the interpreters
12 are not available we will start with Mr. Blaszczyk, he's a sure thing,
13 Colonel Egbers is not a sure thing right now. We will update everybody
14 when we have more information.
15 If we still have a gap towards the end of the week, we have
16 Ms. Gallagher available to return to testify about the -- what we refer
17 to as the Muslim ID book, which is a book of video stills of individual
18 Muslim men who were filmed, in some cases by Mr. Petrovic and in some
19 cases by others, at various points during the deportation from Potocari.
20 The point of the book is to identify, from those video stills, individual
21 Muslim men and boys who did not survive and whose remains have been
22 identified in various mass graves or who otherwise remain missing on the
23 ICRC missing list, and Ms. Gallagher is available to explain how this
24 book was put together and the foundation for the contents of the book.
25 So I think we should be able to have adequate witnesses to fill the week
1 next week should the subpoena not be complied with.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just for better understanding, Mr. Thayer, you
3 mentioned three witnesses, Mr. Blaszczyk, Mr. Egbers, and Ms. Gallagher.
4 And you will schedule them for next week?
5 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In order to conclude their testimony; is that
8 MR. THAYER: Well, in the case of Mr. Blaszczyk and Ms.
9 Gallagher, they would be beginning new testimony. I don't know how far
10 we will get, for example, with Mr. Blaszczyk testimony overall, whether
11 we will finish cross, for example, but the idea is to at least get them
12 started on that new testimony, if we -- in addition if we get
13 Colonel Egbers in. Right now we are operating under the presumption that
14 the subpoena's witness will not be available next week.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you talking about next week or the following
17 MR. THAYER: Next week because next week we had a subpoenaed
18 witness scheduled and then the following week we had another -- the
19 second subpoenaed witness scheduled to testify. So I'm speaking of the
20 videographer for next week and the other witness for the following week,
21 that is, the week of the 15th that is the subject of the Trial Chamber's
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If the testimony of the relevant witnesses will
24 not be finished next week, why is it not possible to sit on the 15th?
25 Monday, the 15th? It's the following week.
1 MR. THAYER: That would be possible, Mr. President, if that
2 testimony is not completed. I expect that if cross-examination is
3 started, if the Defence is in a position to begin cross-examination of
4 Mr. Blaszczyk or Ms. Gallagher that they would be finished by next week.
5 If not, yes, I think we would be available to sit on the 15th, with those
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, what is your position to sit on the
8 15th of November, the Monday of the following week?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have no problem with that at
10 all, if it is in the afternoon, thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. In that case, we should
12 schedule a hearing on Monday, the 15th of November in the afternoon,
13 pending the question if the examination of the witnesses we are talking
14 about is not finished. Please continue, Mr. Thayer.
15 MR. THAYER: I just wanted to add one thing, Mr. President. With
16 respect to the subpoenaed witness who is scheduled for next week, I just
17 wanted to give the Trial Chamber an idea of where we may be headed with
18 that. Should the witness continue to affirm his non-compliance with the
19 Trial Chamber's subpoena, we will be applying to the Trial Chamber for an
20 order in lieu of contempt indictment to be issued by the Trial Chamber
21 along with a warrant for that witness's arrest, to force him to comply
22 with the valid order of this Trial Chamber for his testimony before the
23 Court, and again this is witness number 185 we are speaking of. It is
24 the Prosecution's view that having that order, those proceedings, emanate
25 from the Trial Chamber will be the most expeditious and direct way of
1 accomplishing the transfer of this witness to the Tribunal and obtaining
2 ultimately his testimony which is what we want. So again, the Trial
3 Chamber can expect that application should he continue to exhibit his
4 desire not to comply with the Trial Chamber's subpoena.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: After having received such an application, the
6 Chamber will take that into account and consider it. Thank you very
8 Now, I would like to raise the second topic. During the
9 testimony of witness Egbers on the 1st and 2nd November, earlier this
10 week, the following exhibits were admitted without a B/C/S translation.
11 First, the Exhibit P1149, this is an UNMO situation report, and secondly,
12 the Exhibits P1150 and P1153. These are chapters of reports of the
13 Netherlands Institute for War Documentation. In the Popovic case these
14 exhibits have been tendered by the Defence and admitted without a B/C/S
16 The Chamber would like to inquire with you, Mr. Tolimir, whether
17 you intend to use these documents during his continued cross-examination
18 of -- your continues cross-examination of Witness Egbers and whether you
19 therefore require these documents to be translated or if you would, in
20 this particular instance, waive your right to receive this evidence in a
21 language you understand.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
23 Defence shall not waive its right to find out what is the content of
24 those documents, given the fact that I do not know the language. And
25 secondly, they have been extremely important, they are important for this
1 Defence, they have been important to other defence teams, and we should
2 like to ask and would appreciate receiving an early translation.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In this case, the documents I have mentioned are
4 only marked for identification and not admitted yet, pending translation.
5 Thank you very much. If there are no other matters to discuss, the
6 witness should be brought in, please.
7 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, while the witness is being brought in
8 we have some updated translations to inform the Court about. We have
9 P365b, P398b, P375b, P382b, P433, P407d, P407c, P606, P618, P843c, P963,
10 P1304, and P1227b.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. These exhibits are now
12 admitted into evidence.
13 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President, and that concludes my
14 business before the Chamber this afternoon. May I be excused for the
15 remainor of the proceedings?
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, have a nice evening.
17 MR. THAYER: And you as well, Mr. President and Your Honours.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 Mr. Gajic, you wanted to raise something too? Mr. Gajic, I saw
21 you on your feet. Nothing, okay.
22 Good afternoon, Mr. Janc, welcome back to the courtroom. May
23 I remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth still applies.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we are still in the stage of
1 cross-examination, if I recall correctly.
2 Mr. Tolimir, the floor is yours.
3 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC [Resumed]
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I great
6 all present, I wish God's peace to this house and that this case be
7 concluded in keeping with God's will and not mine. I great Mr. Janc and
8 I bid him welcome in our midst.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. At the conclusion of the last day of your testimony, I asked you
11 whether anyone, before this Court, and it was unclear whether a convict
12 or an accused, it was unclear on that day, whether anyone had been
13 convicted of murders in Trnovo before this Court.
14 A. Yes, I do remember this question, yes. And I think I -- that I
15 have provided you with an answer.
16 Q. Thank you. I will tell you what your answer was:
17 "Yes, these were the only murders in regard of which indictments
18 were brought against those who were accused for events in Srebrenica."
19 On the basis of your answer, I cannot actually gather whether
20 anyone had been convicted before this Court for those murders.
21 And you also said:
22 "I would have to consult the relevant judgements."
23 A. Yes, that's true. And I consulted the Popovic judgement in
24 relation to this issue, and I found out that the individuals were
25 convicted for this crime and it is -- it is concluded in the JCE common
1 purpose issue and it is discussed there. So I can confirm that the
2 individuals were convicted for this crime, yes.
3 Q. Thank you. As you have now just said that it was a part of the
4 JCE, can you tell us on what grounds are all other indictees accused of
5 the so-called joint criminal enterprise associated with those who
6 committed the murders in Trnovo?
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye?
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to
9 you, good afternoon, everybody.
10 Mr. President, I object to the question. It is true that the
11 convictions that arose in other cases with respect to these killings does
12 have some relevance in this case. However, the witness's knowledge about
13 the legal basis supporting those convictions, or even the factual
14 circumstances underlying those convictions, is of little relevance, if
15 any, to this case and, in particular, to the specific issues toward which
16 the cross-examination is directed.
17 The witness testified, in particular, with respect to the
18 provenance and authenticity of videotape footage. Part of the videotape
19 footage encompassed the crimes about which General Tolimir is
20 legitimately inquiring about on cross-examination. However, whether or
21 not an individual -- whether or not this particular witness knows the
22 legal basis upon which a conviction involving those crimes was founded in
23 another proceeding, in another judgement, is really of marginal relevance
24 to his testimony and marginal relevance to the issues before this
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, if you want to find out on which
2 reasons and which legal basis somebody was convicted, it is very simple
3 to find out by reading this judgement. I think it can't be helpful to
4 use this witness to find out if somebody was sentenced according to JCE
5 membership or something else. You should focus on the knowledge of this
6 witness and the facts he can provide you. Please carry on.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Presiding Judge. Thank
8 you, Mr. Vanderpuye. I accept everything that you said. My purpose is
9 to obtain the truth but I can rephrase the question.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Did you explore who ordered the crimes in Trnovo to be committed?
12 A. Yes. I was trying to get this information, reviewing the
13 documentation and various materials we have -- the OTP is having in
14 possession, and more than I thought here during my testimony I couldn't
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.
18 Thank you.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Thank you. When taping this video, it is obvious from the
21 transcript, the cameraman says, and I quote, and that is page 3 -- pages
22 3 to 13, it is -- it is Exhibit P1024, page 13, line 15, and can that be
23 brought up on the screen for the benefit of the witness, please?
24 I apologise, it is page 3 of a total of 13.
25 Thank you, but we see the document but we don't see page 3.
1 Could page 3, line 15, be brought up, please? Here we can see it in
2 English, Aleksandar is showing this to me, the first word is "cameraman,"
3 and he says:
4 "Zekan, go quickly, turn the truck around and bring it back. My
5 battery has died on me."
6 Thank you. Do you remember that he said that in the video clip
7 that you showed us?
8 A. Yes, I do remember this portion of the video, yes.
9 Q. Does that mean that he wanted a new battery in order to be able
10 to record the killings? Is that what he meant when he said, "My battery
11 is dead"?
12 A. Yes, exactly. That's what he meant, and you can see immediately
13 after that on the video that the truck goes away, and according to the
14 statements we have obtained from the individuals, that truck driver was
15 going back to pick up another battery. So -- and since this spot was not
16 far away, two to three kilometres away from their base, the truck driver
17 was back later on and this individual replaced the battery. And you can
18 hear later on, when the execution is taking place, that battery is again
19 dying, so we will see his voice again saying, the cameraman is saying,
20 also something in that sense that the battery is -- is -- also this
21 battery is dying.
22 Q. Thank you. Bearing in mind that you studied the video clip and
23 that you looked at it carefully and you heard him ask for a battery, can
24 you tell from the video clip that the executions were being delayed while
25 waiting for the camera to come back with a new battery?
1 A. I would say the camera was always there. The camera didn't go
2 back to their base and return back. The camera and the cameraman was
3 always there, only the person, one of them, went back to their base to
4 pick up a new battery, and then this individual returned back and the
5 battery was changed. And then, yes, we can say that that was the reason
6 that the execution was delayed because they were waiting for the new
8 Q. Thank you for correcting my mistake. I said did they wait for
9 the camera and I should have said did they wait for the battery.
10 Does this point to a conclusion that somebody ordered the camera
11 person to document the execution? Did somebody instruct him to record
12 the executions?
13 A. Yes. That's true. And when we -- I mean the OTP interviewed him
14 he confirmed that fact, that he was ordered to film the execution, and
15 not only that, during the -- on the film itself you can see that one of
16 the Skorpion's members turns back to him and he's asking him that he
17 needs to film this, otherwise -- and if the film will not be okay, he
18 would also be killed. Something in that sense. So he was ordered, yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Did the OTP investigate where such an order could
20 have come from? Did the OTP learn anything about that?
21 A. The OTP tried to obtain as much information as possible on how
22 this incident took place, who ordered it, when it took place, and all the
23 circumstances regarding this event. I can confirm that we didn't get
24 everything what we wanted so -- and during information I provided here
25 during my testimony is all I can say what -- what the Prosecution is
1 having in their possession.
2 Q. Thank you. Two witnesses, as you have just said it yourself, and
3 we can see this in document P1023, say that the cameraman was ordered to
4 film the executions. Did the OTP investigate who had the motive to do
5 that? Did it try to establish who that person was, or what position such
6 a person might have occupied?
7 A. Yes, the OTP did investigate that fact, and my answer to your
8 question would be very similar to my previous one so that for sure we
9 didn't get all the information regarding this incident, in particular
10 what you are asking me who was the main individual who ordered these
11 killings, I mean from the higher level military or within the police
12 organisation. So -- but individuals who were involved in this incident
13 are unknown.
14 Q. Thank you. Since you have the document in front of you, and you
15 can look the fifth line in the third paragraph, where two persons say
16 that an order had been issued to record the executions, wouldn't it be
17 desirable to find out who had the motive to issue such an order? Maybe
18 that would also shed the light on all the other killings in Srebrenica.
19 Do you know if anybody has investigated that, and if they did, do you
20 know what the results of such an investigation may have been?
21 A. The OTP wanted to get as much information as possible, as
22 I emphasised many times so far, and more than we got, we didn't -- we
23 didn't get. So of course, it is of our interest to find out what was the
24 motive, what was -- who was standing behind every particular crime, and
25 in this case, the executors are known to the OTP and what is also known
1 who are the victims, it is also known where this incidents took place,
2 how these victims were most probably brought from Srebrenica area to this
3 area, and these are information which OTP obtained during the years.
4 Q. However, before we draw any general conclusions about the
5 responsibility of the so-called joint criminal enterprise, and since two
6 persons here are saying that an order had been issued, and they were all
7 arrested, including the one who gave the order to them, did you try to
8 talk to that person in order to find out where the original order for the
9 executions to be documented, to be filmed, had come from?
10 A. Yes, indeed, the OTP talked to this individual, and if I'm not
11 wrong, he didn't tell us where did the order come from.
12 Q. It would be very important to know whether he himself confirmed
13 that he was acting upon somebody's order. Did he confirm that? But he
14 didn't want to name the person who issued that order. Is that a fair
15 representation of what you just said?
16 A. I'm not sure about this person, what actually he said to us, but
17 I'm sure he didn't name the individuals, but for other details you are
18 asking me now I would rather consult his statement once more.
19 Q. Thank you. At trial in Belgrade, did that individual perhaps
20 name the person who had issued the order? Did he perhaps state that
21 somebody had ordered him to film the executions in Trnovo?
22 A. My response would be the same. I would need to consult his
23 Belgrade statement also, but if you have this statement and this portion
24 of his interview, I can -- I can take a look and I can agree that this
25 statement we have received from the Serbian authorities, and I can
1 confirm and agree that this is what he said, yes.
2 Q. Thank you. I don't have the right to testify here and I don't
3 have the same amount of materials as you do. I'm asking you whether he
4 said that it had been ordered to him to execute the men and to record the
5 executions on a videotape. Just say "yes" or "no" and that will be the
6 last of my questions about that.
7 A. Yeah, I think if my recollection is correct, that the answer
8 would be yes.
9 Q. Thank you. If he said yes, then a new issue may be raised here.
10 There was therefore somebody, before the killings took place, that -- who
11 wanted the killings to take place, who ordered those killings. Did you
12 investigate whether anybody had the motive to order those killings and to
13 order those killings to be documented on a videotape?
14 A. In relation to our investigation, I've already told you how far
15 did we get with the investigation. And many, many different options are
16 possible, always. And, yes, that would be my response to your question.
17 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, or me, for
18 that matter, whether you know if Mr. Medic is going to testify before
19 this Trial Chamber and in these proceedings. Thank you.
20 A. No. I am sure he's not going to testify, and this individual is
21 the -- he was the chief of the Skorpions unit and he was convicted in
22 Belgrade, and he is serving his sentence right now there. So the
23 Prosecution in this case did not call him as a witness.
24 Q. Thank you. Did you investigate if anybody from the leadership of
25 Republika Srpska and the Army of Republika Srpska had a motive to order
1 such an execution and document it by a film camera? Was anybody in
2 either the political or military leadership interested in doing that?
3 Thank you.
4 A. I'm not aware of any such investigation being done, so I'm not
5 aware, so I think I cannot respond to this question.
6 Q. Since you yourself are an investigator, could you tell us whether
7 it would be necessary to investigate that, since the whole matter is
8 treated as a joint criminal enterprise? Thank you.
9 A. It's usually necessary to investigate as much as possible. So --
10 but sometimes it's impossible to do that, and there are different factors
11 for that. So in general sense, I can -- I can agree with you that it's
12 important to find out, you know, who is behind each and every crime
13 committed, and I don't see any difference here, with this case.
14 Q. Thank you. Since the crimes were committed by individuals who
15 were outside of the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you received
16 the document from Sarajevo which is in the centre of Bosnia and
17 Herzegovina, did you investigate whether the order issuer perhaps had
18 been located in Sarajevo? Thank you.
19 A. If you can be a little bit more clear regarding which document
20 you are now talking about?
21 Q. Well, the film was made by a cameraman and other persons who
22 belonged to the Skorpion group, a group that was active outside of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you received it from a reliable source from
24 Sarajevo, a part under the control of BiH. Did you investigate the
25 possibility that the murders and their recording may have been ordered
1 from Sarajevo?
2 A. This is now a misinterpretation. We never -- we never said and
3 according to the declaration we can see on our screen, it's clear how the
4 Prosecution obtained this video, when, from which person, it says here of
5 course as a confidential source, and this source is not a member of ABiH.
6 He is a member of the Skorpions unit, and I think it's quite clear how
7 the Prosecution obtained this video and from whom. So it has nothing to
8 do with the BiH army of BiH or any other BiH federal institutions.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question.
10 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you. At page 16 of today's transcript, line
11 13, or starting with line 12, you state that:
12 "So the Prosecution in this case did not call him as a witness."
13 Do you know if he has been called as a witness in another case
14 before the Tribunal? Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, if I'm not mistaken he hasn't been
16 called by any other Trial Chamber, simply due to the fact that he was
17 arrested in 2005 already, soon after this video was introduced in this --
18 at the ICTY courtroom for its first time during the Milosevic trial and
19 he has been arrested after that.
20 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Janc, if you'd look at paragraph 7 in the document that's
25 before you now, if you look at line 1, in paragraph 7, you will see that
1 it says here, "I went to Sarajevo." That's the senior OTP officer who
2 says that. And then he speaks about the money that had to be approved
3 for him to obtain that. And then in paragraph 8 he says:
4 "Before leaving Sarajevo for The Hague, the intermediary arranged
5 with us to meet a certain person and that meeting was supposed to take
6 place a week later."
7 Bearing that in mind, in my previous question when I suggested
8 that order issuer may have been from Sarajevo and you said no, how can
9 you say no if you didn't investigate the matter if you received the film
10 from Sarajevo? Can you tell us what is the link between Sarajevo and the
11 perpetrators of the crime? Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think the witness
14 has already answered the question. The declaration speaks for itself as
15 to the issues that are being put by General Tolimir at this time, and it
16 does not speak to the circumstances under which the initial order to
17 carry out the executions or to videotape the executions were issued, and
18 so I just don't see that it's a relevant question based upon this
19 document. If there is some other information the general seeks to
20 obtain, I think that's fair, but I don't think that emanates from a
21 review of this documents or anything this document says.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I think the witness is capable to
23 answer this question, especially the last part:
24 "How can you say no if you didn't investigate the matter, if you
25 received the film from Sarajevo? Can you tell us what is the link
1 between Sarajevo and the perpetrators of the crime?"
2 I think this part of the question can be answered by the witness.
3 Mr. Janc.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. Indeed, the Prosecution obtained
5 this video in Sarajevo, but from -- again from a person who came to
6 Sarajevo, so that individual just wanted to get in contact with the OTP
7 investigators in Sarajevo for some reason, and how I'm able to conclude
8 that is based mainly on this declaration and that's more or less --
9 I mean in relation to this place where we got the video. As per your
10 question how far Sarajevo is from this location, I think it's around 30
11 to 50 kilometres south from Sarajevo. That's where Trnovo is.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you. Is there anything in any of the documents that would
14 point to that conclusion? You say, "I concluded." Is there anything in
15 the documents that would points to that conclusion? I don't see any such
16 thing in the documents disclosed to us by the OTP. Maybe you have
17 something else, a different statement, or something of the sort. Thank
19 A. One is this declaration, then we have also the statement of this
20 individual himself who provided us with this tape, and the second source
21 where I can see which -- where something was obtained is also our
22 internal OTP record. When we obtain some evidence, we make a little
23 synopsis of how we get the stuff, from which source and from where, and
24 this is additional source where I can see from where certain evidence was
25 obtained or found.
1 Q. Thank you. In the material disclosed to us by the OTP, we can
2 only see that it is P345, in which case we are not able to know the
3 details that you're talking about. I apologise if I'm asking you
4 something that we are not supposed to know. However, I think it would be
5 very important to know whether there is any link between Sarajevo and the
6 organisers of that crime. Thank you.
7 My next question is this: Do you know, did you investigate, why
8 the persons had been brought to Trnovo and murdered there in front of the
9 camera? And we can see on the footage that the cameraman was threatened
10 by that other person who told him if you don't get it right, we will kill
11 you as well. So why did these individuals who were murdered have to be
12 brought to Trnovo in the first place?
13 A. The investigation itself didn't come to a clear conclusion
14 regarding this fact. So the information we have, and based on the
15 evidence we have, we are -- we may conclude that these individuals are
16 the victims from Srebrenica because of the fact they left Srebrenica
17 enclave after its fall, and we know that they were transported from
18 Srebrenica area to Trnovo soon after the fall of Srebrenica, and that
19 they were killed there. They were handed over to this Skorpion unit and
20 killed by them.
21 Q. Thank you. You have just told us we know that they were brought
22 from Srebrenica and handed over to the Skorpion unit. Does it mean that
23 the Skorpions had not actually captured them but that they were brought
24 over and handed over to them in that place?
25 A. Yes. From documents, statements the OTP has, we can conclude yes
1 that's the case. They were brought there by bus or truck from Srebrenica
2 area and handed over to the Skorpions unit.
3 Q. Thank you. In the first part of your testimony, you said that
4 there is a statement by their close relatives who stated that they were
5 attempting a breakthrough with rest of the people in the column and that
6 was the last news that they had of them. Is that what you stated in the
7 first part of your testimony?
8 A. Yes. One of the individuals we see on this video, one of those
9 six, was breaking through the -- this area with his brother-in-law, and
10 he identified him as the person with whom he left Srebrenica together
11 after its fall.
12 Q. Thank you. Does this indicate that those persons left Srebrenica
13 with a column which was attempting to break through, and do you have any
14 witness testifying to the fact that they had been returned to Srebrenica
15 again? Because a while ago you said that they had been brought from
16 Srebrenica to Trnovo.
17 A. Okay. What I meant with Srebrenica is not the Srebrenica town
18 itself but the area of Srebrenica, which is much wider, you know.
19 I would rather say the area -- the way where the column was passing
20 towards the north, so the wider area of Srebrenica, I should say, so they
21 were brought from this area down to Trnovo. So we have witnesses of
22 course, and one of these -- at least one of these witnesses, I think,
23 will also testify here and will confirm that one of these victims left
24 Srebrenica after its fall, heading towards free territory, through the
1 Q. Thank you. As you know all this, do you know where they were
2 arrested, the exact location? Were they arrested and then handed over to
3 the person who took them to the execution site?
4 A. No, this information is not known to the OTP. I made searches on
5 these individuals to see if any additional information or documentation
6 is available in our collection, in OTP collection, in order to confirm at
7 least something where and when they were captured but I couldn't find any
8 information regarding this fact.
9 Q. Thank you. And do you know the time of their arrest and the
10 exact time of their execution? Does the OTP know these facts?
11 A. For the time, regarding the time of their capture, I can say it's
12 not known to the Prosecution. Based on all the facts which Prosecution
13 is aware of, it should be after the fall of Srebrenica in July of 1995.
14 And according to the statements the OTP obtained from those individuals
15 involved in these killings it should be -- the killing took place in
16 sometime in July also of 1995. And there is one document which one of
17 the witnesses the OTP interviewed confirmed, and this document is from 20
18 of July, and this witness confirmed that based on this document, the
19 Skorpion unit was pulled back from the Trnovo area so they were not there
20 any more. So this incident, based on this fact, should take place
21 between 12th and 20th July, 1995.
22 Q. Thank you. As this is very important, because of the individuals
23 who are being charged with this, to know the exact time, place, and
24 manner, do you have any other information about any other participants in
25 the event apart from those who have been convicted? Any other members
1 from the Army of Republika Srpska or any other members who participated
2 in their arrest, in their taking to that location, in their killing?
3 Thank you.
4 A. No. We -- so far we don't have any additional information.
5 Q. Thank you. You said a while ago that one witness testified in
6 this case. I do not remember any of the witnesses to the murder having
7 testified in this case. Can you jog my memory, please?
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I recall correctly, the witness said one
9 person will testify in this trial.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I can confirm I was referring to
11 the witnesses who is coming, still coming to testify here, so he will
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I would appreciate it very much if you told us whether you
16 investigated what role this group had in Trnovo apart from that killing.
17 Did they participate in any combat action? Is there any reference to
18 them or to any of them in any of the combat reports of the time? I'm
19 talking about their combat activities in the Trnovo sector.
20 A. Yes, they were involved in combat activities in this Trnovo area,
21 Trnovo battlefield as they called it at the time. And they were
22 supporting the VRS and Republika Srpska MUP units in that area at the
23 time. So -- and basically that's why they came or they were deployed to
24 this area in early or late June of 1995, and one of -- I haven't seen any
25 of their reports. I would -- I mean the Skorpion unit report I haven't
1 seen any of those reports, but what we can see and we have seen also here
2 in this courtroom is, for example, the report from Ljubisa Borovcanin on
3 1st of July when he's reporting that there are combat activities which
4 are performed together with these units.
5 Q. Thank you. Please, is this document 1D288 that you're referring
6 to? And could we please have it brought up in e-court, if it is indeed
7 the one that you are referring to? It is Borovcanin, is consolidated
8 report on activities from the 12th to the 20th. Is that the one you are
9 talking about? Thank you.
10 A. No. In this case I was referring to the one from 1st of July,
12 Q. Thank you. We shall call that document from the 1st of July,
13 1995. It is document P1025, if that is the one you mean.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Can we have P1025 brought up on the
15 screen, please? Thank you.
16 Q. We now have that document in front of us. Can you tell us where
17 there is reference here to their activities and to their participation in
19 A. It's within the first paragraph, that's how I see this first
20 paragraph, that they were deployed there and that they were engaged in
21 these activities, in this Trnovo battlefield.
22 Q. So they were in the Trnovo area. Does the OTP have a document
23 showing their presence in the Srebrenica area?
24 A. No. The OTP does not have any document, and the OTP does not
25 have any information that this unit was ever in Srebrenica at that time,
1 so based on information the OTP obtained during the investigation,
2 regardless of the order we have seen from -- and it is from 10th of July,
3 regardless of this order, Tomo Kovac's order, they were never -- they
4 never came to Srebrenica.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In order to have it clear on the record, you are
6 referring to the Skorpions when you say this unit was never in
7 Srebrenica; is that correct?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
10 Mr. Tolimir.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Presiding Judge.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. Please tell us now whether the OTP or you
14 yourself have perhaps obtained information that members of the Skorpions
15 group perhaps had found somewhere in the area these men that they
17 A. No. The OTP does not have any such information.
18 Q. Thank you. Does the OTP have any information regarding the very
19 first encounter between the Skorpions and these persons whom they
20 executed? How did they come across them?
21 A. According to information we have, they first came in contact with
22 them on the day -- on the morning when they were killed, so, and based on
23 what I testified before, that should be sometimes between 12 and 20 of
24 July 1995.
25 Q. Thank you. Did the OTP investigate whether perhaps these persons
1 were attempting to reach Sarajevo via Trnovo and then were arrested en
2 route there?
3 A. It's a quite long route around, and based on the knowledge and
4 information in the possession of the OTP, most of the individuals, most
5 of the Muslim men who left Srebrenica after the -- after its fall, was
6 heading north towards Tuzla. Some of them also south towards Zepa. And
7 these are the main routes which they took, and because of the statement
8 of one of the relatives of those killed men, those men left Srebrenica
9 and were heading north towards Zvornik. So it would be quite illogical
10 that they would make such a big turn down to south, to Trnovo. So that's
11 why Prosecution -- it's Prosecution's position, and of course I share
12 this position with the Prosecution, that they should be captured
13 somewhere close to Srebrenica, and indeed transported down to south.
14 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the OTP introduced a document in
15 this case showing that some of the people went to Serbia, some to Zepa,
16 and yet others to Gorazde, in attempting to break through, and that the
17 shortest route from Gorazde to Sarajevo is via Trnovo? Could it then
18 mean that perhaps they had been arrested in Trnovo, given the fact that
19 the exact location is not known and that the actual people who arrested
20 them are not known? So if you have investigated anything along those
21 lines, would you please share that information with us? Thank you.
22 A. Yes, indeed you're right. Some people, and I didn't say about
23 that, tried to -- and crossed the border, actually the Drina River and
24 went into Serbia and were captured there, and then some of them returned
25 back to RS, so indeed that was the case that some of them left Srebrenica
1 also toward west. And when I said towards south, I meant towards Zepa
2 and from Zepa then of course towards Gorazde. So these were the cases,
3 yes, and the Prosecution is aware of those cases which were going south,
4 but is not aware of any case to go that south or to go towards Sarajevo.
5 So I would say towards Tuzla, towards Serbia, towards Zepa and Gorazde,
6 towards Kladanj, these are the main routes where the people went.
7 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the exact location of their arrest
8 and by whom remains a secret to this day. Has the OTP investigated why
9 this is still shrouded in secrecy and are there any special reasons
10 underlying that situation? Perhaps I was not clear in asking this
11 question. I can rephrase it and put it more briefly.
12 A. I think I understand it but if you can rephrase it will be
13 perhaps a little bit easier for me to respond.
14 Q. Has the OTP conducted any investigations to establish why the
15 location and the time of the arrest and execution of these persons still
16 remains a secret and why were these persons executed so far from
17 Srebrenica, at a site so far from Srebrenica, and so near on the route to
19 A. Yes. The investigation was -- was conducted, and we wanted to
20 get as many information as possible, and I will repeat myself once more.
21 We wanted to get as much as possible, and as far as we can, but I can
22 just repeat once more what -- what kind of information we have, how far
23 we came, and my answer will be the same, how -- what kind of information
24 the OTP has, I think I was quite clear already during my testimony. But
25 no further investigation has been done regarding other issues, and that's
2 Q. Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Mindua wants to put a question.
4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Tolimir. I apologise.
5 Witness, I would like to return to the question put to you by
6 Mr. Tolimir on page 28, line 4 of this transcript. He was asking what
7 was the distance between Srebrenica and Trnovo. Trnovo is the place
8 where these people were executed. So could you tell us what the distance
9 is between Trnovo and Srebrenica?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. It's -- and this is a rough
11 estimation, of about 200 kilometres.
12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Has the OTP investigated whether the killed people had ever been
17 the subject of an exchange by their killers, as they were in touch with
18 the opposite side, with the adversary side, in order to exchange them for
19 whom they wanted from that side?
20 A. Based on information the OTP obtained during the investigation,
21 they were just brought to this area one morning and, soon after, they
22 were executed. So there is no information they were ever considered to
23 be exchanged.
24 Q. Thank you. As it is the OTP's estimation that it was on the
25 18th, the day on which they were brought and killed, were there any
1 people captured on the 18th on locations around Srebrenica? Thank you.
2 A. I think I didn't say on the date of 18th any time during my
3 testimony. What I said was that they were most probably killed between
4 12th and 20th of July. When exactly they were captured and when exactly
5 which date was that they were killed is not known to the OTP.
6 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you this in order for us to see whether
7 they had been held somewhere up to the point and moment of their
8 execution or had been brought from a place which is even farther away
9 from Srebrenica, because if you know in locations around Srebrenica and
10 in Srebrenica itself, up to the 20th, there had been no captives, no
11 people taken prisoner.
12 A. There were people, so this is not actually -- this is not true
13 that people were not kept around Srebrenica between these dates. We know
14 that they were kept there and in the area in Bratunac, Kravica, and Nova
15 Kasaba. Most of them during the 13th of July, 12th and 13th of July, but
16 some of them even later, especially in Bratunac. So -- but if we go back
17 to these particular six individuals, since we don't know when exactly
18 they were captured, so we can't say exactly what happened to them when
19 they were -- after they were captured actually, so and if they were
20 transported down to Trnovo on that same day, few days after that, so a
21 lot of information is missing here, I agree with you, and I would like to
22 have more information on this case, these individuals, so as I told you
23 I tried to obtain, to search for more information on them but I was not
24 able to find any. So that's why we cannot be that exact, and exclude the
25 possibility that they were kept somewhere, because we simply don't know
1 when and where exactly they were captured.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. I know that the OTP has presented
3 information here about the place and time of execution so it can be seen
4 that it was before the 20th. What I should like to know now is this: In
5 your previous testimony, you said that there exists a witness who saw
6 people being brought on buses from Srebrenica to Trnovo and taken from
7 Trnovo back to Srebrenica. Do you recall that?
8 A. Maybe you didn't understand or maybe it was misinterpretation.
9 What I said is that these people were brought down from Srebrenica, from
10 the area, wider area of Srebrenica to Trnovo, and when you asked me
11 regarding where additional people might be since they were -- if there is
12 information that they were brought by buses, so we assumed that many more
13 would be transport down there, where those would be. And I replied to
14 this question that we simply don't know, they might be somewhere around
15 Trnovo, killed and buried and we don't know yet where, or they might
16 be -- it's also possible -- transported back to the Srebrenica area.
17 That was my response, I think, to your question, but I didn't say that we
18 know that they were indeed transported back to Sarajevo -- to Srebrenica.
19 Q. Thank you. I apologise to you, but as this is a public trial,
20 and as we all understand, we can appreciate that those who have lost
21 their families would like to know that location, that is why I ask you
22 whether there exists a witness who had seen them, because you did refer
23 to a witness who saw them in your previous testimony, how they were
24 coming there with their heads down, so I'm talking about that witness.
25 I'm just asking you whether that is -- that faithfully reflects what you
1 said in your previous testimony, nothing more.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, are you able to give a reference?
3 In my recollection I don't know if the witness said that, it would be
4 helpful for the witness and the Chamber to find that portion in the
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. My legal adviser should
7 try to find it. I asked if you remember whether that means that some
8 would be found there, and the witness said yes, some of the killed might
9 be found there. And what I want us not to do is not to send any wrong
10 information from this trial to the public. My legal adviser will try to
11 find that reference.
12 THE WITNESS: I may reply to you in this way. So, yes, we have
13 this witness statement who told us that these people were brought to
14 Trnovo. In relation to others, which might be brought down there and
15 killed, we actually -- we simply don't know this information -- this
16 witness did not provide us any additional information of any additional
17 killings by the members of their units, so we don't know if any
18 additional individuals were killed in that area, and subsequently buried,
19 or just left on the ground like all the others, and since we don't have
20 any additional exhumations carried out in this area, we don't -- we
21 cannot confirm any of the facts.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic?
23 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the transcript
24 reference is 7037, page number 7037, and the date is 29 October. As well
25 as the previous page, I believe, but I need to check that.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Perhaps it's possible to have that
2 part on the screen. It will take a moment.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Thank
4 you, Mr. Janc, for being really clear in his answer. I will give him
5 another opportunity to repeat that for the general public, since we are
6 in open trial.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, are you sure that this number is
9 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise. I didn't
10 check whether it has been recorded properly, 7037. [In English] 7037.
11 Here is Mr. Tolimir's question and then an answer about the
12 buses. For example, it says, the -- [In English] "The OTP tried to
13 obtain -- to obtain more corroborating statements in relation to the same
14 issue," [Interpretation] and so on and so forth.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, to which line you were referring?
16 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] 7037 is the page number, and
17 Mr. Tolimir's question features on lines from 3 through 6, and the
18 witness's answer is on lines 7 through 17, and so on. And I believe that
19 we have precisely that on the screen now.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, we succeeded and perhaps we can -- the
21 witness is able to read that part.
22 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Your Honour, but I don't have it on the
23 screen. So maybe I need to switch.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The court usher will assist you.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, if I may?
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: And maybe it's just me, but I seem to have lost
4 complete track of the question that Mr. Tolimir has put to the witness.
5 I believe that it started out with the suggestion that the made had made
6 a certain representation with respect to where these individuals that
7 were -- or other individuals may have been killed. I don't see that in
8 the transcript that is now on the screen. The only reference to that
9 that appears to be close to the question, as I recall it, is an answer
10 that the witness gave saying that the question was speculative and his
11 answer was effectively speculation. And I don't see that that is -- if
12 that's the reference that General Tolimir is going to, I just don't see
13 how that is at all helpful to any material issue or any issue, frankly,
14 before the Tribunal.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I note the witness has read this
16 part in the meantime and now you should put the relevant question to this
17 part, to the witness.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Since
19 I don't speak English, and I can only remember what the witness said a
20 few days ago.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. My question is this. The witness who provided information to the
23 OTP about Trnovo and the arrival of buses, did he observe that from a
24 location in Trnovo or a location in Sarajevo? And was that witness
25 familiar with both locations? Thank you.
1 A. The witness who provided it, he observed that from Trnovo.
2 Q. Thank you. So how could he then know that the buses travelled
3 from Sarajevo to Trnovo and back, and that that was repeated several
4 times? I believe that's what the witness said. I'm sorry, I said
5 Sarajevo instead of Srebrenica. The route was Srebrenica-Trnovo and
6 back. Thank you, Aleksandar, for correcting me.
7 A. This one was a member of the Skorpions unit, and this was known
8 to him, being a member of this unit, and that's how he came across of
9 this information. That's what he told us.
10 Q. Thank you. Was the OTP able to corroborate his words through any
11 other witness, through any other piece of evidence? I don't speak
12 English. I'm just allowing you to comment upon all that, and don't think
13 that you can do me any harm by putting your comments forth. Thank you.
14 A. The other individuals which were identified and interviewed by
15 the OTP were reluctant to say where these individuals came from. So this
16 is one of the individuals who told us how they were brought down there to
17 Trnovo area.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we are running out of time. We must
19 have our first break. But before we do that, I will have to correct
20 myself. I was recorded on page 7, line 11, to have said, exhibits P1150
21 and P1153. The correct reading should be P1150 through P1153. That
22 means the exhibits P1150, 51, 52, and 53. Just for the record.
23 We break now and resume 20 minutes past 4.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 3.53 p.m.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Tolimir. Please continue.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Janc, we were talking about the so-called witness who
7 allegedly saw the comings and goings and I would not belabour the point
8 any further. I would just like to say that that witness belonged to the
9 circle of those who participated in the killings of the six men, or,
10 rather, I would like to ask you whether he belonged to that circle.
11 Thank you.
12 A. He was the member of the Skorpions unit but he was -- he did not
13 participate in the killing.
14 Q. Thank you. Was his statement credible in respect of other facts
15 that he presented during his testimony? Did you investigate that? Thank
17 A. If you talk about the statement as a whole, I think it is
18 credible, yes, and also the fact regarding this particular information
19 of -- in relation to the killings of these six men, I think it is
20 credible, yes.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question.
22 JUDGE NYAMBE: At page 35, just now you have said in answer to
23 General Tolimir's question, whether the person was a member -- sorry, let
24 me go back.
25 Whether he belonged to that circle, meaning the circle of the
1 Skorpions, and your answer was he was a member of the Skorpions unit but
2 he did not participate in the killing. How do you know that?
3 THE WITNESS: According to his statement but not only his
4 statement, according to the statements of the others, and the problem is
5 now because maybe we go into private session, I can tell you more.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We turn into private session.
7 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'm not
3 going to mention the person that has just been mentioned, but I'm going
4 to have a question about the situation since that individual was not a
5 participant in the killings.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Was that person in the location when the killings were taking
9 A. No, he was not at that location, at the spot where the killings
10 took place, no. He was not there.
11 Q. Thank you. Was he in that village where his unit was? Thank
13 A. Yes. I think he was there, yes, according to his statement, he
14 was there.
15 Q. Thank you. Did he know that the video recording was
16 commissioned? I suppose he must have known, hence the loaning of the
17 camera. Thank you.
18 A. He learned about this incident and that the incident was filmed
19 later on, when the whole unit returned back to Croatia and when the
20 camera was returned back to him, when he found the actual tape inside
21 this camera.
22 Q. Thank you. Is it possible that those who perpetrated the crime
23 by killing the six Muslims in Trnovo hid it from the rest of the group?
24 Is it possible that they had been given a task to record all that on a
25 camera? Thank you.
1 A. Yes. As it was established, you know, they had made this filming
2 on purpose, so they were aware of it and they wanted to do it and that's
3 what it was done, so -- yes.
4 Q. Does this mean that the entire group did not hide from each other
5 what they had done, that they did it openly and that they recorded it to
6 meet the requirements of those that they had filmed it for?
7 A. I don't think they have made it openly because after they
8 returned back to Croatia, indeed, several copies of this tape has been
9 made and distributed throughout the members, and later on, the leader of
10 this unit wanted all these tapes to be returned back so the -- but when
11 I mean later on, you know, a few years after this event, and they wanted
12 to destroy everything. And according to information the OTP has they
13 have destroyed many of them but not all of them, and when I say that they
14 had not made it public, that's why the OTP got possession of this tape
15 only in 2004, which is nine years after the actual incident took place.
16 So we can't say it was publicly known, so it was -- this incident
17 and -- the existence of the tape itself was known to the limited number
18 of the people, and that's why, in my opinion, it was not publicly known
19 that this was -- this was done. So it was just for the benefits of
20 the -- this certain unit, of the members of the unit, and their close
21 circle, and that's it.
22 Q. You said that there were ten copies and that they made those
23 copies and took them to Croatia. Did you investigate who the recipients
24 of those copies were? And if you did, could you please tell us is it
25 possible that perhaps one of the recipients of those copies was the
1 original order issuer?
2 A. I think I didn't say there were ten copies but several copies.
3 So I don't know the exact number of how many copies. And recipients of
4 these copies were basically the members of the Skorpions unit who were
5 involved in this incident, and most of them, and again I'm talking about
6 the statements which the people gave to the OTP, according to these
7 statements, most of the tapes were indeed returned back to the head of
8 this unit, and most probably destroyed. But not all of them, because if
9 all of them would be returned back, the OTP would never get one of these
10 copies, and according to the source from whom the OTP obtained this copy,
11 this is the original tape which was -- copy of the original tape which
12 was inside the camera.
13 Q. Did you try to establish whether, besides the participants in the
14 events, anybody else received one of the tapes, and if they did, would
15 they perhaps be on the list of the individuals who had ordered the
16 killings? Thank you.
17 A. Yes. The OTP tried to obtain also this information, but I think
18 we don't have an information on who exactly received these tapes. So we
19 know that some of the members of this unit received them. If any of the
20 individuals who ordered this execution received them as well, that's what
21 the Prosecution does not know.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you investigate whether anybody had the recording
23 in their possession, if they had not participated in the incident, and if
24 that was the case, could that perhaps be the trail to the order issuer?
25 Thank you.
1 A. Yes, of course, the OTP endeavoured to obtain at least one
2 additional copy or information who still have this additional copy of the
3 tape. Just to be able to corroborate the other tape which we obtained
4 from this source, meaning that, you know, that we indeed have everything
5 what was filmed at that time, so we've never obtained any additional copy
6 of this same video. This is the only one we have. And the same we don't
7 have any information who might be having additional copies of this tape.
8 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you this because in your statement, in
9 paragraph 3, you say:
10 "The copies of that film were subsequently cut in sheet."
11 My question is this: Were copies made for each member or were
12 the recipients of the copies hand-picked? Thank you.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, can you tell us which statement of
14 the witness you mean?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't mean statement. I meant
16 document P1023, page 2, line 3, or, rather, second page, third paragraph,
17 line 6. Thank you. Thank you. We can now see that on the first page.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Paragraph 3, line 6, it is stated copies of that film were
20 subsequently made in Sid. That is the previous page in English. The
21 third paragraph. Can we see the previous page, please revert to the
22 previous page in English. Paragraph 3. Thank you. In line 6, it reads:
23 "Copies" --
24 My question is: Does the OTP have an accurate list of persons
25 who were made available a copy of this film?
1 A. No. I don't think the OTP has the exact list of the recipients
2 of these copies. We for sure have some names, but this is based on the
3 statement of the provider of this video to the OTP.
4 Q. Thank you. Did anyone of the participants who have been
5 convicted by national courts, had any of them been in any sort of contact
6 or touch or liaised in any way, by telephone or otherwise, with members
7 of the General Staff?
8 A. You mean General Staff of the VRS? If you mean that, we don't
9 have -- I mean the OTP does not have any such information.
10 Q. Thank you. Did the Medici -- did Medic's immediate superiors, on
11 their part, have any contact with the people who were convicted for
12 events in Srebrenica?
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure she heard the
14 question correctly. Could the accused kindly repeat the question?
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I've been asked to repeat the question. Did anyone of the
17 immediate superiors of Medic and the participants in this crime, has the
18 OTP registered any contacts between those persons with any people from
19 the General Staff or any of those who participated in the events in
20 Srebrenica who have stood trial before this Court?
21 A. No. The OTP does not have any such information. They have been
22 liaisoning through their superior with the minister -- or Deputy Minister
23 of Interior, at that time, which was Tomo Kovac. He has been in contact
24 with them. And according to information, I mean, his statement also,
25 with some members of the government of the Republika Srpska at the time.
1 Q. Thank you. Do you have information whether at that time anyone
2 of their superiors, conditionally speaking, had had any contacts with me
3 as the accused here, either personally or via telephone?
4 A. Currently, the OTP does not have any such information.
5 Q. Thank you. Does the OTP know whether any one of the participants
6 in the event or any of their superior, whether immediate or otherwise,
7 had come to Zepa during the relevant time when you indicated the events
9 A. The same as before, the OTP does not have any such information.
10 Q. Thank you. [Microphone not activated]
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, microphone. Microphone.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone is off.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Have you investigated what exact level in the chain of
15 superiority issued the order for the execution to be filmed? The exact
16 chain of command hierarchical level.
17 A. I think I've answered this question several times already
18 throughout my testimony. So I explained how far the Prosecution got with
19 the investigation, so we know that -- who executed these killings and no,
20 we don't have any information on the superior level of the -- of this
21 incident. So I can't say anything more than I already told during my
23 Q. Thank you. Can you please just tell us this: Are there any
24 records about the routes via which the executed came to Trnovo? Is that
25 something that is known?
1 A. No. There is no such records on it, and basically due to the
2 fact that we don't even know where exactly they were captured and then
3 picked up and brought down to the Trnovo area, so the Prosecution does
4 not have this information.
5 Q. Thank you. Please tell us this: As the investigator, did you
6 unequivocally or without any doubt obtain data and information that the
7 actual shooting of -- filming of this event had been actually ordered by
9 A. No. We have no such evidence.
10 Q. And those two participants who said that they had to film it, who
11 were looking for a battery, had they been tasked with making that film?
12 A. Yes. According to their statements, they were tasked to do this,
14 Q. Does this actually indicate the fact that prior -- prior to the
15 killings, someone had issued an order for the execution?
16 A. Yes, that's possible.
17 Q. Thank you Mr. Janc, for sharing with us your information. After
18 having perused all these materials. This concludes my questioning.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this concludes my
20 cross-examination as regards this part of Mr. Janc's testimony. I thank
21 on behalf of the Defence, all the participants in this case, for helping
22 us to understand one another, and I should also like to thank the Trial
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
25 Are there other -- at the moment, not informed about the
1 situation. Are there other parts of the examination-in-chief, when
2 Mr. Janc testified, you intend to cross-examine the witness?
3 Mr. Vanderpuye, can you help us?
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think so, Mr. President. As you may recall,
5 Mr. Janc also testified with respect to exhumations and the number of
6 bodies that were recovered, association between mass graves, primary and
7 secondary graves, et cetera, and I think that is what General Tolimir is
8 referring to when he says -- when he is saying -- when he refers to this
9 part of his cross-examination as opposed to the other parts of Mr. Janc's
10 direct examination, which don't involve -- which, rather, involve the
11 provenance and authenticity of the video footage that we offered into
12 evidence prior to this part of the cross-examination.
13 I should point out, though, that I do have some redirect
14 examination, and with the court's permission, assuming that I've
15 addressed Mr. Tolimir's position correctly, I'd like to proceed with it.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would first like to know what is the situation,
17 and how do you -- how are your plans to cross-examine the witness?
18 Mr. Gajic, you can help us.
19 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, of course, this
20 witness will appear again here to be cross-examined in connection with
21 his report on DNA analysis, exhumations, and similar issues. We have
22 already pointed out to the Trial Chamber that we have agreed with the OTP
23 that that portion of the cross-examination shall be conducted after we
24 have heard expert witnesses of the OTP who will also testify on
25 exhumations, DNA analysis, anthropological analysis, et cetera. After we
1 hear those witnesses, we shall proceed with our cross-examination of
2 Mr. Janc on that subject. As regards this cross-examination, it focused
3 only on the last portion of the statement given by Mr. Janc in the
4 examination-in-chief. Precisely on those topics which Mr. Vanderpuye
5 referred to.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for this update, or
7 information respectively, or reminder respectively.
8 Mr. Vanderpuye, your re-examination.
9 One moment, please.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, the Chamber tried to figure out
12 at which stage of the testimony of this witness we are currently, and
13 I think the topic of this video, of the killing of the six Muslim men,
14 that was part of your examination-in-chief and of the cross-examination,
15 and now you are going to re-examine the witness on this topic solely; is
16 that correct?
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And are there -- can you tell us about the
19 situation with the other parts, like DNA analysis and mass graves? At
20 the moment, we are a little bit lost. Are we still in the part of
21 examination-in-chief or in the cross-examination of the witness to that
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's a very fair question, Mr. President.
24 I think, and my recollection is not always right, as you know, but
25 I think that with respect to the DNA -- with the report of Mr. Janc, we
1 had begun cross-examination on that specific issue. I can't remember how
2 it was that it was interrupted but it was, and subsequently I believe we
3 reached an understanding with the Defence about when they would resume
4 the cross-examination. Okay. I'm -- I understand that Mr. Tolimir has
5 gone three hours and 35 minutes into that cross-examination on that
6 issue, the DNA, exhumation-related issues, that Mr. Janc first testified
7 about. For whatever reason it was interrupted either by another witness
8 or some circumstance and after that we reached an understanding with the
9 Defence that he would resume this cross-examination after additional
10 evidence had been received by the Trial Chamber concerning DNA,
11 exhumation, demographic data, and that they would resume the
12 cross-examination following that evidence.
13 In the interim, we were presented with an opportunity to provide
14 additional information to the Trial Chamber concerning the provenance of
15 the videotape, authenticity of that material which we took advantage of,
16 and then we presented direct testimony from Mr. Janc. So -- which
17 Mr. Tolimir has now cross-examined on. So we have one completed aspect
18 of cross-examination on a discrete issue, one incomplete
19 cross-examination on a separate issue, and now I'm poised to conduct a
20 redirect examination.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. If Mr. Gajic could agree to
22 that, the Chamber could be inclined to believe you.
23 Mr. Gajic.
24 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, that was a fair
25 representation of the entire situation by my learned friend,
1 Mr. Vanderpuye.
2 With regard to Mr. Janc's report about DNA analysis and
3 exhumations, I can't remember exactly what the title of his report is.
4 The reason why the Defence wanted to examine the witness only after we
5 hear the other witnesses is the fact that his DNA report encompasses data
6 from other reports by other experts, and OTP investigators, especially
7 Mr. Dean Manning, who was the main investigator on behalf of the OTP
8 before Mr. Janc took over. That was one of the reasons why we insisted
9 on hearing those witnesses first, and then on continuing our
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe.
12 JUDGE NYAMBE: I just wanted to concede that I am confused as to
13 whether this witness has even finished his evidence in-chief and when he
14 has been cross-examined, and I was wondering whether, I'm open really,
15 whether it might not be better for the Prosecution to re-examine this
16 witness after he has finished all the cross-examination that is
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic first.
19 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that we can
20 simplify things. Mr. Janc is testifying about several topics. In
21 Mr. Janc we have several witnesses in one person, to put it that way, and
22 I believe the entire series of his evidence about different issues,
23 including the maps, the DNA analysis, and the authentication of video
24 clips can be seen in that way.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye?
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think it's a fair
2 question, whether or not Mr. Janc should be re-examined in respect of the
3 totality of his testimony once it's actually concluded. And I think the
4 response really is that we are in a position, I think now, to take care
5 of at least one open issue with respect to his testimony, and I think
6 wrap it up for good, and hopefully we will be able to do the same as time
7 permits, and as the opportunities arise, with respect to the scheduling
8 and other constraints in the proceedings. So that's really, I think, why
9 we prefer to do it in this manner.
10 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. I think you may
11 proceed as you proposed.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, the Chamber is of the view that you
13 should commence now your re-examination on this topic.
14 Mr. Vanderpuye.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
16 Ms. Stewart has already reminded me that Mr. Janc also testified
17 about the maps and he was cross-examined to conclusion on that issue as
18 well. Thank you, very much, Mr. President. I'll proceed.
19 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
20 Q. Mr. Janc, I'm only going to redirect you, I think, on a couple of
21 issues. If you recall you were shown --
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: And I'll need 65 ter 5344 in e-court, please.
23 Q. During your cross-examination you were shown this document, which
24 is signed by Ljubisa Borovcanin, as you recall, the deputy commander of
25 the RS MUP Special Police Brigade?
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please provide us with the P number.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry, it does have a P number. It was a
3 Defence Exhibit, I think. D130.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was my mistake. It is not an exhibit with a
5 P number nor with a D number.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's not your mistake, Mr. President. He was
7 shown -- this is a separate document but it's the same substance as the
8 one he was shown is what the issue is. I think we can proceed with this
9 one, substantively it should be the same.
10 Q. If you recall, you were asked whether or not this particular
11 document contained any references to the Serbian MUP and that was at
12 transcript page 7055, lines 6 through 9, and again lines 20 through 22.
13 Do you remember looking at this particular document or substantively what
14 this document shows and being asked those questions, Mr. Janc?
15 A. Yes, I do remember that, yes.
16 Q. And you were also --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic?
18 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I should just like to ask that we
19 also see the page in the Serbian language before the witness gives his
20 answer, please.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: I apologise. I think it would be the next page
22 in the B/C/S. The reference I've made is to the first paragraph, as
23 you'll recall from the cross-examination. In particular, it reads,
24 "I was sent there with some MUP forces to participate in the Srebrenica
25 95 operation," and refers to an order that specified that the MUP combat
1 group would comprise 2nd Special Police Detachment from Sekovici, the 1st
2 Company of the Zvornik PJP, Special Police Unit, two companies of the
3 joints forces of the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and a MUP
4 company from the training centre on Jahorina. Do you remember being
5 asked about that during your cross-examination?
6 A. Yes, I do remember that, yes.
7 Q. And in particular, it related to order number 64/95, which was
8 the 10 July 1995 order that you testified on your direct examination. Do
9 you remember that?
10 A. Yes, I do remember that.
11 Q. For the record, that's D129. And you were asked a number of
12 questions by General Tolimir about whether or not this document in
13 particular contained any reference to the MUP from the Republic of
14 Serbia. Do you remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And was it -- is it your recollection that it does not contain
17 such a reference?
18 A. Yes. As I went through the text, page by page, I skimmed the
19 text and I haven't noticed any such reference.
20 Q. Now, this document in particular was apparently drafted by
21 Ljubisa Borovcanin, as I've indicated before, who was the recipient of
22 the order of 10 July 1995; is that fair?
23 A. Yes, that's fair.
24 Q. And to your knowledge, does this report contain complete and
25 accurate information concerning the events that it recounts, which
1 occurred, in particular, on the 12th of July through, I believe it was,
2 the 20th of July?
3 A. No. It's not complete.
4 Q. I'd like to show you in particular page number 3, and I think it
5 should also be page number 3 in the B/C/S. And I just want to focus you,
6 if I could, on what Mr. Borovcanin writes in this report concerning the
7 13 July. As you can see in the translation it indicates 13 July 1993,
8 but in the original, you can see that it refers to 13 July 1995. So that
9 appears to be a typographical error in the English translation.
10 Nevertheless, we can see what Mr. Borovcanin reports for that
11 particular day, which is that the situation is getting more complex
12 because of the advance of Muslim formation who had managed to break
13 through towards Cerska, the 5th Company of the Zvornik PJP and the 2nd
14 MUP Company from the training centre at Jahorina were also engaged. He
15 says traffic was stopped on the Zvornik-Han Pijesak report, and then
16 forces of the Army of Republika Srpska mostly regrouped in order to go to
17 Zepa. One member of the Skelani Platoon of the 2nd Special Police
18 Detachment was killed in the fighting with the enemy.
19 Based on what he's written here, does this account for the
20 actions, either his or his unit's in totality, for 13 July 1995?
21 A. Not at all.
22 Q. Based on your understanding of those events and the investigation
23 carried out by the Prosecution, can you tell us in the briefest terms
24 what's missing from this report concerning Mr. Borovcanin's conduct and
25 the conduct of his units which he purports to be reporting about in this
2 A. Yes. You have seen during this trial already the video from the
3 road, Bratunac-Konjevic Polje. There were a lot of members of the MUP or
4 PJP members and members of the Jahorina training centre involved in
5 different activities, and most probably also noticed that many Muslim men
6 or individuals have surrendered to the members of the MUP along this
7 road. And none of this information is written here. And in addition,
8 what is even most important, on the evening on 13 of July, there was a
9 mass execution which took place at Kravica warehouse where the members of
10 the 2nd Special Police Detachment were involved, and also Mr. Borovcanin
11 was passing by with the journalist with his camera, this execution site,
12 and what he only mentioned here is that one member of their -- of this
13 2nd Special Police Detachment was killed, and he was having in mind a
14 special -- this individual who was killed at Kravica warehouse during the
15 execution. This is the most important part of the day for sure, and he
16 totally omitted this incident.
17 Q. Does it surprise you given the nature and extent of the
18 involvement of Mr. Borovcanin's unit, as the investigation has revealed,
19 in relation to the crimes that were committed, in particular, the
20 execution that was committed at the Kravica warehouse, in addition to the
21 detentions at Sandici and the treatment of Muslim prisoners by his units,
22 does it surprise you that that is not included in this particular report?
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the events in
25 Kravica discussed by Mr. Vanderpuye were not a topic of either the
1 cross-examination or the examination-in-chief. Our topic here were the
2 Skorpions and the film depicting the Skorpions. If Mr. Vanderpuye wants
3 to put questions about Kravica, then I would kindly ask to you give me a
4 time for additional questions about that topic because that topic was not
5 raised either during the examination-in-chief or during the
6 cross-examination of this witness. Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, could you explain your position?
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Sure. What I'm
9 raising -- I actually don't know whether it should be within the hearing
10 of the witness. I suppose it's okay. What I'm raising essentially has
11 to do with the cross-examination by General Tolimir with this particular
12 document and the suggestion that the fact that this document does not
13 contain a reference to Serbian MUP or their involvement with either
14 Mr. Borovcanin's units or elements of the VRS, is somehow an omission
15 that speaks to the issue by demonstrating that this document in
16 particular doesn't -- is not a complete or accurate document concerning
17 the involvement of Mr. Borovcanin or Mr. Borovcanin's units as he reports
18 it in this instrument. What General Tolimir essentially did with this
19 witness is tried to imply that because a reference to the Serbian MUP is
20 not here, that perhaps the July 10th order where it is explicitly stated
21 is either inaccurate or incorrect based upon the strength of this
22 document. I'm simply establishing that this document is not one to be
23 relied on, not only for that proposition but for most other propositions
24 that it contains in terms of its completeness and accuracy.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
1 Mr. Tolimir.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The only
3 point in common that I heard in the additional questions was the term
4 "Serbian MUP." He can talk about that, but not about any other events.
5 Allow me, then, to put questions about those other events as well. The
6 witness has testified only about the Skorpion movie. He didn't say
7 anything about the terrorists in Srebrenica or anything else. Thank you.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Specifically, Mr. President, the witness was
9 asked by General Tolimir with respect to this document, which is the
10 document I'm using:
11 "Is there any reference to MUP of Serbia in this order -- in this
13 This is at page 7055. The answer was:
14 "No, I don't see it right now. I don't think there is a
15 reference in it."
16 Later on, at line 20 on the same page, he says:
17 "Is there a reference anywhere to the MUP of Serbia on the second
18 page of Borovcanin's report?"
19 And the answer was:
20 "No, I don't see any."
21 And then he was asked, the ultimate -- he was asked again -- he
22 was asked -- he asked:
23 "Since you've studied this document," this is at page 7056, "and
24 in chronological terms it describes the events that took place on the
25 10th and then on the 11th and then in the penultimate passage it
1 describes the events on the 12th of July 1995, and then the penultimate
2 passage on the third page it describes the events on the 13th of July,
3 and finally the events on the 15th -- on the 16th, 15th, and 14th and
4 then on the 17th, 18th, and 19th, and 20th of July, on the fifth page of
5 this document, my question is this: You speak the language, you studied
6 the document, does Commander Borovcanin refer anywhere in the document to
7 the presence of Skorpions?"
8 Implicit in his line of questioning is that this document
9 accounts for what Mr. Borovcanin was doing in its totality because if
10 it's not there, the implicit argument is that if it's true that Serbian
11 MUP had any involvement with Mr. Borovcanin, it should be in this
12 document. My line of questioning only establishes that even if it should
13 be in the document, it may not be in the document for other reasons. For
14 example, on the 13th of July, the Kravica warehouse is no where
15 mentioned. On the 13th of July the Sandici meadow is no where mentioned.
16 On the 13th of July, the basis -- the reason why his subordinate was
17 killed is no where mentioned. So it should come as no surprise to
18 anybody that the references contained in this report don't necessarily
19 correspond to the order which explicitly mentions Serbian MUP, which was
20 his entire line of cross-examination.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 I emphasise yet once again the emphasis was on the term "Serbian MUP,"
24 and my question was whether there was the term anywhere. In the question
25 put to the witness by Mr. Vanderpuye, he doesn't mention the Serbian MUP.
1 I'm asking him again whether the Skorpions participated on that and the
2 witness said it very loud and clear during his testimony that the
3 Skorpions were not in Srebrenica. Is the Prosecutor challenging the
4 credibility both of this witness and his testimony in today's trial?
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Well, I think that goes without saying. I'm not
7 challenging the credibility of the witness. I'm challenging the
8 reliability of the document, particularly as was -- as was suggested
9 during the cross-examination by General Tolimir in his use of the
10 document to challenge the veracity, the reliability, and the accuracy of
11 the 10 July order -- 10 July 1995 order, which specifically references
12 the Serbian MUP as a composite, subordinate element to the same author,
13 to Ljubisa Borovcanin, and that's the reason why I've raised and I've
14 attacked the completeness and the accuracy of this document, because it
15 speaks to the completeness and the accuracy with which he, Borovcanin,
16 reports A, the nature of the order that he received on the 10th of July,
17 in addition to other events. And what I've explored right now with the
18 witness are those other key events that if this report is to be taken as
19 complete and accurate, ought to be here and clearly are not.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: So the Chamber has considered your positions,
23 from the whole cross-examination, we can take it that Mr. Tolimir indeed
24 raised this document and the validity of this document and reliability,
25 but he didn't mention the events in Kravica warehouse and Sandici meadow
1 or somewhere else so that the Chamber would appreciate if you could limit
2 your re-examination to this document without dealing with other events
3 than raised by Mr. Tolimir in his cross-examination.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Mr. Janc, having had an opportunity to look at this document, do
6 you consider it accurate and complete with respect to the matters related
7 in it?
8 A. No, not at all, and I already stated that it is not complete.
9 Q. And in your view, does the fact that this document fails to
10 mention -- or fails to mention the Serbian MUP in any way impact upon the
11 validity or the accuracy of the 10 July 1995 order addressed to
12 Ljubisa Borovcanin, where the Serbian MUP is expressly mentioned?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review Mr. Borovcanin's statement,
15 I believe, of 20th February? I believe it's 2002.
16 A. Yes, I have, sometimes ago.
17 Q. I'd like to show you this statement, and I'd like to direct your
18 attention in particular to where he talks about this 10 July order. It's
19 65 ter --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Mr. Vanderpuye is challenging something or proving something which the
23 Defence has not contested. The Defence introduced 1D289 which became
24 Exhibit 129 -- 1D29. I fail to see why is a document being introduced
25 now again which had not been the subject of either examination-in-chief
1 or cross-examination, which is what it should have been rather than be
2 the basis for something else. Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You were referring to the document D129; is that
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly. And that was
6 introduced by the Defence. It is now designated as D129, yes.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye?
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I understand D129 is the 10 July 1995 order.
9 I also understood from the nature of the cross-examination that was
10 carried out by General Tolimir, that he challenges the suggestion in that
11 document, and the conclusion reached by Mr. Janc in his testimony, that
12 the Serbian MUP was -- that the Skorpions unit, I should say, was a part
13 of the Serbian MUP. I think he repeatedly took the position that either
14 there was a deficiency of proof on that point or that was simply not the
15 case, based upon his cross-examination. He suggested that the Skorpions
16 unit was a unit from the RSK, or that they were not subordinated to the
17 Serbian MUP.
18 Now, if he's changed position on that, then I don't see that
19 there is any need to continue in this line of examination, but it seems
20 to me pretty clear from his cross-examination of Mr. Janc that his
21 position has been that there is not evidence that the Skorpions unit was
22 a part of the Serbian MUP which is what I intend to show in the redirect
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, your position on that, and if
25 I recall correctly, you used this document, D129, in your
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's right. Our
3 position is that the word "Skorpions" is not mentioned once in this
4 document, in no place. And I use Borovcanin's report to prove that they
5 had not gone to Srebrenica irrespective of the order. The order does
6 exist. Whether it was complied with, I don't know. He said now during
7 this interrogation -- examination that they had not been in Srebrenica.
8 What is written in the order of the 1st, which was introduced by the OTP
9 is one thing, and whether anything was realised from that order in
10 Srebrenica, that is another matter. Borovcanin does not refer to any
11 unit that participated in Srebrenica.
12 So that is the position of the Defence, that neither the
13 Skorpions nor the MUP of Serbia participated in the events of
14 Serbia [as interpreted]. If Mr. Vanderpuye wishes to contest that, to
15 challenge that, then he can do so. Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, in the events of Serbia? That was
17 page 59, line 9, but I think that was either your explanation or
18 misinterpretation: "... that neither the Skorpions nor the MUP of Serbia
19 participated in the events of Serbia." That must be something else.
20 Mr. Gajic?
21 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] It was said Srebrenica.
22 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter also said Srebrenica.
23 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it might have been a
24 misinterpretation. The exact -- the correct phrase was events in
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We heard Serbia. But
2 nevertheless, Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Vanderpuye was not in the position to put
3 a question. He just called -- wanted to call up this document and didn't
4 start to put a question to the witness on this topic. We shall see how
5 he will proceed. Mr. Vanderpuye.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd asked the witness
7 if he had had an opportunity to review a 2002 statement of, I think it's
8 actually Ljubomir Borovcanin, to the OTP and he indicated that he had. I
9 wanted to show him page 20 of this document. It's Exhibit 65 ter 3283.
10 I think it's already in e-court.
11 Mr. President, I am reminded that I should tender, and I'd like
12 to tender what I used with the witness just previously, 65 ter 5344.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1335, Your Honours.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think we will need to go to page 19 in the
16 B/C/S. Mr. President, this is one of these odd translations where we
17 have the statement of Mr. Borovcanin. In the B/C/S it's recorded that he
18 reads a document in English, so you see the document that he reads out in
19 English and it doesn't appear in the B/C/S transcription. And I'll refer
20 you specifically to where I'm talking about. It's in the middle --
21 actually, it's at line 9. And I want to refer the witness to that as
22 well, the -- I think it's referred to in the B/C/S -- I think it might be
23 right at the top of the document in the B/C/S, that refers to the reading
24 of the document out in English.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Borovcanin does
2 not speak English. And secondly a document is being introduced here
3 which does not arise from either -- which was not the subject of either
4 examination-in-chief or cross-examination. This is introducing a
5 document of someone who has been allegedly convicted. I've said that
6 this does not refer to the Serbian MUP. Thank you. This is a statement
7 from 2002 and it is being read while we are examining an investigator of
8 the OTP, and I think that is inappropriate.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber doesn't know what is going on at the
11 Mr. Vanderpuye.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I can explain it, I think. Pretty easily. What
13 General Tolimir used during the course of cross-examination of this
14 witness is a document that was prepared by Ljubisa Borovcanin relative to
15 the order that he admits that he received on 10 July 1995. And
16 specifically as to the content of that order, which we've all seen, which
17 is D129. What I'm showing the witness is a statement of Mr. Borovcanin
18 concerning the very same order that was made in 2002, and what I want to
19 put to the witness is, A, the content of the order that he admits that he
20 received, and whether the content of the order that he admits that he
21 received is consistent with the order that General Tolimir -- that the
22 document General Tolimir used with this witness on cross-examination
24 General Tolimir -- the document that he used is, I think it's
25 from around the 5th of September 1995, in the very first paragraph that
1 I've just shown, I think it's 5344 -- now it's P1335, in the very first
2 paragraph, mentions the order that Mr. Borovcanin says he received, which
3 didn't contain Serbian MUP. The order itself, as we've all seen, D129,
4 specifically references Serbian MUP. This is a statement of
5 Mr. Borovcanin concerning that order and commenting about when he
6 received it, under what circumstances he received it, which I think is
7 relevant to the question that was raised by General Tolimir as concerns
8 the content of that order.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: As this statement was given by the relevant
10 person who is said to have received this order, you should proceed, but,
11 again, limit it to the authenticity of the previous document.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Mr. Janc, have you had an opportunity to see this statement?
14 A. Yes, I have.
15 Q. And I will direct your attention specifically to line -- I can be
16 more specific than it was before -- it will be line 12 where it begins,
17 "Fourthly." In reference to the 10 July order, Mr. Borovcanin says:
18 "Fourthly, these companies of the joint forces of MUP of
19 Republika Srpska, Serbia, and Republika Srpska, that should be withdrawn
20 from the" -- it says "Trnovska" and then -- "Trnovo battlefield. This
21 should be done during the night and the unit should be gathered during
22 the 11th of July, 1995, until 12.00 in Bratunac in front of the SJB, in
23 front of the public security station, except for the 2nd Special
24 Detachment of police that will start towards, it's not go, but towards
25 its where he orders it to go on 11th of July 1995 during the afternoon
2 Do you see that part there?
3 A. Yes, I see it.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you have the relevant part in
5 B/C/S on the screen?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I don't, Mr. President. And
7 thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was my concern. Mr. Vanderpuye, could you
9 call up, please, the correct page?
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I thought we had the correct page up there,
11 Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, would it be a good idea to have
13 the second break now and you figure out the specific part of this
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: It might be but I think there is a reference,
16 and maybe Mr. Gajic can help me out here, I think there is a reference to
17 Mr. Borovcanin reading this out in English. And it might be at line 7.
18 But maybe I'm mistaken.
19 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in line 7, it says "the
20 translation of the document into English continues."
21 The translation of the document into English continues.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Whatever that means, I think we should have our
23 second break now.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We will resume at quarter past 6.00 and hopefully
1 we will have the right part on the screen.
2 --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, did you find the relevant part of
7 the B/C/S version?
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes and no. No, I have not found it because
9 it's apparently not transcribed in the same way as the English
10 translation was somehow transcribed. However, I have gotten to the heart
11 of the matter and I think I can explain it. It appears that the
12 attribution of line 7 through line 20 in the English, to Mr. Borovcanin,
13 is a misattribution, it should have been attributed to the -- I'm sorry,
14 line 9 through line 20 is a misattribution, it should have been
15 attributed to the interpreter, who was translating at the time.
16 So what we have is the interpreter reading the document, and then
17 you can see the following comments by Mr. Borovcanin, which explains the
18 reference in the B/C/S to the translation continuing. So that's
19 fundamentally what's going on. I don't think it has much bearing on the
20 nature of the questions I plan to put to the witness in any event.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where do you find this part in the B/C/S version?
22 Which line?
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: B/C/S version you will see at line 3, there is a
24 question concerning the RSK, and then if you go down at line 7 of the
25 B/C/S, you will see -- you will see a reference to the interpretation
1 continuing. And that is the reference to lines 9 through 20, I believe,
2 of the English.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Maybe
5 Mr. Vanderpuye is looking for page 34, line 17 and 18, where Borovcanin
6 speaks about those joint forces. These are the two lines where he speaks
7 about them. Let me read:
8 "The mixed company of the joint forces of the MUP of the Republic
9 of Serbian Krajina was in Trnovo and did not act pursuant to this order."
10 Maybe I have been of assistance. I hope I have. Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, was that of assistance? Or was
12 it the other part of the B/C/S version?
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry, Mr. President. It's actually -- it's
14 not of assistance. It's -- it's not specifically what I was referring
15 to. What I'm referring to in this context is the order itself and that's
16 what I'd like to direct the witness to. I think to put it in context,
17 and this will help the Trial Chamber, I think, is that the 10 July order,
18 which is the order that Mr. Borovcanin refers to in the September 1995
19 report, put to the witness by General Tolimir, is the subject matter of
20 this February 2002 statement by Mr. Borovcanin, wherein Mr. Borovcanin
21 provided that order to the Office of the Prosecutor. And so this
22 statement speaks to the nature of the order that he in fact received,
23 that is the subject matter of the document General Tolimir put to this
24 witness on cross-examination.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I suggest that you read the relevant part you
1 want to use with this witness into the record in English so that then
2 Mr. Tolimir receives the translation of that part, and then we will
3 later, after that, see if it relates to that what you are supposing.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Let me start at line 4. This is the investigator, AG, it should
6 Allistair Graham, who says to Mr. Tolimir:
7 "We will have to understand what that means," referring to --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, I must interrupt you.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said "who says to Mr. Tolimir."
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Ah, I'm sorry. Mr. Borovcanin.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think you were referring to Mr. Borovcanin.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much.
14 Who says, referring to the word, it looks like "posebne
15 jedinice," he says:
16 "We will have to understand what that means."
17 The interpreter says:
18 "Not Special Forces but separate of the centres of, again, public
19 security. Those are the regional centres, Zvornik mixed company of --
20 sorry, did I say, of the 1st Company of this Special Police unit, then
21 again mixed company of the joint forces of MUP of Republika Srpska."
22 What the transcript should next read is the interpreter speaking
23 who says:
24 "Of Republika Srpska Krajina, of Serbia, Republika Srpska and the
25 company from the training centre in Jahorina. Thirdly, I appoint for the
1 commander of the MUP units, Ljubisa Borovcanin as the deputy commander of
2 the Special Police Brigade. Fourthly, these companies of the joint
3 forces of MUP of Republika Srpska, Serbia and Republika Srpska that
4 should be withdrawn from the" -- and it says "Trnovos -- Trnoska --
5 Trnovo battlefield, this should be done during the night and the unit
6 should be gathered during the 11th of July 1995 until 12.00 in Bratunac
7 in front of the SJB, in front of the public security station, except for
8 the 2nd Special Detachment of police that will start toward its -- not go
9 but toward its where he orders it to go on 11th of July 1995 during the
10 hours -- during the afternoon hours.
11 "Fifth, the commander of the unit is obliged to get, to contact
12 upon his arrival, to contact the Chief of Staff of the corps, General
13 Krstic, commander of the staff Tomislav Kovac."
14 This is the --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to ask first, Mr. Tolimir, if he
16 received interpretation of that part.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have
18 not received the interpretation. In any case, Mr. Vanderpuye was reading
19 from 1D289 and I was following what he was reading. Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, was -- what Mr. Vanderpuye read in
21 English, was that interpreted to you in B/C/S?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That was not interpreted into
23 B/C/S, but all is there in the document. I was looking at the document
24 so I believe that I've got the right thing. Thank you, because they are
25 reading the order in English and that's all.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, I think you have received the B/C/S
3 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of what Mr. Vanderpuye was
4 reading, but maybe I can explain. What Mr. Vanderpuye was reading
5 corresponds with the text that Mr. Tolimir has in front of him and that
6 is Exhibit -- the exhibit number that was previously mentioned.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The problem is that we must be sure that the
8 accused has received proper translation or whether he has the translation
9 in hard copy in front of him.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have
11 the text of the order, and the interpreter was reading in English, or
12 rather, Mr. Vanderpuye was reading in English and the interpreter was
13 interpreting. Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's fine. I take it that the text we have on
15 the screen of -- on the left side in English read by Mr. Vanderpuye was
16 interpreted to you. If that is the case, Mr. Vanderpuye, you should
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
19 Q. Now, first, Mr. Janc, and I think -- does this correspond with
20 the text, as you recall it, of the 10 July 1995 order which refers
21 specifically to Mr. Borovcanin?
22 A. Yes, it corresponds.
23 Q. And that for the record is -- as General Tolimir has indicated is
24 D129, formerly 65 ter 1D289.
25 I'd like to refer you to the bottom of this page and I think we
1 should be able to find it also in B/C/S, where you will see there is a
2 reference -- a question, rather, by Mr. Graham where he asks
3 Mr. Borovcanin:
4 "Where were you when you received this document, this order, and
5 when did you receive it?"
6 And Mr. Borovcanin responds that he received it, he was in
7 Trnovo, which is the Sarajevo battlefield, and he was there as the
8 commander of the joint police forces in that battlefield or front line.
9 Do you recall having reviewed that?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. And is your recollection that Mr. Borovcanin received this order
12 on the 10th of July 1995 and that the order that he received was in
13 written form?
14 A. Yes, correct.
15 Q. And is the order that he received the one that is in evidence now
16 before the Trial Chamber?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And the order that he received specifically refers to Serbian MUP
19 units, does it not?
20 A. Yes. Also to Serbian MUP units.
21 Q. All right. I'd like to take you, I think, to a bit of a
22 different area.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, before you move to that different
24 area, I have a question for the witness.
25 While you were reading out this part of the statement of
1 Mr. Borovcanin on page 66, lines 13 and 14, you were recorded - and this
2 corresponds with the text itself:
3 "Fourthly these companies of the joint forces of MUP of Republika
4 Srpska, Serbia and Republika Srpska, that should be withdrawn from
5 the ..." and so on.
6 Mr. Janc, have you any idea what he means by MUP of Republika
7 Srpska, Serbia and then again Republika Srpska, as it is written in the
8 English version of the statement of Mr. Borovcanin?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. As it was indicated by
10 Mr. Vanderpuye, this is not actually what Mr. Borovcanin is saying but
11 what is interpreted into English from this 10 July document, and I would
12 say this is what was interpreted by interpreter, and he just interpreted
13 twice Republika Srpska. That's my understanding at least, because
14 I think in a document itself you can see reference to Republika Srpska
15 only once and to MUP Serbia in addition, and what is missing here is
16 I think MUP of the Republika Srpska Krajina, so that one is missing.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: As you're able to read B/C/S, could you point out
18 in which line we find this part, on the right side of the screen?
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's the problem we have here because
20 that's not -- that's not what is on the B/C/S version, and because it
21 just says that the translation continues. And that's the whole part
22 which is missing on the B/C/S, because the translation from the B/C/S --
23 actually, the interpreter was reading the document which was given, this
24 10 July document, order, and the interpreter was translating this order
25 to the investigator into English, and that's why we don't have this part
1 of it into B/C/S -- B/C/S translation. So I can't point it, direct you
2 to the correct line, but as Mr. Vanderpuye indicated, it should be line
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
5 Mr. Vanderpuye.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I would
7 like to tender the statement. I think I can offer a little bit more in
8 terms of its provenance or relevance to this particular part -- aspect of
9 Mr. Janc's testimony which can be found on the following page in the
10 English. I think it will still be on the same page in the B/C/S. At the
11 bottom of the page, you will see, first, Mr. Graham ask a question and
12 then Mr. Borovcanin is answering, and I think that will help clarify why
13 it's relevant to be admitted.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think we should discuss the
15 problem of admission or not at a later stage when Mr. Vanderpuye has used
16 the additional part. Then you will get the floor and we would be
17 interested to receive your comment about the admission of this document.
18 Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I would just direct
20 the attention of the Court to -- it will be line 5 through line 11, in
21 the English, it's page 21, I think, in e-court. It's the same page in
22 the B/C/S. And it reads where the investigator asked Mr. Borovcanin:
23 "What date you received the order?"
24 His answer is:
25 "On 10th July in the afternoon."
1 And following that he asks:
2 "In what form did he receive it?
3 And Mr. Borovcanin indicates that it was in a written form, and
4 he says: "You can see it."
5 And in particular I direct your attention to that because he's
6 talking about the physical order, the 10 July order, that is now before
7 the Trial Chamber. And that's why this is, I think, important in order
8 to explain, one, the circumstances under which the order came into
9 possession of the OTP, and also in terms of its content.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I'm again a little bit confused.
11 In line 8, I can read, LJB, if it is Mr. Borovcanin or the interpreter, I
12 have no idea. And then it reads:
13 "No written form, written orders. You can see it."
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. The question was:
15 "And how did you receive it? Was it in -- was it in this format
16 or was it verbal?"
17 And the answer is:
18 "No, written form. Written orders. You can see it."
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Might be a different interpretation because
20 I don't see after the word "no" a comma.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I understand that. I understand that.
22 I think, however, that the statement itself clarifies that. I know that
23 you don't have the whole thing -- well, you do actually but I've only
24 shown you a portion of the statement because I think this is the most
25 germane part to it, but it explains, if you go to the preceding pages,
1 you can actually see where the document is presented to the investigators
2 and so on, and the whole discourse is about what does it say, which is
3 why you have the interpreter interpreting it for the investigators, the
4 investigators asking questions about whether separate units or special
5 units and so on and so forth, and that explains the circumstances under
6 which the order came into possession of the OTP and also its contents,
7 which actually contradict the contents of the document that was put to
8 the witness by General Tolimir. So that's its basis of relevancy.
9 I think if you'd like an additional showing, given the amount of
10 time that I have left, I'd rather prefer to move on to some other matters
11 which I think are more germane to some issues that were raised during the
12 course of cross-examination, and perhaps I can provide you something in
13 more detail in writing if necessary in order to qualify this particular
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you have read part of this
16 document into the record.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But didn't put a question to the witness on that.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I can put a question to the witness. And the
20 question is as follows:
21 Q. Based upon the references that I've just read into the record
22 concerning Mr. Borovcanin's reference to the 10 July order and its
23 written form, do you know whether or not that order was received during
24 the context of this particular interview in 2002, February?
25 A. Yes. It was. It was provided to the OTP by Mr. Borovcanin. And
1 maybe I can just comment on this observation by Presiding Judge regarding
2 what is written here when it says "no written form, written orders."
3 From the B/C/S version of it, it's very clear what did he say, it's line
4 20, 24, on the other side, where he says, and I'll read it out in B/C/S
5 and it will be perhaps translated to you better into English. It says:
6 [Interpretation] "It says no, no a written order. Here, like you
7 can see it here."
8 [In English] So it's a little bit bad translation on English one
9 but it's quite clear from the B/C/S what he was saying.
10 Q. That's quite helpful. Thank you, Mr. Janc.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the Prosecution has tendered this
12 document. What is your position?
13 Mr. Gajic.
14 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have just one
15 problem with this document; namely, that the translation of it is very
16 poor. The English version frequently does not correspond to the Serbian
17 version, and as far as we know, Mr. Borovcanin does not speak English.
18 So this document could be tendered only after a proper translation of the
19 interview into English has been rendered. In other words, we would need
20 to double check the translation or redo the translation of this document,
21 rather, and only then admit it into the file.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber is not in the position to receive
24 this document into evidence because of -- there are several issues. One
25 is indeed the translation issue. We have spent quite a lot of time to
1 figure out if it is the interpreter reading from the document, if it's
2 the statement of Mr. Borovcanin. The interpretation as we saw just with
3 the last part, namely, and the missing comma which turns the whole
4 sentence into the contrary, this is -- doesn't seem to be reliable.
5 Especially because we have the document, the order of the 10th of July,
6 already in evidence, and in our view, there is no need to admit this
7 statement of Mr. Borovcanin into evidence.
8 Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I just want to be
10 clear, I understand that it's not being admitted and that's fine. In
11 terms of its relevance, however, my use of it was purely to address the
12 5th September 1995 Borovcanin report that was used with this witness
13 which fails to mention Serbian MUP, and the reason why I've offered this
14 is to explain that the document which does mention Serbian MUP was, in
15 fact, the document that Mr. Borovcanin received, which is contrary to the
16 document 5th September 1995 document which doesn't mention Serbian MUP as
17 among the units that Mr. Borovcanin was supposed to receive.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, we have all that on the record.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: All arguments on the record and we can give
21 weight to it at a later stage, without using the document on the screen
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. I will move.
1 Q. You were asked, Mr. Janc, well, on a number of occasions, about
2 what specific documents you may have relied on in making certain
3 conclusions about either the relationship between the Serbian MUP and the
4 Skorpions unit or the Skorpions unit involvement in Srebrenica, and I'd
5 like to ask in particular, for example, you mentioned that you received
6 information that Muslim men from Srebrenica were transported by bus to
7 Trnovo. Can you tell us what that's based on?
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is perhaps a
10 mistake in the interpretation, or one consciously made. He refers to
11 Skorpions and their involvement in Srebrenica. They were never involved
12 in Srebrenica. This is obvious from this document tendered -- proposed
13 to be admitted. Maybe he was -- he meant to say Trnovo, perhaps.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, I meant to say what I said which is that he
16 was asked about that on cross-examination which I think General Tolimir
17 can recall that he did ask about. In addition to that, he was asked
18 about how it was that they came to be in Trnovo. I think I have a
19 specific paragraph or page reference. It's at page 7034 of the
21 "Q. Thank you. We are still talking about information
22 concerning the executions of these six persons in Trnovo, I won't mention
23 their names, did you personally investigate how they ended up in Trnovo,
24 which is 200 kilometres away from Srebrenica?
25 "A. Not me personally but several steps towards this regarding
1 this issue have been done by the other members of the OTP investigators,
2 my colleagues, and there is a statement of one of the individuals who was
3 interviewed who says that these individuals, not only this, but some
4 other individuals were brought from the area of Srebrenica after the fall
5 of Srebrenica by buses and trucks from Trnovo."
6 So I'm asking the witness if he can tell us what statement he
7 relied upon in making that representation.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is a fair question. Put it to the witness.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have.
10 Q. Can you answer that, Mr. Janc?
11 A. Yes. This is based on a statement of the witness, and if I said
12 during my testimony before that they were brought from the area of
13 Srebrenica after the fall of Srebrenica by buses and trucks from Trnovo,
14 it should be to Trnovo instead of from Trnovo.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to show the witness 65 ter 6779.
16 I think, Mr. President, this should not be broadcast.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, indeed.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: And I think we should, with the Court's
19 permission, please go into private session.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We turn into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 7363-7367 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: So we are at the end of our today's hearing. We
19 were too optimistic to expect to finish the redirect by the OTP with this
20 witness today. We have to postpone that for a later stage when the
21 witness will be called again.
22 We have to adjourn for today and resume next monday in the
23 afternoon, 2.15 in this courtroom. We adjourn.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
25 7.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the
1 8th day of November, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.